People with IR Horses- I need your help please!

[MyAlterSaidWhat?!]

I am obviously posting under an alter- I do not want to be flamed for whatever decision I ultimately make.

I have a horse that shows the classic IR signs and has previously foundered. Horse is currently stable on the IR emergency diet and Pergolide, and horse does NOT go out at any time without a muzzle on. Horse is in a small drylot with hay 14-15 hours per day and out with a muzzle on the rest of the time. Horse gets footsore when turned out on grass for even an hour at a time without the muzzle on. I happen to live in the land of the richest grass in the whole damn country- Bluegrass, and horse's system can't handle said bluegrass.

Problem #1: When left up in the drylot for more than two days, horse's legs stock up so badly they are swollen from hoof to knee/hock

Problem #2: Horse has begun to get mouth sores the size of quarters on the lips from rooting around for grass while wearing the muzzle. The gums are very irritated, and there is now a sore erupting where a tattoo would go on a racehorse.

Problem #3: Horse is pretty green, although WTC and jumping small jumps and definitely capable of more, as long as owner keeps horse on strict diet, turnout, and Pergolide (only $30/month- not bad as far as supplements go), but horse is not necesarily sale-able right now. Horse is important to me, and I am thinking of moving to a state with less vegetation in a year anyway since I am allergic to bluegrass and all other things that grow here, but I don't know if horse can hold out for another year without rubbing its entire face raw.

My options that I can think of so far are:
1) Turn horse out for 8 hours at a time at night and pray and hope for no more founder, since with any more rotation I believe horse will be permanently crippled
2) Try and sell/lease horse to someone in a state with very poor vegetation, i.e. Florida, Georgia, Arizona, New Mexico, etc.
3) Try to deal with problem for now by putting sheepskin inside muzzle and leaving it on horse as is

So: What would you do? Will moving the horse to another state help with the IR problem if the grass isn't so rich? Would anybody even consider buying this horse with the health issues, even if the horse came with an instruction manual for keeping it sound and healthy?

[BornToRide]

First of all IR and Cushings are not the same. Pergolide should only be given if the horse truly has cushings. has he been diagnosed with Cushings?

What does the emergency IR diet look like? Does he get magnesium supplementation? IR horse often do much better with added Mg. Adding fat to the diet will slow down the sugar uptake which is the primary problem with IR horses.

IR horses tend to be matabolically susceptible to laminitis and founder and as you pointed out correctly, once they had an episode , they will be even more prone to another. I would consider not turning this horse out on pasture at all and fed low carb grass hay, possibly several times a day , in small amounts, spread throughout his paddock, ideally with some oil, such as perhaps black oil sunflower seeds. Is that feasible?

[Cherry]

I am obviously posting under an alter- I do not want to be flamed for whatever decision I ultimately make.

First of all, this is a sad commentary on the state of our bulletin board.

My guess is that someone would buy him, but just who that someone is I cannot tell you. Hopefully it would be someone who knows more about horses than the average person though. My experience has been that you can tell people how to feed the horse you are selling them but in the end they will do what they darn well please and then scratch their heads about why the horse has colicked, foundered, etc..... Most people (even people who have owned horses for years and years) do not understand the relationship between what you feed a horse and the horse's disposition and health, or lack thereof.... :uhoh:

How large is this drylot? Is it possible to bring in a truckload of shredded mulch or something to that effect to basically provide a cushion for your horse to stand on. Stocking up isn't necessarily life threatening but I wouldn't be happy about it either.... If you could do that I might just leave the horse in the drylot and not turn out on grass again, or for not as long. I don't think I'd turn it out on grass at night--what if it slipped its grazing muzzle? You'd have more of a problem because no one would notice for hours and hours and by that time it could be too late.

Adding Lysine, an amino acid, to your horse's diet will help those sores to heal quicker. It can be purchased through KV Vet, Valley Vet, at some tack stores or you can buy Lysine anywhere they sell supplements (a pharmacy)--two or three tablets of the 1,000 mg. once a day in the feed should help resolve the sores.

Why did the vet put your horse on the Pergolide?

[Hoofprince in Mud]

Have you had blood work done so you have a more accurate picture of what is going on with this horse?
You say he is IR (insulin resistant), and you have him on Pergolide, which is used for horses with Cushings. Two different issues here.
Have you had his thyoid levels checked?
The Emergency Diet (per yahoo groups EquineCushings) is a really good start, but you need to have make sure all the supplements you feed the horse are balanced against the bulk (hay) your horse is eating. You can get Dr Kellon on the list to help you, or you can use the spreadsheets available as a member of the group is workout for yourself. If this doesn't appeal, there are companies who will do it for you, and make custom blends for what the horse needs.
What type of hay are you feeding this horse, and what is the non-structural carbohydrate level present in the hay? You might want to check out alternative sources of roughage available in the area you live in. For a horse who has IR problems, the NS level needs to be below 12 percent. This I have personally discovered is really really important, as I have a horse, who's IR levels have gone from 360 to 20 (normal range 30 to 10) after lowering the NS levels. When he was on a restricted (emergency) diet, he wasn't loosing weight, in fact, he foundered at this point.
Is it at all possible for you to enlarge the non-grazing space this horse has available? This would help with the stocking up problem, as would giving the horse more exercise via hand walking, lunging, riding, whatever the horse is capable of handling each day. Exercise is also going to help the horse and is important, if the horse is stable, and there is no lamanitis or foundering currently occuring. You mention when your horse in turned out on grass without a muzzle, he becomes lame.
Is this because he is having a lamanitic eposide?
Are his hooves hot?
Does the digital pulse increase?
If he is lamanitic, what are you doing to make him comfortable?
(The process my horse's vet and I have established is administering bute, and soaking the horse's feet in a slurry of ice water -- it works for us.)
What does your farrier say about the state of your horses hooves? (Is he/she noticing any changes to the white line, etc).
Having a vet x-ray the hooves might be very important to see what is happening inside the hoof wall, so you, your farrier and your vet can determine how best to trim the hooves for the horse's comfort and future soundness.
About the grazing muzzle -- this is of minor concern, compared with the potential damage that could occur to your horse's hooves from foundering.
In answer to your direct questions:

<Quote>Problem #1: When left up in the drylot for more than two days, horse's legs stock up so badly they are swollen from hoof to knee/hock<Unquote>

Exercise, Exercise, Exercise.

<Quote>Problem #2: Horse has begun to get mouth sores the size of quarters on the lips from rooting around for grass while wearing the muzzle. The gums are very irritated, and there is now a sore erupting where a tattoo would go on a racehorse.<Unquote>

Sorry, but I think you'd be better off not turning him out until the sore heals, and you have address the IR problem. I know this sounds pretty harsh, but having a horse who has foundered is an even worse nightmare than sores on the horse's gums.

<Quote>Problem #3: Horse is pretty green, although WTC and jumping small jumps and definitely capable of more, as long as owner keeps horse on strict diet, turnout, and Pergolide (only $30/month- not bad as far as supplements go), but horse is not necesarily sale-able right now. Horse is important to me, and I am thinking of moving to a state with less vegetation in a year anyway since I am allergic to bluegrass and all other things that grow here, but I don't know if horse can hold out for another year without rubbing its entire face raw.<Unquote>

If the horse founders, the horse will be jumping no more. If you wish to keep the horse in good health until your planned move (and after), you need to address the IR problem now, and get all the excess weight off the horse, for the good of his health. It may mean you have to move the horse to a situation where he has a larger dry lot, if you can't make a larger drylot for him where he is. The kindest gift you can give this horse is helping him to loose weight.

<Quote>My options that I can think of so far are:
1) Turn horse out for 8 hours at a time at night and pray and hope for no more founder, since with any more rotation I believe horse will be permanently crippled<Unquote>

Praying isn't good enough. Drylot. Drylot. Drylot. Exercise, Exercise. Exercise. Strictly monitored diet. Strictly monitored diet. Strictly monitored diet. Excellent regular farrier work. Excellent regular farrier work. Excellent regular farrier work. You get the picture.

<Quote>2) Try and sell/lease horse to someone in a state with very poor vegetation, i.e. Florida, Georgia, Arizona, New Mexico, etc.<Unquote>

Poor "vegetation" may or may not work -- http://www.safergrass.org/

<Quote>3) Try to deal with problem for now by putting sheepskin inside muzzle and leaving it on horse as is<Unquote>

This sounds like a nice idea, but how well would the sheepskin protect after the horse has been drinking water, and is soaking wet? (Grazing muzzle's are designed so the horse can still drink water).

So: What would you do? Will moving the horse to another state help with the IR problem if the grass isn't so rich? Would anybody even consider buying this horse with the health issues, even if the horse came with an instruction manual for keeping it sound and healthy?

1. Make sure the horse was on limited Non Structural Carbohydrates (below 12%).
2. Make sure his vitamin and mineral intake was balanced.
3. Limit the horse to a drylot until horse had lost the weight necessary to not have an IR problem.
4. Increase the amount of exercise the horse is getting.
5. Have the horse's vet draw blood to assess the horse's IR levels.
6. Work with the farrier and the vet to make sure the horse's hooves were trimmed according to the needs of the horse.
7. Provide a companion for the horse either beside or in his drylot.

I'm sorry if I come across as being harsh. But I have discovered from my own horse foundering from IR (he wasn't on grass, he was on hay), I would now do anything in my power to prevent it from happening again with this horse or any horse in my care. Managing a horse before it has foundered is much easier than managing a horse who has foundered.
Good luck to you, and your horse.

[marta]

about pergolide as other posters. if only IR then why is he getting pergolide?

i disagree w/ hoofprinceinmud statement about weight loss and IR. my mare lost considerable amount of weight last fall and remained underweight until may of this year. this didn't help her in any way w/ re to carb tolerance. she developed laminitis as usual in april. so while managing weight is a good thing it will not make IR go away.

my mare is suspected of being IR although her blood work is inconclusive. she's likely borderline but since she's developed laminitis on pasture 3 years in a row, we're treating her as if she's IR. i went the muzzle route last summer after her 2nd outbreak of laminitis. i know what you mean about the sores on the muzzle. she was getting callouses on her muzzle and it was starting to rub the top of her nose. i was attempting to stitch a piece of sheepskin (a small square) to the muzzle but then i gave up altogether. she was on 24/7 turnout back then and we ended up taking the muzzle off for periods of time (so she'd have it on for 16 hours and then off for 8, etc). but that's gambling. you just never know.

i now have her in a dry lot, no muzzle, all she gets is hay (april through november). there are 2 lots and they differ in size. one is smaller than the other. she's not stocking up. i was worried about that as well. i'm wondering if they spread your horses hay around in small piles, forcing him to walk around rather than stand in one spot while eating the hay, if that would resolve the stocking up issue? also, did you try magnesium oxide? i haven't but apparently it helps a lot of IR horses and it's cheap. is he on any mineral supplements? maybe his nutrional needs are not being met with the hay he's getting?

i think it'd be a shame to get rid of a horse you like, especially in light of your plans to move. if this dry lot situation can't be improved, could you possibly find a different place w/ a bigger dry lot? (if you think stocking up is a result of him not moving enough).

take it easy. it sounds like his condition can be managed. good luck!

[summerhorse]

I would make the lot bigger and bring in loads of sand to get rid of any grass (thus any rooting) (also any grass near the fences), keep hay in front at all times and if you don't have a hot walker either lunge or ride more often. But a bigger lot and putting the hay in different spots so he has to walk all over to get it would help. Good luck!

NO GRASS TURNOUT! =)

[EqTrainer]

Ditto the Pergolide. I would put him on Chaste Tree Berry instead, as it may help him either way.

The stocking up... this is not news you want to hear but I bet he's not stocking up in the traditional sense, but retaining fluids due to his overall compromised circulation from being IR. So that would be a sign to me that I did not have his diet under control. I remember being my IR horse stocking up before; he does not now that his diet is working for him.

Diet - the hay needs to be orchard grass or timothy, fescue is not good, nor is any type of legume. Personally I have found that my IR horse cannot tolerate ANY type of commercial feeds. He gets beet pulp, BOSS, flax, a good vitamin/min supplement, sel/E, 1/2 dose of Remission, an extra scoop of MagOx and Chaste Tree Berry. He is stable and has gained weight and energy on this diet. He gets free choice Orchard grass hay and is on a semi-dry lot. His feet SEEM to be stable but who really knows?

If you cannot exercise this horse regularly can you put a friend with him.. preferably one who chases him around ;)

Whatever you chose to do, I would never flame you for it. I still look my IR horse over every day with a critical eye.. he had laminitic flareups for years before I got him and a pretty bad one in March before I realized what was going on. He does not appear to have rotation or sinking.. but if I ever think I cannot manage him to be comfortable I will put him down. I would never sell him or even give him away; it's been a tough road figuring out how to help him and every little thing matters. I could not put that on someone else. I think you will find people here very sympathetic as to how difficult it is to manage a horse in this scenario.

[marta]

but I bet he's not stocking up in the traditional sense, but retaining fluids due to his overall compromised circulation from being IR. So that would be a sign to me that I did not have his diet under control. I remember being my IR horse stocking up before; he does not now that his diet is working for him.



thanks for posting that. i switched barns in february and we went from 24/7 turnout to a stall board (w/ long turnout period). i was v. concerned b/c at the old barn the few times that i kept my mare in at night, she stocked up. and here she was going to be in a stall daily. but to my surprise, no stocking up. her diet changed dramatically w/ the move as well but i never put these factors together.

[ToN Farm]

Nothing you wrote should result in getting flamed. Since I could care less if I get flamed, I'll respond with what I think.

First of all, I'm getting really sick of all this parotting of Eleanor Kellon. She is providing a good service on her forum, but she isn't God and she can be wrong. Same thing with safergrass.org. If all these berries and bloodtests were working, then we wouldn't have any horses lame from IR related laminitis, now would we? The insulin resistence theory is really rather new, and not totally proven. It seems like everybody is jumping on this bandwagon.

As for pergolide not working and getting prescribed for non-cushings horses, that is your opinion, but not that of many good vets. Pergolide, according to some vets, provides help to the laminitic horse other than for the pituitary problem. I have my non-cushings 7 year old mare on it, and it has helped with the laminitis. I tried taking her off it, and she went into the acute phase. As soon as I put her back on it, she recovered.

Now, on to the OP's problem. First you say the mare is important to you, and then you talk about selling her (him?). Which is it? My opinion is that the horse is not saleable to anyone that would provide the right environment and care. If you don't care what happens to her after the sale, then I suppose she would sell at a low price, assuming she is not crippled.

Since I have a young, obese, laminitic mare, I can sympathize with your problem. I don't have bluegrass, but I have 40 acres of lush pasture that she cannot graze. I have an indoor arena, and she can go out there, but then she chews all the wood.

In my situation, so long as there is nice hay, she doesn't seem to mind not getting grass. Do you provide hay in your dry lot? If so, and she is still digging for roots, then I'd say you have to not put her in the dry lot. The answer would be to do pretty much what I do, which is keep my mare stalled with a small deep sand turnout off the stall (has dutch doors). I then allow her to walk around the indoor arena with another horse to get a little bit of exercise. My mare is not ridden as she is not 100% sound.

Frankly, keeping my mare like this is extremely taxing both mentally and physically, but I am one of those owners that treats my horses like they are children. Personally, I do not understand a lot of those posters on Kellon's site that are trying to keep these elderly horses with laminitis alive.

As heartless as this may sound, I believe a horse that cannot live like a normal horse is better off getting put down, especially the senior ones. What kind of life is it for a horse to stand around in a dirt paddock with a muzzle.

[BornToRide]

First of all, I'm getting really sick of all this parotting of Eleanor Kellon. She is providing a good service on her forum, but she isn't God and she can be wrong. Same thing with safergrass.org. If all these berries and bloodtests were working, then we wouldn't have any horses lame from IR related laminitis, now would we? The insulin resistence theory is really rather new, and not totally proven. It seems like everybody is jumping on this bandwagon.
Sorry you are getting sick - just because a theory has not yet 100% been proven does not mean the condition does not exist.

IR is a metabolic disorder in horses that has a lot of similarities with Type II diabetes in humans. Some horses tend to be more susceptible to the disorder than others, primarily the so-called easy keepers. I just talked with a couple who runs 27 head of minis on a pasture of their farm and they have observed the same thing. Some of the minis just tend to be more sensitive to becoming laminitic which is closely tied to IR and all of them tend to be the easy keeper type.

IMO the best thing is probably prevention and not feeding such horses concentrated feeds (as in grain) to start with. Adding fat to the diet also reduced the glycemic response of the feed (The Horse, When Horses need Less Carbs, April 2004), which helps to balance out the insulin response.

From The Natural Horse:

In both laminitis and diabetes mellitus, the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates, a function of the liver and pancreas, is seriously impaired. As long as a horse has a propensity towards this disease, excess glucose in the blood is going to go along with glucose deprivation to the laminae.
In both laminitis and diabetes mellitus, the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates, a function of the liver and pancreas, is seriously impaired. As long as a horse has a propensity towards this disease, excess glucose in the blood is going to go along with glucose deprivation to the laminae.


I do agree that in some cases it might be more humane to put a severely suffering horse down.

[MyAlterSaidWhat?!]

Okay- I am going to try to address the questions raised.

The horse is on Pergolide because the vet ran bloodwork and asked me to try him on Pergolide. She ran bloodwork again a month later and stated that the bloodwork looked "almost normal" and suggested we keep horse on Pergolide. I figured better safe than sorry, since the horse will NOT eat chaste tree berries, not if they were the last food on earth, so Pergolide it is.

The current drylot is not very big, but there is another horse in there half the time for company.

I have an excellent farrier, and we have shot x-rays and are working off those.

Diet is as follows: Beet pulp, BOSS, MagOx, cinnamon, salt, vitamin E. I have not had a hay analysis done

The horse is very important to me, but what I did not know is whether the horse could have a much better quality of life in an area where the total grass growing is equal to what he can get through his muzzle when he's here. I've been to South Caroline and Florida, and I've seen some "fields" that don't have much grass there. He does okay on the bits of grass he can eat through the muzzle, so I was wondering if there was another state he could live in and not have to wear the muzzle, hence taking care of the mouth sores and the stocking up. I really like this horse, but if he could have a better quality of life somewhere else, I wouldn't want to keep him here.

I can't change the size and consistency of the drylot. I don't own it.

I can't give the horse any more exercise than he gets on his own.

The only reason I would consider selling is because the horse is sound as long as someone keeps tabs on diet, and the horse likes to be ridden and is a nice horse with good breeding and movement.

I'm just trying to figure out what I can do with what I have, which is turning out to be fairly limited time and resources right now. I'm always paranoid about selling or giving away any of my animals because I know people aren't what/who they say they are, but this might be a case where horse needs to go.

[BornToRide]

I would take the beet pulp away and substitute with black oil sunflower seeds or another quality fat source instead.

Best wishes!

[EqTrainer]

Ok.. let's see.

Diet: Is he getting any other source of fat? The cinnamon - I cannot remember but something is bugging me that it might be counterindicated with the Pergolide. Anyone? What kind of hay is he getting? Is he getting another type of multivitamin or just the E? My IR horse did not stabilize until on a pretty high dose of Sel/E - however, he was probably deficient all of his previous life.

[Hoofprince in Mud]

Maybe you could try using on of those anti-cribbing muzzle made of wire mesh, which extends about 5 or 6 inches up the muzzle, which would prevent him from eating anything grass-like during pasture turn-out, but not restrict him from drinking, so he can hang out with his buddies and get some exercise.
The concentrates part of your horses diet is great. Is it at all possible to have your horse's hay tested, so you know if it is part of the problem or a solution. (I wish I had though it important enough before my horse foundered.)
I can't stress enough how important it is to keep any excess weight off the horse -- but from what you have written, I guess you know that too.
I think you and the horse would be happier in the long run, if you just keep doing what you are doing, tweaking it a bit here and there as you go along, enjoying your successes, rather than finding the horse another home, which may or may not impove the horse's situation. You are doing everything in your power to improve the chances of this horse not foundering. You are doing the best you can. Your horse could not wish for more.

[Lookout]

"excess glucose in the blood is going to go along with glucose deprivation to the laminae."

What??

[Coreene]

In 1995, they were already using Pergolide in the UK on foundering horses. And over 90% of all founders are metabolic. This was told to us on Wednesday of last week by Mark Martinelli, when we took a horse down to his clinic in San Marcos. He is a leg expert and graciously answered endless questions from us, and this came from him. He also studied in the UK.

As for the BOSS, I would never feed it to a horse with metabolic issues.

[MSP]

The grazing muzzle just rubs off the hair no matter what you do; I have given up on it. I had it wrapped up with sheep skin and it still rubbed my horse’s hair off. I ended up moving my round pen panels to the back of her stall so now her turn out is restricted to the round pen or stall with maybe 1 to 2 hours of pasture a day. I think what we need is a lighter muzzle design that won’t rub.

[MyAlterSaidWhat?!]

The sores on the lips just won't heal. I'm just not sure I'm equipped to handle this horse right now with these problems. The horse is going crazy in the drylot, whinnying at anything that moves and staring over the gate like something is going to happen. The other horse in there for company is dropping weight like crazy, and needs to go out, but I'm afraid that if I leave him in by himself, he'll jump out of the fence and cause more problems.

It's making me sick to think about selling, but I guess my original question still stands. Does anyone who lives in SC, GA, FL, NM, AZ, etc., think that keeping an IR horse turned out more often is easier where you live?

[EqTrainer]

Ok, call me harsh, but who is going to buy this horse?

I paid $1.00 for my IR horse. He is a 12 year old 16.2h JC Reg. TB gelding, beautiful conformation, very nice mover, did the A/O hunters successfully for years. Will pack a monkey around a course. I "bought" him as an experiment more than anything else, to see if I could get him sound. Who else does these kind of things and can guarantee the horse a home for life, and will euthanize him if he is unsound and cannot be a horse? Not too many people.

If you cannot manage him, you may want to consider euthanizing him. Then at least you know he's not out in a field somewhere, with his coffin bones sticking out the bottom of his feet.

[dab]

It took me over a year to find a facility with an environment that meets the needs of my IR/Cushings/previously foundered mare -- She's been at her new barn for a little over a year now, and we're both so much happier -- As in your horse's case, my mare doesn't tolerate wearing a muzzle well, no matter how I padded or adjusted it --

The barn I found is only about an hour away from the lush, post-drought grass my mare foundered on -- She's field board in a densly wooded area on a hillside -- Very little grass grows in the shade of those trees -- There's 24x7 access to round bales and water -- She gets plenty of exercise, at her own pace, going up and down that hillside -- She's brought into a stall to eat her special diet while the rest of the herd is fed, and I can count on her getting pergolide every day --

So, yes, I do think it would be easier to manage your horse if you could find a barn that provides a different environment -- Honestly, I know my search took a great deal of time, and I really feel incredibly blessed to have stumbled upon this place -- Unfortunately for you, it's in PA --

I really can't see anyone wanting to buy horses like ours -- I know I heard of one vet who was doing Cushings research who I considered contacting when I thought I would never find a place for my mare -- I'm not sure if the vet's research subjects are donated horses or if they are privately owned, and I'm not sure if she keeps them on her farm, but donating your horse for research might be something you would want to consider --

[slb]

I am obviously posting under an alter- I do not want to be flamed for whatever decision I ultimately make.

That is a sad thing to think of this forum...but I can understand your position.
I have a horse that shows the classic IR signs and has previously foundered. Horse is currently stable on the IR emergency diet and Pergolide, and horse does NOT go out at any time without a muzzle on. Horse is in a small drylot with hay 14-15 hours per day and out with a muzzle on the rest of the time. Horse gets footsore when turned out on grass for even an hour at a time without the muzzle on. I happen to live in the land of the richest grass in the whole damn country- Bluegrass, and horse's system can't handle said bluegrass.

From my experience with IR horses...this is a very severe case....at least for the moment. Not all IR horses can be saved...not all respond to the diet or other controls. Some seem to improve and then plateau, never getting any better...or in some cases, after 2-3 years suddenly returning to health...but still requiring strict controls.

Problem #1: When left up in the drylot for more than two days, horse's legs stock up so badly they are swollen from hoof to knee/hock

Exercise will relieve this problem. If horse is not healthy enough to ride, then a brisk 20 min. handwalk (in straight lines only if foundered) will help...more if horse is comfortable with it. Probably prior to and sometime in the middle of time in dry lot. This is not unusual...stocking up is related to the inflammatory reaction to the carbs. It causes edema that causes cresty necks, fat pads, udder/sheath swelling. Exercise is the primary answer and is also the answer to maintaining IR horses in health.

Problem #2: Horse has begun to get mouth sores the size of quarters on the lips from rooting around for grass while wearing the muzzle. The gums are very irritated, and there is now a sore erupting where a tattoo would go on a racehorse.

Are you sure these are sores from the muzzle? It is not unusual for metabolic horses to get mouth ulcers. The bottom line is that if horse cannot tolerate muzzle comfortably, then it needs to be removed from grass totally. You have to consider that some IR horses cannot tolerate grass of any sort.

Problem #3: Horse is pretty green, although WTC and jumping small jumps and definitely capable of more, as long as owner keeps horse on strict diet, turnout, and Pergolide (only $30/month- not bad as far as supplements go), but horse is not necesarily sale-able right now. Horse is important to me, and I am thinking of moving to a state with less vegetation in a year anyway since I am allergic to bluegrass and all other things that grow here, but I don't know if horse can hold out for another year without rubbing its entire face raw.
If it is stable on perolide and all that is worrying you is the muzzle, then simply do not allow turnout.

My options that I can think of so far are:
1) Turn horse out for 8 hours at a time at night and pray and hope for no more founder, since with any more rotation I believe horse will be permanently crippled
You implied that an hour without the muzzle was causing sore feet...this horse most likely cannot tolerate night grazing any more than it can day grazing. Again, total dry lotting with exercise to reduce stocking up would be my recommendation on this issue.

Rotation is not your enemy...sinking might be...but rotation can be resolved and should be asap by a competent farrier. If the horse has been worked on and has not been laminitic for at least several months, then rotation should be resolved and horse should be returning to soundness and useablility. If farriers is saying that they can't restore coffin bone to correct spacial orientation within hoof capsule...get a new farrier.

2) Try and sell/lease horse to someone in a state with very poor vegetation, i.e. Florida, Georgia, Arizona, New Mexico, etc.

Moving the horse to another evironment with lesser quality grass may not be the answer. There are plenty of IR horses in the states you mentioned. I have my doubts that anyone would purchase a horse like this....I did, but he was basically "an experiement" for me and has gone on to be my primary riding horse. He was also worth $10K+ and I paid killer price of $600 for him. He was, IMO, worth every penny because of what he has taught me...but also because I was able to help him become sound and useable again. I also have a mare that was given to me...not IR, but with a metabolic issue. I have people ask me all the time to take horses with metabolic problems (for free) because people don't want to/can't deal with them. It is a lot of mental stress and most people have horses for relaxation. I have tried to place some of these horses (with instruction manuals) with people that were desperate for pasture companions for their riding horses...they refused them saying it was too much worry and money to deal with.

3) Try to deal with problem for now by putting sheepskin inside muzzle and leaving it on horse as is
My guess is you will first need to heal the sores before putting the muzzle back on...even wrapped in sheepskin. Again, advise that you make sure that it is the muzzle and not mouth ulcers that is the problem.

So: What would you do? Will moving the horse to another state help with the IR problem if the grass isn't so rich? Would anybody even consider buying this horse with the health issues, even if the horse came with an instruction manual for keeping it sound and healthy?
If I were having this much issue managing an IR horse...then I would get a hay test and consult with Dr. Kellon. It may or may not help to move the horse to another state. I have seen severe metabolic cases suffer bouts of laminitis on hay only diets. :(

[slb]

In 1995, they were already using Pergolide in the UK on foundering horses. And over 90% of all founders are metabolic. This was told to us on Wednesday of last week by Mark Martinelli, when we took a horse down to his clinic in San Marcos. He is a leg expert and graciously answered endless questions from us, and this came from him. He also studied in the UK.

As for the BOSS, I would never feed it to a horse with metabolic issues.
There have been various research efforts here also that reported success with controling severe metabolic cases with chroinic laminitis with pergolide. A farrier Matt Fredricks wrote a book and lectured for a couple of years on his success with treatting chronic laminitis with pergolide...and very few dietary controls. There have been others as well. It is not an uncommon apprach and one that should not be dismissed. There are several severe cases on the Equine Cushings board that are being treated with pregolide that are not Cushings. While it would not be my first choice, it would not be something that I would say "don't do" either. This treatment has proven itself in many, many cases.

I agree with your caution on feeding BOSS. While I woundn't say "never", I would approach any feedstuff that I had not previously fed to a metabolic horse...that includes alfalfa, beet pulp and numerous other things that are considered "safe"....as a potential cause for unwanted reactions. Make changes slowly, introduce new feedstuff one at a time and slowly and don't add any unnecessary things to the diet such as fats simply because the horse "might need them". Prove that they need them.

Fats...in particular oils....are not recommended as they can mask IR and thus symptoms may be indiating a healthy or controled IR horse, tests might also show this...but it is because the symptoms are being represed...not becasue there is an actual success with the treatment. This is often followed by a "why did he crash" question. :(

[chai]

my alter, have you had tests done to give you a definite medical diagnosis for this pony? I ask because we have two ponies: one has Cushing's Syndrome and the other is IR and the treatment protocol is different for each disease. Once you know for sure what you're dealing with, you can set up a feed/treatment program for you pony to address the specific problem. I can't believe the difference Pergolide has made in our Cushing's pony!
I think you are very smart to keep your pony off of grass until you know for sure what's up, and I think your pony can do very well in a dry lot until next year when you move. Our IR pony has been turned out daily in a large round pen with a run-in shed/sand footing for two years since she foundered on grass when she was at a boarding barn. Our Cushing's pony is also turned out during the day in the round pen with her since he was diagnosed this spring after coming up lame/lethargic a few days after spring shots. He developed Cushing's related laminitis, so he needed soft footing/no grass, too. They love being together and I can make sure they eat only what I give them for hay...no grass at all. We are still worried about the extra weight on our IR pony, but our Cushing's pony has made a remarkable recovery, to the point where we are able to trail ride him again this week.
I'm not a fan of grazing muzzles, because I know our pony would find a way to destroy it, and I can't take the chance she'll eat grass.
My ponies do well being stalled in the barn at night, then out in the round pen during the day. I can monitor their hay closely and they each other for company.
Please pm me if you want to know more about what's worked for us, and the meds and supplements they're on.
Good luck with your pony!

[BornToRide]

As for the BOSS, I would never feed it to a horse with metabolic issues.Why? Any fat sources reduces the glycemic response when fed together with carbs. I would think that this would be beneficial to a horse that is already IR, no?

[MyAlterSaidWhat?!]

I guess I should clarify a little more. The horse is currently sound and ride-able. I don't have time to ride at all now. Horse HATES being penned up more than just about anything. We had a workable system until the mouth sores started up. Horse stays sound and rideable unless something changes in the system, like someone turns him out "to make him happy" or he breaks his muzzle.

Thanks for all your replies though. I'm trying to think of as many options as I can. I bought the horse for meat price and got him sound, as many of you are saying you did also. As long as the horse's diet stays restricted, there is no reason the horse can't do as much as a "normal" horse. I'm just worried that nobody will want to buy a horse with a known problem, even one that comes with an exact instruction manual.

[EqTrainer]

Fats...in particular oils....are not recommended as they can mask IR and thus symptoms may be indiating a healthy or controled IR horse, tests might also show this...but it is because the symptoms are being represed...not becasue there is an actual success with the treatment. This is often followed by a "why did he crash" question. :(

Holding my hand up.. yes, that is exactly what happened with my horse. I did not know he was IR, I thought he was your typical TB that was hard to keep. Between the retaining fluids and the oil, he appeared to have really gained weight and topline.. and then when he crashed, it was not even a week before it was all gone.

Now, he is on flax today and seems to do fine with it. But as noted, I did introduce it slowly and carefully, now that I know better.

[EqTrainer]

Thanks for all your replies though. I'm trying to think of as many options as I can. I bought the horse for meat price and got him sound, as many of you are saying you did also. As long as the horse's diet stays restricted, there is no reason the horse can't do as much as a "normal" horse. I'm just worried that nobody will want to buy a horse with a known problem, even one that comes with an exact instruction manual.

Well... that is not necessarily correct. Unfortunately, these horses can have some real ups and downs regardless of how well their diet is controlled. Some of them cannot be controlled thru diet, or anything else, for that matter. I wish that it were as simple as controlling their diet, we'd all have it made and no worries.

You know, I train and sell horses. It's hard enough to get buyers to stick to the program that produced the horse they fell in love with and bought. I cannot imagine anyone taking my horse and committing to the program he is on. If I weren't really interested in this subject, and this horse in general (I knew him before all this came to pass) I would never sign up for this.

[MyAlterSaidWhat?!]

So, does that mean I'm stuck with this horse for life? When I took it on, I did NOT know what I was getting into. I saw a horse obviously suffering, and naively thought that with a little TLC and some Thyro-L I could do some good and then re-sell the horse to someone wanting this kind of horse. In that time I have become pretty attached to the horse, but I've been considering selling all my tack and my horses and just getting out of all this for awhile. I feel bad cooping a horse up who ought to be ridden regularly. I can't ride at all. My horses are becoming a burden on me and my family. At the same time, I can't see my life without horses, and I'm afraid I'm stuck with this horse for the next 15 years. I don't want him back out in the field where I found him, too overweight to move even to get water (which there wasn't any anyway) or in any similar situation, but I really don't know what to do with this horse.

[EqTrainer]

So, does that mean I'm stuck with this horse for life? When I took it on, I did NOT know what I was getting into. I saw a horse obviously suffering, and naively thought that with a little TLC and some Thyro-L I could do some good and then re-sell the horse to someone wanting this kind of horse. In that time I have become pretty attached to the horse, but I've been considering selling all my tack and my horses and just getting out of all this for awhile. I feel bad cooping a horse up who ought to be ridden regularly. I can't ride at all. My horses are becoming a burden on me and my family. At the same time, I can't see my life without horses, and I'm afraid I'm stuck with this horse for the next 15 years. I don't want him back out in the field where I found him, too overweight to move even to get water (which there wasn't any anyway) or in any similar situation, but I really don't know what to do with this horse.

In March, I posted on this board that I did not know if I could keep trying to get my IR horse sound. He had crashed badly and seemed to be always hovering on the edge of another one. It was terrible. It literally tore me up; going out to feed every AM set me on edge wondering if this would be the day I would find him in full founder stance. Every bobble he made sprouted me a new grey hair. He was not happy, no one was happy. It was bad.

I was seriously thinking that I would have to euthanize him. No grass, no turnout, no horse life, always in pain.. I just couldn't justify it. But shortly thereafter, he turned the corner and has been getting better ever since. NOW. The point here, is NOT that he got better. What I want to tell you, is that EVERYONE on this board supported my tentative decision to euthanize him. I was flooded with support; for him, for me. It became clear to me that real horse people, who really love their horses, understand that sometimes you cannot trust their fate to someone else but for their own good, you need to put them down. And better before, than after a crash and burn episode.

Shortly after that a good friend of mine euthanized a pony that had neurological problems... he had become dangerous. He was sound and looked great. But if you crossed him, he'd hurt you. She agonized over it and finally decided that his issue was his one way ticket to either being abused or going to slaughter (and god help the horses stuck on a double decker trailer with him.. it would have been a debacle) unless she put him down. I do not believe she has any regrets, and we supported her decision.

The care and upkeep of a horse with these type of issues is so stressful. I do not believe that anyone here would crucify you for making whatever decision you needed to; as long as it was in your horses best interest. I asked my vet her opinion of putting my horse down at that time; she told me that at ANY time I decided I could no longer be his guardian and caretaker that she recommended I put him down rather than take a chance of him ending up neglected and in pain. She told me this while she rubbed his forehead and loved on him. I know I am his last stop; the person who ends his life will be me, the quality of his life is up to me.

[Jenn2674]

I am still learning all this stuff myself as I have a potential IR horse. I live in SC and I don't think it would make a difference where he lived as long as there is grass on the ground. We have plenty of horses that founder on our grass and an old guy at the barn I boarded at foundered on grass late last fall. He is cushings/IR.

While some grasses have a tendency to be lower in NSCs it is still no guarantee that a bale of fescue will be higher in NSC than a bale of timothy. Fescue does tend to be higher in NSCs but if you look at some results you will see how widely it varys. Most of our grass is fescue with more coastal as you get toward the coast and in the sandhills.

My horse is potential IR/cushings. My vet is getting his stuff together to do the tests that Cornell University recommends so that we can know for sure what we are dealing with. I currently have him stalled during the day and out in a drylot at night. I am scared to death to put him on pasture at all although the old guy that foundered goes out for two hours everyday.

I personally think you are better off keeping him in a combination of the drylot and stall. Experiment until you find the right combination. From everything I have read, a small amount of grass can be deadly to some horses. If you have specific glucose and insulin numbers you could perhaps determine if your horse could tolerate some grass but you would need to test a few times. I thought about using a muzzle but since my horses aren't supervised 24/7 I would be so paranoid that it would come off.

You horse will get used to staying in the drylot with a buddy. Horses can adapt to so many ways of living with proper care and attention. Gosh, I just came from las vegas and there are not too many horses that have more than a 24x24 foot pen to live in. But the ones I saw seemed happy and healthy.There are other things you can do to keep weight on his buddy: more hay, add beet pulp, etc.

Perhaps you could also see if someone would ride the horse for you a few days a week. There always seems to be an abundence of horseless riders.

Good luck though with whatever you decide. I know it's hard and I know it is overwelming. I am right in the middle of it myself. Dr. Kellon's work is new and it is unproven but quite honestly, there ain't much else to go on. As a matter of fact there isn't much of any real "proven" information at all with IR horses. Just a bunch of cases, which does say alot. Really, when it comes to horses, most of the stuff we "know" isn't proven but just seems to work and that is basically what I am getting from Dr. Kellon's work. Sure is better than not doing anything or just praying!

[ASB Stars]

First off- SLB, is it ground hog day? ;)

I should preface this by stating that I think that all testing is an interesting, if sometimes inexact, science. Any test is only as good as the parameters around which it is designed, and frankly, thyroid and metabolic issues, IMHO, have too many variables for the testing to be dead on accurate for all horses. If you horse, through a miraculous series of events, happens to fit the model for which the test was designed, well, you have a better chance of having a correct result. Everyone else falls into the grey area- and how do you know? You don't.

Many years ago, I pushed a person into having their chronically foundering mare tested for Cushings. They tested, and she was not in the profile for Cushings- but then, "peripheral Cushings" came along, and more horses fell into the range that was problematic. She put her on Pergolide anyway, and the mare improved. Having said all of this, my point is that IMHO ONLY, I think we get married to results of tests, before we actually LOOK at these things.

I have had two vets that I respect, who have told me that they look at the horse most of the time- and, as long as the owner is not someone who is going to live and die by a test result- they'll start the pergolide, and see where it goes- without the blood testing. I have one pony on Pergolide- and he was not tested, but had every physical manifestation, and has improved dramatically.

My horses are ALL on a modified IR/Cushings diet. They are slick and healthy on it, but I know that they arenot getting an excess of carbs. Why do I do this? Why not? Sugar doesn't do a horse any darn good, any more than it does people. So, why not feed a healthier diet, if you can? I use beet pulp without molasses for everyone. I also feed fresh ground flax, and a bit of either Strategy or Ultium, depending. For those on a strict Cushings diet, we go to more beet pulp, and MAYBE a taste of grain, along with the supplements recommended by Dr. Kellon. I only use the jiao gulan on the two ponies, when they have flare ups. I'd recommend trying it to attempt to regain the vascular health of Alter's horses' feet.

There is virtually no reason NOT to try to manage any horses diet to the best of your ability, for the benefit of the horse.

[slb]

Yup....ground hog's day! :winkgrin:

ASB Stars....you make a very good point and one that should not be taken lightly. These issues in horses are fairly new to dx and the tools are not reliable at this time...and because horses are individuals, perhaps never will be.

I have a mare that passes all tests with flying colors...yet, if not treated like an IR horse, she founders easily. She shows no symptoms...no crest, fat pads and weight is good. She came to me 3 years foundered/neglected and therefore, I have no clue what set her off to start with...but she continued to be chronically laminitic until her diet was strictly regulated....ie no grass/grain.

[Lookout]

How about deleting some duplicates slb?

The board is excruciatingly slow lately, so rather than hitting submit over and over, just sit and stare at your reply and wait for it to register. Sending multiples slows it down even more.

[slb]

How about deleting some duplicates slb?

The board is excruciatingly slow lately, so rather than hitting submit over and over, just sit and stare at your reply and wait for it to register. Sending multiples slows it down even more.

Been working on it off and on for about 4 hrs now! :mad:
Didn't hit submit more than once....it would give me a database error message....operation timed out....when I looked at it last, there were no extra messages...but now there are what seem like hundreds! :confused:

[slb]

Why? Any fat sources reduces the glycemic response when fed together with carbs. I would think that this would be beneficial to a horse that is already IR, no?
Coreene and several others have reported adverse reactions with their metabolic horses after introducing BOSS to the diet. IMO, the question still remains if it was the BOSS or something else....perhaps something on the BOSS. But, it doesn't matter, she raises a good point about introducting feedstuff to metabolic horses.

From my experience, many of these horses are allergic to a variety of things. It could be a nutrient, it could be something put on by a manufacturer (some seeds are coated with mineral oil and other things), it could also be an undetected fungus that might be on the seeds that resulted in the harmful effects that she and others report. The bottom line is that we don't know and therefore caution should be approached with everything.....every change. I had a similar reaction to a change in hays (laminitis in two horses). It would probably be impossible to determine what caused the problems in either case, but I can't just eliminate grass hay from my feeding program....so I now use extreme caution when changing hays.

I addressed the fat issue above in about 200 repeat posts...I'm sure you saw at least one! :winkgrin: While it cannot be denied that KER research reported a lower glycemic response in horses supplemented fat, the amount may or may not be significant to an overall diet. With a meal of oats, the glycemic response was lowered by 10. That doens't mean that it was a significant amount to be of value to an IR horse.....it would not be (from approx. 90 down to 80). That drop would still spell issues for a metabolic case.

I have also had the same results that EqT had...a horse on a higher fat diet that looked like he was gaining weight.....but was infact filled with fluids and extreemly unhealthy. All it took was removing the fat sources from his diet to retrun him to a healthier state...although he remains thin....and I have to accept that for now.:(

[Lookout]

:Originally Posted by Coreene
In 1995, they were already using Pergolide in the UK on foundering horses. And over 90% of all founders are metabolic. This was told to us on Wednesday of last week by Mark Martinelli, when we took a horse down to his clinic in San Marcos. He is a leg expert and graciously answered endless questions from us, and this came from him. He also studied in the UK.



There have been various research efforts here also that reported success with controling severe metabolic cases with chroinic laminitis with pergolide. A farrier Matt Fredricks wrote a book and lectured for a couple of years on his success with treatting chronic laminitis with pergolide...and very few dietary controls.

Pergolide helps to control the cortisol released by stress. Cushings and IR horses are highly stressed individuals, and cortisol destroys protein - i.e. laminae.
So, the pergolide helps the laminae to maintain some integrity and not fall apart and allow the bone to rotate. It has less to do with whether the horse is "metabolic". Controlling the metabolism (and the stressors) is best achieved through diet.

[Katy Watts]

I asked my vet her opinion of putting my horse down at that time; she told me that at ANY time I decided I could no longer be his guardian and caretaker that she recommended I put him down rather than take a chance of him ending up neglected and in pain. She told me this while she rubbed his forehead and loved on him. I know I am his last stop; the person who ends his life will be me, the quality of his life is up to me.

Thank you and your vet for this wisdom. I get so many emails from people who think they have rescued a horse with serious health problems from death in a slaughter house, who then proceed to kill them slowly because they do not have the facilities, skills, time, money, common sense, horse savvy, veterinary or hoofcare expertise to care for them properly. I agonize over what to say. Sometimes their questions display so much ignorance I want to say 'put the horse down now before he suffers any longer'. Just having a big heart and a love for horses is not enough.

These decisions are different for every person, because we all have different amounts of resources available. There are far too few good homes for special needs horses. I turn down several free IR/laminitic type horses per year, because as the owner of 2 chronically laminitic ponies, I know exactly how expensive, time consuming and emotionally draining it is to care properly for them. I don't even think I have the time and money to care for another healthy horse!

Sometimes merciful intervention is the best we have to offer. Unless you can give the horse to a good home, where someone qualified can give him a decent chance at a good life, put him down. It may only take someone willing to learn, who has a large dry lot, and is financially able and willing to care for a possibly chronically ill animal.
Best of luck, nothing is easy with these horses.
Katy

[Lookout]

"excess glucose in the blood is going to go along with glucose deprivation to the laminae."

What??

I'd still like to see the explanation for this statement BTR

[hb]

Holding my hand up.. yes, that is exactly what happened with my horse. I did not know he was IR, I thought he was your typical TB that was hard to keep. Between the retaining fluids and the oil, he appeared to have really gained weight and topline.. and then when he crashed, it was not even a week before it was all gone.

Now, he is on flax today and seems to do fine with it. But as noted, I did introduce it slowly and carefully, now that I know better.

Please elaborate, how long was he on oil, how much per day, how did you know it was masking symptoms before the crash, did anything else change before the crash, and what kind of diet was he on before adding the oil?

I've had my mare on a low-carb diet for three years now, and she is on a large drylot. She's not as bad as some I've heard about - can tolerate maybe 3-4 hours a day of grazing, but #1 I'm not home to bring her in after 3 hours and #2 I don't want to push it, and I understand the problems can be cumulative.

I've recently started adding oil, as she has been difficult to keep weight on. She seems to be doing well. When you're talking about oil masking the symptoms, is that if a horse is on a "regular" high carb diet and oil is added? I'm freaking out a bit here!

[Coreene]

:Originally Posted by Coreene
In 1995, they were already using Pergolide in the UK on foundering horses. And over 90% of all founders are metabolic. This was told to us on Wednesday of last week by Mark Martinelli, when we took a horse down to his clinic in San Marcos. He is a leg expert and graciously answered endless questions from us, and this came from him. He also studied in the UK.


Pergolide helps to control the cortisol released by stress. Cushings and IR horses are highly stressed individuals, and cortisol destroys protein - i.e. laminae.
So, the pergolide helps the laminae to maintain some integrity and not fall apart and allow the bone to rotate. It has less to do with whether the horse is "metabolic". Controlling the metabolism (and the stressors) is best achieved through diet.
Which is why there were two separate sentences in my first post. One about Pergolide being used to treat laminitis. Another about over 90% of founder cases being metabolic. Obviously metabolism control is best achieved through diet. No one is suggesting otherwise.

[Lookout]

The founder is not "metabolic". The laminae are destroyed by cortisol. Many sentences does not equal accuracy.

[slb]

The founder is not "metabolic". The laminae are destroyed by cortisol. Many sentences does not equal accuracy.
By simple definition, that sort of chemical interaction between cells would be considered "metabolic".

Not every metabolic case...in fact many do not....have high cortisol levels.

It would seem logical that Pergolide is effective in Cushings cases in the way that you mentioned earlier because, there is a lack of dopamine production in the Cushings horse...pergolide is a dopamine antagonist (replacement) in these cases and thus helps controls the over-production of cortisol. However, seperating IR and other metabolic cases from Cushings, pergolide may or may not be effective because not all of these horses exhibit a lack of dopamine production, nor do they exhibit high outputs of cortisol.

While I agree that there are many metabolic cases that are stressed and suffer lamintis, not all do...there are many Cushings horses that never develop laminitis....no matter what you feed them or how you manage them.

[EqTrainer]

So.. let me think out loud here...

I wonder if the reason that some IR horses do well on Pergolide is because it stops the vicious cycle of pain = excessive cortizol production = laminitis = pain = cortizol and so on..

I know people who have told me that after their horse was on Pergolide for a year or so, they took them off it and have had no recurrence of symptoms.

Hmmmmmmm. Please correct me if there is a reason that this could not be possible.

[BornToRide]

I do not believe it is simply the cortisol that destroys the laminae, it is a metabolic dysfunction (triggered by specific stresses in the body) that causes damage to the laminae


Carbohydrate overload

If a horse is given grain in excess, or eats grass that is under stress and has accumulated excess non-structural carbohydrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Non-structural_carbohydrates&action=edit) (sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar), starch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch), or fructan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructan)), it may be unable to digest all of the carbohydrate in the foregut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foregut). The excess then moves on to the hindgut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindgut), and ferments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferment) in the cecum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecum). The presence of this fermenting carbohydrate in the cecum causes proliferation of lactic acid bacteria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid_bacteria), and an increase in acidity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acidity). This process kills beneficial bacteria, which ferment fiber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber). The endotoxins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endotoxins) and exotoxins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exotoxins) may then be absorbed into the bloodstream, due to a 'leaky gut syndrom', caused by irritation of the gut lining by increased acidity. Circulation is restricted, particularly in the feet. This results in laminitis.
Laminitis can also be cause by insulin resistance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_resistance) in the horse. Insulin resistant horses tend to become obese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obese) very easily and, even when starved down, may have abnormal fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat) deposits on the neck, shoulders, loin, above the eyes, and around the tail head, even when the rest of the body is in normal condition. The mechanism by which laminitis associated with insulin resistance occurs is not understood, but may be triggered by sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar) and starch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starch) in the diet of susceptible individuals. Ponies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pony) and breeds that evolved in harsh environments with only sparse grass tend to be more insulin resistant, possibly as a survival mechanism. Insulin resistant animals may get laminitis from only very small amounts of grain or high sugar grass. Slow adaptation to pasture is not effective, as it does to prevent laminitis via microbial population upsets. Insulin resistant horses with laminitis should be removed from all green grass and be fed only hay that is tested for Non Structual Carbohydrates (sugar, starch and fructan) and found to be below 11% NSC on a dry matter basis. Soaking hay underwater may remove excess carbohydrates and should be part of a first-aid treatment for any horse with laminitis associated with obesity or abnormal fat deposits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminitis

If one reads about the triggers, it appears that in most, if not all cases, digestion is compromised in some way and perhaps endotoxins are to blame, except in mechanical founder.

[Appassionato]

In March, I posted on this board that I did not know if I could keep trying to get my IR horse sound. He had crashed badly and seemed to be always hovering on the edge of another one. It was terrible. It literally tore me up; going out to feed every AM set me on edge wondering if this would be the day I would find him in full founder stance. Every bobble he made sprouted me a new grey hair. He was not happy, no one was happy. It was bad.

I was seriously thinking that I would have to euthanize him. No grass, no turnout, no horse life, always in pain.. I just couldn't justify it. But shortly thereafter, he turned the corner and has been getting better ever since. NOW. The point here, is NOT that he got better. What I want to tell you, is that EVERYONE on this board supported my tentative decision to euthanize him. I was flooded with support; for him, for me. It became clear to me that real horse people, who really love their horses, understand that sometimes you cannot trust their fate to someone else but for their own good, you need to put them down. And better before, than after a crash and burn episode.

Shortly after that a good friend of mine euthanized a pony that had neurological problems... he had become dangerous. He was sound and looked great. But if you crossed him, he'd hurt you. She agonized over it and finally decided that his issue was his one way ticket to either being abused or going to slaughter (and god help the horses stuck on a double decker trailer with him.. it would have been a debacle) unless she put him down. I do not believe she has any regrets, and we supported her decision.

The care and upkeep of a horse with these type of issues is so stressful. I do not believe that anyone here would crucify you for making whatever decision you needed to; as long as it was in your horses best interest. I asked my vet her opinion of putting my horse down at that time; she told me that at ANY time I decided I could no longer be his guardian and caretaker that she recommended I put him down rather than take a chance of him ending up neglected and in pain. She told me this while she rubbed his forehead and loved on him. I know I am his last stop; the person who ends his life will be me, the quality of his life is up to me.

I whole-heartedly concur. I can't advise anything here, myalter, but I can offer my shoulder to lean on. Founder is hell. I wish you all the best there, and I won't slam any decision you make. Like EqTrainer, it's been up and down in my world too (mech. founder).

On a note about moving, in my area of GA we run into a problem: rains in spring and fall, sometimes winter too. Especially the spring and fall, I have to closely monitor the fat guys of the farm or else they have mild laminitic episodes due to what I believe is the fresh and tender new grass. Spring being the worst season for them. Is it IR? Possibly. It's also not my horses, so I can't demand blood work. What I can do is since every year some of them get lame around that time, I take them off of so much grass, and I HAVE noticed a difference there.

[Coreene]

The founder is not "metabolic". The laminae are destroyed by cortisol. Many sentences does not equal accuracy.
Mark Martinelli DVM, whose judgement and opinions I value more highly than yours, said to me last Wednesday "And 90% of all founders are metabolic."

I have noticed on other threads as well that you seem to enjoy coming after any post I make regarding IR, Cushings and founder. Shove off, it's really getting old.

[slb]

So.. let me think out loud here...

I wonder if the reason that some IR horses do well on Pergolide is because it stops the vicious cycle of pain = excessive cortizol production = laminitis = pain = cortizol and so on..

I know people who have told me that after their horse was on Pergolide for a year or so, they took them off it and have had no recurrence of symptoms.

Hmmmmmmm. Please correct me if there is a reason that this could not be possible.
EqT....this is exactly what I surmised from using Chastetree Berry on chronic laminitis cases.

I have a mare that passes all tests with flying colors, yet she continued to be chronic for over 2 years. She came to us after being chronic for 3 years and I immediately put her on an IR diet. She responded like a champ and was sound and ridable within less than a year.....her feet healed very quickly. Then she started relapsing every fall/winter. I could bring her back in the summer, but it wouldn't last. After a couple of years I put her on the CT berries and her symptoms disappeared and I have not had to repeat the 6 months treatment again. She always had some slight mid-line edema and swelling in her udder....that is finally gone and with it all her other symptoms.

[slb]

Mark Martinelli DVM, whose judgement and opinions I value more highly than yours, said to me last Wednesday "And 90% of all founders are metabolic."
Coreene...I'm glad that you brought this up again....my vet and I work closely on lots of metabolic cases...after about our 5th year into this team effort, I asked her how many horses she now thought were suffering laminitis as a result of metabolic disorders...she also said at least 90%....she thought possibly even more. :eek:

[BornToRide]

Mark Martinelli DVM, whose judgement and opinions I value more highly than yours, said to me last Wednesday "And 90% of all founders are metabolic."

I have noticed on other threads as well that you seem to enjoy coming after any post I make regarding IR, Cushings and founder. Shove off, it's really getting old. I tend to get it when I talk about thyroid issues, EPSM and getting hi on grain - must hit a nerve with some folks, not sure why...Perhaps it means that they would have to face the facts and make changes?? :D

[MyAlterSaidWhat?!]

My apologies- the boards have been running too slowly for me to be able to check back in. Here is my exercise in futility for the day- no snarking on my thread! :D :D

Anyway, I might have found a hippotherapy center that wants the horse at least temporarily, I am talking to them further to find out what kind of drylot situation they have. He would be lead around over an obstacle course and perhaps have riders walk him around with a ground person. To me it sounds like a tremendous waste of his talents, but heck, he's not doing anything here anyway and as EqTrainer said, there is nothing stable about these horses.

I would like to give ChasteTreeBerries one last shot, but the horse WILL. NOT. EAT. THEM. Think about that Jared Lee cartoon of the reallypissed mare on the t-shirt. That's the kind of look I get, and then he's off his feed for three days afterwards. And that was only a tiny pinch, not the 3 T recommended!!! HOW do you get your horses to eat them?

[BornToRide]

Have you tried mixing it in apple sauce or something similar that might appeal to picky equine? :)

[EqTrainer]

How to get him to eat CTB.. I have no idea. One of the few blessings from my IR horse is that he is an absolute HOG and will eat anything at all. I have a friend who syringed her Po with it for a while and then she started eating it in her food. Guess she had to get used to it..

slb, I wonder if it would be worthwhile to put my IR horse on Pergolide as a trial run to see if it makes a difference? Your opinion?

[slb]

If he's doing well with CTB, then IMO, I would stick with it. What dose are you giving?

IMO, CTB has a lot to offer that pergolide doesn't. For one, it has been clinically reported to reduce or eliminate tumors of various types...it is suggested that it might do the same for a Cushings tumore....but lacks the science to back it. It also regulates a lot more than just dopamine...it is also a dopamine antagonist as pergolide is....so you are already getting a similar effect.

Now with that said...horses are individuals and some respond better to pergolide and other respond better to CTB. So, if you are on a correct dose of CTB and not getting desired results, then I would go for the pergolide.

EqT...to me this is a crapshoot and if there is even one idea that sounds like it might keep you one step ahead of the game, I say go for it. What do you have to lose? If there is a chance something will improve the quality of life for the horse, then you win that round, if it doesn't work...you didn't lose.....you just didn't nove ahead.

[ToN Farm]

In March, I posted on this board that I did not know if I could keep trying to get my IR horse sound. He had crashed badly and seemed to be always hovering on the edge of another one. It was terrible. It literally tore me up; going out to feed every AM set me on edge wondering if this would be the day I would find him in full founder stance.
Boy do I know that feeling. It takes the joy right out of everything else in your life.

I was seriously thinking that I would have to euthanize him. No grass, no turnout, no horse life, always in pain.. I just couldn't justify it. But shortly thereafter, he turned the corner and has been getting better ever since.
Ok...this brings me to ask a couple questions. First, what changes did you make to bring about the improvement. Second, why would you want to try Pergolide when you are on the road to recovery? I mean, why introduce something new that could cause a problem for 'whatever' reason?

Whoever said that most laminitis cases are metabolic I certainly agree with. That is why I think it is senseless to get all these blood tests. I think it's pretty obvious when an obese 4 year old gets laminitis it is from metabolic issues. I had to send one that young across rainbow bridge in year 2000. That was right at the time I was in contact with Matt & Susan Frederick's for help and they were trying to get word out about the insulin resistence theory. That's how new this theory is. Anyway, the 4 year old had a sinker, and I was forced to make the grave decision.

Now I have a 7 year old mare that has been up and down with laminitis for one and one-half years. She has been totally off pasture and grain since the first episode and on pergolide. During this period, she has been almost riding sound, and then would crash for no apparent reason. Even when she was looking sound, the pulses were pounding away in her feet. She won't touch the soaked hay and she isn't crazy about beet pulp either. She won't eat Quiessence or Cinnamin. There is no point to purchasing any vitamins/minerals that have to be put in food. So...how do you deal with a horse like this??? Thank God I have her at home where I can provide special care. However, this is going to go on for years and years, because I just cannot opt for euthansia. She is not that unconfortable. I guess I am in a similar boat with Eq.Trainer.

I'm curious, do your IR mares urinate a lot? Also, do you find any relationship between their lameness and their heat cycles? I do.

[Hoofprince in Mud]

Glad you might have found him a job. Any job is a good job if it keeps him busy. Even a tempory one.

About the Chaste Berries, have you tried grinding them up and mixing with something to make a paste, and pasting it into him. My horse absolutely refuses to eat "weird" stuff in his feed too, so I have to paste him with the weird and wonderful stuff. I have a couple of old coffee grinders I use to speed up to processing part.

[EqTrainer]

If he's doing well with CTB, then IMO, I would stick with it. What dose are you giving?

IMO, CTB has a lot to offer that pergolide doesn't. For one, it has been clinically reported to reduce or eliminate tumors of various types...it is suggested that it might do the same for a Cushings tumore....but lacks the science to back it. It also regulates a lot more than just dopamine...it is also a dopamine antagonist as pergolide is....so you are already getting a similar effect.

Now with that said...horses are individuals and some respond better to pergolide and other respond better to CTB. So, if you are on a correct dose of CTB and not getting desired results, then I would go for the pergolide.

EqT...to me this is a crapshoot and if there is even one idea that sounds like it might keep you one step ahead of the game, I say go for it. What do you have to lose? If there is a chance something will improve the quality of life for the horse, then you win that round, if it doesn't work...you didn't lose.....you just didn't nove ahead.

That is exactly why I had started w/the CTB and stuck with it... the fact that it would cover more bases. Plus, I am always a little leery in his case of giving him anything commercially prepared.. that seems to be a trigger for him, I don't know why exactly but have just learned to err on the side of au naturel <LOL>.

He is getting 2 oz. 2x day and has seemed to plateau out. I had increased it to that about a month ago when I thought he might be borderline laminitic again. Isn't that a maximum dose? If not, I would be sure happy to try giving him more rather than Pergolide. The reason I am considering a change is that he is still doing the "rear end tucked under" stance which leads me to think he is still having pain issues. Perhaps it is more of an entire body ache thing, rather than a foot thing at this point. He does not seem to be actively laminitic BUT I have to remember that this horse is a tough cookie - he was a stakes winner and then did the A/O's while having flareups. He does however protest physical therapy type work on his body and has been shitty recently undersaddle. So... I wonder. Remember this is the horse that got injected over and over again, so surely his cortisol levels are just whacked. Maybe I just need to wait longer for that to resolve, but I am worried about the vicious cycle. Perhaps just a painkiller, such as Devils Claw, might be in order. He doesn't do bute, no surprise there.

You know, a big part of the problem here is probably that I am never satisfied. I always feel when I am dealing with him, that I am just missing part of the puzzle and there is something that will snap into place. I really may need to get over that and accept that 1) this is a process and 2) this may be as good as it gets. But like you say.. why not try it - particularly since I have good reason to believe his cortisol levels were/have been outrageous.

I changed his trim - read up on the Ovcinek stuff about rockering the toes past the toe callous.. I could NOT get his foot to come back.. the difference is amazing and he seems very comfy on his front end (finally landing heel/toe consistently, reaching out, picking his feet up all the way off the ground when moving) but that rear end... years of standing like that may have just taken their toll. Or maybe that needs more time to shake out, too. Ok, I am rambling now so I'll sleep on it! Thanks :)

[EqTrainer]

ToN Farm, I did not know my horse was IR when I got him. I knew he was *something* but I did not know what. I really thought he was just another NQR TB with long toes and underrun heels who was skinny and needed a Powerpack, a good trim and some PT. Boy was I wrong. Well, not entirely, as the Powerpack, good trim and PT have helped but obviously that was not all that was going on...

He had had his hocks and coffin bones injected multiple times right before I got him - and he always got WORSE after they were done. Ding, ding, ding. Anyway, he got here and we were in a drought. He was turned out and given hay and fed a relatively low carb, high fat diet and of course I did the PP and started on the feet. He improved very, very fast. Fast forward to this spring, as soon as the grass started coming in he became laminitic. I will never really know if that was what triggered it because at the same time I had switched his feed to one .. lower in carbs <LOL> and in hindsight, my other horse had a laminitic thing at the same time, but it was very slight and no one noticed right away. In retrospect, it could have been the feed.

Anyway, at the same time I had been upping his oil and thought he looked great.. but oddly enough he would stock up/swell up for no apparent reason. Well, as soon as he became laminitic and I pulled the oil/grain he started peeing.. and peeing.. and he got SKINNY. He had just been retaining fluids :( He had the haircoat, he suddenly revealed he was potbelled and had no topline, it was all very obvious suddenly when I looked at his life history (I have known this horse for quite a while, he was always NQR but I blamed it on his shitty trim job and rampant thrush/fungal foot infections) and looked at him fresh.

What helped him? No commerical grain products at all, large doses of MagOx/chromium, Sel/E and the CTB. He is turned out in a semi-dry lot; I have 22 acres of grass and there is NO WHERE that there is absolutely *NO* grass other than a very small pea gravel paddock where he could not see any other horses. He was so depressed at one point in there that I just said eff it and put him in the semi with a friend. Who would have ever thought I would curse my grass <LOL> Major improvement in there with a buddy. He does not graze really, it's interesting.. he does clean up his hay tho'.

In this horses case, hindsight being 20/20, I think he was IR and laminitic for years and years. I do not know how many times in his life he was injected and given dex and whatnot, I know it was often and the last run was 3 times in 2 months.

Why would I try the Pergolide? Well as you see from my previous post it could just be my own neurosis. I look at this horse and I think MY GOD, what a nice horse you would/could be IF I could just get you to 100%. Since I rehab horses, I know what 100% is and he's not there. I think most people would say he looks great; but I think his body language says he does not feel great, he just feels ok. I think I need to find a way to break this pain = excess cortisol = laminitis cycle. If it is the excess cortisol that creates the glucose issues then that seems to me to be the thing to focus on. I think the other interesting option might be to just address the pain and see if that lowers the cortisol. Given his injection history, who knows if I will even be able to ever really get it down or maybe that will just take time. I am a patient trainer but not a patient doctor <LOL>

So that's it, in a nutshell, I left a lot out so feel free to ask questions.

[Lookout]

Now I have a 7 year old mare that has been up and down with laminitis for one and one-half years. She has been totally off pasture and grain since the first episode and on pergolide. During this period, she has been almost riding sound, and then would crash for no apparent reason. Even when she was looking sound, the pulses were pounding away in her feet. She won't touch the soaked hay and she isn't crazy about beet pulp either. She won't eat Quiessence or Cinnamin. There is no point to purchasing any vitamins/minerals that have to be put in food. So...how do you deal with a horse like this??? Thank God I have her at home where I can provide special care. However, this is going to go on for years and years, because I just cannot opt for euthansia. She is not that unconfortable.

One way of dealing with it would be to trim the feet to a physiologically correct form which involves taking the pressure off the toe laminae (the ones that usually get overstressed which results in founder) by lowering the heels and bringing the coffin bone closer to a ground parallel position. This way the laminae at the toe, at the bottom of the foot, have half a chance of supporting the bone and attaching it to the wall, because they are not forced to stretch five or more times past their structural limit. The toe wall and coffin bone should be parallel from top to bottom, and the laminae should get no wider from top to bottom.

[Lookout]

So.. let me think out loud here...

I wonder if the reason that some IR horses do well on Pergolide is because it stops the vicious cycle of pain = excessive cortizol production = laminitis = pain = cortizol and so on..

I know people who have told me that after their horse was on Pergolide for a year or so, they took them off it and have had no recurrence of symptoms.

Hmmmmmmm. Please correct me if there is a reason that this could not be possible.

I do believe this is exactly what is going on (in many cases), and all the attention to the diet is misplaced, it is a trigger, not a cause. If the horse had laminae with some structural integrity intact - due to not being trashed by cortisol as well as having correct hoof form - , the inflammation from the metabolic trigger would cause little more than temporary discomfort, and in fact an unstressed horse may not even react to the metabolic trigger. (I do in fact know of one such horse right now that despite months of inappropriate diet and resulting laminitis has actually not foundered because of his otherwise impeccable hoof form).

And let's not forget the recent article in The Horse (last month or two months ago), that pretty much said exactly the same thing about the origina and role of cortisol.

[Lookout]

Mark Martinelli DVM, whose judgement and opinions I value more highly than yours, said to me last Wednesday "And 90% of all founders are metabolic."

You know what they say about opinions, everyone has one. Now, a sound, live horse, that's altogether different.

[Coreene]

You know what they say about opinions, everyone has one. Now, a sound, live horse, that's altogether different.
Remind me, where did you go to vet school?

[yellow-horse]

to the O/P, silly me did take another cushings horse after my dear old yellowhorse died, but i was able to have her at home
one of the reasons, the main reason why i bought my own farm was because of the yellowhorse, so i could manage her better than at a boarding facility, and i have no negative things to say about boarding but the care a critical cushings horse needs is much more difficult when you board
i think if i had been boarding when my horse crashed big time i would have put her down then, however she pulled through and lived another year, at the time of the 2nd crash we had both had enough
my current cushings horse has the luxury of the worst grass in virginia and she is still very limited as to how much she goes out in
when i moved here i doubled the size of the dry lot and both my horses even the non cushings/ir horse is in the dry lot most of the time, the non cushings horse has asked me over and over why does she always get stuck with these fat asses

[slb]

I do believe this is exactly what is going on (in many cases), and all the attention to the diet is misplaced, it is a trigger, not a cause. If the horse had laminae with some structural integrity intact - due to not being trashed by cortisol as well as having correct hoof form - , the inflammation from the metabolic trigger would cause little more than temporary discomfort, and in fact an unstressed horse may not even react to the metabolic trigger. (I do in fact know of one such horse right now that despite months of inappropriate diet and resulting laminitis has actually not foundered because of his otherwise impeccable hoof form).
I guess that would depend on wich part of "attention to the diet" you are talking about. I agree that some of the attention might be misplace, but not all of it.

Metabolically, you are correct....it is a trigger and not the cause....however, if you can't remove the trigger, you can't remove the cause.....and the cause isn't always compromised lamina. I have seen horses with impecible feet founder, even sink....but I realize that you don't believe that I know what "good feet" look like. ;)

With that said, I will agree that the better the hoof form, the less chance of founder/sinking and generally less damage...but not always. My Peruvian cam with very good feet...had been in good condition for 2 years before he foundered from severe IR. He at first showed no signs...it was never evident in his feet through 4-5 months of trimming, then we finally saw a small amount of damage. The vet (who is excellent at dx....expeically lameness), believe him to have a suspensory issue....the farrier also agreed...this lasted for about 1 month and then it became evident that he was actively laminitic. X-rays revealed 18 and 15 degrees rotation at that time. And he is only one case I am familar with. My friend has 3 metabolic horses that have suffered mild bouts of laminitis for the last 3 winters. They have been in good barefoot trims for at least 5 years. Everyone one of them is only slightly metabolic....so she is in denial and her feeding program was not beneficial to them. But, the evidence was there every year...sore front feet and slight rotation in each.

You can call it the chicken and the egg...it matters not...metabolic trigger/cause. The bottom line is that there is evidence to both sides and neither should be dismissed lighty. It is highly probable that continued outputs of high cortisol levels would cause damage, thus leading to rotation as you noted. I even agree that good hoof form can be a limiting factor in laminitis/founder....but likewise, it is just as probable that rotation can occur without high cortisol levels or even without poor hoof form.

[slb]

EqT.....I was thinking about using Pergolide on a horse that might have "normal" or slightly low dopamine levels.....

What if, like thyroid meds, the use of pergolide to "replace" dopamine production puts the horse in a pattern of dopamine prodution "shut down"....that is, when chemicals that the body produces are replaced by synthetic or other means, the organs/systems/processes that produce those checmicals will be called upon less and less by the body to produce...hence the body slows and eventually can shut down all production of the checmical, becasue the receptors tell the body that there is enough and that production can stop. Hope I'm making sense here.

I'm not as "chemically minded" as I should be at this point...but I would want to know more about the interactions of pergolide/dopamine and cortisol before going on with treatment. If the dopamine production was not normal, then I think it would work and if not used long term, could do exactly as you say and if the body was still relying on some dopamine producion, then it could very well return to normal production once the pergolide is removed. However, if there is no production...or pergolide is given in high enough doses to shut down production....then there is a chance that production may not resume once pergolice is removed...thus making the horse reliant on pergolide for life.....ie essentially making it a Cushings case. :(

[ASB Stars]

This is a brilliant point, IMHO, that is so often overlooked in many applications to the horse, and to people.

Thanks for mentioning this! :)

[monstrpony]

First off, is it ground hog day? ;)



Let's all sing along..

"Every day is groundhog day on the COTH BB!!" At least, somewhere...

Interesting thread, as always.

My Cushings/EPSM guy is starting his annual late summer mini-crash, I think; occasional pulses, not moving as freely as he could be--slowly enough that DP is getting in some good bite marks--and a little off his feed. So, I'm rethinking all of it to see what to try to change this time to prevent the mini from transitioning to full-blown.

Anyone ever notice their laminitis-prone horses having pulses in the evening, and being okay in the mornings? I'm wondering if this is consistent with the uncontrolled cortisol rhythm that's sometimes used as a diagnostic tool. My horse is on Pergolide, been on the same dose for almost exactly two years; have a call in to the vet to see if its time to increase the dose. Any thoughts?

He's barefoot and has a good, solid, balanced foot; actually, even thru the worst laminitis episodes, the balance has stayed pretty good. We did use rail shoes the first, worst time, with success, but as this horse is retired and high-maintenance anyway, I've told the vet and farrier that we won't do that again (too expensive).

[EqTrainer]

EqT.....I was thinking about using Pergolide on a horse that might have "normal" or slightly low dopamine levels.....

What if, like thyroid meds, the use of pergolide to "replace" dopamine production puts the horse in a pattern of dopamine prodution "shut down"....that is, when chemicals that the body produces are replaced by synthetic or other means, the organs/systems/processes that produce those checmicals will be called upon less and less by the body to produce...hence the body slows and eventually can shut down all production of the checmical, becasue the receptors tell the body that there is enough and that production can stop. Hope I'm making sense here.

I'm not as "chemically minded" as I should be at this point...but I would want to know more about the interactions of pergolide/dopamine and cortisol before going on with treatment. If the dopamine production was not normal, then I think it would work and if not used long term, could do exactly as you say and if the body was still relying on some dopamine producion, then it could very well return to normal production once the pergolide is removed. However, if there is no production...or pergolide is given in high enough doses to shut down production....then there is a chance that production may not resume once pergolice is removed...thus making the horse reliant on pergolide for life.....ie essentially making it a Cushings case. :(

:D Yes, this is exactly what I am trying to sort thru. I know my vet has very little experience with these things so she wouldn't be much help.. do you think yours might have a better handle on this and be able to help sort it out?

I think you have hit upon a big part of it being successful or not - that the dose will have to be correct and still producing some dopamine.

My horse is probably a good study for it as his hoof form is good, his diet is under control but there is still that grey area where the cycle is not yet been broken. I vote we use him as our study horse if we can get this figured out.

Off to research Pergolide and where to get it..

Excited about the potential here!

[Lookout]

EqT.....I was thinking about using Pergolide on a horse that might have "normal" or slightly low dopamine levels.....

What if, like thyroid meds, the use of pergolide to "replace" dopamine production puts the horse in a pattern of dopamine prodution "shut down"....that is, when chemicals that the body produces are replaced by synthetic or other means, the organs/systems/processes that produce those checmicals will be called upon less and less by the body to produce...hence the body slows and eventually can shut down all production of the checmical, becasue the receptors tell the body that there is enough and that production can stop. Hope I'm making sense here.

I would suspect this is why pergolide medication can't just be stopped 'cold turkey'. Don't they say to reduce it gradually?

[JB]

Anyone ever notice their laminitis-prone horses having pulses in the evening, and being okay in the mornings? I'm wondering if this is consistent with the uncontrolled cortisol rhythm that's sometimes used as a diagnostic tool.

Another thought - the grasses accumulate more and more sugar as the day wears on, and exhale sugars as the night progresses. Maybe there is a relationship between this and the cortisol rythms, I don't know, that is way out of my league! :)

[Lookout]

Equine Metabolic Syndrome:
Explanations and Possibilities
by Dr. Joseph Thomas
Printed in: Holistic Horse
Spring 2004, Volume 10, Issue 37

Here is a good description of the relationship of ACTH, cortisol, glucose, and insulin in EMS.

As you can see one of the byproducts is excess cortisol. This hormone breaks down protein (the main component of laminae) and is responsible for weakened laminae leading to laminitis/founder. This serves to explain how Pergolide functions to "control" laminitis, not by affecting the metabolism or the relationship between the hormones, just on the output of cortisol.

http://www.forloveofthehorse.com/metabolic.php?PHPSESSID=2aa004757fe7871996c4cb0eea 3bfd9c

Equine Metabolic Syndrome is highlighted by an aberration in the critical feedback loop that exists between the Pituitary Gland and the Adrenal Glands (which functionally sit on the kidneys). The pituitary gland secretes a hormone labeled ACTH (adrenal corticotrophic hormone) and the adrenal glands secrete a hormone labeled Cortisol. The delicate dance between these two glands and the hormones they produce is at the root of the Cushing’s and Laminitic metabolic explanation.
The pituitary hormone ACTH manages the quantity of cortisol that is released into the bloodstream by the adrenal glands. The pituitary gland monitors the cortisol’s magnitude and stops the production of ACTH when a “healthy” level of cortisol (or excess) is present in the blood. The pituitary will manufacture more ACTH when an increase in cortisol is needed. The pituitary gland’s job, in this arena, is to insure that cortisol levels are exactly where they should be for a healthy metabolic system.
However, this pituitary-adrenal gland feedback loop, in a horse with Equine Metabolic Syndrome is not working appropriately. The pituitary gland continues to produce ACTH even though there is clearly a pathological overabundance of cortisol in the bloodstream. The adrenal glands response to ACTH production is always going to be to make more cortisol thereby escalating the already present metabolic problem.

An Overabundance of Cortisol

An overabundance of cortisol disrupts insulin’s function of assisting cells in the absorption of glucose. Glucose is essential as cells’ fuel, their “life force;” if you will. Given a breakdown in the healthy relationship between glucose, insulin and cells, there quickly becomes an excess of glucose in the blood which signals the production of more insulin to take care of the surfeit glucose, only exacerbating the present problem by increasing the overload of insulin.
Possible Changes in Laboratory Blood Work
There is likely to be a high to above "normal" concentration of glucose, insulin, cortisone (cells store cortisol in this molecular form) and ACTH in the blood of a horse with Equine Metabolic Syndrome. The levels of all these substances vary throughout the day following a natural circadian rhythm. This very important rhythmic process must be taken into consideration when doing blood analysis on a horse with a metabolic problem to avoid erroneous interpretations.

[EqTrainer]

Thank you Lookout, this is fantastic information.

I left my vet a message, time for her and I to chat.

[Katy Watts]

[QUOTE=monstrpony

My Cushings/EPSM guy is starting his annual late summer mini-crash, [/QUOTE]

I've heard of several cases where 'metabolically challenged' horses got laminitis that coincided with bad biting insect season. Possibly this mechanism is along the line of the immunilogical hyper-reactivity that was found in the study at Texas A & M of horses with chronic laminitis.

There is WAY too much we don't know about metabolic disease in horses.
Katy

[slb]

I would suspect this is why pergolide medication can't just be stopped 'cold turkey'. Don't they say to reduce it gradually?
Yes, from my understanding, it needs to be reduced. However, just because the pergolide is slowly reduced, doesn't mean that the production of dompamine will increase to replace it.

[slb]

Here is a good description of the relationship of ACTH, cortisol, glucose, and insulin in EMS.
While I cannot at this time (only scanned the artilces) fault this author's explaination of the interactions of coritsol and other hormones....I cannot agree to his use of "lumping" Cushings, EMS and IR into one united disorder. Yes, it can be, but they can and are distinct disorders that need to be recognized as such. There are Cushings cases without IR, just as there are IR cases without Cushings. I have seen many blood test that atest to this fact. Not only do the tests suport this, but, the symptoms and successful treatments also support it.

IMO, this is one of the very issues that tends to discredit some treatments, as well as some tests. It also has the potential to slow research.

[rcloisonne]

There have been various research efforts here also that reported success with controling severe metabolic cases with chroinic laminitis with pergolide. A farrier Matt Fredricks wrote a book and lectured for a couple of years on his success with treatting chronic laminitis with pergolide...and very few dietary controls. :(

While I agree with the work the Fredericks have done, to state they promote very few dietary controls is inaccurate. The Fredericks's suggest pergolide and grass hay - period. No beet pulp, no supplements, no other meds such as Thyro-L. Nothing. They also are quite adamant regarding the form of pergolide. Only the brand name form of the drug, Permax, is recommended.

For more information, get a copy of "Founder! Hope for Refractory Laminitis".

I agree that a certain on-line vet's belief that pergo should only be given to horses with confirmed Cushings cases is ridiculous and just plain wrong. The currently available tests for Cushings are so inaccurate as to be almost worthless. However, I think she has done the equine community a great service in promoting low carb diets for these horses. And, the feed companies are finally listening and providing low carb alternatives to "senior".

[rcloisonne]

IMO, CTB has a lot to offer that pergolide doesn't. For one, it has been clinically reported to reduce or eliminate tumors of various types....

Please site your "clinical" sources. One of the few actual studies done (at New Bolton) showed CB extracts to be worthless:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/aaep/2002/910102000175.PDF


it is suggested that it might do the same for a Cushings tumore....but lacks the science to back it

It lacks the science to back because trials done so far don't back it.


It also regulates a lot more than just dopamine...it is also a dopamine antagonist as pergolide is....so you are already getting a similar effect.

Pergolide is a dopamine agonist which is the opposite of an antagonist. Look up the meaning of both in a dictionary ;)

[BornToRide]

Although IR & Cushings have different root causes in general (not always, as Cushings will cause IR, but IR can happen by itself) , the pathology of the conditions are very much interconnected. Perhaps some unusual laminitis cases in horses are caused by stresses which raise the cortisol levels in sensitive individuals which exascerbates the symptoms.

Under normal circumstances your body produces more cortisol (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G1399) in the morning than in the evening, giving you the energy that you need to begin your day. In the evening your cortisol level should drop by approximately 90%. Evening is generally the time when the stresses of the day are behind you, the time when you can relax and unwind. Scientific data is showing that elevated cortisol levels are becoming more commonplace.

As important and necessary as cortisol is, you can have too much of it circulating in your system. If you are constantly under stress, your cortisol level can remain elevated over long periods of time. Research now correlates chronically elevated levels of cortisol with blood sugar problems, fat accumulation, compromised immune function, exhaustion, bone loss, and even heart disease. Memory loss has also been associated with high cortisol levels. Continual stress can indeed have a negative impact on your health.

An elevated cortisol level is not something you can immediately feel. If it is elevated for too long, over a period of months or years for example, you may begin to feel its effects because of the negative impact it has on your overall health. Besides impacting the immune system (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G860), fertility, and bone health, the list of the risks of high cortisol (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G1399) levels grows longer. New studies demonstrate that elevated cortisol levels can lead to abdominal (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G1373) weight gain, loss of verbal declarative memory (words, names, and numbers), insulin (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G620) resistance, and Type 2 Diabetes (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G176).
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html

[slb]

While I agree with the work the Fredericks have done, to state they promote very few dietary controls is inaccurate. The Fredericks's suggest pergolide and grass hay - period. No beet pulp, no supplements, no other meds such as Thyro-L. Nothing. They also are quite adamant regarding the form of pergolide. Only the brand name form of the drug, Permax, is recommended.
I'm sorry for the confusion....I wasn't implying that they "promote" no dietary changes....I was trying to say that they have posted of success with few dietary controls. I do understand that they are normally very strict on their controls. And, I also have seen Matt's reactions to Dr. Kellon's suggestions on supplementation...in particular chromium and magnesium.

Thanks for posting this so that there is clarification on what they do promote as their protocol.

[Lookout]

You can call it the chicken and the egg...it matters not...metabolic trigger/cause.

It does matter, because which you choose as your cause is what you will treat, and what will determine your success.

[BornToRide]

Although IR & Cushings have different root causes in general (not always, as Cushings will cause IR, but IR can happen by itself) , the pathology of the conditions are very much interconnected. Perhaps some unusual laminitis cases in horses are caused by stresses which raise the cortisol levels in sensitive individuals which exascerbates the symptoms.
Just had another thought - in addition thyroid levels should be checked because low thyroid function can cause increased stress on the adrenals, which in turn means increased Cortisol levels which again leads to IR.

[Lookout]

"excess glucose in the blood is going to go along with glucose deprivation to the laminae."

What??

Born to Ride it looks like you deleted your post that this quote came from, I guess because you couldn't explain how glucose deprivation to laminae had anything to do with laminitis.
Can you remind me where you got this quote from?

[Lookout]

Under normal circumstances your body produces more cortisol (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G1399) in the morning than in the evening, giving you the energy that you need to begin your day. In the evening your cortisol level should drop by approximately 90%. Evening is generally the time when the stresses of the day are behind you, the time when you can relax and unwind. Scientific data is showing that elevated cortisol levels are becoming more commonplace.

To this I say - so what. This is obviously taken from a website for humans and is the problem with trying to use human diagnostics on horses. Horses do not have a night/day rhythm. Probably the tendency to force our rhythms on them, like two or three meals a day, is one of the things that causes the stress and release of cortisol to begin with.

[slb]

[quote=rcloisonne]Please site your "clinical" sources. One of the few actual studies done (at New Bolton) showed CB extracts to be worthless:

The studies that I know of were done in the UK (IIRC), however, they were not done on equines, but on humans....hence my reference to what is suspected of the potential for helping equines. It is my understanding that there is more than just this New Bolton study that has indicated that CB is "worthless", yet, there are hundreds of horses (I have experience with at least a dozen) that have responded positively with CB treatment in field trials and practicle applications. In all cases, sumptoms of Cushings were relieved or elminiated with correct dosage...however, as with pergolide, it doesn't work on all horses. Science often fails us because of the expectations and limitations applied by the researcher...not because of the failure of the product. There are plenty of nay-sayers out there when it comes to treatment with CB, but there are likewise plenty of owners that can attest to its benefits.

I will see if I can locate some reference to the studies if you are interested. I'm not a proponent of any specific treatment....I simply feel that people should do what they feel most comfortable with and what works best in their situation. I am skeptical of the side effects that pergolide may produce, but feel that it is simply one of three courses of treatment that an owner can select from.

It lacks the science to back because trials done so far don't back it. See above, field trials do back it. Controled scientific studies are not the only way to determine the effectiveness of a treatment...especially when the treatment is being done on a fairly misunderstood disease.

Pergolide is a dopamine agonist which is the opposite of an antagonist. Look up the meaning of both in a dictionary ;)
Opps...sorry...thanks for pointing out my error. I did clarify that I was defining pergolide as acting as a replacement for dopamine....not that it was counteracting something else. Duh....I must have been having a bad hair day....thanks for pointing that out.

[BornToRide]

Born to Ride it looks like you deleted your post that this quote came from, I guess because you couldn't explain how glucose deprivation to laminae had anything to do with laminitis.
Can you remind me where you got this quote from?

Nope, I did not - I never delete my posts . This is not one of my quotes. I posted something to the fact (after i saw this quote) that usually the assumption is that endotoxins cause damage to the laminae, not necessarily the cortisol. Did you mean this reference from the Natural Horse magazine on the first page of thsi thread?
From The Natural Horse:

Quote:
In both laminitis and diabetes mellitus, the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates, a function of the liver and pancreas, is seriously impaired. As long as a horse has a propensity towards this disease, excess glucose in the blood is going to go along with glucose deprivation to the laminae.
In both laminitis and diabetes mellitus, the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates, a function of the liver and pancreas, is seriously impaired.
I guess those were the finding of the person who wrote the article.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BornToRide
Under normal circumstances your body produces more cortisol (http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C314595.html#G1399) in the morning than in the evening, giving you the energy that you need to begin your day. In the evening your cortisol level should drop by approximately 90%. Evening is generally the time when the stresses of the day are behind you, the time when you can relax and unwind. Scientific data is showing that elevated cortisol levels are becoming more commonplace.


This is obviously taken from a website for humans and is the problem with trying to use human diagnostics on horses. Horses do not have a night/day rhythm. Probably the tendency to force our rhythms on them, like two or three meals a day, is one of the things that causes the stress and release of cortisol to begin with.
Why would that matter? Obviously conditions/diseases are regularly treated with the same medications regardless of human or animal. Pergolide is used to treat Cushings in people AND horses, except the dosage might vary. The basic pathology is still the same in same conditons. We are more similar biologically than we are different.

[slb]

It does matter, because which you choose as your cause is what you will treat, and what will determine your success.
Would you not agree that regardless of the trigger/cause....you would treat the feet the same....work toward optimal foot form? As for removing the trigger...we both have different approaches on that...but IMO, treatment for metabolic issues starts the same, advacement to include other things that address particular aspects of the system comes later as the individual components are sorted out. So, IMO, it matters not....treatment to address the trigger is just as importnat and key to success as treatment to remove the cause. They shouldn't be separated and from my experience success rates are greatly reduced if only one of the two aspects (trigger/cuase) is addressed.

[Lookout]

Would you not agree that regardless of the trigger/cause....you would treat the feet the same....work toward optimal foot form? As for removing the trigger...we both have different approaches on that...but IMO, treatment for metabolic issues starts the same, advacement to include other things that address particular aspects of the system comes later as the individual components are sorted out. So, IMO, it matters not....treatment to address the trigger is just as importnat and key to success as treatment to remove the cause. They shouldn't be separated and from my experience success rates are greatly reduced if only one of the two aspects (trigger/cuase) is addressed.

The point is, most people only address diet, and not the feet because they don't believe it's part of the problem, or don't understand how poor hoof form contributes to the problem, or don't know what correct hoof form is. ALL the attention is focused on the diet, muzzles, dry lots, starvation, no grazing, inadequate circulation, no companionship, all which cause stress which release cortisol which CAUSE the problem!!!!

[Lookout]

Nope, I did not - I never delete my posts . This is not one of my quotes. I posted something to the fact (after i saw this quote) that usually the assumption is that endotoxins cause damage to the laminae, not necessarily the cortisol. Did you mean this reference from the Natural Horse magazine on the first page of thsi thread?
I guess those were the finding of the person who wrote the article.

From The Natural Horse:

Quote:
In both laminitis and diabetes mellitus, the metabolism of fats and carbohydrates, a function of the liver and pancreas, is seriously impaired. As long as a horse has a propensity towards this disease, excess glucose in the blood is going to go along with glucose deprivation to the laminae.


Yes, that's it. So where is the original post of yours containing this quote.

And (for the third time) could you please explain this quote and what glucose deprivation to the laminae has to do with anything.


Why would that matter?

I already explained it in my original post. Did you read it? Because horses do not have a day/night rhythm (among many other zoological differences that makes comparing them to humans irrelevant), and the overlooking of this difference is what causes the stress to begin with. Do you understand?

[BornToRide]

Lookout - You will find the original post on page one of this thread as I already pointed out in my post in reference to this quote - it is # 10.

From the same article in the Natural Horse Magazine, by Joseph Thomas:
A primary function of insulin is to impel glucose into the cells of the body to provide life sustaining energy and nourishment. When there's too much glucose in the blood steream, there's not enough getting into the cells (due to insulin resistance of the cells). In horses this means the laminae cells as well. The glucose starvation of theses cells result in the seperation and stretching of the laminae with likely coddin bone rotation. I highly recoomend reading the full copy of the article. it is very well written with detailed explanation.

Regardless of day/night rhythm, the pathology of Cushings syndrome is still very much the same for human or horses or other critters affected, hence they both respond positively to treatment with the same medication and dietary adjustments, which again is reducing the amount of sugars in the diet for both.

[Lookout]

Regardless of day/night rhythm, the pathology of Cushings syndrome is still very much the same for human or horses or other critters affected, hence they both respond positively to treatment with the same medication and dietary adjustments, which again is reducing the amount of sugars in the diet for both.

You do not listen well. If you don't cause the stress to begin with (by thinking a horse's lack of circadian rhythm or other stress inducing anthropomorphizations to its lifestyle is irrelevant to its management) then you won't need to medicate it.

[BornToRide]

Well, and you do not read well or otherwise you would have found my original post you were referring to that you said I deleted :D

Ok, are you talking Cushings here or IR? I think we need to differentiate between the two. In Cushings syndrome I could see a connection between stress levels and elevated cortisol levels leading to laminitis or worse founder, in which case i would also check the thyroid because low thyroid function can make an individual less tolerant of stress, thereby raising the stress levels which might cause chronically higher cortisol levels leading to you know what....

In IR horses the primary cause is that the tissue becomes resistant to the affects of insulin, after being in a diet that is too high in carbs which cause constant elevated insulin levels which eventually lead to the resistance. That has noting to do with stress and all about improper diet.

My mini had no stress - he was only enjoying himself out on pasture with 2 other horses when he foundered. That was before I got him and the reason i got him for free. The owner's did not want to deal with it - was too much effort in their eyes. He was never on any madication. All we did was adjust his diet and he's doing beautifully now. He's lost quite a bit of weight and looks great and happy.

[slb]

The point is, most people only address diet, and not the feet because they don't believe it's part of the problem, or don't understand how poor hoof form contributes to the problem, or don't know what correct hoof form is. ALL the attention is focused on the diet, muzzles, dry lots, starvation, no grazing, inadequate circulation, no companionship, all which cause stress which release cortisol which CAUSE the problem!!!!

I'm not sure who "those people" are, but yes, I agree that there are people that focus on diet alone and could care less about hoof form....but that isn't necessarily a belief in the diet as the key element, it is more a lack of knowledge of good hoof form. Most people that address diet, believe that they are also providing adequate hoof care.

As for all the things that you say result in elevated cortisol levles...while I agree that they MIGHT result in elevated levels, that would depend more on the personality of the horse as opposed to it being a GOVEN. From my experience, I have seen horses benefit from being stalled...others benefit vrom being outside. There is no ONE management technique that works best for ALL horses. If a horse will not lay down outside, then stalling for a certain period of time is better than forcing it to stand on sore feet 24/7...likewise if a horse is stress becasue it is stalled, then outside might e better. If a horse is pushed around and taken advantage of by its pasturemate, then that is not beneficial....depending on the horse, might prove to speed rather than hinder healing. Leaving a shivering horse without assuming that it might have a disorder that prevents thermoregulation is most likely going to be more stressful than putting a blanket on it.

I'm not really disagreeing with you....just pointing out that there is more than one way to look at all this and when management protocols put every horse into the same catagory, then, IMO, they can and sometimes do, fail the horse.

[Lookout]

In IR horses the primary cause is that the tissue becomes resistant to the affects of insulin, after being in a diet that is too high in carbs which cause constant elevated insulin levels which eventually lead to the resistance. That has noting to do with stress and all about improper diet.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Please go back and reread the article that ALREADY addressed this point and explained how chronic stress leads to IR as well as Cushing's.

My mini had no stress - he was only enjoying himself out on pasture with 2 other horses when he foundered. That was before I got him and the reason i got him for free. The owner's did not want to deal with it - was too much effort in their eyes. He was never on any madication. All we did was adjust his diet and he's doing beautifully now. He's lost quite a bit of weight and looks great and happy.
Since you don't distinguish between a horse's needs and causes of stress and a human's, it's not likely you would recognize a horse's stress. And I'm sure this mini, like all other mini's out there, had impeccable hoof care. Like the six year old one I rescued that had a farrier out "every six weeks" since it had foundered at the age of TWO but whose feet were approximately one foot long (TWELVE inches).

[BornToRide]

:rolleyes: I get the impression that you generalize too much and make assumptions that may not be correct......some minis are neglected, not all are. Mine wasn't, he just could not handle the rich grass in the pasture and the previous owner had a set-up that could not deal with his special needs, nor did they want to create one, so they found him a new home instead....

I read part of the article you posted and I read the whole article in the natural Horse Magazine titled "The Easy keeper: Myth & Dangers". I do not find anywhere that stress is supposedly a main factor in inducing IR & Cushings. Please show me where you read this.

The same author also writes in the Natural Horse magazine article":
The point of drawing your attention to the similarities between diabetes and laminitis is to underline the importance of understanding laminitis as a metabolic disease. Horses with laminitis OR Cushing's live along a continuum within the disease process. There are horses that seem to always be on the edge of an episode yet never move into full blown lameness and other horses that end up with coffin bone rotation in the dead of winter without any apparent trigger. Similarly, some people with DM can control their disease merely by diet regulation while others must use diet and hypoglycemic medications (blood lowering meds) of varying magnitudes. For both, the management of the disease is a way of life.

Yes, like I said, my mini's feet were well trimmed AND I recently talked with a couple who runs a herd of 27 head of minis out in a pasture 24/7, in Eastern Washington State. Those horses have a great and very natural life with probably little stress. The couple is very well known for the quality horses here in the mini community. They told me that mostly they do fine out in pasture all the time, except for a few individuals who cannot tolerate the richness of the grass and develop laminitis easily. They have to be seperated and kept more or less on a dry lot.

In addition there are many WBs and TBS out there who have an extremely stressful lifestyle, yet they tend develop ulcers not necessarily laminitis.

I think there's a strong genetic component that makes some horse's more susceptible to laminitis than others. Somehow there's a dysfunction in their glucose/insulin metabolism. Perhaps we are actually looking at autoimmune diseases that has not been observed in equines yet because nobody has looked into that direction yet. Perhaps some horses are actually prone to develop a form of Type 1 diabetes. Perhaps the severity of the disease varies from individual to individual and that's maybe why some crash faster than others.......

[Lookout]

..some minis are neglected, not all are. Mine wasn't, he just could not handle the rich grass in the pasture

The farm where the mini I rescued went to has another mini "rescue". That one was lamintic every spring, with her "well-trimmed" feet. She now gets a proper trim (for real) and her feet are beautiful. She can now go out on spring grass and somehow now can "handle" the rich spring grass. The nosey neighbor kept calling the owner all summer insisting she take the mini off that rich pasture or she'd founder, yet somehow, she DIDN'T :eek: !


Yes, like I said, my mini's feet were well trimmed

Right.
See above.

[slb]

The farm where the mini I rescued went to has another mini "rescue". That one was lamintic every spring, with her "well-trimmed" feet. She now gets a proper trim (for real) and her feet are beautiful. She can now go out on spring grass and somehow now can "handle" the rich spring grass. The nosey neighbor kept calling the owner all summer insisting she take the mini off that rich pasture or she'd founder, yet somehow, she DIDN'T :eek: !
Lookout...while again, I am not trying to disagree with this line of thought...it hardly proves that the mini stopped foundering just because of a change in its hoof form. Since the sugars in spring grasses (that are the general tigger for laminitis) are not a given, there is some consideration for the individual weather conditions for each spring. Living in a "land of founder", I believe this is the first year that my farrier husband has not had an over abundance of new founder cases.

Likewise, what else in this mini's life changed? Perhaps it is being exercised or turnout more....exercise is an IR "buster" and often exercise alone will break the cycle. How about diet? If there was a change from a trend toward over-feeding commercial feeds to a more "natural" diet or one based on forage, this would also make a difference.

These are just some things to think about....there are many more variables to factor in.

[Lookout]

:lol: :D The mini gets no exercise, other than what she does on her own! Of course, now that her feet are correctly trimmed, maybe she is self-exercising a little more :cool: . Nothing else changed.

[slb]

:lol: :D The mini gets no exercise, other than what she does on her own! Of course, now that her feet are correctly trimmed, maybe she is self-exercising a little more :cool: . Nothing else changed. You are saying that the mini was on a natural management program such as you might recommend for the years prior to changes in trimming?

Assuming you are its hoofcare provider....you are saying that no supplements such as magnesium, flax or selenium were added to the diet at any point within 3 years prior to when you started trimming it? You are saying that no meds were given to the mini within 3 years of the change in trimming?

If you are saying all this is true.....and it could well be....then yes, I have witnessed increases in self-exercise being the agent that reduces crests, eliminates excess weight and even eliminates SOME instances of laminitis when the feet are properly balanced and aligned.

That being said....the important thing to remember is that in the cases that I ahve experienced this happening on....the coffin bone had NEVER been restored to proper spacial orientation within the hoof capsule after initial rotation.....this is the clinical definition of chronic founder. We should all understand that given chroinic founder, there is generally going to be chronic laminitis. While low grade and often undetected, it is still present and generally making the horse sore footed. Since the goal of the trim should be to restore proper orientation of the CB, then once that is accomplished or even nearly accomplished, the horse will generally increase its movement to a point that can be benefical enough to contribute to the prevention of laminitis. But, it still depends on the horse and the severity....if any...of the metalic disorders.

[Lookout]

Yes, pretty much the mini was on a "natural" management program. Certainly no one kept her in a stall - what a "waste" that would be!
I'm not the trimmer, but basically, no supplements were or are being given, certainly not the ones normally given for IR horses. I did recommend copper because her black coat and mane was reddened, but I don't think she ever got it. Perhaps she got some standard vitamins, I don't know, but she eats so little grain, it's hard to give any supplements. (this wasn't changed either).

She's so small, there's not a lot you can do with her. I think some small children have come over for "pony rides" occasionally. Not that that would have increased her exercise output by a

[slb]

[quote=Lookout]I'm not the trimmer, but basically, no supplements were or are being given, certainly not the ones normally given for IR horses. I did recommend copper because her black coat and mane was reddened, but I don't think she ever got it. Perhaps she got some standard vitamins, I don't know, but she eats so little grain, it's hard to give any supplements. (this wasn't changed either).
Copper and zinc would be something that I would recommend for any horse that is metabolic or laminitic....but like you said, questionable if they all get it. Also a multi vit/min mix would be recommended for IR and laminitic horses....again questionable as to if they get it.

She's so small, there's not a lot you can do with her. I think some small children have come over for "pony rides" occasionally. Not that that would have increased her exercise output by a great deal :) .
Sometimes all it takes is a very slight increase in activity...even just a 20 minute walk each day....sometimes less...to make a difference.

Yes, her CB is restored to ground parallel and the feet have an adorable round shape to them now, but they were "well trimmed" before!
Please define a "good" trim...was her CB correctly orientated prior to the current hoofcare provider taking over?

Lookout....I want to thank you for taking time to participating in this discussion. :)

[Lookout]

No, the CB was not properly oriented before the new trimmer took over, the heels were high. The heels were lowered as were the bars and the toes were shortened. The heels were contracted and they have spread out and decontracted beautifully, defying mini conventions. It took about a year but her feet are incredibly beautiful now; I have never seen such a thing on a mini before so it was interesting to see it was possible.

BTW what else do you recommend for a metabolic horse besides the standard mag, chromium, cinnamon? The same person who has the minis just got a very metabolic horse and is giving Quiessence and is following the yahoo cushings diet but could use some short term intervention/relief/help.

[slb]

No, the CB was not properly oriented before the new trimmer took over, the heels were high. The heels were lowered as were the bars and the toes were shortened. The heels were contracted and they have spread out and decontracted beautifully, defying mini conventions. It took about a year but her feet are incredibly beautiful now; I have never seen such a thing on a mini before so it was interesting to see it was possible.
Intersting that you should post this.....I recently happened by chance to catch Gene Ovnicek trimming a mini with much the same issues as you described. The contraction was, I would say, not as severe as your case, but was evident. He carefully explained how their foot should look like a "normal" horse foot and explained that he was shortening toe, taking down heel and the rest....the little hoof looked so nice when he got done. My husband trims minis for a few clients....he notes that they all take time, but he also changes their hoof shape for the better. He says all their feet hurt when he gets them....and many are laminitic. Generally, we don't have to put them on any speical diet...initially they are on limited grass, but that's all.

BTW what else do you recommend for a metabolic horse besides the standard mag, chromium, cinnamon? The same person who has the minis just got a very metabolic horse and is giving Quiessence and is following the yahoo cushings diet but could use some short term intervention/relief/help.
I advise kelp/Source products or an iodine supplement such as iodized table salt. Kelp is really good towards healing feet. I also recommend flax to all foundered horses as there is a school of thought that laminitis is similar to an allergic reaction....I know that many metabolic horses have allergies and between the kelp and flax, we seem to be able to clear up the majority of them. Beyond that, a quality source of protein with enough "limiting" amino acids to make it available. I also want them getting a quality vit/min mix. I recommend other things beyond that, but only for certain cases. I rarely recommend chromium...only in the most severe cases where insulin is out of control. I also only use cinnamon on a limited bases....again only in more severe cases. For people that are not keen on "the land of 1000 supplements"...I often recommend using Focus HF (covers kelp, copper and zinc).

IMO, getting a hay test and correctly balancing the Ca:Mg ratio, adding selinium and vit E in deficient areas, flax and kelp all go a long way in benfitting these horses.

Hope this helps...PM me if you need more ideas.

[Lookout]

That is pretty much the point I'm making; mini's hoofcare is far from optimal because people don't realize they should look just like horse feet, only smaller. Correct that and often that's all it takes (not discounting the value of exercise and circulation which of course is improved with comfortable feet). And this can probably often be carried thru to bigger horses.

Thanks for the help, I'll see if she needs more or has questions. The horse does have hives, and is badly laminitic, has developed cracks in his hooves, all this within 24 hours of having his shoes removed. But hasn't foundered (TG).

[slb]

I understand...and agree....that far too many chronic laminitc/founder cases are directly related to poor/incorrect hoof care. However, from my experience, this is only the case "sometimes". It is not the ONLY answer....it is simply one aspect, one answer and doesn't serve ALL horses. There are a thousand variations that go beyond that....and yes, poper hoofcare HAS to be included in all of those options if any of them are to be successful....but optimal hoofcare alone, is not always successful.

The bottom line is that if the coffin bone is not correctly oriented, regardless of what is addressed on the outside of the hoof, the horse continues to be laminitic/foundered. This is a given in almost anyone's model of chronic founder....as long as the coffin bone is rotated = chronic founder. I have not seen anything written otherwise in any literature. This is not a new or unusual concept. Unfortunately, this concept doesn't compute to every professional...more likely, from what I have seen with farriers...it computes, but some simply lack the understanding to accomplish it. :confused:

[BornToRide]

The horse does have hives, and is badly laminitic, has developed cracks in his hooves, all this within 24 hours of having his shoes removed. But hasn't foundered (TG).

There's strong connection in people who have low thyroid function and hives or urticaria. Perhaps have the horse tested if you have not done so already. Recurrent hives is also a sign of a weaker immune system. The Horse Journal has reported good results eliminating or reducing hives issues in horses through spirulina supplementation.

[Lookout]

The bottom line is that if the coffin bone is not correctly oriented, regardless of what is addressed on the outside of the hoof, the horse continues to be laminitic/foundered. This is a given in almost anyone's model of chronic founder....as long as the coffin bone is rotated = chronic founder. I have not seen anything written otherwise in any literature. This is not a new or unusual concept. Unfortunately, this concept doesn't compute to every professional...more likely, from what I have seen with farriers...it computes, but some simply lack the understanding to accomplish it. :confused:

And then there's the vet in my area who took xrays of my friend's club footed horse and her good foot, and said the good foot needed more heel and to look more like the clubfoot. The ground parallel CB was a very unhealthy situation with a pathology waiting to happen. Coffin bones are made to point down. This is not an isolated incident of some backyard know nothing, she is a few years out of school and has all the fanciest diagnostic equipment, ultrasound, etc., of any vet in the area.

[BornToRide]

Are you sure the clubfoot was truly a clubfoot? Not all upright feet are clubfeet!

One foot is usually more upright than the other because it takes less weight when the horse moves. It comes from the fact that horses are side dominant , just like people. The wider flatter front foot always takes more weight due to the weaker diagonal hind leg, whereas the more upright foot is better supported by the stronger diagonal hindleg. That's a proven theory. Interestingly enough this problem seems to be more pronounced the bigger the horse is. It is not usually found in ponies, regardless of being ridden or not.

[slb]

And then there's the vet in my area who took xrays of my friend's club footed horse and her good foot, and said the good foot needed more heel and to look more like the clubfoot. The ground parallel CB was a very unhealthy situation with a pathology waiting to happen. Coffin bones are made to point down. This is not an isolated incident of some backyard know nothing, she is a few years out of school and has all the fanciest diagnostic equipment, ultrasound, etc., of any vet in the area.

Yup...agreed....this is not an uncommon thing for vets to misdiagnose what should be done with feet...since they have very little training in vet school concerning pathologies of the feet. IMO, if they intend on being an equine vet, they should be required to take a semester or even two of recognizing hoof pathologies and their treatment...but even then, it might be questionable as to what skill they take to the field...there are only a handful of students in any given ciriculum that excell...that means that even with the documents to prove success as a student that anyone's vet might have been in the lower end of the class....and if their memorization skills were good, they may have gotten by without even a clue of practicle application in the field.

[BornToRide]

...or pathologies of the soft tissue. I had one diagnose a sore back by using a common reflex point to initiate pelvic extension :rolleyes:

[EqTrainer]

...or pathologies of the soft tissue. I had one diagnose a sore back by using a common reflex point to initiate pelvic extension :rolleyes:

We have a local vet who does that and then recommends you call his brother who is also a DVM to inject the horse hocks :eek: it's rather alarming.

Ok ya'll... am still exploring the Pergolide idea. I have spoken to my vet and she is game, but has no idea what the dosing is for an IR horse. Says that with a Cushings horse she starts at .5 and increases to 1 mg if it seems necessary. Anyone have any comments? He is off today, for the first time in two months.. it appears that the clock may be ticking.:(

[BornToRide]

We have a local vet who does that and then recommends you call his brother who is also a DVM to inject the horse hocks :eek: it's rather alarming.

I'd say :eek: - unbelievable how scrupulous some people are!! Soory, have no idea on the pergolide dosage, but I'm sure someone here does :)