purpose of bar shoes

[squeezix]

what is the purpose of bar shoes? Why do some farriers seem to use them much more than others?

[Tree]

I think bar shoes are for additional support in the heels. If they are heart bar shoes there is additional frog support.

Tree

[poopoo]

More surface area to absorb and dissipate concussion. You can unweight and "float" a section of the hoof while the rest of the shoe supports it and absorbs the concussion.

[goeslikestink]

tree if you are a trimmer -- then you should know that in most cases a heart bar shoe is to support the lamitic foot -- and please note i said most cases

www.imprintshoes.co.uk seen as you a bear foot trimmer then this might suit you

[BeastieSlave]

poopoo gave my answer. I'll add that I owe a lot to bar shoes while growing out cracks (quarter and toe) on really big horses. We used a rim pad that was cut out under the quarter cracks to take the pressure off that area just as poopoo described :yes:

[Tree]

tree if you are a trimmer -- then you should know that in most cases a heart bar shoe is to support the lamitic foot -- and please note i said most cases

www.imprintshoes.co.uk seen as you a bear foot trimmer then this might suit you


IF I'm a trimmer? :D Does 16 years full-time working as a hoof trimmer count?

What I know about bar shoes and their application isn't from nailing them onto hooves myself but what I've learned from the Farriery practices I've been exposed to through the years. Most probably were laminitic horses but what most of the Farriers were using the bar shoes for was heel pain related issues (navicular syndrome and navicular disease).

I call myself a trimmer because I TRIM hooves, not shoe them. I can pull shoes for those that will be transitioning to barefoot.

Thanks for posting a shoe link but it's not my cup'o tea. I prefer and enjoy dealing with bare hooves and laminitic horses aren't an exception. I trim their hooves too. Of course, trimming is just part of dealing with laminitis. The other part is management practices that would help to prevent inflammation in their hooves. In my area of the USA, things like white clover, acorns, lush grazing, over feeding and concussion issues lead to more cases of laminitis happening. Oh and a partner to concussion issues would also be improper hoof form causing the hoof's inability to dissapate shock.

At any rate, the link is of little use for me personally but I'm sure others could find it useful.

Tree

[poopoo]

If you didn't know, then why did you respond?

[Lookout]

More surface area to absorb and dissipate concussion.
Steel has absolutely no ability to absorb or dissipate any concussion. It creates more.

[Lookout]

tree if you are a trimmer -- then you should know that in most cases a heart bar shoe is to support the lamitic foot -- and please note i said most cases

www.imprintshoes.co.uk (http://www.imprintshoes.co.uk) seen as you a bear foot trimmer then this might suit you

In the US, bar shoes are used most often for navicular cases, rarely for laminitic ones. Dressage horses are getting them more and more, on all 4, in the belief that they somehow "support" the foot.

[Appassionato]

In addition to Beastieslave's and poopoo's answer, I've been told it helps better stabilize brittle walls. Regular shoes have the ability to expand under pressure from what I have been given to understand.

Now, as far as why do some farriers use them more than others? Possibly they've seen more cases helped by them than other methods. Same could be said for farriers that just favor aluminums, or reverse shoes, or heartbars over eggbars...they feel that they have found an answer to many different problems.

[poopoo]

"In the US, bar shoes are used most often for navicular cases, rarely for laminitic ones. Dressage horses are getting them more and more, on all 4, in the belief that they somehow "support" the ....."

Well, that information is faulty! Here's some better info.:

"Egg-Bar Shoes: Generally, these special shoes are used for horses with quarter cracks, broken coffin bones, sore or under-slung heels, etc. Egg-bar shoes distribute weight over a larger circumference, and thus are useful whenever stability of the foot is necessary.
D-Bar Shoes: Similar to Egg-Bar shoes in that they can relieve frog pressure which helps to relieve the soreness of navicular disease.
Half Aluminum Bar Pads: These shoes are used to relieve pressure from the heel portion of the foot. They aid horses with sore heels, as well as those with navicular disease, broken coffin bones, and bruised frogs."
And then finally the heart bar shoe - used with it's frog support for the laminitic horse!
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopoo
More surface area to absorb and dissipate concussion.
Tree's response: "Steel has absolutely no ability to absorb or dissipate any concussion. It creates more." - I'm not even going into the physics and engineering concepts about my statement..... You're just knocking shoeing in general vs. being barefoot!

[Lookout]

"Originally Posted by poopoo
More surface area to absorb and dissipate concussion.
Tree's response: "Steel has absolutely no ability to absorb or dissipate any concussion. It creates more." - I'm not even going into the physics and engineering concepts about my statement..... You're just knocking shoeing in general vs. being barefoot!

I wrote that. Please do go into the physics and engineering concepts of how steel absorbs concussion. That will be news to physicists and engineers everywhere.

[poopoo]

I wrote that. Please do go into the physics and engineering concepts about how steel absorbs concussion. That will be new to physicists and engineers everywhere.
You're just not getting it. It's about the SURFACE AREA = less pounds per square inch, hellooooo!!!!! That way, part of the foot can be unweighted and floated (like to grow out cracks) by the support from the structure of the shoe.

[goeslikestink]

didnt say all i said most i anit thick and i dont know why thank you -

imprints shes i thought you might like another altunative --

bare foot like shod feet isnt the be all and end all -- i have both thanks tree

have 2 in shoes rest barefoot as not used like the other two and since we do a lot of road work in uk - then its better to be shod- we dont have or in places dont have lots and lot and lots of grass and hill and stuff like in london you can ride middle of london and then canter round hyde park in minutes--

not that i live there

[Lookout]

You're just not getting it. It's about the SURFACE AREA = less pounds per square inch, hellooooo!!!!! That way, part of the foot can be unweighted and floated (like to grow out cracks) by the support from the structure of the shoe.

If you are using a material that not only does not absorb concussion but creates it, it doesn't matter how much surface area you have. It doesn't absorb concussion whether it's a square inch or a square mile.

[LarkspurCO]

Lookout, how does steel create concussion? I'm interested in the physics of that.


Holly

[LarkspurCO]

It's about the SURFACE AREA = less pounds per square inch

Maybe this is a bit over-simplified? I can see that if the standard bar shoe contacts a greater surface area of the hoof than a standard shoe, the force per square inch to the hoof would be reduced.

If the area of steel contacting the hoof is not greater than that of a regular show, then force per square inch to the hoof would have to be the same. Like when you wear snowshoes - the force to your foot from the ground does not change, but the force to the ground per square inch is reduced, thus you can walk on top of the snow.

I'm not claiming to understand how the bar shoe works, either. I suspect it depends on the horse's problem and how the shoe is applied.

[draft_farrier]

Steel has absolutely no ability to absorb or dissipate any concussion. It creates more.

Please explain this to me as well. I am VERY interested in any SCIENTIFIC data you might have, as well as any theoretical data( I'm a BIG fan of Stephen Hawking ).

[LarkspurCO]

Here's an excerpt from a mind-bending article by James Rooney, D.V.M., which I can read over and over and still not "get it."

http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/rooney1/mechanicsoffootandshoe.htm

The Egg Bar Shoe and “Support”

The bar shoe and, specifically, the egg bar shoe are frequently employed to provide “support.” In both conversation and the literature the nature of this “support” is at best vague and at worst completely undefined. In mechanical terms support must be force (or forces) which operates either as a linear force or a moment or both. One thing to be achieved in this paper is to erase the term “support” in favor of the more precise terms: linear force and moment.

As already noted the bar shoe, per se, can only decrease the value of S, the linear force per unit area of the bearing surface, if it is in contact with the frog. The egg bar shoe, on the other hand, extends behind the heels and is not usually in contact with the frog. What function, then, does the egg bar subserve?

In order to answer that question I must go around the barn to a certain extent. If the deep flexor tendon is cut in half, the toe of the hoof will come off the ground, Figure 5. Examination of equation 2 and Figure3 will show why this happens. DF is no longer present, and there is only Fa and CEc both of which are clockwise. Obviously Fa cannot raise the toe from the ground, and this is done by CEc.

The foot is now in a position like that of Figure 6 with F, the point of contact of the hoof with the ground having moved toward the heels. In order to correct this an egg bar shoe is applied, so that F is in the position of Figure 7 and Fa is now counterclockwise and presses the toe back unto the surface.

An analogous situation pertains with the foal born with so-called flaccid tendons. The cause of that condition is not known but the tendons will shorten with time in many foals. The foot of a leg with flaccid tendons looks like Figure5 since a loose or flaccid deep flexor tendon is not unlike one with the tendon cut in half. Applying the egg bar to such a foot, then, would be expected to pull the foot unto the surface. Doing so tightens (increases the tension in) the common extensor tendon and the extensor branches of the suspensory ligament, both of which will tend to pull the pastern into a more upright configuration.(2)

In both of these situations, severed deep flexor tendon and flaccid flexor tendons, there has been loss of equilibrium of equation 2. There is insufficient DF (at least) in both cases. The egg bar places F in such a position, behind the center of rotation, that F acts as if it were DF.

DFb+Fa-CEc=0
The egg bar shoe has a place, then, in helping the foal with flaccid tendons achieve a more normal conformation until the tendons shorten appropriately.

The egg bar has been suggested and used for many other conditions such as bowed tendons and putative suspensory “strain”, among others. The mechanics strongly suggests that the egg bar can only function as discussed above, that is, when equation 2 is not in equilibrium. With a bowed tendon or strained (torn) suspensory there is no loss of equilibrium and the egg bar will accomplish nothing.

[draft_farrier]

That's not what I was asking...I already know all that. I'm wanting info you your statement....

Steel has absolutely no ability to absorb or dissipate any concussion. It creates more.

[LarkspurCO]

Draft farrier, you be askin' the wrong person! Let's ask Lookout.

Lookout?

Holly

[Thomas_1]

As an Engineer AND horse trainer I'm going to brush aside the daft comments about how dreadful shoes are on horses feet as poppycock and merely answer the question put by the original poster.

Quite simply bar shoes apply pressure to the frog. These include heart bars, g-bars, t-bars etc . They are used to support the foot by applying mechanical pressure to the frog in such as laminitis cases.

The easiest method of protecting the foot is with a bar shoe. So also used for horses that have low heels

[draft_farrier]

I thought I was.....Lookout....Larkspur....it was close LOL

[Lookout]

But you don't wany any data on how steel "absorbs" concussion?

[draft_farrier]

I don't recall saying steel did or did not "absorb" anything ???? Please correct me if I am wrong. If you have data about steel absorbing anything, I'd LOVE to see it.

I would like YOU to validate your remark....

Steel has absolutely no ability to absorb or dissipate any concussion. It creates more.

You made the statement, back it up. Point me to the scientific VALID data that proves you are correct, and not regurgetating junk science meant to make shoes look damaging.....see, it all goes towards CREDIBILITY.

I'm most interested in the "creates more" part.

If your going to state facts, you should be able to back them up???? Correct????

[Lookout]

I don't recall saying steel did or did not "absorb" anything ???? Please correct me if I am wrong. If you have data about steel absorbing anything, I'd LOVE to see it.

I would like YOU to validate your remark....



You made the statement, back it up. Point me to the scientific VALID data that proves you are correct, and not regurgetating junk science meant to make shoes look damaging.....see, it all goes towards CREDIBILITY.

I'm most interested in the "creates more" part.

If your going to state facts, you should be able to back them up???? Correct????

Let's apply the same standards to all - I'll provide it when the statement that eggbar shoes absorb more concussion due to greater surface area, is supported. BTW, I'm having trouble getting my steel athletic shoe insert company off the ground; do you think you could help me figure out why it's failing?

[Appassionato]

Let's apply the same standards to all - I'll provide it when the statement that eggbar shoes absorb more concussion due to greater surface area, is supported. BTW, I'm having trouble getting my steel athletic shoe insert company off the ground; do you think you could help me figure out why it's failing?

Because you're not much of an entrepreneur? ;)

http://www.shanghaimetal.com/shoes_material.htm

Steel shanks have been in footwear for years. Specifically for heavy use footwear like work boots. Sorry, not really trying to poke at ya, but you asked for it!

Steel does absorb energy:

http://www.steel.org/Content/NavigationMenu/SteelinYourLife/AutoSteel/Auto_Steel.htm

Humans are not capable in general of forces that a horse can exert to the ground. A 1000 lb horse while galloping exerts how much in pounds per hoof? A weak wall will simply tear. No question that trimming/shoeing is an art form, in that it only takes a little bit to be off and lame a horse. But good trims only go so far with some hooves. Sometimes a shoe is necessary. Now, as far as whether or not the eggbar absorbs more because of lbs per square inch? Probably so due to more metal used verses a regular shoe. A the same token, I would see benefit in the event of a serious quarter crack that with an eggbar, the shoe won't expand and contract under force as easily as a regular shoe.

In any case, why isn't steel attached directly to our feet? Um, we don't have hooves? :lol: Ok, I'm just tired and silly now. :cool:

[poopoo]

Lookout,
You cut physics class a lot in high school, didn't you?

[blrm]

I think a lot of people were cutting physics class. :D :D
Is the main purpose of shoes not to provide an even surface for the hoof wall to bear on? For example if your horse is walking on rough ground in one particular footfall there may be 4 points of contact for the ground to touch the hoof wall. In a bare foot those those points of contact will have to carry the horses weight (high psi).In a shod foot the shoe transfers those pressure points to the hoof wall in a more even load (reducing the psi to a particular spot on the hoof wall).So the force your horse is putting on the 4 contact points of the ground is the same whether shod or bare but the forces exerted on a particular spot in the hoof wall by those 4 points are reduced in the shod hoof.
Steel transfers impact type energy very well.Put a steel plate against your head and have some one hit it.It won't feel good ,and if they hit it again with a rock and the same force, it will vibrate making the impact seem worse.The car scenario is deceiving because in that case the steel absorbs impact (energy) by bending,not what you want to happen to a shoe on your horses hoof. :)

[MsM]

My horse has some chronic problems with his feet including pedal osteitis. We now have him in bar shoes. These seem to work best for him - whatever the reason. I believe the thinking is that it allows a redistribution of his weight and gets more of it under the column of support - which he cannot seem to manage with the way his foot grows/wears. Regarding "pressure on the frog" : One foot has crushed heels that farriers have been unable to completely remedy. What has worked for this foot is a bar shoe with a rim pad that is cut out by the frog. Without the pad the shoe was actually putting too much pressure on a small area of the frog and cutting into it!

[Tree]

The OP asked what the purpose of bar shoes. I feel certain that not everyone who responded shoe horses themselves. So for the one who asked why I responded, I will pose this question: Why did ANYONE say something? For myself, I responded with what I knew of their application from what I have gathered through the years. It was not acquired by reading a book or books about farriery practices. It was field experience.

While it's nice to read excerpts from books concerning bar shoes and their appplication, it isn't what you will necessarily find outside of books. The OP wasn't specific about what type of bar shoe either. It's obvious that they're not widely understood.

For one, let's talk surface area. Compare to what? Other shoes? Sure, bar shoes can provide more active surface for ground contact but, how do they compare to a bare hoof in dynamics? Rather limited, I'm afraid. So a bare hoof could have more ability to absorb shock than a stiff metal shoe. Why? Well, you might ask a farrier, as they're shaping an iron shoe on an anvil what that feels like compared to something which would provide less shock and vibration to their hand and arm using the same actions. Going back to horse hooves and their ability to dissapate shock, look up Bowker's studies on how blood volume in the hoof works to dissapate shock. Look at Pollitt's Hoof Studies video for more snipits of how hoof capsules and their structures respond when fully loaded and dissapate the energy forces being transmitted along the limb down onto the hoof. Not only does the hoof dissapate the shock but also the boney structures in the lower limb.

Watch slow-motion footage of a shod horse troting or cantering on pavement and see how the shock wave is transmitted back up the limb vs a barefoot horse doing the same things on pavement.

We don't say things because we simply "think" that that is how it is. We've seen things that those who challenge us apparently have not. This is also why we respond to questions about shoes and feet.

Tree

[Appassionato]

Compare to what? Other shoes?

That is how I took the question honestly, else bar shoes wouldn't exist and the OP would have asked why farriers put on regular shoes.

[Tree]

Is the main purpose of shoes not to provide an even surface for the hoof wall to bear on? For example if your horse is walking on rough ground in one particular footfall there may be 4 points of contact for the ground to touch the hoof wall. In a bare foot those those points of contact will have to carry the horses weight (high psi).

I'd much rather talk about things like this than wade through the rest.

Yes, I think a part of shoeing is based on providing a level surface for the hoof to distribute the forces evenly along the outer walls since shoes aren't supposed to contact the sole. Add a frog plate and the forces are now divided amongst the walls and frog. However, how a bare hoof responds to uneven surfaces is quite dynamic. The bare hoof, trimmed appropriately, can flex/deform to accomodate footing conditions and yet still provide enough protection to the inner structures. The laminae are like bushings because they allow for some independent movement of the inner structures to that of the hoof capsule. The outer walls are made up of sprial horn tubules which act very much like an individually wrapped coil spring in those types of mattresses. A body on a bed causes only the weighted springs to react while the unweighted are not invovled. Of the weighted springs each will react according to the amount of force placed on them. The same is true of hoof tubules too. So as a horse travels over uneven terrains, the horn tubules react accordingly and then return to their previous condition because the forces will vary between weighted and unweighted. It is dynamic while one could say that the shod hoof would be rather static having the shoe deform vs the hoof surface in response to the terrains.

I prefer having a dynamic bare hoof as opposed to a static shod hoof. A static hoof is limited to the conditions prior to the shoe being applied. I wouldn't trust that all shod horses had a correct trim before their shoes were applied. In the event a barefoot horse's feet were trimmed incorrectly, they have a chance to wear them into a proper shape vs being locked into that trim.

Tree

[Tree]

That is how I took the question honestly, else bar shoes wouldn't exist and the OP would have asked why farriers put on regular shoes.

That quote was in response to shock dissapation and some odd ideas about physics vs the OP's original question.

Tree

[Appassionato]

I think a lot of people were cutting physics class. :D :D
Is the main purpose of shoes not to provide an even surface for the hoof wall to bear on? For example if your horse is walking on rough ground in one particular footfall there may be 4 points of contact for the ground to touch the hoof wall. In a bare foot those those points of contact will have to carry the horses weight (high psi).In a shod foot the shoe transfers those pressure points to the hoof wall in a more even load (reducing the psi to a particular spot on the hoof wall).So the force your horse is putting on the 4 contact points of the ground is the same whether shod or bare but the forces exerted on a particular spot in the hoof wall by those 4 points are reduced in the shod hoof.
Steel transfers impact type energy very well.Put a steel plate against your head and have some one hit it.It won't feel good ,and if they hit it again with a rock and the same force, it will vibrate making the impact seem worse.The car scenario is deceiving because in that case the steel absorbs impact (energy) by bending,not what you want to happen to a shoe on your horses hoof. :)

Although I can't say that the car scenario is deceiving due to it's ability to "strengthen" upon impact, great post! My horse in particular will destroy his own hooves (TBs just weren't bred for feet :no: ), and he needs the shoes to flat out hold his hooves together, or else he'll flat out have nubbs or even bone. Hence my analogy. And a human head doesn't translate well when we are talking about weight bearing limbs that are hooved, IMO.

[draft_farrier]

As I expected Lookout.....a juvenile cop out response.....that statement is just the "sheep following the flock" and regurgetating junk science meant to makes ones argument valid, when in fact, it is far from it. simple truth being....some horses need shoes...others don't. I guess this is the only way to validate gouging folks $80-150 for a trim, when farriers charge an average of $25 and get the same results.

FYI...I don't use bar shoes...there are IMHO, better ways to achieve the same thing.

[donnie]

Reebok, Nike and the rest have got it wrong . They should be putting metal into their running shoes !!!

[Lookout]

As I expected Lookout.....a juvenile cop out response.....that statement is just the "sheep following the flock" and regurgetating junk science meant to makes ones argument valid, when in fact, it is far from it. simple truth being....some horses need shoes...others don't. I guess this is the only way to validate gouging folks $80-150 for a trim, when farriers charge an average of $25 and get the same results.

FYI...I don't use bar shoes...there are IMHO, better ways to achieve the same thing.

I never said anything about shoes and whether some horses need them, or not, or anything about barefoot. I simply said, that steel does NOT absorb concussion. But we've established you have trouble reading.

Which reminds me - I asked you a few questions on another thread which never got answered, the difference being that I didn't keep demanding something to which I felt entitled. If you ignore my questions, why should I answer yours?

[Lookout]

http://www.shanghaimetal.com/shoes_material.htm

Steel shanks have been in footwear for years. Specifically for heavy use footwear like work boots. Sorry, not really trying to poke at ya, but you asked for it!


I don't think those were engineered for comfort. Let me know when you go running in those shoes ;)

Steel does absorb energy:

http://www.steel.org/Content/NavigationMenu/SteelinYourLife/AutoSteel/Auto_Steel.htm



Sorry, but that is not comparable. The energy "absorbed" by steel in a car's rollcage or bumper does so by (as it says), bending or breaking. And it usually does so at the joints, which a flat steel plate does not have. The steel shoe does not do that, it returns the energy to the foot and leg.

[Lookout]

Is the main purpose of shoes not to provide an even surface for the hoof wall to bear on? For example if your horse is walking on rough ground in one particular footfall there may be 4 points of contact for the ground to touch the hoof wall. In a bare foot those those points of contact will have to carry the horses weight (high psi).In a shod foot the shoe transfers those pressure points to the hoof wall in a more even load (reducing the psi to a particular spot on the hoof wall).So the force your horse is putting on the 4 contact points of the ground is the same whether shod or bare but the forces exerted on a particular spot in the hoof wall by those 4 points are reduced in the shod hoof.

If the horse's foot is contacting the ground at 4 points it has been incorrectly trimmed. The entire back of the foot (1/3) including the frog, should contact the ground, and then the front 1/3. In so doing the foot is capable of bending and conforming to some degree to the ground's uneven surface. A stiff piece of steel can't do this, instead the whole surface unbendingly contacts the ground and in so doing, parts of the leg, like tendons and ligaments are unevenly stressed and stretched as a result, resulting in strains and pulls.

[poopoo]

If the horse's foot is contacting the ground at 4 points it has been incorrectly trimmed. The entire back of the foot (1/3) including the frog, should contact the ground, and then the front 1/3. In so doing the foot is capable of bending and conforming to some degree to the ground's uneven surface. A stiff piece of steel can't do this, instead the whole surface unbendingly contacts the ground and in so doing, parts of the leg, like tendons and ligaments are unevenly stressed and stretched as a result, resulting in strains and pulls.

And you're not promoting barefoot trimming.....!

[blrm]

If the horse's foot is contacting the ground at 4 points it has been incorrectly trimmed. The entire back of the foot (1/3) including the frog, should contact the ground, and then the front 1/3. In so doing the foot is capable of bending and conforming to some degree to the ground's uneven surface. A stiff piece of steel can't do this, instead the whole surface unbendingly contacts the ground and in so doing, parts of the leg, like tendons and ligaments are unevenly stressed and stretched as a result, resulting in strains and pulls.

If the feet you trim conform to really rough ground that well ,you must use the same method as Tree, where the tubules of the hoof wall pop up and down like the bowling ball mattress to follow the contours of the ground. :)
When my barefoots leave a track in the dirt they leave a full footprint.I didn't realize that it should only be the front third and back third.I'm going to have to look into this!!!! :)

[Thomas_1]

If the horse's foot is contacting the ground at 4 points it has been incorrectly trimmed. The entire back of the foot (1/3) including the frog, should contact the ground, and then the front 1/3. In so doing the foot is capable of bending and conforming to some degree to the ground's uneven surface. A stiff piece of steel can't do this, instead the whole surface unbendingly contacts the ground and in so doing, parts of the leg, like tendons and ligaments are unevenly stressed and stretched as a result, resulting in strains and pulls.

What a load of rubbish! Yet another barefoot fundamentalist espousing gobbledygook and nonsense and which shows a lack of understanding and knowledge and with no scientific nor clinical rationale.

I just hope there are no owners with limited knowledge reading that sort of tripe and believing it actually might be true.

I wonder how on earth I've kept horses with shoes on all my life and had high level competition ones in hard work till ripe old ages (rather than ones that potter around doing little trail rides and a limited amount of work in a field) and yet have NEVER and I mean honestly NEVER had one with tendon or ligament damage.

And I hasten to add I don't put tendon boots and other such nonsense on them either.

And the reason why is because I utilise excellent professional farriery services - not some self taught or limited trained barefoot trimmer and I keep my horses fit. And before I get labelled as a shoeing fundamentalist I do have a few horses barefoot too.

[Appassionato]

I don't think those were engineered for comfort. Let me know when you go running in those shoes ;)



Sorry, but that is not comparable. The energy "absorbed" by steel in a car's rollcage or bumper does so by (as it says), bending or breaking. And it usually does so at the joints, which a flat steel plate does not have. The steel shoe does not do that, it returns the energy to the foot and leg.

Yes, comfort is provided by steel shanks by giving support. And I've actually run after a horse in my ariats without problems.

How are the properties of steel not comparable to the properties of steel? In any place that the steel bends, energy is absorbed. It strengthens as it bends. Joints tend to be the weakest area, hence reinforcements are provided at those areas. I actually had a talk with 2 physics professors yesterday (one of them is mine, the other is head of the department) about shoes vs. barefoot. Their answer was what I figured, the steel had extremely limited to no effect at all on the concussive forces of a horse galloping. It's too thin to make a difference. They also concluded that other than what's holding the shoe on (nails), they could see where it would limit breakage of the hoof wall. In which case, any farrier will tell you there's an art to knowing which nails to use on a said horse and it's work load. No good farrier has ever argued otherwise.

[blrm]

[QUOTE
It strengthens as it bends. [/QUOTE]

Surely your proffessors did not agree with this statement.It would be true if both end of the steel were fastened to fixed objects so that the steel came under tension as it bent(as it is in your car scenario). That is where steel excells, its tensile strength.
But if you just take a piece of straight flat steel and bend it, it weakens it (something about realigning the molecules)and if it is mild steel and you bend it 3 or 4 times in the same place it will break.
I can see their point about the transfer of concussive forces from a physics standpoint.But do to small changes in the way the hoof may flex with or without shoes I would want to see some research before I believed it 100%.:)

[Lookout]

If the feet you trim conform to really rough ground that well ,you must use the same method as Tree, where the tubules of the hoof wall pop up and down like the bowling ball mattress to follow the contours of the ground. :)


If you refer to the article from The Horse concerning the physiology of the foot it describes the spiral construction of the tubules, which are able to be compressed because of this construction, and because of the inter-laminar horn are able to do so independently of each other, in response to the pressure from the bottom, from, for example, a rock. A shoe disables this property causing all the weight to be evenly applied over the rigid structure. (although your description of "a bowling ball mattress, a mattress with which I'm not familiar, sounds a little extreme).

[Lookout]

Yes, comfort is provided by steel shanks by giving support. And I've actually run after a horse in my ariats without problems.
Um, I recall a diagram of their patented footbed, whose primary material seemed to be gel and some sort of airpockets.

I actually had a talk with 2 physics professors yesterday (one of them is mine, the other is head of the department) about shoes vs. barefoot. Their answer was what I figured, the steel had extremely limited to no effect at all on the concussive forces of a horse galloping. It's too thin to make a difference.
OK, I'm convinced.

BTW, which one of us is the one with the sound horse?

[Appassionato]

Surely your proffessors did not agree with this statement.It would be true if both end of the steel were fastened to fixed objects so that the steel came under tension as it bent(as it is in your car scenario). That is where steel excells, its tensile strength.
But if you just take a piece of straight flat steel and bend it, it weakens it (something about realigning the molecules)and if it is mild steel and you bend it 3 or 4 times in the same place it will break.
I can see their point about the transfer of concussive forces from a physics standpoint.But do to small changes in the way the hoof may flex with or without shoes I would want to see some research before I believed it 100%.:)

When does the horse bend it like that? I've never seen it.

And yes, they DID agree that as steel bends, while it weakens in one spot, one is stronger under a certain load. It makes a difference in whether a person hit a wall at 60 mph or a car coming towards it at 60 mph. But also on that note of strength, ever tried to straighten a frame? It just about can't be done. It takes repetitive and acute bending in that spot to weaken it enough to break. Or else a very strong person could break a spoon in half in only one or two bends.

[blrm]

If you refer to the article from The Horse concerning the physiology of the foot it describes the spiral construction of the tubules, which are able to be compressed because of this construction, and because of the inter-laminar horn are able to do so independently of each other, in response to the pressure from the bottom, from, for example, a rock. A shoe disables this property causing all the weight to be evenly applied over the rigid structure. (although your description of "a bowling ball mattress, a mattress with which I'm not familiar, sounds a little extreme).

Could you post a link to that article? I thought you meant the article that you posted on the other thread but it suggests that the tubules are not compressable.

[Tree]

If the feet you trim conform to really rough ground that well ,you must use the same method as Tree, where the tubules of the hoof wall pop up and down like the bowling ball mattress to follow the contours of the ground. :)
When my barefoots leave a track in the dirt they leave a full footprint.I didn't realize that it should only be the front third and back third.I'm going to have to look into this!!!! :)

How does the footing that you find full foot prints in compare to really rough ground? And I'm trying to mentally picture tubules popping up and down. I don't believe they have the ability to "pop".

It you want to see what sort of contact your horse's hooves make with the ground, try walking it on asphalt or concrete. With the asphalt surface, the portions of hooves which make direct contact with it will end up being blackened while the passive areas will remain natural colored. With concrete, the contact areas will be abraided or white-ish. I say to walk the horse first and check the bottom of the hooves before trotting, checking, and cantering and checking. As more force comes down to bear on the hooves the marks should increase and involve more of the hooves surface areas. Of course, this would also depend on how well the hooves were functioning according to their form.

Tree

[Tree]

What a load of rubbish! Yet another barefoot fundamentalist espousing gobbledygook and nonsense and which shows a lack of understanding and knowledge and with no scientific nor clinical rationale.

Could you do a better job of countering the information you're so opposed to? It does little for me to read the above when I'd much rather read what you know to be true instead.

I just hope there are no owners with limited knowledge reading that sort of tripe and believing it actually might be true.

If I resort to reading articles in the various Farrier publications and books, I can see varied info concerning frogs having ground contact. If a hoof is trimmed leaving the frog passive then this would seem to contradict the idea that frogs should be weightbearing.

I'm a horse owner/horse trainer/hoof trimmer/riding instructor and will probably add to this in the future. My education is continuous. The longer I live the more I learn. Limited knowledge seems to indicate one has stopped learning.

I wonder how on earth I've kept horses with shoes on all my life and had high level competition ones in hard work till ripe old ages (rather than ones that potter around doing little trail rides and a limited amount of work in a field) and yet have NEVER and I mean honestly NEVER had one with tendon or ligament damage.

I wonder too. So I'll ask, just how have you managed the horses. Are they stalled part of the day? How often are they ridden/conditioned? What are they fed? What is their shoeing schedule? How big are these horses and what size shoes do their wear? Do those shoe sizes ever change through the years or do they wear the same exact size from start to finish? How many horses have you competed in your life and how long did they last? At what age did they begin to compete and at what levels? What levels did they advance to? I mean, it's fine for you to use words like "potter", "little", "limited" and so on to try describe what others are doing. You're view appears quite narrow. I hope you're not tempting fate...did you knock on wood? ;)

And I hasten to add I don't put tendon boots and other such nonsense on them either.

And the reason why is because I utilise excellent professional farriery services - not some self taught or limited trained barefoot trimmer and I keep my horses fit. And before I get labelled as a shoeing fundamentalist I do have a few horses barefoot too.

Yes, some folks in here are rather quick to assign labels when there was no need to do so. "Self-taught" "Limited Trained Barefoot Trimmer"

I was not "self-taught". I'm self-employed. My training isn't limited unless I stop seeking more education. That hasn't happened yet. I used to keep my horses shod. It just happens that I keep them barefoot now. Am I a barefoot fundamentalist? I think that since I once believed shoes were necessary I am now a reformed shoeing fundamentalist who now adheres to what it takes to keep horses barefooted and rehab previous improperly trimmed horses and shod ones. So yes, I'm a fundamentalist because I adhere to a set of basic principles based on the nature of horses and tending to their BARE feet is just a PART of it. What sort of label does that need? Frankly, I am not concerned with having a label for it. I just do it.

Tree

[Tree]

Yes, comfort is provided by steel shanks by giving support. And I've actually run after a horse in my ariats without problems.

What part of your foot do these steel shanks support? I venture to guess these things aren't located where your foot naturally flexes or you might as well be wearing ski boots. I don't think you'd find chasing your horse while wearing ski boots comfortable, sans skiis and snow. :D ;)

How are the properties of steel not comparable to the properties of steel? In any place that the steel bends, energy is absorbed.

Steel toed work boots would not rebound after a crushing blow. When a horse catches the heel of a front shoe with a hind foot and yanks it, the shoe remains twisted vs resuming it's prior shape.

It strengthens as it bends.

If steel is able to bend, it's less likely to break. Spring Steel comes to mind. However, if you continuously bend metal at the same point, it'll break. As you bend it, heat builds too. So I don't think it's true to say that metal will strengthen as it bends. It has to do with the makeup of the metal. However, on the bottom of a horse's foot with the hoof surface prepared to be level before the shoe is applied, how much flex can be expected? If equal pressure is distributed along the shoes surface and transmitted to the hoof, what's is there to flex?

Joints tend to be the weakest area, hence reinforcements are provided at those areas.

Metal joints? The joints are only as strong as what links them together. If friction is a problem, for lack of lubricant, then failure would occur sooner vs later due to the amount of heat that would be generated. Joints which are constructed to last while have friction reducing parts. This is just common sense stuff. Having to replace bearings on our riding mower blade housings can be quite educational. They are sealed with grease in them and when they blow out, they are useless. The hangers for the mowing deck show wear from the constant motion with metal against metal.

I actually had a talk with 2 physics professors yesterday (one of them is mine, the other is head of the department) about shoes vs. barefoot. Their answer was what I figured, the steel had extremely limited to no effect at all on the concussive forces of a horse galloping. It's too thin to make a difference. They also concluded that other than what's holding the shoe on (nails), they could see where it would limit breakage of the hoof wall. In which case, any farrier will tell you there's an art to knowing which nails to use on a said horse and it's work load. No good farrier has ever argued otherwise.

Do they study horses with bare feet and shoes to see what sorts of effects shoes would have on shock absorption? I wouldn't trust them to understand how bare hooves work in the first place much less how adding a shoe changes things. Do they even know the PSI changes according to footing surfaces, hoof form and speed? If these 2 professors expect to offer anything of use concerning the physics connected with horses and hoof function, I think they should get together with those who are more versed on the subject, IMO. While they may be very qualified in their "field", horses and hoof function appear to be beyond them. Oh and Farriers would argue amongst themselves if they didn't agree with each other.

Tree

[Appassionato]

What part of your foot do these steel shanks support? I venture to guess these things aren't located where your foot naturally flexes or you might as well be wearing ski boots. I don't think you'd find chasing your horse while wearing ski boots comfortable, sans skiis and snow. :D ;)



Steel toed work boots would not rebound after a crushing blow. When a horse catches the heel of a front shoe with a hind foot and yanks it, the shoe remains twisted vs resuming it's prior shape.



If steel is able to bend, it's less likely to break. Spring Steel comes to mind. However, if you continuously bend metal at the same point, it'll break. As you bend it, heat builds too. So I don't think it's true to say that metal will strengthen as it bends. It has to do with the makeup of the metal. However, on the bottom of a horse's foot with the hoof surface prepared to be level before the shoe is applied, how much flex can be expected? If equal pressure is distributed along the shoes surface and transmitted to the hoof, what's is there to flex?



Metal joints? The joints are only as strong as what links them together. If friction is a problem, for lack of lubricant, then failure would occur sooner vs later due to the amount of heat that would be generated. Joints which are constructed to last while have friction reducing parts. This is just common sense stuff. Having to replace bearings on our riding mower blade housings can be quite educational. They are sealed with grease in them and when they blow out, they are useless. The hangers for the mowing deck show wear from the constant motion with metal against metal.



Do they study horses with bare feet and shoes to see what sorts of effects shoes would have on shock absorption? I wouldn't trust them to understand how bare hooves work in the first place much less how adding a shoe changes things. Do they even know the PSI changes according to footing surfaces, hoof form and speed? If these 2 professors expect to offer anything of use concerning the physics connected with horses and hoof function, I think they should get together with those who are more versed on the subject, IMO. While they may be very qualified in their "field", horses and hoof function appear to be beyond them. Oh and Farriers would argue amongst themselves if they didn't agree with each other.

Tree


When in doubt, just move the goal posts. :lol:

Where did I mention ski boots? And steel toes? When did I say that steel bends back to it's original shape? And when did I say horse shoes flex? When did I mention lubricating a fixed joint? I could go on and on here. You heard half a conversation.

[blrm]

The outer walls are made up of sprial horn tubules which act very much like an individually wrapped coil spring in those types of mattresses. A body on a bed causes only the weighted springs to react while the unweighted are not invovled. Of the weighted springs each will react according to the amount of force placed on them. The same is true of hoof tubules too. So as a horse travels over uneven terrains, the horn tubules react accordingly and then return to their previous condition because the forces will vary between weighted and unweighted.
Tree

It was you that brought up the mattress scenario and I had a hard time picturing that as well,since any literature I have seen to date says that the tubules are flexible but not compressable as you suggest.
I used the example of 4 points of foot contact on rough ground to try to explain the pressures exerted on the foot not for a critique of whether the foot was trimmed properly or not.

How does the footing that you find full foot prints in compare to really rough ground?

It doesn't obviously. So are you saying that in Lookouts scenario the back 1/3 and front1/3 ground contact only applies to rough ground and it would be different if they were on hard footing?
In rough ground I don't see how you can really control where or how many points of contact there are and then pass judgement on the trim being right or wrong.

[Percheron X]

what is the purpose of bar shoes? Why do some farriers seem to use them much more than others?

Primarily the "invention" of horseshoes was to provide a tough wearing surface and traction for the feet of working horses.

Not all shoes are made of steel. Some horses go in aluminum shoes, or shoes made of other materials.

There are potentially both positive and negative aspects relating to the use of shoes on horses. A horses work and physiology will determine the necessity for shoes.

The science of corrective shoeing is very complex.

The OP is about bar shoes, this falls under the concepts of corrective shoeing, and the reasons for considering the use of any type of bar shoe will vary depending on the corrective needs of the particular horse for which the bar shoes are being considered.

Every farrier is an individual having there own beliefs of which shoes are best suited to solve any particular problem. This is why some farriers may seem to use more bar shoes than others.

The "basic" reason for the use of a bar shoe is to provide extra support for, a part of the hoof, or for influencing the physiological relationship between a horses hoof and leg.

If you wish to discuss bar shoes beyond that explanation, I believe you will need to present a scenario of a horse with a particular problem for which a bar shoe may be helpful.

[Tree]

When in doubt, just move the goal posts. :lol:

Where did I mention ski boots? And steel toes? When did I say that steel bends back to it's original shape? And when did I say horse shoes flex? When did I mention lubricating a fixed joint? I could go on and on here. You heard half a conversation.

I will answer your questions when you get around to answering mine. You DID say you wore boots with steel shanks, correct?

Tree

[Appassionato]

I will answer your questions when you get around to answering mine. You DID say you wore boots with steel shanks, correct?

Tree

Moving goal posts further back puts you in the parking lot, Tree. And steel shanks are not the same as steel toed. And I've answered questions. You got snarky, and it was returned in kind. Actually, I give myself credit for at least not just making stuff up and being for having polite...

[Tree]

It was you that brought up the mattress scenario and I had a hard time picturing that as well,since any literature I have seen to date says that the tubules are flexible but not compressable as you suggest.
I used the example of 4 points of foot contact on rough ground to try to explain the pressures exerted on the foot not for a critique of whether the foot was trimmed properly or not.

Ok, I'm game.

Yes, I brought up the mattress part AND the individual coil springs but you then added a BOWLING BALL. :D :D :D

I did not say anything about tubules NOT compressing. That had to be someone else. It's okay if you've not run across any info, to date, that explains this function. That isn't at issue here anyway.

I didn't critique the 4-point trim either. I simply asked what sort of footing it was that you found full hoof prints. Go back and find that quote and see who posted it.


It doesn't obviously. So are you saying that in Lookouts scenario the back 1/3 and front1/3 ground contact only applies to rough ground and it would be different if they were on hard footing?
In rough ground I don't see how you can really control where or how many points of contact there are and then pass judgement on the trim being right or wrong.

What doesn't?

As far as the frogs go, the rear 3rd does make active contact with the ground because it is level with the heels. How the hoof deforms depends on the amount of resistance the footing provides as to how much more frog would become weightbearing. Hooves don't fully expand until the max load occurs. Soft ground would allow the hoof to sink until it reached a firm base unless the footing is too deep for that to happen. This would alter the dynamics of weightbearing, I should think.

It's not that "we" control the points which bear the most impact and weight. The 4-point (and there is also a 3-point pattern too), were found in naturally worn hooves of wild horses on harsh terrains. So it's a WEAR PATTERN which was discovered long ago. When you leave bare hooves level (as in how they are prepared for shoes), quarter walls will bust out or become thinner than the rest of the outer wall surfaces due to too much pressure there. Hairlines can be shoved up and/or wall separations will form under the right conditions when bare hoof are left flat.

Again, I was not the one passing judgment as to your horse's trim. I don't recall you posting any pics. Did you?

Tree

[Tree]

Moving goal posts further back puts you in the parking lot, Tree.

I wasn't aware that this was a game.

And steel shanks are not the same as steel toed. And I've answered questions. You got snarky, and it was returned in kind. Actually, I give myself credit for at least not just making stuff up and being for having polite...

I asked you what steel shanks were. I think the "snarks" were out beforehand. Nice try on the making up stuff part. The rules of the game appear to change with each of your posts.

Tree

[Appassionato]

I wasn't aware that this was a game.



I asked you what steel shanks were. I think the "snarks" were out beforehand. Nice try on the making up stuff part. The rules of the game appear to change with each of your posts.

Tree

I give up. You want this thread to be about horse shoes vs. barefoot, so go ahead but by yourself. It isn't what the OP asked for, but maybe they got the answer they were looking for anyway. And the snarks you are refering to, please refer back through the thread. I wasn't one of them. I just simply got tired of the holier than thou attitude of yours. You really should reflect on this, it might explain a lot to you.

[Tree]

I give up. You want this thread to be about horse shoes vs. barefoot, so go ahead but by yourself.

Maybe you should. I didn't want this thread to be about shoes vs barefoot. Go back to my first response to the OP and read that post.

It isn't what the OP asked for, but maybe they got the answer they were looking for anyway. And the snarks you are refering to, please refer back through the thread. I wasn't one of them. I just simply got tired of the holier than thou attitude of yours. You really should reflect on this, it might explain a lot to you.

"Snark" was introduce by you. The thread digressed into snark-isms back on the first page. I think sarcasm falls under that category. I'm not sure I had a "tude". I like answering questions and asking some too. Reflection is something everyone should do. I may not find what YOU think I should while reflecting. ;) :D

I think there's been some helpful info scattered throughout this thread. People besides the OP asked questions of others. Various info was given as to what bar shoes are used for. It's obvious bar shoes have many uses judging by the answers.

Tree

[poopoo]

"I know you are, but what am I?"
"I don't make trash, I burn it."
"It takes one to know one!"

That's what a "discussion" with you barefooters is like!

P.S. "Tude" went out with "za" and "rents", back in the 80's.....

[goeslikestink]

agree with thomas

i shall tell you all the piccys i have seen on here and the shoes i ahve seen

i have no problems with my horses feet hocks back or otherwise

i have a good farrier -- and i wouldnt have anyone of your farriers or trimmers touch my neds and thats a fact as none come up to my standards of trimming or shoeing -- no offence meant

tree if you that good then you come here and take an exam see you past it

[goeslikestink]

i dont know thomas but i know one thing a man that has 4 in hand and drives them in competions as no doubt he has done
and top level i bet -- has had ponies all his life tuaght high school
which is cassical dressage wouldnt look after his feet on said animals

what bugs me most of all in usa and iam going say it as i have notice it a lot yyou so god darn quick to have hock treatment and have so many hock isuuses

and i bet there more than one that would agree that its probably not hocks at all but the ruddy feet -- from bad shoeing and bad triming

we dont have as many issues with feet in uk becuase we have a proper farrier service and one that tuaght like wise with vets it snot self taught its a carreer thats make up of passing a couse and the course is four years long and covers everthing and not jsut shoes it also covers verternairy care of said aniamls feet and legs -- and if they weant to go on to masters they have another 2 yrs of it which in most they do - which eqyual the same as avert upt o six years beofre they become a prffoessional


not like it states a weeks course and whame i can do horses feet
i wouldnt have anyone touch my horses feet unless they had the proper condentials and thats a fact and i have havent got top notch ponies iam an ordinary person but i can state in all my horses i have had or rescued moved or homed which equals to over 5000 in 34yrs none have had
hock issues from bad trinmging or shoes and none have had bad feet from shoes -- and iam barefoot to with ponies and a farrier does them as well shoed my horses

[Tree]

i have a good farrier -- and i wouldnt have anyone of your farriers or trimmers touch my neds and thats a fact as none come up to my standards of trimming or shoeing -- no offence meant

tree if you that good then you come here and take an exam see you past it


There are only a few people I'd allow to trim my "neds" feet too. None of them would be farriers unless I was truly desperate. ;) Why? For the same reason...not many come up to my standards of trimming. No point in shoeing a poorly trimmed hoof either. I don't like how shoes affect hooves so I'd only be interested in trims. No offense meant here either.

I'm going to ask and maybe I'll get a response too!

Why would I need to take a UK exam? Realistically, if I don't know what's on it I couldn't expect to pass it. If it's based on conventional means to deal with horse hooves, then for sure I'd not pass it. Would it matter? Not to me nor to my clients or their animals. So tell me, when people take the UK exam, is it a final exam or an entrance exam?

Tree

[goeslikestink]

you just answred it - you wouldnt becuase you wouldnt past it -- simple

[Tree]

P.S. "Tude" went out with "za" and "rents", back in the 80's.....

I'm a 60's model.

Tree

[Tree]

you just answred it - you wouldnt becuase you wouldnt past it -- simple


Can you answer the questions as to who takes the test and when? Between you and poopoo, that's about all that this is adding up to, really. :mad:

Tree

[goeslikestink]

you odnt have to get angry lifes to short of r that -- but critisum good or bad if one is a trimmer and defines it so much like you have say-- we use thomas 1 post for exsample --

then you have asked by your replys to tkae it iinto much further depth
then in by doing that you getting angry becuase you can olny go so far and you know it --

you dont know enough about shoes and shoeing -- neither do i as iam not a farrier-=- yes i have pul a sshoe of if need be -- no i havent trima ned and i know i could probably do it as i understand thr workings of a foot - but is my knowledge good enough to tweak - trim - adjust -- cut - par -- the good bit the wrong bit - and am i interfering with some thiing i know nothing about


the answer is yes -- i know but iam not a proffessional dont claim to be one
but i owuld never interfere or try to attempt to interere with the foot

no foot no horse - simple

i dont take offence by people that critistise -- iam not saying you dont do a good job either as i havent seen your work--

but then sometimes people can make them selves out to be marters either
by that i mean a --- god --- dot it my ways -- my ways best---

no way is best -- no ones a god -- a nd no one should paly god with a horses foot --

isay you wouldnt past it and oyu wouldnt --as it takes years to practice the art of a farrier -- under the guidance of a trianer and field work
which does cover trimming-- as trimming and dressing the foot is wahts leanrt first that much i do know==

so there fore you wouldnt pass the exam --the final one --

[goeslikestink]

and i will answer that bar shoe can give support to a fractured foot as wekll as a lammy one -- to suppport low heals there is many reasons for a bar shoe

but in all honesty as i ssaid you said -- i think -- i said you being a trimmer should know -- not i think its for blah blah in which case if i had you as a trimmer for self then that would lose me confidence in you for not knowing as you said -- i think ---

a good farrier will thats licenced would tell you why if it needs bar shoe and the prop and cons - of the bar shoe fitted the the horse that needed a bar shoe -- and how it it would help that horse in question and how in the short term -- it effects would be and also in the long term effects would be depending on what said horses needs were---

this then becomes and or could become the knowledge -- trianing -- and expreince of the vetinary part of there practice--

over here if theres something wrong with foot or leg a good farrier can do just as good as a vet -- becuase hes been trained to do so.. and for most part see more legs and feet than a vet would

[Appassionato]

"Snark" was introduce by you. The thread digressed into snark-isms back on the first page. I think sarcasm falls under that category. I'm not sure I had a "tude". I like answering questions and asking some too. Reflection is something everyone should do. I may not find what YOU think I should while reflecting. ;) :D
Tree

This was my only post on the first page, please highlight the snark comments made.

"In addition to Beastieslave's and poopoo's answer, I've been told it helps better stabilize brittle walls. Regular shoes have the ability to expand under pressure from what I have been given to understand.

Now, as far as why do some farriers use them more than others? Possibly they've seen more cases helped by them than other methods. Same could be said for farriers that just favor aluminums, or reverse shoes, or heartbars over eggbars...they feel that they have found an answer to many different problems."

Now in a later post (not the first page!!!!!!), I was truly just teasing with you in a playful manner. No harm was meant. You should be able to see the differences in the tone. I even commented that I was very "tired and just silly" at that time. You need to do something about your hate besides "last word" postings. I wish the best for you.

[Tree]

then you have asked by your replys to tkae it iinto much further depth
then in by doing that you getting angry becuase you can olny go so far and you know it --

I do ask and don't get any answers to those questions. That is frustrating to say the least. So how you arrive at the idea that I can only go so far because of what I know, part of learning is asking questions and getting answers. However, getting answers in here can be quite a challenge at times.

i dont take offence by people that critistise -- iam not saying you dont do a good job either as i havent seen your work--

but then sometimes people can make them selves out to be marters either
by that i mean a --- god --- dot it my ways -- my ways best---

no way is best -- no ones a god -- a nd no one should paly god with a horses foot --

isay you wouldnt past it and oyu wouldnt --as it takes years to practice the art of a farrier -- under the guidance of a trianer and field work
which does cover trimming-- as trimming and dressing the foot is wahts leanrt first that much i do know==

so there fore you wouldnt pass the exam --the final one --

I do thank you for answering the question about the exam. I wouldn't expect to pass a test I've not studied for. That's as simple as it can get. What would be the point of someone like me attempting to take that exam without any preparation for it? It is not a way to judge what I do know and do. I don't even think there is a single standard practiced here in the USA by trained Farriers or they'd be more unified than they are. And there is certainly no room for barefoot only trimmers in the USA Farrier organizations when it comes down to testing and credentials.

So at any rate, passing the UK exam isn't truly important under the circumstances. What was your original point to suggest that I should go over there and take it?

Tree

[Tree]

but in all honesty as i ssaid you said -- i think -- i said you being a trimmer should know -- not i think its for blah blah in which case if i had you as a trimmer for self then that would lose me confidence in you for not knowing as you said -- i think ---


You'd said:

tree if you are a trimmer -- then you should know that in most cases a heart bar shoe is to support the lamitic foot -- and please note i said most cases

I said that I 'think' bar shoes are used for because I've seen them used for so many different things. I've also been told different things when I asked why they were being used by owners, Vets and Farriers. I narrowed it down to bar shoes used to provide more support and more still if a frog plate were used (like with heart bar shoes). So, it boils down to you having an issue with me saying "IF"???????? :rolleyes: My goodness! Heck, if the OP had wanted to know more about shoes, why ask here? Why not visit horseshoes.com and get responses from those who shoe horses? The question was asked here and it was open to whoever wanted to respond.

a good farrier will thats licenced would tell you why if it needs bar shoe and the prop and cons - of the bar shoe fitted the the horse that needed a bar shoe -- and how it it would help that horse in question and how in the short term -- it effects would be and also in the long term effects would be depending on what said horses needs were---

It's very different here in the USA. Farriers can have initials after their name to show they have earned titles according to their skills and education. However, if you ask 10 of them about bar shoes you can get up to 10 different opinions as to their use and applications. The OP would no doubt discover the same if they asked every Farrier they talked to.

this then becomes and or could become the knowledge -- trianing -- and expreince of the vetinary part of there practice--

over here if theres something wrong with foot or leg a good farrier can do just as good as a vet -- becuase hes been trained to do so.. and for most part see more legs and feet than a vet would

Again, it's very different here in the USA.

Tree

[Tree]

This was my only post on the first page, please highlight the snark comments made.

Sorry, I should have separated those two sentences. I meant that I hadn't seen the word, "snark" until it appeared in your post...on page 3? But what could qualify as snarking started before back on page 1.

Now in a later post (not the first page!!!!!!), I was truly just teasing with you in a playful manner. No harm was meant. You should be able to see the differences in the tone. I even commented that I was very "tired and just silly" at that time.

Which post/page was that one on? If it is so easy to read the tone of posts, then none of this would've happened. I've been combing over the posts and in one of Lookout's posts a quote was used but there was nothing to say who'd said it. At any rate, it's so mixed up and tones varied throughout this thing. ;)

Tree

[EqTrainer]

In regards to the purpose of bar shoes, my previous and quite excellent farrier said they were helpful for stabilizing a broken coffin bone and otherwise of little use at all because of the way they interfere with hoof mechanism.\

He showed me once how the idea that they stabilize the fetlock/tendons was hooey... or at least that a bar shoe could do that more than a properly fitted regular shoe could. He basically felt they were right up there with wedges - useless except for in extreme cases.

[goeslikestink]

there you tree -- by us posting -- and your answers to mine postings

then others have learnt more -- and was a good debate--

as one knowledge goes ---

debates arnt getting at people - personal or otherwise debates are to find knowledge --

you know in life its all a learning curve in everything we do -- or say--

[Tree]

In regards to the purpose of bar shoes, my previous and quite excellent farrier said they were helpful for stabilizing a broken coffin bone and otherwise of little use at all because of the way they interfere with hoof mechanism.\

I've certainly seen examples that would support that they interfere with mechanism or else why would prolonged use of them lead to additional hoof problems? However, the hoof capsule acts as a cast to stabilize a broken coffin bone as well. As long as the horse feels the pain weighting the broken bone would create, they'll avoid weighting that foot. Subsequently the hoof capsule reacts to being weightless by shrinking in size and further stabilizes the fracture. Once the area heals more then the horse will gradually begin to use the foot again. This would be a horse that wasn't stall rested and became stir crazed because then it would probably lose its mind and reinjure the foot by being a spaz.

He showed me once how the idea that they stabilize the fetlock/tendons was hooey... or at least that a bar shoe could do that more than a properly fitted regular shoe could. He basically felt they were right up there with wedges - useless except for in extreme cases.

I agree whole heartedly about shoes and the bunk about them stabilizing the fetlock/tendons and anything else other than the hoof these things are affixed to. It's ridiculous to say that shoes support limbs because they ARE attached at the bottom of the foot. Between the shoe and the fetlock there are 2 joints (coffin/short pastern and short/long pastern) and 3 if you count the fetlock joint itself. So the shoe only supports the shape of the hoof capsule although that changes as the hoof grows out with regards to where the weightbearing surface falls in relation to the upper limb. Hoof growth naturally shifts forward which shifts the support base further from where it belongs in relation to the boney column.

How the hoof is balanced, wedged or level, also affects the dynamics of how the forces come to bear on the coffin bone and joint surfaces. And how that is affected also affects the connective tissues (tendons, ligaments and suspensories). Add to this how blood flow is altered too (refer to Pollitt's Hoof Studies video).

I used to do sheath cleaning for an old couple and one of their horses sustained a suspensory injury to a hind leg. As per their Vet's advice, they stalled the horse for what ended up being an entire year. So I got to see him during that time and noticed that he was shod. When I asked why they said it was for "support". Well, he was not weighting that leg...it was usually in the resting position because the heels of that foot were so damn tight (contracted). Comparing the conditions of that foot to the others made it clear that it was his worst foot too. So what kind of support does a shoe give if the horse won't spend much time standing on the foot?

Once they were given the "ok" to begin hand walking this horse it would break loose and go tearing around the place like a nut. He'd be lame afterwards. More stall time and less exercise....poor horse! The shoes had been "special" and the work done by the Vet's select Farrier. These people's regular farrier had over 40 years of experience with shoeing and advised them to pull the shoes while the horse was stall resting. They weren't doing him any good, as it was, particularly when the hoof was so contracted and certainly weren't adding any support to the limbs.

Tree

[Tree]

there you tree -- by us posting -- and your answers to mine postings

then others have learnt more -- and was a good debate--

as one knowledge goes ---

debates arnt getting at people - personal or otherwise debates are to find knowledge --

you know in life its all a learning curve in everything we do -- or say--

Yes, I agree. And I'll continue to say, "I think", as it relates to what I have to say at that time. In this case, it was due to having seen bar shoes used for a variety of reasons. Without consistency, one can't be too sure that there is only one use for bar shoes. ;)

Tree

[goeslikestink]

just to add -when a horse is to do road work for any length of time then it wil cause damage to the foot via wear and tear hence the need for shoes-- in uk we do far more road work than you do--

unshod horses over here are more likely to be in lightwork if on roads and ahrd surfaces-- and notice i said more likely--

the growth rate of ahorse hooof deends on each animal and the work carried out and wear and tear of the foot

the qualityof the horn and growth of the horn depnds on how the horse is in himself a sicky would have sicky feet for exsample not having the nutrition
as what its fed will alway show up in its feet what ever it eats its like your fingernails -
the wall of the foot is grown from the coronet band the frog takes part of the weight the wall the other --

the bulbs of heels expand when foot on the floor and the wall it self goes to a shape -- the sole of the foot when landed as the pressure hold all the little blood vessell like a hydralic -- goes all the way back up leg to heart---

the sole of the foot is a skin that covers the pedal bone

and the frog should be healthy and of good size good feet leed to good legs a decent knees takes the shock as its a shockabsorber for legs
got at run son wants comp and he satnding behind me and i ahve lost my trian of thought