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View Full Version : CDI Lingen - results disprove theory



nero
Jul. 9, 2006, 08:39 PM
I think if anyone cares to look at the results from the weekend competition it might just put a fly in the ointment for those who argue that Anky always wins just because she's Anky - she did OK on her two horses but certainly it looks like they were scoring the RIDE not the name of the rider. I think judging is probably fairer and more accurate than many here and on that other silly board think!!!!

Maybe, just maybe, her number one horse wins because he IS the best horse NOT because she gets Anky-points!!!!!! No, that would just be too logical wouldn't it?! ;-)

merrygoround
Jul. 9, 2006, 08:47 PM
Huffy Puffy!!!!!

Anky is a great rider, training under a man who is exceedingly good. Her horses are excellent. She chooses well.

I'm sure she is as gracious in not winning as in winning.

All that said.THERE IS a halo effect. Where judges see what they expect to see. They are, sad to say, all too human. Sometimes it takes a real jolt to wake them up. Cie le vie!!!!!!!!!!

nero
Jul. 9, 2006, 08:50 PM
Huffy Puffy!!!!!

Anky is a great rider, training under a man who is exceedingly good. Her horses are excellent. She chooses well.

I'm sure she is as gracious in not winning as in winning.

All that said.THERE IS a halo effect. Where judges see what they expect to see. They are, sad to say, all too human. Sometimes it takes a real jolt to wake them up. Cie le vie!!!!!!!!!!

Not huffy at all.

And I never said Anky would be unhappy or ungracious.

Stop projecting!!!

sabryant
Jul. 9, 2006, 08:55 PM
thanks for the info Nero. Looks to me like the Danes are making up a good team to take over the Bronze at WEG's.

mbm
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:12 PM
hey, i am one of the "theory" folks.... and i got the idea not from my little head, but from various books of some very well known people.

ie i have read from the judges themselves that this happens - so why try to pretend it doesnt??

2Dogs
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:23 PM
Anky is superb - merrygoround, that guy with her - pffffft! He didn't frigging ride a horse till he was 30, and barely then - don't give him any credit except for good marketing skills!

nero
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:27 PM
hey, i am one of the "theory" folks.... and i got the idea not from my little head, but from various books of some very well known people.

ie i have read from the judges themselves that this happens - so why try to pretend it doesnt??

Yeah, that's right, don't let what actually happens, as evidenced by the weekend (that Anky does't always win) and a logical argument which looks at the fact that Salinero is the best horse going around at the moment, get in the way of your theory!!

mbm
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:29 PM
Yeah, that's right, don't let what actually happens, as evidenced by the weekend (that Anky does't always win) and a logical argument which looks at the fact that Salinero is the best horse going around at the moment, get in the way of your theory!!


i was making a general comment about the "theory" you were ridiculing. i did not extrapolate that to the scores you posted.

nero
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:30 PM
Anky is superb - merrygoround, that guy with her - pffffft! He didn't frigging ride a horse till he was 30, and barely then - don't give him any credit except for good marketing skills!


What's the go with the " someone didn't start riding as an embryo and therefore can't have an opinion, or know anything aboyut horses" theory????? How dumb. Where is it written that you must ride as a two year old in order to have cred as a trainer/rider????? The guy rode for his country!!! Have you? I would have thought if aything this gives him MORE credibility than someone who took all their life to get there, clearly the guy has natural talent and worked his butt off the learn to ride so well in comparitively such little time. Props to Sjef for this achievement regardless of what you think of his methods! How close minded of you.

nero
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:40 PM
i was making a general comment about the "theory" you were ridiculing. i did not extrapolate that to the scores you posted.

sorry what thread are you reading??? I didn't post any scores.

And I was making a general comment about your 'theory' and how it is flawed as evidenced by results this weekend, so, as usual, I have no idea what you are talking about!

mbm
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:46 PM
sorry what thread are you reading??? I didn't post any scores.

And I was making a general comment about your 'theory' and how it is flawed as evidenced by results this weekend, so, as usual, I have no idea what you are talking about!

hey, as i said it isnt *my* theory. i was jsut repeating what i read from some of the TOP people in the sport.

argue with them.

eqipoize
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:23 PM
Or how about THIS theory - there has been SO much Hullaballou about Anky and her scores, that the judges have had to take off their rose colored glasses and start scoring more according to the rule book. Honestly - did you SEE the olympics??? Did you really think the GP ride deserved the score it got? Really?? I got the feeling that they couldn't imagine the medal round without her, and they 'forgave' a young horse for glaring mistakes and huge tension issues, and they scored generously. Then she Did come on strong in the freestyle, which is always her strong point. But really, the GP ride? And there have been some recent 'World Record Scores' that were NOT that extrordinary - GOOD rides, Yes, and maybe even significantly better than what they have done in the past, but 82%?? And 87 for the Freestyle a while back???

So, really, do you feel Such a need to defend Anky? Do you really Feel SO VERY RIGHT?

amazing.

nero
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:49 PM
hey, as i said it isnt *my* theory. i was jsut repeating what i read from some of the TOP people in the sport.

argue with them.

Um, maybe you need to start coming up with your own theories from your own brain and understanding of the sport instead of just repeating what others say!!! Just a thought!

and eqipoize....wha?????? actually if I took you step by step though each movement of Anky in the GP waaaay back then and compared it to every other horse, yes she did deserve to win, because I did it at the time, the other horses had major flaws too, it all comes out in the wash.

Horsedances
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:49 PM
Anky competed with her #2 horse Krack C and #3 horse Painted Black, and gave a wonderfull show with Salinero at Lingen this weekend.

The weekend before she was #13 with again another horse (Nelson).

nero
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:56 PM
Do you really Feel SO VERY RIGHT?

Yup!!! ;-)

Karoline
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:57 PM
Um, maybe you need to start coming up with your own theories from your own brain and understanding of the sport instead of just repeating what others say!!! Just a thought!



Yeah mbm, you should start developing your own school of riding based on your own theories..who gives a damn about hundreds of years of combined experience and well tested knowledge. Its all bull crap.

And after your reinvent dressage, why dont give yoga the same treatment. Those yogis dont know crap either.

Oh and Nero, where else but one's brain would one's own theory come from? Oop, just took a look at more of your posts, I guess your brain is definitely not the culprit here!

eqipoize
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:57 PM
actually if I took you step by step though each movement of Anky in the GP waaaay back then and compared it to every other horse, yes she did deserve to win, because I did it at the time, the other horses had major flaws too, it all comes out in the wash.

Well, see, that is where subjective opinion comes in, and while you may have many that agree with you, I have probably the same number that agree with me. There was a flurry of discussion about it WAAAYYY Back then too. I believe even the commentators on the CD are a little surprized at the marks.

Anyhoo, her failure to win this weekend does nothing to prove or disprove Any theory - except to say that THIS weekend she Didn't have the best horse - In the Scoring Judges Opinions. No matter How right you may feel.

But the self Assured always assure themselves, and nothing I type will change that. So "Burger King" - you can have it your way.

nero
Jul. 10, 2006, 12:02 AM
except to say that THIS weekend she Didn't have the best horse - In the Scoring Judges Opinions.

That is exactly my point.

Karoline before you spout off at me read mbm's post SHE said it was a theory she was repeating from other people. I didn't summize that, she admitted it! god, eye roll, where are the emoticons here!

Karoline
Jul. 10, 2006, 01:08 AM
I guess you dont like to be treated the way you treat others.

Yes, rolling eyes emoticon indeed.

nero
Jul. 10, 2006, 01:25 AM
I guess you dont like to be treated the way you treat others.

Yes, rolling eyes emoticon indeed.

Karoline, why don't you do yourself a favour and ignore my posts like I mostly do yours. It would make your life a lot happier. Because all you do is bitch and moan about how I write things, my tone, blah, blah, blah. You never actually seem to engage in terms of what I write.

Karoline
Jul. 10, 2006, 01:32 AM
Hey, put me on your ignore list and I will....dissapear.

What is there to engage? Your mean streak where some posters are concerned? Your idolatry of all things Anky? We get it. You think she rules.
Its almost like a Princess Di cult. I would bet 10 bucks that you also thought she was **special**.

Not.

nero
Jul. 10, 2006, 01:38 AM
Hey, put me on your ignore list and I will....dissapear.


Great idea, thanks for the tip.

Done

eqipoize
Jul. 10, 2006, 01:58 AM
That is exactly my point.



No, your original point was to try and prove incorrect all past arguements that perhaps some of Anky's marks were a bit high for the work shown. However, the fact that THIS show doesn't demonstrate that tendancy, does not prove past 'halo effect' invalid - because there is a good likelihood that the judges are in fact changing course and NOT judging in a manner similar to what has been seen for the last two years. Or at least THIS PANEL of judges is not judging that way. So, your point - taken on its individual merits - is invalid. IF A is to B and R is to L, that does NOT prove XYZ.

Kareen
Jul. 10, 2006, 05:13 AM
OMG will they ever stop their 'poor Anky needs to be defended against the evil'-game?
Thank you for taking it down to an easy to comprehend picture eqipoize *LOL*

egontoast
Jul. 10, 2006, 06:26 AM
OFFS

Another stupid bitchfest.

siegi b.
Jul. 10, 2006, 10:20 AM
Egontoast.... I think the folks from TOB are hanging out here now and are trying to inject their sense of "logic". Oh well.... Let's hope TOB is ready for business soon.

eqipoize
Jul. 10, 2006, 08:51 PM
Egontoast.... I think the folks from TOB are hanging out here now and are trying to inject their sense of "logic". Oh well.... Let's hope TOB is ready for business soon.

Just out of curiosity, but isn't Nero one of the 'regulars' around here? As far as my logic, show me where it is corrupt - I am actually a fairly sensible soul and will listen to any intelligent discussion. I may not wind up agreeing with you, but I usually learn something. I simply say that the results of one show don't prove anything about the judging at another show. If that is illogical, please explain. TIA.

nero
Jul. 10, 2006, 09:04 PM
Just out of curiosity, but isn't Nero one of the 'regulars' around here? As far as my logic, show me where it is corrupt - I am actually a fairly sensible soul and will listen to any intelligent discussion. I may not wind up agreeing with you, but I usually learn something. I simply say that the results of one show don't prove anything about the judging at another show. If that is illogical, please explain. TIA.
To my mind its quite simple, IF people here think , and people here HAVE said it, Anky gets 'Anky points' and wins even when she does not deserve it because of her name and notoriety, then surely when she does not win then perhaps it suggests that she is actually judged on her ride NOT her name. When arguing absolutes, like I have witnessed here and on TOB numerous times, then when one example exists where the absolute is disproved perhaps it bears analaysis and maybe the conclusion would be that she is indeed judged on her rides and there is no great conspiracy amongst judges or blanket incompetentcy, as has been suggested. An 'absolute' argument means there can be NO examples to the contrary. That's all I'm saying. Anyway, when her other horse Nelson repeatedly gets 13th or 14th in shows with mid 60's scores and Krack C is regularly NOT the winner one would suggest that it is not just the results of ONE show that you could draw on to make this conclusion.

Yes you could say that a few shows here and there do not prove anything, but to me its more to go on then just a feeling and says that she IS judged fairly - my idea is not simply a suspiscion based on a collective dislike of her training and the assumption that judges see her through rose coloured glasses. Maybe I'm just a glass half full kinda gal!

Horsedances
Jul. 10, 2006, 10:22 PM
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/july_lingen-photo.html

mbm
Jul. 10, 2006, 11:16 PM
i just wanted to say congrats to Mr. Schmidt for being either first or second in all the GP classes - way to go !!!! i *love* his riding ability and i really like forrest gump.

Kareen
Jul. 11, 2006, 04:53 AM
I only wish he had more horses 'ready to rumble' Wansuela really doesn't look fresh anymore. I've found her walk to be on the stiff side always but at Lingen I found she looked borderline lame :( Still such a happy picture but how can the poor girl compare to a horse as fresh and springy as Elvis. Re. Anky-points I think the enormous noise around her and this entire style of riding has lead to judges watching real closely and it has definitely improved the picture in the warmup arenas around here. So all the hightempered discussions have been good for something :)

belambi
Jul. 11, 2006, 05:09 AM
question
http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2006/july_lingen-photo.html


Yet again we see the huge action in front with nothing behind in the H Schmidt pictures.. but its perfectly acceptable?.. no one comments when its a German!

slc2
Jul. 11, 2006, 09:49 AM
what motivation would all the international judges have for continuing to pin the same person? why would they do that? i'd like one of the judges to come here and explain why they are being so corrupt and biased, and what's in it for them. how much does anky and sjeff pay them to throw down all their morals and their training and their ethics, and pin this stinking, awful horse and rider? let's find out. i want dollar amounts.

let me get this straight. you guys are saying that anky gets a HUGE amount of 'anky points' just for being who she is. she goes in, she rides like crap, and they give her 80 percents, because they as judges suck and are corrupt.

ok. that's where we'll start the discussion.

because to me, it smacks of some sort of delusional paranoia to single ou tthis one person as being the source of all evil, and attacking anyone who says the LEAST positive thing about her as being some sort of cult devotee (nero).

now let's think about who she is. her family had jumpers, not dresssage horses, and she had two older brothers she always struggled to keep up with. she won the national young rider champs of holland on a little hot potato thoroughbred that she trained herself that taught her a lot of very hard lessons, mostly on her own. she took a 2 year old that no one else would give the time of day, worked with an outsider of a coach who was so hard on even this very tough and independent young lady that she at points in time when told she had to score higher to stick with the big boys, said, 'but i just can't, i'm doing all i can now, i can't do any better', and then she DID, and made what was the most unlikely, difficult horse anyone ever laid eyes on, into a winning dressage horse by using a controversial technique she adopted from her outsider trainer.

now, normally, this would be made into a hallmark movie, and you'd all watch it sobbing your eyes out. for some reason, though, maybe because she has the temerity to warm up these horses in a position yo udon't like, she is the target of the most unbelievable nastiness.

fact is, there IS some advantage, at times, to being a rider and trainer the judges TRUST and have seen before and have confidence in. at the same time, there is a DISADVANTAGE, because many judges are actually very hard on the known combinations, as klimke wrote, as podhajsky wrote, etc.

mbm
Jul. 11, 2006, 12:13 PM
i dont think anyone said that the halo effect was only about avg?

regards to Mr schmidt - i dont have time to look at the photos, but i know that his training is classical - he is just paying the bills by giving what the judges like....

and fwiw, we always hear about how come if, classical is so good, how come it doenst win? so i thought i would start pointing out that it DOES win.

:)

egontoast
Jul. 11, 2006, 12:36 PM
omg
Ok, so which is it:confused:


regards to Mr schmidt - i dont have time to look at the photos, but i know that his training is classical - he is just paying the bills by giving what the judges like....


or


and fwiw, we always hear about how come if, classical is so good, how come it doenst win? so i thought i would start pointing out that it DOES win.

mbm
Jul. 11, 2006, 02:41 PM
omg
Ok, so which is it:confused:

my 2 statemebts do not cancel each other out..... i have talked to *many* folks that train one way and ride another for a test..... in fact avg does the same...

so, while i may not agree with it, i understand it.

so..... someone may train classically and show with a more rounded outline - it is a choice that rides have to make. (altho as i said i didnt look at the pic and so am being very general in my comments)

eqipoize
Jul. 11, 2006, 03:36 PM
let me get this straight. you guys are saying that anky gets a HUGE amount of 'anky points' just for being who she is. she goes in, she rides like crap, and they give her 80 percents, because they as judges suck and are corrupt.

ok. that's where we'll start the discussion

OK - lets get this REALLY straight - because your 'straight' is a pretty wiggly line, slc. we are NOT saying that. What has been said is that the judges DO cut Anky some real slack in some instances - giving 6's to serious errors that probably Ought to be 3's, and they also seem to "LIKE" Salerino's style, so he is earning 9's and 10's for piaffes and passage that some see as lacking basic requirements. And some rather Large Pirouettes are still getting 7's or 8's. There have been World record preformances that were only good, Not the best ever in the world! Why? Because the riders Before her really stepped up to the plate and had great rides - even Theo was quoted as saying 'I knew when I saw the scores of the riders before her, that Anky would set a world record'. My question would be WHY would you "Know" that??? Because Anky Must win? Because The judges were scoring really generous? I actually thought the scores for the other riders were pretty accurate - some of the rides that wound up Not being first place were better technically, more artistic, with a greater degree of difficulty, than Salerino's go. So why didn't they win? Why did Theo KNOW she would set a world record? (I am not picking on Theo, I am simply using his quote because it is a clear example of someone 'knowing' that Anky outscores the competition - he knew it Before he saw her ride, or at least that is what he Said!)

So, what people are saying is that for Some reason, and I have theories, but I can't say for sure Why, but for Some Reason, the judges are Very Generous with Anky and Salerino. And I don't know if they were generous or tough on Krack C and Painted Black - I didn't see their preformances. So, maybe the marks they got WERE generous, but the rides were So flawed that even generousity couldn't make them win. I don't know, I didn't see, but it IS a POSSIBILITY. Which simply means that the original post demonstrated flawed logic in an attempt to Disprove a belief that some hold about how judges tend to mark Anky (And MANY others) more generously.

There has been MUCH discussion about the Necessity for American Riders to go to Germany and compete in front of the European judges before the Olympics to get seen. This has been discussed for YEARS. That a complete unknown who shows up in the ring has to scratch and claw for good marks - but after the judges know that you produce quality work, then they are a little more relaxed about giving the 8's and 9's. Heck, it has even been said that going First at the Olympics tends to result in lower marks - because the judges are hesitant to give high scores to the first horses, because someone might come in and Do Better, so they need to leave room at the top. I don't make this stuff up - it is published in Magazines!

So, is it Incomprehensible to some of you that the judges, knowing that Anky is the top winning rider, have an easier time giving her top marks, and a Harder time marking her low? Remember, when a judge DID mark her harshly last year, he wound up in Court???? And SJ tried to have him banned from judging her because he was in legal action with her??? And they threatened to Never Show in Germany again? So, how brave is some less established O judge going to be??? Lots of 'gentleman 6's' perhaps?

Anyway, she is a good rider, she is very accurate. Salerino is a flashy horse, but some of us feel he has serious holes in his training, and that the work he produces is NOT the greatest ever seen in dressage - which is what world record scores would represent, don't you think? And lastly, When people say the judges give Anky points, really, it refers to Anky and Salerino, her A circuit horse, Not her 2nd string (and a fine second string it is). And again, did anyone see the rides? Were they accurately scored? Were there glaring errors? Without seeing the rides, NO ONE can say whether the marks were generous, fair or harsh. No matter WHAT the final placing was. I have had rides that were generously scored, and I still didn't win the class. Sometimes a judge LIKES your horse, and even though he is being a fool, they give good marks everywhere they can, and you look at the test as think "Wow, that was Very Generous!" even if you don't take home the blue! As much experience as you have had, slc, I can't imagine that hasn't happened to you at some time! And Surely you have seen a BNT come into the ring on a new horse, and the horse, though Very Talented, is tense, and spooky and makes numerous mistakes, and STILL the horse gets good marks, and maybe even places in the class, and you think to yourself, "if that had been ME riding, it would have been 50% at best!!!) But the judge 'forgives' the mistakes, KNOWING that that the rider knows better, and doesn't need 'an education'. Come On! You HAVE to have seen that at some point in your life. That doesn't mean the judges are corrupt or suck at what they do. It means they are human, have opinions, and sometimes they are nice to their friends. It also doesn't make it right.

slc2
Jul. 11, 2006, 04:28 PM
since i'm so busy i've got to thank you for writing my post for me, and knowing what i think, what experiences i have had, how i feel about them, and helping me so much to agree with you.

it's all very nice, but is, unfortunately, wrong. if you like, you can keep posting what i think and how i see it and what happened to me, and how i feel about the top riders. in fact, if you want, you can get an slc3 login, and just go to town.

i especially like the part where you even know what the judge is thinking and why the rider gets the score that he gets, AND you know how the judge was thinking and why he scored the rider the way he did - you know - the rider i didn't have in my class, at the show i was in, when i didn't feel what you say i felt, and all that.

tewhann
Jul. 11, 2006, 04:59 PM
What troubles me is the trends we see in dressage today. This rider or that rider just doesn't matter in comparison to the Big Picture. The Welfare of the Hores and the Dignity of the Sport.

A "flashing up" of dressage. That's what the judges seem to want to see right now. They don't care as much about enforcing some of (what I consider to be important) the actual rules. They're perfectly happy to pin horses who don't even have pure gaits, ones whose front ends are are flung so high their back ends can never keep up.

That's the trend.

I believe that respect for the horse in its own grace and beauty is being lost. It's about "winning" and money. Not respect for the horse and certainly not viewing him as a partner, but rather as something to dominate and force.

There is little beauty and harmony left in so many upper level performances.

I wish the UDBB was up right now. I'd love to post a link to a thread which had a famous GP horse today compared to a Saddleseat horse.

The saddleseat horse used its back end better.

Very sad indeed.

While I personally will never endorse or support a rider who I feel doesn't have the horse's best interests at heart---What I call the "Crank and Spank Brigade"---the main issues is the trends of the sport towards flash rather than correctness.

When you're willing to WAIT for the horse until he's READY.....when you care about the HORSE'S WELL BEING more than the money......when you're interested in a PARTNERSHIP rather than a DICTATORSHIP.....THAT is when dressage begins.

The rest is just flashy flat work with tricks.

slc2
Jul. 11, 2006, 06:06 PM
it is your opinion that that is the trend today. it is not my opinion. and it is not a fact at all that this exists - it is an opinion.

if some self serving person trying to peddle their training services as better than anyone else's, saying that everyone else is just flash, that still doesn't mean that is what is happening. it isn't even necessarily a valid opinion (valid opinions have at least by some stretch of the imagination, some attestation).

in fact, about 35 yrs ago, back in the supposed time that is always cited when people weren't going for just flash and riding saddle seat style, that's exactly the accusation that got tossed around THEN...when people like reiner klimke and the so called great ones ie the much better than today ones were riding. in fact, i can remember reading the same complaint in 'The Horseman's Companion' in an article written in 1928! it's fascinating how decades and decades change...nothing.

what i think is crap is the statement that the judges all just are rewarding flash, like they know so little about what they are doing, and are so stupid.

slc

tewhann
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:17 PM
An opinion? Not really. Lets take judging and riding out of it. Lets just look at breeding trends.

Would you say that horses today are NOT being bred for additional front end action?

Would you say that the young horses winning do NOT show a trend towards a higher front leg and a lower hind leg?

Would you say that most horses being bred, in Holland particularly, have parallel cannon bones at the trot?

I would say that more and more, particularly in Dutch horses, the trend is towards what I call "flash" action that results in impure gaits.

Oh, I WISH that the judges didn't know what they are doing. I WISH they were just ignorant or stupid. But that isn't the case nor should that be how my post reads.

This isn't "chance" or ignorance. It is a decision to move towards a new trend.

More than ever before.....

nero
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:29 PM
i dont think anyone said that the halo effect was only about avg?

regards to Mr schmidt - i dont have time to look at the photos, but i know that his training is classical - he is just paying the bills by giving what the judges like....

and fwiw, we always hear about how come if, classical is so good, how come it doenst win? so i thought i would start pointing out that it DOES win.

:)

You don't have time to look at ONE pic of a hero of yours doing a sport you love??!!!!! Yet you have seemingly all the time in the world to review rides you don't like and post here and other boards - a lot!!!

Interesting list of priorities.

FWIW, IF you looked at the pic, you would see a mare that is much more extravagant in front than behind, and I can guarantee you NO judges prefer to see that over an engaged horse, that is tracking up, I would say she'd only be pulling sixes for that trot work, hardly Schmidt giving the judges what they want. You just contradicted yourself, you argue Schmidts horse doesn't overtrack in ext trot (the pic) because he's only giving the judges what they want and its not an indicator for classical dressage THEN you say classical IS winning. I'm confused, which is it????

Carol Ames
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:36 PM
Can we agree :cool: that she starts with the right stuff"? fabulous horses:winkgrin:

nero
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:46 PM
Can we agree :cool: that she starts with the right stuff"? fabulous horses:winkgrin:
Well maybe. On face value yes they are very talented but I don't think anyone would say that Salinero, Painted Black or esp Bonfire were overly special when Anky firs got them. Salinero was almost unrideable apparently, and has some issues with overtracking and relaxation, Painted Black failed classification and Bonfire, well not very attractive, bad walk, funny conformation. BUT they all seem incredibly trainable under Anky, I think she made them what they are/were, its not like any of them were Florencio or Sandro Hit or Poetin, ie horses that had remarkable raw talent.

eqipoize
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:53 PM
Lord, I would Hope to Heck that by the time you are the #1 rider in the world, you get the choice of horses, not cast offs and retreads!!!! I mean, I already Ride those sorts, so what is the point on reaching international heights if you still ride conformationally challenged, emotionally difficult horses??? Are there any horses out there that are considered good quality - normal sane horses - and then become international stars - or all they all just a little psychotic??? I worry.

Now, I know all about Anky's history with Bonnie - that is different - he was the one that really took her to the top, Prisco got her started, but her relationship and success with Bonfire is what made her the #1 rider. So, I know he was not the horse everyone would want to ride, but why now? Why doesn't she have a stable full of the very best - the cream of the crop? Really, I am just asking - because it seems inconcievable to me that she doesn't get to pick and choose.

mbm
Jul. 12, 2006, 09:08 PM
You don't have time to look at ONE pic of a hero of yours doing a sport you love??!!!!! Yet you have seemingly all the time in the world to review rides you don't like and post here and other boards - a lot!!!

Interesting list of priorities.

FWIW, IF you looked at the pic, you would see a mare that is much more extravagant in front than behind, and I can guarantee you NO judges prefer to see that over an engaged horse, that is tracking up, I would say she'd only be pulling sixes for that trot work, hardly Schmidt giving the judges what they want. You just contradicted yourself, you argue Schmidts horse doesn't overtrack in ext trot (the pic) because he's only giving the judges what they want and its not an indicator for classical dressage THEN you say classical IS winning. I'm confused, which is it????

your funny. :)

it you read what i posted i said i was answering VERY generally and not talking about the pic....

i disagree that judges dont like flashy front legs - its what wins.

and yes, i was VERY busy over the last week - i had a couple jobs that were very time sensitive... and didnt want to get in a huge discussion about this - its pointless... you are clearly very bitter and have huge chip on your shoulder re: me. <shrug> i dont really care.

i just wanted to give HUGE props to mr schmidt for again showing that yes, classical does win. !! :) :)

egontoast
Jul. 12, 2006, 09:40 PM
i just wanted to give HUGE props to mr schmidt for again showing that yes, classical does win. !!

so the judges are Ok then.

nero
Jul. 12, 2006, 09:53 PM
your funny. :)

it you read what i posted i said i was answering VERY generally and not talking about the pic....

well obviously, you were too busy to click one link to view one pic, so you couldn't be talking about that. But perhaps you should since you appear now to be avoiding it because you possibly couldn't explain why a horse Schmidt is one is showing the same, actually much worse, example of a poor extended trot that you and other claim rk trained horses display as a result of poor training? You don't appear too busy right now, perhaps you should take a peek and get back to us with your appraisal of what's going on there?

PS Schmidt didn't win, I think he came second, to a horse that is trained deep, (not rk, but deep)

Oh god, not bitter mbm, I love all these riders, I think they are great!!!! just amused at how you seem unable to justify your ideas with a logical thought process or original ideas and sometimes its fun to try and extract answers. But if you would like to put it down to my 'bitterness' and thus avoid arguiing the actual issue and instead sledge me - go ahead. Still doesn't answer the question though.

sabryant
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:32 AM
well obviously, you were too busy to click one link to view one pic, so you couldn't be talking about that. But perhaps you should since you appear now to be avoiding it because you possibly couldn't explain why a horse Schmidt is one is showing the same, actually much worse, example of a poor extended trot that you and other claim rk trained horses display as a result of poor training? You don't appear too busy right now, perhaps you should take a peek and get back to us with your appraisal of what's going on there?

PS Schmidt didn't win, I think he came second, to a horse that is trained deep, (not rk, but deep)

Oh god, not bitter mbm, I love all these riders, I think they are great!!!! just amused at how you seem unable to justify your ideas with a logical thought process or original ideas and sometimes its fun to try and extract answers. But if you would like to put it down to my 'bitterness' and thus avoid arguiing the actual issue and instead sledge me - go ahead. Still doesn't answer the question though.


Trying to explain training styles is a bit like trying to explain Aztec math to people who don't understand that two totally different training styles can produce a similar ride. I think that mbm is in denial and doesn't want to believe that Schmidt's horse might go like a RK horse or, better yet, might be a similar style horse to Salinero!

Sabine
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:39 AM
don't expect that question to be answered anytime soon, Nero.
MBM is sitting between a rock and a hard place- she has to be loyal to her classical convictions and still accept the fact that Anky did not win in Lingen- because PB is not that good and neither is Krack...which means that the judges might actually be judging what they see and doing their jobs...whoopdidoo!!! Who would have thought that...???

Only those folks that regularly are exposed to the extensive training and schooling program these judges have to be aware of and the incredible awareness they all have of what is going on and being said in the press- will know that they actually do judge according to very clear rules and according to what they SEE!! that's all.
Accept it and live with it...if Anky makes a superhorse with her training method so be it... if Hubertus ever succeeds to make a superhorse with his method so be it...it comes down to actual delivery of the product at the exact appointed time with the exact required goods- and Anky has been the best consistently at doing just that...in my mind- she has the ultimate show balls..!!! therefore I have the highest admiration for her!! and this has nothing to do with her method, her husband, her son, her previous or future horses...just her and how she can deliver.

nero
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:59 AM
I would like to see a bit more respect for the judges judging at the top level, knowing what they go through to earn the right to judge and knowing how experienced they are as horse people it annoys me to see people here, who often demonstrate how little they actually know that isn't just regurgitation of someone else's opinion they THINK is knowledgeable, can criticise judges who are doing a thankless and difficult and highly skilled job. Its not black and white, no matter how much you want it to be, just because YOU don't like Salinero yet he still wins does not mean the judges are incompetent or corrupt I'm afraid. It just means he's the best horse on the day, not perfect, not flawless, just the best on the day...........

Still waiting mbm for your thoughts on Schmidt's pic, seriously, one click, thirty seconds is all it will take, then you can tell us, in your words, what is happening there and why???????????????????

mbm
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:42 AM
i am not sure what you folks want ??

i cant answer for what that pic represents..... do i like what i see? no. but so what? that does not change the fact that mr. schmidt trains classically and that he is winning.

and no, i am not the one between a rock and a hard place... that would be the folks that are showing and that have to choose between doing what is correct and doing what the judges are rewarding at this time..

and i dont see how anyone can say that judges are not rewarding high front leg action, a "rounded" outline, and the "wow" factor. so, i would imagine that those that want to stay on top will try to produce what the judges want to see. wasnt there an article by Krya that said that they, as riders, need to do what the judges want?

as far as criticizing judges. i dont think anyone is above criticizing if warranted. i have no hero worship. i *do* think that folks deserve respect - but that doesnt mean no criticizing.

if you think about how judges are picked and who pays them it makes sense that they would try to please the show organizers and the show organizers want to please the topriders so that they come back again, and everyone wants to please the crowd. the judges do what makes them popular because that is what makes them a hot, wanted commodity - if judges score using the whole range of numbers or score low they get slammed... no one wants to ride under them. - i dont have any direct experience at int'l levels but i would guess it is the same (?) .... an unpopular judge is not going to be asked back. a popular judge is. all of this could be alleviated if there were a system of picking judges that was totally random and if the judges were paid out of a fund. (of course i am guessing how the int'l judges are paid/picked because i donut know - and the above comments are based on what i see/know from the US) )

i guess i will have to dig thru my books at some point, and quote where i read that there is a "Red List" and, while i cant remember the why and wherefores, it is basically the Halo effect - a rider HAS to ride in front of judges many many times before they are judged in a manner that allows success. i wish this weren't true...

i happen to LOVE dressage. i LOVE watching a good test... it gives me shivers and makes me cry. there is a REASON i ride every day and work with the best coach i could find ( i even moved to work with this person) ...

i dont want to see dressage turn into something that it wasnt meant to be.

and i have every right to voice my opinion as the next girl. you wont know this because you dont know me.... but i can guarantee you that i dont parrot anyone.... i am a VERY individual person and i spent a lot of time researching, reading and thinking. i have a mind of my own - and i also have no problem changing my mind or admitting if i am wrong.

what is ironic is that some here say that there is a party line on the UDBB and that they are not allowed to voice an opinion outside of that.... well... here i am voicing an opinion that is different than the party line here on COTH - and lo and behold - i am being slammed for it. interesting.

anyway.... as i wanted to point out classical riders/trainers DO win at the highest levels of our sport.

dq140
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:45 AM
Why mbm, whatever do you mean? You can't answer Nero's question??? You cannot tell that this classically trained horse does not track up in the trot????

mbm
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:51 AM
Trying to explain training styles is a bit like trying to explain Aztec math to people who don't understand that two totally different training styles can produce a similar ride. I think that mbm is in denial and doesn't want to believe that Schmidt's horse might go like a RK horse or, better yet, might be a similar style horse to Salinero!

no sabyrant, i am not in denial. horses are horses they can only move/respond a given number of ways.... so yes, different things can produce similar results.

nero
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:23 AM
i am not sure what you folks want ??

i cant answer for what that pic represents..... do i like what i see? no. but so what? that does not change the fact that mr. schmidt trains classically and that he is winning.

and no, i am not the one between a rock and a hard place... that would be the folks that are showing and that have to choose between doing what is correct and doing what the judges are rewarding at this time..

and i dont see how anyone can say that judges are not rewarding high front leg action, a "rounded" outline, and the "wow" factor. so, i would imagine that those that want to stay on top will try to produce what the judges want to see. wasnt there an article by Krya that said that they, as riders, need to do what the judges want?

as far as criticizing judges. i dont think anyone is above criticizing if warranted. i have no hero worship. i *do* think that folks deserve respect - but that doesnt mean no criticizing.

if you think about how judges are picked and who pays them it makes sense that they would try to please the show organizers and the show organizers want to please the topriders so that they come back again, and everyone wants to please the crowd. the judges do what makes them popular because that is what makes them a hot, wanted commodity - if judges score using the whole range of numbers or score low they get slammed... no one wants to ride under them. - i dont have any direct experience at int'l levels but i would guess it is the same (?) .... an unpopular judge is not going to be asked back. a popular judge is. all of this could be alleviated if there were a system of picking judges that was totally random and if the judges were paid out of a fund. (of course i am guessing how the int'l judges are paid/picked because i donut know - and the above comments are based on what i see/know from the US) )

i guess i will have to dig thru my books at some point, and quote where i read that there is a "Red List" and, while i cant remember the why and wherefores, it is basically the Halo effect - a rider HAS to ride in front of judges many many times before they are judged in a manner that allows success. i wish this weren't true...

i happen to LOVE dressage. i LOVE watching a good test... it gives me shivers and makes me cry. there is a REASON i ride every day and work with the best coach i could find ( i even moved to work with this person) ...

i dont want to see dressage turn into something that it wasnt meant to be.

and i have every right to voice my opinion as the next girl. you wont know this because you dont know me.... but i can guarantee you that i dont parrot anyone.... i am a VERY individual person and i spent a lot of time researching, reading and thinking. i have a mind of my own - and i also have no problem changing my mind or admitting if i am wrong.

what is ironic is that some here say that there is a party line on the UDBB and that they are not allowed to voice an opinion outside of that.... well... here i am voicing an opinion that is different than the party line here on COTH - and lo and behold - i am being slammed for it. interesting.

anyway.... as i wanted to point out classical riders/trainers DO win at the highest levels of our sport.


A couple of things,

1) because you cannot account for the lack of tracking up in this classically trained horse does bring into question your position on RK and how it "apparently" damages the end product.

2) I do not believe Mr Schmidt is actually 'winning', placing highly, SOMETIMES, but not beating a lot of other horses, mostly the rk trained ones in fact. In a full strength field he does not place that highly, Lingen was not full strength.

3) IN YOUR OWN words you say that a lot of what you say is not necessarily your original thoughts but what other, more knowledgeable people have said, so don't throw that one back in our faces.

4) I'm not suggesting that you hero worship ANY one or a judge, but a bit of respect for their knowledge when they, and even you'd admit this, DO have more experience than you.

5) the apparent halo effect????? well where is the proof, its just a theory with little basis, if this halo effect was the case, Ulla Salzgeber would be still winning on her other lesser non-Rusty horses, she's not, Anky would be doing better than mid to low field on Nelson, she's not and Isabelle would have won all the time on Anthony, Satchmo etc etc. She doesn't, I can see proof the halo effect DOESN"T happen just can't see any proof where it DOES, sorry. The 'halo effect' theory I've only ever heard from disgruntled people/riders who didn't beat the person they accuse of having the halo.

6) the fact that you DON'T like what you see, your words, with Wansuela Suerte but say its OK because its classical and its winning just astounds me because you lot have been telling us we are crap for that argument when we use it with Anky!!!!

7) the rest of your post, well I'm not sure, its wasn't very coherent.

But guys this is cruel, mbm is obviously flustered and cannot answer the simple question, we should lay off.

mbm
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:34 AM
nero - i am not going to play with you. i tried to answer your questions. clearly not to your liking. oh well.

the only think i want to add is that yes, mr schmidt is winning. at the show that this whole thread was about he was either 1st or 2nd for all the GP classes.

Sabine
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:52 AM
nero - i am not going to play with you. i tried to answer your questions. clearly not to your liking. oh well.

the only think i want to add is that yes, mr schmidt is winning. at the show that this whole thread was about he was either 1st or 2nd for all the GP classes.


Duhh- get your facts mbm...you seem to be in the cheering section rather than having an opinion...this thread needs facts and well founded opinions..be prepared to explain...and do it now!

Or...blah,blah, blah., we all know what that means...:)

nero
Jul. 13, 2006, 03:11 AM
nero - i am not going to play with you. i tried to answer your questions. clearly not to your liking. oh well.

the only think i want to add is that yes, mr schmidt is winning. at the show that this whole thread was about he was either 1st or 2nd for all the GP classes.

he came second in most first in one, yes, that's true BUT as I said this was one show, where the best in the world except Elvis and Nadine were not present, and the rest of my questions just too hard to answer I guess.

I would suggest you don't play with me, its just flustering you more and more. And no, I'm sorry your responses weren't really answers because they didn't address the questions, they deflected and tried to confuse, like an impala running frantically and erratically to try and put off the cheetah.

mbm
Jul. 13, 2006, 10:57 AM
he came second in most first in one, yes, that's true BUT as I said this was one show, where the best in the world except Elvis and Nadine were not present, and the rest of my questions just too hard to answer I guess.

I would suggest you don't play with me, its just flustering you more and more. And no, I'm sorry your responses weren't really answers because they didn't address the questions, they deflected and tried to confuse, like an impala running frantically and erratically to try and put off the cheetah.

god you have an high opinion of yourself.

i did answer your questions. you don like/understand my answers. so what?

and no not like a impala.... more like an adult watching a spoiled child pull a temper tantrum :)

kkj
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:41 AM
I agree some with all of you on both sides.

I do think a halo effect exists to some degree in most every judged sport. Ice skating, dressage what have you. Judges are human. For example I was always an A student. I think sometimes I could slack off a bit and still get that A with certain teachers. They just saw me as an A student even when maybe I wasn't doing my best or as good as someone else. Sometimes it is hard just to judge the performance at hand and this does not exist in a vacuum.

I think Anky is absolutely incredible. I think she has done a fabulous job with some not the best in the world horses for example Painted Black. I don't think his gaits are that great and Anky can pretty much bring the best out of any horse. There are very few people in the world like that. It is a huge gift and skill and I respect it. I would like her a lot more if she weren't with that Sjeff. He really rubs me the wrong way and I hope someday she dumps him (but of course it is none of my business and doesn't affect what a phenomenal rider she is) I don't like the Rolkur pics and I have thought Salinero a bit tense, but as a team they are still incredible and amazing to watch. However she gets it done it is amazing in my opinion. I have also noticed that some of the people who supposably have the classically trained anti Rolkur horses like Bretinna and Wamsuela have horses that do appear a bit more stiff. Why I don't have the sophitication to say, but I have noticed it.

So I think maybe sometimes Anky and Salinero have received scores that were a little high. I thought Lingh should have beat Salinero in the Vegas World cup. I thought his gaits were more pure and it was more correct. (but he uses Rolkur too so go figure) I am no qualified judge though and thought Ankys ride was pretty spectacular too.

Those of you who know a lot about it, what are parallel cannons at the trot? What is the trend in breeding in Holland? It seems like a lot of horses bred specifically for dressage these days don't have the best hind end, engine. I worry with further specialization this will get worse. Again I am no expert but the keuring I went to last year it seemed to me that two of the KWPN mares that got keur did not have hind ends I thought were the best for correct upper level dressage. Amazing in front however.

eqipoize
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:18 PM
I haven't posted much in the last few days because it just seemed silly to try and have any influence over people who so clearly have their mind made up and have the attitudes to prove it. BUT I have to say, the condescending attitude represented in this thread is proof of why I will be glad to go home. Throughout this bb, I have seen people confess that it is FUN to bait someone, Fun to insult people they don't even know.

OK, lets stick to the point. Why would HS have his horse demonstrate flaws in the extended trot? Because currently, that is the style the judges give the highest marks to. Don't believe it? Fine. You can have your own reality, but When a horse does a reasonably Correct extension, but it isn't Great, it gets a 6 or 7. If a horse is pushed Over Tempo, Driven onto the riders hands, then the horse starts to fling the front legs, and trail the quarters. Guess what, the judges give That effort an 8 or 9. So, guess what I do when I show??? And if I am clever enough to sort that out, don't you think HS would know it also? Now, of Course, if a horse can do a Really Good Extended, then they will get the 8 or 9 or maybe even a 10 and NOT show the flaws inherent in over rounding the neck - but if you have to eek out points in a horses weak area, you do what you need to do.

I am sorry that some of you believe that Just because the judges have been at their sport a long time they are incapable of being wrong. There seem to be some Very Big names who compete internationally who seem to see the same problems we do. In fact, Reiner Klimke talks about judges having the wrong priorities in his book Training the Young horse. And you even have the various heads of the FEI dressage TELLING judges where to put their emphasis. For a while it was simply accuracy - then it was flash - somehow everyone has forgotten balance, drive and freedom of shoulders from self carriage. We now have a rule that says the curb rein MUST have some tension in it???? But NO rule saying that a curb that is held horizontal must be severely penalized? Heaven forbid that someone ride a GP horse off their snaffle rein in a test.

There is SO much circular logic presented here. I don't know HOW you folks manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth! But let me try and summarize what MBM was saying. HS placed 1st and 2nd in all the GP classes, with 2 different horses. HS is KNOWN to train in the traditional manner. It is nice to see that a classical trainer IS able to place near the top.

Now, in the spanish interrogation that followed, the question was raised that in some photos, HS's horse shows the flaws that are also seen in horses trained in rolkur. I do not believe that anywhere did MBM say that was OK - she just said that it seems to be what earns high marks, and HS is doing what it takes to win. The DIFFERENCE is that Wansuella ONLY shows the btv, trailing quarters problems IN THE EXTENDED TROT PHOTO not throughout the test. Other horses are btv in Every Photo. They show a dip behind the saddle in every photo. IF you can't see that, oh well. At least MBM didn't start making excuses about how Wansuella and Forrest are not perfect horses, with difficult temperments, and it is amazing that HS is able to make them as good as they are!!!!! Again, I think the top riders in the world MUST be able to pick and choose, and I think the arguement that their horses are inherently flawed just seems a little silly.

Now, I am sure you all will start to jump on me, and attack me, and that is fine - because I don't give a tiniest bit of a hoot about what you think of me. Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.

slc2
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:22 PM
i can't even begin to respond to this. it's all just so far off base it's nearly impossible to respond to. i wrote a post and lost it and as much as i love to type, can't bring myself to write it again.

go on you guys and enjoy yiourselves. this business of this 'disturbing trend' you're all convincing yourselves of (i especially like the part about 'high front leg and low hind leg') is an unstoppable BB phenomenon. have at it.

I just have one question. WHY do you guys get so much pleasure out of continually running around beating your chest and screaming about how lousy dressage is, and judging is, and riders are, and horses are? You guys seem to just LOVE to talk about how everyone else in the world sucks. Everyone except you doesn't understand dressage, is corrupted, rides like crap...GOD I'd hate to live in the world you guys make for yourselves.

Chicken Little is the King of the COH BB again.

sabryant
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:35 PM
eqipoize

Mbm has slung an awful lot of mud at me so there are two sides here. It is just to point that she keeps touting the classical, when HS's horses have very much the same faults as the RK horses which she is continuous about berating the faults of the RK horses because of the way they are trained. It is the only reason for this mess here. Gump has balance' in his piaffe, worse than Sal in my opinion. His mare does not track up anymore than Sal in the extended trot. It is just that mbm is against the very training, and blames the problems of these horse on the training style, when HS's horse show the exact same problems. I hope the ruling about the curb is because when you ride the loose rein curb, the curb tends to clank against the horses teeth/mouth. I like this ruling and think it will be better for the horses comfort. As for the horizontal curbs, I see that a lot in all training styles. We are just tired of the iccidental stuff being blamed on a training method. Does that make sense?

tewhann
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:47 PM
Fabulous post, Epi!!!!!

SLC2, the sky IS falling. And has been falling since people took something used as a SAFTEY measure in the warmup arena for a VERY SPOOKY horse (Rembrant) and turned it into an ALL THE TIME TRAINING METHOD.

Klimke has spoken about it. Walter Zettl has spoken about it.

Do you folks ever LOOK at the horse's face when it's forced to his chest or between his knees???????????

Horses For Life Magazine has a great photo spread and lots of good RK articles.

www.horsesforlife.com

Check this out.

Also, try forcing YOUR head to YOUR chest for just 30 seconds. Do you want to stay like that or does it hurt?????

Dressage used to be the discipline of harmony, the discipline for horse welfare.

Now, it's just like all the others. Sure, there's some good left, but the HORSE and even the SPORT is being left behind in favor of ego and money.

This is real and this is tragic.

People have been yelling for quite a while, you're right. But nobody's listened and look what we have now.

People, THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!

tewhann
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:49 PM
BTW, when you take out the mud slinging (which does happen from BOTH sides), what's left?

Who is fighting for the HORSE?

We ALL should be.

Or we should move on to biking or some other sport where the "partner" really IS disposable, rather than a soul in a different suit.

sabryant
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:10 PM
tewhann

Do you think that top atheletes in all sports, say gymnastics for example, are just suddenly put into the positions they have to perform at the top shows? Neither are the horses that are gymnasized to the positions they are ridden in for warm up. Extremes are what top athletes do in order to be at the top of their sport.

tewhann
Jul. 13, 2006, 03:06 PM
tewhann

Do you think that top atheletes in all sports, say gymnastics for example, are just suddenly put into the positions they have to perform at the top shows? Neither are the horses that are gymnasized to the positions they are ridden in for warm up. Extremes are what top athletes do in order to be at the top of their sport.

Quite true. However, humans have the ability to choose what their bodies are put through. The horses do not.

It is completely unnecessary to use RK on a horse in order to be at the top of the sport. This is a quite recent phenomenon that needs to be stopped in its tracks, IMHO.

eqipoize
Jul. 13, 2006, 03:31 PM
i can't even begin to respond to this. it's all just so far off base it's nearly impossible to respond to. i wrote a post and lost it and as much as i love to type, can't bring myself to write it again.
Does that mean people will say you are 'flustered' and unable to reply, and we should stop bothering you because clearly you are in over your head? Just wondering how equally the judgements are applied around here.



go on you guys and enjoy yiourselves. this business of this 'disturbing trend' you're all convincing yourselves of (i especially like the part about 'high front leg and low hind leg') is an unstoppable BB phenomenon. have at it.
I am amazed you are unaware of the INTERNATIONAL discussions about current disturbing trends in dressage, you always seem to be 'in the know'.



I just have one question. WHY do you guys get so much pleasure out of continually running around beating your chest and screaming about how lousy dressage is, and judging is, and riders are, and horses are? You guys seem to just LOVE to talk about how everyone else in the world sucks. Everyone except you doesn't understand dressage, is corrupted, rides like crap...GOD I'd hate to live in the world you guys make for yourselves.

Chicken Little is the King of the COH BB again.
I wouldn't say Everyone doesn't understand dressage, since I consider myself in good company with people like Reiner Klimke, Walter Zettl, Jap Pot, and everyone who is a member of Xenophon. I don't think "Dressage" is lousy, or I would take up barrel racing, or endurance riding, or start raising mini horses. I think Dressage is a fantastic concept, and when ridden in a holistic manner that honors the true nature of the horse, it offers opportunities to unite with another soul in the most pure manner. However, I also see many folks who actually LOVE their horses, and are doing the best they can, and yet, I see them being horribly misguided by the people they have chosen to help direct them towards that chance to be in harmony with their horse. And those guides ALSO love their horses, and actually think they DO know the way, but they are lost. And I was one of them. I know what it is like to keep fumbling along, thinking you have got 'IT', and then you take a lesson from someone else, and they say 'you are completely off track' and they would steer me in a New direction, and I think I have "IT" again, and still it wasn't quite right. Then, finally, with a little gift from the dressage gods, I met someone who really knows what IT is, and they showed me their version, and suddenly, the HORSE said "THAT'S IT" and Therein lies the difference. But, really, it is like evangalists who think they have spoken with God, and they believe they have seen His Face, and they really really BELIEVE they are guiding people towards heaven - and they, and their minons, are walking straight towards Hell. And they don't mean to misguide, they are simply misguided themselves. I only know that among Real mystics, there is no fooling anyone - those that have been there, instantly recognise others who have been there, and the rest of us just keep hoping. Funny thing is, I can recognise the ones who are the real deal too. Once I met one, all the other pretenders were easy to spot.
Dressage grew too fast. Everyone wanted a piece of that magic, and people gots bits and pieces and then went out and handed out those bits and pieces as if they represented the whole picture, and now we are a couple teaching generations down the road, and there are so many well meaning wrong roads, and those of us who at least want to believe We are on the right path, hoot and Hollar to the others, waving our arms saying Over HERE- THIS is the way! Only because we want to spare the others from all those wasted years of meaning well, and still doing it wrong. And No, I cannot guarantee that I have Really seen the dressage light - but I can tell you that what I know and feel now is SO different from all that I was taught before, and the real difference is the horses, and how they act and what they OFFER, and there is no more 'make him do this, and that'. And then I look at the faces of the horses that are being ridden into horrible contortions, and I don't see any way to convince myself that those horses are willing partners, they LOOK miserable. Yes, the riders are taking the horses into extreme positions to 'get the most' out of them, but it is being forced on the horses, and THAT is what I object to, not so much the positioning, as the attitude behind it. Is the sky falling? Well, when a big chunk of blue hits you on your top hat, it sure seems like a wake up call. But I guess until it whacks you on your head, you will not believe. Fine - wander down as many roads as you want, I sure can't stop you. But I can offer an option to some others who might WANT to save all that aggrevation. AND I can complain about what is being represented as "Dressage" because I want to defend the sport in its most pure form. It may not make a difference, but then again, it may not make a difference that I recycle cans and bottles, turn off lights and save as much water as I can, and eat less beef. But I still do those things to, in the hope that it DOES make a difference. You don't like hearing people complain about the state of dressage? Put your hands over your ears and sing LaLaLaLaLa. Or not - it is your choice. I honestly do not know ANY other sport where people are not supposed to question the state of affairs - there are talk shows devoted to discussing baseball and football, and current rules and whether the officials made the right call, and MOST of the people discussing the stuff are just fans, they are not denied the right to express an opinion until they have played in the NBL or NFL, and NOBODY says How can you question the umpires! They have trained for Years to do what they do! So, it is about Passion. I LOVE this art/sport and I want Others to love it, and I want the HORSES to benefit from it, not suffer because of it. And I hate that so many horses are requiring hock injections, and People are told that their horse 'can't make it past 2nd level' - when the truth is, the TRAINER doesn't know how to help the horse past 2nd level. I don't like the current trends in the international ring, and I am not alone in that. You think that they look great, and it is OK to do what they do to their horses - well, I would hate to live in the world you live it - because you would NEVER have the relationship with horses that I know is possible. Because you can't have it as long as you Make horses do Anything. It isn't possible. It is a different sort of relationship. But you really wouldn't know that. And you can scream and yell and say that I don't know What kind of relationship you have with your horses, and that is true, but I CAN know what kind you Don't have, IF you think Rolkur training is an acceptable way to treat the noble spirit that resides inside horses. Because it Is NOT. And those of us that believe it have to keep saying it is unacceptable, because the horses can't.

mbm
Jul. 13, 2006, 05:44 PM
eqipoize

Mbm has slung an awful lot of mud at me so there are two sides here. It is just to point that she keeps touting the classical, when HS's horses have very much the same faults as the RK horses which she is continuous about berating the faults of the RK horses because of the way they are trained. It is the only reason for this mess here. Gump has balance' in his piaffe, worse than Sal in my opinion. His mare does not track up anymore than Sal in the extended trot. It is just that mbm is against the very training, and blames the problems of these horse on the training style, when HS's horse show the exact same problems. I hope the ruling about the curb is because when you ride the loose rein curb, the curb tends to clank against the horses teeth/mouth. I like this ruling and think it will be better for the horses comfort. As for the horizontal curbs, I see that a lot in all training styles. We are just tired of the iccidental stuff being blamed on a training method. Does that make sense?

okay, sabyrant - i have tried many times to cross the gulf between us and have said repeatedly that perhaps i am misunderstanding you, maybe there is a language issue, a comprehension issue (mine) etc etc... i have tried to understand you. really i have. and i keep offering olive branches and i keep asking for clarification - and you keep saying over and over that i keep slinging mud at you and that i keep going on and on about the errors of RK horses.....

at this point i am going to conclude that you have no interest in my attemps at understanding you and/or your points of view.

i *really* would like to see my posts where i go on and on and where i *continually* sling mud. seriously. you posted some links a few days ago that supposedly showed me at my worst but i didnt find anything that would support that.

i swear you are taking about a different person.... that you have me mixed up with another poster.

as for the rest of your post - i NEVER made any comments about anything other than to say that contrary to what many people say, classical horses are WINNING. i made no other statement about anything, nor did i argue at all about HS or his horses or his faults etc.

its nice to be thought of as this monster and i am really enjoying the power (especially the part of being known worldwide) , but seriously..... i aint all that ;)

mbm
Jul. 13, 2006, 05:54 PM
Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.

thanks you eqipoize for actually reading what i wrote *and* for the offer out of the mud.....

????pig singing lessons????

now that is fodder for a vivid imagination :)

eqipoize
Jul. 13, 2006, 08:46 PM
Surely you know the old saying
"Don't bother - it's like trying to teach pigs to sing - it just wastes your time and it only irritates the pigs". With all the mention of Mud, I thought maybe we were in a pig sty - however, we may just be among GOATS!

egontoast
Jul. 13, 2006, 09:13 PM
Not very nice to be calling mbm a peeg, moanie.

nero
Jul. 13, 2006, 10:46 PM
Not very nice to be calling mbm a peeg, moanie.
Aahhh, now the penny drops, thanks for enlightening me eggy. Well the udbb is back up now so it should be business as usual here when they go bak to their little community. Not that that is necessarily a good thing, love a bit of bif, but with the same old people, blah..............

Same old people under different names, the pond of anky bashers is shrinking..........

sabryant
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:49 PM
I agree some with all of you on both sides.

I do think a halo effect exists to some degree in most every judged sport. Ice skating, dressage what have you. Judges are human. For example I was always an A student. I think sometimes I could slack off a bit and still get that A with certain teachers. They just saw me as an A student even when maybe I wasn't doing my best or as good as someone else. Sometimes it is hard just to judge the performance at hand and this does not exist in a vacuum.

I think Anky is absolutely incredible. I think she has done a fabulous job with some not the best in the world horses for example Painted Black. I don't think his gaits are that great and Anky can pretty much bring the best out of any horse. There are very few people in the world like that. It is a huge gift and skill and I respect it. I would like her a lot more if she weren't with that Sjeff. He really rubs me the wrong way and I hope someday she dumps him (but of course it is none of my business and doesn't affect what a phenomenal rider she is) I don't like the Rolkur pics and I have thought Salinero a bit tense, but as a team they are still incredible and amazing to watch. However she gets it done it is amazing in my opinion. I have also noticed that some of the people who supposably have the classically trained anti Rolkur horses like Bretinna and Wamsuela have horses that do appear a bit more stiff. Why I don't have the sophitication to say, but I have noticed it.

So I think maybe sometimes Anky and Salinero have received scores that were a little high. I thought Lingh should have beat Salinero in the Vegas World cup. I thought his gaits were more pure and it was more correct. (but he uses Rolkur too so go figure) I am no qualified judge though and thought Ankys ride was pretty spectacular too.

Those of you who know a lot about it, what are parallel cannons at the trot? What is the trend in breeding in Holland? It seems like a lot of horses bred specifically for dressage these days don't have the best hind end, engine. I worry with further specialization this will get worse. Again I am no expert but the keuring I went to last year it seemed to me that two of the KWPN mares that got keur did not have hind ends I thought were the best for correct upper level dressage. Amazing in front however.


kkj, nice post and nice questions asked! Parallel cannons means that you want to see a parallelogram between the hind/front cannon bones in the trot. It is my theory that over the years different styles of horses come to be highlighted for sales reasons. I mentioned before in a post, one of Germany and Hollands biggest industries is the horse industry. The style, that happens to be winning in the dressage arena, is shown at the auctions in a variety of versions. The favored style at the moment is the fabulous front end action and not much behind action. Some very skilled riders can compensate with, say, a different training method to connect these types of horses and get better (maybe not ideal, but much better) action from behind. Generally, they are built more uphill and, without so much action from behind, are easier to sit. What more could an American rider want?? With a bit of a different training method (from the ODG's,) this style horse can be, with a good foundation, made to perform very brilliantly. Hope that helps.

sabryant
Jul. 14, 2006, 12:00 AM
Quite true. However, humans have the ability to choose what their bodies are put through. The horses do not.

It is completely unnecessary to use RK on a horse in order to be at the top of the sport. This is a quite recent phenomenon that needs to be stopped in its tracks, IMHO.

And why would anyone who loves the horse ever put them through something they did not want to do. Did they want to be ridden at all? My horse doesn't seem to mind. Nor does she mind any kind of muscling as long as I put it there slowly. I wouldn't expect a beginner gymnist to do the splits no less than I would expect a green horse to perform RK. It is a system of building muscles in the same way for horses as a gymnist. Granted, there are people that don't get this principle and it is from them that a system of training gets a bad reputation.

sabryant
Jul. 14, 2006, 12:10 AM
I haven't posted much in the last few days because it just seemed silly to try and have any influence over people who so clearly have their mind made up and have the attitudes to prove it. BUT I have to say, the condescending attitude represented in this thread is proof of why I will be glad to go home. Throughout this bb, I have seen people confess that it is FUN to bait someone, Fun to insult people they don't even know.

OK, lets stick to the point. Why would HS have his horse demonstrate flaws in the extended trot? Because currently, that is the style the judges give the highest marks to. Don't believe it? Fine. You can have your own reality, but When a horse does a reasonably Correct extension, but it isn't Great, it gets a 6 or 7. If a horse is pushed Over Tempo, Driven onto the riders hands, then the horse starts to fling the front legs, and trail the quarters. Guess what, the judges give That effort an 8 or 9. So, guess what I do when I show??? And if I am clever enough to sort that out, don't you think HS would know it also? Now, of Course, if a horse can do a Really Good Extended, then they will get the 8 or 9 or maybe even a 10 and NOT show the flaws inherent in over rounding the neck - but if you have to eek out points in a horses weak area, you do what you need to do.

I am sorry that some of you believe that Just because the judges have been at their sport a long time they are incapable of being wrong. There seem to be some Very Big names who compete internationally who seem to see the same problems we do. In fact, Reiner Klimke talks about judges having the wrong priorities in his book Training the Young horse. And you even have the various heads of the FEI dressage TELLING judges where to put their emphasis. For a while it was simply accuracy - then it was flash - somehow everyone has forgotten balance, drive and freedom of shoulders from self carriage. We now have a rule that says the curb rein MUST have some tension in it???? But NO rule saying that a curb that is held horizontal must be severely penalized? Heaven forbid that someone ride a GP horse off their snaffle rein in a test.

There is SO much circular logic presented here. I don't know HOW you folks manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth! But let me try and summarize what MBM was saying. HS placed 1st and 2nd in all the GP classes, with 2 different horses. HS is KNOWN to train in the traditional manner. It is nice to see that a classical trainer IS able to place near the top.

Now, in the spanish interrogation that followed, the question was raised that in some photos, HS's horse shows the flaws that are also seen in horses trained in rolkur. I do not believe that anywhere did MBM say that was OK - she just said that it seems to be what earns high marks, and HS is doing what it takes to win. The DIFFERENCE is that Wansuella ONLY shows the btv, trailing quarters problems IN THE EXTENDED TROT PHOTO not throughout the test. Other horses are btv in Every Photo. They show a dip behind the saddle in every photo. IF you can't see that, oh well. At least MBM didn't start making excuses about how Wansuella and Forrest are not perfect horses, with difficult temperments, and it is amazing that HS is able to make them as good as they are!!!!! Again, I think the top riders in the world MUST be able to pick and choose, and I think the arguement that their horses are inherently flawed just seems a little silly.

Now, I am sure you all will start to jump on me, and attack me, and that is fine - because I don't give a tiniest bit of a hoot about what you think of me. Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.

I refer you to the last paragraph of your post. I believe it is you that stated, first and foremost, that this was another mud wrestling contest!! Maybe the revolving, circular post would resolve themselves if you could remember the mud you've already slung.

eqipoize
Jul. 14, 2006, 12:42 AM
First of all, I don't know what MUD I have slung - I think I have managed to be sufficiently restrained. I have made a few snide comments but mostly I have turned people's words back on them. Again, tell me where i have insulted an individual. I have at worst said that in my opinion, if someone supports rolkur training, then they have a mind set that precludes working in harmony with the horse's willing and giving nature. If you Do work with your hrose, and don't Make him do stuff, then you are Not included in the comment. And I don't know who Moanie is???

sabryant
Jul. 14, 2006, 01:08 AM
I haven't posted much in the last few days because it just seemed silly to try and have any influence over people who so clearly have their mind made up and have the attitudes to prove it. BUT I have to say, the condescending attitude represented in this thread is proof of why I will be glad to go home. Throughout this bb, I have seen people confess that it is FUN to bait someone, Fun to insult people they don't even know.

OK, lets stick to the point. Why would HS have his horse demonstrate flaws in the extended trot? Because currently, that is the style the judges give the highest marks to. Don't believe it? Fine. You can have your own reality, but When a horse does a reasonably Correct extension, but it isn't Great, it gets a 6 or 7. If a horse is pushed Over Tempo, Driven onto the riders hands, then the horse starts to fling the front legs, and trail the quarters. Guess what, the judges give That effort an 8 or 9. So, guess what I do when I show??? And if I am clever enough to sort that out, don't you think HS would know it also? Now, of Course, if a horse can do a Really Good Extended, then they will get the 8 or 9 or maybe even a 10 and NOT show the flaws inherent in over rounding the neck - but if you have to eek out points in a horses weak area, you do what you need to do.

I am sorry that some of you believe that Just because the judges have been at their sport a long time they are incapable of being wrong. There seem to be some Very Big names who compete internationally who seem to see the same problems we do. In fact, Reiner Klimke talks about judges having the wrong priorities in his book Training the Young horse. And you even have the various heads of the FEI dressage TELLING judges where to put their emphasis. For a while it was simply accuracy - then it was flash - somehow everyone has forgotten balance, drive and freedom of shoulders from self carriage. We now have a rule that says the curb rein MUST have some tension in it???? But NO rule saying that a curb that is held horizontal must be severely penalized? Heaven forbid that someone ride a GP horse off their snaffle rein in a test.

There is SO much circular logic presented here. I don't know HOW you folks manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth! But let me try and summarize what MBM was saying. HS placed 1st and 2nd in all the GP classes, with 2 different horses. HS is KNOWN to train in the traditional manner. It is nice to see that a classical trainer IS able to place near the top.

Now, in the spanish interrogation that followed, the question was raised that in some photos, HS's horse shows the flaws that are also seen in horses trained in rolkur. I do not believe that anywhere did MBM say that was OK - she just said that it seems to be what earns high marks, and HS is doing what it takes to win. The DIFFERENCE is that Wansuella ONLY shows the btv, trailing quarters problems IN THE EXTENDED TROT PHOTO not throughout the test. Other horses are btv in Every Photo. They show a dip behind the saddle in every photo. IF you can't see that, oh well. At least MBM didn't start making excuses about how Wansuella and Forrest are not perfect horses, with difficult temperments, and it is amazing that HS is able to make them as good as they are!!!!! Again, I think the top riders in the world MUST be able to pick and choose, and I think the arguement that their horses are inherently flawed just seems a little silly.

Now, I am sure you all will start to jump on me, and attack me, and that is fine - because I don't give a tiniest bit of a hoot about what you think of me. Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.

How about the first paragraph...we are condescending, silly to try to influence minds are already made up with attitudes to prove it, you will be glad to go home! I have never heard a soul on this board say that they thought it was fun to bait someone and fun to insult people they don't know.

slc2
Jul. 14, 2006, 09:13 AM
i absolutely love the 'I'm sorry that you believe' tack. That's priceless.

You guys need to relax a little bit.

egontoast
Jul. 14, 2006, 09:33 AM
am amazed you are unaware of the INTERNATIONAL discussions about current disturbing trends in dressage

Wow. International!! Try thinking for yourself.

slc2
Jul. 14, 2006, 09:45 AM
i don't totally agree with that statement, egon.

it's good to read what others are writing and see a variety of opinions.

but to paraphrase what we were told in Clinical Psychology (it's fine to write trashy pop psychology books, just don't ever be seen reading one), it's fine to read alot of opinions, but it is good to think for yourself.

just because something is said emphatically and has clever sounding 'reasons for being right', doesn't make it true. a little critical reading skill is good.

not everyone in the universe believes rollkur kills horses, and not everyone who thinks that is a stupid, ignorant or mean horse owner.

eqipoize
Jul. 14, 2006, 10:58 AM
I just might bother to find the exact place where someone posted that 'it was fun to bait someone' - it was said. And the comments made to mbm can Only be considered condesending. Are you saying the tone was anything less??? Or it is wrong to say something even if it is the truth?

Regarding the fact that rolkur is an international debate - excuse me, but there was a symposium on the matter hosted by the FEI!!!??? That is about as much evidence as I can offer that it is a matter that is attracting attention at the highest levels - World Wide. Do you disagree with this? Or do you simply debate it because it doesn't fit within your set of truths.

As far as thinking for myself - you used this stab on mbm as well. What gives you any indication that I do not? Have I endlessly been quoting other reports? no. Have I said my trainer told me? no. So, what evidence do you have that I am not a free thinker? In fact, I have some theories about the reason rolkur works that are from my own research into the work. I honestly think that the excessive flexion of the neck OVERCOMES the problem that most trainers will tell you occurs when a horse 'yeilds' at the poll in response to a half halt. When a horse has learned this trick, then when you try to engage the quarters, the horse simply folds his neck at the third vertebra and so the rider precieves a lightness, but the hind legs stay right where they were. With the neck already flexed to its maximum roundness, then the rider once again can influence the hind quarters. And personally, I don't deny that in a way, it Works. I think Anky Does influence her horses movements. I just think that the over flexion exceeds the acceptable parameters for horse training. I just personally feel that no matter what the level of competition, there are some things that are just unethical. Polling is outlawed, and I think it is unethical in the training of a jumper. Tying a horse's head up to the barn rafters over night, so that he is exhausted for his western pleasure class is unethical. Having hot shots in your spurs to get a faster spin out of a reining horse is unethical. Spurring a dressage horse until his sides bleed is unethical. All of these things are done by some trainers. They all produce winning results. None of them produce any proven long term physical damage. All of them are outlawed on show grounds. There is no jurisdiction for what is done at the home stables, so the 'techniques' go on. I think Rolkur fits right in with these sorts of training techniques. I consider it unethical because of the strain put on the horses neck. I think it seriously impairs the horse's ability to see where he is going. I think it is a method of domination, and I do not believe it is in accord with the general priciples of dressage.

As I said in my previous post, I do NOT think that rolkur riders hate their horses, I honestly don't think anyone in this industry hates horses - it doesn't make any sense, if you hate horses, you wouldn't spend your days and nights with them. You would sell motercycles or race speed boats or some other sport or business. So, the people who do unethical things to their horses, still Like their horses, and probably even give them exquisite care - because the people who do unethical things to their horses do them because they believe they will help them WIN a competition, and good care is part of that agenda. BUT they also Must believe that horses are inherently lazy and need to be MADE to excell - and that the chosen technique is acceptable because it works and it doesn't do permanent physical damage. However, I believe that the moment you are 'forcing' a horse to preform, the instant you start using intimidation to improve a horses preformance, in that moment, you have violated the generous nature of the horse. You have become a slave driver, a task master, NOT a partner, not a teacher. So, the relationship between horse and rider is flawed. AS long as you are Taking things from the horse, he Cannot Offer Anything. And that is anti dressage. And please note, all the mentioned techniques are banned from the showgrounds. So, at very least, the governing bodies feel that there is an appearance of cruelty or something and they don't want spectators seeing it in the warm up. I only ask that the same limitations be placed on a riding technique like Rolkur that stresses a horse, and upsets many spectators. I don't care WHO is using it, I don't care how much they win, I think it is unethical, and I think it should stay 'behind the barn'.

sabryant
Jul. 14, 2006, 11:42 AM
I just might bother to find the exact place where someone posted that 'it was fun to bait someone' - it was said. And the comments made to mbm can Only be considered condesending. Are you saying the tone was anything less??? Or it is wrong to say something even if it is the truth?

Regarding the fact that rolkur is an international debate - excuse me, but there was a symposium on the matter hosted by the FEI!!!??? That is about as much evidence as I can offer that it is a matter that is attracting attention at the highest levels - World Wide. Do you disagree with this? Or do you simply debate it because it doesn't fit within your set of truths.

As far as thinking for myself - you used this stab on mbm as well. What gives you any indication that I do not? Have I endlessly been quoting other reports? no. Have I said my trainer told me? no. So, what evidence do you have that I am not a free thinker? In fact, I have some theories about the reason rolkur works that are from my own research into the work. I honestly think that the excessive flexion of the neck OVERCOMES the problem that most trainers will tell you occurs when a horse 'yeilds' at the poll in response to a half halt. When a horse has learned this trick, then when you try to engage the quarters, the horse simply folds his neck at the third vertebra and so the rider precieves a lightness, but the hind legs stay right where they were. With the neck already flexed to its maximum roundness, then the rider once again can influence the hind quarters. And personally, I don't deny that in a way, it Works. I think Anky Does influence her horses movements. I just think that the over flexion exceeds the acceptable parameters for horse training. I just personally feel that no matter what the level of competition, there are some things that are just unethical. Polling is outlawed, and I think it is unethical in the training of a jumper. Tying a horse's head up to the barn rafters over night, so that he is exhausted for his western pleasure class is unethical. Having hot shots in your spurs to get a faster spin out of a reining horse is unethical. Spurring a dressage horse until his sides bleed is unethical. All of these things are done by some trainers. They all produce winning results. None of them produce any proven long term physical damage. All of them are outlawed on show grounds. There is no jurisdiction for what is done at the home stables, so the 'techniques' go on. I think Rolkur fits right in with these sorts of training techniques. I consider it unethical because of the strain put on the horses neck. I think it seriously impairs the horse's ability to see where he is going. I think it is a method of domination, and I do not believe it is in accord with the general priciples of dressage.

As I said in my previous post, I do NOT think that rolkur riders hate their horses, I honestly don't think anyone in this industry hates horses - it doesn't make any sense, if you hate horses, you wouldn't spend your days and nights with them. You would sell motercycles or race speed boats or some other sport or business. So, the people who do unethical things to their horses, still Like their horses, and probably even give them exquisite care - because the people who do unethical things to their horses do them because they believe they will help them WIN a competition, and good care is part of that agenda. BUT they also Must believe that horses are inherently lazy and need to be MADE to excell - and that the chosen technique is acceptable because it works and it doesn't do permanent physical damage. However, I believe that the moment you are 'forcing' a horse to preform, the instant you start using intimidation to improve a horses preformance, in that moment, you have violated the generous nature of the horse. You have become a slave driver, a task master, NOT a partner, not a teacher. So, the relationship between horse and rider is flawed. AS long as you are Taking things from the horse, he Cannot Offer Anything. And that is anti dressage. And please note, all the mentioned techniques are banned from the showgrounds. So, at very least, the governing bodies feel that there is an appearance of cruelty or something and they don't want spectators seeing it in the warm up. I only ask that the same limitations be placed on a riding technique like Rolkur that stresses a horse, and upsets many spectators. I don't care WHO is using it, I don't care how much they win, I think it is unethical, and I think it should stay 'behind the barn'.

I'm saying go back into the archives and look at some of the rollkur posts mbm made. I think the condescending manner started there!

As far as the FEI symposium: how can you judge a system/method of training by using a GREEN horse to this method of training as an example. In other words, the horse had never been trained in deep or RK until that day. How can anyone make a judgement on that? It preplexes and astounds me, to this day, that so many people came out of that symposium believing exactly what the symposium delegates wanted them to believe. Don't you get this????? It takes two or three years to develop the muscling on a horse to perform deep/rk in the correct manner. The symposium, to me, proves nothing. This is one of the reasons we say that you parrot what you have heard others tell you as the living truth. Getting back to the DR. HC links which you didn't approve because of the malfunction of the variables in her study, I would say the same thing about the symposium in considering the way it was approached to show the pitfalls of RK on a GREEN horse to this method of training.

mbm
Jul. 14, 2006, 12:38 PM
I'm saying go back into the archives and look at some of the rollkur posts mbm made. I think the condescending manner started there!



ok, i am tired of this..... either put up or shut up as the saying goes.... SHOW ME all the posts where i do all these things you are yammering on about.....

egontoast
Jul. 14, 2006, 01:06 PM
not everyone in the universe believes rollkur kills horses, and not everyone who thinks that is a stupid, ignorant or mean horse owner.]

Well, I didn't ever say either of those things. I said "think for yourself" in otherwords, just because certain people say so, doesn't make it true. For example, I was on a local board looking at the classifieds when I saw a post quoting the diatribes from the UDDB as truth. It's on an INTERRNATIONAL board. There are JUDGES there. It's GOSPEL!

That's the point. Just because it is discussed, doesn't necessarilly make it so.

eqipoize
Jul. 14, 2006, 01:22 PM
I'm saying go back into the archives and look at some of the rollkur posts mbm made. I think the condescending manner started there!

As far as the FEI symposium: how can you judge a system/method of training by using a GREEN horse to this method of training as an example. In other words, the horse had never been trained in deep or RK until that day. How can anyone make a judgement on that? It preplexes and astounds me, to this day, that so many people came out of that symposium believing exactly what the symposium delegates wanted them to believe. Don't you get this????? It takes two or three years to develop the muscling on a horse to perform deep/rk in the correct manner. The symposium, to me, proves nothing. This is one of the reasons we say that you parrot what you have heard others tell you as the living truth. Getting back to the DR. HC links which you didn't approve because of the malfunction of the variables in her study, I would say the same thing about the symposium in considering the way it was approached to show the pitfalls of RK on a GREEN horse to this method of training.

I am not sure which symposium you are considering. I am talking about the one in Lucern (I think? I would have to check the records, and I am short on time - just checking telephone between lessons, and multitasking on this!) Anyway, the one I am talking about was in Jan 2006 - and was purely discussion and presentations, no horses presented live. X rays of Bonfire and Salerino were shown as evidence that it doesn't damage the cervical vertebra, and the Gent from Australia talked about Learned Helplessness, and others talked about studies on the mobility of the back in relation to various head and neck postures. I will try to look up the link to the actual report later. There were about 20 presentations and a fair bit of after the fact discussions. It is the symposium where they began by redefining Rolkur as Hyperflexion. Which presentation are You talking about that showed a green horse being worked deep or in rolkur?

egontoast
Jul. 14, 2006, 01:32 PM
Thought you couldn't wait to leave here, moanie.

Karoline
Jul. 14, 2006, 02:51 PM
Thought this was a democracy, "bitchie".

See, how much your snipes add to the discussion?

Nada, zilch, zero.

egontoast
Jul. 14, 2006, 03:53 PM
Thought this was a democracy, "bitchie".

See, how much your snipes add to the discussion?

Nada, zilch, zero.



yeah, that was on a much higher level.

No, this isn't a democracy, it's a discussion board , more like a benevolent dictatorship.

Karoline
Jul. 14, 2006, 04:09 PM
That was exactly at your level.

That was the point.

Your attitude, which I am mirroring back to you, adds nothing.

tewhann
Jul. 14, 2006, 04:47 PM
It is a system of building muscles in the same way for horses as a gymnist. Granted, there are people that don't get this principle and it is from them that a system of training gets a bad reputation.

1. If it is needed to build muscles, why has it only recently become common?

2. What would happen to your horse if you DIDN'T build those "extra" muscles? Serious question. Do you think she wouldn't be as strong and supple over her topline, what?

eqipoize
Jul. 14, 2006, 05:23 PM
Thought you couldn't wait to leave here, moanie.
I don 't think I am moaning about anything.

I would be very surprized if anyone is able to give a reasonable answer to Tehwan's question, or to actually reply to anything I have said.

I have been back to ToB - but I am interested to see how this discussion resolves - or whether it simply dissolves into insults and name calling. Call it a morbid sense of curiosity.

sabryant
Jul. 14, 2006, 11:46 PM
1. If it is needed to build muscles, why has it only recently become common?

2. What would happen to your horse if you DIDN'T build those "extra" muscles? Serious question. Do you think she wouldn't be as strong and supple over her topline, what?

1-Deep training has been around for a long time. Since the 60's that I have known about.

2-I think the muscles can be built both ways. For me, it is easier to ride the horses hind end into the wither muscles if the neck is longer/lower. it makes it easier to put the hind end into the wither. I don't have to struggle with the horse against my hands when I train this way. If you don't build the muscle in front of the wither, you will always have a horse that struggles against your hand. If the neck of the horse, in front of the wither, is not the widest part of his neck or if from the side you can see a dip, there is a hole in your connection. Let me know if this makes sense.

Eqipoize, will answer your post in about an hour...just got back from eye doctor and my eyes are dialated so is harder to read a longer post. Just so you know, I have no bad feelings towards anyone at all. I think these boards are a great way to expound views. Some people get bitter, I try not too. It is hard sometimes though.

Sabine
Jul. 15, 2006, 01:42 AM
Sab- goodie- tell me more about getting him to step into the withers..I am - I think doing it and getting it- but I am eternally insecure about this...how does the mouth feel when he steps in- I know the feeling and it's like when the back comes really up- but how deep is the neck and where is the hand and how much do you have in the hand....>>>??? (not meaning to throw this off topic...:)

sabryant
Jul. 15, 2006, 02:14 AM
eqipoize

I never said that mbm didn't think for herself. I said she was in denial about a rider that she likes who happens to train in the classicals method and competes a horse that has similar gaits to Salinero. She blames Salinero's faulty gaits on the method in which he is trained. We were trying to understand her that her favorite rider's classically trained horse has the same faulty gaits. That is all.

some thread ago before udders crashed, I posted a similar post. So sorry to post it again. Nearly 20 years ago this same RK method of training a horse was used by olympic gold medalists. Of a sudden, the Dutch hot on the heels of the Germans, an article appears from a German magazine about the ills of RK and the ball is rolling and the FEI gets pressured. Keep in mind that one of the biggest industries in Germany and Holland is the horse industry. The mentality is to buy horses where the horses are winning. You, me and others like us are pawns in this controversey. and so it goes!

About the third vertabra. If that is where you ride the hind legs of the horse (to the 3rd v.), that is where the neck will break. Riding a horse to break there, in my mind, is riding the horse against the hands. the half halts/halts/movements will never execute because you have left out developing the muscle sections between the saddle and the 3rd v. Where is the only place on the horses neck that you cannot break (or lop, I think you called it?) Could it be the part of the neck just in front of the wither?

sabryant
Jul. 15, 2006, 02:33 AM
Sab- goodie- tell me more about getting him to step into the withers..I am - I think doing it and getting it- but I am eternally insecure about this...how does the mouth feel when he steps in- I know the feeling and it's like when the back comes really up- but how deep is the neck and where is the hand and how much do you have in the hand....>>>??? (not meaning to throw this off topic...:)


Goody for you! I like to ride the nose back toward the knees. The mouth/poll/jaw should always feel soft/supple. If he gets heavy, you need to make flexions inside/outside quickly until he is soft again. While making the flexions, your leg should be bumping the hind to the wither but not so much that he runs. Leg and hand should be 50/50 when making the aid until he lightens. When he lightens/carries himself, then you, immediately, lighten as the reward. The highest part of the neck should be just in front of the wither or the first 1/3's of the neck.

mbm
Jul. 15, 2006, 01:28 PM
Goody for you! I like to ride the nose back toward the knees. The mouth/poll/jaw should always feel soft/supple. If he gets heavy, you need to make flexions inside/outside quickly until he is soft again. While making the flexions, your leg should be bumping the hind to the wither but not so much that he runs. Leg and hand should be 50/50 when making the aid until he lightens. When he lightens/carries himself, then you, immediately, lighten as the reward. The highest part of the neck should be just in front of the wither or the first 1/3's of the neck.


what is the point of the flexions left/right? i have always heard this called hand riding. and in my experience (not as much as you but still).... its the forward activity that encourages the horse to lighten and be supple and soft.

mbm
Jul. 15, 2006, 01:40 PM
eqipoize

I never said that mbm didn't think for herself. I said she was in denial about a rider that she likes who happens to train in the classicals method and competes a horse that has similar gaits to Salinero. She blames Salinero's faulty gaits on the method in which he is trained. We were trying to understand her that her favorite rider's classically trained horse has the same faulty gaits. That is all.?

this is assuming an awful lot..... i have never had a conversation with anyone about what i think of Mr Schmidts horses so i am not sure how/where you get your info about what i think?

and, what are we to blame faulty gaits on if not the training and or the judges?

and i repeat for the last time:I posted that mr. schimdt won because the pro rollkures keep saying "where are all the classical horses - why are they not winning" well, yes, they are winning.

sabryant
Jul. 15, 2006, 03:18 PM
what is the point of the flexions left/right? i have always heard this called hand riding. and in my experience (not as much as you but still).... its the forward activity that encourages the horse to lighten and be supple and soft.


You are right. Of course it is the forward activity and that is why I included that the leg be on at the same time the flexions are applied. the flexions only last until the horse is light/self carrying then give immediately when the horse understands. 3 strides later, if horse gets heavy again, you apply the same aids until he learns full circles and long sides of self carriage. It is a process and it can talk a lot of time to teach the horse this self carriage. It is all about the timing of the aids and when timing is applied with relevence the horse learns very quickly.

sabryant
Jul. 15, 2006, 03:36 PM
this is assuming an awful lot..... i have never had a conversation with anyone about what i think of Mr Schmidts horses so i am not sure how/where you get your info about what i think?

and, what are we to blame faulty gaits on if not the training and or the judges?

and i repeat for the last time:I posted that mr. schimdt won because the pro rollkures keep saying "where are all the classical horses - why are they not winning" well, yes, they are winning.


You posted a link on one of the last rollkur threads of HS's test on Gump professing he was your favorite rider/trainer. Are you taking that back now? In the link you posted, HS's Gump had the same balance' in the piaffe, worse I thought than Salinero, and the horse was always with his left hind to the inside. I could see every aid he makes on the horse unlike Anky's ride. His right/left hand (can't remember which) was consistantly higher than his other hand. You, and others, have blamed many times that Anky's method of training causes the faulty gaits in her horses. I can't speak for the judges but I can speak for what I see. I see similar style horses that move in similar ways not because of some training deficiency but because of their conformation. And yes he might be winning but so is Anky. You blame bad judging or Anky's bad training when Salinero wins, but when HS wins you say that it is because of his wonderful classical background. I think you still don't get it. Oh well, waste of time to try to explain.

BornToRide
Jul. 15, 2006, 03:41 PM
People have bad days, horses have bad days, it's nothing unusual. What's unusual is the fact that this has morphed into a, what, 6 page thread about this very fact.......you guys are too funny.........:lol:

mbm
Jul. 15, 2006, 04:01 PM
you are assuming again. i have never had a conversation with anyone about how i feel about Mr Schmidt rides, except to say that i like FG and think he will have a good career ahead of him. oh and that i like the "feeling" of HS's rides.

i cant remember the actual thread but i do remember someone asking about that ride so i found the link.

and again ALL I DID WAS TO POINT OUT THAT YES, CLASSICAL IS WINNING.

period.

Mr Schimidt has my respect, and i love to watch him ride.... :)

eqipoize
Jul. 15, 2006, 04:24 PM
Wow. International!! Try thinking for yourself.
Sabryant - YOU have actually made some good points about how and when to work the horse in a deeper outline. You have stayed civil and have discussed the actual topic and NOT attacked anyone! I appreciate that, and I find our dialogue interesting and somewhat informative. It is Other people who seem to be lacking similar skills, and now I have noticed that they are no longer posting on this thread - probably a very positive turn of events.

Anyway, I still believe that you are NOT riding rolkur - because you very clearly stated you don't take your horses nose to their chests, and you are using the work to create the connection over the topline. You are not using extreme lateral flexions at all, and while you are taking noses to knees, you also say it is for a limited time while the horse develops the strength, and then you only revisit the work for warm up - and I assume NOT for 45 minutes.

Believe it or not - that is NOT against traditional training. While trainers such as Walter Zettl spend a great deal of time telling clinic participants "don't let him down there" - that is because the horses are completely incapable of doing the stretch without falling on their forhand and Losing their quarters. I also saw a session with a rider who had worked with him over a period of a couple of years, and with HER horse he was Very excited to see a good correct DEEP stretch - and in fact he had her ride it a little too long (by his own later confession) because he wanted auditors to SEE a Correct stretch! For the traditionalist - BALANCE comes First - the stretch Follows. I get the impression, from your posts, that you also don't simply pull your horse's head Down (draw reins do that So Well!) and rush him forward and convince yourself that you are stretching your horses topline.

Now, I may be giving you too much credit - maybe you DO pull your horse's head side to side, so the nose touches your boot. Maybe your horses Are dumping on their forehand, and rushing to try and stay upright. THAT is what I see far too often presented as Deep Forward work. But your posts seem far too thoughtful and aware to be doing that sort of work. I still think that if I saw your school your horses, I wouldn't have an overwhelming urge to jerk you off the saddle. Sadly, I DO get that feeling when I see show warmups and videos of some upper level riders 'Schooling' LDR.

Traditional dressage is NOT all about keeping the head up - it is all about getting the quarters activated and the horse balanced. Once THAT is in place, the skilled rider will indeed produce as much elasticity in the topline as can be created. Lateral and Longitudinal stretching is encouraged and sometimes that means a deep outline. But NEVER a broken neck line, and never deep and round at the cost of the ability of the hind legs to carry. Some Pro rolkur riders don't really seem to know what traditional dressage is all about. Either they rode with poor teachers, or they didn't work the program long enough to have any balance so that stretching Did become part of the work. I don't know. I just know that every classic trainer of merit KNOWS that horses Must have a flexible topline and Forward and down is a big part of that. If the hrose must drop BTV in the beginning, so what! As long as the open topline is the eventual goal, rather than a constricted one. I really believe that is how you are working as well, and I am sure I would like your horse's balance.

sabryant
Jul. 15, 2006, 04:36 PM
Thank you eqipoize for this nice post. I really appreciate that you understand what I've tried to explain. I hope you stay to this board as well as the other. I agree with you that there is never a need to be bitter. We are all trying to learn this very difficult art and bitterness gets in the way of learning anything at all. I have to giddy git so hope to see you around here a lot! Blessing to you!!!

egontoast
Jul. 15, 2006, 08:52 PM
I agree. I am glad that the person who said this has finally boarded the mothership.


Thought this was a democracy, "bitchie".

Karoline
Jul. 15, 2006, 09:50 PM
Have not. And I love how calling someone "moanie" is so much better then calling someone out on being mean.

I dont like bullies.

And Sabryant, very interresting posts and clear explanations. Thank you for sharing.

nero
Jul. 16, 2006, 01:18 AM
you are assuming again. i have never had a conversation with anyone about how i feel about Mr Schmidt rides, except to say that i like FG and think he will have a good career ahead of him. oh and that i like the "feeling" of HS's rides.

i cant remember the actual thread but i do remember someone asking about that ride so i found the link.

and again ALL I DID WAS TO POINT OUT THAT YES, CLASSICAL IS WINNING.

period.

Mr Schimidt has my respect, and i love to watch him ride.... :)
Sooo.....when Schmidt wins the judges are OK, getting it right, respecting classical principles, rewarding the 'right, correct' way etc, when Anky wins, the judges, probably the same judges in many cases, are wrong or incompetent or corrupt or rewarding expressive gaits over every thing else???? Having one's cake and eating it is the term that comes to mind here.

mbm
Jul. 16, 2006, 01:58 AM
Sooo.....when Schmidt wins the judges are OK, getting it right, respecting classical principles, rewarding the 'right, correct' way etc, when Anky wins, the judges, probably the same judges in many cases, are wrong or incompetent or corrupt or rewarding expressive gaits over every thing else???? Having one's cake and eating it is the term that comes to mind here.

huh. i dont remember saying any of that.....

i do recall posting that HS came in first and second in various GP classes.....

can you please help jog my memory and show me my posts where i said the above?

egontoast
Jul. 16, 2006, 05:28 AM
mbm, you did say those things . Go back and read the posts around the time you started talking about Schmidt.

And Karoline, I don't like bullies either which is why I don't let you get away with it.

PS see you at the scribing clinic!

mbm
Jul. 16, 2006, 12:40 PM
below is every post i made on this thread that has anything to do with HS and judges and showing.... please show me where i make the comments you are talking about.

thanks.


i just wanted to say congrats to Mr. Schmidt for being either first or second in all the GP classes - way to go !!!! i *love* his riding ability and i really like forrest gump.


i dont think anyone said that the halo effect was only about avg?

regards to Mr schmidt - i dont have time to look at the photos, but i know that his training is classical - he is just paying the bills by giving what the judges like....

and fwiw, we always hear about how come if, classical is so good, how come it doenst win? so i thought i would start pointing out that it DOES win.

:)


my 2 statemebts do not cancel each other out..... i have talked to *many* folks that train one way and ride another for a test..... in fact avg does the same...

so, while i may not agree with it, i understand it.

so..... someone may train classically and show with a more rounded outline - it is a choice that rides have to make. (altho as i said i didnt look at the pic and so am being very general in my comments)


your funny. :)

it you read what i posted i said i was answering VERY generally and not talking about the pic....

i disagree that judges dont like flashy front legs - its what wins.

and yes, i was VERY busy over the last week - i had a couple jobs that were very time sensitive... and didnt want to get in a huge discussion about this - its pointless... you are clearly very bitter and have huge chip on your shoulder re: me. <shrug> i dont really care.

i just wanted to give HUGE props to mr schmidt for again showing that yes, classical does win. !! :) :)


i am not sure what you folks want ??

i cant answer for what that pic represents..... do i like what i see? no. but so what? that does not change the fact that mr. schmidt trains classically and that he is winning.

and no, i am not the one between a rock and a hard place... that would be the folks that are showing and that have to choose between doing what is correct and doing what the judges are rewarding at this time..

and i dont see how anyone can say that judges are not rewarding high front leg action, a "rounded" outline, and the "wow" factor. so, i would imagine that those that want to stay on top will try to produce what the judges want to see. wasnt there an article by Krya that said that they, as riders, need to do what the judges want?

as far as criticizing judges. i dont think anyone is above criticizing if warranted. i have no hero worship. i *do* think that folks deserve respect - but that doesnt mean no criticizing.

if you think about how judges are picked and who pays them it makes sense that they would try to please the show organizers and the show organizers want to please the topriders so that they come back again, and everyone wants to please the crowd. the judges do what makes them popular because that is what makes them a hot, wanted commodity - if judges score using the whole range of numbers or score low they get slammed... no one wants to ride under them. - i dont have any direct experience at int'l levels but i would guess it is the same (?) .... an unpopular judge is not going to be asked back. a popular judge is. all of this could be alleviated if there were a system of picking judges that was totally random and if the judges were paid out of a fund. (of course i am guessing how the int'l judges are paid/picked because i donut know - and the above comments are based on what i see/know from the US) )

and i have every right to voice my opinion as the next girl. you wont know this because you dont know me.... but i can guarantee you that i dont parrot anyone.... i am a VERY individual person and i spent a lot of time researching, reading and thinking. i have a mind of my own - and i also have no problem changing my mind or admitting if i am wrong.

what is ironic is that some here say that there is a party line on the UDBB and that they are not allowed to voice an opinion outside of that.... well... here i am voicing an opinion that is different than the party line here on COTH - and lo and behold - i am being slammed for it. interesting.

anyway.... as i wanted to point out classical riders/trainers DO win at the highest levels of our sport.



....as for the rest of your post - i NEVER made any comments about anything other than to say that contrary to what many people say, classical horses are WINNING. i made no other statement about anything, nor did i argue at all about HS or his horses or his faults etc.

its nice to be thought of as this monster and i am really enjoying the power (especially the part of being known worldwide) , but seriously..... i aint all that ;)

egontoast
Jul. 16, 2006, 12:53 PM
HUH? If classically trained horses are winning, then how can you say that the judges are rewarding the wrong training?

I know you will not want to answer this but which is more correct, the extended trot photo of Schmidt that you don't have time to look at or the photo of Barteau's horse at the beginning of this thread that you apparently do have time to look at?

mbm
Jul. 16, 2006, 01:04 PM
HUH? If classically trained horses are winning, then how can you say that the judges are rewarding the wrong training?

I know you will not want to answer this but which is more correct, the extended trot photo of Schmidt that you don't have time to look at or the photo of Barteau's horse at the beginning of this thread that you apparently do have time to look at?


no matter what i say you will slam me. i understand that now (yeah, i am slow, i know - i guees i try to see the good in folks) . you dont want a discussion. you just want to be right. so i am done.

have fun.

egontoast
Jul. 16, 2006, 02:58 PM
That was a reasonable question based on what you have posted. Your refusal to answer a reasonable question speaks volumes.

yes, run away when the question is too hard for you.

mbm
Jul. 16, 2006, 06:05 PM
ok, just since you called me chicken i will answer you.

i am more than happy (and always interested in) having a productive discussion. however you do not seem to want to discuss - from my vantage point it looks like you want to nag, grill and find fault. that is not having a conversation.

FWIW, I have no answers for you and all i am willing/able to say on the subject at this point, is already included in my posts.

if you truley are interested in a dialog great, i will have a dialog with you .... -
but i dont feel that is what you are looking for, and since you are posting anonymously you dont have any consequences in real life to how you act here.

so i am going to go and expend my energy in a more postive atmosphere and endevor.

enjoy your sunday :)

Dressage Art
Jul. 16, 2006, 06:25 PM
Hmm... I tried to read some of the posts, but got lost in the fluff quite fast...
PS: Also, I know some of you are from N. California and will be attending scribing clinic next weekend. We all can go to the dinner after the scribing clinic and have a stimulating dressage talk and a groop hug at the end.

Karoline
Jul. 16, 2006, 06:39 PM
As long as there are no steak knifes. Perhaps chopsticks would be safer for all?

Just Kidding my Dressage Art, I would not want to embarrass you since you so nicely made this happen for me. Looking forward to the experience.

Dressage Art
Jul. 16, 2006, 06:42 PM
Hmm, Karolyn, I'm having a hard time imagining you being nasty. I think the internet makes it easy to get missunderstood, take MBM and me, for example, we can't see eye to eye on the internet, but fine in the real life. So who knows.... may be egontoast will be your next best pal?

Karoline
Jul. 16, 2006, 06:59 PM
DressageArt is thy name....Having met you both, I have to say its been a real pleasure - you are both very considerate of your horses and not just fun to be around, but interresting to boot. Perhaps it will be a lovefest after all. Hey, you will be there, so already I aint so worried.

As to this discussion, for me its not about saying one trot is bad and one is good, its is understanding what the qualities are that make it better/less compared to what I have learned via reading, what I have seen in life/videos/clinic and what my trainer or professionals have discussed with me.

I suggested on TOB that perhaps there is a way to run photos through an imaging program, keep the outline, dull everything else so that that indentity or rider/horse becomes irrelevant - that may remove the sting of 'critic" and allow the discussion to focus more on "academic" points -like when we compare an ODG and a contemporary image. For me, the best trot falls probably in the middle of the two as there are qualities of each I like. But I also know as an amateur that I can like something that is incorrect just because it looks good.

It should be really interresting to everyone that good riders on each board are looking at the same images and have completely split opinions. Not mbm and I, but folks like Sabryant and Gallop, Equipoize and Monica S, etc...folks who certainly know a bit more then average joe rider.

This is why I get mad when some posters get bullied and persecuted for asking questions, because those questions do open up discussions that are interresting. Like what is an extended trot, really. Or getting clarification on what Sab calls riding the hindleg into the withers. These are discussions we would not have save for these threads.

nero
Jul. 16, 2006, 08:38 PM
That was a reasonable question based on what you have posted. Your refusal to answer a reasonable question speaks volumes.

yes, run away when the question is too hard for you. Agreed.

I truly do not understand the 'victim' mentality you adopt mbm. You throw out some pretty 'out there' arguments, with some pretty 'definite' thoughts which steadfastly and dogmatically 'diss' rk and support classical - black and white type arguments - and in these arguments you demonstrate some inconsistencies, and then you fail to back them up with any logic. One doesn't have to be an equine master to present a rational argument, logical thought processes are not monopolised by those who have only studied and trained and ridden extensivley. I think if you are going to be so outspoken against a training method and a style of rider/horse then you really should be able to back it up with some solid argument. No point making such outrageous claims then running away claiming victimisation the first time someone notes discrepancies or inaccuracies in your arguments. People don't 'pick' on you for fun mbm, they do so because you are so opinionated and then run away from backing it up, claiming lack of of knowledge, wanting to 'truly' learn or being beat up, sorry to say, but you kind of ask for the treatment you get.

mbm
Jul. 16, 2006, 09:10 PM
OMG. i am so sick of you folks. really. i was trying to be polite. i guess that doenst work around here. if you dont like my posts - dont read them and dont respond to them - its that simple. you can also just put me on your ignore list.

nero
Jul. 16, 2006, 09:18 PM
OMG. i am so sick of you folks. really. i was trying to be polite. i guess that doenst work around here. if you dont like my posts - dont read them and dont respond to them - its that simple. you can also just put me on your ignore list.

Honey YOU INVITE responses, maybe you should ask questions and then say afterwards, 'but only people who will agree with me should respond' if you don't like it. If you are sick of us, then maybe YOU should use the ignore button???????

Dalfan
Jul. 16, 2006, 09:32 PM
I would have to agree with those who also find it beneficial for training the eye to discern aspects of correctness. Not just other riders, but my own vids and pics. I also find it extremely helpful to watch very good riders and try to emulate what I see. That DOES NOT always work out the way I wish though;)
I find you mbm, more willing on this board to really mix it up with other posters. You are definitely more tenacious:) In fact, I'm really impressed with this board as compared to the "other". Much more diversity. I find I spend more time here since ole "suzy" came back up.

eqipoize
Jul. 17, 2006, 11:07 AM
Believe it or not, I am going to bring this discussion back to its humble beginnings. OP - Anky didn't win at Lingen on Painted Black or Krack C. this was presented as evidence that the judges are Not guilty of giving inflated scores to Anky. I still say that the results at Lingen prove that the judges AT Lingen This Year, didn't rate Anky highest. This does Not really say anything about past judging of Salerino and without seeing the preformances, it doesn't even prove that she wasn't given generous marks - I haven't had a chance to work through all the wonderful video that Theo put up on the internet. The scrolling menu makes it a little tougher for me to see if there are any Lingen rides shown. Anyway, does ANYONE out there know how well PB or KC did - beyond the scores - did they blow a line of changes, spook at a camera, stumble crossing X??? Or were their rides really beautiful, and maybe unjustly marked Low??? I don't know, and again, I only questioned the faulty logic presented in the OP.

Then we have a somewhat related topic that developed. That Hubertus Schmidt, whom most people agree is pretty traditional in his training techniques, managed to place 1st and 2nd at this event. MBM pointed out this fact, saying that in the past, RK supporters had said, 'if classical training is so great, why doesn't it win? If classical supporters want to prove their system works, they need to have someone train in that manner, and then show and win". So, when that happened, MBM pointed it out. Which then brought out a host of various disclaimers - why what Wansuela showing a poor quality extension? I answered that one, and in a way, so did MBM - we feel that the extension shown is EXACTLY what the judges Like to see - so HS manages to produce it. Next - If HS won, then clearly the judges are NOT corrupt, so we are back to the original post - using a singular instance to try and prove that Past episodes of generous scoring were absolutely correct. Now, I don't live and die by the international dressage scene, so I don't know who was on the Lingen panel, and I don't know which of these judges were behind the letters at the recent World record setting events or even at the Olympics a couple years ago. So, I don't know if Any conclusions can be drawn about this set of results.

I CAN say that possibly we are seeing a Positive Trend for dressage. MAYBE. And I don't mean that I want Anky to lose - because I rather LIKE her! I just want to see the judging of competitive dressage find its way back to the original concepts of balance and self carriage - demonstrating a harmonious relationship between rider and horse. If we start to see Ingrid Klimke, HS, and a number of other riders who hold tight to the traditional training techniques - continue to actually WIN and not just linger in the top 10, THEN we will know that there is little difference between classical and competitive dressage. But it will take more than a single show to really indicate that - and personally, I ain't holding my breath.

Horsedances
Jul. 17, 2006, 11:27 AM
http://anky.nl/anky/news.php?language=EN&id=2002

Bronte
Jul. 17, 2006, 12:22 PM
Great pics, thanks for posting Horsedances.

Yes, lets wait for WEG, personally, I think Anky is unbeatable currently.

I am a judge (upto 4th), and do a lot of scribing at the CDI level. No FEI judge that I have worked for has any problem using the full range of marks, or any problem marking what they see, regardless of the rider. These people are very educated. Also the riders are very educated, riders who choose to ride deeper, and riders who choose to not practice deep. Regardless, they are ALL very educated in all training methods. These elite riders spend 8 hours + per day in the saddle and under instruction, for years and years. You had better believe, they can ride!!

mbm, you do bring grief raining down on your head. You are so dogmatic, and use the word *I* very frequently. At the same time, you are very open(and good for you for posting your videos), about having difficulty posting and sitting Sophie's new more energetic trot. Don't you see the disconnect between your experience level and your opinions?

slc2
Jul. 17, 2006, 12:28 PM
"OMG. i am so sick of you folks. really. i was trying to be polite. i guess that doenst work around here. if you dont like my posts - dont read them and dont respond to them "

you take the cake. you absolutely and totally take the cake. more than anyone else here - EVER.

'if you don't agree with me, don't post'.

or else what? what exactly are you going to DO to people who 'respond to them' after you ORDERED them not to?

when you have the power to not only say whatever you want and never have anyone disagree with you in this world, let me know.

i think in order to get that, you'll need to start your OWN bulletin board and monitor it VERY carefully yourself, ROFLMAO!!!!!

Horsedances
Jul. 17, 2006, 12:42 PM
Great pics, thanks for posting Horsedances.

Yes, lets wait for WEG, personally, I think Anky is unbeatable currently.

I am a judge (upto 4th), and do a lot of scribing at the CDI level. No FEI judge that I have worked for has any problem using the full range of marks, or any problem marking what they see, regardless of the rider. These people are very educated. Also the riders are very educated, riders who choose to ride deeper, and riders who choose to not practice deep. Regardless, they are ALL very educated in all training methods. These elite riders spend 8 hours + per day in the saddle and under instruction, for years and years. You had better believe, they can ride!!

mbm, you do bring grief raining down on your head. You are so dogmatic, and use the word *I* very frequently. At the same time, you are very open(and good for you for posting your videos), about having difficulty posting and sitting Sophie's new more energetic trot. Don't you see the disconnect between your experience level and your opinions?

But here we have the problem, posters on all these BB's don't spend 8 hours + per day in the saddle of their horses. Most riders start (and not only the topriders) at 6.00 in the morning riding their own horses, and after 1/2 hour lunch they start training their students, and at 19.00 hours they start giving clinics etc....

This is exactly the problem on BB's: The most preachers over here are keyboard riders and trainers (not all of them , but you can easily recognize them when you look at their amount of postings).
As stated before Sjef once posted on a BB and stated "If you all spend the same time in the saddle as you do behind your keyboard Anky would have much more competitors"

mbm
Jul. 17, 2006, 02:32 PM
mbm, you do bring grief raining down on your head. You are so dogmatic, and use the word *I* very frequently. At the same time, you are very open(and good for you for posting your videos), about having difficulty posting and sitting Sophie's new more energetic trot. Don't you see the disconnect between your experience level and your opinions?

i use the term "I" becuase i was taught that is how you have a discussion.

and fwiw, i dont have any trouble sitting or posting my horses trot - what i posted about was how do i keep improving my ability to allow her to become more and more supple and elastic when i only ride one horse per day?? that is a bit diffetnt that how you make it sound.... (and if i am such a shitty rider *how* exactly did she get this new trot??)

i know i am not the best rider around (and i have said that many times) i also know that i am better than some of the people here that act like they know it all. (i have seen them ride)

i have come to believe that most of the people here dont care about discussion - they want to preach and condem. (shrug).

i wil continue on my journey of trying to learn as much as possible.

you all can have fun pulling each other down.

Bronte
Jul. 17, 2006, 02:55 PM
From UDBB


Posted: 02 Jul 2006 00:34 Post subject: riding the "expressive" and athletic horse - help.

sophie is blossoming - and remembering how to be (very) athletic in her body - very elastic.

how the heck am i going to be able to really ride this without bouncing and banging her on her back? (in trot) ...



also, sitting the trot isnt so much of an issue. it is posting the trot that is an issue.



:confused:

Karoline
Jul. 17, 2006, 03:14 PM
You should be so lucky as to have a horse that has so much energy and elasticity that you are concerned about being able to ride her gaits well without blocking or compromising them or compromising rider seat and suppleness.

I recently saw a clinic with an FEI rider who is a high scorer at recognized show at I1 and I2 (74% at I1 was her last score on one horse) She was riding her young, upcoming horse, had shown him at 3rd with very good results and was consulting the clinician because with all her experience, she had difficulties because his gaits are so bouncy she had problems when regulating his forward and was concerned that it was compromising her seat and own balance.

She was like mbm HONEST about what she was facing, which is a good problem to have by the way. My retired trainer who is 75 and has been around the block a few times, told me it was one of the most honest thing she had ever seen. In fact, she was surprised the rider was so candid within earshot of another 50 people. Because we know what happens when happens when a rider admits to not being perfect, dont we?

I also remember a couple of GP riders and very established riders at the Lisa Wilcox Northern California seminar who did not have the same honesty and looked as though they were compromising all over the place to stay with their horses. I understand that the instruction they received did not make LW welcome again. Same things happened when Christine Stuckleburger visited almost 10 years ago. Her honesty was refreshing.

I think it is a credit to mbm and other riders who speak about what they face in their training honestly at the risk of sounding like complete beginners. Yes, you can have a good seat and understanding of the aids, and then meet a horse that is the next step up in terms of forward and gaits and have to adjust.

You guys need to read for comprehension.

nero
Jul. 17, 2006, 09:11 PM
Believe it or not, I am going to bring this discussion back to its humble beginnings. OP - Anky didn't win at Lingen on Painted Black or Krack C. this was presented as evidence that the judges are Not guilty of giving inflated scores to Anky. I still say that the results at Lingen prove that the judges AT Lingen This Year, didn't rate Anky highest. This does Not really say anything about past judging of Salerino and without seeing the preformances, it doesn't even prove that she wasn't given generous marks -

If classical supporters want to prove their system works, they need to have someone train in that manner, and then show and win". So, when that happened, MBM pointed it out. Which then brought out a host of various disclaimers - why what Wansuela showing a poor quality extension? I answered that one, and in a way, so did MBM - we feel that the extension shown is EXACTLY what the judges Like to see - so HS manages to produce it.

Well my original point was that Anky doesn't just get Anky points, meaning they don't just see Anky on a horse an award her the points automatically, SHE probably is judged fairly - as witnessed by her other horses that DON'T win, and that my conclusion from this was that maybe Salinero wins because he is the best, not because the judges opinions are clouded by whatever.

And secondly, well I doubt very much that a) the judges WANT to see an unengaged trot, b) I doubt very much that the competitors TRY to create an unengaged trot - what rider in their right minds would and c) I believe the horses are winning DESPITE this comparitively unengaged trot not BECAUSE of it and as we don't know the scores that these individual movements get from the judges from either Schmidt, Anky, Brink etc that we can't assume that this is what the judges DO want. Weltall is fantastically engaged in his ext trot and get 9s for it, Salinero not so much and he gets 7s. I would suggest that the judges are very much wanting to see engagement in ext trot and mark accordingly when they don't see it enough, BUT that these horses with this style of trot do so much else so well they win or get high scores anyway.