PDA

View Full Version : *pics added to OP*an opinion from both sides of the warmblood vs arab discussion



Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:09 AM
For my entire riding career I have only ridden very high quality warmbloods. (never owned or leased any though) I recently moved, and started riding a friends 2 arabs to see what all the fuss was about.

Given the fact that these particular horses are very nice, and trained and extensively shown in western and "english" on the arab circuit, it was very interesting to see how they differ from warmbloods.

I found them to be highly motivated to work, and easier to get through, most likely because of their size and reaction time. I also found that they were very aware of everything in the arena and outside of it, and can spook really fast. lol.

I really enjoy them actually. They went from curling up in the neck at the slightest application of leg, to going forward and into the contact very nicely. VERY retrainable, even after years of western training, and showing.

also their size makes it easier to connect, but harder to get around the arena in the time allowed for most tests. diagonal lines look veeerrryyy long from on top of an arab.

I noticed that most people who have doubts about arans in dressage dont have any experience riding or training them, and most arabian supporters have little to no experience riding the big warmbloods. so I thought I would just put this out there. here are a couple pics...

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v363/JHoare85/ (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v363/JHoare85/)

STF
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:13 AM
I think any breed can do well as long as its built for it (mental, physical, etc).

ArabianDreams
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:16 AM
I ride both Arabians and WB in Dressage ( along with other breeds I train ), but specifically I have and train both Arabs and WB. Again, it is about the horse, not the breed. ;)

Ghazzu
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:10 AM
I've ridden both.

I love riding Arabs.
I don't care to ride WB's.
Other people feel the opposite.
Tastes differ.
Isn't that one reason there are so many breeds of riding horses?

BornToRide
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:50 AM
Just ride what you enjoy - life's too short to worry about small stuff ;)

egontoast
Jun. 20, 2006, 06:19 AM
A horse is a horse
of course, of course.

egontoast
Jun. 20, 2006, 08:31 AM
Here we go again with the 'my breed's better than your breed'


booooooring and petty

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 20, 2006, 09:00 AM
Ego-I don't think so. I think it's a matter of people realizing you can't judge individuals by breed (although the post above yours does have negative tones). Yes, they do have certain in-bred traits, thats what breeders strive for but it's still amazing what you may discover when you keep an open mind.

Trixie's mom
Jun. 20, 2006, 10:15 AM
I've ridden both as well as TB's and appendix QHs. I fell in love with the arab's mind in '93 and haven't gone back!!

My latest mare has (also trained for performance first) has surpassed my expectations and continually scores in the high 60's at open shows. She loves dressage- it has improved her tremendously.

But-all breeds have something to give- you just have to find what works for you!

exvet
Jun. 20, 2006, 10:35 AM
I use to own/ride/show/breed holsteiners. When my kids came along I decided to change my focus and got into welsh; however, during my "switchover" I purchased a friend's Arab who has been my constant companion ever since. He earned all my scores for my bronze, carried my husband through all sorts of trails and gave my daughter her start in showing. He is currently suffering from severe laminitis and I'm doing all I can to get him back to a level where he is at least comfortable but may have to say goodbye soon if I'm not successful. He has been my "horse of a lifetime". We've owned two other arabs, one taught both my kids how to ride and is now with another family teaching all of them to ride. Though my focus is a different breed, I can't imagine my barn without at least one Arab (hopefully THE one but only time will tell.). I don't think one breed is necessarily better than another. Yes, some are bred for specific purposes so they should excel in those areas; but, I do "identify" with certain breeds better than others and it "ain't" all about dressage (sorry).

SillyHorse
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:03 AM
Here we go again with the 'my breed's better than your breed'

booooooring and petty


Ego-I don't think so.

Well, the title of the thread does say "warmblood versus Arab..."

I agree with Eggy. Every time one of these "discussions" comes up it makes me sad. And a little angry, too. :mad: Sheesh! Just ride your damn horse the best you can and stop worrying about what kind of horse someone else is riding.

Oakstable
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:04 AM
exvet.

how tall are you that you went from riding Holsteiners to Welsh?

SillyHorse
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:10 AM
exvet.

how tall are you that you went from riding Holsteiners to Welsh?
I just want to jump in and say that when I was horse shopping I rode a 15.2 Holsteiner. He was cute as a button! They're not all huge.

MyReality
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:24 AM
I love a good Arab. They have a lot of heart, and they are sturdy things. I think the Arab breeders are doing a fantastic job... I am seeing many sports horse type these days... more correct, taller more substance. I find them very rideable and trainable... very social and willing to please. They usually have pretty good natural balance and very sure footed.

I do find tension could be a problem with Arabs but not necessarily spookier. I also find some Arabs have a little bit too much 'spring' but not necessarily articulation of the joings... so the 'up and down' movement is especially pronounced when they are nervous. Also some of them could be straight on the shoulder and hind legs, but I've been seeing fewer of those these days.

You guys find very few Arab bucks? Don't know why but I don't know any that does. The rotten ones I know bolts.

mp
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:11 PM
He is currently suffering from severe laminitis and I'm doing all I can to get him back to a level where he is at least comfortable but may have to say goodbye soon if I'm not successful. He has been my "horse of a lifetime".

I'm so sorry. Laminitis is such an ordeal for both horse and owner. I wish you the very best with him.


I can't imagine my barn without at least one Arab


Me neither ... but then I've got nine, so that's not too surprising. :lol:

I found the original post very informative and interesting. For myself, I can't imagine riding any of the enormous WBs at my barn. I like them and they're nice horses, just too big for me.

My Arabs are compact. willing and athletic as hell. The tallest one is just a little over 15h. They're also gorgeous and I love their personalities. But that's not what appeals to every horse owner. And I'm so glad it doesn't. I couldn't afford Arabians this nice if they were as popular as WBs. ;)

slc2
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:57 PM
how can it even be a discussion, and why does such a discussion even have to exist?

twnkltoz
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:00 PM
As an arab owner, I found it heartening that a WB rider finds them appealing. Thanks for the post. For those of you who found this discussion a waste of time, why are you posting on it? Move on, for crying out loud.

mp
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:16 PM
how can it even be a discussion, and why does such a discussion even have to exist?.

Your first question doesn't make sense. To answer the second ...


I noticed that most people who have doubts about arans in dressage dont have any experience riding or training them, and most arabian supporters have little to no experience riding the big warmbloods. so I thought I would just put this out there. here are a couple pics...

Where are those pics, GC? I'm sure slc will comment on them.

egontoast
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:18 PM
Ego-I don't think so. I think it's a matter of people realizing you can't judge individuals by breed (although the post above yours does have negative tones).

I was replying to the post above mine. I don't think the OP intended it to disintegrate into the usual breedism but it always does.

Twinkltoz, move on? Are you the new hall monitor?:cool:

mp
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:43 PM
I was replying to the post above mine. I don't think the OP intended it to disintegrate into the usual breedism but it always does.

Twinkltoz, move on? Are you the new hall monitor?:cool:

Awwww ... don't pick on Twink. She was replying to the post above hers. ;)

egontoast
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:46 PM
NOPE!Quit picking on me. I was rteplying to THIS!!!!

alysheba
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:50 PM
Well, I love an underdog...I have always owned Arabs. I don't ride Dressage yet, but I will be on an arab when I do.

I think the facination w/warmbloods is that they are so BIG that they make such a commanding presence. I know one person who does Dressage/Jumping that prefers arabs because there is "less horse" to bend around the course.

I just read the story of Russian Roulett+ in Arabian Horse Magazine and was once again blown away at how these animals excel outside their "specialty" areas.

MyReality
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:56 PM
Let me add this: I love a good WB as well. I absolutely love the big bouncy defined movement. I love the substance and height, and power and balance. My all time favourite is an Oldenburg I used to ride... she was fabulous! The softest horse I've ever ridden yet so naturally 'together', love her to pieces. I still prefer a WB for dressage... I have lots of positive experience on them. I rode Trakener, Holsteiner, Hano too... all of them are solid solid horses, most of them have a good mind almost tailored to sports. I was talking with a friend, we both agreed that a green even misbehaving huge moving WB, feel safer and more solid, than a TB or Arab of the same grade.

WB and Arab... they are totally different. Each horse has its own training challenges typical of the breed or atypical of the breed. I must say also, some WB are bred so big, I often wonder if the breeders are on drugs... I went to a show barn, everyone is riding those 17hh + horses even pushing 18hh... with their legs way up there, couldn't imagine it would be fun. :eek:

alysheba
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:58 PM
Also...and if I am wrong, plz don't chastize me..but can't a warmblood be half-arab?? Isn't a "Warmblood" breeding a "hot" breed to a "cold" one? So wouldnt say...a Percheon/Arab be a warmblood?

I always thought that would be SUCH a pretty combination...

I also want to say I am impressed that there are so many Arab fans in here!!!

Can anyone remember the name of that little arab stallion who competes at the Grand Prix level that was bought out of a kill pen for $220? I can't remember his name..

mp
Jun. 20, 2006, 02:18 PM
I was talking with a friend, we both agreed that a green even misbehaving huge moving WB, feel safer and more solid, than a TB or Arab of the same grade.

You mean you feel safer on the WB? That's interesting. Although my Arabs can do a neat 180 and be going in the opposite direction before you know it. The drop shoulder 10 ft spook/leap to the side is an old favorite, too. I guess I'm used to it. What scares me is bottled up energy/tension and Arabs aren't noted for that. ;)


I must say also, some WB are bred so big, I often wonder if the breeders are on drugs... I went to a show barn, everyone is riding those 17hh + horses even pushing 18hh... with their legs way up there, couldn't imagine it would be fun. :eek:

The four at my barn are all well over 17h. One of the owners is a good friend and she's going to let me ride her sweet monster sometime, just so I can see the view from up there. Unfortunately, he's been lame most of the past year. :( I feel so bad for them both.

Egon ... I'm replying to the post that's above the post above this one (I think). And I ain't picking on anybody.

twnkltoz
Jun. 20, 2006, 02:26 PM
Move along, move along...nothing to see here.

HEY! Where's your pass??

Janet
Jun. 20, 2006, 02:28 PM
Isn't a "Warmblood" breeding a "hot" breed to a "cold" one? So wouldnt say...a Percheon/Arab be a warmblood?
NO.

Trixie's mom
Jun. 20, 2006, 02:59 PM
twnk...good sense of humor!! :)

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 20, 2006, 05:54 PM
I added the photo link in the original post. I have been riding them about 3 days a week for the last month. prior to that they were strictly western (the black one) and "english" the bay one. (englich hinters, imagine high knees, no back/hindquaters, etc)

I think people have made this into a decent discussion, which is nice, because I never meant it to be a "X versus X". it was just an open opinion about both...which i had never heard before.

twnkltoz
Jun. 20, 2006, 06:02 PM
They look great...would love to hear more about them! They're gorgeous...I don't guess you know anything about their breeding or anything?

merrygoround
Jun. 20, 2006, 06:13 PM
slc might not comment.

The horse looks fine, the rider needs a helmet.

As for the rest of this-I haven't yet met a western trained horse, that was well trained whoo was incapable of a First level test, right off the bat, with a little careful riding. Note I said well trained. Not some of those poor critturs you see out there with the ruined gaits.

Asbestos time.

mp
Jun. 20, 2006, 06:58 PM
"oooooh!!! ahhhh!!!!"

Bugs-n-Frodo
Jun. 20, 2006, 08:17 PM
Just to generalize a bit, I don't think any breed (as a whole) has "quite" the same connection to humans as the Arab does. They were bred for hundreds of years to live right in the tents with humans. Every single breed on the planet has all their own strengths, traits, and qualities, but the Arab generally has just a "little bit" different personality than other breeds. I'm not necessarily saying it is better - but just different. No matter who I talk to about Arabs, they usually always say something about the Arab's personality, willingness, and trainability. Arabs just seem to yearn to please humans and to be next to them. It seems like whenever you walk out across a field of horses, the Arabs will usually be the first one to come up to you and then the most likely to follow you around for the next hour hanging over your shoulder. They just seem to truly adore human companionship and that is the major reason why I love them so much.


TS, I can say ALL of that about my 3 year old Trakehner gelding, seriously. I love my boy, I love the Trakehenr breed (I also love the TB breed) and because I love them so much, I tend to think everyone should and that those who don't are blind. However, this is not a discussion of MY BREED IS BETTER THAN YOUR BREED.

I love a GOOD Arab, and of those good Arabs, I have noticed lately, most have been Polish. I am just as impressed with an athletic Arab as I am with an Athletic WB, or TB. I think sometimes, that Arabs don't alway get a fair shake, and I can relate to that with my own boy. Trakehners have tons of breed stereo-types associated with them as well. I have seen, and ridden several Arabs who had a NATURAL talent for dressage. I can say that, of all the breeds I have ridden, Arabs ALSO have an ENDLESS supply of evasions as well, putting to use their flexiblity/suppleness. But, boy, when they go to work, they GO to work. They can have a TON of presence, it is not just a matter of size.

The problem, try as you might, WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE have bought into the stereo-types out there about Arabs. It is a shame really, because, while I love my WBs, some people look REDICULOUS on them and would be better suited riding the smaller sporty model. Seriously. I am small, not quite 5'4, but I have LONG legs. I do not look small on Frodo, we fit, quite well in my opinion. I spent 16 years riding a narrow TB mare who was 15.3h on her tippy toes, I looked fine on her as well, and, I rode my best friends arab who managed to make it to 14.2h. It is a matter of taste, experience and willingness to venture off the beaten path.

After saying all of that, there are SEVERAL Arab/WB crosses that I have drooled over. They can REALLY compliment each other givien careful and attentive breeding. I am, of course, partial to the Arab/Trakehner cross. In fact, one of my favorite Trakehner stallions, OskarII (http://americantrakehner.com/Stallions/OskarII.asp), has quite a bit of Arab blood in him. ;)

bjrudq
Jun. 20, 2006, 08:37 PM
i never liked arabs until i was given the opportunity to ride a young one and get him ready for his first baby distance ride(20km).

i have never met a horse who learned so fast, and seemed to read my mind at times.

i love my swb mares, love and have owned tbs, my first horse was a wonderful qh who i evented tl,

but my fave horse of all time was the horse i bought for my stepson: a half arab, half app mare whose personality was absolutely noble. (she was also a nice mover and a good little jumper, and anyone could ride her.)

egontoast
Jun. 20, 2006, 09:10 PM
I've got a wb and a non wb and they are both great guys who like to sleep in the tent trailer with us. :cool:

NoDQhere
Jun. 20, 2006, 10:24 PM
Also...and if I am wrong, plz don't chastize me..but can't a warmblood be half-arab?? Isn't a "Warmblood" breeding a "hot" breed to a "cold" one? So wouldnt say...a Percheon/Arab be a warmblood?


No, an Arabian / Draft cross is never a Warmblood. But an Arabian of the right type can be graded (approved) into a Warmblood Registry and then produce Warmbloods when bred to an approved Warmblood. We have a few purebred Arabians and Anglo Arabs in our program and have been very happy with the results.

Ghazzu
Jun. 20, 2006, 10:38 PM
I've met a couple Arab/draft crosses who were lovely animals, but IMHO, it is a cross that has to be done carefully as regards individuals. Else you can end up with the worst of both breeds.

One was a Clyde/Arab cross.
Scored consistently in the 60's through 4th level--unfortunately, the scores were an average of 4's and 8's--he did not like putting together an entire test.

The other was an Arab/Shire cross who was a good looking heavyweight hunter type, who was owned by a woman who rode him western pleasure. She loved Arabs, but was too big for a purebred.
The mare was gorgeous, and might have made a good dressage horse, as she was a lovely mover.

Shiaway
Jun. 20, 2006, 10:39 PM
My lusitano might be small, short and fat but he can still kick all of your WBs, Arabians, TBs, DraftX etc. etc. 's butts.

He likes to look angelic and inocent when he first meets another horse and then wham! He turns into mean "super-sol" ready to kill. He'd take on any of ya'lls whimpy horses. hee hee hee

Check it out. He's ready for action:
http://www.geocities.com/orgleoso/evil.html

twnkltoz
Jun. 21, 2006, 01:48 AM
There was an arab/perch cross at the last couple of arab shows I went to. She was a GREAT mover and really pretty.

exvet
Jun. 21, 2006, 03:08 AM
exvet.

how tall are you that you went from riding Holsteiners to Welsh?

I'm 5'2". I had a couple of TB's (mares) & holsteiner (registered & approved) geldings & mares (C & R lines mostly) which ranged in size from 16.1 to 16.3 for the purpose of dressage as I mistakenly thought that "it" was the only path to get "there". I rode hunters for years before that and always had the notion that bigger was better; however, I also catch rode ponies for a former trainer too because of my size. The welsh I currently have or have owned are/were section D welsh cobs who range(d) in size from 14.1 to 15.2. The one exception was the welsh pony (section A) that my daughter started out on. He was/is 11.2 hands and I frequently hopped on him for a tune up. I can pretty much ride any size of beast but feel most comfortable on 14.3 - 15.2.

I'm so sorry. Laminitis is such an ordeal for both horse and owner. I wish you the very best with him.

Thank you MP. Things are still very touch and go right now. We appreciate any and all good thoughts.

cuatx55
Jun. 21, 2006, 10:01 AM
Nice looking horses! I'd be happy to take one (or both!)...it's so neat how they soak up new things very quickly.

I own a Spanish-bred arab and am having a blast...For me she is a great fit. I've also enjoyed other breeds. I would like to buy a WBxArab for my next horse.

Sakura
Jun. 21, 2006, 11:59 AM
I really like the bay in the pics! He looks happy to be there doing his job :).

I think as long as I own an Arabian I will never have or want a dog... you get both in one animal ;).

I like Two Simple's story about the half wild youngsters, it really hits home... Last year my mare foaled six days before I delivered our son... (ummmm, I don't recommend mare watch when you are nine months preggers :o), so you can imagine that foal had very little handling for the first couple of weeks. No worries though, I knew she would come around; now she is the first one to come to the fence for scratches and pats .

I love a good horse of any breed. I have worked with many different horses with all kinds of dispositions and they have all taught me something. A horse treats every rider as a clean slate... why can't every rider extend the same courtesy to the horse?

Samjen
Jun. 21, 2006, 12:10 PM
I will prob. get beat for such a silly question but......I am confused

If you are talking about a type of horse then wouldn't a hotblood and a coldblood cross be a warmblood? I mean it wouldn't be a hot blood and it isn't a cold blood. Technically an Arabian is a hotblood but thats not its breed. Should I not be thinking 1+1=2 on such simple terms?

From what I thought most "real" WBs developed from mixing hotbloods and coldbloods selectively........so wouldn't the draft/hotblood cross be a predcurser to the "Real" WB? Just a question because when I think hot/coldblood I think of type 1st then breed. If not what type are they?

Now if your talking about breeds thats a different story then no an arab/draft cross is not a registerable warmblood except in certian performance registerys?

I like both arabs and WBs. I have an anglo myself but can see the beauty of a WB too.

Jazzy Lady
Jun. 21, 2006, 12:22 PM
I event and I currently own a DW/SF who is spectacular and I love him to bits and rarely don't win the dressage.

I used to own an egyptian Arab and I've never met another horse like him. He took a bit to get it, but once it was there, it was there. It was like overnight with him, a lightbulb turned on and suddlenly he was round, forward, and swinging. I've never met a horse who LOVED the dressage ring as much as him. He was the biggest show off. He'd get in the ring and was an absolute pleasure to ride in it because he loved it so much. He's cleaning up here in Ontario with his new owner. She's only got him to second so far, but he's got tons of potential. http://community.webshots.com/photo/86359959/1516830736048917466EEZKkB#

His mind was fabulous for dressage, he HATED to jump away from home. But he was a real sweetie to deal with.

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 21, 2006, 12:35 PM
slc might not comment.

The horse looks fine, the rider needs a helmet.

Asbestos time.

first - why wouldnt slc reply? she replies to most other riding photos posted. ;)

second - why would it matter if she did or didnt? :confused:

third - please keep your helmet comments to yourself :yes:

the black horse had no walk, trot or canter when i first started riding him. he had a lateral amble type walk, jog, and a 4 beat croup high lope. very well trained for a western pleasure horse, but not acceptable for the dressage court!!!!

mp
Jun. 21, 2006, 01:27 PM
first - why wouldnt slc reply? she replies to most other riding photos posted. ;)

Because twknltoz, aka The Hall Monitor, told her to go away if she thought this was such a stupid subject.


second - why would it matter if she did or didnt? :confused:

It doesn't. Not one whit.


the black horse had no walk, trot or canter when i first started riding him. he had a lateral amble type walk, jog, and a 4 beat croup high lope. very well trained for a western pleasure horse, but not acceptable for the dressage court!!!!


Weeeeelllll .... that's what usually wins in Arabian WP. And I suppose the horse would have to be well trained (and pretty tolerant) to be squashed up to move like that. But it's not what I'd call a well-trained WP horse.

And now you know why I quit showing in it, even though I loved the clothes. :lol: I called it quits after getting the gate in favor of horses that loped the entire way around the arena on the wrong lead, but whose heads (and gaits) were correctly squinched up. I had a great ride, my horse has a beautiful lope, but her head was slightly ahead of the vertical. :p

And to make this dressage-related ... The pictures of dressage riders using rollkur remind me of how Arabian WP horses are warmed up. Lovely. Simply lovely.

doccer
Jun. 21, 2006, 01:40 PM
I think the trot pics are fab, coming along nicely :) It looks like you're doing a good job. I really enjoy seeing ANY breed relaxed and swinging in their work. (Altho, they all seem behind the bit to me)

If this thread wasn't about which breed is better, the title would be changed.

kkj
Jun. 21, 2006, 01:41 PM
Gucci Cowgirl,
If you put pictures of yourself up and make assertions, people are going to comment. I don't think the mention of a helmet was out of line...but moving on.

I have nothing against Arabs. I know a trainer with who is highly competitive on the warmbloods but I have seen her ride a customers arab. He is a great mover, through, seeks the contact, uphill etc. If I were smaller, I would consider a horse like him. I am quite tall and find Arabs to be too small. By the way, you look kind of big on those guys. Not that you are big at all but the picture is not as show ring pleasing as you would be on a larger horse. Also, the saddle looks too small.

You say you found these guys to be "highly motivated to work, and easier to get through" but they do not look truly through in any of the pictures. They still look a bit broken in the back, croup high and not seeking the contact but curling. Have you noticed where the poll is in the pictures or that the hocks appear quite a lot higher than the knees?

I don't doubt that they are smart, trainable, or fun to ride, but they perhaps haven't been retrained to this great through dressage horse quite yet. Undoing those issues takes a lot of time regardless of how good you are. They may never get there. I wish you luck because you look like a good rider and if you are having fun with them, go for it.

Used Tack n Horse Stuff Store
Jun. 21, 2006, 01:48 PM
NO.

Well technically, YES.
Sorry to disagree.

Ghazzu
Jun. 21, 2006, 02:22 PM
And to make this dressage-related ... The pictures of dressage riders using rollkur remind me of how Arabian WP horses are warmed up. Lovely. Simply lovely.

That was what I thought of too, the first time I saw it...ick.

Ghazzu
Jun. 21, 2006, 02:24 PM
Well technically, YES.
Sorry to disagree.

Well, technically NO.:D
Try registering one of these Arab/draft crosses in a warmblood studbook.

Used Tack n Horse Stuff Store
Jun. 21, 2006, 02:29 PM
Well, technically NO.:D
Try registering one of these Arab/draft crosses in a warmblood studbook.

How about the AWS.
It could happen.
The foal could also be registered as a Half Arab.

And please don't forget the Trak book, which is closed. They have a couple of incredible FULL ARAB stallions that are approved, only to approved Trak mares.

Ghazzu
Jun. 21, 2006, 02:49 PM
How about the AWS.
It could happen.
The foal could also be registered as a Half Arab.

And please don't forget the Trak book, which is closed. They have a couple of incredible FULL ARAB stallions that are approved, only to approved Trak mares.

Leaving aside he issue of the AWS, which will take *anything*, so long as it isn't 100% draft or 100% Arab or TB,
the half-Arab studbook is *not* a warmblood registry.
And, while I am fully aware of the fact that there are some PB Arab stallions approved by the Trakhener resgistry, that is far from the example of taking a *draft* and crossing it with an *Arab* and attempting to get the offspring entered in the Trak studbook. As you note yourself, the choice of mares is quite restricted, and I don't see anything about *draft* mares...

mp
Jun. 21, 2006, 02:57 PM
How about the AWS.
It could happen.
The foal could also be registered as a Half Arab.

And please don't forget the Trak book, which is closed. They have a couple of incredible FULL ARAB stallions that are approved, only to approved Trak mares.

I don't think anyone is forgetting about the Trak book, which also has approved some p.b. Arabian mares (Bazy Tankersley-bred), if memory serves.

I bet the question that caused the "NO" was this one:


So wouldnt say...a Percheon/Arab be a warmblood?

I'll leave it to people who know something about WBs to say if that answer is correct, AWS notwithstanding.

I agree with whoever said draft/Arab crosses are a huge crapshoot. A friend has a Belgian/Arab mare that is a very nice mover. Standing still, however, the horse looks more suited to pulling a beer wagon than dressage. The owner did register her as a half-Arab, but not with AWS.

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 21, 2006, 04:10 PM
I of course agree that they are too far behind the vertical, but the fact that their legs are literally still moving forward AND that they have a decent contact is light years ahead of how they were going before. remember these horses are not trained to take any sort of contact. the black one, if you put him on contact, and add leg, he just got shorter and deeper and more stung out behind. thats how he was trained.

the bay one, used to curl his neck at any thought of being put on contact, and was used to floating around 3 moles too long both in front and behind the saddle, and not having to shift his center of balance from front to back.

the fact that they have any amount of contact is a GOOD thing. remember where they started, then make judgements ;)

also, this is all in good fun, I am not or have not ever considered them dressage horses, they just needed excercise and I was happy to ride them. so the fact that I am too big for them is completely accurate, just moot.

WBLover
Jun. 21, 2006, 04:38 PM
Uggh! "Warmblood" has become quite a generic term these days. If you were to ask someone who was producing a TV show, who's maybe done a little research on the surface to come up with a definition of what a "warmblood" is for the average viewer out there, they would say it's a cross of a "coldblood" (draft) to a "hotblood" (TB or Arab).

However, to the really nitpicky die-hard horse enthusiasts (such as me!), "warmbloods" would refer to breeds in the European registries, such as Hanoverian, Oldenburger, Dutch, Swedish, etc. If you look at the lineage of those horses, they came from heavier carriage-type horses (not draft horses which are MUCH heavier) crossed with lighter types such as TB or Arab. The goal was to make the carriage type horse more into a riding type (not just in size or bone thickness, but also structure and movement). The breeds were refined and improved by infusing the right types over generations into todays warmbloods which are bred for sport.

Mixing a draft horse to a TB or Arab basically skips all the years of selective breeding that has been established and controlled by the European warmblood registries, and essentially you are skipping all the steps that have taken years to produce this type of horse, and also at the same time taking a crapshoot on what the resulting offspring will be.

Of course some of the "draft crosses" (which I like to refer to them as instead of "warmbloods") do end up making nice riding horses, and some do make it to the top. But again, it's a crapshoot and I think the draft crosses that make it to the top of their sport are more the exception rather than the norm.

Phew, that's the quickest and dirtiest explanation I can come up with!

stuge
Jun. 21, 2006, 05:04 PM
I think for most people there is a distinction between a warmblood as a type and a Warmblood as a breed. As a general warmblood, most *general* horsemen would consider a warmblood a cross between a draft and a hotblooded horse (which I think are only arabs and tbs). QHs and everything else inbetween in theory is a warmblood. So it really depends on who you ask.

People that breed warmbloods will say that only Hanoverians, Traks, Oldenburgs, etc are warmbloods. I don't think it takes away from these breeds to call draft crosses warmbloods as well so I don't understand why some people seem to take it personally. Obviously, the Warmblood breeds have had years of selective and strict breeding and in general makes for a superiour sporthorse.

Regarding the AWS, I thought they had inspections? Do they mean anything? It would be nice if they got there act together and started selective registration.

goeslikestink
Jun. 21, 2006, 06:25 PM
ditch your spurs -- and close your hands
and your arab has tongue over bit --

bring your hands back to pomel position --

its not about breeds as any breed can do dreessage mines an old coblett

but will say your hands are strong on the bit and hevy --

becuase you ride open hand bit like a newsapaper then you relaying
on the horse and hes doing your thinking astispating --

so close your hands and ask the horse more in a polite manor then you will get a better repsonse that judges might give you more points for

goeslikestink
Jun. 21, 2006, 06:28 PM
no offence meant but try using your legs and not the spurs

if you ride with close hands and brring the horse up into the bit
then you can lenghten andshorten strides

in those piccys you going to fast-- for a dressage test

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 21, 2006, 07:25 PM
ditch your spurs -- and close your hands
and your arab has tongue over bit --

exactly when did I ask for a riding critique? hands are wide for a reason - they create less of an "escape" area for a horse to get behind the bit. and no, he doesnt have his tongue over the bit, he is licking his lips, which is a bad habit created by twisted wire snaffles and bicycle chains that he wore at the arab barns.

bring your hands back to pomel position --

once again, hands are where I want them on this horse at this point in time.



its not about breeds as any breed can do dreessage mines an old coblett

when did any one on this thread say or imply that only certain breeds can do dressage?

but will say your hands are strong on the bit and hevy --

its called creating contact. horses dont become light in the hand without first learning to create a strong contact...its from the hind legs starting to push off the ground, not from me pulling back.

becuase you ride open hand bit like a newsapaper then you relaying
on the horse and hes doing your thinking astispating --

does a baby horse under saddle get ridden with hands half an inch apart? no. the triangle idea creates stability in contact for young and remedial horses, until they can balance and accept contact consistently.

so close your hands and ask the horse more in a polite manor then you will get a better repsonse that judges might give you more points for

did you not read the post I made that said "I have not or ever considered these horses dressage, it is purely for fun and excercise." when did I say these were ever going to be in front of a judge? Also, the photo you call "too fast" is called "impulsion" And those spurs are impossible for me to actually put on the horses' sides, as they are tiny and my legs hang past the wide part of both horses' ribs.

Lets see some photos of you riding remedial or baby horses that have been trained in the exact opposite way that you ride...I would love to see them as the tone of your posts suggests you are quite an amazing professional trainer.


do your research before you attack someone's riding. I would never ask for a riding critique on an internet forum. For me forums are for discussions. I have a trainer, thank you. I would appreciate it if you could keep those comments to yourself, as you are not my trainer, and I would bet a hundred million dollars you couldnt hold a candle to mine ;)

slc2
Jun. 21, 2006, 09:28 PM
well look at you gucci cowgirl. i didn't know you were such a beehotch. goes like stink, i don't agree with your critique, which just sounds like picking, you totally missed the fundamental issues of the pictures. there are 4 times you should run the other way. one. when someone is having trouble with their kid misbehaving in a public place. two. when someone is havint trouble with their dog in a public place. three, when someone is loading a horse and it won't get on. four, when someone proudly posts pictures of them riding on a bulletin board.

Ghazzu
Jun. 21, 2006, 09:36 PM
People that breed warmbloods will say that only Hanoverians, Traks, Oldenburgs, etc are warmbloods. I don't think it takes away from these breeds to call draft crosses warmbloods as well so I don't understand why some people seem to take it personally. Obviously, the Warmblood breeds have had years of selective and strict breeding and in general makes for a superiour sporthorse.

You just answered your own question.




Regarding the AWS, I thought they had inspections? Do they mean anything? It would be nice if they got there act together and started selective registration.

What I meant by "take anything" was any old breed of horse or pony. I imagine they at least look at the beasts. At least I hope so.

egontoast
Jun. 21, 2006, 09:50 PM
he doesnt have his tongue over the bit, he is licking his lips, which is a bad habit created by twisted wire snaffles and bicycle chains that he wore at the arab barns.

but the riders in the arab barns smile more than the riders of wbs. I think I read that here somewhere.:)

Ghazzu
Jun. 21, 2006, 09:55 PM
but the riders in the arab barns smile more than the riders of wbs. I think I read that here somewhere.:)

Yabbut some of us are riding in french links, too.

alysheba
Jun. 21, 2006, 10:06 PM
Hmmmmmmm...Thank you for the Warmblood explaination. It may sound that in theory a Perch/Arab cross would be a WB, but if it is determined by selective breeding, I can't and won't argue with that. In fact, I think the selective breeding is def the way to go. (watching my Perch/Arab dreams fly out the window...)

And I have to agree w/the riding critique. Not the opinions of the pictures themselves (I don't have the knowlege to make any judgements) But that when you put pic's on here, they WILL be critiqued. A lot of these ppl are trainers, etc...it's in their nature to do so. Some people are pretty blunt about what they say. I once put a pic of a Morgan on here as a possible Dressage prospect, and someone flat out said "I don't like him". :lol:

I'm glad this didn't turn into a "my breed is better than yours", because our horses..if ever they met would probably all get along just fine together. :)

By the way...you have some VERY pretty horses!!!!

Shiaway
Jun. 21, 2006, 10:27 PM
<exactly when did I ask for a riding critique? >

When you posted pictures.

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 21, 2006, 11:24 PM
this is hilarious. does that mean that it is physically impossible for some people to keep their comments to themselves when what they are commenting on is irrelevant and in no way contributing to a healthy discussion about the TOPIC presented?

mp
Jun. 21, 2006, 11:39 PM
Good grief,cowgirl. After nearly 5 years and 3,000+ posts, you just noticed that threads don't always stay ON TOPIC???

So sorry for my comments. I'll go back and edit it to say "oooooh!!! ahhhh!!!!"


I think for most people there is a distinction between a warmblood as a type and a Warmblood as a breed.

I agree. If someone says her horse is a warmblood type, I think "big mutt." If someone says her horse is a warmblood, I think "big." ;)

exvet
Jun. 22, 2006, 12:20 AM
do your research before you attack someone's riding. I would never ask for a riding critique on an internet forum. For me forums are for discussions. I have a trainer, thank you. I would appreciate it if you could keep those comments to yourself, as you are not my trainer, and I would bet a hundred million dollars you couldnt hold a candle to mine

Not attacking or making critiques. Actually I like both horses & don't see why they can't be "dressage" horses should anyone be interested. My Arab started out life as a reining prospect, then was tried as a park horse, then came to me after a year or two in dressage. Most riders around here don't go much beyond 1st level and I'd be willing to bet that both horses could be competitive at the lower levels. I am curious as to who your trainer is if you don't mind.....but if you do I certainly understand.

alysheba
Jun. 22, 2006, 12:34 AM
this is hilarious. does that mean that it is physically impossible for some people to keep their comments to themselves when what they are commenting on is irrelevant and in no way contributing to a healthy discussion about the TOPIC presented?

Its not that you don't have a good point, its just that it always happens when someone posts pic's. Most of the time the ppl arent being mean, and lots of times their comments can be helpful. I do understand where you are coming from though. Maybe add a "Please dont critique" clause to your picture posts.

goeslikestink
Jun. 22, 2006, 03:48 AM
i am not normally like that- posting on piccys -- and being off-- or as you pick on -- wasnt -- any breed to me is as good as the next--

and no one breeds better than another -- its how you show it off
that makes it better than next one standing next to you


i like all breed and types - and crosses..

kkj
Jun. 22, 2006, 08:56 AM
Gucci Cowgirl, It wasn't the pictures that got me in critique mode, it was the comments or rather assertions that went along with them. You said that the Arabs were "easier to get through" and "going forward and into the contact" nicely. The pictures show rather clearly that neither of these are true. I don't doubt that they have made a lot of progress or that you will continue to do so with them, but your assertions are what I took issue with.

By the way, my 17 hand KWPN warmblood that does not have TB or Arab anywhere near up close is super easy to get through, sensitive, forward into the contact etc. She was going a hell of a lot better than those arabs after a month under saddle. Now I realize they were trained in a non dressage (dare I say "bad" way) and that is much harder to undo than doing it correctly from the get go. However, I take issue with the assertion that "arabs are easier to get through" Those pictures do not support that claim at all.

WBLover
Jun. 22, 2006, 09:08 AM
Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....

nightmoves
Jun. 22, 2006, 09:25 AM
Also...and if I am wrong, plz don't chastize me..but can't a warmblood be half-arab?? Isn't a "Warmblood" breeding a "hot" breed to a "cold" one? So wouldnt say...a Percheon/Arab be a warmblood?

I always thought that would be SUCH a pretty combination...

I also want to say I am impressed that there are so many Arab fans in here!!!

Can anyone remember the name of that little arab stallion who competes at the Grand Prix level that was bought out of a kill pen for $220? I can't remember his name..

A hot blood, cold blood cross would be a warmblood NOT a Warmblood.

Ghazzu
Jun. 22, 2006, 09:37 AM
Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....

I'd say there were more exceptions than rule, here.
The problem is, you never see the ones that have consistently been bred for things other than the halter ring, because their owners aren't paying for multiple page spreads and PR.
They're out riding the beasts.

slc2
Jun. 22, 2006, 09:42 AM
sometimes it's a 'lovely combination' and sometimes it's not.

a half arab half wb can't always be registered in the warmblood registry. it depends on the status of the arab parent and which registry one is referring to.

there is not enough consistency in 'Arabs' to judge them as a whole all the time. One can make some general observations, but always keep in midn they may not hold.

More problematic is the training many of them get, which tends to make any 'typical' conformation faults perform worse and not get remediated.

and some have weak hocks that twist and don't engage well even at a walk. Some have very exaggerated conformation that causes them to be 'inverted', or drop the back and push the hind quarters out behind them; some lack suppleness in the hind quarters and their hocks wind up 'working out' behind them without a swing to the hindquarter or a forward reach to the hind leg, instead, the hind legs wind up out behind the horse with the hind legs looking like they are 'tied together at the hock'. the weakness in the back and hind quarter 'work together' to cause an overall problem with the whole topline of the horse.

an additional problem is the high head carriage. if present, that requires a very clever rider to get true collection instead of a kind of false carriage that LOOKS like collection to a novice, but isn't. some arabs are bred and selected for a type of temperament that just isn't useful in a working horse of any type, too. i've had arabian breeders brag, 'oh my horses couldn't POSSIBLY be used for dressage, they're far too nervous for that'. um.

in addition, the gaits of some are not the best for dressage. there's a very high proportion of 'lateral' or pacey canters, and of 'trappy' trots that go up and down but not forward. pacey walks are common too, though it's very hard to separate years of bad training from what their natural gaits are.

at the same time, though, there are so many arabians, just like all the other domestic breeds, that are 'backyard bred' by people who have an adored pet that should never be bred, and have extremely poor conformation for any riding sport. these are very common and not the ideal of the breed.

i've also seen arabians with absolutely ideal conformation and gaits for dressage, that received early training for the kind of 'saddle seat' style of riding so popular in the arab rings, and despite perfect conformation, the horses could never be taught to take a confident steady contact with the bit or be redone from that training,.

i think the best arabian i ever saw in dressage was an absolutely gorgeous russian bred gelding my friend had. the horse didn't have a nervous bone in his body, and was the steadiest, most reliable animal, never nervous or timid, and could focus perfectly on training and he just had no tension, lack of confidence or fear. he had a back like a beam, absolutely perfect hocks and an incredible shoulder. he moved with a suppleness and smoothness that could not be beaten, could collect or extend his strides, had a perfect 3 beat canter and an excellent, swoopy, tiger like walk.

stuge
Jun. 22, 2006, 09:57 AM
Gucci Cowgirl, It wasn't the pictures that got me in critique mode, it was the comments or rather assertions that went along with them. You said that the Arabs were "easier to get through" and "going forward and into the contact" nicely. The pictures show rather clearly that neither of these are true. I don't doubt that they have made a lot of progress or that you will continue to do so with them, but your assertions are what I took issue with.By the way, my 17 hand KWPN warmblood that does not have TB or Arab anywhere near up close is super easy to get through, sensitive, forward into the contact etc. She was going a hell of a lot better than those arabs after a month under saddle. Now I realize they were trained in a non dressage (dare I say "bad" way) and that is much harder to undo than doing it correctly from the get go. However, I take issue with the assertion that "arabs are easier to get through" Those pictures do not support that claim at all.

Is it not possible that perhaps these horses are *more* through than a month ago and perhaps the OP meant that the horses have come along faster in the last month than say other breeds might have in the same situation (ya know started off in a completely different discipline with completely different objectives)? I think that is what she was trying to say. Can a horse not be more through or is it an all the way kind of thing? Is a horse either "through" or not or can it be a little bit through? Even in the early stages of training or retraining?

"Easier" to come through is all relative. We all come to conclusions and make generalizations from our own personal experiences.

Guccigirl, I think the horses look lovely and from what you have described they have come far. It looks like you are doing a nice job with them. I do agree though, that if you post pictures you should be ready for critiques whether you actually want them or not. Critiques are not bad a bad thing unless they start getting personal or mean (which I don't think any were). So take them for what they are worth and learn from them. Perhaps post a before picture as well. But you are right, the critiques from this BB are in no way shape or form going to compare to a good riding instructor. Are you working with someone on these horses?

slc2
Jun. 22, 2006, 10:14 AM
the horses aren't 'through' at all. they're stuck in the neck and dropped in the back. it's the kind of false bearing that many people find comfortable and easy to attain, but it isn't correct.

MyReality
Jun. 22, 2006, 11:20 AM
To give the Arab fans some credit, I have seen way more sport horse type Arabs these years than in the past. However, I still see many misunderstanding these days, usually from novice riders: who mistook deer like movements and behaviours as being good for dressage... which is furthest furthest from the truth. So you don't want to see any prospect, to have a jump in each step but not really going forward, as if the animal is dancing on hot coal. You want a prospect, to really bend those joints and propell himself forward... and each step looks grounded and solid (but not earth shattering as in heavy like some drafts)... and there is an effort (but not laboured effort) to reach under and over.

I also slightly disagree with the OP that Arabs are easy to come through. I have the opposite experience, that Arabs and many hot bloods like TB, tension is the biggest enemy which makes them generally hard to come through. A responsive and manuvourable horse does not necessarily equate to a soft and supple horse. Transitions, lots of them, will usually expose the problem.

exvet
Jun. 22, 2006, 11:59 AM
I also slightly disagree with the OP that Arabs are easy to come through. I have the opposite experience, that Arabs and many hot bloods like TB, tension is the biggest enemy which makes them generally hard to come through. A responsive and manuvourable horse does not necessarily equate to a soft and supple horse. Transitions, lots of them, will usually expose the problem.

How true, at least, it has been my experience as well. However, despite the difficulty I have found my Arab partner to be well worth the extra effort. Yes, because of it I was often frustrated & took much longer than some to earn a medal before topping out due to health & conformational issues because again he is an Arab. For many of us who love Arabs whether in general or have simply found that special "one" I think it comes back to the partnership and that special bond. I have found welsh cobs to be "easier" in some ways because of exactly what you've stated and yet still possessing their own conformational challenges. I have to ride what I love & love what I ride. It has nothing to do with "my" breed(s) being better than anyone else's. It simply me and my horse and striving to do as well as is feasible/possible in the discipline I prefer. I do agree with the OP that Arabs can be fun & a very pleasant surprise.

mp
Jun. 22, 2006, 12:36 PM
Yes. Tension is the problem. And it's not the kind of spooky, jump around tension that some people associate with hotbloods. It's a quick quick quickness that turns nearly ANY attempt on my part to correct my horse into an over correction, which can become an evasion if I'm not careful. It's almost overthinking on the horse's part. And mine, too, I guess.

But when my horse and I are in sync (it happens every now and then LOL), the tension becomes sensitivity, which makes for an incredible ride. I think and she does. But getting there -- and staying there consistently -- can be ummmm ... fun. ;)

As exvet said, it's not about one breed being better than the other. It's about what you want out of "your horse experience." I'm not tiny, but I'm not a big person either and I prefer smaller horses. I also like to do all sorts of things with my horses -- trail ride, fool around with cattle, show them (maybe even breed shows again!!!). I also occasionally stand back and just admire their pretty faces. Yes, I like a pretty horse. No use pretending I don't. But that was never my primary consideration when I bred one. I went for good conformation and a good mind first. Always. I never considered sacrificing those two things for big eyes and a jibbah.

sporthorsefilly
Jun. 22, 2006, 01:06 PM
Cowgirl, your bay Arab is just lovely, he looks so much like the one I lost recently after 17 years of treasuring him. I had him from a yearling until his death. Two colic surgeries couldn't save him. I remember calling to him as he came out of anesthesia, and he whinnyed back to me...there wasn't a dry eye to be had. It was so hard to let him go.

Arabs are the foundation of most breeds. My lovely TBs wouldn't be here if not for the arab horse, nor would the lovely WBs with the Selle Francais, Anglo Arabs behind them.

Dressage people tend to want the more forwardly moving long striding horse...today. Arabs don't have the extravagant stride that the WB has, and is therefore at a loss when competing against them.

As a young trainer, I had a student with an obnoxious father. The student had an Arab that the father had trained and loved. The father once told me, that "I would NEVER find a smarter horse!" Naturally at the time I considered this nonsense. Well for 17 years, I repeated that to myself everyday. I adored my arab as a wonderful partner, whom anyone could ride. He was especially careful with small children, and the BEST trail horse ever. I miss him terribly.

Yes, I have another arab, who I help rescue, he is two now and very different, but yet so very sweet. I do agree that most people who have never been "owned" by an Arab horse, have no clue about them. It is too bad. They are missing the most wonderful human/horse relationship.

I adore my warmbloods and my TB's, but I will also always love and appreciate a good Arab horse too. Read Drinkers of the Wind by Carl Raswan if you haven't already. It is the most wonderful story of Arab horses.

Gucci Cowgirl
Jun. 22, 2006, 02:13 PM
I never said that they were through, or supple, or soft, or in a proper dressage contact. I simply said that these particular horses seemed A - more responsive to leg aid than any WB Ive ever ridden, and B - that their sensitivity made it "easier" to access their backs and hindlegs. "EASIER" not "easy"

I know they arent through in those pics. I know they have a lot of issues that need to be worked on. but if you had seen photos of them 2 months ago, you would know exactly what I was talking about.

still not saying that in any of those pics that is the case. but I know what I feel, and I feel it is easier to get that response on these ones. I have had many moments especially on the bay horse, of actual throughness. it isnt often, he cant do it for long yet, but its coming.

its not like I posted these pics saying "look how wonderful these horses are. they are in a PERFECT shape, they are 100 % through, they are ready to go GP." ha ha ha

i said "look at how versatile this breed is, and here is my opinion on how they compare with wb's as i know them so far. it isnt perfect, far from it, but these horses need to be thought of as more than just pretty faces in heavy shoes with airhead temperments"

everybody chill.

Dazednconfused
Jun. 22, 2006, 03:03 PM
They look very nice Guccicowgirl - I, too, would be interested in their names and/or pedigree - I see you're in Scottsdale so chances are I've probably seen them show in this area at some point or another. If you don't mind sharing, feel free to PM me :)

I'm all about arabs, probably always will be. Although I will probably end up getting a half arab of some sort (I prefer the purebreds though) in the future as I'm so tall and too much so for my current 2 arabians ;) I have also ridden a few warmbloods - I think they are great horses, certainly not bad by any means, just different from arabians. And that's what makes the world go 'round - there are tons of different breeds and some are better for some people and others are better for other people. By the way, my discipline of choice happens to be western pleasure, which so many gleefully bash, but I like to think, again, that I just have a different interest (western pleasure), than you (dressage), and when well done, it truly is a pleasure to watch. I like to think I fall in the category of doing it properly, I would say the majority of people at the shows I attend (class A and regional level primarily) do the same. Of course there are always people who don't, and they are more common than I would like to see.

Well, anyways, really nice horses and it looks like you're having fun and are enjoying quite a bit of success with them - have you considered showing them yourself in dressage? There's a dressage show combined with the Tucson Arab club's Class A show in January that you might think about if you are interested in showing them ;)

Samjen
Jun. 22, 2006, 03:27 PM
Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....

I agree except for one word. I would change were bred to ARE bred. Before snake necks and 16 hand arabians the arabians purpose was one of transport/survival not sole beauty (Yes Kings and Princes had them but so did other people). Granted they didn't have to collect like a Dressage for transport but my Egyptian would not do well in the "show ring today" he is meant to work..not to say he isn't pretty but he doesn't have that snake like head nor danty feet. Then again is grandsire is desertbred.He is 21 and sound. I would rather have functional than exceedingly beautiful. I think its a trend in quite a few breeds that breed a "too perfect horse" that ends up not functional for riding. Seems pointless to me. Sorry for the tangetbut it irks me that we have "ideal halter horses" that can't be ridden a mile. :confused:

Thanks for the WB clearification.

mp
Jun. 22, 2006, 05:20 PM
I agree except for one word. I would change were bred to ARE bred. Before snake necks and 16 hand arabians the arabians purpose was one of transport/survival not sole beauty (Yes Kings and Princes had them but so did other people). Granted they didn't have to collect like a Dressage for transport but my Egyptian would not do well in the "show ring today" he is meant to work..not to say he isn't pretty but he doesn't have that snake like head nor danty feet. Then again is grandsire is desertbred.He is 21 and sound. I would rather have functional than exceedingly beautiful. I think its a trend in quite a few breeds that breed a "too perfect horse" that ends up not functional for riding. Seems pointless to me. Sorry for the tangetbut it irks me that we have "ideal halter horses" that can't be ridden a mile. :confused:

I'll tell you what irks me. When an Arabian "lover" makes sweeping negative generalizations about the entire breed, implies that modern bloodlines just don't measure up, praises his/her own horse as superior to all and complains about what pukes all Arabian show horses are.

Samjen
Jun. 22, 2006, 05:40 PM
Sorry to irk you MP. I have modern American bred Arabian horses as well......Crabbet and Russians too just none that would be competitive in the "halter show" ring they are built to be ridden not be dusted off like a model horse......sorry but it is an issue of todays show world. I am not generalizing the BREED I am generalizing the TRENDS which do change on a whim at times. If you had read my reply you would notice its not the breed that is the negative it is the trend. I'm sorry I think I am entitled to an opinion without my LOVE of a breed being questioned. By the way my love is what drives my opinion after seeing amazing "halter" arabians shoved out in a field to rot because they are not competitive in the ring anymore. Now not saying people don't still produce versitle animals however I think trends should be evaluated when your producing an animal that has 20+ more years of life yet to live.

Did I say show horses were pukes: No they are beautiful......also I was specifically mentioning the "Halter horses".

Did I say they didn't measure up? WHoa I guess too perfect is not up to snuff?

Did I say my guy was the creme of the crop? NO I said he was SOUND at 20 and thats what was important to ME.

Just MY Opinion......guess I irk people thats fine.

twnkltoz
Jun. 22, 2006, 06:46 PM
Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....
Gosh, you're ignorant.

slc2
Jun. 22, 2006, 07:08 PM
so anyone who has a different opinion from you is ignorant. how interesting. how's that workin' for ya?

Dazednconfused
Jun. 22, 2006, 07:15 PM
I think you will find far more halter arabians that go onto performance careers than in any other breed - I can come up with probably at least 100 horses off the top of my head who have done just that, perhaps not in dressage, but performance nonetheless (most on at least the regional level) - CA Hermoso, Khadraj NA, Ericca, Hey Hallelujah, Emanor, Allionce, Kharben, Ganges, Shafe Psuede, LBA Lodestar, ATA Bey Starr, AM Ben Dream, Foxfire BHF, NNL Ultimate Bey, Concensus, and Michal T Mahogany......I'll stop now, but you get the point.

Dazednconfused
Jun. 22, 2006, 07:17 PM
so anyone who has a different opinion from you is ignorant. how interesting. how's that workin' for ya?
Thank you for your input Dr. Phil.

(that was sarcasm, since you rarely seem to get that, SLC)

Ghazzu
Jun. 22, 2006, 07:31 PM
And this, my friends, is part of the "problem" with Arabs.
The way the breed fanciers go for each others' throats...:lol:

Though I will say, the bit about the percentage of halter horses which go on to under saddle careers is pretty funny, considering only about 5% of Arab owners show in the AHA division any road...which makes it a pretty meaningless statistic.

And, with that, I'm gonna go ride one of my little pieces of "living art" (Allah knows I'd *love* to get my hands on the jackass who got *that* fad going...)

twnkltoz
Jun. 22, 2006, 08:32 PM
"...were bred to be "pretty", not for sport..." is not an opinion, it's a misguided statement of fact.

Sakura
Jun. 23, 2006, 08:58 AM
The Arabian is a pretty breed, it is also a hardy breed. Some folks say that Arabians are bred for the "pretty factor", but that is kind of a given with Arabians... don't you think? Some may look frail enough to lock up in a china cabinet instead of living in a stall, but they are actually quite hardy little creatures (and easy keepers! I have three that thrive on the amount of hay and grain it takes to keep my friend's horse from looking starved).

As for the majority of breeders striving to produce the swan necked, fancy-faced, toothpick legged sausage horses we see in the halter ring... well, that is just false. Those freaks of nature occur just about as often as humans of the same proportions do... think six foot tall alien super model. Now we don't see those ladies walking down the road every day... do we (if we did my self esteem would officially fly out the window)?

The average Arabian honestly (I say honestly, because some may have heard of the "Arabian hand" measuring only 3 1/2 inches) stands between 14.1 hh and 15 hh, the mega Arabs can go above and beyond (sometimes to the point they don't resemble their breed any more). Most Arabians are compact, with short strong cannons, pretty but not extreme in the head... and with out the invent of the neoprene neck sweat... their necks are fuller and IMHO much more appealing than the pencil thin fashion (although I sometimes wonder if I used the neck sweats on my thighs while working out...hmmmm).

I mean think about it... over generalizing any breed can get silly.

WBLover
Jun. 23, 2006, 09:17 AM
Sorry to disagree with you twnkltoz, that doesn't mean I am ignorant. As I said, there are exceptions to every rule, but there are very few that excel in the top levels of sport. They just aren't built well for the collection required in jumping and dressage. That's a fact, not a misguided one. That's why you don't see many Grand Prix jumping and dressage Arabs out there. Again, a few, but very few.

They are very hardy, sound, smart, and lovely horses, and have their place in many people's hearts and riding goals.

kkj
Jun. 23, 2006, 09:29 AM
Pretty is a very subjective thing. I like a horse with big floppy ears like Rocher and a head with a lot of character. That to me is beautiful. I have a miniature donkey and I think she is just gorgeous.

I don't know much about the Arab show world. My Arab contact has not been with those horses. I can say the Arabs that I have known have been very hearty horses, tough and sound more like a pony in that way. I have seen more sound and fit and rearing to go in their 20s than I have seen of other breeds.

I think slc2 knows what she is talking about when it comes to dressage. I am sure the description she gives is true of many even most arabs. However, there are plenty of warmbloods bred for dressage with weak hind ends that travel out behind too. I have seen a couple very good dressage Arabs. If I was a lot smaller and could get over that "pretty" dished head, I would consider buying one and competing it in dressage. I don't think many are bonifide FEI prospects, but I have seen some that a legitimate dressage horses none the less.

mp
Jun. 23, 2006, 09:37 AM
And this, my friends, is part of the "problem" with Arabs.
The way the breed fanciers go for each others' throats...:lol:

What I really enjoy is when the Al Khamsa/Blue List people start ragging on the Polish/Russian/etc crowd that desert-bred is the only TRULY purebred Arabian because Count What-his-face screwed everything up way back in 18-ought 6 because he didn't keep his stud books right. Now THAT's productive.


considering only about 5% of Arab owners show in the AHA division

Which is why I don't understand why people get their shorts in a knot about what wins at Arabian shows or then boohoo about the state of the breed. Guess what -- there are still plenty of excellent Arabian out there. Yes, they're still being bred to be riding horses.

I used to stay up on this stuff (I showed, too). And get sick at who was winning and what they were winning with. (Although there are some very nice champion halter horses -- I've got their offspring standing out in the pasture and they'd make any Arabian traditionalist proud.) I'd rant and rave about the same crap, too, but it's pointless All it does is make the breed look bad. Or worse, depending on your perspective.

So I stopped showing at the breed shows. I don't buy Arabian World or Arabian Times. I'm still a member of AHA but I don't read their mag either ... except to see who's been suspended this month. And I switched to open shows and am trying my hand at dressage. I still hang out at the occasional Class A show because my friends throw really good parties. I just don't watch the classes because if I've been drinking, I might shout out something inappropriate.


And, with that, I'm gonna go ride one of my little pieces of "living art" (Allah knows I'd *love* to get my hands on the jackass who got *that* fad going...)

I'm not sure who said it either. But if I find out, I'll hold him down and you can hit him.

mp
Jun. 23, 2006, 09:44 AM
Sorry to disagree with you twnkltoz, that doesn't mean I am ignorant. As I said, there are exceptions to every rule, but there are very few that excel in the top levels of sport. They just aren't built well for the collection required in jumping and dressage. That's a fact, not a misguided one. That's why you don't see many Grand Prix jumping and dressage Arabs out there. Again, a few, but very few.

They are very hardy, sound, smart, and lovely horses, and have their place in many people's hearts and riding goals.

Absolutely true. They really are all around horses. But the only discipline you'll find them consistently at the top of the game is endurance.

If I was aiming to go GP in jumping or dressage, I'd certainly go with a different breed. My goal is to have fun with my horses and do a lot of different things. Arabians are perfect for that.

Samjen
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:11 AM
I am not Al khamsa or Blue list. I also believe in speaking out about what I believe in, I am sure as I progress I will fiind out the world is just one big joke and my voice means nothing but I haven't wised up quite yet.

I too agree there are some horses bred for GP dressage/jumping and some bred for endurance, some bred to race, some bred to event. It doesn't mean they can't ever cross sports....however ideal conformation for a sport is that ideal and sometimes different sports have different ideals and some breeds fall into those ideals better than others.

cowgirljenn
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:46 AM
I am a newcomer to this board (and a wee bit scared to after reading how heated the discussions can get! :))... and I admit to not reading every post in this thread, but I wanted to say something...

I hate the 'my breed is better than your breed' discussions, too. BUT this one gave me a bit of hope. You see, I have Arabs (4 and one half-Arab). I've shown western pleasure, hunter pleasure and saddleseat. About 5 or so years ago, I had an instructor come out and help me with one of my horses, Jawhari. I had started him myself but hit some road blocks. After she helped us through the roadblocks, she said she wanted to teach us some "dressage stuff". The pushed us into moving his hips and shoulders over, turns on the forehand and haunches, and sidepasses. He learned quickly and was eager to please, and I thought this "dressage stuff" was cool.

So I started reading and learning - and quickly found out that we were only doing half-a$$ed "dressage stuff". Yeah, he would move sideways, but his head came up, his back dropped, and he was tense and not pretty.

So when we moved, I found a new instructor. An actual dressage instructor who was well thought of. I told her about our past and that I thought we really needed to go back and learn to have correct gaits and such. And she agreed and we went back to basics. And THEN I discovered that I loved dressage. We're not good at it, but we're learning. Jawhari seems to love to learn, and this gives him something new to think about. And I like it, because I'm goal driven - and there are a myriad of goals with dressage!

SOOOO... I've rambled long enough. I've enjoyed/appreciated this discussion because it is nice to see there really are people who ride dressage on Arabs, do well, and like it.. it gives me hope! ;)

mp
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:00 PM
cowgirljenn ...

Go for it and have a good time. None of my horses will go far in dressage (even if they had the talent, I do not). But I'm having fun and so are they.

Betcj
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:10 PM
cowgirljem,

As a former saddleseat, western Arab rider, welcome!! It's a great club!

I have to put in a couple comments. I have arabs, always have, but I love other breeds too. IMHO, a good horse is a good horse regardless of breed, background, pedigree or whatever. I love them all and they all have something unique and wonderful to offer.

I personally prefer Arabs of any pedigree, but I also have other breeds and crossbreds. My 'forever horse' was an Al-Khamsa mare.

An interesting comparison of the 2 geldings I have now:
Appy/TB cross: eats everything in sight (3 bags of Senior pellets and 1 bag alfalfa per week). We do everything but stand on our heads to keep weight on him....
Polish Arab gelding: gets a scant 1/2 scoop of 10% sweetfeed and 2 flakes of grass hay twice a day-and is FAT. He only gets a handful so he doesn't tear the barn down when everybody else is eating grain.... 1 only buy a bag of his grain every other week or so so it doesn't go bad...:eek: :eek:

Betsy

Elatu
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:32 PM
Yes, I have a Trakehner/Arabian who has been wonderful KF Almaz+//. Her mom is a Trakehner by Condus- my retired FEI mare, and her dad is Magic Domino AHS; the Crabbett Arabian Stallion. Check out my blog for pics.
http://elaine-ward-turcotte.blogspot.com
http://ahaec-dressage-news.blogspot.com

cowgirljenn
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:35 PM
An interesting comparison of the 2 geldings I have now:
Appy/TB cross: eats everything in sight (3 bags of Senior pellets and 1 bag alfalfa per week). We do everything but stand on our heads to keep weight on him....
Polish Arab gelding: gets a scant 1/2 scoop of 10% sweetfeed and 2 flakes of grass hay twice a day-and is FAT. He only gets a handful so he doesn't tear the barn down when everybody else is eating grain.... 1 only buy a bag of his grain every other week or so so it doesn't go bad...:eek: :eek:
Betsy

Well, I have the four Arabs and one half Arab, and I think EACH of them are different. The Egyptian Arab lives on air. He only gets grain (a tiny bit) so he won't feel left out. My *Bask-bred stallion is having a huge time keeping weight on - I am going to have to take him in and have blood drawn as I'm starting to worry something may be wrong there. The other polish-bred horse I have also takes a good bit of food...

To go back to dressage - I'm not going to be getting anywhere for a while. I've had to give up lessons since I lost a job, we moved back to Texas, and we bought our own place. What I do make from writing (that's what I am - a freelancer) is going into improvements to the place. When things turn around, I'll get back into lessons. Until then, I'll just ride and do what I can and enjoy my horse-kids!

WBLover
Jun. 23, 2006, 12:55 PM
Wow, Elaine, I just gotta say "gawd" that palomino is "gawdgeous"! Phew, takes your breath away....

twnkltoz
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:16 PM
Sorry to disagree with you twnkltoz, that doesn't mean I am ignorant. As I said, there are exceptions to every rule, but there are very few that excel in the top levels of sport. They just aren't built well for the collection required in jumping and dressage. That's a fact, not a misguided one. That's why you don't see many Grand Prix jumping and dressage Arabs out there. Again, a few, but very few.

They are very hardy, sound, smart, and lovely horses, and have their place in many people's hearts and riding goals.
Saying that arabs are bred to be pretty and not for sport is an ignorant and offensive statement. You are offensive to the hundreds of people who specifically breed arab sporthorses. You are offensive to the all of the horses who compete at arab sporthorse national championships. Are they exceptions? Is endurance not a sport...can a horse bred just to be pretty go 100 miles in one day? Just because arabs are rarely competitive in grand prix jumping or dressage doesn't mean that they aren't sporthorses. Lots and lots of people never get to grand prix jumping and dressage, on any breed. Lots and lots of people enjoy their arabs in jumping and dressage. I scribed at the arabian region 3 sporthorse regionals dressage ring a couple weeks ago. The judge is one who trains and shows in dressage on warmbloods. However, she enjoys judging arab shows because she likes to watch them, and there was one at least that she really wanted to take home. We only went up to I1, and there was only one there but several at PSG. None of them were marked down for not belonging there or for not achieving the level of collection that's required at that level.

No, arabs have not taken over the "all breed" (or whatever you want to call it) dressage and jumping worlds. Yes, they have some issues that make it *harder* for them to learn some of the things they need to. BUT, they are smart, and often they can learn how to use themselves correctly if given good training. Often the complaints that are made about how arabs are shown are really about how they're trained...and that's not the horse's fault. Will they be the "new warmblood"? No, probably not. But we don't need to be quite so disparaging about them.

WBLover
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:26 PM
Well then I'm just "offensive", I guess....oh well I'll go crawl into my hole and never speak again.

slc2
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:36 PM
then a whole lot of people would be offensive to you twinkle toes, frankly, i think you're running with the wrong pack of blood hounds.

actually, it is a huge problem and one even many staunch and very long term as well as new fans of the breed discuss. there are people who absolutely adore the breed and still lament many of the trends going on.

mp
Jun. 23, 2006, 02:56 PM
Well then I'm just "offensive", I guess....oh well I'll go crawl into my hole and never speak again.

Take Samjen with you, please. :lol:

I wasn't offended by your remarks. The big eyes, jibbah, pretty neck, etc are breed characteristics that some people will use to determine matings and, unfortunately, overlook other faults -- club feet and tabletop croups, to name two. But even famous breeders have been known to use bloodlines to inject more type in their programs. Bazy Tankersely, who is known for breeding athletic horses and bred several mares approved for the Trak book, confessed that she used Dreamazon mainly to "pretty" up her horses. And she was pleasantly surprised when Dreamazon offspring turned out to be so athletic as well.

slc, the trends are nothing new. People have been pissing and moaning about them for 20+ years. Instead of complaining about it, I bred some nice horses and now I'm riding them.

Betcj
Jun. 23, 2006, 03:02 PM
I am new to these boards, but I am very much enjoying them. That is I was until I see people get their drawers in a wad during what was supposed to be intelligent and friendly discussion for the differences and similarities of 2 types of horses.

Why does someone have to blast into another poster just for having a difference of opinion? I realize that horses are our passion and we all have opinions, but without respecting other's opinions, we might as well be reading our own posts!

I'm discouraged.

slc2
Jun. 23, 2006, 03:09 PM
it's nature in the raw, it's post and perimenopausal symptoms out of control, it's people crying out for more vicodin and beer earlier in the day, LOL. nothing to get discouraged about.

WBLover
Jun. 23, 2006, 03:09 PM
Well, actually, if you think about it, to say that they were bred to be "pretty" was a compliment! I think they are beautiful horses, and when I was a girl my dream horse was a grey Arabian, long flowing mane and tail and all. When I first got into dressage as an adult, however, my dreams were smashed when I was told I really should set my sights on a warmblood if I had high ambitions.

Turns out I did have high ambitions, but didn't realize just how HARD it would be to get where I wanted to. Got the talented warmblood, but couldn't put together the time and resources to get me there. Since then I've set my ambitions a bit lower, but that's besides the point. I love horses of all breeds for gosh sakes, for their own merits. I've just always thought you should get the very best tool for the job.

bovon
Jun. 23, 2006, 03:12 PM
yep, what should've turned out to be a good discussion has turned into yet another trainwreck. Enough of this stuff and soon noone will be reading or posting on this board and than there will be what?,,a handful of people bitching at each other!!

Betcj
Jun. 23, 2006, 03:34 PM
Ok, maybe I should not be discouraged.:)

<<t's break open a virtual brewskie here, kick back and COMMUNICATE!!>>

Shall we start over? There is a wealth of information, help and encouragement on this board--we need to create a positive learning situation to best utilize it. At the risk of sounding too "Mary Ann", let's try and learn from each other and benefit from different points of view. That benefit can be just learning that there is someone else out there that feels differently :yes:

Here's a for instance: I think some Arabs (like some Lucitano types) have a very compact coupling that predisposes them to being easier to collect than horse with longer, more 'racing' types. I worry that my gelding won't be flashy at extensions, but boy I know he can he collect!! So, educate me as to what the diference is that allows those mind blowing extensions??

I personally have not ridden or owned a WB, but I would never turn down a nice horse if it was offered....:winkgrin:

twnkltoz
Jun. 23, 2006, 09:19 PM
then a whole lot of people would be offensive to you twinkle toes, frankly, i think you're running with the wrong pack of blood hounds.

actually, it is a huge problem and one even many staunch and very long term as well as new fans of the breed discuss. there are people who absolutely adore the breed and still lament many of the trends going on.
While people have said things that I don't necessarily agree with or like, most of the time I can pretty well let it go (and have). However, wblover's comment made it sound like arabs are a bunch of useless barbie dolls...that was just a bit too much for me to take. I've been on this board for a few months now, and I'm rarely offended, even by people who don't like arabs.

I don't know that I necessarily agree with everything you've stated either, slc2, but you didn't just drop blanket disparaging remarks about the breed. You gave some reasons why arabs have a harder time in this sport. I don't know enough about conformation to know if what you said is true or not.

WBLover
Jun. 24, 2006, 12:18 AM
I do believe I also gave reasons why Arabs find it hard to collect, but you couldn't get past my statement about them being bred to be pretty, that you apparently ignored it:



High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....

I do know a little something about conformation and the mechanics of movement that makes for a good dressage and/or jumping horse. I've owned 4 horses and ridden countless others of all breeds, and read many educational books about horses since I was 6 years old. I'm now 38 and I'd like to think I've learned something over the last 30+ years. So my statement was not based on ignorance, it was based on some education I've received both in experience and passed on to me from great teachers-both equine and human!!

Samjen
Jun. 24, 2006, 01:25 AM
Awe thanks for the hole in the ground suggestion! :D However that would slightly interfere with my freedom to be wrong or opinionated, or passionate or all of the above.....Anyway I guess I will get my education elsewhere on this thread. It was nice to met you sorry that I am so limited in mind :D .

Since Dazedandconfused listed a counter I plan on checking out those names.......maybe I landed in the wrong region or have not been enlighten to the ones in my area.

twnkltoz
Jun. 24, 2006, 02:48 AM
I do believe I also gave reasons why Arabs find it hard to collect, but you couldn't get past my statement about them being bred to be pretty, that you apparently ignored it:



I do know a little something about conformation and the mechanics of movement that makes for a good dressage and/or jumping horse. I've owned 4 horses and ridden countless others of all breeds, and read many educational books about horses since I was 6 years old. I'm now 38 and I'd like to think I've learned something over the last 30+ years. So my statement was not based on ignorance, it was based on some education I've received both in experience and passed on to me from great teachers-both equine and human!!
Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
Function: adjective
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>

If you think the majority of arabs were not bred for some kind of sport, you are lacking in knowledge of the arabian industry.

High, short croups are not desirable traits, and I'm sure you're correct in that this can cause problems. Hind legs out behind is a training/riding issue. Yes, they can curl their necks and avoid contact...but if you know what you're doing you can train that too. Tight in the back? Yep, hot horses often have that problem. Guess what? You can train them to relax and swing. Arabs also have traits that can make them good dressage horses, even if not at the highest levels, and I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about.

Lafeyarabian
Jun. 25, 2006, 01:36 PM
I have arabs, warmbloods, and warmbloods that are half arab, so I have been following this thread with interest. Yes, Alysheba, warmbloods can be 1/2 arab. My 2 registered oldenburg colts are both 1/2 arab. Neither are old enough to be under saddle yet, so I'm waiting very impatiently to see if I end up with the best of both worlds or if they favor 1 or the other more.

I like both arabs and wb's, but if I had to choose between the two I would choose the arab (Luckily for me though I don't). My first reason is pretty straight forward at 5'3" anything over 16H is too big for me. The second reason, I haven't decided whether it is a training issue or a breed issue. My arabs seem lighter and much more responsive/sensitive than my wb's. The last reason is I enjoy the challenge. (I realize that many arab people are looking at this last sentence and saying "huh"?)

While I prefer arabs I do try to be honest about them. There are many challenges involed in their training. Somebody said in an earlier post that only 5% of all arabs actually show at arab shows. Regardless of the percent, those horses especially the stallions, hugely impact arab breeding. It's only been in the last5-10 years that a large portion of arab breeding has moved away from breeding for English Pleasure and turned toward sport. (No, I'm not rambling.) This is a training challenge because many arabs have been selectively bred for years to have a gate/conformation that is not ideal for competitive dressage. This brings us to the next challenge- the basics. Arabs generally are very upright. They are also very intelligent and curious. Contrary, to what my wb trainers tell me should happen, when they are relaxed they do NOT lower their heads, stretch their necks, round their backs, and work through. It took me YEARS to realize this because the standard response to this statement is if it isn't happening then the horse isn't relaxed. Their natural relaxed state is with their heads 3/4 of the way in the air seeing the sights. This is a challenge because you have to be thick skinned enough to ignore what the BNT are saying and find a way to teach them to do what many wb's do more easily. Once they learn this I think their training is relatively easy because they are so smart and responsive.

I will also agree with some of the swan neck comments. They are very hard to ride. I have one mare that I love to death, but she has a very long neck. When she was younger I sometimes felt like I was riding a slinky. I have made a conscious breeding decision to not breed to swan necks. The one comment under conformation that I don't mind seeing when I show SHIH at arab shows is "neck could be a little longer."

mp
Jun. 25, 2006, 03:54 PM
Arabs generally are very upright. They are also very intelligent and curious. Contrary, to what my wb trainers tell me should happen, when they are relaxed they do NOT lower their heads, stretch their necks, round their backs, and work through. It took me YEARS to realize this because the standard response to this statement is if it isn't happening then the horse isn't relaxed. Their natural relaxed state is with their heads 3/4 of the way in the air seeing the sights.

Could you elaborate on this? I've got Arabians and they do drop their heads when they relax. I don't know of any horse that doesn't.


maybe I landed in the wrong region or have not been enlighten to the ones in my area.

Region 9 and 11 are usually pretty strong. Or, of course, if you can make it to Nationals. I haven't been since 2001, but there are usually at least a few horses that are worth looking at. Wherever you go, don't just look at the horses as they're shown, doing "the pose" (ugh). Go back to the stalls and ask if you can see them standing naturally. Or make an appointment to see the ones you like at their home stables. I've got four offspring by sires that all won or placed at the national level. They're all good representatives of the breed, as is their dam.

Kyzteke
Jun. 25, 2006, 05:08 PM
Absolutely true. They really are all around horses. But the only discipline you'll find them consistently at the top of the game is endurance.


I have to disagree with this. First I have to say I have several different breeds/crosses, etc. in my pasture, which is an equal opportunity money pit. I have a WB who is as sensitive as any Arab (is that a good thing?), and one who has been in a coma almost since birth. Then another who argues every point with you -- endlessly! Both of my PB Arabs are mares, and both are intelligent, people oriented and would give me the shirt off their backs if I asked -- and if either actually had shirts....

But, honestly, my favorite is technically an Arab/WB cross, but because of her sire's bloodlines, she is actually 50% Polish Arab, 6.?% Shagya Arabian, 18.?%TB and 25.?% Dutch WB. If she was 3 inches taller and buckskin she would be my PERFECT horse!

While the odds might be against an Arab going to Grand Prix jumping and/or dressage -- guess what? The odds are against a WB doing that too! I can think of 2-3 WBs easily who struggle with 2nd Level. And yes, it may be the rider's fault, but can't Arabs plead that excuse as well?

I mean, I'm guessing that if your FORCED Stephan Peters to ride a sound, well-conformed Arab, it would make it to the upper levels. In 90% of the cases, it isn't the horse who is the problem; it's the rider/trainer. Arabs are VERY smart, VERY sensitive and don't tolerate alot of crap. This "total submissive" stuff doesn't sit well with them.

But if we are talking "limited" in terms of performance, I would have to say WBs are FAR more limited than Arabs.

Can you ride in the mountains all day chasing cows w/ a WB? Do team penning? Ride a reining pattern? Western pleasure? Saddle Seat? Endurance? Race? Pack an elk (ok, I think a WB could do that, if you went slow...)?

Honestly, I love most breeds, but I have to say the intelligence, lightness, sensitivity and un-paralled desire to "bond" with their human that many Arabs display really impress me. They can do just about anything you want to teach them, if you teach them right.

They are usually good doer's, sound, hardy and live along time.

Now...if they just weren't so dang short....

Kyzteke
Jun. 25, 2006, 05:14 PM
Truly -- I love the crosses most of all if they turn out right.

This year I'm breeding my 16.3hh Diamont daughter to this stallion:
http://www.flyingarancharabians.com/beau.html and I can hardly wait!!

Ghazzu
Jun. 25, 2006, 05:22 PM
They can do just about anything you want to teach them, if you teach them right.

They are usually good doer's, sound, hardy and live along time.



Yes, but...with the exception of endurance, though they can go out and *do* all those other things to the satisfaction of their owners, they aren't at the top of the discipline--how many champion cutters and reiners in open competition are Arabs?
How many open jumpers? How many advanced 3-day horses?

Don't get me wrong; I'm a fan of their versatility. However, the specialists tend to be on the top of the heap competition-wise, so if your goal is to win, you buy the breed/type that wins at your choice of competition.
If your goal is to enjoy riding your Arab while competing in your chosen discipline, that's another matter entirely.

twnkltoz
Jun. 25, 2006, 07:01 PM
It would be fun to have a wb-arab cross. I saw some pretty awesome wb's at the CDI show I went to recently! The one I really liked was a Selle Francais...then my friend told me what that is!

goeslikestink
Jun. 25, 2006, 07:47 PM
twxltoz they are already arabs x warmbloods about

selle franciase have arab lines in them so do holstens and belguims

and most do have tb lines in them to -- as they introduce diferent brreds to improve the line -- if you dont beleive me look on the kwpn and bwp and harrise.com have all the top 100 stallions from all over- netherland british ffrench belguim america --

so it not about what breed is better than the other if it was they wouldnt use arabs or tb or belgiums what ever to improve lines

and in most breds go back to the original barb -- an arab or tb

DQWARAB
Jun. 25, 2006, 09:51 PM
I've had arabians all my life and just love the breed. My last three have all been polish bred. My current gelding has been my most successful one. I've shown him in both arabian shows and USDF which he has scored in the high 60's and 70's. He has won both Arabian and USDF/USEF awards/championships. I purchased him as a 2 year old and have done most of the work myself with weekly lessons.
What is most important to me is an all around horse. My horse is such fun because I can jump, trail ride or do dressage. He does all of them well. He has a very much a "tent" personality. He is one really cool horse.
The biggest issue with his training is keeping him challenged in his work because he learns everything so quickly.
I don't worry about what level my horse will take me. I pretty happy with what we've done so far ...the future is bright.

friesiandriver
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:12 AM
Ok I could be wrong here but I believe that the trakehner registry won't allow warmbloods or any other breeds in other than trak, arab or tb. I know they must be approved, but if you approve you arab mare trak and then breed her trak, the foal will be called a trakehner. If I am correct, there could be plenty of trakehners out there that are really half arab , and last time I checked trak is a warmblood breed that does well in high level dressage. I know hano will except approved arab mares.
Before getting into friesians we bred arabs and ours did well in halter(national level halter wins) as well as national level performance wins, this whole halter horses cant do anything else usually comes from people with those arabs that don't even resemble the breed standard. While I wouldn't pic one if my only goal was to excell at high level dressage, I still think that some are more suited to it then many other breeds. I don't know, some breeds are just suited more to dressage than others, but there are always exceptions to the rule. MOST arabs don't have the movement to get the high scores, even if their gaits are correct. This is just the way it is, and anyone who disagrees either has an exception to the rule or is barn blind. We were third gen. arab breeders, I've been to MANY arab shows and I know what the average arab moves like. They are just usually lacking in that department. I love them of course, for many reasons but they were'nt bred to be dressage horses and they still aren't unlike many of the breeds that excel in sport.

Kyzteke
Jun. 26, 2006, 02:38 AM
Yes, but...with the exception of endurance, though they can go out and *do* all those other things to the satisfaction of their owners, they aren't at the top of the discipline--how many champion cutters and reiners in open competition are Arabs?
How many open jumpers? How many advanced 3-day horses?

Once again, I don't know what level rider you are, but speaking for myself, I'm no GP gal -- so I'm not any more likely to win at the upper levels on a WB as I am on an Arab. Riding a WB doesn't insure that someone will reach the top level of dressage or jumping. Just like riding an Arab doesn't insure you of winning the Tevis.

Yes, when one is looking at the absolute creme de la creme of any equine sport there is a strong tendency for those riders to select from specific breeds -- the reiner from VERY narrow QH lines, the dressage rider from WBs, endurance from Arabs, etc.

But keep in mind two things: #1) Those riders go through dozens of horses of that breed before they find one talented enough to go to the top -- they don't just pick a WB because it's a WB and expect it to all work out, and #2) Very few of us do or will ride to that level, so the breed thing really works out more as a matter of preference than actual "breed ability."

Ghazzu
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:41 AM
Very few of us do or will ride to that level, so the breed thing really works out more as a matter of preference than actual "breed ability."

Which is precisely what I said.

alysheba
Jun. 26, 2006, 09:49 AM
I agree except for one word. I would change were bred to ARE bred. Before snake necks and 16 hand arabians the arabians purpose was one of transport/survival not sole beauty (Yes Kings and Princes had them but so did other people). Granted they didn't have to collect like a Dressage for transport but my Egyptian would not do well in the "show ring today" he is meant to work..not to say he isn't pretty but he doesn't have that snake like head nor danty feet. Then again is grandsire is desertbred.He is 21 and sound. I would rather have functional than exceedingly beautiful. I think its a trend in quite a few breeds that breed a "too perfect horse" that ends up not functional for riding. Seems pointless to me. Sorry for the tangetbut it irks me that we have "ideal halter horses" that can't be ridden a mile. :confused:

Thanks for the WB clearification.

I agree. Most of the Arabs that are bred for sport don't have the extreem type of the show ring bred Arabs...Example, one of my favorite Arab breeders..mybonarabians.com in North Dakota. They breed some GOOD sporthorses!

Kyzteke
Jun. 26, 2006, 10:26 AM
Which is precisely what I said.

Not exactly.

Let's turn this around.

How many WBs are at the top level of endurance or reining? How many Poco Lena QHs are at the top level of eventing? How many ASBs are Grand Prix showjumpers?

So you can hardly bust the Arab for not being competitive at the highest level. Very, very few breeds can claim this when out of "their" discipline. But I'm thinking that a good, athletic Arab would come closer to being able to accomplish this than most other breeds. I do know afew Arabs who have been extemely competitive in upper level jumping (the most well known is Russian Roulette), reined cowhorse and dressage (up to Grand Prix).

And I can't think of one WB who has won the Tevis, although to be fair I can think of one who did finish it...twice, as I recall. It was a Swedish WB, I think....

The point is, I think Arabs as a breed are the most versatile, and are perfectly capable of going as far as their (most of) their owners can go in just about every discipline out there.

Again, it's not by accident that virtually every modern riding horse out there has used Arab blood as a foundation, and many continue to use it today.

WBLover
Jun. 26, 2006, 10:49 AM
Main Entry: ig·no·rant
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&-)r&nt
Function: adjective
1 a : destitute of knowledge or education <an ignorant society>; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified <parents ignorant of modern mathematics> b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence <ignorant errors>

I certainly don't need a definition of what ignorant means, obviously I know what it means because I stated later that my opinion was based on KNOWLEDGE and EXPERIENCE!


If you think the majority of arabs were not bred for some kind of sport, you are lacking in knowledge of the arabian industry.

I don't believe I ever said Arabs weren't bred for "some kind of sport", I said that they weren't bred for the top levels of "sport", which usually refers to jumping, eventing, and dressage. Not to say that endurance is not a sport, but in most circles "sport" refers to and "sport horses" compete in jumping, dressage, and eventing. Don't put words in my mouth.


High, short croups are not desirable traits, and I'm sure you're correct in that this can cause problems. Hind legs out behind is a training/riding issue. Yes, they can curl their necks and avoid contact...but if you know what you're doing you can train that too. Tight in the back? Yep, hot horses often have that problem. Guess what? You can train them to relax and swing. Arabs also have traits that can make them good dressage horses, even if not at the highest levels, and I think that's what this thread was supposed to be about.

Hind legs traveling out behind is not always a training/riding issue, and more often it is a result of how a horse is conformed and therefore moves. A high, short croup most definitely contributes to hind legs moving out behind. Ask the conformation experts out there. There's only so much you can do within the limits of a horse's conformation. You can ask the legs to come under more through training, but they can only come under as much as their conformation will allow.

slc2
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:01 AM
Oh God. I am SO SICK of hearing about 'my breed is smarter than your breed'. There is NOTHING - absolutely nothing - that indicates that any one breed is smarter, more loyal, easier to train than another.

You love your horse. OK. We all know that. I love my horse too. And I SERIOUSLY doubt that your horse breed is smarter than mine, or vice versa. OK. So someone told you when you bought the horse, 'Arabs are smarter than warmbloods' and you believed it. Well glorious. Here's a Nobel Prize. In fact, there is NOTHING that indicates than any one breed is smarter than another.

"You can crank and spank on a WB but if you try that crap on an Arab, you are likely to have a war on your hands. They just don't generally tolerate spurring and whipping and cranking on the bit like a WB might"

Surely you gest. I see far more of that done to Arabs than any warmblood. It's called 'The Arab Breed Ring', and I was at an Arab breeder/competitor's barn for quite some time, and frankly, those horses tolerated far more whipping, spurring and kicking than any horses I'd ever watched in my LIFE. Regardless of the style of riding - Western, Hunt Seat or the saddle-seaty type thing they do, these horses got yanked on, whipped, spurred and cranked on more than any warmbloods I've ever seen in my LIFE. They are used to it, frankly, because it is done to them CONSTANTLY. I've seen riders go around with their Arab in a huge Western curb bit yank, yank, yank, yank on their mouth so hard it made my arms hurt, at EVERY Stride, and no, the horses don't make a 'war', in fact they do nothing at all. They just go around and gape their mouth open at every stride. The same thing occurs in every type of style the horses are ridden in and all they do is just go around and around, horse after horse after horse.

Like a warmblood might. LOL. Sure, a beginner's kid horse of 20, one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, might. Like the WB mare I tried last week DIDN'T. Like no warmblood I have ever ridden, would.

Show me ONE grand prix international grand prix horse that tolerates that sort of stuff. This is just a part of the 'traditional' stuff that passes for facts on this bulletin board, but not in the real world...or even on other bulletin boards.

In fact, if ANY arab had the conformation, movement, suppleness and athleticism to 'make it', 99 times out of 100, someone would have the horse at the international levels. Talented horses do not sit around undiscovered and neglected. People find them. If you think an undiscovered genius is being wasted, have the animal evaluated by an expert. You may not generally find that it really is an undiscovered International Grand Prix Dressage talent mouldering away in some corner.

THe 'freakishly talented' Arabs you see, others may not see them the same way - actually the choice to not use the horses you see as 'freakishly talented' for upper levels has NOTHING TO DO with them being 'SENSITIVE', the top riders LOVE 'sensitive' and the hotter the better.

You had posted pictures of a horse you felt was more talented than any horse you had ever seen, and no one...not one person...felt the same way about that particular picture, not ONE person here agreed with you that the animal was showing 'world class gaits'. Alot of the problem is your eye for movement, which is not accurate, and which leads you to distorted conclusions that are distorted even more by your breed prejudices. Unfortunately, the epithet you usually hurl at people, 'You don't know what you're talking about', is more true in your case than for any of the people you accuse of that.

You can continue to believe that you are right and everyone else is blind and/or prejudice, or you can try to learn better. Good luck and best wishes.

slc

twnkltoz
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:14 AM
Actually, your exact words were, 'They were bred to be "pretty, not for sport...' nothing about high level dressage and jumping. If that's what you meant, that's not how it came across. On that I can agree--most arabs were not bred with high level dressage or jumping in mind.

Does this horse look like she has a hard time getting her hind legs under her? She's 5, has been doing dressage for about 3 months (about as long as I have), and is still quite green. She definitely has the high short croup...I know we have plenty of other issues in these pictures so please don't bother critiquing. However, I don't see her trailing her legs out behind and she never has. I don't see her as an exception at all.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/twnkltoz/One%20Hot%20Lady/042806%201st%20A%20show/molly042906002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/twnkltoz/One%20Hot%20Lady/042806%201st%20A%20show/molly042906001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/twnkltoz/One%20Hot%20Lady/032606%201st%20dressage%20show/Molly032606pec2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/twnkltoz/One%20Hot%20Lady/051906%20DAHA%20show/diablo06696.jpg

Kyzteke
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:15 AM
You gave me one of the biggest "AH-HA!" lightbulb moments I've ever had! :eek:

Well, you'll get my bill <lol>

I just remembered another example of Arab versitility -- an Arab from my polo days who was VERY competitive at the low goal (2- 4) level.

He was a reject from Merv Griffin's halter breeding program and his name was Cavelier. He was small -- about 15hh+, as I recall. And he was ridden by a 170+lb man who consistantly played him in double chukkers through most games. Once he even played him three chukkers in a game -- a truly amazing feat.

Once a month or so Cav would let himself out of his stall at night and wander the grounds of the LAEC, visiting. When I would exercise the string, I would often ride Cav while ponying two others. We would do our laps around the track they had there. There was a blue barrel used for trash right behind the bleachers next to the track and Cav used to "spook" at it about every 4th lap.
It'd be like "first lap -- I'm ok", second lap -- I'm ok," "Third lap -- I'm ok,""Fourth Lap = WTF is THAT?!?!?! ARGHHHH!! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!"

It was SO Arab, although I didn't realize that till later....(he was the first Arab I'd ever seen...).

Cav was tough as nails, quick & smart as a whip. Most of the time he'd be steady as a rock, but sometimes, just for no other reason than sheer Arab-ness, he would step to the left just as his rider swung at the ball, causing said rider to miss the swing.

Ah...it was a joy....you could hear the guy swearing two states away....

twnkltoz
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:16 AM
ps...One of my favorite arab stallions, OKW Entrique, got a 69.7 on his I-1 test at regionals this weekend from Charles deKunffy, and Sonya Vackro gave him a 70.5 with a 10 on one of his extended trots!! WOW!!!

twnkltoz
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:23 AM
slc2, I have to agree with you...I hate the whole "my breed is better than your breed" discussion, no matter what side anyone's on. The breeds are different, and people like them for different reasons. The whole point of this thread was supposed to be something like, "huh, arabs aren't as bad as I thought." But, as is the way with all discussion boards, it turned into something else entirely.

I just think it's sad that many people will not even give arabs the chance...lots and lots will refuse to even look at one as a prospect, so how would they know if the horse has talent? There are a few competing at fei right now, although some of them stay within the arab world, others do venture out to all-breed comps. I hope people continue to breed and train for high-quality dressage horses so that some day we'll be more of a force 'out there'!

Kyzteke
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:25 AM
There is NOTHING - absolutely nothing - that indicates that any one breed is smarter, more loyal, easier to train than another.
slc

Of course there is...experience. If you deal with lots of different breeds, for many years, you will see definite traits in each breed.

Ask vets, ask farriers, ask horse trainers....love 'em or hate 'em, almost all of these guys agree (a good) Arab is extremely intelligent.

Kyzteke
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:31 AM
"You can crank and spank on a WB but if you try that crap on an Arab, you are likely to have a war on your hands. They just don't generally tolerate spurring and whipping and cranking on the bit like a WB might"

Surely you gest. I see far more of that done to Arabs than any warmblood. It's called 'The Arab Breed Ring', and I was at an Arab breeder/competitor's barn for quite some time, and frankly, those horses tolerated far more whipping, spurring and kicking than any horses I'd ever watched in my LIFE. Regardless of the style of riding - Western, Hunt Seat or the saddle-seaty type thing they do, these horses got yanked on, whipped, spurred and cranked on more than any warmbloods I've ever seen in my LIFE. They are used to it, frankly, because it is done to them CONSTANTLY. I've seen riders go around with their Arab in a huge Western curb bit yank, yank, yank, yank on their mouth so hard it made my arms hurt, at EVERY Stride, and no, the horses don't make a 'war', in fact they do nothing at all. They just go around and gape their mouth open at every stride. The same thing occurs in every type of style the horses are ridden in and all they do is just go around and around, horse after horse after horse.

Show me ONE grand prix international grand prix horse that tolerates that sort of stuff.


Hmmm...Salinero? Bonfire?

And, while you may not have realized it, it doesn't sound like you were at a very good barn if these guys yanks EVERY horse for EVERY discipline....

mp
Jun. 26, 2006, 11:42 AM
A high, short croup most definitely contributes to hind legs moving out behind. Ask the conformation experts out there.

I'm no confo expert, but this is the challenge I have with my mare. She tends to get strung out -- front legs in one county and hind in the next. I finally got her rounding up nicely, but it was a lot of work for us both. In her case, it was partly do with her conformation -- she has a higher croup than any of my other horses. But it also had to do with muscle development and mindset -- it had been OK for her to travel that way under saddle for 6 years.

I have the opposite problem with my gelding who is more balanced -- he wants to curl up and move like a sewing machine. Getting him to stretch out and down is the challenge. Nothing like getting the best of both worlds.

Kyzteke ... 15h+ is fairly big for an Arab, unless you're taking "arab" hands which are approx. 3-1/2 - 3-3/4"

I'm tired of the "my horse is smarter than yours" debate, too. I think Arabians tend to very people-oriented horses, more so than other breeds I've been around. But that doesn't necessarily make them more intelligent than others. Of course, all MY Arabs are way above average in the smarts department. :yes:

Edited to add ...

Good news about Entrigue, twink. Don't worry so much about what people think of our breed. It used to bug the hell out of me when people would compliment me on my horses, saying that they're "good" Arabs and the exception to the rule. Now I just say "thanks," and go out and ride. I call it education by example.

WBLover
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:08 PM
Gee tnkltoz, it's funny you suddenly think your mare has no trouble getting under herself, yet you were complaining about the very same thing on another thread—what a hypocrite!

http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=47189

You don’t even feel that she tracks up, and many told you in the thread that it’s related to the conformation of the Arab. That's true, and that was my point! The training can only do so much and a horse is going to be limited by its conformation. They have less vertebrae in their backs than all other breeds on top of it all.

I'm not going to critique your mare, first of all because you are so blind you would argue anything I said to the end, and second because I'm trying to be nice, even though you have felt the need to bash me right and left in any attempt I have made to explain myself. It's obviously futile, but at least some other open-minded posters have seen my point.

Ghazzu
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:09 PM
Not exactly.

Let's turn this around.

How many WBs are at the top level of endurance or reining? How many Poco Lena QHs are at the top level of eventing? How many ASBs are Grand Prix showjumpers?

So you can hardly bust the Arab for not being competitive at the highest level. Very, very few breeds can claim this when out of "their" discipline. But I'm thinking that a good, athletic Arab would come closer to being able to accomplish this than most other breeds. I do know afew Arabs who have been extemely competitive in upper level jumping (the most well known is Russian Roulette), reined cowhorse and dressage (up to Grand Prix).

And I can't think of one WB who has won the Tevis, although to be fair I can think of one who did finish it...twice, as I recall. It was a Swedish WB, I think....

The point is, I think Arabs as a breed are the most versatile, and are perfectly capable of going as far as their (most of) their owners can go in just about every discipline out there.

Again, it's not by accident that virtually every modern riding horse out there has used Arab blood as a foundation, and many continue to use it today.


I'm *not* "blaming them".
I'm pointing out that horses purpose bred and selected for a given discipline are more likely to be the ones found at the top of the standings.
I never said *any* breed was the best at everything, and that Arabs were somehow inferior in that respect. In fact, I think they're arguably one of the better generalists out there, if you stay away from the folks who are breeding for either halter or trot.

I would no more expect an Oldeburg to be a World Champion cutting horse than I would expect a foundation bred QH to win Rolex. That goes for Arabs and any other breed. No one breed is the best at everything. (with the possible exception of the Majickal Gypsy Vanner :D)

Horses for courses, as they say.

twnkltoz
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:09 PM
I love the "she can't be an arab. she's too calm!" remarks. I just smile and try not to roll my eyes.

twnkltoz
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:13 PM
Gee tnkltoz, it's funny you suddenly think your mare has no trouble getting under herself, yet you were complaining about the very same thing on another thread—what a hypocrite!

http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=47189

You don’t even feel that she tracks up, and many told you in the thread that it’s related to the conformation of the Arab. That's true, and that was my point! The training can only do so much and a horse is going to be limited by its conformation. They have less vertebrae in their backs than all other breeds on top of it all.

I'm not going to critique your mare, first of all because you are so blind you would argue anything I said to the end, and second because I'm trying to be nice, even though you have felt the need to bash me right and left in any attempt I have made to explain myself. It's obviously futile, but at least some other open-minded posters have seen my point.
Um, no, I said she wasn't reaching into her front tracks. As someone on that thread pointed out, she was reaching under herself well and that it didn't matter that she's not hitting the front tracks. In fact, that person said she should do better when we get to 2nd level or so because the judges will recognize that she's striding well despite that...and it's the way they're using themselves that's important. In addition, once I got my new saddle which fits better, she's moving more freely and she's now tracking up right onto her front tracks.

Kyzteke
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:17 PM
Talented horses do not sit around undiscovered and neglected. People find them. If you think an undiscovered genius is being wasted, have the animal evaluated by an expert. You may not generally find that it really is an undiscovered International Grand Prix Dressage talent mouldering away in some corner.

Of course they do! Do you really think top GP riders (or any rider who is at the top of ANY sport) goes around to every pasture in America looking for prospects? Geeze...they'd have no time to ride. Some bo-hunk moron may have the next dressage Einstein sitting in their backyard, but if said bo-hunk moron has never even HEARD of dressage, how do you think he's going to know the horse has talent?

The pros get their prospects from afew chosen contacts. They aren't out combing auctions, and unrecognized shows looking for them. And since most of these horses aren't actually owned by the riders themselves, the person who puts the money down gets a big say in which horse is purchased.

These top riders ride to win -- whatever their sport -- and to fly in the face of convention by your breed choice lessens your chance of winning. We all know that. It's just a fact of life.

I remember a top reining rider saying that, not only will he not even look at a prospect who is not a QH, he doesn't even consider QHs who aren't from specific reining bloodlines. He admitted that there are probably very talented reining prospects out there who AREN'T from these lines, but basically he said, "I'd have to spend alot of training time with each one just to see if it had the talent, and honestly I don't want to waste my time doing that." So he goes with what has worked for him in the past.

EVERY horse of EVERY breed presents it's own unique training challenge -- none of them of ANY breed come pre-packaged and ready to win.

twnkltoz
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:24 PM
And like I said, I know my horse and I have plenty of problems. But, she reaches under herself pretty darn well considering the conformational problams and the small amount of training we've had to overcome them.

And the "one less vertabra" thing is a myth. The number of vertebrae varies by horse, not by breed.

Kyzteke
Jun. 26, 2006, 12:28 PM
In fact, I think they're arguably one of the better generalists out there, if you stay away from the folks who are breeding for either halter or trot.
(with the possible exception of the Majickal Gypsy Vanner :D)


...EXactly! My point -- your point -- OUR point!

Now, about this Majickal GV --- I know that the GV is a "made up" breed, made up by someone far more intelligent than me who saw a market for spotted draft horses and who was obviously married to a copyright lawyer...

BUT -- the Majickal part...I fear I've missed a great joke and I could use a laugh, now that it seems the WTD thread is winding down.

Care to elaborate?

Samjen
Jun. 26, 2006, 01:25 PM
Thanks MP I will keep that in mind when I get out that way. I prob judge to quickly from my areas show ring and I am sorry for that.

Now that I think of it Arabians do have their surprises.......I nearly forgot the dropped mouth when I bought my 2nd anglo. His sire was on site (arabian) and his mum the TB was off at the trainers. Well I saw my sweetie and thought "whoa BIG BONED" I assumed it was from his mum........well you know where assuming gets you. His sire has huge dense bones.......and is amazing. He does endurance but produces quite a few sport horses. My farrier at first look told me he didn't look like an anglo (he looked like a wb) but if I flip open a breed book that has the french anglo in it he looks like the ideal french anglo.

My first horse was an anglo and if I had a dollar for everytime someone asked me why would I want such a mix I would be rich. Yet these are the horses the US military used in battle.....

Now the thing about reining/cutting some....ole cowboys are seeing the advantages of having abit of Arabian in their stock........so there maybe some difference in the ring there. Not to say they are all going to switch and I remember reading an article that said they like them to be 1/4 arabian to keep the cow in them but all the same some like them.I understand some people are going to look for a certian type (and like you said no need to look elsewhere) though some guys are getting excited about these crosses and maybe they will be seeked out atleast by some people. I think its kind of cool though bridging those two breeds.......helps people learn about them who might never have looked twice.

mp
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:02 PM
though some guys are getting excited about these crosses and maybe they will be seeked out atleast by some people. I think its kind of cool though bridging those two breeds.......

Some of that excitement also could be due to the fat wad of cash Tom Redmond put up to start a half-Arab Reining Futurity at Scottsdale. Nothing like winning $$$$ to get the cowboys interested. ;)

Dazednconfused
Jun. 26, 2006, 03:24 PM
Some of that excitement also could be due to the fat wad of cash Tom Redmond put up to start a half-Arab Reining Futurity at Scottsdale. Nothing like winning $$$$ to get the cowboys interested. ;)
'fat wad of cash' - now that's an understatement, lol! :winkgrin: Actually he's also put up another $50k I think for a PB futurity, which is really great for our breed.

The less vertebrae thing is, indeed a myth. I have a good friend who is currently researching this topic and perhaps someday will be able to share this research for you - many arabians have one less vertebrae, many have the same as any other breed.

Also completely agree the Arabian is not "better". They are just different. Some people like warmbloods, some people like Saddlebreds, and still others like Quarter Horses. I firmly believe there are horses for anyone out there and it's just a matter of which one you get to first or connect with first. There are fantastically talented Arabians, and some really crappy ones too. And the same goes for any breed. To say that any one breed is incapable of something is usually not accurate. There will be individuals who are, and probably more who are not. The fact that warmbloods have been selectively bred for sport for quite a bit longer now, makes sense that they would generally be better at dressage or jumpers than the Arabian. While the Arabian does have a closed-studbook, there will be some individuals who are on par with (or close to) the level of capability of warmbloods, and again, selectively bred over generations there will be some who are capable (such as OKW Entrigue for example) that will be able to compete easily and well.

Arabian people must not delude themselves into believing that we have the best horse for everything - because it is simply not true. There are horses who trot bigger, pull far more, piaff better, slide farther, and jump higher - in the most general sense. But the Arabian does have many fine attributes that can overcome our lack of specialization (save endurance/CTR). It's all in what you want and are used to. Some people do not like the sensitivity the majority of the breed offers, some (like myself) are used to it and it's just what I prefer. Some people want to go to the Olympics, some people are perfectly happy to participate in our breed shows, some fall somewhere in the middle. If your aspiration is to get to the Olympics in Dressage, then no, the Arabian is -not- for you. If you has something a little less lofty in mind, then an Arabian -may- be just the ticket. I should mention, however, that Robert Dover's FBW Kennedy, a Badem-Wurttemburg gelding, is actually a partbred Arab. Again, individuals, not the breed! ;)

Meanwhile I can't wait to start riding my mare again and be around my Arabian-oriented friends and have a good time doing it! :) And hope the rest of you do as well with whatever your chosen breed is ;)

friesiandriver
Jun. 26, 2006, 05:05 PM
"Surely you gest. I see far more of that done to Arabs than any warmblood. It's called 'The Arab Breed Ring', and I was at an Arab breeder/competitor's barn for quite some time, and frankly, those horses tolerated far more whipping, spurring and kicking than any horses I'd ever watched in my LIFE. Regardless of the style of riding - Western, Hunt Seat or the saddle-seaty type thing they do, these horses got yanked on, whipped, spurred and cranked on more than any warmbloods I've ever seen in my LIFE. They are used to it, frankly, because it is done to them CONSTANTLY. I've seen riders go around with their Arab in a huge Western curb bit yank, yank, yank, yank on their mouth so hard it made my arms hurt, at EVERY Stride, and no, the horses don't make a 'war', in fact they do nothing at all. They just go around and gape their mouth open at every stride. The same thing occurs in every type of style the horses are ridden in and all they do is just go around and around, horse after horse after horse."

NO KIDDING!!
The way arab show horses are treated and trained for the most part is borderline abusive. We always kept ours at home and hauled in for lessons. I have competed in and witnessed MANY arab shows from scottsdale to nationals and the lower regional and class a levels as well. The people that don't "crank and spank" their arabs are a very very small majority. It's just the way things are done in the breed circuit. It's truly amazing the horses put up with it. Sure it happens in dressage but not NEARLY as often and it certianly isn't the norm. I haven't done the arab thing for about 6 years and now when I go and watch the odd show, It's even more obvious than it was before, probably because I just don't see that kind of thing often in dressage(yes I know it happens, but not enough for it to be even close to the norm).

Dazednconfused
Jun. 26, 2006, 05:20 PM
"Surely you gest. I see far more of that done to Arabs than any warmblood. It's called 'The Arab Breed Ring', and I was at an Arab breeder/competitor's barn for quite some time, and frankly, those horses tolerated far more whipping, spurring and kicking than any horses I'd ever watched in my LIFE. Regardless of the style of riding - Western, Hunt Seat or the saddle-seaty type thing they do, these horses got yanked on, whipped, spurred and cranked on more than any warmbloods I've ever seen in my LIFE. They are used to it, frankly, because it is done to them CONSTANTLY. I've seen riders go around with their Arab in a huge Western curb bit yank, yank, yank, yank on their mouth so hard it made my arms hurt, at EVERY Stride, and no, the horses don't make a 'war', in fact they do nothing at all. They just go around and gape their mouth open at every stride. The same thing occurs in every type of style the horses are ridden in and all they do is just go around and around, horse after horse after horse."

NO KIDDING!!
The way arab show horses are treated and trained for the most part is borderline abusive. We always kept ours at home and hauled in for lessons. I have competed in and witnessed MANY arab shows from scottsdale to nationals and the lower regional and class a levels as well. The people that don't "crank and spank" their arabs are a very very small majority. It's just the way things are done in the breed circuit. It's truly amazing the horses put up with it. Sure it happens in dressage but not NEARLY as often and it certianly isn't the norm. I haven't done the arab thing for about 6 years and now when I go and watch the odd show, It's even more obvious than it was before, probably because I just don't see that kind of thing often in dressage(yes I know it happens, but not enough for it to be even close to the norm).
I completely disagree with this, and so would my trainer :( I find it very sad that you feel you can state that this is the "majority" when you don't even have the breed. I attend a number of class A shows, Nationals every other year (or, I did, up until next year) Scottsdale, and usually one regional. I have seen this 'crank and spank' thing only a few times and in 7 or 8 years of attending shows that is what I would consider quite the MINORITY, not majority. In any breed or discipline there will be people who abuse or cross the line with their horses, it does not make it the norm or standard for everyone. I resent being told that I am abusive (or "borderline abusive", to quote you) just because you saw some people doing it. I know the negative always stands out, and things that are different from what you are used to also stand out, but really...

I went to a Class A show back in January. One of my good friends, who is a die-hard quarter horse person converted to dressage came to the show with me. I asked her straight-out if she had seen anything abusive or wrong in watching the show (she spent part of her time watching the warmup and part watching the actual classes) and she could not honestly find anything to complain about. Please do not paint all of us with the same brush - it's a gross generalization that does not fit the vast majority of sane, responsible, non-abusive owners/riders/breeders.

Ghazzu
Jun. 26, 2006, 06:17 PM
The less vertebrae thing is, indeed a myth. I have a good friend who is currently researching this topic and perhaps someday will be able to share this research for you - many arabians have one less vertebrae, many have the same as any other breed.


It's been known to be a myth for lo these many years.
Lady Wentworth even wrote about the inaccuracy.

Dazednconfused
Jun. 26, 2006, 06:20 PM
It's been known to be a myth for lo these many years.
Lady Wentworth even wrote about the inaccuracy.
Yes - and Lady Wentworth is one of her many sources, I believe ;)

Samjen
Jun. 26, 2006, 06:32 PM
:eek: 50K ummmmmm now where is my western saddle.....kidding......

Dazednconfused
Jun. 26, 2006, 06:37 PM
And that's just the amount Wolf Springs committed this year - it doesn't include any other contributions or late fees or entry fees that are put back into the pot, if I'm not mistaken (so it's really probably more like $60k+)

friesiandriver
Jun. 27, 2006, 12:27 AM
I completely disagree with this, and so would my trainer I find it very sad that you feel you can state that this is the "majority" when you don't even have the breed. I attend a number of class A shows, Nationals every other year (or, I did, up until next year) Scottsdale, and usually one regional. I have seen this 'crank and spank' thing only a few times and in 7 or 8 years of attending shows that is what I would consider quite the MINORITY, not majority. In any breed or discipline there will be people who abuse or cross the line with their horses, it does not make it the norm or standard for everyone. I resent being told that I am abusive (or "borderline abusive", to quote you) just because you saw some people doing it. I know the negative always stands out, and things that are different from what you are used to also stand out, but really...

I went to a Class A show back in January. One of my good friends, who is a die-hard quarter horse person converted to dressage came to the show with me. I asked her straight-out if she had seen anything abusive or wrong in watching the show (she spent part of her time watching the warmup and part watching the actual classes) and she could not honestly find anything to complain about. Please do not paint all of us with the same brush - it's a gross generalization that does not fit the vast majority of sane, responsible, non-abusive owners/riders/breeders.


I realize you aren't all doing it, there are tonnes of great people in that industry!. I don't know if you missed what I said but we were third gen. arabian breeders up till about 6 years ago when we got out of it. We still have our varian bred desperado v mare(who is being bred to a dutch stallion) and her foal so I do own horses of this breed. As a junior I won at the national level with my hunter pleasure horses, as well as some western horses and a national trail champion. I CAN make the statement because I HAVE seen enough of it. It isn't in the classes that the shi* takes place for the most part, it's what takes place in the warmup and the trainers barns. There is alot of incorrect training taking place (you know...yank the head in to the chest and jab with spurs for the whole western pleasure training session) and the way arabs for the most part are kept is RIDICULOUS. Every single arab barn I have EVER visited minus about 3 all kept their horses in stalls 24/7 other than the riding time spent indoors included the barn where I took lessons. God forbid the horses get a mosquito bite. I think all breed circuits are fairly bad for this kind of thing, and maybe it has gotten better over the last 6 years but when we were in it gingering and all that crap was still very common if you were with a barn that did alot of winning.

Dazednconfused
Jun. 27, 2006, 01:29 AM
Not in my barn or any of the other national-level barns that I have visited. This was 6 years ago, a lot can change in more than half a decade...

twnkltoz
Jun. 27, 2006, 03:33 AM
I've been to several class A arab shows this year where I was seeing plenty of stuff in the warmup that makes me wonder what the big deal is about rollkur!

DQWARAB
Jun. 27, 2006, 10:34 AM
[QUOTE=friesiandriver][B]. Every single arab barn I have EVER visited minus about 3 all kept their horses in stalls 24/7 other than the riding time spent indoors included the barn where I took lessons.

Need I remind you that a whole lot dressage folks do the same.

Ghazzu
Jun. 27, 2006, 10:46 AM
[b]. Every single arab barn I have EVER visited minus about 3 all kept their horses in stalls 24/7 other than the riding time spent indoors included the barn where I took lessons.
.

You must have pretty limited visiting time then, because most of the Arab folk I know turn their horses out.

mp
Jun. 27, 2006, 12:13 PM
[QUOTE=friesiandriver][B]. Every single arab barn I have EVER visited minus about 3 all kept their horses in stalls 24/7 other than the riding time spent indoors included the barn where I took lessons.

Need I remind you that a whole lot dressage folks do the same.

True.

I know of some barns that try very hard to keep their show horses' lives as normal as possible. Others don't. I doubt that has changed much in the last few years. And the Arabian breed folks are no worse than other breeds.

Friesiandriver, IME the most zealous saints are usually reformed sinners. ;)

friesiandriver
Jun. 27, 2006, 05:06 PM
Friesiandriver, IME the most zealous saints are usually reformed sinners.
NEVER have I kept my horses in conditions like I was describing, think whatever you want.
Secondly, as I said, maybe things have changed but like I said I spent 10 years showing competatively in the circuit and I was very involved and did well. I think I am fairly qualified to have an opinion on this. I saw alot of practices that I would consider poor horsemanship and many that I would consider abusive. I haven't been involved in any other area of training other than dressage so I don't know if it's common in other disciplines or what but it is one of the main reasons we got out of it. I had lots of fun while I was doing it and met lots of great people that truly loved their horses but it became so redundant and fairly unchallenging and that coupled with the rampant disregard for the welfare of the horses was just too much. I know you all feel defensive but really, I know you don't all disregard your horses welfare, I just found it was much more common in that industry than in the one I am in now. My original piont is that more cranking and spanking goes on in that circuit BY FAR than in dressage and I think it's incredible that many of those arabs didn't lose it more often.

mp
Jun. 27, 2006, 05:42 PM
I'm not being defensive, fd. I was just ribbing you. Hence, the ;)

Now wipe the saliva off your computer screen.

nightmoves
Jun. 27, 2006, 08:50 PM
it's nature in the raw, it's post and perimenopausal symptoms out of control, it's people crying out for more vicodin and beer earlier in the day, LOL. nothing to get discouraged about.
I have to agree!

friesiandriver
Jun. 27, 2006, 09:01 PM
Now wipe the saliva off your computer screen
K well obviously I sound a little excited but really it isn't an issue that bothers me I just felt like mentioning my opinion and why I have the opinion I do. Thats all.

dressagediosa
Jun. 27, 2006, 09:11 PM
I have nothing to say about this topic, but just wanted to note that the OP is VERY lucky to get to ride in a beautiful arena with mountains in the background every day!

kkj
Jun. 28, 2006, 06:17 PM
In support of FriesianDriver, I used to work at a barn that housed a very successful Arab operation with champions and what not. I did not work with or for this trainer but they shared the facility. The horses were never turned out. They were not ridden much either. The trainer said they liked to have them fresh and animated at the shows and not beaten down with daily work. When they were ridden, to me it looked a little scary to be quite honest.

I have a very good friend who fell into the Arab and National Show horse world for many years. I never went to any shows with her but visited her stable a couple times. Yes I saw very bad riding, crank and spank, terrible basics. Honestly, her riding did not progress in the years she did that discipline (if I can call it that) it got worse. Now that she has left that world, she will tell you she can't believe she was a part of it.

There are terrible riders, trainers, handlers in all breeds and all disciplines. There must be some Arab people- trainers and riders doing it better out there. I just have not seen them. Those of you who have only seen the good, trust me the bad is alive and thriving.

slc2
Jun. 28, 2006, 07:00 PM
Yes, I used to think there were thousands of undiscovered grand prix prospects sitting in people's back yards. In fact, I argued with people with far more time in the business than I that there were just TONS of them all over the place, just BEGGING to be discovered by some poor penniless slob like myself and go galloping off to the olympics.

Then I woke up.

This is the kind of stuff people WANT to believe. It's part of that whole myth of dressage thing. Go on ahead and believe it if it makes you happy. One day you'll wake up. Those horses are not just waiting out there. Not much.

At the same time, I believe quite strongly that there are plenty of nice horses out there that people can have a lot of fun with, and be very successful with, if they work hard and learn to ride well. And yes, we have had people who have bought 200 dollar horses who have won at the grand prix level at local shows, and won breed awards and won club awards. But no. None of these horses have beaten the top elite horses of the day in top Olympic competition. Not recently. It used to be more possible for the rare freaks like Keen and a hand ful of others back in the day...the selection and development of competition horses has come a long way in 30-35 yrs.

slc

twnkltoz
Jun. 29, 2006, 11:37 AM
I think you make a good point there, slc. Although, my friend got a tb/appy cross out of the neighbor's pasture for cheap...can't even be registered because the guy can't remember which mom he came out of! But, this horse is an awesome mover...you wouldn't believe it. He's been accused of being a spotted warmblood. :) They're at training right now, but it'll be interesting to see how far she can take him!

Trakehners2000
Jun. 29, 2006, 01:36 PM
My lusitano might be small, short and fat but he can still kick all of your WBs, Arabians, TBs, DraftX etc. etc. 's butts.

He likes to look angelic and inocent when he first meets another horse and then wham! He turns into mean "super-sol" ready to kill. He'd take on any of ya'lls whimpy horses. hee hee hee

Check it out. He's ready for action:
http://www.geocities.com/orgleoso/evil.html

Uh, umm, I am pretty sure my Arab-Trakehner could take 'em!!!!!!!!!

http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/6102621/161667729.jpg

Ghazzu
Jun. 29, 2006, 02:43 PM
Yes, I used to think there were thousands of undiscovered grand prix prospects sitting in people's back yards. In fact, I argued with people with far more time in the business than I that there were just TONS of them all over the place, just BEGGING to be discovered by some poor penniless slob like myself and go galloping off to the olympics.

Then I woke up.

This is the kind of stuff people WANT to believe. It's part of that whole myth of dressage thing. Go on ahead and believe it if it makes you happy. One day you'll wake up. Those horses are not just waiting out there. Not much.


This sort of thing isn't limited to the dressage world--ever since Cash and Rio, there have been endurance wannabees who refuse to pay more than a pittance for a horse, since clearly, there are enormous numbers of enduro superstars out there, you just need to stumbel on them...

ancientoaks
Jun. 29, 2006, 03:15 PM
Am just jumping in here, and am new to the 'dressage' forum...

I think it's wonderful that the attitude towards the arabian and it's contribution has changed so...and so many more 'open' competitors are able to 'own up' to their horse's heritage ( I mean, how MANY TB/Welsh cross ponies are REALLY out there at 12.2h??????) and so many more judges and others are willing to look at this wonderful animal with equality and fairness..

My husband has been a professional horseman for over 50 years (OMG!!) starting on his dad's ranch in Co, then riding hunts, playing professional polo, then on to professional h/j, with an in between stint managing an arabian breeding barn in the early 60's..has ridden and trained alot of 'stuff'...for difficult sport activities..also did some round ring (arabian show ring) on and off until about 6 years ago..
Arabs are his horse of choice, TRAINABILITY and that amazing ability to be better than their conformation sometimes suggests...may be 'heart', eh?
They will almost to a fault succeed at something better than another breed will FAULTS BEING EQUAL..somehow they manage to compensate....can't figure out how, but they do..
We currently cross our arabs on WB's...for the crowd who wants 'bigger'...and/or a different 'label' as both the purebreds and the crosses are eligible for inspection at almost ALL the warmblood registries (so far the Dutch are the only ones who have refused us)

And the funny thing is, all the currently popular warmblood breeds have , from a little, TO A LOT , of arabian blood in their pedigrees..All you have to do is look. Some are up close (Weltmeyer, Oskar, etc), Ironman, an Oldenburg stallion of some renown we bred to last year and had a gorgeous, tough looking colt has a ton of it, and his owner tracked it for us!!
most Trakehners have some really close, some not so close, but ALL have some...but it's there...The Europeans have known for a long long time, what we, in America, are just now starting to realize and admit..That the arab is not called the 'improvement breed' for nothing...You don't see people putting QH into a warmblood to 'improve' it..(Please, am not bashing QH's either, just stating a fact..)

And, really, it's a numbers game for arabians. They have not been presented in the past at competitions in great numbers, so therefore their individual success is directly related to how many have competed..Top hunters are TB's and now, warmbloods..why? because 99% of the horses out there belong to this group..if only, say, 25 of these competitors are considered 'top quality' that sure leaves alot of TB's and warmbloods NOT at that level...

I suspect if someone were to go out and grab up 100 arabians, 100 TB's and 100 WB's from backyards across america (or at all the best known breeding barns)...you would have just about the same mix of great, good, and not so good (assuming the TRAINING was identical) from each group...The difference would be in the mindsets, the trainability, and the versatility.

And 15h is NOT that unusual for an arabian..Because of long use of AI, we now are seeing more of the larger horses (that were always there, but perhaps regionalized because of distance) ..And that's fine for those who need size...We even know of one bloodline that habiltually produces well over that , sometimes to a true 16h...And by the way, a horseman is a horseman, and measures a hand correctly...there are MANY breed lovers who 'mismeasure', it's certainly not just an 'arabian' thing...

I think the sport horse arena has brought out so many more nice arabians, as the 'standard' , classic arabian athletic body type (not that gooserumped, or super flat crouped halter type) is ideal for this venue. And, the 'correct' conformation for sport is actually more prevelent in the breed than that 'show ring' type...
I think they are just not, as a breed, as prevalent, so one tends to remember the 'bad ones' far easier than one remembers a 'bad' TB or warmblood...Arabs 'stand out'! good OR bad...

Our horses are muscular, solid, long hipped, long crouped, deep sloped shoulders, good necksets, good movers, good minds....and I have seen many many so built espeically recently that there is now an arena where they are appreciated...
But many breeds have such 'divisions' in type, and it's too bad..IMO...

And we choose our horses for conformaton and minds...don't pay much attention to polish, crabbet, domestic, altho there are bloodlines we love, more often mixed...the only one we tend to shy from is the 'modern' Egyptian, as many cannot move..IMO


I agree that the arab show ring needs improvement, but also have to say that many show rings do...it's sad what we do to our animals just to please ourselves...

sorry for the rant..but am passionate about these horses and what they can do alone, or combined with other breeds...

Deb
Ancient Oaks Farm
www.ancientoakssporthorse.com
lots of examples of what they can do...

Flameborne
Jun. 30, 2006, 02:16 AM
<<And to make this dressage-related ... The pictures of dressage riders using rollkur remind me of how Arabian WP horses are warmed up. Lovely. Simply lovely.>>

Oh my gosh that was my thought too and I was too afraid I'd end up in a bash session for saying it.

I grew up with Arabs and shifted to WBs later in life -- clinging to a few Arabs that live on the farm and so forth. Frankly I left the Arab Circuit because of some of the things being discussed here and a personal disagreement with where the breed was going. (Since when is a PB Arab 16h and could pass for a twin as a TB?) That coupled with all the trendiness in that circuit is annoying.

I have noticed some very marked changes over the years, prior to leaving Arab Circuit shows. As just mentioned its a very trendy world and those trends tend to leave "outsiders" with false impressions of the breed. For instance, my absoulte favorite horse was the desired type, size, and bloodline for hunt seat and native costume for years. Out of the blue seemingly overnight he's too small to compete, he's not "fancy" enough, he doesn't have high knee action and he lacks the chisled features. And not wanting to part with my partner we shifted disciplines and he LOVES dressage. I look at a lot of the huntseat horses in Class A shows and leave thinking that they couldn't withstand even part of an actual hunt course without breaking down in some fashion.

The current new trend is the Arab Sport Horse. (And I subscribe to this one -- count me in!) But it's a whole new world for Arabs in relative terms. I tend to believe (perhaps even wrongly) that it is brought on by people, like myself, who suddenly found their very successful old-style Arabs unable to compete against the "versatile halter winner / english pleasure doing everything" trend. I mean honestly there's an entire generation out there raised to believe Arabs were "this" and suddenly they are "that" -- what happens with the "this"? Demand creates a market.

I do find them generally more sound than a lot of other breeds. I have learned also that Arabs don't forget -- both the bad and the good. I also feel that Arabs, in general, have a burning desire to please their owners whereas many other breeds aren't truely driven to do so but happen to do so. That arguement can be made on both sides of the fence, unfortunately.

Out of many, many, mounts under my belt, I will say with confidence an Arab is the most versitile breed *I* have ever worked with. They adapt and learn quickly, willingly, and can cross over many disciplines. Unfortunately, I don't think at this time (until the breeding trend swings full throttle into using proven lines and athletes) that we'll see many GP Arabs. Right now many won't make it past the lower levels. That will change in time.

At the same time Arabs have this unique approach to life. The description of the blue barrel spook on the 4th time is classic. The dropped shoulder spook to the side is just one of those things Arab-owners "get". But spend a lot of time with an Arab and one can almost predict ahead of time what is going to get their goat and what is not. (Mine is afraid of building shadows - gah!).

I'll keep my WBs and continue to breed them. I'll also keep my sporty Arabs and reproduce them as I am able. No matter how I try I can't seem to get away from the Arabs and I doubt I ever will.

Fifty-to-one; Half-A-Dozen to another. :)

Flameborne
Jun. 30, 2006, 02:22 AM
Cowgirljenn,

Just curious who your stallion is? I'm very proud to own a Fire Wind stallion but would love to look at a stallion with *Bask a little closer than that. I've got a mare that I'm thinking long-term with.

Dazednconfused
Jun. 30, 2006, 04:31 AM
A flat croup (regardless of what anyone may try to tell you) is in no way indicative of a 'halter horse' OR a horse that is not athletic. The angle of the pelvis is far more important. Now, in the quest for that flat croup (without looking beneath that elusive trait) the hip angles may be ignored or you may even get an uptilted pelvis - which has resulted in the association of flat croups with generally bad hips. They are not, however, directly correlated. Also, the "relatively horizontal croup" IS part of the breed standard - and anyone in the breed can breed what they like. But on the other hand, there is a reason we have a standard, and if you don't plan to follow it at least sort of, kind of, then maybe you ought to try another breed. I mean, I'm sure most people would laugh at the suggestion of breeding out an active hindleg in a warmblood, breeding the cow out of a working western-oriented Quarterhorse, or breeding German Shepards to be retrievers instead of herders. So why breed some of the breed's hallmarks out, particularly when it's of no consequence anyways (unless coupled with other bad traits, which is a whole other issue, to me).

ancientoaks
Jun. 30, 2006, 08:47 AM
A flat croup (regardless of what anyone may try to tell you) is in no way indicative of a 'halter horse' OR a horse that is not athletic. The angle of the pelvis is far more important. Now, in the quest for that flat croup (without looking beneath that elusive trait) the hip angles may be ignored or you may even get an uptilted pelvis - which has resulted in the association of flat croups with generally bad hips. They are not, however, directly correlated. Also, the "relatively horizontal croup" IS part of the breed standard - and anyone in the breed can breed what they like. But on the other hand, there is a reason we have a standard, and if you don't plan to follow it at least sort of, kind of, then maybe you ought to try another breed. I mean, I'm sure most people would laugh at the suggestion of breeding out an active hindleg in a warmblood, breeding the cow out of a working western-oriented Quarterhorse, or breeding German Shepards to be retrievers instead of herders. So why breed some of the breed's hallmarks out, particularly when it's of no consequence anyways (unless coupled with other bad traits, which is a whole other issue, to me).


exactly...an argument my husband and I have heard and disputed for years...flat croups do NOT go hand in hand with poor hip angle, altho are OFTEN together because of the poor breeding decisions made by some..

We have a mare who has a flat croup (not gooserumped) and an enormously long hip, PLUS a near ideal hip angle. Not common , but certainly out there..
Most of our others have a more slightly sloped croup..
AND have seen, in other breeds, a slight to steep croup that appears to go with a 'good' hip angle, is often too short to be correct...
still keep searching for the 'ideal'...guess that is what breeding is all about..

I guess that is why WE feel that a 'halter ' horse (or breeding class which is more correct) SHOULD exemplify the standards of the breed, which in TURN make is capable of being a 'sport horse'...there should be no differential...IMO

MyReality
Jun. 30, 2006, 11:07 AM
I have posted in other breed debates before, a lot of it is really buyers are looking for a certain 'type' for a certain sports. Personally I like the more classical type with deep girth... other people favours more 'modern type'. You could argue individual attributes of individual horses to death... but the fact is certain breed represent a certain type, which is really why you breed in the first place.

That's why people argue, should Arab becomes more sports horse because it contradicts the type the original breed is intended for.

Then secondly, if there IS prejudice and people should thank some of their fellow breeders in promoting Arabs that hop around like deers complete with a 'deer in the headlight' look on their faces. They are freaks of non-nature, but people thought they are work of art. Really you would have a hard time convincing me they are suitable for dressage (or any sports) when I see horses that display each step with such intensity. Unfortunately, I see WB breeding going that way too, which is a very sad.

Thanks goodness I also personally know friends who breed Arabs and ride them... perfect riding horses with a calm brave attitude and fluid forward gaits. If I haven't known them, I would share the prejudice as others. One of the best horses that I've ever known, and I still have his picture up on the board as I typ, is an Anglo Arab. He was game for everything as long as someone was on him... never quits.

Ghazzu
Jun. 30, 2006, 07:25 PM
That's why people argue, should Arab becomes more sports horse because it contradicts the type the original breed is intended for.
.

Not at all.
The animals were originally bred to be war horses, not "living art", not trotting fools.

The type is that of the early imports and their descendents--small, solidly built, and sturdy as hell.
Not long legged herring gutted swan necked parodies of the original type.

Weebonilass
Jun. 30, 2006, 10:00 PM
Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.



Hmmmmmmmmm, I'm thinking that Bedouins weren't exactly sold on just pretty when they were facing a maurading band of raiders. But nope in the fight for life, collection wasn't at the top of the line of necessary qualities

ancientoaks
Jul. 1, 2006, 02:08 PM
Quote by WBlover "Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job."

Just curious, can you (or anyone else) explain this statement?
Up until fairly recently in arabian history, breeding arabians to be 'pretty' was not the first criteria.There are ALOT of them out there that are not 'pretty' as arabians go...and anyway, one CAN have pretty and functional...there are some darn pretty warmbloods out there (Rosenthal, Ironman, etc etc)...

And the US Calvery Remount wasn't interested in pretty...the Europeans have been infusing arabian blood into warmblood registries for a long long time.
The thoroughbred was bred for sport, and they started out with arabs..

I think the current atmosphere (started in the early 80's) of arabians being non functional, just pretty, and not 'capable' of sport due to their 'conformation' (??) is a sad, but a real misconception that arose fromthe halter ring, that will take YEARS to erase...if ever...

anyway, hope someone can explain the above statement about the conformation problems of arabs(as it pertains to their breed standard, not to some of the terribly unput together ones that are out there along with the terribly unput together 'other breeds'), am not an accomplished dressage person so am trying to learn all the time. AM an accomplished sport horse breeder (arabs, TBs, crosses) and husband is a 50 year veteran of professional equine sports (NOT dressage OR just arabians ) so would love a detailed explanation ...thanks!

slc2
Jul. 1, 2006, 03:31 PM
would you love a detailed explanation that didn't agree with your opinion? don't want to spend a lot of time typing if not.

stuge
Jul. 1, 2006, 03:33 PM
Quote by WBlover "Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job."

I think the current atmosphere (started in the early 80's) of arabians being non functional, just pretty, and not 'capable' of sport due to their 'conformation' (??) is a sad, but a real misconception that arose fromthe halter ring, that will take YEARS to erase...if ever...

anyway, hope someone can explain the above statement about the conformation problems of arabs(as it pertains to their breed standard, not to some of the terribly unput together ones that are out there along with the terribly unput together 'other breeds'),

I think you answered your own question! Twenty years is long enough to do some "damage" to a breed. And before everyone gets their panties in a wad I am not one of those that thinks Arabs are damaged. I just think some incredibly irresponsible and excessive overbreeding was done with Arabs in the 80s? that created an abudence of less than quality arabs. I also think the same thing happened and still does with Quarter Horses. While I can't state this as fact, it does seem that the most common backyard breeders tend to either have arabs or quarter horses.

I know that there are some incredible talented and athletic arabs and quarter horses out there that would probably kick the pants off of most warmbloods. I believe that the most limiting factor in many nondressage type breeds is the rider/owner that they get and the trainer that is picked.

I also think it is just plain silly to get into breed bashing. Let's face it, a vast majority of all dressage horses don't make it past fourth level. A good arab would no doubtedly be very competetive against a good warmblood up through those levels and then even beyond. But, if an international level FEI trainer was looking for a young horse then they more than likely are going to be looking at the warmblood breeds best suited for dressage. They probably wouldn't be looking at too many holsteiners either (aren't they the warmblood breed that excells at jumping?)>