Serious question for the Barefoot clique

[reillyshoe]

I don't want this to be construed as an inflammatory question. I am honestly interested in the answers.
Does anyone advocating "barefeet only" for horses wear shoes themselves?

Before laughing it off, consider the following:
1. barefeet in humans is a natural state, certainly more natural than shoes.
2. Much of the world still lives this way.
3. Foot problems, and back problems are very common in people. Look at the amount of advertising for products such as "phase 4 orthotics", Dr Sholes, or the multitude of athletic shoes.
4. I believe barefoot people have won the marathon in Olympic events.

So, if you wear shoes, what is your reasoning? Fashion? (I would be dissapointed if this is the answer)Protection? (human feet will eventually toughen up, they won't be sore for long).
I don't see why the answer should be different for people and horses, at least in terms or theory.

[Pocket Pony]

Hmmm, I think I'll go get a margarita for this one! :lol:

[Huntertwo]

Well, you can't enter many stores without shoes....:lol:

[cosmos mom]

chug-a-chug-a-chug-a CHOO CHOO!!!!!

[Broberry]

Ah, you beat me to it Cosomo. I think the light at the end of the tunnel really is an oncomming train.

[philosoraptor]

So, if you wear shoes, what is your reasoning? Fashion? (I would be dissapointed if this is the answer)Protection? (human feet will eventually toughen up, they won't be sore for long).
I don't see why the answer should be different for people and horses, at least in terms or theory.

I think this is a very good question.

I don't wear shoes in the house at all. I usually don't wear them out in th yard, weather permitting. I've been known to drive shoeless. I do wear them out going places because so many stores & businesses mandate them.

I work in an unconventional professional office building where the building's owner (a millionaire!) comes into work barefoot. A few of the building's tenants also go shoeless when there aren't clients around.

I also live in a climate where it's COLD, rainy, & muddy a good portion of the year. Horses feet don't feel the cold the way my little tooties do! The soil out here is the stickiest clay, and I'd be tracking mud into my home if I didn't slip my shoes off... horses don't live in carpeted homes like people do.

[Lookout]

If they weren't called "shoes" (as they aren't in other languages which call them things like 'hoof iron' or even have a separate word for it), you probably would not be asking the question.

[Huntertwo]

I hear it....!!!;) Must be getting closer..

[Tree]

I don't want this to be construed as an inflammatory question. I am honestly interested in the answers.
Does anyone advocating "barefeet only" for horses wear shoes themselves?

How about a twist of lime with that drink? Lemon maybe? Salt?????


Before laughing it off, consider the following:
1. barefeet in humans is a natural state, certainly more natural than shoes.

Yes, people are born without shoes on their tiny tootsies and horses are born with bare feet too.


2. Much of the world still lives this way.

How much?


3. Foot problems, and back problems are very common in people. Look at the amount of advertising for products such as "phase 4 orthotics", Dr Sholes, or the multitude of athletic shoes.

Are the foot problems a product of going barefoot or a bi-product of wearing incorrect footwear? This point seems to be focused on orthopedics vs how issues developed. I'll take salt with this one.

4. I believe barefoot people have won the marathon in Olympic events.

And they came from Africa and where else?

So, if you wear shoes, what is your reasoning?

I was told to and the signs say: shirts and shoes required or no service.

Fashion? (I would be dissapointed if this is the answer)

Not hardly now that I'm in the work force of hoofcare. Outside of work it is always a matter of comfort. Fashion or trends were something I thought about as a kid and teen....the latest fads.

Protection? (human feet will eventually toughen up, they won't be sore for long).

When working around horses, yes. Otherwise, comfort. If I had time to condition my feet to go bare, sure, they'd toughen up. About the only time I can go barefoot is while on vacation at the beach. Problem is, once my feet can handle the hot sands, it's time to go back home. :(

I don't see why the answer should be different for people and horses, at least in terms or theory.

I can't help what you don't see then. ;)

My barefooted herd members live outside 24/7. I don't. I trim their hooves to maintain their health. They do not go to places which require shoes. They don't have issues requiring orthopedics. Fashion is not a concern for them. They aren't running marathons but if so, their bodies and hooves would be conditioned to do it beforehand. Their hoof capsules provide adequate protection. If they have to go on footing they're not conditioned for they will be fitted with hoof boots (fronts only).

Tree

[cosmos mom]

I used to live in NYC and once, a big ole' city rat about the size of a really fat Jack Russell, oh, excuse me, Parson's Russell Terrier ran across my foot. Boy, was I glad that I didn't subscribe to the new trend of flip flops and business wear. SLURP. CHUG-A-CHUG-A-CHUGA-CHOO CHOO!!!!

[reillyshoe]

Alas, Lookout, would not a rose by any other name smell so sweet? And Tree, I could not think of a more dissapointing answer than "I was told to". The store answer is clever, but I see this group as a bit more rebelious than that.
Come on! you can do better! Surely I am not the first person to ask you all this question?
Tree, why not toughen up your feet?

[Tree]

And Tree, I could not think of a more dissapointing answer than "I was told to".

As a child, geez, if I had a dime for everytime my parents told me to, "go put your shoes on"! I liked to go barefoot as a kid so I had to be told to "go put" my shoes on. I wasn't set on disappointing you, just stating a fact of MY life. It didn't require your approval.

The store answer is clever, but I see this group as a bit more rebelious than that.

I like to be served and really don't think I'd like the exposure to what's on SOME public floor surfaces. Ick.

Come on! you can do better! Surely I am not the first person to ask you all this question?
Tree, why not toughen up your feet?

I don't have time to toughen up my feet. That's why. With full-time hoof work to be done and other risky jobs to also do around the house, "I" need the footwear. My care-free days as a kid are gone. Vacations are few.

Tree

[Lookout]

Alas, Lookout, would not a rose by any other name smell so sweet?
I can see I'm wasting my time...

[reillyshoe]

Lookout, I must have missed your point. I assume you think the two shoes are not analagous. Fair enough, but aren't the arguments for the use similar? Could the arguments against the use of "iron hoof" be analagous to the arguments agaist using shoes?
Several years ago I played basketball against a guy wearing reed sandals. It turns out he was a sneaker developer for a major company. His logic was that shoes, in addition to absorbing shock virbations also absorb energy as we jump, and therefore we would jump higher in sandals. He put his thoughts into practice in his life, and I wondered if any of you did the same. If not, I wondered why not.
Do your shoes affect the ability of your feet to expand under loading? Would you agrue that the rigidity of horseshoes on a dynamic hoof is a problem? Isn't there a continuity to the logic?

[CookiePony]

If I respond does that mean I am in the barefoot clique? :winkgrin:

These are some of the reasons I wear shoes:

social convention ( I can't go to work without them, enter stores, etc.)
I love shoe shopping
my feet get cold easily
I don't like exposing my lovely feet to yukky stuff on sidewalks, etc.

When I was a kid, I used to go barefoot all month at summer camp (except for activities where covered shoes were mandatory like building stuff or milking the goats). I would start out realllly tender and then be running all over the place by the end.

The latest NEW YORKER magazine has an article in "Talk of the Town" about (people) going barefoot. It was inspired by Mike Wallace's appearance on the front page of the NY TIMES with his large tootsies prominently featured.

[Tree]

Several years ago I played basketball against a guy wearing reed sandals. It turns out he was a sneaker developer for a major company. His logic was that shoes, in addition to absorbing shock virbations also absorb energy as we jump, and therefore we would jump higher in sandals. He put his thoughts into practice in his life, and I wondered if any of you did the same. If not, I wondered why not.

How does this compare to metal horse shoes? When I played basketball, sandals were not an option. I have never met anyone who was a sneaker developer for a major company. So, the thought of wearing sandals to play basketball has never entered my mind until now. I don't feel like pondering it at this moment. So, moving along here.......

Do your shoes affect the ability of your feet to expand under loading?

Yes, they do. I tend to prefer work boots which aren't too narrow as those would pinch my feet too much at their widest area. Dress shoes tend to be too confining and therefore very uncomfortable sooner the longer I'm on my feet. The heel height also affects how my weight is distributed on my feet. My work boots have a low heel.

Would you agrue that the rigidity of horseshoes on a dynamic hoof is a problem? Isn't there a continuity to the logic?

I would argue that while human footwear is adjusted while the foot is weighted, nailed on shoes are not. The hooves are always unweighted when the shoes are sized and nailed on. The rigidity of horseshoes on a dynamic foot are a problem when a bare hoof, trimmed so that it could expand when weighted, could not with a rigid shoe applied when the hoof was unweighted. I can see the logic. Can you? I don't agree with the logic saying that the marks the heels produce on the shoe web are due to heel expansion. I do agree that the heels produced the marks/depressions because they moved but via a pivoting action. The hoof acts as a whole and though the last nail is placed at the hoof's widest point, we're still talking about an unweighted application of the nails....the hoof was in its most contracted form. If the whole hoof were able to expand, there should be more than just heel marks to see.

Tree

[Tree]

If I respond does that mean I am in the barefoot clique? :winkgrin:

It doesn't matter to me. ;) I'm enjoying reading the responses.

Tree

[Posting Trot]

I'm hoping that the original post is meant to be kind of silly, all done in the spirit of good humor and collegiality.:D

In that same spirit I would put forward the humble observation that my shoes are not nailed to my feet (nor for that matter are they glued to my feet). I don't wear them to bed and I often take them off at other times of the day as well.

If I have a pair of shoes on that don't feel good, I stop wearing them. I haven't owned a real pair of heels in 20+ years for this very reason. (I got married in flats).

So I think the analogy with horse shoes breaks down pretty quickly.

[Lookout]

Lookout, I must have missed your point. I assume you think the two shoes are not analagous.

Um, you could say that :rolleyes: . For starters. What possible similarities do you see? Materials (expandable/rigid)? Construction? Placement (bottom of hoof/all around and over the sides)? Application (nails/shoelaces)? Removability? Horses foot growing continuously, person's not? Horses anatomy/physiology requiring expansion of foot on weightbearing to facilitate return of venous blood due to lack of musculature below knee/person's - um, NOT? Function of hoof - protection from elements & environmnet (mechanical and temperature)/person- not; shock absorption/no shock absorption. Four legs/two legs (different weight distribution) spend 24 hrs a day on feet/don't - etc. etc. etc.

[JB]

I don't wear shoes in the house at all. I usually don't wear them out in th yard, weather permitting. I've been known to drive shoeless. I do wear them out going places because so many stores & businesses mandate them.

Ditto to all. And, as I think Tree pointed out, have any of you paid attention to the absolute filth of some public floors? :eek: :eek:

I also live in a climate where it's COLD, rainy, & muddy a good portion of the year. Horses feet don't feel the cold the way my little tooties do!
Excellent point. Humans have skin on feet, horses don't. Humans have muscles on their feet, horses don't. Those things on humans can't be exposed to the sort of cold and wet like horses' feet can without negatively suffering for it sooner or later.

I don't particuarly get annoyed each day when I put shoes on to go to work, but I much prefer warm weather when it's comfortable (temp-wise) to wear sandals instead of donning socks AND shoes. Whatever I have on my feet come off as soon as I hit the door, some things get left in the garage. I don't wear uncomfortable shoes for fashion except on very rare occasion, and those are taken off asap. I much prefer sneakers to dress shoes, even flats, any day. I like being able to take shoes off at the end of the day.

[Lookout]

The latest NEW YORKER magazine has an article in "Talk of the Town" about (people) going barefoot. It was inspired by Mike Wallace's appearance on the front page of the NY TIMES with his large tootsies prominently featured. Yeah, that was rather unsavory.

If I were to go barefoot most of the time, what would I do when I was working around horses or riding? The constant adjustment would probably be very painful.

One guy in my trimming class always did go barefoot though even if it was really cold. However, he is from Wisconsin, and of course those people can't feel the cold ;) .

[Buxton Farrier]

If I were to go barefoot most of the time, what would I do when I was working around horses or riding? The constant adjustment would probably be very painful.

You seem pretty militant about barefooting all horses, even though they have to go through very painful longterm and sometimes never ending pain as long as they are barefoot. So why are you not willing to go through the adjustment yourself? I guess its just easier for you to watch other sentient beings suffer to continue your narrow minded one way only agenda and not even put yourself in their position.
Before anyone tries to categorize me as a shoer only. I am very pro-barefoot, but since I am a full care farrier I am not militant about barefoot since it is not the only thing I can do.

[Lookout]

You seem pretty militant about barefooting all horses, even though they have to go through very painful longterm[QUOTE]
No they don't. At least, not when I'm trimming them. I think makes the rest of your "argument" moot.
[QUOTE]
So why are you not willing to go through the adjustment yourself? I guess its just easier for you to watch other sentient beings suffer to continue your narrow minded one way only agenda and not even put yourself in their position.
Before anyone tries to categorize me as a shoer only. I am very pro-barefoot, but since I am a full care farrier I am not militant about barefoot since it is not the only thing I can do.

[slb]

I actually did know a "barefoot for all" person that went barefoot all the time....except of course where she wasn't allowed to go (primarily stores). She would meet us in the driveway in the dead of winter on frozen snow and ice, she handled her large draft cross and her other horses without every thinking of wearing shoes....she went in the barn, the fields and everywhere barefoot. She drove her car that way. I personally never saw in her shoes in the nearly 2 years that I knew her. She did often have bruises/cuts/even broken bones in her feet....but, it never seemed to phase her.:eek:

She truely marched to a different drum. But, the fact that her horses were barefoot, didn't really seem to dictate the fact that she was....it seemed to just be something she subscribed to. This was long before there was a "barefoot movement".

[goeslikestink]

in trianing for judo or karati -etc one of the exercises is to go bare foot to make your feet harder-- so when in combat your defence is stronger--

the problem why people use shoes moreso today is there more rubbish on the floor and no longer safe to walk around bear foot

in judo -- haha as hubby has his own club one of the exercises on a sunday moring was to run the block but becuase of child protection and enivromental issues can not do so no more --- and i think in most things now in sport -- its a no no --

i used to wear schol but dont any more as they slipped of my foot when young and i trod on a a glass bottle cutting my tendon in toes--

i wear decent shoes for work as i have to be suited --so court shoes types
i wear trianers for everyday mund things

and my joddy boots for shows and stuff

but at yard wether sunny or not in shorts or jeans i wear my muck boots dead funny when shorts on but idont care -- why cause they comfy
and i dont wont me trianers gertting grotty and busted up trampsing about up and dwon the muck heap-

but at home go bear foot --

[Rusty Stirrup]

I must admit I haven't read all the replies here. I spent my childhood pretty much barefoot (I must add that they had a hard time strapping me into a bra at first too and I still can't wear an underwire) and since I live in Florida now I'm barefoot as much as possible. I feel more almost closed in in shoes and feel so much better barefoot. I think it's a personal thing. I prefer riding bareback too. Some babies hate to be put in a stroller or car seat. They fight it and you can tell they feel trapped. I keep my horse barefoot because I can.

[matryoshka]

Having recently had one foot crunched by a horse, and the other one bruised badly twice in the last month, I wear shoes for protection, both of the soles and insteps :yes: . I did go barefoot quite a bit while in college, because I went through a real smelly-foot phase (embarassing, I know) and they smelled bad even through the shoes :eek: . I quickly got used to pavement and rocks, no big deal.

I also boot my horse when I ride him. The nice thing about boots is that they can be removed when we are done riding. I think they offer a great compromise for pleasure riding and some types of competition. I don't think they are approved for shows, though, so that is a problem. :(

Although I'm a trimmer, I'm not a barefoot-only believer. I've got several horses I trim who have rotation at the fetlocks. Three of these guys go just fine barefoot. The draft horse with rotation issues, however, may continue to need shoes when he gets over his canker. Why? Because he lands hard to the outside quarter near the toe with every stride. This will be fine on soft ground, but not so good on hard or wearing surfaces. He was barefoot when purchased at the sale, and his feet resembled bananas. Right now he needs shoes with hospital plates to keep the areas treated for canker dry and clean (vet debrided the canker). There was a farrier there who forged bar shoes for him. He did not look happy when he saw how the horse landed on his quarter--right where a bolt was gonna go--but he had bigger problems to worry about that day. I hope to talk to him about it when he resets the shoes.

I also saw another draft horse who had limb rotation at the knees, and she landed hard to the lateral quarters in both front feet. The riding stable tried to let her go barefoot, and she wore her quarters down to nubs, to the point where she quiverd in pain when standing on a hard surface. Her relief was visible once we put shoes on her. Are boots a viable option for a horse that is one of a string of trail horses and cared for/prepped by different people every day? And boots won't help her keep from wearing those quarters while turned out.

So, I wouldn't refuse myself or my children orthodics if they needed it. Nor would I refuse to let them wear proper shoes for a sport like soccer, where traction is essential. I would not do less with my horses. This is a pertinent issue for me, because I want to take one of my OTTBs on endurance rides. He's got very flat feet that can be managed through trimming, but I can't make them concave. Some of the rides have VERY rough terrain, and at the OD, I was shown an Easyboot that had been worn completely through during the ride. This makes me wonder whether a boot would provide enough support for such a ride. I can always dismount and walk if he gets uncomfortable, but I sure don't want to risk laming him.

So, I have several choices:

I could avoid that ride (and other rides over similar terrain).
I could try Easyboots (assuming the ride managers would allow it) and risk having the horse go lame if the boot fails during the ride.
I could try shoes (Kaydence recommends Natural Balance for my boy) and see how he does.My next step is to look into NB shoes and the shoeing protocol, and if I want to use them, work with a farrier who will help me relearn shoeing. I've got the option of pads, etc to protect his flat feet. There are even boots designed to go over shoes to protect the soles and provide traction.

My $.02 :D

Choo-choo! Keep chugging!

[reillyshoe]

I have a picture someone sent me a few years ago from India (I can't figure out how to post it, if someone is willing, I can e-mail it to you). While I was asked to evaluate the horses feet, I can't help but to focus on the farrier's feet. No shoes- rough, calloused, even the shape seems a bit different. Following Wolff's law (tissues react to the stresses placed on it), it seems logical to hypothesize that our shoes affect the stresses on our feet, and therefore affect the shape of our feet.

In my experience with barefoot trimmers (I don't mean to generalize) hoof morphology is a key part in assessing the health of the horse's foot. The natural model of a hoof is often synonomous with "ideal" in trimming concepts.

Of course there are differences between the mechanics of our feet/shoes and that of hooves/shoes (or iron hoof, if you prefer). I assumed that most of you wear shoes. My curiosity is where the breakdown in theory occurs between those who believe a horse should never wear shoes, and those who choose to provide (support, comfort, protection,whatever) to their feet.
Several years I asked Dr Strasser if she thought a horse with a P3 fracture would benefit from a shoe, and she said "no". I wonder if she would be opposed to a cast on her feet? I wonder why she wears shoes at all? This thread is just an extension of that thought.

[matryoshka]

I think it is an interesting philosophical question and discussion. :yes:

I don't think I'd have feet left if I tried to trim without wearing shoes. My foot-crushing happened when I jumped off my horse at a trail ride to assist a rider in distress. My horse spooked and landed on my instep. X-rays said no fracture, but 2 months later it still hurts and I can't keep the foot in a stirrup for long. If they hadn't been padded muck boots, I think I would have heard a "snap" when he landed on my foot. The two injuries to the other foot would likely have been worse had I not been wearing those wonderfully padded muck boots. ;)

My feet are somewhat deformed from the way I sat as a kid. I turned my knees outward instead of sitting cross-legged. This affected my hips, my knees, and my feet. I was able to straighten my legs with excersise, and I forced myself not to walk pigeon toed, but nothing can put the curve back in my foot where it got straightened due to my sitting style. As a result, I lose my toenails frequently from them hitting the ends of my shoes. They just don't turn when they should, so I have to be very careful when purchasing new shoes. It's no big deal, really, but it sure makes me think about how horses' feet can differ from the ideal, too.

My mother-in-law has bunions and misshappen toes from wearing super-high heels in her youth. She also now has rhuemetoid arthritis, so that doesn't help. Her feet are now always painful. That makes me wonder, too. I think bad shoeing and bad trimming can cause serious problems--it's not the act of shoeing or trimming that is the problem. The question for me isn't to shoe or not to shoe, but to find the best hoof-care practioners possible (hopefully, become a really skilled one myself).

Choo-choo!

[Tree]

My curiosity is where the breakdown in theory occurs between those who believe a horse should never wear shoes, and those who choose to provide (support, comfort, protection,whatever) to their feet.

I see no breakdown in theory when human and equine foot structures are different from each other.

Several years I asked Dr Strasser if she thought a horse with a P3 fracture would benefit from a shoe, and she said "no". I wonder if she would be opposed to a cast on her feet? I wonder why she wears shoes at all? This thread is just an extension of that thought.

Did you ask her why she said no? Why wonder when you could've asked her those questions.

Tree

[Tree]

I don't think I'd have feet left if I tried to trim without wearing shoes. My foot-crushing happened when I jumped off my horse at a trail ride to assist a rider in distress. My horse spooked and landed on my instep. X-rays said no fracture, but 2 months later it still hurts and I can't keep the foot in a stirrup for long. If they hadn't been padded muck boots, I think I would have heard a "snap" when he landed on my foot. The two injuries to the other foot would likely have been worse had I not been wearing those wonderfully padded muck boots. ;)

My feet have been stepped on, stomped on while working around horses and even with work boots, it wasn't pleasant. None of the farriers I employed through the years showed up barefooted to work. They wore something on their feet no matter if they were shoeing or trimming that day. I don't run into any that work barefooted now either. So it seems rather ridiculous to think that because I opt for being a trimmer and own barefooted equines that this should some how apply to my own feet. It might not be if I'd grown up in a culture that going shoeless was the norm and shod the exception.

Today I'll be going to a dairy to trim a horse and 2 standard sized donks (guard animals). The last time I went I was trimming the donks in the feed lot area with loads of cow manure about. I'd rather be barefoot in a pond and feeling mud oozing between my toes than cow crap.

Tree

[reillyshoe]

Tree,
Thank you, I was simply looking for an answer, and not looking to argue. If you wear shoes because human and equine foot structures are different from each other, it is as good an answer as any.

matryoshka,
I broke my foot last fall, interestingly while running barefoot. I ended up treating the fracture as I would approach treating a P3 fracture, immobilizing the foot by adding carbon fiber and kevlar saturated with acrylic to the bottom of my shoe. I can't say it worked better than a cast, or even better than had I done nothing, it it hurt less with the stability and healed just fine.

[Huntertwo]

You seem pretty militant about barefooting all horses, even though they have to go through very painful longterm and sometimes never ending pain as long as they are barefoot. So why are you not willing to go through the adjustment yourself?.

How could you possibly say that ALL horses go through a very painful longterm sometimes never ending pain as long as they are barefoot???

That is totally not true! I had a mare who had shoes all around. I started by removing the backs, then the fronts. She had absolutely NO transitional pain.

If it is done correctly and slowly, it shouldn't cause significant pain. If it does, you can buy boots to help them along. Correct, *some* horses cannot go barefoot, but if done correctly......

[Auventera Two]

I actually believe this is a very good question and a very good discussion could come out of it! :yes:

I do believe that human feet and equine feet cannot be compared. The physical composition of each are vastly different. My dog goes barefoot and can work all day barefoot. He goes over rocks, climbs the manure pile, runs up and down the driveway, follows me everywhere, goes on trail rides, etc. but he has never worn protection on his feet a day in his life. But could I do the same? Probably not.

As someone else mentioned, human feet is covered in soft skin - not keratin or thick callusing. The nerve endings and capilaries in the human foot are numerous, and very very close to the surface of the skin. Yes, if you go barefoot enough (and I do it quite often) you do build up a thicker callused sole. I rarely put on shoes to go down the drive to the mailbox or run out to the car. I even do chores barefoot on many ocassions. I walk around the house barefoot, and I prefer to be barefoot most of the time. At work I kick off the shoes and walk around my office barefoot.

Could I run a marathon barefoot? No. The bones in the human foot are extremely close to the ground - less than 1/8 of an inch in some places. The bones in a horse's foot are not that close to the ground, if the hoof is healthy.

Humans are PREDATORS - not prey. Horses are PREY. The human body is not designed for running, flying, swimming, or fleeing. The horse's body is designed for running. And mother nature gave the horse the appropriate aparatus, as a PREY animal, to run and escape danger. This is not necessary for humans.

This is the same kind of comparison as saying that mountain goats live in the mountains without any extra protection from the elements than what mother nature gave them, so therefore humans should be able to do the same. A human could not live in subzero temps with no clothes on and no protection other than what we entered this world with. Why? Because we have all evolved differently. Not every mammal, fish, or fowl is equipped the same. It is unfair to compare species against one another and say if one can do it, the other should be able to as well.

A whale lives in the ocean. Should humans be able to live in the ocean the rest of their lives - in the water - just swimming around? Of course not. Mother nature did not equip us with slime coats, layers of blubber, gills, and the like. We are very different. And we are very different from horses also.

I do agree that humans sometimes place unusual expectations upon horses. Some of the extreme sports we engage them in could be considered "unfair" or "unacceptable" in my opinion. Certain horse sports (and I shall not list them) would be better off GONE, as far as I'm concerned. And then less horses would be forced to wear shoes as a result of these sports.

I do believe that if we are going to demand certain things of our horses, that does not come naturally to them, that we provide the foot protection they need. I do not, however, feel that is necessary in the form of a nailed on shoe. I believe with the technology we have today, we can develop boots or shoes which are not invasively nailed to the hoof, but yet still provide traction, shock absorption, and protection.

I believe that nail on shoes DO have a place in the horse world if needed to treat certain bone or leg problems. I've heard it said many many times - shoes don't fix foot problems. They only fix leg problems. If a horse is born twisted or damaged in some way, or suffers a bad injury, nail on shoes might be considered as part of the treatment of the horse.

But for normal, everyday riding, I feel there are many other better options than a nail on shoe.

[reillyshoe]

Humans evolved as ambulatory animals as well, without shoes. People DO run marathons barefoot, and with time, the human foot DOES remodel, with keratinized tissue (callouses) at areas of stress. These are not hypothetical situations requiring millions of years of additional evolution.
Doesn't the argument sound similar to the ideas associated with many barefoot horse practices? Also, and this does not apply to every barefoot theory, but some DO accept that pain is part of the remodeling process as hooves adjust to barefeet.

[Auventera Two]

Humans did not come into this world with shoes, you are correct! However, humans DID come into this world with cognitive brain development far surpassing any other animal. Humans fashioned clothing and shoes from the beginning of recorded time - we know that humans wore clothing and shoes. We developed tools, and hunted, etc.

Animals (horses) did not have this cognitive ability. As a result, the horse continued to evolve into a form that best suited his ability to thrive and survive. He evolved from a toed creature to one with hooves. The evolution process demanded that the toes were not sufficient to carry him comfortably, efficiently, etc. so hooves were formed.

For those who believe in intelligent creation, they can say that the horse was created with hooves because god (whichever one you subscribe to, thus not capitalized) gave the horse the proper equipment to survive and thrive.

Humans truly are a breed apart due to the intelligence and brain capacity that many other animals simply do not have. If they did, THEY would be at the top of the food chain and they would be making clothes and shoes, and tools.

If humans did not evolve, and if they were prey animals, we would have adapted and evolved accordingly so that we WOULD be going barefoot.

[reillyshoe]

I'm not sure if I get the cognitive development side of your response. Are you saying that we influenced our evolution by wearing shoes? Haven't we influenced the evolution of horses by putting shes on them? Does it matter who thought of it?
Also, pre-historic man did not wear shoes, certainly not in all situations. We had to both chase our food, and run away from bigger, scarier predators- without shoes. Remember there are plenty of people in the world today who do not wear shoes...

[Auventera Two]

All I'm saying is that it is not fair to compare the feet of horses with the feet of humans. They are two completely different species with different ideals, different habits, different evolutionary histories, and different jobs.

This is for the same reason that you cannot compare the feet of elephants to the feet of cats, or the foot of a snail to the feet of a lizzard, etc.

[Aggie4Bar]

I'll take mine on the rocks with no salt. ;)

But as for a serious answer, I would say it's largely cultural. People started putting shoes on horses to counteract the wear and tear associated with travel (war horses). It's since become almost a norm. I certainly know several people who believe horses must have shoes, and I've been asked the question about my young horses, "When will they be old enough to wear shoes?" :lol: I prefer to go barefoot myself, but it's rough going on hot, artificial surfaces. It's also not culturally acceptable in most establishments. Hence, I have more shoes than I need, but this is also a by-product of having XX chromosomes. :D Theoretically, you could have asked, "Why do you wear clothes?" since, in addition to be born barefoot, we all entered the world naked. But I, for one, am SO GLAD clothing is a norm b/c there are very few people I'd like to see without it. :p

[Auventera Two]

Oh come on! George Clooney! It would be worth it to suffer through all the others, just to see him. :D :winkgrin:

[LMH]

Oh good grief what a silly concept!:lol:

Shall we take this further? Why do I wear a bra and panties? I never made my mare where them when I had her.

Why wear clothes at all! Fly be free!:lol:

[llsc]

I agree that most people probably could go around in their normal routines barefoot, but for any long distance walking or over rough terrain we would need some sort of boot, just as a barefoot horse would need.

When they found the "Ice Man" mummy from 5,000 years ago, he was wearing boots made of leather and fur tied to his feet.

[egontoast]

So I guess some of the barefooters would have no problem with shoes as long as the horse could remove them while in the barn.:lol:

[Huntertwo]

This is a totally silly comparison... So, I'll leave it as....Have you ever heard of Ringworm, Tetanus, and a host of other crap you can pickup walking barefoot and of all places, a barn?

[Auventera Two]

So I guess some of the barefooters would have no problem with shoes as long as the horse could remove them while in the barn.:lol:

That is absolutely correct! I prefer hoof boots because you strap them on the feet and remove them after the ride is over. There is no damage done to the white line or the hoof horn, the horses's feet were protected while riding, and the foot is now back to barefoot so it reaps the appropriate benefits.

If a horse absolutely needs protection on the feet 24/7 due to injury, disease, etc. then I would consider a nail on shoe and pad. But I do consider nail on shoes and/or pads to be strictly therapeutic for treating a specific injury or disease - not as a long term solution to "sore" feet.

[goeslikestink]

we choose to wear shoes or trianers whater to protect our feet from germs on the streets etc no way i be with out me foot other than indoors

and white socks and big huge sandals on men is a turn off-- haha

come girls say iam wrong ---

[Lookout]

I used to live in NYC and once, a big ole' city rat about the size of a really fat Jack Russell, oh, excuse me, Parson's Russell Terrier ran across my foot. Boy, was I glad that I didn't subscribe to the new trend of flip flops and business wear.
As I do, currently, and I wouldn't dream of going out there barefoot especially after seeing the used condom one day, and the dead flattened innards all over mouse the next. And the SUBWAY?!? :eek: :eek: :eek: Forget about it! Definiely need urban foot armor there.
Plus, I have a shoe fetish and definitely have my Imelda Marcos tendencies, so maybe working with horse's feet was pre-ordained, or there is definitely some irony in that. Anyhow, those hoof-irons aren't very stylish at all.

[Lookout]

Several years I asked Dr Strasser if she thought a horse with a P3 fracture would benefit from a shoe, and she said "no". I wonder if she would be opposed to a cast on her feet? I wonder why she wears shoes at all? This thread is just an extension of that thought.
What? And you didn't get the story of her broken foot? She did not in fact where a cast. She described hobblind on crutches and being expected to take care of her family and eveyrthing else as normal with no reprieve, and massaged it frequently, and in short time was putting weight on it, and it was pretty much healed in about half the time it would have taken with a cast I believe, and she used her experiences of fixing broken P3's as her model.

[Just My Style]

Honestly, I don't think this is a train wreck question. ;) My horses have been barefoot for as long as I can remember. I wear shoes. I wear shoes because it is socially forced upon you to wear shoes when out in public. Most establishments say "no shirt/ no shoes/ no service". I also wear shoes in public because I don't want to step in or on anything that would be harmful. My favorite shoes are birkenstocks beacuse they are as close to barefoot as I can get when I am out and about. I love them and wear them anytime I can. Of course, they aren't all I own, but they get 10X the wear that my other shoes do. (My #2 shoes are my paddock boots.) Around the house I almost never wear shoes. I don't mind my family's germs and I make sure to pick up all the things that would be harmful to step on around here.

[Tree]

Haven't we influenced the evolution of horses by putting shes on them?

Shoes do not alter a horse's genetic make-up. Poor shoeing and/or poor trimming/neglect can alter the existing structures but still have no affect on the genes. So no, we have not influenced the evolution of horses. Taking the horses out of their natural habitats has influenced the developement of their bodies, feet included. That's not evolution, that's interference, seems like.

Tree

[chaltagor]

Are you saying that we influenced our evolution by wearing shoes?

Yes! The littlest toes on the human foot have lost strength due to wearing shoes. See this article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050821233037.htm

[Dannie0303]

First off...I didn't read all of the responses, but felt compelled to reply anyway.

Reilleyshoe:
It seems more logical to me to compare horse boots to human shoes. Our shoes can (and are) removed very frequently. In my area, because people show year round, most shod horses are never given a "break" from their shoes. Also, the human foot cannot be compared to the equine hoof. They are anatomically completely different.

That being said, I am very fortunate to live in a place where I can wear no shoes or flip flops year round. And yes...that mean I wear my flip flops to the barn....only changing into my boots to ride (for safety reasons). I feel claustrophobic in closed toed shoes and I hate feeling restricted.


As a side note....my horse was shod for 9 years straight, had terribly contracted feet, underslug heels, and was well on his way to having "navicular". He has now been barefoot for almost 2 years and 100% sound and showing on the "A" circuit in the 3'6-4' jumpers

[reillyshoe]

Wow, Chaltagor, what a great find!

from Trinkaus' abstract:
A comparative biomechanical analysis of the proximal pedal phalanges of western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic and middle Upper Paleolithic humans, in the context of those of variably shod recent humans, indicates that supportive footwear was rare in the Middle Paleolithic, but that it became frequent by the middle Upper Paleolithic. This interpretation is based principally on the marked reduction in the robusticity of the lesser toes in the context of little or no reduction in overall lower limb locomotor robusticity by the time of the middle Upper Paleolithic.

Also:
Dr. Trinkaus studied the morphology of toes from prehistoric humans. Roughly speaking, toes in shoes do not need to "grab" onto the ground, because this function is performed by the shoe. This is especially true for the lesser toes, i.e., toes other than the big toe. So, the lesser toes should shrink when humans began to use shoes regularly.

So here might be some evidence of the effect of shoes on our feet? Are small toes any better or worse than an atrophied frog? Are small toes in a human any worse than a dished toe on a horse? Where is the outrage?

[cosmos mom]

Yes! The littlest toes on the human foot have lost strength due to wearing shoes. See this article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/08/050821233037.htm
Dang- I am now mourning the loss of my pinky toe strength...:cry:. It used to be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Sniff...Slurp!

[chaltagor]

Wow, Chaltagor, what a great find!
So here might be some evidence of the effect of shoes on our feet? Are small toes any better or worse than an atrophied frog? Are small toes in a human any worse than a dished toe on a horse? Where is the outrage?

Ok, bear in mind this took place over 26,000 to 30,000 years. We've got a lot longer to go in the length of time humans have been nailing metal to equine feet.

I don't have much to say in this discussion but had to add that bit of info that I remembered hearing about on NPR.

[reillyshoe]

I read the study differently. If it took place gradually over time, it would have been impossible to determine the original time frame. Rather, I gathered that this effect was present in an individual wearing shoes. Since the toe does not need to dig in, in develops in a manner resulting in a smaller digit. Wasn't that how the 30,000 year figure was determined? When the digit first appeared smaller?

[Tree]

So here might be some evidence of the effect of shoes on our feet? Are small toes any better or worse than an atrophied frog? Are small toes in a human any worse than a dished toe on a horse?

How important are small toes to us compared to frogs in hooves? Atrophied frogs are a condition created by hoof form dysfunction. Humans have 5 toes while horses are single toed. I would think that in a single toed animal a dished toe could be more critical than deformities of the small toe in humans. A human doesn't depend so much on a little toe. A horse has only 4 toes and each is quite important.

Tree

[chaltagor]

I read the study differently. If it took place gradually over time, it would have been impossible to determine the original time frame. Rather, I gathered that this effect was present in an individual wearing shoes. Since the toe does not need to dig in, in develops in a manner resulting in a smaller digit. Wasn't that how the 30,000 year figure was determined? When the digit first appeared smaller?

"...the anatomy of their feet began to change starting around 26,000 years ago." A direct quote from the article. That's when the scientists think the studied humans started wearing shoes, some think earlier, gradually weakening the small toes. It started over 26,000 years ago, thus humans have directly been involved in changing the structure of their anatomy, a form of evolution. It's not impossible to see that the toes have changed over time.

Tree, if humans continue to change hoof shape through artificial means as they have done to their own bone structure, then it is feasible that the equine hoof anatomy could be similarly affected. But this would have to be over a long period of time, not unlike the human engineering of an Arabian horse's head to be dished with curved cheek bones. The article was a for-instance: Look what humans have done to their own feet through artificial means without purpose, who knows what we're doing to horses feet?

(Looks like I DO have something to say in this discussion after all.)

[Tree]

Tree, if humans continue to change hoof shape through artificial means as they have done to their own bone structure, then it is feasible that the equine hoof anatomy could be similarly affected. But this would have to be over a long period of time, not unlike the human engineering of an Arabian horse's head to be dished with curved cheek bones. The article was a for-instance: Look what humans have done to their own feet through artificial means without purpose, who knows what we're doing to horses feet?

(Looks like I DO have something to say in this discussion after all.)

I don't quite see the connection when genetics give us and horses our structures and then how we use or misuse these structures affects them accordingly. I don't doubt that evolution will continue to alter species. I just won't see it in my lifetime. It'll be those who live thousands of years from now that will if they study the past.

Using this idea and thinking about how physically unfit humans are increasingly becoming, will the strong survive while the weak die off? So will the traits of the strong influence the future population and the weak leave hardly a mark at all? These questions can readily apply to animals too.

In my work, I can see what we're doing to horse's feet but it has more to do with outside influences. Small footed QH's have some things in common outside of the gene pool which lead to the development of tea-cup sized hooves. I'm reminded of this when trimming a QH mare which was one of my first horse's foals. She had large hooves back when we owned her. Years of bad shoeing have left her feet almost half the size they were back then. The farrier her owners used is notorious for using smaller shoes. If she were bred, her present hoof conditions could not be used to establish what her foal's feet would be like.

Tree

[Dannie0303]

I agree that we cannot cause the horse's hoof to evolve because of shoes. That being said, I can see that we can cause problems by breeding horses with poor quality hooves. In the wild, these horses do not exist because of natural selection, but inbreed of domestic horses had created horses with poor quality hooves. Instead of dying out like they would in the wild, they are shod and horses like this are bred. Over time, more and more horses will be around with bad feet....a direct result of human interference

[matryoshka]

Okay, I'm not sure that simply not using a digit is going to reduce its size from generation to generation. There has to be a selection for success in there, where smaller toes would result in a better chance of successful reproduction so the "small toe" trait gets passed on in preference to large toes.

As for horses, selection IS pertinent. Humans can selectively breed horses for size, type, movement, etc. And they can make big changes in a few generations. Successful design is no longer determined by natural selection, rather it is now driven by human selection.

How has the shoe influenced breeding selection? By making it possible for horses with poor feet to continue to compete and be selected as breeding animals. If these horses were not allowed to wear shoes, and fewer succeeded at their sport as a result, then good feet that could handle going barefoot would be part of the selection criteria.

Dr. Rooney says that racehorses are now bred to go 45mph on 35mph legs. So breeders have selected for faster individuals, to the detriment of their bone structure. People wonder why so many race horses break down. To me it is fairly simple: we are breeding for speed, not longevity. I can't remember the resource, but bone characteristics are heritable. So hoof quality, based on the shape of the coffin bone, is also heritable.

And no, I'm not a researcher. I've read plenty over the years though. I find it interesting that people like to believe or discard infomation based on whether it supports or undermines what they want to be true. I'm sure I'm guilty of this, too, but I try to be objective.

[PaulBunyon]

Shoes do not alter a horse's genetic make-up.
Correct. Human involvement in the selection for breeding process, along with natural genetic mutation does.
So no, we have not influenced the evolution of horses.
What an absurd statement.

Of course we humans have influenced the evolution of horses. Just look and any one of the designer original breeds of today. Does the modern Arabian look like Lady Davenport's originals? Do the Morgans, thoroughbreds, Quarter horses, etc of today, look like the ones of old. What, besides some basic genetic material do you think Wimpy P-1 has in common with Impressive? Or Skipper W bred horses? Or Doc Bar horses? ad naseum. Do you really think that those foot waviing diletantes of the High Society show ring and the various neuvo- breed designer original imitations have anything much at all in common with their ancestors? Or would you say that the evolution of these breeds is solely due to the wants, whims and desires of humans? Why do you suppose most all purebred breed associations and their members, keep stud books?
Taking the horses out of their natural habitats has influenced the developement of their bodies, feet included. That's not evolution, that's interference, seems like.
Forcing the horse to adapt to our requirements, and maintaing those who best fit our paradigm and are able to reproduce it, is either an evolution of the breed or a devolution of the breed. And yes, when a breed changes its genotype and phenotype due to our specific wants, needs and desires, it is evolution or devolution and it is because of our implicit interference.
Now, if you want to see a somewhat more 'natural' evolutionary process, then look no further than the ferals. Although, one might argue that because of man's selection of certain members of any herd/group for removal from that group, that man has yet again influenced evolution by our interference.
So what? Whether its survival of the fittest, or survival of the most desired, its still an evolutionary process. Just as the evolution of the horse from a five toed, dog sized animal to the various and sundry examples of S. Equus of today was and remains evolution.

[LMH]

Seriously...if we are going to make this comparison then why do we wear clothes? Horses don't. Or reversely put-why don't we make our horses wear clothes in 'public' since we do?

[matryoshka]

Paul, can we assume that you wear shoes? And, how long is your little toe? :lol: :lol:

[matryoshka]

Okay, is my addiction to The Discovery Channel Showing?

One of the reasons we wear clothing is because we are no longer covered in fur. Horses are, so there is no need for clothing. We humans have ventured away from our original habitat where our traits were selected for success. Once we were able to cover ourselves in the skins of other animals, we could venture into the cold. Once we could use skins to protect our feet, we could venture into areas that would have lamed us before. Plenty of people blanket their horses in the winter, too, because we have taken horses built for warm climates and moved them into the cold. Some people clip their heavy horses to manage heat better in the summer.

Similarly, because of humans, horses are being forced away from their original habitats, where their feet had a very successful design. We have taken away natural selection and imposed human selection on their breeding/evolution. The original horse was perfectly designed to survive in his habitat, just as humans were. As we take them into new areas where their design is not adequate, we have supplied them with the means to stay sound (i.e. shoes) over terrain and under conditions that would have made them lame.

Having said that, does every horse currently wearing shoes truly need them to stay sound given their current work load? I seriously doubt it.

[PaulBunyon]

Paul, can we assume that you wear shoes? And, how long is your little toe? :lol: :lol:
To spare anyone the embarassment of having to make assumptions(we all know what happens when you ass/u/me something :) ) , I most assuredly wear shoes, at least a majority of the time. :p And depending on what I am doing at any particular moment, those shoes are worn for protection, traction or gait alteration, or any combination thereof. :yes: :D

And, though no Emelda Marcos, my shoe collection is rather eclectic, if not esoteric.

As for the length of my little toe. Well, it is as long as it is and not a bit longer:lol: Though it is of course, the shortest toe in my shoes and considering how many times it has been mangled when I wasn't wearing the correct foot protection, it is , sadly, no longer the prettiest toe in the shoe either.

Having said that, does every horse currently wearing shoes truly need them to stay sound given their current work load? I seriously doubt it.
Since this is a rather absurd discussion(meant as an observation on the collective, not necessarily the individual) comparing horse hooves to human feet, I'll add to the absurdity. Does every human currently wearing shoes truly need them to stay sound given their current work load?

[Tree]

That being said, I can see that we can cause problems by breeding horses with poor quality hooves. In the wild, these horses do not exist because of natural selection, but inbreed of domestic horses had created horses with poor quality hooves.

Are the bad quality hooves truly related to breeding practices though or environmental influences? This is where I don't see a black and white picture....the breeding of small footed horses leading to small footed offspring. I think back to the example I gave about the mare. If you didn't know her until later in life, you could assume her feet were tiny from breeding vs knowing her hooves were once larger and bad shoeing practices morphed them into something smaller.

If you look at newborn hooves you will find that they are all quite contracted with the diameter of their hooves being larger up at the hairlines than the lowest part which contacts the ground. Under the right circumstances these feet soon begin to expand and widen out but under the wrong circumstances they will remain contracted beyond the vertical. This is why I don't assign poor hooves to breeding.

In the wild, the foals aren't likely to be mismanaged and will have to be up and moving in order to survive. During the filming of "Cloud", the woman documenting the wild horse herds studied one in particular which experienced multiple foals deaths during one season. I don't recall if the foals were all still born or died soon after birth but it seemed all of the ones in this particular band died. In another band there was a foal which couldn't get up to its feet. It struggled but remained down. The mare eventually abandoned it when another band came along. The mares of this band sniffed the foal but moved on and the stallion came along and took the foal in its teeth and shook it violently until it was dead.

Another scene from this same documentary showed a herd stallion limping on a front leg. He wasn't weighting the foot at all. Another stallion challenged him for the herd and lost. The 3-legged Stallion fought, chased and defended his herd successfully.

How often is it that wild horses will have hoof issues? How many of these issues lead to their eventual deaths? I don't think anyone can answer this unless they make wild horse study their life.


Instead of dying out like they would in the wild, they are shod and horses like this are bred. Over time, more and more horses will be around with bad feet....a direct result of human interference

Again, I don't think bad feet are a direct result of breeding practices. There are so many good footed horses whose feet end up bad because of other conditions. One practice I can think of, with showhorses, is shoeing their hooves before they've fully matured and limiting the amount of exercise they get (stalls with some turnout).

Tree

[matryoshka]

In my case, yes. I'm barely sound (gait wise, we aren't talking mental stability here :winkgrin:) at work WITH my padded muck boots. While in the house, I'm barefoot, except in winter when I wear socks, preferably really warm socks. You can tell a horsewoman by how many different styles/pairs of work boots she has compared to her dress shoe collection. Me: dress shoes-3 pairs; work shoes-4 pairs. Maybe my husband should take me out more!

The ability to provide hoof protection when needed and take it back off for turnout is why I like hoof boots so much. However, if the horse isn't sound in the pasture without shoes, then I'd choose shoes over boots. Also, if the boots aren't enough protection (or not acceptable) for a given sport, then I'd also apply shoes.

For example, my flat-footed OTTB may not have good enough feet to compete in endurance even with boots for protection. Once we get training serously for mileage, I'll know better how his feet will hold up. If I were to show him, he'd also need shoes. And yes, I've got rocks in my pasture (put gravel down where they have to travel and eat hay), he's turned out 24/7, and I've done everything else I can think of to help him have healthy bare feet. Can't fight genetics, though.

[Tree]

How has the shoe influenced breeding selection? By making it possible for horses with poor feet to continue to compete and be selected as breeding animals. If these horses were not allowed to wear shoes, and fewer succeeded at their sport as a result, then good feet that could handle going barefoot would be part of the selection criteria.

Yeah but we pull shoes from the horses with poor feet to rehab them and return the not too damaged ones to a healthy form. Do those horses truly have bad feet due to breeding or due to circumstances outside of the gene pool? There's more to "bad feet" than genes.

Dr. Rooney says that racehorses are now bred to go 45mph on 35mph legs. So breeders have selected for faster individuals, to the detriment of their bone structure. People wonder why so many race horses break down. To me it is fairly simple: we are breeding for speed, not longevity. I can't remember the resource, but bone characteristics are heritable. So hoof quality, based on the shape of the coffin bone, is also heritable.

Again, is it breeding or the practice of racing horses before they've fully matured? Breakdowns are a part of the racing industry. The racing horses may be born with everything they need to live a long life and it just boils down to management practices or sheer luck, if they survive unbroken to retire from racing. Rooney is respected in his field but I still wouldn't assume that what he said was accurate. It may only be skirting around the real issue as to why race horses break down.

Tree

[reillyshoe]

Of course we do not need to wear shoes as much as we do. Again, remember that a substantial percentage of the wotld's population does not wear shoes. Of course the mechanics are different between horses and humans. I am not suggesting otherwise. The reasons I am aware of for objecting to shoes on horses do have similarities to our feet

1. Horseshoes change feet from their natural condition. This suggests that the natural condition is preferrable. Human shoes do the same.
2. Horses feet are capable of adapting when given the chance. So will human feet.
3. Horseshoes interfere with the mechanics of the hoof. Thanks to the study provided by Dr. Trinkaus, we can say the same about human shoes.

I am really not asking this question of everybody on this forum. If you believe horseshoes have a place and use them as needed, then we are in agreement. I am more interested in the thoughts of those who think horseshoes have NO place on a horse. Why NOT experience life in the same way?
Turn the discussion around for a minute. If I explained that I was putting shoes and pads on a horse so they would not have manure squishing through their foot, would that be a good reason? More than a few barns I have been in have an occasional rodent issue. Is that an OK reason to shoe a horse? Perhaps I should put hospital plates and anti-microbials on every horse to reduce the chance of fungal growth/ringworm/tape worm?

I have lots of acceptable reasons to put shoes on a horse. I have lots of acceptable reasons to put shoes on my feet. Since I do find there to be some similarities in the decision making process, I am asking for input from those who think shoes on horses to be an inappropriate choice.

The best reason I can come up with for human shoes is insulation, and that is clearly not needed in every climate (nor is it an issue for horses). The best reason I can come up with for not shoeing a horse is growth (if my feet were constantly growing in my shoes, the forces would always be changing, a limitation to every horseshoe). One common line of thinking in the barefoot world is horseshoes lead to deformation which will eventually lead to lameness. I have also read that deformation is more important than current levels of soundness. If shoes are deforming YOUR feet, why not condition YOUR feet to a more natural, less deformed state?

[Posting Trot]

Just on the whole issue of whether humans have changed the evolution of horses: selective breeding has done a lot, in terms of changing how horses look. But an Arabian can still be bred to a Percheron; for that matter an Arabian can still be bred to a zebra. So selective breeding has not altered them so radically.

On the other hand, anybody who has owned a horse for several years and in different conditions and using different farriers/trimmers will have noticed substantial changes in the horse's hooves. In that sense hooves are more like human hair (and this analogy is not perfect either obviously): sure everybody has certain innate qualities to their own hair, including its color, strength, the way it grows, etc. But the hair is constantly growing (unless of course you're bald), and can be dynamically changed depending on what you do to it. Genetically of course nothing has changed if you get your hair cut; but your hair can look substantially different nonetheless.

So I think a lot of the discussion of how TBs have bad hooves, for instance, because nobody cares when they breed TBs what the hooves are like is a little misplaced. I'd be willing to bet that a large # of TBs's hooves would have developed just fine if they'd had decent farriery and trimming when they were younger, and if they weren't kept in a stall for 23 hours out of every 24 when they're in training.

Don't flame me on this. People are perfectly free to keep their horses anyway they want to, and clearly, as far as racehorses are concerned there are benefits to keeping them and training them the way they are kept and trained. But it's the dynamic impact of how the individual horses are kept that determines a lot about the hoof rather than the individual horses' genetic makeups.

[Tree]

I am really not asking this question of everybody on this forum. If you believe horseshoes have a place and use them as needed, then we are in agreement. I am more interested in the thoughts of those who think horseshoes have NO place on a horse. Why NOT experience life in the same way?

Shoes, for humans = boots for horses. I believe in using hoof boots as needed.

Turn the discussion around for a minute. If I explained that I was putting shoes and pads on a horse so they would not have manure squishing through their foot, would that be a good reason? More than a few barns I have been in have an occasional rodent issue. Is that an OK reason to shoe a horse? Perhaps I should put hospital plates and anti-microbials on every horse to reduce the chance of fungal growth/ringworm/tape worm?

How does manure squish THROUGH a hoof? That doesn't appear to be a good reason or example. And as far as rodents go and hooves needing protection against them, I would opt for exterminating the rodents vs protecting the hooves because I don't think the dangers are limited to just a horse's feet in that case. So I see neither of these examples as ones which require shoes. If the hooves are such bad shape that manure would go THROUGH them and be subject to fungi and worms, there is something seriously wrong with the situation.

My horses and ponies are pastured. They will step in manure, stand in manure (while in the loafing sheds) and stand in yuck which forms around the hay rings and their hooves still provide plenty of protection from thrush and other bacteria. If they get worms, it's usually ingested vs entry through their hooves. That is news to me...worms intering via hooves. What are those hoove like?


The best reason I can come up with for human shoes is insulation, and that is clearly not needed in every climate (nor is it an issue for horses). The best reason I can come up with for not shoeing a horse is growth (if my feet were constantly growing in my shoes, the forces would always be changing, a limitation to every horseshoe). One common line of thinking in the barefoot world is horseshoes lead to deformation which will eventually lead to lameness. I have also read that deformation is more important than current levels of soundness. If shoes are deforming YOUR feet, why not condition YOUR feet to a more natural, less deformed state?

Yes, hoof capsules provide adequate insulation for hooved animals. Hoof form relates to function so maintaining proper form allows hooves to function as they should. The best reason I can think of for not shoeing hooves is that there are now more options to choose from...boots. And add to this, more options now than "pasture trims" too. I have more options to choose from because I know more about hooves than I did when I first got involved with horses. I don't wear shoes which deform my own feet. Back when I was in Jr. High I started to take Toe lessons and soon had to quit because the toe shoes were killing my feet on and off "point". Toe dancing wasn't THAT important to me. ;) Give me those ballet slippers any day!!!!

Shoeing can deform hooves. Improper lifestyles can deform hooves. Improper trimming can deform hooves.

Tree

[matryoshka]

Without doing a case study of TB's from various bloodlines and control groups brought up using different hoof care protocols, it's hard to say whether the problem with their feet stems from genetics or poor shoeing/early racing. My guess would be that both things are contributing factors. Not all TB's with poor feet are raced, and not all TB's that have been raced have poor feet. "It depends." ;)

While I agree that poor trimming and shoeing can adversely affect feet (just as corrective trimming and shoeing can help a horse over a problem), I also think that genetics play a role. And we can continue to breed different breeds together and have fertile offspring as long as we stay within the species. The same is true of dogs. Theoretically, you could breed a Chiuaua to a St. Bernard, but who would want to? We may not have created separate species with our breeding practices, but we sure have affected their proportions, their movements, their size, and even their coats.

As for dissecting foal feet, I think the findings are interesting. I'm not sure how well they predict adult horse feet, though, because foals have not yet reached their full stature. Human baby feet look quite different from the feet of a toddler, which look quite different from older chileren's feet, which are different from adult feet. You can't take a foal's hoof and be sure to predict how it will develop any more than you can with a baby. Certain deformities or poor structures are visible in babies, giving us time to correct the problem as they grow. A baby's foot that has not yet carried any significant weight looks very different from one that has been walked on a lot.

Reillyshoe, I realize that you'd rather hear from the barefoot only group, but you can't control how these discussions go. As nearly as I can tell from this thread, the resident barefooters do not think that comparing human feet to equine feet is valid. So, we're left with a philosophical question being discussed by those who wish to.

I think it is an interesting question, so I'm trying to follow my own opinions as to how I arrived at my conclusions. I'm also interested in the opinions of others, whether barefooter or shoer or owner who tries to do what his best for his/her horse. It seems to me that Tree and I look at different sides of the same coin. I don't think there are absolutes, so I tend toward the middle of the road. Unfortunately for me, that's where the trucks and cars drive! :eek:

[Tree]

While I agree that poor trimming and shoeing can adversely affect feet (just as corrective trimming and shoeing can help a horse over a problem), I also think that genetics play a role. And we can continue to breed different breeds together and have fertile offspring as long as we stay within the species. The same is true of dogs. Theoretically, you could breed a Chiuaua to a St. Bernard, but who would want to? We may not have created separate species with our breeding practices, but we sure have affected their proportions, their movements, their size, and even their coats.

For me, breeds of animals have certain characteristics which separate them from others. Someone had already mentioned the dished faces of arabs and tiny hooves of QH's but I'm not convinced that tiny hooves ARE the result of genetics. It would be making the assumption that tiny hooves are typical of QH's without taking under consideration how the smaller hooves developed. The mixing of breeds (dogs, horses or whatever...even humans), just dilutes the dominant genes and breed characteristics. You'll find a mix of characteristics, in other words. But as far as making any changes compared to those brought on by evolution, I think it's a far cry from that happening. Designer animals (or humans), are just combos of what already exists. Mutants don't tend to hold up too well....I'm thinking of dwarf horses.

As for dissecting foal feet, I think the findings are interesting. I'm not sure how well they predict adult horse feet, though, because foals have not yet reached their full stature. Human baby feet look quite different from the feet of a toddler, which look quite different from older chileren's feet, which are different from adult feet. You can't take a foal's hoof and be sure to predict how it will develop any more than you can with a baby. Certain deformities or poor structures are visible in babies, giving us time to correct the problem as they grow. A baby's foot that has not yet carried any significant weight looks very different from one that has been walked on a lot.

You don't have to dissect foal hooves to see that they are very contracted at birth. You just have to be observant of what they look like. All foal hooves start out contracted. Once they begin to weight them, if the conditions are right, those feet will open up very quickly. If the conditions aren't right, they already have a head start on tiny hoof problems.

I think it is an interesting question, so I'm trying to follow my own opinions as to how I arrived at my conclusions. I'm also interested in the opinions of others, whether barefooter or shoer or owner who tries to do what his best for his/her horse. It seems to me that Tree and I look at different sides of the same coin. I don't think there are absolutes, so I tend toward the middle of the road. Unfortunately for me, that's where the trucks and cars drive! :eek:

Me too. Sure, I think the main difference I have is that I don't lay as much importance on the developement of hooves on genetic factors. For me, that is not an absolute. The genes give the horse hooves and then it's a matter of how the environment shapes them from there.

Tree

[Auventera Two]

Someone had already mentioned the dished faces of arabs and tiny hooves of QH's but I'm not convinced that tiny hooves ARE the result of genetics. It would be making the assumption that tiny hooves are typical of QH's without taking under consideration how the smaller hooves developed.

I just want to comment on this because we raised QHs for many years. I found that the tiny hooves are more a result of shoeing as yearlings, being stalled continually, specific trimming, etc. more than genetics.

I have seen lots of QHs who were culls from Halter barns who did not have the tiny feet because they were never "developed" as show horses. It was aparent from the time they were born, or from the weanling age, that they did not have the desirable conforamtion, so they get turned out in a pasture with the other babies not suitable for Halter. They are then sold for trail horses, western pleasure mounts, huntseat, companions, etc.

If the tiny feet were heavily genetic based, they would have tiny feet no matter what. Yes, I'm sure it is genetic to a point, but only to a point.

Also - not all Halter barns try to develop tiny feet! I knew people who were very much against teacup feet and allowed the horse to develop natural sized feet, even if it wasn't the most "in" thing for the ring. I used to show Halter and I can most assuredly tell you that people are not going to throw out their beautifully conformed horses because their feet are a little too big! Hooves are a few points and nothing more, of the overall score. It might be a different story if the horses were judged only by their feet.

Halter breeders breed for muscle mass and conformation above and beyond all else. You want a horse with absolutely dead on the bullseye PERFECT conformation, a heavy muscular frame, and if he comes out with small hooves, fine. But you aren't going to throw out your best body because of the hooves. You can slap shoes on a yearling to get a taller, smaller hoof, but you can't do much about naturally imperfect conformation and muscle mass/tone. Halter breeders selectively breed for the latter, and environmentally change the former, if they desire to do so.

[Tree]

TS,

I've had similar findings with regards to how foals were kept involving a variety of breeds. Environment plays an important role in how hooves develope. It also plays a role in how well foals develope too.

Tree

[LarkspurCO]

everybody has certain innate qualities to their own hair, including its color, strength, the way it grows, etc. But the hair is constantly growing (unless of course you're bald), and can be dynamically changed depending on what you do to it.

Sure, you can alter the look of your hair by cutting, coloring and styling. But you can't make genetically fine thin hair grown in course and thick, and you can't make it hold up better under a curling iron.

[Lookout]

Yeah but we pull shoes from the horses with poor feet to rehab them and return the not too damaged ones to a healthy form.

And then put shoes back on once they're returned to health! :D

[Tree]

And then put shoes back on once they're returned to health! :D


And the beat goes on. ;)

Tree

[reillyshoe]

Just to be clear, the reasons presented for shoeing horses (manure squishing through the toes, rats, worms) were reasons presented by people here as to why they wear shoes instead of going barefoot.

[Tree]

Just to be clear, the reasons presented for shoeing horses (manure squishing through the toes, rats, worms) were reasons presented by people here as to why they wear shoes instead of going barefoot.

Thanks for the clarification.

The reasons for humans wearing shoes don't necessarily make sense when applied to why horses wear shoes. :rolleyes: Our "manure" isn't usually under foot like animal waste can be. There have been posts here in the past where rats were chewing on the coronets of stalled horses at some barn. So this is why I thought you were talking about reasons for shoeing horses as it relates TO horse conditions. I don't know about worms infesting horse hooves or human feet.

Tree

[reillyshoe]

Tree said:
Shoeing can deform hooves. Improper lifestyles can deform hooves.

Yes, that is my point. Your shoes are deforming your feet. Your lifestyle is deforming your feet. Is this a problem? (remember the line about your little toe getting smaller because it cannot dig into the ground? I am curious to hear why you think this is such a problem for your horse, but not for you.

[Lookout]

Why should we apply the same standards and values we have for horses to ourselves?

[smegma]

Just to be clear, the reasons presented for shoeing horses (manure squishing through the toes, rats, worms) were reasons presented by people here as to why they wear shoes instead of going barefoot.
Didn't anyone mention bling?

[Tree]

Yes, that is my point. Your shoes are deforming your feet. Your lifestyle is deforming your feet. Is this a problem? (remember the line about your little toe getting smaller because it cannot dig into the ground? I am curious to hear why you think this is such a problem for your horse, but not for you.

You don't know if my shoes are deforming my feet, Reilly. What am I supposed to compare my feet to as far as the "ideal"? So until I know what I'm supposed to compare them to, I don't know that I have a problem at all. ;) The article isn't enough to start me to worrying about it either. I can grip things with my feet so I don't know that my little toes (or the others), are deformed. I have long toes vs short stubby ones. TMI? I think you need more info if you're going to make assumptions about my feet, don't you? ;)

As far as shoes being a problem for my horses and not for me. I can separate my needs from my horses/ponies needs. They live a life which is suited to going barefoot. Some have worn shoes in the past and ended up with morphed hoof shapes. Some have never been shod at all and the rest could have but I don't know because I got them later in their lives. At any rate, none of that matters because they are all barefoot now and maintained in that manner. If they should need protection, I will opt for HOOF BOOTS which are much like HUMAN FOOTWEAR in that they can be put on and taken off vs permanently fixed to their feet. Someone already mentioned how human footwear isn't nailed on. :lol:

So where is the problem?

Tree

[PaulBunyon]

I don't know about worms infesting horse hooves or human feet.
Tree
Ever seen a hoof full of maggots?

[PaulBunyon]

I will opt for HOOF BOOTS which are much like HUMAN FOOTWEAR in that they can be put on and taken off vs permanently fixed to their feet.
How silly! Even if the shoes are nailed to the hoof, that is not a permanent situation. No more permanent that putting on a hoofboot and leaving it there for any length of time and then removing it.

[Auventera Two]

As far as shoes being a problem for my horses and not for me. I can separate my needs from my horses/ponies needs. They live a life which is suited to going barefoot. Some have worn shoes in the past and ended up with morphed hoof shapes. Some have never been shod at all and the rest could have but I don't know because I got them later in their lives. At any rate, none of that matters because they are all barefoot now and maintained in that manner. If they should need protection, I will opt for HOOF BOOTS which are much like HUMAN FOOTWEAR in that they can be put on and taken off vs permanently fixed to their feet. Someone already mentioned how human footwear isn't nailed on. :lol:

So where is the problem?

Tree

EXACTLY! :yes:

[smegma]

Maggots? Ewww. :eek: How about gangrene? I just talked to my friend lastnight and found out she was hospitalized because she had cut her toe. Toe got infected with nasty horse pen germs and turned into gangrene. Doctor said it's not uncommon in people who work around livestock. She can't be around her horses for another month.

[barney4liz]

Does anyone advocating "barefeet only" for horses wear shoes themselves?

I don't see why the answer should be different for people and horses, at least in terms or theory.

I don't see meaningful inconsistencies in having different rules for different species with respect to footgear.

I can think of a multitude of horsekeeping practices that would normally be deemed unacceptable for human application.

Gelding springs to mind. ;) :D

[alysheba]

Humans in the civilized world don't have the natural antibodies to fight off disease that could be transmitted into your body by contact w/the bottom of your feet.

Besides, I like wearing cute open toed sandals, flip flops and heals. I don't want my feet to look like a cavemans :)

[MBPearls]

My mare goes barefoot because I think that's what's best for her. Her hooves are tough enough she doesn't need shoes or hoofboots when I'm riding. Her pasturemate has overcome a rather severe case of founder while being barefoot - the reasoning was if her hoof has so many problems, why the hell are we nailing shoes to it? Since that point in time, both have remained barefoot and will continue to do so as long as they aren't in any pain.

As for me, I'd love to go barefoot, unfortunately to keep my horse, I have to have this thing called a job. And in my job, I have a uniform. Aside from the khaki pants and the blue dress shirt that I'm required to wear at my place of business, the dress code specifically states I am to wear black socks and black shoes.

From all the threads I've seen, it's more of the shoeing people freaking out over the barefoot people than vice versa. So my mare is barefoot! Is it REALLY bothering you that badly? :winkgrin:

[Aptor Hours]

These threads get so funny! The barefooters attack....they need to chill...shoing is ok....don't worry be happy. It really is all good.


Chill down chill down!

[Tree]

"Barefooters Attack"....hmmm, that might make a great movie. :lol:

Chill out? I wish I could. With the weather we're having, being outside and chillin' at the same time is next to impossible while working on hooves.

We were all enjoying drinks on page 1. If we're still enjoying drinks by the last page, the mood should be rather mellow. I do agree this has been fun if not funny. It depends on your POV, I think.

Tree

[Tree]

From all the threads I've seen, it's more of the shoeing people freaking out over the barefoot people than vice versa. So my mare is barefoot! Is it REALLY bothering you that badly? :winkgrin:

I agree. I don't know why barefooters should abandon personal safety over some wacky idea that to have barefooted horses one should also go barefoot themselves. It sounds like an all or nothing tude which just doesn't fly straight. I wouldn't dream of trimming horse's hooves without wearing work boots on my feet! When I'm hurt and can't work, I don't earn any money. And the ones who think barefooters are absurd wear shoes to work too. They won't shuck their work shoes when pasture trimming horses. So where is this coming from?

I don't have an all or nothing tude when it comes to hoof care other than for my personally owned equines and my chosen field of study. My clientele consists of horse owners who have barefooted equines. If any of them wanted shod horses they have the freedom to find a farrier to shoe them. So just because they're a client of mine doesn't mean they couldn't decide to have their horse(s) shod.

Tree

[PaulBunyon]

I don't know why barefooters should abandon personal safety over some wacky idea that to have barefooted horses one should also go barefoot themselves.
Good for the goose, good for the gander? You want to wear shoes for personal safety, perhaps the horse should too.
It sounds like an all or nothing tude which just doesn't fly straight.
Not quite. You preach keeping horses barefoot for "their own good", yet you yourself , when it comes to your person, don't practice what you preach.
I wouldn't dream of trimming horse's hooves without wearing work boots on my feet!
Yet you expect and preach that all horses should work without shoes(their work boots)
When I'm hurt and can't work, I don't earn any money.
I've heard the same thing said about horses.
And the ones who think barefooters are absurd wear shoes to work too.
Of course we do. We practice what we preach. To wit: Them that need shoes, get them, them that don't need shoes, don't. Our personal actions are in accord with our professional actions.
They won't shuck their work shoes when pasture trimming horses. So where is this coming from?
Why should we. We give the horse exactly what it needs, and we do the same for ourselves. Consistency in thought, word and deed, thats the ticket.
I don't have an all or nothing tude when it comes to hoof care other than for my personally owned equines and my chosen field of study.
Sure you do. If it were otherwise, you'd be a fullcare hoofcare provider, aka: a farrier.
My clientele consists of horse owners who have barefooted equines.
In part, so does mine.
If any of them wanted shod horses they have the freedom to find a farrier to shoe them. So just because they're a client of mine doesn't mean they couldn't decide to have their horse(s) shod.
Who's going to suggest that option to them? You? I rather doubt it. So, in point of fact, your actions, across the board, belie your words.

[barney4liz]

There is no LOGICAL inconsistency. There is inconsistency only if one adopts an absurdist position.

To wit:

Is your dog crate trained? If so, are your children crate trained?

Your cat uses a litter box. Does Mrs. PB use a litter box?

You ride a gelding. Are you . . . .???

The silliness could go on forever under PB's rubric.

It would, of course, be quite rude to suggest that a poster enroll in a Logic 101 course. :lol: ;)

[PaulBunyon]

There is inconsistency only if one adopts an absurdist position.
How succinctly you have stated the case for the absurdity of the 24/7/365 barefoot-only cult. Thank you.

By the way, I thought I was on your 'ignore' list. What the hell are you doing reading and responding to me? ROTFLMAO!!!

To wit:

Is your dog crate trained? If so, are your children crate trained?
Yes to both. ie: "Bowser, get in your crate!" "Suzie, go to your room!"
Your cat uses a litter box. Does Mrs. PB use a litter box?
If there were a Mrs. PB, she would use the equivalent ie: the 'commode'. So the answer is "yes"
You ride a gelding. Are you . . . .???
First, I don't ride a gelding. Second, 'No'.

Of course, carrying out the absurdity of your illogical thinking, you are a female, right? Do you ride a gelding? Are your dogs and cats, if any, neutered? Are you? If married, did you choose your SO or was s/he chosen for you?
The silliness could go on forever under PB's rubric.
Its not my rubric that is either silly or absurd. Care to take a shot at whose is?
It would, of course, be quite rude to suggest that a poster enroll in a Logic 101 course. :lol: ;)
Nah, it wouldn't be rude at all. Let me be the first to suggest that right after you complete your Reading Comprehension 101 course, you enroll in the Logic 101 course. You'll have to wait to enroll in the Logic course because Reading Comprehension is a pre-requisite. :lol:

[fivesocks]

With all due respect, I hope some people don't need to take the SAT anytime soon, because there is clearly going to be trouble in the analogy section.

If only horses could talk.

[barney4liz]

What the hell are you doing reading and responding to me? ROTFLMAO!!!

It's called "freedom of speech", dear. Add Con Law 101 to your list. :lol: I took you off "ignore" to toy with you. Because the more you post the deeper you dig your hole.

Back to "ignore" with you now. Have a lovely day! :D

[cosmos mom]

I love the title of this thread! It is so not a serious question! The thread should be called "Hey barefooters, I think you are all full of sh*T and I want to ***k with you. Come answer my silly partonizing question!"

Let it die!

[PaulBunyon]

I love the title of this thread! It is so not a serious question! The thread should be called "Hey barefooters, I think you are all full of sh*T and I want to ***k with you.
Not all barefooters. Just the 24/7/365 Barefoot-only mindset ones.

That aside, I do like your title for the thread. And the second sentence, with my above 'modifer', does indeed say it well and all.:lol:

[Aggie4Bar]

One reason why humans should wear shoes: Skunks.

How are the two things related, you ask? Allow me to explain…

You are at the barn when two of the BO’s dogs run off in the dark barking. Unbeknownst to you at the moment, they’ve found a skunk. Shortly thereafter, it is painfully apparent to all that they have found a skunk. The skunk is, unfortunately, so close by that none in the barn escape being skunkified, including you. Also, unfortunately, your vehicle has fallen victim to skunkification as it is parked within feet of where the angered critter “fired”.

You drive your stinky self home in your stinky vehicle, leaving the windows cracked in hopes for additional airing out in the driveway. But it begins to rain. You, freshly showered and in your bare feet, adopt the shortest-route strategy to close your windows, which involves dashing to the vehicle and throwing yourself into the passenger side. Unfortunately, because you change from work clothes into barn clothes at the barn and are not diligent about removing your work clothes from the passenger side of the truck, you place your bare foot and full weight directly on the upturned heel of a high-heeled shoe as you throw yourself into the vehicle. Pain. Instant. Excruciating. Pain.

And this, my friends, is one reason why humans should wear shoes: You may encounter a skunk that leads to you stepping on a high heel. Should this happen to you, the underside of your arch will be scraped and bruised and bear similar appearance to mine right now. Don’t let this happen to you! :eek:

[Auventera Two]

OH MY GOD too funny!!!!! :lol: That was a great story! I have a similar story as to how I ended up 1,000 miles away from home, in Florida, because of a skunk.

But actually I must point out to you that if you maintained yourself barefoot all the time, that high heel wouldn't have been there for your stabbing pleasure ;) So it's a vicious cycle hu? You think you must wear shoes to avoid stepping on a high heel, but in reality, if you never wore shoes, there would be no high heel there to step on! So see, that's why we should just all throw our shoes away and go barefoot! LOL! :D

[barney4liz]

And this, my friends, is one reason why humans should wear shoes: You may encounter a skunk that leads to you stepping on a high heel. Should this happen to you, the underside of your arch will be scraped and bruised and bear similar appearance to mine right now. Don’t let this happen to you! :eek:

:lol: :lol: great story, lesson learned. ;)

[PaulBunyon]

It's called "freedom of speech", dear.
Dear? Dear? ROTFLMAO!! The only 'dear' here is the 'deer in the headlights' look on your face each and every time you attempt a reply. :lol: :lol:

And it has nothing to do with 'freedom of speech'. I couldn't care less when, what or if you post anything. I was just commenting on your stated position.
It has to do with your credibility and your inability to do what you say you are going to do. Do you always have this much trouble saying "no" and then sticking to it? Betcha dating was a real trip for you.("Stop that! I'm ignoring you. No, wait!, just for now I'm not going to ignore you, I'm going to respond. OOOOh that was fun! Now, get back on your side of the car. I'm ignoring you again")
Add Con Law 101 to your list. :lol: I took you off "ignore" to toy with you. Because the more you post the deeper you dig your hole.
Seems like the only wind up toy in this equation is you. Got your main spring wound a little too tight did I? Careful, we don't want you to go
" SPROOONG!"
Back to "ignore" with you now. Have a lovely day! :D
Mind how you go now. To replace your mainspring is a major undertaking and the parts are currently on back order.

Anyone want to start a pool and place a wager on how long it will take for me to once again come off B4L's 'ignore' list. :lol: :lol:

[barney4liz]

I love the title of this thread! It is so not a serious question! The thread should be called "Hey barefooters, I think you are all full of sh*T and I want to ***k with you. Come answer my silly partonizing question!"

But it's hysterically funny that we have trolling farriers, so how can we refuse to feed the poor things???!! :lol:

[PaulBunyon]

Since Mr. Bunyan is on my ignore list, I can't read the jibberish you are responding to, BUT, I think you make some great points here!
How short sighted of you. Making assumptions based on only part of the story. Typical.
Do we eat alfalfa, timothy, and oats and possibly the ocassional apple or carrot? Or do we enjoy a myriad of foods appropriate to the homo sapiens?
Appropriate according to whom? Might want to ask a true vegan that question, eh?
Equines and humans are not analogous in any way whatsoever. The diet, the exercise needs, the social needs, the foot care, everything is different.
Glad you finally figured that out, though in some ways, many of the needs could be considered analogous if not equal. I mean, both species do need to eat, exercise, interact, stay healthy, protect their feet(or have them protected for them), right?
To continue to insist that humans should maintain their feet exactly as you do your horse's feet only shows one's physiology ignorance.
I don't think it was anyone from the fullcare hoofcare side of the discussion who made this claim. IIRC, it was posed as a philosiphical if not rhetorical question. The rest as they say, is history.
Clearly we have human physicians and animal veterinarians for a very good reason. The species are not comparable and a "one size fits all" blanket cannot be cast with regard to care for each species.
Clear to whom?
So, with this as your new mantra, do you think that every horse should be barefoot 24/7/365, regardless?
For those who insist that "barefooters" should also maintain their own human feet barefoot - may I ask you if you insist we align ourselves with every other aspect of horse husbandry?
Who here has even intimated, let alone insisted on such a silly thing?
Cleary if we must maintain our feet the same, then we must do EVERYTHING else the same! That means we shall lie in the run-in shelter at night to sleep, we will eat the same feed, we will pee and poop in the corner of the paddock,
In an effort to help broaden your world view, it is clearly evident that in some places, that is exactly what happens. Further, in a large part of the world, livestock has much more value and is revered more than human life.
and we will mate with our horses.
Beastiality! Not my cup of tea but whatever floats your boat.
We will abandon all tasts of human civilization and we shall live as a horse does.
In some corners of the world, that would be considered an upgrade in the human standard of living.
We will graze and sleep in the sun, we will quit our jobs, and we will go naked. We will snap our teeth and bite our horses on the shoulder to ask them to move over,
Why quit our jobs? Don't horses have jobs? Or do you perhaps mean we should take over the horse's jobs? And since we already jab all manner of things into our horses shoulders and elsewhere to get them to comply, is it such a stretch to consider biting them?:lol:
and we will patiently await the truck from the funny farm to haul us away.
Speak for yourself. The rest of us have bus passes.
And so if you do not believe these other things to do true, then where exactly do you draw the line?
A good question and one that can best be answered by the 24/7/365 cult.
Why would it ONLY pertain to foot care, and not every other aspect of horse care? ;)
If ya' gotta' ask................

[Auventera Two]

But it's hysterically funny that we have trolling farriers, so how can we refuse to feed the poor things???!! :lol:

:winkgrin: Farriers that need more horses to trim apparently.

[reillyshoe]

Now hold on a minute. I named the thread, and I am sincerely looking for an answer. I have no problem with the idea of bare feet on horses, and, as I have said on this forum in the past, my wife's dressage horse competed to Prix St. George without ever wearing one. For further information on my views, here is an article for you:
www.theFarrierCenter.com

I enjoy discussing hoofcare, and if I have a problem with the individuals on this site, it is that they don't always care to discuss facts and studies, they want to discuss their experience. That is fine, we all have our individual "case studies". I stopped posting here because it was never really a discussion if we cannot include a few facts to all agree on. For example, circulation in the foot is not agreed upon. There are several different ideas on how it all works. If we try to explain the effect of a trim vs shoes on circulation, then we have to reach an impasse because not enough is known on the subject.

I have not argued one point of barefoot logic in this thread, and really do not care to. I am, however interested in why the individuals feel the way they do. I maintain that I see some continuity in the reasonings for barefeet only in horses and humans. If you do not see it, that is OK, but please do not question my motivations- I have tried to express them as honestly as I can.

[Huntertwo]

Cripes, I've been gone for a day and the Bunion is back...Ouch! lol :lol: :lol: :lol:

[PaulBunyon]

Cripes, I've been gone for a day
And we've missed you! No, truely, we've missed you!

[cosmos mom]

Now hold on a minute. I named the thread, and I am sincerely looking for an answer. I have no problem with the idea of bare feet on horses, and, as I have said on this forum in the past, my wife's dressage horse competed to Prix St. George without ever wearing one. For further information on my views, here is an article for you:
www.theFarrierCenter.com

I enjoy discussing hoofcare, and if I have a problem with the individuals on this site, it is that they don't always care to discuss facts and studies, they want to discuss their experience. That is fine, we all have our individual "case studies". I stopped posting here because it was never really a discussion if we cannot include a few facts to all agree on. For example, circulation in the foot is not agreed upon. There are several different ideas on how it all works. If we try to explain the effect of a trim vs shoes on circulation, then we have to reach an impasse because not enough is known on the subject.

I have not argued one point of barefoot logic in this thread, and really do not care to. I am, however interested in why the individuals feel the way they do. I maintain that I see some continuity in the reasonings for barefeet only in horses and humans. If you do not see it, that is OK, but please do not question my motivations- I have tried to express them as honestly as I can.

Do you really believe that you can figure out why people subscribe to barefoot methodology by asking why they don't, in a modern society, just remove their own shoes and frolic freely? Come on! Were all smarter than that! As for my own experience, I am beholden to no methodology except that which works for my horse. In this case, barefoot works well, shoes did not. As I have said before in my other posts, if in the course of competition, my horse eventually needs shoes for traction, I would put them on. Although I believe that many horses can go barefoot (and that far too many wear shoes that don't need them), I also believe that people spend a lot of money on their horses and many would not want to put in the required effort that most horses would take to go barefoot properly. Hey, to each his own! My horse is out 8-12 hours a day, I don't soak his feet, he works 5-6 days a week and has great feet! I still recommend my old farrier to people looking to put shoes on a horse and I wouldn't hesitate to use him again if I went with shoes. I take crap from people that think that I am a barefoot fanatic (simply because my horse is barefoot), but frankly, I am too old to give a crap what people think about my choices. I have watched my horse yank a shoe off under a bell boot. He just does better barefoot. Oh, and I have ugly toes.

[Auventera Two]

Great post cm.

I just want to add that I think most of the time, the issue is that the PEOPLE can't deal with a barefoot horse. The issue is not that the horse cannot deal with being barefoot.

[draft_farrier]

I'd say MORE people can't deal with SHOD horses....and the farriers who shoe them.

[nohafoot]

I have no problem with a barefoot horse I have a horse that is barefoot not because im a barefoot guruu just because its fast to trim him and it don’t pay and until moma cuts me off he will go barefoot or I get tired of hearing her grip. The problem I have is with some barefoot trimmers (not all) just the ones that done a few weeks school or something and now wont to tell a farrier how much better a horse could be without shoes. It happened the other day at a barn on a foundered horse that he had started doing the dang thing was hobbling along and he says see you can ride him now with boots on and starts showing me all these extra pads he put in the boots for padding. The horse did not limp until he started trimming him. Im saying I did not go to him and say hey you need to come over to our side. He come poking in my business if you do barefoot I think that is great I really do I could give a rats ass about what someone else does. Just don’t start in on telling horse owners how they need to go barefoot because they can do the research themselves then if they go that way fine we will never see the day that barefooting will put farriers out of work. Fads have came and went and they always will. Fads bring some good stuff with it and some bad things, but science, art, and common sense will hold true. This is my opinion and they are like you know what every one has got one

[Aggie4Bar]

Maybe a better comparison would have been between horseshoeing and wearing fake nails/tips? At least that way you'd be comparing keratin to keratin. :D

But using the OP's question, it is really a very simple issue where I'm concerned.
Does the horse need shoes? Yes - shoe him. No - Don't shoe him.
Does the human need shoes? Yes - wear shoes. No - Don't wear shoes.
The definition of "need" varies far and wide and has been discussed ad nauseum on this board where hooves are concerned. There will never be an agreement regarding "need". Where people are concerned, "need" blends with "want" and cultural expectations, so any comparison is fuzzy at best.

I do think horseshoeing technology lags pathetically behind everything else. Why, I don't know. Tradition? Familiarity? Fortunately, it's starting to catch up a bit. It's really exciting to me to see the new developments in composite shoes, glue-ons, and boots. There are more options available for horse owners and farriers alike, and the horse is the one who benefits. It is really dang neat to think of all the future possibilities in hoofwear. :yes:

[reillyshoe]

Do you really believe that you can figure out why people subscribe to barefoot methodology by asking why they don't, in a modern society, just remove their own shoes and frolic freely?

Yes, that is pretty much the idea, although I would substitute "mentality" for your term "methodology". To be more specific, I am hoping to understand the view of someone who would not shoe a horse under any circumstance.
Listen, I eat, breathe, and dream about horses feet. I have repeatedly stated that I don't want this to be perceived as insulting to the barefoot world. I would like to think of myself as an open minded farrier, why is this so insulting to you?

[cosmos mom]

Yes, that is pretty much the idea, although I would substitute "mentality" for your term "methodology". To be more specific, I am hoping to understand the view of someone who would not shoe a horse under any circumstance.
Listen, I eat, breathe, and dream about horses feet. I have repeatedly stated that I don't want this to be perceived as insulting to the barefoot world. I would like to think of myself as an open minded farrier, why is this so insulting to you?

Why is it insulting? Read the title of your thread and the childish premice. We are all high school kids in a 'clique'. "Hey, I know, if your horse should go barefoot, why don't you! (snicker, snicker)" As if anyone should have to answer that question for you. In order to address a select group, you insult us all. Methodology is the correct term for what I choose to have done to my horse, as there is a method to it- weather you agree with it or not. There is also a method to shoeing horses. Some people are skilled and some are hacks. This holds true to any skill. Please realize that you are shutting down any "middle of the road" barefooters that may be able to offer you insight or discussion, because at the very root, your posts are meant to be patronizing. It seems like you want to argue and not to hear about other people's experiences. Why not post a thread that asks "What made you turn from traditional farriery and go to barefoot?" If you are really interested from the end user (client's) point of view?

[reillyshoe]

I am sorry that you think this of me. I do not know what constitutes "correct" shoeing, and the fact that we all do things a bit differently might seem to support that position. As I said, I am in favor of barefeet when the horse is sound without shoes, and otherwise I am in favor of shoes. How is that different from your position? How is that insulting to you? I am as much a "middle of the road barefooter" as you. If my attempt to hear the views of the far left offend you, I am sorry, but I can assure you I am not attempting to be patronizing.

[Huntertwo]

Well, I for one am all for barefoot horses. In fact, our barefoot trimmer was out at the barn tonight and we other barefooters just *converted* two other horse owners that were sick of dealing with abcesses, soaking hooves, losing shoes after two weeks etc.

If done correctly, I do believe that most horses can go without shoes. IMO. I think most have problems when the farriers just trim the hoof as they are going to slap a shoe on. A correct barefoot trim is NOT that.

Perhaps some farriers have a problem with this method due to $$$ lost. ;)

[reillyshoe]

[QUOTE=Huntertwo]Well, I for one am all for barefoot horses. QUOTE]

Me too.

[matryoshka]

I don't see meaningful inconsistencies in having different rules for different species with respect to footgear.

I can think of a multitude of horsekeeping practices that would normally be deemed unacceptable for human application.

Gelding springs to mind. ;) :D

I have to admit, the same thought occurred to me. I just didn't have the guts to post it!!! :eek: I work on a lay up farm, and we gelded 6 stallions (2 and 3 year olds) in the last 2 weeks. We don't like how hard it is for the horses, but it sure improves their lives, and it makes it easier to find them homes when they retire off the track.

You just can't apply the same standards to horses and humans. However, I find the barefoot human discussion interesting.

[matryoshka]

Not to be argumentative here, but "clique" is one of the words used by COTHers when they form a group of like-minded individuals. We've got a Trail Queen clique, a hoof-fetish clique, a horse-biters clique, and even a Barbaro clique now. Perhaps RS was just using the word "clique" in the same manner we use it and didn't mean to insult anybody. That's the way I read the title.

I'm one of those middle of the road people. I trim and prefer to keep horses barefoot when possible, but I have no objections to shoes. I also didn't object to RS raising the question, despite the inappropriateness of comparing two vastly different species. I found it interesting.

[Tree]

Now hold on a minute. I named the thread, and I am sincerely looking for an answer. I have no problem with the idea of bare feet on horses....

I don't doubt your sincerety, Reilly. I can appreciate mutual respect. It just seemed odd when you began to include my own feet and how I care for them as one who no longer finds shoeing to be an option for my equines or full-time job as a hoof trimmer.

I enjoy discussing hoofcare, and if I have a problem with the individuals on this site, it is that they don't always care to discuss facts and studies, they want to discuss their experience. That is fine, we all have our individual "case studies". I stopped posting here because it was never really a discussion if we cannot include a few facts to all agree on. For example, circulation in the foot is not agreed upon. There are several different ideas on how it all works. If we try to explain the effect of a trim vs shoes on circulation, then we have to reach an impasse because not enough is known on the subject.

I also enjoy discussing hoofcare. As far as having a problem, it is usually with those who can't keep their focus on the subject and just go to a more personal level. I'd rather keep the cards on the table. I don't mind if people have opinions of hoofcare and hoof function which differ from mine. It would be so boring to only discuss things with ppl who all thought the same way. However, when ppl don't agree and ask questions it seems to create defensiveness vs just continued conversation.

I KNOW there is no one standard for hoofcare and hoof function. Having visited Farrier based forums in the past clearly shows that not everyone agrees any more than a group of barefooters who practice different methods of trimming. There are no clear answers other than what we each have chosen to adhere to. And when you have made a choice, there'll be others who want to get personal about it and sink to levels I don't care to go to. It's a waste of time, IMO.

I have not argued one point of barefoot logic in this thread, and really do not care to. I am, however interested in why the individuals feel the way they do. I maintain that I see some continuity in the reasonings for barefeet only in horses and humans. If you do not see it, that is OK, but please do not question my motivations- I have tried to express them as honestly as I can.

While you haven't argued one point, it hasn't stopped others from doing so. I can appreciate your efforts though. I've not argued with you either. I have questioned your thoughts that a barefooter cannot separate their needs from their horse's though. Maybe it does seem odd that a person who believes in natural horse care wouldn't go barefoot 24/7 as well. It doesn't to me. I see it as two separate things.

As to your motivations for asking questions, it doesn't concern me. It's not easy to show intent in writing.

Tree

[Tree]

The problem I have is with some barefoot trimmers (not all) just the ones that done a few weeks school or something and now wont to tell a farrier how much better a horse could be without shoes. It happened the other day at a barn on a foundered horse that he had started doing the dang thing was hobbling along and he says see you can ride him now with boots on and starts showing me all these extra pads he put in the boots for padding. The horse did not limp until he started trimming him. Im saying I did not go to him and say hey you need to come over to our side. He come poking in my business if you do barefoot I think that is great I really do I could give a rats ass about what someone else does.

I can relate, nohafoot. It's the same feeling I get when anyone goes poking their noses in where it doesn't belong. How much training they've had doesn't matter to me because not all training is the same. Some examples would be when a client, who isn't really solid on the idea of going barefoot, hears a comment from their _ _ _ _ _ _ (insert trainer, friend, BO, Vet, or whatever fits in the blank), and begins to wonder about the trims their horse or horses are getting. In other words, they start to have more doubts than they already did. So they begin to question me about things they should have been studying about already. I don't mind being asked questions but what I do mind are owners who don't do their homework and don't establish something for themselves. In other words, they would rather others do their thinking for them vs making a personal effort. These types tend to flip-flop and can be a real pain to deal with no matter if they have shod or bare footed horses. They are never sure for long if they ever were at all.

I have the ability to stand quietly and observe things being done that I don't agree with. If I'm with others, we wait until we're well away from the situation to openly discuss what we saw. There's no need to make a scene. I've got nothing to prove to people who make choices different than my own. If asked for advise or my opinion, I'll voice it. Otherwise, it's best to just watch.

Just don’t start in on telling horse owners how they need to go barefoot because they can do the research themselves then if they go that way fine we will never see the day that barefooting will put farriers out of work. Fads have came and went and they always will. Fads bring some good stuff with it and some bad things, but science, art, and common sense will hold true. This is my opinion and they are like you know what every one has got one

If farriers can trim bare hooves and maintain horses as barefoot, I've no doubts that they won't lose a job. Hopefully the bad apples will find less work though but that'll only happen as horse owners become more educated about hooves and hoof function. I think we'd all rather see the bad shoers and bad trimmers out of work, right? There will always be circumstances which will require shoes to keep horses going. However, it would be nice to see people coming to the realization that shoes aren't the only option available if their circumstances allow more than one option.

Fads? Yes, there'll be those. How do those get their start though? I think it's through lack of education in some cases. Like when a horse owner assumes a specific shoe was responsible for helping a friend's horse perform better. Or, the same could be true of barefooting methods which appear to enhance a horse's way of going and yet the hooves remain dysfunctional. How will an owner know if something truly works or appears to work? I think it boils down to what they know. The same is true of professionals.

I didn't come by the methods I practice because it was the only one I was ever exposed to. It's been a long journey and it's not over yet.

Tree

[nohafoot]

Is their any barefooters on here that use to shoe, but now only trim? That is who I would like to ask why they went to barefooting. I really take no value in what a barefooter says or does if they have never shoed a horse I know not all barfooters are like this but I think the most reason people try to trim is to do their own horses I would like to know how many trimmers really make a living at. I really can see nothing different that trimmers do that we as farriers have been doing for a long time and I’ve have really looked at this trim I just don’t get it and trimmers I don’t understand if the horse is going to be barefoot and do the whole out 24/7 no grain no nothing then why don’t the people do it why do they cheat if I put a hospital plate on a horse and tell them to keep the horse up not to turn him out only hand graze and the client did not do what I ask I would have to tell them I would not be able to shoe the horse anymore because you undoing what im trying to do for the horse. If a barefooter does the whole stall blanket and every thing what would you do? I think barefooters took parts and pieces of the whole barefoot thing and twisted to the way they like it....and as far as barefooter taking $$$$$ out of our pockets it just will not happen unless you shoe backyard ponys but a horse that jumps works and races will need shoes. I wonder has a shod horse and a barefoot horse been put to the test against each other over the worst terrain one could find?......

[Tree]

To be more specific, I am hoping to understand the view of someone who would not shoe a horse under any circumstance.
Listen, I eat, breathe, and dream about horses feet. I have repeatedly stated that I don't want this to be perceived as insulting to the barefoot world.

In my area, there must be atleast 20 farriers who shoe and trim horses. Their skills vary greatly. However, there are few, if any, who specialize in trimming methods outside of "pasture trims". This is where I saw a need and a niche to fill.

I will not shoe a horse under any circumstances. I don't wish to be trained to do so. My focus is set on working with the bare hoof. I live, eat, breath and sometimes spend nights thinking about feet. I can't really say I have dreamed about them. So we have much in common.

I don't have to learn to shoe horses when there are atleast 20 different farriers in my area that do. Ethically, I couldn't trim hooves for function only to alter that function by applying glued on or nailed on shoes. Add to this, placing a restrictive designed hoof boot on the feet either. What would be the point to trim for function only to inhibit it? If that is what an owner would want, they don't need my services. I have had a few clients who were trying to combine methods and it was just counter productive. An exampe that stands out for me was an owner who kept shoes on her riding horse and would have me pull the shoes and trim the feet only to have a farrier come out 5 days later to reshoe the horse. Now then, my trim would likely compromise the hoof with regards to what the farrier would need in order to set the hooves up for shoes. I'd take more heel where he'd take more toe so the balance wouldn't be the same either. The owner wasn't being fair to either me or to the farrier much less the horse.

At any rate, I know that horses can go barefoot but there will be living conditions which will not support healthy bare feet so some sort of protection will be required. The owner may not find boots to be an option and will go for shoes of some sort. I exercise my rights to choose and see it as the same for everyone else who has the same freedom.

Tree

[Huntertwo]

Is their any barefooters on here that use to shoe, but now only trim? That is who I would like to ask why they went to barefooting. I really take no value in what a barefooter says or does if they have never shoed a horse I know not all barfooters are like this but I think the most reason people try to trim is to do their own horses I would like to know how many trimmers really make a living at. I really can see nothing different that trimmers do that we as farriers have been doing for a long time and I’ve have really looked at this trim I just don’t get it and trimmers I don’t understand if the horse is going to be barefoot and do the whole out 24/7 no grain no nothing then why don’t the people do it why do they cheat if I put a hospital plate on a horse and tell them to keep the horse up not to turn him out only hand graze and the client did not do what I ask I would have to tell them I would not be able to shoe the horse anymore because you undoing what im trying to do for the horse. If a barefooter does the whole stall blanket and every thing what would you do? I think barefooters took parts and pieces of the whole barefoot thing and twisted to the way they like it....and as far as barefooter taking $$$$$ out of our pockets it just will not happen unless you shoe backyard ponys but a horse that jumps works and races will need shoes. I wonder has a shod horse and a barefoot horse been put to the test against each other over the worst terrain one could find?......

To be totally honest, my decision on my first mare was based on money. I was in college and money was kind of tight.

She went beautifully without shoes and we did a ton of trail riding. Also, as far as performance horses *needing* shoes. She was also a terrific Barrel Racing horse. Lack of shoes did not affect her performance at all.

As far as farriers doing the same that Barefooters do, I slightly disagree. I tried different farriers on my horses and they all were sore when they finished trimming. Like I said earlier, they just trimmed like they were going to slap a shoe on. The feet were flat, hence the soreness.

My Barefooter strives for a concave effect, therefore the hoof wall, frog, gets the most concussion. I would never go back to shoes again. No nail holes to cause abcesses, lose shoes, loosing shoes, don't have to worry about mud sucking shoes off.

[Tree]

Is their any barefooters on here that use to shoe, but now only trim? That is who I would like to ask why they went to barefooting. I really take no value in what a barefooter says or does if they have never shoed a horse I know not all barfooters are like this but I think the most reason people try to trim is to do their own horses I would like to know how many trimmers really make a living at.

At first it seemed you were restricting responses to those who have been shoers before and decided to just go to trimming but as I continued to read, you then included full-time trimmers. I am making a living at trimming hooves and have been for the past 6 years. Before then I was trimming part-time for 10 years and still doing some horse training and riding instruction.

I've had horses now for 34 years. For atleast 10 to 15 of those years my horses were shod, sometimes all 4's and in later years on just the fronts. While I didn't nail those shoes on myself, I am familiar with how they were shod by the various farriers we employed during that time. And just so you don't think we changed farriers willy nilly, it was more a matter of who the boarding barns used and who we could find when we moved to another state. I also had opportunities to travel with some farriers while I was learning more about what they did. How I came to start trimming was because my last farrier was moving out of town and at that same time I wanted to learn how to trim hooves. I was also filling out an application to enrole in the KY Farrier's School because I thought I wanted to also learn how to shoe professionally. However those plans changed when I began to hear about specific barefooting methods that didn't appear to be the same as the pasture trim I'd been learning.


I really can see nothing different that trimmers do that we as farriers have been doing for a long time and I’ve have really looked at this trim I just don’t get it ......

I can but then I guess it depends on what sorts of trims you're making the comparisons with. The pasture trim I was taught involved nippering any wall above the sole off. It also meant removing dead sole and tattered bits of frog and then beveling the outer wall edges to finish. However, when it came to the hoof balance I would end up with more weight forced onto the toe. My training was basic and according to the conditions of my herd's feet. I received more hands-on training when I became responsible for the care of two foundered horses. The same farrier was supervising their care. The type of trim work I did back then was very different to what I now do. And I definitely see differences in how the bars are trimmed when comparing various trim methods, including pasture trims.

and trimmers I don’t understand if the horse is going to be barefoot and do the whole out 24/7 no grain no nothing then why don’t the people do it why do they cheat if I put a hospital plate on a horse and tell them to keep the horse up not to turn him out only hand graze and the client did not do what I ask I would have to tell them I would not be able to shoe the horse anymore because you undoing what im trying to do for the horse.

I'm not sure about the "no grain" part as that isn't true of all barefoot methodology. Oats are a grain. I've heard of feeding nothing but straight oats before. I'm not sure I quite follow what you're getting at with the cheating part. As a trimmer I could not trim for someone who keeps their horses stalled up on deep bedding. It would undo what my efforts are trying to provide. Maybe that's what you were saying. There'll be circumstances under which you can't work for people. We're opposites if you require stalling and limited exercise when I require 24/7 with an open stall access situation and no deep footing.

If a barefooter does the whole stall blanket and every thing what would you do? I think barefooters took parts and pieces of the whole barefoot thing and twisted to the way they like it....and as far as barefooter taking $$$$$ out of our pockets it just will not happen unless you shoe backyard ponys but a horse that jumps works and races will need shoes. I wonder has a shod horse and a barefoot horse been put to the test against each other over the worst terrain one could find?......

I would not be employed by a horse owner who stalls and blankets their horse. It is not considered natural to the horse to be confined and clothed.

I am not sure what the "twisting" part means. My clients are not restricted to "backyard pony" owners. They vary from those who regularly do competitive trail, trail ride for pleasure, recovering from laminitis, founder and navicular (disease, syndrome) or other lameness issues. Not all of the cases I rehab recover to 100% again. Getting them comfortable (pasture sound) is sometimes the best that can be expected in the worst cases. I don't take on cases that are clearly beyond help and are suffering. It's not that I want successful cases only, it's that I don't want to take people's money and give them false hopes when the animal is beyond help other than euthanizing.

As far as racing horses, no I don't live in an area where you'd find those other than the OTTB's or retired STB's. As to how one would "test" a horse's hooves, it would depend on the circumstances surrounding each horse. There are horses that compete heavily with bare feet. However, not all competitions allow barefooted horses to enter. Not all competitions allow hoof boots. So some "tests" take place where barefooted horses are allowed to compete.

Tree

[cosmos mom]

I am sorry that you think this of me. I do not know what constitutes "correct" shoeing, and the fact that we all do things a bit differently might seem to support that position. As I said, I am in favor of barefeet when the horse is sound without shoes, and otherwise I am in favor of shoes. How is that different from your position? How is that insulting to you? I am as much a "middle of the road barefooter" as you. If my attempt to hear the views of the far left offend you, I am sorry, but I can assure you I am not attempting to be patronizing.

Thanks for that. I see your perspective now. I guess I just prefer the straight question as opposed to one that is tongue in cheek. The funny thing from my perspective is that "extreme" shoers seem to have a lot in common with "extreme" barefooters. There was a quote (I forget where read it) that said "The orthodox of every religion have more in common with each other than they do with their own religion" I always found that interesting. I think sometimes people argue extremes when that is not in practice how most people feel ;)- like politics!

[nohafoot]

huntetwo
how often did you work your barrel horse what was your training like how much work in the week tell us how many times a day you worked the horse and for how long....and I think you said it right that money was the whole objective to the barefoot for you huntetwo but I really and whole heartily believe that a horse that is used and Im not talking about as a pet with the ride around the back yard or up a trail or two but the working horse that is trained to win and move up higher and higher the sport horse will hurt barefoot just like top athletes wear shoes for their sport so does the horse I hate to shoe the backyard horse I know they are loved and cared for but thats just me I don’t care to shoe those kind I like to fool with a horse that is earning his kept.

[cosmos mom]

huntetwo
how often did you work your barrel horse what was your training like how much work in the week tell us how many times a day you worked the horse and for how long....and I think you said it right that money was the whole objective to the barefoot for you huntetwo but I really and whole heartily believe that a horse that is used and Im not talking about as a pet with the ride around the back yard or up a trail or two but the working horse that is trained to win and move up higher and higher the sport horse will hurt barefoot just like top athletes wear shoes for their sport so does the horse I hate to shoe the backyard horse I know they are loved and cared for but thats just me I don’t care to shoe those kind I like to fool with a horse that is earning his kept.

My horse is ridden 5-6 days a week. He jumps 1-2 days a week (up to 3'3") and he competes in horse trials which require dressage, stadium jumping and cross country. We also hunter pace which is all different terrain, 8-10 miles at a clip. No hoof boots.

[Huntertwo]

huntetwo
how often did you work your barrel horse what was your training like how much work in the week tell us how many times a day you worked the horse and for how long....and I think you said it right that money was the whole objective to the barefoot for you huntetwo but I really and whole heartily believe that a horse that is used and Im not talking about as a pet with the ride around the back yard or up a trail or two but the working horse that is trained to win and move up higher and higher the sport horse will hurt barefoot just like top athletes wear shoes for their sport so does the horse I hate to shoe the backyard horse I know they are loved and cared for but thats just me I don’t care to shoe those kind I like to fool with a horse that is earning his kept.

nohafoot,
I still don't understand how you can compare a human foot to a horse HOOF...:confused:

As far as my Barrel horse? Yes, money was the main objective at the time when I was in my early 20's. If she needed them, I would have certainly put them back on. But she didn't.
My farrier even had the #alls to call me cheap!
My horse was worked all the time, at least 4 times a week. And trail ridden hard also. That was back in the days (when I was much braver;) ) when I would do a full out gallop on a good stretch of trail on a daily basis.

As far as competing? She was practically unbeatable. If you want I could post you a pictures of my dozens of Championship ribbons and trophies.:)

[nohafoot]

I 100% agree that a dressage some small jumping and light work horses can go barefoot and some heavy worked horses but a lot cant I don’t understand if you guys are going to do hoof work why not put in the time and effort to do it all be able to do a lot have a lot to offer your clients why be limited to just a trim and a boot. As far as a barrel horse I’ve seen some run barefoot and mabey place in 4d or 3d but if a horse feels like he is sliding he will shorten his stride now that is what I have seen but why not offer at least a working knowledge of farrier science why not attend clinics and find out both sides but I really cant see much difference in the trim most farriers do and the bare foot trim and I said most farriers I really think a lot of horse owners got a run of bad farriers and they get a bad taste in their mouth. That is understandable it would me to, but as farriers we should be learning the whole time there are a lot of resources out there to learn from and farriers should take advantage of it. I’ve really tried to find good in the trim and I have, but the bad taste in my mouth comes from bad trimmers just like bad farriers but the way I see it their are lot of farriers and not a lot of trimmers and out of 5 trimmers 3 will be complete bone heads imo I just think that if you trim you should be able to offer something to the clients because the list that your talking about of great barefoot horses will be small to the list of of great shod horses and you say move forward in time with the trim that is move backwards your trying to invent the wheel all over. We all agree that some horses can go barefoot but trimmers have a hard time understanding that not all horses can not. Have you ever looked at the client and said I think we need a farrier more than likely not. Someone said that their farrier trys to get the foot concaved what if its a really flat foot horse and you par away and blood then what? No concave that that person was talking about what do you do from there?

[LMH]

It is perfectly acceptable to 'house' horses in a 12x12 cage where they poop and pee and often sleep in it...should humans be expected to do the same?

[Lookout]

Is their any barefooters on here that use to shoe, but now only trim? That is who I would like to ask why they went to barefooting. I really take no value in what a barefooter says or does if they have never shoed a horse I know not all barfooters are like this but I
Yes there 'is' barefooters on her that 'use' to shoe but now only trim. One of theirs name is Donnie.

[Lookout]

It is perfectly acceptable to 'house' horses in a 12x12 cage where they poop and pee and often sleep in it...should humans be expected to do the same?

I was giving a trimming lecture to a bunch of kids last week at a barn where I trim and some of the horse's are in cages, oops stalls. One of the kids asked a question about a horse going back to its cage or some such thing, and was sternly reprimanded by the BO that in no way shape or form was it a cage and she was to refer to it only as a stall. The girl was terrified because she knew she had done something wrong, but had no idea what. But, you know she won't say cage again.

[reillyshoe]

Again, just to be clear, the point of this thread is not "do unto your horse as you would do to yourself". I am not looking for exact parallels, but rather cosistancy in logic. For example, if you analyze your horses diet and are opposed to preservatizes in your horses food, wouldn't it be inconsistant to eat twinkies yourself? I am not suggesting you, as an owner, forage all day in a field of timothy just because it might be good for your horse. It would, however, be consistant thought to shop in the organic aisle of the food store if you oppose preservatives in your horses food.

To return to feet.
Let's assume that horseshoes change the shape and function of a horses foot. (This might or might not be true, but I have heard the argument from enough people opposed to horseshoes to believe THEY think it is true). Let's assume that horse's feet are always capable of adjusting to life without shoes.
Now consider that shoes affect the function and development of OUR feet. Lets acknowledge that, since many people in the world never wear shoes, that shoes are "over-used" among humans.
One very logical point is to decide to wear shoes (humans) as needed, based upon need, problems, environment, etc. I am fine with this as an explanation, and it is exactly the approach I take with horses. If you oppose the use of horseshoes in ALL circumstances, I am curious as to your logical approach to wearing shoes yourself.
Does this make sense without being offensive to those liking barefeet in horses? Can you understand why I am asking? So far, the only one to asswer the question is Tree (thank you), in saying she equates human shoes to hoof boots and applies as needed. I might (or not) agree with the answer, but at least I understand her logic. Thanks for that, Tree.
Anyone who opposes shoes AND/OR boots on horses here?

[Tree]

Again, just to be clear, the point of this thread is not "do unto your horse as you would do to yourself". I am not looking for exact parallels, but rather cosistancy in logic. For example, if you analyze your horses diet and are opposed to preservatizes in your horses food, wouldn't it be inconsistant to eat twinkies yourself? I am not suggesting you, as an owner, forage all day in a field of timothy just because it might be good for your horse. It would, however, be consistant thought to shop in the organic aisle of the food store if you oppose preservatives in your horses food.


The "Foot Logic" that I apply to my horses is similar to my own however my lifestyle isn't suited to going barefoot 24/7 as it is for my equines so I cannot go barefoot 24/7 like they do.

To return to feet.
Let's assume that horseshoes change the shape and function of a horses foot. (This might or might not be true, but I have heard the argument from enough people opposed to horseshoes to believe THEY think it is true).

For bare hooves that are trimmed to allow more function than bare hooves whose form inhibits function, shoes do alter function. Pollitt's Hoof Studies video showed examples of how hoof preparation affects function. The examples to show how shoes alter function didn't include nailed on shoes but rather wedges and frog plates instead.

So my thoughts about altered hoof function are based upon personal observations and a limited amount of studies.

Let's assume that horse's feet are always capable of adjusting to life without shoes.

Under favorable conditions, yes. I wouldn't make an assumption that ALL circumstances allow horses to grow healthy hooves though any more than I would assume that all "sound" barefooted horses are without hoof dysfunction.

Now consider that shoes affect the function and development of OUR feet. Lets acknowledge that, since many people in the world never wear shoes, that shoes are "over-used" among humans.
One very logical point is to decide to wear shoes (humans) as needed, based upon need, problems, environment, etc. I am fine with this as an explanation, and it is exactly the approach I take with horses. If you oppose the use of horseshoes in ALL circumstances, I am curious as to your logical approach to wearing shoes yourself.

This seems like the same thing you've been trying to figure out all along.

Ok, I think it depends on how functional the feet were before shoes were applied as to how much the shoes will affect a human's feet. I'm not going to assume that ppl who have never worn shoes necessarily have healthy feet. They may have fallen arches and are very flat footed. I would have to know what the "ideal" is for human feet to know how my own compared.

Getting back to your logic, I wear shoes as needed, yes. As this relates to my horses, I don't see "shoes" as an option any longer...not when there are HOOF BOOTS. I would apply HOOF BOOTS as needed vs consider nail or glue-on shoes. It follows right along with the logic I use for my footwear needs. The hoof boots would protect the horse's hooves and yet not inhibit their ability to function. The same is true about my choices in footwear. They don't restrict the abilities of my feet to expand when weighted. They don't throw my natural balance off either.

Does this make sense without being offensive to those liking barefeet in horses? Can you understand why I am asking?

I see nothing offensive in this post. It'd make more sense, to me, if you substitute hoof boots in the place of shoes. Shoes make sense from your perspective and I understand that. Boots make sense from my perspective. I think I understand why you're asking. I hope the replies begin to help you understand how some folks can leave shoes off the list of options.

Tree

[reillyshoe]

Tree:
I'm not going to assume that ppl who have never worn shoes necessarily have healthy feet. They may have fallen arches and are very flat footed. I would have to know what the "ideal" is for human feet to know how my own compared.

Right. Do we know what the "ideal" form or morphology of the horse's foot is? Again, referencing the barefoot line, should the "natural", or "feral" hoof be used as an example of "ideal"? Wouldn't cosistent logic suggest using the "natural"human foot as an "ideal"? I point this out because some barefoot theories advocate a foot shape (like a wide frog) as being more important than soundness. Do you agree?

[matryoshka]

Are Zebra feet close enough to horse hooves to be used as a comparison? Their coffin bones appear smaller, but other than that, I've got no idea if they are similar enough to use as a model for an "ideal hoof". Pardon me if that is a silly question. Also, has a study ever been done of Preswalski horse (can't remember the spelling, sorry) hooves? Aren't they the only truly wild horse left? Have domestic breeds been changed to the point that it would no longer be a valid comparison?

Honestly, I think the best specimens for study are the horses we trim. Not that we "experiment" on them per se, but to a certain extent, we try something and see how the horse and hoof responds. If a horse has long narrow feet, whether they got that way through genetics or poor hoof care, that is the reality for that particular horse. He may never reach the "ideal" and it would be cruel to try to make him.

I can easily see how early shoeing (while the horse is still growing) can inhibit proper growth, especially if the shoes are left too long between resets or fit too tight for looks. The human comparison would be the culture that used to wrap women's feet to keep them small and graceful. I can see that possiblity. But when the horse is an adult, are properly applied shoes going to morph the hoof into a bad shape? It boils down to a good trim before the shoes are applied, too. Bad trims can do as much damage as a poor shoeing job.

One of the reasons I have chosen not to shoe is that I want to be as sure as possible that I can do a good trim before I nail a shoe onto a hoof. Now I don't know that I want to shoe at all. There is a whole lot more to learn about shoeing in addition to trimming.

[chism]

I was giving a trimming lecture to a bunch of kids last week at a barn where I trim and some of the horse's are in cages, oops stalls. One of the kids asked a question about a horse going back to its cage or some such thing, and was sternly reprimanded by the BO that in no way shape or form was it a cage and she was to refer to it only as a stall. The girl was terrified because she knew she had done something wrong, but had no idea what. But, you know she won't say cage again.

Out of the mouths of babes......
Semantics aside....it is a cage with a nicer name.

[Tree]

Right. Do we know what the "ideal" form or morphology of the horse's foot is?

Reilly,

Does anyone really know what an "ideal" healthy hoof shape should be like? For myself, I agree with, daring to type her name, Strasser's findings and references she has found to support it. I know there is a large division between the various ideals so one has to choose which to go along with. I've made my choice and my work tests it repeatedly. The results have supported it. It'd be nice when "Science" begins to confirm it but so much depends on what is being studied and by whom, IMO. Form relates to function.

Again, referencing the barefoot line, should the "natural", or "feral" hoof be used as an example of "ideal"?

Which "natural" hoof form though? Hooves adapt according to conditions. There is no ONE ideal hoof form. Again, it appears to be a matter of making a choice and testing it out, IMO.

Wouldn't cosistent logic suggest using the "natural"human foot as an "ideal"? I point this out because some barefoot theories advocate a foot shape (like a wide frog) as being more important than soundness. Do you agree?

Logic isn't necessarily based on consistent info if there is more than one example which would qualify. Which example of a human's foot would represent the ideal? I think it would vary according to a human's living conditions just as hoof form varies according to living conditions. Structurally, either likely starts off on equal ground at birth but then it's a matter of use as to how the feet/hooves develope from there.

I don't know if a "wide frog" alone could be used to determine soundness or how a hoof functions. I can think of cases where I've encountered wide frogs that were such because they were not being trimmed so there was too much excess. How could I know there was excess frog? There were other things about the entire hoof to consider. So I could not agree to single out the frog width as a way to determine the soundness of a hoof or it's function. There is so much more to examine in how that frog relates to the rest of the hoof.

Tree

[Tree]

Are Zebra feet close enough to horse hooves to be used as a comparison? Their coffin bones appear smaller, but other than that, I've got no idea if they are similar enough to use as a model for an "ideal hoof". Pardon me if that is a silly question. Also, has a study ever been done of Preswalski horse (can't remember the spelling, sorry) hooves? Aren't they the only truly wild horse left? Have domestic breeds been changed to the point that it would no longer be a valid comparison?

I don't know because I've not had the opportunity, yet, to look closely at Zebra hooves, dead or alive. I mean, it would be nice to have a chance to work on Zebra hooves to see what they're like AND dissect Zebra cadavers to examine their bones. However, determining the overal health of the feet would depend on what a healthy ideal is for zebra hooves. I know that donkey coffin bones are smaller in relation to the hoof capsule. Their hooves are so much thicker leaving less space inside for the bones to occupy, or so it seems according to my findings. It's inconclusive though. I need access to more donkey cadavers to compare.

I am not aware of studies focusing on the Preswalski horse (not sure about the spelling either), hooves and how they compare to domestic hooves. I don't know that domestic breeds are that changed either. I do know that outside factors cause hoof morphisms to take place. Studies would have to prove how the structures compare at birth until death taking in all that the animal was subject to during its life. That would be a long ongoing study and expensive to fund, I should think.

Honestly, I think the best specimens for study are the horses we trim. Not that we "experiment" on them per se, but to a certain extent, we try something and see how the horse and hoof responds. If a horse has long narrow feet, whether they got that way through genetics or poor hoof care, that is the reality for that particular horse. He may never reach the "ideal" and it would be cruel to try to make him.

I agree and I believe that's why hoof trimming could fall under the list of "Practices" (non-medical, of course). It's how I've tested various techniques and methods used to trim hooves. With live hooves you have the opportunity to see the results of things you tried. However, you can also tweak things you try to see if it changes the results...particularly if the results were not favorable just to see if it was something to do with the application or something to do with the technique itself.

When I encounter horses having unnaturally narrow hooves, if it means the widest parts of the hooves are narrowed, then I don't tend to expect them to widen out and become 100%. If it's a fairly young horse...maybe around the age of 10...and I have the opportunity to care for its hooves long-term, I will watch to see if the hooves do widen out more. When dissecting hooves I have found additional bone to areas of the coffin bone where quarter walls had been flared. So there is nothing to suggest that hooves couldn't widen over time. It's a wait 'n see thing for me vs a "it'll never happen" deal. I don't worry about the genes, it's just the here and now part. If I placed more importance on hoof conditions being related to genes, I might not 'try' to change anything at all. I could miss out on something important, IMO. Hooves can change for good or bad and that's a fact for me. So there is always the chance of setting the hoof up, as it is, to change for better or worse....my goal is for the better.

I can easily see how early shoeing (while the horse is still growing) can inhibit proper growth, especially if the shoes are left too long between resets or fit too tight for looks. The human comparison would be the culture that used to wrap women's feet to keep them small and graceful. I can see that possiblity. But when the horse is an adult, are properly applied shoes going to morph the hoof into a bad shape? It boils down to a good trim before the shoes are applied, too. Bad trims can do as much damage as a poor shoeing job.

The wrapping of women's feet is for the purpose of keeping their feet tiny (and maybe there's more to it than that). How well can these women move? But I don't think, or really want to believe, that ppl would purposely want to stunt hooves to keep them small. I don't know that small hooves are truly a goal when it isn't logical in the first place. "No hoof, no horse." Were small hooves a fad? If so, how did it ever get its start....in a showring?

Tree

[matryoshka]

Hmmmm. If small hooves aren't considered attractive by at least some breeders and judges, then there wouldn't be as many small hooved QH's. Whether this is achieved through selective breeding or early shoeing matters little to an adult horse whose feet are too small for his body mass. There are plenty of them out there, so I would think it is a "fashion." I've also seen quite a few horses bred for halter and never ridden. So the "no hoof no horse" idea fails when these animals are bred strictly for looks rather than performance. Some of these animals are also used for breeding, never having been ridden. Seems contrary to common sense, to me.

[Tree]

Hmmmm. If small hooves aren't considered attractive by at least some breeders and judges, then there wouldn't be as many small hooved QH's. Whether this is achieved through selective breeding or early shoeing matters little to an adult horse whose feet are too small for his body mass. There are plenty of them out there, so I would think it is a "fashion." I've also seen quite a few horses bred for halter and never ridden. So the "no hoof no horse" idea fails when these animals are bred strictly for looks rather than performance. Some of these animals are also used for breeding, never having been ridden. Seems contrary to common sense, to me.

Lordy, if small hooves are what judges are awarding points for, they should be forced to wear something on their feet that would feel the same way those hooves do on those horses and NOT be able to take them off either. It may have more to do with how small feet affect the way these horses move. I mean, I'm thinking about the WP classes and the unnatural way the winning horses were moving. To me, it was rather vulgar to watch...robotic-like mechanical dis-jointed motions where nothing appeared to be in sync. The slower the better too which is a far cry from what western horses were originally bred to do....work! This is why I suspect it was something to do with show horses that small hooves became so damn popular. Whatever wins is what they shoot for. I sure hope the foundation QH classes have horses with suitably sized feet...polar opposites to the "tea-cups".

Tree

[reillyshoe]

In case anyone recalls the conversation, personal communication with the author has clarified one area of confusion- Less robust toes in humans result from one individual wearing shoes (it is not an evolutionary trait, but changes person to person when shoes are worn).

Also, from a new book on the Bounty, there is a reference to the feet of the British sailors, and the fact that there feet were still distinctly different from the natives after two years on Pitcairn Island.

[matryoshka]

Your first sentence would support the claim that shoes weaken horses' feet over time. If it can happen to humans, one would think it can happen to horses, too.

And does your second sentence mean that the changes (i.e. weakening of the toes) were not reversible in humans?

[reillyshoe]

I take the first studt to mean that shoes change the foot shape in humans. I have no doubt that shoes also change the shape of horses feet. If you ascribe to the idea that the natural model of horses feet is preferable to the changes from shoeing, you might consider taking off your own shoes to return your feet to a more natural condition. Fair enough?

The second (Bounty) comment might show the length of time required to return feet to a "natural condition". If human feet remained different after two years of conditioning, it might either take longer, or it might not return to natural at all. In a horse sense, the conditioning process might be similar in length. While I have great respect for Bowker's work, it remains unproven that we can alter the location and number of blood vessels in the lateral cartiledge by removing shoes. Those might not change after 20 years of living barefoot.

[matryoshka]

Reillyshoe, I'm not a barefoot only person. :) If a hoof needs the support of a shoe, however it got that way (genetics or too-early shoeing), it needs a shoe. I need shoes, and so I wear them. However, I do find that sometimes hoof health seems to improve when the hoof is given a break from shoes. Don't know why, but it just seems to. I've got a number of temporary clients who are giving their horses a break from shoes while they look for a farrier. I can't help them find one, because the best guys around (that I know of) are not taking new clients. I can't in good conscience recommend a shoer whose work I do not like.

I guess the question is whether some of the changes made by shoes are irreversible. I would think that it would mostly be the case in horses shod too young and not reshod often enough to allow for bone growth. I've seen a couple of horses who were treated this way. In these cases, it was the owners, not the farrier, who insisted the horse wear shoes--for halter classes.

I take my own shoes off whenever I can. If I do say so myself, I've got pretty toes. :winkgrin:

[Rick Burten]

I guess the question is whether some of the changes made by shoes are irreversible. I would think that it would mostly be the case in horses shod too young and not reshod often enough to allow for bone growth. I've seen a couple of horses who were treated this way. In these cases, it was the owners, not the farrier, who insisted the horse wear shoes--for halter classes.

Yesterday, I was at a new account. One of the horses an ~13 yr old gelding, country pleasure division horse has very, very contracted feet. Not just the heels, but the whole foot. No reaction to hoof testers either before or after he was trimmed. Because of the conventions of the show ring, and the division he shows in, shoes are necessary. Discusses the problems with the trainer and owner and have their agreement that as soon as Nationals are over in a couple of months, the shoes come off , the horse is trimmed and turned out (he now spends most of his time stalled) and allowed unrestricted movement in a large pasture/paddock(10+ acres) in the company of his kind. I do not know whether or not we will accomplish much in the realm of decontraction. In the mid to late spring, he will again come in, be shod and go back into training. Time will tell.
If I do say so myself, I've got pretty toes.
Sorry, but your merely saying it doesn't necessarily make it so. We will need photographic proof to coroberate your statement. Since many here are 'naturalists', please provide photos that are not obscured by any nail polishes or the like. :D

[matryoshka]

Do bruises count? I've got a lovely picture of my foot after my husband's horse mashed it for me. The whole thing turned a lovely shade of lavender, with a sprinkling of black and red. Alas, some of the deformation seems to be permanent--though radiographs said there was no fracture. The soft tissue has formed some unlovely masses, though. My right foot, however, is unmarred by any equine intervention, other than a recurring bruise caused by my inability to get out of the way when elderly equine clients lose their balance and seem to find the exact same spot on my foot to land.

My husband and a fellow engineer are currently designing ballistic braces for knees and elbows. I want his next project to be shoes that protect the toes and instep from crushing. Maybe they can use ceramic tiles (the ballistic kind, not bathroom tiles) that will crack rather than deform when subjected to trauma.

[Rick Burten]

My husband and a fellow engineer are currently designing ballistic braces for knees and elbows. I want his next project to be shoes that protect the toes and instep from crushing. Maybe they can use ceramic tiles (the ballistic kind, not bathroom tiles) that will crack rather than deform when subjected to trauma.
Pam,

Have you not yet heard about steel/safety toed shoes/sneakers/boots? Even better, shoes and boots that have a steel/safety toes and metatarsal protection, either external or internal.

I wear a pair of these boots that are built on a lightweight hiking boot platform. I have found that the regular boots are way too heavy, especially at the end of the day.

Here's a link to a website that sells the boots I wear. You can also use Google and type in "metatarsal protection work boots" and you should get several other places to look.

http://workingperson.com/products/22_23_31/1/1934/Mens_Nautilus_N1522_Met_Guard_Black_Work_Boot.html

This is the best price I have found for these boots. The one change I make is to take the boots to the shoe repair place and have the top eyelets replaced with speed lace hooks. Costs me another $5.00 +/- but its well worth it.

[Thomas_1]

I also wear steel toe capped boots all day every day. In my case because I have steel plate and pins in one ankle I have to cut away a hole in the soft cuff ankle support.

[matryoshka]

Thanks for the link! I used to wear steel toed shoes when I did ballistic testing (required on the firing range) but was cautioned against using them around horses. The reason given was that when something hits the toe hard enough to deform the steel, the toes are trapped. Don't know how hard a steel toe must be hit to do that, but I didn't like the image.

BTW, the foot crunching incident was sort of a riding accident and didn't happen while trimming. I jumped off my horse (husband's warmblood) to help a rider in distress and he spooked and landed on my foot. The other rider made out better than I did. Since I was the trail guide and it was a benefit ride (people paid money to go), I had to do the ride anyway and didn't get medical attention for my foot for a number of hours. Still can't keep the darn foot in a stirrup for long. :( Will definitely look into the boots. Thanks!

[Thomas_1]

Don't know who told you NOT to wear them but that sounds like the sort of irrational argument that some of the stark staring mad make that advocate not wearing protective horse riding helmets, seat belts in cars or crash helmets on motorbikes.

Trust me you are much much much better off with a horse standing on a steel toe capped boot than you are with it on your foot.

And if its standing on it with such full force that its crushing an International Safety Standard steel toe cap, then if you didn't have the boot on you'd be minus the whole of the end of your foot anyway.

I never do ground work with horses without steel toe capped boots on but then I work with them for a living and need my toes and feet for a long time yet ;)

[Rick Burten]

Don't know who told you NOT to wear them but that sounds like the sort of irrational argument that some of the stark staring mad make that advocate not wearing protective horse riding helmets, seat belts in cars or crash helmets on motorbikes.

Trust me you are much much much better off with a horse standing on a steel toe capped boot than you are with it on your foot.

And if its standing on it with such full force that its crushing an International Safety Standard steel toe cap, then if you didn't have the boot on you'd be minus the whole of the end of your foot anyway.

I never do ground work with horses without steel toe capped boots on but then I work with them for a living and need my toes and feet for a long time yet ;)

I agree wholeheartedly! In over 30 years of trimming and shoeing horses, only once have I had a safety toe deform such that I had to cut the boot off. And I'm glad I had to do that because like Thomas said, had I not been wearing the safety toed boot, I'd be minus at least half my foot and maybe more. $90.00 is cheap insurance to pay to protect my feet.

[matryoshka]

Agreed. The boots look to be exactly what I need, and $90 is cheaper than x-rays! I appreciate the advice. I shoulda realized that if they are required on a test range where heavy machinery or pieces of a vehicle can fall on one's feet, then a horse won't do much worse damage to a boot. I'll keep my toes nice and pretty now. Hope it isn't too late for the rest of my foot! It looks like there is a style with the metatarsal protection that my even be suitable for riding. Price goes up, but really, what are a few dollars compared to long term soundness? ;)

[Thomas_1]

http://www.equiworld.net/uk/ezine/0202/equitector.htm

This might help you. My grooms have equitector jodhpur boots to ride in and they're good and long lasting.

Mind you don't know if they do western cowboy boots? ;)

[matryoshka]

:lol: I don't ride western. I've had to switch to an endurance saddle built on a western tree because it supports my damaged hip joint (happened in my mid-20's while breaking a neurotic horse). I prefer English, but my right leg goes numb after about 20 minutes in the saddle--not very safe. A friend suggested I try riding sidesaddle so I can get back to jumping and maybe low-level eventing. Haven't tried it yet, though. I think I'll explore endurance riding first. My OTTB needs the mileage--he's a little too much of a clown to try in a sidesaddle any time soon.

I have an old small pony that drives, which is a lot of fun. Sadly, her stifles are bothering her too much to ask her to pull a cart anymore. I saw the pic in your profile. WoW! I attended one combined driving event, and was seriously impressed with the horses, drivers, and grooms. One 4-horse team managed to run into a post between the two lead horses, flipping one of the horses around until he faced the rest of the team. He was trying to rear and buck. We thought they were done for the day, but the grooms got out, realigned the horse, and off they went. That is some serious horsemanship.

I'll look into the website you provided, too. Thanks!

[EqTrainer]

Back to your original question..

there are no serious questions!

[Auventera Two]

Don't know how much weight this carries, but Myth Busters did the steel toed boot thing and found out that it took like 10,000 pounds or something, of steel dropped onto a steel toed boot in order to make it cut the toes off. Under normal wear, dropping up to a ton of weight onto the toe didn't cause it to do anything more than get a small dent. So they busted the myth that steel toes will cut your toes off - unless you're talking about serious massive weight falling.

[matryoshka]

Thanks TS. Wish I'd seen that episode. I'd like to know how large the weight was, since the area would make a difference. I was considering the weight of a full sized horse concentrated into about 1/2 square-inch and how much force that might bring to bear on the steel toe.

As for barefooters going barefoot, there don't seem to be any takers. They are refusing to make the comparison. Sorry Reillyshoe, we really got off track here, huh.

[Rick Burten]

: my damaged hip joint (happened in my mid-20's while breaking a neurotic horse).
Sounds more like the horse broke you. :eek: :)

Having work boots with the metatarsal protection as well as the safety toe will really serve you well. I wear regular shoes until I get to my first stop of the day, then I put on the combat gear. At the end of the day, I put my shoes back on for the (often) long drive home. I suppose I could just drive either barefoot or in socks, but some BUAtista might see and report me to the BUA police. Can't have that now, can we?

[Flying Hearts]

That TV show called Myth Busters did one on steel toe boots and what it takes to crush one onto your foot...basically, you're better off with the boots on. It was really interesting though, watch it if you get the chance.

[matryoshka]

Yep Rick, the horse broke me. I learned a lot from training him, though, so it wasn't a total loss. ;)

It took us three years to get that horse going in a semi-safe manner. He was a gorgeous mover, and my dressage instructor wanted me to show him and try to sell him. She thought we could get maybe 20K for him (I wouldn't have paid $500 for him). I told her I didn't think he'd be safe at a show. She disbelieved me until she got on him to demonstrate something, and he shot sideways with her--one of his favorite tricks. She'd never seen that particular maneuver from him, got off as soon as he came to a standsill (about 50 feet away), and never asked me to show him again. I don't think bystanders at a show would expect a horse to come blasting at them sideways. As the rider, I'd be the safest person at the show. Unacceptable.

He was my mother's horse, home bred. Wasn't quite right in the head, even as a foal. I retired him shortly after getting him going well, once I was sure he wasn't ever going to be very safe, and he lived to be 22. Made a nice pasture ornament. :D At least I wasn't paying his feed and vet bills. He was a gorgeous mover until the day he died--made younger horses look stiff and stilted by comparison.

It might be fun to show up at my next trimming appointment in bare feet. Then put my shoes on. :lol: :lol: I get the creepy crawlies whenever I even think about going near a horse with bare feet or sandals. Same kind of feeling I get when I think about riding without a hard hat. Accidents happen SO easily, even when one isn't doing the stupid things that usually get me hurt. I almost never do the same dumb thing twice, but the problem is that there are so many dumb things to do!! :winkgrin: