HR 503 (anti slaughter bill) on July 25

[SEPowell]

If you'd like to support this bill please go to (http://www.horse-protection.org/) .

Passing this bill will not threaten fox hunting in any way. I'm an avid foxhunter with the Genesee Valley Hunt and I'm certain of this information!!! It is supported by the racing industry and is the result of many many racing fans/owners/breeders/trainers/horse lovers, etc who want to keep thoroughbreds, and all horses, out of slaughter.

[Hunter's Rest]

Doubt you'll find too much support in this room. Just a guess.

[SEPowell]

That surprizes me. Most of the people I hunt with in NY support it. Maybe because we all hunt thoroughbreds??

[BeverlyAStrauss]

For those of you who think that the anti horse slaughter movement will translate into anti-hunting and no more meat consumption, IMHO I think you have listened to too many pro slaughter special interest groups who are trying to sway your opinion. I just dont see the connection. We all know that foxhunting in this country is more foxchasing, on the backs of our trusty mounts! I dont mean to offend anyone, but if you love your horses, you should support this bill! It may not end slaughter bc people will always find a way around anything, but it sure should put a kink in the pipeline and make it a little harder to just dump a horse at an auction to await his fate. It may also force us to find an les expensive way to humanely euthanize horses that need to be put down. At any rate, it will force a little responsibility on the shoulders of horse owners who dont want to put an effort into placing a horse......

[county]

So tell me if we don't support the bill does that mean we don't love our horses? And just who would you be to decide if someone does or does not?

[Beverley]

I'm offended by the 'campaigning' in other than the 'Off Course' forum, where this issue has been beaten to death. Please take it back over there.

[SEPowell]

Campaigning??? As far as I can tell all respondants to this thread have opinions they're expressing.

And how does this not relate to all horses and horse owners, including fox hunters?

If any of this offends you or if your tired of the topic, you have the choice to pass the thread.

[BeverlyAStrauss]

So tell me if we don't support the bill does that mean we don't love our horses? And just who would you be to decide if someone does or does not?

County, as I said, I do not mean to offend anyone, and certainly am not trying to decide who does or does not love their horses- I must have struck a nerve with you, I am sorry- my only feeling is that if one really knew what the trip to the slaughterhouse entails, and the horror and fear it places in those unlucky horses that end up there, they would not support slaughter. As I said in my post, that is my opinion-- you are entitled to yours. I am not judging anyone, and I do think there needs to be an alternative, such as humane euthanasia.

[county]

There are alternatives lots of them actually but not everyone wants to use them nor should they. Its totally a personal decision and I know exactly what goes on in slaughter plants of every species I've worked in three and been in many. And I support slaughter.

[BeverlyAStrauss]

to each his own..........

[county]

Exactly.

[Hunter's Rest]

Tell you what, if you have alternative methods to care for, and end the lives of, the hundreds of thousands of ill, lame, old (I mean way old, not just elderly), sick, infirm, dangerous (and yes indeed, there are a few) horses in the world, why don't you post your address and I'll mail you the next one I've got that I cannot or will not (in the case of dangerous) take care of.
Clearly, responsible owners, breeders, caretakers, sign on for the duration. However, there comes a time at the end of the life (or, in the case of 'dangerous', at the end of the line) that death is the appropriate option. To suggest that you (not you personally, the collective 'you') have the right to tell me (not me personally, the collective 'me') what to do at that end with MY horse (or dog, or cat, or cow, or goat, or chicken) is incomprehensible.
Yes, work to enforce horse transport laws. Yes, work to enforce (and create) caretaking laws for animals (all of them, not just horses) at the end of the line.
But do not, not for an instant, suggest that you know best for my (collective me, again) animals.
Dead is dead. Who cares if they're food.
If you're not a cotton-wearing vegan who rides in synthetic tack and has never had a cowpox vaccine shot then you (collective you) have no right to criticize.
As an aside, most thoroughbred horsemen do NOT support the industry's line on slaughter. Ask one.

[county]

Well said Hunter's Rest

[SEPowell]

I remember when we fed retired hunters to the hounds. Their deaths were quick and clean and I don't have a problem with that (though not my choice).

But I do have a problem with subjecting horses to a system of slaughter that was not designed for horses. I'm not sure if one can be structured that would not be cruel.

I have no problem with euthanizing horses and know that most people who fox hunt can also afford to pay a vet to euthanize their horses. I know very few people who choose to do it any other way.

I hunt in NY (western) so maybe it's a cultural thing.

The Thoroughbred racing industry, including National Hunt Racing, is filled with thoroughbred horsemen. Some don't support it, but the industry as a whole does.

Hopefully the fox hunters that are sent to slaughter houses are not the OTTBs that make such great hunters for so many up and down the East Coast. Although we have picked up a few older OTTBs in the past 6 months who were well schooled in jumping and I've wondered if they were hunter-jumpers or fox hunters. We know that at least one of them was an event horse. None of these horses were dangerous.

I support euthanizing dangerous horses.

I respect others' rights but I have a hard time living in a community when I don't respect the accepted standards of behavior and so I'm going to continue to express my opinions and hope that my audience will analyze them carefully and investigate the situation I'm bringing up.

This is in no way an assault on anyone's rights, it's a dialogue.

[Susan P]

Bravo SEPowell,

Your point was well made and accurate, you are correct.

[county]

I totally agree with SEPowell when he said " I have a hard time lkiving in a community etc." But we do not all live in the same community nor have the same accepted standards.

And IMO thats a very good thing.

[Hunter's Rest]

Many people still feed their horses to the hounds. I definitely do. Absolutely.
I agree wholeheartedly on the species-specific bolt. Please do all the work you wish on making that happen when slaughterhouses are working with horses. Please.
Oh, and note that horses fed to the hounds are killed with a bullet. Not an injection. Cruel? Inhumane? Not if appropriately handled. Far less horrifying than a horse fighting the euthanasia drugs. That, people, that is horrific.
The TB industry voice (The Jockey Club) came out for the bill (anti-slaughter). The TB industry professionals, did not. Including, and especially, the steeplechasing crowd. Trust me.
Euthanize if you wish. But don't come crying when you cannot bury the horse due to local zoning laws. Don't come crying when your doggie dies due to gnawing on the dead leg of a horse with euthanisia meds in his system.
Not one of the 'dangerous' horses I've met in my life (total: 3) were Tbs.
I realize this is not an assault on individual rights. Agreed.

[JumpingPaints]

The TB industry voice (The Jockey Club) came out for the bill (anti-slaughter). The TB industry professionals, did not. Including, and especially, the steeplechasing crowd. Trust me.

Following is a partial list of Supporters of the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act. For the full list, please see http://www.horse-protection.org/info.php?id=37

National Horse Industry Organizations
The American Holsteiner Horse Association, Inc.
The American Sulphur Horse Association
American Indian Horse Registry
Blue Horse Charities
Churchill Downs Incorporated
Eaton & Thorne
Eaton Sales, Inc.
Fasig-Tipton Company, Inc.
Hambletonian Society, Inc.
Horse Industry Partners
Hughs Management
Keeneland Association Inc.
Magna Entertainment Corp.
National Show Horse Registry
National Steeplechase Association, Inc.
National Thoroughbred Racing Association
New Jersey Racing Commission
New Jersey Thoroughbred Owners and Breeders Association
New York Racing Association
New York State Thoroughbred Racing and Development Fund Corporation
New York Thoroughbred Breeders, Inc.
Ocala Breeder's Sales Company (OBS)
Palomino Horse Association, Int.
Racetrack Chaplaincy of America
Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau
Thoroughbred Retirement Foundation
United States Eventing Association

Horse Industry Leaders
Josephine Abercrombie – Owner, Pin Oak Stud
Joe L. Allbritton – Owner, Lazy Lane Farms, Inc.
Peggy Augustus – Owner, Keswick Farm
Niall and Stephanie Brennan – Niall Brennan Stables
Nadia Sanan Briggs – Padua Stables
Maggie O. Bryant – Locust Hill Farm
W. Cothran "Cot" Campbell – Dogwood Stables
Norman Casse – Chairman of the Ocala Breeder's Sales Company (OBS)
Nick and Jaqui de Meric – Nick de Meric Bloodstock
Richard L. Duchossois – Chairman, Arlington Park
Tracy & Carol Farmer – Owners, Shadowlawn Farm
John Fort – Peachtree Racing Stable
John Gaines – the late founder of the Breeder's Cup World Thoroughbred Championship
Gainesway Farm
GaWaNi Pony Boy
Randy Hartley – Hartley/De Renzo Thoroughbreds
Charles E. Hayward – President and CEO, New York Racing Association, Inc.
John Hettinger – Owner, Akindale Farm, Principal stockholder Fasig-Tipton Co, Inc., Chairman Emeritus Grayson-Jockey Club Research Foundation, Trustee NY Racing Association
Tom Meeker – Churchill Downs
Reiley McDonald – Partner, Eaton Sales
Herb and Ellen Moelis – Candyland Farm
Nick Nicholson – President and Chief Executive Officer, Keeneland Association
George Stout – National Cutting Horse Association Members Hall of Fame
Frank Stronach – CEO, Magna Entertainment
Dan and Jocelyn Sumerel – Sumerel Training and Therapy
Becky Thomas – Sequel Bloodstock
D.G. Van Clief, Jr. – NTRA Commissioner, CEO & Breeders' Cup President
Walnut Hall Limited
Donna Ward
Marylou Whitney and John Hendrickson – owners of BIRDSTONE, 2004 Belmont Stakes winner
Russell Williams – VP, Hanover Shoe Farm

Kentucky Derby Winning Owners
Roy and Gretchen Jackson (BARBARO – 2006)
Jerry and Ann Moss (GIACOMO – 2005)
Patricia Chapman (SMARTY JONES - 2004)
Sackatoga Stable, Jack Knowlton, Managing Partner (FUNNY CIDE - 2003)
John and Debby Oxley (MONARCHOS - 2001)
Beverly Lewis (CHARISMATIC-1999, SILVER CHARM - 1997)
Mike Pegram (REAL QUIET - 1998)
William T. Young, Jr, Overbrook Farm LLC (GRINDSTONE - 1996)
Joseph and Eileen Cornacchia (GO FOR GIN - 1994, STRIKE THE GOLD - 1991)
Bill Condren (GO FOR GIN - 1994, STRIKE THE GOLD - 1991)
Mrs. Paul Mellon (SEA HERO - 1993)
Arthur and Staci Hancock (SUNDAY SILENCE - 1989, GATO DEL SOL - 1982)
Howard Keck, Jr. (FERDINAND - 1986)
Dell Hancock (SWALE - 1984)
Bert and Diana Firestone (GENUINE RISK - 1980)
Penny Chenery (SECRETARIAT - 1973, RIVA RIDGE - 1972)

Thoroughbred Trainers and Jockeys
Jerry Bailey – Hall of Fame Jockey
W.A. "Jimmy" Croll, Jr – Hall of Fame Trainer
Neil Drysdale - Hall of Fame Trainer
Julie Krone – Hall of Fame Jockey
Chris McCarron - Hall of Fame Jockey
Richard Mandella - Hall of Fame Trainer
Gary Stevens - Hall of Fame Jockey
Nick Zito – Two-time Kentucky Derby Winning and Hall of Fame Trainer

Hunter's Rest - The thoroughbred people you know may support slaughter, but there are a lot of professionals and professional associations listed above, who do not.

[Hunter's Rest]

Show me a single working horseman on any of those lists. With due respect, those are the payers-of-bills, not the caretakers-of-horses.

[SEPowell]

The East Coast racing and fox hunting community is actually very small, no matter where you live. I live in both PA and NY and when I'm in NY I often see people from VA and PA come up to hunt and race. And that's what I was referring to when I said community.

I've seen poorly done euthanizations and it's heart breaking and totally unnecessary. I made a point to learn the humane way to put large animals down and that's what happens on our farm now when the time comes. If the vet doesn't describe his/her method as I expect it to be, then he/she doesn't come here.

Yes, horses fed to hounds are killed with bullets, and usually the person who does it is highly skilled and there is no suffering. Still not my choice, but I don't view that as cruel.

Over the years my dogs have brought home many bones of many species. I even have a horse's skull and I don't cry about it to anyone and my dogs (one is a fox hound) have never become ill.

The euthanized horses that I know were properly disposed of, either through rendering or burying them with a backhoe.

I wonder what the long term picture is for people who eat off the track thoroughbred horsemeat that's been exposed to countless drugs.

The National Hunt people I know are also active in charities that support TB rescues. Some have described to me their strategies for placing their horses at the ends of their racing careers, and I've watched quite a few old hunters live their lives out in outsheds and big fields with other horses. They're happy and healthy until they become too old to chew and digest food properly. Then they're put down.

Within the National Hunt and TB industry, there are many diverse opinions on this topic, but the "spokespeople" do not support slaughter. Check the board of Thoroughbred Charities of America, as one example. Rescues were even mentioned on the Kentucky Derby this year and were the beneficiaries of the thousand dollar mint juleps
.
And yet, about 2/3 of the thoroughbreds at the New Holland Sales are fresh off the track. Many come from the lower level track and have trickled down the claiming ladder, some are very young, some are stakes horses. You probably know of Native Heir who went to MidAtlantic Horse Rescue. Today at New Holland quite a few were in their teens and I wonder what kinds of jobs they've had since their racing days; I wonder if any were fox hunters. The lowest kill price was $225 for TB. Mid Atlantic Horse Rescue took many, but could not take all of them.

It's possible to transition tbs from the track to new jobs without putting them in situations where they're vulnerable to slaughter, and it's possible to dispose of unwanted, unsafe and no longer valued horses humanely. It's not difficult, but because it's the unknown it can seem impossible, inconvenient and burdensome. In fact it's nothing more than a new habit to learn, or rather a new mode of operations.

[JumpingPaints]

Show me a single working horseman on any of those lists. With due respect, those are the payers-of-bills, not the caretakers-of-horses.
I see several, not to mention associations made up of professional members. I don't expect everyone involved with thoroughbreds to be in agreement on any issue - especially this one, but I do think the opinions of everyone involved are valid.

[Sannois]

Tell you what, if you have alternative methods to care for, and end the lives of, the hundreds of thousands of ill, lame, old (I mean way old, not just elderly), sick, infirm, dangerous (and yes indeed, there are a few) horses in the world, why don't you post your address and I'll mail you the next one I've got that I cannot or will not (in the case of dangerous) take care of.
Clearly, responsible owners, breeders, caretakers, sign on for the duration. However, there comes a time at the end of the life (or, in the case of 'dangerous', at the end of the line) that death is the appropriate option. To suggest that you (not you personally, the collective 'you') have the right to tell me (not me personally, the collective 'me') what to do at that end with MY horse (or dog, or cat, or cow, or goat, or chicken) is incomprehensible.
Yes, work to enforce horse transport laws. Yes, work to enforce (and create) caretaking laws for animals (all of them, not just horses) at the end of the line.
But do not, not for an instant, suggest that you know best for my (collective me, again) animals.
Dead is dead. Who cares if they're food.
If you're not a cotton-wearing vegan who rides in synthetic tack and has never had a cowpox vaccine shot then you (collective you) have no right to criticize.
As an aside, most thoroughbred horsemen do NOT support the industry's line on slaughter. Ask one.
WEll said! EXACTLY the way I feel..
Oops what am I doing on an anti slaughter thread????
I thought this was the foxhunting forum!:confused: Wow they have taken it over here too?? No takers on off course anymore I guess! :cool:

[tbdressage]

But I do have a problem with subjecting horses to a system of slaughter that was not designed for horses. I'm not sure if one can be structured that would not be cruel.

You are so right.... here is a very graphic series of videos. I warn you VERY graphic and heartwrenching....
But to form an opinion on this subject I think folks need to see what goes on...:( :(

http://www.sharkonline.org/horseslaughter.mv

[mayhew]

Dead is dead. Who cares if they're food.
.

Personally, I don't have any problem whatsoever with horses being eaten by whomever wants to eat them. I do have a problem with horses spending their last days in fear and suffering. The injustice of horse slaughter isn't what happens to the horses after they're dead, but before.

[alysheba]

I'm offended by the 'campaigning' in other than the 'Off Course' forum, where this issue has been beaten to death. Please take it back over there.

I'm sure lots of Hunter/Jumpers have gone to slaughter. I think its relevent in this Forum.

If someone putting an anti slaughter post in this room "offends" you-You really need to lighten your stress load in life. This gives a whole new meaning to "Don't sweat the small stuff"..besides, if it was truly inappropriate, the Admin would have moved it, or closed it. Just say "pass" and move onto a much more "life impacting" thread...maybe discussing breeches or something. :lol:

[alysheba]

If you'd like to support this bill please go to (http://www.horse-protection.org/) .

Passing this bill will not threaten fox hunting in any way. I'm an avid foxhunter with the Genesee Valley Hunt and I'm certain of this information!!! It is supported by the racing industry and is the result of many many racing fans/owners/breeders/trainers/horse lovers, etc who want to keep thoroughbreds, and all horses, out of slaughter.


Its clear from the OP's post that she wasn't trying to start a fight...just give you access to info you may not have seen. Lets just take it or leave it. We can argue about it in off course. ;)

[Sannois]

Not the sharksonline Videos again.. That is one OLD sensationalist segment of an icident, meant to get you emotionally. Man you people, cant get a rise out of people on the Off course forum so you come over to the Hunting forums! That is ONE incident, Andyes there are bad Kills but death is not pretty.. Oh no.. not going there, Back away from the keyboard Sannois!
What the heck go ahead know yourself out! :rolleyes: :uhoh: :sleepy:

[Alagirl]

Its clear from the OP's post that she wasn't trying to start a fight...just give you access to info you may not have seen. Lets just take it or leave it. We can argue about it in off course. ;)


ROFL....:lol: :lol: :lol:

This subject always ends in a fight, always, without fail...:lol: :lol:

[Beverley]

I'm sure lots of Hunter/Jumpers have gone to slaughter. I think its relevent in this Forum.

If someone putting an anti slaughter post in this room "offends" you-You really need to lighten your stress load in life. This gives a whole new meaning to "Don't sweat the small stuff"..besides, if it was truly inappropriate, the Admin would have moved it, or closed it. Just say "pass" and move onto a much more "life impacting" thread...maybe discussing breeches or something. :lol:

Hi there, Alysheba! BTW this is the foxhunting forum, not hunter/jumper.:)

I do appreciate your concern, but my stress management is just peachy, thanks. Which is why I don't have a need to launch snide remarks at other posters in these bulletin boards. Et tu?

In my opinion, a question of good manners, which foxhunters tend to have in abundance, to post things where they belong, and no, I still maintain that the foxhunting forum ain't the place. But hey, as long as this one refuses to die, here's another web site for folks to check out, rather to balance the OP's link, as it were: www.animalwelfarecouncil.org (http://www.animalwelfarecouncil.org).

Have a nice day!:D

[SEPowell]

I posted this issue completely unaware of anything that preceded it. For me this is a new forum.

The exploration of horse slaughter has resulted in extensive research by many organizations and that result has been good for all horses and those who use them for pleasure and profit. I've been surprized to see intolerance of dialogue.

I didn't post in off course because I had no idea what "Off Course" meant and the title of the category did not interest me enough to find out. This topic is anything but off course; I've never defined any aspect of horse ownership and sport as exclusively as this forum does.

In my life experience I've learned that true dialogue usually leads to introspection, solutions, compromise, agreement to disagree, all productive and postive aspects of thinking and discussing. Once argument is cloaked as dialogue the possibilities of any of constructive thought disappear and that's what has happened to this thread.

[MuleLady]

I'm with Hunters Rest and Sannois. I've seen several horse slaughter and kill pen videos and pictures. They have not changed my mind. Although I will end all my animals' lives humanely at home when their time comes, I still believe horse slaughter has a place, even if the kill methods involved could stand improvement. Since I don't believe ending horse slaughter is a feasible idea, I would like to see Temple Grandin (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743247698/sr=8-2/qid=1153828664/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0141883-0641569?ie=UTF8) turn her considerable talents to the matter of improving conditions for horses in slaughterhouses.

That aside, when I come to this forum, I expect to find topics that are DIRECTLY related to foxhunting...attire, conduct, social doings, Hunt news, training foxhunting horses, etc. Even a discussion of sending horses to feed hounds at the end of their lives would be interesting and ON TOPIC. The slaughter discussion is totally OFF TOPIC here. I for one wish the Mods would move it to Off Course...I visit this forum for pleasure and enjoyment...when I see a topic like this one, it kills my buzz and causes the same irritated reaction to over-active anti-slaughter proponents as I have to evangelistic born-again Christians, tree-hugging activists, and fervent politicians: I just want to slap them right out of my universe.

:rolleyes:

Okay. Breaaaaaaaaaaathe. I need more caffeine.

[JumpingPaints]

I posted this issue completely unaware of anything that preceded it. For me this is a new forum.

The exploration of horse slaughter has resulted in extensive research by many organizations and that result has been good for all horses and those who use them for pleasure and profit. I've been surprized to see intolerance of dialogue.

I didn't post in off course because I had no idea what "Off Course" meant and the title of the category did not interest me enough to find out. This topic is anything but off course; I've never defined any aspect of horse ownership and sport as exclusively as this forum does.

In my life experience I've learned that true dialogue usually leads to introspection, solutions, compromise, agreement to disagree, all productive and postive aspects of thinking and discussing. Once argument is cloaked as dialogue the possibilities of any of constructive thought disappear and that's what has happened to this thread.

Welcome to COTH! Your sensible, open-minded viewpoint is appreciated by many of us. You will find the topic of slaughter on this board brings out strong emotions from those who support it and those who do not, and a few are intolerant of dialogue.

Yes, this topic is almost always discussed in Off-course, but I think from your original post, you framed the topic in the context of your foxhunting experience.

[county]

SEPowell you haven't seen anything yet. Theres some here that say peoples heads should be smashed in if there pro slaughter. Some who celerbrate when a pro slaughter person is killed in a truck accident etc. This forum is rather a violent one if your not anti slaughter. Slaughter isn't so much what some here are against as much as having a differant opinion is.

[RainyDayRide]

Witnesses for today's Commerce subcommitte hearing

Testifying for HR 503

T.Boone Pickens
Dr. Patty Hogan (former veterinary practice partner of AAEP past president
Scott Palmer)
Russell Williams, owner of Hanover Shoe Farms (one of the largest breeding
farms in the nation, they breed standardbred racehorses)
Congressman Sweeney (Sponsor of the bill)
Congresswoman Bono

Against HR503
Dr. Bonnie Beaver, AVMA
Dr. Doug Corey, AAEP President Elect (2007)
Dick Koehler VP Beltex (Illinois slaughterhouse)
Congressman Goodlatte (he's the head of AG committee, which will be hearing testimony on the bill this Thurs at 9:30 am EDT.)
(possibly) Congresswoman Blackburn

Link to the hearing page at 11 am PDT today (tues) from

Hearing page (http://energycommerce.house.gov/108/Hearings/07252006hearing1992/hearing.htm)

[Susan P]

I have a friend that hunts in 2 hunts, she's busy all the time, she's a devoted animal lover, rescues dogs, cats, horses, whatever. Her only concern to me about ending horse slaughter was she was concerned about what would become of those horses but she hates the whole horse slaughter business, hates it.

When I pointed out that there are some of the horses that would be euthanized and I said sending them to the hounds is not an issue for me, if the shot is done correctly it's perfectly acceptable but not the assembly line of torture or 90,000 horses last year alone.

If a horse is permanently lame, ill tempered, not safe to himself or others then euthanize or send him to the hounds, take that one horse and shoot him. Don't take him to a killing factory. It would not reach the number of 90,000 horses.

How about making the breeders and owners hold up to their responsibility? If you own, it breed it you must also feed it. There are still a lot of places where you can just bury a horse or there is the rendering plant and if it's a horse you can't bury and he is special to you and you want to cremate him that's not out of the question even price wise. It doesn't compare to the night mare they call the slaughterhouse.

[county]

But not everyone thinks its a nightmare nor is it what you say. Its called your opinion not all are the same nor should they be. And if breeders never sell horses and only feed them how long do you think they stay in business? How many people will own horses? Responsable? How many do you know that say their not?

[Susan P]

ALL LAWS ARE OPINION

IF YOU CAN'T FEED EM DON'T BREED EM

[county]

And where do you see that anyone said they can't feed them? Point is breeders breed to sell livestock to make a living and pay bills. Its been done that way since the dawn of time, no sales no money. And no one except breeders own any. I really think some here need to take a basic course in economicvs it might help clear up some misconceptions they have.

[Sannois]

I'm with Hunters Rest and Sannois. I've seen several horse slaughter and kill pen videos and pictures. They have not changed my mind. Although I will end all my animals' lives humanely at home when their time comes, I still believe horse slaughter has a place, even if the kill methods involved could stand improvement. Since I don't believe ending horse slaughter is a feasible idea, I would like to see Temple Grandin (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743247698/sr=8-2/qid=1153828664/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-0141883-0641569?ie=UTF8) turn her considerable talents to the matter of improving conditions for horses in slaughterhouses.

That aside, when I come to this forum, I expect to find topics that are DIRECTLY related to foxhunting...attire, conduct, social doings, Hunt news, training foxhunting horses, etc. Even a discussion of sending horses to feed hounds at the end of their lives would be interesting and ON TOPIC. The slaughter discussion is totally OFF TOPIC here. I for one wish the Mods would move it to Off Course...I visit this forum for pleasure and enjoyment...when I see a topic like this one, it kills my buzz and causes the same irritated reaction to over-active anti-slaughter proponents as I have to evangelistic born-again Christians, tree-hugging activists, and fervent politicians: I just want to slap them right out of my universe.

:rolleyes:

Okay. Breaaaaaaaaaaathe. I need more caffeine.
Another sensible rational individual. I totally agree about Temple Grandin!
:cool:

[J Swan]

Good Lord - now this subject is on the foxhunting forum? Can we please talk about hunting and leave the slaughter stuff on the Off Course forum?

Susan P - I'm astonished that you would not have realized that this bill would also outlaw taking horses to the kennel or feeding them to zoo animals. If you truly have foxhunting friends - you would know that taking an infirm horse to the kennel is a very humane end for a horse. But this bill would outlaw that as well.

Please let me know which rescues will be taking in all the unwanted horses as a result so that I may direct people there. The rescues around here are full with neglect and abuse cases.

Anyone interested in talking about HUNTING?

[OakesBrae]

I completely agree with HuntersRest (and JSwan, and Sannois, and MuleLady, and...)

[promlightshine]

There are lots of organizations that are openly against this including our own (MFHA). I own and hunt my standardbreds. Because of how they are tracked it's likely we never know how many go to slaughter. I know the Amish come and the Amish go and the horses go with them. There aren't that many buggies to be pulled.

The USTA has members who are working towards caring for our own after racing. The problem is many who own small operations are concerned about making ends meet. The smaller tracks are barely making it. The drivers and grooms need insurance etc...

I am very torn on this subject but would be concerned about the numbers of horses left to starve or unwanted. I'd also worry about the economic impact on the industry and I do believe many would figure out a way around it.

I'll keep working in my corner of the world to help place these horses in good homes or a dignified end. That's what we all can agree upon.

[rigoletto]

I have worked in the TB Industry for over 15 years, my husband for over 20. We have nothe been involved with someof the top racing operations in the country as well as with the Mom and Pop operations. We also both know many people in the Steeplechasing crowd quite well. Very few are pro-slaughter. Do not confuse slaughter with humane euthanaisa Hunter's Rest. BTW, I have no problem with a properly placed bullet. It is quick and, if done properly, painless. Slaughter is neither. Even worse is what the horses are subjected to on their way to slaughter, both at the auctions and in transport. To me, horse slaughter is an easy out for horse owners who do not have the compassion for their animals to give them the humane and dignified end they all deserve, whether they are old, sick, mean, crazy, whatever.....

BTW, I am a caretaker of horses, as is my husband and as are most of the people I have known for the last 15 years. The vast majority of them have enough respect for their horses to euthanize them humanely. Not subject them to the horrors of auction, transport and slaughter. I just came back from 10 days on a working cattle ranch in Montana. The guy who runs the ranch, a lifelong cattleman who relies on his horses to get his job done every day made an excellent point. Horse slaughter is a convenient way for people who call themselves horsemen to get rid of their horses. A real horseman would never do that to his horse.

[county]

Thats one opinion but thats all it is. Holds no more water then any other. I know ranchers that use their horses the same way that feel just the oposite.

[Susan P]

I also know racehorse owners/breeders/trainers and eventers of every level, foxhunters, private horses, pleasure, show horse owners, etc. and very few of them believe horse slaughter should be legal.

This is an excellent statement and I believe you are on the money! :yes:



I have worked in the TB Industry for over 15 years, my husband for over 20. We have nothe been involved with someof the top racing operations in the country as well as with the Mom and Pop operations. We also both know many people in the Steeplechasing crowd quite well. Very few are pro-slaughter. Do not confuse slaughter with humane euthanaisa Hunter's Rest. BTW, I have no problem with a properly placed bullet. It is quick and, if done properly, painless. Slaughter is neither. Even worse is what the horses are subjected to on their way to slaughter, both at the auctions and in transport. To me, horse slaughter is an easy out for horse owners who do not have the compassion for their animals to give them the humane and dignified end they all deserve, whether they are old, sick, mean, crazy, whatever.....

BTW, I am a caretaker of horses, as is my husband and as are most of the people I have known for the last 15 years. The vast majority of them have enough respect for their horses to euthanize them humanely. Not subject them to the horrors of auction, transport and slaughter. I just came back from 10 days on a working cattle ranch in Montana. The guy who runs the ranch, a lifelong cattleman who relies on his horses to get his job done every day made an excellent point. Horse slaughter is a convenient way for people who call themselves horsemen to get rid of their horses. A real horseman would never do that to his horse.

[rigoletto]

Thanks Susan P -

I have been in this industry long enough to know that, to many, horses are vehicles, a means to an end. I don't happen to feel that way, but I know that many do. That does not excuse, however, the way horses are mistreated and abused at auctions, druing transport and on their way to slaughter. If you have not read Dr. Patricia Hogan's testimony from Tuesday's hearings, please do. She covers every point far more articulately than I can. Sure, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but in my opinion horse slaughter equals horse abuse. Anyone who disagrees needs to spend a few days at the auctions, following the horses being transported and then slaughtered. I get e-mails and calls about horses at auction with broken legs or horses that are down in the pens and unable to get up. Rarely do they get medical attention until it is time to bute them up to try to load them on the trailers to the slaughterhouses. I was once talking with a man who was at an auction when a guy opened the back of his big horse trailer to unload and there were two young horses that had been trampled to death by what looked like a bunch of draft horses. The guy had driven from northwestern Michigan to southeastern Ohio and never stopped to check the horses. Happens every day.

[county]

I've been to the auctions, seen the transport system 1000's of times and been to the slaughter houses. I'm still in favor of slaughter. I'd love to see changes made for transport and kill floor systems but unless the two sides work together its not going to happen.

rigoletto I'm curious do you support the slaughter of other species of livestock? Same basic conditions exist for them alsos I'm just wondering if you support it by eating and buying meat from them.

[Hunter's Rest]

The ugly reality of commercial livestock farming for meat is why I try to get locally grown, lovingly raised and locally processed meats. I am this minute looking down at my neighbor's cattle (Scottish Highlanders) grazing my field (we lease the space). They are cute, they graze yummy river bottom meadow, they loving care, responsible tending and, when its time, the neighbor loads them herself into her stock trailer and takes them to the processing place. A few days later she comes back with hundreds of pounds of yummy totally organic meat. I try to get a half at a time. Ditto another neighbor's lambs; ditto another one's goat. Ditto another one's dairy products. Ditto my tenant's deer hunting take (on this farm, and on his employers' farm). Ditto also his fishing take every so often when he goes out in the Gulf off of Hatteras. Ditto my very own produce (or the neighbor with the cute 'honor system' $$ box by their roadside garden table, full, yesterday, of corn and tomatoes and squashes.
KNOW what you eat. That would indeed extend to KNOWING where your horse is going when he leaves you. I've read of some old-timers who used to be able to deliver the infirm to the abattoir (or slaughterhouse, or processing plant, or whatever the final shot is delivered) themselves. How nice it would be to have that option in more regions. Gone would be the horrible interstate transport etc.
THAT is what we, as a caring, responsible, EDUCATED community of horse PROFESSIONALS should work towards. Enforcement of existing laws. Creation of a viable option for the infirm horses.
I fully agree that one should attempt to keep tabs on horses one has created (by breeding) or promised lifetime care to.

PS I must admit, while typing this, lovingly looking down over the happy cattle grazing like they're in some impressionist painting in my verdant field below the house, uh, I am gnawing on a ham sandwich with american cheeze. Bet that pig, and those cows, didn't have a happy life. I am part of hte problem, admittedly, partaking in commercial meat processing by eating this yuck. But grilling up the Scottish Highland ribeyes that I thawed last night looked to be just too much trouble after my final week of kiddie camp. So I'm eating the last leftovers from camp lunches.
That said, we should try to support sustainable agriculture, responsible stewardship and LOCAL growers and livestock farmers.
.... when possible ....

[Hunter's Rest]

The ugly reality of commercial livestock farming for meat is why I try to get locally grown, lovingly raised and locally processed meats. I am this minute looking down at my neighbor's cattle (Scottish Highlanders) grazing my field (we lease the space). They are cute, they graze yummy river bottom meadow, they receive loving care, responsible tending and, when its time, the neighbor loads them herself into her stock trailer and takes them to the processing place. A few days later she comes back with hundreds of pounds of yummy totally organic meat. Ditto another neighbor's lambs; ditto another one's goat. Ditto another one's dairy products. Ditto my tenant's deer hunting take (on this farm, and on his employers' farm). Ditto also his fishing take every so often when he goes out in the Gulf off of Hatteras. Ditto my very own produce (or the neighbor with the cute 'honor system' $$ box by their roadside garden table, full, yesterday, of corn and tomatoes and squashes.
I live 60 miles west of DC. In the sticks, but don't we all? I know most posters here live in similar 'horse country' or reasonable facsimile's thereof, so its not like I'm in some agriculture shangi-la. We all can find this type of responsible stewardship. Of all animals. Horses. Cows. Pigs. Chickens.
KNOW what you eat. That would indeed extend to KNOWING where your horse is going when he leaves you. I've read of some old-timers who used to be able to deliver the infirm to the abattoir (or slaughterhouse, or processing plant, or whatever the final shot is delivered) themselves. How nice it would be to have that option in more regions. Gone would be the horrible interstate transport etc.
THAT is what we, as a caring, responsible, EDUCATED community of horse PROFESSIONALS should work towards. Enforcement of existing laws. Creation of a viable option for the infirm horses.
I fully agree that one should attempt to keep tabs on horses one has created (by breeding) or promised lifetime care to.

PS I must admit, while typing this, lovingly looking down over the happy cattle grazing like they're in some impressionist painting in my verdant field below the house, uh, I am gnawing on a ham sandwich with american cheeze. Bet that pig, and those cows, didn't have a happy life. I am part of hte problem, admittedly, partaking in commercial meat processing by eating this yuck. But grilling up the Scottish Highland ribeyes that I thawed last night looked to be just too much trouble after my final week of kiddie camp. So I'm eating the last leftovers from camp lunches.
That said, we should try to support sustainable agriculture, responsible stewardship and LOCAL growers and livestock farmers.
.... when possible ....

[Hunter's Rest]

H.R 503, the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act, can actually do more harm that good for horses.

a.. The American Equine Veterinarian Association says this is bad for horse welfare.
b.. 61 other groups concerned about horses are AGAINST this bill;
c.. 70,000+ additional unwanted horses each year will flood inadequate, overburdened, unregulated patchwork of rescue and adoption facilities;
e.. These horses will compete for adoption with the 32,000 wild horses that US taxpayers are already paying $40 million to shelter and feed;
f.. There will be an exponential increase in abandoned and neglected horses because owners who can no longer afford the $2,000+ each year in care and who can't sell or give away their horses or find them a home, are left with no other option..

National Animal Interest Alliance (NAIA) website http://capwiz.com/naiatrust/home/

[jetsmom]

Hunter's rest-

There are more than 100 Horse Groups that Support HR503.

Most of your doom and gloom speculation has no basis of any facts or historical precedence to support it. Please read the following link, which dispells the myths of "Too many horses" " Increase in neglect" etc.

http://www.trfinc.org/news/TRF_WhitePaper.pdf


.

[county]

Neither side can prove anything there going to spin it so it looks like they want it to.

[J Swan]

jetsmom - there is a white paper that supports horse slaughter in case you didn't know.

And for foxhunters, this Bill would also make it a federal offense to take your horse to the kennel at the end of its useful life.

Regardless - I don't think this subject belongs on the foxhunting forum.

[SimpsoMatt]

Well .. maybe it does belong on the foxhunting forum since the MFHA has issued a pretty strong statement against HR 503. Since somebody chose to bring this issue into the foxhunting forum, here's what the Masters of FoxHounds Association has to say:

> Subject: MFHA - H.R. 503 - Please Read
>
> This Bill is bad for Horse Welfare, We all love our horses, but this
> isn’t about your trusty hunter, it’s about horses nobody wants, many
> of which are not rideable for various reasons. It may make you feel
> better to ban slaughter but is it what is best for them?
>
> H.R 503, the American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act, can actually do
> more harm that good for horses.
> • The American Equine Veterinarian Association says this is bad for
> horse welfare.
> • 61 other groups concerned about horses are AGAINST this bill;
> • The ban will devastate the US horse market: Each horse’s value
> will decrease by $300 to $400, or about $29 million in losses for US
> horse owners;
> • 70,000+ additional unwanted horses each year will flood
> inadequate, overburdened, unregulated patchwork of rescue and adoption
> facilities;
> • These extra horses will be competing for adoption with the 32,000
> wild horses that US taxpayers are already paying $40 million to
> shelter and feed;
> • There will be an increased in abandoned and neglected horses
> because owners who can no longer afford the $2,000+ each year in care
> and who can’t sell or give away their horses or find them a home, are
> left with no other option.
>
> A Hearing on Capitol Hill is scheduled for Tuesday, July 25.
>
> In preparation for this Hearing on H.R. 503, we are reaching out to
> the Horse Welfare Organizations like yours to see if you have any
> questions or need any support in getting this information out to your
> membership.
>
> Go to the National Animal Interest Alliance (NAIA) website
> http://capwiz.com/naiatrust/home/ ; it will easily take you by the
> numbers to contact your congressman.
> 1 Do you have a membership list that you are willing to contact to
> urge them to call their Members of Congress?
> 2 Do you have any contacts w/the Member's district office, or DC
> office, or do you know the Member directly?
> 3 Do you have any contacts/friends in the local media that might
> write about how horse processing helps horse welfare, and a ban would
> do more harm than good?
>
> If you love horses and want to protect them from the consequences of
> bad legislations, please work with us to vote “no” to the emotional
> rhetoric….
>
> VOTE “NO” ON H.R. 503
>
> For the full report, “The Unintended Consequences of a Ban on Horse
> Processing,” visit www.animalwelfarecouncil.org

[Foxhunt4me]

1. Horses are livestock, livestock is OK to kill and eat even if I dont particularly like that type of meat.

2. My horses are my property to do with what I please, if I can make $300 bucks selling Trigger instead of paying $500 to put him down and dispose of him thats a good deal.

3. I dont like losing any more personal freedoms due to animal rightist inspired legislation or any other legislation.

4. Its a slippery slope when you start telling people what they can and can't eat and how they must handle their animal property whether its a pet or livestock.

[Carol Ames]

I was shocked :eek:to learn that the AVMA, and AEEP label those should berequirements for anyone voting on this issue. slaugteras :"humane euthanasia"have they never beenrbeen in a slaughterhouse or seenthhe US filmclip?

[Carol Ames]

I was shocked :eek:to learn that the AVMA, and AEEP label slaughter as :"humane euthanasia"have they:eek: never beenrbeen in a slaughterhouse or seen he HUS filmclip?those should berequirements for anyone voting on this issue. :yes:

[mbetteridge]

County, as I said, I do not mean to offend anyone, and certainly am not trying to decide who does or does not love their horses- I must have struck a nerve with you, I am sorry- my only feeling is that if one really knew what the trip to the slaughterhouse entails, and the horror and fear it places in those unlucky horses that end up there, they would not support slaughter. As I said in my post, that is my opinion-- you are entitled to yours. I am not judging anyone, and I do think there needs to be an alternative, such as humane euthanasia.


If a anti-slaughter bill is passed, how many horses do you think will sit out in a field and starve to death because their owners won't pay to have them "humanly Euthanized". Of course, some of them will just go out and put a bullet in their heads. If they don't know how to do it right and don't make the first shot a kill shot, the horse would certainly suffer more than had it been sent to slaughter. The horses that people don't have the heart to shoot and won't pay to be put down, will sit out in a field, no vet care, no farrier visits, no one giving a cr@p while they waste away. I believe that this is more horribly than the slaughter house where when they are killed, it is instant. Horses are livestock, like cattle, but I never see anything about stopping the slaughter of innocent cattle, maybe cause they taste good, most people don't think horse tastes too good.

[Carol Ames]

ibly than the slaughter house where when they are killed, it is instant- If onlyonly this were true, but, in fact many are not killed but, strung up by a hi:( nd leg, heirhroat slit, and they try bleed to death, can yoyuoimagine how horrid thtatit is fo ra fligt animal to be strung up by a hndleg, it is herethat the thre tthe workersare often injured by kicks because wthe horse is stil allive:eek: :mad: It is NOT euthanasia., and,m I am apalledthat vets t would dsaythat. they should be taken on a tour, and made tosit there and watchwatchthe final moments of these horses they do slaughter.:cry:

[OakesBrae]

Then Carol, it's the conditions that need to be fixed, and not the act itself of slaughter. I think that's part of the issue. There are laws on the books prohibiting things from working this way - why aren't they enforced? Perhaps because the funding was taken away?

[bovon]

Yep, Carol Ames has got it right. I know it's an individual's opinion but how in the hell can anyone treat/ feel as if their horse is livestock. Geebush H.t ap dancin christ.. Actually, I feel sorry for any individual who views his/her horse as livestock. They are missing out on a true wondeful soul/spiritual connection. but than again it's just "livestock" to some. I think those are the same people who call horses "dumb animals"..hmmm, I'm wondering who's the dumb one??:confused:

[J Swan]

Gotta disagree with you there, Bovon. My horses are livestock. Though they are coddled and cooed over - they are still livestock. It's not a dirty word, and it's not meant as a derogatory term.

Just like chastising an errant hound investigated a pet dog by shouting "CURDOG" is not meant to denigrate the pet dog - merely classifies that pet dog as a non working dog and to leave it alone.

Anyone who wants to eliminate horses from the livestock category needs to have their head examined. All the land you hunt over, all the places that sell you hay, feed, where you board, train, compete - all that is possible by horses being included in the livestock classification.

By the way - I don't think any other species of livestock is a "dumb animal", either.

[county]

The people I feel sorry for are those who just aren't bright enough to figure out not everyone in the world thinks the same way. My horses are livestock and I interact with them all the time and there kept in excellant shape. There how I make a big part of my living why in the world would anyone think I'd have it any other way?

[gazenna]

Cpunty, I honestly dont think I have ever heard of anyone that has been around more then you have, Wow, you must be a busy man. You must go to auctions all the time to have been to 1000.s.

Oops, I spelled your name wrong.

[county]

And your point is? But tell me gazenna where did you get the idea how many auctions I've been to? But your right I'm usually as busy as I choose to be and I go to auctions every week. But i really have no idea what your point is. Do you?

[Snow Princess]

[QUOTE=Foxhunt4me]

My horses are my property to do with what I please, if I can make $300 bucks selling Trigger instead of paying $500 to put him down and dispose of him thats a good deal.


Now Joel... this is quite a statment.......are you that hard up?
If you can pay a hunt membership could you not afford to just shoot Trigger?

We could take up a collection for you over on FOL>>>>>>>>....

[county]

I can never figure out the idea behind " well if you can afford this etc. etc." Its not about what anyone can afford and never has been. Its about each persons own decision. Some are differant then others wheres the mystery?

[Snow Princess]

Nobody mentioned mystery.... in my books it just makes you a cheap inhumane bastard......... So you choose to transport horses to slaughter.. good for you have a party.........i will shoot mine in the head..

Besides Joel is my FOL pal and we had our own "Shoot yer horse in the head thread on FOL.... i am trying to convert him to be a shooter instead of a shipper... the trailer ride is too evil and with the high cost of fuel these days the shipping/tightwad type will be whining that the fuel alone to get old Trigger to death camp is to high...........
Economics ( the cheap cost of bullet's) will bring them round to my shooting in the head concept... it's my own Joel coversion agenda... But thanks for your interest.........

[county]

Well I could get into personal attacks also but your obviously to stupid to bother with.

[Snow Princess]

Now how bout some good old fashioned name calling....... Stupid... how kindergarten like...........
At least i am honest as to my opinon........so kiss my ass and don't reply to my posts... i could care less what you think .. go back under whatever rock you crawled out from under.

You are really pressing my hunt manners to the limits here... but that is how i treat all of the creepy old farmers who are full of crap at sales.. and guess what else old man.. i bet i have sold more horses than you...

"sings the Johnny Cash Tune"...Rock Island Line........I'VE GOT LIVESTOCK.. ALL LIVESTOCK...... I'VE GOT COWS.. I GOT PIGS I GOT SHEEP... I'VE GOT MULES............... I'VE GOT ALL LIVESTOCK.

[SimpsoMatt]

i am trying to convert him to be a shooter instead of a shipper... the trailer ride is too evil

Somewhere in one of the many slaughter debates I've read on the net, somebody posted a slogan "On the hook, not on the hoof" ... meaning it's better to slaughter horses as close to home as possible, then haul the carcass "on the hook" for processing, instead of cramming live horses into semis for long hauls to one of the only 3 slaughterhouses in the country. Interesting thought ... more slaughterhouses could reduce one of the worst things about slaughter .. the evil trailer ride.

[county]

ROTFLMAO!!!! I stand corrected its REALLY STUPID!!!!!!!

[Snow Princess]

Although i had thought of leaving this thread to die a miserable death it's hard to get over the "stupid" one liners....

Seems like this troll needs to always have the last say......how about you add some intellectual thought to the discussion?

Big whoopers... you worked in a slaughter house...it does not make you an expert on the subject it makes you a blue collar worker..

There used to be a slaughter house right on my REAL farm... so if Trigger broke his leg he could be humanely disposed of... not crammed onto the over crowded semi to get his head bashed in...

This is how i came to my own conclusions about shooting yer horse in the head when he's no good anymore....all good things must come to an end.. and the more humane method the better ..

So bring it on County.........i don't mind a little personal attacking... in fact i look forward to showing you just how stupid i am..i also don't think you are a foxhunter... Please excuse me for quitting last night.. i am an early riser but more than game to-day...

I apologize to my fellow hunter's but i had to rip into County for the assumption that i am stupid on this issue...

Perhaps he should not delve into a custom post made for Joel where he does not get the innuendo becasue he was not involved in the shoot yer horse in the head discussion ..?

More slaughter houses is how they deal with it in the UK... and it may not be perfect but it does help eliminate the marathon hauling which is a big part of the inhumanity.

[Snow Princess]

Although i had thought of leaving this thread to die a miserable death it's hard to get over the "stupid" one liners....

Seems like this slaughter expert needs to always have the last say......how about you add some intellectual thought to the discussion?

Big whoopers... you worked in a slaughter house...it does not make you an expert on the subject it makes you a blue collar worker..

There used to be a slaughter house right on my REAL farm... so if Trigger broke his leg he could be humanely disposed of... not crammed onto the over crowded semi to get his head bashed in...

This is how i came to my own conclusions about shooting yer horse in the head when he's no good anymore....all good things must come to an end.. and the more humane method the better ..

So bring it on County.........i don't mind a little personal attacking... in fact i look forward to showing you just how stupid i am..i also don't think you are a foxhunter... Please excuse me for quitting last night.. i am an early riser but more than game to-day...

I apologize to my fellow hunter's but i had to rip into County for the assumption that i am stupid on this issue...

Perhaps he should not delve into a custom post made for Joel where he does not get the innuendo becasue he was not involved in the shoot yer horse in the head discussion ..?

More slaughter houses is how they deal with it in the UK... and it may not be perfect but it does help eliminate the marathon hauling which is a big part of the inhumanity.

[county]

The one and only reason I think your stupid is because your obviously not bright enough to hold a discussion without making persdonal attacks and using profanity. Intellectual thought? Your kidding right is that what you call your posts? Your the one that took the first shot and if your a representitive of the anti slaughter fraction then I'll have to say there all stupid. But I think most of them are much brighter then your ever going to be.


BTW exactly what is a " REAL " farm?