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nhwr
Jul. 8, 2006, 04:38 PM
I didn't want to hijack feisomeday's thread. But I am amazed at how many people object to training that involves having a horse "just hang out" for a couple of hours. This has always been part of my routine for starting youngsters. I have a big oak tree in my yard just for this purpose. I find it makes the horses more secure, independent and self assured. Besides there is nothing worse than being at a show with a horse that can't be left tied to the trailer. I liken this to a child being able to go to sleep at night by themselves.

What are the problems others have with it?

raffadasmom
Jul. 8, 2006, 04:52 PM
I think being able to stand tied quietly for at least an hour is as wonderful virtue in a horse. But it just takes time and getting used to it. Especially the insecure horses who don't like being away from the herd. They'll paw and whinny like they are the Last Horse on Earth, but then they settle down. After they can do this, they gain a lot more confidence and IMO are easier to train and therefore safer to be around.
There's a perception that it's cruel, or at least that's what I've heard people say. Standing out in the sun all alone with no water ... the thought drives some horseowners mad.
It's usually the same owners whose horses walk 5 feet ahead of them, dragging Mommy anywhere they want to go.

siegi b.
Jul. 8, 2006, 05:32 PM
nhwr - your quote "I find it makes the horses more secure, independent and self assured. " This is after you have them tied to an oak tree for a couple of hours? I think it's more likely to end up with a horse that SEEMS quiet because it's given up. As a flight animal it's important to a horse to always see a way out. Once there's no more way out, the horse basically surrenders, but rest assured that he will always look for that way. While I understand that it's necessary to be able to restrain a horse for certain things, I've always thought it highly irresponsible of owners to tie their horses to their trailers (and I've seen a few trailers damaged quite heavily because of that). I have heard of broken necks in horses wearing two nylon halters and that were tied to old trees.

There are all kinds of ways to teach horses - brute force has never been one to aspire to in my book. There is a reason people are more intelligent than horses.... :-)

enjoytheride
Jul. 8, 2006, 05:38 PM
Western horses stand tied to trailers for hours at shows between classes, and thousands of trail horses stand tied to trailers while their owners have lunch between riding, or even stand tied overnight.

My own horse gets a stall at horse shows but if we trail ride or school cross country he has to be able to stand tied to a trailer. For as long as I need him too. I've even gone to dressage and jumping lessons at very nice barns where there have been no stalls, so he has to stand tied to a rail or the trailer.

Standing tied in a stall or to a rail for an hour or two is excellent training. I've seen trainers tack two horses up, tie on in the arena while workng the other then switch. The horses learn to stand still and not stomp around. As long as they aren't tied up short or tied for hours without food or water it's just like standing in their stall taking a nap.

It's awful to get to a trail ride or lesson and find that your horse will not stand tied long enough for you to change into your boots, eat a sandwich, or go to the potty. You have to stand next to the stupid animal all day long will it snorts, pulls, paws, and tries to get loose.

Utah
Jul. 8, 2006, 05:45 PM
I have a friend whose young horses all learn to stand in a tie stall in the barn, where she can stick them while they cool out/dry off once they are ridden. She also does the tie & switch in the arena sometimes. I am thinking of one or two of these stalls in addition to the boxes when my addition goes up.

Essie
Jul. 8, 2006, 06:46 PM
If you are talking about tieing for a couple of hours with you being within reach. I think that it's a great thing. I problem I have with "tieing training" is when the "trainer" ties the horse and leaves the property oh...for 8 hours, 10 hours. I knew of a person just like this. One time he did this to a young Paso. He rode the horse and then tied him in his stall with the saddle on him. When I got to the barn the horse was kicking the wall and the saddle was under his belly. :mad: I called the trainer's cell and home numbers trying to let him know that there was a problem. The trainer was off property all day that day. :mad: I rescued the horse but :mad: .
Another time this same person tied a horse to a tree. This time he was on property but the horse layed down while she was still tied. I let him know that the horse was laying down. The trainer went and rescued the horse but :mad: . This is not training, it's (insert your own word).

2Horse
Jul. 8, 2006, 07:08 PM
I may get flamed here, but I start my young horses tying at a young age. I gradually work my way up to longer periods. I show, I trail ride and I camp. When I camp, my horses are tied on a high line....over night!
Mine are just fine eating out of their hay bags, tied. Its not cruel.

mbm
Jul. 8, 2006, 07:09 PM
i think that any horse should be able to stand tied for a certain period of time.....

however, that said i dont think that a horse should be taught this in one fell swoop. nor should the handler be far off. ie: i would gradually increase time spent tied - i would not tie them to a tree and leave them there for hours.

i also think that a leather halter should be used so that it can break if needed so that horse wont snap neck if something happens.

i was always taught to never leave my horse tied... so i have a gut reaction to walking away from a tied horse - and if i have to go pee i run to the john and back again - just in case.

i have been in (many) barns where horses were left x-tied for long periods of time... perhaps trainer was riding another horse or what have you.... i am not sure wha ti think of that.

Arcadien
Jul. 8, 2006, 07:48 PM
I've got a track background, and find many are suprised that OTTB's do know how to tie - they spend quality time attached to a short chain (high so they can't paw over it) while stall is being cleaned/groomed or tacked/waiting for exercise rider to appear, etc... that said, they *are* in their safe, comfortable stall at the time, and their are plenty of people around working that could help, but I've never seen a horse in this situation need help. They are never cross tied (the aisle is used for hotwalking) or tied to trailers or in other places than a stall, that I've experienced; but tied short in a stall, they just about all have experience with.

For my retraining of OTTB's, I get them used to tying in other situations with bungee cords, short bits of time, then longer, and of course keep a close eye on them, but it's mainly their highly sensitive reaction to the things going on around them that is the trouble, not the fact that they are tied. I introduce cross ties also on bungees, at first one side only, the other a cotton lead draped through the tie ring ("pretend" cross tie). Also helps if there is a wall behind them, at first - not tied out in an aisle, at least at first.

As someone said, little by little, keeping an eye on them - eventually they all become pretty comfortable tied.

But I'm never totally relaxed leaving them tied, as they ARE Thoroughbreds, centuries of breeding telling them to react fast, think later, and IMO they can never be expected to be as non-reactive as a cooler blooded breed. Accidents are always more nasty when a horse desperately wants to get away and finds it can't, unless someone is there to intervene.

Anyway, just wanted to point out the stall tying experience of OTTB's, in case someone has one and didn't know - when in a pinch, it's nice to have a high tie ring in that stall, most OTTB's just go (relatively) to sleep when they find themselves hitched to that!

Cheers,
Arcadien

Oakstable
Jul. 8, 2006, 08:17 PM
A timely thread. How do you start teaching a horse to tie?

I have a big oak tree. I have a box stall.

What age?

????

Nexta
Jul. 8, 2006, 08:25 PM
A horse should be able to stand tied to a trailer, a tree or whatever.
Eventers do it with TB's or whatever they are riding, western folks do it too, so do endurance and trail riders.

In my day it was called a "worry pole" --take the horse out to a pole or tree where you could tie 'em high and let 'em worry it out.

It's a horse, not a person, it needs to do what you need it to do!

mzpeepers
Jul. 8, 2006, 08:30 PM
While I understand that it's necessary to be able to restrain a horse for certain things, I've always thought it highly irresponsible of owners to tie their horses to their trailers (and I've seen a few trailers damaged quite heavily because of that). I have heard of broken necks in horses wearing two nylon halters and that were tied to old trees.


I'm curious Siegi, if a stall is not available and you don't have a portable corral (or there is no room to set one up) how do you deal with th horse all day? I agree that proper training is necessary but I expect my horses to be stading quietry tied to the trailer for a couple of hours with no accidents. Granted I wouldn't leave them alone tied there (or anywhere) but, for instance, at endurance rides it's not unusual to see horses tied to the trailer for the night and I've seen no horse acting up. Do you think these people used force? I doubt it.

Trakehners2000
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:25 AM
I'm curious Siegi, if a stall is not available and you don't have a portable corral (or there is no room to set one up) how do you deal with th horse all day? I agree that proper training is necessary but I expect my horses to be stading quietry tied to the trailer for a couple of hours with no accidents. Granted I wouldn't leave them alone tied there (or anywhere) but, for instance, at endurance rides it's not unusual to see horses tied to the trailer for the night and I've seen no horse acting up. Do you think these people used force? I doubt it.

NHWR-I agree with you-GREAT TOPIC-:
Training a horse to tie for long periods is ESSENTIAL-for trailer hauling, especially. Anyone who is not comfortable tying their horse for two hours or more has no business expecting that horse to trailer anywhere.
HOW can you expect a horse that you have NEVER asked to stand tied for more than 20 minutes, in a calm environment, to stand still for hours in a bouncing trailer?

People need to get REAL....a trained horse is a happier horse....do you NOT send your children to school, because they'd be happier not going?
I see many happy horses camping, standing tied for hours. These horses are able to get out and have fuller lives because they have fuller education. Next you'll be telling me it is cruel to expect a child to sit in their chair during a classroom period...

Training a horse to tie is more of a mental/emotional training of the horse....and is no more cruel than expecting you to go to work, or your child to stay in a classroom. IT DOES NOT BREAK THEIR SPIRIT....IT TEACHES THEM PATIENCE.....and patience is a virtue.:cool:

THE HORSES I FEEL SORRY FOR ARE THE ONES WITHOUT THE EDUCATION

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:34 AM
nhwr - your quote "I find it makes the horses more secure, independent and self assured. " This is after you have them tied to an oak tree for a couple of hours? I think it's more likely to end up with a horse that SEEMS quiet because it's given up. As a flight animal it's important to a horse to always see a way out. Once there's no more way out, the horse basically surrenders, but rest assured that he will always look for that way. While I understand that it's necessary to be able to restrain a horse for certain things, I've always thought it highly irresponsible of owners to tie their horses to their trailers (and I've seen a few trailers damaged quite heavily because of that). I have heard of broken necks in horses wearing two nylon halters and that were tied to old trees.

There are all kinds of ways to teach horses - brute force has never been one to aspire to in my book. There is a reason people are more intelligent than horses.... :-)


Where is the 'applause icon' when I need it...????^%$^%$^@#

I do not subscribe to horses being tied for hours ANYWHERE..but then I don't have quarterhorses or trailhorses and so I think I would not like to generalize this statement. I don't know what other disciplines do with their horses and frankly it does not really worry me either.
I have dressage horses and they DON't get tied to the trailer...NO WAY!!
If I can't afford a boarding stall or have a friend that can let me use a stall while at the show- I won't go to the show....basta! They are dancers and happy - trusting and energized animals- they do NOT lend themselves to be tied to a trailer for hours in the dust- while other trailers whizz by and loose dogs go bezerk and crazy mothers push their babycarts with screaming rascals by...no way in HELL!!!
You can't have it both ways...the energized beautiful master beast that makes people go WOW what a nice horse with great gaits...and then next you know he is tied to the trailer- his engine shut off, while I munch down a hotdog and review my score...NOPE that's not MY reality!!!

and PS: my horses trailer very nicely thankyou- they are perfectly happy in a trailer that is moving, they will wait after arriving for 5 to 10 minutes- but that is completely different than being tied to the outside of a trailer- usually in a passageway- where traffic passes by...there is no connection between the two topics...:(

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:41 AM
I have a friend whose young horses all learn to stand in a tie stall in the barn, where she can stick them while they cool out/dry off once they are ridden. She also does the tie & switch in the arena sometimes. I am thinking of one or two of these stalls in addition to the boxes when my addition goes up.


I use that method with my 2 year old and also did with my now 7 year old- when I got him as a 2 year old- this is quite safe and a controlled environment- plus I never leave the area..EVER. It's a great way to teach patience and trust- but it is a closed, controlled area...

it proved to be a safe and good method and the 7yr old is pretty bomb proof.

TheWeather
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:46 AM
I am speechless as I read through some of the posts! How long does it take to "prove" that a horse can is good to go? I have never tied any of my clients horses, or any of my own, for that matter, for large amounts of time just to "prove" that they could do it! When I am training my foals I will tie them, groom them, have "fun" with them, and they realize that being "tied" is a fun, rewarding experience. I've NEVER had any problems with my own horses at shows or anywhere else, for that matter. I expected them to stand, and they do it, because they have manners. As for clients horses that "came" unwilling to stand, I treat them as I do my own "foals" we go back, and learn. Grooming is fun, standing tied is cool, and at shows I have never had problems! Strange, I've never tied them out for hours, and if I EVER had seen someone doing this to my horse, or to someones that I knew, I would let that horses owner know in a second. There are other ways of working through those problems, I'll put my name here on the line that there are. Why don't you go stand next to the horse for the same amount of time..and see how YOU like standing there for a "FEW" hours! Better yet, let me tie you to a tree, on a short lead, and see how you like it! Reminds me of the people on "survivor" or other reality game shows that try to stand in one place the longest..gets really boring!! At least at a show, if the horse does have to be tied, there is a lot going on, and the horse has something to look at...I just don't see the need for this type of training, I've had to deal with too many horses that hate life because of "training" methods like these..:mad:

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:49 AM
tend to agree with 'theweather'...it seems foreign to me too...

TheWeather
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:58 AM
I have a friend whose young horses all learn to stand in a tie stall in the barn, where she can stick them while they cool out/dry off once they are ridden. She also does the tie & switch in the arena sometimes. I am thinking of one or two of these stalls in addition to the boxes when my addition goes up.

And here I learned, while I was "learning" about horses/riding..that when you are done "riding" you should walk your horse out to cool/dry it! Whatever happened to "this" method..am I the only one that does this still? I've ridden a LOT of horses, but I have never been in such a rush to get on the next one, or have to do so much, that I didn't have time to cool/dry it by walking it out...relaxing us both. I then have a horse that really likes me..and will do anything I want it to, including standing tied..when I ask. Why, because I have my horse to a point that it will do anything for me, no matter what I ask..I'm currently workin with a horse that, when it "reacted" to a terribly mean trainer, he took it,put on hobbles, tied it's head between its feet, and left it standing there for hours..or, tied its head to its side, and left it standing there for hours, so the horse would "bend and flex" I'm now trying to teach this horse that it can trust a human..I hope I never cross paths with the person who did this to a trusting creature..I don't know what I would do...I see the broken eyes, body, fear,etc.. in this horses eyes...:mad:

Trakehners2000
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:00 AM
Where is the 'applause icon' when I need it...????^%$^%$^@#

I do not subscribe to horses being tied for hours ANYWHERE..but then I don't have quarterhorses or trailhorses and so I think I would not like to generalize this statement. I don't know what other disciplines do with their horses and frankly it does not really worry me either.
I have dressage horses and they DON't get tied to the trailer...NO WAY!!
If I can't afford a boarding stall or have a friend that can let me use a stall while at the show- I won't go to the show....basta! They are dancers and happy - trusting and energized animals- they do NOT lend themselves to be tied to a trailer for hours in the dust- while other trailers whizz by and loose dogs go bezerk and crazy mothers push their babycarts with screaming rascals by...no way in HELL!!!
You can't have it both ways...the energized beautiful master beast that makes people go WOW what a nice horse with great gaits...and then next you know he is tied to the trailer- his engine shut off, while I munch down a hotdog and review my score...NOPE that's not MY reality!!!

Sabine, WOW, this is the FIRST time we haven't agreed on a topic!!!!!:eek:

If your horse is hauled to the show, HE IS TIED FOR HOURS. AND YES< you can have it both ways, MAN O MAN if my Arab Trakehner STALLION can do it....Geez...I think anybody can...
I don't know how much more of an "energized, beautiful master beast" you can get!!!!!!!!!!!! Especially one that is fit enough to compete in endurance and Dressage. JUST BECAUSE YOUR KID IS IN SPORTS< DOESNT MEAN HE GETS A FREE PASS OUTTA CLASSROOMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST because he is an athlete, doesn't mean he doesn't have to have manners and a brain.

My horse not only does dressage, he does distance, halter, hunter and ties to the trailer, as well as a few other things...and he is a happy horse.... & a well educated horse.... :yes: some of the happiest horses I have seen are ones that go camping...you could open your mind a learn a lot from their owners...only God knows where the world would be today if throughout history horses had not learned to stand tied to a post....:no:

Maybe this is the missing link on why many western, 4-H and endurance horses are quieter than dressage horses?????

To me, this is, like NHWR said, a standard part of the horses first education.

My horse is unconventional though...he does a few other odd things that traditional dressage horses don't do...just for fun....BTW, he has a great time doing them....

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/6102621/164979682.jpg

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/6102621/164979681.jpg

Because something is foreign to you, doesn't make it wrong. How do you think people ever managed before cars...do you think they had their kids hold their horses instead of tying them? What about all the amish and slip stalls? Or the horses at fairs with slip stalls? Do you think all the people over the centuries that had horses that actually tied for long periods were wrong? No, these were horses that had good work ethics...Geezzz you better go tell my old amish farrier in Ohio that all these years it has been wrong of him to drive his horse somewhere and leave it tied....with a buggy and harness on!!!!!!!! And that all those, um twelve...ties in his blacksmith shop are horrible...because he certainly leaves those horses tied when he is working, maybe for hours and hours...until their owners pick them up....and he has not had a probem...and he is in his seventies!!!!!! Has been a farrier all his life...

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:05 AM
Sorry Christina- still friends!- but I don't agree...maybe I have been burned bad- I lost 2 horses to tying/cross tieing accidents..a total of 70K down the drain- I won't do it again - ever...Sorry!!!

Trakehners2000
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:37 AM
One of the guidelines when tying a horse for long periods is to be completely sure on the length of the rope, that it is correct and has not only a 'quick release' feature, but also a 'giving' feature...either the rope itself has elastic quaility or the part where it is attatched to the wall is elastic...a poplular method, used where I board, is a quick realease type tie, fashioned to the indoor arena (SOLID) wall, I think a solid wall is essential...and the place where the tie is attatched to the wall...is attatched by by truck inner tube material, very elastic and encourages the horse not to pull. Also to be used is leather halter or a halter with a leather 'break away feature'. I might add that to get better effect of the tying lesson, the horse should be saddled, and the owner/trainer should either work another horse during this time, to watch the horse, or work in the barn...be around to keep an eye on the horse.

and.....off topic...it is good to teach your horse to STAND around, with you on him.....

I board at a cutting horse/team penning/working cow horse training facility. Sometimes when I ride, I am fortunate enough to have this place to expose my horse to many things...like cattle, we sometimes go down to ride, and there are twenty cattle in the indoor, and two to eight cowboys in there working them...I sit there on Shadrach in the arena and wait till they switch cattle and take a break. I have simply, 'sat' there on him for 20 minutes. Mentally, it is superb for them to learn that it is okay to relax, sleep, chill, watch what is going on...and not really have to work.
Then I ride around. It is so good for him to just learn to stand there and have all this commotion going on around him. He is not afraid of the cattle or the other horses flying around chasing them...
It is so annoying to me that dressage horses where supposed to be trained for useful, dependable mounts....and many dressage horses are neither useful or dependable outside of four walls.:cry: :( :no:


IT has been invaluable to me boarding there, picking up on little things that make these working western horses such great partners, and yes, these cowboys 'dance' and work with their horses too..Many of these horses cost as much or more than our dressage horses, and these horse actually pay their way...many of the men/women I ride with have won trailers, saddles and lots of cold hard cash. These men know a ton, and are in no way 'beneath' what our dressage horses, or less valuable than dressage horses are...these guys simply expect MORE from their horses,

and FYI...the trainer at this barn....all of his working cow horses and reining horses could so do up to Third Level.:yes:

nhwr
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:46 AM
I don't just tie a young horse to an oak tree and walk away :no: It is progressive thing in the "learning to tie" process. I start out with my youngsters by just looping a lead line over a rail in their stall and putting some pressure on it so they learn to step forward to relieve the pressure. This takes some time because it is a horse's natural tendancy to move into consistant pressure. But a horse that never learns this lesson has never truly learned to tie. Once they have this concept down I tie them to the tree through a looped innertube with a swiveling snap and wait. I keep a lunge whip handy. When they set back as they inevidibly will, I just tap them gently on the butt to remind them to step forward. Once they have this lesson down, I work on getting them to stand there for a longer and longer time, gradually working up to an hour or two over several weeks. I do stay there with the horse for whatever period of time it is there (and I like it fine :yes: ). At no time do I ever leave the horse alone. Oh I may retreat as far as 20 yards off or so. But I get up close and personal frequently to hand out a treat or a scratch if the horse is standing there quietly. Mostly I am in a lawn chair reading a book, listening to my ipod or doing the things I have learned to do to get through boring situations, just like I want my horse to do.

I never use a leather halter for this process because the one thing I don't want the horse to learn is that pulling back is successful. However I always have a sharp pocket knife in one pocket and pebbles in the another. If the horse fidgets, they get beaned with a pebble. If they stand quietly, they get a reward. They learn pretty quickly to just be. It takes a significant amount of time on my part but it is usually a good time for them. And they come through the process knowing that being tied for a while is no big deal, that they can just hang out and watch the world go by without stressing. It has nothing to do with brute force or broken spirit. I find it makes them confident, independent individuals.

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:52 AM
sounds like an interesting place to board. I have not been so lucky.

I lost 2 horses at a place where 525 horses were boarded in a very small place with lots of other activities going on at the same time- a true zoo. Plus trainers of all sorts and level of competency and incompetency in all kinds of disciplines were crosstraining. It was a nightmare of a place.
One gorgeous Andi cross overturned in the crossties when a loose dog stormed into his place out of nowhere...
a very expensive imported Hanoverian repeatedly reared and hurt his sacrum in the cross ties- when being severely spooked by- loose horses galopping by, housewives pushing baby carts with screaming kids throwing balls in direct vicinity...it was impossible to keep control....I gave up- moved and put a whole new layer of precaution around my horses..it has served me well...to the point where they can be standing on a loose lead rope in front of their stalls while being tacked- and nothing makes them leave...they are peaceful and grounded...the environment is everything- you can not imagine a crowded -nervous and loud barn- and how a horse can be unsettled by that....

Trakehners2000
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:55 AM
NHWR, True about the non leather to start out with, though that is only if you ARE right there with a knife...I have seen horses that have learned to break halters too, and it is worth the time and effort you have to schedule for it, and I think it is like trailer loading...and part of trailer training....it is something you should dedicate time to to make certain your horse knows and really understands, and "gets" the lesson. Sounds like you do a great job.:yes:

Trakehners2000
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:58 AM
Sabine, It sounds like you boarded at a county fair!!!!!!!:eek:

Good to hear you got into a more peaceful surronding!!!! :yes:

Karoline
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:58 AM
I am sorry for your horses. Terrible way to get hurt and easy to ensure it never happens again. Dont attach your cross tie to the wall directly, attach them to a single loop made of a cotton shoe lace. It breaks to pressure.

Better, is to put to small loops of wool thread on each side of your halter and attach the x-tie there. Breaks immediately.

Though like you, I have two horses who ground tie perfectly so little need to attach them.

Kit
Jul. 9, 2006, 02:18 AM
I think everyone here has different ideas of tying up. On one hand you have the people who tie up for hours and go away - that is unacceptable. Then you have the people who take the time and tie up their youngsters and groom them and leave them to stand while they are mucking out paddocks or stalls and generally being in touch with them so that they learn to stand happily. They build up the time slowly so that the horse is quite happy to stand anywhere and know that you are there to look after them. They are not expected to stand for hours without attention. I think we all agree that that is terrible. And I can't even imagine anyone tying up a horse with its head tied between its legs or to its side. That is not a horse person. That is cruelty. No doubt. When I go to a show, my horse will be tied to the float (to breakable twine just in case something out of the ordinary happens) for the day when she is not being ridden. BUT, she has a hay net, water, feed when needed, me popping back and forth or sitting nearby in a chair - whatever. I do think it's a good thing when a young horse is being handled to teach it to tie up and learn to relax and not fuss about. It's not about being tied up for hours on end. One of my friends got a mare a few years back who would not stand still when tied up (danced). In the end she tied her up and sat in her barn and watched and waited until she did stand. As soon as she stood still (and it took hours!) she instantly went to her, praised her and untied her and put her in her paddock. So she learned to stand quietly. She never has a problem now. She learned later that the farrier dreaded shoeing her as she wouldn't stand still. Wouldn't know it was the same horse now! So it's all about being sensible and I think learning to be tied up is just part of the education process. nhwr I think your training process is great. However, I don't live in a boarding situation with horses everywhere and my horse is never in cross ties. So I can't comment on that situation.

nhwr
Jul. 9, 2006, 02:19 AM
Sabine, I am sorry about your horses. I knew about Milagro but not the 2nd one. It is precisely because of experiences at the place you used to board ( I used to board there too) that I started doing this with my youngsters. I agree that environment is everything. But you can't always control the environment. Even a quiet facility can have an unexpected mishap. You can't completely eliminate the risk when tying a horse. Having a horse that has some inner assurance that these experiences provide is some added insurance.

FWIW, I hate cross ties because I think they make it difficult for a horse to figure out where the pressure is really coming from. And the kind of setup at the place-that-shall-not-be-named, concrete and usually wet, are a recipe for disaster, IMO.

enjoytheride
Jul. 9, 2006, 07:08 AM
I don't believe that because dressage horses are athletes they can't be expected to stand still.

Barrel racing and cow roping horses are athletes. While many of these western horses have excellent training others are expected to enter the box and run like hell. They can rear, kick, buck, have tie downs and big bits to hold them, they are nuts in the competition arena (again not all).

If these crazy western horses (again not all) can act like loonatics in the arena and then stand tied to their trailer for a couple hours at a show, why can't a fancy dressage horse? After all, they're supposed to be highly trained animals that can half pass, pirouette, etc. Why can't they be well trained enough to stand still?

sm
Jul. 9, 2006, 07:49 AM
nhwr's OP sounds more like obedience training, or a tool to help the young horse understand not to drag whatever's at the other end of the rope (be it a tree or a person). More of a ground manners lesson, "this is a rope/leadline and we don't pull and drag against it."

Other exercises in tieing can be a bit different and wrong.

And I NEVER leave a horse alone in cross ties, or any ties, I don't care how dead quiet the horse is. Anything can happen, and it doesn't need to be the horse's fault when something goes wrong.

Trotsky
Jul. 9, 2006, 08:26 AM
FWIW, I hate cross ties because I think they make it difficult for a horse to figure out where the pressure is really coming from.
Ditto.

I have camped with horses tied to the trailer or to a high line, have worked competitive trail rides where horses are tied overnight (can and do lie down while tied) and organized probably 50 dressage shows where there was little or no stabling. Standing patiently tied to a suitable place should be part of every horse's education. Anyone who shows in any discipline in most of America better have a horse that can be securely (please, no twine) tied to the trailer or they are going to have a miserable day. A big shady old oak tree is a fine training device.

Cross-ties -- now those scare me. I have never willingly put a horse in cross-ties. If there is no safe tying spot available, I'd rather teach them to ground tie then use cross-ties.

Unrelated to anything ... I attended the British National Driving Championships years ago and was fascinated to learn there was NO stabling. Everyone had to bring their own overnight plan. As a show organizer who had to cope with fine facilities with little available stabling, I was fascinated by the concept. Many of the top UK driving horses were standing tied overnight.

bjrudq
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:40 AM
i never cross tie my horses any more. they are tied in their stalls for grooming and tacking. i've never had an accident with cross ties but i know plenty of other people who have.

my younger mare tied well at one time but recently starting pulling back, so there is a hole in the training there somewhere. i don't tie her in the stall; i simply halter her and loop the lead around a bar. and sometimes work on teaching her to stand still without being tied.

i used to take out the center partition in the trailer and let her travel loose. that worked well for her. she liked to turn around and face backwards.

clanter
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:51 AM
Sorry Christina- still friends!- but I don't agree...maybe I have been burned bad- I lost 2 horses to tying/cross tieing accidents..a total of 70K down the drain- I won't do it again - ever...Sorry!!!


suggest you try overhead tie line...if they fall it will sang with them it will allow them to turn around to see what's behind them but keeps them in one place

mzpeepers
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:08 AM
You can't have it both ways...the energized beautiful master beast that makes people go WOW what a nice horse with great gaits...and then next you know he is tied to the trailer- his engine shut off, while I munch down a hotdog and review my score...NOPE that's not MY reality!!!



Look, sorry to hear about your horses. Like someone else said it sounds like you were boarding at the county fair.
Nevertheless....the above statement makes me cringe because somehow this "beautiful master beast" sounds like an ill mannered, brainless, large monster (which might explain some other training techniques you support but that is a whole 'nother discussion - which I don't want to get into - no, no, no). By definition alone, I DO expect a dressage horse to have decent manners and a brain. Breed has absolutely nothing to do with it. Lack of proper training does.
Personally I'm on the other side of the fence when it comes to this. I'm sick and tired of hearing DQs complain about "stroller pushing housewives" and the likes because they are not able to train and/or control their horse outside of the show ring.

mzpeepers
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:10 AM
think everyone here has different ideas of tying up. On one hand you have the people who tie up for hours and go away - that is unacceptable. Then you have the people who take the time and tie up their youngsters and groom them and leave them to stand while they are mucking out paddocks or stalls and generally being in touch with them so that they learn to stand happily. They build up the time slowly so that the horse is quite happy to stand anywhere and know that you are there to look after them

EXACTLY!!!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:43 AM
Just my opinion - which is - if I EVER saw a trainer pulling this on MY horse - well, it wouldn't happen. Period. For several reasons.

(1) MOST IMPORTANTLY, for gut reasons alone, they need to move around. My horse does trailer tie, but he has HAY and water and it is never for that long a period of time.

(2) Vision etc is blocked by the trailer. Lots of going on at shows etc. Why have your horse possibly panic because something happens because they can't escape? Which is why I would never leave for horse unattended for any length of time. It's natural prey behavior.

(3) After the track, my horse will only pee in a stall, especially in a strange place. Why put him under that kind of stress? In addition, he's very fastidious - when we had a run stall, regardless of weather, he'd leave to poop rather than use his stall. Why have him in a situation where he has to stand in his own soil?

I am responsible for my horse, which means I should not be putting him a situation where there can be issues. Tieing thehorse to a tree for hours, in my opinion, would destroy that trust.

Could my horse stand for hours almost immobile? You betcha. At the last barn, they kept the stall guards up during the day for better air flow (the big tubing ones, wrapped chain type). The stall door was not closed that night as it should have been. My guy put his foot through the two guards. And he had the smarts and presence of mind to stand there until someone showed up the enxt morning. By the pile of poop behind him, it was obvious it had been a while.

But that was a mistake, and not repeated. To do that on purpose? I can't see the benefit. Only the possible disastrous outcomes.

And ditto this:

think everyone here has different ideas of tying up. On one hand you have the people who tie up for hours and go away - that is unacceptable. Then you have the people who take the time and tie up their youngsters and groom them and leave them to stand while they are mucking out paddocks or stalls and generally being in touch with them so that they learn to stand happily. They build up the time slowly so that the horse is quite happy to stand anywhere and know that you are there to look after them

bjrudq
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:17 AM
if they are tied properly they CAN move around. they should be able to move their hqs from side to side, and some horses need to be taught this, so their feet don't get "stuck" which can lead to a panic(especially in a trailer.)

when i was growing up all the school horses were in tie stalls. they had hay and water and enough room to lay down, but nontheless were tied all night and much of the day.

not just the grades and quarter horses, but the ottbs and warmbloods, too.

it's not how i would choose to keep a horse, but it is definitely do-able.

i, too, do not understand why fancy warmbloods do not need to have good manners. my old trainer's grand prix horse used to snatch the lead rope out of her hands to try to grab a mouthful of grass. what the hell is that?

and i had a jumper trainer who rode a big oldenburg stallion, who had to be held so he could even get on him. another big wb gelding was a bully to his handlers. at one show, i was grooming for this trainer along with another gal who did hunters, but also western pleasure and showmanship. she got stuck holding the bully for a long period of time one day, and put him to work learning showmanship. LOL!

he behaved, at least for her, after that. and it didn't affect his jumping ability one bit!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:37 AM
if they are tied properly they CAN move around. they should be able to move their hqs from side to side, and some horses need to be taught this, so their feet don't get "stuck" which can lead to a panic(especially in a trailer.)

when i was growing up all the school horses were in tie stalls. they had hay and water and enough room to lay down, but nontheless were tied all night and much of the day.

not just the grades and quarter horses, but the ottbs and warmbloods, too.

it's not how i would choose to keep a horse, but it is definitely do-able.



seems like a recipe for promoting degenerative osteoarthritis...just my opinion.

clanter
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:44 AM
if a horse is tied to a trailer properly they can turn ... but not all trailers are safe to tie to

sm
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:50 AM
"i've never had an accident with cross ties but i know plenty of other people who have."

We have the quick release cross ties, I use 'em but I don't trust 'em: they are not hooked directly to the wall. They're attached by baling twine to the wall ring with a pair of scissors hanging on the same wall ring. Just incase the quick release isn't quick enough I can instantly cut through the twine.

There are some horriffic freak accidents that can happen, none to do with how dead quiet a horse is or how happily he has been taught to stand. I simply don't ever leave a tied horse alone.

TheWeather
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:02 PM
So, first, nhwr, thank you for "clarifying" that you never leave your horses standing there...alone. I do still disagree with just tying..and letting stand for that long amount of time. I have been taught that there are "other" ways, to teach ground manners, and all my horses are well behaved. I won't put up with a horse that thinks they are the boss and decide what when where how and why.




when i was growing up all the school horses were in tie stalls. they had hay and water and enough room to lay down, but nonetheless were tied all night and much of the day.
not just the grades and quarter horses, but the ottbs and warmbloods, too.
it's not how i would choose to keep a horse, but it is definitely do-able.
And that is the first mistake of a parent..allowin their child to believe that this type of stabling behaver ist "do-able"... I've been to places who kept their horses like this. In Germany it has since been banned...why would they ban something that is "do-able"? Probably..because it is not! I would be the first to openly tell any person I was there with, that this is NOT do-able..and turn to the stable owner, and let them know exactly why I would never step into their stall/stable premises again. I've seen cows kept this way, and always felt a sadness that any animal could be kept this way. :mad:


i, too, do not understand why fancy warmbloods do not need to have good manners. my old trainer's grand prix horse used to snatch the lead rope out of her hands to try to grab a mouthful of grass. what the hell is that?

It is the person that needs the lessons, not the horse! If I handle a horse, I let it know right off, what it is allowed to do with me, and what is off limits..from there, we build a relationship, with me being the boss! This "old trainer" should have taken lessons on how to handle a horse...sometimes being a "grand prix" rider does not mean that you learned how horse should act when you are on the ground..or, she didn't mind it. I've seen all types. Usually, these types of problems depend on who is at the end of the line, is what I'm trying to say...And, I've seen "other" breeds of horses do the same thing..it is not limited to just the WB scene.

shireluver
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:35 PM
I'm sorry, this thread is making me laugh:lol: I don't want to force my believes on anyone, but why would you pussyfoot around an animal that weighs 10 times what you do.

Stating that your "athlete" doesn't or shouldn't have to stand tied, in my mind is the same as saying, it's okay if my stud mounts everything that walks by, and generally acts like an idiot when I am out in public.

I have owned many horses from Trakhners to Quarter Horses, to Shires, and I expected the same behavior from all of them. These are animals that need to have boundaries and limitations. And no, I don't believe in using cruelty to get anything accomplished. My horse are just as spoiled as the next person's, they just know who the "alpha" mare in the herd is.;)

If you don't expect your horse to stand tied because of their flight instinct, what about when you are riding? Is it okay for your horse to take off with you because they were scared? I understand the jump, turn, look reaction, but bolting is not acceptable.

I guess what I am trying to say, is my horses are just as spoiled as yours, believe me. They just now who the dominant animal in the relationship between them and I is.

bjrudq
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:39 PM
ties stalls were common, and considered acceptable and humane by many horsemen, back in the day. the horses were healthy and sound, and were ridden at least twice and sometimes 3 or 4 times a day. they were turned out to pasture on mondays. many of these faithful old schoolies worked well into their twenties.

like i said, it's not what i would want for my horse. i am a believer in maximum turnout. but it worked for my old instructor. (who happened to be german, fwiw.)

when he moved to his own farm in the mid-60s the schoolies did have boxes but still only had one day in the pasture. i don't think many people have tie stalls anymore...my older neighbor had tie stalls for his belgians, but they were never in them for every long, and i know a trainer who has a tie stall that is used strictly for teaching horses to tie.

re: the grand prix horse with bad manners:

"It is the person that needs the lessons, not the horse!"

they both do.

sm
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:40 PM
shireluver, I think every one here ties their horses. The question is for how long and if they are left unattended.

shireluver
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:47 PM
Yes, my horses are left unattended. Now, I don't leave the property with them tied, but I will go do other things on the property while they are tied. Checking on them, if even from a distance every once in a awhile.

I also want to clarify, they usually are only tied for normal everyday things like grooming, saddling, bathing, etc., but if they pull back or act stupid while standing there, they may have to stay there a little longer. Kind of like standing in the corner :)

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jul. 9, 2006, 12:55 PM
Yes, my horses are left unattended. Now, I don't leave the property with them tied, but I will go do other things on the property while they are tied. Checking on them, if even from a distance every once in a awhile.

I also want to clarify, they usually are only tied for normal everyday things like grooming, saddling, bathing, etc., but if they pull back or act stupid while standing there, they may have to stay there a little longer. Kind of like standing in the corner :)

I wonder if horses can make the connection between the behavior and the punishment?

Equus Caballus
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:30 PM
I wonder if horses can make the connection between the behavior and the punishment?

In my opinion, this is not a punishment for which the horse needs to make a connection to understand. Think of it like this: If your horse tossed his head histerically well you were riding him, you would do your best to correct the behavior as it happened (just as you would if he misbehaved while tied). But maybe the next day you would ride him with a martingale to prevent him from tossing his head. Does he connect the martingale to the head tossing of yesterday? Probably not, because it is not meant to be a punishment for yesterday, it is meant to be a seperate training experience. If your horse misbehaves while tied, it is an indication that he has not learned to be tied well enough, just as misbehavior under saddle means that he needs more training there. Tying him longer is not a PUNISHMENT for his earlier behavior. It is simply additional and seperate training to help the earlier behavior disappear. So, no connection needs to be made. Get it?

Some of you seem to think tying is "cruel". This I don't understand. I can see how it has potential to be cruel, but so does a bit, so do spurs, so does a riding crop... so does just about every training method used. However, tying is not cruel when done properly. For instance: After I ride, I cool my horse out, loosen his girth, and offer him a drink. Then, I tie him to the wall in our indoor arena for 1-2 hours while I clean stalls, wash buckets, eat dinner, whatever. I never leave the property. He is tied high so he can't get his leg over the rope, but loose enough so that he can lower his head to a comfortable level. He can move around a bit if he wants to, he is standing in the shaded, comfortable arena in soft footing, and when I come get him after a few hours, he is happily dozing. He has NEVER balked going into the arena in anticipation of being tied. He is happy to stand quietly after a long workout, and he learns to stand quietly no matter what. I don't do it every day, but maybe three times a week. What in the world is cruel about this? I have noticed that the horses that I tie for a few hours each week are much more patient and better mannered horses even on days when they haven't been tied. They don't just "seem" quieter because they have "given up". They learn to be patient. Yes, there is a wrong way to tie a horse. But lets also aknowledge that there is a correct and in my opinion nessecary way to use tying as a training tool.

shireluver
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:31 PM
Yes, they can. Horses are very smart. Have you ever seen a horse that nips, and has got swatted for it, duck the next time it nips, I have.

BornToRide
Jul. 9, 2006, 01:40 PM
To me it is really not about tying but all about giving in to pressure. A horse that has not learned to always give to pressure is simply not a safe horse to be around as this giving to pressure may come up in other situations as well, not just tying.

Once a horse knows to always yield, they can easily stand tied for hours without any problems. People go out camping with their horses and tied them to high lines for the night if no other means of confinement is available. You could not do this with a horse that does not tie well.

I believe that any horse can be safely and kindly trained to do effectively yield to pressure and it is always best to start young. Unfortunately often not enough consideration is given to this basic training step when horses are handled na in some cases diet might even be a consideration, if a horse gets too much energy from the feed, so they tend to have focus issues which might affect their sensibility in general, IOW the excess energy makes them ping outside of their brain and therefore generally overreact to outside stimuli.

enjoytheride
Jul. 9, 2006, 02:32 PM
And now standing tied causes arthritis? Give me a break.

My horse isn't tied at shows but he stands in one spot in his stall and sleeps for hours. What's the difference if he were tied?

MBPearls
Jul. 9, 2006, 03:48 PM
How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

Seems rather... odd... to me.

My mare stands still when tied, but I don't make it last hours, because I don't have the desire to. Maybe since I don't live on the property she's at (an hour away, actually) and my time with her is limited, I find making her do "silly pet tricks" a waste of my horse time. She's well mannered while I groom, saddle, etc. If I planned on leaving her for "a few hours" I'd just take her back to her stall/pasture. Why make her stand around all tied up when I obviously have more important things to do?

flypony74
Jul. 9, 2006, 03:49 PM
My horses will stand tied quietly in pretty much any situation, because they have been TAUGHT to stand tied quietly. That doesn't mean that I tie them up and leave them for hours, but if I had to, they would stand there. I have owned my mare for 20 years, and she has stood tied to the trailer at numerous shows without any ill effects, because she was taught to stand tied properly and progressively as a baby. You simply cannot count on having a stall at every outing, and I think that tying is just normal manners that every horse should know/learn. I can't imagine not expecting my horses to tie well.

kkj
Jul. 9, 2006, 03:56 PM
I showed a lot in Quarter Horses as a kid. Now those horses had ground manners. I am not a natural horsemanship worshipper but I expect my horses to have great ground manners, to yield to pressure and to tie well. I don't leave my horse tied unattended or tie her to a trailer and walk away, but she knows how to tie and will do it quietly and safely. She is a hot 4 year old mare. I do use a safety halter and if I cross tie her it is attached to twine that would break. Since she learned to tie as a yearling, she has never pulled back.

Growing up on a horse ranch we taught all the youngsters to tie, also to clip and trailer, be good for the farrier etc. There is no reason why any horse regardless of breed cannot be taught to tie safely. The accidents I have seen have been more stupid stuff like someone trying to pull a sensitive horse's mane while he was cross tied and he flipped.

I also teach them to give to pressure so if they ever get stuck in a rope or something, they will not pannic. My horse recently stepped on her lead rope while I was hand grazing her. A tree frog jumped on me and I was totally distracted and was not watching the rope. She stood there very quietly with her head pulled to the ground without breaking the rope or halter or yanking her head up because she has been taught not to panic when restrained. She will do the same if you wrap a rope around a leg. Cowboys have safely taught horses to do this forever. I don't see how it can be cruel to teach a horse to react in a safe way.

merrygoround
Jul. 9, 2006, 04:04 PM
I guess I'm in the tying to groom ,crosstieing to tack up, but never tying to a trailer club. In 25 years I have never tied to a trailer. If I 'm traveling one horse, they are loose. Not brave enough to do it with two or more, but dealers do it all the time, not that they don't do a lot of other really strange things.

raffadasmom
Jul. 9, 2006, 04:08 PM
How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

Seems rather... odd... to me.

Because my horses are not people, that's why.
No offense, but what kind of a sheltered life have you and your horses been living? Don't you ever haul somewhere to go on a nice trail ride? Do you ever go to one-day schooling shows where there aren't stalls available?
Or do your horses spend 23 hours a day in a 12x12 box stall?
THAT, IMO, is a horribly sad existence for a horse.
I have four geldings that will -- dare I say -- contentedly kick back while tied to the trailer for hours, munching all-they-can-eat hay out of their hay bags and drinking out of a big bucket attached to the side of the trailer. There usually are two or more of them when I haul somewhere, so they are not alone. Not to mention other horses tied to trailers around them for company.
I also situate the trailer so they have shade. I have a long four-horse trailer and they are tied high but loose enough so they have about 8 feet to move around and look around. Sometimes they'll even take a nap while standing there.

nhwr
Jul. 9, 2006, 04:08 PM
How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

Seems rather... odd... to me.
How many people would consent to being hauled to a remote location, tacked up and ridden through a dressage test? :lol: Why do you expect that because you enjoy something your horse does? Or conversely because you would find something problematic, your horse would? They may or may not.

Horses aren't people. They don't have the same expectations or desires as people. It seems very odd to me when people expect that they do. Leaving a horse tied for awhile at a horseshow is certainly no worse for them than leaving them standing in a stall all day.

If they are secure individuals, they can be brave and inquisitive about new situations, if they have been properly prepared.

Mels
Jul. 9, 2006, 04:18 PM
My mare stands still when tied, but I don't make it last hours, because I don't have the desire to. Maybe since I don't live on the property she's at (an hour away, actually) and my time with her is limited, I find making her do "silly pet tricks" a waste of my horse time.
Maybe I mis-read your post, but since when is standing quietly while tied for any length of time a "silly pet trick?"

Oftentimes when doing weddings with the carriage, we have a break of an hour, two hours or more and leave the horses standing tied to the trailer and they're quite happy to stand and rest.

Part of their training also involves being hobbled and tied to a tree for long periods of time so they learn to stand in one spot without fidgeting. They're very well behaved for weddings, even when standing on the side of the road with cars zooming by, they know from training they're not supposed to move their feet.

I also agree with nwhr, I don't see how people can compare what we as humans feel/enjoy to what a horse would. They're animals, they don't see things like we do and don't even rationalize such things.

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 04:37 PM
nhwr's OP sounds more like obedience training, or a tool to help the young horse understand not to drag whatever's at the other end of the rope (be it a tree or a person). More of a ground manners lesson, "this is a rope/leadline and we don't pull and drag against it."

Other exercises in tieing can be a bit different and wrong.

And I NEVER leave a horse alone in cross ties, or any ties, I don't care how dead quiet the horse is. Anything can happen, and it doesn't need to be the horse's fault when something goes wrong.


Agreed 100%.

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 04:43 PM
Look, sorry to hear about your horses. Like someone else said it sounds like you were boarding at the county fair.
Nevertheless....the above statement makes me cringe because somehow this "beautiful master beast" sounds like an ill mannered, brainless, large monster (which might explain some other training techniques you support but that is a whole 'nother discussion - which I don't want to get into - no, no, no). By definition alone, I DO expect a dressage horse to have decent manners and a brain. Breed has absolutely nothing to do with it. Lack of proper training does.
Personally I'm on the other side of the fence when it comes to this. I'm sick and tired of hearing DQs complain about "stroller pushing housewives" and the likes because they are not able to train and/or control their horse outside of the show ring.

I have no problem training my horse and navigating around show grounds just fine- thank you. What I tried to say which I guess was not understood is- that I would not leave my horse tied to the trailer and walk away at a show...I think it's an unnecessary risk to take with a valued and loved animal-.....

enjoytheride
Jul. 9, 2006, 04:47 PM
but then what do you do at a show or at a trail ride when there are no stalls?

We never leave them alone at the trailer (although many people do, even overnight) we don't stand next to them. We may be sitting 20 or 30 feet away at a picnic table eating lunch, or changing our clothing in the dressing room.

What's so hard about that?

raffadasmom
Jul. 9, 2006, 05:02 PM
Ah, good point. I also never, ever leave my horses without someone I know well watching them at shows or other strange places. I've sometimes had other competitors I don't know ask me to watch their horse while they go to the show office or to the potty, which I gladly do. But I wouldn't do that myself if I could avoid it.
I've gone to a couple shows alone, but these were places where I knew I could bring my horse with me to the show office or the snack bar. If I had to pee, I went in my trailer.
Luckily, we're usually at a friend's ranch or some other familiar place, and are always in the line of sight of our horses ... or there is someone we trust to keep an eye on them for us if we go anywhere.
--------------------------------------------
BTW: I've had two extremely talented and GORGEOUS dressage prospects offered to me for a steal on different occasions, but they had serious issues with tying. Somebody taught them how NOT to tie well, as in they knew if they pulled back hard enough and long enough, that something eventually would break and they'd be free. They got a little better while they were here for a few months, but never would completely get over it.
In fact, one pulled back and flipped over the first time it was tied because it couldn't break free. I wasn't informed of this "issue" beforehand, or I wouldn't have tied it like a normal horse gets tied at my place. Thank God I know how to tie a bowline knot. I used Blocker tie rings after that so nobody got killed.
But see what happens when they know they can get away if they pull really really hard? Also, both horses REALLY pulled back when I tried to put them in crossties (which I also really HATE.)
I decided to let both go because how the heck could I take them anywhere? Under saddle, these were dreamhorses. But not tying is a hole in a horse that is just way too big to deal with IMO.

nhwr
Jul. 9, 2006, 05:27 PM
I think the issues are subtler than just obedience or ground manners and especially important in dressage. Horses are, by nature, herd animals. When we ask them to perform in the dressage ring, we are asking to be seperate from the herd and shine. This is hard for them, though harder for some than others. I believe that a horse that can be content on its own, seperate from other horses, can focus and perform better because they have the "inner resources" to keep themselves together. Tying them as I have described is a way to facilitate the development of those "inner resources". And once a horse can do it, I try to do it with each horse once a week or so because it is something outside of their nature, a skill that they need to practice to be good at. It is no more cruel to leave a horse tied in a shady spot for an hour or two without food or water than it is to have them outside of their stall or paddock for a ride for that period of time. In fact, it is properly easier on them physically. Plus, if they are bored (boredom is a type of stress), they learn to deal with it in a relatively peaceful envirnoment. And as I come and go, in and out of their "bubble", it facilitates bonding between us. It is not about leaving a horse unattended tied to a trailer. But if the situation arose where I had to do that for a short period of time, as it could at a horse show, I'd have a lot more confidence about the situation for having done this. It is a good thing :yes:

Sabine
Jul. 9, 2006, 05:50 PM
.... What I tried to say which I guess was not understood is- that I would not leave my horse tied to the trailer and walk away at a show...-.....


read it please....WALK AWAY!

that's why you don't go alone to a show- bring a friend, a groom, a SO or anyone that can help and understands....

nhwr
Jul. 9, 2006, 06:34 PM
:lol: It is a lot easier to teach a horse to tie reliably than it is to get my husband to come to a horse show :lol:

Seriously, having an extra set of hands can be helpful. But having people around isn't guarantee that the horse won't be injured. The real issue is whether the horse ties safely or not and how it is tied, IMO.

BornToRide
Jul. 9, 2006, 08:51 PM
I see that my giving to pressure theory flew right over the kookoo's nest....:D Hmmmmmmm


Horses aren't people. They don't have the same expectations or desires as people. It seems very odd to me when people expect that they do. Leaving a horse tied for awhile at a horseshow is certainly no worse for them than leaving them standing in a stall all day.
If you don't mind, would you please send some of that common sense fairy dust to people in need?:winkgrin:

nhwr
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:05 PM
I see that my giving to pressure theory flew right over the kookoo's nest....:D Hmmmmmmm

No, BtR. I think giving to pressure is an important factor. But it is the beginning of the process in my mind. I was trying to think of a term to describe the quality I am thinking of. The best I can come up with is self-pacification.

BornToRide
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:08 PM
I was just making a general teasing sorta statement, not really adressing you per se...just so you know ....;)

bjrudq
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:13 PM
"I see that my giving to pressure theory flew right over the kookoo's nest.... Hmmmmmmm"

no, i got it, and i agree with you and nhwr.(what IS it with people who have difficult initials as their board names?!?!?!)

Huntertwo
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:23 PM
The Quarter Horses where I board are usually started by tying to learn patience. We have a very thick rope hanging from the steel girders in the indoor. It is lowered just enough to clip onto the nose band of the halter.

It is used for the started horses also. This teaches them that they are not going back to their stalls or turnout soon as work is over. Once they learn they are not going anywhere they relax and I have yet to see a horse get *stupid* on them yet. IMO it is an important training tool.

BornToRide
Jul. 9, 2006, 09:42 PM
Great - now all the people I expected to understand the whole concept are responding....:winkgrin:

CanadianGolden
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:02 PM
What about in Pony Club, a highly respected organization with impeccable safety rules? Horses are expected to stand quietly tied to a trailer all day during a rally--and during the awards ceremony etc. you cannot hold them (unless there is a major emergency) so your horse had better have good enough manners to stay tied to a trailer.

If our 3 horses (4th level, PSG, GP dressage horses) can do it, so can yours. They have hay and water, they are supervised, tied with breakaway halters and a cotton lead rope to breakable baling twine. It is neither cruel nor unsafe, they are very happy to stand and eat all day.

MBPearls
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:10 PM
Because my horses are not people, that's why.
No offense, but what kind of a sheltered life have you and your horses been living? Don't you ever haul somewhere to go on a nice trail ride? Do you ever go to one-day schooling shows where there aren't stalls available?
Or do your horses spend 23 hours a day in a 12x12 box stall?
THAT, IMO, is a horribly sad existence for a horse.
I have four geldings that will -- dare I say -- contentedly kick back while tied to the trailer for hours, munching all-they-can-eat hay out of their hay bags and drinking out of a big bucket attached to the side of the trailer. There usually are two or more of them when I haul somewhere, so they are not alone. Not to mention other horses tied to trailers around them for company.
I also situate the trailer so they have shade. I have a long four-horse trailer and they are tied high but loose enough so they have about 8 feet to move around and look around. Sometimes they'll even take a nap while standing there.

Don't show, I find that life to be sad for a horse. As soon as your rider decides they want to move ahead, this horse is sold. Maybe I'm odd in that I have a real bond with my horse, I don't look at her as a commodity to earn me accolades.

Box stall? Good lord, assume much? She has 20 acres of land with ONE other horse. She takes several gallops around the property every day, greets the jumpers on the east side of the property and the Paso Finos on the other. NOt a rough life, if I say so myself.

Don't trailer her anywhere, I have miles and miles of trails to ride on. No point in spending gas money to drive somewhere when all we need (fresh air, open trails, etc) are right where we are.

Maybe my mistake is thinking she deserves to be treated as I would like to be treated. For what it's worth, he ha impeccable ground manners. I'd never leave her tied for a long time, because there's no point. If I don't need her, she can go back to being a horse.

Oh wait, being a horse is wrong. They are supposed to be little dolls to do with what we wish. My bad.

MBPearls
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:14 PM
and... at the risk of stirring up the pot...

Horses don't have the same desires and emotions as people. Several of you have agreed with that statement. So why do the anti-slaughter folks attach human emotions to horses in the killpens?

You can't have it both ways. Just some... food for thought. (bad choice of words, but my mind escapes further analogies)

tbtrailrider
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:17 PM
I am gonna chime in here and take a chance at getting slammed, but my horse stays on a 30 foot tie line tied to a stake in the ground, for 4 to 6 hours a day. This is so he can graze.We have an acre and we dont have to mow. It will all be fenced in soon, but right now, there is only 1/3 acre fenced, he spends the rest of his time there. He is fine with it, and he is a Thoroughbred. I plan to do CTR with him in the distant future, they have to be able to stand tied allnight, however they are tied so they can still lie down, but not get their leg over the tie. Just my 2 cents.

Cheryl:cool:

sidepasser
Jul. 9, 2006, 10:35 PM
I just have to ask you folks: how many of you would buy a horse knowing it would not stand tied? I don't mean stand tied for hours, but not stand tied for a few minutes?

The number one and number two question I get asked when selling a horse is: Does she load and will she stand tied?

So I was curious - would you buy one that wouldn't tie knowing that fact upfront?

CanadianGolden
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:26 PM
Don't show, I find that life to be sad for a horse. As soon as your rider decides they want to move ahead, this horse is sold. Maybe I'm odd in that I have a real bond with my horse, I don't look at her as a commodity to earn me accolades.

Box stall? Good lord, assume much? She has 20 acres of land with ONE other horse. She takes several gallops around the property every day, greets the jumpers on the east side of the property and the Paso Finos on the other. NOt a rough life, if I say so myself.

Don't trailer her anywhere, I have miles and miles of trails to ride on. No point in spending gas money to drive somewhere when all we need (fresh air, open trails, etc) are right where we are.

Maybe my mistake is thinking she deserves to be treated as I would like to be treated. For what it's worth, he ha impeccable ground manners. I'd never leave her tied for a long time, because there's no point. If I don't need her, she can go back to being a horse.

Oh wait, being a horse is wrong. They are supposed to be little dolls to do with what we wish. My bad.


So now it's cruel to sell a horse? I'd rather my horse be sold to a good home where he can do the kind of work that he enjoys and is capable of, and so I can advance my riding with a suitable horse, than make him repeat the same things over and over because he can't advance and neither can I.

Most people are not lucky enough to have miles of trails, and it's healthy for a horse to leave the property in a trailer and see a new location. Good for desensitization.

Our horses spend most of their time being horses, enjoy their work, and have all worked happily well into their 20s. They are not dolls, but they must behave as I tell them to, because I am the one providing food, shelter, a safe place to live, and hoof and vet care. All I require is polite manners in exchange for a life that consist mainly of eating and sleeping. Asking the horse to work for an hour 3-5 days a week doing something he enjoys is not cruel, and neither is asking him to stand quietly and EAT for a few hours.

nhwr
Jul. 9, 2006, 11:56 PM
Maybe my mistake is thinking she deserves to be treated as I would like to be treated. For what it's worth, he ha impeccable ground manners. I'd never leave her tied for a long time, because there's no point. If I don't need her, she can go back to being a horse.

Oh wait, being a horse is wrong. They are supposed to be little dolls to do with what we wish. My bad.
FWIW, it is a mistake to think that she "deserves" to be treated as you would like to be treated. Do you make her diet conform to human standards? Is it of great concern to you that she is illiterate? Aren't you worried that she doesn't have the right to vote? Sheesh, this is a really faulty line of reasoning.

Riding has nothing to do with "being a horse". Some horses actually like to be ridden and enjoy human interaction but it is never their idea :rolleyes: If you really think it is their "right" to live the life evolution set out for them, how do justify riding at all?

Trakehners2000
Jul. 10, 2006, 12:03 AM
How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

Seems rather... odd... to me.

My mare stands still when tied, but I don't make it last hours, because I don't have the desire to. Maybe since I don't live on the property she's at (an hour away, actually) and my time with her is limited, I find making her do "silly pet tricks" a waste of my horse time. She's well mannered while I groom, saddle, etc. If I planned on leaving her for "a few hours" I'd just take her back to her stall/pasture. Why make her stand around all tied up when I obviously have more important things to do?

MB PEARLS, Have you considered that horses stand a majority of their day??? Wouldn't the question posed be more fair if you asked others if they could sit for long periods? People sit on couches, in cars and classrooms, offices everyday, it is often part of their education and work duties. It is not 'fair' to ask a person if they could stand that long. Horses are made to stand when at rest, people sit when at rest....comparing if people could stand as long as horses can is not a good/fair comparison.

I doubt that you could exhist on the amount of sleep horses get either...or carry weight that they do, there are simply some comparisons here that are rediculous, you are talking about totally different species. I think my horse lays down for less than an hour a day, how can you compare that to a person who typically lays down 8-10 hours a day? And how often do people sit? A horse is not like you, and can stand WAY longer than you can, by nature...just like a horse can stand within an hour of being born, nurse on his own and run right away---people simply are not horses and thinking that you ask a question, simply there is no comparison between horses and people.

By the way, you may or may not have been referring to my stallion with the silly pet trick comment...though just in case it was Shadrach you were aiming at..you should know I have owned that stallion since before he was weaned, and he learned all his 'silly pet tricks' before he was under saddle, and he loves to drink gatorade and pepsi out of the bottle or can, not picky about which one....though this is probably a waste of time too? I think he is a cool horse that knows a lot :cool: And love his tricks!!:yes:

irishchick
Jul. 10, 2006, 12:05 AM
I don't see how it can be cruel to teach a horse to react in a safe way.

I'll go farther, and say I think it's cruel not to do what we can to teach our horses to react safely whenever possible.

There are probably all kinds of valid reasons not to cross-tie/straight-tie/leave tied/whatever. But, however we might choose to handle our horses, I think we have a responsibility to make sure that they aren't the ones who pay the price if someone else handles them differently than we do at some point. And the truth is that we just can't ensure that that will never happen--someone else who doesn't know that our horse can't cross-tie/straight-tie/be left alone while tied/whatever might handle our horse in an emergency or by mistake (or even on purpose), or we might find ourselves stuck somewhere in an emergency with no alternative.

Even if such occurrences are vanishingly unlikely in your particular situation, why the heck would you bet your horse's life on it?

By all means, act as you think safest and best from day to day. But, for your horse's sake, work with him to maximize the chances that if he were tied up and left alone,* he wouldn't get hurt.

That said, I haven't used these myself, but the Blocker tie rings (http://www.blockerranch.com/Pages/blockertie2.html) seem like a really good way to make tying safer (both teaching and in general).

*or any other practice reasonably common among horsepeople that one chooses to avoid for whatever reason.

Trakehners2000
Jul. 10, 2006, 12:11 AM
How many people would consent to being hauled to a remote location, tacked up and ridden through a dressage test? :lol: Why do you expect that because you enjoy something your horse does? Or conversely because you would find something problematic, your horse would? They may or may not.

Horses aren't people.

Somehow NHWR, when I read that I could see hords of people spooking at walmart because of bags blowing across the parking lot!!!!! :lol: :yes: :eek:

Trakehners2000
Jul. 10, 2006, 12:42 AM
God Bless her. Honestly this is true true true and maybe timely for someone here...

A friend of mine insisted on really never even training her horses to pick up their feet. Or to lead. Load. Ride. Bathe....etc... She would not use a farrier, as that would be too stressful for her horse to stand there and be expected to hold up their leg. HONESTLY....the length all of this went to is non ending and you probably wouldn't believe me if I told you....She had a heart of gold, this friend, and in her heart & mind, she only had good & the best of intentions....she loved her horses dearly...She valued them, cared for them, and sacrficed financially for them...


Sadly, yesterday at 7:30 pm, she lost her battle with cancer...She left behind a six year old Friesan/Saddlebred that is barely halter broke, doesn't load/tie/pick up her hooves. Ditto on the yearling Friesan/Saddlebred...and the seven year old arab....She also left behind a Saddlebred mare that was a broodmare before she got her, and did lead/stand tied and for farrier.... So, all of this, to point out to any of you that would think that YOU are fine with your horses' lack of knowledge, think again....our horses may out live us...or our personal situations may change. Don't you owe it to your horses to give them the best education possible, just in case you cannot be their one and only owner????

Teach your horses everything they need to know to be saleable...and get them registered/branded etc...it increases their value....if you own them for ever, fine, you'll have a well trained animal...and if not...your animal has a brighter future, because you invested in it's education.

Folks, we are not promised to live past this moment, if you really love you horses, prepare them for a possiblity of a life without you. [/COLOR]

shireluver
Jul. 10, 2006, 02:31 AM
So now it's cruel to sell a horse? I'd rather my horse be sold to a good home where he can do the kind of work that he enjoys and is capable of, and so I can advance my riding with a suitable horse, than make him repeat the same things over and over because he can't advance and neither can I.

Most people are not lucky enough to have miles of trails, and it's healthy for a horse to leave the property in a trailer and see a new location. Good for desensitization.

Our horses spend most of their time being horses, enjoy their work, and have all worked happily well into their 20s. They are not dolls, but they must behave as I tell them to, because I am the one providing food, shelter, a safe place to live, and hoof and vet care. All I require is polite manners in exchange for a life that consist mainly of eating and sleeping. Asking the horse to work for an hour 3-5 days a week doing something he enjoys is not cruel, and neither is asking him to stand quietly and EAT for a few hours.


I read your last paragraph, and realized, you were saying exactly what I was thinking:)

Leosolis
Jul. 10, 2006, 02:40 AM
I'm absolutely speachless.:no: ...I can't imagine owning a horse that can't be tied. It's in noway cruel..

Leosolis
Jul. 10, 2006, 02:44 AM
God Bless her. Honestly this is true true true and maybe timely for someone here...

A friend of mine insisted on really never even training her horses to pick up their feet. Or to lead. Load. Ride. Bathe....etc... She would not use a farrier, as that would be too stressful for her horse to stand there and be expected to hold up their leg. HONESTLY....the length all of this went to is non ending and you probably wouldn't believe me if I told you....She had a heart of gold, this friend, and in her heart & mind, she only had good & the best of intentions....she loved her horses dearly...She valued them, cared for them, and sacrficed financially for them...


Sadly, yesterday at 7:30 pm, she lost her battle with cancer...She left behind a six year old Friesan/Saddlebred that is barely halter broke, doesn't load/tie/pick up her hooves. Ditto on the yearling Friesan/Saddlebred...and the seven year old arab....She also left behind a Saddlebred mare that was a broodmare before she got her, and did lead/stand tied and for farrier.... So, all of this, to point out to any of you that would think that YOU are fine with your horses' lack of knowledge, think again....our horses may out live us...or our personal situations may change. Don't you owe it to your horses to give them the best education possible, just in case you cannot be their one and only owner????

Teach your horses everything they need to know to be saleable...and get them registered/branded etc...it increases their value....if you own them for ever, fine, you'll have a well trained animal...and if not...your animal has a brighter future, because you invested in it's education.

Folks, we are not promised to live past this moment, if you really love you horses, prepare them for a possiblity of a life without you. [/COLOR]

Very well said...Everyone should think about what she is saying. If your horse can't even manage to be tied how on earth is it going to feel if it ends up on a feedlot...because it has no manners & thinks its the Paris Hilton of horses;) Very good advice.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 10, 2006, 04:13 AM
I wont mention names but you have someone who killed two horses, at least one for sure thru her incompetent horsemanship.

Standing tied is a pretty basic requirement for any horse. Take part of the 70 grand you spent on two horses and get some lessons in horsemanship.

There are no Stupid horses, only stupid people.

Then we have someone who pipes up with a really assinine comment, "My horses are Dressage Horses they dont stand tied"???

Then Carrot lady number three pipes in with her "tying a horse is abuse" comment.

I can pretty much assure you that whoever said that and whoever agrees with that has NEVER trained a horse in their life.

Those are the "I bought vs I taught" and thats ok, not everyone has the time or skill to train horses.

We never called it the worry tree, we call it the patience tree, and YES WE STAY WHERE WE CAN SEE THE HORSE AT ALL TIMES, though often we choose spots where they cant see us.

But if its any consolation to you, your trainers love you. Your what is known in the horse world as JOB SECURITY. They can keep fixing your horse and you will keep screwing him up ensuring them future income.

Dressage is to prepare. Be it Military or Court tradition, either way it is to prepare. A Dressage Horse" should be able to do anything the trail horse can do and more. Dressage training is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end.

I had this argument with someone just recently. Though its not an argument if their part makes no sense. I said there were many great things a lot of "Dressage Trainers"-I use the term very generally-not an attack against Dressage in any way. I love Dressage. I hate Carrot ladies, and I know many great trainers that train horses for Dessage-Back to my point...I told her there were many great methods Dressage people could learn from the Cowboys-Disclalimer. I dont refer to rough training or breaking the horses spirit as Cowboy training. As well as most Cowboys could do well in learning about Dressage.

A Dressage horse is one that is prepared for battle or any work set before it.

NOW BEFORE YOU JUMP DOWN MY THROAT, ask yourself this question if I put 10 "Trail Horse Names in one hat" and 10 "Dressage" horse names in another hat and your life depending on you making it somewhere and back and you had no idea what you would encounter would you choose a name out of the "Dressage" hat or the "trail horse" hat.

I have a mare I had given to me, actually I was paid to take her. She was considered dangerous and scheduled to be put down. Sweet enough horse that would sppok violently at her own shadow. Owner "loved" the horse and thought sending her to me might keep this mare alive, as she was scheduled to be put to sleep. A couple of weeks ago I rode her over the creek and thru the woods, down the road, thru the drive thru and then did a nice piaffe while waiting on the light to turn green then an acceptable tranistion into passage as we crossed.

Warmblood, Saddlebreds. Arabs. Lusitano. Andalusian, QH, Paint. Friesian Crosses you name it. I usually get the "nutty" ones and they are always a learning experience. I get the ones no one else wants to mess with, and I figure the problem horses are the ones that make you have those days where you get closer to being a horseman or trainer.

I do not consider myself a trainer. Simply a horse lover who sincerely wants to learn about horses.

First thing to learn about horses.

Horses are horses, every one an individual and unique, but still a horse. Trail horse, dressage horse, roping horse, hunter. Your horse has no clue what his title is, he is a horse.

Unless they belong to to a Carrot lady, in which case they enter their barn with a I am a dressage horse name tag so the other horses recognize why they are so unsocialized.

Second thing to learn about horses is they are not people. You must take your horse on horse terms. He will NEVER take you on Human terms.

The third thing to learn about horses is there is no such thing as finished training or trained horse. Everytime you get on or around a horse you are either training or untraining them. PERIOD!

On a final note I will leave you with this question. Some of you are already ready to flame me for speaking what most of you know is probably closer to reality than the "Well I ride dressage so my horses dont have to have BASIC manners and training".

Now I am not advocating beating a kid or a horse in any way.

Two parents.

One who harshly reprimands their child for any infraction no matter how insignificant.

The other never reprimands their child no matter how sever the infraction.

Which parent loves theri kid more?

kkj
Jul. 10, 2006, 07:15 AM
PoliticallyIncorrect, while I agree with most of what you are saying, that was totally uncool to accuse someone of killing a horse in a tying accident. Also uncool to reference the $ she paid for the horse and say to get horsemanship lessons.

I do not know the circumstances of the accident(s) but even with no fault or negligence on her part a horse can get killed in a tying accident. Rare though it is, this has happened to great cowboys and people well schooled in horsemanship too. There is always some degree of danger in tying a horse no matter how well trained the horse is and something can go wrong. I do a lot of ground work and training with my horses. I tie my horses. I expect them to behave, but I am cognizant that something still could happen. If something that horrible had happened to me, I might be reluctant to tie a horse again myself. I can't imagine how horrible that must have been. It would be very traumatic and I am sure you would feel a lot of guilt even if it wasn't your fault.

And I cannot imagine deliberately trying to hurt someone who obviously loves her horses. What do you think you will accomplish by that?

sm
Jul. 10, 2006, 07:37 AM
shireluver, post 45: "Yes, my horses are left unattended. Now, I don't leave the property with them tied, but I will go do other things on the property while they are tied. Checking on them, if even from a distance every once in a awhile.

I also want to clarify, they usually are only tied for normal everyday things like grooming, saddling, bathing, etc., but if they pull back or act stupid while standing there, they may have to stay there a little longer. Kind of like standing in the corner."

To me, it sounds like your horse isn't truly left unattended, not if you're checking on them. Certianly not like the unattended example in post 6.

When I'm at a show I never leave a horse tied, which is not to say they are always in my sight. They might be on one side of the trailer tied and I am elsewhere on another side. However, I never leave them there unattended especially since I don't own or use breakaway halters. In a worse case, I'd ask a neighboring trailer to keep an eye out if I need to take off.

A BIG "YES" TO KKJ: "...There is always some degree of danger in tying a horse no matter how well trained the horse is and something can go wrong. I do a lot of ground work and training with my horses. I tie my horses. I expect them to behave, but I am cognizant that something still could happen. "

egontoast
Jul. 10, 2006, 08:02 AM
Not wanting to get into the slugfest, but just wanting to point out that there is more than one way to teach a horse to tie. If someone does not use your own personal favourite method, it does not necessarilly mean that she/he is an idiot. We have used Jennie Loriston Clarke's method on the last 2 we taught. They both tie and trailer well. Does she tie them to a tree for 4 hours. No. Not that there has to be anything wrong with that. There's more than one way to do it.

Also, I doubt anyone has said that dressage horses don't need to tie. If they did, they speak only for themselves so please do not generalize even though it undoubtedly pleases those who looove to scorn 'dressage horses' . Oh yes, we know already. Your trail horse is 'better ' than any dressage horse. UhHuh. Where does that get us. My horse is better than your horse.

Trakehners2000
Jul. 10, 2006, 09:12 AM
Dressage is to prepare. Be it Military or Court tradition, either way it is to prepare. A Dressage Horse" should be able to do anything the trail horse can do and more. Dressage training is not an end in itself. It is a means to an end.


Second thing to learn about horses is they are not people. You must take your horse on horse terms. He will NEVER take you on Human terms.

When it comes to the point of a dressage being a means to an end...I am sooo glad to hear another LIVING person thinks that too.... :yes: WHEW....:sadsmile: What a relief.... glad to hear....

shireluver
Jul. 10, 2006, 02:26 PM
I guess your right, I don't necessarily leave my horse unattended, but neither do I stand there with them or stare at them the whole time :)

I have even been known to tie my horse to the trailer, and walk away to use the restroom, get something to eat, or even chit-chat. Shhh! Don't tell anyone ;)

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 10, 2006, 03:08 PM
KKJ- I AM Not out to hurt anyone. Simply open her eyes.

Horses are a responsibility and it is our job to teach them to behave in a safe and responsible way, then trust them to be safe and responsible.

Too often the carrot ladies want to create a perfect environment.


Typical comment out of a Carrot Ladies mouth “Oh don’t do this and can you turn the lights down a bit, open that gate just a bit too and move that car over there please….oh and can you please not wear red shirts to the barn anymore…. I have to give my horse a bath and he doesn’t like those things….

After being told to train her horse she replies with….

“Oh didn’t you see my saddle? I am a dressage rider and this is a Dressage Horse.”

Stop watching Disney Movies and get a grip on Reality !

You will never, I REPEAT NEVER find a Grand Prix trainer ever say this. Its always the wannabe riders who either bought their level or are still riding 2-3rd level after 25 years go figure…..

You can not create a perfect environment. As soon as you think you have a dog barks, a car goes by and then you have a problem, or in her case two dead horses.

My Dressage horse is my trail horse is my trail horse is my Dressage Horse.

Also the reference to the money she spent was pertinent in this case.

See a lot of people dont have the money for lessons, they do the best they can and sacrifice a lot to be able to enjoy the rewards of owning a horse.

....But if you can spend 70 grand on two horses that are killed, and then go buy another, surely you can spend a little on learning about horses.

So I stand by my statements even if they are Politically Incorrect.

Dave Walker
Jul. 10, 2006, 04:08 PM
Don't any of you anti-tyers ever do any kind of job with your horse? If so, what do you do with it when you get off? Like at a cattle branding which is out in the middle of nowhere. When it is you turn to work on the ground you had better be able to tie your horse since nobody is going to watch it for you. What happens when you camp out overnight in the wild? If you can't use a picket line or tie to a tree or (horror of horrors) hobble your horse you might be in for a bit of a walk come morning.

Horses are perfectly capable of standing in basically one place for extended periods of time. They do it all the time in the pasture. And, even when tied, they have some mobility since they can move back and forth. In a proper picket line then can even lay down. Hardly horse abuse.

I use a "worry" or "patience" pole on all our young horses. They can pivot around the pole as much as they want but they eventually learn the patience to stand. And I don't stand there watching them the whole time either. I go about my business and check from time to time. They are tied quite short so there is no danger of them getting a foot over the rope or anything like that. Gradually, I increase the duration until they can stand half the day quietly.

Cross-ties are another beast entirely in my mind. They do restrict the horse's motion much more than tying with a single rope and are much more likely to make the horse claustrophobic.

I also do not understand the purpose of cross-ties. Why can't you groom and tack up tied with a single rope? Your horse won't stand still? Maybe it's time for some tying lessons?

Dave

philosoraptor
Jul. 10, 2006, 04:15 PM
I think the difference is that your horses have already been taught what to. I'm sure you've already taught them to give to pressure and to not rear if they feel halter pressure.

Some people "train" by just taking a horse, putting the heaviest halter on him they can find, and tying him to a tree or wall for hours (or even days!). They just leave him and he'll "figure it out". In reality these horses end up hurting themselves. If they're tied short enough that they can't get a leg around the rope, they're also not able to totally lower their head: no water or grazing at all.

I object to be because it's a training shortcut. It's not that hard to teach a horse these lessons without abandoning them tied. People who do it are relying on the rope to "teach him". It would be like teaching a young horse to like riding in a trailer by chasing him down a chute, slamming the doors shut, and leaving him in the dark trailer all day. Sure it gets the job done but does it teach the right associations?

kkj
Jul. 10, 2006, 04:49 PM
Politically Incorrect, what is your alt ego? You are too bitter to be new to this bb stuff. Calling people carrot ladies and ripping them for having $ to buy a nice horse is not cool.

I am pretty much a can do kind of girl. Pretty much a hands horse person. Shut up and rider don't wimp out or complainer, but I can't imagine this bitterness at what you call Carrot ladies.

Cowboys and hands on types have "killed" horses too you know. Do you think there are no excellent horse people who have "killed" a horse? Horses are inherently dangerous and not the smartest of animals. Sometimes accidents happen even to real horsepeople. Plenty of cowboys have hung a horse. Horses get killed on hot walkers or in trailer accidents.

I think if you choose to own horses, you are responsible for becoming a horseperson too. I think you need to learn to be safe and have the balls to act safely. However, I cannot just sit here and let you attack someone for an accident that very well may have been in no way her fault. Even if it was a little bit her fault, how cruel to attack someone for that. I guess the politically incorrect love to pour salt in wounds.

I hope nothing bad ever happens to you (or to me for that matter) but if it does (God Forbid) I hope people don't treat you as unfairly afterwards.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jul. 10, 2006, 05:11 PM
In my opinion, this is not a punishment for which the horse needs to make a connection to understand. Think of it like this: If your horse tossed his head histerically well you were riding him, you would do your best to correct the behavior as it happened (just as you would if he misbehaved while tied). But maybe the next day you would ride him with a martingale to prevent him from tossing his head. Does he connect the martingale to the head tossing of yesterday? Probably not, because it is not meant to be a punishment for yesterday, it is meant to be a seperate training experience.
NO. If my horse tossed his head hysterically (I assume that's what you meant) I would first ascertain whether there was a physical issue - because that is not normal, and sudden onset constant head tossing indicates either a physical issue or a long standing behavioral issue. A martingale cures neither. Especially if it is a consequence of a weak back or poor fitting saddle or an oncoming abcess.
To give you the better analogy, when my horse is on his forehand, I try to make quick, subtle adjustments (like half halts) to ask him to rebalance, followed immediately by a relaxation of requests as a reward. And I don't expect that behavior to change immediately, for two reasons: (1) the strength and musculature you need for self carriage doesn't come overnight and (2) how fast can YOU break a long standing habit just like that?



If your horse misbehaves while tied, it is an indication that he has not learned to be tied well enough, just as misbehavior under saddle means that he needs more training there. Tying him longer is not a PUNISHMENT for his earlier behavior. It is simply additional and seperate training to help the earlier behavior disappear. So, no connection needs to be made. Get it?

NO. I generally tack up with my horse in cross ties, but sometimes with a single tie. If he misbehaves, the question is: what's the cause? One day a month ago my horse kept tossing his head in the cross ties - very unusual for him. I finally discovered a deer tick in his ear. He was telling me the only way he knew how. If he gets impatient, however, and paws or stamps a foot, that isn't acceptable, but a simple shake of the lead rope with a no gets the message across quite well. He asks if he can leave, I say no, end of discussion.


Some of you seem to think tying is "cruel". This I don't understand. I can see how it has potential to be cruel, but so does a bit, so do spurs, so does a riding crop... so does just about every training method used. However, tying is not cruel when done properly.

Just a gentle FYI. The bit, the spur, the dressage whip are aids. Yes, they have the potential to be improperly used. but looking atyour next paragraph...there's simply no way you can convince me what you describe isn't cruel.


For instance: After I ride, I cool my horse out, loosen his girth, and offer him a drink. Then, I tie him to the wall in our indoor arena for 1-2 hours while I clean stalls, wash buckets, eat dinner, whatever. I never leave the property. He is tied high so he can't get his leg over the rope, but loose enough so that he can lower his head to a comfortable level. He can move around a bit if he wants to, he is standing in the shaded, comfortable arena in soft footing, and when I come get him after a few hours, he is happily dozing. He has NEVER balked going into the arena in anticipation of being tied. He is happy to stand quietly after a long workout, and he learns to stand quietly no matter what. I don't do it every day, but maybe three times a week. What in the world is cruel about this? I have noticed that the horses that I tie for a few hours each week are much more patient and better mannered horses even on days when they haven't been tied. They don't just "seem" quieter because they have "given up". They learn to be patient. Yes, there is a wrong way to tie a horse. But lets also aknowledge that there is a correct and in my opinion nessecary way to use tying as a training tool.
What is the point of doing this? I simply can't come up with any reason that anyone would want to do this, and it defies all safety rules.

My horse stands quietly UNTIED for the farrier. For however long it takes, usually 2 hours. He will stand quietly for an hour during grooming and tacking up. He will stand while I am braiding his mane. He will stand by the trailer chomping hay when at a schooling show. Would I leave him that way unattended? NEVER. And would I just leave him tied for the hell of it as a supposed training tool? What for? My horse does what I ask without subjecting him to what i consider an unsafe and cruel practice.

When we're done, he can go back out in the pasture, move around as he sees fit, visit with buddies, eat grass. That's a reward for him. Standing tied in an aisle for a few hours with nothingt o do - nothing to eat or drink - I simply am at a loss to describe how utterly stupid I think that is.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jul. 10, 2006, 05:17 PM
And now standing tied causes arthritis? Give me a break.

My horse isn't tied at shows but he stands in one spot in his stall and sleeps for hours. What's the difference if he were tied?

No. Standing tied does not cause arthritis. However, the more common areas of degenerative osteoarthritis e.g., hock, benefit from movement. This is why turnout is better for a horse than being kept in a stall.

jadain
Jul. 10, 2006, 05:23 PM
You know, I grew up in a country where dressage is the norm (along with jumping and hunting) and NH wasn't well known, if at all.

I *still* think every horse should have impeccable ground manners, no matter what they do. As has been pointed out, there are plenty of times when you go to a 1-day schooling show that has no stalls. In addition, the point made about selling the horse and it not having any skills is very valid. YOU may not think it's important, but I'll bet you money you'll get a good quantity that do.

As for the comment about the horse being a *dressage* horse and therefore not being able to be tied for any prolonged period of time, all I can say is; Please. What does one have to do with the other?

Finally, I have a QH but he's destined to become a pretty little dressage pony. You better believe he can do everything and has been put through everything in decrease any spook factor. Strollers? Bring 'em on! Preferably bright yellow just to add to the excitement.

Just my thoughts.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 10, 2006, 05:26 PM
New to this?? lol....Either reply using logic and the laws of debate or put a cork in it...


Never ripped for having the money to buy a cool horse. ripped her for being too cheap to get lessons in handling and horsemanship..


Bitter? Lets see this know it all person who personally had two horse killed doing something that is a basic requirement for any horse know slams people who tie and feels qualified to give advice to others....

I would say she is the bitter one??

clanter
Jul. 10, 2006, 06:20 PM
Well while we are at it...do you train your horse to ground tie? We do and it is invaluable... the horses are taught to stand and not move if placed at a spot or if the rider has is off for any reason.

Trakehners2000
Jul. 10, 2006, 06:40 PM
Well while we are at it...do you train your horse to ground tie? We do and it is invaluable... the horses are taught to stand and not move if placed at a spot or if the rider has is off for any reason.
Could you explain how you teach ground tying?:yes:

clanter
Jul. 10, 2006, 06:56 PM
Ground tying means to stand without moving a single foot, with their head up.

sunridge1
Jul. 10, 2006, 06:57 PM
I'll just throw another breed into the mix. I ride a former show ASB nearly 17H.
He had seven months of SS training. I go horse camping with him now. He will stand tied to a trailer, a post, high line etc. I do prefer a portable corral but sometimes it's not an option. Now if I put on 20 miles a day, this horse is grateful to just stand with hay and water. I don't believe poor Echo thinks he's being abused. Maybe on that last 5 miles, but not standing tied with food and water.:yes:

clanter
Jul. 10, 2006, 07:07 PM
Ground tying means for the horse to stand by itself without moving a single foot, with their head up.

This comes in very handy when Laddie knocks the top rail off the jump...you can dismount...replace the rail...to a higher height to make the slug work a little more... Laddie should stand not move or wonder back to the barn.

This also is very help if for some reason you and he fall... he gets up and does not move...believe me it saved my daughter life when her horse fell with her hanging her right foot in the strup. Her horse regained it footing and stood still.

We have taught ground tying as a requirement for some of the National Trail Classes... often (well you used in the old days) you are required to dismount and walk off and leave good Laddie standing there amd loose points if he moves

kkj
Jul. 10, 2006, 09:46 PM
PoliticallyIncorrect what I meant is what other names do you use on this bb. When I put you on my ignore list I want to be sure to get all of you.

Yes you totally come across as bitter. Talking about money and carrot ladies and buying levels etc etc. It sounds bitter to me.

The person in question comes across as anything but cheap. I assert she will do anything for her horse's welfare and takes the horse ownership/rider/horseperson thing very seriously. While I may not agree with her tying beliefs, I cannot stand by and let you attack her so unfairly.

Logic-you ought to try that yourself. Equating people spending 25 years and not getting out of 3rd level with a poor level of horsemanship is absurb. You can be a fabulous horseperson and not ride above 1st level. A rider and a horseperson are not the same thing. My mother for example is an excellent horseperson with 55 plus years experience. Can diagnose stuff better than most vets. Has trained 100s of foals to lead and tie, can get any horse to load willingly in a trailer etc etc but is not a great rider.

If your comments were not meant to hurt this woman or if you are not ashamed of how you feel, why would you sign on under a new name?

I guess you are a bitter coward. I hope at least your horses respect you.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 10, 2006, 11:05 PM
Oh thats easy just ignore anyone with any common sense and you should be good to go.

Though I do agree with being a horseperson and a rider not always being one and the same.

The person I "attacked" parades around here like she knows something and always has an opinion. I simply gave her mine.

Can you argue with any of what I said as not true?

A jury would find her guilty I am sure.

No alter egos here. Just me....Waiting for UDBB to go back up..

Nice to meet ya..

Lambie Boat
Jul. 10, 2006, 11:25 PM
clanter, please tell me how you taught Laddie to ground tie? I like that idea the best, but haven't figured out how to train it. Hope your daughter recovered from the scary fall/being hung up is no fun whatsoever.

ideayoda
Jul. 10, 2006, 11:27 PM
What's interesting is that many horses at traditional riding schools like von N were tied in a standing stalls (they can still lay down), and worked for a living as well.

hb
Jul. 11, 2006, 01:15 AM
PoliticallyIncorrect, while I agree with most of what you are saying, that was totally uncool to accuse someone of killing a horse in a tying accident. Also uncool to reference the $ she paid for the horse and say to get horsemanship lessons.

The person whose lost two horses mentioned the price tag, so why is it "uncool" to reference that? She brought it up when relaying the story, I think the quote was "out $70,000". That poster thought it was a key point of her story, so if someone is discussing her story, then why not include that point in the discussion.

I don't know you, I don't know Politically Incorrect, I don't know the OP or the person who lost two horses because they couldn't stand quietly tied. But from where I'm sitting Politically Incorrect does not come across as bitter or mean or trying to hurt anyone. To me, she/he just sounds annoyed and, like the name says, not wanting to be all politically correct about it.

And notice that from my point of view, the problem with the horses wasn't that tying is abusive, but that they couldn't stand quietly. Whether it was from lack of training or an inappropriate environment or whatever, I really find the comments like "my horse is an athlete and shouldn't be tied" to be very very annoying.

As far as the carrot ladies and people who buy up a level, you have to admit, these people DO exist. There are people who buy fancy expensive horses they cannot handle just so they can say they ride X level, while it's actually their trainer doing all the riding. And there are people who hardly ride but come out and do hours of in-hand work with their horses, and yet the horses have no ground manners and are borderline dangerous to work with, as in rearing and striking at the barn help who do turn out and stalls.

There are horsemen, there are riders and there are posers in every discipline. The carrot ladies and level buyers are the posers of the dressage world (some level buyers could be considered "riders" rather than posers, if they actually ride their own horse. Not saying that any particular poster on this board is one or the other or neither. Just that these people do exist and someone commenting on them does not mean that person is bitter or mean or evil.

I don't know why I'm posting here, this is the stupidest thread I've read in ages, and I'm just making it one post longer. It really seems the board is getting nuttier every day.

Sabine
Jul. 11, 2006, 01:37 AM
KKJ- I AM Not out to hurt anyone. Simply open her eyes.

Horses are a responsibility and it is our job to teach them to behave in a safe and responsible way, then trust them to be safe and responsible.

Too often the carrot ladies want to create a perfect environment.


Typical comment out of a Carrot Ladies mouth “Oh don’t do this and can you turn the lights down a bit, open that gate just a bit too and move that car over there please….oh and can you please not wear red shirts to the barn anymore…. I have to give my horse a bath and he doesn’t like those things….

After being told to train her horse she replies with….

“Oh didn’t you see my saddle? I am a dressage rider and this is a Dressage Horse.”

Stop watching Disney Movies and get a grip on Reality !

You will never, I REPEAT NEVER find a Grand Prix trainer ever say this. Its always the wannabe riders who either bought their level or are still riding 2-3rd level after 25 years go figure…..

You can not create a perfect environment. As soon as you think you have a dog barks, a car goes by and then you have a problem, or in her case two dead horses.

My Dressage horse is my trail horse is my trail horse is my Dressage Horse.

Also the reference to the money she spent was pertinent in this case.

See a lot of people dont have the money for lessons, they do the best they can and sacrifice a lot to be able to enjoy the rewards of owning a horse.

....But if you can spend 70 grand on two horses that are killed, and then go buy another, surely you can spend a little on learning about horses.

So I stand by my statements even if they are Politically Incorrect.

WOW- here is sure one foul apple that is taking advantage of the UDBB being down and piping his mediocre advice.....if you know me PI- which is easy to do- step up to the plate- otherwise shut up...I don't need to deal with another cowboy/trail expert that thinks they know dressage- there are plenty around here and I am quite familiar with the type... wait for your beloved Suzy to be back to life (I hear it's thursday) and enlighten the all knowing UDBB folks with your undoubtedly masterful horsemanship...bless ya and go in peace...

Otherwise- tell us more about your great knowledge- especially if you live in some desolate quiet place - where it's easy to tie a horse all day- because other than an occasional fly- there is nothing to buzz around...LOL!
I regret having mentioned my plight- because I should have known that some of YOUR kind would be seeing this as a chance to bask in my misfortune...well..thank you for your offer- I am not a carrot lady- I don't especially appreciate your advice- and I guess- in summary- you showed your "best and largest " part to all of us...now we know...
and off you go!

Good Riddance...

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 11, 2006, 01:50 AM
Boy if your reply didnt just make my case I dont know what will.

Did you not read my post? I ride my Horses right thru Downtown, down the highway and thru the drive thru for food.

OH you will love this. There are times when we tie off to a tree branch and go inside to eat too! To be fair to you I do sit by the window to keep an eye on them especially if the tree is near the drive thru. Not because my horses are idiots, but because people are.

You want to see my ponies??

Your probably gonna run for cover here, but lets have a little contest. You post pictures of your ponies and I will post pics of mine. Then lets see who's horses are more trusting, better trained and for that matter better dressage horses...

Let everyone else vote...?


What do ya say? Do you have the courage of your convictions or are you just another carrot lady?

The only thing foul here is someone giving advice who doesnt know anything themselves.

Sabine
Jul. 11, 2006, 01:52 AM
you can't post pictures on COTH! too bad for you AND me...now go back to your cowboy town and ride thru the drive by at McDonalds...LOL!

best wishes...you 've pulled my chain long enough- I know and you know..LOL!

Equilibrium
Jul. 11, 2006, 01:55 AM
I lurk on the Dressage board because quite frankly you people are scary. My dressage skills are crap, but I like learning all I can because it does help my horse.

As far as tying goes. I'm not a big fan of tying for long periods of time. That is a personal choice. I'd much rather let a horse I'm breaking have time outs in a pen, but then I am fortunate to have one. We get some right head cases that haven't been touched for the first 3 or 4 years. Possibly they might have had their feet done once or twice and the same with worming. If we were to tie one of these guys straight off the bat, I don't think it would be pretty. I do however tie all my youngsters that have our trust to the back of the stables while being brushed. But that's it. I have never had any problems with horses going long distances in a trailer either. Like on the ferry across the Irish Sea to England for a sale.

Diffrent disciplines need diffrent things. Endurance, trail riding, camping overnight, working cattle, they need horses that will tie for long peirods and that's great. I don't see where my youngsters will need that so I don't teach it just in case. I just disagree a bit with horses tied all day with no water or possibly out of the hot sun. And really they can't get annoying flys very well either and I think that's where it borders on cruel for me.

And of course their are always going to be people that can afford horses which probably don't suit, but that's life. No point in crying about them because they will always exist. I always try to be happy with what I have and God knows he will never be anyone's perfect horse, but then I never had my own horses until I was 32 so to me my guy is perfect. Now if we could just get a nice shoulder in I'd be happy.
Terri

etk
Jul. 11, 2006, 02:02 AM
I think much of this tying issue stems from how a young horse was initially trained. If you've bought a horse that was never trained to tie well or deal with unusual stimuli while tied, you may well have your work cut out for you - and I can sympathize with those that don't want to endanger their horse or loose their investment by putting their horses in a situation where they may hurt themselves or panic. However, I am a big fan of horses that tie to trailers, cross ties, grooming stalls, hot walkers, wash racks and those that ground tie. It's what I expect, makes life a whole lot easier, and is what I personally strive for.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 11, 2006, 02:10 AM
Sabine-

We can put our pics on Putfile.com

I knew you would run for cover...

By the way the city I live in has a population of over 1 million.

Now either put up or shut up.

Equilibrium-I didnt get mine till I was 25. Though I have loved horses my entire life. As far as shoulder in what helped me was Racinet's explanation of how to accomplish a proper shoulder in. Get away fromt he wall or border. Ride a large circle, to make the bend part easy, then ask for a few or one step laterally to the outside while keeping the bend. Then just add more steps.

Remember what the masters wrote...a horse doesnt learn shoulder in or any movement for that matter. He learns to listen to your aids, and move away from pressure. Never control the horse, simply control the direction and amount of energy being expended. Your horse will go thru the open door. All you have to do is open it, and explain to him you want him to go thru it..


Dressage is the ultimate discipline, because...the horse should be able to do everything the other disciplines can do and more.

This is why Dressage training helps any horse in any discipline.


I just disagree a bit with horses tied all day with no water or possibly out of the hot sun.

I disagree with that as well.

goeslikestink
Jul. 11, 2006, 06:03 AM
tie ing to a tree -- soem still do it not the done thing for me as no escape route especially in not tied to a bit of baling tiwne round the tree--
have seen horses long ago treated like this they pull and turn and pull then break there necks-- so i personally dont --

tie ing a horse to teach it manner correctly is to give to the horse /pony if it doesnt tie then teach it to-- i always use a lunge line threaded thorugh the tie up bit or whatever-- and groom the horse as he moves i move-- graudually giving him the confidence of nothing to be afriad off--

then once realsie that he doesnt have to pull back in fear tie hi to where ever i like -- but always baling twine - attached to the ring or hitching rail or ring in horse box both inside or out -- i have never just attached a horse to ring itslef as no escape route and horse can freighten itself by trying or more likely injure or died from it...


once leart they cant pull back and ite nicely then they go out in said horse box with ababysitter noramlly raspberry as shes calm and quiet and like to travel peciefully she does inside the trialer what icant --if they muck about she will nip as shes an alpha pony --- and since i cant travel in back i relay on her to do her job-- and she does so easily -- i normally go up indoor school as short trip al of 10mins work the horse in the arena then come back i do a couple times once hes happy then i do it on his own -- once happy then i go further a filed and start shows again norally with baabysitter to gain conifdence and if ih ave to tie up to triler wont panic cuase she doesnt-- as horses will copy -- in time i then take said horse a lone to things making sure hes comfy and has plenty to eat-- touch wood i have yet to have a bad horse from tied to atrailer or otherwise -- pateince is a virtue and take each small step to gain conifdence for the horse---

goeslikestink
Jul. 11, 2006, 06:17 AM
to teach a horse to tie is basic manners from that you can lead and do in hand stuff as you in control -- if not done then thats lack of edcucation by who taught said horse

kkj
Jul. 11, 2006, 08:06 AM
PoliticallyIncorrect you sound like the unsafe one- sort of like a combination of Urban Cowboy and the Man From Snowy River. How safe can it be to tie your horse to a tree at Burger King in a city of 1 mil? Why do you ride your horse through the city and to drive thrus? Do you like the attention or not own a car? Trailrides cool, but riding all over a slippery pavement jungle full of people who are not horse savy, bad drivers etc seems a little silly to me.

I guess if you didn't get a horse until you were 25, maybe you feel you missed out on your childhood with horses. When I was a little kid, we used to take off on our ponies and ride to 7-11 or A&W. These were old mellow ponies and we were stupid kids. I would never do that as a wise adult with a fancy dressage horse.

What kind of horse do you have? I think all horses can learn to tie and behave themselves, but there is some truth to certain breeds being more sensitive and likely to hurt themselves in certain situations. I have been riding since before I could walk and I know there is a big difference between the average QH and the average warmblood suitable for FEI. There is some truth in Sabine's assertion that a high level dressage horse is a different beast. I make this assertion because we have raised both QHs and warmbloods. As youngsters the warmbloods are much more likely to injure themselves doing something stupid like trying to jump the fence. They are hotter animals and harder to train to tie, trailer etc. It can of course be done and done well, but it is not as easy or as safe to work with. They are super alert and responsive and I think the chance of getting them bombproof to the degree that you can safely tie them to a tree in a fastfood parking lot in a major city is unlikely. I have ridden a few QHs that I might (if I had too much free time) ride down to the drive through, but I would not do that on my big animated forward thinking, super responsive hot 17 hand Dutch mare. I would tie her at a show (attended) or in the barn or even on a trail but not in to a tree in a parking lot full of cars and the hazards of the city.

If you really do this stuff, I hope you have a good helmet and good luck not to kill yourself or someone else. If something bad were to happen, I would find you quite culpable indeed.

goeslikestink
Jul. 11, 2006, 08:48 AM
i have a warmblood and a tb and sstandred bred and warmblood x
and then welshys a b c d and a connie -- all tie up to a trialer at a show with no avail all behave -- someitme iam on my own i have to go to secs tent to get me no or go to loo or get something to eat or take one horse in then the ohter -- as long as they safe and safely tied i have never had a problem ever

CanadianGolden
Jul. 11, 2006, 08:54 AM
PoliticallyIncorrect you sound like the unsafe one- sort of like a combination of Urban Cowboy and the Man From Snowy River. How safe can it be to tie your horse to a tree at Burger King in a city of 1 mil? Why do you ride your horse through the city and to drive thrus? Do you like the attention or not own a car? Trailrides cool, but riding all over a slippery pavement jungle full of people who are not horse savy, bad drivers etc seems a little silly to me.

I guess if you didn't get a horse until you were 25, maybe you feel you missed out on your childhood with horses. When I was a little kid, we used to take off on our ponies and ride to 7-11 or A&W. These were old mellow ponies and we were stupid kids. I would never do that as a wise adult with a fancy dressage horse.

What kind of horse do you have? I think all horses can learn to tie and behave themselves, but there is some truth to certain breeds being more sensitive and likely to hurt themselves in certain situations. I have been riding since before I could walk and I know there is a big difference between the average QH and the average warmblood suitable for FEI. There is some truth in Sabine's assertion that a high level dressage horse is a different beast. I make this assertion because we have raised both QHs and warmbloods. As youngsters the warmbloods are much more likely to injure themselves doing something stupid like trying to jump the fence. They are hotter animals and harder to train to tie, trailer etc. It can of course be done and done well, but it is not as easy or as safe to work with. They are super alert and responsive and I think the chance of getting them bombproof to the degree that you can safely tie them to a tree in a fastfood parking lot in a major city is unlikely. I have ridden a few QHs that I might (if I had too much free time) ride down to the drive through, but I would not do that on my big animated forward thinking, super responsive hot 17 hand Dutch mare. I would tie her at a show (attended) or in the barn or even on a trail but not in to a tree in a parking lot full of cars and the hazards of the city.

If you really do this stuff, I hope you have a good helmet and good luck not to kill yourself or someone else. If something bad were to happen, I would find you quite culpable indeed.

And WHY is a pony any different than a dressage horse? I'd trust my dressage horse (GP, thank you, so don't try to tell me he's not fancy) much farther than I'd trust the little hunter pony I used to ride. I'm sure she's careful riding on pavement. Just because your horse isn't trained enough to handle traffic doesn't mean hers isn't.

bjrudq
Jul. 11, 2006, 09:07 AM
i'd still like clanter or someone to explain how to ground tie. my horses stand still for grooming and tacking, i'd love to instill that for other circumstances as well but i've never read a description of how to do it.

MyReality
Jul. 11, 2006, 09:55 AM
Again, I have no idea what you guys are arguing about.

Some horses due to the nature of their work, need to be tied for a long time. Cattle work, carriage work all require the horses to stand quietly. It is a necessity. Against whatever you believe in, the horses must be taught to do so.

I know next to no one in dressage that will tie their horses for extended periods of time. Why? it is not necessary. We don't go to shows that last for hours and hours... we ship in or ship out. Or we stable the night before.

And there is another very practical reason for not tieing the horse for long periods of time... for dressage horses. Dressage requires the horse to be supple... a horse before going to do the 5 minue test, needs to be totally soft and warmed up, and tying the horse for any extended period of time is not going to make a supple horse, especially if he is not standing in rubber matts or shavings but on hard ground.

People who tie their horses up for hours for no reason are just idiots. All horses get used to anything. I know a certain rocky mountain clinician, tie the horse's head to his tail... and the horse gets used to it too. Well what does that tell ya? Nothing. So what your horse could stand tied for hours? Too bad there isn't a competition for it.

People who don't have their horses practice tying, but their jobs require tying are also idiots. To do the job, the horses must be conditioned... it is unfair and unsafe otherwise. It's not just teaching the horse to stand still, but often standing still besides a mare or a horse he doesn't know... very important for range work, or police unit and other jobs... where there is lots of waiting, all readied to be called for action.

siegi b.
Jul. 11, 2006, 10:55 AM
My Reality - thank you for your words of reason. I don't know why certain posters here think that all horses are or need to be the same. And to categorize that GP horses should be able to stand tied all day because yours does is completely meaningless. There are GP horses and then there are GP horses that are competitive and win.

Politically Incorrect comes across as a bitter, unhappy person and reminds me very much of 3Sisters or Monica of TOB. Some people just can't stand it when somebody else has more than they do, and God forbid, can spend thousands on a good horse. That's where the hatred starts right away with the likes of PI.

And it's always just a few bad apples that spoil it for everybody else. At least over here PI doesn't have the backing of Mark or else we'd all be banned by now. :-)

Let's hope that Suzy comes back to health soon and PI crawls back to her UDDB hole.

kkj
Jul. 11, 2006, 12:09 PM
Thanks Siegi,

CanadianGolden and PI,

When I was young and dumb and had no appreciation of the danger of things, I used to ride my pony all over town. We used to race bareback and helmetless on the high school track. I used to ride up and down slippery narrow roads. As a teenager, I used to ride my Dutch gelding to the highschool football games and swim meets. I would do tempi changes and even jump the hurdles on the track. I was a silly teenage girl who liked the attention. I would do I do not do that now because I have some sense.

My horse is very well trained for a 4 year old. She is highly bred with grand prix horses on both sides. She is super sensitive and responsive. I could ride her in traffic. She would go forward and is not spooky. However, I don't think it is safe. I might do it on some older QH or some police horse gelding but not on my 4 year old mare. My horse will never be a candidate for the police academy (even if they took mares). Do you think Salinero or Jazz would be either? No. There are significant differences between a highly bred hot grand prix prospect and a police horse or QH kids horse type horse. You can teach the hot FEI warmblood to stand quietly tied and ride in traffice but it will not likely ever be as mellow and bombproof. You can't make the trail horse be competitive at GP dressage either. Breeding for a certain purpose does make a difference. I assert this because I have grown up on a horse ranch that raised both types. There is a reason trainers put their amateurs on mellow QH types and keep the hot FEI ride with all the bells and whistles to themselves. We are breeding more and more horses today that take a very good hand and a pro ride. These are the highly competitive upper level dressage horses. It would be a lot more scary to leave one of these horses tied to a trailer and walk away than it would be to leave the good ole all arounder.

I think it is great that your dressage horse is your trail horse is your dressage horse. Go out and enjoy it all. If you are good at a lot of things, I doubt you are superb at any one thing. I want a highly competitive dressage horse, not a horse that double as a car to Taco Bell.

I am careful with my horse because I love her and would not want any harm that could have been easily avoided by using a little sense to come to her. However the fact that she is worth more than what 10 average trail horses cost does factor in a little. You would be more careful with a ferrarri than a hyundai too. I am sorry that you are bitter that you don't have a ferrarri to drive (and probably couldn't handle the gears and steering anyway).

shireluver
Jul. 11, 2006, 12:59 PM
As I read this thread, I am reminded of a GP horse that I used to ride. He was a Trakehner, son of Martini, well bred guy. Anyway, he was used for trail riding, and even entered in trail classes, and we considered Western Pleasure classes because he had the moves. And yes, I did not use GP loosely. I saw all his winnings for GP tests, so I know he was the real deal.

The last analogy of a Ferari vs a Hyundai, makes alot of sense. You're right, not everybody can handle a Ferari, but the point of both cars is to get from point A to point B. Also the Ferari may be able to due 120 mph, but 65 is the speed limit. So, in essence, the Ferari needs to be able to do what the Hyundai can do without the excuse, that since it can go faster, it should be allowed to. The Ferari is worth more money, but I don't think money is the issue, everybody needs a car, so they should take care of what they have. ;)

Equilibrium
Jul. 11, 2006, 01:57 PM
Just to clarify, even though I didn't get my first horse til 32, I rode all my life and galloped TB's for 14 years. Just could only afford the luxury now.

I don't think being jealous of people who have really expensive horses is justified. Life is flippin short why waste it on petty crap like that. I'm sure all of us wish we had nice expensive horses that fly though GP tests, but then again maybe that would be boring.

Too all of you that have really expensive horses, well done and I hope you have great successes. To those of you who strive to be the best you can on your average horses, well done too. I just want to be good enough to have a great day out wether it's RC bottom dressage or a bit of showjumping. As long as we're learning, I'm happy.

And unless I plan on doing overnight trips where my horse needs to be tied all night he is not going anywhere near a tree. Keep it simple

Terri

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 11, 2006, 02:32 PM
Ahhh so now the defense is the worth of the horse?

My weanlings sell for 5-10,000 honey. And crosses at that. I dont breed to sell, two were mares that were in foal when I got them. 8 and 9 year old mares that had never had more than a halter on them. I thought they would be a fun test of what I had learned so far.

I have a High School Trained Lusitano, imported from Portugal. Do some research and figure out what one of those costs. Purebred Lusitano.

Exhibition Arabian. This horse I am especially proud of. He had a lot of good training on him when I got him, but he is no Deadhead. Most riders could not handle him out in the open, he and I have developed a special respect and lots of trust for/in each other and we can do it all.

I have a few others as well.. My favorite currently is a Friesian Cross I raised from birth, and is now 3.5 years old. Almost ready to start under saddle, but she has more training than most 4 year olds you will find she can.. work at liberty, bow, kneel, lay down, Sit up, Spanish Walk, pick up and retrieve objects, wave hello, and all on vocal cues only. The gun shots don’t bother her, the tractors are just another thing in the pasture. She is much smaller than her sister the same age is, but if there ever was a Kids Dressage Horse she is it.


My farrier charges me half price because he likes coming to my place. Just call out a horses name and they will come on over stand still and when your done trimming them they go back to the “herd” and then you call the next one over.

Some ignorant fools will say oh that’s trick training, those with a brain know it’s the most fun groundwork you will ever do. So even though she is still young, she has had 3.5 years of time with me and training. I know her temperament, and I can tell you exactly what she is like because she has been asked to do something other than stand around waiting to turn 4. A horse always has a mind of their own, but I can pretty much know how she is going to react to something new. Thus riding down the road is not a yahoo adventure waiting to see what happens and being a dipshit.

Leading, tying, ground tying, clipping, bathing and all the stuff any horse should be able to do are not even a thought. They are a given on my place. The horses are schooled.

She is an honest horse, and the communication channels are established. Hanging out with me is fun for her. My horses jockey for position outside the play pen waiting for their turn to come in and play. The trainers in this world I choose to learn from believe that work should be for a reason. Trick training is just something to do to build trust and communication with the youngsters.

As soon as it cools of a bit I will start her under saddle with light work and then in another year or so we will start real work.

So by no means are my horses trail plugs…Not that there is ANYTHING wrong with a good trail horse, and there is EVERYTHING wrong with a Grand Prix horse you cant ride wherever you want.

I believe in the old calvary officer saying, if your horse dies your next. You think I want my horse running out onto the highway? No, and damn sure no with me on them.

And yes I can ride all of them anywhere and they will be safe and responsible in any surrounding. Its not magic its work.

Now back to the stupid rebuttals…..

That is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. “Oh well my horses are competition horses. Every heard of a horse named Rabauke or Goldstern?

Google the names and you will find out that Competition horses can be just fine riding down the road. These two were real competition horses at the international and Olympic levels. By no means am I comparing myself to the trainer of those horses. I am just a horse lover, but I choose people like that to hold as ideals, not the distorted view of Dressage so many seem to have.

Why do I tie off to a tree to go inside and eat? Because sometimes I get hungry when I am out riding...


Go Shireluver!! The last analogy of a Ferari vs a Hyundai, makes alot of sense. You're right, not everybody can handle a Ferari, but the point of both cars is to get from point A to point B. Also the Ferari may be able to due 120 mph, but 65 is the speed limit. So, in essence, the Ferari needs to be able to do what the Hyundai can do without the excuse, that since it can go faster, it should be allowed to."


For the record I have owned a Ferrari and yes I would go thru the drive thru on it. It was a grey market car so no emission controls and it could make the windows rattle when I revved it up.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 11, 2006, 02:40 PM
You wrote"I might do it on some older QH or some police horse gelding but not on my 4 year old mare. My horse will never be a candidate for the police academy (even if they took mares)."


Here sweetie, go read this....http://www.balkenhol.org/

Click on the link for horses read and then come back and explain that for us will ya?

Those were police horses no?

P.S. I live in a city of over 1 Million. There are very few trails around anymore, and you have to cross a few roads to get from one part to another. so no we are Urban Trail Riders...on our Grand Prix Trail Horses....LOL...

mzpeepers
Jul. 11, 2006, 03:30 PM
Wow! this thread has sure degenerated into a train wreck hasn't it?

It's pretty hard to say things like UDBB is like Leave it to Beaver when some people post with such animosity......PI, I'm one of those who firmly believe a horse should be trained do withstand just about anything, standing tied being just a portion of it, regardless of price tag and/or discipline. Nevertheless I'm truly having a hard time wih your choice of wording. I see no reason to be this harsh no matter how annoying you may find a post.

As far as ground tying....I'm really curious as to what techniques you guys have used. All my horses ground tie but I cannot for the life of me tell you how I did it. It seems that one day they decided it was cool to stand there and wait for me to tell them if and when they could move. I'd be curious to find out if something I did unkwnowingly was the reason for that :D

neVar
Jul. 11, 2006, 04:30 PM
My horse was 'cow boy started' (by our co owner at the time- great guy). And yes- we did the tie and stand. It usually involved either being tied in the stall (empty barn) or at the hitching post while he went around doing chorse (cleaning stalls etc. horse was supervised. This guy has these great reining horses who just park and go to sleep, my guy for the lil blast off spook and bronc he can be- when in doubt we PARK. BOom he relaxes, hangs out- loose rein and just chills with the crowd. we have hanging at the gate down to an art, it was a lfie saver at the first horse show- as well he will tie well at a trailer if needed (haven't) by no means is the proper way to do this leaving a horse out in the hot sun with no water (though truthfully my horse hangs out with the sun and no water i'm sure for more then an hour a day- he aint drinking 24/7 though the water IS there for him). It's not about leaving ahorse who'se never tied there to panic and fight. It's about teaching them patience. and it does IMO build their confidence- they don't need mommy by them holding their hand bet that their handler or another horse.

kkj
Jul. 11, 2006, 05:03 PM
PI the horses that are kicking butt today in high level competitive dressage are not Baroque horses or Arabs or what have you. They are not the big quiet klunky warmbloods of yesteryear. They are very seldom military horses or police horses. They are often very hot horses. Of course there are exceptions, like maybe Bretinna would be a great police horse. My horse does not have the disposition to be a police horse but she does have great rideability and potential for competitive dressage. It is not a matter of handling or training, she is just not a police horse type. Maybe it is due to more specialized breeding or what have you, but I don't think many horses in the German Police force today could give Salinero or Briar or whoever a run for their money.

I believe in ground manners and ground work. I think it is awesome all the ground work you have done with your Friesan cross. My 4 year old does not know any tricks and I admit I don't have a clue of how to teach them. Props to you for that. My horse is very solid in tying, free loads into the trailer, good to clip etc. She is great in new places. She is starting 1st level work although I don't sit on her much. I do not ride her all over the road, trails sure, but not roads. I have known two people in my lifetime that have been killed when their heads hit pavement or cement in a fall off a horse. I wear a helmet but choose not to ride on the road. Call me a wimp. I really don't care. It is like I would not ride a motorcycle. You are so exposed to so many idiots in cars and it is not if you will crash but when. I will never tie my horse to a tree at a fast food place. I would just be too nervous about that. I don't want that Big Mac bad enough to risk her getting hurt. She ties just fine but I would see no need in that.

egontoast
Jul. 11, 2006, 05:44 PM
Politically incorrect, like the name, is likely trailblazer, northplaza or ultimate piaffe or one of their chums. Same nasty anti-dressage, anti warmblood stuff spewed forth.

MyReality
Jul. 11, 2006, 05:44 PM
Nobody said dressage horses don't need manners. All horses need manners. Led, tied, good for vet and farrier, respect for human. Basic stuff. But I thought we are talking about horses being tied for a long time, or hacking on the road. That's a different story.

I would never hack along the road for more than 2 minutes... unless it's a little dirt country road. I don't hack ANY horse along the road if I need to go more than 2 minutes. I don't cross any major road on ANY horse period... I will lead them over if I must.

Why? because I've seen the most horrific accidents. e.g. This horse (and a very good one, she is a polo and drill horse who goes to parades all the time) decided to run... and we didn't even know why. Dump the rider in the middle of a road, tries to jump some wire fence from a ditch and cut both front legs open. I will never do it no matter how good the horse is or how good I am. It has nothing to do with how well you trust the horse or your riding ability. Any horse spook, any rider comes off... those things are a-ok, I can handle it... but I better make sure it doesn't happen on a fricking road with traffic.

If your horse actually likes hacking on the road, I won't even congratulate you... I would just think the owner is stupid. Well unless you are a police, then you MUST do so cuz it's your job... you take much more risk than the average for a honourable reason.

My horse can stand a good half hour. Your horse could stand 2 hours. So what? I would only be concerned if your horse don't even stand 15 minutes or yank the cross ties out in 10 seconds flat.

slc2
Jul. 11, 2006, 06:00 PM
That's great, PI, you've described three-four horses you have and you've sold weanlings, and you paid a lot for your Lusitano. That's so great. Congratulations on paying alot for your Lusitano. Of course, that would mean you have more knowledge than anyone else. Writing checks for large amounts of money for horses, does incur that on a person.

Unfortunately the most obvious give-away of a lack of knowledge and experience with horses, are the statements you made about - well, I'd have to copy your whole posts.

Horses, riders, disciplines, traditions and expectations are all different. Environments are different. Riders are different. Some people aren't comfortable doing some things. Does that make them the devil and you God? Probably not.

It's not safe to ride on the road any more unless you live in Resume Speed, Iowa.

Horses used to be tied up alot, when they cost 10 dollars, and if one broke its neck, it was a piece of equipment and not a pet, like the dad told his kid at our barn, if you kill that one i won't buy you another. Things are a little bit different now.

And frankly, if my horse won the Olympics in dressage, I would not take him out behind the barn and shoot him because he didn't stand tied. Call me impractical, LOL.

slc

egontoast
Jul. 11, 2006, 06:37 PM
And frankly, if my horse won the Olympics in dressage, I would not take him out behind the barn and shoot him because he didn't stand tied. Call me impractical, LOL.


Sometimes, even though it GALLS ME! , I have to agree with the slcster.

nhwr
Jul. 11, 2006, 06:52 PM
I think you could make an arguement that the more valuable a horse is, the more important it is to teach it to tie properly.

I don't think a horse with issues about tying is worthless. But it certainly doesn't decrease a horse's value that they have this skill. That you don't see the benefit to doing something, doesn't mean there is no benefit. It only means get don't see what others do.


And there is another very practical reason for not tieing the horse for long periods of time... for dressage horses. Dressage requires the horse to be supple... a horse before going to do the 5 minue test, needs to be totally soft and warmed up, and tying the horse for any extended period of time is not going to make a supple horse, especially if he is not standing in rubber matts or shavings but on hard ground.

Boy, I guess my experience is different. In my area, it is common to go to a show where rides are spaced several hours apart. And the best way to keep a horse supple aside from a good gymnastic warm up, is giving them as much turn out as possible, which I usually do without the benefit of rubber mats or shavings;)

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 12:44 AM
I didn't have time to muddle through all the muck on the last two pages, though I had to say I was ready to point out Goldstern too, glad you did...I don't want to degress to name calling.... though how can you (not you, the previous poster) be serious in dressage and make a wild comment about Police horses and dressage???? Do they not realize who the USA Olympic Coach is????:no: Iyyeee Kuramba......Give me a break..... I think way back when you said 'buyers, not trainers', you hit the nail on the head.

This has certainly given me a little bit more reason to push for my goal....to have my stallion be competitive nationally in dressage and endurance....Geez...if Goldstern can hold a job as a cop and go to the Olympics....then I can be polictically incorrect too...and keep on with my goal...I'm sure Klaus would smile at that one...:cool: Don't worry, Politically Incorrect, we know that we believe that dressage is a means, not an end...and so does the USA coach...we are in good company...He believes horses were made to use their knowledge from the dressage ring in the real world...yes, we are in good company.;)

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 01:13 AM
slc2-The best horse I have every ridden, owned or been around I paid 350 bucks for. I dont care what a horse costs. Papers, lineage, price tag, Country of Origin.....only matter when buying and selling. They have nothing to do with riding or a good horse.

I was merely replying this post from siegi b-

"Politically Incorrect comes across as a bitter, unhappy person and reminds me very much of 3Sisters or Monica of TOB. Some people just can't stand it when somebody else has more than they do, and God forbid, can spend thousands on a good horse. That's where the hatred starts right away with the likes of PI."

So please dont put me in the I spend a lot on my horse so I know everything category.......

Then there is egoontoast the genius that he/she is....Same nasty anti-dressage, anti warmblood stuff spewed forth.

Say EGOONTOAST---Can you please point out the post in which I said anything Anti Warmblood, or Anti Dressage? If ever I said anything in a negative light about Dressage it had quotation marks around it. I dont have the time to explain to you what that means, but your wrong if you think I dont like Warmbloods or Dressage.

I dont have a warmblood yet, but if I can find a good one at or under 16 hands I like I will get myself one. Actually there is a trainer here who is buying one for me. Just to prove to me that they are stupid. I told her no stupid horses, only stupid people.

After she saw how far this ASB has come, from being a schizzo and dangerous horse, to being able to work cows, and she can Piaffe and Passage all day long! She is having second thoughts about her having to pay for the warmblood or maybe looking foolish.


How about this. How about you dont put you and your horses limitations on others. Its ok if you dont want to train your horses, but dont tell others they shouldnt because of your incompetence. Why is it so hard to believe someone can train their horses to be responsible and safe?I do try to avoid the road if I can, especially on hot days because they are slick and the shoes make it hard if one does bolt....but if I need to cross, then I cross... I am not worried my horse will be stupid about it. Why do I avoid the roads if possible? Because a horses are horses.

Why do I think any horse regardless of how "competitive" they are can be taught to be reliable and safe? Because a horses are horses.

To say that my horse is a competition horse and he is bred to be stupid is not a valid argument...For the most part its an excuse(and a very bad one) to not push yourself to learn more. Your vanity amazes me.

I know nothing, but I want to learn everything. I want to be the best I can for my horses.


Myreality wrote -" I would just think the owner is stupid."

Of course because God forbid someone was a better horse-person/trainer than you are...
Back to you kkj. "PI the horses that are kicking butt today in high level competitive dressage are not Baroque horses or Arabs or what have you."

Girl you need help....Spanish Team HELLO!....How many of those warmbloods dont have Arab blood in them?

For the record the only thing I hate is someone who gives advice without knowing anything. Someone who puts there limitations on others.

Just to clear this misconception up for any of you that seem to be confuse.... It is unsafe to ride horses!

and yes I ride with a helmet always...Even if I am just playing around on them in the paddock. Western Saddle, Polo Saddle, English Saddle...SAME HELMET!

Now will KKJ please go to the link I gave her and explain how those horses could win Olympic Gold and still ride down the road and be police horses?

I have yet to hear any logic from the ones who jumped down my throat because I was jumping on Sabine for giving unqualified advice...your loyalty is admirable but....


Disclaimer-Please note this was not directed at everybody..NWHR and so many others have great points and even some of the people who made some rather unfounded comments had a few good points.

The best way I can sum up what I am trying to say is to quote SLC2-Horses, riders, disciplines, traditions and expectations are all different. Environments are different. Riders are different. Some people aren't comfortable doing some things. Does that make them the devil and you God? Probably not. "

But of course I am the devil for being able to do what you cant or wont. And everyone who ties their horse is the devil to Sabine.....

My point was is and will be that Sabine HK was giving bad advice on this particular topic.

What is TOB????

Now SLC2 I dare you to point out anything I said that proves I dont have experience with horses or knowledge(that I will admit is not as much as someone else could have...

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 01:30 AM
In response to KKJ SAYS " She is super sensitive and responsive. I could ride her in traffic. She would go forward and is not spooky. However, I don't think it is safe. I might do it on some older QH or some police horse gelding.... My horse will never be a candidate for the police academy....... Do you think Salinero or Jazz would be either? No. There are significant differences between a highly bred hot grand prix prospect and a police horse or QH kids horse type horse. You can teach the hot FEI warmblood to stand quietly tied and ride in traffice but it will not likely ever be as mellow and bombproof. You can't make the trail horse be competitive at GP dressage either. Breeding for a certain purpose does make a difference. I assert this because I have grown up on a horse ranch that raised both types. There is a reason trainers put their amateurs on mellow QH types and keep the hot FEI ride with all the bells and whistles to themselves. We are breeding more and more horses today that take a very good hand and a pro ride. These are the highly competitive upper level dressage horses. It would be a lot more scary to leave one of these horses tied to a trailer and walk away than it would be to leave the good ole all arounder."

kkj, do you know who Goldstern is????Goldstern is one of my all time favorite horses, mainly because he
did put his training to use!!!!!!Goldstern, and our Olympic coach, Klaus Balkenhol already disproved your comment years ago. If you are serious about dressage, how can you make comments like you did??? Are you not familiar with the USET coach?!!

I - like Politically Incorrect, trick trained my horse as he was growing up...develops a great bond. My Trakehner stallion does tricks, halter, hunter, distance/endurance, jumps and dressage. He has the basics on for driving, and I may get him hooked to my sled yet. I am glad Politically Incorrect has put their views out there, it is good to know that I am not alone in the thought that a horse can be multitalented... in fact, I think it keeps 'em happy, makes life more interesting for them!!!
Take care,
God Bless...
Christina
~*~Choose thy Love, Love thy Choice~*~
This is my Trakehner Stallion,
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11473555/166193830.jpg

He has learned commands (tricks);
COLOR="navy"]He learned these at a young age, while he was yet growing and we were bonding...
[/COLOR]

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11473555/166193833.jpg

He & I are working with in dressge and schooling upper level movements....here we are at our first dressage training show.. http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11473555/166193835.jpg (burrrrr...it was in February in Illinois!!!!)

We have competed in Endurance and Competitive Trail:placing in top ten everytime....
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11473555/166193839.jpg
And he has won Reserve Champion & monies in Halter & Hunter under saddle...
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11473555/166193844.jpg


Besides this he can work cattle, stand tied all night and goes swimming..he drinks out of bottles and has traversed 13 miles of a 25 mile endurance ride with a mare practically peeing on his shoulder...a mare in full heat. Our dressage instructor thinks he will be FEI level, our jumping trainer sees him going training level xc no problem, he is a prepotent sire...he's wonderful, we have fun with him.... Why is it that so many of you never ride your horse outside of four walls, and bash us that do???? I know, I know, "Congrats on everything you can do with your horse, though I'd never....my horse is too expensive......" Do you really think Trakehners are not expensive? I don't care how much he cost....I'd better have fun with him and he'd better be useful!!!!! BTW the vet clinic thinks he's the best behaved stallion that walks through the doors...:yes: I know this was off the thread about tying, though kkj's comment opened the door for dressage horses that kick up their heels in other arenas....glad mine does too....putting on flame resistant clothing now....:cool:

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 01:40 AM
For the person who said that Arabs/Part Arabs are not excelling in dressage...look into any warmblood registry and you will see that
they are all influenced by Arabian blood...AND check out Robert Dover's Olympic mount, FBW KENNEDY, happens to be out of an Arabian mare.:winkgrin:

WINDFALL< Olympic horse....does well in his level of dressage...what is that third level, not shabby...> He is one fourth Arabian.:eek: :yes: The list goes on...

Sabine
Jul. 12, 2006, 01:57 AM
slc2-The best horse I have every ridden, owned or been around I paid 350 bucks for. I dont care what a horse costs. Papers, lineage, price tag, Country of Origin.....only matter when buying and selling. They have nothing to do with riding or a good horse.

I was merely replying this post from siegi b-

"Politically Incorrect comes across as a bitter, unhappy person and reminds me very much of 3Sisters or Monica of TOB. Some people just can't stand it when somebody else has more than they do, and God forbid, can spend thousands on a good horse. That's where the hatred starts right away with the likes of PI."

So please dont put me in the I spend a lot on my horse so I know everything category.......

Then there is egoontoast the genius that he/she is....Same nasty anti-dressage, anti warmblood stuff spewed forth.

Say EGOONTOAST---Can you please point out the post in which I said anything Anti Warmblood, or Anti Dressage? If ever I said anything in a negative light about Dressage it had quotation marks around it. I dont have the time to explain to you what that means, but your wrong if you think I dont like Warmbloods or Dressage.

I dont have a warmblood yet, but if I can find a good one at or under 16 hands I like I will get myself one. Actually there is a trainer here who is buying one for me. Just to prove to me that they are stupid. I told her no stupid horses, only stupid people.

After she saw how far this ASB has come, from being a schizzo and dangerous horse, to being able to work cows, and she can Piaffe and Passage all day long! She is having second thoughts about her having to pay for the warmblood or maybe looking foolish.


How about this. How about you dont put you and your horses limitations on others. Its ok if you dont want to train your horses, but dont tell others they shouldnt because of your incompetence. Why is it so hard to believe someone can train their horses to be responsible and safe?I do try to avoid the road if I can, especially on hot days because they are slick and the shoes make it hard if one does bolt....but if I need to cross, then I cross... I am not worried my horse will be stupid about it. Why do I avoid the roads if possible? Because a horses are horses.

Why do I think any horse regardless of how "competitive" they are can be taught to be reliable and safe? Because a horses are horses.

To say that my horse is a competition horse and he is bred to be stupid is not a valid argument...For the most part its an excuse(and a very bad one) to not push yourself to learn more. Your vanity amazes me.

I know nothing, but I want to learn everything. I want to be the best I can for my horses.


Myreality wrote -" I would just think the owner is stupid."

Of course because God forbid someone was a better horse-person/trainer than you are...
Back to you kkj. "PI the horses that are kicking butt today in high level competitive dressage are not Baroque horses or Arabs or what have you."

Girl you need help....Spanish Team HELLO!....How many of those warmbloods dont have Arab blood in them?

For the record the only thing I hate is someone who gives advice without knowing anything. Someone who puts there limitations on others.

Just to clear this misconception up for any of you that seem to be confuse.... It is unsafe to ride horses!

and yes I ride with a helmet always...Even if I am just playing around on them in the paddock. Western Saddle, Polo Saddle, English Saddle...SAME HELMET!

Now will KKJ please go to the link I gave her and explain how those horses could win Olympic Gold and still ride down the road and be police horses?

I have yet to hear any logic from the ones who jumped down my throat because I was jumping on Sabine for giving unqualified advice...your loyalty is admirable but....


Disclaimer-Please note this was not directed at everybody..NWHR and so many others have great points and even some of the people who made some rather unfounded comments had a few good points.

The best way I can sum up what I am trying to say is to quote SLC2-Horses, riders, disciplines, traditions and expectations are all different. Environments are different. Riders are different. Some people aren't comfortable doing some things. Does that make them the devil and you God? Probably not. "

But of course I am the devil for being able to do what you cant or wont. And everyone who ties their horse is the devil to Sabine.....

My point was is and will be that Sabine HK was giving bad advice on this particular topic.

What is TOB????

Now SLC2 I dare you to point out anything I said that proves I dont have experience with horses or knowledge(that I will admit is not as much as someone else could have...


anyone who can put so much energy and vile energy for that into a post and a reply- spend the time to highlight and color, quote etc...must not have a life...must be a total malnourished, lonely person, longing for some serious, satisfying contact....from the way you view horses, they seem to be commodities - not able to help you emotionally to calm down...
sorry- apart from the topic here- there is a lot of stuff you say and scold folks with that shows a lot of hurt and pain and anger- deep anger for that matter...and since it's been going on for a while- even if you are just pretending to get people's skin in a roil- it still is not a normal behavior...so PI- get some good help soon!

and bless your horses- consider they have souls too- that might go to heaven one day...

PS: I tie my horses- not to a tree- not for hours- but as needed while I am there.
I am not giving advice- I was sharing a particular tragic experience I had with two horses, that happened to be very expensive and talented and I do not live in a small town - as many noted- I boarded at the country fair- with horses you have never put your butt on..so chill. Just calm down for a tad...will ya...you sound like you're more threatened by the folks around here than you would ever want your horses to be= while tied to a tree....best- as always!!

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:46 AM
Honey I can type up to 65-70 wpm. So its not a lot of EFFORT. Sabine if you highlight the text and then just click the little A above the text box it will put colors in text for you too!! I put the colors in so people dont get confused about what I am saying.

See there you go again. Because it might take you a lot of effort to type something up it must take everyone.

Sabine- God bless your horses souls that ARE in heaven. You better get some help/horsemanship lessons soon or you might send a couple of more to heaven, before my horses get a chance to go.


OK everyone....now THAT was mean and hurtful...Can you see the difference? I wasnt being mean and hurtful before.

Before I was just Politically Incorrect.

Ok Seigi, and the rest of ya, come to her rescue now...

Sabine
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:57 AM
glad you've mastered computers...LOL!
I have sent none to heaven- they are just fine thank you. They are competing as we speak- I think last I hear at the CDI in PB..so no worry...
it just took a lot to repair and heal what had happened- it was sad and expensive and unnecessary...to assume that a horse with a strong spirit could deal with just any BS that came along = while being tied....

so there...I hear Suzy is back- hope you find some greener pastures then...

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:59 AM
They are competing as we speak- I think last I hear at the CDI in PB.. the two you killed in the crossties are now in the CDI? Where is PB? Heaven?

Sabine
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:03 AM
CDI at Pebble Beach- ended yesterday..get educated...this is the dressage board...we talk about dressage horses...forget it...waste of my time.

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:07 AM
Ok Seigi, and the rest of ya, come to her rescue now...

Actually that was the bit that was you being mean and hurtful.

We can all do that, bravo.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:13 AM
"but I don't agree...maybe I have been burned bad- I lost 2 horses to tying/cross tieing accidents..a total of 70K down the drain- I won't do it again - ever...Sorry!!!"


How does knowing what PB means have anything to do with being qualified to discuss horsemanship on a BB?

Oh thats right! We are not discussing horsemanship we are talking about Dressage Horses. (You like that? I can use Letters too!)

For a minute I thought there were at a Peanut Butter something...Thank you for the education. I learned something...Too bad you cant.

P.S. (Look another use of letters!) You should change your BB name (ha! another use of letters) to SabineHK, or SabineSH2H.

Hey anyone watch the CDI GS? RD qualified for the WEG.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:21 AM
it just took a lot to repair and heal what had happened- it was sad and expensive and unnecessary...to assume that a horse with a strong spirit could deal with just any BS that came along = while being tied....

SO you healed and repaired two dead horses you killed in the crossties?

Someone asked me who my "alter personality" was.....


Sabines "alter personilty" must be Jesus Christ himself, she can bring the dead back to life. Glory hallelujah!

P.S. (see more letters, I am almost a Dressage Rider!!!!!...with you having those powers and possibly Jesus himself I formally take back the heaven jokes. No offense...

Sabine
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:23 AM
"but I don't agree...maybe I have been burned bad- I lost 2 horses to tying/cross tieing accidents..a total of 70K down the drain- I won't do it again - ever...Sorry!!!"


How does knowing what PB means have anything to do with being qualified to discuss horsemanship on a BB?

Oh thats right! We are not discussing horsemanship we are talking about Dressage Horses. (You like that? I can use Letters too!)

For a minute I thought there were at a Peanut Butter something...Thank you for the education. I learned something...Too bad you cant.

OK- this is a dressage board- go somewhere else if you want to talk about how great you are trotting on concrete- teaching spanish walk to a 3 yr old and so on...
the horses I lost had to spend a significant time being healed and rehabbed (don't ask me what that means and how much it costs......LOL) after the accidents that were clearly caused by circumstance- unexpected elements aggressively entering their space in a crowded environment...but both were completely healed, painfree and functioning well.

One of the horses was taken over by a well respected pro that felt she could take on his very dominant personality- the other one was tried as a lower level dressage horse and is now a pleasure horse.

They are doing fine and I have made sure that they have a good future.

And that's the end of the story...now go home...!

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:31 AM
So to recap

Some people train their horses to be multi purpose, they trail ride or hack as we call it, ride on the road/highway, go to the drive through/sweet shop/pub whatever
They work cows.... i don't actually know what that entails we don't do that in Europe. They ground tie...ditto but i have seen cowboy movies is that the same thing? It's handy if they can stand still for a long time unattended.
These horses go everywhere they go forward back sideways and can piaffe and passage. Some were very cheap and some were very expensive and they're all different breeds. Sounds good to me it's what i did as a child in the summer holidays.

Other people have chosen a discipline and pursue that as far as they can possibly go. Their horses live a different life they don't attempt to make them multi purpose although as Goldstern proved it is always a possibility.It is not necessary to ride these horses everywhere nor tie them up or leave them standing for a long time although if you wanted to i'm sure you could train it. They are trained for the purpose they are used for and the purpose they are bred for. Some are really expensive some are not. Also sounds good to me.

What is it you guys are fighting over? i don't get it.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:03 AM
Its asphalt not concrete. Spanish Walk is a very useful exercise when training a Dressage Horse. Of course you would have to know something about shoulder movment, conformation and HORSES to understand that.... so I forgive you Sabine.

And of course your horse that spooked, who did not die as you led everyont to believe earlier, has NOW ended up a trail horse because of the spooking right...otherwise he would have been Grand Prix just like none of your others are.
Or we could say if you were more experienced in horses yourself you could have got him past the trauma, but nope...

Fiona add one more category to your recap. The horses can work the cows, ride down the road and still do Piaffe and Passage tranistions better than Sabines Ultra Competitive Dressage Horses and half pass zig zags when chasing the cows to boot!! With one in particular I can do a nice courbette, levade and pessade! I love doing a nice Pessade as we leave the drive thru...Hi ho Silver....and away....

Actually what we are fighting over is the definition of Dressage. The modern carrot lady definition, or what has been historically known as correct dressage. Systematic training of the mind, body and spirit of a horse to prepare him for any situation that may arise,
either in battle or otherwise.

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:22 AM
But why are you fighting with Sabine? What's a carrot lady? And why is it a problem that some people like to train for historical dressage as you describe and some like to train for competition dressage in an arena? Am i missing something here, is this for fun or serious?

letaquinent
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:37 AM
Oi...Fiona...I'm with you.

I'm still curious, as others, to see what methods people use to train their horses to ground tie.

I have pretty much read through the whole thread, though I've skimmed most of the fighting. Unless I missed something...I don't think ANY one person on this has said "I totally disagree with tying, I think it's stupid, my horse doesn't need to know how."

In fact, it seems as though everyone has a horse that knows how to tie and feels that their horses SHOULD know how to tie. It's just that some don't feel the need to tie their horse for hours, while others think it's a valuable training method. So, really, we're getting down to arguing over the length of time someone trains their horse and whether or not they leave them unattended.

Am I right here...? Or have I read everything wrong? Excluding what is going on between Sabine and Politically Incorrect, as that's completely strayed from the content of the OP.

Back to lurking...

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:46 AM
And why is it a problem that some people like to train for historical dressage as you describe and some like to train for competition dressage in an arena?


Thats what I am trying to figure out myself?

Here is my play by play commentary of the events that unfolded on COTH today.

The disagreement in question started with Sabine giving advice she was not qualified to give, then backed her argument with the the fact that she personally killed two horses so if she cant do it no one can. Later she brought the horses back to life Then Sabine starts talking in code and I must not know about dressage because I dont know the codes, one of the horses she raised from the dead is at a cdi in pb, apparently not peanut butter. And the other is a trail horse which before she never owned a trail horse. So who knows....Me thinks Sabine is possible bi polar schizzophrenic who needs to take her meds and find a man.

Then my horses were worthless and theirs cost a lot of money so they must know, then I am a know it all who spent a lot of money on my horses, then I am driving a Hyndai, and they a Ferrari, which I actually owned at one time,

Then I was accused of being stupid or good rider/trainer I cant figure that one out yet. Because my horses can go down the road and thru the drive thru when I need to eat.

Then Baroque breeds arent competitive, then the Spanish team rides them...

Then its if your horse was bred to Piaffe and Passage he wont be able to stand tied or be responsible or safe, and High Level compeition horses and Dressage horses are hot and arent good police horses. and I am stupid for not knowing that....... and then rabuke and Goldstern were Olympic Dressage Champions and Police Horses... and KKJ avoids the topic.

Then we cant disagree, then we can...I am correct...which according to KKJ, Sabine and the Carrot Lady Klan I am not. So dont quote me on that part just yet....now I think were back to we cant disagree again....


We are currently heading back to the no one has any logic or grounds to debate their stance on anything they will tell you is fact....other than "my Carrot lady friend thinks so too, and we both just cliniced with so and so....SO THERE!"

And if you disagree well then your John Travolta swimming with a man from Snowy River doing the Spanish Walk??...I think...

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 05:53 AM
....Me thinks Sabine is possible bi polar schizzophrenic who needs to take her meds and find a man.

In my opinion that's deliberately mean, spiteful, disrespectful to those that are unfortunate enough to suffer mental illness and shows incredibly poor taste. I don't understand the basis of your fight with sabine it seems to be based on a ( deliberate?) misconception of each others point of view. The expression of your disagreement certainly has little merit imho.

sidepasser
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:39 AM
For those who state that Arabs don't win at dressage - OKW Entrigue won on Friday at PB and took home the Perpetual Trophy. I'd say that was pretty high level dressage at that show.


ok - trainwreck continue...

slc2
Jul. 12, 2006, 07:30 AM
Politically Incorrect, I do believe your posts are the most personally targeted and insulting I have ever seen here.

"possible bi polar schizzophrenic who needs to take her meds and find a man"

Well, the bulletin board has been led to new lows in juvenile behavior. This kind of crap just sickens me. What exactly is the matter with people who say stuff like this? How old are you, what is your level of maturity, and what sort of mentition do you have that leads you to such statements?

One of my patients once said to someone who made a similar comment, 'Fortunately, I can take medication for what I have. You're just an a**hole, and there's no medication for that'.

slc

kkj
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:27 AM
Fiona you are very sane and reasonable thanks. I could learn a lot from you. Thanks slc2 as well.

PI and Trakhener2000 this is my last attempt before the white flag. I follow competitive dressage. Have been to a few World Cups and Olympics. I know about the Spanish team. I have seen some Baroque horses do pretty well. Personally, not my cup of tea as I don't like the short fat necks and lack of extension. I think as competitive dressage goes the Hanoverians and Dutch etc are going to continue to come out on top. That is just my personal preference, prejudice though. Dressage is very subjective and I am free to feel this way about Baroque horses. But since I have never ridden one I will shut up about it. As for Arabs, I have nothing against them. If I was a smaller person I might buy one. For FEI competitive dressage I think you are much better off on a Dutch or Hanoverian or other warmblood. I know many warmbloods have a lot of Arab blood but I am talking about pure Arabs here. The Arab that just won at PB, what level?

Trakheners2000 who is your stallion? Nice to have an all arounder type. Great you can get so much use out of him. I still assert that if you are good at many things, you are probably not spectacular at any one. If you get your horse winning 100 mile endurance races and nationally at FEI, I will eat my words.

I am talking about the specialized bred for FEI warmbloods who are more hot sensitive pro rides. I am talking about the horses that will win in the big ring today not the ones that can do eventing and cattle drives and 4th level. We have been breeding for the spectacular animated hot sensitive dressage horse. Goldstern was a great horse. Competitive Dressage has evolved even since then. The steady eddy correct horse is not enough today. We want to see the Salineros (or at least I and most of the judges do) I still assert Salinero would not be a good police horse but he is so spectacular in the ring.

You can totally disagree with me on the state or direction of competitive dressage or the history and purpose of dressage or whatever. If your horse is trained in every trick, cuts cows, ties up at taco bell and kicks my horse's butt at FEI, I will again eat my words.

I believe in cross training and riding outside the ring. I believe in excellent ground manners including safe tying. I just have no need or desire to take my horse in endurance rides or to chase cows or ride on roads or whatever.

clanter
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:48 AM
kkj...what lead us to Dressage was Competitive Trail..we use a lot of the same elements of dressage in working hazards that are a part of Competitive Trail

Our Morgans will never been top Drassage horses however they are top Competitive Trail and Working Western Horses.

By the way, most National Forests will not let you tie to a tree you have to use overhead tie lines that have tree protectors around the trees

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 09:24 AM
What is competitive trail? what does it entail and how did it originate?

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 12:50 PM
But why are you fighting with Sabine? What's a carrot lady? And why is it a problem that some people like to train for historical dressage as you describe and some like to train for competition dressage in an arena? Am i missing something here, is this for fun or serious?
The point, to me...is dressage was a means not an end... a means to make a horse more useful...now, after seeing that many train the horse in dressage, and dressage is the end....well....I understand that riding outside of an arena is scary....honestly, I do. I am not being sarcastic...please don't take it wrong. It should be acknowledged by any dressage rider, even if dressage is your end.....that dressage was NEVER ment to be the end...it was intended to be a means....a training for other uses....like battle, or in Goldsterns case, like being a cop. I am sorry that such a good thread turned into such a muck pile.....

mzpeepers
Jul. 12, 2006, 12:57 PM
Competitive trail =

http://www.natrc.org/


PI I'm absolutely flabberghasted at your attitude.
Disagreeing on a particular subject is ok.
Having some sort of words with one another while arguing the subject in question goes with the territory. Usually after the argument is over we all either go our separate ways or agree to disagree, no harm done.
BUT, personally attacking one particular poster with vicious insults, calling her psychotic, calling her a killer.....THAT is unacceptable in my book.
Aside from the fact that you obviously do not know Sabine (see the comment about finding a man LOL), it appears to me by the obvious anger you display that is you who are the one in need of some serious psychological help. Please do get some as soon as possible.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 01:07 PM
Funny no one say anything about Sabine insulting me or anyone else for that matter.

My diagnosis was probably dead on. Follow her posts she flip flops constantly. I killed my horses no I didnt, I dont tie my horses, yes I do...


KKJ-Please enlighten us. What level do you compete at?

My guess is never past 2nd or 3rd and if so certainly not on a horse you trained. I could be wrong but I doubt it. You follow competitive dressage and watching the Olympics doesnt make you a high level competitor. You tell T2000 that she is probably not good at any one thing....

Exactly what one thing are you good at?

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 01:33 PM
Trakheners2000 who is your stallion? Nice to have an all arounder type. Great you can get so much use out of him. I still assert that if you are good at many things, you are probably not spectacular at any one. If you get your horse winning 100 mile endurance races and nationally at FEI, I will eat my words.


Better yet, kkj, come ride a CTR or LD with me~;) You might like it!!!!




What is competitive trail? what does it entail and how did it originate?
NOT ALL CTR (competitive trail ride) is like NATRC.. I, personally have never done a NATRC CTR. The rides I have done are not run/judged that way.

CTR that I have ridden have been 25 miles. Your horse is vetted out and scored before the ride, and must past vet exam for you to be entered in the ride. They check, among other things, pulse, respiration, back soreness, lameness, swelling in joints and for dehydration. You are scored on these things, they also make note of any scraps/scars so that they are noted, and you are not marked down for them later. CTR is not a race, and you are given an 'ideal' time, for example, 4 hours 10 minutes...(varies depending on terrain, hard terrain=more time) You must complete within the time window given or be deducted a point for each minute you are in faster or slower from this time. The horse that finishes with the best overall score, for physical condition wins.

Limitied distance is similar, though it is an actual, who finishes first with a healthy horse wins...
I got into distance riding because a woman I sold my gelding to sent a cute little update card, telling me what she and he were up to....I was like, what is Competitive Trail???? A trail class in the woods???? I had odd images of how that was run.... She emailed me back and forth and I attended some clinics....volunteered at a ride and entered a 5 mile "TASTE" ride....which is a clinic with a 5 mile ride and a potluck...friendship making time at the end....Well, my horse LOVED IT....absolutely loved it....and green though we were....he won it....and brought home some lovely prizes....
the next ride was a 25 miler...he placed eighth, against some experienced horses..and next time he won sixth.... I could see that not only did he love it, so did we....so why not do it????


Why would you think that a horse & horse person cannot be good at more than one thing???? Does being a good business woman make you a bad mom???? Or does being a great mom make you a bad wife???? NO, it comliments each other.....what you are saying, that my horse/ nor I could be good at more than one thing is rediculous.....Not only are we good at many things, we are good at other things in life, like loving God, being a good wife, helping others and being acclaimed for being a great Treatment foster mom....some things I have done in Treatment foster care have been made into training resources.....

HOW can you say that if you are good at many things you are great at nothing???? THAT is mean, shallow, and taking a pot shot at everyone here,
to me, because I believe we can all be great at many things... in horses and in life.....:yes:

Done right, the things in your life, and your horse life compliment each other, and come together like a beautiful tapestry....
Jim & I have a great marriage, beautiful home and are blessed with horses and child rearing knowledge....and have chosen to share those gifts with teen boys that are struggling in life. All these things compliment each other, and all the good things in our life come down from God, We are all created by God, and He excels at much.... do you not think He wants His children to, also?

Our CTR- & Endurance riding have brought us some of the best memories and joy in our life, camping with your loved ones and your horses is a great joy, great family time and the memories that make life great. Just like our filly being born into my husbands arms....or watching my foster son ride with me yesterday, him on our paint mare, with her filly by our stallion galloping at her side, and me riding the first horse we had ever foaled...on our property....that is fullfillment...that is a picture of things coming together and the picture of being great at many things in life..... then I went to the boarding stable and worked my endurance/dressage stallion in flying changes, piaffe, half pass etc... I do everything I do because it brings me joy, because I want to do it, because God gifted me to do it....because I love it- and if Shadrach makes it to the highest level in dressage, and/or Endurance, it will be because we enjoyed it, were gifted by God to do it and because...we found joy in it... besides everything else I do photography too, I don't want it to be my profession, I want it to be a gift, that I use to bless others, and have in countless ways....COTH'ers...Look out side your own four walls, be a blessing to someone else today, you can only be truly happy when you take your eyes off yourself and be kind to others...so enough bashing please.... could we bring a little blessing and kindness to the forumn?? Please.....:cool:

kkj
Jul. 12, 2006, 01:52 PM
T2000 I understand what you are saying and I don't totally disagree with it. I do think it is OK to have your end goal be a competitive dressage horse just as it is OK to have your end goal be a safe trail horse or a winning show jumper or whatever. I don't like it when some people never get their show horses out of the arena or keep them in a cage with no turnout. I did not say contrary to PI assertion that you are not good at anything just that I doubt if your horse is good at a lot of things that it is exceptional at one. If your stallion is a versatile good all rounder that is awesome. Those are some of the best horses you can find.

PI Oh boy. Well, no I have not competed in FEI yet. I have never until my 4 year old owned a horse with FEI potential. I have started over 30 horses myself and trained them myself to 3rd level. I came from the hunter world. I have trained a horse from weanling to winner at A shows hunters. I have done training level eventing on a horse I trained. I have trained many horses over fences and have jumped 4'9" courses. I can ride. Since switching to strict dressage I now have a horse I can go somewhere with. I have had plenty of nice jumping, good on the trails, good to 3rd level type horses in the past. My end goal is to win at competitive dressage, so fire away if that bothers you. I have had several big trainers and clinicians say that my current horse has grand prix potential and barring injury or something I plan with the help of my FEI winning trainer to get her to FEI.

etk
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:00 PM
Yes, Goldstern was a great horse, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Klaus is not tying Kingston, Brentina, Floriano, etc. to the patience pole at their training sessions. lol

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:07 PM
Yes, Goldstern was a great horse, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Klaus is not tying Kingston, Brentina, Floriano, etc. to the patience pole at their training sessions.

ETK, I am sure that tying is part of any upper level horse's training, after all, they have to stand tied and quiet for the plane ride, right?
:yes:

I'm sorry...after nearly ten pages...eigther you are going to agree to disagree, or you are going to be rude...how about agree to disagree...:cool:

kkj
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:10 PM
T2000, I was typing my last post and did not see your last one until now. So to respond- Cool I have no problem with you. PI is another matter but you and your horses and all are cool. You may very well be good at a lot of things. The point I keep failing in making is that horses are specialized. The best eventers in the world are not going to win at Grand Prix dressage against the best dressage horses. The best jumpers are not going to win 100 mile endurance races against the arabs etc etc. Horse breeding is becoming more specialized not less. A lot of Grand Prix dressage horses can't jump well at all, but they are great at what they do. The long distance endurance horses I have seen (and I admit I don't know much about the sport) have conditioning and muscle development that is nothing like a dressage horse. They often trot around totally hollow and inverted.

There are some stallions out there that do well at both FEI dressage and Jumping -Ferro was one or Argus (both deceased I am sure there are lots of others I don't know) A lot of times a jumper bred horse will make a fabulous dressage horse ie) Salinero. However, I don't know of any horses that could win at Grad Prix today in both jumping at dressage or dressage and 100 mile endurance races or Advanced eventing and Grand Prix dressage or whatever. The bar has been raised in all the individual disciplines. If a horse is truly multitalented to the degree that it could excel in more than one discipline at the highest level, the lucky owner will have to choose which one if the horse is truly to excel. Maybe some very rare horses can go to Grand Prix in Jumping and then switch over to dressage, but this would be very rare indeed.

Karoline
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:13 PM
The method that was used with my mare and I witnessed being used with yearlings and up at the farm she came from was fairly simple.

When the horses are very small. They are groomed with a halter and long lead rope. The groomer who spends lots of time whith them, keeps his foot on the lead rope so that the baby realizes that he is "confined" to a small area and cant move around - but he is getting lots of grooming/reinforcement for standing still.

When they get older they use what someone here called the patience pole. Basically, while being groomed, they are attached to a pole, or even a lign that runs above their heads so that they have nothing to pull agaisnt and get injured and have some movement availability. In the meantime, they are groomed, pampered and reinforced for being still.

Third phase I have seen is a lot of round pen/ arena work teaching the horse to stay still with a hand command. Putting the lead rope down, giving a stay command and walking from the horse, turning and using a hand command to remind the horse to stay...after a while the horse begins to understand its job.

I will say that my mare who ground ties perfectly cannot be tied to a fixed object as she panicks violently. The solution is to loop the rope over the bar once or twice so she the rope gives when she pulls. Once she feels the give she stops pulling and steps forward. She is safer ground tying.

I am sure there are other methods, but these are the ones I have seen personally.

Also seen a friend letting her two mustangs go in a small field with tall grass and branches down with a halter and long rope so they learn to stays still when they get entangled. With her overseeing.

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:19 PM
Thanks, Karoline, I have never taught a horse to ground tie, so I wondered how it was done
You brought up a good point about the turning loose with a halter/lead rope. At some point in their life, we do this with all of our horses,
they learn to not panic when they are stepping on the rope...a little controlled training can go a long way...

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:33 PM
I still don't understand what everyone is fighting over and being so darned unpleasant for!

We have similar to your CTR's here, there are professional categories, more time/speed orientated categories and endurance all with their own rules. It is not my interest but i appreciate the riding skill and horse management that goes into it. I would imagine that Arab/ arab crosses would be particularly well suited to this sport, i can also see that dressage training would be beneficial.

Personally i think FEI especially GP is a big ask i don't expect the horses to have 2nd and 3rd careers - to me it would be greedy and entail unnecessary risk and mileage on their joints but that is just my personal opinion. Other people may have a different rationale and different interests which i can respect.

PI Well the cavalry showed up as expected .....
My diagnosis was probably dead on. Follow her posts she flip flops constantly......KKJ-Please enlighten us. What level do you compete at?.........My guess is never past 2nd or 3rd and if so certainly not on a horse you trained. I could be wrong but I doubt it.......Exactly what one thing are you good at?

PI are you qualified to make a diagnosis in regard of an individuals mental health status? It is incredibly unkind to diminish and demean as traumatic condition as Bi Polar disorder, i'm not sure the term Schizophrenia is in use any more, it's not used in the UK but it's a serious condition.

I would defend anyone that i noticed being insulted unreasonably so don't take it out of context when you are criticised but you are bang out of order! I tend to skip your posts as i find them difficult to comprehend but a mean streak sure stands out.

Sabine
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:34 PM
first I said..."I lost 2 horses to tying accidents" - I did not kill them- they were for a period of 18 months not usable for the purpose intended- because they were injured.

second- I don't appreciate personal attacks- I don't need a man- I am very blessed in that department- actually with someone who professionally trains all the historical dressage movements on Andalusians that are presented in a large establishment..

finally- all those that find PI in need of medical care, I agree and suggest Prozac to start...

MSpeeps- Fiona and all the others- thank you for your support...

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:37 PM
You're welcome.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:43 PM
Oh I got your point about specialized horses..My point was and is you are not competing at any levels that specialized training would hold any merit.

Your riding training level and worried about specialized training???

I started 30 horses in the last three years. Was called in to help school Piaffe and passage for a trainer that competes (all be it at the lower levels until now) and I get the calls from trainers to help with their problem horses. I will still be the first person to tell you I am not a trainer nor do I have any real knowledge about training a horse. I just like to play with them.

Third Level? What is that? IF you mean basic training, lateral movements, canter departs and lead changes well thats the basic requirement of any good trail horse.

I think its great you jumped 4'9 on a course. Two weeks ago when returning from our "trail ride", I cleared a four fence on my non competitive (as you put it) Arab because I didnt feel like opening the gate. Didnt think of it as an accomplishment of any kind. Just being lazy..

I want to tell you a story. Try to keep an open mind here, and maybe you will see where I am coming from...

I played soccer for years. All the way to Semi-Pro division (which is about like lower level dressage, nice sounding term meaning I wasnt good enough to play pro).

When I was a kid we had a coach for a few years who was great. We loved practice. It was so much fun becuase we never really "practiced" like the other teams did....but we were undefeated in our league for the entire time he coached us.

While everyone else was running laps and doing cario.

Our coach would throw the soccer ball up and say Rugby!. We would go to bed at night exhausted from running so much but it never seemed like work.


While everyone else was practicing ball handling and moving it down the field.

He would have us play 3 on 2 keep away. If you got your ball taken you had to be the person we kept it away from till you got it back and so on...trying to score a goal as we kept it away.

While the other teams were doing accuracy/shooting drills our coach would put up a target or better yet make us try to hit the goalie with the ball.

We loved practice. It was always fun.

I was older and talking to an old timer cowboy who said sneak the work in on your horse. Dont bore him to death. Immediately I thought about my old soccer coach.

That sneaky coach had us working harder in practice than any other team worked.. We spent more time on ball handling skills than any other team, and we spent more time on accuracy than any other team and because it was fun we were enthusiastic about doing it...

Some fools will have you believe you can not ride accurately on the trail. Fillis himself did almost all of his training out on hacks. You dont have to be in an arena to be mindful of your posture and aids....


When you show up at the barn your horse knows the drill, you could probably cut him loose and he will do it on his own. Some circles in the sand, then some of this then some of that and then a bath then back to the stall.
The next time you see a "trail rider" dont assume they are just yahooing around. Why do our horses learn so much faster than those in an arena?
Becuase they dont know they are being trained. Its a fun outing for them.

Keep your horses interested, sneak the training in on them and they will move along much faster in their training....

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:45 PM
someone who professionally trains all the historical dressage movements on Andalusians that are presented in a large establishment..

And what establishment would that be??

mzpeepers
Jul. 12, 2006, 02:48 PM
Funny no one say anything about Sabine insulting me or anyone else for that matter.

LOL we're used to a somewhat snotty attitude from some posters:D Besides, you seem perfectly capable to take care of yourself.


My diagnosis was probably dead on. Follow her posts she flip flops constantly. I killed my horses no I didnt, I dont tie my horses, yes I do...


That doesn't mean the woman is psychotic. Confused perhaps. Trying to appease the lynch mob perhaps. Don't know, don't care. Whatever her motives or lack thereof it is pretty ridiculous to say the least to give an instant cyber-diagnosis.



CTR that I have ridden have been 25 miles. Your horse is vetted out and scored before the ride, and must past vet exam for you to be entered in the ride. They check, among other things, pulse, respiration, back soreness, lameness, swelling in joints and for dehydration. You are scored on these things, they also make note of any scraps/scars so that they are noted, and you are not marked down for them later. CTR is not a race, and you are given an 'ideal' time, for example, 4 hours 10 minutes...(varies depending on terrain, hard terrain=more time) You must complete within the time window given or be deducted a point for each minute you are in faster or slower from this time. The horse that finishes with the best overall score, for physical condition wins

that sounds like a blast. Like an endurance ride without the racing. I must look into that.

etk
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:03 PM
ETK, I am sure that tying is part of any upper level horse's training, after all, they have to stand tied and quiet for the plane ride, right?
[/COLOR]

Isn't that what sedatives are for? lol

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:06 PM
KKJ, my stallion just turned six a month ago....we too, are at the beginning of the journey...

KKJ I see your point about many top endurance horses, and many, if not all of the top endurance riders are cross training in dressage to battle the effects that you mentioned. Arabian Horse magazine carried an article in 2003 or 2004 about the similar quailities in dressage and endurance...many people are catching onto it...it is VERY common for endurance riders to be in dressage lessons...because they do compliment one another.

Distance riding builds confidence, endurance, strength (especially in joints/ligaments) and creates the opportunity for the development of an indescribable bond between horse and rider. Those are all quailities that any dressage horse can benefit from.

Is all this friction because a few people are living outside of the 'norm' of the dressage world?

If I died today, I would not ever regret swimming with my horses, distance riding with my horses, feeling that joy of seeing our horses foaled, being able to ask my horse to lay down, to sit, to bow, to piaffe, to passage.....I will most likely smile to myself as I feel the joy of living in the moment, and doing what brought me joy....the minutes you spend in the show ring are momentary compared to the moments you spend in life...and I would never regret leaving my horse have his long flowing mane when the 'norm' is to pull it out....the same way, I do not regret living a free and happy life...that lasts longer than any time in a show arena....though that is just me, I'm about the journey, the ride....realization of the destination is fleeting....the journey is your life. I am sure you are living out your journey with joy too, it just doesn't mean that mine has to be the same as yours....I for one will not rip my horse's mane out, just because it is the norm....It is useful as it is beautiful.....just one other way, I *might* be a little out side of the norm..
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/6102621/166354750.jpg

It looks good up, so why rip it out???

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/6102621/166354742.jpg


If he excels and masters one or more disciplines...great...if not, I have still lived the life I've longed to live...I would not trade this horse for any other....



BTW-
Some of the most amazing athletes in the world cross train. I am sure that Lance Armstrong cross trains...and Michael Jordan did...being excellent often creates a desire to do more than others might do.

Trakehners2000
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:28 PM
Personally i think FEI especially GP is a big ask i don't expect the horses to have 2nd and 3rd careers - to me it would be greedy and entail unnecessary risk and mileage on their joints but that is just my personal opinion. Other people may have a different rationale and different interests which i can respect.


I'm glad there is much we can agree on....I learned so much by getting into distance riding...your pre concieved ideas about it maybe wrong...as mine were....I found out horses love it....that endurance horses have very long careers, healthy ones, on my first distance ride, I found that towards the end, one horse was doing particularly well, and commented, because I was surprised, as she was what looked to me to be a very overweight, little (pony sized) Arab.....she was a little tank...and we were nearly back, and she barely looked like this was any effort for her....when I asked about the little mare...everyone laughed and said that mare probably had more miles on her than the collective group of six that we were, and in that group were lifelong distance riders....by the way, that fat, healthy little mare was 20 years old...and looked like she was 10 or 12.....wow...:eek: :yes: This theme has been repeated as I meet new horses and riders from this 'arena' of distance riders....maybe some of you would be interested in that many if not most or all of the OLDEST riders in the world compete in endurance!!!!!!!!! Check out Julie Suhr, her book, Ten Feet Tall, still, and you will be inspired to be riding into your eighties like Julie, she didn't even start really riding until she was 41 and has become a legend... When I grow old, God Bless me like Julie Suhr and let me ride forever!!!!!!:yes:
Julie has been competitive & a legend in Distance riding well into her eighties.....GOD BLESS YA JULIE!!!! Your are an inspiration!!!!

Sandy M
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:45 PM
I'm absolutely speachless.:no: ...I can't imagine owning a horse that can't be tied. It's in noway cruel..


Amen. I rarely go to a more than one day show. I usually get there at least two hours before my classes. My horse stands tied to my trailer, on a "leader" tie line (think enormous bungee), with feed and water. Since rides are usually an hour or two apart, he stands tied another hour or so. I'm usually in the vicinity, and I have a friend with me usually, but if I do NOT, I certainly expect him to stand quietly tied. And if I want to go and watch a few classes, I don't worry about him being tied there. Same thing for trail rides, etc. He is a dressage horse and standing tied has never done him any harm. He's been shown since he was 4 and is now 20. Most shows I go to, the horses are TIED to their trailers. Since when is a "dressage" thing to have horses that do not tie? Talk about adding to the "DQ" image! " Poopisie doesn't tie. She's a DRESSAGE horse." So that means no manners required? Since when did TYING a horse become cruel? Tying head to tail, or head to girth and leaving in that position, yes, cruel. Tying and leaving the area for 4 of 5 hours - not a good idea. But cruel to tie to a trailer at a horse show? Geesh.

kkj
Jul. 12, 2006, 03:54 PM
PI much nicer more sane post aimed at me thanks.

I agree all (almost) horses can and should be trained to third.

I agree that you should not drill your horses like some dressage people do and that training can take place out of the ring. I agree horses need to have fun and enjoy the learning too.

Getting a horse to FEI (if you don't buy it already there) is a long process. I have through years of owning and training horses learned that I would rather start with something that has the potential and not waste my time with something that I will out grow (like I have with so many others) After riding a couple of friends FEI horses and getting a taste of the passage, canter pirouettes etc, I want to get there. I don't want to buy the FEI horse (or as you say the levels) but I don't begrudge anyone that.

Karoline
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:03 PM
I vote for Medieval Times and perhaps William Duer as the significant other. If that is the case Sabine, you must get the boy online to share his techniques. And we are (well some of us) very envious that you may get to ride all these Andalusians beauty.

mbm
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:04 PM
And why is it a problem that some people like to train for historical dressage as you describe and some like to train for competition dressage in an arena?


Thats what I am trying to figure out myself?

Here is my play by play commentary of the events that unfolded on COTH today.

The disagreement in question started with Sabine giving advice she was not qualified to give, then backed her argument with the the fact that she personally killed two horses so if she cant do it no one can. Later she brought the horses back to life Then Sabine starts talking in code and I must not know about dressage because I dont know the codes, one of the horses she raised from the dead is at a cdi in pb, apparently not peanut butter. And the other is a trail horse which before she never owned a trail horse. So who knows....Me thinks Sabine is possible bi polar schizzophrenic who needs to take her meds and find a man.

Then my horses were worthless and theirs cost a lot of money so they must know, then I am a know it all who spent a lot of money on my horses, then I am driving a Hyndai, and they a Ferrari, which I actually owned at one time,

Then I was accused of being stupid or good rider/trainer I cant figure that one out yet. Because my horses can go down the road and thru the drive thru when I need to eat.

Then Baroque breeds arent competitive, then the Spanish team rides them...

Then its if your horse was bred to Piaffe and Passage he wont be able to stand tied or be responsible or safe, and High Level compeition horses and Dressage horses are hot and arent good police horses. and I am stupid for not knowing that....... and then rabuke and Goldstern were Olympic Dressage Champions and Police Horses... and KKJ avoids the topic.

Then we cant disagree, then we can...I am correct...which according to KKJ, Sabine and the Carrot Lady Klan I am not. So dont quote me on that part just yet....now I think were back to we cant disagree again....


We are currently heading back to the no one has any logic or grounds to debate their stance on anything they will tell you is fact....other than "my Carrot lady friend thinks so too, and we both just cliniced with so and so....SO THERE!"

And if you disagree well then your John Travolta swimming with a man from Snowy River doing the Spanish Walk??...I think...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OMG!!!!!! what a hoot!!!!!

clanter
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:22 PM
Quote:
CTR that I have ridden have been 25 miles. Your horse is vetted out and scored before the ride, and must past vet exam for you to be entered in the ride. They check, among other things, pulse, respiration, back soreness, lameness, swelling in joints and for dehydration. You are scored on these things, they also make note of any scraps/scars so that they are noted, and you are not marked down for them later. CTR is not a race, and you are given an 'ideal' time, for example, 4 hours 10 minutes...(varies depending on terrain, hard terrain=more time) You must complete within the time window given or be deducted a point for each minute you are in faster or slower from this time. The horse that finishes with the best overall score, for physical condition wins


that sounds like a blast. Like an endurance ride without the racing. I must look into that.
-----------------

This 25 miler would a B series NATRC ride with the difference being the Rider is also judged. Both the horse and Rider have separate cards and are place individually with the overal winners as a joint placing of the combined cards

An A section ride could range between usually 40 to 55 miles (could be up to 70 or so miles) depending upon which division you are riding in.

The B rides are one day and A are two, normally

mzpeepers
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by PoliticallyIncorrect
And why is it a problem that some people like to train for historical dressage as you describe and some like to train for competition dressage in an arena?


Thats what I am trying to figure out myself?

Here is my play by play commentary of the events that unfolded on COTH today.

The disagreement in question started with Sabine giving advice she was not qualified to give, then backed her argument with the the fact that she personally killed two horses so if she cant do it no one can. Later she brought the horses back to life Then Sabine starts talking in code and I must not know about dressage because I dont know the codes, one of the horses she raised from the dead is at a cdi in pb, apparently not peanut butter. And the other is a trail horse which before she never owned a trail horse. So who knows....Me thinks Sabine is possible bi polar schizzophrenic who needs to take her meds and find a man.

Then my horses were worthless and theirs cost a lot of money so they must know, then I am a know it all who spent a lot of money on my horses, then I am driving a Hyndai, and they a Ferrari, which I actually owned at one time,

Then I was accused of being stupid or good rider/trainer I cant figure that one out yet. Because my horses can go down the road and thru the drive thru when I need to eat.

Then Baroque breeds arent competitive, then the Spanish team rides them...

Then its if your horse was bred to Piaffe and Passage he wont be able to stand tied or be responsible or safe, and High Level compeition horses and Dressage horses are hot and arent good police horses. and I am stupid for not knowing that....... and then rabuke and Goldstern were Olympic Dressage Champions and Police Horses... and KKJ avoids the topic.

Then we cant disagree, then we can...I am correct...which according to KKJ, Sabine and the Carrot Lady Klan I am not. So dont quote me on that part just yet....now I think were back to we cant disagree again....


We are currently heading back to the no one has any logic or grounds to debate their stance on anything they will tell you is fact....other than "my Carrot lady friend thinks so too, and we both just cliniced with so and so....SO THERE!"

And if you disagree well then your John Travolta swimming with a man from Snowy River doing the Spanish Walk??...I think...




OMG!!!! Now THAT is funny!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:42 PM
You thanked me for being nice, I do want to point out I never meant to be not nice to you. Just a little mental sparring....

As far as Sabine goes she goes around here barking at everyone and being snotty. This time she barked at the wrong dog.

I can get as mean and snotty as anyone believe me...but I dont mean to be that way with the rest of you in any way shape or form.

"If everyone agrees, then someone is not thinking"

MyReality
Jul. 12, 2006, 04:53 PM
I don't tie my horse for hours, period. I don't tie any horse for hours, whether he is dressage or not. Dressage shows I enter, my classes are usually back to back so the longest I have to wait is perhaps a couple of hours when the classes are huge. But then I walk around the ground with my horse, taking in the scenary or let him eat some grass and stretch his legs. I never leave him unattended. When we get in the ring, he is totally focused.

That's how I like to prep my horse.

It is a common practice to tie the horses at a show or a polo match or what not. It's ok when done safely. It depends on the job of the horse mostly. If there is a need, you must practice at home.

But saying a person is a DQ if she doesn't like to tie a horse up. Give me a break. It's like people calling me a DQ if I won't school my horse on bad footing. There is no award for schooling on bad footing by the way. Let's all ride on bad footing with hackamores, hack on roads jump some gates, then tie the horse up for hours just to proof our horses could put up with anything, we are 'down to earth', we are brave and carefree... I call that trailer trash attitude.

So there are all the Trail people coming to the dressage board to tell us how to do dressage, and what dressage means? Give me a fricking break. I need a 'smillie' that shows me rolling my eyes to the back of my head.

I don't know who this fancy PI person is. I know nobody in this industry who train a horse to piaffe and passage, compete at GP level AND do comepetitive trails. (I do know somebody who do GP and bull fighting though, obvsiouely not on the same horse) If there is, let me know who you are and let me see you ride a reasonable GP test... really, I want to see those tempi changes and piaffe/passage transitions... I do personally know people who trains/compete at the GP level and none of them has this crazy attitude. I mean you were schooling piaffe to passage transitions one day... then next day you check your horse into a long distance thingy? You've got to be kidding me... I know absolutely nobody who will do that.

People who specialize in dressage have horses in training and competition, and teaching schedule... I would be surprised they would be able to find time to cross train.... not that they won't ask a working student to gallop their horses in the woods to open them up. If you ask me, I couldn't even ride in saddles other than a dressage saddle (and a dressage saddle that works too... not just any dressage looking saddle).

This is not to say people who do competitive trails have no right to learn dressage... or vice versa.

Obviousely PI has an Arab and taking him to CTR it's like bringing a duck to water. PI, you've got to know that, don't you? And you've got to be kidding me that you think others should follow your great footstep. Don't get me wrong, I hack my horse too but kill me if he only does dressage, because that's what I'm good at and he is good at?

slc2
Jul. 12, 2006, 05:04 PM
"i'm not sure the term Schizophrenia is in use any more (in England)"

most definitely is used. it's a neurological/psychiatric disorder, and is given the same name and diagnostic criteria in just about every country in the world today. most countries use either the DSM-IVR or the ICD diagnostic systems - both have it as a diagnosis.

to try to insult someone who disagrees with you about tying up a horse by accusing them of having a neurological/psychiatric disorder is the most rude, juvenile thing i've heard here - and it reflects very poorly on PI. very poorly. when someone says something like that, i am done listening to them.

fiona
Jul. 12, 2006, 05:31 PM
T2000
I don't have preconcieved ideas of endurance riding being wrong or bad for the horses it just doesn't interest me to take part. We have the famous Golden Horseshoe ride here and i've been in the UAE during their endurance races so i know the horses CAN do it i just don't want to! I had a job leading 12 hour trail rides when i was 18 been there done it just not interested think my horses and me are ok leaving it out the schedule. You go ahead, post pictures i'll be happy trailing vicariously! I think it would be too much to ask my horses to give more than one career but that's more a superstition than a scientifically founded decision, like not putting too many things on a xmas wish list. I'm not trying to make anyone copy my journey there are a lot of roads to Rome and not everyone wants to go there anyhow.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 05:53 PM
I don't know who this fancy PI person is. I know nobody in this industry who train a horse to piaffe and passage, compete at GP level AND do comepetitive trails.

Ahh there you go reading into my posts again. I never said I was competing at GP. I would guess neither are you...or anyone else who thinks a Grand Prix Horse cant hack out on the trails.

I will compete on this little filly soon though.

I will gladly show you the piaffe/passage transitions if you like. And yes I can teach them that and ride it on the trails too. I have been very blessed with great people to learn from. Remember I never said I was a Pro Trainer just like to play with my ponies.

If you learned from a source other than your friends at the barn you would know all the masters (save Baucher) hacked their Dressage Horses just fine.

It is actually good for them not only physically but mentally and emotionally as well.

So do we have a bet?

Hey I got a fun bet..I bet you I can get my horse to Piaffe with me not even on her. No reins or long lines...

Each and every law/rule for Piaffe will be fulfilled. She will step underneath herself, raise and flex AT THE POLL, lower her haunches and her head will be on the vertical. Steady Rythym and completly Controlled Impulsion and I bet even with me not on her it would score a 7 in a GP test?

AND IT will be better than your horses Piaffe with you riding?

I am going to be out of town for a couple of weeks on assignment when I get back I will film it for you if what your willing to bet is good enough....

What do ya say? How much you willing to put up for the bet?


See MyReality Reality is not static.... its dynamic. There is no such thing as Reality, only perception. Your reality changes as does anyones and two peoples realities are seldom the same...Your reality is limited by what you know or believe. Hence its not only perception, but selective perception.

So in your reality what I just proposed cant be done. It is impossible or must be some "trick" or hoax.

etk
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:03 PM
As far as Sabine goes she goes around here barking at everyone and being snotty. This time she barked at the wrong dog.


Funny how folks perceive things differently. I didn't think Sabine barked at anyone or was snotty, she just voiced a passionate, concerned & different opinion from yours (and mine) - and there was no need to go off on her because of that. How boring would it be if we all agreed with you about everything. Some dogs are a bit volatile, I guess. Me, I'm more of a blase bitch. lol

Sabine
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:10 PM
As far as Sabine goes she goes around here barking at everyone and being snotty. This time she barked at the wrong dog.




Big chip on your shoulder little man...maybe it's the little man syndrome>>>:::??? anyway- done talking with you- the beauty of this board is that everyone can post...even dogs...:)

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:28 PM
Honey you better feel again..


OUCH... now that was uncalled for! I am going to moderate myself now.

Yeah thats the beauty of this board. Even you can run around and act like you know something.

So you never answered where your husband does his exhibitions. I might even know him!

Its a small world, even smaller in the exhibition world.

David Jay isnt married that I know of, so that would rule out Medieval Times in California.

Sandy M
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:31 PM
[QUOTE=MyReality]I don't tie my horse for hours, period. I don't tie any horse for hours, whether he is dressage or not. Dressage shows I enter, my classes are usually back to back so the longest I have to wait is perhaps a couple of hours when the classes are huge.

>>>>>>> Lucky you. I've had rides at one-day shows scheduled many hours (up to 6) apart to accommodate "upper level" riders so they can show by mid-day and go home! (I - poor middle class pleb that I am - was showing 2nd level). I sure don't stay on my horse all that time, he (gasp!) stays tied to the trailer. I was always instructed by my old eventing trainer to "not treat my horse like a couch" and to GET OFF and let him rest between classes. My previous horse stayed tied to the trailer, on days when he did one-day events - dressage in the AM, cross-country mid-day, stadium late afternoon. Tied to the trailer in between. You mean I should have kept him walking ALL DAY? (no stalls available) Obviously, if one has a stallion (because he may be well behaved, but you can't count on the same from other people/other people's horses or some hyper horse (that needs to be schooled on being tied, among other things????), one may want to stall rather than tie - no point taking unnecessary risks. But if there is no choice?? Horses - should - know - how - to - tie, no matter what their job is. It is part of being trained. And as far as trail riding (or even competitive trail, which is NOT an endurance contest), to quote Podjahsky (possibly somewhat paraphrased): "Riding out of doors and across country is the proof that the training in the arena is correct."

I know nobody in this industry who train a horse to piaffe and passage, compete at GP level AND do comepetitive trails.

>>>>>> Certainly they don't do competitive trail, but Hilda Gurney, among others, has her horses hacked out on the trails, and talk about cross-training, Christopher Bartle often trained his horses to Advanced Level eventing and THEN converted them to FEI level dressage (presumably if they were doing advanced, they were 3rd/4th level in their dressage schooling).

>>>>>>My horse is 2nd level, schooling 3rd. That's probably as far as he's going to go, since I turned him to dressage after some years as a H/J, low level eventer, all purpose horse. One trainer told me that had I started him seriously into dressage sooner, he seemed capable of PSG. Physically, he's old enough now that while sound, it's unlikely I will push him that far. Whatever. Lost dreams. However, he has always been well mannered, knows how to tie, does obstacle trail rides (like "trail horses classes" in a horse show, but natural obstacle rides over open country). With a kid, he will plunk along like a pony, with an experienced rider, he will collect and do half-pass, other lateral work, jump small fences, etc.

>>>>>>I just find it hard to grasp the concept of a "trained" horse that does not TIE reliably, anymore than one that does not load in a trailer without incident. It's all part of being well trained and well mannered. that doesn't mean "tie and forget about," but it also doesn't mean standing there every minute with bated breath lest something "upset" him.


People who specialize in dressage have horses in training and competition, and teaching schedule... I would be surprised they would be able to find time to cross train.... not that they won't ask a working student to gallop their horses in the woods to open them up. If you ask me, I couldn't even ride in saddles other than a dressage saddle (and a dressage saddle that works too... not just any dressage looking saddle).

>>>>>> I was not aware that one could only do dressage in a dressage saddle. Certainly, a good saddle that fits the horse and the rider is of great importance, but I can "do dressage" in a friend's close-contact Crates western saddle, and I have a forward seat saddle for jumping and trails, as well as my dressage saddle. If I "couldn't ride in anything but a dressage saddle," I would think that I needed some lessons. That one may PREFER to ride in a dressage saddle is fine, but hardly a prerequisite for being able to ride correctly.

grass is greener
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:31 PM
I'd say PI should cut his first name which would make him, quite simply, Incorrect.

If you want to know where sabine's fellow trains his Andies, how about showing us your website or some pics on PhotoBucket or some similar space? Anything at all to prove your, umm, credentials. No fair asking for personal stuff without giving your own, big guy.

mbm
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:32 PM
what an interesting discussion! its quite enlightening when those that dish it out cant take it.

i have been pondering what folks see/read here once they have blocked everyone that doesnt agree with them.... it is a VERY strange concept to me.... you would only be reading part of a conversation.... hmmmmm.....

anyway, carry on....

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:32 PM
Some dogs are a bit volatile, I guess. Me, I'm more of a blase bitch. lol"


roflmao....That was good!

Its ok to disagree, Sabine and Co. want to start lynching anyone who disagrees with them. They are the EXPERTS you know.

So thats it Sabine? Just I am done talking? Somebody double check this but according to my calculations it took 11 pages for Sabine to shut up. At least now we have something to guage future discussions with her by.

Thank God I was getting tired....Ok who had page 11 in the pot we had running.....?????

Karoline
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:39 PM
And for anyone who thinks I may be Politically Incorrect, I am not. Though I could see how there are some similarities I do not have an ounce of that posters talent for steering s&**( or their training abilities.

And I am a carrot lady. Trough and through :-)

kkj
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:41 PM
PI I would love to see video clips of your horse doing the piaffe at liberty or at your command or whatever. I would also really like to see the piaffe passage transitions. And I would love to see the tricks Spanish Walk, bowing all of it. It would kind of be like Cavalia for free and I think it would be very cool.

I am not challenging you. I would just love to see it.

I don't want to make a bet or anything, but I would love to see it.

Also whether or not you consider yourself a horsetrainer, if you started 30 horses last year you are a very busy horse trainer by most people definitions. That would be a ton of work and unless you are independently quite wealthy, I hope someone is paying you for that work.

kkj
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:44 PM
Karoline what exactly is a carrot lady? It brings up visions (for me) of someone who bribes their horse to do everything with carrots. I guess I am guilty a little of that. I always give my horse a carrot when I wash her face. Or someone who uses one of those natural horsemanship flag carrot stick things. Is that it?

sidepasser
Jul. 12, 2006, 06:49 PM
To the poster who asked (sorry took so long to get back to you I was working) what level the Arab won at: -

The Arab who won the Perpetual Trophy at PB competed at I-1 level. I do not know if he competed any further up as that is all the information I have, but I am sure that if anyone has a way to "see" the results posted, you can look for his name: OKW Entrigue, Arabian Stallion, and he competed on Thursday and Friday. That little horse looks happy! He is focused, bright eyed, with a presence about him. Danged if I didn't know better, I'd say he and his rider are ENJOYING themselves...lol.

I am sure that there will be some who will say "well that isn't anything", blah..but it is something. It is to his rider and to the horse that took her there. It is to me because it shows that an arabian can do more than endurance ride. I know some are out there competing in dressage, but how many get to a high level at a serious competition?

I am posting this myself, his owner nor his rider do not know me from Adam's housecat. The reason I am posting it is plain: when one states a broad generalization about a breed, that statement can and often does come back to bite one on the butt. Plain and simple.

I am not knocking WBs, TBS, Draft crosses or any breed. I am not saying that this horse is better than those horse breeds. What I am saying is: Never say NEVER cause someone, sometime, will come along and prove you wrong. I look at this arab as the horse that wants to and will. One day he will shine at the highest levels because he loves his work, it shows in his expression. Ears up, eyes sparkling. There is no tail wringing, no sour expression with ears back and lip poked out. I'd appreciate it that in any WB, TB or Andulasian or Lusitano, etc. This one just happens to be an ARAB.

So I would appreciate if just once, (i know it will be hard, but bear with me and I'll buy you a beer if we ever happen to meet, which we might if you are a member of the GA. Cothers) - people here don't put down the little Arab. He's a wonderful horse and deserves the same accolades that other breeds get.

Thank you and off to feed my many dressage/event/loafer/retirees
Sidepasser

Karoline
Jul. 12, 2006, 07:19 PM
Karoline what exactly is a carrot lady? It brings up visions (for me) of someone who bribes their horse to do everything with carrots. I guess I am guilty a little of that. I always give my horse a carrot when I wash her face. Or someone who uses one of those natural horsemanship flag carrot stick things. Is that it?

Hello kkj, I never use the word bribe - though my old fashioned trainer has thrown it at me more then few times.

I go through 5lb of carrots every other days per horse. First of all, carrots are good for them...second of all, I like giving them something they like.

When do they get them:

With my grumpy gelding. A piece after each feet is offered and clean.
With my mare: a piece after all feet are done

A piece after they have taken the briddle.
A piece on the right/left after I have mounted

A moutain of carrots after I dismount and they are being pampered.

And a mountain more in their supplements mix every day.

Now, I have learned a few thing:

1- I dont use carrost to lead
2- I dont use carrots to get in the trailer - though once they are all tucked in they may get one.
3 - I dont use carrots holding for the farrier
4 - I dont use carrots holding for the vet

Mostly, I give carrots when my horse is doing something hard for them as a reward, and then as an I love you treat.

It makes my trainer mad BUT: I never give treats when I call my horses over, yet they gallop over. So, its not bribery, its just the joy of giving.

But I know loads of cowboys, or old fashion, new fashion trainers who disagree with even the idea of treats. Whatever works for them. My horses, they have 20/20 eyesight (carotene good for that) :-)

BornToRide
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:16 PM
Uhm, do you guys mind if I ride your horses while you are all tied up here?? Cause I'd love to use my good time for that :D

mzpeepers
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:21 PM
Uhm, do you guys mind if I ride your horses while you are all tied up here?? Cause I'd love to use my good time for that :D

BTR you got it all wrong! It is the horses who are tied up!
No wait....they aren't because it's cruel and unusual....
No...I think some are tied and some are too good for it....
Wait...the ones who aren't tied are getting carrots?
Oh heck...I'm all confused now.....
:lol: :lol: :lol:

BornToRide
Jul. 12, 2006, 08:42 PM
Oh, you're so tied up girl :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sabine
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:27 AM
BTR you got it all wrong! It is the horses who are tied up!
No wait....they aren't because it's cruel and unusual....
No...I think some are tied and some are too good for it....
Wait...the ones who aren't tied are getting carrots?
Oh heck...I'm all confused now.....
:lol: :lol: :lol:


Jeez peeps- I feel all cozy around you now- yes- I don't tie my horses- let them run free and feed them carrots all day- plus I ride a motor cycle and gaze at my horses- who perform passage and piaffe and spanish walk in the pasture- while nibbling on carrots...and if they ever die - I revive them quickly...with magic words and gibberish...

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:26 AM
First the Disclaimer....

I would like to make it very clear I do not consider myself a horse trainer. What little I have learned so far and what my horses know is due to the fact that there are some wonderful and very talented trainers who have blessed me by teaching me.

I didnt start 30 horses in one year it was over the last couple almost 3 years. I do it for fun because I want to learn as much as I can about horses. For the most part I do it without charge. One I get people owing me favors and two I cant afford 30 horses so this way I can get experience without it costing me more than a bruised Ego, and a few bumps and scratches when theories dont play out exactly as planned.

I normally would give the list of names of who I learned from, but seeing as how I just pissed off about half the board here....... I figure they will be ok with me not mentioning them this one time....:D

As you can see by the pictures back then I didnt even have sand down yet, so I used old piles of hay and carpet laid over it. It goes without saying I am not independently wealthy or even dependently wealthy. Is there such a thing as dependently wealthy? Ahh yes..the Dressage Gigolos who take the carrot ladies money!....:lol: AND ANNA NICOLE SMITH!

Now as I said I have been very blessed in being able to learn from great trainers when it comes to training horses. Be it Exhibition or Dressage which to me can be the same. Some of the top liberty, trick, circus trainers in the world I call friends.

Olympic Coaches and riders I also call friends, and can I call/email them anytime I am having a problem.I even have a handful of Old Timers (real Cowboys) who will help me whenever I ask. These men I learned the most from when it came to what makes a horse tick. With the knowledge they gave me I am able to absorb the other methods.

Most Dressage folks could do well learning some from some of the Old Cowboys. These men are not rough, or beat horses. Quite the opposite, they revere horses, have lived horses and willl die on a horse... if they have their way. They are a dying breed, and their knowledge is dying with them. So dont write off the old guy in cowboy boots.

THE ONLY THING I WILL TAKE CREDIT FOR IS KNOWING HOW TO FIND GOOD PEOPLE TO LEARN FROM....nay GREAT PEOPLE

Only in the last couple of years have I realized just how bad my riding was/is and have been working on it since. I had so much more on a horse before I knew I couldnt really ride.

Sure I could stay on anything, do anything...polo, shoot, rope, trail, jump whatever but it was all self taught when I was a kid, riding horses that I nor anyone else had any business on...and I have lots of bad habits. Add to that a health condition and well I sort of Jimmy Rigged my riding together.

I have super glue butt though. That I can thank those rank horses in my preteen years for. They are also the reason I have such a hard time keeping my heel out of the stirrups.

I am no expert, just a horse lover. I am repeating that because somehow whatever I write gets changed into something else.

But I bet I can outride Sabine!.... OK that was cheap...

I blurred my face for now, I want the focus on the horses, not my incredible good looks....:lol: You have to wait for the video for that....


I have helped competitive riders with Piaffe and Passage and I am OK at it, getting better with each horse, but Piaffe and Passage were taught to me by several different trainers each one as good or better than the other and each with different methods. So its kind of a fun one for me. Again I would mention their names but someone here would tell them I was being mean and then mentioned their name and then I would get a lecture for not behaving...


So we understand I take neither credit NOR blame for my horses training. I didnt invent any of it. I was taught it by very generous people. I hope to keep learning and keep getting better and one day I might just be a trainer too.

For now I will put up some pics and a couple of short clips I have on my laptop that were taken on a cell phone. The videos are too illustrate just how bombproof my horses are.


The girls on the pedestal were not even weanlings then, the one I still have is now Three and a half and she will be my "Competition" horse..she was waving hello and I took the picture late. It was hard because I was the only one there and working them while I took the pictures...
IF I had to say a level he is at its 3rd level. Shoulder, haunches in/out, half pass, working, medium, collected(as much as you can be at third level) trot/canter. Canter departs and three tempes....also known as Broke for Trail riding..

Of course he can do Spanish Walk, give kisses, wave hello, bow, kneel, lay down, sit up, sit down, hi ho silver/balanced rear/pessade whatever you want to call it. Works at liberty etc...AKA FUN GROUND WORK...A young girl at the barn wants to compete on him so I will let you know how he does.

I dont compete because those outfits look silly to me and there is no way I am getting up at 6 a.m. to groom my horse for a show. Maybe if they had night shows with cooler outfits! I put one of those outfits on once. I felt like I was supposed to saw a lady in half, make something disappear or something along those lines.

Now PAY ATTENTION HERE...This horse IS NO DEADHEAD. I would go so far as to say most people couldnt handle him out in the open. Not that he is spooky you just cant "ride his mouth" If you he gets goofy and you get in his mouth he gets goofier. He will accept contact well, just not any kind of Jerking etc..Soft hands a strong seat and talk with your legs....You just have to put his mind to work. Which is really the only reason he is so good at lateral stuff.

I will put a little video together when I get back home that will show my horses better. You will have to wait for that but maybe I can do two horses performing piaffe next to each other while I stand next to them...

Ok here is the first link....see now this is Bombproof.

Under the video screen its says view box with a box that says 480 in front of it. Click on that little arrow and reset it it 320 so the video is clearer.

Thats a runway made out of Plexiglas, and yes its in a nightclub....So you see a burger king drive thru is child’s play, is not such a big deal for my horses, or any horses that have been exposed/conditioned correctly.


http://media.putfile.com/Now-thats-Bombproof

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:41 AM
Click here to watch Now-thats-Bombproof (http://media.putfile.com/Now-thats-Bombproof)

Under the video screen its says view box with a box that says 480 in front of it. Click on that little arrow and reset it it 320 so the video is clearer.

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:36 AM
First the Disclaimer....
I would like to make it very clear I do not consider myself a horse trainer.
Don't worry, me neither.

Only in the last couple of years have I realized just how bad my riding was/is
Really? i got that on your first post.

I dont compete because those outfits look silly to me
Trust me you don't need an outfit to look silly.

The above comments ARE cheap but the redeeming factor is they're funny and true whereas

But I bet I can outride Sabine!....
is just cheap and from my certain knowledge highly unlikely.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:45 AM
Did you see the clip....Now do you believe me when I say my horses are better trained than most?

http://media.putfile.com/And-A-tight-turn-to-boot

That was our first time in a night club on a runway and that was the practice run....The real run was even louder and crazier. IF my horse was unsure he would just look to me for reassurance. Thats how they are trained. To trust and put their heart in our hands. My horses know I will not hurt them...

You can take any horse on my place into any envoiroment. A silly dog is not gonna set them off I assure you.... or a baby stroller for that matter......So how is it my horses can do that and Sabine's horses cant be tied?


Unless her last name is Schutt-Kerry I will stand by my statements...

So Fiona did you watch the clip or just spewing for the sake of it?

You can still think I am a butthead, but you cant say my horses cant do what I say they can do!

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19300403582.jpg&s=f10

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 03:03 AM
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19300323943.jpg&s=f10

no I didnt catch him laying down. He is barely THREE MONTHS OLD in this picture and laying down on cue was already old hat to him.

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19300372260.jpg&s=f10

Both of these girls would work responsibly and safely at liberty before they were weaned. Of course they were young. At this age we only ask for basics. walk left, walk right, turn, come here and get on your place..oh and lay down.

We dont halter break any foals. After playing with them for the first few months you just put on a halter and go. There is no fighting. They are taught to give to the slightest pressure. Standing tied is not a big thing either. Its a GIVEN.

Now you can only imagine how fast they move up thru the "levels" when they are started under saddle. Pressure? No big deal.....Mental and emotionally they are leaps and bounds ahead of any horses their age. So all we have to do is wait till they are physically ready and then communicate what we want them to do....and BAM! Whattya know they dont stress, or colic from stress, get ulcers, worry, blow up, or do anything most horses do.


OK Fiona, now you go get your horses and take some pictures...Then I will post videos of Piaffe and Passage with me not even on the horse..Deal?

If I remember correctly you are a Professional Trainer...So lets see what you can teach your horses to do.

Heck you just post a pic of you on any horse doing a Piaffe and I will post the videos for everyone when I get back...

http://f10.putfile.com/thumb/7/19300390935.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19300390935.jpg&s=f10)

http://f10.putfile.com/thumb/7/19300414943.jpg (http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19300414943.jpg&s=f10)

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 03:06 AM
Yes i watched your clip, even at 320 the clarity is very poor but cute pony. Why where you in a nightclub? was it a fashion show or something? And the trick picture is cute too.


You can still think I am a butthead, but you cant say my horses cant do what I say they can do!


I never said your horses couldn't do what you said they could. I did say your posts come across as unneccessarily mean disrespectful and spiteful and i'll add don't demonstrate a sense of humour.

Got any riding pictures?

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 03:16 AM
OK Fiona, now you go get your horses and take some pictures...Then I will post videos of Piaffe and Passage with me not even on the horse..Deal?

If I remember correctly you are a Professional Trainer...So lets see what you can teach your horses to do.



You see, there you go again...picking a fight with someone! what is up with you? I called you on disrespecting those with mental illness which i thought was pretty low and unnecessary and on fighting between horse disciplines for no reason. What is your problem? And no i'm not going to escalate this "my horse does better tricks than your horse" spat by creating a photo war!

The 2 coloured horses are very endearing and i'm sure handling them so much makes them very trainable later. Good for you.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 03:31 AM
Fiona....Come on now...You picked this fight I didnt. See your post insulting me or trying too or whatever you were doing...


I never called anything that my horses were doing in those pictures tricks...They are prerequisite MOVEMENTS for Circensic Dressage training, which of course you dont know the definition of........so we will just skip that.

The Bi Polar Schizzo observation I made was 5 pages ago. You still harping on that? Geez dont take things so personally. Read my Screen Name...Politically Incorrect.

I was in no way insulting or making fun of people who suffer from any form of mental illness... AND if I had made a comment about physical impairments...well I have been in a wheelchair twice in the last 9 years and had to learn to walk again twice... so according to the laws of the universe its ok.

Kind of like a black guy can say the N word but a white guy cant.

Just to clear it up.... I was insulting Sabine, no one else. So Fionna.....I am sorry, I did not mean it in a derrogatory way to you. Can we move past the remarks I made about nutcases?

I will gladly post pics of me riding, as if that has anything to do with this. I will even do it with no bridle and while my horse executes Piaffe.

I claimed my horses were able to handle just about any envioroment you can imagine and I think the videos proved that.

Then I said my horses were well mannered and extremely well behaved. I think the pictures proved that...

You want to come ride them??

But ok..... I want to see your Pictures of your horses doing anything other than 3rd level or below. Deal?

Cute pony??Thats an Arabian honey... not a pony.

Poor Clarity? Can you not read? I said I had someone take the video with their cell phone.

And no it wasnt a fashion show.... well not a real fashion show. It was for a National Commercial...You think Burger King has boogers that will scare a horse. Go work on some movie sets. I wanted to see my horses on TV....7 different commercials and I was done with that...Its BORING work. I turned down two movie (independent) deals and a commercial for USA networks since then.

Riding the Urban Trails is much more fun than being on TV.

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 04:12 AM
Fiona....Come on now...You picked this fight I didnt. See your post insulting me or trying too or whatever you were doing...

I was doing cheap laughs as oppose to cheap shots. It's funner.


Just to clear it up.... I was insulting Sabine, nice. glad we got that straight!


Circensic Dressage training, which of course you dont know the definition of........
You're right there i have never heard of it, what is it? I like circus work i worked as bit with one of Freddy Knie's horses he was a very clever man.


Cute pony??Thats an Arabian honey... not a pony.

Poor Clarity? Can you not read? I said I had someone take the video with their cell phone.

yes, and because it's so distorted the person leading looks much taller than the horse so i assumed it was a pony.

kkj
Jul. 13, 2006, 07:47 AM
This was fun to wake up to. I love the picture of your horse sitting. If I could teach my horse that I could get some sweet XMas card pictures.

And yes without a whole lot of Ace, my horse would not be cool with walking down a runway with all that commotion. My first shetland pony is probably the only horse I have every owned that would have been cool with that (and he was like 35 when I got him)

I still think you are like the Man From Snowy River, Urban Cowboy, Circus Trainer, Stunt man type. This is how I picture you. Not meant to be insulting but if you jump your arab over 4 foot solid objects on the trail, get them to perform in TV commercials and can get him to piaffe at liberty, that is how I picture you. Don't be insulted. It means you are a horseperson and a rare breed at that. Have to say in my lifetime around horses, I have never met anyone like you. I don't have any idea of how well you ride or what your issues are but I respect you ability to work with your horses.

I don't understand why you are compelled to attack Sabine. I don't know her but would not be surprised if she is a great dressage rider.

I don't know if you are aware of how you come off or if you don't care because you are politically incorrect or what. I think if you had just come on the board and said, "Hey I can get my horse to do a, b and c wanna see?" a lot of us (me at least) would have been like, "cool show me the pics". I respect all kinds of riders and horsepeople from all disciplines and love to see something new. I do want to see your horse piaffe.

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 08:12 AM
Yeah, what she said.

Lambie Boat
Jul. 13, 2006, 08:17 AM
Ah p.i....
just when I was starting to think you were a little humble, felt a little something about the wheelchair thing, laughed at your jokes ...ok, the john travolta thing was funny.....you started digging yourself into a deep, deep, deeper hole. You still don't 'get it' and I'm sorry.

An Olympic piaffe and passage is not the same as a circus piaffe & passage.
Not the same movement either without a rider. In fact, dressage types use the term CIRCUS as a derisive term. that is, being held in contempt or ridicule.

And about Sabine, do you know her and her horses personally? Or you just have a big hard-on for her because her posts rub you the wrong way? Obviously you are a man that likes to escalate and be argumentative, and I would guess you are also Republican and divorced (many times?)

At any rate, I'm glad you are having fun with your cute horses and you are not trapping them in the dressage court grinding away 24/7. It is impressive that they can stand on a box, shake paws, beg for table scraps and bark on demand. But am I the only one who finds the pix of a foot on the chest of a young one on it's back very disturbing? Leave the horsie a shred of self respect, even if you can't for yourself. Anyway, it's been entertaining but I've run out of popcorn and beer so toodleooooooo :cool:

North Dakota
Jul. 13, 2006, 09:28 AM
I think a horse needs to know how to tie, i spent 1.5 years working with my gelding to be sure he could tie. it is important for me that he can, because if we are at a show and i don't have a stall, i can't exactly drag him to the bathroom with me:D someone is almost always there when he is tied, once in awhile i will have to leave him to walk a course but i usually ask someone i know to check on him. when he is tied i tie his hay net up, and he is very content. I'm getting a new horse and she will also need to learn how to tie.

ise@ssl
Jul. 13, 2006, 10:04 AM
What hooey - that a horse won't trailer well if it can't be tied to the outside of the trailer.......that's ridiculous.

Our horses travel fine - and they stay in the trailer at shows or whatever - unless we have rented a stall. I would NEVER tie any of our horses to the outside of a trailer at a show and leave them. There are too many ignorant oblivous people at shows who have NO KNOWLEDGE of true horsemanship - as well as those "free spirited dogs and kids" who irritate the crap out of all of us and make a point to create problems.

If any of you have ever seen a horse break it's neck - you'd stop with this bullsh** about tying horses to trees or poles or whatever for hours.

And to those on here who recommend tying the head high - you must be totally ignorant of studies showing how damaging this is to horses airwaves. They now recommend that you make sure - especially when trailering - that you clip to the high rings on the halter not the ones by their nose so they can move their heads around. Do some research on the atlas-axis of the horse's poll and then you might see how recommending this tie high and forever concept may be the root of other problems your horse may have NOW or in the future. ...that is if some freak incident doesn't kill him.

And I love the concept of having a KNIFE handy in case you have to cut the nylon halter - obviously this person has had a freak out situation with a horse in that situation. Are strangers supposed to "pack knives" so they can cut panicing horses loose from trailers at horse shows? or just watch them break their necks?

And I could care less what breed the horse is - I'd never leave a tied horse un-attended - it's not true horsemanship.

mzpeepers
Jul. 13, 2006, 10:26 AM
Jeez peeps- I feel all cozy around you now- yes- I don't tie my horses- let them run free and feed them carrots all day- plus I ride a motor cycle and gaze at my horses- who perform passage and piaffe and spanish walk in the pasture- while nibbling on carrots...and if they ever die - I revive them quickly...with magic words and gibberish...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You MUST give me the secret to the reviving cerimony!!! Oh....the possibilities......:D

This thread has gotten ugly enough. Let's lighten up, shall we? Even though there were things said that were hurtful and mean, let's try to put a fun spin on things. this is after all a BB board not real life.

Sandy M
Jul. 13, 2006, 10:27 AM
In fact, dressage types use the term CIRCUS as a derisive term. that is, being held in contempt or ridicule.
A

While I'm sure that's true in some instances, I doubt Tina Konyot would appreciate that remark. Her family is/was heavily involved in dressage/circuses, and yet, wonder of wonders, she's done quite well in the competitive dressage world.

nhwr
Jul. 13, 2006, 10:50 AM
I know you have a hard time thinking things through, ise, so I just thought I'd point this out.

If you ever have to cut a horse loose that is tied, you'd never cut the halter. That would be extremely dangerous. You'd probably get injured yourself or injure the horse. You should cut the rope that the horse is tied with that way you have a way to restrain the horse. Thankfully I have never had to do this or seen a horse break its neck because by the time my horses are tying this way, they are pretty well trained to yield to pressure at the poll. But since the horse's safety is always my first concern, I have thought it through.

Also leaving a horse inside a stationary trailer for hours isn't really a very good idea in some parts of the world (like where I live). Without the circulating air caused by movement, they because like ovens. Much better to take the horse out.

As I said earlier, the real goal of this exercise for me is to develop some ability in the horse to pacify themselves and to foster self assurance. If a horse has these qualities, they are much less likely to have a problem when tied in the first place. If you aren't interested in these qualities, feel free to dismiss it as a method :)

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 10:54 AM
this is after all a BB board not real life.

Eeeuuuw! Didya have to blurt that out so sudden??? It came as a terrible shock!

mzpeepers
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:00 AM
Eeeuuuw! Didya have to blurt that out so sudden??? It came as a terrible shock!


Oh no!!!! I'm sorry!!!!

Sabine, quick!!!! Where is that reviving cerimony for pete's sake? Fiona here needs some help!!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

BornToRide
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:20 AM
I'm a little puzzled by one thing though.....I understand that horses can spook and pull back, but the handler better be able to get through to them when they call out "Whoa". If you have a horse that does not respond to verbal cues that you got even more problems that should be addressd, not just tying..........to me a horse that totally looses it simply is not a safe horse to be around. Horses are reactive, but they also have some sensibility or they would not survive. I know that in some cases it can be diet related - they are just pinging out of their brains from too much energy. In such a cases you may just be out of luck......:(

MyReality
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:24 AM
By the way, I said many times I hack my horse. Hacking is great for a horse. Competitive trail riding do mix with dressage. I never say those two things don't mix. I am saying, someone who trains at the GP level don't usually do competitive trails, i.e. my point is don't brag how to do high school dressage if that's really not your specialty. We're all here to learn from each other.

No I want to see PI ride a GP dressage test. Not tricks, no disco music. An honest GP level dressage test complete with tempi changes, canter piroutes, piaffe, passage, extended trot etc etc. I am not saying he can't do it, I want to see it because this world is not that big, a rider and horse with such talent and operating at that level I should be able to find out who he is no problem. This dressage world is not that big.

I don't fricking care if a horse could juggle 3 apples standing on his two front legs. That's not my discipline, sorry. They should open a circus/trick training forum here. And I say it in all honesty because it is a very valid discipline. To teach horses do tricks, is a specialised skill... people should get together to share tips and exchange ideas.

Dressage people are humble usually... because we know how hard it is, how long it takes, and what a journey it is. And all those specific things we ask for, like correct tack good footing we insist because true, some of us are a bit of perfectionist. We share similar visions. I don't know any loud mouth in this industry even those at the very top representing their country in the Olympics and officially earn the right to be loud.

BornToRide
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:31 AM
So you are saying that cross training is generally not a good idea because of what? Potential injury to the GP horse? :confused:

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:37 AM
I don't fricking care if a horse could juggle 3 apples standing on his two front legs.
... but if i saw it i'd be awfully impressed.

They should open a circus....here
You mean this isn't the circus? my, this is turning into one horrible day i had no idea.

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:40 AM
So you are saying that cross training is generally not a good idea because of what? Potential injury to the GP horse?

In all seriousness i'd have a pretty hard time explaining to my vet and my owners how their horse got injured on a CTR or standing on a pedestal! They'd be livid!

BornToRide
Jul. 13, 2006, 11:50 AM
I was more thinking in terms of owners doing the CT....I can certainly see your concern from a trainer's perspective.....

bjrudq
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:46 PM
"Dressage people are humble usually"

you have GOT to be kidding!

sabine and p.i.-you deserve each other!

ise@ssl
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:52 PM
nhwr - if it's too hot to leave your horses in a trailer with the windows, doors open - then you feel it's better to tie them to the side of the trailer in the heat? This is ridiculous.

So your horses are fine as soon as they feel pressure on the poll - well there are always those horrible situations at shows where something insane happens - loose horses or whatever and YOUR horse's ability to survive might depend on NOT being tied to a trailer.

DO IT IF YOU WANT. One dead horse will change your minds and it DOES HAPPEN.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 12:55 PM
First off KKJ- It was not my intent to post pictures of my horses.
The video clip and pictures were posted to prove my horses are well behaved and to show what kind of surroundings my horses are capable of handling. Hence I am not a yahoo twit who has to ride his horse because he doesnt have a car. Though I shouldnt have to prove it as I said from the beginning I am not a trainer, just a horse lover.

The ones who seemed the most out to argue are apparently intstructors....

I have the OPTION of riding my horse to Burger King, which obviously some people here dont........

Now to the next silly argument that Circus and Dressage are not the same etc.......I will just end this in one swift blow.


Its a common misconception that people who are not/have little education in Dressage seem to cling too. Generally these are the same people who are stuck in the lower levels all their life. Whether they compete or not, these are the people who never get Piaffe unless they buy it because they will not expand their horizons.

I dont have a lot of time today but I will touch on the highlights for you...

Your horse doesnt differentiate between a bow and half pass. Yes certain movments require more strength and conditioning/acquired balance but in horse terms you ask they do you reward. Removal of aids is a reward.

Dressage Trainers(real ones) - are more aware of balance both for themeselves and the horse and try to be aware of the physical aspect of horse training...i.e physical conditioning..

Old Timers/Real Cowboys-Are probably the best hands down at understanding the horse mentally.

Circus Trainers-Can ask the questions in a way that is easy for the horse to understand.

Why limit yourself and your horses?

As for those of you who are saying what does Circus Tricks have to
do with Dressage? BIG Grins...Some of the greatest Dressage riders
both present and past performed or learned from "Circus/Trick"
trainers.

Ever heard of Chuck Grant? Considered the "Father of American Dressage"

Chuck Grant is in the USDF Hall of Fame. Trained 17 horses to Grand
Prix and competed them as well. More than any other American as far
as I know. This could have changed recently, but one thing for sure.
I am fairly sure that no ther trainer took such a variety of breeds
to Grand Prix. Appaloosa, Connemera Pony, Arabs and quite a few
Saddlebred and Saddlebred Crosses. From what I have heard the
Saddlebred crosses were his favorite. These were also the same
horses he did his Exhibitions/"tricks" with. Imagine that!

"For ten years, from 1969 to 1979, Grant led an exhibition troupe, the Horse Capades, which included some of his advanced students. Performing classical and high-school dressage, the Horse Capades also included a comedy routine or two. Due to time and money constraints, the group gave its final performance in 1979.

In 1978, with second wife Carole Grant Olford, Grant established Shine a Bit Farm in Brighton, MI. He insisted that dressage was for every horse, bringing seventeen horses to Grand Prix, including Shining Gold, Bit o Shine, Shine a Bit, Miss Prince, Prussian Dudley, and Tarnished Gold. Grant trained Appaloosas, Arabians, Saddlebreds, and Thoroughbreds and taught hundreds of students, including such well-known dressage riders as Dominique Barbier, Violet Hopkins, Mary Anne McPhail, and Nancy Polozker."

Chuck Grant himself learned from AURTHUR KONYOT...

Knie family, Bartabas etc..etc...These people are magicians with horses.




Cherri Reiber who also worked for Glenn Randall (trained Trigger and many other Hollywood "trick" horses" AND is the head trainer for all of the Medieval Times Castles and is currently at the one in Toronto,Canada. You got to know who she is? Canadian Olympic Team? Hello...

Mari Monda Zdunic a top dressage competitor having earned USDF gold, silver, and bronze medals, Olympic Sports Festival silver, bronze and team medals, along with numerous USDF top ten horse of the year honors from the United States Dressage Federation from Training through Grand Prix levels, open and all breed awards. Mari competed in the Olympic Trials in 1980, Gladstone, NJ; and the 1981 World Championship Trials. She is equally admired for her spectacular exhibition rides which have thrilled spectators from coast to coast.

Sabine Schutt-Kerry, The BarteAus, Matt Mclaughlinetc...etc...etc....etc....etc...

Francois Baucher-One of the most noted trainers in the History of
Dressage was a Circus Performer. Invented the flying change at every
stride (one tempes) which interestingly enough was considered a
Trick/Circus movement until very recently when it was added to the
Dressage tests. (Dressage is 2000 years old or more. So yes anything
in the last one hundred years is considered recent).

James Fillis-Circus performer, and author of the most important
works ever written on dressage.

For many years the Circus was one of the few places one could see
good Dressage. Yes there can be a difference between trick training
and Dressage training, and yes Exhibition and Classical Dressage CAN
be different the reality is if they are done correctly. They are all
the same. Classical, Competitive, Circus, Exhibition, Trick
whatever. If done correctly there is no difference!

Kyra Kyrkland-`To become better, you need an open mind', Kyra told.
Kyra learnt a lot from classical Swedish and German trainers, but
she trained with Russian trainers as well and she also learnt from
the circus.

Now if anyone critics of Circus/Trick training can outride her
please step up and I will happily concede. I could go on and on and
on. You would be surprised at how many of today's Grand Prix riders
learned from Circus or Exhibition trainers.

So lets put the Circus vs Dressage stuff to rest yeah?
There is good and bad training everywhere. There is NO difference between an Olympic and Circus Piaffe/Passage/Tempes if they are done correctly.

Those who wish to learn will learn and the rest will just cling to their ideas of it cant be done...so they dont have to feel they need to learn more/they are incompetent....

EVEN IF I rode a GP test while I JUGGLED three balls they would find a reason to whine....

I proved my point in spades....Anyone with a brain can see that.

Now not in an inuslting way, but I would guess the ones who feverently disagreed with me.... havent trained a horse to 3rd level, much less FEI or Grand Prix...So what makes you the experts?

Apparently some of them havent even trained a horse to stand tied. A horse that cant stand tied probably is not emotionally ready or safe to ride. Thats why you cant ride him to Burger King!!;) ;) :lol: :lol: :D

I attacked Sabine because I am tired of watching her bully anyone who disagrees with her.

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:38 PM
FEISOMEDAY- I was just goofing around before......Now its gonna get ugly....

you wrote "But am I the only one who finds the pix of a foot on the chest of a young one on it's back very disturbing?"


You blind old bat....Get some glasses. What foot in what chest?....... you really are a stupid person arent you.....You cant see, you cant think, "FEI SOME DAY" my right butt cheek, I will bet you anything in the world you couldnt train a horse to first level!

See folks that is a Carrot Lady! Cant see past herself and anything she doesnt understand is wrong. Then she will start to see things that arent there to justify her lack of knowledge and make false accusations to back her ignorance up!

http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=main/7/19300323943.jpg&s=f10

Look at it again, got put on your glasses or get some, borrow some whatever. This colt and I would play paddycake. He would lay down on cue before he was even three months old and could do all kinds of neat other stuff in order "to beg for scraps" as you so ignorantly put it. Lets see you do it or anything that requires that much trust from both the horse and handler.

Republican? Hell Yes...Divorced Nope....


Single and loving it for now......

BornToRide
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:45 PM
You know, all you people who keep saying that circus tricks and dressage don't mix just want to make me start showing a freestyle with a zebra pad to a nice old Western song and I might even throw in some Spanish Walk, just to twist them panties some more....eventually they might actually untwist because there's too much twisted tension.....at least that's my hope .......:D :D :D :D

It's the performance that counts, the partnership between you and your horse and really nothing else! If you are good you are simply good, regardless of turnout or training approach. Why is that so difficult to accept?? :confused:

kkj
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:48 PM
Hey PI I wasn't attacking you. I appreciate the pictures. I want to teach my horse to sit like that. I want to see your horse piaffe. I don't think the picture of you with your foot on the foal on the ground is cruel at all. I have a pot belly pig who loves to lay like that and I scratch her with my foot. How is that anymore cruel than a lot of what we do to horses?

I also don't think it was any more cool of someone to call you a many times divorced Republican any more than you calling Sabine bi-polar and in need of a man. These assumptions are really hurtful.

My comments about the Man From Snowy River and Urban Cowboy really are not insults. The Man From Snowy River was pretty incredible when he rode off that cliff (now that is balls) and the Urban Cowboy was a legend. I think you are probably a great horseperson with a special knack for teaching horses things most of us haven't a clue about. I don't know how well you would score in competitive dressage but that doesn't mean you aren't great at what you do. Not too many people would have the balls to take a little Arab over a four foot solid object out on the trail. (I wouldn't)

I just think you need to work on your approach a little. You can come across not so nice and that isn't the best way to get anywhere with us dressage people. Not that I am not prone to irrational moments or strong opinions myself but some of your comments were really a bit um ouch if you know what I mean.

I am done here but please post the video of the piaffe. I really want to see it.

Sandy M
Jul. 13, 2006, 01:55 PM
After all these pages, I am still mightiliy puzzled by all the passionate "never tie your horse" people. I've ridden all my life, I'm almost 61. I've evented to Prelim/Intermediate, shown jumpers to 4'3", I've only shown to 2nd level, but I've schooled 3rd and ridden FEI horses/schoolmasters. And just about EVERY horse person, ammy/trainer/judge/western/english/endurance/trail, etc., I know considers being able to tie BASIC TRAINING for any horse.

At one and two days shows I go to within my basic showing area (w/in a two hour drive of the SF Bay Area, which means people come from much further away to show), and all 3*** recognized shows, only people who are showing for both days of a two day show, or who participate in one of the "big" multi-day shows EVER rent a stall. Every show I go to, trailers are parked around the periphery of barns, houses, arenas, and HORSES ARE TIED TO THEM!! Are all these people stupid and don't know anything about handling horses, or is NoCal some weird place (don't answer that!) and everyone else in the dressage world NEVER ties their horses to trailers? I've seen horses tied to trailers for over 50 years. When did it become a no-no?

Such paranoia. Yup. Horses can get scared. But NEVER tying them because of that possibility? Perhaps do not tie one that has not been trained proper to tie (and why was it not properly trained?). One day, my horse was single-tied (as opposed to cross-tied), near one of our grooming areas. Another horse was tied about 5 or 6 feet away from him. SOMETHING happened (we still don't know what). The other horse pulled back and peeled the tie ring and a board right off the barn and ran about 20 feet before he was stopped and caught. Well, that's certainly proof one shouldn't tie a horse, right? But my horse, tied right next to him, stood and watched the other horse pull back. His ears went up, his eyes bugged a bit in startlement, and he took maybe one step sideways away from all the commotion, but he never put any tension in his tie rope. Do you think this MIGHT be because he's been trained to TIE properly?

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:00 PM
THERE IS NO DAMN FOOT ON THE HORSE!!!!!


I heard reading BB's too much will make your eyesight goofy. I guess it was true!

egontoast
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:10 PM
I don't see too many people saying that a horse should not know how to tie but maybe I missed that(please don't make me read through all that!).

Some people don't use crossties, some people don't like to tie to trailers but that doesn't necessarilly mean their horses don't tie. My horses tie but I do not tie them to horse trailers because I can usually find another option. I just don't like to. It's OK to do that though. It's OK to use different methods. Horses can injure themselves in so many ways and we each must choose the risks we'll take. I know people who think it's dangerous to remove halters IN THE BARN because there might be a fire! I know people who think it's dangerous to leave halters off outside because they may get out or leave halters on because they may get caught up. It's OK! Do what you think is best for your horse and don't be so judgmental of others.

As far as the foot/hand confusion- the photo is dark and the hand is blurred out so some people maybe mistook it for a boot? Maybe?
Possibly>? Why is the hand blurred out, by the way. Are we going to recognize the hands?:lol:

PoliticallyIncorrect
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:15 PM
There is no foot. I am scratching his tummy with one hand and the other is holding his left fore, because he really liked to play paddycake and would get carried away. I know most of you are ladies, but as a man we have to be mindful of overzealous colts playing paddycake by protecting certain areas of our anatomy!:eek: Get my drift?

slc2
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:20 PM
why is it that PI can come here and call people names and tell them they're mentally ill?

Sandy M
Jul. 13, 2006, 02:46 PM
I don't see too many people saying that a horse should not know how to tie but maybe I missed that(please don't make me read through all that!).

Some people don't use crossties, some people don't like to tie to trailers but that doesn't necessarilly mean their horses don't tie. My horses tie but I do not tie them to horse trailers because I can usually find another option. I just don't like to. It's OK to do that though. It's OK to use different methods. Horses can injure themselves in so many ways and we each must choose the risks we'll take. I know people who think it's dangerous to remove halters IN THE BARN because there might be a fire! I know people who think it's dangerous to leave halters off outside because they may get out or leave halters on because they may get caught up. It's OK! Do what you think is best for your horse and don't be so judgmental of others.


Egon, I agree, to each his own --- but there have been statements on here that anyone who ties to a trailer is a bad horseman/woman, and that expensive dressage horses do not/are not tied to trailers, and that anyone who does so is perpetually at risk of injuring/killing their horse(s) - leaving an impression that I and others who routinely tie to trailers (always still hitched to the truck, of course!) are BAD horsepeople, and that some horses are just too "precious" to learn to tie with any reliability - a dubious distinction. Frankly, few of the shows I go to/have gone to - all recognized - both dressage and H/J (in the past) offer any alternative. If people didn't tie to their trailers, they would have to be holding their horses every minute - while they picked up their numbers, someone to hold while they saddled, etc. - hardly practical. And frankly, even if stalls are occasionally available, shows are expensive enough as it is - I don't want to have to fork over yet another $25 for a stall. I find a shady place and leave (horrors!) my horse tied to the trailer, with food, water, etc. set out for him. I am with him most of the time, but I don't fear to walk away to get my number, go to the ladies and/or watch a few classes. He may not be FEI, he may be a non-WB, but by golly, he TIES and I don't have to constantly worry that he's going to be attacked/injured/killed merely because he's tied to my trailer. Sure, manure happens, but if we have to be that paranoid, we shouldn't even RIDE them, or turn them out, or lunge them, or ANYTHING. Join PETA perhaps and let them run free??

ise@ssl
Jul. 13, 2006, 04:07 PM
Well why can't you just leave your horse in the trailer with the doors/ramp open and go get your number, food, hit the bathroom, shop, socialize, etc.?? I don't care what discipline or breed - I just won't leave horses tied to a trailer without BEING THERE.

I also think leaving horses on cross-ties for long stretches of time makes no sense when they can be in their stalls.

First horse I ever owned was a cross-bred who I rode H/J and dressage successfully - could ride him in a parade or along a busy rode. He was a total gentleman and dead-honest to every fence but I would NEVER leave him tied to a trailer or a tree without being there.

MyReality
Jul. 13, 2006, 04:22 PM
Cherri Reiber is currently based in Florida. Both my friend and my coach knows her personally... I don't claim to know her but I met her a few times at my friend's barn. I just fired a note to my friend to ask if she knows who Cherri is training with right now. (Anyone knows?) She left Toronto 2 years ago, there is rumour she no longer does Medieval Times, there is rumour she still flies up to do it.

Cherri is American, not Canadian.

Just in case anyone thought Cherri teaches her horses to stand on a box or dog sit on a ball or lie on their back, in fact she is a classical dressage rider. Very correct, traditional. Perhaps her horses know a trick or two, but I've never heard her mention it or perform it at Medieval Times. (BTW, actually my horse knows how to bow too!)

I don't know whether she would tie her horse for hours, I know as a fact her farrier who is based in Ontario would fly down to Florida to do her horses every 6 weeks. That's how serious she takes her horses and riding career.

MyReality
Jul. 13, 2006, 04:36 PM
I also do not leave horses tied unattended. Tied for a short time when I was there, sure I do that all the time. Tied unattended, never. I've seen 2 accidents and one involves an aged pony that has been tied a million times and been to shows a million times.. one involves a mare, happily chewing hay until a worker moved some flower arrangements. I don't ever want to find out if my horse would survive these incidents or not... mind you my horse is bomb proof, he hasn't spooked for a long time. But why chance it if I can prevent it almost 100%.

egontoast
Jul. 13, 2006, 05:08 PM
take a gander here!

http://www.imagineahorse.com/ImagineSubPortal/CircensicDressage.htm

Sandy M
Jul. 13, 2006, 05:25 PM
I don't know whether she would tie her horse for hours,


Well, I think that MAY be the issue, maybe.... I do not leave my horse tied to the trailer, unattended for "hours," but I have no problem with tying him to the trailer and going away for 15 minutes, or 20 minutes... nor any problem with a horse being tied to a trailer or fence or whatever (safely) for "hours" if he is easily within sight/grasp. Sometimes, if you want to actually show, or trail ride, or compete in cutting or team penning, that's what you have to do.

But NEVER tie to a trailer? I don't know anyone - except people who have said so on this thread - who DOESN'T tie to a trailer at one-day shows. (Oh, I'm sure someone with a lot of money to throw around probably DOES rent a stall - but not all shows offer them). I spent one show, when it rained, with hours between rides, standing the a barn aisleway holding my horse because there were no stalls available and my trailer is a stock trailer, so he would have been rained on to some extent even in the trailer. So was everyone else, except the smart person who actually had one of those marquees that rolls out from the roof of the trailer to shelter her horse. But her horse was tied to the trailer. Accidents can happen, but in 50+ years of riding and 35+ of owning my own horse(s), I've tied him (them) to the trailer - even when he was a greenie, 'tho of course, at that time, I did NOT leave him unattended. One can cite instances of supposedly horrible accidents that happened to horses tied to trailers or elsewhere, but the same could happen ANYWHERE - not just tied to a trailer. Even horses being held by their owners can get loose given a sufficiently scary happening - so NOT tying is no guarantee of safety. If I had to be that paranoid about tying my horse (something that just about everyone I know regards as one of the first things to teacha horse), then I guess I should take up dog-showing instead - keep that sucker on a leash at all times. ROFLOL I appreciate that someone may have a "sensitive" horse that they would prefer to cater to than struggle with, and indeed, to each his own. But I expect my horse to tie and stand quietly, and I don't have anxiety attacks about what might happen while he is tied. That's all.

Sabine
Jul. 13, 2006, 05:40 PM
take a gander here!

http://www.imagineahorse.com/ImagineSubPortal/CircensicDressage.htm


oh- you found it...LOL! quite a circus, eh...:)

Home Again Farm
Jul. 13, 2006, 06:22 PM
take a gander here!

http://www.imagineahorse.com/Imagine...icDressage.htm (http://www.imagineahorse.com/ImagineSubPortal/CircensicDressage.htm)
http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1746582)

That is neither pretty nor "classical. I know a few ODG's (circus type) who would be flipping in their graves. Many of whom PI mentioned. :no:

fiona
Jul. 13, 2006, 06:44 PM
Re
take a gander here!

I think we need an emergency policy decision from Aunt Esther...i just don't know what to say!

Auntieeeeeeeeeeee HELP!