avoiding accidentally trespassing?

[philosoraptor]

For those of you who trail-ride off your own farm or ride places other than parks:

How do you handle not ticking anyone off by accidentally trespassing while riding?

My area : a rural area of 50-150 acre farms, individual homes, occasional patches of small woods, and a commercial property here and there all mixed together. Back county roads are windy and without any shoulders. With so many speeders and all the new traffic (lots of development), it's a bit risky to ride on the city/county roads. So it would be safer to avoid the busy paved roads and stick to trails, gravel lanes, and such.

My dilemma: Not all end/start property boundaries are marked or obvious. Some folks don't give clear explanations where their farm ends when asked. Some people never seem to be home to ask. Some properties don't even have a residence; the owner is in another state and it's just a big investment. Sometimes a home is rented by one person, owned by another, but the only person you'll ever see is the renter's girlfriend; how do you easily ask for permission to ride?

Today I was riding through my neighbor's farm with his explicit permission. I went past another cornfield that I thought was his... and a guy came out of his house across the gravel road. First words out of his mouth were "this is private property" not "hello" or "are you lost". I explained the misunderstanding (I was still between cornfield and the gravel lane). I think he was OK with it but I felt really weird to be greeted in such a way.

Does anyone know if you're riding in Maryland on named roads (these would be shared by more than 1 house, usually blue sign instead of green), is it really trespassing as long as I am on the right-of-way and not on someone's lawn? If it is trespassing, do I need explicit permission from every homeowner in the development sharing the lane?

And when you're going from Point A to Point B, what's the best way to make sure nobody gets mad at you? Do any of you actually go down to the county courthouse, pull tax maps for those properties to figure out which house goes with which cornfield or woods, and then get in your car in advance going door to door to ask permission? Do you just ride and take your chances, but approach people to ask if you do see them?

If you're riding and realize you're accidentally on House A's property, how do you ask? I don't want to ride up his drive w/o permission to knock on the front door, but what do I do with the horse? If I am leading the horse up the drive, it's the same as riding him isn't it? Do I leave him tied by the road? :confused: :confused: :confused: How can I knock on the front door to ask permission if I don't have permission yet to come up the driveway? :winkgrin:

Sorry for the dumb questions. I want to learn the right etiquette and not be one of those "bad" horsepeople.

Thank you!
May

P.S. I know my questions seem a little absurd but 2 weeks ago in my county we just had a crazy homeowner shoot a shotgun at a car who U-turned in his private drive. Both people in the car went to the hospital to be treated for wounds and he's in jail now... but it's terrfying to think some people are so paranoid about tresspassers.

[yellowbritches]

I never usually post on this forum, but saw this topic and thought it was timely, as I have the same question! We recently moved and are still learning where we can and cannot hack, introducing ourselves to the neighbors, etc. Shortly after moving I found a set of trails through the woods that bordered one of the cornfields I KNOW we are allowed to ride in. They were so obviously there, and joined nicely to the field that I assumed (yes, I know what assume means ;) ) they were trails that the previous horse people had used. they come near some houses, and a couple just dump right into one yard, which, in the few times I rode back on the trails, I NEVER rode on (turned around as soon as I saw I was coming to an end). I rode on the trails both days last weekend, and a few days ago I went back again to find the trail tied off with a "Private Property" sign strung across it. I was flabergasted, a little peeved (I know property owners have all the rights, but what was the harm in having a couple of horses walk through the woods behind your house?), and a bit sad that it seems I might have ticked off neighbors. But I don't even know who owns the land the woods and trails are on, so I don't even know who to go to to apologize and see if we could get the trails back! And now I'm terrified to ride anywhere were I haven't been exactly told is ok to ride!

Yet another problem with urban sprawl. Clueless city folk move to horse country, then don't want anything to do with horses.

[citydog]

what was the harm in having a couple of horses walk through the woods behind your house?


As I understand it, the harm is that if you had an accident--even if it was your own fault, or no fault--your insurance company would seek reimbursement through the property owner's, which would raise their premiums, and they would, insanely enough, have a liability risk. In theory you (well, probably not you, but you know, some folks ;) ) could (and do!) sue. "They knew horses used those trails, but they put in a sprinkler system right next to it, and when it went off, my horse spooked, I was thrown, I missed six weeks of work and now have chronic pain! They owe me!"

Some states (Vermont is one) have laws that make it less of a liability risk for property owners, which makes folks here a lot more willing to allow equestrians/hikers/snowhoers/x-country skiiers access to trails on their land, and it's good for tourism.

[xring]

Having lived in the country for many years, and being an outdoors person, I can understand people not wanting others on their property. First, there is the liability issue. Then, look how many inconsiderate people will trash your land with litter, or open gates and leave them, or even ride right through your yard after a heavy rain. Being a hunter, and knowing that is becomming increasingly unpopular with people, I believe it is important to respect others rights, especially as pertains to their property. If I don't have written permission, on my person, I stay off others property. It is my responsibility to know the boundry lines of the property I'm on, and if I'm not sure, I don't use that property until I am.

One thing I use to help gain permission is a 'Release of liability' form available from the Ohio Division of Wildlife. I provide this form, signed, to the landowner (not a renter). This form states that I promise to respect the property, not litter, leave things as I found them, and also releases them from liability for any accident I may have. My safety is my own responsibility. It also has my name, address, phone number, and a description of any vehicles I may be driving. Another useful tool is to volunteer to help them with their chores, or when hunting, to share any game harvested. Christmas and birthday cards are a nice touch, as is a neat, respectable appearance and a humble attitude. Can you tell I've been at this a while?

How about public trails? We're lucky, in Ohio, to reportedly have more miles of public equestrian trails than all the surrounding stated combined. With a truck and trailer, one can find all manner of places to ride safely and legally. If you don't have said transportation, look for a riding buddy that does. Contact trail riding clubs and your state Horse Council. Ask your Vet for leads, ask everyone you know.

I know road riding can be the pits. I trust our horses completely, but not the idiots in the cars. Good luck and don't give up.

[arabhorse2]

When I moved to Podunk, I went and introduced myself to the neighbors. The closest was about 1/4 mile away, but I wanted to make sure they knew I had horses.

I asked about where I could and couldn't ride, and every last one of them gave me permission to ride on their land. However, I never ride where someone has a "No Trespassing" sign posted. I figure it's their land, and I'd hate it if someone decided to take it upon themselves to come on my property if that was posted.

There's a huge tract of land that belongs to the local hunt club beside and behind my property, and they've been more than happy to let me use their land. I didn't until I asked, though.

Maybe it's a little more laid back where I live because most of the folks have been there for generations. Besides me and 2 more sets of neighbors who are coming in from Connecticut and New Jersey, everyone else has been there for years and years. And all of us have horses, which goes over really well with the local livestock owners.

[Prieta]

It has been on my mind a lot lately as I do not like riding on roads.

Snowmobilers join a club that works on obtaining permissions from land owners. In the permit letter, they explain that they will not trash the land, will respect the speed limit, etc. Also, they explain about the liability issues ( I don't remember exact wording of it). We agreed to permit snow mobilers go across our land.

Now, I'm thinking that I'd like to do the same thing for horses but will need help to develop a good letter showing that we will not go over crop land, will not sue them for accidents, etc. I do not know if it will be well received by my neighbors......

[CC]

Yes, I do pull tax maps (thay are online although sometimes hard to interpret!) and find the owners or just go knock on doors to ask. I've met some wonderful older residents that way! And not one has denied access.

Thre is one property however, that I have not done that for. Mainly because it has been horse trails for many, many years and the farmer who leases it does not have a problem with us riding through. I know, probably not the best thing to do but I have a huge fear of being denied access and cut off from the reservoir trails.

[tbtrailrider]

I too am faced with a similar, maybe worse problem. There are no good shoulders to ride on here where I live (Kentucky). There is 400+acres within riding distance from me, and I was refused permission to ride there by the owner. He is afraid of liability. Kentucky law protects him completely. all he has to do is put up this sign..

"WARNING

Under Kentucky law, a farm animal activity sponsor, farm animal professional, or other person does not have the duty to eliminate all risks of injury of participation in farm animal activities. There are inherent risks of injury that you voluntarily accept if you participate in farm animal activities."

(4) Failure to comply with the requirements concerning warning signs and notices provided in this section shall prevent a farm animal activity sponsor or farm animal professional from invoking the provisions of KRS 247.401 to 247.4029.

(5) Nothing in KRS 247.401 to 247.4029 shall create a duty for a farm animal activity sponsor, farm animal professional, or other person to give a warning to a participant engaged in a farm animal activity with his own farm animal, or to a participant whom the farm animal activity sponsor, farm animal professional, or other person knows to possess reasonable knowledge of or experience with the inherent risk of farm animal activities, or who has represented to the farm animal activity sponsor, farm animal professional, or other person that he possesses reasonable knowledge or experience with the inherent risks of farm animal activities.


It covers vets, farriers, trainers, pony rides,basically says you cannot sue because you automatically accept the risks.


He still said no....

I used to live in Hunt Club Country, it was AWESOME...I miss it very much.

Cheryl,owned by Banjo, 5 yo OTTB

[county]

I think the best way to avoid being where you don't belong is not to ride somewhere unless your 100% sure you are allowed to be there its just a common sense thing. Before buying this farm I farmed about 30 miles from the Twin Cities here in Mn. It was in the heart of what became hobby farm country many people from the city buying 5 and 10 acre parcels to have horses. I was totally amazed at how rude horse people can be and have no regard for others property. Riding through crop feilds, leaving gates to pastures open, throwing beer cans in feilds, I even had one lady I caught stealing hay off my feilds and her reason was she didn't think it belonged to anyone ( guess she figured it baled itself ). I can see why land owners don't want horses ridden on their property so often the privelage is abused.

[citydog]

The snowmobile people here also go door-to-door getting permission. They have a written contract, bend over backwards to accomodate landowners (time of day trails can be used, speed limits, change of route), and have their own $2,000,000 liability insurance policy.

I'd also remind folks riding on others' land to never ride when the ground is damp enough to leave hoofprints. When I lived in eastern Mass., we lost a key bit of connector trail because some #&*@wits rode through when the ground was sodden, and tore up the lawn.

[alysheba]

Maybe this can help you find approved riding locations in your area. Also, you can call the DNR.


http://www.arabianhorses.org/marketplace/Classified/great_riding.asp

[secretz]

Boy am I glad that someone decided to open the can of worms.

I live in a somewhat rural part of southern California. Although, most of my training consists of pavement. Any training up hills are through an area that's determined as "no trespassing." I've been riding through portions of this area for years and try to make sure there's no damage when passing through these avocado/citrus tree lands. As for gates, if I can't go around them, I just go back since most of them are locked. No one has really made a stink yet, but I don't exactly want to be shot at either, and worry when someone might just pull out their shotgun. :eek:

[Prieta]

Group of riders are the worst.....that does not make me feel good. I've been taking my girls out on rides on our land but we are getting bored with our farm. We'd like to expand beyond our farm...nonetheless, we will be deligent about being invisible and being friendly at the same time. I do not want anymore lands closed up to us, riders.

[Prieta]

Thanks, I feel better now. My daughter and I went riding on our "Pillsbury Doughboy" horses, SillySunny and Charm's Pop just a few minutes ago - boy, what a difference from riding on Abby. It feels so FREE!

[Molly Malone]

here in Colorado, it is up to You to find out where you may and may not ride - and ask permission to cross private land. What I did was get as many maps as I could that showed public and private lands and did my homework - however, we are blessed with A LOT of public land.

I would suggest you either join or form a horsemans council - here is a link to our local one - www.roaringforkvalleyhorsecouncil.com - or check with your state level horse representatives...we have the Colorado Horse Council - both types of groups act as advocates for horse owners, who BTW pump much money into an economy

secondly - write a trail guide to your area if there isn't one - here is a link to a good resource for books - http://www.extendinc.com/twohorse/about.htm - click on maps or books - get people enthused to go out and make deals with land-owners

Unless we stand up and be counted, this situation is only going to get worse as land is chopped into smaller and smaller pieces - mountain bikers and hikers have done great work with getting local authorities interested and committed to trails for them - we can do the same!

Let us Unite!

[katarine]

Just ask, or stick around long enough to know what land sits abandoned, which land gets visited.

If caught, play dumb AND polite and apologetic all at once. I have had one lady go bananas on me, and I was riding on the right of way, not HER land :confused: at a walk. She's nutters. I didn't argue, I just kept apologizing and walking my horse away. Done.

If I 'caught' someone on our place, the very least they need to do is be really really NICE and POLITE and apologize if they are not welcome- not snarky or uppitty. It's mine, I'll share it as I wish- it is no one's right to be there but me and mine.

You can definitely get tax maps and know who owns what. and by the by, don't call and ask if you can 'hack your horses out here' = to nonhorse people, that's jibberish. Speaka da plain ainglish :D

[hastyreply]

This is interesting. I live in Texas, and in a rural area. I am surrounded by farm land and if it's not fenced and there are no crops growing in it I ride around it. Only time I've gone in crops is when I was spooked by traffic and it's a my saftey or the crops. I go in places that have fences down or gates left open. If I'm asked not to ride somewhere I don't. I'm the only person who does ride in this area. I ride a lot along the the one lane county roads. The only gates I ever open are one neighbors, when I take a short cut through his property. I don't do it very often but I've alerted them to cows out and other problems enough time that I don't think they care. They all know I'm the only one who rides around here so I suppose if they have a problem they will let me know. IF I had an accident I would just say it occured on my land.

[tbtrailrider]

tbtrailrider -- I feel sorry for you that the land you mentioned is closed to riders, but...respect the landowner's decision and find somewhere else to ride. Even in the most prestigous hunt country there are landowners who have shut off their land to both casual riders AND foxhunts, despite all the diplomacy measure that can be brought to bear. Riding on private land is a much treasured privilage we can ill afford to trample.


All is not lost, after a bit of driving around today, I think I discovered a route to the place I really want to go...a 1600 acre Wildlife Management Area. Horses are allowed. It's probably a 4 or 5 mile hack altogether with really good shoulder for a third of the way, a small road for a third, and good shoulder the rest of the way. I am not giving up on the 400 acres though, I recently met a fella named Bill who lives near it (adjacent really)who bought his farm from the guy.(That's a whole nuther story,and a good one ) He has permission to ride there, which tempts me to just go and ride there anyway...Bill said he would speak with the landowner, but it's been a month and no word.:sigh:

Cheryl

[LostFarmer]

I am one ot those land owners that have quit letting folks be on my land. When asked I simply say nothing personal but I have had too much trouble in the past with allowing permission.

I found 2 horses staked in my alfalfa field one day. When I approached the owner she said, "This grass better than mine." Hell yes it is better I fertilize, control weeds and irrigate.

My wife and I used to go out of our way to meet and greet the new moveins. To the point of making hundereds of jars of jams and jellies. We would take a loaf of homeade bread (typically still warm) and a jar of jam over and introduce ourselves. We looked at everyone as friends that we haven't met. I spent hours after many snowstorms on the tractor cleaning driveways for people. Most of the time before light and without them knowing who did it. We let many folks ride camp and or cross the land with never a thought. Now we are the grumpy old SOB's that never share. It is because of the twits that have no respect.

We still grant permission and are very generous with the neighbors that we trust, but they MUST prove worthy of that trust.

LF

[county]

I'm really hoping not everyone is serious with their responses to this issue. If so then I can see why theres problems. Its called RESPECT if its not given do not expect to receive any in return. To start with just how does one accidently trespass on anothers property? If you don't own it or have specfic permission to be on it by someone who does then its not an accident you rode onto the property on purpose plain and simple despite what lame excuse you use.

If a land owner doesn't give a mother and daughter permission to ride on their land it doesn't make them some type of evil person it simply means he doesn't want them riding there get over it.

If caught on someones land play dumb? Ya and why not lie as much as you can to them also I'm sure its going to build trust that will help all horseback riders for years to come.

I've owned 100's of acres since 69 and can honestly say I've never had a problem with snowmobilers. They have always asked permission to use our land and every few years come and cut the brush back on the trails they use. I own a gravel pit and only twice have I had dirt bikers in it that didn't ask permission first. I cannot tell you how many times horse back riders have trespassed here but its literally in the 100's. I've heard about every stupid excuse there is why one of my favorites is " well you have horses " thats one to stupid to even reply to.

Just from the few responses on this thread I can understand more why horseback riders have such a bad reputation with land owners. Its called RESPECT way to many do not give it.

There is always the option of buying your own land to ride on that way you can let the whole world on it and do as they please.

[Prieta]

County and Lost Farmer,

I am sorry that you have had bitter experiences and I can totally relate to that. ;) My hubby and I tend to bend backwards for people even though we might not have a perfect understanding of what is going on...we believe in the good; however, we have to protect ourselves. The only thing that I see is how do we determine whether or not this person is trust worthy or not and how they are meeting "general" expectation....we have had no good idea of what is "general" expectation. Now, we know and apply that to ourselves to the others. More often than not, our "rules" from interacting with people are more harsh than we'd like it to be. We'd very much like to change the "rules" but we need our daughters to interpret what those people are saying. I'm still trying to protect them. :no: If we can set examples of how we need to learn to trust the others, we need to begin with ourselves. Most people have hard time seeing that they need to change as well. :/

[katarine]

County no need to get in a twist. By play dumb I mean don't show your ass and act like you belong there. Be humble and apologetic and offer to leave quietly and calmly. That's all I really mean to say. I caught some kids on 4 wheelers on my land one afternoon- and they stupidly tried to turn around and make a run for it- didn't work as I'm much handier on a good QH than they are on that stupid machine- I cut off their escape route and chewed their asses for a) coming onto my land w/o permission and b) trying to flee. They cowed down and apologized and have never been back.

Look, if you are riding in unfamiliar territory, on an obvious trail, and you opened no gates, etc- and aren't traipsing through someone's garden, what the hell. I say go for it. BUTT--- I'm in an area where I'm surrounded by a lot of empty land used only for hunting/timber- so I'm not actively sneaking around and pissing anyone off.

[county]

I had no idea I was in a twist. And spin it anyway you like, i a lie is still a lie regardless of what you call it.

[katarine]

OK so you aren't in a twist, you're just a rude old fart. Pardon my ignorance.

I double checked and can't see where anyone here said let's all go galavanting off through irrigated fields, opening gates merrily along they way, whilst sprinkling beer cans in our wake. Did I miss something? I said be NICE - yes you've trespassed, NO, don't show your ass about it.

I went on to explain that for ME-I'm surrounded by empty timberland, NOT alfalfa fields, NOT hobby farms, NOT farms, period. trees. Lots of trees. The only farms I ride on, I do so WITH permission. Ok I take that back- there's 100 acres or so that recently was auctioned, the gates are open, and no one's there. It's empty (FORMER) cowpastures and I tell you what, County, I'd ride on it tonight if I had a sound critter to sit on.

[DairyQueen2049]

I ride A LOT and I do most of it these days OFF THE ROAD as I was hit by a truck on my horse once up a time - long gruesome story, we both survived - and the first thing I do when I move to a new area is WALK to my neighbors houses and introduce myself "Hi I'm Therese and I just moved here at ADDRESS." I listen for their name and use it in conversation AND WORK HARD TO REMEMBER IT. Note this is BEFORE I ever even dream of riding on their property!!!! BEFORE!! I can't stress this enough.

Of course talk gets around to the horse - and THEN i bring up my desire to possibly ride on their property. I also have with me a WRITTEN document that lists my name, address, how to reach me by telephone, my insurance company address/info and it expressly says that I do not hold them (nor can my insurance companies) responsible for anything that may happen to me *or* my horse should they give me permission to ride there, including death, dismemberment, head injury, etc. due to any reason: groundhog hole, machinery running or not, dogs, kids, downed fence, etc.

I spend a few moments discussing this with them then leave them a copy of the paper. THEY do not sign it, *I* do. The paper also says I know what crops are and that when the fields are planted with what ever I WILL NOT attempt to ride through or around them. Those crops are these folks paycheck. You better believe a ride though them would be costly. (BTW, DO NOT attempt to get this type of permission from any sod farm!!)

I tell them that I'll be back when it is convienient for THEM to discuss it further. And I show up at the agreed time. And request that they walk or drive with you to determine their boundries IF they do give you permission. Sometmes lots are not perfect squares and you could wind up tresspassing!! And do not bring/invite riding pals along UNLESS they too have this form for the property owner. 1 horse is a lot different then 2 or 10!!

This method has worked wonders in many situations (even when other local riders have been told to leave a property, I still have permission). If you want a copy of the form I use email me. (sutphent@michigan.gov) However keep in mind I am not a lawyer and have no idea how legally binding this form is. Luckily I've never had to use it!!

But it has allowed me to ride on many properties I would not have had access to - AND approaching the land owner BEFORE I ever get near the property w/ the horse is the clincher. It shows you DO care and have respect for their property. And stay OUT of planted crops!!

DQ in MI

[county]

katherine guess it all depends on your idea of rude you certainly cover what my idea of it is. And I don't see anywhere or in anyway that I said your riding through feilds etc. I said I thought rather plasinly if your on land that you know for a fact isn't yours, you have no permission to be on it, and you play dumb when caught then your not doing any other horse people a favor by lying about it. People know when your playing dumb, lying, however you want to spin it. Doesn't matter where you live could be in a big city or the middle of no where if your trespassing then thats what your doing if your caught or not has nothing to do with it.

[marta]

our barn sits on a trail system which goes through private properties. people boarding in the barns on the trail system must obtain a membership in order to use the trails. we did. we were given a stack of maps - great...except some are marked w/ the property owner's names, and others w/ block and lot numbers(!!!). how the heck am i supposed to know what block and lot number i'm passing? especially when they have since built 10 more houses in the area and properties got subdivided again. my gf and i spent good 15 minutes trying to figure out where exactly is the easement to continue on. we got lucky but that's it, we just got lucky. i think in our case the trail association could do a better job updating the maps. on the other hand, that's probably a v. time consuming project that no one wants to undertake.
the other problem i've encountered is where exactly does a landowner want you to ride when passing their property. i heard one lady w/ a gravel driveway, doesn't want you on the driveway, rather, she wants you on the grass. but this a.m. while i was passing by a house walking on the grass abuttiing the driveway, the owner hollered for me to use the gravel driveway. okay, i will comply. but rules change from property to property. some owner's post signs such as 'please ride on the edge of property only'. others don't and you'll just have to wait for that embarrassing moment when someone corrects you.

[matryoshka]

Back when I was young and cute, I had no problem getting permission from farmers to ride on their properties. I'd ask them what rules they wanted me to follow. Here are a few:

1. Don't make trails.
2. Stick to the edges of the field.
3. Don't ride when it is wet.
4. Only ride in hay fields when the ground is frozen.

Nowadays, it is very hard to get permission to ride. It seems other, inconsiderate, horse people have ruined it for those of us who understand the rules. It's a shame, too.

When I was a kid, though, if I was riding on a farm where I had not obtained permission, I was often met by a farmer holding a shot gun. It just seems to be the way here in Cecil county. Anyway, I'd dismount, apologize, and ask the farmer if he knew where I could ride. This usually softened them up, and they might even give me permission to ride in one or two of their fields. I never broke their rules.

My parents have a farm with a few acres of woods in the back. My husband and I decided to take a walk back there a few years ago, and we were warned off the property by a hunter! :eek: He asked if we knew it was hunting season. I asked him if he knew he was on private property (he had to cross a fence to get onto it). He was the one with the gun, though. :winkgrin: Housing developments have sprung up on the other side of their woods, and people have taken down fencing to gain access to the property. My parents don't mind if people enjoy their woods, but it would be refreshing if somebody would ask for permission. My dad occassionally gets annoyed enough to want to put up "No Tresspassing" signs, which would be a shame. We've also had people cut down saplings for firewood, and other sorts of problems.

[xring]

we were actaully warned off the property by a hunter! :eek: He asked if we knew it was hunting season. I asked him if he knew he was on private property (he had to cross a fence to get onto it).

Did this guy have permission to be hunting on the property? If so, he was doing you a favor. If not, he wasn't a hunter, but a poacher. Poachers give hunters a bad reputation, just like riding horses on someone's property without permission gives all of us a bad reputation. Rather selfish I think. It's a little more trouble to respect other's rights and feelings, but we shouldn't expect to grow watermellons if we sow thistle.

[matryoshka]

Nope, the hunter didn't ask permission. This isn't very strange, since a lot of people grew up in the area and are used to going where they please to hunt. It just surprised me that he'd warn us off when we came from the farm that owned the property. My parents don't want people hunting on their property, but they haven't posted signs. If there are no signs, they can't be surprised to find hunters there.

We also had a neighbor down the road that moved our electric fence farther into the field so they could use part of my pasture for back lawn. I guess they figured since they were out of the line of sight from the house, we wouldn't notice it. I found it out in a big way one day when they dumped grass clippings over the fence. They thought they were giving the horses a treat. Luckily, I found the horses munching on the grass shortly thereafter. Once I got the horses in, I went to their house and explained that while they meant well, grass clippings can kill horses. They later asked for permission to use part of the pasture for lawn, and my father said okay. They proceeded to park equipment on it, so they lost their permission again.

We have neighbors on the other side who mow about 20 ft into our hay field to expand their lawns, too. We Americans sure seem to feel entitled to use property that doesn't belong to us! Where I live now, there are 3 houses. One house backs up to a nice big field. When the field was sold to a horse breeder, one resident on my street got mad when the new owners fenced in the property. They seemed to think that was a nasty thing to do, as if they owned the view when they don't own the land.

Accidental tresspass can happen when a farmer gives one permission to ride, but the rider isn't totally sure of the property boundaries. I believe that was MayS's original concern. Also, the person she encountered may have been warning her off the neighbor's property, thinking they were doing the farmer a favor. Who knows. I no longer even try to ride around here anymore (I live near MayS) because of the bad reactions I have gotten when asking. I get to hear about all of the bad experiences these farmers have had with horsemen in the past.

[Benson]

, but what was the harm in having a couple of horses walk through the woods behind your house?),
Yet another problem with urban sprawl. Clueless city folk move to horse country, then don't want anything to do with horses.

Yellowbritches,
Holy crap! Have some common, freakin' courtesy! YOU don't pay the mortgage on your free trails, YOU don't pay taxes on them, YOU don't pay the insurance and YOU don't maintain the property. Therefore YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER ON THAT PROPERTY-PERIOD.

I AM a horseowner, who has the taxmap of our entire neighborhood (btw, taxmaps have the address of the property owner). I am also a farmer/landowner who is fearful of losing everything I own and work for to some pin-head who has absolutely no respect for other people's property. BTW, just because someone has enough money to buy land doesn't mean they are clueless city folk. Some of us make our living from the land. Sheesh, you struck a nerve.

[county]

I think this thread has done a really good job showing why land owners have the attitude they do in many cases towards horseback riders. Respect, so many horse people just don't have it and we all pay the price.

[M.K.Smith]

P.S. I know my questions seem a little absurd but 2 weeks ago in my county we just had a crazy homeowner shoot a shotgun at a car who U-turned in his private drive. Both people in the car went to the hospital to be treated for wounds and he's in jail now... but it's terrfying to think some people are so paranoid about tresspassers.

May,

1st... my manager was talking about the guy shooting at the trespassers. Seems there may be other circumstances involved...PT me if you want to hear what she had to say about the "crazy homeowner."

2ndly, I've wondered the same thing about how you go about getting permission to ride on other people's land. I don't know many people in the area and don't know them well enough to ask permission to ride. So, for now I just take our little trail in our woods and loop around the power line trail & come back (of course...I'm just leading my youngsters).

I can see both sides... walking horses carefully around somebody's property when weather conditions are appropriate doesn't seem like a problem. But... I can also see how people would be concerned about the liability aspects and sadly, many people don't have the same care & concern for other people's property that we would have (tearing up the ground, riding through crops, galloping on private property).

I've had problems with people trespassing...

There were the paintballers who were having great fun in our woods without permission. Somehow, I don't like herds of teenage boys carrying "guns" on my property. They drug roofing material & an old bed frame into the woods to use as targets. They left trash... paintball boxes & cigarette boxes & beer & soda cans. Finally, I confronted one of the parents... the kids retaliated & shot up the no trespassing signs and then the family moved & the painballing stopped. The last thing I needed was for some idiot kid to jump out of a tree & break their leg & sue me. I also don't like underage drinking going on.

Then there are the 4 wheeler problems... People who clearly know they are on our property and one set of neighbor's that we thought were friends.

1st... May, you've been to my house... the 1st house on the left as you drive in... Man & his elementary school aged daughter... never asked permission & were riding their 4 wheelers on our property... most of the time they went slow... but they never had asked permission & I was concerned about the liabilty issues of such a little kid on a potentially dangerous piece of equipment. It's a divorce situation & who knows if Mom knows what was going on. It would have poured & been muddy & they were out riding... they didn't care about tearing up our grass or our trail. Then a tree fell down in our woods... it blocked the trail. I was fine with it... I could get around it if I needed to, but I felt it created a nice little block for most 4 wheelers. Well... #*($(( neighbor takes it upon himself to open the trail...without asking & without our knowledge he took his chainsaw down & cut the tree so the trail was opened again. Had my husband not talked to him, he was planning to remove the old farm junk (without our permission) out of one of the gullies... I guess that would enable him to do two things... 1. sell the metal to put money in his pocket & 2. open up a fun place to zoom his 4 wheeler around. Situation finally ended by me calling him & telling him that he did not have permission to be on our property and we could not allow people to ride 4 wheelers because of the liabilty issue.

Then a week ago...I went to the outlets & turned to the left... 99% of the time I go right. I noticed that the big mound of dirt & our field had tire tracks. GRRREAT.... Well, coming home, I found out why... 3 four wheelers (one with double people) were having a grand ol time on our property. These neighbors are in the middle house on the same side as the previous neighbor. Well, I say something to husband... again my concern is the liability issue... you know that they weren't just moseying around our field and you know that the intent with the mound of dirt was to see how fast they could go over it & how much hang time & lift they could achieve when jumping off of it. I personally think 4 wheelers are dangerous... I personally don't like them & the last thing I need is for one of the kids (or their parents) to flip a 4 wheeler on themselves & sue me.

I said something to husband... he didn't like the liability factor or the trespassing factor either & went down to talk to them. My husband is very laid back & I'm sure he politely asked them to not ride the 4 wheelers. (I had been told not to go with him... a wise decision on his part.) The lady took great exception to the fact that we wouldn't let her ride the 4 wheelers on our property :eek: She proceeded to go ape#(($ on poor husband. Like a little kid having a temper tantrum, she complained that I drive too fast (I've never gotten over 25 mph... there is no speed limit, & I'm usually well below 20), that our manure pile is a problem (she's way too far away to be anywhere close to it & as far as manure piles go ours is about as un-stinky as they get). I occasionally will walk a horse down the lane to check mail... she complained about the manure...ironically, I hadn't walked a horse down in MONTHS except I took Willow down that morning... no piles from her.

These are the same people that previously had told me it was okay to walk the horses on the grass so the gravel wouldn't be too hard on their feet & they'd always want to pet the horse whenever I went by. Guess, I found out their true feelings.

So... no more walking a horse down the lane (I'm afraid of what they'll do to get me hurt) and I now drive turtle speed. In return they've promised to stay off of our property... and the next time they do...I'm calling the police... so much for friendly neighbors sorting out agreements in a peaceful manner.

After, my husband returned after talking to them, I took Amber out to work her for county fair... they proceeded to zoom their 4 wheelers up & down the gravel road & did donuts in the cul de sac in front of our house (it's a blue sign, so I don't think there is much I can do). Amber was not bothered in the least bit. Since that didn't get a rise out of my horse, they decided to let off as many firecrackers as they could. At first Amber was fine, but then she got upset & reared. Charming neighbors... These are the same people that had a grand 'ol time with the illegal fireworks over the 4th... poor T was a wreck.

Well... I guess I've gotten off on a little bit of a rant and the 4 wheeler comments are on a bit of a sidetrack... but because of the obnoxious 4 wheeler riders they have ruined it for the rest of them... had somebody came over and politely asked for permission and ridden responsibly, I may allow them to ride (with a written release), but now, I won't be allowing any 4 wheelers on our property.

I don't trust riding horses on a lot of Cecil County roads... people fly & occasionally there are people who intentionally try to scare your horse. I have some good friends with super trail safe horses & I will ride with them on roads, but they are usually very lightly traveled roads.

These friends have permission from all of the property owners to ride. One Christmas, we dressed up the horses & went carroling (sp) & gave the property owners cookies. It was a lot of fun & a goodwill gesture letting them know how much we appreciate them allowing us to ride.

Fair Hill is AWESOME to ride at, but I don't have a trailer & really don't know the trails well, so that rarely works for me. I'd love to get Willow there again & I just backed Remi last weekend, so hopefully, he'll be ready after a bit more work.

I hope it all works out for you & if you get permission to ride over to my house, I'd be game to go out with you ;) Here is a website that may help you find property owners: http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/rp_rewrite/ It gives you the physical address & names of the owners of the property, so you could know the owner's name if you stopped by, you write a letter if you wanted or it should be relatively easy to find a phone number (phone book, searchbug.com, whitepages.com, etc.).

Best of luck! (sorry this got so long)

[GoForAGallop]

Another farm owner piping in here.
I live in an area of western mass that is getting more and more developed...it's to the point where we're one of the largest land owners in the town, and we only really have 100 acres or so. Farmers are selling out, and more.

So we're essentially surrounded on two sides by residential housing, and I am just more and more amazed at how RUDE people are! I have fun "patrolling" on my snorty, flashy gelding, and giving a good talking to to some of these people.

For example...we had one couple park on the street, blatently ignore the NoTrespassing signs, and decide to go for a nice stroll through our farmlands. They weren't in the least concerned when I came riding up on my horse, IGNORING me. Me, practicing my deep breathing exercises, slowly turn around my horse to catch up with them. (Yes...they walked PAST me, chatting, without a word.) "Err...excuse me." I actually hear one nitwit whisper "Is she talking to us?" Well..duh. They slowly turn around, and I ask if they did not see the No Trespassing signs. Well, yes, apparently they did. But...and this is what they actually said to me "We didn't think anyone lived here."

Oh good golly...I knew our fields were something special!! They must plant themselves in nice orderly rows, and some nice little elves must be weeding them too! I told them quite frankly that they need to get the hell off my property, and if I caught them on again, they'd be arrested. I then escorted them to the property, and one actually had the balls to whisper "What a bitch.." They haven't even seen me annoyed, nevermind bitchy!

A main reason for not letting people on my property is that I'm honestly just not a people person. :D Too many bad apples have spoiled the whole lot.

With that said...I do get lonely riding my horse, and honestly, if there was someone near me, and I got along with them, I'd be more than willing to let them ride, with the proper forms, providing that they follow some simple rules.

[Nicker]

We back up on a large nursery that permits horse back riding. Even though it's well known, I still called and asked before hand. I've loved riding on their property and have thanked them many times since(chocolate chip cookies never seem to hurt :)). Unfortunately I've had to put up No Trespassing signs and possibly adding a locked gate where our property meets as the signs are not working. I've had many people ride off the nurseries property, past my no trespassing signs, through my woods and into my ring! I've come home to find people I do not know riding horses(even jumping) in my ring and in my empty pastures. Once while the morons rode they allowed their dogs to chase my horses. :eek: Even with the no trespassing signs if someone is hurt on your property while trespassing you can be held liable. Just not worth the risk for me.
One bad apple can spoil it for the rest. I will not ride on someone elses property without prior permission and consider it extremely rude to do otherwise.

[WildBlue]

I suggest, in the nicest way possible, that the folks who're being 'invisible' instead of getting permission make an effort to find out whose land they're on and talk to the owners. Even if you don't realize it, you will be seen riding in that area by somebody and you will leave signs of your passage, and people talk. The owners might not mind enough to take action, but it doesn't mean they think of you fondly, either.

I grew up in an area where our 80 acres was small. We were on a dirt road, surrounded by farms and old timbered and stripmined land. I rode almost daily as a teenager on the farm, timber, and oil access roads, where I could go for hours without seeing another person. I was painfully, painfully shy, so didn't ask permission when I didn't have to and did my best to be invisible. I *thought* I was quite successful, since nobody told me otherwise or complained to my parents. Years later, I was chagrinned to find out that what seemed like half the county knew about "the blond girl on the big black horse". THANK GOD none of those good ole boys minded, or if they did they worked it out with my parents and I was none the wiser. Now, as an adult and landowner, I'm aghast at how thoughtless and rude I was. I was so sure that I wasn't hurting a fly and that nobody should mind. Man, was I wrong!

Yes, this is a whole different kind of rude from the people who walked though our yard with berries or mushrooms or game they'd taken on our land without permission, or the guy who'd been off-roading argued with my dad that "This is free land!" to which my dad shot back "It wasn't when I paid taxes on it this year!" BUT, even though it doesn't have the same shock value, it's still every bit as rude and disrespectful to the landowner. A pleasant attitude is a good start, but absolutely nothing replaces the courtesy of speaking to people.

There have been some good suggestions here on how to talk to landowners and how to get agreements in writing. I think this will continue to become more crucial in the future, for all recreational users. I will add that if you are approaching a house or meet people out on the trail that you want to talk with nicely, get off the horse. A mounted person is very intimidating and it's easier to keep your horse from crowding the person you're talking to when it's in hand. Leading the horse up to them rather than riding helps to make the horse into a pet and both of you much more approachable (conversely, if the person is scary, stay ON the horse!). It also makes you look a lot more polite and humble coming up the driveway, and it's easier to keep the horse off the grass and to help people pet it safely.

[Reynard Ridge]

We patrol our property regularly and frequently (130 hilly acres adjacent to a public park - luckily also on the ridge line and thus not often used) on foot, on horseback and ATV. We have used local park rangers and police to remove snowboarders, ATVers, bikers and hikers from our land.

Note, "our land." Posted, patroled and paid for by my husband and myself.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY has the right to ride on, sneak around, walk around the edges, traipse through it, picnic or otherwise disturb our peace and serenity without our explicit permission.

To the OP: If you wander over on my property because you have permission to be on my neighbors, I am going to be rude when I find you, not because I don't like you personally, but because, if you have permission from THEM to ride on THEIR land, it is YOUR responsibility to know THEIR boundries. And stay off of mine. Period. I don't like finding people in my backyard - my backyard just happens to be bigger than average. No, I'm not going to shoot you but I am sure going to make you feel unwelcome, 'cause if you come back again, I have to call the police on you and it's a pain in the neck.

Here's my analogy. If you live on 1 acre, I don't have the right to come park myself under your living room window and have a picnic with my children. So, please don't come picnic under mine.

[matryoshka]

What I have learned from this thread is how important it is to volunteer and help out at our local parks where we are allowed to ride. If we outride our welcome at those parks, the only riding areas left will be paved roads. :no:

[BklynCwgrl]

Wow! This is a real eye opener for me. I live in a very horsey community and have always "thought" that any place that isn't fenced is fair game. I follow trails that I know about...and never thought anything of it. There is alot of open space and I never thought anyone owned it. Recently my neighborhood association has formed a committee to establish permanent trails for dirt bikers and horses...hopefully separate ones! I was told that basically all the property is owned property and that whenever I am not riding on an easement of a paved road I am basically tresspassing! WHO KNEW??? :eek:
Most of the folks here don't seem to mind...and the long term residents are aware of who does mind and clue us newbies in where not to ride. Of course more and more folks are moving up here and fencing off their property. I guess I won't be able to retire in my little paradise...but will have to move further out in the wilderness in order to be able to ride comfortably. :sadsmile:

Anyway...I have volunteered to help on the committee trying to establish permanent trails.

[county]

Who knew? Uh I guess anyone with common sense? If someones front lawn isn't fenced would you ride on it?

[county]

Like I've said before and will aggain its called RESPECT its really easy from this thread to see why land owners more and more feel horseback riders do not show any.

[BklynCwgrl]

My dear County...

I am new to this forum. I have posted 22 times.

I thank you for your warm welcome.

[county]

22,222,2222 I really don't see the differance in the issue. As far as a warm welcome I honestly thought the thread was about riding on property that didn't belong to people.

But if you want a welcome then hey " welcome "

[DVM2003]

Nicker --- please call me re: puppy - 630-1805 - just got the PM. I was planning on taking him to the rescue this afternoon - I can keep him a little longer if you are interested - no pressure - just want to talk to you more about him.

Cathy Lombardi, DVM
The Oaks Veterinary Clinic - Eq and Farm Services
Smithfield VA

[Reynard Ridge]

I was told that basically all the property is owned property and that whenever I am not riding on an easement of a paved road I am basically tresspassing! WHO KNEW??? :eek:

Anyway...I have volunteered to help on the committee trying to establish permanent trails.

Hey, BklynCwgrl, welcome! :)

Now, as for the "who knew," well, I understand where County is coming from on this one. Mostly because I get it all the time, too. From my perspective, it is beyond my comprehension that people don't understand that land, in general, is owned, and if you don't have explicit permission to be on it, you are tresspassing. My four year old son understand the concept of "No Tresspassing," so, yeah, I don't get it when people say "who knew?"

For example, my property is clearly, clearly posted - NO TRESSPASSING. We stop people several times a year who say anything from, "The landowner said I could be here," (um, no I didn't :lol: ) to "Well, this is a right of way, isn't?" (um, no, not for you :no: ). So, no, I just don't GET that people don't understand that private property is PRIVATE.

So, sorry if you are offended. But as a landowner, I just shake my head in amazment that people don't understand what seems to be to be a pretty basic concept. Private property is private.

[WildBlue]

Welcome BklynCwgrl,

I'm glad you realize *now*, and I hope you help spread the word.

I want to re-emphasize another reason why most of us aren't going to be thrilled to find yet another person treating land we pay a hella lot of money to buy, keep, and maintain for our own enjoyment as if it's a public park.

There's a grey area in a lot of state laws regarding tresspassing and the landowner's liability. What it boils down to in my state (and this is totally insult on injury) is that under certain circumstances, if someone tresspasses on my land--I.E. is here without my permission--and gets themselves hurt, they can sue ME. WTF, indeed. Even better, one of the things that can give the tresspasser standing in court is if I know, or "should" know, they are tresspassing and I don't make a huge effort to run them off, install fences or barricades, file police reports, etc.

So, yeah, as if I'm not irritated enough at the invasion of my privacy, I could be looking at the source of a lawsuit that'd take away my home.

[tbtrailrider]

I know I will catch some flak for this...in my opinion, there is no good reason, in my particular situation why I should not be allowed to ride on the piece of land I wrote about. It is 400 acres, no one lives there..it is old farmland that will be developed someday. There are farm roads all the way around it and a creek to cross. In Kentucky landowners are implicitly protected from lawsuits due to the fact there is so much "farm animal activity" No one can sue when participating in ANY kind of farm animal activity,due to the inherent risks.
That being said, I have a 100 by 60 lot for my horse, no where to ride except the roads and this piece of land. I ride there. Have 3 times. My horse , a 5 year old OTTB HAS to do more than trot in circles in his paddock. He is too smart and too much horse and WILL cook up some antics to make it fun (for him). I plan on doing CTR in the future, and will be moving when the lease is up next year.
I recently befriended a man and his wife who HAVE permission to ride there, and when it cools down, they will join me, and he has already said (after seeing my horse) that we will trailer to some other places. Sooo, I will take my chances on being confronted...like I said , there is NOTHING on this land, no gates and no signs,,,,so I will ride on...
Cheryl

[county]

One word " RESPECT" anyone surprised land owners don't feel horse people have any?

[DairyQueen2049]

Its quite sad, isn't it?

I know a rider in my area that is forbidden to ride on property I have been allowed on because she simply did not ask for permission to be there. She is a transplanted citiot that knows not what crops are. :no:

It takes a few moments to make lifetime friendships and be good ambassadors - and fewer moments to spoil it for all.

[DairyQueen2049]

Wildhorse - Bwa ha ha!! I was the "little blonde on the brown horse" who thought no one ever saw me either - WRONG! My parents made me ask for riding permission 40 odd yrs ago and they knew of what they required! Back then is was a lot easier for a cute little blonde chile to beg permission and receive it.

Oh yeah, you are visible. You bet you are. And so are your hoofie prints and poo poo piles.

The neighbor I spoke of rode her horse on a local sod farm a few yrs ago and the owner called me and said "I know it wasn't you, this was a shod horse, and yours is bare footed. I just wondered if you might guess who it was." :eek:

[matryoshka]

What is "common sense" to some, is clearly not common to others. No insult intended, believe me. I grew up near Philadelphia. Yards that were not fenced were fair game for cutting through. We never went too near a house, but kids cut through all the time. If the homeowner didn't like it, they'd say something, and we'd avoid them in the future. These people were the exceptions, not the rule. There were also quit a few semi-private places where we could walk an play. This was very common and well accepted when I was a kid.

Moving to the country where property lines are jealously guarded came as quite a shock. In the city, we'd be welcome to use any bit of open land as long as we didn't do any damage. I don't know if it is still the same where I grew up, but that's what I remember.

It is pretty obvious to avoid planted fields. I'd call that common sense. Woods? Who would care? That would have been common sense to me, before I learned better years ago. Nowadays one can't even ride the edge of a field along a road without being warned off.

I can understand the whole liability issue. I can understand wanting people to ask permission to use property. I don't like it, but I respect it.

What I can't understand is insulting somebody on this BB who is expressing surprise that she wasn't able to ride on unfenced property. She didn't mention riding past "no tresspassing" signs. This is not lack of respect, it is lack of knowledge, now corrected through reading this thread. I suggest that those who expect respect first offer it to others.

BklynCwgrl, I've already welcomed you, but here's another. Thanks for posting your thoughts on this topic. I hope the less than enthusiastic response you received on this thread doesn't deter you from posting in the future. This is a good BB, especially the Trail riding forum. I was pretty depressed about the lack of places to ride before I got a trailer. My area was much more horse friendly years ago, and it was difficult to find that times had changed. Now that I have a trailer, I can haul to a park to ride. Problem is, even there, inconsiderate horseman are causing damage to the trails, and it is possible we will eventually ba banned from there as well. I hate going in circles around a ring. It's important to volunteer at these parks and show that horsemen care about maintaining the trails and interacting with others.

[county]

Whats respect to some is clearly not to others. I have no intention or desire to give people who trespass respect first before I expect it in return.

[Nicker]

Whats respect to some is clearly not to others. I have no intention or desire to give people who trespass respect first before I expect it in return.

I tried being polite when I'd find someone trespassing. The absolutely rude responses, outright lies and sense of entitlement I encounter amaze me.
Sure you can ride on my property, can I drive your new car whenever I want? ;)

[hb]

I know I will catch some flak for this...in my opinion, there is no good reason, in my particular situation why I should not be allowed to ride on the piece of land I wrote about. It is 400 acres, no one lives there..it is old farmland that will be developed someday. There are farm roads all the way around it and a creek to cross. In Kentucky landowners are implicitly protected from lawsuits due to the fact there is so much "farm animal activity" No one can sue when participating in ANY kind of farm animal activity,due to the inherent risks.
That being said, I have a 100 by 60 lot for my horse, no where to ride except the roads and this piece of land. I ride there. Have 3 times. My horse , a 5 year old OTTB HAS to do more than trot in circles in his paddock. He is too smart and too much horse and WILL cook up some antics to make it fun (for him). I plan on doing CTR in the future, and will be moving when the lease is up next year.
I recently befriended a man and his wife who HAVE permission to ride there, and when it cools down, they will join me, and he has already said (after seeing my horse) that we will trailer to some other places. Sooo, I will take my chances on being confronted...like I said , there is NOTHING on this land, no gates and no signs,,,,so I will ride on...
Cheryl


Oh my god, that is such an entitlement mentality.

One good reason that you cannot ride on that land is that you do not own it. Another is that you do not have permission.

SO WHAT if the owner is not doing what you consider to be using the property.

You cannot use something that belongs to someone else simply because you want to.

So what that your horse needs more room. You are the one that bought the horse knowing the limitations of your land. Buy a truck and trailer and go somewhere else to ride. Buy more land. But get over your idea that simply because you want to do something you must be allowed to do it.

If this is the attitude you presented when asking permission to ride there, that may be why the landowner gives permission to others and not to you. I would be concerned that someone with such an entitlement mentality would also not take responsibility for her actions and be likely to sue if she so much as got a hangnail while riding on my property. I feel sorry for your new friends, as you may end up losing them their permission to ride if the landowner finds out they are bringing you over.

Regarding the liability, which is it? No way the person can be liable, or they need to go through certain steps such as putting up signage etc.? Why should the landowner put up signs just to make it convenient for you?

People like you, who believe they are entitled to right of way wherever they want to go and who would sneak over to ride on land that they had expressly been told they do not have permission to ride on are the reason that landowners feel the need to fence their property and keep EVERYONE out.

You are the bad apple spoiling it for others. Take responsibility for finding an appropriate place to exercise your horse and get over yourself.

[county]

Nicker, I think the worst one I've had so far was the woman I caught riding across my corn feild and when I told her she had no business being there replied " my father is a dentist and I'll ride where I damn please" This wasn't a kid she was in her 20's. I called the sheriff and let the law handle her ignorant a$$.

[DairyQueen2049]

The problem with riding in woods w/o permission?? Well what about those nice hunters that have guns and bow and arrow? (Of which I am one as well!) And I'd sure hate if it I shot you as you tresspassed in my hunting zone. :eek:

Maybe I also make maple syrup in my woods and those 'hoses between the trees' are actually another way I pay my taxes. Please don't knock those down!

Maybe I raise pheasants and some are loose in those woods. Or I feed the local deer and turkeys for my viewing pleasure and you are scaring them off.

Maybe I have downed fence that will at least peal a shoe off your horse, at worst take off your horses hoofie!! :eek:

Worst of all I may run nekkid thru my woods and you don't want to see that!!
(Apologies to Aunt Ester if she is reading this.)

[matryoshka]

County, I wasn't referring to giving trespassers respect. I was referring to respecting the points of view of fellow BBers. You have a right to defend your property any way you see fit within the law. I have no business telling you how to treat tresspassers, and wasn't trying to.

I'm not somebody who rides uninvited on other people's property. I may have done as a kid, through ignorance of the rules. I have never disrespected b or argued with anybody who warned me off a property. When I've been caught riding the edge of a field along a road, I always apologized and made sure not to do it again.

All I'm saying is that not everybody understands these rules. Sometimes you are dealing with people who don't know any better. If a person argues with you about their right to be on your property, they are in the wrong and being disrespectful. I do wonder, though, whether a polite attitude might get you a little more cooperation than a negative one. Some of the farmers who objected to me riding on their property have become friends. Nice people all around. I even helped them milk a time or two when they were short handed.

My parents have about 30 acres, and they don't mind allowing the residents of the housing development behind them to walk or even ride on the property. They DO mind people taking down fencing and cutting down trees, as occasionally happens. If they didn't want people to walk on their property, they'd need to post signs and enforce them. Otherwise, people assume that you don't mind sharing. Like it or not, that is the prevailing attitude. It's not necessarily disrespectful--more like it is just hard to understand how people would mind others walking on property that doesn't seem to be in use. This is not necessarily disrespect.

[county]

Thats one opinion, mines differant.

[GoForAGallop]

. It's not necessarily disrespectful--more like it is just hard to understand how people would mind others walking on property that doesn't seem to be in use. This is not necessarily disrespect.


But here's my question...how the **** do you KNOW it's not in use? Quite clearly, you haven't asked. (Not talking about a specific situation, nescessarily..) Someone said that they understood about planted fields, but didn't understand about woodlands...but you can grow stuff in woods too. Like, perhaps, mushrooms. And people do farm mushrooms...most in controled situations, but sometimes just out in the woods. And heck, even trees are a crop.

And just because it isn't in use gives you NO REASON to think that you can use it. Heck, one of my neighbors has a little convertible that he keeps garaged and only takes out maybe four times a year. But I can pretty much guarentee that he would be PISSED if he walked in one day to find me starting it up! And I can tell you the "But you're not even using it!" excuse won't get me far! It doesn't matter what the owner is doing with it...he paid for it (and we all know land isn't cheap) and continues to pay for it through taxes.


Another reason people may not want you riding through their farmland....horses spook. We all know this. Some may spook more than others, but ALL spook. And some spooks can be pretty devastating if you take out a whole section of crops...believe me, I know! Luckily for me it was just corn, but in the case of tobacco, or sod, that could be a good chunk of someone's earnings that you just destroyed!

So what if people don't want to share? It's not a communist country, and they have every right not to!

[matryoshka]

I'm not arguing for the right to ride through somebody else's property. I'm just saying that it is not necessarily done with malicious intent. In fact, it is probably rarely done with malicious intent. Damage is damage, though, whether a person intends it or not, and hoof prints can damage anything growing. That is why I don't tresspass.

I guess I was just surprised by the vehemence of the landowners' posts here and the assumption that people are being deliberately (rather than unitentionally) rude by riding where they didn't think anybody would be bothered. I'm not saying the negative attitude it isn't justified. It just shows that people in the world are changing, getting less friendly, more suspicious of others. That's what city's have a reputation for, not rural areas.

I find it sad. :no: Makes me want to keep to myself, which I'm sure a few people on these BB's would appreciate.

[Reynard Ridge]

I guess I was just surprised by the vehemence of the landowners' posts here and the assumption that people are being deliberately (rather than unitentionally) rude by riding where they didn't think anybody would be bothered. I'm not saying the negative attitude it isn't justified. It just shows that people in the world are changing, getting less friendly, more suspicious of others. That's what city's have a reputation for, not rural areas.

I find it sad. :no: Makes me want to keep to myself, which I'm sure a few people on these BB's would appreciate.

Hard to explain it, really. I am friendly, courteous, likeable and in general, a nice person. Unless I catch you tresspassing in my backyard. Which, if you think about it, is fair. I mean, if I were walking around in your backyard, wouldn't you wonder what the heck I was doing there, and maybe even ask me to leave? Or how about if I were leaving ruts by your front door with my ATV. And what if you asked me to leave, and I kept coming back. And maybe brought my chainsaw and cut down a few of your trees. And shot at deer while I was there. And worse, much, much worse. :no:

My opinion of people who tresspass has been earned through the people who have tread irresponsibly and maliciously over what is mine. I was raised by parents who taught me to understand that you ask permission before you use something that isn't yours. Seems others weren't.

And as for property that appears "abandoned," etc. If you saw a car on the street with the keys in it, would you assume that it was available for the taking? I doubt it. That would be stealing, even if the moron who owns it left the keys in it. And so riding on someone's property without there permission "trespassing," even if they are not there to see you. It just is.

My opinion. It's a strong one. Much stronger than I usually post on these boards, as I do like to keep it friendly. But this is a topic that is too close to my heart for me to tread lightly. :no:

[tbtrailrider]

Oh my god, that is such an entitlement mentality.

One good reason that you cannot ride on that land is that you do not own it. Another is that you do not have permission.

SO WHAT if the owner is not doing what you consider to be using the property.

You cannot use something that belongs to someone else simply because you want to.

So what that your horse needs more room. You are the one that bought the horse knowing the limitations of your land. Buy a truck and trailer and go somewhere else to ride. Buy more land. But get over your idea that simply because you want to do something you must be allowed to do it.

If this is the attitude you presented when asking permission to ride there, that may be why the landowner gives permission to others and not to you. I would be concerned that someone with such an entitlement mentality would also not take responsibility for her actions and be likely to sue if she so much as got a hangnail while riding on my property. I feel sorry for your new friends, as you may end up losing them their permission to ride if the landowner finds out they are bringing you over.

Regarding the liability, which is it? No way the person can be liable, or they need to go through certain steps such as putting up signage etc.? Why should the landowner put up signs just to make it convenient for you?

People like you, who believe they are entitled to right of way wherever they want to go and who would sneak over to ride on land that they had expressly been told they do not have permission to ride on are the reason that landowners feel the need to fence their property and keep EVERYONE out.

You are the bad apple spoiling it for others. Take responsibility for finding an appropriate place to exercise your horse and get over yourself.



Please do not make assumptions.....I had the horse before I moved to this acre lot.I lived in Hunt Country where they don't mind you riding through their land as long as you close the gates and don't ride when its really muddy. I do not own, I rent.. I have many animals and rental property is scarce here. I took what I could get at the moment
My friends have never ridden on the property. They are older and semi retired and their horses are mainly pasture ornaments,but they have permission because they bought their house and 15 acres from the landowner.
He does not have to put up a sign, all he has to do is give me permission.No liability. I was very polite and when I was told they would rather I didnt ride on it, due to liability.I let it go at that. It was after that when I met the people who have permission, they said, aw, go ahead and ride him over there, Ill tell him youre a buddy of mine.
Who peed in ur Cheerios this morning?

Cheryl

[hb]

I know I will catch some flak for this...in my opinion, there is no good reason, in my particular situation why I should not be allowed to ride on the piece of land I wrote about.

If you knew you would catch flak for this, why are you saying my cheerios were peed in?

As a land owner, your attitude in your post was enough to really set me off.

Just because you see something that you want to use does not mean there is no good reason for you not to use it.

The landowner told you not to ride on his land, for reasons of his own. You are planning on riding there anyway. This type of behaviour is what makes landowners shut down all access to their property.

Regarding your property and your horse, regardless of when you got the horse and whether you are renting or not, you chose to have that horse, you chose to live on that property, and other people who happen to own property you covet have no obligation to allow you to use their property just because you want more room for your horse.

[GoForAGallop]

It just shows that people in the world are changing, getting less friendly, more suspicious of others. That's what city's have a reputation for, not rural areas.


Well....yes and no. People have always been a bit touchy about their land...it's always been valuable. Afterall, if you were caught shooting a deer on the king's land, you were killed...

And I have every right, really, to be less friendly.....watched the news lately? Read some of the other posts? There are PSYCHOS out there....people who watch properties and people, pinpoint the perfect time to kidnapp/rape/kill. Who's to say that the seemingly-friendly neighbor I let jog on my property isn't just waiting for the perfect oportunity to kill me? I'm not really paranoid....just not naive.

I've had people walking their dogs off leash, and then proceed to show no control over said dogs as they mob my horse, and then threaten ME that MY horse, on MY land, better not kick their dog. So yes, they WILL be kicked off the property.

Unfortunately, IQ tests are not required to own guns. Which explains some of the drunk-off-their-bums people who come tromping onto my property, a wake of beer cans behind them. Do I want these tipsy dim-wits holding a loaded gun ANYWHERE NEAR me when I'm riding, or have my horses turned out??? MOST CERTAINLY NOT! As I'm sure any reasonable horse owner would agree. One of the trigger-happy idiots shot a neighbors dog a few years ago...the poor old man was devastated, and it's really kinda hard to mistake a dog for a bird....

I'm like Reynard Ridge...I'm really a pretty nice person to deal with...I work retail, so I'm exceptionally "good with people". (AKA, good at smiles on the outside, muderous on the inside!) I get along with almost anyone, if given the opportunity. But like her...this is a touchy subject, and the attitudes of some of the people on here have me amazed.

[Wind]

This reminds me of a situation I had this spring with my neighbor. I have a deeded right-of-way through another neighbor's property, then it turns into my property (driveway which goes straight and then has a turn-off to my house). This other neighbor who lives across the lane (which is my property- driveway) seemed to think he had access to it - wrong. One day he comes driving in and is sitting in front of my house looking up at his house (which is up the hill and across the lane (mind you, he never introduced himself or even greeted us) and backed his car up and left. Ok.... Well one day I see a guy and a girl walking down the private right-of-way and down our driveway with a loose dog (I have two horses - one who will go after a dog that chases it and an OTTB that I did not know what it would do with dogs). I asked the people (because I did not know who they were), who they were. The guy just points up to the house where he lives. Doesn't say I'm your neighbor so and so, etc. I then asked, will that dog go after my horses. He said, "I hope not." Bad answer...... I told him, then you need to please catch your dog and put it on a lead. He ended up being a real *ss and my husband told him to get off our property and do not return. After that we put up no trepassing and private property signs all around our property.

It's like mentioned before, some people think they are entitled to do what ever they want and to heck with everybody else. What nerve!!! I would never have the gall to go walking on somebody's land with a loose dog knowing there was livestock there. Better yet, knowing you are walking down a driveway by somebody's house uninvited. Geeezzzz, all the nerve.

[xring]

.
I was very polite and when I was told they would rather I didnt ride on it, due to liability.I let it go at that. It was after that when I met the people who have permission, they said, aw, go ahead and ride him over there, Ill tell him youre a buddy of mine.
Cheryl

Our last place had a well stocked, 2 acre pond. Largemouth bass to 10 pounds, channel catfish to >30", and tons of panfish. I allowed anyone, after they asked permission, to fish there whenever they wanted, as long as they obeyed my rules. I even provided 3 rowboats for their use. It took years and thousands of $$ to set the place up. I never charged anyone to use it. It was there to give young people someplace to go and something to do. The rules were simple:
1) Release anything you catch, except keep all the panfish you want.
2) Clean-up after yourself.
3) Anyone in the boats must wear a life vest, bring your oun or use one of mine, but put it back when done.
4) Pull boats back up on gravel and turn upside down when finished.
5) Allowed to bring no more than 2 guests and they must be told they cannot come back without you, unless they get permission themselves.
6) Stay away from the horses, the caboose, and the swimming pond. ( I allowed use of the swimming pond on an individual use basis)

When I would find unknown, unescorted people there, they would usually tell me they had come previously with someone else and were told it was okay. I would ask who brought them before telling them to leave. The next time I would see the person whom invited the trespasser, I would tell them to leave also. That would happen every couple of weeks. They weren't hurting anything. It was a respect issue. Respect me, respect my rules, or hit the highway.

[DairyQueen2049]

Just *asked for* and rec'd permission to ride from local farm folks in my area. They were all shocked that I ASKED first.

Really, that's the way to do it. :yes: :winkgrin:

[Tom King]

We have a pretty good chunk of "empty timber land" on which and through which I have spent a pretty good chunk of time and change to work on cross-country courses, gallop tracks, and trails. We have a nice manicured grass track under a powerline for a 1/4 mile or so. We don't have many horseback riders come through although we were unloading groceries one day and a girl in a bikini on a horse bareback came up the hill from our cove on the lake one day and didn't even wave. We do have lots of trouble from people trespassing, littering, and tearing up the ground. Once a lady on an ATV with 2 kids in tow on little ATVs came in driving under the powerline on the manicured grass under the powerline. When I pointed out that she was leaving ruts in the soft, wet ground she said, "But we're just riding on the powerline right of way." "Lady, just because the power company has a right-of-way doesn't mean that you or anyone else does."

Once we did have someone stop at the house and ask if they could let their horses come graze on our pastures because, "They are so much better than ours."

Another couple called and asked if they could come ride their horses on our trails that afternoon when the ground was rotten wet because it had been raining for 2 weeks.

I caught a group of 4-wheelers tearing up the new grass on the cross-country course who said, "But there ain't a house in sight!" We also get, "But I thought it was public land."

We have other "empty timber land" not connected to the farm that we are always having people, for various reasons, going through and tearing up. Timber is a crop. Crops are for someone's income.

We have exclusive use of an 85 mile "trail" that starts a couple of miles from our farm. But we'd have to cross other peoples' property to get to the start so we just trailer to a friends place next to it rather than cross other folks land.

County's right about respect. It's becoming a more rare commodity every day. If you don't own it or have permission to be on it, stay off. And even when you do have permission, think about taking care of the land.

And I'm normally a nice, polite, quiet guy too, but if you're trespassing on my land I'll be better armed and riding something faster than whatever you're on.

[siseley]

:yes: ;) ;)

AMEN TOM!!!

Hit nail with hammer square on the head!!

I have 11,000 acres of open land just 1/8th mile away. Soooo everyone figures they can just cross anyones land to go to it. NOT!!
It's a good way to get shot!!

[rustystirrups]

Interesting thread. I live rural, have a lot of national parks to ride in, however come winter these are impassable to ride so we ride lower elevations on BLM land or large ranches that we have written premission to ride on.

The problem sometimes is private land is interspersed on boundries with public land. Riding on someones land without permission will get you greeted with a shotgun, same if I found someone traveling through my pastures. Invest in GPS with a topo map showing public lands and private. Scout the areas in your truck or on foot first to get where you need to be to access public lands. Landowners are much more agreeable when they see you taking strides to respect their property.