Scary, Scary Question: Hoof Critique? [Archive]

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 11:37 AM

I'm not sure I like the farrier this barn uses. I've never really had a problem with cracked hooves and it seems to me she's high on the inside on all four feet? I've also never seen her toes quite this long on the front.

So, while I have no idea what I'll need to do to bring in a new farrier [I've pretty much ticked this BO and wife off because I've ceased using them as my trainers, and have also started to buy my own feed], I'm curious to know what is wrong with her feet from experienced hoof people. This farrier doesn't seem like he'd pay much attention to a sixteen year old, but I will talk to him nevertheless.

Front Hooves (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture001.jpg)
Left Front #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture012.jpg)
Left Front #2 [I know it says right] (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture011.jpg)
Left Front #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture002.jpg)
Right Front #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture008.jpg)
Right Front #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture011.jpg)
Right Front #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture003.jpg)

Hind Hooves (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture004.jpg)
Right Hind #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture014.jpg)
Right Hind #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture013.jpg)
Right Hind #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture005.jpg)
Left Hind #1 (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/?action=view&current=Picture010.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch9)
Left Hind #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture009.jpg)
Left Hind #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture006.jpg)

I only have two pictures from this past Christmas (before we moved here to Atlanta), and I doubt they'll help much, but here you go:

Front Feet (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_4.jpg)
Left Front (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_8.jpg)

I also don't really have many good conformation critiques, but you can tell (for the most part) how she typically stands:

Standing (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/?action=view&current=Picture015.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch4)

Her right hind points out quite a bit, and although she's cow hocked, I'm not sure that's normal?

Other conformation faults would include a long back and shallow hip angle.

Disclaimer: I tried really hard to get a dead-on, straight picture, but some of them may be a tad tilted one way or the other.

cosmos mom

Jul. 20, 2006, 11:54 AM

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:02 PM

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FEET BUT IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU MIGHT BE ONE OF THOSE BOARDES THAT MIGHT BE A NIGHTMARE TO HAVE.I WOULD ASK YOU TO FIND A NEW BARN TO BOARD AT YOU SEEM TO KNOW MORE THAN THE BO'S...THE HAY CUTTERS....AND NOW THE FARRIER

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:08 PM

Well, Nohafoot, that was uncalled for. :no:

Anyway, there's tooooo much hoof and the heels are soooooo contracted. She is quite out of balance.

PM me with your location. It's possible that my farrier, who travels to mid-Georgia to do special cases, could pop in and have at her.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:15 PM

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:16 PM

nohafoot- I believe you're absolutely correct. I'm sure I annoy the h*** out of them, but I can promise you that nothing I do is founded on a whim, or because I'm trying to spite them. I've repeatedly made it clear to them that I will come and do anything extra to make it easier for them, I have weedeated and cleaned out several of their paddocks that were in dire need of attention, and I care too much about what goes into my mare and what is done to her to not change something because it might be a bit of a hassle for the BOs.

I was very close with my old BO and was often told how irritating it is to have to play "chemistry lab" at feeding time, but when the hay is BROWN, dusty, and she's not keeping her weight...sorry...I will be a witch to solve the problem, if need be. Fortunately, the BOs were supportive of my feed change.

I also do not plan on storming into the barn today and declare their farrier unfit to trim and shoe horses and other such filth. I will talk to the farrier myself, and if that doesn't accomplish anything, I will change.

While I can understand why you would say what you did, you do not have all the facts, you do not know me nor my horse, and you do not know the situation.

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:21 PM

Here are pics of your horse's left and right fronts with a line drawn to show how much extra hoof there is to be removed.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:23 PM

Here are pics of your horse's left and right fronts with a line drawn to show how much extra hoof there is to be removed.

:eek:

No kidding!

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:23 PM

how long and how many times has he done your horse.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:26 PM

He's been doing her feet for the past four months or so.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:29 PM

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:31 PM

Um, are we still in kindergarten, or is somebody a little grumpy?

Instead of taking potshots at everyone, can you post what YOU think should be done?

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:45 PM

roo im sorry your right the farrier you have has reset your horse mabey 2x so contracted heels he did not do he could dress the foot more down set the shoe back a little but its not the worst job ive seen and we dont know what the horse looked like before he started but i will be on the GA-AL line rebuilding a hoof wall for someone if your barn is close ill swing in and take a look and see the horse move and so on...no charge if your pretty close

cosmos mom

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:47 PM

nohafoot- why don't you turn off your caps lock and take a valium?

OP said she's 16. In my experience most 16 year olds are a PITA (:lol:), but it dosen't mean they don't deserve advice when they are asking for it. BTW, I agree with ChocoMare's assessment of how long these feet really are!

17handtb

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:50 PM

You're not being a witch. You're being a caring owner who is also trying to be diplomatic and to keep the peace with your current BOs. It's not like you're calling them at all hours to berate them, or storming up to them and giving them hell; you're just raising concerns, which IS your right to do.

Without having all the facts, I do have to ask if it's an option for you to move your horse to another barn? If you're having to deal with BROWN and dusty hay :no: , YOU'RE the one who ends up having to take action to clear out weeds in the paddocks, and you're faced with a farrier you're not happy with...sounds like a bigger change may be in order.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:53 PM

so your in the sam boat that you shoul just cut about a full 1-2" right off.....mabey im wrong....he might not bleed or limp for a few weeks...con i come and ride with yall and see how you guys shoe

besjoux

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:53 PM

the heels are soooooo contracted. THANK YOU FARRIER FOR YOUR SOUND ADVICE FROM THE JUST PIC'S THE QUESTION IS HOW LONG HAS THIS FARRIER BEEN DOING YOUR HORSE CONTRACTED HEELS DO NOT HAPPEN OVER NIGHT....LOOK BACK AT THE POSTERS LAST POSTS. DONT MEAN TO BE A AZZ BUT ONE MUST SEE THE FULL STORY

Goodness, I have to agree with you some.....though word a bit differently. I too, have one of those adolescent owners that is on her last legs at our barn.....for some reason she thinks she knows more than the BO who has been doing this for longer than she has been alive.

And to think, her horse is the most ill mannered, owner more irresponsible than the other owners......but yet she cannot listen to anyone's advice.....and is passive aggressive.

Auventera Two

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:54 PM

Here are pics of your horse's left and right fronts with a line drawn to show how much extra hoof there is to be removed.

PLEASE GOD PUT THAT PIC WITH THE LINES AND EVERY THING ON HORSESHOES.COM PLEASE DO.....CHOCO MARE SO HOW LONG YOU BEEN A FARRIER IM AT A LOST FOR WORDS AT WHAT I JUST SEEN.

Nohafoot - you need to find another board to troll my dear ;) Get your emotions under control and act like an adult.

The drawings choco mare have posted are CORRECT. There is a LOT of excess foot on this horse. Obviously it can't be all hacked off in one fell swoop, but over time, the size of these hooves should decrease dramatically with proper trimming. And that is the point choco mare was illustrating. I don't believe any foot savy person on this board would think that she is suggesting hacking off half the foot and hope the animal doesn't bleed. ;) This takes time over many trims to accomplish. The feet are contracted with toes that are too long and run forward.

Auventera Two

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:58 PM

Goodness, I have to agree with you some.....though word a bit differently. I too, have one of those adolescent owners that is on her last legs at our barn.....for some reason she thinks she knows more than the BO who has been doing this for longer than she has been alive.

And to think, her horse is the most ill mannered, owner more irresponsible than the other owners......but yet she cannot listen to anyone's advice.....and is passive aggressive.

And is your implication that this original poster is the same?

cosmos mom

Jul. 20, 2006, 12:59 PM

so your in the sam boat that you shoul just cut about a full 1-2" right off.....mabey im wrong....he might not bleed or limp for a few weeks...con i come and ride with yall and see how you guys shoe

How, exactly would I be in the same boat since I do not have hooves? If instead you are suggesting cutting into my bare, human foot, you may have some mental problems on top of your inability to use the spell check function. You don't lop the excess wall off, you gradually change it to make the foot more balanced and remove the excess. Horses don't bleed when you remove excess wall, or at least I have not seen any that do.

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:03 PM

Thanks TS. And to clarify, NO I am in no way, shape or form suggesting that someone just come in and hack off that much on the first trim. It must be done slowly and methodically, but it needs to be done.

And the comments about r.oo should cease. You don't know this girl from a hole in the wall. If you read her past posts, you will see that she has been quite polite and desires to learn. Remember the rules of COTH: be nice first. You were young once too and had to learn.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:15 PM

Well, the feet are too long, overgrowing the shoes and out of balance just as the OP suspected. How long has it been since this horse was last trimmed and shod?

And, you can take off a bunch of foot in one fell swoop and if done correctly, won't harm the horse in the least. It may take a few days for the horse to find its feet, but NBD. The hinds need trimming and balancing too but not as much as the fronts do.

There is a really top notch farrier(actually several) right there in Atlanta so if you PM me, I'll be happy to give you his name.

And, do post those questions/pictures etc, over at www.horseshoes.com. You'll get some really good advise and probably some opinions that may chafe you in a really tender spot. Don't mind the brusqueness, the guys and gals over there are top notch and you'll get a game plan that will work.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:15 PM

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:21 PM

paul how much would you say could be took off in one swoop with this horse in just a pic and look at the sole pic....i for real not looking for back and forth thing....

besjoux

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:26 PM

And is your implication that this original poster is the same?

Maybe not......I just have a bug up my butt from 1 complaining boarder who is young and not willing to learn. I am probably, unrealistically, judging the same based on age......which is equally incorrect.

barney4liz

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:27 PM

well how long would you guys think it would take to get that much of the foot off. in all of you guys experience. and could you list those experience..and what would you do for contracted heels....the balance things i consider a small fix but this bad farrier shes talking about has been doing this horse a very very small time. and yea i quess i could troll other boards but the you will have horse owners giving advice on somthing they know very little about.

Honest, competent farriers have nothing to fear from horse owners getting advice anywhere they darn well choose. Last time I checked -- I, the horse owner, was paying the bills.

If your posts are a reflection of your skill in farriery -- welcome to my "ignore" list.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:47 PM

thats right you do pay the bills and good farriers love when horse owners come at them with what they read in mags and see on tv and tell the farrier how they pay the bills to do what i say and not what is right...and thats when good farriers say thank you for the open spot for a new client then we see you on this board cry about your new farrier until you can find a good one. As farrierS we do not owe you anything but to care for your horse and do whats right for your horse i will not stroke your ego because you got money. So does the 5 calls a week good farriers turn down every week but if you pump your brakes just a bit and not think its all about me and my checkbook you might learn something and your farrier will become your trusted friend. sometimes it takes the truth for someone to see thats mabey its some things your doing not everone else is to blame

barney4liz

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:56 PM

Oh, and nohafoot, please let us know where else you post and under what username(s) so we can ignore you there as well.

philosoraptor

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:56 PM

I'm no farrier but my gut tells me there are some glaring problems with the feet in that pic. I do agree it looks like alot needs to come off, but it make take several trimming cycles.

How much time as gone by since the last time the farrier visited?

Here's what I'd do: I'd ask my local horse friends for a recommendation of a good farrier. Get the new farrier out (without telling him anything about the COTH thread of course) & see what changes he suggests.

I wouldn't bother going to horseshoes.com . For every useful reply you get, you'll get 5 nasty comments that don't help you in the least. A few of them seem to have a grudge against horse owners, which is ironic considering what line of work they chose. :lol:

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 01:58 PM

We are in no way telling the OP, or anyone else for that matter, to take what they read here, there, etc. and MAKE their farrier do what they say. A wise, sensible horse persons learns and works with their farrier, in an adult and respectful manner....sharing information, asking more questions, etc.

I have a fantastic working relationship with my farrier. If I have a concern, I politely ask about it. We talk over things I've read, seen, heard. I get her take on them. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. BUT that doesn't keep me from using her. She's is a very good farrier and does what is best for the horse. When I asked about my app going barefoot, she said "Well, let's take some time and study your mare's feet and come to a decision together." There, done. She didn't get her chaps in a knot or get all huffy. WE discussed it and then went forward.

We are not telling r.oo to take what's been posted here as GOSPEL and be nasty about it. It should be part of her overall hoof education. Her gut was talling her something was wrong with the mare's feet. She was right. She came to a trusted source to begin the journey into getting her mare trimmed right. She has proven herself to be a very mature 16 and wants what's best for her mare.

cosmos mom

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:13 PM

flshgordon

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:17 PM

nohafoot---please tell me are you anywhere near Texas? Because down here, a lot of people I know go out of their way to avoid pompous jerks like you!!!! As someone said....I would like to add you to my "ignore" list plus the list of "this horse care provider thinks he is better than the world and clients should be blessed to have him!"

As a person who has gone OUT OF MY WAY to have my farrier to follow me to two barns now--over a period of 6 years--(and even though he is in huge demand he has done it), I can understand why people get pissed at their farriers/vets/trainers who act the way you do---as if all clients are ridiculous and they couldn't possibly have a clue/idea/suggestion that is valid to their horses' care.

The OP didn't seem unreasonable to me at all and CLEARLY there are some problems going on with those seriously long toes. Is it wrong for her to want to change that because she's young and not allowed to have an opinion?

And Chocomare's suggestion of where the feet SHOULD be....I would agree with that and I didn't take it at all that she meant to whack it all off at once tomorrow. Quit hovering over the overreact button and I bet your blood pressure will level off.

Any farrier who gets annoyed at his clients for reading & trying to learn more about horse care and then wanting to discuss different options needs a new profession like for instance Dictator of a small Country :rolleyes:

Crooked Horse

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:18 PM

fourmares

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:22 PM

Ivanator

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:24 PM

I must agree with Cosmos mom. First of all, this board is for advice and is here to help guide those who truly seek knowledge.
Secondly, I too could hardly understand your posts. Personally, I find that very unprofessional. How could I trust my farrier to do his best, if he cannot even articulate to me important information regarding my horse's feet?! :no:

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:28 PM

barney4liz

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:31 PM

nohafoot- You seem to be making a lot of harsh assumptions and offering nothing but criticisms to the OP (who is, I might add, A YOUNG GIRL!!!!) and the people trying to help her. What's more, your grammar and spelling is horrendous. Welcome to my ignore list, you will probably be lonely and you are the only person on it!

:lol: :lol: nohafoot is the first and only on my ignore list, too. If he's trying to be an ambassador for his profession -- he is failing miserably.

BeastieSlave

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:32 PM

So what exactly are your qualifications nohafoot? I went and looked at your posts. There was some helpful stuff, but not really enough for me to be able to tell that you have anything worth enduring all the CAPS and insults for.

Surely, you must agree that the OP should at least talk to her farrier about this horse's feet. She has gotten some advice that will probably be helpful in that discussion. I notice that none of it has come from you. It took several posts before you would even admit that some adjustments needed to be made. I appreciate that you probably feel a need to stick up for a fellow farrier, but roo asked for advice. If you are so qualified, why don't you give some that will actually help her?

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:32 PM

paul how much would you say could be took off in one swoop with this horse in just a pic and look at the sole pic....i for real not looking for back and forth thing....
I know you're going to hate me, but "It Depends" :sadsmile: In this case since we can't see the hoof without the shoe, and having only that sole view and the side view to go by, It would be wrong to say, "chop off an inch at the toe and half and inch at the heels" or anything else of that sort.

Even though there are external points to help map out the foot and where p3 lies within the hoof capsule, etc, this is one of those instances where you need to actually be there and exfoliate the sole to see where live sole begins to give you any idea of how deep the cuts can be.

While I probably wouldn't remove as much as is indicated by the pics with the lines drawn, but I'll bet it would be relatively close to that amount.

What is evident from the photos is that either it has been quite a while since the last shoeing appointment, or the farrier really left the feet too long to begin with and now the hoof has overgrown the shoe, pulled it forward and as a result there is neither heel support or proper toe breakover location.

But I do agree with you on one thing. The client is the horse and the customer is the person paying. And all that priviledge gets the customer is the right to write the check or pay in cash or in some cases, by credit card.
I'm more than willing to discuss concerns, but when a customer starts telling me how to do my job, its AMF!

As Mr. Meiagi would say, "Oh Daniel-san, must have barance, must have barance(sic)....":)

By the way, is "Nohafoot" Indian for "no foot, no horse'? :D

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:38 PM

cosmos mom

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:38 PM

As Mr. Meiagi would say, "Oh Daniel-san, must have barance, must have barance(sic)....":)

He He! I am always striving for BARANCE!!!!!:D

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:45 PM

I have to back hanofoot up at least a little bit. You can not take a photograph of a horses feet and draw a line and say that the hoof needs to be this length... You can only determine that by getting under the horse with a hoof knife and looking at the bottom of the feet...

Just looking at the first four pictures, and admitting that I am not a farrier... I can see that the angle of the hoof changes about 1/2 an inch below the cornet... What I think my farrier would do is set the whole shoe back about an inch, leaving shoe out the back to encourage the heel to grow that way and give support, and rasp the toe back to where it would be if the hoof continued to grow on the angle that it came out of the cornet (depending of course on there being enough wall to do that).

......AND YOU ARE CORRECT......THE LITTLE LINES SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUT FROM THE TOP DOWN TO SEE JUST HOW FAR THE TOE IS OUT IM STILL WAITING TO HEAR EVERYONES TAKE ON THE CONTRACTED HEELS AND SORRY FOR THE SPELLING AND GRAMMER I SHOE HORSES NOT TEACH SCHOOL BUT I BET I MAKE MORE MONEY THAN A TEACHER....what i see in the pic is a pretty easy fix not something to go crazy about like cut this cut that fire the farrier move barns you should hear yourselves and it happens alot

Ok, the contracted heels: Pull the shoes, trim the excess hoof, balance medial/lateral and leave the shoes off to let the heels decontract and the hoof spread. Yup, there I go. Suggesting barefoot again.

That mare has nice feet, despite the out of balance issues. Unless the OP is riding that mare on asphalt every day, I just don't see a need for shoes in this particular case. I am not telling her she MUST let the mare go barefoot. It is a suggestion to add to her bucket of information so she and her farrier can make an informed decision.

Oh and Noha....I would suggest you leave the CAP LOCK off when posting. It looks like yelling and is a general no-no in COTH-land ;)

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:47 PM

I wouldn't bother going to horseshoes.com . For every useful reply you get, you'll get 5 nasty comments that don't help

lets say you get 25 thats 5 good ones but one does not wont to get thier feelings hurt so lets not do whats best for the horse

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:53 PM

Ok, the contracted heels: Pull the shoes, trim the excess hoof, balance medial/lateral and leave the shoes off to let the heels decontract and the hoof spread. Yup, there I go. Suggesting barefoot again

i could go for that because the foot looks like a good foot im firm in some horses can go barefoot

let say it cant go barefoot what do you think about heel springs.

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 02:56 PM

I cannot comment as to "heel springs" because that is outside my realm of knowledge. Perhaps SLB might chime in later about that issue.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:05 PM

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:10 PM

I wouldn't bother going to horseshoes.com . For every useful reply you get, you'll get 5 nasty comments that don't help
I think it is fair to say that your percentages are way, way off.

It has been my observation, thus far, that most of the Ummm what did Matroyshka call it? Oh yeah, "unnecessary roughness" on horseshoes.com happens between the farriers there. Its true that from time to time, owners get targeted, but most generally, they have earned the priviledge of entering the arena as targets of the sportsmen/women who tend to treat with less than kindness and gentleness those who so obviously do not deserve to have horses under their stewardship.

Don't know if you participate on those forums under a different screen name, but it might be entertaining to see how you are received over there.

I sense a somewhat kindrid spirit in you. There is at least one other guy over on horseshoes.com who might appreciate you point of view and how you express it and you might appreciate his.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nohafoot
I wouldn't bother going to horseshoes.com . For every useful reply you get, you'll get 5 nasty comments that don't help

paul sorry i did not post that someone else did i just did not put the liitle highlight gray thing on it... my comment was under that.... it was that it was foolish for someone to post that quote....good stuff on that bb highly suggest one must visit.....

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:21 PM

Fair enough!

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:22 PM

paul no me and phil do not see eye to eye on anything...lol

ChocoMare

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:22 PM

Nohafoot: If you want to properly use a quote from a poster, simply click on the QUOTE button at the bottom right of the particular post you wish to quote. ;)

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:25 PM

Ooo! I go to the feed store, come back, and have 44+ posts...schnazzy :D

NOW I know what to post to get people to reply :lol:

I'll try to answer all the questions I encountered while skimming through the latest posts.

It's been roughly 3-4 weeks since the last trimming. Hence why I went ahead and took pictures and posted them on here.

As for the comments made on my age: Contrary to popular belief, I do not make it my life's goal to question any and all authority and poo-poo what they say. However, after having been to two barns since moving from Savannah [both unpleasant], I'm learning to stick up for myself for the sake of my horse. I don't like talking to adults. It intimidates me when I'm suggesting they do something simply because I want to do it, and I think it's a good idea. I've never wanted to create any sort of confrontation between myself and the BOs but my four year old mare has been through a lot that she shouldn't have to have been through because I was afraid to confront someone older than myself. She's already got hock issues at four...FOUR...because I was too scared to approach my old trainer and tell her I wasn't comfortable riding her everyday for an hour plus at two years old. I was afraid to confront a BO at another barn because my mare had lost a lot of weight, but I didn't want to make things difficult for her. I have always been told that I'm responsible, hard working, and conscientious by both employers and barn owners. I will never be purposefully rude, as that never accomplishes much, but I'm getting to the point where I want to be heard for what I think instead of being pat on the head and sent on my way because, "oh isn't it cute that she's got an opinion".

For the record, I have also NEVER approached anyone and TOLD them to do anything. Anytime I've wanted to do something (bring in my own trainer, switch feeds) I have asked the BO's what their opinion would be, and finnagle the situation so I can slip in what I think. I don't walk up to them and force my ideas on them. I disagree with much of what's done at this barn, but I do realize they have more experience than I do. [I]However I will not sacrifice the health of my mare because it might be inconvenient.

I also realize that the best things for both parties (myself and the BOs) would be to switch barns. Having made two mistakes already, though, I'm hesitant to jump ship so quickly. If the new instructor I'm brining in is someone I really like and respect, I will most likely move both Lulu and I over to her place which is only five minutes away.

Kaydence

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:26 PM

paul how do you feel about heel springs or would you even try this horse with them i kinda feel backing the toe up might help that problem some to the point of not having heel springs...the horse needs some expan room in the heels imo

I'd be inclined to set the toe back, rocker or roll the toe, pour in some equi-thane pads, and get a lot more heel hanging out the back on the shoe. I'd also recommend the horse be on a 4 to 5 week schedule to start and would probably lengthen that out to 5 to 6 weeks after there was improvement in the heels. And if the horse needs the shoes for protection and/or traction, I'd be protecting the hind feet as well. If the horse can go without shoes, I'd probably pull the shoes after decontracting the heels and keep him barefoot.

I'd be very suprised if the OP said these pics were of feet that were only a couple weeks into the set. They look like they are a minimum of six weeks post-farrier visit and probably a more. I thought I saw a post asking how long ago the farrier saw this horse but I didn't see an answer to that question.

As to not posting over at www.horseshoes.com HUH? I suppose if your ego is more important than your horses well being, that is the conclusion to come to. If you keep asking in all sorts of places, you'll eventually hear the answers you want to hear but if you ask questions in the right places, you might actually hear the answers your horse wants you to hear.

Auventera Two

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:34 PM

As to not posting over at www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com) HUH? I suppose if your ego is more important than your horses well being, that is the conclusion to come to. If you keep asking in all sorts of places, you'll eventually hear the answers you want to hear but if you ask questions in the right places, you might actually hear the answers your horse wants you to hear.

I don't think it has anything to do with the horse owner's ego, but rather that of the farriers on horseshoes.com. ;) There are quite a few haughtie taughties over there who thinks their s*** don't stink, if you know what I mean.

There are plenty of other places to ask hoof related questions. Equinextion is wonderful. You can also simply visit the AFA or AAHNCP websites, search for a farrier or trimmer in your area, and call them up. Get an opinion from a live body on the other end of the phone, or invite them to come out. Or email them pictures.

You can also email photos to people like Marjorie Smith (www.barefoothorse.com (http://www.barefoothorse.com).) She welcomes photos and will try to help in anyway she can.

The American Farrier's Journal also has a forum where you can post questions.

Trust me, there are MANY other sources of good hoof information than horseshoes.com! For what its worth - I like to read the articles on horseshoes.com but can't stand visiting the forum. The forum is nothing but a bitch fest with horse owners being served up for dinner on a platter of rice. No thanks!

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:36 PM

I'd be inclined to set the toe back, rocker or roll the toe, pour in some equi-thane pads, and get a lot more heel hanging out the back on the shoe. I'd also recommend the horse be on a 4 to 5 week schedule to start and would probably lengthen that out to 5 to 6 weeks after there was improvement in the heels. And if the horse needs the shoes for protection and/or traction, I'd be protecting the hind feet as well. If the horse can go without shoes, I'd probably pull the shoes after decontracting the heels and keep him barefoot.

I'd be very suprised if the OP said these pics were of feet that were only a couple weeks into the set. They look like they are a minimum of six weeks post-farrier visit and probably a more. I thought I saw a post asking how long ago the farrier saw this horse but I didn't see an answer to that question.

As to not posting over at www.horseshoes.com HUH? I suppose if your ego is more important than your horses well being, that is the conclusion to come to. If you keep asking in all sorts of places, you'll eventually hear the answers you want to hear but if you ask questions in the right places, you might actually hear the answers your horse wants you to hear.

No, it's actually only been 3-4 weeks maximum.

This is why I'm so concerned. She's also been throwing shoes much more frequently than she EVER has. My old farrier loved doing her feet.

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:44 PM

[QUOTE=Two Simple]I don't think it has anything to do with the horse owner's ego, but rather that of the farriers on horseshoes.com. ;) There are quite a few haughtie taughties over there who thinks their s*** don't stink, if you know what I mean.

mabey they are just the best at what they do.....beware of the farrier with the best manners and the one that can tell a good story...and a good cheap price...it my be all he really has to offer. we are farriers not your feelgood therapist for every 5 poor horse owners thier are 15 good ones

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 03:49 PM

I'd be very suprised if the OP said these pics were of feet that were only a couple weeks into the set. They look like they are a minimum of six weeks post-farrier visit and probably a more. I thought I saw a post asking how long ago the farrier saw this horse but I didn't see an answer to that question.
Ask and yea shall receive:
It's been roughly 3-4 weeks since the last trimming.
Appears to me that that the farrier's "Give a Damn" was broken at least that day, and if this is a sample of his/her regular/rotine work, absent some exigent circumstance, permanently.

I pretty much agree with what you suggest as remedial action though I might suggest the barefoot option right from the start. As with everything, :D It Depends:D
paul how do you feel about heel springs or would you even try this horse with them i kinda feel backing the toe up might help that problem some to the point of not having heel springs...the horse needs some expan room in the heels imo
I'm not much of a fan of heel springs. I know some farriers have good luck with them, but I'm not one of them. I think I'd keep that option open and if the contraction did'nt get better using other methods, or if it got worse, then I'd revist that approach. Initially, if I was shoeing the horse, I'd set the breakover way, way, back and get that heel support out behind him a bunch more too. I'm not so sure I'd cover that frog with either a pad or Equipak until I got rid of the infection that is present in the central sulcus. I agree that the horse needs some expansion room in the heels, and to that end, I would also consider some short horizontal cuts with a hacksaw blade from the quarters rearward. Maybe a vertical line of two or three horizontal cuts on each side of the hoof. Or, perhaps just some coronary grooving.

And, here we go again, "It Depends":)
If you keep asking in all sorts of places, you'll eventually hear the answers you want to hear
I think it is well past time for someone to establish a forum where people can write in with their questions and concerns and also tell everyone what it is, exactly, that they want to hear. then, everyone who responds can be a hero and the OP gets their ego stroked even though it will probably be to the detriment of the horse.:lol:

To r.oo: For a sixteen year old, you seem to be remarkably well grounded!
There are many adults who would not have remained as calm and collected as you have. Along with my daughter, you give me hope for the future of all of us, human and otherwise.
(For those who expected sarcasm from me, hang on! It's neither gone nor forgotten. I'm just saving it for those who so richly and justly deserve it;) )

summerhorse

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:02 PM

It's Time for a NEW FARRIER! Pronto!

Is there a reason for her to be wearing shoes in front? (maybe that's been asked already, sorry if it has). They seem to be a bit um, big? =)

Kaydence

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:05 PM

']No, it's actually only been 3-4 weeks maximum.

This is why I'm so concerned. She's also been throwing shoes much more frequently than she EVER has. My old farrier loved doing her feet.

I sent you a pm

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:09 PM

mabey they are just the best at what they do.....beware of the farrier with the best manners and the one that can tell a good story...and a good cheap price...it my be all he really has to offer. we are farriers not your feelgood therapist for every 5 poor horse owners thier are 15 good ones

That still doesn't give anyone the right to talk down to anyone or dismiss them because they are young or "just" a horse owner, which is what many of "you guys" do. I have been the subject of many fairly nasty words because *gasp* I just trim a few horses and don't have AFA or CFJ at the end of my name. I have witnessed young people patronized purely because of their age. I feel sorry for any of your clients who are too afraid to ask you any questions for fear you will they'd be fired :no:

r.oo and l.ulu, you are doing a fine job in what seems like a few situations that are less than fine. Boarding situations are difficult, especially when you are "just a kid". How are you supposed to learn if you don't ask questions? You've already found out through 2 different topics (training, feed) that you don't exactly trust your current situation. That would surely lead me to be wary about trusting it in this situation as well.

I totally agree there's about half these front feet that need to go bye-bye. How quickly you can get there depends on the farrier/trimmer and the horse, and to some degree, your ability and desire to help things along. Things like walking on asphalt for 20 minutes a day (barefoot) can help immensely. If you don't have asphalt/concrete and only have grass pasture and sand rings to ride on, things will take a little longer. Boots will help (barefoot again) and inserts can be used to help provide a bit more abrasivie footing.

Good luck with this, your horse is lucky to have you!

CoolMeadows

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:15 PM

Paul, will you marry me? Or at least come shoe my horses?

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:18 PM

I don't think it has anything to do with the horse owner's ego, but rather that of the farriers on horseshoes.com. ;) There are quite a few haughtie taughties over there who thinks their s*** don't stink, if you know what I mean.
Sounds like you got your t*t caught in a wringer over there. Did you perhaps deserve it? And maybe its just me, but I've seen and read the same sort of stuff here on COTH, and find that there appear to be several "haughtie taughties" right here. The difference is, those farriers tend to know what they're talking about and most of the HT's over here, don't.
Trust me, there are MANY other sources of good hoof information than horseshoes.com!
We should 'trust you' why? Word for word, horseshoes.com has repeatedly offered the best advise for hoofcare that you'll find anywhere. Bar none!
No where else on the internet will you find the experience, knowledge and ability that is routinely shown there. You get farriers from around the world weighing in with great advise and sometime, scathing opinions.
For what its worth - I like to read the articles on horseshoes.com but can't stand visiting the forum.
Horseshoes.com forums are not for the weak of heart, thin of skin or those more concerned with getting their egos bruised than the welfare of their horse(s).
The forum is nothing but a bitch fest with horse owners being served up for dinner on a platter of rice.
That is an outright lie. Things can and do get testy over there at times, but your allegation damns everyone and everything said on the forums. It just ain't the case.

And most of those other websites you referenced are nothing more than barefoot only propoganda sites. So long as you want to only keep your horse barefoot, and remain deaf, dumb and blind to reality, you should indeed habituate those sites.

What I've seen over at horseshoes.com is that anyone dumb enough or foolish enough to come up on their forums and spout the mantra of the "death to farriers because only barefoot is right" ad naseum, routinely gets thrown to the lions. That's a blood sport over there and while the blood of innocent Christians is not spilled, the blood of the barefoot zealot is. Fair warning!

BeastieSlave

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:23 PM

Paul, will you marry me? Or at least come shoe my horses?

Man, I was just thinking "I like this guy!" too.

I was also thinking how lucky I am to have a farrier with good manners, good stories, and super prices, as well as being a jam-up professional who always manages to come when I need him - even though he stays super busy!

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:27 PM

Paul, will you marry me? Or at least come shoe my horses?
Only if you're filthy rich, will guarantee me in writing a huge dowery, agree to support me in a lifestyle I can become accustomed to, and will let me have as many girlfriends as I feel necessary. Did I mention that being Playmate of the Year would definately work in your favor?:D

MBPearls

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:48 PM

And most of those other websites you referenced are nothing more than barefoot only propoganda sites. So long as you want to only keep your horse barefoot, and remain deaf, dumb and blind to reality, you should indeed habituate those sites.

Just a question, since this seemed worded rather harshly, and I mean no ill will.

Why do you generalize barefoot enthusiasts as being deaf, dumb and blind?

nohafoot

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:54 PM

I was also thinking how lucky I am to have a farrier with good manners, good stories, and super prices, as well as being a jam-up professional who always manages to come when I need him - even though he stays super busy![/QUOTE]

nothing wrong with it as long as he does super job.....but we all tend to be a bit nice in person....and if your farrier is super your more than likely a super client.....it goes both ways..i have clients i love and when they call i will fit them in but as farrier we try to help everyone understand it is a two way street so if your farrier is extra nice and good its because your a great client

greysandbays

Jul. 20, 2006, 04:55 PM

If you are so qualified, why don't you give some that will actually help her?

IIRC, he (she?) offered to stop by in person at no charge if the OP was anywhere near line of intended travel..... How much MORE helpful can you expect?

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 05:02 PM

Silly question- please forgive all ignorance in this area.

I said somewhere that this farrier doesn't trim, which isn't necesarily true. He doesn't think much of the barefoot lifestyle, but he routinely "pasture trims" many of the horses.

I know that a well balanced trim is first and foremost even if shoes are being put on, but with how much hoof she needs gone, would it hurt just to pull the shoes altogether to help her self-trim the hoof? She's been barefoot before and never had an issue with it. The reason we have the fronts put on is because of the trainer. His reasoning for having shoes (all of his horses and clients' horses are shod all around) is to protect the hoof, which I never really fully believed, but never bothered to argue against.

She gets ridden roughly 5 days a week in a sand arena, sometimes on the road, and over trails that can be rocky at points. Despite having to wrestle with a few people while defending the change, what are the possible downfalls? If she doesn't need the shoes, what's the point in having them? DO performance horses have trouble going barefoot? I know there are many who do it, but how since, according to the trainer, the hooves would wear down too much?

BeastieSlave

Jul. 20, 2006, 05:02 PM

IIRC, he (she?) offered to stop by in person at no charge if the OP was anywhere near line of intended travel..... How much MORE helpful can you expect?

Yes, it was a very generous offer, but personally, I guess I'd like to know a bit more about what/who I'd be getting before I invited a strange farrier over to 'fix' my horse's feet. I was sort of hoping for a bit of what he might hope to accomplish when he got there, what his thought were about the situation the OP presented....

roo, I'm with you on that! I don't like to put shoes on a horse unless there's a reason. "Everyone else has 'em" isn't a reason. My daughter's TB mare goes well without shoes. She did local hunters and Pony Club without. I thought your horse's feet looked much better barefoot, BTW.

goeslikestink

Jul. 20, 2006, 05:22 PM

yeah have to agree toes are long etc -- roo your ok and doing whats right for your ned and thats what counts--

cool meadow -- he likes tarts-- espacailly apple--- haha

he dont beat about the bush - hes a man of his words--thats for sure

rooo--- your ponys got green eyes --- hahaha

Jul. 20, 2006, 05:34 PM

']
I said somewhere that this farrier doesn't trim, which isn't necesarily true. He doesn't think much of the barefoot lifestyle, but he routinely "pasture trims" many of the horses.

Then he has no business trimming your horse's feet to be barefoot. It rather looks like he has no business trimming them for shoes either.

I know that a well balanced trim is first and foremost even if shoes are being put on, but with how much hoof she needs gone, would it hurt just to pull the shoes altogether to help her self-trim the hoof?
Possibly, yes. A hoof can't just have the shoes pulled and stuck out barefoot and not expect to see some repurcussions. The might be *simply* as mild as chipping, but you can't guarantee that she won't break off a huge chunk on one side and not the other, leaving her very unbalanced. A chunk breaking off on a foot this tall/long might break off so much as to cause pain - breaking off behind the white line, for example. Likely? Dunno. But certainly possible.

She's been barefoot before and never had an issue with it.

How long ago, and was it the current farrier? Some horses can be sound as a dollar despite the trim. It doesn't mean it's making for a healthy foot though.

The reason we have the fronts put on is because of the trainer. His reasoning for having shoes (all of his horses and clients' horses are shod all around) is to protect the hoof, which I never really fully believed, but never bothered to argue against.

Whatever... :rolleyes: And *someone* here claimed that you were the silly forceful one in this boarding situation ;)

She gets ridden roughly 5 days a week in a sand arena, sometimes on the road, and over trails that can be rocky at points. Despite having to wrestle with a few people while defending the change, what are the possible downfalls?
The more varied the terrain, the better the feet. Riding on the road at a walk can help shape and abrade/trim the feet very nicely. Nothing wrong with working in bare feet in a sand ring. Nothing wrong with riding on bare feet on rocky trails. If she can handle the road and the ring, but not the rocky trails, that's what boots are for :)

If she doesn't need the shoes, what's the point in having them?
There isn't any.

DO performance horses have trouble going barefoot? I know there are many who do it, but how since, according to the trainer, the hooves would wear down too much?
"It depends" ;) Depends on the horse, depends on the farrier/trimmer, depends on the environment in which the horse conditions vs shows, depends on the owner's willingness to deal with bare feet, depends on the horse's nutrition. Depends ;) Do all performance horses who are barefoot have trouble? Not at all. Some do, sure, but it's not necessarily simply because they are barefoot. There are folks who have debated on this forum that their horse's feet wear down too much being ridden in a sand/screenings ring for an hour a day, 5 days a week, and others who do 50 mile endurance rides (how's that for abrasive!) and never have to use boots. If (IF!) the feet wear "too much" in 5 hours in a sand ring, why not just use boots for 5 hours a week and let the horse be barefoot the other 163 hours that week?

Your horse looks to have great quality feet. The lack of chipping, the lack of any toe or quarter crack, seems to indicate that the quality is excellent. This goes a long way towards making the transition (back) to barefoot.

The BIG key is to find someone who can competently trim.

Txfarrier11

Jul. 20, 2006, 06:23 PM

....with horse owners being served up for dinner on a platter of rice.

Not a fair statement, I prefer my horse owners served with Fava beans

Auventera Two

Jul. 20, 2006, 06:43 PM

And most of those other websites you referenced are nothing more than barefoot only propoganda sites. So long as you want to only keep your horse barefoot, and remain deaf, dumb and blind to reality, you should indeed habituate those sites.

I take great offense to your assumption that those who choose to maintain their horses barefoot are "deaf, dumb, and blind." That is a grossly inaccurate and ignorant statement at best; hateful and vendictive at worst. As a farrier I would certainly hope that you fully understand the benefits of a barefoot lifestyle to the equine.

I have never, and will never, attack those who wish to shoe their horses and claim they are "deaf, dumb, and blind" for doing so. They simply choose a different lifestyle for their horse for a plethora of reasons. I believe that no good comes from farriers and barefooters stomping their feet and fighting. I think that knowledge can be gained from each other across both sides of the line. I respect those who wish to shoe their horses, although I may not personally agree with their reasons. I do not seek to belittle them, call them names, or otherwise disrespect them for their choice. Instead I will present information to the best of my ability and allow others to make their own decision. I would ask you to consider the same behavior for yourself.

3dayeventing

Jul. 20, 2006, 06:59 PM

:yes: It does seem that your horses toes are to long of which puts strain on the tendons. Also they tend to trip more when their toes are longer. I see feet like this in the hunter world. Not sure why though. I would get a second opinion from another shoer!

']I'm not sure I like the farrier this barn uses. I've never really had a problem with cracked hooves and it seems to me she's high on the inside on all four feet? I've also never seen her toes quite this long on the front.

So, while I have no idea what I'll need to do to bring in a new farrier [I've pretty much ticked this BO and wife off because I've ceased using them as my trainers, and have also started to buy my own feed], I'm curious to know what is wrong with her feet from experienced hoof people. This farrier doesn't seem like he'd pay much attention to a sixteen year old, but I will talk to him nevertheless.

Front Hooves (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture001.jpg)
Left Front #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture012.jpg)
Left Front #2 [I know it says right] (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture011.jpg)
Left Front #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture002.jpg)
Right Front #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture008.jpg)
Right Front #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture011.jpg)
Right Front #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture003.jpg)

Hind Hooves (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture004.jpg)
Right Hind #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture014.jpg)
Right Hind #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture013.jpg)
Right Hind #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture005.jpg)
Left Hind #1 (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/?action=view&current=Picture010.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch9)
Left Hind #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture009.jpg)
Left Hind #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture006.jpg)

I only have two pictures from this past Christmas (before we moved here to Atlanta), and I doubt they'll help much, but here you go:

Front Feet (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_4.jpg)
Left Front (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_8.jpg)

I also don't really have many good conformation critiques, but you can tell (for the most part) how she typically stands:

Standing (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/?action=view&current=Picture015.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch4)

Her right hind points out quite a bit, and although she's cow hocked, I'm not sure that's normal?

Other conformation faults would include a long back and shallow hip angle.

Disclaimer: I tried really hard to get a dead-on, straight picture, but some of them may be a tad tilted one way or the other.

lilblackhorse

Jul. 20, 2006, 07:12 PM

admitting that I am not a farrier...

I SHOE HORSES NOT TEACH SCHOOL

well, what is it then? God, your grammar makes my eyes bleed, but your nasty attitude is far worse.

Gee, many of us know a lot about shoeing and hoof balance, AND we can spell and type. And serve it all up on a plate with pleasantness and courtesy. Maybe you should work on that, eh?

To the OP, you sound like a bright, energetic girl who has done her research. You are correct that your horse's feet need some work---long toes, underrun heels. I am sure that there are some farriers down there, perhaps found with some help from those on this bb, who could help set your horse right.

And stick to your guns---if the barn owners are feeding lousy hay and making bad feed decisions, then you are NOT a nasty kid, you are a paying customer who is concerned about her horse--moving could be a possibility if it continues. It's YOUR horse, and you can make your own decisions about who shoes it.

Hang in there.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 07:58 PM

Well I had yet another unexpected response from the BO.

Asked him when the farrier was coming out next, and he asked me what was wrong. I said (in a poor me, I know nothing voice :D ) that I thought that maybe her toes were a little too long and that maybe her heels were underrun. He then proceeded to tell me that he had quit using his old farrier (the one who's been doing Lulu) for the very same reason (apparently they've gone over this issue again and again) and has begun to use a new farrier. :eek: Talk about an answer to prayers. I thought for sure this was going to be a battleground, but it couldn't have been any easier if someone had presented the news on a silver platter. There IS one slight hitch...I looked at the two horses this new farrier has done and although they DO look better, the heels still look a bit underrun. I just might be able to bring in my own farrier though. *crosses fingers*

I do have another concern that I have voiced here, and elsewhere and am looking for advice/encouragement.

As I stated earlier, my mare has hock issues. More specifically, she was ridden hard as a two year old, and through a confusing series of events (including a pasture accident that made her hock swell up), we had radiographs done a few months ago which showed compression of the cartilage in both hocks. The vet was not specific in how long/when she'd break down, but he said it is possible for it to happen as soon as she's 7 or 8.

If nothing else, this is THE issue that has been weighing on my mind the heaviest.

I had envisioned showing her well into her teens and have her be my "steady" horse that I never sell. While I still do not plan on selling her, I'm very, very worried about her quality of life and ridability from here on out. The BO suggested I do hock injections (into the joint, not IM) once a year. While hock injections are great, I all but refuse to have them done on my four year old.

The BO, while very honest (and I appreciate honesty), has been blunt and told me that he hasn't ever seen a horse drag their hind feet this bad (which is true- if she's not doing an active trot, she drags badly behind. Though, I can't tell if this is because of her conformation [long back, shallow hip] or if it's the hock issue. She doesn't seem to be in any pain.), and he told me he expects her to start breaking down at around eight or so.

So my questions:

Should I still be riding this horse? I quite literally feel guilty every time I ride her. Very much so. Knowing that you've got a horse with joint issues looming in the future...how often/what intensity do you ride them?

Is there anything I can be doing to help slow down the degeneration? Will hosing off/massaging help any? She's on Cosequin and I plan on doing Adequan when I get a job.

Realistically, what kind of a future can I expect with her? She's got so much potential, it really depresses me to think that it will be cut short in her prime.

I'm sorry to change the subject of the thread, but this has really, really been worrying me lately [especially today after talking to the BO] and I'm looking to find some answers, or at least some closure.

Jul. 20, 2006, 08:04 PM

r.oo, the answers to your questions need to be addressed by your vet :yes: The hind foot dragging could simply be caused by the feet being too long. It might have something to do with sore hocks. It might have something to do with stifle soreness or back soreness or or or. It might be a combination.

Your vet should be advising you on the hock injections, not the BO. Your vet can discuss with you the use of Adequan vs Legend vs oral supplements vs joint injections, the pros and cons of each, using them one at a time or in conjunction with each other. Cosequin is a great start, adding Adequan is a reasonable next step.

If she's not lame, then work is the best thing for her. How much depends on her - you will have to learn to listen to her very carefully.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 08:09 PM

Just a question, since this seemed worded rather harshly, and I mean no ill will.

Why do you generalize barefoot enthusiasts as being deaf, dumb and blind?
I don't. In fact, I enthusiasticly urge my clients to take or leave their horse barefoot whenever possible, practical and pragmatic.

However, the zealots of the "24/7/365 barefoot and nothing else is acceptable" cult are a different matter entirely. And it is towards them that my comments were directed. They know who they are and there are some of them here.
I take great offense to your assumption that those who choose to maintain their horses barefoot are "deaf, dumb, and blind." That is a grossly inaccurate and ignorant statement at best; hateful and vendictive at worst. As a farrier I would certainly hope that you fully understand the benefits of a barefoot lifestyle to the equine.
Take whatever you want. No me importa. See what you are missing here, among other things, is that it is up to the horse and no one else whether s/he is able to "live long and prosper" in the barefoot condition, especially while fulfilling the often ridiculous job demands foisted off on it by some less than even mildly astute horseowner.

And you are absolutely correct when you say that I hate that mentality and will rail against it as often and as loudly as I am able. And that includes the doofi of that lunatic fringe of equidom that continues to chant that mantra.

And, unlike the 24/7/365 barefooter mentality and mindset, I do indeed fully understand the benefits as well as the drawbacks and limitations of a barefoot lifestyle imposedon horses by ignorance, gullibility, lemming mentality and stupidity.
I have never, and will never, attack those who wish to shoe their horses and claim they are "deaf, dumb, and blind" for doing so. They simply choose a different lifestyle for their horse for a plethora of reasons. I believe that no good comes from farriers and barefooters stomping their feet and fighting. I think that knowledge can be gained from each other across both sides of the line. I respect those who wish to shoe their horses, although I may not personally agree with their reasons. I do not seek to belittle them, call them names, or otherwise disrespect them for their choice. Instead I will present information to the best of my ability and allow others to make their own decision. I would ask you to consider the same behavior for yourself.
Well, I sorta read it differently. And, the reason you can't claim that those who for a 'plethora of reasons' choose to shoe their horse(s) are deaf, dumb and blind, is because, demonstrably, they are not.
As stated earlier, My target(s) are the zealot doofi of the 24/7/365 lunatic fringe of equidom. I find most places to be a target rich environment.
But, if you are not one of that ilk, then you have nothing to be upset about or outraged over. Just remember that "if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it smells like a duck, odds are, its a duck" . And when the duck in question happens to be in my target group, then all bets are off.

I did as you suggested and took your advise under consideration. I gave it, briefly, my full attention.

I hope this aussages your fears and that I have made my position neither to difficult nor too simple to understand.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 08:13 PM

Ah yes, the dreaded vet solution :D No, I realize that I really should be talking this over with a vet instead of people on a bulletin board, but I like to have a plethora of information before talking with him so that I myself realize what's out there and we together can come up with something. I haven't made enough of a relationship with this vet yet to trust what he says 100%- though I do realize he's a professional with actual training, and I do not.

"If she's not lame, then work is the best thing for her. How much depends on her - you will have to learn to listen to her very carefully." -JB

What if she tends to be on the hyper side? I don't want to ride her hard now, even if she's not in pain, and have her end up lame earlier than she could have been.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 20, 2006, 08:16 PM

I don't. In fact, I enthusiasticly urge my clients to take or leave their horse barefoot whenever possible, practical and pragmatic.

However, the zealots of the "24/7/365 barefoot and nothing else is acceptable" cult are a different matter entirely. And it is towards them that my comments were directed. They know who they are and there are some of them here.

Take whatever you want. No me importa. See what you are missing here, among other things, is that it is up to the horse and no one else whether s/he is able to "live long and prosper" in the barefoot condition, especially while fulfilling the often ridiculous job demands foisted off on it by some less than even mildly astute horseowner.

And you are absolutely correct when you say that I hate that mentality and will rail against it as often and as loudly as I am able. And that includes the doofi of that lunatic fringe of equidom that continues to chant that mantra.

And, unlike the 24/7/365 barefooter mentality and mindset, I do indeed fully understand the benefits as well as the drawbacks and limitations of a barefoot lifestyle imposed on horses by ignorance, gullibility, lemming mentality and stupidity.

Well, I sorta read it differently. And, the reason you can't claim that those who for a 'plethora of reasons' choose to shoe their horse(s) are deaf, dumb and blind, is because, demonstrably, they are not.
As stated earlier, My target(s) are the zealot doofi of the 24/7/365 lunatic fringe of equidom. I find most places to be a target rich environment.
But, if you are not one of that ilk, then you have nothing to be upset about or outraged over. Just remember that "if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it smells like a duck, odds are, its a duck" . And when the duck in question happens to be in my target group, then all bets are off.

I did as you suggested and took your advise under consideration. I gave it, briefly, my full attention.

I hope this aussages your fears and that I have made my position neither to difficult nor too simple to understand.

Oh! I like that phrase. :D

I'm going to have to use that somewhere...

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 08:17 PM

"It depends" ;)
Seems like there's a new two word catch phrase taking its rightful place in the discussions and advise given about hoofcare. Glad to see it finally happen. With a little care and nuturing, it should root firmly and grow:)

Who is that masked man? :D It Depends!:D

BeastieSlave

Jul. 20, 2006, 08:41 PM

My new favorite word!! The plural of "doofus"- my daughter's Latin teacher will love that one :lol:

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 08:53 PM

My new favorite word!! The plural of "doofus"- my daughter's Latin teacher will love that one :lol:
Perhaps the motto of the 24/7/365 barefoot only nation should be
"E Pluribus doofidus" or the like. Have you daughter run that by her teacher and see what they can come up with. In this instance, accuracy is less importance than the clarity of what is trying to be said....:lol:

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 09:14 PM

There's a little thing called tact that I believe each person should possess at least a shred of ;)
At the end of the day, honesty, brutal or otherwise always trumps tact.
You don't seem to realize that your message is lost through your ranting, name calling, and venting.
Wanna bet?
I'm not looking for someone to stroke my head and call me sweetie pie, but given the amount of hatred in the world already, I do NOT want to sign onto a chat forum and be railroaded from all directions while seeking help for my animal.
In case it somehow escaped your notice, no one is forcing you to either read or participate in anything you choose not to. Unless of course you are living somewhere where there is a gun to your head or your family is being held hostage in the unfortunate event that you should fail to read and respond to whatever is said and by whomever, on the forums you frequent.

Further, since the act of railroading someone requires the application of force, I submit that that is not even possible on an internet forum(unless of course you describe the act of applying the energy required for intellectual engagement of grey matter to be the application of force by some outside entity. In that case, I suppose you could make the case that you have been railroaded. But not duped,and not brainwashed.
And just for the record - NO, I have never been burned on horseshoes.com because I do NOT post there. I only read, and have read for many months now.
Didn't ask if you got burned, I asked why you got your t*t in a wringer over on those forums.

Were I into Zen, I might offer that it is wise that you know yourself and heed your counsel to remain a passive observer. Good for you, bad for the horse.
But hey, its really not about the horse, is it?

Pax.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 20, 2006, 09:33 PM

and doing whats right for your ned
I am making the leap of faith that 'ned' means 'horse'. So, I just gotta ask, if you know, how that term came to be.

Imagine the possibilities:)

"A comely English lass once said
'Its time for new shoes for me ned'

A cobbler was called
but his work was forestalled

T'were for her horse not the man that she wed"

No? How about this one then?

On her way at the end of the day,
She was limping was poor ole' Mae

Its was reportedly said
'Someone ring up dear Fred'

He'll help me poor ned I do pray."

:lol:
I promise, I won't give up my day job
:D

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 12:41 AM

Are you denying that there are many MANY horses in the world who do just fine with a 24/7/365 barefoot lifestyle? Do you believe that every horse (or at least most) should have shoes on at least part of the year, every year? Do you deny that many MANY horses even compete barefoot with great success?
Obviously, reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit during your intellectually formative years.

I'll break my answer down into a monosyllabic word that you should be able to understand. Please let me know if you still don't get it.

The answer to each of the questions asked by you is, NO

But what is relevent here is not whether or not I deny or accept anything, rather, the absolutist(absolutely wrong) position of the "24/7/365 barefoot and nothing else" zealot doofi who infest the lunatic fringe of equidom and infect, with their rabidness, those least able to ward them off. A pox on them.

Put another way, it is not I who take the position that horse keeping involving the barefoot condition is bad or wrong, rather it is the barefoot only doofi who take the position that only barefoot is good and right.

Further, it is my position that there are MANY horses in the world who do indeed suffer because of the whims of some doofus who thinks the 24/7/365 barefoot lifestyle is right for those horses.

And though it is obvious you missed it the first time I wrote it, I repeat for you, that the horse not the owner should be the final arbiter of whether it is barefoot or shod. See, somewhere along the way, the doofi have managed to eliminate the horse from the equation. A point to which they seem oblivious.

By the way, how do you measure success? I measure it quantitatively. So, please tell me, using numeric ratios, the number of successful barefoot horses vs the number of shod horses in any competition venue. Please state the venue/discipline, the event(s) (or the aggregate) and how the barefoot horses fared (i.e.: 1st out of 'X'; 20th out of 'Y' ; completed the _______)

Alternatively, just name for me the barefoot horses who have won a Puissance; raced in any of the Triple Crown or equivalent races(and their finish), Raced in the Hambletonian or the equivalent(and the finish); competed in the Rolex(and their finish), competed in the Tevis Cup(and their finish); Competed in a NARHA event(and their finish); competed as a PRCA barrel horse (and their finish at the Finals); competed at Devon(and their division and finish). Finish again to be represented as the numeric comparison/ratio X place out of Y horses, Z of which were shod.

Phaxxton

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Simple
There's a little thing called tact that I believe each person should possess at least a shred of ;)

At the end of the day, honesty, brutal or otherwise always trumps tact.

One can be both honest and tactful. That trumps condescending tones and bad attitudes any day in my book.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:56 AM

When you can respond to the debate without strong emotion and personal attacks, THEN I will give your posts the attention you desire for them.
ROTFLMAO! Strong emotion? Well, if tears of laughter streaming down my face are indicative of strong emotion, then yes, I'm guilty as charged.
Until then, they will be ignored.
I'm crushed.
I would love to have this conversation with you, but as I have said, there is enough hate in the world without getting it shoved down my throat when I log on here.
Then its true? Love does make the world go 'round? Imagine that! Who knew?
If you would care to start that post over, and retract your hateful and completely unnecessary comments, then I will happily respond to each and every line of your post.
Your emotional well being is not a concern for me so, I'll politefully decline your request.
It is clear that you have a deep interest in discussing the "barefoot only" opinion, and although I have only subscribed to this theory (for my own horses) for the last year or so I would still love to discuss it with you.
My interest is in exposing the zealot doofi of the 24/7/365 barefoot- only cult and the stupidity they preach and the harm they do. Doesn't leave much room for discussion, does it?

And lest yea forget, 'Tis not I who is anti-horse, rather it is those who preach from a pulpit, sermons of doom, dispare and gloom for anyone who dares shoe their horse(s), that is truely anti-horse.

And by the way, though couched in PC rhetoric, those of the cult of barefoot-only doofi, are really preaching a message of hate. So where does that leave you now?
But the minute you throw out personal attacks, I am done.
Pity, there is so much left for you to learn and do.
This is not horseshoes.com. ;) If you want to attack the mental integrity of a fellow poster, then you can do it there.
A wag might offer that the 'fellow poster' does that well enough all by him/her self. Highlighting the obvious, is just intellectual foreplay.
If you want to discuss and debate hoof care, then you can do it here without the attacks.
You might try to remember that the next time you or someone else starts the barefoot-only mantra.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:59 AM

One can be both honest and tactful. That trumps condescending tones and bad attitudes any day in my book.
Must be a little read literary tome. Does it have an ISBN? If so, I'll check it out at 'Borders' or 'Pages for All Ages', and if its worth a read, I'll buy it.

Trakehners2000

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:31 AM

Just off the bat, her feet are too long, heels are underrun and contracted and all feet are in need of balance and symmetry. Even barefoot her feet are way too long- but they look a little healthier. I am sure the gurus will chime in and give you a better synopsis. Personally, I would be looking for a new farrier!

Ditto on her feet are too long, under run heels, and it looks like she is working on some contracted heels there too. bet on one of those fronts you could stick a hoof pick in the rear of the frog and it would disapear a little bit.

I feel your pain, I just went through this with my horse, about 18 months ago. Have since found a good farrier, (great farrier) that has brought my horse back. It took a long time to do, though it is worth it. Having a long toe, low heel on a horse puts a huge amount of stress and strain on the tendons, ligaments and you could end up with an unsound horse at an early age. You did a great job of presenting the pictures, they downloaded easily and were thorough. I learned from my experience, that taking regular photos of our horse's hooves and keeping them dated, etc in a file would be of great benefit to us. Memory can play tricks on us, and I had found myself searching for pictures to prove my horse had not always been carrying a LTLH around, that at one time his feet were as near perfect as you could imagine. Finally I did find one old pic to show current farrier, and he saw what a huge change the previous farrier had done to my horse, making him nearly walking on the bulbs of his heels.... Good luck in your journey, keep those pictures printed and dated in your horse's file so that you can see progress or regress. Get a good book on farrier work to read, so you have an educational foundation, like "Understanding Equine Hoof Care"
by Heather Smith Thomas And, I hope you don't have to deal with it, though my horse had hoof abscesses galore when his feet were changing...though today his feet are nearly perfect. It is tough to get those heels growing the correct way again, once the get underslung like that....
Best wishes to you....

My horse's hoof has also expanded way over and inch in width.

Sandbarhorse

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:58 AM

Trakehners2000

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:15 AM

Sandbarhorse

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:37 AM

And most of those other websites you referenced are nothing more than barefoot only propoganda sites. So long as you want to only keep your horse barefoot, and remain deaf, dumb and blind to reality, you should indeed habituate those sites.

TS- Think whatever you want and be the defender of those who haven't asked for defending if that makes you happy, but I don't see a personal insult above. The way I read it is, if you wish to remain deaf, dumb and blind to the reality that BF doesn't work for every horse, stick with only those sites that support your belief system.

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:38 AM

Trakehners2000

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:41 AM

Yes I love training for the distance rides. Life has dictated that it take a back seat for now, though it is still something I train for and aspire to. God willing, we will get there, just must keep at it.
Luckily dressage has great benefit to distance horses, so even when all we can do is train dressage, I know that it is benefiting him, and will only help him in endurance when we get back at it, and starte clocking the miles again. Part of the reason for not hitting the endurance trail this season, and last was to let his joints/ tendons/ligaments readjust to the new hooves he has, and to recover from the strain that LTLH had put on him.

I understand that some folks have been successful doing distance with out shoes, though I just can't see that it is good for them. I'm sure I could run five miles without shoes, though I'd rather not. Other groups of horses that I couldn't see going with out shoes is reiners/jumpers/driving horses.

Plus, I wanted to add that in the previous posts, people where attacking OP's age....I had to comment on it, I think that is rediculous. Many youth her age are wise beyond their years, and even the Good Book says that "let no one despise your youth"... I have a 17 year old that I give lessons to, and she does her research, like OP, and continues her education with horses, and runs a barn....and she really does know more than the BO. Even though he has been at it for fourty years, he must have stopped learning two years into it. By no means does being a BO for 30 or 40 years make you an expert. The pursuit of knowledge & wisdom is an on going thing. As one of my old mentor told me, you never stop learning until all of your fingers grow the same length...don't ask me where he got that one, but he was/ is a wise old man.

ie, the thing that was said about befriending your farrier, like it fixes everything just ain't so....One of the toughest things about how the one farrier ruinned my horse, was that we LIKED HIM!!!!!!! A ton, and tried to work with him on it........he is a great guy...... that didn't fix my horse's problem.....

Also, the shoe on OP's horse, looked too small......

And, even though it is a mute point now, I will always make it a point to be courageous enough to ask a farrier what their schooling is, and if they have apprenticed under someone, and who that someone was.

My current farrier went to OK school for 12 weeks, and apprenticed under a specialist for some months, then apprenticed under another experienced farrier for a year, so his total apprentice was about 18 months... And he is currently setting up times to go work with/watch work the farrier that works at the University in Madison. I admire his determination to be the best, and his work ethic, and even with all his knowledge/credentials, he is still willing to listen to any of my concerns and answer my questions. He also has something rare in the horse world....you will never hear him say a cross word about anybody...if he can't say something good, he will say nothing at all. He is a great businessman, farrier & now friend. We are blessed and thankful to have him, and so are our horses.

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:47 AM

']Ah yes, the dreaded vet solution :D No, I realize that I really should be talking this over with a vet instead of people on a bulletin board, but I like to have a plethora of information before talking with him so that I myself realize what's out there and we together can come up with something. I haven't made enough of a relationship with this vet yet to trust what he says 100%- though I do realize he's a professional with actual training, and I do not.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you shouldn't look for information here :) I just meant that given the horse's history, and the fact that your vet has seen the xrays, the vet has seen this and that and the other, and we haven't, it would be very unfair for any of us to give recommendations and guesses on riding and future soundness, long or short term. They would be purely guesses.

"If she's not lame, then work is the best thing for her. How much depends on her - you will have to learn to listen to her very carefully." -JB

What if she tends to be on the hyper side? I don't want to ride her hard now, even if she's not in pain, and have her end up lame earlier than she could have been.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do.

I know what you mean, I've been there. Define "hyper"? What is her diet and turnout like? There are some studies that suggest that feeding oil aggravates arthrtis, so if she's getting oil, drop that and replace it with BOSS and/or rice bran for calories and fat. In fact, adding BOSS, rice bran, and flax can be beneficial to arthritis, due to the omega 3/6 in the combination of those. If she's not on 24/7 turnout, or close to it, doing what you can to maximize turnout will help immensely. Keeping her body weight on the light side is very important. You won't know how hard you can ride her until you try it, but getting and keeping her in condition is very important as well. The more conditioned her muscles are, the more stress they can take off the joints, and not put ON the joints to begin with. Correct riding is essential - no high head, hollow back, trailing hocks. Long warmups are essential. If you really want to do all you can, then you ice the hocks after every ride to minimize damage from inflammation caused by the work. You also heat them up before riding to get blood flowing. There are lots of preventive measure you can take to help minimize damage inevitably caused by riding.

nohafoot

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:29 AM

LILBLACKHORSE

I apologize for not using the quote button to your satisfaction i think you misunderstood. Im a farrier the other person stated that he/she was not.

Also I apologize that you find my grammer horrendous,frightening, or sufficiently unpleasant.

i attended a clinic a few years back and it had clinician who spoke about the bussiness end of farrier work and craftsmanship he stated that the sad part of this trade sometimes was the if a guy could talk a great game it did not matter if he/she nails a frisbee to the foot they will love you...I worked with a saddle bred shoer for while we traveled six states and he had to be the most rude person i ever seen in a barn-wont work on a dirty horse, dont bring the horse in damp, i would not really say rude just kept it real. I ask him has he ever been fired for some things he said? He stated thats why he only deals with the BO because they make it thier life not thier hobby and he leaves the kiss assing to them so they can keep boarders happy thats not his job to stroke egos its to stroke the horses ego by sending it around the ring with that ribbon hanging off its head stall. my point is you might not like what everyone has to say or how they say but it might open the eyes a little wider dont count they guy that does not speak up to you standards...or as ive heard on this board the word white trash used once...it might be that guy whos help you need to get the horse sound..thats why we work with horses not people as farriers i still stand firm that i owe a horse owner nothing but the horse everything but i dont just walk in and start to shoe a horse i must it ride move and know what it is it will be used for and how much it will be used beware of the one who walks in and just starts shoeing without seeing the whole picture..

barney4liz

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:35 AM

Obviously, reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit during your intellectually formative years.

I'll break my answer down into a monosyllabic word that you should be able to understand. Please let me know if you still don't get it.

Are people still listening to this blather? What a waste of bandwidth. I hope PB and nohafoot will play nicely together on my "ignore" list. :lol:

Trakehners2000

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:40 AM

Not all horses can wear boots, as the material gives them an allergic reaction.
Metal horse shoes have evolved since their inception. While they (science/farriers/etc) may come up with better options.... I think what is best right now is understanding how to put the best trim / angles on the horse that is best for him, and to shoe it properly, & allowing for heel expansion. LTLH seems to be the most common mistake in farrier business, besides putting on shoes that are too small....

Question for all the experts out there....How does a farrier, such as the OP's get a horse's foot looking like this????????? I have seen many times, everyone say how to fix it..........How did her old farrier get that horse in that condition in the first place?????:confused:

grace_herself

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:42 AM

never let anyone make you feel like you arn't entitled to a second opinion if your not sure the one you have already gotten is correct. most people would feel comfortable getting a second opinion on veternarian care for something serious, so why not one of your horses feet? i see no harm at all in getting another ferrier (sp?) to come out, look at your horses feet, and tell you what they think is right or wrong about the present trimming and shoeing job.

and for whoever said that we owners are not the clients, we are basically just the wallets that pay, and therefore do not have the right to say what we want done to our horses feet, i disagree. YES, whether it is a barefoot trim, or a shoeing, the job has to be tailored to our horses, and the ferrier (and the vet at times) is the person who should suggest what should be done for our horses feet, WE, the OWNERS, have the final say. if a ferrier doesn't feel comfortable doing what we ask, fine, tell us to find a new ferrier, but please, don't tell me i only pay and don't get the final say as to what work is done.

Also, as a Boarder, i am entitled to have ANY ferrier i want come out and do my horses feet. if i wern't i would seriously question why, after all, it is not included in the boarding fee, and anything that isn't should be the way i want it and NOT the way the BO tells me it should be.
And yes, i do board my horse, and i'm sure my BO would tell you i am a fantastic boarder who never causes problems or asks for too much, and who helps out any time it's needed.

JMHO

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:55 AM

Question for all the experts out there....How does a farrier, such as the OP's get a horse's foot looking like this????????? I have seen many times, everyone say how to fix it..........How did her old farrier get that horse in that condition in the first place?????:confused:

I'm not an expert ;) But, it's really very "simple" in preventing this - actively trim the foot each visit. LOOK at where the heels are in relation to the wide part of the frog. LOOK at how much foot is in front of the apex of the frog vs behind it. LOOK at where the widest part of the foot is and how much foot is in front of and behind it. If that's all you do, even if you sacrifice m/l balance (never a good idea, but just play along ;)) then you will actively see each and every time how far down you need to trim the heels (living by the rules of the sole) and how far back you need to take the toes.

Some farriers/trimmers just nip off 1/4" of foot all around, each time, period, even if 3/8" needed to be taken off. Over time, that just creeps the foot taller and more forward, but since they are never actively looking at the foot, they never see it. Or don't care.

nohafoot

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:56 AM

[QUOTE=grace_herself] if a ferrier doesn't feel comfortable doing what we ask, fine, tell us to find a new ferrier, but please, don't tell me i only pay and don't get the final say as to what work is done.

could you please tell us what training you have had as a farrier....not as a check writer....i hope the farrier you choose feels good about shoeing for the money not the horse i find alot of those farriers in a barn that the other farrier has droped as a boarder that was to hard to deal with they are most of the time young ans will shoe rodeo stock for a dollar..

ChocoMare

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:57 AM

Some farriers/trimmers just nip off 1/4" of foot all around, each time, period, even if 3/8" needed to be taken off. Over time, that just creeps the foot taller and more forward, but since they are never actively looking at the foot, they never see it. Or don't care.

Or are in a hurry ;)

Jul. 21, 2006, 11:00 AM

I never said that he stated it anywhere! I only asked him the question. ;) Please notice then I did not say "Why did you say...." But rather I wanted to know if that was his position or not.

Then, given that this seems to be a trend with you ;) might I suggest next time that you don't use MANY in the context that you did, and that you actively indicate that you are honestly asking. The tone of your post indicated to me (and others) that you were insinuating PB thought those things. To throw out a series of questions in the manner in which you did seems to indicate an accusatory tone. Since we all know how hard it is to read intent and emotion on forums, it often pays to explicitly state "I'm honestly looking for answers, as I would like to know". That's all ;)

Jul. 21, 2006, 11:01 AM

Or are in a hurry ;)
ie, not actively looking at the foot ;)

Trakehners2000

Jul. 21, 2006, 11:01 AM

:yes: Grace, I wondered the same thing about the BO keeping one farrier there, also. I have to wonder if the BO gets a better deal on their horses if the 'give' the whole barn to one farrier? Another thing could be, that they don't want the added commotion cause by seven farriers coming in and out?
When you are talking about a facility that houses 15 to 50 head of horses, having several farriers could get to be busy....and a headache for the BO.

About the second opinion thing....wow....I actually hauled my horse to a "master" farrier from England....for that second opinion on my horse when our horse had the OP's problems++, and the "Master English Farrier" said it looked great....nothing wrong there.....:eek:

After a sense of nagging in my consceince (sp?), I did more internet research, not knowing what LTLH was, just typing in the sympotoms my horse had, tripping, under slung heel, low heel, abscessing, narrowing of hoof.. and saw the research on LTLH and felt like I was looking at a picture of my horse's hoof! Just then my dear friend, a vet student, came on line and IM'd me....I brought her up to date on my findings, and low and behold..her boyfriend......was a farrier....who is now my farrier....I thank God that we met up with him, every time I look at my horse's hooves. ANywho...It was the third opinon..... Really makes me wonder if the "Master" English farrier really had the credentials he claimed, like studying in England for 3 years before becoming a farrier........and then how would he not know what LTLH looked like??????Yikes.:eek:

About us horse owners being a pocket book......yeah, I think the farrier/owner relationship in some cases is strained if that is the case. Either the owner is not giving the farrier enough respect, or vice versa. If you know your stuff, you shouldn't be threatened by questions....if you are more annoyed that they (owner) is chatting while you are working, polietly tell them you like to work now, and could answer a any questions when you are done. Being a professional, you never stop learning. If there is a new trend that you don't agree with, do some research and tell your client why. IT may be that they don't believe this new trend either, they are just looking for your opinion....

Trakehners2000

Jul. 21, 2006, 11:18 AM

could you please tell us what training you have had as a farrier....not as a check writer....i hope the farrier you choose feels good about shoeing for the money not the horse i find alot of those farriers in a barn that the other farrier has droped as a boarder that was to hard to deal with they are most of the time young ans will shoe rodeo stock for a dollar..

Noha foot, Endulge me a minute. It is okay to not be an expert and have an opinion. I don't have to be a master carpenter to see that something is wrong with my table, do you see what I mean? Just because I can see something is wrong, doesn't mean that I *know* how to fix it, or even for that matter, why it is not working properly. I could, as can the OP, tell that something just ain't right, with our horse.

You can apply that annology to a car. I am not a car mechanic, but I certainly could tell if I bought a new car and something was wrong with it. I would know it needs fixed, I'd get second, and third opinons (at times).

I give lessons and do training....have a stallion standing at stud, I just couldn't see myself looking at those clients as a check writter, only. It would be very easy to get sarcastic and hard in the horse business. There are many 'carrot' ladies, KMart cowboys and 'church' hoppers (oh, that would be barn/trainer/farrier/vet hoppers....). Not to be preachy, though there is a reason that the Good Book says to "Guard your heart above all else", and I think that it is because we are our heart, we have to live with ourselves, and for most of us, other have to live with us too. Try not to let your heart get rough and burned by others in the horse world. Looking at anyone as mearly a checkbook is pretty harsh, don't you think?

grace_herself

Jul. 21, 2006, 11:23 AM

[quote=grace_herself] if a ferrier doesn't feel comfortable doing what we ask, fine, tell us to find a new ferrier, but please, don't tell me i only pay and don't get the final say as to what work is done.

could you please tell us what training you have had as a farrier....not as a check writer....i hope the farrier you choose feels good about shoeing for the money not the horse i find alot of those farriers in a barn that the other farrier has droped as a boarder that was to hard to deal with they are most of the time young ans will shoe rodeo stock for a dollar..

i am NOT a farrier, however, i am an inteligent experienced horse woman, who can make an educated decision as to what i feel comfortable having done to/with my horses feet, regarding shoeing.

in a perfect world, not only would the farrier listen to my opinion with respect, he would show up on time, the day he says he's coming.
thank fully, my farrier has always done all three :)

my new farrier (my old one just got deployed to afghanistan) not only listened to what i had to say, but also called my vet and talked to her before shoeing my horse.

nohafoot

Jul. 21, 2006, 11:54 AM

as all good farriers should do talk to the one who rides the horse trains the horse and vets the horse be on time as any good bussiness person should...i think you miss my point....pull into the car shop tell the man somethings not right you need a new motor...he says the fan belts broke (you) i wont a new motor im paying the bills well ok a new motor it is now your happy because you felt you got the ego stroke you needed your happy hes happy..get the point make your farrier watch the horse move with your tranier let your trainer tell the farrier what yall are looking for ...its a team thing right down to the person picking up the horse crap he should get just as much respect as big daddy bucks....anything less than that you dont need a horse..

poopoo

Jul. 21, 2006, 12:10 PM

I also think that's too much to take off the foot. Although this hoof is all wrong, you don't want nubs either. I think you may be looking at a bigger shoe, pulling it further back, and rolling the toes back. Then, go from there.

ariaridge

Jul. 21, 2006, 12:26 PM

Roo, you're being pro-active about your horses care, and that's a good thing!

IMHO, I would get references for another farrier and call them out to the barn. Let THEM tell you what they think is wrong with your horses hooves, and how they will go about correcting it. I agree with many of the other posters, that the problem(s) will not be corrected overnight, but with time.

I know a horse who didn't get trimmed for a long time and had long hooves as well. When the farrier trimmed him, the horse went lame, because he had trouble with his tendons. This passed in about 2-3 weeks. I think if the farrier hadn't taken so much off the first time, the tendons wouldn't have been as sore. Something to look into!

Also, getting another opinion when it somes to hooves is a good thing. I had a farrier, who I thought was great, but I felt like he was missing something with my guys. I had another farrier come over, and he immediately noticed that my Warmblood yearling was toeing out in the back (ever so slightly; know one ever noticed it, but he picked it up right away) so now we're in the process of trying to correct it. It would have been so much easier if we had caught it sooner. Listen to your gut! Best of luck! :)

Aptor Hours

Jul. 21, 2006, 01:05 PM

It is clear this horse needs to be barefoot it is the cure to all ills. Just an FYI shoes with wedge pads and long = death!!! LOL!!!!

AnotherRound

Jul. 21, 2006, 01:52 PM

I hope this aussages your fears and that I have made my position neither to difficult nor too simple to understand.

So nice. Hee Hee.

Lookout

Jul. 21, 2006, 02:01 PM

AnotherRound

Jul. 21, 2006, 02:18 PM

Nohasocialskills, I wouldn't care if you wielded a golden hammer gifted by the Horseshoer's guild of Earth, If you attempted to respond to me on my property with the condescension and shaming you've exhibited on this thread, you'd be escorted off my property instantly, and you would have to wait at the end of the driveway for AAA to come and bring you your truck.

Who shamed you that this is how you interact with others?

Lookout

Jul. 21, 2006, 02:23 PM

It is clear this horse needs to be barefoot it is the cure to all ills. Just an FYI shoes with wedge pads and long = death!!! LOL!!!!

OMG :eek: :eek: :eek: ! You may actually be right about something!

Jul. 21, 2006, 02:24 PM

make your farrier watch the horse move with your tranier let your trainer tell the farrier what yall are looking for ...its a team thing right down to the person picking up the horse crap he should get just as much respect as big daddy bucks....anything less than that you dont need a horse..

You're right, it IS a team thing. But the facts are that most trainers AND most vets don't know much more about proper hoof form than most owners. What then? What if you don't have a trainer?

It SHOULD be a two-way discussion between the farrier/trimmer and the rider of the horse. Sadly, it's often not, as can be seen by the huge number of threads on this board over the years of folks who can not get their farriers to talk to them.If they won't talk, there is no discussion. If there is no discussion, owners, like myself, have not choice but to fire that farrier and find someone who can and will discuss things and is open to making changes for the benefit of the horse.

nohafoot

Jul. 21, 2006, 03:10 PM

im sorry i meant the owner own the horse if thier is no trainer than that would make you the trainer....trust me if i was your farrier you would love me it is a two way street thing ,,,seem blunt on here but my face to face skills are alot better than my typing......also i was hooked up at a barn today while shoeing let them read this stuff they loved it i could not get them off my lap-top they said they did know this site was around i think they liked seeing people get a rise out of each other..

AnotherRound

Jul. 21, 2006, 03:37 PM

I wonder if farriers are consulting online sources and resources during their work, like so many of us are today. If the barns had an internet connection, why not? However, why she was on this website, mucking around garnering mental support for her attitudes, is more a reflection of her mindset than work ethics. We have only her word to assure us she is nicer in person than is her online persona. We have only her online persona to clue us in to her personality. Personally, just because she was smiling and laughing at us with barn friends doesn't do alot to reassure me that she doesn't use shaming tactics to be a bully and make herself feel better. Oh, wait. Telling us she was laughing at us at the barn with friends, that's shaming, istn't it. Ok. Never mind. Right on track, that one.
Yech.

nohafoot

Jul. 21, 2006, 03:39 PM

in the barn i dont shoe under a shad tree....lap tops are a great way to pull up pics and such while i talk with the client mabey if farriers where not in such a dam hurry you would not be own here about your horses feet....or mabey pay your farrier a good wage he wont feel like hes got to shoe 8 horses a day to feed the family and he might have this cool thing called a lap top they google and laugh and i shoe we have a big time ans sometimes if its a all day stop we fire up the old BBQ grill....not laughing ay anyone they really loved the site

Aptor Hours

Jul. 21, 2006, 03:55 PM

OMG :eek: :eek: :eek: ! You may actually be right about something!

LOL! Thanks babe!

BoldChance

Jul. 21, 2006, 04:37 PM

']There IS one slight hitch...I looked at the two horses this new farrier has done and although they DO look better, the heels still look a bit underrun. I just might be able to bring in my own farrier though. *crosses fingers*

Were these horses that the previous farrier had done for a time, though?

Because I don't think under run and/or contracted heels are something that is fixed in one trimming.

The new farrier came out Wed and did my guy... He began what will be a series of corrections for steep angles, under run & contracted heels, and whatnot... The horse is going to remain barefoot and be trimmed every 3 weeks. I am hoping this guy works out.

But believe me, his foot still looks awful. IT just looks less awful than it did before.

Lookout

Jul. 21, 2006, 05:44 PM

Is it common for a farrier to carry his/her laptop around to client's barns
How did you get an internet connection?
Uh, Wireless?
Hasn't your vet ever done this?

Lookout

Jul. 21, 2006, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by nohafoot
trust me if i was your farrier you would love me it is a two way street thing

So, that's your advice to an owner for finding a capable farrier? Listening to someone who says "trust me"?

Lookout

Jul. 21, 2006, 05:49 PM

Nope. Never seen a vet or a farrier carry a laptop.

Have you ever heard of wireless?

goeslikestink

Jul. 21, 2006, 06:36 PM

you know i wouldnt jump -- alap top cna be used to the owners of the innocents meaning the novice -- or the not so novice-- if the horse had to have redemial treatment and owner is a little less on the up take of all the tecnicallities meaning they only understand laymens terms as in most-- and if that horse had t have treatment via vet and farrier and owner wasnt quite sure then a lap top comes in handy as it can ssho before and after and what the expected treatment could do it can enchance and be understood in the owners eys of whats going on with hoof the foot and leg -- it can be abd e shown as each ste can be seen - as reference to waht that foot was beofre and each session how it has changed or not or if its not working then sowmthing else can be done -- hock it up with xray the results are instant
and can be sorted and treated or if xrays have to been seen each week then having a lap top can see whats going inside the side that one cannot see

so dont mock ---- if it was your horse would you be laughing or mocking
if this person came to you and ahd the tecnology to enchance his/her work to make better use of there knowledge -- and quick with vets to adhere to a treatment that would be succesful ---- i think not --

me i thinks a great idea to have a lap top the possiablities are huge --

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 06:41 PM

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 06:54 PM

so why not one of your horses feet? i see no harm at all in getting another ferrier (sp?) to come out, look at your horses feet, and tell you what they think is right or wrong about the present trimming and shoeing job.
You'd be treading on thin ice here. Most farriers, other than in a veterinary practice, will not opine on another man's/woman's work. Especially if more than a day or two has elapsed since the work was done.

and for whoever said that we owners are not the clients, we are basically just the wallets that pay, and therefore do not have the right to say what we want done to our horses feet, i disagree. YES, whether it is a barefoot trim, or a shoeing, the job has to be tailored to our horses, and the ferrier (and the vet at times) is the person who should suggest what should be done for our horses feet, WE, the OWNERS, have the final say.
No ma'am. The horse is the ultimate arbiter but beyond that, the farrier will have the final say. S/he'll either say OK, or Bye-bye.
Please don't disillusion your self into believing otherwise.
if a ferrier doesn't feel comfortable doing what we ask, fine, tell us to find a new ferrier, but please, don't tell me i only pay and don't get the final say as to what work is done.
Whether you want to accept it or not, you are the customer, not the client. The horse is the client. As the customer, you do get to pay. If we like you, you'll even get to have some input concerning what you are doing with the horse, what you expect of the horse, any problems or concerns you have about the horse. From that point on, all the decisions are in the hands(and mind) of the farrier. As I said, push the point to hard or far, and the farrier will walk. Again, the decision is always his/her's. S/he is the one putting it all on the line, s/he gets to be the 'Captain of the ship". it cannot be otherwise. And remember, we don't work for you, we provide services to you for your horse. For those services, you get to write the check.
Also, as a Boarder, i am entitled to have ANY ferrier i want come out and do my horses feet.
In principle, I agree. however, In a training situation, the equation changes. Also, if its in the boarding contract and you sign the contract, then you're bound by the contract. Most BOs won't get into an argument with you over this if its not in writing. they'll just tell you to be out of the barn at the end of the month. That way, no one can say you haven't been given a choice.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 06:58 PM

my new farrier (my old one just got deployed to afghanistan) not only listened to what i had to say, but also called my vet and talked to her before shoeing my horse.
The point being that he acted in a professional manner and then made his decision. You didn't make it for him. But you did write him a check, right?

StefffiC

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:07 PM

On the laptop... I've had both farriers and vets that carried laptops with them. First one was 4 and a half years ago and he was a wonderful farrier.

I have a GREAT farrier now who just spent 3 hours with my laminitic pony making her comfortable on very short notice, but he isn't all that technologically advanced and doesn't have a lap top. His shoeing is cutting edge for founder/laminitis and he does alot of coninuing ed. I can't imagine finding a better farrier.

Steph

goeslikestink

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:11 PM

thats true about a barn -- the stbales up th road from me do that they have a farrier been there for years if you dont like him you out on your ear--

and it is the horse that decides -- the horses feet decides what has ro be done with them -- i can surgest - i can give an opnion of what my thoughts are i can ask advise froma a farier or vet -- but icant do -- i can writw a cheque and i can pay the money --

its same to if horse was ill --i cant do not always not if needing vet attention i can think what its i might know waht is i can help once given treatment--
and i apy for that by cheque or cash-- but icant do the actual thing a vet does or farrier -- icant do becuase iam not the horse/pony in question

iam the owner that i can do

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:16 PM

The days of the farrier being a mysterious all knowing man behind the curtain are long gone thanks to the work of mostly one barefoot practitioner educating horse owners about what a healthy horse's foot looks like. No wonder farriers hate her.
ROTFLMAO!!!
Thanks for that bit of fluff. The infamous and notorious Frau Dr. Strasser has done more to make a laughing stock of the 24/7/365 group of barefoot doofi who prattle and peddle her nonsense than any other person on the face of the earth. When she first came on the scene, some were bedazzled and befuddled by her seeming innocence. As time went by, the more astute began to realize that her preaching was founded in Junk Science and rooted in harming the horse. Many a farrier owes thanks to F. Strasser for increasing their client base and adding mightly to their bottom line. After all, fixing those Strasser-induced mistakes gets to be a really expensive prospect.

By the way, you make the mistake common to those of your mind set. You think farriers hate F. Dr. Strasser. We don't. Not in the least. What we do hate is the wrong, harmful, dangerous, life threatening, invasive and stupid hoof trimming/care protocol she employes. You perhaps can grasp the difference?

To paraphrase, from "Jesus Christ, Superstar", 'Kind Herod's song': "She's a joke, she's not the Lord, she's nothing but a fraud....."

And if you think F. Dr. Strasser has educated owners, then you haven't been paying attention to the likes of Ovnicek, Pollitt, Bowker, Kane, Turner, Page, Myers, Butler, Chapman et. al.

Have you ever read any of Strasser's research? If you have, you're a better person than most. Why? Because it doesn't exist. And spare me the nonsense--the plural of anecdote is not, data. Nor are testimonials.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:27 PM

Is it common for a farrier to carry his/her laptop around to client's barns and have them read internet chat forums?? Just curious. My farrier is so busy he barely has time to get a drink of water before getting to the next client!
All that tells me is that he's not charging enough. Or his avarice is greater than his true common sense. Ask yourself this, how many horses is your farrier trimming and/or shoeing in a day? If s/he's shoeing 8-10+ a day or trimming 20+ /day, or some combination thereof, and doing that every day, then how would you like your horses to be numbers 8 or above? Guaranteed that the quality of work on the last several shoeings is not going to be the same as on the first ones. Or if it is, then all the work is probably mediocre or less. How do I know this? Been there, done that. Long ago, and in a different reality than now.

And if your farrier barely has time to get a drink of water between clients/client stops, how the hell is s/he going to be able to stop and take the time to talk with you? Hmmm, me thinks you have created a conundrum for yourself.

Txfarrier11

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:33 PM

This seems like as good a time as any to break into song.

Die Markierungsfahne ist die Strasser Truppen zusammenbauen hoch.
Blind vorwärts marschieren.
Die Markierungsfahne ist hoch!
( to the tune of Der Horst Wessel Lied)

And what about that suspicious gap in her resume between '39 and '45?

grace_herself

Jul. 21, 2006, 07:50 PM

Whether you want to accept it or not, you are the customer, not the client. The horse is the client. As the customer, you do get to pay. If we like you, you'll even get to have some input concerning what you are doing with the horse, what you expect of the horse, any problems or concerns you have about the horse. From that point on, all the decisions are in the hands(and mind) of the farrier.

I thought it was only doctors that got God complexes, apparently I was wrong. seeing as how i have an azz*l* complex at times, if you treated me in person with the same condecending demeaning attitude that you are treating me online, i'd send you out the barn door (if you could fit your big head through it) faster than a new york minute.

i have yet to meet a farrier who TOLD me what was going to be done with my horses feet, only farriers that offered options, and reasons for the different options, than let me decide, because hey, IT'S MY HORSE !!

barney4liz

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:02 PM

goeslikestink

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:06 PM

ohh this is too funny ---

Trakehners2000

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:22 PM

I have a hard time picturing my farrier acting like is being suggested, like I have no opinion....

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:29 PM

grace, it appears that PB is a proud graduate of the Pompous Azz School of Farriery. A B.S. degree. :lol: :lol:
At least I haven't been, like some here, accorded the honor of being added to the list of those who are test subjects and role models at the Phineas T. Barnum "Hook 'em 'n Snooker 'em" natural glib talk and obfusication clinics.

If you'll just tell me where to send them, I'll get the Doofi Nation membership cards in the mail to you post haste. Along with them, I'll include some self-help tapes. Listen to them as you fall asleep. You'll awaken as a better person.:)

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:40 PM

I thought it was only doctors that got God complexes, apparently I was wrong. seeing as how i have an azz*l* complex at times, if you treated me in person with the same condecending demeaning attitude that you are treating me online, i'd send you out the barn door (if you could fit your big head through it) faster than a new york minute.
:D Why pray tell would you think, even for a New York minute, that I or any other farrier would even want to provide our services to you? Before you'd even get a spot in my appointment book, you, like anyone else, would have to undergo an evaluation/interview. Wanna bet what the outcome of that would most likely be?

i have yet to meet a farrier who TOLD me what was going to be done with my horses feet, only farriers that offered options, and reasons for the different options, than let me decide, because hey, IT'S MY HORSE !!
How eloquently you make my point. The farrier offered you options. his options. You choose one of them. He gets what he wants(he made the decision as to what and how to work on the horse) and let you choose. The irony of this is just too perfect. You think you're in charge so you happily pay the farrier and sing his praises to the high heavens to boot. Old Phinneas would be right proud of your farrier.:lol:

Reminds me of a line from a song "There are none so blind as those who will not see.........":lol:

Huntertwo

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:42 PM

DONT MEAN TO BE A AZZ

Ah, but you come across as one, very nicely I might add. :lol: :lol:

BeastieSlave

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:48 PM

Man, this thread is sooo entertaining :D
Too bad it's hidden over here on Horse Care (or maybe that's a good thing) :lol:

Posting Trot

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:50 PM

To the OP:

Good for you for taking your horse's care seriously. Don't feel guilty about riding your horse, as long as she's feeling good. If she's dragging her feet behind it could be a result of the horrendous trim. Is she backsore at all?

Before you make any decisions about joint injections vs. other types of treatments, the vet really does need to go over her, probably take some x-rays, etc. You might also ask the vet for his/her opinion on the hooves. That should be entertaining.

Also, if you think the BO's new farrier might be decent, don't judge too much by what the BO's horses look like after only one trim. I think most farriers don't like to get too radical with changing hoof angles etc. because of the possibility of laming the horse at least temporarily. So the more significant test will be to see if the hooves improve after two or three cycles.

You might go to www.hopeforsoundness.com and look at the hoof tutorial there. (It's the Natural Balance website). The pix and explanations will give you a good sense of what a balanced trim and shoeing job should look like.

If you know that the horse has previously been happy, healthy, etc. barefoot, then it's at least worth a try.

Good luck, and keep your sense of humor. It's priceless when dealing with horses.

Huntertwo

Jul. 21, 2006, 08:59 PM

Huntertwo

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:01 PM

ROTFLMAO!!!
Thanks for that bit of fluff. The infamous and notorious Frau Dr. Strasser has done more to make a laughing stock of the 24/7/365 group of barefoot doofi who prattle and peddle her nonsense than any other person on the face of the earth. When she first came on the scene, some were bedazzled and befuddled by her seeming innocence. As time went by, the more astute began to realize that her preaching was founded in Junk Science and rooted in harming the horse. Many a farrier owes thanks to F. Strasser for increasing their client base and adding mightly to their bottom line. After all, fixing those Strasser-induced mistakes gets to be a really expensive prospect.

By the way, you make the mistake common to those of your mind set. You think farriers hate F. Dr. Strasser. We don't. Not in the least. What we do hate is the wrong, harmful, dangerous, life threatening, invasive and stupid hoof trimming/care protocol she employes. You perhaps can grasp the difference?

To paraphrase, from "Jesus Christ, Superstar", 'Kind Herod's song': "She's a joke, she's not the Lord, she's nothing but a fraud....."

And if you think F. Dr. Strasser has educated owners, then you haven't been paying attention to the likes of Ovnicek, Pollitt, Bowker, Kane, Turner, Page, Myers, Butler, Chapman et. al.

Have you ever read any of Strasser's research? If you have, you're a better person than most. Why? Because it doesn't exist. And spare me the nonsense--the plural of anecdote is not, data. Nor are testimonials.

Ummm, unless I'm blind, I don't think she mentioned the Strasser trim.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:08 PM

Ummm, unless I'm blind, I don't think she mentioned the Strasser trim.
She didn't have to. Unless you've been living in a cave the last several years, you would know the good doctor by her (rather thin) resume', so aptly described by Lookout.

Nope, there is only one person who fits that description. F. Dr. Strasser.

But, you might cry, how do you know Lookout was talking about a woman? Well, I replies, Lookout did use the feminine gender form "her" in describing this individual. Which immediately eliminates the other side of the equation. And considering the relative paucity of female barefoot-only 'headliners" and the descriptive terms Lookout used, We of CSI: COTHF have been able to deduce who the culprit is.

FortheFunofitFarm

Jul. 21, 2006, 09:08 PM

Huntertwo - there is no other "her" than Strasser that I am aware of ;)

Tree

Jul. 21, 2006, 10:14 PM

Well, I feel rather fortunate that I didn't get in here yesterday but would like to comment on the OP pics.

As others, on the first page have said, there is too much hoof and it seems that the fronts have the most excessive amounts than do the hinds which must be getting some natural wear or if the fronts are any example, with shoes those hinds would be in the same boat.

I also see some medial/lateral imbalances according to some uneven heels and asymmetrical bulb shapes in addition to the tell-tale side wall profile line differences.

The earlier pics (xmas), showed excessive length in that front foot too.

As a trimmer, I like to find excesses like this because there is plenty of hoof to work with and clean up. I don't like to find butt cracks extending into the haired skin above the frog sulci though because it means long-termed contraction and seeing the heels of those shoes being so tight just underlines the heel contraction issues. The rest of the hoof shape looked good until my eyes ventured past their widest point. The heels of the shoes are also covering the commissures (collateral grooves) so that would trap crap in the foot. You'd have fun picking it out but they'd soon fill again with crap.

The full body view doesn't reveal much about her body like a profile shot from either side would but I can see a noticeable dip where her neck ties in to the wither and that usually means a steeply angled shoulder. It's not that she lacks muscle development there but rather how those muscles are currently being used. I would take your word for the rest of her conformation since I can't view it. Is she rather animated in how she moves? With feet this long I would expect more than the natural amount of knee action much like a child wearing swim fins out of the water and walking. While she does toe out, and the worn areas of the shoes confirm it, she also high to the outside as indicated by those hairlines dropping to the medial side vs being horizontal. The hinds are so imbalanced that the outside walls dish with the inside walls appearing closer to vertical. Viewing them dead on center would reveal how curved the feet are becoming...curving towards the outside.

If you can't choose your own farrier at this barn, choose another barn and another farrier. Hopefully you'll find someone who recognizes imbalance AND knows how to trim to correct them. If they do a bang up job with shoes, great. It's the trim that really counts.

Tree

Lookout

Jul. 21, 2006, 11:18 PM

Actually Marjorie Smith has done a damned good job of educating the public on hoof care and form. And I do believe Robyn LaPierre educates as well. Linda Cowles comes to mind, as does Darolyn Butler. ;) All these ladies are, and have been, extremely active in the horse community educating the public. Lisa Huhn gives clinics and seminars on barefoot health, foot care, and form. Strasser is certainly NOT the only female in the world teach horse owners proper hoof care and function.

But farrieres don't hate them. Because, they haven't had a fraction of the influence Strasser has (directly or indirectly, I'm sure you can appreciate the difference). If they did, farriers would hate them too. LOL, everything Marjorie learned, she learned from Strasser :D :D :D .

caballus

Jul. 22, 2006, 12:25 AM

LOL, everything Marjorie learned, she learned from Strasser :D :D :D .

This is a mis-statement. I've known Marjorie since before she went to Germany for certification (which she turned in shortly after receiving along with most of the others in the 1st group from here to be certified). She was *my* mentor and we've became good friends. Marjorie is a student of Ovnicek, Ramey and Jackson, among others, as well as Strasser.

Kaydence

Jul. 22, 2006, 02:34 AM

But farrieres don't hate them. Because, they haven't had a fraction of the influence Strasser has (directly or indirectly, I'm sure you can appreciate the difference). If they did, farriers would hate them too. LOL, everything Marjorie learned, she learned from Strasser :D :D :D .

I think it was already mentioned that farriers don't hate Strasser but rather the damage caused by the methods her name is often times attached to. I've had four clients go the way of the Strasser method. To date, I've had three of them ask me to take them back and fix their horses. I've accepted two of them back.

And I spoke to Marjorie back when she was into Strasser. A peak at her website a few years later and she wasn't such a strong supporter any more.

Tree

Jul. 22, 2006, 08:42 AM

Have now skimmed through this thread and maybe laptops weren't around when I still used a farrier for the horses/ponies.

I only carry one when I need to view digital xrays on disc if the owners or BO doesn't have a laptop. I'd rather not risk mine getting damaged by something....like overheating inside my truck. I carry a digital camera more times than not. If clients want PC time, it's on their own PC's or LT's. I'd rather they were focused on their horses...the ones that could stand better than they often times do. However, there are some which do better when their owners aren't around. ;)

I have some clients who keep up with their appts using a computerized gizmo pocket sized thingy. Obviously I still use a paper type appt organizer or I'd know what those pocket gizmos are called. :lol:

And to the OP about riding this horse, I wouldn't hesitate to do so when I know the hooves are set up to work better. And you mentioned something about her being hyper too. Well, I don't recall you saying if she was stalled part of the day or all day. The hyper horses I tend to see seemed not to have enough time to use up their energies or were dealing with other issues that caused them to be anxious. Pain issues can lead to axiousness but so can mental worries too. Even barn settings can cause horses to be anxious. But when it comes to hock issues, it's usually something mechanical behind it that would prevent a horse from using itself naturally and therefore sets it up for unnatural stresses.

Tree

PaulBunyon

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:20 AM

So, was I correct or not? Were you referring to F. Dr. Strasser or someone else? If someone else, pray tell, who?

And, as I originally noted and Kaydence had to again point out, farriers do not hate Strasser or any other barefoot-only guru We do however hate much of the garbage that is spewed. Not so much just because its garbage, but because of what it has the potential to do and actually does, to the horse.

Robyn LaPierre--nice person, , good at marketing, very profit oriented. Phinneas would be proud.

Darolyn Butler, last I knew was still shoeing her horses whenever she felt conditions so warranted.

Linda Cowles, never heard of her

Marjorie Smith, other than her tunnel vision, probably the one of the best of the lot when it comes to good, measured, information.

Jackson, Ramey, et al. all have fiefdoms to protect. Used to be it was "The Sharks vs The Jets"(West Side Story), now its one 24/7/365 barefooter vs another. It would be quite amusing if it wasn't so patently bad for the horse.

I've even seen some of the Dog and Pony road shows these folks put on. Long on hype and sleight of hand, short on meat and potato's.

Lookout

Jul. 22, 2006, 01:56 PM

This is a mis-statement. I've known Marjorie since before she went to Germany for certification (which she turned in shortly after receiving along with most of the others in the 1st group from here to be certified).
This is a mis-statement. Only Marjorie and Heike Bean turned in their certificates shortly after receiving.

She was *my* mentor and we've became good friends. Marjorie is a student of Ovnicek, Ramey and Jackson, among others, as well as Strasser.
Please read for content. First came Strasser and Jackson, then Ramey, who learned from Cindy, who learned from Strasser.
Sorry, I miss the logic of how her being your friend precludes her having learned from Strasser.

Huntertwo

Jul. 22, 2006, 02:55 PM

Quote: But, you might cry, how do you know Lookout was talking about a woman?

What in the world are you talking about??? I was referring to "Lookout" as being a "she"...:winkgrin:

BeastieSlave

Jul. 22, 2006, 04:14 PM

I don't have a lap top :no: My farrier sure doesn't. He has a hard enough time keeping my numbers programmed in his phone. It's never bothered me one bit that we aren't connected to the www at the barn. Heck, I didn't even know I was missing anything until this thread came along :eek:

PaulBunyon

Jul. 22, 2006, 04:27 PM

Quote: But, you might cry, how do you know Lookout was talking about a woman?

What in the world are you talking about??? I was referring to "Lookout" as being a "she"...:winkgrin:
Were I in an indulgent mood, I would help you with reading for comprehension. but I'm not, so you'll just have to muddle along on your own.

That said, perhaps saying the words out loud as you read them will be of some small aid to you.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 22, 2006, 04:39 PM

This is a mis-statement. Only Marjorie and Heike Bean turned in their certificates shortly after receiving.
Interesting, I had also heard that there were several who, in time, renounced the Strasser way by turning in their certificates or refusing to renew them. And, am I mistaken in my understanding that Cindy too has left the Strasser flock?
Please read for content. First came Strasser and Jackson, then Ramey, who learned from Cindy, who learned from Strasser.
Sorry, I miss the logic of how her being your friend precludes her having learned from Strasser.
Perhaps you should follow your own advise. To wit, caballus said:
Marjorie is a student of Ovnicek, Ramey and Jackson, among others, as well as Strasser.
You will note that at the end of that sentence, the phrase "as well as strasser" is used in conjunction with "Marjorie is a student of...."
So, do try to read for content comprehension.

Further, your chronological order of guru's is incorrect. First came Jackson.

And Ovnicek predates Strasser by quite a bit too. Though he is not a barefoot guru in its strictest construction, he, along with Chapman, Turner, Rooney, bennett and a whole list of others pre-date Strasser and individually and as a group have far eclipsed anything that strasser has done for anyone, most of all, the horse.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 22, 2006, 06:17 PM

Egads. I don't think I've ever had a nine page post before. How neat. :)

To the person who asked about the hyper comment I made earlier, I will elaborate a tad bit more. It isn't that she's hyper, per se, but that she does best when she's worked every day. She's not spooky/bucky or other such adjectives that would indicate excess energy...just that she's the kind of horse who is best if given a job to do. She's turned out for about 12 hours a day...stalled at night.

As for the rest of you guys who gave critiques of her hooves (or other advice), thank you thank you thank you. From what I can tell, the new farrier the BO has hired seems like a decent guy, so I may give him a go. For certain I'll bring up the issues I've been shown by you guyses for his opinions and such. If I ever have questions about him, you can bet I'll be posting them on here.

Forgive me if I've unanswered a few questions. I was at a horse show today and am mentally fried...and so is my skin.

Huntertwo

Jul. 22, 2006, 06:48 PM

Were I in an indulgent mood, I would help you with reading for comprehension. but I'm not, so you'll just have to muddle along on your own.

That said, perhaps saying the words out loud as you read them will be of some small aid to you.

Nice try, but believe me, I don't need you for reading comprehension. ;)

evenstar

Jul. 22, 2006, 07:48 PM

You'd be treading on thin ice here. Most farriers, other than in a veterinary practice, will not opine on another man's/woman's work. Especially if more than a day or two has elapsed since the work was done.

That's for sure. I've been fortunate to have the same farrier work with my horses for pretty much decades, except for a short span of time when I was at a particular barn where I just couldn't work it out. As soon as I could, I gave him a call to see if he would possibly consider doing my horses again. When he came out, he looked, I think he did go so far as to shake his head, then he got to work.
He has never, EVER, said anything about a farrier he's had to "work behind", with the exception of one farrier who was no longer in the business, where he allowed as how that particular farrier left a little too much toe and not enough heel.
Very classy guy.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 22, 2006, 08:30 PM

Nice try, but believe me, I don't need you for reading comprehension. ;)
Why should anyone believe you? Thus far, you have failed to demonstrate that
anyone should extend you that courtesy.

Perhaps a Sylvan or Kaplan course is in your future?

PaulBunyon

Jul. 22, 2006, 08:33 PM

When he came out, he looked, I think he did go so far as to shake his head, then he got to work.
He has never, EVER, said anything about a farrier he's had to "work behind",
When a farrier has little or nothing to say about another's work, that says alot.

bounce

Jul. 22, 2006, 08:57 PM

Okay, sorry if I am missing something... but doesn't the horse from "before Christmas" have a white sock on the front foot?

[QUOTE='[r.oo and l.ulu]']
Front Hooves (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture001.jpg)
Left Front #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture012.jpg)
Left Front #2 [I know it says right] (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture011.jpg)
Left Front #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture002.jpg)
Right Front #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture008.jpg)
Right Front #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture011.jpg)
Right Front #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture003.jpg)

Hind Hooves (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture004.jpg)
Right Hind #1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture014.jpg)
Right Hind #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture013.jpg)
Right Hind #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture005.jpg)
Left Hind #1 (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/?action=view&current=Picture010.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch9)
Left Hind #2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture009.jpg)
Left Hind #3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture006.jpg)

I only have two pictures from this past Christmas (before we moved here to Atlanta), and I doubt they'll help much, but here you go:

Front Feet (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_4.jpg)
Left Front (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_8.jpg)

I also don't really have many good conformation critiques, but you can tell (for the most part) how she typically stands:

Standing (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/?action=view&current=Picture015.jpg&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch4)

QUOTE]

Tree

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:11 PM

While the leg hairs appear to be light, the hoof wall is gray which means the leg isn't white. White legs tend to have white hooves or ones with some stripes. That hoof is gray.

Tree

evenstar

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evenstar
When he came out, he looked, I think he did go so far as to shake his head, then he got to work.
He has never, EVER, said anything about a farrier he's had to "work behind",

When a farrier has little or nothing to say about another's work, that says alot.

Believe me PB, in this case, I got the message!

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:25 PM

Okay, sorry if I am missing something... but doesn't the horse from "before Christmas" have a white sock on the front foot?

No, that's still her. She's a palomino, and a lighter one at that, so when she grows her winter coat and/or is shaved, she turns a cremello-ish color. So while it looks as if she's got white markings, she doesn't. She had just been shaved a few weeks before those pictures were taken.

Here's proof- photo was taken the same day as the Christmas photos:
winter Lulu (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_3.jpg) compared with summer Lulu (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture015.jpg)

If you do a search on palominos on google you'll often find that the same horse in winter can look almost like a totally different color than when the horse sheds out and gets darker.

It's little bit different than owning a chestnut or bay.

caballus

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:28 PM

This is a mis-statement. Only Marjorie and Heike Bean turned in their certificates shortly after receiving.

I was under the impression that a good number of others also turned in their certification from that group. Perhaps I heard erroneous information.

Please read for content. First came Strasser and Jackson, then Ramey, who learned from Cindy, who learned from Strasser.
Sorry, I miss the logic of how her being your friend precludes her having learned from Strasser.

Um, I was also understanding that Pete learned from Jaime as did Cindy. As for being a friend I only added that so as to back up what I was saying as 1st hand knowledge. We've talked alot about "things" and Marjorie has studied and learned from many, not just Strasser as you said, "everything Marjorie learned, she learned from Strasser." I was merely correcting your statement.

caballus

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:36 PM

Interesting, I had also heard that there were several who, in time, renounced the Strasser way by turning in their certificates or refusing to renew them. And, am I mistaken in my understanding that Cindy too has left the Strasser flock?

Yes, that is true if you are referring to Cindy "Hawk" Sullivan.

Further, your chronological order of guru's is incorrect. First came Jackson.

And Ovnicek predates Strasser by quite a bit too. Though he is not a barefoot guru in its strictest construction, he, along with Chapman, Turner, Rooney, bennett and a whole list of others pre-date Strasser and individually and as a group have far eclipsed anything that strasser has done for anyone, most of all, the horse.

I agree that they ALL have something beneficial to add to anyone's studies of the natural hoof and would highly recommend that, instead of closing one's mind to just ONE "method" of trimming that a full realm of learned masters be studied. Perceptions of any one hoof can vary and what one might see in a hoof that would be of value in terms of evaluation, another may not see. All veiwpoints are worthy of note and there's something to learn from everyone.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:38 PM

Just because- here's even more proof that it is, indeed, her.

Odd looking Lulu in the winter (notice the brand on her hip): Winter Lulu Again (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_6.jpg)

Lulu a couple of days ago: Summer Lulu Again (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture016.jpg)

PaulBunyon

Jul. 22, 2006, 09:59 PM

Yes, that is true if you are referring to Cindy "Hawk" Sullivan.
Yes, that is the person.

It would be interesting to know the number of US and Canadian course graduates that are no longer certified.

With regard to those who currently hold the certification, last I bothered to look, there were 7 in Canada and 27 in the US. Considering that the course/certification has been around for a while now, those numbers seem very low.

Compared to the number of practitioners, adherants and hanger-ons of the neuvo-gurus of 24/7/365 barefoot-only and their fiefdoms now litering the landscape, Strasser and her devotees seem to be slipping back into obscurity(not that they will be missed).

Trakehners2000

Jul. 22, 2006, 10:59 PM

']Just because- here's even more proof that it is, indeed, her.

Odd looking Lulu in the winter (notice the brand on her hip): Winter Lulu Again (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_6.jpg)

Lulu a couple of days ago: Summer Lulu Again (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture016.jpg)
Just wondering what type of work you do on her? And are you certain of your saddle fit? Her muscle over her topline looks weak. I did notice on my horse that when he had LTLH, his muscle behind and in front of the withers was weak, I wondered if this was due to strain from standing incorrectly., though Lulu does look muscled 'wrong', over her topline. She certainly could benefit from being ridden more round, and she really does look like she has been carrying a saddle that may not fit the best....sorry....though this may be part of her problem, not all in the hocks... if you get her saddle fit check, get her going fwd and round (encourage better muscle) and fit her hooves, you might have a much sounder horse on your hands, and lengthen her useful life..... sorry, I know you did not ask about this, though I couldn't help notice....

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 22, 2006, 11:07 PM

Just wondering what type of work you do on her? And are you certain of your saddle fit? Her muscle over her topline looks weak. I did notice on my horse that when he had LTLH, his muscle behind and in front of the withers was weak, I wondered if this was due to strain from standing incorrectly., though Lulu does look muscled 'wrong', over her topline. She certainly could benefit from being ridden more round, and she really does look like she has been carrying a saddle that may not fit the best....sorry....though this may be part of her problem, not all in the hocks... if you get her saddle fit check, get her going fwd and round (encourage better muscle) and fit her hooves, you might have a much sounder horse on your hands, and lengthen her useful life..... sorry, I know you did not ask about this, though I couldn't help notice....

I'm sure she does need more work, but I had always been under the impression that her conformation configuration (long back/shallow hip) was always going to be a bit of a hindrance to getting the really strong topline look that a shorter backed horse would be able to achieve. I was also using a different saddle in the winter picture than I am now.

Maybe I'm not sure, exactly, of what you're seeing?

FWIW, I'm starting Dressage lessons at the end of this month (29th), so whatever issues we have should be addressed then.

Edited to add: I'm also selling the saddle I have now to buy a better fitting one (for the both of us), and am also addressing the farrier issue.

Trakehners2000

Jul. 22, 2006, 11:07 PM

Just wondered if you did all of those personalized photos yourself? If so, did you do the photography too??? I have done some things like this too, and enjoyed it, though not as many as you have on your page....they are beautiful....:yes:

Trakehners2000

Jul. 22, 2006, 11:42 PM

Maybe I'm not sure, exactly, of what you're seeing?

FWIW, I'm starting Dressage lessons at the end of this month (29th), so whatever issues we have should be addressed then.

Edited to add: I'm also selling the saddle I have now to buy a better fitting one (for the both of us), and am also addressing the farrier issue.

Saw the pix of her tied to the trailer, and now I know why her back was looking like that, and nope, it isn't just her conformation. Actually, I like her build just fine.... The problems I have seen in backs that look like hers come from a saddle, in this case your western one, that is placed *way* too far forward. If you look at your saddle in the photo, it isn't level at all, too far forward, and all the pressure with you in the saddle comes down on her spine, since your saddle is pointed upward, it pushes you into the back.

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11708839/170161127.jpg

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11708839/170161122.jpg

A good guideline to go by is to find your shoulder blade, if you are unsure where it rotates to, stand near her side and have someone pick up her front leg,**edited to add**(have the person bring her leg forward, like for the farrier, not just like picking it up for a hoof cleaning)*** nearest to you, and you will see it rotate backward.
Make a mental note (or use a grease pen) and have an idea where her shoulder blade rotates to. Another good thing to do is ride bareback and pay close attention to where her shoulder blades rotate to.... Then, when you saddle her, make certain that your saddle rests just behind where her shoulder blades rotate to. Right now, the saddle is way up on her shoulders,
and it is slanted/ pointing up, putting all of your weight onto her spine, I equate this to someone putting their knuckles into your lower back, it really digs in and can cause permanent damage to her spine.:(

Also, it is good to make sure that your saddle pad is pushed up into the space beneath the cantle, if your pad is allowd to be pushed down tight over the withers, you could equate this to feeling a towel pushed down tightly over your withers, or that little bump at the base of your neck, where your neck becomes your upper back... make sure there is room under that pad...what I do is push my hand up under the pad, between the horse and pad, and rock the saddle down onto my hand, this leaves a nice space over the withers.

caballus

Jul. 23, 2006, 06:28 AM

Yes, that is the person.

It would be interesting to know the number of US and Canadian course graduates that are no longer certified.

With regard to those who currently hold the certification, last I bothered to look, there were 7 in Canada and 27 in the US. Considering that the course/certification has been around for a while now, those numbers seem very low.

But, that's relative, isn't it? The course, itself, is VERY expensive and I wouldn't think there are that many to begin with who have completed enough to actually go to Germany to be Certified. I've heard of plenty who "do" a "Strasser-style" trim but that does not equate to being Certified. ??

Tree

Jul. 23, 2006, 09:53 AM

Cindy Sullivan was never certified by Strasser. She never even enroled in the SHP course. What part of Strasser's "flock" was she ever in?

As it was, I met Cindy for the first time while attending a Strasser 3-Day Basic Hoofcare Seminar held in Chickamauga, GA back in May 2000. If I'm not mistaken, she no sooner returned to her home and went to Pete to show him what she'd learned at that Seminar. At that time Pete was still shoeing the trail horses and she talked him into pulling shoes and giving barefoot a go. How these events tie in with Jaime Jackson, I don't know.

Tree

PaulBunyon

Jul. 23, 2006, 10:14 AM

The following information may be of passing interest to some here.

According to information in the AFJ, July/August2006,volume 32, number5;p.40:

"Going into effect on July 1,2007, a new law represents the first changes in nearly 70 years on how farriers operate in Germany. Passed in March, the legislation will upgrade footcare training and seperate shoers from blacksmiths and metallurgy tradesmen.

The new law will regulate anyone who shoes, treats, corrects or protects the horse's hoof. Training will be regulated with a single diploma issued by a state school that will cover all aspects of hoofcare. Anyone wishing to practice any trade that deals with equine locomotion will have to be apprenticed to a confirmed, official degree-carrying farrier prior to enrolling in a farrier school.

The law should clarify a confusing situation for horse owners since there are currently three categories of hoof-care professionals working in Germany: The traditional farrier, the hoof trimmer who does not set any type of shoe and the hoof technician who sets alternative shoes without nails. Under the new law, hoof technicians will not longer be allowed to practice and must obtain an official degree to conform with the new law. As might be expected both trimmers and technicians are already calling for an ammendment to the law."

(note: the bold for emphasis is my addition)

Absent ammendment, looks like Strasser et. al will be out of business in Germany next July. If the law holds as passed, will the rest of the EC be far behind in passing similar legislation? The mind boggles at the possibilities.

Jul. 23, 2006, 10:16 AM

Trakehners, good call, yes, the horse is lacking muscling and is showing signs of carrying rider weight incorrectly.

Roo, even a longer backed horse can develop a very nice topline when ridden correctly in a well-fitting saddle :)

goeslikestink

Jul. 23, 2006, 11:43 AM

i dont ride western i can ride weatern used to have a sddle from american and bridlle but dont now -- but that just to far forward for my likling and would give the pony a lot of gyp --as realine weight issue as you havent spotted it yourself -- who ever pointed it out well done you --- seconded

barney4liz

Jul. 23, 2006, 01:08 PM

It sure seems that farriers are extremely threatened by the growing interest in the barefoot lifestyle and the prospect that more owners will opt for no shoes and might even learn how to maintain bare hooves themselves.

If they aren't threatened, then I don't understand why they feel compelled to hang out on the internet and bash barefoot practitioners and interested owners with schoolyard bully name-calling.

Too bad competent farriers don't choose instead to spend their time and energy weeding out the cr*p shoers who are giving the profession a bad name. Maybe if farriers were able to effectively regulate their own profession there wouldn't be so many owners looking for alterntatives.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 23, 2006, 03:24 PM

It sure seems that farriers are extremely threatened by the growing interest in the barefoot lifestyle and the prospect that more owners will opt for no shoes and might even learn how to maintain bare hooves themselves.
Considering that farriers provide a great barefoot option for those horses who
are able to enjoy that lifestyle, your impression is quite incorrect. Of course, I do admit we get tired of having the mantra of the 24/7/365 barefoot-only doofi shoved in our faces.
If they aren't threatened, then I don't understand why they feel compelled to hang out on the internet and bash barefoot practitioners and interested owners with schoolyard bully name-calling.
To counter the absolute rubbish spouted as the mantra of the barefoot only doofi, that's why. And the descriptive terms used, are the ones that apply. If they don't apply to you, why worry? If they do apply to you, perhaps you should consider both why and what alternatives are available to you.

If by now, you have read sarcasm, contempt and disrespect into anything I have said regarding certain of the barefoot-only gurus, their followers and practitioners, then congratulations! You have astutely understood the tone and tenor of my remarks.

Too bad competent farriers don't choose instead to spend their time and energy weeding out the cr*p shoers who are giving the profession a bad name. Maybe if farriers were able to effectively regulate their own profession there wouldn't be so many owners looking for alterntatives.
Your ignorance is showing. Neither the profession of farriery, nor the cult of barefoot only trimmers is regulated in any way. So perhaps, you would be kind enough to explain how incompetent farriers or incompetent barefoot-only trimmers(and yes there are a whole manure spreader full of them out there too)are to be weeded out.

Perhaps we should start with the horse owners? As is easily evidenced, there are more than enough incompetent horse owners out there than there ever will be incompetent farriers. Considering that many of those incompetent horse owners are also incompetent barefoot-only trimmers, a workable solution would get rid of two birds with one stone.

Huntertwo

Jul. 23, 2006, 03:33 PM

Why should anyone believe you? Thus far, you have failed to demonstrate that
anyone should extend you that courtesy.

Perhaps a Sylvan or Kaplan course is in your future?

Hey Pauly,
After reading your signature, I DO believe you have a case of Bozone...hee hee

Again, your comments directed towards me, make no sense in the least.:lol:

Thomas_1

Jul. 23, 2006, 04:23 PM

With regard to foot critique I am in agreement with Cosmos mum.

The horse is indeed in dire need of a decent farrier.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 23, 2006, 04:28 PM

Hey Pauly,
After reading your signature, I DO believe you have a case of Bozone...hee hee

Again, your comments directed towards me, make no sense in the least.:lol:
Hey HTwoie,

analogously, a fox smells its own butt, first. Besides, your beliefs are not germane.

Comments directed your way are the result of the apparent lack of reading comprehension and/or obtusiveness you have exhibited in your various replies during our reparte' and my reparte' with others.

EqTrainer

Jul. 23, 2006, 04:48 PM

Not interested in the ongoing debate here but I will say that I think the original markups of how much foot could be removed are probably very close to realistic. We just did a horse whose feet looked alarmingly like the OP's pics and my farrier took off about that much foot.

Oh, and if any farrier of mine shod a horse to look like that I would fire him, no ??? asked. That would be after I told him to pull the shoes BACK off, the horse would be better off barefoot with me trimming it then shod like that.

bounce

Jul. 23, 2006, 05:16 PM

Thanks for straightening me out :yes: Bays and chestnut abound at our barn! We hardly every see palomino OTTBs :lol:

']No, that's still her. She's a palomino, and a lighter one at that, so when she grows her winter coat and/or is shaved, she turns a cremello-ish color. So while it looks as if she's got white markings, she doesn't. She had just been shaved a few weeks before those pictures were taken.

Here's proof- photo was taken the same day as the Christmas photos:
winter Lulu (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/5%20Stafford%20Stables-%201st%20barn-%20Savannah/staffordstablessavannah_3.jpg) compared with summer Lulu (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/XxbarrelracingxX/7%20King%20Show%20Stables-%20current%20barn-%20Atlanta/Picture015.jpg)

If you do a search on palominos on google you'll often find that the same horse in winter can look almost like a totally different color than when the horse sheds out and gets darker.

It's little bit different than owning a chestnut or bay.

goeslikestink

Jul. 23, 2006, 05:41 PM

my arran was the same -- but his mother was oppersite in winter palomino colour and rich palomonio to chestnut almost summer as she got older a pally --rich in the the sumer months

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 23, 2006, 06:00 PM

Trakehners2000- Very interesting indeed! The saddle I have now that doesn't fit will often times slide back and pinches exactly where you circled. I've also noticed there seems to be undue pressure on the back as well...exactly where you circled at the back. I've got two offers on my show saddle now, so hopefully I can get that sucker sold and start searching for a better fitting saddle.

You know, the BO pointed at the area behind her shoulders and in her flank area and said that was where she needed more weight. Is it possible that she doesn't need weight as in fat, but weight as in muscle? I realize you'd probably need more pictures and hands on feel to tell for sure, but you noting that there needed to be more muscle made me think if that's what's missing, not the fat.

As for the personalized pictures, thank you :D yes I did them, but not the photography (I wish). I had a picture I made of Lulu in my signature over at the Young Rider forums, and ended up making pictures for quite a few people- all of the pictures on the Photobucket account were made for YR people. Some of my favorites (as I would often get people who would give me photos with bad lighting/blurry or a strict requirement for a background even when I didn't think it went well with the overall picture) are on a forgotten Webshots account.

I'd like to get my hands on a real photo editing program (like Adobe or Photoshp), and play with one of those for a while and see what I could come up with, but for now I'm using a shoddy program that came with the computer.

bounce- Lol! Sometimes I wish I had gone with a bay or chestnut. All the color changing and the white mane and tail :rolleyes: not to mention she's a mare on top of it all...oi. I think my next horse is going to be a nice bay. :D

goeslikestink- That really happens?! That's kinda neat. I wish there was some majik supplement I could slip into her feed that would keep her summer coat (ooh! and the dapples she gets in the fall/spring) all year long.

barney4liz

Jul. 23, 2006, 07:55 PM

:lol: Paul Bunyon continues to prove my point. :lol: To wit, PB said:

To counter the absolute rubbish spouted as the mantra of the barefoot only doofi, that's why. And the descriptive terms used, are the ones that apply. If they don't apply to you, why worry? If they do apply to you, perhaps you should consider both why and what alternatives are available to you.

If by now, you have read sarcasm, contempt and disrespect into anything I have said regarding certain of the barefoot-only gurus, their followers and practitioners, then congratulations! You have astutely understood the tone and tenor of my remarks.

Your ignorance is showing. Neither the profession of farriery, nor the cult of barefoot only trimmers is regulated in any way. So perhaps, you would be kind enough to explain how incompetent farriers or incompetent barefoot-only trimmers(and yes there are a whole manure spreader full of them out there too)are to be weeded out.

Again with the name-calling and bullying. Such a fine example of your profession.

If farriers do indeed aspire to be a "profession" -- same with barefooters/holistic hoofcare providers -- the standards for becoming a "profession" are commonly understood. I resorted to a Wikipedia search to find the following definition, which is consistent with what I was taught in my legal profession class.

Quote A profession is an occupation that requires extensive training and the study and mastery of specialized knowledge, and usually has a professional association, ethical code and process of certification or licensing. Examples are accounting, law, architecture, nursing, medicine, finance, the military, the clergy and engineering.

Classically, there were only three professions: ministry, medicine, and law. These three professions each hold to a specific code of ethics, and members are almost universally required to swear some form of oath to uphold those ethics, therefore "professing" to a higher standard of accountability. Each of these professions also provides and requires extensive training in the meaning, value, and importance of its particular oath in the practice of that profession.

Sociologists have been known to define professionalism as self-defined power elitism or as organised exclusivity along guild lines, much in the sense that George Bernard Shaw characterised all professions as "conspiracies against the laity". Sociological definitions of professionalism involving checklists of perceived or claimed characteristics (altruism, self-governance, esoteric knowledge, special skills, ethical behavior, etc.) became less fashionable in the late 20th century.

A member of a profession is termed a professional. However, professional is also used for the acceptance of payment for an activity, in contrast to amateur. A professional sportsperson, for example, is one who receives payment for participating in sport, but sport is not generally considered a profession.

So, like any other profession (mine included), y'all would need to get your act together, organize, lobby, develop an enforceable standard of training, and licensing requirements.

Until you do so, sorry, we "doofi" :lol: owners will accord you NO MORE AND NO LESS DEFERENCE than any other person with acquired knoweldge and experience in the care of hooves.

Tree

Jul. 23, 2006, 08:09 PM

Yes and when someone, like Strasser, regulates those she has certified, it's labeled a franchise rather than having a set of standards to adhere to.

Tree

PaulBunyon

Jul. 23, 2006, 08:22 PM

:
[quote]Such a fine example of your profession.
Thank you. And good and correct of you to recognize that farriery is a profession.(its right about now that you start steaming and saying "Curses foiled again":lol: :lol: )
If farriers do indeed aspire to be a "profession"
As you already noted, its not a question of 'if', but a statement of 'already'.
-- same with barefooters/holistic hoofcare providers -- the standards for becoming a "profession" are commonly understood.
Which is why the cult of 24/7/365 barefoot-only providers will never become recognized as either professional or a profession.
I resorted to a Wikipedia search to find the following definition, which is consistent with what I was taught in my legal profession class.
Getting desperate huh? since Wikipedia definitions can be altered by anyone at any time, your source could be considered by some to be suspect. As to what you were or were not taught, quien sabe?
So, like any other profession (mine included), y'all would need to get your act together, organize, lobby, develop an enforceable standard of training, and licensing requirements. Consider the fact that there are national farrier organizations. Consider that the JHU is part of the AFL-CIO and thus is organized, has lobbyists, etc., Consider that the other national farrier organizations/associations have certifications, Consider who is going to 'police' the training standards and licensing requirements, consider the economic impact on the consumer. Get back to me when you have it all worked out.

By the way, are all doctors and lawyers and members of every ministry, organized, have lobbyists retained, ad naseum?
Until you do so, sorry, we "doofi" :lol: owners will accord you NO MORE AND NO LESS DEFERENCE than any other person with acquired knoweldge and experience in the care of hooves.
Though you place yourself in the Nation of Doofi, that is not where every owner swears allegience. And truthfully, most of us dont care if you accord us deference or not. If your check is good and all other things being equal, we'll just provide our services, take your money and laugh all the way to the bank.

Nor do I expect you to accord me respect. Not unless I've earned it. And ceratinly don't expect me to respect you. Not unless you've earned it.
Members of the Doofi Nation have a very uphill climb. Horsemen and horsewomen, don't.

barney4liz

Jul. 23, 2006, 08:53 PM

:

Thank you. And good and correct of you to recognize that farriery is a profession.(its right about now that you start steaming and saying "Curses foiled again":lol: :lol: )

As you already noted, its not a question of 'if', but a statement of 'already'.

Which is why the cult of 24/7/365 barefoot-only providers will never become recognized as either professional or a profession.

Explain how farriers are a "profession" as defined?

Getting desperate huh? since Wikipedia definitions can be altered by anyone at any time, your source could be considered by some to be suspect. As to what you were or were not taught, quien sabe?

Please explain why the definition is suspect?

Consider the fact that there are national farrier organizations. Consider that the JHU is part of the AFL-CIO and thus is organized, has lobbyists, etc., Consider that the other national farrier organizations/associations have certifications, Consider who is going to 'police' the training standards and licensing requirements, consider the economic impact on the consumer. Get back to me when you have it all worked out.

Consider that none of the above establishes that farriers are a nationally-recognized profession.

By the way, are all doctors and lawyers and members of every ministry, organized, have lobbyists retained, ad naseum?

Sorry, as a member of the Doofi Nation I must ask what your point is?????

Though you place yourself in the Nation of Doofi, that is not where every owner swears allegience. And truthfully, most of us dont care if you accord us deference or not. If your check is good and all other things being equal, we'll just provide our services, take your money and laugh all the way to the bank.

Nor do I expect you to accord me respect. Not unless I've earned it. And ceratinly don't expect me to respect you. Not unless you've earned it.
Members of the Doofi Nation have a very uphill climb. Horsemen and horsewomen, don't.

Eh, you still haven't explained why your training entitles you to greater deference than anyone else that holds themselves out as a hoofcare professional. "'Cause I said so" really isn't a satisfactory answer.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 23, 2006, 09:39 PM

Yes and when someone, like Strasser, regulates those she has certified, it's labeled a franchise rather than having a set of standards to adhere to.

Tree
Standards are quite different from the absolutes Strasser requires. If you cannot ken the difference then there is no hope for you.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 23, 2006, 09:46 PM

Explain how farriers are a "profession" as defined?
No, I don't think I will. It is, after all, a pointless exercise when engaging with one such as yourself.
Consider that none of the above establishes that farriers are a nationally-recognized profession.
Au Contraire'.
Sorry, as a member of the Doofi Nation I must ask what your point is?????
Point is that if all of the afore mentioned do not have to join any organization, or be represented by lobbyists, etc, then according to you, they're not professionals either. And, for the record, doctors and lawyers are not required to join any organization.
Eh, you still haven't explained why your training entitles you to greater deference than anyone else that holds themselves out as a hoofcare professional. "'Cause I said so" really isn't a satisfactory answer.
You yet again have failed Reading Comprehension 101. I never said I was entitled to any more or any less deference than anyone else. Please refer to my comments regarding respect, of which, deference is a component, for a more full explanation of my position.

Feel free to quote any parts that you don't understand so I can dumb them down for you.

barney4liz

Jul. 23, 2006, 10:25 PM

And, for the record, doctors and lawyers are not required to join any organization.

Oh, really? Sorry, PB, but membership in a state bar association is usually mandatory to having a license to practice in a particular state.

You have yet to identify any reasons why the opinions of farriers are entitled to greater respect than the opinions of other hoofcare practitioners.

PaulBunyon

Jul. 24, 2006, 07:41 AM

You have yet to identify any reasons why the opinions of farriers are entitled to greater respect than the opinions of other hoofcare practitioners.
Obviously, you need to learn to read for comprehension.

I saidNor do I expect you to accord me respect. Not unless I've earned it. And ceratinly don't expect me to respect you. Not unless you've earned it.
Members of the Doofi Nation have a very uphill climb. Horsemen and horsewomen, don't.

I also saidI never said I was entitled to any more or any less deference than anyone else. Please refer to my comments regarding respect, of which, deference is a component, for a more full explanation of my position.

Now while this little tete-a tete has been entertaining, it has now lost its entertainment value, so I am going to heed the old adage "Never argue with a fool. First they drag you down to their level , then they beat you with experience." Which means, I will no longer argue with you. I have suffered your foolishness far longer than I normally do. I will not make that mistake again.

silvia

Jul. 24, 2006, 07:56 AM

Hi roo :)

I bought back my gelding about 8 months ago (long story) and when I picked him up, it was obvious they had been using a substandard farrier. He had very long feet, overgrown shoes and underrun heels. His back had dramatically weakened and atrophied and he was a sour horse.

I had his shoes removed and trimmed back to a correct shape. He had paddock rest for 6 months during which he continued to have his feet trimmed (just an normal trim).

Now he has much better feet and I can trail ride him out on steep rocky trails no problems. He always had good feet when I first had him so the transition back to not having shoes was a simple one.

I have since changed from my old farrier to a hoofcare specialist (my old farrier was no longer available regularly). She is a lovely lady and is currently working on helping his heels continue decontracting.

I have found no difference in his comfort between the normal trim and the 'barefoot' trim, but I appreciate her patience and kindness with my horses and she is very thorough. She takes the time to explain to me parts of the hoof and the little problems she is finding, and how and why they are there. She has offered to show me a little about maintaining hooves if I am interested in learning more. I find this a big difference compared to the farriers I have had and I enjoy it a lot. She also pointed out to one of my fellow boarders that has been having problems with her (shod) horses that he had badly underslung heels and long toes, and to discuss it with their farrier. She did that very politely and they did - the horse is no longer bucking under saddle now. My only interest is in what is best for my horses, I love to learn, and I like my new 'hoofcare specialist'!

Both my geldings ride out on extremely hard, hilly, rocky ground and come away sound. The rides can be quite long and sometimes fast but they never stumble or slip. Even things like crossing brooks and muddy spots their feet are like suction cups!

I also had a TB that had his shoes pulled and was quite ouchy for a long time in pasture - maybe 3 months I spelled him. He was never quite comfortable without his shoes, so I stuck to soft ground. He did improve slowly but if I was jumping him etc, he would have been a candidate to me to have shoes put back on.

There's no hard and fast rule. Just make sure you get someone who is GOOD! :D

matryoshka

Jul. 24, 2006, 08:04 AM

Saw your post over on horseshoes.com--you got some good replies so far. RB is even being nice to you! That's nearly a first for him. :) Cute mare, BTW. :yes:

oldgraymare

Jul. 24, 2006, 08:12 AM

I think this thread is about ready to fade away since PB has decided to no longer contribute to it, but I just wanted to say that I am so impressed with you, r.oo. I never would have guessed that you are only 16 years old by your posts. Your mare is very lucky to have you taking care of her.

Love your personalized pictures!!!

I'm glad things have worked out with the BO and getting a new farrier and I'm sure Lulu's feet will be looking better in no time!

barney4liz

Jul. 24, 2006, 09:53 AM

Just put Paul Bunyan on your IGNORE list. That's what I've done, and it works great! You don't have to read any of the jibberish and name calling, and don't have to see his attacks on your intelligence. :D Works like a charm! :yes: If and when he decides to contribute without the personal attacks, I will happily remove him and discuss whatever he would like to discuss. But apparently he is only interested in attacks, so that's what that handy dandy little IGNORE button is for!

Well I DID have him on my ignore list, but then it became amusing to see how many ways he could work "fool" and "doofi" into his posts. :lol:

Off now to enroll in that Reading Comprehension 101 class. :D ;)

To the OP -- sorry for the extreme hijacking! I hope you find a top-notch hoofcare practitioner to help you.

Trakehners2000

Jul. 24, 2006, 10:19 AM

']Trakehners2000- Very interesting indeed! The saddle I have now that doesn't fit will often times slide back and pinches exactly where you circled. I've also noticed there seems to be undue pressure on the back as well...exactly where you circled at the back. I've got two offers on my show saddle now, so hopefully I can get that sucker sold and start searching for a better fitting saddle.

You know, the BO pointed at the area behind her shoulders and in her flank area and said that was where she needed more weight. Is it possible that she doesn't need weight as in fat, but weight as in muscle?

As for the personalized pictures, thank you :D yes I did them
I'd like to get my hands on a real photo editing program (like Adobe or Photoshp), and play with one of those for a while and see what I could come up with, but for now I'm using a shoddy program that came with the computer.

What program did you use? I like photo studio, though it was on my old pc and i have yet to buy the new program. Maybe I should look on eBay?;) Never occurs to me to look at anything other than horse stuff and art on there!!!!!! I am positive it is negative muscle, it can be solved through working her through her topline, which you will be doing in your dressage lessons, and through a saddle with a good fit. Since she has been wearing this saddle for a long time, a chiro adjustment might help get her back on track faster once her new saddle is found. I have had good luck with Ortho-Flex saddles. We have two, one is a Patriot, and one is a Stitch Down dressage (both bought off of eBay) The stitch down fits my boy perfectly, like no other saddle has. Just a thought, Ortho-Flex makes a saddle for every discipline & they hold their resale value quite well. I hope yo get it sorted out with your lovely mare, I like her, and bet that she will enjoy your lessons with dressage, too.:cool:

Huntertwo

Jul. 24, 2006, 02:39 PM

Its funny when P.B. stands corrected, his only response is that the other poster cannot read for comphrehension....lol

Lookout

Jul. 24, 2006, 03:22 PM

Just put Paul Bunyan on your IGNORE list. That's what I've done, and it works great!
Yes :yes: like Mastercard. It's priceless.

[r.oo and l.ulu]

Jul. 24, 2006, 11:38 PM

silvia- Thank you for sharing your experience; it sounds like your guys are certainly well taken care of. Unless the farrier can do some hard core convincing, I really would like to switch her back to barefoot and see how things go. She did really well when we pulled shoes before, and she has relatively good feet, so I'm hoping this move will only be for the best.

matryoshka- I know! He even said I was astute :eek: :D

Thank you for the compliment. She's a cool mare, but I think (or realize, actually) that the saddle fit issue, combined with the feet have made her a tad bit grouchy lately. I had just summed it up to her being her as she's quite a mare's mare, but the advice given on here has confirmed my gut feeling that more is going on. I just wish I could fast forward months from now to see the end result!

oldgraymare- :blushing smilie: Thank you :)

barney4liz- No skin off of my nose! The more posts the merrier- if it wasn't for the rest of these people sparring, I wouldn't have a twelve page post :D . That's vain, isn't it?

Trakehners2000- I use PhotoStudio2000. It does what I need it to do, but I can't do all the super cool special effects that the "real" programs have such as airbrushing, lighting effects, and the like. From what I gather, professional graphic designers use the Photoshop and Adobe programs. I definitely know what you mean about eBay! Sometimes it takes me by surprise that I use the computer for 90% horse stuff...imagine what I could learn if I devoted some more time to other subjects...like school :winkgrin: :lol:

Now I'm super anxious to sell my saddle and buy a new one! I checked out the Ortho saddles and my are they expensive! :eek: Unfortunately, the money I get from my show saddle will have to go to two saddles (that I will buy used of course) and a Dressage show outfit (used of course)...and a few miscellaneous items that I've always wanted/needed but didn't have the money for.

Where do you go to research good chiros?