Is a Bit required for lower levels?

[luvs2ride79]

Enough already. :no:

I like bits, I use bits, I just also enjoy going bitless and was confused about the USEF rules... I am not confused any longer and I could care less what any of you think about bitless bridles or their application in Dressage riding. I know what I like and what I can do with my horses and their various bitted and bitless brildes.

[LynxMynx]

I know that a rule change is proposed to allow bitless bridles up to third level (or is it second?). So I would guess that bits are currently required.

[Kementari]

Yes, if you are showing at recongized shows a bit is required.

Among other things:


DR 121
2. For Training, First and Second Level tests and FEI Pony tests, a plain snaffle bridle is
required...
6. ...A rein is a continuous, uninterrupted strap or line from the bridle bit to the hand. Rein additions or attachments are not permitted. Each bit must be attached to a separate rein and reins may only be attached to bits...
If you are showing unrecognized, it would be up to the management.

[Janet]

Yes, a bit IS required at all levels.


The phrase "a plain snaffle bridle is required" means a bridle with a snaffle bit. Not confusing at all.

Every year there is a rule change proposal to permit the "bitless bridle", and every year it is defeated.

[DressageGuy]

As well it should be. You can't have appropriate contact with the bit, without a bit.

[luvs2ride79]

You can't have appropriate contact with the bit, without a bit.

You need appropriate contact & communication with the horse. The bit is just a tool, one of many. Why would it be required? If I can get my horses to move appropriately without one, why should I be forced to use one? It's sad to see that horses cannot teach everyone to think outside the box ;).

The phrase "a plain snaffle bridle is required" means a bridle with a snaffle bit. Not confusing at all.


And no, snaffle bridle does not mean bit. You can attach a leather english hackmore to your snaffle bridle to turn it into a bitless alternative quite easily ;), thus retaining your "snaffle bridle" on your horse. That is why I asked.

It would be a great alternative for those of us with horses who don't have the talent to go past 2nd or 3rd level and enjoy riding without a bit. I can understand requiring a bit for championships and qualifying classes, but those of us that are amatures just showing for fun should have fewer restrictions (as we already do in certain areas in the rule book).

I will continue to use a bit for showing, but I will be sure to encourage the board to change the rules to allow a bittless bridle.

~Barbara

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

A horse is also judged on accceptance of the bit throughout the test, if there is no bit, how can that be judged?

[monstrpony]

Being "on the bit" is a state of the horse's mind and body, not it's mouth.

Waterskiing in a double is okay, but riding without a chunk of metal in the horse's mouth is not? That's why I've moved beyond dressage, as well.

[Janet]

And no, snaffle bridle does not mean bit. The USEF, USDF, and every judge and TD I have spoken to interprets it as "a bridle with a snaffle bit".

And the part Kementari quoted
6. ...A rein is a continuous, uninterrupted strap or line from the bridle bit to the hand. Rein additions or attachments are not permitted. Each bit must be attached to a separate rein and reins may only be attached to bits... reinforces that.

Go ahead and argue all you want about whether or not a bit SHOULD be required (I see some merit in both PoV). In fact, go and post comments supporting the proposed rule change on the USEF web site.

But please don't try to argue that the CURRENT rules permit you to show without a bit, becuase they do not.

[mrsbwayne]

I had a trainer who hated the bitless. Said he would do much better in a bit. Wanted to put a bit on Boomie, so I let her for one lesson. (Our last one!) He did exactly the same stuff with the bit as he does in his bitless, as in avoidance, rushing, etc. With the bit he was also drooling all over and holding his head sideways trying to spit it out, which trainer would correct him. He was more focused on what was in his mouth than what he was supposed to be doing. That's not right.

I pointed out to the trainer that he's doing the same thing with the bit that he does with the bitless. She said, that's right, so what does that tell you? You're supposed to ride with your seat! So I said, what's the difference what he has in his mouth? She said, the bit has a little more finesse. Which may be true, but I sure didn't see it that day.

You can have a connection and get round in the bitless. The horse is showing acceptance of the aids, whatever the aids are. The horse has to be trained to do it, that's all. I also think the bit rule is silly. As long as he's showing acceptance, that's what important, correct?

Sarina

[MyReality]

Sorry let me be very blunt. Thinking that bit is useless, unncessary or harmful or more impressive in any sense, that is plain ignorant... ignorant as a horseman, ignorant as a dressage rider. I do not think it is wise to allow for bitless bridle in shows because, use of a bit is something that once you learn, it is a gift and it is forever useful. This is not to argue, could we achieve the same effects without a bit, or could we ride a horse well without a bit.

However! Having said that, please I do understand if your horse has a medical reason to not wear a bit or have a serious bad history that makes him dangerous to ride with a bit. These riders/horses should not be deprived of opportunities to show and judged fairly. I know of serious natural mouth deformity that actually makes putting anything in the mouth painful, even eating is a problem. Also dental care, some people really don't have the resources for that, and using a bit on horses with dental problem only makes them hate any type of contact... so it would be wise to go bitless until dental care arrive.

Firstly, If you are not educated on how to use the bit, or how to train horses to use a bit... please go find yourself a teacher, a good one. A horse only enjoys the communication when it is meaningfu.

Secondly, my main point of riding with a bitless bridle. Why on earth you think bitless bridle works? It works on pressure points on the horses' head!! You think it's any kinder, more superior? It works on the same *principle*... applying some sort of pressure and often on delicate nerve points (and I'm not saying painful pressure necssarily, but same goes with the bit) to signal the horse (usually blocking aids).

Some bitless have multiple points of contact which makes it a crude aid. Some bitless applies direct pressure on the poll so the horse is not yielding at the poll voluntarily with muscluar control. You tell me which one is worse.

More, a snaffle bridle is a snaffle because your hand hold a pound of weight, you have a pound of weight on your horse's mouth. All fair game. There is no leverage... that's why it is tricky to learn in the beginning because you need to apply a consistent weight in a consistent position in order for your horse to accept it. Many bitless bridle has leverage, and worse sort of wishy-washy kind of leaverage because it acts on more than one contacts on the horse's head.

More, there is no such thing as a 'hold' position with many types of bitless... a passive resistence, neithing pulling or giving. Many bitless bridle it's 'on' or 'off'... again very crude communication tool. Now some bitless allows some hold I understand, but many don't.

More, bit allows for chewing motion... it allows the horse to communicate back to the rider his state of relaxation. There is a high degree of back and forth communication, give/hold... information and exchanges. How does the horse do it with a bitless? wiggle his nose, swing his head? Sure you'll say you could tell by the swing of the gait... well so do I, but I have more!

A well made smooth bit, fitted to the horse's mouth... is not any worse than a 150+ pound person sitting on his back. A good contact, is not any worse than the leg or seat aids you're going to apply.

Having said ALL that, there are many people (even fancy trainers) who use the bit incorrectly AND not aware of it. They deserve even more education than those who don't know how to use the bit and just stop using it... cuz they create horses that hates the bit and move incorrectly... that's way way worse... but bitless ain't going to solve their problems either, my friend.

[monstrpony]

But Janet is also right, the rules are the rules, and are unlikely to change on this point any time soon.

Once you decide to explore the relationship with your horse outside of the confines of a particular discipline, you might run into conflicts like this. But it's not realistic to expect the discipline, particularly one that's honorably older than any of us, like dressage, to change to accommodate the artifacts of the relationship you end up developing. In the end, none of it should matter, and if you aren't there yet, well ... you aren't there yet (which is okay--remember, it's the journey that counts).

Now, if Anky were knocking the top off of the GP in a bitless bridle, there might be a prayer of making change, but ... you can see where that train of thought goes ;) .

[Sandy M]

And no, snaffle bridle does not mean bit. You can attach a leather english hackmore to your snaffle bridle to turn it into a bitless alternative quite easily ;), thus retaining your "snaffle bridle" on your horse. That is why I asked.



Uh, NO. Without the bit it is no longer a snaffle bridle, it is a "headstall" to which you can attach, as you note, a hackamore noseband, a western bosal (if it's thin enough), etc. It is only a "snaffle" bridle when it has a snaffle attached.

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Do the rules require the bit to be in the mouth?
Just askin' ;)

[slc2]

we went bitless once when Bionic got bit on the face.

i was shocked and appalled. WAY too much pressure, and WAAAY HAY HAY too much leverage.

the 'better in the bitless' is because it has so much more pressure. absolutely effortless for the rider, tweak tweak and horses head stays dead still, right? the horse doesn't make a sound connection with that sort of pressure; it can't. all it can do is go behind that pressure.

[mickeydoodle]

Schumacher even uses a technique occasionally where he attaches and extra rein to the regular dressage noseband for horses that are pulling against the bit connection. As SLC said, it gives the rider much more leverage than a bit. That is why we put things over horses noses when we have trouble leading from the ground.

[luvs2ride79]

A horse is also judged on accceptance of the bit throughout the test, if there is no bit, how can that be judged?

There is still "contact" on the bridle, which the horse must accept. And acceptance of the position. The horse can still be "in frame" without a bit. Mine accomplish this quite nicely ;). If my mare is being a mare and doesn't want to work that day, she displays stiffness and unacceptance in the bitless bridle just like she would with a bit... Gotta love mares! lol

~Barbara

[luvs2ride79]

Do the rules require the bit to be in the mouth?
Just askin' ;)

HAHA! I can just see it... Have the bit hanging under the chin like a decoration, LOL. My girl wouldn't enjoy that one "bit," :winkgrin:.

-----------

Anyhow, I'm not saying bits are bad, and my horses and I are well trained to use a variety of them. But my horses go very well in a bitless and enjoy them, and I was just curious as to the interpretations of the current rule book. Unlike the breed specific handbooks, there is no clear and unquestionable statement that says, "a bit is required" (for the lower levels).

Thank you all for your clarifications. As I said in my second post, I will continue to use a bit for showing, but I will be sure to voice my opinion about bitless alternatives to the board members.

~Barbara

[luvs2ride79]

we went bitless once when Bionic got bit on the face.

i was shocked and appalled. WAY too much pressure, and WAAAY HAY HAY too much leverage.

the 'better in the bitless' is because it has so much more pressure. absolutely effortless for the rider, tweak tweak and horses head stays dead still, right? the horse doesn't make a sound connection with that sort of pressure; it can't. all it can do is go behind that pressure.

Perhaps you were using a mechanical hackmore (western style)? I use the same style as Dr Cook's bitless bridles, http://www.bitlessbridle.com This style has only slightly more control than using a leather halter and clip riens (which I enjoy using as well).

~Barbara

[luvs2ride79]

Schumacher even uses a technique occasionally where he attaches and extra rein to the regular dressage noseband for horses that are pulling against the bit connection. As SLC said, it gives the rider much more leverage than a bit. That is why we put things over horses noses when we have trouble leading from the ground.

A horse's nose is far less sensitive than a horse's mouth... Using an extra rein on the noseband adds "different" pressure. If connected to the girth, it adds downward pressure to force the head below a certain level. Using a truely bitless bridle (like Dr. Cooks posted above) has less refinement than a bit, and far less control of the head, so it requires the horse to be even more well trained and the rider to be more adept in order to achieve the same results as a bit. Trust me, I have ridden horses that do NOT respect the bitless! They will run away with you far easier than if you had a bit in their mouth, LOL. It takes a lot of muscle and a good one rein halt, lol.

~Barbara

[Ghazzu]

A horse's nose is far less sensitive than a horse's mouth...

~Barbara

I'm not so sure of that--both are areas of relatively little soft tissue covering bone.
I think the distribution of pressure is the operative factor here, and that has a lot of variables.

[luvs2ride79]

I'm not so sure of that--both are areas of relatively little soft tissue covering bone.
I think the distribution of pressure is the operative factor here, and that has a lot of variables.

Very true. Leather (especially padded leather) or biothane laying flat on the nose would provide less of a sensation to the horse than metal of any size in the mouth, one would think so anyway. I know my mare is much more responsive to her bit (a medium thickness french link-type SS loose ring) than the biothane bitless bridle we use. I have to use more leg and seat to reinforce the bridle cues than I do when using the bit. That's not to say that I hang on the bit... It's just a little harder to get a half-halt across and receive the desired effect on the horse without a bit than with one.

~Barbara

[Janet]

I'm not so sure of that--both are areas of relatively little soft tissue covering bone.
I think the distribution of pressure is the operative factor here, and that has a lot of variables. I think the point is that there are far more nerve endings per square inch IN the mouth than on the nose.

[Betcj]

Hi Simple,
:lol: (soapbox warning)
People thinking they can just slam a bit in a horses mouth and achieve 'stop' is a pet peeve of mine (and I bet yours too). The horse is taught a 'language' using the bit (or bitless as you point out). That language is used to communicate things like 'halt' or whatever. It would be like handing a 16 year old the car keys and expecting him to drive to the store. He's got no clue till he's taught how! Just giving him a spanking won't help his driving.

So to get back on topic: I find the French mouth snaffle is very comfortable for horses with lower roofed mouths (like some Arabs). My gelding loves his! I also have seen people use a Baucher (sp?) with Sealtex tape on it. This is the easiest on the roof of the mouth....like anything, it can be harsh if used roughly.

[merrygoround]

My Reality has many valid points.

[Kementari]

My TB has done WP, and done it pretty well. As he has aged, his back conformation has changed so that western saddles simply don't fit, which means that I can no longer show him western.

I would never OCCUR to me to try and get the rules changed so that I can show WP in an English saddle, even though the saddle has nothing to do with the training of the horse. (In fact, I used to school in the hotter parts of the year in his western bridle and English saddle, as it is lighter and cooler.) But, you know, the discipline has rules and traditions, and now that my horse and I no longer fit those rules and traditions, we don't show that discipline. I can still ride him that way at home, either in the English saddle or in my BM's Aussie, but no showing.

Use of a bit is one of the rules/traditions of dressage. If you or your horse doesn't like that, then that's not a problem - you don't have to show. I don't mean that in a nasty way; it's just that you shouldn't expect the discipline to adjust itself for YOU, any more than I should expect WP to allow me to use an English saddle. We can all have fun with our horses without expecting the world to conform to our wishes. :yes:

[Sandy M]

If I really needed the bit - any bit - to "STOP" my horse, I'd be in big trouble. Even the strongest, pulling X-C horse I had (he REALLY loved to run and jump!), would actually break gait and slow if I SLACKED the reins, sat and lightened my leg, OR if I simply said "whoa." (Another reason I used "easy" instead of "whoa" if using a verbal command to back him off a little.")

That being said, a horse canNOT be "on the bit" without a bit. You may have some sort of collection, and a nice "head position" with a flexed poll (won't say head set for fear of starting a flame war), but the relaxation of the jaw and connection through the back are, well, unlikely.

But basically, I agree with the last poster: The rules have been in place for many years, and no one has ever succeeded in a rule change allowing bitless bridles. Until that happens (dubious), just enjoyo the level of training you've accomplish with your bitless bridle if that so suits you, but don't imply that the rules for dressage are wrong for not allowing you to compete sans bit.

(and I hack my horse in what basically is a side pull, but it doesn't even have the kind of noseband that most sidepulls have. It's just a halter bridle I put a fleece on, and clipped reins to. If my horse isn't listening to my seat and legs, I have no stopping power -- but I've never had him run away or even get "too fast" while riding in this arrangement. But when he's doing dressage - he wears a bit, and is light and soft in the mouth and does not appear in the least distressed. On the other hand, I've seen some bitless bridle horses with noticeable grooves in their noses!

[Ghazzu]

I think the point is that there are far more nerve endings per square inch IN the mouth than on the nose.

Devil's advocate here--do we *know* that to be the case?
Is there histologic/anatomical evidence, or are we making that assumption?

[egontoast]

Oh lord.

[DressageGuy]

You still don't get it Too Simple, you can't have contact without a freaking bit. And you can't have them reaching into the contact when there's nothing to reach into. I'm sure the horse may have been moving well, but was it correct work? I seriously doubt it. It's not about "tastes", it's about being able to work correctly, and in dressage, you can't accomplish that without having a bit to communicate with the horse.

[Janet]

Devil's advocate here--do we *know* that to be the case?
Is there histologic/anatomical evidence, or are we making that assumption? I thought there was anatomical evidence. But I don't have an actual reference.

[Ghazzu]

I thought there was anatomical evidence. But I don't have an actual reference.

There may be, but if there is, it is obscure.
When I am next looking for a good excuse to avoid necessary work, I may try to track this down.
However, today I am having some database problems.

[Mariequi]

Have had mares as well and they are much lighter with a snaffle bit.

[Sandy M]

Yep, my mare has that same groove, and I suppose people could say "Well, look at that groove. And she rides in a bitless! I wonder how hard she had to pull?!?" But the truth is, the groove came from the previous owners who used a steel noseband (they sell them in western supply catalogs, but I can't remember the name of it right now) in conjunction with a bicycle chain bit. They tried to make her a barrel racer but they didn't want to die so they did whatever they could to keep her controlled and stoppable. The groove on her nose has nothing to do with me. The groove is actually so pronounced that my noseband just sits right down in it.
**That may be true in your case, but I've seen enough other cases where there had been no previous owner, or the horse had been bought young, or the horse had been ridden in a regular curb or snaffle prior to the present owner taking it over and putting it in a "bitless bridle," and all on their own they'd created a "groove" that never before existed. Now, I had a friend who showed her Arab in costume classes with a half-breed bit, but trail rode him in a jumping hackamore. No groove in his nose, nor gaping mouth for a high-ported western bit - he had an educated mouth and she had educated hands. Bad hands are bad hands, bit or bitless.****

As for dressage changing the rules for a few select people - I think the point is more that the USDF/FEI declares that a horse CANNOT move "properly" without a bit in its mouth, and that is simply not true.

****the USDF/FEI say nothing of the kind. They say the horse cannot be 'on the bit" and moving 'properly' according to the standards for THAT PARTICULAR TYPE OF COMPETITION/EQUESTRIAN DISCIPLINE without a bit.*****

If the issue was simply - I want to ride dressage in a western saddle and they should change the rules so I can, then I think that would be silly. But this is an issue of effective communication with the horse, and that's what dressage is all about - communication with the horse.

*****IMHO you're just creating an issue that doesn't truly exist except for some who owns a horse with a damaged mouth that simply CAN'T carry a bit. I communicate fine with my horse with or without a bit and I don't even need the pressure of Dr. Cook's bridle or of a hard jumping type hackamore. I hack in with basically a halter with fleece on the noseband. But I don't claim to be "doing dressage" when I ride with that halter.*****

[Jude]

You are talking about two different things.

"On the bit" can be more correctly phrased "on the aids." This means the horse is through and connected, stepping under, round, engaged, all that jazz. Nose dead-on vertical. You don't even need a *bridle* for that, much less a bit. In fact, you don't need a saddle, either. Or heck, if you've got some long-lines, you don't even need a rider! It just means the horse is moving correctly and responding to whatever aids the human is using.

"Accepting contact," however, is different. A horse must be trained to accept the contact of the legs, contact of the seat, and contact of the bit. If you want to go so far as to use an indirect reining style (which all bitless options are, as far as I know), you must teach them to accept the "contact" of pressure on various parts of their head. In lower level dressage, a horse is judged on how well he accepts contact.

In addition, lower level riders are expressly forbidden from using bits that engage curb/poll pressure. Thus, I would protest allowing bitless options because they all use curb/poll pressure. You don't get that until what, third level or something? So I could see arguing that Dr. Cook's or a hack or whatever could be used at third level and above, but not below. This is far beyond needing some hunk of steel to control your beastie - it is about not introducing a new training concept too early in the dressage strata.

Finally, I had a trainer who hated the bitless. Said he would do much better in a bit. Wanted to put a bit on Boomie, so I let her for one lesson. (Our last one!) He did exactly the same stuff with the bit as he does in his bitless, as in avoidance, rushing, etc. With the bit he was also drooling all over and holding his head sideways trying to spit it out, which trainer would correct him. He was more focused on what was in his mouth than what he was supposed to be doing. That's not right.

...The horse has to be trained to do it, that's all. I also think the bit rule is silly. As long as he's showing acceptance, that's what important, correct?

SarinaWhy did you think your horse did not have to be trained to accept the bit, but did have to be trained to accept the bitless? Horses are not born knowing what to do with a bit in their mouths, just as they are not born knowing what to do with a rider on their backs, a halter on their face, or even what we want when we simply push on their flanks. I refer you to my comment above about needing to show that your horse has learned acceptance of contact, including the bit.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Being in a frame is NOT what dressage is about though. I am not flaming you, but someone saying they are putting there horse in a dressage "frame" sends chills down my spine.

TS, if you do not ride dressage, why are you stating YOUR OPINION on this thread? FYI, my mare was also afraid of the bit for a while. I had a trainer who liked to use a more severe bit rather than training to get horses to "behave". Once I moved Bugs away from that trainer, I put a nice eggbutt snaffle in her mouth and LET GO OF HER MOUTH. I taught her voice commands and spent a summer riding on the buckle and teaching her how to go forward and trust the rider to NOT get into her mouth. Then, the following fall, I gradually picked up contact with her again. I do a lot of GIVING! ALWAYS! You do not have to have a choke hold on the reins to ride dressage. I encourage lightness and forward movement, I am not constantly nagging at the reins, seesawing and PULLING my horse into a "frame". Yes, there are riders out there of ALL disciplines who DO, but in dressage, that is NOT correct. Contact, YES, yanking your horse into a "frame", NO! Gosh, dressage is not torture, and because I use a bit does not mean I am into torturing my animals. I sometimes do not understand the rope halters either, but that is another thread entirely!

[luvs2ride79]

You still don't get it Too Simple, you can't have contact without a freaking bit. And you can't have them reaching into the contact when there's nothing to reach into. I'm sure the horse may have been moving well, but was it correct work? I seriously doubt it. It's not about "tastes", it's about being able to work correctly, and in dressage, you can't accomplish that without having a bit to communicate with the horse.

Those of us that ride in bitless bridles successfully know that what we say is correct; one can ride a horse and school dressage without a bit and with proper communication, connection, and impulsion. Those of you that do not enjoy riding with a bitless bridle cannot seem to understand this concept. And until you ride a horse properly in one, you likely never will. So, why keep arguing something you have not experienced?

I think we will all need to agree to disagree.

I'll restate, it's sad that horses do not teach everyone to think outside the box... Or perhaps it's just that some take longer to see the light (make that many lights) than others ;).

~Barbara

[luvs2ride79]

"Accepting contact," however, is different. A horse must be trained to accept the contact of the legs, contact of the seat, and contact of the bit. If you want to go so far as to use an indirect reining style (which all bitless options are, as far as I know), you must teach them to accept the "contact" of pressure on various parts of their head. In lower level dressage, a horse is judged on how well he accepts contact.

The Dr. Cook style bitless bridle (which I use) uses direct reining, the same cues as if your horse had a bit in his mouth. He has some great fact sheets with instructions on the mechanics on his web site, http://www.bitlessbridle.com

~Barbara

[mrsbwayne]

Finally, Why did you think your horse did not have to be trained to accept the bit, but did have to be trained to accept the bitless? Horses are not born knowing what to do with a bit in their mouths, just as they are not born knowing what to do with a rider on their backs, a halter on their face, or even what we want when we simply push on their flanks. I refer you to my comment above about needing to show that your horse has learned acceptance of contact, including the bit.

I didn't have to train him to accept the bitless. Put it on him and away he goes. I do have to teach him to accept contact of it and go round, which he would also have to do in a bit. But put a bit on him and he spends his time twisting his head trying to spit it out and drooling all over the place, which was pretty disgusting. Not saying bits are bad as a training tool, and I'm sure they have their place. But we're not doing anything that requires him to wear a bit. BTW, we do pretty well at the shows in bitless bridles.

Just curious, which would you rather wear? A piece of steel across the gums just doesn't sound pleasant to me. Having to wear flashbands to keep the mouth closed so they can't escape it? That doesn't sound accepting to me. As far as all this 'pressure' everybody keeps talking about, the bitless is no worse than putting your hand on the side of his head and pushing his head over, or a gentle squeeze to the head to signal him to stop. If you need to do more than that, your horse needs some training.
SW

[Jude]

luvs2ride, I knew I was going to get in trouble for that comment, and should have restated it in the first place. A snaffle bit works by putting pressure on the inside, essentially pulling the horse's head. Dr. Cook's works by putting pressure on the outside, pushing the head. When you pull the inside rein, it pushes on the outside of his face. That is, in my understanding of the terms (which could certainly be incorrect), indirect reining.

mrsbwayne, this discussion has nothing whasoever with what I would like to wear. However, I know for a fact that my horse prefers a snaffle bit over any sort of rig with curb and/or poll pressure. This is why our gaming bridle is a mechanical hackamore - when you have a fit event horse screaming home heck-bent-for-leather straight at the arena rail that he is perfectly capable of jumping, having whoa-dammit brakes is necessary. Thus, we use a setup that uses poll pressure in order to have those brakes. We use a much softer setup with a kimberwick on cross country - again, not for steering because he has plenty of that, but for brakes. He loves his job too much, and doesn't love stopping quite the same. This is one of the reasons we chose English over western (that and he likes jumping more than loping) when we had to make a choice, so that he would be in a snaffle bit instead of a curb.

And Dr. Cook and pretty much every one of his adherents that I have read/heard from say that you do indeed need to train them to it. Perhaps your horse was already trained to understand curb pressure?

And this still doesn't address the fundamental concern in the dressage levels that curb pressure is simply higher up on their training scale than using a snaffle bit. So they don't allow it at the lower levels.

Edited to add: I should say that we generally don't use the brakes on the hack in gaming except at the start to keep him from running off. We stay well off his face, and rate with our bodies. He knows his job, but the hack is the just-in-case.

[mrsbwayne]

I've never had to train any of my horses to use it, including Brandine who has never been in a bit, period.

They go in it, they get it. Just like that. Hershey, Boomer, Brandine. Hershey requires very little aids, he responds to the slightest movement. Boomie wants to plow through everything and keep plowing. Brandine just goes along with whatever. I imagine they might be the same way in a bit. Except Hershey prefers the bitless, Boomer drools all over when he wears one, Brandine's never had one, I don't know what she would do. I do know the ones that have had bits, when they see a bit coming the head goes in the air and the teeth clamp. So why do it? They drop right in the bitless and are happy with it.

I have no problems with it, it works fine for me. We show (schooling shows), we train, we trail ride. Everyone's happy.
SW

[Kementari]

Yeah, right.

I'm sorry, but you have to train a horse to respond to ANY aids. They do not just spring to the Earth KNOWING how to steer, stop, go forward, etc. Some horses may pick it up more quickly than others, but if you think there isn't training involved then you just aren't actually engaging the little grey cells.

You may have found for your horses that there was LESS training involved to respond to a Bitless (tm) than to a bit, but that does not mean there was NO training. Unless, of course, they came to you already having some idea of how to respond to pressure on their face, and so YOU didn't have to do any training.

Actually, if I were you, I wouldn't go around saying you didn't have to train your horses to the Bitless (tm), because that just makes it sound like a shortcut you can take to avoid the time and effort involved in teaching a horse acceptance of the bit.

And you STILL have not addressed Jude's comment about poll and curb pressure being inappropriate at the beginning levels of dressage.

[luvs2ride79]

Indirect reining is neck reining, or using the reins to effect the neck. Direct reining refers to pulling the head where you want it to go, with or without a bit. That has always been my understanding and the way I have read things in books/articles.

And Dr. Cook and pretty much every one of his adherents that I have read/heard from say that you do indeed need to train them to it. Perhaps your horse was already trained to understand curb pressure?

Dr Cook's bridles do not use curb pressure. It uses very basic pressure principles. If your horse understands pressure on the halter, then he/she will very quickly understand the bitless bridle. Yes, you will need to teach the horse about half halts and you will need to alter some of your cuing methods, but the basic go, stop, and turn should not be a big deal... If it is, then perhaps more halter and in-hand work is in order.

Curb pressure is pressure on the poll and chin caused by leverage. There is NO leverage in a Cook bitless bridle. There is no curb strap or chain. What little poll pressure is there for a well trained horse going nicely, is about the same as what your horse would feel in a regular bridle if you ride with your hands too low.

If you (and general "you" to anyone) have not ridden with or successfully used a Dr Cook style bitless bridle, then you will not understand its principles and dynamics fully. And that's fine. But don't try and argue when you don't even fully get what it is you're arguing against...

ETA: I have no problems with bits and use a variety of them for different reasons on my horses. I just enjoy going bitless as well and wanted clarification on the USEF rules on bit requirements.

[Mariequi]

Yes, I agree to disagree. I don't find lightness, finesse, seeking from bitless.

[AllWeatherGal]

My TB has done WP, and done it pretty well. As he has aged, his back conformation has changed so that western saddles simply don't fit, which means that I can no longer show him western.

Not at all bit related because I think it's silly to talk about a horse into the bit without one (but yes, the horse can be into the bridle, which is to say into his/her NOSE) ... but anywhoo ...

Dave Genadek of Black Rhino makes custom saddles and told me that his A size is "for Thoroughbreds". The saddles are lovely tho his wait time is annoying ... having said that, the TB saddle I got for my TB never quite fit her right, either. But if you still want to, you might give it a try.

Sharon Saare's custom saddles fit the horse they were made for. She's amazing and the saddles are gorgeous.

[ESG]

As well it should be. You can't have appropriate contact with the bit, without a bit.

Yep. Pretty self-explanatory, that. :winkgrin:

[Jude]

...the Bitless Bridle™ distributes its gentle pressure ... through two loops, one over the poll and one over the nose.

getting enough characters

[Kementari]

The Bitless Bridle (tm) exerts pressure on the poll and the under the chin (as well as on the cheeks) simultaneously, which is essentially the same effect as a curb. No, it is not *technically* a curb, but as far as the action is concerned, it's a distinction without a difference. Actually, I like curbs better, because they release much more quickly than the Bitless (tm) does. :yes:

Regardless, though, this doesn't have anything to do with what bit/bridle arrangement I want on MY horse; it has to do with what bit/bridle arrangement is conducive to learning dressage - and the Bitless (tm) ain't it.

AWG, I'll have to keep those names in mind for when we win the lottery. :winkgrin: It is good to know, though, that there are makers out there who care about us wierdos who want to ride our TBs western! :lol:

[Ghazzu]

It may not have a curb effect, but just from looking at the diagram on the website, it is obvious that the bb utilizes leverage.

[Chipngrace]

Yeah, my story is on there, and I wish he'd take it off.

[monstrpony]

It may not have a curb effect, but just from looking at the diagram on the website, it is obvious that the bb utilizes leverage.

I'm not sure leverage is the correct word, I think it's more of a pulley effect, which, according to physics, is another way changing the application of a force. Though if memory serves (which IS questionable, at my age), a single pulley only changes the direction of the applied force, not the magnitude; a lever generally does magnify the force, as well (unless the lever arms are of equal length, which is not the case with most curb devices).

In any event, the Bitless bridle does (or can) confine the horse's mouth, and I have issues with that (because I have a horse who has issues with it). I know of horses who are very happy in a Bitless (including one impecably trained dressage horse who is retired to being a schoolie for carefully chosen riders; she never did find a snaffle bit she was really comfortable with, but has taken to the bitless like a duck to water. Go figure), and I know others who really object to it.

Personally, I think the vaqueros were on to something with the old-fashioned rawhide bosal, but success with that depends on the work done beforehand. I think that's the bottom line; if you go far enough back and make the work with the horse correct, it really doesn't matter what you put on their head or in their mouth. Getting the work correct is a so much bigger issue.

On the other hand, there are so many horses out there who have had bad experiences and so few of us who are truely gifted in getting all the way back to the basics and rebuilding correctly. There's something to be said for just using what works well for you and your horse. It's a shame that this can shut you out of some disciplines, this need for a sometimes contorted path to correctness--but who ever said life was fair?

[egontoast]

Shhhhh. You might wake up spiritguy!

[PiedPiper]

If you (and general "you" to anyone) have not ridden with or successfully used a Dr Cook style bitless bridle, then you will not understand its principles and dynamics fully. And that's fine. But don't try and argue when you don't even fully get what it is you're arguing against..

One could this about bits. :winkgrin:

[nhwr]

Since one of the directives of training level (and any level after that) is acceptance of the bit, you must have a bit to demonstrate that. No bit, no acceptance of the bit. Pretty simple.

PS I have to laugh that a few of the people who encourage "out of the box thinking" here have big problems in other threads with what they think are "non classica"l methods ;)

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Since one of the directives of training level (and any level after that) is acceptance of the bit, you must have a bit to demonstrate that. No bit, no acceptance of the bit. Pretty simple.


I tried to explain that very point a couple of pages back and it got ignored. I guess there is no come back for that.

Ok, if you do not want to use a bit on your horse, FINE, do what makes you and your horse happy. However, do not expect the rest of the world to bend the rules for your convenience. It, LIFE, does not work that way.

[Ghazzu]

I'm not sure leverage is the correct word, I think it's more of a pulley effect, which, according to physics, is another way changing the application of a force. Though if memory serves (which IS questionable, at my age), a single pulley only changes the direction of the applied force, not the magnitude; a lever generally does magnify the force, as well (unless the lever arms are of equal length, which is not the case with most curb devices).



Using the basic classification of simple machines, the pulley can be viewed as a form of the lever.

The amount of force magnified by a lever is dependent upon the placement of the fulcrum.

[monstrpony]

But don't you have to have multiple pulleys before the force is magnified in a pulley system? I think to the average person "leverage" implies magnification of force, and I don't think the single pulley of the bitless bridle has the aspect of magnification, only change in direction. And hence there is a difference between it and a "typical" leverage bit.

But, as I said, it's been a long time since I studied this stuff and I don't have a physics text handy. If I've mis-remembered it, I have no problem owning that. I did struggle a bit with that particular lab, as I recall.

[ESG]

It's very simple. The rules of competitive dressage dictate that one use a bit - period. No negotiation, no exception, no rule change as of yet.

How much clearer can it be? Why is this still being debated? Talk about beating a dead horse! :dead:

[Ghazzu]

But don't you have to have multiple pulleys before the force is magnified in a pulley system?
Do you not think that force is magnified when employing draw reins?
Sometimes, simply altering the direction of the application of the force is enough to effective "multiply" it.

[egontoast]

Throw away the saddles too, and the bra! Go FREEEE!

[DressageGuy]

Dressage is steeped in tradition, hence the requirements for things like spurs and a double. You're not required to use them, simply to have them on you. And by that point, if you can't wear them, and not use them, you shouldn't be riding at that level. The BO where I keep Chase has a schoolmaster mare, and the guy INSISTS on wearing spurs for every ride. Now, this guy doesn't even have the most basic control of his body or his aids, and his horse has spur marks on her sides all the time, it's quite horrible to see. He showed at our schooling show, and had it been a recognized show, he would have been immediately disqualified by the TD.

[AllWeatherGal]

levels progress, less and less "stuff" should be used to show the REAL training of the horse. But instead, as the levels get harder and harder, more and more hardware and "stuff" is used on the horse. Whip, spurs, double bridle. It's ridiuclous and completely bassackards.

Actually whips are replaced by spurs as you go higher in the levels. I believe that the progression is meant to demonstrate increasing refinement of training, just like the old vaqueros' spade bits ...

I've been around and around on this with my instructor ... let's see a horse doing 3rd level dressage in non-bitted headgear and evaluate it. If people can train their horses to be through, with impulsion and on all the aids and seeking a contact without a bit, then we have something to talk about.

Otherwise, it's all kinda theory, eh?

[monstrpony]

I stand corrected. I finally remembered how it works--the two ends of the rope that go around the pully each have some force, f, on them (if the pulley is not moving; so, the total force in that direction is 2 times f; one of these ends would be the rider's hand, the other (in the case of a bitless) would be the horse's poll, or in the case of draw reins, the girth. But the thing that holds the pulley from moving (the horse's mouth in the case of draw reins; it's nose in the case of a bitless) has to maintain the same force in the opposite direction, 2 x f, in order to keep the whole mess stationary, so it does amplify, by a factor of two, the force that the rider applies with the hand. During the phase where the rider is taking up the slack on the rein, the force is merely re-directed (pulley in motion) but once the rider takes "contact", the force is multiplied.

Thanks, that draw rein comment helped dredge this up from the sub-basement of my brain where college physics currently resides.

[ESG]

Throw away the saddles too, and the bra! Go FREEEE!

Yay, eggie! If I didn't think I'd give myself two black eyes, along with the Inverness problem, I'd join you! :D

[Beasmom]

This thread has outlived whatever usefulness it might have had. In fact, it lost its usefulness after the first couple of replies. OP and pals just didn't like the answers they got.

I'm with Egontoast -- toss out all your tack. It's all a gimmick, and everything's a gadget designed to torture our poor horses. Best yet, we all ought to give up riding horses -- it's slavery, I tell you! We should put flowers in our hair and turn our horses loose by the Interstate to run FREEEEE!
Braless, of course.

Sheesh. Are you done now? Can we euthanize this poor thread? Go start your own Bitless(tm) Dressage Society.

[Kementari]

You are right that the rules dictate use of a bit. Period. However, the very object of dressage is to fine tune and show off the horse's willingness, responsiveness, engagement, suppleness, impulsion, etc. And a bit is NOT needed for those things. So then why require the bit?? What purpose does the bit serve? If some people want to use a bit, then fine, they should be able to. But if others don't want to, then they shouldn't have to. To me it's the same thing as requiring spurs, or a whip, or a double past a certain level. If the horse can perform without all the garb, then why not? Why not allow the horse to show in the least amount of hardware possible if the owner so desires?

The rules of Western Pleasure dictate use of a western saddle. Period. However, the very object of WP is to have an easy-moving, relaxed horse with free, comfortable gaits that would be appropriate to riding for days on the range. And a western saddle is NOT needed for those things. So then why require the saddle?? What purpose does the saddle serve? If some people want to use a western saddle, then fine, they should be able to. But if others don't want to, then they shouldn't have to. To me it's the same thing as requiring a western headstall, or chaps. If the horse can perform without all the garb, then why not? Why not allow the horse to show in the least amount of saddle possible if the owner so desires?

[ideayoda]

The use of the two bits is to be able to have very refined technique. Same this with spurs, finesse. The fact that neither is often developed to those ends is not the fault of the equipment, but the user of them.

[luvs2ride79]

The bitless is just a gimmick.

Everything is a gimmick: bridle, saddle, shoes, grain, supplements, etc.. When it comes right down to it, everything man makes for use with horses is a "gimmick." It's all unatural for the horse.

The key is to find what works for you and your horse; the most resistance-free way to health and harmony. Often times that means more training, not a different bit/bridle/saddle or other equipment. Sometimes a new "thing" is just what the horse and/or rider needs. It's up to us as responsible horse owners to do what's best for the horse, not just our own egos or insecurities.

[luvs2ride79]

Enough already. :no:

I like bits, I use bits, I just also enjoy going bitless and was confused about the USEF rules... I am not confused any longer and I could care less what any of you think about bitless bridles or their application in Dressage riding. I know what I like and what I can do with my horses and their various bitted and bitless brildes.

[Kyzteke]

Enough already. :no:

was confused about the USEF rules... I am not confused any longer

Well, glad we cleared that up -- too bad it took four pages to do it...

BTW, I am always puzzled WHY someone insists they are such fine horseman that they are sure they can accomplish some form of advanced riding (like dressage) without a bit. I mean, why? If that person is just a great horseman, they should have the finesse and expertise to get the horse to accept the bit happily?

[mrsbwayne]

To me, the bit transcends the line into being invasive. It is used INSIDE the horse's body.

I agree with that. I remember riding Hershey with a bit feeling the tongue on the end of the reins! That is just so GROSS to me!! My trainer laughs at me, but BLECH!!! :lol: Boomie too, that time we did it with him. Gives me the creeps just thinking about it! ( I know, I"m weird! But ... BLECH!)

That and the drool... I'll keep the bitless, thanks! We just do schooling shows and ride for fun anyway, so it's not a huge deal.
Sarina

[AllWeatherGal]

If that person is just a great horseman, they should have the finesse and expertise to get the horse to accept the bit happily.

You're destined to be an ODG with that attitude :)

[nhwr]

What you are doing when you ride without a bit is just that, riding without a bit. It isn't dressage. One of the earliest directives in dressage training is acceptance of the bit. Rejection of the bit will never be acceptable in dressage. And that is what you are doing with a bitless bridle. It is fine if you choose not to use a bit for whatever reason. But it is ridiculous to say that a discipline should change a fundamental principle to encompass those who reject that principle. Not going to happen :no:

[MyReality]

I've used Dr. Cook's bitless bridle because I was riding a friend's horse. It works in stopping and steering. It is clever in that it applies pressure on opposite side of the horse's head/face as the rein... so it does the outside blocking for you and you just need to do inside aids like a beginer rider. Also it applies direct pressure on the poll... so imagine something pushing the horse's head down when applying the reins, it is highly effective.

I think Dr. Cook should be ashamed of bashing the use of bit... and making ignorant people more ignorant. It's just marketing gimick and unfortunately some people buy into presentations that criticise others...the more ciritical, the more believable... how self righteous goodness then he must be right! Most of what he cited as the reason to buy his product, is far from true, I would call that bullsh!t... except the part about horse's mouth problems which is a very good reason for going bitless.

I cited many good reasons for using a bit, all tried and tested for centuries, for some reason because I don't touch a nerve and I'm not trying to sell them anything, people CHOOSE not to listen and believe.

I am pretty sure those who use Dr. Cook is practicing their own version of dressage because 1. again, like I said before, because of it's tightening effect on a horse's head, there is no 'hold' position... there is off, there is on and there is on even more, and even more. Very few bitless bridle has hold... the only thing that has is a well fitted leather halter, in my opinion. 2. Dr. Cook's bridle work on opposite sides of the head... so you apply inside rein, the outside block aids (+ poll pressure) comes on. To ride dressage in it, you need to think the opposite of dressage: outside rein for balance, you do inside rein instead according to Dr. Cook... which probably seems like a miracle if you ride with inside reins all the time.... finally something that 'translates' inside to outside for you, what no brainer! Honestly I haven't even try... I wouldn't even know where to begin.

Like one time I ride in that God forbid Paralli halter... I am supposed to stick my arm right out and hit the buckle on the horse's chin?

As for the issue of 'intrusiveness'... have you ever put a bit on a horse that never has a bit on? (You put some molasses on it of course) He would sort of mouth it, trying to figure out what it is... but usually they accepts it pretty quickly with much curiosity. In their minds a bit doesn't equate to anything as long as it doesn't hurt (not to say, they don't get ruined quickly if the bit is deemed unfair and painful). Now the same thing could not be said for saddle... something on his back often trigger a flight instinct, for an unbroke horse. Most horses get used to a saddle standing... but the minute you lunge them usually they run or quite a few of them would buck. That's my experience so far. So intrusiveness? accroding to whom?

People have made up their mind and I guess this argument is never going to settle. For those who are new to dressage, and having problems with contact, following this thread... I just wish you get a great coach, and see for yourself how a bit is supposed to work.

[ESG]

What you are doing when you ride without a bit is just that, riding without a bit. It isn't dressage. One of the earliest directives in dressage training is acceptance of the bit. Rejection of the bit will never be acceptable in dressage. And that is what you are doing with a bitless bridle. It is fine if you choose not to use a bit for whatever reason. But it is ridiculous to say that a discipline should change a fundamental principle to encompass those who reject that principle. Not going to happen :no:

How nicely put. But then, I expect nothing less of you. :D

AWG, you're too right - Kyzteke is definitely FODGM - Future Old Dead Guy Material. Welcome to the club! :cool:

[Dirigo]

Dressage without a bit.. RIDICULOUS!!

If your horse is unhappy about a bit, work on your hands.
Dressage is team work, and acceptance of the bit is a good thing.
If it's not there, something in your basics is amiss.

Training level... PURPOSE: (you can read it on every dressage test)
To confirm that the horse's muscles are supple and loose and that it moves freely and in a clear and steady rhythm, accepting contact with the bit!

very simple.
If you want to ride bitless, do it at home.

The day bitless dressage moves to the US showring, I'll consider moving back to Germany.
Dirigo

[Beasmom]

Well, I'd hate to be one of your horses! :no:

What exactly did dirigo state that would make you say such a thing? Oh, never mind, the evil bit and acceptance of same. We are ALL evil here in Dressageland. We pester horses for fun. Join us on the Dark Side, where all the tack is black...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Dirigo]

We pester horses for fun. Join us on the Dark Side, where all the tack is black...



LOL!!!!

[ESG]

Join Darth Dirigo (Designated Chief Horse Pesterer) and the rest of us in the EDRF (Evil Dressage Riders Federation) on the Dark Side! You might just learn something! :D

[Beasmom]

Join Darth Dirigo (Designated Chief Horse Pesterer) and the rest of us in the EDRF (Evil Dressage Riders Federation) on the Dark Side! You might just learn something! :D

Hey! I think the EDRF needs its own clique! What say you?

[egontoast]

Well, I'd hate to be one of your horses! :no:



Yes, much better to belong to someone who thinks it's OK to have broken beer bottles and barbwire in her pastures. I'm not making it up either. Posted it herself! Can't be bothered to move beer bottles thrown in the pasture and used barbwire for many years and sees nothing wrong with it. duckingandrunning:lol:

[AllWeatherGal]

We pester horses for fun. Join us on the Dark Side, where all the tack is black...



LOL!!!!

That's BRILLIANT!

[Beasmom]

Yes, much better to belong to someone who thinks it's OK to have broken beer bottles and barbwire in her pastures. I'm not making it up either. Posted it herself! Can't be bothered to move beer bottles thrown in the pasture and used barbwire for many years and sees nothing wrong with it. duckingandrunning:lol:

OH, NO, really? The EDRF would banish anyone to a far away, cold planet for doing that. There is a limit to horse pestering, after all.

I'd love to see that picture!

[Auventera Two]

Yes, much better to belong to someone who thinks it's OK to have broken beer bottles and barbwire in her pastures. I'm not making it up either. Posted it herself! Can't be bothered to move beer bottles thrown in the pasture and used barbwire for many years and sees nothing wrong with it. duckingandrunning

I will help you out with my exact quote:

My field also abutts a busy road in which young punks throw out whole cases of beer bottles into my field. Sometimes its a day or two before I can pick it up.

No use making up lies egg. Contrary to your quote, you "did" make this up. Never did I say it was okay. Never did I say I can't be bothered to pick them up. I did say it is sometimes a day or two before I can pick them up because I work full time. I also said I am thankful that a horse hasn't been hurt by this trash that the neighborhood heathans love to throw out, but unfortunately there isn't anything I can do to stop them. All I can do is clean up the mess every opportunity I get. ;) Barbed wire? There's a whole discussion on Horse Care. You could join in if you like. There are opinions both pro and con. My opinion is stated there. Please do visit the link and give your own opinion!

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=49909&highlight=barbed+wire

[ESG]

Hey! I think the EDRF needs its own clique! What say you?

I say, "BRILLIANT!". But only if I can be the founder. You can be co-founder and Darth Dirigo can be Supreme Dictator of Horse Pestering Techniques. :D

[Sandy M]

My tack is brown. Can I still stay on the Dark Side? Besides riding with a bit, I shoe my horse (the only Appy in the world with soft TB feet), give him supplements, etc. - all VERY unnatural. However, I do hack in a halter.

[mrsbwayne]

Hey, wait a minute! My tack is black, but it's bitless! Where does that put me! hahaha!!

BTW, I don't think bits are evil. In the right hands... get it? :lol: Just not mine! hahaha!
Sarina

[egontoast]

I didn't 'quote' you. I paraphrased from memory and I did not lie. . So you made me go look and it's even more bizarre than I remembered. I guess it's possible for someone to throw a case of beer bottles from a busy highway into a field without breaking any but you wouldn't know until you went and looked, would you? Just think it's interesting that someone who brags about these things suggests someone else is a bad horse owner because they use a BIT!!!:winkgrin:

I just read a post in which someone said that a horse could get seriously injured when beer bottles, string, etc. blows into a horse's pasture. Hmmmm. I have sloppy neighbors and their crap ends up in my field all the time. Never had an injury. My field also abutts a busy road in which young punks throw out whole cases of beer bottles into my field. Sometimes its a day or two before I can pick it up. Never had a single cut yet.

I managed to survive 25 years of barbed wire fencing and 10 horses and NEVER had an injury related to barbed wire. (Don't have barbed any more, as of the last few years.) Raised babies in barbed wire - they never went near it. The closest near accident was when a yearling jumped it. But she cleared it by a foot and didn't suffer a scratch.

I used to leave halters on horses 24/7 and for 25 years never had a single accident. Note that I don't do it anymore just because I see no need to tempt fate. I now realize it was pretty dumb to leave halters on.

Big rocks and gopher holes in the pastures? I never fixed them. The horses were smart enough to go around. Have never had an injury.

[Kementari]

I'm an eventer...but my tack is black. Can I still join?

(I use bits AND shoes and - get this - my horse has BAR SHOES. :eek: If that doesn't make me the Devil, I don't know what does! :lol:)

[Auventera Two]

I didn't 'quote' you. I paraphrased from memory and I did not lie. . So you made me go look and it's even more bizarre than I remembered. I guess it's possible for someone to throw a case of beer bottles from a busy highway into a field without breaking any but you wouldn't know until you went and looked, would you? Just think it's interesting that someone who brags about these things suggests someone else is a bad horse owner because they use a BIT!!!:winkgrin:

Past tense dear. The post was written while reflecting on the "things we used to do in the good ole days before we knew better." ;) Please do read for comprehension. Notice all the references to the way we "used" to do things when we didn't know any better, and thank goodness for pure dumb luck. When you look back at your younger years its often amazing what we as riders survived (no helmets, jumping logs, riding backwards bareback, etc.) and what our horses survived before we knew better. I also stated that I was very happy that none of my horses were ever accident prone or apt to get into things because we often didn't have the optimal setup for them. All that is changed now but wow, when you look back, sometimes you're just happy that your horses have been calm and easy going!

I never used the word "highway" either. ;) Road and highway are not the same thing. The road actually happens to be a little country road, that while busy with traffic, you couldn't possibly go very fast or you'd crash on one of the curves. Not a highway in the least. Please stop ad libbing for the sake of tearing down another person and making yourself appear mighty.

You seem to have a love of dragging up old posts and twisting them from the TRUTH to meet your own purpose. I am sorry that you feel a need to do this, and perhaps one day you will outgrow it. Until then - on well. *shrug* I think this has gone off track enough. If you have anything else you'd like to discuss, please feel free to send me a private message!

[egontoast]

I'll try to find time later to read that lengthy scolding.

It's one thing to say that bits should not be required ( an arguable point for discussion) and it's quite another to suggest that bits are cruel or that people who use them are bad horse owners. I'm taking issue with the latter.

Highway \High"way`\, n. A road or way open to the use of the public.
Syn: Way; road; path; course.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

[Sandy M]

I'm an eventer...but my tack is black. Can I still join?

(I use bits AND shoes and - get this - my horse has BAR SHOES. :eek: If that doesn't make me the Devil, I don't know what does! :lol:)


Ah, Kementari, I use PADS - plastic ones with frog support!!!! (Of course, perhaps the shoeless/bitless gods will forgive me since my horse once suffered a fractured coffin bone, and is now wearing the pads, having worn BAR SHOES (oh horror!!!) for the injury.)

[Janet]

I managed to survive 25 years of barbed wire fencing and 10 horses and NEVER had an injury related to barbed wire. (Don't have barbed any more, as of the last few years.) Raised babies in barbed wire - they never went near it. The closest near accident was when a yearling jumped it. But she cleared it by a foot and didn't suffer a scratch. I lost a horse to barbed wire (in a field that was supposedly free of barbed wire). She found the remnants of barbed wire, got a cut which penetrated the joint sac in her hock, which turned into septic arthritis. We did get rid of the infection in the hock, but it spread to the liver, and we had to put her down.

You are very lucky to have 25 years without incident, but my mileage is very different.

[ESG]

SandyM and Kementari, I officially welcome you to the EDRF in my capacity as founding member. Black tack, while preferred, is not required. One must, however, as a bona fide member of the EDRF, ride (pester?) one's horse with a bit at least 75% of the time to be a TRUE member. :cool: For other requirements into advanced horse pestering, please consult Darth Dirigo, our resident expert on the subject. :D

[Ghazzu]

SandyM and Kementari, I officially welcome you to the EDRF in my capacity as founding member. Black tack, while preferred, is not required. One must, however, as a bona fide member of the EDRF, ride (pester?) one's horse with a bit at least 75% of the time to be a TRUE member. What if one is in the awkward situation of having a horse which is not pestered by the bit--Splash will dive and grab it when I attempt to bridle him. Does it count if I annoy him with my leg occasionally?

[Sandy M]

I believe I am safely in conformance with EDRF guidelines with very little effort on my part, if only because EVERYTHING pesters an Appaloosa, even when it submits with (somewhat) good grace to such indignities as bridling, saddling, its passenger wearing spurs, and, heaven forbid, being lightly tapped with dressage whip (in reaction to which he grunts like a hog - how DARE I tap him!). Only producing treats and regular feed is regarded as NOT being pestered.

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Ummm, may I be a member? I have a BRAND NEW BLACK dressage saddle (that is loverly, I must say, and I love it) and ummm, I use a bit and... a dressage whip. No spurs yet, my boy is 3 and just starting his career, and, he is shoeless for as long as possible, but not because I think shoes are cruel, he just does not need them yet, or maybe he never will... my checkbook hopes that will be true. :lol: Will run-on sentences help my cause? I am full of those as well. :lol:

[ESG]

What if one is in the awkward situation of having a horse which is not pestered by the bit--Splash will dive and grab it when I attempt to bridle him. Does it count if I annoy him with my leg occasionally?

Absolutely. Consider yourself inducted (with honors - not many horses dive for the bit! :D ) into the EDRF. :D

Amy, welcome to both you and Frodo. Bugs is an honorary member, since she's not much on the riding end of things any more, IIRC. :D

[Bugs-n-Frodo]

Oh thank you! I can't wait to tell Miss Bugs she is an Honorary member as well!

[Dirigo]

my I suggest as chief resident expert pesterer of the EDRF, that annuals, like E/W, Flu, Rhino, encyphilitis, Rabies and coggins can be very VERY pestering :o)
If that's not enough needling, perhaps some accupunccture might be in place?
we need to get invasive!!
The Deep Dark Darth Dirigo (DDDD)

[Kementari]

My horse has WEDGE pads. :eek: Sometimes they are full pads and sometimes just rims, but nobody's perfect. :lol: I also, in addition to Dirigo's list, vaccinate for WNV and PHF, just for a little extra pestering. A few of my other pestering efforts include: using a LONGE LINE to lunge my horses; keeping them in STALLS at night; clipping muzzles and, sometimes, ears - which leads to putting those evil flymasks w/ ears on (which my Arab thinks is the most pester-ifying thing EVER); and putting Foreign Substances (AKA supplements and medications) in their food (which my TB thinks is the most pester-ifying thing ever). :no:

On a more serious note (is that allowed? ;)), there are all manner of things I have not tried on my horse, including the Bitless Bridle (tm). (I have ridden/do occasionally ride in just a halter (for low key rides) or in a mechanical hack (for gaming), but, although my horse is happy enough in both, I do not do serious dressage in them.) I also have not tried a twisted wire or bicycle chain bit, nor a tack noseband, nor even something so simple as a figure-eight noseband or even, say, a full-cheek. I do not NEED to try every arrangement on the planet to know what makes my horses happy (or do you think I SHOULD go out and try that twisted wire - after all, if I don't know whether they'd be happier in a bitless then how do I know they wouldn't be happier in that?). Both are content in variations on a loose ring french link, though the 3 y/o is still learning to accept contact. But, see, I am doing this thing called TRAINING her, so that she will, in fact, someday (soon) be able to fulfill the objectives of a simple training level test. And without that, there is no way I'd ever be able to claim to do any sort of "dressage."

[R D Lite]

Hmm, having read this entire thread it has become clear to me that I, too, belong in the EDRF.

Not only has my horse had bar shoes in the past, he is on a number of medications for an autoimmune condition and must wear polos whenever he goes out to protect his white skin. I also insist that we throw in a 20-meter circle here and there despite the fact that my ex-racer is quite convinced that galloping full tilt into the walls of the arena is more fun.

He is pestered, indeed.

[Kementari]

I also insist that we throw in a 20-meter circle here and there despite the fact that my ex-racer is quite convinced that galloping full tilt into the walls of the arena is more fun.

My TB's motto is, "Why go ROUND when you could just go FASTER?!"

It is a question I am often unable to answer to his satisfaction.

:lol:

[DocHF]

EVERYTHING pesters an Appaloosa, even when it submits with (somewhat) good grace to such indignities as bridling, saddling, its passenger wearing spurs, and, heaven forbid, being lightly tapped with dressage whip (in reaction to which he grunts like a hog - how DARE I tap him!). Only producing treats and regular feed is regarded as NOT being pestered.

why oh why did I EVER buy Sandy's horse's nephew...for it runs true in the family line...

[R D Lite]

My TB's motto is, "Why go ROUND when you could just go FASTER?!"

It is a question I am often unable to answer to his satisfaction.

:lol:

Exactly. My TB can do dressage correctly, and happily, and all that good stuff. It's just that it's not as cool as showing off by tearing past the poor lesson kid on the pony at the far end of the arena.

[Sandy M]

my I suggest as chief resident expert pesterer of the EDRF, that annuals, like E/W, Flu, Rhino, encyphilitis, Rabies and coggins can be very VERY pestering :o)
If that's not enough needling, perhaps some accupunccture might be in place?
we need to get invasive!!
The Deep Dark Darth Dirigo (DDDD)


Usually, I would agree, but I think my horse is a druggie. He's had his hocks done every six months since he was about 14 (he was never lame, but he'd start getting resistant through the back), and I think he LIKES the tranqs. He sees the vet and stretches his neck, like he's saying, "Stick the needle right here, lady..." Ahhhhhhhh.....

[Sandy M]

why oh why did I EVER buy Sandy's horse's nephew...for it runs true in the family line...


****GRIN***

(Yeah, but on the other hand, you'll have him for a loooooong time. His great-aunt is still alive and rideable, as is his maternal grandsire)

[Beasmom]

Ah, it warms the cockles of my small, hard, evil, black heart to see people flocking to the Dark Side! (What's a cockle, anyway and what's it got to do with hearts?)

As co-founder of EDRF and originator of the motto: "We pester our horses for fun. Come to the Dark Side, where all the Tack is Black", I salute and welcome you, New Members of the EDRF!

Now that we have successfully hijacked and derailed this thread, is it time to start a new thread to spread our message of horse-pestering?

All hail Darth Dirigo, inspiration for the EDRF, and ESG, founder and originator of the Evil Dressage Riders Federation.

And remember, Black is a state of mind, not just the color of your tack!

[Kementari]

Main Entry: 1cock·le [/URL]
Pronunciation: 'kä-k&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English coccel
: any of several weedy plants of the pink family; especially : CORN COCKLE

Main Entry: 2cockle
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English cokille, from Middle French coquille shell, modification of Latin conchylia, plural of conchylium, from Greek konchylion, from konchE conch
1 : any of various chiefly marine bivalve mollusks (family Cardiidae) having a shell with convex radially ribbed valves; especially : a common edible European bivalve (Cerastoderma edule syn. Cardium edule)
2 : COCKLESHELL

Main Entry: 3cockle
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English kokell, ultimately from Middle French coquillé wavy or rounded like a shell, from coquille
: PUCKER, WRINKLE[URL="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/wrinkle"] (http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif)
- cockle verb

Main Entry: cockles of the heart
Etymology: perhaps from 2cockle
: the core of one's being -- usually used in the phrase warm the cockles of the heart
Take from that what you will... :lol:
(http://www.m-w.com/images/pixt.gif)

[Sandy M]

All together now: "Crying cockles and mussels, alive, alive-O; Alive, alive-o-oh, alive, alive o-OH, crying, cockles and mussels, alive, alive-00000."

[Beasmom]

Well, alrighty, then! My marine bivalve mollusks (family cardiidae) are duly warmed!

Thanks!

[Sandy M]

All together now: "Crying cockles and mussels, alive, alive-O; Alive, alive-o-oh, alive, alive o-OH, crying, cockles and mussels, alive, alive-00000."

[Kementari]

In Dublin's fair city, where the girls are so pretty...

[MyReality]

I mostly school on flat arena with good foorting... I even muck or harrow the arena from time to time. That should make me automatically qualify for EDRF. I actually tried to school collected trot on a hack the other day, cuz I thought he would be more energetic... plus afterall, we are supposed to pester our horses all the time... well it took him no time to realize what is going on (i.e. work), gave me a few half hearted steps and proceeded to do his own thing, "gees, we're supposed to relax out here".

[Kementari]

Oh, oh, I REGULARLY do dressage out on the trails.

I am SUCH a pest. :yes:

(Just ask my horses... :lol:)

[Dirigo]

Usually, I would agree, but I think my horse is a druggie. He's had his hocks done every six months since he was about 14 (he was never lame, but he'd start getting resistant through the back), and I think he LIKES the tranqs. He sees the vet and stretches his neck, like he's saying, "Stick the needle right here, lady..." Ahhhhhhhh.....



OH MY GOD you guys crack me up!!
It sure is good to know, that I am not allone in my need to pester and annoy my poor, POOR horses!
Wether it's dressage on trails, shots, shoes, being locked stalls when the weather is rotton, or OH MY GOD bits, it's never too late to join the dark side, and one can always come up with more ways to pester.
Like "two simple" already put it so nicely... :I sure would hate to be one of my horses

DDDD (board of directors and proud member of the EDRF)

[Ghazzu]

Oh, oh, I REGULARLY do dressage out on the trails.

I am SUCH a pest. :yes:

(Just ask my horses... :lol:)

When I first met my first dressage teacher, she asked if my horse knew how to leg yield. I said, since I wasn't sure what a leg yield was, probably not.

She got on him and he leg yielded nicely.
Oh, I said. That's what you call that.
That's what I do when I'm out riding and a car is coming.

[monstrpony]

If that had been any of the people I learned dressage from, the next thing out of their mouth would have been how what I had been doing was ALL WRONG.

I went thru a phase--this was back in the Dark Ages--where I did a bunch of clinics with different instructors (okay, they were eventers, not Real Dressage People). Whenever the classic leg yield came up, I finally got smart and decided to just play dumb and pretend I hadn't a clue. I'd ask what the aids were, and they'd all say THERE'S ONLY ONE, CLASSICALLY CORRECT WAY TO DO A LEG YIELD!! and the proceed to tell me a different combination of aids from all of the other guys.:confused:

Yes, for the record, I did finally figure it out. I think.

[Bluesy]

I wanted to post much earlier, but kept on getting error messages.

Once upon a time, I was considering bitless - now, thanks to this thread, I don't think I ever would unless I had a horse with mouth issues.

(Now that I have gotten myself a KK, I have no urge to try anything else anyway)


This thread has outlived whatever usefulness it might have had. In fact, it lost its usefulness after the first couple of replies. OP and pals just didn't like the answers they got.

I'm with Egontoast -- toss out all your tack. It's all a gimmick, and everything's a gadget designed to torture our poor horses. Best yet, we all ought to give up riding horses -- it's slavery, I tell you! We should put flowers in our hair and turn our horses loose by the Interstate to run FREEEEE!
Braless, of course.


I'm so gonna get in trouble for this :uhoh:...but Beasmom - that reminds me of this guy : http://hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php?id=57&gid=1&min=9 . He cracks me up. :lol:

And I would like to be a member of EDRF, but alas, I am a hunter with non black tack :no: :cry: (However, I did spray paint an old old saddle and bridle gold for a horsey halloween party)

[Sandy M]

And I would like to be a member of EDRF, but alas, I am a hunter with non black tack :no: :cry: (However, I did spray paint an old old saddle and bridle gold for a horsey halloween party)

Ah, Bluesy, ready more carefully. Black tack is not required, only a black heart. Mwaaaah-haaa-haa-haaaaaa

(indeed, my dressage saddle is....brown! and my bridle! I do confess to have a Steubben Imperator VSS - black & tan - for hacking, however, riding with a black... wait for it......halter/sidepull.)

[Bluesy]

:D Capital!

[Beasmom]

Bluesy wrote:
I'm so gonna get in trouble for this :uhoh:...but Beasmom - that reminds me of this guy : http://hauteecole.ru/en/photogallery.php?id=57&gid=1&min=9 . He cracks me up. :lol:

And I would like to be a member of EDRF, but alas, I am a hunter with non black tack :no: :cry: (However, I did spray paint an old old saddle and bridle gold for a horsey halloween party)[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that guy and his whole website is SCAREY! Can someone tell me how he got INTO that position and how he got OUT of that position with the horse without getting himself kicked? Does he have chocks on the other side of the horse to hold him upside-down?

You're welcome to join the EDRF. Anyone who spraypaints tack gold really knows how to pester (or embarrass) a horse.

You might also be eligible for WTD! That's White Trash Dressage. We don't care what kind of tack you use. It could even be Bitless (tm)!

[hunter-eventer-hunter]

And no, snaffle bridle does not mean bit. You can attach a leather english hackmore to your snaffle bridle to turn it into a bitless alternative quite easily ;), thus retaining your "snaffle bridle" on your horse. That is why I asked.

I agree that bitless bridles should be allowed at lower levels, BUT the snaffle part of a bride is BY DEFINITION a bit. No such thing as a 'snaffle' on a bridle. The briddle is just all the leather/stappy crap. The BIT is the Snaffle.

When you have a hackamore or a bosal on a bridle it is no longer a snaffle bridle; it is a bosal, hackamore, leverage action, or pressure bridle (all okay in my book) but never a snaffle bridle.

[goeslikestink]

A horse's nose is far less sensitive than a horse's mouth... Using an extra rein on the noseband adds "different" pressure. If connected to the girth, it adds downward pressure to force the head below a certain level. Using a truely bitless bridle (like Dr. Cooks posted above) has less refinement than a bit, and far less control of the head, so it requires the horse to be even more well trained and the rider to be more adept in order to achieve the same results as a bit. Trust me, I have ridden horses that do NOT respect the bitless! They will run away with you far easier than if you had a bit in their mouth, LOL. It takes a lot of muscle and a good one rein halt, lol.

~Barbara

and a lot easier to break - by any rider -- as the bitless affects the poll chin and nose
a novice nor imtermediate shouldnt be using a bitless bridle - best leave it to the experts
perhaps understand bit and bitting

look here at thomas 1 topic

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=223453

[mp]

Good grief. Is this "Resurrect the Zombie Threads" Day?

This one's even older than the "My Perch is red hot! Your horse ain't doodly squat!" thread.

[bort84]

Good grief. Is this "Resurrect the Zombie Threads" Day?

This one's even older than the "My Perch is red hot! Your horse ain't doodly squat!" thread.

Haha!!!

[kdow]

Good grief. Is this "Resurrect the Zombie Threads" Day?

This one's even older than the "My Perch is red hot! Your horse ain't doodly squat!" thread.

I don't know, but now I want a tshirt with the EDRF motto on it.

[CatOnLap]

wasn't that

MY PERCH IS RED HOT- YOUR HORSE IS DOODLY SQUASHED? :eek:

its been a week for zombie resurrection threads. With and without bits and fear of Jane Savoie.

[slc2]

squashed by the Percheron, no doubt.

Late to the Party.

Progress Report:

The bitless people say you can do dressage and have a horse on the bit (or 'on the aids', a term that conveniently lacks the word 'bit') with a bitless bridle, and the anti bitless people say you can't. Neither side appears to be making much headway with the other.

I think I will go scratch my poison ivy.