Anyone used New Bolton farrier service?

[Lieslot]

I'm having a few issues with my boys' feet, which I feel I need to address in a different way then has been done so far.
The one worrying me the most at present is my one boy with "low heel/high heel syndrome" (upright club foot right, underrun & splashed out left). Although not lame at present, the unlevelness seems to cause him shoulder problems, back problems etc.
Circling is a problem, canter leads don't come as smooth anymore and so on.
This horse also has chronic quarter stress lines/cracks, crumbly toe, heels starting to contract, small dish at toe... .
Thank God for the Equithane pour-ins, which I figure is what keeps him going at present, but I fear the question is only: for how long?! :sadsmile:

Anyway, I wish to do this right now and will start with him and then see how the other two are holding up. Although I'd say I have a good farrier, who sees the problems and tries to deal with them, nevertheless things don't appear to progress the right way and perhaps a different approach, another set of eyes might be what is needed.

I read somewhere that New Bolton has developped new technologies dealing with underrun heels and basically any heel problem.
Has anybody used the New Bolton Farrier Service and how was your experience?
I'm contemplating taking him there and at the same time have X-rays done to assist in the shoeing.
I dread the 2 / 2,5hr trailertrip over there, but so be it.

Next question, if I do go there, I don't fancy going there every 5 weeks of course, so has anyone got suggestions on farriers that could cover Milford NJ area and would be willing to tackle the above issues.

Thanks for any reactions. Greatly appreciated, L.

[Janet]

I used Rob Sigafoos before he ever went to New Bolton. He always did a VERY good job, but was notoriously late. I don't know if that is still true.

[Lieslot]

Thanks Janet. Did Rob also do shoes other then the Sigafoos glue-ons?
I have heard about him, but thought he only did glue-ons, for sure I must be having that wrong then. So he's the farrier at New Bolton then?

[Janet]

This was 20 years ago, before he went to PA. Yes, he did "reguar shoes" then- in this case custom made eggbar shoes.

[ASB Stars]

I think that Rob still runs late- even at NBC !

My experience was with a foundered horse, who had a resection at NBC, and the follow up shoeing, etc. They used the mare for testing out some new apparatus- which sounds very much like the stuff they have on our beloved Barbaro right now! Hospital plate, etc.

In any event, last I knew, he was not doing much with anythig other than his glue ons- but I haven't been down in the recent past, so I am sure that there are others who can give you more up to date information.

I will say that for diagnostic purposes, taking a horse down there, and having them evaluated from a lameness standpoint, to radiographs, to shoeing, makes sense. They all work together on these things, and it gives you a better outcome.

[Corey94]

L,

I am blessed with a horse with seashells for feet, which I realize is different that what you're experiencing... I tried everything the blacksmith offered, supplements, different shoes, shoeing methods, etc. and always had trouble with keeping shoes on him in the summer, and his feet always look like h-ll. Anyway, in desperation I made an appointment for a consultation at New Bolton, just to exhaust all options and meet with a different professional. I recommend it, just to have a real expert take a look at what you have, take a history, and make a recommendation. We met with Wendy up there, and she took her time, poked around, and told me what she thought my blacksmith could do differently and what improvement I could expect. She gave me the glue ons as an option, which I was happy to try. In your case, they'll give you an opinion on what you can expect to improve with any corrective shoeing, and almost more importantly, what you can't expect to change. Oh, and I got a bill for only $25 or something, as I recall. Well worth it. Best of luck, no matter what you decide. Corey94

[Lookout]

My horse had problems such as you describe, with a high/low syndrome and accompanying body soreness requiring constant maintenance. I had quite a few expert vets and shoers treating him but it was not resolved with that treatment. It has been resolved with regular barefoot trimming, which was the only way to keep trimming the high heel frequently enough because it grew back by the time the next shoeing cycle came around. Same thing with the underrun heels on the other foot, needed more frequent attention than a typical shoeing cycle. Also the farriers were scared to lower the high heel enough fearing that it would "blow out" the tendon, which it has not done (though with a shoe, who knows). He no longer has any back soreness issues and is sound.

[poopoo]

I don't think Sigafoos is still there - not sure about that though. I heard that the woman (don't know her name) who took his place was an artist before becoming a farrier, which worries me a little. This is heresay though, so don't go just by me. When I worked at New Bolton I saw some of Sigafoos regular shoeing, with nails, and I was not impressed at all. And the glue-ons eventually cause the foot to rot underneath all that glue and adhesive stuff they put on - that I do know is true. The bill will be large too. If I needed glue-ons, I'd have my farrier glue them on from the bottom - much healthier for the hoof. So no, I don't think it's worth travelling 2 1/2 hours to go to New Bolton for shoes. That's just my opinion though. Other people may have had different experiences.

What about Steve Bloom? Does he still shoe in N.J.? That's who I used when I lived there and never had any problems.

[cartera45]

I assumed Sigafoos was still at NBC because he put the shoe on Barbaro that he designed to prevent founder.

[poopoo]

I would call New Bolton and see what the deal is.

[Janet]

I think that Rob still runs late- even at NBC !
10 AM appointment- Arrived at 10 PM.

[reillyshoe]

Boy, it goes to show you, you can be one of the best farriers in the world, work crazy hours to get things done (10 PM is after my bed time) and 20 some years later.....call people back and show up on time is still the most important thing to most horse owners.
Laura Florence is Rob's assistant at Penn. She, like Rob, has a background in art before farrier school, and I can't for the life of me figure why that would be a problem.
I have glued shoes on for as many as 7 consecutive years, and found nothing but strong hoof underneath. Sorry if someone had a bad experience, but bad bad things happen with nails, without shoes, with every type of shoe...

[suniday]

Rob is still at NBC - he is mostly doing research now.

Laura Florence the farrier that is doing the daily work is awesome! I have been taking a horse there since January 2006 for her to work on.

A lot of farriers (and other professions) have had a different career prior to becoming a farrier. I think I remember reading somewhere that the average person changes careers at least 3 times in their work history.

If you take a horse there to be shod/evaluated, you can also ask for referrals in your area. They may or may not be able to help you. In my case, I am over 2.5 hours away and they did not have anyone to refer me to.

[poopoo]

Call me crazy, but 12 hours late is unacceptable, especially if I have to travel 2 1/2 hours for the appointment. Believe me, I know what "farrier time" is - it's like "vet time", and I don't hassle my farrier about time at all, but 12 hours??? And not to say that people don't change careers, I'm a perfect example of that, but for horses' feet I prefer someone with a horse background, with a lot of experience, and someone who knows horses and how they move and act. As you can see, I did qualify my statements by saying they are my own experiences and my own opinion. That's the thing about opinions - you can take them or leave them. As for the glue ons and rotting - my farrier told me that, and I know of more than a few horses whose feet did rot under all of that crap on the sides - and yes, some of them were Sigafoos horses. But then again, that doesn't mean it will happen to your horse. Maybe they have perfected the application process. The one thing I do know is that some farriers charge outrageous prices for glue-ons and the profit margin is high, and I know how much the kits cost too, and they are very cheap.

[Lieslot]

Wow, indeed 12hrs late, yikes! I take it they at least give you a stall to put your horse in for that amount of waiting time.
I know for sure my boy wouldn't stand in the trailer for THAT long.

Anyway, slightly changed the title of the thread. I'm getting positive and negative feelings of the Sigafoos really.
I guess I was thinking they also nailed on there, but not the case. So I'll have to think about whether I'm willing to try the glue-ons or not.

Thanks Suniday, sounds like you are happy with the shoes.

Thanks Lookout, I have indeed tossed the idea of going barefoot, however considering he's a very big an heavy horse, I'm still thinking it's not the right thing for him. Plus I've had lots of bad luck with hoofboots and damaged feet as a result in the past and don't really want to get back into finding the perfect hoofboot.

I'm curious if others have got their horses in Sigafoos and how they are doing with them.

Thanks all for your input. L.

[cartera45]

I asked my farrier about the Sigafoos shoes once - he had them in his truck but said he didn't use them any longer. He is okay with regular glue ons but didn't like the Sigafoos shoes. My recollection is that he had problems with sole and frog ich (my technical term, not his). I'm not sure if he used the copper sulfate packing with them - that would probably help.

[suniday]

I have seen horses shod with the glue-ons for a variety of reasons.

One horse needed a break from nailed shoes. He was thin-walled, flat-footed TB who was being used in a lesson program. He couldn't go barefoot. They only did one cycle of glue-ons. It allowed his nail holes to grow out.

Another horse had an injury to her foot/wall that wouldn't allow nailing. Rob actually worked on her and she was in the glue-ons for 6 months (reset every 5 weeks) and returned to traditional nailed shoes.

My horse that was in glue-ons earlier this year liked the first set. Didn't care much for the second set. Went barefoot for 4 months and is back in the glue-ons until Monday.

From talking to Laura at NBC - she indicated that they do have some horses that they will alternate between glue-ons and nailed shoes for a variety of reasons.

[cartera45]

The Sigafoos shoe is different from a regular glue on shoe - it is designed so there is no sole contact and has a cuff. I don't know why you would need that particular shoe to address underrun heels. I agree with several others who have said it is a trimming issue - not a shoe issue.

[rcloisonne]

I assumed Sigafoos was still at NBC because he put the shoe on Barbaro that he designed to prevent founder.
Didn't work very well now, did it? Along with the brag about how copper sulfate was the latest thing in founder prevention. Did anyone really fall for that drivel?

And they say barefoot gurus are charlatans only the ignorant and misinformed could fall for. :rolleyes:

[chai]

reillyshoe put sigafoos on our pony and I will vouch for them 100%. They saved our Laminitic pony. Thanks, reillyshoe!
Also, the good thing about sigafoos is that they stay on. In snow, mud, etc., we've never had a shoe come off. It is also very easy for the farrier to fine tune them with detachable rails/wedges to help the horse find the most advantageous shoe/angle without removing the shoe.

[Janet]

Call me crazy, but 12 hours late is unacceptable, especially if I have to travel 2 1/2 hours for the appointmentSorry for the confusion. I thought my first post made it clear that this was 20 + years ago, BEFORE he went to New Bolton. He was then based in Virginia. He was, at that time, with Dr. Judith Shoemaker (who also tends to be late, but not quite as much) and it was HER horse, that I was leasing. So I didn't have much choice on who I used.

But THEY were traveling to ME and the HORSE. The horse spent the day sitting comfortably in his stall, NOT on a trailer.

But I had other things I was planning to do that day, and I spent the WHOLE DAY waiting for them.

He did a great job, I agee with that. The horse was recovering from a suspensory injury, and he is still sound, still jumping, at over 30. I am sure the shoeing during the recovery process helped that.

[Lookout]

Didn't work very well now, did it? Along with the brag about how copper sulfate was the latest thing in founder prevention. Did anyone really fall for that drivel?

And they say barefoot gurus are charlatans only the ignorant and misinformed could fall for. :rolleyes:

I am looking for the quote but I can't find it, and anyhow I probably shouldn't reprint it anyway, but Sigafoos actually stated in writing that basically you'd have to be nuts to think a piece of metal could prevent founder because of the mechanical, enzymatic, and metabolic nature of laminitis. I think the only intended point was to equalize the length of his legs. Of course the PR releases didn't hesitate to make that distinction fuzzy.

[Lookout]

Thanks Lookout, I have indeed tossed the idea of going barefoot, however considering he's a very big an heavy horse, I'm still thinking it's not the right thing for him. Plus I've had lots of bad luck with hoofboots and damaged feet as a result in the past and don't really want to get back into finding the perfect hoofboot.

Hi Lieslot,
I'm not sure how much you've investigated barefoot but some thoughts to consider are:
- barefoot not for the sake of barefoot per se but to allow the frequent trimming this type of pathology needs. Initially the fast growing heel needs to be trimmed on something like a two week schedule whcih is just not possible with shoes. This period of transition should be looked at as just that - transtition - and rehab, rather than a permanent state just as for instance if you had a soft tissue injury that was given a certain number of months to recover. A fast growoing heel is a pathology that needs time to correct and heal.
- the trim really should be correct enough so that hoofboots are not a necessity except for maybe the shortest period of time, and certainly should not only prevent hoof damage but encourage better growth
- as far as horse size, there isn't really any correlation between barefoot 'working' or being more or less appropriate for a horse relative to its size. If anything, a shoe concentrates more weight on a smaller area, ie the rim of the shoe as opposed to the horse's weight being distributed over most of the foot without a shoe. Again, a good trim should prevent any such types of problems from occurring.

[PaulBunyon]

If anything, a shoe concentrates more weight on a smaller area, ie the rim of the shoe as opposed to the horse's weight being distributed over most of the foot without a shoe. Again, a good trim should prevent any such types of problems from occurring.
Where do you get this stuff from? The entire sole is not designed to be a primary bearer of weight. That job is reserved for the wall, and argueably the 1/8-3/16 inch of sole located just inside the inside border of the stratum lamellum. It can be easily evidenced that shoes, correctly applied, do just that-- supportthe hoof and distribute the weight in the most equitable and practical fashion to suit the individual horse.

[reillyshoe]

I don't think it was intended to be fuzzy. Horses have become laminitis in every conceivable shoe. Horses have become laminitic with barefeet. Horses become laminitic for many reasons, and what we do to their feet is only part of the equation.
If you put your best example of a well trimmed foot in front of me, I bet I could induce laminitis with enough endotoxins, or if I held the opposite limb in the air for long enough.

[Lieslot]

Well, fire away everyone.
Here is a link to some pictures of his feet in week 4 of shoeing.
http://lieslot.tripod.com/feet_r/
He's on a 5 week cycle.
He was done just last week, so I'm thinking of taking some updated pictures of him and some of my other 2 horses with similar problems and put them on the horseshoes.com bb. And see what critique we get.

My concerns to my farrier are: toes appear long to me, shoes I think are a bit smallish for his feet and why does the hoofwall keep cracking. You can also see the seedy toe in some pictures.
He had just lost a hindshoe that day. Nevertheless his hinds look to me like he's good a bull's nose foot (or whatever they call that), which he didn't have a year ago.
Farrier says that the Equithane pour ins will eventually help the front feet, but that he's got very bad feet as such and there's little more that can be done then what is done.
Hence I was thinking of going with a complete different set of shoes, like going back to toe clips (like he had in the Netherlands) or try the glue-ons.

He's sound, but I question for how long?? :sadsmile:

Or is this not all that bad and am I just being neurotic?

Again fire away, I can take it!

PS. you can see some left over Tuffstuff hoofsealer on his feet, which I did weekly to prevent them from getting too mushy, since last week I changed back to Keratex.

[reillyshoe]

I put on approximately 400 pair of glue on shoes per year. Most of these are Sigafoos shoes. I do not charge exorbatant fees. I use them because they work well, and while occasionally there is some deterioration under the cuff, I find the damage to be considerably less than from nailing. The great majoity of the time the foot becomes much healthier in apearance. If not for the cost, I would use them on every horse (every time).

[LMH]

I would promptly get a new farrier-that shoe job is awful.:(

[JB]

Lieslot, I'd say you need a new farrier :no:

How wide/long are his feet now? They don't seem to be so large as to not fit any of the boots out there.

[ivy62]

Sorry so late in responding but I have found an AWESOME farrier, he is not only timely but very good. We have been dealing with MANY feet issues and he has come to save the day, kinda like a Knight in Shining armour.I am located in southeastern NY state and I am not sure how far you are but he might consider it. Also have you tried Dave Vanderhoof? I understand he is really good and is in NJ. If you want my farriers name let me know. To give you an idea of what this guy is capable of my horse now has 2 Sigafoos shoes and a custom made hospital plate! Pm if you are interested....

[Lieslot]

JB wrote How wide/long are his feet now? They don't seem to be so large as to not fit any of the boots out there.
He does fit most hoofboots, but I ran into such nuissance issues with them, that I figured I'd stay away from them for now.

He's been on & off barefoot behind and didn't cope well with gravel etc, eventhough at that time I used Crossapole.
I tried OldMac's first, but he ended up with badly bruised & sore heelbulbs. Then we went onto the latest Easyboots, but it somehow indented at the coronet band (which on the pictures you can still see the horizontal lines growing out halfway down). Then we tried the Boa boots, which for sure were the best of them all, but the gaiters (even XL) didn't fit him and still got dirt in there, which rubbed his pasterns so badly that we ended up with cellullitis twice. So I'm not saying hoofboots are a complete no-no for him, but after all this, I figured I prefer a more hazzlefree nail or glue-on shoe, of course provided they are fitted well, which at present I don't think is done all that well.

I feared the reply of 'get another farrier'. It doesn't look all that right, does it? Admittedly this is 4 weeks, but nevertheless, in the Netherlands this horse went 7 weeks and it didn't look like that even in week 7.

Question, he's been done last week, do you think I can get a farrier out for a second opinion. Is that done or not done? Obviously I'll pay for the visit and advice. I just don't know if one really does that: call out a farrier for a second opinion. I've done it with vets, but never with farriers.

Thank you all very much for you advice & info.

[ivy62]

You can always get a second opinion. The hoof will grow the direction it is guided so if done wrong you will continue to have issues. Can you tell me more about where you are?

[cartera45]

Reilly, do you use the copper sulphate packing with the Sigafoos shoe?

[ivy62]

My farrier uses Magic cushion with the Sigafoos and we have had no problems. This way there is still frog pressure because my horse has a hospital plate on one hoof.... bad stone bruise and no sole! so we are waiting for it to grow in ....

[Auventera Two]

Wow, those pictures are frightening. Super long toes and underrun heels. I swear to god, why do farriers NOT know how to keep heels and toes under control??? Do they NOT teach you this in school?? :mad:

[reillyshoe]

Reilly, do you use the copper sulphate packing with the Sigafoos shoe?

I do, and not only with the Sigafoos shoes put under almost any pad.

[ivy62]

Reillyshoe were are you located?

[Lieslot]

Ivy62 wrote Can you tell me more about where you are?Milford, NJ, (Hunterdon County - exit 11 off 78). My 'so' commutes into NYC and that takes him about 2 hours, so not sure if a farrier would be willing to travel that distance for 3 horses. Problem is when they pull a shoe, with those distances it may take a while before they can help you out.
Where abouts in NJ is Paul Vanderhoof, that sounds like a possibility?
Else NBC it will have to be, as I can't continue along the current type of shoeing/trimming.

He will go barefoot behind & I'll just let him toughen up with Keratex, so hopefully that'll sort the seedy toe out and being barefoot may help his hinds return to a normal shape.
But front shoes I need to sort. :(

[JB]

He will go barefoot behind & I'll just let him toughen up with Keratex, so hopefully that'll sort the seedy toe out and being barefoot may help his hinds return to a normal shape.
But front shoes I need to sort. :(

Barefoot or not isn't the issue here, it's the trim. You can take his shoes off behind, but if the same farrier continues to trim him, he will only be better off in the sense that the ground is providing some trimming for him (if his environment is such that he is on abrasive ground for enough hours a day/week). You can put Keratex on all day long, but if the trim remains the same, he likely will never get over being tender. Same with the fronts.

[reillyshoe]

Reillyshoe were are you located?
I live in NH, have a shop at Myhre Equine (formerly Rochester Equine Clinic, in NH), and work at several vet clinics accross New England.

[Lookout]

I don't think it was intended to be fuzzy. Horses have become laminitis in every conceivable shoe. Horses have become laminitic with barefeet. Horses become laminitic for many reasons, and what we do to their feet is only part of the equation.
If you put your best example of a well trimmed foot in front of me, I bet I could induce laminitis with enough endotoxins, or if I held the opposite limb in the air for long enough.
Yes, that's the point he was making :rolleyes: No shoe is going to prevent laminitis.

[reillyshoe]

Right. Also, no trim can prevent laminitis. Perhaps with enough research we can reveal what would be the best option in terms of percentages.

[Lookout]

Right. Also, no trim can prevent laminitis.
Not so. If the trim allows the laminae to be the same width up and down the wall, and the wall is parallel to the coffin bone, the laminae will be in a healthy state and tightly suspend the bone from the hoof wall. A shoe does nothing for the health of the laminae, alignment does (which is set up by the trim). I would not use a farrier who doesn't understand the relationship between trimming, alignment, and founder.

[Lookout]

Barefoot or not isn't the issue here, it's the trim.
That's absolutely correct and if the same guy who did this to his feet was trimming the hinds, it's hardly surprising that he wasn't comfortable on them.
This isn't even a real example of "high low" syndrome, it's just uneven trimming. If this farrier can't trim feet evenly you really should not be using him for one more minute.
Also, I've seen the Vanderhoofs work and I'd recommend further checking out their work before hiring them.
Lastly, barefoot is not irreversible, should it not work out.

[Aggie4Bar]

I feared the reply of 'get another farrier'. It doesn't look all that right, does it? Admittedly this is 4 weeks, but nevertheless, in the Netherlands this horse went 7 weeks and it didn't look like that even in week 7.I would say "all that right" is a pretty big understatement. They look bad. Really bad. If you can find someone else to come out and take a look, do it. Then hire him... provided he doesn't tell you the feet look fine.

[reillyshoe]

I have no response for this.
Apparantly the cure for laminitis escaped me Lookout. I defer to your greatness. Clearly, Barbaro would have been better off in your hands.

[ivy62]

There is also a girl who I know that works for Dave who had trimmed Hurdle for quite a while and is very good, she turned him around, the only reason I do not us her now is Hurdle is having custom made shoes and stuff that she does not do and this farrier works with my vet. She may travel for three horses do you want her number? Are your horses good about having their feet done?

[ivy62]

oh I forgot, if your horse has seedy toe there is a great product on the market, that I has used, called clean trax if you want that info too let me know.

[Lookout]

Apparantly the cure for laminitis escaped me
I do not use the words laminitis and founder interchangeably. I wouldn't use a farrier who didn't understand the difference between the two.

[reillyshoe]

When I pointed out that a trim could not prevent laminitis, you responded:

[QUOTE=Lookout]Not so. QUOTE]

I have not mentioned founder, I have only talked about laminitis. When I said a trim could not prevent laminitis, you argued. Can your trim prevent inflammation of the laminae?

[Lookout]

No.

Then again, I don't have horses who only have metabolic issues only in the front halves of their bodies.

Anyway, this thread is not about founder.

[Lieslot]

Ivy62 wrote She may travel for three horses do you want her number? Are your horses good about having their feet done?Great yes, could you pm her number.
They are fine to be shod.
M. , being shod allround, literally falls asleep
R. , is very good about fronts, and good to trim hinds. For shoeing hinds I used to sedate him (not a nasty bone in his body, just needs to put his foot down too often, similar to epsm horse). He will hold it up for a trim, just not for the hammer, -scary hammer :eek: - :). He's got a babylike attitude really, very sweet. Anyway he'll go barefoot behind from now on, so no worries either.
T. , (retired) only shod in front, although difficult horse in general, he has never been a problem with any farrier as I'm always there. He will just stand and pick up, hold up, just as you ask him to.
So I'm not worried about that, they should all be fine for any farrier really.

Yep, I'm aware of CleanTrax. However the lady at Keratex said, right now only to use the Hoofhardener daily and not combine with any other products, so I'll try this for a few weeks and see where this takes me, unless of course new farrier will recommend me otherwise.

Again, thank you all, this has helped me realize that I DO indeed need to change farriers and that I wasn't just being 'neurotic', but things are just plain bad.

EHM, I guess next challenge: how to tell farrier you do not want to continue with him, always a difficult one. Oh well, has to be done.

[reillyshoe]

Can your trim keep the bone from displacing in the hoof?

[Lookout]

Off topic. Not hijacking.

[reillyshoe]

Come on, it's a one word answer. It's worth it if you can prevent one of the most debilitating plagues of the horse world.

[Lookout]

It's not a one word answer, it's not that simple. Do a search on my posts, I have written about it ad nauseum. Plus there is no such thing as 'my' trim.

[reillyshoe]

It is a one word answer, as I am not asking for an explanation.
Can the trim you advocate keep the coffin bone from displacing in the foot?

[Lookout]

Yes.

[reillyshoe]

Then, I again salute you as the savior of horses. None of the laminitis experts in the world-Dr Hood, Dr Pollitt, Gene Ovnichek, Dr Redden, Cornell vet school nor the University of Penn can claim to prevent displacement of the coffin bone in the hoof following a laminitic episode.
And yes, the horse would have clearly been better off in your hands.

[PaulBunyon]

Yes.
quot homines tot sententiae. Parturiunt montes, nascetur ridiculus mus!

[poopoo]

O.K., I retract my opinion - NBC would definately be better than this! You gotta make a change, now. You could try Steve Teichman at Chester County Farriers - he will travel to N.J. for a price. But, you will be paying a price anyway .....

Lookout,
There is no logic to your posts - it amazes me how deficient it is. Reillyshoe knows more in his little finger about laminitis than you will ever know, especially with such a closed mind... Why not try to learn something from people who have been nailing into feet, instead of insisting that this is one of the seven deadly sins? I just don't get you. The more you try to "explain", the more ridiculous you sound! Do you also insist that the world is flat?

[Lookout]

None of the laminitis experts in the world-Dr Hood, Dr Pollitt, Gene Ovnichek, Dr Redden, Cornell vet school nor the University of Penn can claim to prevent displacement of the coffin bone in the hoof following a laminitic episode.

So, what is it that makes them 'experts'? Just curious.

Aren't you glad you baited me with your questions until you forced me to answer? Just so you could give this juvenile response.

[goeslikestink]

cor -- if that was case someone would be blooming rich ---its like finding a cure for cancer--- lamnitus can be controlled and helped with good husbandry, exercise, diet -- and a good trim --- but it cannot be cured--not to that depth-- i always say if a ponys / horse has got it or gets it then you have to beaware they can get it agian-- so good amangement is warranted

[EqTrainer]

Oh my goodness. I didn't read the next two pages but..

that is one of the worst trims and shoeing jobs I have ever seen. Bless your horses' heart for not just laying down, all four feet straight up, until someone fixes it.

I would indeed pull his shoes and keep him barefoot for a while, if you cannot make the commitment ok, but at least until you get this under control. Why barefoot? You can trim every few weeks. IMO he will need to be at least balanced and rerolled every two weeks to get this under control in a reasonable period of time. He could be sound and happy in a few months if you just went all at it.

Then you could have a GOOD farrier put shoes back on him if you desired. Or maybe he would be so sound you would just do boots. But I think correction will take a long time on this horse if doing it with shoes on because the trim is so warped and his foot is so distorted.

[eks]

Rob is WONDERFUL!!!

I used Rob at New Bolton from about 1987 to 1996 for 2 different horses. I fully credit him for making my horse who was an English TB with terrible feet sound enough to compete and win at the 1 star level. He was just getting started with the glue-on shoes when I was there...but I can tell you they did amazing things for his feet...and the best thing about them, is I never, ever had them come off. I also used him for another horse who I evented at the 2 star level and her feet were great with the glue ons...and it is a wonderful feeling going cross country in the rain knowing your shoes are going to be secure.

As far as the lateness goes, people have to realize NBC is a teaching hospital and things do take longer and emergencies do come up. I was not around when the new farrier started so I can't say anything about her...but I would be totally confident in her since she was trained by Rob, who is the best.

It is also nice to be at New Bolton because if there are other soundness issues you are working through with your horse you will have experts there to help you with that too...and coordinate the shoeing.

When I lived in that area, I also have very good results using Vance Glenn and Chris Volk at Chester County Farriers...not sure if they are still there or not. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't think Sigafoos is still there - not sure about that though. I heard that the woman (don't know her name) who took his place was an artist before becoming a farrier, which worries me a little.

???

[reillyshoe]

So, what is it that makes them 'experts'? Just curious.

Aren't you glad you baited me with your questions until you forced me to answer? Just so you could give this juvenile response.

Again, I have no response for this.

Laura Florence (Rob's assistant at NBC) is an excellent farrier. She is very skilled at both glue on shoes and nailed on shoes, as well as being very open minded on the topic of barefeet. We collaborated on an article "Assessing the Strasser method" for the Equine veterinary journal after attending a Strasser conference a few years ago, and she is a great pleasure to work with.
Interestingly, Rob Sigafoos (who also still works at Penn, partially in his lab inventing stuff, partially working under horses) also has a background as an artist.

[Susan P]

I've never personally used NB farrier service but I heard they have a woman that is excellent.

[Lookout]

Again, I have no response for this.

Why not? You used the term experts. What do you mean when you use it? Other than, the people so designated aren't able to solve the problem they're expert in.

[reillyshoe]

Why not? You used the term experts. What do you mean when you use it? Other than, the people so designated aren't able to solve the problem they're expert in.

1. How exactly did I "force" you to answer?
2. If I have to explain how Dr Pollitt is an expert on the topic of laminitis you are either ignorant or are being argumenative.
3. The basic premise is still absurd, as I do not think preventing displacement of the bone is possible relative to the hoof if all of the laminae is separated. If I assume you are well intentioned, this makes you either
a. wrong, but inexperienced enough to not have seen the result of total lamellar separation.
b. wrong, but don't work with radiographs enough to see the displacement occurring.
c. wrong but unwilling to consider the failure of your system.

Finally, this conversation really can't go on until you start documenting your work in a manner that the rest of the world can consider. Take pictures, radiographs, and document cases. I am positive that Dr Orsini at Penn would find a spot for you to present this for peer review at the next Laminitis and Diseases of the Foot Conference.

[Lookout]

Finally, this conversation really can't go on until you start documenting your work in a manner that the rest of the world can consider. Take pictures, radiographs, and document cases. I am positive that Dr Orsini at Penn would find a spot for you to present this for peer review at the next Laminitis and Diseases of the Foot Conference.
Honestly, I don't think it's necessary for me to document my work in order for you to explain how someone who has failed to solve a problem qualifies as an expert.
And don't be so sure about someone challenging the "experts" being so welcomed; Dr. Strasser's unattended lecture at NBC being one example.

[reillyshoe]

You are claiming to be able to solve a problem that the leading researchers and clinicians in the industry cannot. Excuse me for asking for a bit of proof. Strasser does not offer any proof, just a logical train of thought and anecdotes. The farrier at NBC attended her Tufts conference with me. Without proof, hers, like yours, is just another unsubstantiated claim.

[Lieslot]

Thank you everyone.
I managed to get a farrier from just accross the border into PA to view them and make suggestions. His comments were indeed toes too long, long heels and they look like they are 8 weeks into shoeing rather then 2 (right now).

He will come out and shoe them and I will see how that goes.
I'm really stressed out over it and very sad, don't understand why I didn't see this coming.
How quick should I see improvement? 3 months, 6 months? I was thinking giving it 3 months and if still the same then NBC for all 3 of them, what the heck.

I also posted the question on the horseshoes.com bb, but so far the farriers there don't seem to give me much answers, so either they think the job done is not all that bad, or they do not wish to critique another farrier. Dunno, makes me feel a bit insecure as to what to think of their feet now. :sadsmile:

I posted pictures of all my boys up there, I'll put them up here for a while too :
"" DELETED - being re-shod this week :) ""

On horseshoes.com I've asked the farriers opinions on wedges & barshoes, I hope I get some replies :sadsmile:

I guess I need jingles now.

I'm still schooling them in the arena, would you say that's ok, considering the state of their feet, or should I give them a few months off?
Or can I continue to just do light hacking with them?

I know most of you would suggest barefoot right now, but tried stuff like that in the past and as it was an equally bad experience I'm very freightened to try the barefoot option on their fronts right now. My fields are rocky, sloopy and the humidity is nothing compared to what these guys had in Europe and I feel they need a bit of help from their shoes.

Thanks every one. I guess I need a bit of luck with the new farrrier now.

Feeling really down & depressed at this moment :cry:

[poopoo]

I had a horse with long toes, underrun heels, the whole thing - one day I looked at his feet and I said " oh my god, he has elf slippers on". So, I switched farriers. The new farrier added about 4 feet onto his stride length the same day he was shod! So, not to worry, she can be made more comfortable pretty fast. And, don't beat yourself up - this is how we learn about these things. The horse will let you know if she needs time off. I didn't have to give my guy any time off, and I had no idea how bad he was feeling until I felt how good he could feel. It will all work out, don't worry.

[mbj]

Laura Florence of NBC is excellent and very good at teaching you how to do touchups of barefeet.
I also use Chris Volk 717.529.1939 who has always made sure that my guys land even. He is also super about getting a lost or pulled shoe back on quickly,dealing with the occasional abscess, and working with your vet.
Have also used Vance and Steve in the past and thought they did really good work. There really are a number of well-trained smart blacksmiths that go to NJ, so I am sure you can get a good one. Good luck!
As for the Old Macs, sounds like you might have had a size too small. Also I think the newer ones removed that metal in the bottom.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Funny what you remember about a person. Some remember Rob Sigafoos was late. Back when we used him in 1977 or 1978? I don't recall a thing about his work, just that we found he had been shoeing a horse in the indoor arena :eek: (WHAT was he THINKING?) I will remember sifting for nails till the day I die. :no:

[Auventera Two]

Funny what you remember about a person. Some remember Rob Sigafoos was late. Back when we used him in 1977 or 1978? I don't recall a thing about his work, just that we found he had been shoeing a horse in the indoor arena :eek: (WHAT was he THINKING?) I will remember sifting for nails till the day I die. :no:

HOW did he manage to lose all these nails? I don't think I've ever seen a stray nail lying around after a farrier visit. They generally take out the exact number of nails needed per foot, line them up in their mouth or hold them in their hand, apply them all, and then get another set for the next foot. This has been the SOP for every farrier we've ever worked with.

[Fairview Horse Center]

That is true, but there are always a few nails that fall out of the old shoe as they are removed, + all those nail tips that are snipped off of the new nails. Usually one or 2 new nails as well, that may have been a manufacturing defect, or just didn't want to drive correctly. There is ALWAYS a lot of metal after the blacksmiths that shoe here. I keep a magnet on wheels right next to the area to help pick them all up.