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nero
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:01 PM
OK, just so ESG and others can have another opportunity to call me ridiculous!! I thought I'd ask a question (hopefully the response will be a little more civil!). I've been looking at pics of Weltall and Farbenfroh, probably the two most expressive horses from recent years on the shoulder reach department to see if it is possible for a horse to be engaged behind AND still exhibit more reach and scope in front. If you go to www.arnd.nl and search the database for Farbenfroh and Weltall I think you will see examples of where this does happen. Two well engaged horses who both have substantial overtrack but still have more reach in front than behind. Particulalry Farbenfroh, I just do not see how it would be physically possible for the horse to parallel canons, but I still think he is engaged. In particualr image numbers 020701480, 010813154, 000717912 and 010618114 for Farbenfroh. Just go to link, click on search database and type his name into the search field.

I'd prefer not to be called ridiculous if that's possible for suggesting this, just trying to train my eye, I'm no dummie, but maybe you'll disagree and I can have my incorrectness explained! ;-)

Dalfan
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:19 PM
I think you are talking about the angles of the diagonal hind cannon/fore FOREARM (not fore cannon) that should be the same. Yes??

Edit; If that is the case, none of the pictures show an equal angle

nero
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:21 PM
I think you are talking about the angles of the diagonal hind cannon/fore FOREARM (not fore cannon) that should be the same. Yes??
Um, maybe I thought it was suppose to be the two canons, but open to suggestions.

nhwr
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:40 PM
Looking at some photos, this doesn't seem to be much of an issue for Weltall. His legs look parallel to my eye for the most part. With Farbenfroh, this is not the case. Look at 000717912 and 010618114. Expressive in front? Sure, but not really engaged, IMO. Engagement isn't simply overtrack and expression. It is flexing the joints, particularly the hocks and connection through the back.

Also the definition of extended trot states that the legs should be parallel (I agree, FWIW). So to be good thats gotta be there or the definition needs to change ;)

Dalfan
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:41 PM
No, it is the fore forearm and the hind cannon of the diagonal pairs that should be of equal angles. Also you notice that the space between the forelegs and the space between the hindlegs are not equal, indicating less activity in the hind and more extravagance in the front. Not saying the pics/riders are not nice, just observations and indicators.

Horsedances
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:47 PM
While i was working through some old scrapbooks.

www.horsedances.net/Favo03.wmv (http://www.horsedances.net/Favo03.wmv)

and a much bigger file from Herr Doctor Balkenholl

www.horsedances.net/Balk03.wmv (http://www.horsedances.net/Balk03.wmv)

Enjoy,

Theo

Dalfan
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:55 PM
Horsedances; not getting the second vid. starts to open then goes kaput. Love the slo-mo of the first vid, really nice.

nero
Jul. 17, 2006, 08:59 PM
OK, but putting aside what we know is correct through experience with dressage and what the judges want, what about those horses that are freakishly expressive in front and do have more freedom in the shoulder than is physically capable from the hind, because a horse is super free in front does this mean that the are not using their hind properly? Sorry if this doesn't make sense but I know what I'm trying to say, just not doing it very well.

Horsedances
Jul. 17, 2006, 09:08 PM
Horsedances; not getting the second vid. starts to open then goes kaput. Love the slo-mo of the first vid, really nice.

The first clips is < 1 MB, the second is >20 MB so click with your right mouse button on the link and chose for save target as, and you have KB dancing on your own computer.

Theo

kkj
Jul. 17, 2006, 09:13 PM
Thanks Theo. I love the videos.

What happened to Weltall? I haven't heard about him lately. Man I almost forgot how amazing he is. I just love watching that horse (wouldn't ever try to ride him though). Farbenfroh retired from injury right? He was pretty spectacular to but not so much as Weltall.

egontoast
Jul. 17, 2006, 09:26 PM
Farbenfroh is deceased.

Dalfan
Jul. 17, 2006, 09:34 PM
Thanks for the vids, horsedances. What a beautiful rider.

merrygoround
Jul. 17, 2006, 10:19 PM
Thank you HORSEDANCES, from here. I only wish on my screen it came up lighter on the KB video, so I could better watch KB, the rider.

canyonoak
Jul. 17, 2006, 11:41 PM
So who are horse/rider in the short clip?

sabryant
Jul. 18, 2006, 12:29 AM
I'm with you, Nero on the parallelogram being the cannon bones front/back. I couldn't get the pictures to come up but I did get the video to p[lay. That first horse, in videos, has the bounce and the engagement, finally! I think with this style horse that there is a moment...I see it in a lot of pictures (at the very begin of each trot stride where the hind leg is behind the front leg. Hind rolls out behind before stepping under but it does eventually catch up...could be why you never see them sit in the down transitions back to collected trot. I have never had this talent of horse to prepare so feel like I caan't make an opinion on whether it is the style of horse (which is where I tend to lean) or if it is training.

Sabine
Jul. 18, 2006, 12:34 AM
Thank you Theo- so good to have you here- let's all send him some cookies...LOL!

I love the first horse- I think there is true paralell-ness in a stance of time during the huge movement he displays with a very good and following rider- with excellent hands- not getting in the way at all...and that was a bunch of bounces to sit through...wow.
With KB- it seems that the horse is working from a very strong shoulder-chestarea and actually propelling more from there than from behind- maybe some of this is physically predisposed and not just a training/riding issue...just like some peeps are very strong in their shoulders and arms- and others are very strong in their pelvis and thighs...just musing...??:)

sabryant
Jul. 18, 2006, 12:39 AM
Thank you Theo- so good to have you here- let's all send him some cookies...LOL!

I love the first horse- I think there is true paralell-ness in a stance of time during the huge movement he displays with a very good and following rider- with excellent hands- not getting in the way at all...and that was a bunch of bounces to sit through...wow.
With KB- it seems that the horse is working from a very strong shoulder-chestarea and actually propelling more from there than from behind- maybe some of this is physically predisposed and not just a training/riding issue...just like some peeps are very strong in their shoulders and arms- and others are very strong in their pelvis and thighs...just musing...??:)


Muse away there, my friend! I tend to agree with you and I think cookies for Theo are, indeed, a great idea! Anybody remember that stallion Bonjour? He had that wonderful front end and the hindend to match but no one could sit his trot. Though I think V gave it a darn good try. Wonder what the human spine would look like on xray after sitting that for a couple years?

Sabine
Jul. 18, 2006, 01:02 AM
Muse away there, my friend! I tend to agree with you and I think cookies for Theo are, indeed, a great idea! Anybody remember that stallion Bonjour? He had that wonderful front end and the hindend to match but no one could sit his trot. Though I think V gave it a darn good try. Wonder what the human spine would look like on xray after sitting that for a couple years?


Me thinks it would be like one of those sessions that we all dread with the vet- when you look at x-rays and the edges of the bone look kind of frayed...:(

SAB who is V? do you know who the rider/horse combo is in the first video??

sabryant
Jul. 18, 2006, 01:05 AM
Voker Bromman used to ride Bonjour! I don't know who the combo is in the first video. Hoping Theo will enlighten us???

Horsedances
Jul. 18, 2006, 04:34 AM
Voker Bromman used to ride Bonjour! I don't know who the combo is in the first video. Hoping Theo will enlighten us???

The first videoclip is Alexandra Simmons-de Ridder and the late Chacomo.
You can hear the very knowledgable German commentator say, "this is the most wonderfull extended trot i ever saw"

I just throwed this clip in because (like I said before) you can hardly judge a horse or rider by a picture.

Enjoy,

Theo

fiona
Jul. 18, 2006, 06:57 AM
Thanks for the vids Theo, Chacomo was really lovely to watch, shame he got sick.
Balkenhol was awesome!
Lovely horses amazing riding. Thanks

aregard
Jul. 18, 2006, 12:55 PM
The first video (haven't got the second downloaded yet) does bring up a point about photography.

There are points during the trot movement where the front and hind cannon bones are perfectly parallel. And there are points during the movement (mostly when he curls the fore leg up for that expressive knee action) where they are not parallel.

A photo caught in the landing phase would show parallel cannons, but a photo shot in the airborne phase would not. Same horse.

(I have to admit I personally don't like that exaggerated movement. I don't like jeweled browbands either. Plain brown tack, you know? Some of us oldies just can't get used to the new stuff. *sigh*)

Wowwy overstep, though. Wowwy air time.

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 02:07 PM
Wonderful video clips. I find something very interesting, especially after reading a coment elsewhere about the quality of gaits in rollkur horses.

First, look closely at the quality of Goldstern's walk and canter. The walk has that 'too light on the front feet' quality that Bonfire was often criticized for. The clear 'V' of a good quality walk is certainly not apparent, and there are times it looks to be more of an amble than a true walk. Is this created by tension, or did Goldstern not just have a good walk?

Then I look at the canter. There is a hoppiness, rather than the big sweeping canter you would expect to see. Again, maybe the fact that Goldstern wasn't the most gifted of horses, and perhaps had flaws in his gait to start. Or maybe the horse was tense like Bonfire. But should not KB's classical training have rectified that?

Finally I look at the pirouette. The horse does not sit. If you look closely, there are times where the horse does more of a 'spin in the middle', with the haunches swinging out around the middle. On the pirouette that KB rides quite large, only then do we see Goldstern keep his tail in line.

So the fatal flaws that are seen elsewhere and attributed to poorly trained and rollkur'd horses are also quite evident here. Why would this happen with such a wonderful trainer as KB on board? And if it happened with KB on board, then why would it be taken so seriously with other riders aboard, and overlook because KB's on the horse?

It is very confusing to me.

sabryant
Jul. 18, 2006, 02:26 PM
Wonderful video clips. I find something very interesting, especially after reading a coment elsewhere about the quality of gaits in rollkur horses.

First, look closely at the quality of Goldstern's walk and canter. The walk has that 'too light on the front feet' quality that Bonfire was often criticized for. The clear 'V' of a good quality walk is certainly not apparent, and there are times it looks to be more of an amble than a true walk. Is this created by tension, or did Goldstern not just have a good walk?

Then I look at the canter. There is a hoppiness, rather than the big sweeping canter you would expect to see. Again, maybe the fact that Goldstern wasn't the most gifted of horses, and perhaps had flaws in his gait to start. Or maybe the horse was tense like Bonfire. But should not KB's classical training have rectified that?

Finally I look at the pirouette. The horse does not sit. If you look closely, there are times where the horse does more of a 'spin in the middle', with the haunches swinging out around the middle. On the pirouette that KB rides quite large, only then do we see Goldstern keep his tail in line.

So the fatal flaws that are seen elsewhere and attributed to poorly trained and rollkur'd horses are also quite evident here. Why would this happen with such a wonderful trainer as KB on board? And if it happened with KB on board, then why would it be taken so seriously with other riders aboard, and overlook because KB's on the horse?

It is very confusing to me.

Don't feel confused. You are on the right track and on a good/healthy way of educating yourself to some specific types of training...what is and what shouldn't be!

knz66
Jul. 18, 2006, 02:27 PM
I was noticing the same things Patootie - it looked very very very tense....

almost like KB had a cattle prod under that seat a couple times.

Call me "new" but if I had the choice, I'd ride Chacomo

Dalfan
Jul. 18, 2006, 02:41 PM
The parallelogram is evident only between the fore forearm/hind cannon of the diagonal pair at the apex of the "reach". Watch the slo-mo vid and you will see the ANGLES of the forearm/hind cannon are equal WHEN the horses' activity behind is the same in front. If it were the diagonal cannons, which some seem to think it is, the only way to get the fore cannon equal to the hind cannon would be if the fore was straight. The other indicator of equal activity between front and back is the "V" we see is the space between the forelegs and the space between the hindlegs. If the horse is in balance and the activity is equal, these two "V"'s will be equal. Look at some of the photos posted, most will have much more activity in the front, that extravagant movement so prevalent today

These two photos from the site posted by the OP show what I mean very well. The "V" is out of proportion and the hind needs much more activity.
000717912 and 010618114

slc2
Jul. 18, 2006, 02:50 PM
"if i had the choice i'd ride chacomo"

oh dear god. LOL. and you'd die.

these riders give a very deceptive appearance of these horses being easy and this work being easy. these riders fix things before they blow because they themselves have very fast reactions and excellent feel.

these are not easy horses.

the gesture is 'after' the parallel drive as the person said who looked at the slow motions.

that is correct, and shows the freedom of the front. you like it in the flying lead change, don't you, LOL?

that is a sign of the balance of the horse and its correct training.

like all great horses that have gone down in history, goldstern was at times brilliant and at times tense, however, he was a very well schooled horse and tried extremely hard. i would be hard pressed to think of any horse that tried harder. he is definitely the little engine that couldn't say no. he went thru a period toward the end of his career, where he was having problems dealing with sights and sounds in the busy competition grounds.

goldstern, remember, was bought for about 3000 dollars, and was a very poorly considered horse. to do what he did - that's nothing short of a miracle. he had a problem with the piaffe mechanics for quite some time - a problem i was shocked that anyone could fix - ever - to any degree. balkenhol is not god, but he is a brilliant trainer.

what you all are talking about, how horse R (rollkurred horse) is bad, and horse N (non rollkurred horse) is good - that just depends on when you are looking and what sort of axe you are trying to grind, though also, at the same time you say dressage is for all horses, you're criticizing the gaits of specific horses, and trying to make out that the gaits are faulty due to training. you can't say that dressage is for all, and then trash the individual natural movement of a horse.

each horse has good and bad moments in every test, every warmup, every ride. go look at the back page in kyra's book, take two aspirin, and call us in the morning.

knz66
Jul. 18, 2006, 03:06 PM
lol never said I would be "able" to ride it, just said if I had a choice! LOL

knz66
Jul. 18, 2006, 03:18 PM
and I want a button that says"

quoting slc2


"you can't say that dressage is for all, and then trash the individual natural movement of a horse."

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 03:38 PM
i am glad this discussion is happening.... i have thought about this periodically when talk gets to gaits.

so i watched both vids - they are lovely. (tnx theo) and the short trot sequence is interesting... i watched it several times - both regular speed and slo mo. what appeared to me is that is looks like the hind end and the front end are not quite synced up. there are times (as already mentioned) that the legs do syc and times when there are off. i am having a hard time articulating what i mean by unsynced.... kinda like the trot front end was on one time and the hind on another... not off by much but enough that it is visible. (if you watch the goldstern vid right after that you can see the difference in timing) i altho thought that the neck was a tad short. super over track.

i am not sure regarding the out of sync thing why this would happen and what would a rider do to prevent this if they wanted to?

as for goldstern - i agree with slc2 - he was a police horse - and he is a testament for good training. that he came as far as he did is a miracle. and a beacon for all that doesnt have gamillion dollar horses :)

while his gaits are not that of a modern horse his CPs looked dinner plate sized and his extended trot looked for the most part even and engaged. i didnt get that out of sync feeling watching it.

if i got to choose which to ride i would pick goldstern - just because of who he was. and, knowing how difficult it is to ride a very elastic horse i *know* it would be torture to ride the first trot (and wow does that rider make it look easy!!!)

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 03:50 PM
Yes dressage IS for every horse. BUT!

I still don't understand why when Goldstern demonstrates faulty gaits, it's due to his 'difficult nature' or 'difficult background'. When a RK rider has a horse who demonstrates the SAME IDENTICAL fault in the gaits, it's due to bad training?

So great, KB managed to take this peice of equine refuse and turn it into a shining star. But if the gaits are truly the hallmark of good training, where are they? It's nice to say that he's such a great trainer, look what he's done, but has he honestly improved this horses gaits? He he taught this horse to swing through his back, and relax? What of the training scale?

The dinner size CP is one thing, but spinning around the middle is the equivalent to me of running backwards away from the piaffe.


Now, as Goldstern I believe had a fairly short career as a competitive dressage horse, I do wonder whether he was having soundness issues that prevented him from relaxing, showing pure gaits, and showing quality engagement and collection in the pirouette. But even so, the problem as I see it is that in this case because KB is the poster-boy for classical dressage, the same flaws that are deemed fatal elsewhere are being overlooked as trivial.

HXF
Jul. 18, 2006, 03:56 PM
Theo - did Chacomo receive a 10 for that trot?

slc2
Jul. 18, 2006, 04:07 PM
oh for god's sake. goldstern was not a piece of refuse, and he was not a police horse, he was, according to my friend that was at balkenhols and saw him up close, not a particularly fancy looking horse just standing there looking at you. but many aren't. he was purchased by the dept and wound up being a dressage horse instead. balkenhol worked for the dept training horses, spotted him and was interested in working with him.

the information about the horse that i posted, could be posted for just about any horse in top sport. every horse has its strengths and weaknesses. they are horses, not gods. no horse is perfect, no horse is worthless.

pretty soon you guys will be saying klaus unhitched him from a rag wagon or dragged him out of riot gear. pascal, from klimke stable, was also a fairly ordinary mover. by the way, another non rollkured horse who was extremely spooky, i have videos of klimke warming him up at his home barn in his home routine, and he is spooking at every single letter in the ring. never rollkured in his life and at least until the next post from tonja where we find out to our dismay that The Doctor doesn't measure up, we still respect klimke as being a correct, classical trainer.

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 04:14 PM
When I said refuse, it was sarcasm.

But the question still holds.

If purity of gaits is the hallmark, for lack of a better word, of a well trained horse, then what happened to Goldstern?

Training or nature?

slc2
Jul. 18, 2006, 04:23 PM
what the hell do you mean, 'what happened to goldstern'?

my god, how perfect do you think any of them will ever be? what sort of pressure do you put your OWN horses under, and what kind of scrutiny? or your OWN riding?

slc

knz66
Jul. 18, 2006, 04:35 PM
I'm confused.... I dont think anyone said any of the horses were perfect, just the opposite in fact. Judging each horse for its own abitities and traits presented.

besides, wasnt Salinero a jumper before Anky got him?

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 04:57 PM
'what happened to goldstern' is hardly worth having a coronary over. I would certainly hope there's more important things in life than an internet discussion to get worked up over.

What happened to Goldstern means, if the same flaws we see in HIS gaits are also seen in RK horses gaits, and have been attributed over and over to training in RK, then how did Goldstern wind up with the same flaws?

Or is it too hard to admit that those flaws that Bonfire and others were crucified for may not exactly be do entirely to the training?

What type of pressure do I put my own horses under? I wouldn't say I put them under extreme pressure, however, I am extremely tough on myself for my riding. And when I cannot somehow improve a faulty gait, I would first look to see maybe if there's a soundness issue involved that I may be unaware of, and then if there isn't, there is no one to blame except myself.

I don't know what Salinero's original training is, but he was nuts.

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:09 PM
oh for god's sake. goldstern was not a piece of refuse, and he was not a police horse,.

from http://www.balkenhol.org/englisch/mitte_pferde.htm

Farewell to ‘Rabauke’

On Wednesday, 8 May 1985, an extraordinary dressage career ended. ‘Rabauke’, the 17-year-old Hanoverian gelding of the Düsseldorf Mounted Police who, apart from doing his service as a patrol horse or during police operations, was overwhelmingly successful in international dressage competitions, was finally sent to retirement by Dr. Schnoor, the Minister of the Interior of Northrhine-Westphalia.Due to a knee injury ‘Rabauke’ was no longer up to the permanent stress of daily patrol rides nor was he able to face the extreme stress of top dressage sport. Following a proposal of Dr. Lisken, the President of the Düsseldorf Police, Dr. Schnoor gave this merited and internationally famous dressage and police horse to his rider and trainer, senior police officer Klaus Balkenhol. ‘Rabauke’ will spend his retirement near Balkenhol’s home at Hilden and will receive excellent and loving care from the whole Balkenhol family.

Quelle: Presseabteilung Innenministerium NRW





‘Goldstern’ – love at first sight

In 1981 Klaus Balkenhol and his boss Werner Vatter visited (‘only for interest’s sake’) the new arrivals in the group of young ‘apprentice’ hoses in the riding school at Cologne. Both agreed that the horse ‘Goldstern’ had special qualities (‘although he is only a small horse by size he has the potential to become a great one’). So ‘Goldstern’ became a member of the mounted police squadron at Düsseldorf. Despite intensive schooling, the first dressage tests with ‘Goldstern’ were more or less a disaster ‘because of his special temperament which is not easy to handle’. With a lot of patience and step by step ‘Goldstern’ was made familiar with the classical dressage lessons ‘although at that time he also took part in carnival processions and was used for police operations during the home matches of Fortuna Düsseldorf’. The first small trophies which he won in less important, regional horse shows confirmed the supposed qualities of the police horse. But with increasing age and maturity ‘Goldstern’ rewarded the dedication of his rider with more and more success. Thus in 1989 the pair won ‘several Grand-Prix competitions and it was foreseeable that ‘Goldstern’ would become a good horse’. After becoming vice champion in Mannheim in 1990, 1991 should become the year of a great success. The pair won the German Dressage Championships in Münster. With the exception of 1994, when they did not compete, this success could be repeated every year.

<snip>

Despite all his victories in dressage one should never forget that ‘Goldstern’s’ first and foremost ‘job’ is to be a police horse with tasks quite different from those in the dressage arena. "

so we have two police horses doing internation dressage :)

kkj
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:15 PM
Salinero was bred to be a jumper but I don't know if he ever trained/competed as such.

How did Chacomo die? What did Fabenfroh die of? I knew he was having lameness issues for a long time but didn't know he had died. What is the deal with Weltall? It seems all too often the spectacular ones aren't around too long. It is very sad.

Goldstern looks stiff, a bit tense, and not often so submissive to me. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some issues. KB is amazing. ( I think Anky is amazing too) I don't think this particular horse would be near as competitive today.

Good riding can only do so much for the natural talent and gaits of the horse where as bad riding can much easier destroy the great ones.

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:16 PM
I don't know what Salinero's original training is, but he was nuts.

im confused about this... i read in an article here on COTH i think,. that Salinero was a young horse champion and he was purchased after the championships for one of AVGs (or SJs) young clients.... after they saw him in action they decided to purchase him.

i have never read anywhere (altho i dont read everything) , except here on bb's that he was nuts.. can you provide sources or articles i can read?

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:25 PM
Perhaps if you go read some articles about Salinero, you will see several references to how hot he is.

Salinero was purchased for clients somewhere along the line. I think they may have been Americans. But then, for whatever reason, Salinero was sent back to Anky's to be sold, which is when Sjef took notice of this horse.

All this is documented in articles regarding Anky and Salinero. Anky also has her own website, where those other extended trot pictures came from. You might see if that has anything about Salinero's background if you are so interested.

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:29 PM
i didn't question his hotness..... i just said that i hadn't read that he was nuts.

oh and the article i was talking about was written by their groom here on COTH (altho i really think it was sj talking thru her) and i think i also read it in an interview with SJ.

(shrug) its just funny that the info out there is so contradictory.

knz66
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:36 PM
(shrug) its just funny that the info out there is so contradictory.

Whats that saying????? Believe half of what you read........

and I think the "nuts" was referring to how hot he was.


geesh, and for those with sooooo many question - let your fingers do the asking..... http://www.answers.com/topic/keltec-salinero

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:36 PM
How is the information contradictory? In Europe horses can be doing different things before specializing. The horse was bought for a client of Anky's. I guess what you didn't read is the part where the horse was sent to Anky's to be resold, and I believe that was because of his being hot.

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:46 PM
you know, after i posted that reply i *knew* that that line was going to get questioned.

i was not being specific to this one thing - i was making a blanket statement about the quality of information out "there".

i am not that interested to go do research.... i was just pointing out that here on COTH information that could be read as opposite of what you were saying was reported.

if you have first hand info on him great. if not then its all speculation anyway, istn it? we dont know. we only have what has been written which many be mis translated or mis quoted or what have you.

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:50 PM
No one told me the information police was watching.

The information you question is very easy to find for yourself. But I guess that takes the entertainment value of putting others on the chopping block out of the afternoon then, doesn't it?

slc2
Jul. 18, 2006, 05:59 PM
you can actually email anky and ask her questions if it is such a burning issue to know more than what the web site says, which actually is pretty extensive. she is very forthcoming, and very honest. she has said on many occasions in interview after interview that most of her horses are extremely hot and sensitive. this was also the case with many other notables such as nicole uphoff's rembrandt - a hot energetic temperament is very common with top show horses. i think she has gotten many of them because they were not manageable by other people, but so do many trainers get horses that way.

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 06:31 PM
No one told me the information police was watching.

The information you question is very easy to find for yourself. But I guess that takes the entertainment value of putting others on the chopping block out of the afternoon then, doesn't it?


patootie - i am not really questioning you... i am just saying that here on COTH different info was presented and that it is interesting how info can be so contradictory (in general) - i dont really care about salinero that much to spend the time to read up on him. (shrug).... and i am open to believing that the groom was mistaken.. i just find it amusing how something can be presented so many different ways so that people can take away different ideas about the same issue.

i was not trying to be personal towards you at all and i am sorry you took it that way.

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 06:33 PM
you can actually email anky and ask her questions if it is such a burning issue to know more than what the web site says, which actually is pretty extensive. she is very forthcoming, and very honest. she has said on many occasions in interview after interview that most of her horses are extremely hot and sensitive. this was also the case with many other notables such as nicole uphoff's rembrandt - a hot energetic temperament is very common with top show horses. i think she has gotten many of them because they were not manageable by other people, but so do many trainers get horses that way.

slc as mentioned i wasn't making any comments about hot - i commented about him being "crazy" and that here on COTH the info was presented differently.

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 06:40 PM
Crazy=nuts=not manageable=difficult=simply hot.

Is there a reason to split all these hairs?

knz66
Jul. 18, 2006, 06:46 PM
split before or after they turn grey?????

can we go back to the OT? Theo, we need new subjects to hash out here...

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 06:54 PM
ok, so in an earlier post i mentioned that to me it looked like the first horse was out of sync with its front and back kegs - just a tiny bit but when you slow it down it is apparent - its like its front legs are on one cycle and the backs o n a different. (does that make sense?) it might be why the legs are at times even and at times not??

what would that be from and how would a rider correct it?

Patootie
Jul. 18, 2006, 07:04 PM
It looks to me like both the front and hind legs are leaving the ground at the same time, so I am not sure how you are seeing something out of sync. The horse does tend to climb with his front legs, and his knee indeed appears to come up above his shoulder. But that's the way this fellow appears to move. With the diagonal pairs pushing and lifting at the same time, I'm not sure there is what can be done to change that.

I didn't notice it before, but what an impressive seat to be able to sit that much motion!

mbm
Jul. 18, 2006, 07:18 PM
after watching it again, i think what i am seeing is that because of the impressive front leg action the front legs needs to travel faster than the hind legs... to hit the ground at the same time as the hinds - kinda like what happens in piaffe.

egontoast
Jul. 18, 2006, 07:55 PM
For the person who asked about Chacomo and Farbenfroh., Chacomo was put down because of health problems relating to a tumor behind his lungs and Farbenfroh injured himself (broke his neck) while recovering from surgery.

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/germany/2004/farbenfroh_rip.html

Karoline
Jul. 18, 2006, 08:02 PM
Whats that saying????? Believe half of what you read........

and I think the "nuts" was referring to how hot he was.


geesh, and for those with sooooo many question - let your fingers do the asking..... http://www.answers.com/topic/keltec-salinero


His participation in young horse championships before Anky/Sjef even knew of him?

pinecone
Jul. 18, 2006, 08:04 PM
Patootie, have I said yet how much I like having you here? I think you make some excellent general points regarding the flaws some are willing to overlook in "non RK horses" vs. the same/similar flaws for which RK (or even just "modern") riders are crucified for.

As for the original topic, I tend to agree with nero (from wayyyy back on page 1) and it's the same thing I'd alluded to in the locked thread.

kkj
Jul. 18, 2006, 08:08 PM
Thanks Egontoast. Does anyone know the deal with Weltall?

Chacomo is very impressive. I don't know mbm maybe the slow motion makes him look disjointed to you.

Sabine
Jul. 19, 2006, 12:14 AM
I was noticing the same things Patootie - it looked very very very tense....

almost like KB had a cattle prod under that seat a couple times.

Call me "new" but if I had the choice, I'd ride Chacomo


Well- yes and no...have you thought what that would do to your underparts...and your spinal column....:) :)

Sabine
Jul. 19, 2006, 12:17 AM
"if i had the choice i'd ride chacomo"

oh dear god. LOL. and you'd die.

these riders give a very deceptive appearance of these horses being easy and this work being easy. these riders fix things before they blow because they themselves have very fast reactions and excellent feel.

these are not easy horses.

the gesture is 'after' the parallel drive as the person said who looked at the slow motions.

that is correct, and shows the freedom of the front. you like it in the flying lead change, don't you, LOL?

that is a sign of the balance of the horse and its correct training.

like all great horses that have gone down in history, goldstern was at times brilliant and at times tense, however, he was a very well schooled horse and tried extremely hard. i would be hard pressed to think of any horse that tried harder. he is definitely the little engine that couldn't say no. he went thru a period toward the end of his career, where he was having problems dealing with sights and sounds in the busy competition grounds.

goldstern, remember, was bought for about 3000 dollars, and was a very poorly considered horse. to do what he did - that's nothing short of a miracle. he had a problem with the piaffe mechanics for quite some time - a problem i was shocked that anyone could fix - ever - to any degree. balkenhol is not god, but he is a brilliant trainer.

what you all are talking about, how horse R (rollkurred horse) is bad, and horse N (non rollkurred horse) is good - that just depends on when you are looking and what sort of axe you are trying to grind, though also, at the same time you say dressage is for all horses, you're criticizing the gaits of specific horses, and trying to make out that the gaits are faulty due to training. you can't say that dressage is for all, and then trash the individual natural movement of a horse.

each horse has good and bad moments in every test, every warmup, every ride. go look at the back page in kyra's book, take two aspirin, and call us in the morning.


Now- SLC - that was one of your more memorable posts...remind me how old you are- you sure sound like a wise old owl...and how right on the spot you are with your comments...you go girl!!

Sabine
Jul. 19, 2006, 12:43 AM
Patootie, have I said yet how much I like having you here? I think you make some excellent general points regarding the flaws some are willing to overlook in "non RK horses" vs. the same/similar flaws for which RK (or even just "modern") riders are crucified for.

As for the original topic, I tend to agree with nero (from wayyyy back on page 1) and it's the same thing I'd alluded to in the locked thread.


ditto- ditto...LOL!
sorry I work all day and always come late to the good stuff!!

slc2
Jul. 19, 2006, 06:38 AM
Martin is also very forthcoming about Weltall. I've never seen anyone with so much faith and so much patience for a horse as Weltall. He adores that horse.

Martin is hysterically funny. His sense of humor and patience is incredible. He used to have Durgo, and in one interview he talked about how he for years wanted a horse he could love, and groom and talk to and just take ahold of his head and hug - and THEN he got Durgo, LOL!

Durgo, if anyone remembers, was easily the grouchiest animal that ever was born. Any time he was asked to make an effor he did, but it was with the most incredible expression - he always reminded me of Ernest Borgnine in The Poseiden Adventure. He was horrible in his stall, too, kicked, bit, and had since he was a colt. Martin used to ride him around and just get this little smile on his face like oh God, why is this beast doing this to me, LOL. Durgo, however, was brilliant, and unbelievably powerful horse. For Martin to go from a horse like him to Weltall - the guy really is incredible.

Martin more than anyone I have ever seen - he's a very small fellow, and quite slight - is a rider who relies on his technique instead of strength. He is exceedingly patient, both with horses and students. He's realistic, too, and his videos are a wonderful look at what the riding progress really is like.

Martin is incredible. He believes in turnout. ALL his horses go out. He purchased a farm with plenty of acreage, I think in S. Germany, the place is absolutely idyllic. Even the competition horses go out. ALOT.

So Pick Pick Pick Pick on Weltall if it makes you feel clever and superior, you people who write in here to ask about how to ride circles, how to get your stirrups even and how to sit the trot. He is still, and always will be, one of the great horses.

Weltall has always been a very, very sensitive horse that tries very, very hard. In the spring before Athens he was in a horrible transportation wreck, and his normally sensitive nerves were frayed beyond belief. It took several months for him to recover his mind. He went to the Athens games in the fall, and had to perform right next to the flapping flags - noises just like what he heard during the accident.

I have never, ever in my life, seen such a performance as Weltall gave on that day. He was terrified, and he still tried his heart out for Martin. I have never seen ANYONE so patient with a horse, and so skilled, as Martin on that day. Of course people who don't realize what is going on will criticize him, but Martin I feel made the right choice for Weltall. After that ride he seemed to know he could trust Martin and perform in any situation. Most people who have shown and trained horses know that sometimes, for the training of the horse, you have to go and do something like that, just so the horse knows he is safe. Martin could have retired the class after the first little bobble.

At subsequent shows, he showed his incredible talent and desire to perform fo rthe rider. The experience made him stronger. He had more confidence and assurance. You people who criticize Martin or that horse - you guys make me sick. I actually was one of the very large group that sent a card to Martin after the Olympics and we all got a personal reply -

'I will always believe in Weltall, he is the best'.

kkj
Jul. 19, 2006, 07:25 AM
slc2, aren't I the only one who has asked about Weltall? I am not picking on him or Martin. I saw him at the World Cup in Vegas and loved the pair. I really love that horse and think Martin does an incredible job with him. I am just wondering what is going on with them now because I haven't heard about him lately. If I google him I don't get any new info. Do you know if he retired or got hurt or is he still out there competing? I just was hoping that he would continue to compete and work out that tension because he is so incredible then I think he would be unbeatable.

Gosh there is so much tension on this board that sometimes you ask an honest question and people assume you are passing judgement or have an agenda. I just like the horse and admire the rider and want to know why I haven't heard about them lately.

kkj
Jul. 19, 2006, 07:46 AM
slc2 after reading your post again I am like, "man that was kind of offensive." I assume "you people" is me because I am the one who keeps asking about Weltall on this thread. I don't however ever ask or comment on how to ride a circle, sit the trot or get my stirrups. I pretty much avoid threads telling people how to ride unless it is a kid on the HJ board asking for a critique. As I was an assistant trainer for a big HJ trainer I feel qualified to give a little advice there. I have also commented on people switching from HJ to Dressage as I can relate and threads about basic horsemanship like tying your horse or turnout or cross training. If by "you people" you were addressing me, I think it is off base.

Also I get Horse International (expensive but worth it) and I think there was an article in there a way back that stated Anky got Salinero after he proved to be too hot for the customer he was purchased for. There was also an article which read that Martin kept Weltall because he was too hot to sell to anyone else. These are the best riders in the world. Some of the best horses in the sport can only be ridden by the best riders. Weltall and Salinero case in point.

nero
Jul. 19, 2006, 08:50 AM
Patootie, have I said yet how much I like having you here? I think you make some excellent general points regarding the flaws some are willing to overlook in "non RK horses" vs. the same/similar flaws for which RK (or even just "modern") riders are crucified for.

As for the original topic, I tend to agree with nero (from wayyyy back on page 1) and it's the same thing I'd alluded to in the locked thread. Thanks pinecone, not feeling as ridiculous now. Cheers ;-) I kinda checked out of the thread, it took on its own life entirely, that's fine, but bears little resemblance to the thread I started and no real answers to the original question, just an excuse for a minority to pick apart amazing animals and riders - oh dear.

nero
Jul. 19, 2006, 08:53 AM
slc2, aren't I the only one who has asked about Weltall? I am not picking on him or Martin. I saw him at the World Cup in Vegas and loved the pair. I really love that horse and think Martin does an incredible job with him. I am just wondering what is going on with them now because I haven't heard about him lately. If I google him I don't get any new info. Do you know if he retired or got hurt or is he still out there competing? I just was hoping that he would continue to compete and work out that tension because he is so incredible then I think he would be unbeatable.

Gosh there is so much tension on this board that sometimes you ask an honest question and people assume you are passing judgement or have an agenda. I just like the horse and admire the rider and want to know why I haven't heard about them lately.
I saw a score for Weltall in the last couple of weeks at a recent show, he came about mid field I think and scored in high 60's. A way away from his best, unfortunately, so he's still around, just not doing as well as he used to.

slc2
Jul. 19, 2006, 09:04 AM
egon, i would rate you as the most full of self here. no one holds a candle to you on that. you're far more full of self than any of the people you criticize for same.

martin and i aren't buds. i made that clear, i said i was among a large group who sent him a card. you can't get much more non-buds than that. the information i wrote about martin is all very public, and there for anyone who is capable of reading. there was a huge write up of him and a host of other riders in a huge book on competitive riding, dozens of articles and interviews in the internet over the years - try reading from time to time.

flip flops on longeing, turnout? you're trying to create a problem where there is none. i haven't done flip flops, though i have worked with different people who have slightly different philosophies on longeing.

how about writing about both sides of the issues? that's a flip flop? no. that's being able to see both sides.

on longeing, i maintain - most people need to have their longe lines burned. they longe horses to death, often with their head tied down, or in with some stupid appliance, and convince themselves that's a high level of dressage, or they longe the horse til it's dead tired because they're afraid. they longe and longe and longe young horses while teaching them nothing, or teaching them a wrong balance. i've also seen people use it effectively. the person i work with who uses longing most effectively, though, says same - most people grossly misuse it.

DocHF
Jul. 19, 2006, 09:34 AM
when both you, egontoast and slc2 get into it, please take it to PM. its boring the rest of us who normally enjoy each of you. by yourselves. I suggest you each put each other on "ignore". And I actually like both of you!

I have nothing to add about extended trot, if thats what this thread is about.

As for Weltall, his grandfather World Cup was the "action trotter" and lead stallion at the Warendorf Akademie for many years and a notoriously difficult ride who put many riders off, but made up for it in his brilliance, as has his son Weltmeyer and many of their get, who are generally uphill built and light in front.

I ride a World Cup son who again is not an easy ride and has put many professionals out of the saddle during a disagreement. I was gratified to talk at length with the quadrille riders of the Akademie while World Cup was still their lead stallion and learn that it wasn't just me who had some trouble adapting to this sensitive line. I was also able to watch the quadrille and many of the riders practice at the Akademie and I did not see rollkur in use there, however, this was nearly 8 year ago now and things do change.
And i do not know any of them well enough except Hannes and Stephan, to call them by their first names...

kkj
Jul. 19, 2006, 09:45 AM
Thanks Nero. That is all the info I wanted. When I saw the write up on possible European riders in the WEF and Martin and Weltall weren't there, I wondered why. They keep talking about the great young German horses and I was wondering what about Weltall.

slc and egontoast I enjoy both of your post as well.

beejoux
Jul. 19, 2006, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinecone

Patootie, have I said yet how much I like having you here? I think you make some excellent general points regarding the flaws some are willing to overlook in "non RK horses" vs. the same/similar flaws for which RK (or even just "modern") riders are crucified for.

As for the original topic, I tend to agree with nero (from wayyyy back on page 1) and it's the same thing I'd alluded to in the locked thread.



ditto- ditto...LOL!
sorry I work all day and always come late to the good stuff!!

Since no one else has bothered to make an answer to this, I guess I'll stick my neck out. The answer is as follows:

1. The horse is a quadraped. There are only so many ways it can express losses of balance. Thus, the mistakes you see are similar and the same when the horse loses its balance in the Dressage arena.

2. The difference is what happens in between the mistakes, and the amount of space between the mistakes. You can watch the more traditionally trained horse make balance corrections. You can see the more traditionally trained horse show lowered haunches and weight-carrying hindquarters (engagement). You can get a sense of lightness and ease from carefully watching the riders' body language and the horses' responses. You can SEE the effects of the half-halts. Those things you can see consistently in between the brief losses of balance and mistakes.

In the horse trained LDR, or even just out of balance consistently, you rarely see the correction of balance, the bearing of weight on the haunches, the lightness and responsiveness to the rider's aids. You may see more "activity" but it's frenetic and reactive, not sweeping and powerful. You may even see "steady" balance in that the lack of balance has been so ingrained in the horse that he does not show the momentary losses so much because he never had the engagement and collection to begin with. You can CONSISTENTLY see the mistakes in the overall picture, not simply as brief, momentary losses of balance, but a compromised balance, period.

Does that help?

slc2
Jul. 19, 2006, 12:34 PM
hey i'd love it if egon would take it to pm.

does post help? only if one agrees, lol. and i don't.

explanations that are full of opinion and conjecture only 'help' if one has the same opinion.

pinecone
Jul. 19, 2006, 12:59 PM
Let's see, more inaccurate generalizations. Nope beejoux, not helpful. Sorry.

Patootie
Jul. 19, 2006, 01:01 PM
hey i'd love it if egon would take it to pm.

does post help? only if one agrees, lol. and i don't.

explanations that are full of opinion and conjecture only 'help' if one has the same opinion.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!

Hey who died and made slc king of the manure pile? Why can't someone have an opinion? And if their wrong, so what? We're not talking life or death here. This is the internet, and no one's getting paid to be here either. We're philosophizing, if that's a word, about the extended trot and what goes right or wrong. Beejoux just wrote a really nice post that kind of made me think, and then BLAMMO, like a dog with a bone, back to the pissing contest.

So I guess the rule here is either you get interrogated to death and asked to provide documentation for any comment you might make, or you get chastised for not knowing anything at all and there for having no right to an opinion.

Hmmmmmmmm.....

knz66
Jul. 19, 2006, 01:07 PM
So I guess the rule here is either you get interrogated to death and asked to provide documentation for any comment you might make, or you get chastised for not knowing anything at all and there for having no right to an opinion.

Hmmmmmmmm.....


its taken you how long to realize this?

Your post didnt help me much either Bee....

Patootie
Jul. 19, 2006, 01:08 PM
OK, just so ESG and others can have another opportunity to call me ridiculous!! I thought I'd ask a question (hopefully the response will be a little more civil!). I've been looking at pics of Weltall and Farbenfroh, probably the two most expressive horses from recent years on the shoulder reach department to see if it is possible for a horse to be engaged behind AND still exhibit more reach and scope in front. If you go to www.arnd.nl and search the database for Farbenfroh and Weltall I think you will see examples of where this does happen. Two well engaged horses who both have substantial overtrack but still have more reach in front than behind. Particulalry Farbenfroh, I just do not see how it would be physically possible for the horse to parallel canons, but I still think he is engaged. In particualr image numbers 020701480, 010813154, 000717912 and 010618114 for Farbenfroh. Just go to link, click on search database and type his name into the search field.

I'd prefer not to be called ridiculous if that's possible for suggesting this, just trying to train my eye, I'm no dummie, but maybe you'll disagree and I can have my incorrectness explained! ;-)

OK, then how's this if beejoux was to generalized.

NO! hahaha!

If the shoulder escapes that much that you lose the front end, the backs become open which means throughness is lost. When the horse is properly through, balanced, and engaged the entire back becomes one piece that works together, and the front leg would still only read so far.

Now if you look at the great video horsedances/Theo contributed, the horse really isn't escaping with his front legs, but he does lift his knees quite high, to the point there the forearm is actually angled backwards a bit. But if you look closely, the hind feet and front feet on the diagonal pairs leave the ground and hit the ground pretty much simultaneously. DAP is NOT readily apparent even in slow motion, which usually when you play the 'big horses' in slow motion, you might see more than this. I find this very interesting given this horses front end.

Now call me easily amused!

Are there still little misteps in balance, maybe. But to have that much power coming through and that connected, I think to expect perfect balance as well, especially in the competition arena, is a bit of a fable.

Karoline
Jul. 19, 2006, 01:38 PM
Martin is also very forthcoming about Weltall. I've never seen anyone with so much faith and so much patience for a horse as Weltall. He adores that horse.

Martin is hysterically funny. His sense of humor and patience is incredible. He used to have Durgo, and in one interview he talked about how he for years wanted a horse he could love, and groom and talk to and just take ahold of his head and hug - and THEN he got Durgo, LOL!

Durgo, if anyone remembers, was easily the grouchiest animal that ever was born. Any time he was asked to make an effor he did, but it was with the most incredible expression - he always reminded me of Ernest Borgnine in The Poseiden Adventure. He was horrible in his stall, too, kicked, bit, and had since he was a colt. Martin used to ride him around and just get this little smile on his face like oh God, why is this beast doing this to me, LOL. Durgo, however, was brilliant, and unbelievably powerful horse. For Martin to go from a horse like him to Weltall - the guy really is incredible.

Martin more than anyone I have ever seen - he's a very small fellow, and quite slight - is a rider who relies on his technique instead of strength. He is exceedingly patient, both with horses and students. He's realistic, too, and his videos are a wonderful look at what the riding progress really is like.

Martin is incredible. He believes in turnout. ALL his horses go out. He purchased a farm with plenty of acreage, I think in S. Germany, the place is absolutely idyllic. Even the competition horses go out. ALOT.

So Pick Pick Pick Pick on Weltall if it makes you feel clever and superior, you people who write in here to ask about how to ride circles, how to get your stirrups even and how to sit the trot. He is still, and always will be, one of the great horses.

Weltall has always been a very, very sensitive horse that tries very, very hard. In the spring before Athens he was in a horrible transportation wreck, and his normally sensitive nerves were frayed beyond belief. It took several months for him to recover his mind. He went to the Athens games in the fall, and had to perform right next to the flapping flags - noises just like what he heard during the accident.

I have never, ever in my life, seen such a performance as Weltall gave on that day. He was terrified, and he still tried his heart out for Martin. I have never seen ANYONE so patient with a horse, and so skilled, as Martin on that day. Of course people who don't realize what is going on will criticize him, but Martin I feel made the right choice for Weltall. After that ride he seemed to know he could trust Martin and perform in any situation. Most people who have shown and trained horses know that sometimes, for the training of the horse, you have to go and do something like that, just so the horse knows he is safe. Martin could have retired the class after the first little bobble.

At subsequent shows, he showed his incredible talent and desire to perform fo rthe rider. The experience made him stronger. He had more confidence and assurance. You people who criticize Martin or that horse - you guys make me sick. I actually was one of the very large group that sent a card to Martin after the Olympics and we all got a personal reply -

'I will always believe in Weltall, he is the best'.

This was a beautiful post, I wish you wrote many such vignettes about the horses you like. I would collect them, as I will this one.

slc2
Jul. 19, 2006, 01:47 PM
i love every horse i look at, in one way or another, LOL!

aregard
Jul. 19, 2006, 01:50 PM
Gosh there is so much tension on this board that sometimes you ask an honest question and people assume you are passing judgement or have an agenda.

Let me just quote that and let it stand in all its glory. Some people can't see a simple question mark without imagining boogie men under the bed.

Patootie
Jul. 19, 2006, 01:53 PM
Let me just quote that and let it stand in all it's glory. Some people can't see a simple question mark without imagining boogie men under the bed.

I think there's some really good medications for that. Maybe if we could find it, we could get back to the original question!

beejoux
Jul. 19, 2006, 03:29 PM
Beejoux just wrote a really nice post that kind of made me think,
Then I am indeed complimented.


and then BLAMMO, like a dog with a bone, back to the pissing contest.
Don't let the pissers get you down or stop you from exploring all the possible explanations for what you see, if you are so inclined. I am an unknown quantity to the pack dogs. They have to challenge me to see where my weaknesses are... :lol: That doesn't mean I have to respond to their challenge. Oh well...;)

And, my sincere appreciation to Theo for coming forward and sharing his lovely videos with us again.

Back to the topic...


Are there still little misteps in balance, maybe. But to have that much power coming through and that connected, I think to expect perfect balance as well, especially in the competition arena, is a bit of a fable.
I agree with this, in principle. When one is riding to the limit, no matter how perfected the horse's balance is in training, even the tiniest rider mis-timing or miscommunication, or the tiniest overly-keen effort by the horse can push the horse beyond its ability to sustain the balance. No one has perfect concentration 100% of the time. Mistakes happen. It is what we ride our whole lives to acheive -- that perfect balance between caution and chaos. However, there are some who have come closer than others, and those are the ones that inspire generations to come to keep striving for the impossible with enthusiasm.

Having watched a documentary over the weekend about the pilots of the Blue Angels, it struck me when every single one of them said "you never have that perfect flight, but every day you get in the airplane and keep trying for it" how similar that sort of precision flying must be to Dressage. (warning: subjective opinion to follow) When we stop seeking that perfection, we lose something special from the sport, imho.

Now I have been way more long-winded than I had intended. My apologies. Back to your regular programming...

egontoast
Jul. 19, 2006, 04:30 PM
hey i'd love it if egon would take it to pm.


Interesting that you felt the need to post that after I deleted my posts in deference to what DOc HF posted. No, I will not enter a private war with someone that I think is an Ass. I will say so on the board or not at all.

mbm
Jul. 19, 2006, 10:57 PM
beejoux - lovely post. very though provoking and your post articulates what i *feel* when i watch various horses.

thanks again.

Horsedances
Jul. 20, 2006, 08:52 AM
www.horsedances.net/Weltall11-05.wmv (http://www.horsedances.net/Weltall11-05.wmv)

Enjoy,

Theo

canyonoak
Jul. 20, 2006, 11:11 AM
I just read on www.horseweb.de that Weltall is lame and is out of contention for a spot on the WEG team.

phooey.

what a great horse.

i can only hope he returns to his original form...but maybe this explains his incosistent placings of late.

I am quite sure he has earned a good rest and recovery period.

knz66
Jul. 20, 2006, 11:33 AM
Thank you Theo! What a lovely animal! The hang time on those extended trots were just amazing! He is so expressive with his ears, you can almost see what he is thinking.

Drat, what terrible news!

kkj
Jul. 20, 2006, 12:39 PM
Thanks for the video Theo. I love watching Martin and Weltall. I hope he makes a quick and complete recovery.

stolensilver
Jul. 20, 2006, 03:25 PM
What a shame about Weltall. He's an exceptional horse.

Is it me or does it seem to be a recurring theme that the very extravagant movers (Farbenfroh and Weltall spring straight to mind) have more of a tendency to become unsound than other GP horses? Or is it just that they are so outstanding their presence is missed more than other horses?

kkj
Jul. 20, 2006, 04:40 PM
Yeah Stolensilver I wonder about that too. Do we just notice because we miss them or are the really extravegant ones more prone to injury. Maybe because of the effort of their motion or range of motion or who knows. Any ideas? I sure love watching those extravengant ones in any case.

Horsedances
Jul. 20, 2006, 05:45 PM
Yeah Stolensilver I wonder about that too. Do we just notice because we miss them or are the really extravegant ones more prone to injury. Maybe because of the effort of their motion or range of motion or who knows. Any ideas? I sure love watching those extravengant ones in any case.

I really don't think that it has anything to do with the extravagant movers, nor training It happens at all classes, all levels, and with all kind of horses. My own experience is that these kind of injuries mostly come from the time that the horse are in the greenfields, running free.

Theo

eqipoize
Jul. 20, 2006, 05:59 PM
As always Theo - thanks for the video link. I can appreciate this horse SO much more now. When was this preformance? Before or after the hauling accident? I keep wondering if there was a small sprain in the back that made this horse become SO tense at the Olympica - it is not an impossibility. And it could take months or even years for the misalignment to progress until you had noticable symptoms. I am not doubting the care this horse got, just that some things are So subtle, and he looks like a real tryer - which will cover up even more! Very Very nice extended trot. Wish there were more like it!

egontoast
Jul. 20, 2006, 06:01 PM
Yeah, it's only because we don't hear about the injuries to the less high profile horses.

nero
Jul. 20, 2006, 07:51 PM
Of all the great dressage horses I've ever seen, to my mind Weltall is the most naturally gifted of all. He is, minus the tension, the ultimate dressage machine. His canter, often criticised, is actually a very strong gait, as evidenced in his lovely changes and lengthen canter, he's just so excitable - but that endears him to me anyway - and LOVE, LOVE, LOVE those ears. And if he does not have the best bar none p and p tour and ext trot of any horse in the world, I'll eat my hat.

I adore that animal, I hope he comes back.

mbm
Jul. 20, 2006, 08:34 PM
oh, weltall is lovely. love that trot. actually, i loved it all.

i agree that this may be the most gifted dressage horse around.

i hope he recovers.

Sabine
Jul. 20, 2006, 08:40 PM
it must be a special day and a special astrological setting that we can all agree!! GROUP HUG and Jingles for WeltAll.

nero
Jul. 20, 2006, 08:46 PM
it must be a special day and a special astrological setting that we can all agree!! GROUP HUG and Jingles for WeltAll. Yup, I'm in a state of shock!! ;-)

sabryant
Jul. 20, 2006, 09:15 PM
Since no one else has bothered to make an answer to this, I guess I'll stick my neck out. The answer is as follows:

1. The horse is a quadraped. There are only so many ways it can express losses of balance. Thus, the mistakes you see are similar and the same when the horse loses its balance in the Dressage arena.

2. The difference is what happens in between the mistakes, and the amount of space between the mistakes. You can watch the more traditionally trained horse make balance corrections. You can see the more traditionally trained horse show lowered haunches and weight-carrying hindquarters (engagement). You can get a sense of lightness and ease from carefully watching the riders' body language and the horses' responses. You can SEE the effects of the half-halts. Those things you can see consistently in between the brief losses of balance and mistakes.

In the horse trained LDR, or even just out of balance consistently, you rarely see the correction of balance, the bearing of weight on the haunches, the lightness and responsiveness to the rider's aids. You may see more "activity" but it's frenetic and reactive, not sweeping and powerful. You may even see "steady" balance in that the lack of balance has been so ingrained in the horse that he does not show the momentary losses so much because he never had the engagement and collection to begin with. You can CONSISTENTLY see the mistakes in the overall picture, not simply as brief, momentary losses of balance, but a compromised balance, period.

Does that help?


Maybe in a couple of years, horses will evolve to equus erectus. Surely, then, we will be able to see the balance loss in the LDR trained horses and the amount of space between the mistakes!

All teasing aside, I don't see the traditionally trained horses lower their haunches or the bearing of weigtht on the huanches anymore than the LDR horses. That is why I lean toward the difference being the style of horse and the complications therein.

sabryant
Jul. 20, 2006, 09:20 PM
ooops....didn't mean to bust up the positive momentum!

nero
Jul. 20, 2006, 09:22 PM
Maybe in a couple of years, horses will evolve to equus erectus. Surely, then, we will be able to see the balance loss in the LDR trained horses and the amount of space between the mistakes!

All teasing aside, I don't see the traditionally trained horses lower their haunches or the bearing of weigtht on the huanches anymore than the LDR horses. That is why I lean toward the difference being the style of horse and the complications therein. Agreed. I just find it strange that few people who criticise LDR cannot concede that each horse is different, like dancers, who might all be trained in the same manner, different dancers will have different strengths and weakness, doesn't mean the training is flawed.

Another observation, if Anky had ridden the exact same test as KB on Goldstern she would be crucified for having ruined a horse through dodgy training (she gets slammed for much less on her own horses all the time), instead KB is heralded a saint and genius for working with a modest horse - and getting the result that if Anky got she'd be criticised harshly - oh please!!!!!

nero
Jul. 20, 2006, 09:23 PM
ooops....didn't mean to bust up the positive momentum! LOL!!! And you DID, see my post above, harmony doesn't last long round here!!!

sabryant
Jul. 20, 2006, 09:32 PM
LOL!!! And you DID, see my post above, harmony doesn't last long round here!!!


LoL back..sorry 'bout that! We'll just have to let that harmony issure be decided in the arena I guess. My vote goes to Anky!

pinecone
Jul. 20, 2006, 09:48 PM
Another observation, if Anky had ridden the exact same test as KB on Goldstern she would be crucified for having ruined a horse through dodgy training (she gets slammed for much less on her own horses all the time), instead KB is heralded a saint and genius for working with a modest horse - and getting the result that if Anky got she'd be criticised harshly - oh please!!!!!

I was thinking this exact same thing but biting my tongue, not knowing what wrath might come down on the person bold enough to say something so
true.

There really is a double standard when analysing topriders, which is unfair and hinders honest discussions as well.

In fact, what I enjoyed the most from watching the videos was the reminder that nobody is perfect, but the dressage can still be beatiful overall even with the bobbles.

sabryant
Jul. 20, 2006, 11:02 PM
I agreed Pinecone! Nice post!

nero
Jul. 20, 2006, 11:24 PM
In fact, what I enjoyed the most from watching the videos was the reminder that nobody is perfect, but the dressage can still be beatiful overall even with the bobbles. Completely true, KB and Goldstern were obviously fantastic, I don't want ayone to think I was dissing them.

Sabine
Jul. 20, 2006, 11:57 PM
Replying to Nero and SAB- I think what I have noticed- riding dressage for a long time now- in Germany (classical) and then going thru many iterations of rethinking, observing, trying this and that, clinicing with Racinet- etc...I have finally come to my personal conclusion- that really good riding is less in where the neck is than mostly in how you can truly get the horse to feel you and you feel the horse,...in other words *and I know I suck at explaining* if you let the horse come to you- you can guide it- and I think the reason why Anky is phenomenal is not because she rides Rollkur- even though she does it- but so do many others do it too and less succesful...it is because she really has the utmost feel and ability to react- and I think she really has an incredibly tuned body- this does not mean that because she is skinny she is better- NOOO- big no- it's because she seems to have an extra layer of nerves around herself - that can sense just a split second before what will happen next and react perfectly- in correct measure and in an ASSURING WAY to the horse...

I really believe that this is the recipe of her success, and more than honing in on her RK riding (which I don't practice- but I am very fond of deep...:) I believe that this is what gives her continuing stellar performances, because her horse TRUSTS her and I think this what we need to shoot for!!

nero
Jul. 21, 2006, 12:32 AM
Replying to Nero and SAB- I think what I have noticed- riding dressage for a long time now- in Germany (classical) and then going thru many iterations of rethinking, observing, trying this and that, clinicing with Racinet- etc...I have finally come to my personal conclusion- that really good riding is less in where the neck is than mostly in how you can truly get the horse to feel you and you feel the horse,...in other words *and I know I suck at explaining* if you let the horse come to you- you can guide it- and I think the reason why Anky is phenomenal is not because she rides Rollkur- even though she does it- but so do many others do it too and less succesful...it is because she really has the utmost feel and ability to react- and I think she really has an incredibly tuned body- this does not mean that because she is skinny she is better- NOOO- big no- it's because she seems to have an extra layer of nerves around herself - that can sense just a split second before what will happen next and react perfectly- in correct measure and in an ASSURING WAY to the horse...

I really believe that this is the recipe of her success, and more than honing in on her RK riding (which I don't practice- but I am very fond of deep...:) I believe that this is what gives her continuing stellar performances, because her horse TRUSTS her and I think this what we need to shoot for!! Yes Sabine, I agree, when observing her ride at a recent clinic I got the sense that she is a incredibly instinctive rider and she seems to know what the horse will do before the horse does, its eerie in a good way watching her, and she can do amazing things to a horse she's just gotten on, or even watching from the ground. She just KNOWS horses.

Horsedances
Jul. 21, 2006, 07:54 AM
When you listen to the commentator you will hear that he is saying that Goldstern is a very spooky horse in these kinds of environment.

This sounds very strange to me because he was a former police-horse.:cool:

Theo

sabryant
Jul. 21, 2006, 08:55 AM
Horsedances

We didn't miss a it. At least, some of us didn't. Just trying to keep the harmony here. Ha!

sabryant
Jul. 21, 2006, 08:57 AM
Great post SAb and Nero. Nero you are right on! I think Anky can feel the losses of balance when they happen in the hind end and can, immediately, correct them before they reach the wither or face. That is great timing and great riding! LDR or no LDR.