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Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 10:47 AM
Who has seen anyone in the U.S. doing rollkur in the warm up ring at shows? What U.S. riders are practicing it? Does anyone have pictures or videos from this side of the pond?

Just curious...

nhwr
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:04 AM
I used to train with a very talented rider who would use rolkur as one of the tools in the tool chest, not for every horse or all the time. But it was used one one of my horses with very good results. I also have to say that, in practice it was not at all what is being represented on the internet. I am reluctant to identify this person because of all the negative input regarding this technique. But there have been pics of this rider posted on here and the funny thing was, many of the anti people raved about how correct the horses and rider were. Go figure...

Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:17 AM
I was actually looking for anyone who does what we've seen recently in the warm up videos from Europe. Not the short term use, but the long term training and warm up method displayed in the 11 video clips that are out here.

nhwr
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:22 AM
That is one of my points. What is shown in those clips is not a true representation of the long term training method as it was explained to me or as I experienced it.

Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:28 AM
Well, I really didn't want this to go down the argument road. What those videos showed was the use of rollkur for a very long time in a warm up with no apparent change. I was wondering if anyone over here is using that method.

I'm just looking to see how accepted it is over on this side of the pond at this time. That was the reason for my post. I'm very curious. It seems to be spreading in Europe, so I was curious if anyone had seen anyone doing it here, at major or small competitions, for extended periods of time in a warm up.

Just checking on the widespread use here in the U.S. I'm sure some people use it at home, but do they do it at a show? And if so, do they use the method for those extended periods of time?

Not stalking, just checking on the spread and apparent acceptance of the method, at the moment, here in the states.

Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:37 AM
Kind of sitting on a high horse there, aren't you WPF? Judging my question and another person's ability to answer?

It's not loaded. If people think it's a good training method, then they would have no problem replying. If they don't agree with the method, I would think they'd be even more likely to speak up as well.

I'm still just curious to see how many people here are doing it publicly at the shows. Not arguing about the issue of rollkur itself, just seeing if Americans are out there doing it in public.

(Oh, and based upon what I know from people who are over in Europe all the time, even if those videos were slightly doctored, people are using it in the warm up over there and for very long periods of time--and more people over there are doing it. Thus the reason to see how the trend it over here.)

ideayoda
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:41 AM
Watch warm up arenas and see for yourself. If the videos were doctored, then so are my eyes in real time (or is that time warp, the clock wasnt really ticking).......

nhwr
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:44 AM
I don't think the videos were doctored. However, I do think that a lot more goes into training those horses than what they show. As I understand it, this method is used very much the way von Ziegner describes it in his book; as a warm up method for high strung horses in a stimulating environment. In my expereince, it wasn't even used much at home. That is why I don't think it is really a training method. It is a tool that was used under certain circumstances.

My horse is pretty mellow at shows so we never used it in the warm up. But at home, she would fret about learning new things sometimes so it was used to keep her from locking her topline. As soon as she would give, usually about 3 to 6 strides, it was back to regular work. I asked my trainer why not warm her up like Anky? The response was "She isn't a powder keg at shows, she gives her back freely, so no need."

mzpeepers
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:00 PM
High on the conspiracy theory WPF? Please!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

If it's a good method there should be no shame in it should there be? The question might be perceived as loaded but (read for comprehension) there is really nothing in it but sheer curiosity. Nothing wrong with that.

A. P.
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:12 PM
Exactly WHICH videos where doctored/ Please post the link. I watched several of these and saw no signs of doctoring... it is extremely hard to doctor video so that change is undetectable

knz66
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:14 PM
Why would any trainer after reading what is being said on BB's lately ever admit openly that they use RK?

Any justifacation reasoning why is slapped down so hard its buried.. I can just see it. A list circulating, people going to farms and painting big red RK letters on the sides of barns of those who "admitted"....

Its your motives as to why you want to know who's doing what that raises the questions velet.

Frankly, as ideayoda said, go to shows. Then see if you can tell who is and isnt. What degree/percentage of rides they use RK. (true RK, not just deeper frames) Its not as easy to see as some would lead you to believe.

escondi
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:22 PM
I heard they were doctored, too, WPF - and that's why vids are not being posted now. I guess if you are high on conspiracy, lots of other people must be, too.

mzpeepers
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:32 PM
Yes, of course that has been MsCreepers comeback following me around the internet for 8 months. It's getting old. How about coming up with a new insult, dear?

I'm sorry???? Are you high on the paranoia trip too???
I suggest you drop the persecution crap and get a life. There are many, many people on the internet that have many discussions with many opinions to which manyother people can agree or disagree. If each time someone were to disagree with someone else or make a joke about something stupid that was said we could scream bloody murder claiming to be "followed around"....yikes! Sad, truly sad.

Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:40 PM
Egad, this board has become even more vile over time. Such vituperative displays really are rather boring.

I didn't really want trainer/rider names. I wanted to know if people around the country were doing using this method. I can't be everywhere so I can't see every horse show.

I think it's time to get back to the subject and if you can't supply any information one way or another, you might want to go out and start your own thread that has something to do with attacking each other or bizarre conspiracy theories. This one is about whether or not people are seeing it practised around the U.S.

This will be consistantly repeated as the direction of this discussion. All other unwanted replies will be ignored.

2WBs1TB
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:44 PM
Hey, WPF....if it walks like a duck, peeps like a duck and looks like a duck, must be a duck, right? :winkgrin:

mzpeepers
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:50 PM
O:D oh can i get in on this too? i always wanted to be followed. How exciting! I can feel the hate I can feel it! Peeps will you stalk me too, please?


:D :D :D Sorry can't do. Apparently I'm booked solid for the year. But perhaps I can see if I can fit you into my busy schedule? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

physical.energy
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:53 PM
hey, I'm a stalker too.... Now, who am I supposed to stalk?:lol: :winkgrin:

2WBs1TB
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:55 PM
Mzpeeping Tom

Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:56 PM
HIJACKING is now over.

Please return to the topic at hand. Have you ever seen anyone in the U.S. performing this in the warm up ring for extended periods of time.

Thank you for your well considered replies.

(To all others.... :rolleyes: )

knz66
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:01 PM
I can honestly say I have not see it being used at all in a warm up here locally although I do know a couple trainers that "attempt" it.

Better answer?

BornToRide
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:06 PM
hey, I'm a stalker too.... Now, who am I supposed to stalk?:lol: :winkgrin: Remember me??!! ........:winkgrin: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:06 PM
I can honestly say I have not see it being used at all in a warm up here locally although I do know a couple trainers that "attempt" it.

Better answer?

Yep, anyone doing it in public at a show says there might be a trend. That's what I'm looking for. But if they're attempting it, are they only doing a few strides, or a large portion of the warm up? And is the horse in the extreme hyperflexion position?

Thanks for the response! :D

knz66
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:12 PM
Nope - never seen the extreme posturing as posted in some of the videos... Sure a couple have gone really deep for a couple strides here and there, but I couldnt tell if it was the horse or the rider :)

WBLover
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:12 PM
I have not personally seen it here either, although I have not been to a ton of shows. I have seen, however, someone lunging their horse with the sidereins quite a bit too short, and a TD come over and ask her to loosen them before the horse stumbled and flipped! (True story!!)

WBLover
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:23 PM
iancleese--Did I ever say it was rollkur? Lil ol' me?? :D

Velvet
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:30 PM
Once again reeling this back in and on track (I hope). Just wondering if you're seeing anything at the shows (lets add under saddle/being ridden) that resembles the longer term use of hyperflexion at dressage shows in the United States.

Pommederue
Jun. 23, 2006, 01:49 PM
Once again reeling this back in and on track (I hope). Just wondering if you're seeing anything at the shows (lets add under saddle/being ridden) that resembles the longer term use of hyperflexion at dressage shows in the United States.
I don't really see anyone riding that way * at all * at least compared to the videos.

slc2
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:11 PM
i don't see much locally. i see a few people at the big shows such as fla. circuit who have worked with some of the prominent european trainers, i don't generally see the extreme extremes, just varying degrees of it. alot of people are somewhat behind the bit or vertical, but not rollkur.

stuge
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:16 PM
I personally haven't myself and I do alot more watching than riding at shows :D . I have seen some riders ride their horse "deep" which to me is much different that rollkur. Deep to me is long, low and a little behind the vertical.

The shows have included local shows (carolinas) but all USDF recognized, a few CDIs, and Dressage at Devon. I always make a point to watch the warmups.

I actually thought it was a very legit question by the OP. I myself, still on the fence about the topic (about whether it is considered abuse, not whether or not is correct) and would be interested to know about any trainers who either publically or not use rollkur. Not to badmouth them but to evaluate.

MeredithTX
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:20 PM
I too think it's a legit question. Not in an attacking way, but in a purely curiosity driven way.

And no, I haven't seen it used in my area, but there have not been that many FEI level riders at the shows around here.

mrmac
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:41 PM
I saw it at a show in Wyoming.....................Oh, wait, they were trying to create the peanut roller............it was a Western show.

Kareen
Jun. 23, 2006, 03:01 PM
I haven't seen it but then I've only been in the US for 4 months total so far. I can say I've seen some exaggeratedly 'tough' riding from a Canadian rider at some bigger shows here in Germany but no RK style. As to the videos being doctored I don't think so. They pretty much display what I've been talking about on the topic for weeks and I must say I am very pleased to see that more and more people seem to regard it as being ugly and bad riding instead of a 'winning method' which was pretty much the dominant and quite aggressively promoted view on this board a few weeks ago.

As to why nobody would openly admit to using it, that is great. I felt shocked about I.Werth and Ludger Beerbaum when they had that embarrassing TV-outing on WDR and I think it is great that it seems to return to where it came from - some behind the barndoor secret at least not politically correct enough to be mentioned in public :)

Dressage Art
Jun. 23, 2006, 07:36 PM
O:D oh can i get in on this too? i always wanted to be followed. How exciting! I can feel the hate I can feel it! Peeps will you stalk me too, please?

Are you sure? ;)

JSwan
Jun. 23, 2006, 08:47 PM
I haven't seen anything on par what what is going on in Europe except for one instance at a dressage clinic the other day. The rest of the warm ups I've seen haven't come close at all - but I don't go to all the shows; just a few.

4 year old horse - whose trainer "fresh from Germany" had this horse's nose between it's legs, spur spur spur - and rode that way for about 1/2 hour. Horse looked great before that - but once the crank and spank began - yuck. Clinician came out and worked with the rider for 45 minutes, off came the draw reins, off came the spurs, worked with her some more, and the horse was back to normal - actually - the horse was lovely.

That's the only thing that I've witnessed that so closely resembled the whole European thing. I don't know who this person was - only "fresh from Germany" whatever that means - this person may have been "fresh from a German prison" for all I know!

Take it or leave it - that's all I have that doesn't involve name calling or a 2nd gunman behind the grassy knoll.



Once again reeling this back in and on track (I hope). Just wondering if you're seeing anything at the shows (lets add under saddle/being ridden) that resembles the longer term use of hyperflexion at dressage shows in the United States.

Sannois
Jun. 23, 2006, 09:12 PM
I thought this was the slaughter thread! :winkgrin: :lol:
Rollkur at shows around here??? Nope only at WP shows!!! :winkgrin: :D :lol:

Sabine
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:43 PM
Are you expecting for folks that are in the know to offer up names or any information? Are you really meaning this question?? Or is this really very innocent (I have a hard time believing that...)

Well- for starters- anyone who can read in the US will not practice this in public- not right now - with all the 30 or so committed posters across the world fighting a big war against RK...no they won't.
Those folks business and livelyhood depends on it.
What they do behind closed doors is not your business. And that's what it will be like in the future as well...!
So- then what is this line of questioning about? Do you live so far from CDI's and rated shows that you can't see it for yourself? Are we starting a witchhunt?

The ones that know won't post or will be amazed- they will not say a word on these boards- let me assure you. So this thread is meaningless and just kind of a feel-good-thingie.
Hope you feel good!

DJ
Jun. 24, 2006, 07:13 AM
Gee Sabine, I actually do live too far to see CDI's here. Texas is a big state and not known for being the Dressage capital of the world. (Sorry fellow Texans, we can ride, but dang, we just don't have enough dressage going on.) I am curious about what is going on in the rest of the USA. I don't need names, dates or places, but it would be nice to know if as a nation of riders we are starting to adopt this method or are we continuing on in a more traditional fashion. I would be especially curious to hear what the warmups in Wellington and CA are like these days. No names or dates necessary.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 24, 2006, 08:28 AM
Any trend I've seen in the US is the same as slc and Fresh From Germany. The local FEI trainer goes to a clinic with a Big Name Trainer who practices rollkur. Local trainer brings it home, and cranks hers and her students' horses' noses around for six months or so. Usually it wears off when the next Nom Du Jour comes to town. If we are lucky the next big clinician is a Walter Zettl, and the trend dies quickly. The ugly downside of being an FEI trainer who relies on clinicians for training is being at the mercy of whoever is coming to the area.

It is kind of a blessing in disguise that those BNTs are so busy. They can't get over here enough to set up systemized or systemic training program.

Thomas_1
Jun. 24, 2006, 08:50 AM
I haven't seen anything on par what what is going on in Europe .....

That's the only thing that I've witnessed that so closely resembled the whole European thing. .

PLEASE PLEASE do not fall into the mistake of believing that is typical for European training. Its NOT . Whether you are in America, Germany, Spain, Austria or England its got nothing at all to do with good training and good riding.

I have taught classical riding and classical dressage for over 30 years and whilst many labour under the illusion that this technique is something to do with dressage, in my professional view rollkur is riding at its worst.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever! Those who seek to explain the videos are merely making excuses for disgusting riding and horsemanship - whether its a caputured moment in time or for excessive periods.

Its bad for horses, its bad for dressage and its time it was outed and its time that there were some half decent judges knocking such appalling riding down to the level it belongs! If there are riders out there doing it, then by all means out them and sit back and enjoy the arguments and attempts at defending what is in my mind purely and simply terrible riding.

I don't care what the likes of Anky van Grunsven has won, in my opinion she is an appalling rider. And whether the videos are cut spliced and edited or not, just go and watch her. Aside from the hyperflexion - her use of hands and curb are appalling and her use of stirrups is horrific - clearly she has horses that must be so troubled that they've switched off totally to what I can only descirbe as horrendous abuse and chronic torture.

I would like to think that if I didn't drag her off a horse of mine quick enough, that it would have the good sense and spirit to quickly dump her!

snoopy
Jun. 24, 2006, 08:57 AM
Thomas....well put! I too find her style of riding rather ugly. But that is my opinion...we all have our own style...but read this folks...I, ME, MYSELF, find her style abusive. I have seen it first hand at many european cdi's. I simply do not subscribe to it, I do not train with her, nor do I train with anyone that does. The Buck, Euro, Pound stops here. I simply will not contribute, in any manner, to a practice I do not agree with. :(

slc2
Jun. 24, 2006, 09:43 AM
i would like you fanatics to keep in mind that i write this as a person who does NOT train using rollkur, who works with a trainer who does not use rollkur, who has never worked with a trainer who uses rollkur, and who will NEVER ride their horse in rollkur. as you rev yourself up to abuse and insult me, keep this in mind. I DO NOT USE THIS METHOD.

there are plenty of people who ride this way in the united states and don't find it abusive, not everyone in the world agrees with the people who post here, in fact, when i talk to quite a few people in america, they find the whole discussion, as one person put it to me, 'Laughable - absurd'.

to think that everyone sees this issue the same way some posters here see it is patently ridiculous. as passionately as you may believe your ability to control people's thoughts or methods through your gossip, insults and accusations, you simply do not have that control and never have. you people believe anky is a horse killer and this is abuse and you are sure there is no other legitimate or humane way to look at it.

try to keep in mind that this is your OPINION, and it is NOT the opinion everyone else holds. and as much as you may insult and accuse people, there is no power on heaven or earth at this point that provides you with the ability to force people to agree with you, no matter HOW much you insult and accuse people.

in fact, i have the idea in mind that the more stridently you accuse people and the more hysterically you malign them, the more you are pushing people AWAY from your side. this is because your tactics are those of political control and are irrational, para-logical and well, basically disgusting.

i have gone to quite a few barns to try new horses in the past year, both in the USA and Holland, and some of them are ridden slightly deep, some of them much more deep, none of them are ridden similarly to how the top rollkur riders ride - and none of them seem particularly unhappy, coerced, abused or mistreated. despite all the insults and accusations that have been hurled at me on this board, i am very sensitive to the horse's state of mind and their happiness and comfort. and i simply do not see the wrecked bodies, abused minds and ruined training that certain people here are claiming always goes with rollkur.

i don't think most of those in the USA ride in the extremely exaggerated position of a couple of the top trainers in europe, but then, hardly any one in europe that does ride their horses really deep ride them THAT deep either.

Sabine
Jun. 24, 2006, 10:13 AM
Well put slc. Especially the fact that the more you judge the more you will be talking to yourselves....

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Jun. 24, 2006, 10:13 AM
Hmmmm...if I ride like I have my head up my butt does that count as rollkur?

stuge
Jun. 24, 2006, 10:58 AM
I'm with SLC and I tried so hard to get this point across on another board but I am not nearly so good at expressing myself in writing as SLC did.

The anti rollkur folks are labeling rollkur abusive and I think they are turning people off very quickly by doing this. I am sure that there are people that are using rollkur abusively, anky may be one of these but since I have not personally seen her myself, I am very hesitant to believe anyone. I am sure that there are people that use rollkur that do not use it abusively. I have turned into a rather big skeptic lately and it is because I have learned over the years that people will do whatever and use any means necessary to convince others that they are right. They will lie and they will twist facts and manipulate. The anti rollkur folks are beginning to get grouped into such extreme fanatical organizations like the extreme PETA activists.

If the anti rollkur folks just came from the position that is just incorrect, they would probably have a more successful campaign. While incorrect riding may not ever be "illegal" at shows, they may turn more people off of it. I think it is sad that they are focusing all this energy on rollkur when there are so many much worse and much more common "abuses".

The FEI is in a very tough position, we can't blame them. How can they monitor something like this? I have talked to lots of people that believe that rollkur is the same thing as just deep riding. How far behind the vertical does the nose have to be to be rollkur? How long do you have to ride that way for it to be abusive? It just isn't so black and white. I know lots of people that feel that just riding in spurs and a whip is abusive and they laugh when they hear those same people calling rollkur abusive. Anything can be abusive in the wrong hands.

If rollkur is such a growing trend, how come we hardly ever see any videos of anyone other than Anky? Showing pictures and videos of Anky all the time comes across as vindictive.

Pommederue
Jun. 24, 2006, 11:10 AM
Thanks stuge. I totally agree. The anti-rolkur people, to me, appear fanatical. I can make my own judgment about how deep or above the bit I want to ride my horses, according to how that particular horse 'feels.' I don't need anyone to dictate to me what they may consider abuse. The only one that is being terribly abused is Anky for her 'extreme' success.

DocHF
Jun. 24, 2006, 11:28 AM
Thomas, you should turn your considerable expertise to topics of real torture.
The anky rant is so old its moldy.

Velvet, you little sh*tstirrer.
No one can admit to using the technique in todays "climate" in N.Am.
But I have seen one very prominent USA rider using rough and what I consider abusive methods in the warm up at a CDI show in Canada (Palgrave).

Thomas_1
Jun. 24, 2006, 12:04 PM
I'm not sure if SLC's posting was aimed at me or someone else? But I hadn't actually read a posting anywhere suggesting that they thought she might use that technique and I haven't seen any personal insults of her here. Neither had I seen anyone suggest that Anky was a horse killer but heck it makes a much better story if you can grossly exagerate and whip up the mob!

So I find it wryly amusing that it should initiate a little flock of posters hiding being their assumed anonymity to step on the bandwagon to personally criticise me and others that have a view about it being wrong to stick a horse's head so far between its legs that its up its backside and how dare we suggest that this just might be wrong or abusive.

And rather than use logical rational argument much easier just to use childish retort and suggest that those who hold opinion might merely be fanatical
Its also interesting to note that all those who attempt to hold the moral highground do so hiding behind assumed anonymity.

I find that to be accused of fanaticism from that ilk is hilarious as it is to be grouped in the ranks of peta. For goodness sake I'm a farmer that breeds stock to EAT! I hunt shoot and I train horses and I don't hide behind silly forum names.


"The downright fanatic is nearer to the heart of things than the cool and slippery disputant"

sabryant
Jun. 24, 2006, 12:07 PM
Good comments slc, sabine, docHF, stuge, Pommederue! Thanks for the breath of fresh air amidst the polluted, judgemental attitudes of the majority on this thread.

DJ
Jun. 24, 2006, 01:24 PM
But are people doing it in the warmups at the shows in the US? No judgement, just wanting to know. (you never know, I might like rollkur and be looking for supporters. ;))

Touchstone Farm
Jun. 24, 2006, 02:01 PM
i would like you fanatics to keep in mind....
and as much as you may insult and accuse people, there is no power on heaven or earth at this point that provides you with the ability to force people to agree with you, no matter HOW much you insult and accuse people.

in fact, i have the idea in mind that the more stridently you accuse people and the more hysterically you malign them, the more you are pushing people AWAY from your side....

SLC, methinks you could take some of your own advice...

Touchstone Farm
Jun. 24, 2006, 02:21 PM
I'm one who isn't sure if zwangsjacke is abusive or not. It's ugly and unnatural and to me an incorrect way to train dressage. What can the FEI do? Start enforcing judges (perhaps more training and education) so they are judging toward the ideals of dressage? Perhaps supporting the judges so politics and money aren't in the "way." (I know I live in a fantasy world sometimes...)

What's happening on the international scene to me is discouraging and I'm becoming less and less interested. Instead of feeling excited about "record breaking scores," I feel turned off to the sport. Good thing I love riding and learning on a personal level.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 24, 2006, 02:34 PM
The good (?) news, Thomas, is that no one is particularly anonymous. We pretty much stalk each other until we know who everyone is and where they can be found. So, if you need insider information, you must join the ranks of the PMers, the private messaging system where the real scoop happens.

I think the name calling is ironic as well. In one fell swoop we are polluted judgmental fanatics and poor dear Anky is abused. Furthermore, if we want to appear "reasonable" so that more people will listen, we should keep our mouths shut.

No worries, I've said over and over Rollkur is probably not abusive. But, it's probably not dressage either.

Karoline
Jun. 24, 2006, 03:29 PM
I have seen something that is between BTV and very deep and rollkur and used to "stretch the back" but is held for the entire ride with few stretches or opp for the horse to come up.

I have seen this practiced by at least four trainers, two who are very qualified. have seen this way of riding used on some horses that were not by any stretch of the imagination "hot" and in fact one that I know better and who tends to be more of a behind the leg guy.

I think if you saw it you would say it is not rolkur and would question the quality of the riding. I have known some of this trainers for some years and 2 of them I use to think of as really superb riders - and correct riders. I think that there is a following of the trend as someone mentioned and that however good riders these are, they do not have all the knowledge to use this method - which while I disagree with it- I also think would take more then a 2 or 3 day clinic to really understand well.

nhwr
Jun. 24, 2006, 04:03 PM
have seen this way of riding used on some horses that were not by any stretch of the imagination "hot" and in fact one that I know better and who tends to be more of a behind the leg guy.

Hot horses are very often "behind the leg" because many riders are too timid to really put their legs on a hot horse :yes:

DocHF
Jun. 24, 2006, 04:10 PM
but heck it makes a much better story if you can grossly exagerate
My dear Thom, you've amply demonstrated your ability to do this. I just think its a waste to continue to do so. Maybe even a bit childish.
Retortical, in fact. oh I could go on, but it doesn't get any better...
thats DOCTOR horsefeathers to YOU

Event4Life
Jun. 24, 2006, 04:43 PM
Ok, I have a few questions:

1) To what degree of overbending/deep riding do you consider "Rolkur?" I've never actually seen this technique used, in real life or otherwise, so am curious.

2) To those who are 10000% against Rolkur, do you consider riding "long, low and deep" also abusive? If so, why? IMO, if this type of riding is done correctly, it can actually be beneficial. But again, only if its done correctly and not in abundance.

Ok I'm sure I had some more but can't think of them right now...excuse me for being a bit clueless, but I'm a lower level Event rider and though I've heard alot about this technique, esepcially recently, I don't really know many facts. Thanks for any answers.

stuge
Jun. 24, 2006, 04:58 PM
I think the name calling is ironic as well. In one fell swoop we are polluted judgmental fanatics and poor dear Anky is abused. Furthermore, if we want to appear "reasonable" so that more people will listen, we should keep our mouths shut.

I am one of the ones that have finally spoken up and expressed my opinion and now my opinion is "a childish retort" and not a "logical rational arguement" to quote Thomas. We are no more anonymous than anyone else on this board. This is when people appear fanatical, when they absolutely can not realize or understand a different opinion (when I say understand I don't mean that you should understand why we feel that way but just understand that people have different opinions.

The antirollkurs are just as bad, if not worse, than the neutrals or prorollkurs about jumping down people's throats and attacking them personally when there is a difference of opinion.

There was a post that implied that slc either practiced rollkur or trained with someone that did. Scroll back up a bit.

I don't see anyone attacking you Thomas or calling you names. I don't see anyone acting any more childish than you and your supporters. I just hear people saying they are getting sick of hearing about rollkur and that they don't think it is abusive and that Anky seems to be the one being attacked. If you want to do good for your cause you need to listen to the people that do not agree with you. It is no good to preach to the choir. If we are saying ya'll are sounding fanatical then we feel that ya'll are sounding fanatical. That's not name calling, that's how we feel and if you want to change something we are the people that you need to be listening to not the people that already agree with you unless you have a need to be told how right you are over and over again. The rest of us, you are just turning off. You need a different approach.

bjrudq
Jun. 24, 2006, 05:12 PM
"If the anti rollkur folks just came from the position that is just incorrect, they would probably have a more successful campaign."

an awful lot of antirollkur folks come EXACTLY from that place.

it doesn't matter.

stuge
Jun. 24, 2006, 05:18 PM
"If the anti rollkur folks just came from the position that is just incorrect, they would probably have a more successful campaign."
an awful lot of antirollkur folks come EXACTLY from that place.
it doesn't matter.

It does though matter though. Labeling a method as abusive is going to come across a whole lot different than saying a method is incorrect especially when it isn't so black and white. Like I have said before, there are people that believe you shouldn't even be riding a horse much less ever tapping them with a whip or using spurs on them.

Jumping in and calling it abusive is going to turn off the very many of us skeptics that don't just take a few pictures and agree because so and so "said so"!

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 24, 2006, 05:22 PM
Stooge,

Did you come up with your name or did your other two partners? By the way, that's not calling names, that's just how I feel :)

Actually, I agree with you that rollkur is probably not abusive. I think the FEI is in a tough position, but they did come up with a good definition of rollkur, if you truly want to know where they are drawing the line. I think anti-rollkur people would go down a better road if they looked at how it impacts the purity of the gaits, rather than how it is physically abusive. You may have missed that thread last week. I don't have a cause, I don't have supporters, and I am not out to change anything, least of all someone's mind.

siegi b.
Jun. 24, 2006, 05:26 PM
There was never a doubt in my mind that it would come to this point.... People on this board are finally tired of all the posturing and preaching done in support of the never-ending RK threads.

Let's face it folks, this issue isn't going to be solved here whether you're pro or con. So that leaves you and everybody else with what? A bad taste in your mouth from all the nastiness that has been generated on both sides of the fence.

I sometimes wish that the same energy you put into this subject with absolutely no results whatsoever, could be generated for something more worthwhile.... and I'm sure that you all know what that could be in your particular situation.

Time for some chocolate maybe?

sabryant
Jun. 24, 2006, 06:25 PM
Stooge,

Did you come up with your name or did your other two partners? By the way, that's not calling names, that's just how I feel :)

Actually, I agree with you that rollkur is probably not abusive. I think the FEI is in a tough position, but they did come up with a good definition of rollkur, if you truly want to know where they are drawing the line. I think anti-rollkur people would go down a better road if they looked at how it impacts the purity of the gaits, rather than how it is physically abusive. You may have missed that thread last week. I don't have a cause, I don't have supporters, and I am not out to change anything, least of all someone's mind.

"STOOGE" that's not name calling? I believe it is.

Where on this earth, KJ, did you hear it said that the gaits were impure? Who told you that? Someone on this board or on some other forum???? I think the FEI committee has never said that. I think the judges must not think that...having given two world record scores. I think it is hyperbole from people that look for/in any way/shape/form a critique of anything that isn't classical, and God forbid that this method is winning by leaps and bounds! If it was not "winning" you would never hear a peep from anyone.

Sabine
Jun. 24, 2006, 06:28 PM
Stooge,

Did you come up with your name or did your other two partners? By the way, that's not calling names, that's just how I feel :)

.

A fine example for VERY NASTY and UNPRODUCTIVE!

Sabine
Jun. 24, 2006, 06:30 PM
I am one of the ones that have finally spoken up and expressed my opinion and now my opinion is "a childish retort" and not a "logical rational arguement" to quote Thomas. We are no more anonymous than anyone else on this board. This is when people appear fanatical, when they absolutely can not realize or understand a different opinion (when I say understand I don't mean that you should understand why we feel that way but just understand that people have different opinions.

The antirollkurs are just as bad, if not worse, than the neutrals or prorollkurs about jumping down people's throats and attacking them personally when there is a difference of opinion.

There was a post that implied that slc either practiced rollkur or trained with someone that did. Scroll back up a bit.

I don't see anyone attacking you Thomas or calling you names. I don't see anyone acting any more childish than you and your supporters. I just hear people saying they are getting sick of hearing about rollkur and that they don't think it is abusive and that Anky seems to be the one being attacked. If you want to do good for your cause you need to listen to the people that do not agree with you. It is no good to preach to the choir. If we are saying ya'll are sounding fanatical then we feel that ya'll are sounding fanatical. That's not name calling, that's how we feel and if you want to change something we are the people that you need to be listening to not the people that already agree with you unless you have a need to be told how right you are over and over again. The rest of us, you are just turning off. You need a different approach.


I liked your last post Stuge and I don't blame you for this one. Glad you revealed your stance- even though that might not have been in your favor...!

DocHF
Jun. 24, 2006, 06:45 PM
I don't see anyone attacking you Thomas
ah c'mon I told him I thought he was wasting his time and talents on a moldy issue!
And thats how I really feel!

Touchstone Farm
Jun. 24, 2006, 07:03 PM
"Where on this earth, KJ, did you hear it said that the gaits were impure? Who told you that? Someone on this board or on some other forum???? I think the FEI committee has never said that. I think the judges must not think that...having given two world record scores. I think it is hyperbole from people that look for/in any way/shape/form a critique of anything that isn't classical, and God forbid that this method is winning by leaps and bounds! If it was not "winning" you would never hear a peep from anyone.

I don't think anyone has to "tell" anyone that on this BB. Anyone with well-trained eyes can see that, as two examples only, the gaits do become impure and the hind leg doesn't come through as much. It has the tendency to look more like saddleseat dressage. If one attended the USDF conference with Klaus Balkenhol and the symposium and saw the skeleton painted on the outside of the horse AND saw Steffen Peters demonstrate --on purpose, with KB's direction -- the negative that happens when he rode the lovely stallion, San Remo, in a forced manner, one would have had a very good demo of how gaits and the horse can be impacted negatively.

I also don't think that just because something is winning makes it right. Look at the Quarter Horse halter classes. Judges rewarded the pumped up bodies and the tiny tea cup feet, and the breeders followed suit. Has that improved the conformation, soundness, movement and future of the breed? I think not. Or the peanut-rolling outline the QH judges were rewarding (although now the rules are supposedly changing). And I have owned and appreciate the QH, so don't jump on me like this is QH bashing.) I just think the "because it is winning so it must be right" is a fairly weak reason to justify a method.

I don't know why SOME judges are rewarding this; others are very concerned about this, do NOT reward this, and have discussed this with the FEI including Mariette Withages.

Time will tell with what happens. I always think discussion is a good thing. It's when people don't say anthing...that situations aren't corrected, let alone addressed...

Touchstone Farm
Jun. 24, 2006, 07:05 PM
"Where on this earth, KJ, did you hear it said that the gaits were impure? Who told you that? Someone on this board or on some other forum???? I think the FEI committee has never said that. I think the judges must not think that...having given two world record scores. I think it is hyperbole from people that look for/in any way/shape/form a critique of anything that isn't classical, and God forbid that this method is winning by leaps and bounds! If it was not "winning" you would never hear a peep from anyone.

I don't think anyone has to "tell" anyone that on this BB. Anyone with well-trained eyes can see that, as two examples only, the gaits do become impure and the hind leg doesn't come through as much. It has the tendency to look more like saddleseat dressage. If one attended the USDF conference with Klaus Balkenhol and the symposium and saw the skeleton painted on the outside of the horse AND saw Steffen Peters demonstrate --on purpose, with KB's direction -- the negative that happens when he rode the lovely stallion, San Remo, in a forced manner, one would have had a very good demo of how gaits and the horse can be impacted negatively.

I also don't think that just because something is winning makes it right. Look at the Quarter Horse halter classes. Judges rewarded the pumped up bodies and the tiny tea cup feet, and the breeders followed suit. Has that improved the conformation, soundness, movement and future of the breed? I think not. Or the peanut-rolling outline the QH judges were rewarding (although now the rules are supposedly changing). And I have owned and appreciate the QH, so don't jump on me like this is QH bashing. I just think the "because it is winning so it must be right" is a fairly weak reason to justify a method.

I don't know why SOME judges are rewarding this; others are very concerned about this, do NOT reward this, and have discussed this with the FEI including Mariette Withages.

Time will tell with what happens. I always think discussion is a good thing. It's when people don't say anthing...that situations aren't corrected, let alone addressed...

sabryant
Jun. 24, 2006, 07:20 PM
[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm]I don't think anyone has to "tell" anyone that on this BB. Anyone with well-trained eyes can see that, as two examples only, the gaits do become impure and the hind leg doesn't come through as much. It has the tendency to look more like saddleseat dressage. If one attended the USDF conference with Klaus Balkenhol and the symposium and saw the skeleton painted on the outside of the horse AND saw Steffen Peters demonstrate --on purpose, with KB's direction -- the negative that happens when he rode the lovely stallion, San Remo, in a forced manner, one would have had a very good demo of how gaits and the horse can be impacted negatively.

Sorry Touchstone, I wouldn't, personally, go by that symposium for anything! A horse, all of a sudden, put in that position would most likely have problems adjusting to the balance. A horse that has been worked slowly to that postition has no trouble with the balance. My eye is farily well trained and I don't see any gait impurities in the videos that I have viewed so far. Some horses come out of the womb unable to track up. If you want to see some impure gaits look at the Olympic ride of KB's p/p tour, and then come back and tell me about impure gaits.

bjrudq
Jun. 24, 2006, 07:53 PM
It does though matter though. Labeling a method as abusive is going to come across a whole lot different than saying a method is incorrect especially when it isn't so black and white. Like I have said before, there are people that believe you shouldn't even be riding a horse much less ever tapping them with a whip or using spurs on them.

Jumping in and calling it abusive is going to turn off the very many of us skeptics that don't just take a few pictures and agree because so and so "said so"!


what i meant was, that even when the anti rollkur folks say, like kathy johnson just did twice in the last page, that they don't think rollkur is abusive, the pro rollkur crowd still pisses and moans about their opinions, and accusings them of hating anky or being jealous of anky.

so it DOESN'T matter WHY you are against rollkur, or even if you are on the fence: if you don't agree that the current crop of rollkur riders' horses have pure gaits and are the bestest ever, and never make mistakes, then, once again, you are an anky hater who has no business expressing an opinion unless you've competed gp internationally.

that's what i mean by, "it doesn't matter" why someone is against rollkur; you'll automatically howl about it no matter what their reasoning(or even their mere questioning) of it was.

nero
Jun. 24, 2006, 08:06 PM
I don't think anyone has to "tell" anyone that on this BB. Anyone with well-trained eyes can see that, as two examples only, the gaits do become impure and the hind leg doesn't come through as much. It has the tendency to look more like saddleseat dressage.

in relation to this why then can you crowd NEVER answer the following;

1) painted black and lingh are trained rollkur and DO overtrack, in fact painted black has one of the best hindend engagements i have seen for along time.

2) wansuela suerte DOES NOT overtrack in ext trot, in fact, she's worse than salinero. Why is that? she's trained classically with no rk. The same with Brentina.

When salinero doesn't overtrack much it's all "oh my Anky's training has made his gaits impure'. when its a horse whose training you embrace you turn a blind eye and go all silent. If you are going to bemoan the disintergration of dressage then you should at least consider ALL the examples of how this is supposedly happening instead of just being selective and trying to explain it away as a result of a training method you don't like !!

nero
Jun. 24, 2006, 08:09 PM
Thomas, you do yourself and your argument a disservce when you use words such as 'apalling' to describe Anky's riding, even her most avid detractors would admit she's is a more than capable rider.

Lets see some video or pics of you riding GP, so we can see how its really suppose to be done?????

stolensilver
Jun. 24, 2006, 08:16 PM
I'm still completely awed that anyone who saw those videos can say that they prove that RK is used for prolonged periods of time with no breaks. None of those videos last more than 4 minutes in total! I also don't see anything that upsets me in those videos. They make me realise how off the leg a GP horse has to be and how skillful riders are at that level. But proving that RK is abusive and used for long periods of time? Nope.

Pommederue
Jun. 24, 2006, 09:48 PM
if you truly want to know where they are drawing the line. I think anti-rollkur people would go down a better road if they looked at how it impacts the purity of the gaits, rather than how it is physically abusive.


I don't think anyone has to "tell" anyone that on this BB. Anyone with well-trained eyes can see that, as two examples only, the gaits do become impure and the hind leg doesn't come through as much. It has the tendency to look more like saddleseat dressage.

Saddleseat? Okay, we're really not seeing the same thing. The saddleseat horses I've seen are all stargazers with dropped backs. I don't know how on earth those people even sit in those saddles!
Sorry but I'm also not seeing rampant 'impure' gaits any more or less than there was 20 years ago. Some horses lose rhythm, others don't; rollkur or not. And while we're on the subject of impure, my cat has a lateral walk. I've also seen a neighbor's dog have a lateral trot! No more rollker for them!:lol:

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 24, 2006, 09:57 PM
Where on this earth, KJ, did you hear it said that the gaits were impure?

It was pretty interesting to watch all those rollkur warmup videos with stop action. There were times when I couldn't tell what gait the horse was in (with or without stop action). The trots are all very positive DAP. Now you can say that's good, but a four beat trot is not classically considered a "pure" trot. There were no parallelagrams with the hind legs. The front legs were marching out in front, and the hocks not matching them. The piaffes ridden in rollkur were invariably on a pedestal with the hocks trailing, and often hocks higher than the knees. The canters tended to be flat and somewhat lateral. I didn't see much walk work in rollkur, but I was not very impressed with either Bonfire's or Salinero's walk.

I agree that Salinero's balance' piaffe is not as bad as Schmidt's balance' piaffe. I suspect that stepping out in the piaffe is not the fault of rollkur riding. I do believe that a horse almost always goes into the pedestal in piaffe when behind the vertical.

Do the impure gaits show up when they are showing? They ride them up, so it's not as obvious. I believe that it takes a magician to ride a horse up and in pure gait after using a training method that certainly impacts the purity of the paces. How can that possibly work? Just getting those horses back out in front of the vertical has got to be tough. Are they being penalized at all anymore for being poll low or behind the vertical?

I am hoping that Stuge has a sense of humor, my apologies. I was responding to his or her remark that calling people fanatics, polluters, etc. is ok as long as that's how you really feel about them. Anytime you attack the person, not the issue, that is an ad hominem argument, a logical fallacy.

sweetfern
Jun. 24, 2006, 10:31 PM
Great post KJ.

I had been wondering the same thing (in an abstract way) - you were able to put *it* into words (wish that I was that sophisticated!).

How can someone go from "rollkur" training to the "performances" that we see? Boggles the mind (mine anyways).

Where is that middle ground? Middle Earth? Do we need Hobbits, Elves and Gandolf now?

*sigh*
Now that would be great fodder for dicussion! But, how do we get there??

sabryant
Jun. 25, 2006, 12:34 AM
[QUOTE=Kathy Johnson]It was pretty interesting to watch all those rollkur warmup videos with stop action. There were times when I couldn't tell what gait the horse was in (with or without stop action). The trots are all very positive DAP. Now you can say that's good, but a four beat trot is not classically considered a "pure" trot. There were no parallelagrams with the hind legs. The front legs were marching out in front, and the hocks not matching them. The piaffes ridden in rollkur were invariably on a pedestal with the hocks trailing, and often hocks higher than the knees. The canters tended to be flat and somewhat lateral. I didn't see much walk work in rollkur, but I was not very impressed with either Bonfire's or Salinero's walk.




At any given moment, during the action of an aid, a horse can react to that aid in any of the ways that you mention above. Theil has sellected her moments much to the detriment of Anky. I expect that if any one of us had videos made of our warm-ups and picked through them frame by frame, we would see similar reactions by the horse whether the poll is up or deep.

Theil loses me when she says that the horse needs it's head/neck to balance. Yes he does galloping cross country over rough terrain or jumping. If the horse still needs it's head/neck to balance at the FEI level, why do we make the horse to have a FRAME. A frame is a frame! It does not osillate.
It should remain STEADY, soft and light. If by this time of FEI, the horse needs it's h/n to balance, we could not keep any kind of frame up or deep. So this, to me, means that the horse has changed his balance and not longer needs the last 2/3's of the h/n. Now, he is stepping his hind legs into the neck in front of the withers. It looks to me that Anky's horses are balanced to step here and is the reason that she can put the last 2/3's of the neck anywhere she wants it at any given time.

Sabine
Jun. 25, 2006, 12:40 AM
her name is Ulrike Thiel and she is a bit manipulating - to say the least...actually she takes the medium FILM and uses it to her advantage to the utmost degree- making some of the hinterland folks wonder what the hell is going on...well what's going on is a well edited video strip that smoothly repeats the same very short minutes again and again...she didn't have enough video to make a case for it - so she had to doctor it...and that she did quite well.
It takes about 5 watching sessions to disseminate..so don't feel bad.

proves the point though that someones has some major vendetta going on here...eh??? I do not want to be involved in that...juck!

sabryant
Jun. 25, 2006, 12:46 AM
SAB, I think you're right and I don't even know the story. Just to look at the line she draws of the horse down hill, then in other frames the horse is so CLEARLY uphill (but she sure doesn't draw a line there showing the uphill balance)...and all of those little circles surrouding specifics that I'm sure happens to every horse at the same points of a correction/aid is given no matter where the face is ridden. I think this woman is vicious to say the least! sab

Moll
Jun. 25, 2006, 02:06 AM
If the horse still needs it's head/neck to balance at the FEI level, why do we make the horse to have a FRAME. A frame is a frame! It does not osillate.
It should remain STEADY, soft and light.

Don't know about you, but the head and neck carriage to me is a result of the rest of the horse being in balance, not something you "make the horse have".

Sabine
Jun. 25, 2006, 02:32 AM
Don't know about you, but the head and neck carriage to me is a result of the rest of the horse being in balance, not something you "make the horse have".

I think you two are close in how you see things...I am more and more convinced that expressing what we see and feel is soo hard and presents a bigger barrier than expected...:(

Thomas_1
Jun. 25, 2006, 08:26 AM
Good postings Kathy Johnson.......

appalling means causing consternation or dismay

Abuse means the willful infliction of injury, unreasonable confinement, restraint or intimidation, with resulting physical harm, pain or mental anguish

claire
Jun. 25, 2006, 09:51 AM
her name is Ulrike Thiel and she is a bit manipulating - to say the least...actually she takes the medium FILM and uses it to her advantage to the utmost degree- making some of the hinterland folks wonder what the hell is going on...well what's going on is a well edited video strip that smoothly repeats the same very short minutes again and again...she didn't have enough video to make a case for it - so she had to doctor it...and that she did quite well.
It takes about 5 watching sessions to disseminate..so don't feel bad.

proves the point though that someones has some major vendetta going on here...eh??? I do not want to be involved in that...juck!


Maybe we should put this in the OTHER thread Velvet provided (conspiracy theories of RK/Anky) ;)

Seriously though, maybe Velvet was just trying to clarify a definition of RK for her thread (as opposed to deep)
Using the Thiel video as an example as it were?
So often these discussions get off track because some start to talk about deep training as opposed to RK/EXTREME Deep w/lateral flexions :confused:

Sabine, just a question from a "hinterland folk" :lol:
Are you saying that the RK training as in the Thiel video DOES NOT EXIST?

I am not asking whether the Thiel video was "doctored"...just is it a representation of RK/Extreme Deep method?

Also, IF the Thiel video WAS doctored/misrepresented wouldn't there be a big lawsuit in the wings????

siegi b.
Jun. 25, 2006, 10:17 AM
Sabine - wenn ich diese Argumente so lese, dann kommt es mir vor als ob manche von diesen Leuten sich wie ein Bulldog in diese Sache verbissen haben und einfach nicht mehr loslassen koennen.

On the other hand, we have to thank Thomas for his generosity in sharing the English lesson with us, and Claire for her never-tiring efforts in trying to keep the RK subject alive.

This would indeed be a very dull forum without the likes of you.

Thomas_1
Jun. 25, 2006, 10:49 AM
On the other hand, we have to thank Thomas for his generosity in sharing the English lesson with us, .

Immer wenn Sie eine englische Lektion wünschen, bitten Sie einfach und ich bin glücklich zu verbinden. Möglicherweise würden einige Lektionen in den Weise und in der guten Anmut nicht amiss auch nicht gehen

siegi b.
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:00 AM
Quote by Thomas 1 "Möglicherweise würden einige Lektionen in den Weise und in der guten Anmut nicht amiss auch nicht gehen." ?????

Maybe you should stick with the English lessons?

DocHF
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:07 AM
wenn ich diese Argumente so lese, dann kommt es mir vor als ob manche von diesen Leuten sich wie ein Bulldog in diese Sache verbissen haben und einfach nicht mehr loslassen koennen
When I read these arguments, it occurs to me that some people are like a bulldog which has bitten and cannot let go.


Immer wenn Sie eine englische Lektion wünschen, bitten Sie einfach und ich bin glücklich zu verbinden. Möglicherweise würden einige Lektionen in den Weise und in der guten Anmut nicht amiss auch nicht gehen
Whenever you want an English lesson, simply ask and I will happily oblige. Possibly the lessons in wisdom and grace will not go astray.

OK, Thom and Siegi? In some cultures it is considered rude to speak in a foreign language that most would not understand. Admittedly, my translation is very bad, but you can provide the proper meaning of your words in english? because the way I'm reading it in both languages, it sounds sarcastic.

Sabine
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:57 AM
Sabine, just a question from a "hinterland folk" :lol:
Are you saying that the RK training as in the Thiel video DOES NOT EXIST?

I am not asking whether the Thiel video was "doctored"...just is it a representation of RK/Extreme Deep method?

Also, IF the Thiel video WAS doctored/misrepresented wouldn't there be a big lawsuit in the wings????

All I am saying is that these are strips of video that are maybe 2 max 3 minutes long and they are played over and over- giving you the impression that this is a very LONG ride without break, reward or relief for the horse.
I am not involved in the details to know if and why and that there is anything going on between Thiel and SJ- but I would not be surprised if there was.

And therefore I don't believe this is an accurate representation of how RK is trained or applied. And therefore I am highly skeptical.

Karoline
Jun. 25, 2006, 02:28 PM
http://cvm.msu.edu/Dressage/Upload/Clayton%20archives%20for%20WWW/USDF_July03.pdf

This study shows that collection is not achieved simply by lowering the
haunches relative to the forehand; it also requires active elevation of the
forehand through the front limbs’ pushing harder against the ground.

Some good information on the transfer of the center of gravity and the use of the horse front end, including head and neck.

egontoast
Jun. 25, 2006, 02:50 PM
The plot thickens. CAn we have a link to the doctored video? Thanks.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 25, 2006, 04:44 PM
I could not understand most of the lines, whorls and circles in some of those videos. I needed a legend to get much out out of that, but then I usually need a legend, map, translator or dictionary.


I expect that if any one of us had videos made of our warm-ups and picked through them frame by frame, we would see similar reactions by the horse whether the poll is up or deep.

I know if we picked through my videos frame by frame, we would be afraid, very afraid. I agree that it is no one is always perfect. But, you are going to see/feel differences when the poll is up or when the poll is deep. They are going to be fairly dramatic. The more the poll is low or the horse is BTV, the more dramatic the differences.

For instance, when I school piaffe and try to keep the horse in slightly in front of the vertical, my issues are going to be that the horse creeps forward and gets a little shuffly. He is NOT going to step backward and he is NOT going to pedestal, leaning over the shoulder. He is going not going to have a flat or longitudinal piaffe. He is going to to be more uphill, with more sit. If he sits too much, he might levade, something I haven't seen the rollkur horses do.

Here are the FEI rules for piaffe: In principle the height of the toe of the raised foreleg should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other foreleg. The toe of the raised hind leg should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other hind leg.

Here are some pictures that may break every copyright infringement law in the world. In the first set, you can see horses in piaffe poll low, moderately behind the vertical to greatly behind the vertical. In all cases, the front foot that is in the suspension phase is not higher than the hind foot that is up. It is a longitudinal piaffe, with little sit. This is not classically correct nor does it adhere to the FEI rules. Sometimes the hind foot is even higher than the front foot. That is just wrong (I have an extreme example, but can post it later). The horses are on a pedestal, some more than others, with the front stance leg reaching backward. That is also incorrect. The front stance leg should be perpendicular to the ground.

In the second set of pictures, the horses are ridden in piaffe slightly in front of, to well in front of the vertical. The hind feet and the front feet are where they should be. The front stance leg is perpendicular to the ground; the horses are not on a pedestal.

http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset1.jpg

http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset2.jpg


When the neck is shortened, the balance of the horse changes. This impacts the purity of the gaits.

I haven't studied it enough, but I have a sneaking suspicion that rollkur may really help the passage on some horses. It makes sense--longitudinal balance, and the back really up.

claire
Jun. 25, 2006, 07:34 PM
Anytime you attack the person, not the issue, that is an ad hominem argument, a logical fallacy.

:winkgrin: Too true Kathy!!!

Thank You for your interesting post...well thought out and written as usual! :)

Touchstone Farm
Jun. 25, 2006, 08:13 PM
Sorry Touchstone, I wouldn't, personally, go by that symposium for anything! A horse, all of a sudden, put in that position would most likely have problems adjusting to the balance. A horse that has been worked slowly to that postition has no trouble with the balance. My eye is farily well trained and I don't see any gait impurities in the videos that I have viewed so far. Some horses come out of the womb unable to track up. If you want to see some impure gaits look at the Olympic ride of KB's p/p tour, and then come back and tell me about impure gaits.

Whether you take anything from the symposium as educational is up to you. It was one example.

I don't believe I said the measurement for a pure trot has to do with overtracking. I would never say that. You can have horses overtracking by 24 inches and still have an impure trot. And conversely, you can have a horse that doesn't track up and the trot is still pure. Perhaps that's part of the problem -- some people don't really understand what is purity in gaits?

egontoast
Jun. 25, 2006, 08:24 PM
Ifway it'sway otnay ootay uderay Iway illway anslatetray orfay ouyay ethay oldway astersmay intoway igpay atinlay.

Ideray ouryay orsehay aightstray andway orwardfay!

Sabine
Jun. 25, 2006, 08:34 PM
Sabine - wenn ich diese Argumente so lese, dann kommt es mir vor als ob manche von diesen Leuten sich wie ein Bulldog in diese Sache verbissen haben und einfach nicht mehr loslassen koennen.

On the other hand, we have to thank Thomas for his generosity in sharing the English lesson with us, and Claire for her never-tiring efforts in trying to keep the RK subject alive.

This would indeed be a very dull forum without the likes of you.

:)
Well at least you pass my cursory German test- very correctly written...not so Mr Thomas- he should stick to English- his German is majorly rusty and bumpy...:)

Pommederue
Jun. 25, 2006, 08:47 PM
Here are the FEI rules for piaffe: In principle the height of the toe of the raised foreleg should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other foreleg. The toe of the raised hind leg should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other hind leg.

Why is it so detrimental to the horse if you don't exactly match the rulebook's criteria while training? Perhaps the FEI should supply more of a 'guideline' book instead of a 'rulebook' e.g., the height of the toe of the raised foreleg should come someplace above the fetlock and below the knee.' Or, 'the pole should be the highest point, give or take an inch.' Then people wouldn't get their breeches in such a bunch when someone is not perfectly performing to their expectations. I strongly believe that not all horses were cut from the same mold and to expect all horses conform exactly to one precisely spelled out rule is difficult.

If deep riding helps Anky and her imitators, so what? If you don't think it helps, but it in fact hurts, then what? The horse is no longer showable and permanently retired out to a life of trail riding or eating grass? Are these 'hurt' horses being sold per lb?

Tonja
Jun. 25, 2006, 09:00 PM
In response to the links that Kathy Johnson posted:

http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset1.jpg

http://www.kathyjohnsondressage.com/piaffeset2.jpg

What a great photo comparison Kathy Johnson! :cool:

The first set of horses give the impression of front heavy teeter-totters from poll to tail with the front legs and withers as the fulcrum. Because the heavy weight of the heads and necks are hanging downward off the front, it appears as though their heads and necks are working as levers and actually lightening the haunches and lifting them upward, giving the horses an appearance of tippy-toeing behind. Even in the photographs where the haunches are somewhat more bent, they don’t appear to be carrying a significant amount of weight behind.

In striking contrast, in the second set of photographs, it is clear that the forehands are actually being lifted and that the lifting is being produced by generous engagement of the haunches. The horses’ croups are actually lowering to the ground instead of the hind hooves merely being lifted up toward the croup. The muscles of the horses’ hindquarters and backs are working to lift their necks and forehands and because of this, the horses are carrying their heads and necks stretched up and balanced over their elevated shoulders and the lowered haunches can carry the weight efficiently.

Karoline
Jun. 25, 2006, 09:46 PM
"The muscles of the horses’ hindquarters and backs are working to lift their necks and forehands and because of this, the horses are carrying their heads and necks stretched up and balanced over their elevated shoulders and the lowered haunches can carry the weight efficiently."

yes, and if you read the link I posted, the front limbs, abdomen muscles and "sling" muscles we have discussed in the bridging the back thread, are also working much harder to lift the forehand and shift the balance center back.

nero
Jun. 25, 2006, 10:24 PM
in relation to this why then can you crowd NEVER answer the following;

1) painted black and lingh are trained rollkur and DO overtrack, in fact painted black has one of the best hindend engagements i have seen for along time.

2) wansuela suerte DOES NOT overtrack in ext trot, in fact, she's worse than salinero. Why is that? she's trained classically with no rk. The same with Brentina.

When salinero doesn't overtrack much it's all "oh my Anky's training has made his gaits impure'. when its a horse whose training you embrace you turn a blind eye and go all silent. If you are going to bemoan the disintergration of dressage then you should at least consider ALL the examples of how this is supposedly happening instead of just being selective and trying to explain it away as a result of a training method you don't like !!
How come no one wants to, or can, answer my question?????

Sabine
Jun. 25, 2006, 10:36 PM
Very good Question Nero...me thinks that it's painful to answer. It is not in line with the partyline politics...it does not fulfill the argument the anti-group is trying make so desparately.

At least we are all honest enough around here to agree that Anky's horses are not showing signs of severe abuse, broken spririts and crazed minds.
However I think it is time to acknowledge that a good GP horse can be made of lots of different fabrics. And just like Tonja and KJ are getting into a love fest about the minute details of the correct Piaffe- *and I do admire the amount of detail and analysis they are willing to invest on this* I do believe that every horse is an individual and that horses vary vastly in the way they can be best trained and brought along. And of all of those only a very few make it to the top and show the tencacity to stay at the top and improve.

I think PB and Lingh have great trots- and superb hind ends...however when you add up everything Sal still beats them....
I think Brentina and Wansuela Suerte do not have great hindends- their croups seem a tad stiffer and do not lower as easily- they have been trained with a training system that does not overemphasize elasticity- it emphases harmony- a request and a willing response from the horse.
Anky and RK does push the envelope- the envelope of elasticity, and yes at times the gaits look a tad unrythmic- but it is like when you watch the warmup of a topnotch Baseball pitcher...in order to get maximum strength and rotation out of the prized arm- he will 'overreach' in the warmup- to make the extreme bearable and the regular seem like nothing....

There is a member here- Belambi - who did pro-vaulting. He agreed with the fact that overstretching the body's exercises and boundaries makes the actual test like a cake walk.

I think some of that theory is behind RK- expressed in maximum gymnastical training.

nero
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:17 PM
Very good Question Nero...me thinks that it's painful to answer. It is not in line with the partyline politics...it does not fulfill the argument the anti-group is trying make so desparately.

At least we are all honest enough around here to agree that Anky's horses are not showing signs of severe abuse, broken spririts and crazed minds.
However I think it is time to acknowledge that a good GP horse can be made of lots of different fabrics. And just like Tonja and KJ are getting into a love fest about the minute details of the correct Piaffe- *and I do admire the amount of detail and analysis they are willing to invest on this* I do believe that every horse is an individual and that horses vary vastly in the way they can be best trained and brought along. And of all of those only a very few make it to the top and show the tencacity to stay at the top and improve.

I think PB and Lingh have great trots- and superb hind ends...however when you add up everything Sal still beats them....
I think Brentina and Wansuela Suerte do not have great hindends- their croups seem a tad stiffer and do not lower as easily- they have been trained with a training system that does not overemphasize elasticity- it emphases harmony- a request and a willing response from the horse.
Anky and RK does push the envelope- the envelope of elasticity, and yes at times the gaits look a tad unrythmic- but it is like when you watch the warmup of a topnotch Baseball pitcher...in order to get maximum strength and rotation out of the prized arm- he will 'overreach' in the warmup- to make the extreme bearable and the regular seem like nothing....

There is a member here- Belambi - who did pro-vaulting. He agreed with the fact that overstretching the body's exercises and boundaries makes the actual test like a cake walk.

I think some of that theory is behind RK- expressed in maximum gymnastical training.

GOOD POINTS.

Until these anomalies in the anti-camp's arguments can be addressed I just think their arguments revolving around what rk does to the final product, i.e supposed gait issues etc, are obviously based on an irrational dislike of the method and not actually any logical, educated argument, and I will treat these arguments like the BS they are.

Karoline
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:33 PM
How come no one wants to, or can, answer my question?????

I dont believe I am educated enough to answer with assurance but I would think that what is wonderful is that Brentina and Consuela are not the most talented horses in the world, yet through training they have achieved Olympic and international heights.

I would say that Painted Black and Lingh are horses who are phenomenally talented to begin with. I believe that without hyperflexion they would still be phenomenally talented. I dont think they are more talented because of it.

sabryant
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:37 PM
I don't think anyone has to "tell" anyone that on this BB. Anyone with well-trained eyes can see that, as two examples only, the gaits do become impure and the hind leg doesn't come through as much. It has the tendency to look more like saddleseat dressage. If one attended the USDF conference with Klaus Balkenhol and the symposium and saw the skeleton painted on the outside of the horse AND saw Steffen Peters demonstrate --on purpose, with KB's direction -- the negative that happens when he rode the lovely stallion, San Remo, in a forced manner, one would have had a very good demo of how gaits and the horse can be impacted negatively.

I also don't think that just because something is winning makes it right. Look at the Quarter Horse halter classes. Judges rewarded the pumped up bodies and the tiny tea cup feet, and the breeders followed suit. Has that improved the conformation, soundness, movement and future of the breed? I think not. Or the peanut-rolling outline the QH judges were rewarding (although now the rules are supposedly changing). And I have owned and appreciate the QH, so don't jump on me like this is QH bashing.) I just think the "because it is winning so it must be right" is a fairly weak reason to justify a method.

I don't know why SOME judges are rewarding this; others are very concerned about this, do NOT reward this, and have discussed this with the FEI including Mariette Withages.

Time will tell with what happens. I always think discussion is a good thing. It's when people don't say anthing...that situations aren't corrected, let alone addressed...

Touchstone

I didn't mix up the difference any more than you did in the above post. I simply answered your post as it was posted. It would be very nice if you could answer NERO's question???? Great post Sabine...very thoughtful and accurate!!

Sabine
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:39 PM
I would say that Painted Black and Lingh are horses who are phenomenally talented to begin with. I believe that without hyperflexion they would still be phenomenally talented. I dont think they are more talented because of it.

the questions is: will they be better performers in the long run...that is the only question...will they be able to PERFORM on command - when it counts- under any conditions- at a top quality...the jury is still out on that.

sabryant
Jun. 25, 2006, 11:41 PM
I dont believe I am educated enough to answer with assurance but I would think that what is wonderful is that Brentina and Consuela are not the most talented horses in the world, yet through training they have achieved Olympic and international heights.

I would say that Painted Black and Lingh are horses who are phenomenally talented to begin with. I believe that without hyperflexion they would still be phenomenally talented. I dont think they are more talented because of it.


I think Brentina has awesome talent in there somewhere!

Drvmb1ggl3
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:43 AM
This may sound weird, but as I was watching the Holland v Portugal debacle today and I couldn't help but think of the Rollkur (Anky etc) v Classical (Nuno Oliviera etc) trainwrecks on the COTH Dressage forum.
But probably my most enduring memory of the whole affair was the shot towards the end of the game with Deco and Van Bronckhorst sitting next to each other in the tunnel after both having been sent off. No matter the warfare and total mayhem that was being waged, they were still mates.
Maybe there's a metaphor in there somewhere for the dressage forum.

Though I must say Erin does a better job than that Russian referee.:)

nero
Jun. 26, 2006, 01:31 AM
I think Brentina has awesome talent in there somewhere!

Brentina obviusly has some extraordinary talent, especially her trainability and tractability (sp? is it even a word??hehe), as does Wansuela Suerte, and their riders are also extremely gifted BUT why is it that people here blame Anky's training methods when HER horse displays problems, but when those same problems are evident in other horses, trained the classical way ten it it merely the restrictions of that particular horse?????? For anyone who feels they ARE educated enough to answer this SIMPLE question, ca you have a go?????

And Karoline, if you are not educated to answer my simple question, then why are you educated enough to criticise Anky's training methods for how they impact on the gaits/way of going of Salinero (particularly when they clearly DON"T impact the same way on some of her other mounts????).

Can anyone see the double standards here?

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:24 AM
Brentina obviusly has some extraordinary talent, especially her trainability and tractability (sp? is it even a word??hehe), as does Wansuela Suerte, and their riders are also extremely gifted BUT why is it that people here blame Anky's training methods when HER horse displays problems, but when those same problems are evident in other horses, trained the classical way ten it it merely the restrictions of that particular horse?????? For anyone who feels they ARE educated enough to answer this SIMPLE question, ca you have a go?????

And Karoline, if you are not educated to answer my simple question, then why are you educated enough to criticise Anky's training methods for how they impact on the gaits/way of going of Salinero (particularly when they clearly DON"T impact the same way on some of her other mounts????).

Can anyone see the double standards here?

Raising my hand here....I can!

Sabine
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:41 AM
Nero- I think it IS the training method. I do agree that there is an awesome horse inside Brentina...lots of that is visible in the showring- some of it is not...it might not have been easy to get to or not developed. It was not reachable with the undoubtedly excellent method she was trained with.

Can we not just accept that some things are the way they are?

I think it's hugely important to show the utmost respect to those riders we are talking about...as I have no less respect for Debbie as I have for Anky...and I would die to have a chance to meet and talk to either one of them and ask them about how they achieved the great success they did.

I really think every rider has a set of skills and talents and in Anky's case she comes also equipped with a husband who loves her, supports her and designed a training method for her that works for her...how great is that.
That's really all that there is to say. The AvG camp is not trying to sell their method- they are not even documenting it or writing about it - they just apply it- and if you are lucky enough to be a student you get to explore it and learn it. If you don't like it you can leave...it's a free country.

Same with Debbie- she has her own system- her own technique- those that ride with her swear by it and follow it to the T.
Given any horse and any rider- the true match in heaven is the one that really fits...where the horse responds to the rider in a connected and familiar fashion and where the rider feels at home. From that - everything else develops....

nero
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:49 AM
Um, I'm confused.

1) I wasn't questioning Debbie's or anyone elses talent, I think they are all fabulous riders. Just because someone notices a weakness in a horse does not mean they are having a dig at the trainer.

2) I disagree it IS the training method all the time, I think it is sometimes down to the individual horse and if Salinero wasn't trained RK he may still have the limited overtrack he does in the ext trot - that's wy I objkect to people saying RK ruins a horse's gaits because plenty of classically trained horses also display those inadequacies - I'm confused because I thought you said the same thing ealrier, i.e about individual horses having thier own limitations.

Anyway its late, going now..............this is all just too weird

Sabine
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:54 AM
you're right- my post was confusing.

I meant to say:
1. training can resolve some stuff that otherwise turns into a limitation...or
2. sometimes training can not fix a limitation- because that's just how the horse is made
3. and yes- there are limitations- I think in the horse and in the rider that weigh together, and I guess the least limitations there are - the better the score...

Good Nite!!

Karoline
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:05 AM
To dissect piaffe and passage as others here do. I do feel qualified to dislike a technique that I find abusive to the horse physical and mental welfare. Like many much more qualified riders and trainers are, even after the FEI Lausanne report.

I do believe that Brentina and Wansuela are great horses, but I am sure you will agree that all horses are not created equal and so I am not insulting either when I remark that there are horses more athletic then they.

What I would like to see is a Hubertus Schmidt with a Salinero and see what happens. Wether he loses some performance, or wether regardless of the training, he would still be an outsanding horse.

Noir
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:07 AM
How come no one wants to, or can, answer my question?????

I don't think I have personally said that rollkur training causes the horse to have no overtrack at extended trot. However, I do object to extended trots in general being awarded very high points when it does not overtrack.

I think overtracking has a lot to do with the length of the horse's trunk compared to his hindlegs. That does not change with rollkur.

Theresa

Thomas_1
Jun. 26, 2006, 04:44 AM
OK, Thom and Siegi? In some cultures it is considered rude to speak in a foreign language that most would not understand. Admittedly, my translation is very bad, but you can provide the proper meaning of your words [i]in english? because the way I'm reading it in both languages, it sounds sarcastic.

You are of course quite correct about it being impolite and ordinarily its not something I would resort to but as Siegi saw fit to post in German and for what I consider to be a wholly bizarre and not understood reason as this is an English speaking forum! I thought it pertinent to let her know that I at least understood what she attempted to say and made comment which you quite rightly judge to be sarcastic response. Won't do it again though as you are absolutely right its rude and I'd say its rude in any culture! Can I please be forgiven though if I stick to English and English spelling on this American forum? ;)

Velvet
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:17 AM
Trying...to...kill...this...thread.


Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....


Every time I tried to get it on track, it just wouldn't stay there. I'm now hoping it will all just end.

Thank you to those who responded to my question. I'm actually happy to see that it's not prevalent here at this point and time. I'm hopeful that our judges will be educated enough (either they are now, or will be shortly) to actually penalize people with horses moving incorrectly so we can all be sure that we're on the same page with our training.

BTW, wouldn't it be nice if all horses were back to the vertical and had the poll highest and the accepted norm was not to have all horses broken at the third vertebra?

But that's another discussion.

Thank you for your assistance, and for those of you wanting to beat the rollkur issue into the ground again, please see the other thread I provided for rollkur and conspiracy theories.

stuge
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:41 AM
BTW, wouldn't it be nice if all horses were back to the vertical and had the poll highest and the accepted norm was not to have all horses broken at the third vertebra?

I still think that is the accepted norm in a perfect world with perfect riders and perfect horses and perfect trainers. It's not about the head, it's about the rest of the horse anyway. The head is a result. Actually I get so sick of hearing about the head. The horse could be going in twenty different directions but oh, the horse isn't "behind the vertical".

DocHF
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:45 AM
on track? OK, can I please be forgiven for translating Velvet into Elmer Fudd?


Evewy time I twied to get it on twack, it just wouldn't stay dere. I'm now hoping it will all just end. Dank you to dose who wesponded to my qwestion, uh-hah-hah-hah. I'm actualwy happy to see dat it's not pwevalent here at dis point and time. I'm hopeful dat our judges will be educated enough (eider dey are now, or will be shortwy) to actualwy penalize peopwe wif horses moving incorwectwy so we can all be sure dat we're on de same page wif our twaining.

MeredithTX
Jun. 26, 2006, 10:09 AM
Can we not just accept that some things are the way they are?

I think it's hugely important to show the utmost respect to those riders we are talking about...as I have no less respect for Debbie as I have for Anky...and I would die to have a chance to meet and talk to either one of them and ask them about how they achieved the great success they did.

I really think every rider has a set of skills and talents and in Anky's case she comes also equipped with a husband who loves her, supports her and designed a training method for her that works for her...how great is that.
That's really all that there is to say. The AvG camp is not trying to sell their method- they are not even documenting it or writing about it - they just apply it- and if you are lucky enough to be a student you get to explore it and learn it. If you don't like it you can leave...it's a free country.

Same with Debbie- she has her own system- her own technique- those that ride with her swear by it and follow it to the T.
Given any horse and any rider- the true match in heaven is the one that really fits...where the horse responds to the rider in a connected and familiar fashion and where the rider feels at home. From that - everything else develops....

Great post Sabine! And you pointed out that the AvG group isn't marketing their methods, and it makes me curious why. (Not for any vindictive reason - just simply curious!) At any rate, I agree with you about the importance of showing respect to the riders we discuss here. I too would be thrilled to ever meet them!

Velvet
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:13 AM
I still think that is the accepted norm in a perfect world with perfect riders and perfect horses and perfect trainers. It's not about the head, it's about the rest of the horse anyway. The head is a result. Actually I get so sick of hearing about the head. The horse could be going in twenty different directions but oh, the horse isn't "behind the vertical".

Um, yeah, well DUH. (At least it should be a "duh" that people ride a horse back to fron.) Then again, a hand that it not kind puts a horse curled up and broken at the third when they are driven into an unforgiving hand. So the head is indicative of the hands that hold the bit.

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:21 PM
Um, yeah, well DUH. (At least it should be a "duh" that people ride a horse back to fron.) Then again, a hand that it not kind puts a horse curled up and broken at the third when they are driven into an unforgiving hand. So the head is indicative of the hands that hold the bit.


Velvet

This statement is just sooooooo NOT true when deep or RK is trained correctly. This is one of the main difficulties posting on these threads...minds are made up in Never-ever-land because of radical statements like yours. I think your OP question was answered long ago in this thread when someone said that if an American did train rollkur, they would never admit to it becaue of the shallow knowledge of most Americans about the process of training deep and/or RK.

sm
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:31 PM
oh lordy, can we keep it civil. One problem is rollkur is anything BTV to those horrrendous videos showing the horse jammed into the chest non-stop, being spurred/jabbed along, and "never" let out of that position.

I hate to link to the videos yet again... don't we remember them?

Velvet
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:49 PM
Velvet

This statement is just sooooooo NOT true when deep or RK is trained correctly. This is one of the main difficulties posting on these threads...minds are made up in Never-ever-land because of radical statements like yours. I think your OP question was answered long ago in this thread when someone said that if an American did train rollkur, they would never admit to it becaue of the shallow knowledge of most Americans about the process of training deep and/or RK.

Hon, I wasn't talking about rollkur. I was talking about horses going around in a dressage test that are broken at the third, not going with the poll as the highest point.

I am NOT going to get into the rollkur cage match that is going on out here. Seriously, I think some of the people need to get some new alters. They need to find some wrestling names. :eek:

I prefer sitting at home and watching it on TV, rather than joining the fray or even sitting on the sidelines throwing popcorn (unlike Eggy who loves to throw everything and anything at hand ;) ) , that way I can turn off the TV and stop watching any time I want. :lol:

sm
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:01 PM
hi sabryant,

I remember jammed to the chest and spurred (of course, or the position would not hold) not for a stride or two but the entire training session. I think we could be visualizing/comparing apples to oranges. I hate to go back to reference the videos, that means first I have to find them.... EDITED TO ADD: after reading last Velvet's post now I'm more convinced you and velvet are referencing different things. Duh... It's so hard when one word (rollkur) is used to describe everything BTV.

Sabine
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:09 PM
here they are- and they are as stated before artfully cut together small snippets of warmup- none lasting longer than 2 minutes max.....many are rewound over and over again....

This will become apparent if you watch them a couple of times in a row:


http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ulrikethiel

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:13 PM
hi sabryant,

I remember jammed to the chest and spurred (of course, or the position would not hold) not for a stride or two but the entire training session. I think we could be visualizing/comparing apples to oranges. I hate to go back to reference the videos, that means first I have to find them.... EDITED TO ADD: after reading last Velvet's post now I'm more convinced you and velvet are referencing different things. Duh... It's so hard when one word (rollkur) is used to describe everything BTV.


Hi sm

I think you are right. I thought she wanted to stay on subject about RK and American's who train it and not about preformances that show a broken neck at the 3rd vertabra, which I do not see when the Rk/deep is trained correctly.

I did see that video too, and I just cannot see the abuse.

Velvet
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:24 PM
I started on the topic of American's who practice rollkur and are doing it in the warm up ring. Purely out of curiosity.

I moved on to just throwing out that one of the standards in dressage is having a horse who's poll is the highest point. Not a rollkur subject, just a thing that is in the show ring and isn't meeting the defined standards. Usually it's an issue of the rider's hand. This was just a quick aside since the subject of rollkur has been beaten to death out here. And trust me, people, that horse is DEAD. Everyone who is one side of the fence is not about to move because of the arguments out here.

I wasn't truly trying to change topics, nor was I making a comment on rollkur.

I do, however, agree that rollkur/hyperflexion is something different than the older school of long and low/deep riding. The language does seem to need to be better defined, especially if people are going to be arguing about it. (Yes, that's another aside. Still not a comment on rollkur, just something I've noticed in the discussions I participated in when we talked about riding deep all those years ago. Seems to be a huge difference between that and what I see in the videos you're all arguing about.)

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:42 PM
I started on the topic of American's who practice rollkur and are doing it in the warm up ring. Purely out of curiosity.

I moved on to just throwing out that one of the standards in dressage is having a horse who's poll is the highest point. Not a rollkur subject, just a thing that is in the show ring and isn't meeting the defined standards. Usually it's an issue of the rider's hand. This was just a quick aside since the subject of rollkur has been beaten to death out here. And trust me, people, that horse is DEAD. Everyone who is one side of the fence is not about to move because of the arguments out here.

I wasn't truly trying to change topics, nor was I making a comment on rollkur.

I do, however, agree that rollkur/hyperflexion is something different than the older school of long and low/deep riding. The language does seem to need to be better defined, especially if people are going to be arguing about it. (Yes, that's another aside. Still not a comment on rollkur, just something I've noticed in the discussions I participated in when we talked about riding deep all those years ago. Seems to be a huge difference between that and what I see in the videos you're all arguing about.)

Very well then. There still seems to be this little problem that no one has yet to answer Nero's question on page six and waiting???

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 26, 2006, 04:00 PM
I think that you all must be on each others' ignore lists, because I have seen these questions answered several times in this thread.



1) painted black and lingh are trained rollkur and DO overtrack, in fact painted black has one of the best hindend engagements i have seen for along time.

A horse may easily overtrack but does not necessarily have pure gaits. In fact, it's pretty common for a horse with a huge walk and a great overstep to be lateral, pacy or two beat in the walk. This would be considered an impure or irregular walk. Overtracking does not mean purity of the gaits. Purity of the gaits is the rhythm: a four beat walk, a two beat trot and a three beat canter.

Engagement does not always impact the purity of the gaits either. Engagement impacts the tempo, the speed of the pattern of the footfalls, but not the rhythm, the pattern of the footfalls.


When salinero doesn't overtrack much it's all "oh my Anky's training has made his gaits impure'. I am not sure where you heard this. Overtracking has nothing to do with purity of the gaits (see above). When I discuss the purity of the gaits, I look at the rhythm of the walk. I look at the association or disassociation of the diagonal pairs in the trot (DAP or diagonal advanced placement, and negative DAP). I look at the rhythm of the canter, knowing the canter can be four beat in two very different ways, and watching for it sometimes to become two beat and lateral.


when its a horse whose training you embrace you turn a blind eye and go all silent. If you are going to bemoan the disintergration of dressage then you should at least consider ALL the examples of how this is supposedly happening instead of just being selective and trying to explain it away as a result of a training method you don't like !!

I think that all methods have their own pitfalls. There are definitely some issues with the purity of the gaits when the horses are ridden deep. There are definitely some issues with horses always ridden poll high and never stretched. Many of the things we see that are "wrong" are merely strength issues, such as the swaying side to side in the piaffe shown by both Schmidt's horse and Salinero.

I hope that answer helps, Nero. If not, or if you have more questions, I am game to try again.

Backing up to whoever said, "what difference does it make if we train them one way as long as they come out correctly in the show ring?" That opens the doors for some really heinous training methods where the end justifies the means. Are we training to show or showing to train?

Velvet
Jun. 26, 2006, 04:02 PM
I'm not seeing a question, I'm seeing a statement. I would guess that's why no one is responding. Seems like they are asking a question they already feel they have an answer to, so in that case it would be rhetorical.

Thomas_1
Jun. 26, 2006, 04:38 PM
Excellent posting again Kathy

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 05:11 PM
I think that you all must be on each others' ignore lists, because I have seen these questions answered several times in this thread.




A horse may easily overtrack but does not necessarily have pure gaits. In fact, it's pretty common for a horse with a huge walk and a great overstep to be lateral, pacy or two beat in the walk. This would be considered an impure or irregular walk. Overtracking does not mean purity of the gaits. Purity of the gaits is the rhythm: a four beat walk, a two beat trot and a three beat canter.

I am not sure where you heard this. Overtracking has nothing to do with purity of the gaits (see above). When I discuss the purity of the gaits, I look at the rhythm of the walk. I look at the association or disassociation of the diagonal pairs in the trot (DAP or diagonal advanced placement, and negative DAP). I look at the rhythm of the canter, knowing the canter can be four beat in two very different ways, and watching for it sometimes to become two beat and lateral.



I think that all methods have their own pitfalls. There are definitely some issues with the purity of the gaits when the horses are ridden deep. There are definitely some issues with horses always ridden poll high and never stretched. Many of the things we see that are "wrong" are merely strength issues, such as the swaying side to side in the piaffe shown by both Schmidt's horse and Salinero.

I hope that answer helps, Nero. If not, or if you have more questions, I am game to try again.

Backing up to whoever said, "what difference does it make if we train them one way as long as they come out correctly in the show ring?" That opens the doors for some really heinous training methods where the end justifies the means. Are we training to show or showing to train?

KJ
I think the thing is that Anky is slammed for RK for all the problems decided by the anti rk side and the classical people are held up to be saints. There are problems on both sides and at least you will admit to it. I just don't see the impure gaits that you see anymore than I do the with the classical people. I think it is a style of horse that is popular for dressage, at the moment, that no matter how you train it will have the same disfavor among the traditionalists. It is the having of the disfavor so one-sided that is the problem.

Having been traditionally trained, when I saw a horse extend the trot and the front/hind legs do no match in the stride, it was called impure by traditional standards. In the same way, when I don't see the haunches lower in the transitions from extended trot back to collected trot. Is that a transition at all in the purest sense of the traditions we learned? The things that we were taught in traditional training are not "reality" for the horses that are being trained today. Not the classical trained horses or the RK trained horses. I don't look at it as something lost or as something abused. I like to look at it as progression for a new style of horse. Maybe 20 years from now, the horses will be bred for the ability to be trained more in the traditional codes. But for now, to blame a system of training on a horse's way of going holds vain endeavor to slander when the same style horse trained from the traditional codes goes much the same way.

Velvet
Jun. 26, 2006, 05:29 PM
While I'm very flattered to have started a thread with so many replies, I just wish this thing would DIE! DIE! DIE!

:lol: :lol:

Can I gleefully stomp on the topic? I think so!

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 05:38 PM
While I'm very flattered to have started a thread with so many replies, I just wish this thing would DIE! DIE! DIE!

:lol: :lol:

Can I gleefully stomp on the topic? I think so!


Why would you want it to die?? Hopefully, we ALL learn from each others posts and, hopefully, at the end of the day when can call each other "matey."

slc2
Jun. 26, 2006, 06:43 PM
and i have some ocean front property in iowa to sell you.

the definition of 'pure gait' needs work, it does not include sitting or engaging in the transition.

nero
Jun. 26, 2006, 07:47 PM
I think that you all must be on each others' ignore lists, because I have seen these questions answered several times in this thread.




A horse may easily overtrack but does not necessarily have pure gaits. In fact, it's pretty common for a horse with a huge walk and a great overstep to be lateral, pacy or two beat in the walk. This would be considered an impure or irregular walk. Overtracking does not mean purity of the gaits. Purity of the gaits is the rhythm: a four beat walk, a two beat trot and a three beat canter.

Engagement does not always impact the purity of the gaits either. Engagement impacts the tempo, the speed of the pattern of the footfalls, but not the rhythm, the pattern of the footfalls.

I am not sure where you heard this. Overtracking has nothing to do with purity of the gaits (see above). When I discuss the purity of the gaits, I look at the rhythm of the walk. I look at the association or disassociation of the diagonal pairs in the trot (DAP or diagonal advanced placement, and negative DAP). I look at the rhythm of the canter, knowing the canter can be four beat in two very different ways, and watching for it sometimes to become two beat and lateral.



I think that all methods have their own pitfalls. There are definitely some issues with the purity of the gaits when the horses are ridden deep. There are definitely some issues with horses always ridden poll high and never stretched. Many of the things we see that are "wrong" are merely strength issues, such as the swaying side to side in the piaffe shown by both Schmidt's horse and Salinero.

I hope that answer helps, Nero. If not, or if you have more questions, I am game to try again.

Backing up to whoever said, "what difference does it make if we train them one way as long as they come out correctly in the show ring?" That opens the doors for some really heinous training methods where the end justifies the means. Are we training to show or showing to train?

1) Right, so if you wouldn't mind, could you please point out EXACTLY what is wrong with PB and Lingh's trot??? I'd be keen to know, they are mighty fine in my book. And more importantly how are the classically trained horses like Brentina and Wansuela's trots BETTER???????????? Afterall you are arguing classical training is superior to rk in terms of training quality and correctness are you not. (even though ANKY IS classical and rk is simply ONE method amongst her arsenal, but you guys don't seem to get that)

2) One of the common criticisms of Salinero is that he has impure gaits, evident by the fact he doesn't track up, if you have not heard this before KJ maybe you need to go back and read posts from your anti RK mates, I read it ALL THE TIME. But if you would like to analyse other flaws of Salinero and explore my logic further, 'he doesn't halt because of rk"??? Well last couple of tests of Wansuela, SHE didn't halt either?????????????? 'Piaffe croup high', well sorry I could point to 101 horses that are not trained rk who are croup high. Walk? Well weltall's walk is shite, but he is not trained RK, I've not seen a great walk on a gp for a looong time on a plethora of horses (they all seem to get worse yet Sal's get beter!), but somehow its all rk's fault, how unfair!THAT'S MY POINT, every flaw of Sal's is replicated in NON RK horses, get it?

If there are pitfalls with all types of training, why is rk the BAD method and the other not??? So confused by this logic.

Thanks for responding to the question KJ, I don't believe it has been answered effectively though.

And for whoever said I don't see the question, go back and read post on page six, it obviously a question, others have seen it and responded.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:02 PM
Sabryant,


I think the thing is that Anky is slammed for RK for all the problems decided by the anti rk side and the classical people are held up to be saints. It seems human nature to demonize and deify. And it also seems to go both ways. The rk side holds the classicists up as "fanatics" and "PETA troublemakers" while deifying Anky. Painful and unrealistic, I agree.


I think it is a style of horse that is popular for dressage, at the moment, that no matter how you train it will have the same disfavor among the traditionalists.
This is interesting, and I have heard this argument before. It bears thinking about. I think it is hard for some of the traditionalists to see the ends of rollkur without seeing the means. For years, they were warned against poll too low, or BTV or pulling the head around by classical instructors and in text after text. To me, what is fascinating about rollkur is the rider's ability to get the horses poll back up and to show them as correctly as they do.


Having been traditionally trained, when I saw a horse extend the trot and the front/hind legs do no match in the stride, it was called impure by traditional standards. In the same way, when I don't see the haunches lower in the transitions from extended trot back to collected trot. Is that a transition at all in the purest sense of the traditions we learned?

Exactly.


The things that we were taught in traditional training are not "reality" for the horses that are being trained today. Not the classical trained horses or the RK trained horses.

That's the argument. The horses are being trained for competition rather than the ultimate aim of the airs. So the piaffe can be more horizontal, etc. To me, the issue is the hypocrisy, the difference between what the rules say and what the judges reward. The scores don't always reflect an adherence to the FEI rules.

But, do you think it is the fault of the type of horses, the fault of the judges, the fault of the rules or some combination? In other words, if the top riders were zinged in the scores everytime the horses went BTV or poll low the way I used to be zinged 20 years ago, do you think the scores would be so high? Do you think the same winners would be on top? Would the horses be moving better or worse? Why can't the classical principles be a reality?


Maybe 20 years from now, the horses will be bred for the ability to be trained more in the traditional codes.

They say this method is cyclic, comes and goes about every 20 years.


But for now, to blame a system of training on a horse's way of going holds vain endeavor to slander when the same style horse trained from the traditional codes goes much the same way.

I do believe there are intrinsic differences in some of the ways the horses go when trained traditionally and trained with rollkur. The pedestalling piaffe is one. The four beat canter pirouette is another. The four beat trot is another. I suspect the prevalance of hind leg/front legs not matching in trot extensions is another, although like you I see that one from just about everybody when they really go for it and their horse doesn't. On the plus side, I have a gut feeling that rollkur really improves the passage on some of these horses. I will investigate that more.

It's important for riders to know that when the neck is shortened, the balance of the horse changes and this impacts the purity of the gaits. By some trick of magic, Anky and other great rollkur riders are (usually) able to bring the poll back up and lengthen the neck to show. Amazing.

slc2
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:41 PM
none of these problems are particular to rollkur horses, especially the pedestal piaffe. nor have i found that these problems are even typical or general with rollkur horses.

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:46 PM
and i have some ocean front property in iowa to sell you.

the definition of 'pure gait' needs work, it does not include sitting or engaging in the transition.


Hey slc

I wouldn't give you but a couple dollars for that property!

I don't think I said gaits. Though this has been implied many times in the anti-rk posters post. I meant, in the pureness of traditional dressage/not gaits.

sabryant
Jun. 26, 2006, 10:21 PM
KJ

I, honestly, believe it is the new style horse. I remember seeing one of this type horse come into this country years ago. He was four years old and he had the walk of a giraffe. I followed this horse (as was around my area for shows) for awhile and he never did very well, because the gal riding him could never get the waaaay uphill balance corrected. Rembrandt and Gigolo didn't have those piaffe on the pedestal look but they were critisized for their lack of tradition. I loved to watch their p/p tours because there were no disturbances in the transitions into/out of. It was beautiful to me, tradition or no tradition. Anky's/Sal's is beautiful too because of the same reason. I love watching this style horse. It looks effortless and that is the part I like more than tradition. I can let go of being stuck in the traditions to watch these brilliant horses work. I still know what the traditions are...it isn't hurting anything except for the attitudes of some of the posters on this forum. I gave the reasons why I think the RK riders can put their horse's faces wherever they want them at any given time earlier in this thread. I think NERO still makes great points that have not been answered in her last post. I agree with her that Anky is classical in very many ways.

Velvet
Jun. 26, 2006, 10:36 PM
DIE! DIE! DIE!

I'm still trying, but this seems like some sort of zombie, or Frankenstein's monster. It just won't die.

No, this thread is not useful. Not anymore. It's been hijacked back into the rollkur slamming and bashing. As I said, it's now a cage match. It's not only oh so very boring, but it's pointless. No one will agree. Nor do they agree to disagree. :yawn:

Maybe a firehose would help. :lol:

I'll just keep screaming for a while. Die, thread, die! *pant*

Oy, this is a hard one to kill. It just doesn't know WHEN to give up the ghost, does it?

I honestly wouldn't mind the thread having a new life, but this one doesn't seem to be a life. It seems to be revisiting a subject that makes people chase their tails or bash their heads on the wall so they can say how much better they feel when they stop and just have a few brick marks on their forehead.

Seriously, I'm trying to do you all a favor.

Die! Die! Die! :lol: