My barefoot horse was diagnosed with navicular [Archive]

EqTrainer

Jun. 18, 2006, 07:53 AM

First, let me say I am sorry and understand your confusion and sadness.

I think I would try to force myself to take a little time/breather before I did anything. I understand how in these situations, we always want to DO SOMETHING. I've been there, got that shirt <LOL>

I can tell you this, low heels in themselves are not a bad thing. However, she could have heels that are too low relative to her toe position, or heels that are too low relative to her frog position, and the list goes on and on. Any of those things could/would make her display heel soreness, or navicular syndrome. This is also a good time for you to start educating yourself so you can make informed choices.. a good place to start is go to Amazon books and do a search on Pete Ramey and Jaime Jackson. I would recommend buying all the books that come up under their names on Natural Hoofcare. Start by reading the Pete Ramey book, it's the most mentally accessible IMO. Then I would go to his website and read about heel position, low heels, navicular, etc.

Then at that point, I would sit down w/my trimmer and review her feet. It may be that in the end, you do end up changing her trim, or putting hoof boots on her for a while, or even shoeing her. But I can *for sure* tell you this - eggbars and Isoxuprine are are very outdated remedy for navicular syndrome and/or heel pain. So I doubt after you do the research, that you will opt for that, as it is a bandaid.

Last, I would like to tell you that personally, I have a horse that defies my barefoot efforts. I have toyed with putting his shoes back on; but after doing even more research I now understand why he is sore and understand what I have to do about it. It's VERY HARD to see these situations, when we are already doing everything right, as an opportunity to learn something new and essential. Very hard. So please understand that you are not alone. I am finally realizing that the upside to my horse being difficult is that I never get to be complacent; which means I never stop learning. Sometimes I'd like to take a mental snoozer <LOL> but apparently that is not meant to be. It might not be meant to be for you, either. Take it for what it's worth and good luck :)

Tree

Jun. 18, 2006, 08:53 AM

I would {still} like to know what kind of references you can provide that bar material can and does get impacted. I asked you this once before when you suggested it for someone else and you never really answered the question. I am not trying to be hateful, just genuinely curious! From what I've read so far, no one can prove that it is possible for bar material to get impacted up into the hoof capsule.

I think either you or someone else wanted scientific data about impacted bar. I only have field proof and some empty hoof capsules showing bar material backed up them. No one can prove this? Well I guess it depends on the "who" we're talking about. I just think it is widely misunderstood when most people can only tell you that bar is needed for "support" but have less to say about how much "support" should be needed. How much is too much? I have found few people able to address this question.

If you'll email me, I'll be HAPPY to send you pics showing impacted bar.

ovrdunit @ aol.com (remove spaces for working addy)

Tree

Petalstorm

Jun. 18, 2006, 09:20 AM

My mares bars were folded over a bit the trim before last. My trimmer used his knife and removed some of it. Is it possible that is why she is lame? What do you make of the x-rays?

Tree

Jun. 18, 2006, 09:26 AM

Without seeing the feet, I couldn't say. Do you have xrays?

Tree

shawneeAcres

Jun. 18, 2006, 09:53 AM

LEsions on the navicular do not a navicular horse make! However, there are many many possibilites for a horse like this. I agree, when possibile barefoot is good, but it make not be in this case. I'd address the low heels though first but certanly wouldn't kjump into bar shoes. Did he do blocks to determine exact area of pain? Personally my first course of action would be to bute her for 7 - 10 days, take her off bute for one week and see what happens, does she tretunr to same level of unsoundness or not. Then I'd try a simple shoe, extend the heel for heel suport, set the shoe back some, square and shorten her toes and roe the toe of the shoe and see how that does. You may see significant improvement with just this simple change. I have almost NEVER seen a horse improve wth eggbars. If the above shoeing doesn't work then I progress to an aluminum wedge ( 2 - 3 degree) shoe with again a shortened toe.

Petalstorm

Jun. 18, 2006, 11:14 AM

The x-rays are with my vet. I'd like to get them from him. How could I post them?

luvmytbs

Jun. 18, 2006, 11:20 AM

I have had x-rays transferred to disc. You could then post them.

cartera45

Jun. 18, 2006, 11:24 AM

I would also hate to see you go from barefoot to eggbars - seems as though they bring with them other problems and mess up frog and sole support. It also may be that the toes are still too long so I wouldn't rule out a different trim. Did the vet mean that there was not enough heel in his opinion or was the heel underrun? I agree with Shawnee - if you want to try shoes, look into a regular shoe but ease the breakover.

shakeytails

Jun. 18, 2006, 02:00 PM

I looked into Natural hoof care and found a practitioner with a great reputation in my area. He is certified by the American Association of Natural Hoof Care Providers.

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't think that all horses can go barefoot, and I really don't think certification means anything; the best farriers I know aren't certified. I have yet to come across a really good farrier that is a product of any farrier school. School may help, but without years of apprenticeship with a top-notch farrier, they're just OK. My best "barefoot" trims have been from farriers that regularly shoe ASB and/or TWH show horses. They don't babble any of that "natural" mumbo-jumbo, they just trim the foot- and the horses (mostly broodmares and young stock) wear their feet evenly and never have a lick of problems. Heck the old mares will often go months between trims if the weather isn't too screw-y. A few times I've had farriers that wanted to talk "natural", and I didn't call them back because the feet looked like crap within a month or so, and usually they did tend to take too much heel. My horses have excellent feet and legs and I'd like to keep it that way, so I stick with traditional farriers. Can you get another respected farrier to look at her feet?

Jun. 18, 2006, 04:28 PM

...usually they did tend to take too much heel.

LOL, that would be a first if that were indeed the case! :)

slb

Jun. 18, 2006, 05:06 PM

EqT....very :cool:

Petalstorm, I think you have generally been given some good advice here. It is becoming more widely known that the traditional recommended treatment for navicular of Isox and bar shoes is not working....and as was pointed out...may actually come with more issues than the horse began with.

The one thing I would say is....just because the trim is "barefoot/natural" doesn't mean that it is "correct". I totally agree that it takes more than just certs and a few months of schooling to be able to understand how to correctly trim/shoe....especially when it comes to more difficult, out of the norm cases.

Being barefoot doesn't automatically exempt a horse from problems commonly associated with shoeing. The shoes are rarely the underlying cause of the problem...it is the trim that makes the difference. It doesn't matter if the foot is shod or barefoot, if the trim isn't addressing the issues, then no matter how many shoes are applied, or what kinds, or how many certified trimmers work on your horse...it will not fix the problem.

I would first want clarification from the vet if they are saying that the heels are too "low" (as in cut too short) or if they are saying that the heels are too low as in underrun/crushed/not growing.

I agree that the x-rays don't really make or break a naviuclar case....some have been dignosed with navicular without leisons and others that have them never take a lame step or have navicular symptoms of any kind. I would want blocks to see where the issue lies.

Overlaid bars that have grown that way since the last trim will not generally be the cause of lameness. This is generally only the issue when they have been allowed to remain that way for long enough to cause pressure on the sole and make the sole thin.

As for impacted bars...if the hoof form is approaching correct...ie not contracted in the rear...this should not be an issue. In general, there is only one school of though that promotes this "impaction" as an observation and an issue.

There are so many variables to addressing a lame horse that has symptoms attributed to its feet that it takes a very skilled and experienced farrier/trimmer to address the issue. If the toes are left too long, if the heels are too high/low, if the weight bearing isn't applied to the rear 2/3 of the foot, if the point of breakover isn't correctly addressed....all of this and much more can make the horse lame...or cause it to continue to be lame.

I would expand my knowledge base beyond all of that posted by EqT and also get the DVD or video from www.hopeforsoundness.com. I would also highly recommend that you visit the www.barefoothorse.com site for more understanding of breakover. It is a key element to curing lameness issues and one that is often overlooked by many farriers and trimmers.

Lookout

Jun. 18, 2006, 10:32 PM

EqT....very :cool:
As for impacted bars...if the hoof form is approaching correct...ie not contracted in the rear...this should not be an issue. In general, there is only one school of though that promotes this "impaction" as an observation and an issue.

If more schools of thought 'promoted' this this concept perhaps the rampant problems of navicular unsoundness would be reduced.

Contraction is a contributory factor but once the impaction exists, it's a chicken-egg situation of not being able to correct the contraction until the impaction problem is resolved because it holds the foot in a contracted form.

Tree

Jun. 19, 2006, 09:54 AM

Contraction is a contributory factor but once the impaction exists, it's a chicken-egg situation of not being able to correct the contraction until the impaction problem is resolved because it holds the foot in a contracted form.

So true. If heels are lowered without the bars being fully addressed the horse is set up for MORE heel pain than it had before. This is often times considered, by those who don't know any better, the result of lowering the heels too much. They don't consider or recognize the signs of excess bar continuing to prop the coffin bone up in an unnatural tilt and how the excess impacted bar horn crowds the navicular bone too. Hooves cannot be expected to decontract if the horse can't comfortably weight the heels.

Tree

egontoast

Jun. 19, 2006, 10:08 AM

Shoes are not evil. Some horses are more comfortable in shoes and many horses with navicular syndrome are more comfortable in eggbars, despite what barefoot evangelists will tell you. Discuss it with your vet.

cartera45

Jun. 19, 2006, 10:13 AM

How do you remedy impacted bars?

slb

Jun. 19, 2006, 10:35 AM

If more schools of thought 'promoted' this this concept perhaps the rampant problems of navicular soundness would be reduced.

Contraction is a contributory factor but once the impaction exists, it's a chicken-egg situation of not being able to correct the contraction until the impaction problem is resolved because it holds the foot in a contracted form.
Just pointing out the obvious Lookout....not looking to hijack this thread with a long-winded, circular discussion on this topic. :)

slb

Jun. 19, 2006, 10:48 AM

So true. If heels are lowered without the bars being fully addressed the horse is set up for MORE heel pain than it had before. This is often times considered, by those who don't know any better, the result of lowering the heels too much.
This is a good point Tree. Many times heels might be lowered to the point they should be, but the bars are not taken down to where they should. This does casue issues. The entrie bottom of the hoof has to be addressed to some degree...that isn't to say that it all needs "trimming", but all the structures (sole, bar, frog, heel buttrus and even toe callous) need to be examined and assessed for the part they play in weightbearing and if they are in the proper perspecives and healthy enough to do their part.

They don't consider or recognize the signs of excess bar continuing to prop the coffin bone up in an unnatural tilt and how the excess impacted bar horn crowds the navicular bone too.
Tree, this is a most interesting observation....and since you have now made it a part of this discussion, could you please post a pic demonstrating these issues?

chawley

Jun. 19, 2006, 11:09 AM

IndysMom

Jun. 19, 2006, 11:17 AM

OP,
Here's my advice (Cash was dx two years ago with navicular. His navicular bones are actually deformed) for what it's worth. I've got two years of experience with this and still learning.

Get a good vet. Do what he says and work closely with your farrier. Learn everything you can, but be aware that barefoot is unlikely to ever be an option again, despite what the barefooters are promoting. Once your horse is sound, go with what works. My vet (who vets many Olympic team horses) says that once he gets the horse sound-he NEVER changes that shoeing combination until it doesn't work anymore. Be willing to use pain meds. You don't want to be in pain, why should you subject your horse to that? Even if it's a pasture puff.

Enjoy every ride, keep your horse fit enough for the work you're doing (i.e., don't ride once or twice a week and expect your horse to be able to work). Keeping him/her fit will help him/her to be less fragile.

One last piece of advice? It's the hardest one. Try not to obsess over every footfall. If you treat them appropriately, use the right meds and keep them fit enough for their work-they aren't as fragile as we fear.

LMH

Jun. 19, 2006, 11:42 AM

Why is barefoot NEVER an option again? That's absurd and dramatic.

slb

Jun. 19, 2006, 11:54 AM

Why is barefoot NEVER an option again? That's absurd and dramatic.

Yup....that's even worse than shoes never being an option! :winkgrin:

Petalstorm

Jun. 19, 2006, 12:25 PM

http://devildoc.googlepages.com/horsepage

Since I last posted I have been in contact with my trimmer. I feel as if I am being blamed a bit for my horse's problem. They are pointing to the fact that she gets Ultium twice a day, that she is too fat. She is a typical TB, a bit of a hard keeper and not at all fat IMHO. Generally she is a bit ribby and it will be quite easy to get her back to that weight. They also are pointing to her being on progesterone. My vet suggested this bacause my mare was having severe mood swings when she was in heat. The lameness started around April, long before she got hormones. Has anyone heard of hormones that are given for mare moodiness affecting the feet?

I am a lay person but to me there is a marked difference between the right and left foot. She is more lame on the right.

marta

Jun. 19, 2006, 12:38 PM

got a new lease on life once she went barefoot.
we did isox, all sorts of natural stuff w/ devil's claw, wedge shoes and even bute. i finally pulled her shoes and she's now better than ever. she's even sound on a 10 meter circle!!! i wouldn't give up on barefoot maybe she just wasn't getting a right trim. when i initially pulled her shoes i was using a local farrier. he really wasn't doing much for her and it wasn't until i got someone really knowledgeable on barefoot trims that she began improving.

shawneeAcres

Jun. 19, 2006, 12:41 PM

No my dear I don't think you are being blamed. You are being caught up in the ongoing juvenile "my way is the ONLY WAY" debate between the barefooters and the rest of us! At any rate, yes from teh views the right front SHOULD be more affected as she is quite underslung in the foot. I personally would do my original suggestion, start there and then progress as needed. She appears to need some support and I feel bringing the toe back and changing her breakover point is a good start

EqTrainer

Jun. 19, 2006, 01:29 PM

Ok, after a quick glance at the pics, this is what I see/think.

Her right front foot - may very well have some hoof wall separation. Look at it sideways.. there is a nice bulge there. My guess (and this is ONLY a guess!) is that she is unsound on this foot because she is trying to get off her toe, which often leads to them overloading the back of their foot, which leads to "heel pain", which then gets diagnosed as navicular.

The fix? Dress that toe back until there is no hoof wall touching the ground and the flare is eliminated. The hoof wall above it looks attached very nicely. Why she has separation below that I could not say... could be her diet, could be the previous trim. HOWEVER I would not do this unless I could personally look at her foot and do a little investigation with my hoof knife. I would also *consider* rockering that toe to push her breakover back a little bit, it's not quite as far back as it could be. But I would probably just address the flare first and in about two weeks lower her heels a little bit.. I don't think they really have THAT far to go down, although once P3 pops back up a little bit you'll have some more heel to take off. If that did not help pretty quickly then I would consider rockering it. I might even rocker her heel buttresses a little bit at that time, again, would have to see how much they had come back. Finish the whole foot off with a roll that takes the hoof wall OFF the ground.

The other foot? Just needs the heels addressed a little bit, the whole foot rolled.

Lastly, the condition of her frogs alone could make her sensitive on the rear third of her foot, and even enough to make her appear to be classically navicular (heel sore). I would do the borax soak, or the vinegar soak, and pack that crevice w/cotton soaked in whatever solution you decide to use. Pay special attention to her medial/lateral balance across her heels, I can't tell anything about it from these pics, but if she is not landing with both heels at the same time then you can literally have heel sheer which will cause that crevice and add to the inability to get rid of whatever funk has take up residence in there.

Her bars look a little funky to me, but bars in general still baffle me <LOL> so I might trim them up a little bit where they are running so close to her frog and see if that helped. If it didn't, I wouldn't do it again. You get the idea.

IMO your horses feet are really not in that bad of condition. My guess is that if you shod her, she would go temporarily sound, as it would hold her hoof wall together and get her frog a little off the ground. But in the long run it would not fix the issues at hand. If you get them fixed and she is still unsound, then it might be time to talk about shoes. But you have, IMO, a lot of work you can do before "going there".

Looking forward to what everyone else has to say!

Jun. 19, 2006, 01:41 PM

I have seen no "my way is the only way" debate on this thread.

I have only seen barefooters attempting to squelch the idea that shoes are always the only way a navicular horse can return to soundness.

I pretty much agree with ET here. On the LF, I see heels that need to come back (they aren't back at the wide part of the frog), which means they need to be trimmed down. The lateral view of the feet shows the LF is a little high in the heel, which is contributing to the difference between the two.

The RF solar shows heels that look to be pretty much back at the wide part of the frog - good :) I also see the little bulge in the toe area (side pic) and in the solar see what looks to be an overall bit of white line stretching, from quarter to quarter. There also appears, in this picture, to be some bruising right at the tip of the toe, in the solar shot. That might be a figment of my imagination though ;)

As for the bars - there IS something funky going on. I think it's that they are overgrown and not distinguishable from the sole. At least in these pictures, on my monitor, I can't make out much of any bar beyond right where it turns the corner at the heel.

LMH

Jun. 19, 2006, 04:14 PM

Yup....that's even worse than shoes never being an option! :winkgrin:

*snicker* slbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Su Valley

Jun. 19, 2006, 05:23 PM

I would {still} like to know what kind of references you can provide that bar material can and does get impacted. I asked you this once before when you suggested it for someone else and you never really answered the question. I am not trying to be hateful, just genuinely curious! From what I've read so far, no one can prove that it is possible for bar material to get impacted up into the hoof capsule.

Stepping right into the fray here, I hope you don't mind ;)

I saw the evidence with my own eyes, that the bars on my horses' feet had not been "relieved" for a long time....when you picked up the hoof, it was very easy to see that there was actually a bulge where the bars should be, with a faint line showing the compression. This was the first week of March this year. We have just this past weekend been able to cut that away completely...having to work slowly due to other nastiness-extremely underrrun heels, and long toes, etc. It all comes together a little at a time ;)

Lookout

Jun. 19, 2006, 05:29 PM

No my dear I don't think you are being blamed. You are being caught up in the ongoing juvenile "my way is the ONLY WAY" debate between the barefooters and the rest of us!
Um, she said "they". They are blaming her by pointing to the progesterone and being overweight.

Lookout

Jun. 19, 2006, 07:01 PM

Once your horse is sound, go with what works. My vet (who vets many Olympic team horses) says that once he gets the horse sound-he NEVER changes that shoeing combination until it doesn't work anymore.

:eek: :lol:

Until it doesn't work anymore?!? What does that tell you? It tells me that the shoeing combination is not a long term solution and isn't healing anything.

Your scenario happens to be exactly the one that was recommended to me by a slew of vets with the thinking that it would "prolong" his career for a time. Until we got to the end of the line and they said they had nothing left to "offer", and recommended euthanasia. Long story short, he is barefoot and sound today.

These feet look as though the trim is pretty good, but this is a very good example of the type of trim that has me repeating, to get a better barefoot trim.

The hoof form is characteristic of feet with navicular. The lateral cartilages are pushed up out of the hoof capsule despite the fact that the feet do not appear terribly contracted. This does cause pain. At the moment the bars are long enough that they are pushing the LC's out of the hoof capsule and preventing them from dropping down. The foot needs to get hoof expansion (via the trim) to give the LC's room to relax and drop down. I would do so by floating the quarters and lowering the bars, and cleaning up the heels to be further back and neater. Also the frog has no ground contact, it is too buried in the hoof capsule. This is also a characteristic of the above problems, and corrected in the same fashion.

Petalstorm

Jun. 19, 2006, 07:55 PM

We live in a suburb of Denver, Colorado. Does anyone know of a trimmer that can fix my poor horse?

slb

Jun. 19, 2006, 08:51 PM

Contract www.hopeforsoundness.com, they are based in CO and work closely with several farriers in the area. Email them directly or post on their forum and Cody or someone will give you the name of a reputable farrier that can help you.

cartera45

Jun. 19, 2006, 09:38 PM

:eek: :lol:

The hoof form is characteristic of feet with navicular. The lateral cartilages are pushed up out of the hoof capsule despite the fact that the feet do not appear terribly contracted. This does cause pain. At the moment the bars are long enough that they are pushing the LC's out of the hoof capsule and preventing them from dropping down.

I'm not sure I understand all this - will you explain in more detail and tell what you see in the pictures that tell you this?

Lookout

Jun. 19, 2006, 10:02 PM

The pictures show these "bulges" above the coronary bands (large ones), especially the inside of the LF.
Maybe you can look thru hoof pictures on here and compare and see if you see or don't see such bulges on other feet. I haven't time right now, but when I do I will try to find some for you.

Another thing you can do is to look at johnthevet.com's website. He has some some great dissections showing the relationship between the Lateral cartilages and the bars and how, if the bars push up into the hoof capsule (by being too long), it pushes up the LC's, and does not give them a way to "flex". They are effectively "trapped" in place.

cartera45

Jun. 19, 2006, 11:05 PM

I do see bulges but wouldn't have known what they were. I'll read the info - thanks.

IndysMom

Jun. 20, 2006, 07:14 AM

We tried barefoot. Didn't work. horse in IMMENSE PAIN. Went back to the tennesee navicular bar shoe. Added Isox and bute. Horse sound.

END OF STORY.

You can flame me all you want, but he's sound WITH SHOES and a cripple WITHOUT. The FACTS are that frequently navicular disease is a CHRONIC DEGENERATIVE DISEASE and I've got the x-rays to prove it. I will do WHATEVER it takes for him to remain comfortable, up to and including nerving. Does this make me a bad horse owner-NOT IN MY BOOK. His comfort is my responsibility. I WON'T have a horse in pain-PERIOD. More FACTS-he's not going to get better-those bones WON'T regenerate. The best we can hope for is to HOLD at where we are.

Would I prefer barefoot?-YOU BET. However, the FACTS ARE that some horses just aren't sound without shoes and NO ONE should feel pressured or guilty or whatever other trip that people want to lay on them if their horse has to have shoes and can't be barefoot. Having to have shoes isn't the end of the world.

So, get down off your high horses and give people some room to learn and make their own decisions. Unless you want to take in EVERY horse with navicular problems and give it a shot at barefoot. LAY OFF!!!

Take this however you want, but I feel a little strongly about it.

EqTrainer

Jun. 20, 2006, 07:27 AM

Indysmom, let me see if I can soften this a little bit (coming from someone who evaluates the horse being barefoot and/or shod, with equal enthusiasm).

The thing that concerns people about the "leave him (don't change anything) this way until he's no longer sound" statement is that it implies that there is further degeneration happening, that it is acknowledged, accepted and actually being perpetuated by the vet. Given that this particular prescription for a horse with navicular syndrome is very outdated, it is alarming. I cannot remember how many horses my very up to date and educated, farrier, reshod that were shod as "navicular horses" with wedges and pads that had "reached the wall" of no longer sound shod that way. He would trim them properly (often making huge changes and adjustments to their feet), no wedges, no pads, and more often than not those horses were sound. He considered it the next step before barefoot, or at least a state where the horse could possibly heal and remain forever. What is a little scary about this is, he did this directly against the wishes of the vets advising the owners to wedge and pad. He was *never supported* in this by the veterinarian community, no matter *how* many horses he returned to soundness.

I hope you understand that I am not accusing you or attacking you, just hope this explains why when people hear that a vet has said that, they become alarmed, if they have seen a better way for the horse. IMO it does not have to be barefoot. I wish your horse the absolute best of luck and am sure you are doing the best you can for him and that he is not in pain, which is so very important. If you find yourself later on up against that wall and would like to discuss it with me feel free to PM me at anytime.

colleent

Jun. 20, 2006, 07:45 AM

Indy's Mom-Thank you! i agree, NOT every horse can go barefoot. AND my horse deserves to be pain free, so i would do whatever i could to find out how to make it happen. if Barefoot is not working, try a farrier experienced in shoeing horses with navicular.

cartera45

Jun. 20, 2006, 08:20 AM

While I prefer barefoot, I don't have a problem with shoes either. For me, it is the trim that is the key. I also do not necessarily think that vets are the best source for the final word on this issue - unless that vet has extraordinary experience with lameness issues. The best role the vet can play is the provide xrays to help the farrier or barefoot trimmer perform the best trim. Vets are no different from human doctors - they can't possibly keep up with all the research and new techniques used in every specialty and I think lameness treatment is a specialty. I would not work with either a vet or a farrier who was absolutely against barefoot or absolutely against shoes. I prefer open minds.

Jun. 20, 2006, 08:45 AM

Please make sure that when discussing "navicular" you are making a VERY clear distinction between Syndrom and Disease.

Syndrom is a catch-all for heel pain. Period. This is often caused by contracted heels - high or crushed and underrun. Bars play a role also. Long toes (usually accompanied by contracted heels) can also be involved.

If you are talking about ND, with true degeneration of the navicular bone, that's one thing. As that is usually progressive, there will come a point where the horse is not sound, period. Not without shoes, not with shoes.

I would tend to agree with most folks that when talking about NS, shoes are not the issue. The proper trim is. Fail there, and shoes might temporarily help, but the horse will eventually reach a point where flat shoes aren't working, so wedges are added. Still not fixing the trim, the horse will eventually get to a point where wedges aren't working, and so on.

NS vs ND - big difference. What they have in common in curing/alleviating/helping is a correct trim, period. Add shoes on top of that, I don't care. Just don't say shoes are failing or the horse could never go barefoot or he'd be crippled if you don't have the trim right.

Jenn2674

Jun. 20, 2006, 08:48 AM

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned but I only skimmed through the posts as it seemed to get into the barefoot vs shoes debate. I am of the opinion that lots of horses can go barefoot but not all can and vice versa. We have to always remain openminded. ust because it worked for one horse does not mean it will work for all horses!

Anyway, when I read the original post, my first thought was that the diagnosis and treatment seemed a bit oldfashioned. I though bar shoes were a last resort nowdays. Anyway, my advice would be to get those xrays and get a second opinion from a vet that specializes in lamenesses. Xrays aren't the whole picture. My horse was foot sore and xrays showed some mild navicular changes but in the end that wasn't what was making them sound (but i realize this is different from what the OP posted). Also, my horse was barefoot for a while and did really well until we increased his workouts and the ground got really hard in the summer. He is ridden on sand but spends the rest of the time on turnout. Shoes were the only way to go with him. I tried really hard to keep him barefoot!

IndysMom

Jun. 20, 2006, 09:40 AM

good point

I wish it were only NS because then I could do things to "fix" it. However, the x-rays show that the nav bones-instead of being little boats, are little w's with plenty of rough spots and spurs. Vet says it is most likely genetic, not "shoeing/trimming" induced. Nasty, very, very nasty...

And on such a nice horse. He's a TRUE pleasure horse-a pleasure to ride every time. sigh...

LMH

Jun. 20, 2006, 11:53 AM

As always when this topic comes up, I have an excellent article by Dr Bowker that was published in the Thoroughbred Times on treating horses with 'navicular'-if anyone would like a copy emailed, just PT your email to me and I am happy to send it along.

CookiePony

Jun. 20, 2006, 01:21 PM

I think I posted this on another navicular thread-- the Horse Journal suggests MRIs as an excellent way to really see what is going on with soft tissues inside the hoof. This is in contrast to ultrasound, which can't get through the hoof wall, or radiographs, which don't show the soft tissues. The only problem is that not every horsepital has one so you have to find a facility that does. It's probably not cheap, either.

But-- if he were mine, I wouldn't want to stop at diagnosing the bony changes, since so many sound horses have navicular bone irregularities. I would want to know exactly what soft tissue structures might also be involved. If your vet is suggesting old-fashioned remedies, perhaps he is not as familiar with new diagnostic tools, either.

CookiePony

Jun. 20, 2006, 01:27 PM

You're in CO, right? Here is an article about CO State getting a new MRI machine!

http://www.equineortho.colostate.edu/pdf/arthros2005.pdf

thehoofman

Jun. 20, 2006, 05:17 PM

I'm the AANHCP trimmer in question here. Let me put my two cents in. Patience is a virtue that not every person has. And telling the whole truth here would have been a help.
I started trimming Petalstorm's horse (the navicular horse) on July 21,2005 doing natural hoof care, following the AANHCP model of the wild mustang. This mare had very flat feet, wall separation and was overgrown. She was kept and has been kept up to this point on a very regular trimming schedule. She did have a rough time going through transition and about a month after I started trimming her she had a stifle problem. (I keep very good notes and pictures of the horses in my care. ) I would drive 250 miles round trip to help petalstorm when she was having a rough time going through the horse's issues. In fact I have already been to her place 2 times this month, but did not know this horse was having problems until the 13th of this month. In fact, she took 3rd in an Eventing Competition in April out of 50 entrees, Petalstorm bragged that she would have taken 2nd if she hadn't missed a jump and was very excited about her horse's prospects, pretty good for a horse with navicular!!

My wife and I have talked to her about diet, exercise and miles over and over again. My wife did address the weight issue with her on June 19 after petalstorm initiated an email consult with a nationally known vet who is a barefoot advocate. He told us he saw nothing wrong with the trim but did suspect weight, toughness and movement as issues.
Petalstorm's horses, as far as we have observed, are in turnout in their paddocks 24/7 and sometimes are turned out onto the grass. They do have gravel in the paddocks under the 2 inches of wood chips (we suggessted she not put in), she has at least 2 pair of boots for the mare (one pair we just gave to her), they are fed grass hay, but only twice a day. The horses are fed a pelleted food, which is her choice, but not natural.

The feet, which as you can see from the pictures, were scheduled to be trimmed on July 1, every five to six weeks. The mustang roll was cleaned up once this month already, while attending to one of her other horses. The trim is based on the standard AANHCP guidelines for emulating the wild mustang foot. These guidelines have been proven time and again.

As one can imagine this thread was a shock to us, but we're not sure why petalstorm went about this in an covert manner. I feel every horse owner should make their own decisions about their horse care, it's not MY WAY ONLY. My wife and I believe in natural horse care, our personal experience and observation have shown us this is the right way, and we are very passionate about horses.

We wish Petalstorm well and the best for her horses.

Petalstorm

Jun. 20, 2006, 10:13 PM

This is getting silly.
I never meant to hurt anyone's feelings.
I'm sorry if I did that.
I just want to help my horse.
I don't think that feeding my mare some Ultium made her lame. I don't think feeding twice a day and often hay at lunch, made her lame.
I don't think the footing in my paddocks made her lame.
I don't know what made her lame.
I just want some help bringing her back to soundness, if it is possible.

Lookout

Jun. 20, 2006, 10:18 PM

Degeneration of the navicular bone, rough spots, and spurs have not been shown to cause unsoundness.

Steel on the bottom of the feet has not been shown to correct the above.

BasqueMom

Jun. 20, 2006, 10:45 PM

My now-departed due to very old age horse, Fudge, was diagnosed with
navicular in 1990. Ixo and eggbars. Sound again. Played with the dosage
of Ixo and 20 a day seemed to work. Ate it with his grain like a good boy.
We continued walk, trot, canter, jump, etc.

Three years later, had him re-xrayed--no more changes to navicular bones. Hurray! But did up ixo to 30 a day.

Somewhere along the line, new farrier suggested regular shoes with wedge
pads. Worked well. Fudge eventually retired in 1997 due to arthritis in a front knee. Kept up the shoeing and ixo. Happy camper! Around 1998, a new farrier who used Natural Balance shoes suggested just the shoes and no pads. Gave it a try and worked. That winter, he suggested no shoes in an attempt to let the soles have some ground contact. Vet shook her head but
said give it a try. He did fine for several months and then we put him back
in the shoes when ground got hard and dry.

By the way, the Natural Balance farrier had my horses going better than
any farrier before or after has. Can't seem to find any one in my little corner of Texas that doesn't laugh in my face when I mention them.

My present farrier, and Fudge's last farrier, suggested regular shoes on
backwards. Trick she learned from an old timer. Gave it a try and it worked.

Fudge rarely had shoes on his back feet during the 19 years I owned him. And was often barefoot a good portion of the year before being diagnosed.

Navicular can be managed and just do whatever it takes. If they had told
me to put him sequined Nikes, I'd have done it for him.

Good luck!

slb

Jun. 20, 2006, 11:13 PM

I saw the evidence with my own eyes, that the bars on my horses' feet had not been "relieved" for a long time....when you picked up the hoof, it was very easy to see that there was actually a bulge where the bars should be, with a faint line showing the compression. This was the first week of March this year. We have just this past weekend been able to cut that away completely...having to work slowly due to other nastiness-extremely underrrun heels, and long toes, etc. It all comes together a little at a time ;)
Could we elaborate on this further? I don't want to hijack the thread, but I think that this is an important topic and might shed some light on what others might experience with their horses.

First, if you could claify what you mean in your description of the bars. It sounds like you are describing bars that are covered with sole so that they are only visable as something under the sole...or possibly under an overgrown frog? Not really uunderstanding you on this.

Also what do you mean by "with a faint line showing the compression" :confused:

Oh, and is your horse dx navicular? If so how? And has it gone sound yet...or was it not lame to begin with? Hope I didn't miss any of this in a previous post...if so, forgive me.

Sorry for the bother, but I think we could all learn from further discussion of this case. It sounds very interesting. Thanks.....:)

EqTrainer

Jun. 21, 2006, 08:03 AM

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 08:04 AM

These feet aren't freshly trimmed so I cannot offer any comments about the trim itself but only what I see as they are in the photos AND what I think I see too.

In the lateral views it's clear that the fronts are at differing angles. The Left is steeper and the Right is lower. I also see what appear to be deviations in the medial quarter wall of the RF. There is a deviation in the hairline corresponding to it. I would suspect excess quarter pressure. The horn tubules are also taking a different angle in the wall to the rear of the quarter so I would suspect the heels are underrun. The hairline angle in the RF appears to be at 30 degrees. The hairline of the LF looks somewhere below 30. I also find it interesting that the horse stood with the RF out in front and LF back. That would make sense as they probably feel more comfortable in those positions given their respective angles. In the lateral view of the RF the hairline appears to be arched as is the medial hairline of the LF. There is also a deviation in the profile of the RF toe wall about mid-way down from the hairline.

In the sole views it seems the heels are a bit high and no longer end at the widest area of the frog. That would be typical growth. The heels also hook in towards the frogs with the laid over bars bending. One appears to have a crack in it. These hooves look to be very dried out showing a mix of dead sole and excess bar leading to the frog tips. There is a lump of bar material forming a bulge in what I think was the RF outside half of the sole next to the frog. During a trim abraiding the sole areas would shed better light on whether it's sole or bar material in some places. The bulbs aren't symmetrically shaped which tends to indicate uneven weighting of them. One foot shows more contraction than the other and the bars would have to be taken down more than usual to allow decontraction to take place. Of course the horse would have to be getting plenty of exercise and soaks too. Dried bar horn is hard even then thinned and can prevent a horse from weighting its heels.

The toes show excessive wear as there is no ridge of wall above the sole plane like there is from there on back into the heels. This tends to indicate a frontally loaded foot. I don't notice any separations that would concern me. The sole callous is small but I'd like to see wall rising above the sole plane in the toes vs not.

The lateral cartilages do appear more prominently above the hoof capsule in the LF (steepest foot). I would want to be sure the bars were trimmed down enough (and heels too) so that this foot could be better balanced. When I tried to measure its toe angle it seemed to fall on 55 which is too steep. The RF appeared to be at a 45. With a possible 10 degree difference this would definitely affect the timing. The LF would seem to short stride while the RF would take longer strides but require more effort during breakover. I wouldn't expect to trim the LF to a 45 but would shoot more for a 50 and bring the breakover on the RF back to what a 50 would be via vertical rasping of the toe edge. This would atleast allow the two forelimbs to breakover more evenly. It would take time to bring that LF down but I would suspect changes in the coffin bone shape would limit just how close to 45 it could get. I'd be happy with equal timing and not worry about matching the toe angles exactly.

I would also trim the sides of the frogs on back to where they meet the actual heel horn at the periople. The excess frog back there covers the collateral grooves and would be a great place for thrush to form under more wet conditions. Dirt or manure could easily remain lodged in those areas. I would want to find where the tips of the frog cleanly meet with sole and then blend the sole surface from there to follow the natural contours mimicking the coffin bones. Most of the sole trimming I see would remove the exfoliating stuff (it's all cracked looking from being dry) and definitely go for the lump on the one side where there's likely a bar pool. Those things can be painful and show a bruise once trimmed down. As far as the top surface of the frog I'd just make sure the tip was the lowest and taper it on up to heel level at its widest part.

The bulbs appear to be quite flat lacking much height in the RF. This also goes along with underrun heels.

It's interesting to see how the pasterns match up to their respective foot angles. If you saw your xrays (lateral views I hope), how did each coffin bone shape compare to the other?

Tree

slb

Jun. 21, 2006, 08:17 AM

Gee Tree...a little picky to day aren't we.....
Just kidding...excellent eval! :yes:

draft_farrier

Jun. 21, 2006, 09:31 AM

Well, what's the reccommendation for the horse???? It is (STILL) in pain. Get another AAHNCP trimmer?? How many should she try before rethinking her (apparent?) barefoot only stand???? Wonder if shoes might not be in order here????? Just wondering if the welfare of the horse is first, or are egos and agendas more important. Personally.....I'd have had that horse in shoes long ago. I don't really give a damn WHY he's hurting at this point......my FIRST PRIORITY is to remove the pain. Once he's sound (pain-free), then we'll start trying to figure out WHAT is wrong, and make a game plan to address the issues.

Now, before you go spouting off.......I JUST took on a "navicular" horse, who was in 3 degree wedge eggbars. Watching him move, and looking at his foot before and after after removing the shoe, I was not convinced of the diagnosis, especially with the scant history the new owner had of the horse. So, I left the shoes off, did a no nonsense trim...same one I have been doing for years and years and years.....and told the owner if she sees ANYTHING off about him, call me immediatly. She called 4 days later and said he's doing great, and the kids are riding him again. I really doubt the horse was navicular....and I'm sure (now) he doesn't need shoes.

Some horses don't need shoes.....some REALLY need them...

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 09:52 AM

Gee Tree...a little picky to day aren't we.....
Just kidding...excellent eval! :yes:

Yes. Loads of time to sit and do little else. Just over a week ago I pulled my back badly and I'm sidelined and taking drugs (muscle relaxer and an anti-inflammatory) and up for as long as I can stand it and on my back when I can't. I'd much rather be working...no income during down times!

Tree

egontoast

Jun. 21, 2006, 10:00 AM

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 10:18 AM

How many should she try before rethinking her (apparent?) barefoot only stand???? Wonder if shoes might not be in order here????? Just wondering if the welfare of the horse is first, or are egos and agendas more important. Personally.....I'd have had that horse in shoes long ago. I don't really give a damn WHY he's hurting at this point......my FIRST PRIORITY is to remove the pain. Once he's sound (pain-free), then we'll start trying to figure out WHAT is wrong, and make a game plan to address the issues.

It's an educational process any way you look at it.

I don't know that this owner has a "barefoot only" mindset here. It does appear that she is adding to what she knows about hooves. To know what to do often times means taking a trial and error approach. I also wouldn't assume that all AANHCP trimmers trim alike. I don't think the owner's ego is a concern here, IMO. They seem bent on finding what will help their horse. The choices rest with the owner.

Tree

Auventera Two

Jun. 21, 2006, 10:20 AM

It's been my understanding that navicular is described as a syndrome because it is just that- an identifiable group of symptoms, mainly heel pain. heel pain/navicular syndrome can have many causes and ids not limited to physical deterioration of the navicular bone . If heel pain is relieved by eggbars (as it often is) that does not mean there was a wrong diagnosis. it means the horse is comfortable and that is GOOD.

There have been horses sound for many years with eggbars and there have been horses unsound for years while they go through the barefoot
'cure'. Barefoot is not always the way to go.

Navicular SYNDROME and Navicular DISEASE are two different things. Syndrome can be applied to any type of unidentified heel pain. Navicular disease is the evidence of navicular bone degeneration and remodeling, and the two terms cannot be used interchangably.

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 10:32 AM

If heel pain is relieved by eggbars (as it often is) that does not mean there was a wrong diagnosis. it means the horse is comfortable and that is GOOD.

Heel pain can be relieved many ways. I'm was more familiar with egg bars in combination with heel wedge pads. However, it has a limited effect when the underlying cause for the heel pain is left unaddressed.

Some seem to think that egg bars are the only remedy for the rest of the animal's life. Then I hear Farriers advise that they are a temporary measure vs a permanent one. Long-term use of egg bars tends to do nasty things to hoof form. One of these things I'm personally familiar with are the crushed underrun contracted heels. I'm not the only one who has witnessed examples of this with egg bar shoes.

There have been horses sound for many years with eggbars...

There are horses that appear sounder with shoes in general and very lame the moment they lose one. This supports the idea that horses can't go without shoes. When I see horses wearing egg bars, I wonder what is wrong with their feet.

... and there have been horses unsound for years while they go through the barefoot
'cure'. Barefoot is not always the way to go.

When I see lame barefooted horses, I wonder what is wrong with their hooves too. Not all trimming methods address hoof issues.

I tend to suggest shoes when it's clear that the owner can't cope with a barefooted horse. ;)

Tree

Auventera Two

Jun. 21, 2006, 10:36 AM

Well, what's the reccommendation for the horse???? It is (STILL) in pain. Get another AAHNCP trimmer?? How many should she try before rethinking her (apparent?) barefoot only stand???? Wonder if shoes might not be in order here?????

Just curious but - you're a farrier. You put shoes on horses. So if my horse were persistently and stubbornly lame or sore under your care would you suggest that I find a AAHNCP trimmer? Why or why not?

Your post condemns those who switch from one trimmer to another instead of finding a FARRIER to just put shoes on the horse. So I guess the question is - if the traditional farriery methods are not working, then surely you would condemn those who find another farrier instead of looking for a TRIMMER to pull the shoes off and transition the horse into a fully barefoot lifestyle (diet, exercise, and feet). Right? ;)

EqTrainer

Jun. 21, 2006, 11:12 AM

Well, I for one am tickled to hear the trimmers comments. Always interesting to hear both sides of every story. However, I don't think there is anything wrong w/the OP gathering more information about why her horse may be sore, whether it is from this BB or her veterinarian.

To the OP - if your horse happens to be insulin resistant, for example, YES feeding her Ultium could make her have foot issues. I am of the opinion that her one foot appears to have separation so perhaps this is indeed an issue. Is she on any type of magnesium/chromium supplement? I would also agree that a very dry environment is helpful when you are trying to sort thru these issues.

FWIW, I am NOT anti-shoe. I just don't see, in these feet, that there is no room for improvement in the trim itself, (and now we know also the environment and possibly the diet) so I would not jump to putting shoes on her. The immediate removal of pain is NOT a reason, IMO, to put shoes on a horse - because pain is a SYMPTOM that there is something wrong. I prefer to put shoes on a horse because I KNOW what is wrong and I know EXACTLY what purpose the shoes are to provide. Putting shoes on, as a shot in the dark/bandaid does not address the cause of the pain necessarily. Then somewhere down the road it returns, or the horse is simply in the meantime NQR - maybe he has behavorial issues, maybe he is a pig for the farrier, etc. etc. - and there is always that lingering doubt of have we fixed the issue? Or have we just covered it up?

From a first aid perspective, I would trim her, put her in a dry environment, put her on at LEAST magnesium if not Quiessence, change her food to something more holistic (it is also possible that she is allergic to something in Ultium, and it is causing her to have metabolic issues), if she is still unsound put boots on her and if she is sound in boots start working her, even if it is walking around for an hour every day. She needs to move. But I would not shoe her until her foot form and function were better, if indeed I were going to shoe her. I certainly would not go straight to eggbars and/or wedges, I would probably go NB to address her breakover issue, if not just a nice wide web shoe.

Petalstorm

Jun. 21, 2006, 11:33 AM

Spoilsport

Jun. 21, 2006, 11:35 AM

To me, the removal of pain IS a reason to put on shoes. Kudos to the OP for listening to her horse, listening to her vet, and asking questions. Barefoot is great for many horses, but there are many horses with navicular, laminitis and other conditions that lead productive lives with corrective shoeing, and way too many horses that lead painful lives barefoot just to prove a "principle."

Oh, it is just so cult-ish to "blame the owner."

Lookout

Jun. 21, 2006, 11:38 AM

Well, what's the reccommendation for the horse???? It is (STILL) in pain. Get another AAHNCP trimmer?? How many should she try
Simple - another AANCHP if they make the (practically obvious) trimming changes suggested here. If not, one with credentials - proven case studies - and education logical knowledge to explain the problem and how the solution will fix it.

.....my FIRST PRIORITY is to remove the pain. Once he's sound (pain-free), then we'll start trying to figure out WHAT is wrong, and make a game plan to address the issues.
Seems like a bass ackwards approach to me. Fix, and find, the problem after you have taken steps to hide the source of it? I'd rather go with someone who can look at the feet and identify a problem and propose how they'll fix it.

Some horses don't need shoes.....some REALLY need them...
Because steel attached to the bottom of the foot corrects bony changes, right?

EqT thanks for those calm words of reason. But I thought Ultium was a recommended feed for IR types?
Two Simple - I agree with with you :eek:

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 11:48 AM

Since all this began last Thursday I have done a lot of reading, talking with different people and pondering every decision I have made in regard to my horses. Not been sleeping much...
Thus far I have not shod her. I have cut her Ultium waaaay back and as expected she has already dropped weight. This mare is a hard keeper. She wants to be ribby. It doesn't take much to get her there. She is definitely moving in a toe first way. I am waiting on some boots to arrive to see if that can help her.
How would I be able to tell if she was insulin resistant? What signs are there?

I don't know about determining IR tendencies but when you mention "hard keeper" I tend to think of horses that can't use themselves normally so they expend more than the normal amount of muscle energy while compenating. Of course, weight loss can be caused by other things too but this horse is lame and I just thought of the hoof issue weight loss connection first.

And I don't know what you're concept of "ribby" is either. Mine is that ribs show when the horse inhales. There's a layer of fat over them but they can still be seen as the ribcage expands and not so much as it relaxes.

Toe first landings is normal if a horse is poking along very slowly. If this same horse is reluctant to do an extended walk and would prefer to break into a jog trot or break into a canter vs extend the trot then I'd suspect heel pain. Having looked at the pics I already see conditions that would cause heel pain.

If the feet aren't properly trimmed boots would not help.

Tree

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 12:04 PM

To me, the removal of pain IS a reason to put on shoes.

If it does not address a horse's pain causing issues then they are only a band-aid. I think it is almost criminal, to the horse, if its problems are only covered up with metal. Pain is a signal that something isn't right. This would prevent a horse from sustaining more damage but if that pain is masked and yet the issues remain, the horse will 'think' that everything is okay. Some owners do too and that's the truly sad part about this, to me. If the owner truly felt their horse's issues had been dealt with by the application of the shoe and that there was no need to worry about anything coming of it in the future, they're in for a very nasty suprise. Issues don't go away when they're simply covered up. This is why founder and navicular are thought to be incurable.

Barefoot is great for many horses, but there are many horses with navicular, laminitis and other conditions that lead productive lives with corrective shoeing, and way too many horses that lead painful lives barefoot just to prove a "principle."

I'm glad that "barefoot" is taking on a new meaning other than the simple fact that a horse is shoeless.

Horses having navicular, laminitis and other conditions that shoes help to (ahem), keep going, live short productive lives on average. I don't condemn folks who keep these pathological horses "in service" but when such talented animals are spent before their time, it's rather sad. They're disposable though and another will come along and fill its place. The greats will be missed lasting only into their teens vs well into their 20's (or more). I tend to meet more of the best school horses by the time they're used up and haven't much left to try to fix thanks to all the efforts to keep them going WITH their issues covered up.

I can no longer go along with that mindset. It's not for me.

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 12:23 PM

Thus far I have not shod her. I have cut her Ultium waaaay back and as expected she has already dropped weight. This mare is a hard keeper. She wants to be ribby. It doesn't take much to get her there.

What, if anything, did you replace the Ultium with? There are many feeds that are safe for an IR horse (if that's the case). Alfalfa pellets, BOSS, flax, rice bran, non-molasses beet pulp. I would do as ET said, assume for now at least she's IR (an IR-appropriate diet is good even for non-IR horses) and eliminate the Ultium and replace it with other sources of calories, as mentioned above.

She is definitely moving in a toe first way. I am waiting on some boots to arrive to see if that can help her.

This is for sure telling you there is heel pain, and I bet boots (which ones did you go with?) will help.

How would I be able to tell if she was insulin resistant? What signs are there?
Your vet can do a glucose test, but some horses who are IR or at least carb-intolerant won't show it this way, so it's not guaranteed that no abnormal reading means she's not IR. The best proof you have is improvement in her overall body after getting off all sugars and reducing carbs. For some horses this can be seen literally overnight. For some it may take a couple of days or weeks, and they were likely milder cases to begin with.

Two Simple:
if the traditional farriery methods are not working, then surely you would condemn those who find another farrier instead of looking for a TRIMMER to pull the shoes off and transition the horse into a fully barefoot lifestyle

Thanks - I have been asking this same question/making this same comment over and over and it bugs the bejeepers out of me that it's always one-sided. "If the horse is lame barefoot, he can't go barefoot so put shoes on him" is all I ever hear. I never hear "if the horse is lame with shoes, take them off and get the trim right".

Jun. 21, 2006, 12:29 PM

my FIRST PRIORITY is to remove the pain. Once he's sound (pain-free), then we'll start trying to figure out WHAT is wrong, and make a game plan to address the issues.

Ok, serious question here. Let's say you did this with this horse. Based solely on what you see here and know from the OP, what would be the start of your game plan?

Would you, after say 3 re-sets of the shoe, take them off and see what happened? If the trim wasn't right to begin with, and didn't change during the shod period, I'd think the horse would be even more sore to be barefoot again.

If the trim wasn't right to begin with, but along with you putting shoes on you also fixed the trim, and the horse becomes sound, would you (and the OP?) then say "See, horse needed shoes to get and stay sound"? Or would you be aware of the possibility that your changes to the trim were actually the only reason the horse was sound and then take the shoes off? Would you even recommend taking the shoes off again if the horse was now sound?

I'm honestly curious how you might go about the game plan to figure out what was wrong, why it's (seemingly) right now, etc.

Auventera Two

Jun. 21, 2006, 12:33 PM

Two Simple - I agree with with you :eek:
:lol: LOL. That's okay. We all have our own opinions and stuff but we're all here for the purpose of just helping the horses, so I suppose we'll agree and disagree at different times. It's all good! :)

EqTrainer

Jun. 21, 2006, 01:00 PM

Regarding insulin resistance, IR horses are very often considered to be hard keepers because they tend to have muscle wasting. The way they look "skinny" is deceptive. If this horse appears to have lost weight very quickly after being taken off the Ultium it is also possible that she was retaining fluids due to her diet - IR horses are basically diabetics, with all the accompanying issues - and having taken her off the Ultium has altered something that allowed her to flush out those fluids. A long time ago, before I had ever heard the words Insulin Resistant, we had a horse who appeared to gain/lose 100 lbs in a matter of days. If I knew then what I know now... well, he was IR. He did leave us and subsequently founder; none of us KNEW about IR. Tough way to learn.

Ultium is NOT an appropriate feed for an insulin resistant horse; it is not as bad as some, but certainly not ideal. As JB points out, you cannot go wrong by changing the horse to an IR appropriate diet and it may be the best thing you could possibly do for the horse. My own vet does not recommend testing for IR; she says if the symptoms are there, change the diet - and that quite frankly what horse other than an upper level three day horse needs all those carbs found in most foods for energy? Not many. So the reduced carb diet is usually a good idea for any horse. In my own experience, they only get better and better in all ways, once off even moderate carb foods. I have recently taken my IR horse off all commercial feeds and taken my easy keeper also; I could not be more pleased with the results.

As Tree pointed out, animals that are experiencing pain may burn even more cals. Horses in pain actually burn more cals as they stiffen up and try to hold themselves up off the ground. It is a very common phenomena, and after they get comfy they settle into themselves and gain weight easily. It is also not to be taken lightly that pain increases cortizol levels, which can then cause metabolic issues. So reducing the horses pain IS important - very important - so I don't want anyone to think I am advocating leaving the horse suffering for some type of barefoot tunnel vision. In this horses case there is so much that *can* be changed that shoes WILL NOT CHANGE that I just don't see the point in going there right now. Surely we can all agree that it would be a shame to put shoes on her AND make all those changes and 1) never know why she became sound if she did and 2) possibly shoe a horse that really did not NEED shoes after all.

I suspect that just treating what appears to be a fungal frog may make her immediately more willing to weight her heels; fixing up the trim and getting any flared wall OFF the ground will help, too. There are also some herbal pain killers that would help her, after the corrections are made, to get moving - and that cannot be underestimated - that if she does not move, there will be no hoof mechanism and she will not get better. I prefer straight Devil's Claw for this type of thing - not as hard on the stomach as bute, when a horse is already stressed I find that bute is often the thing that sends their stomach over the edge but they tolerate the DC for a short period of time much better. It is always cool to take them off it after 10 days and see NO lapse of soundness or movement :)

There's just too much to change, to be doom and gloom at this point, and that is a good thing :)

LarkspurCO

Jun. 21, 2006, 01:17 PM

We live in a suburb of Denver, Colorado. Does anyone know of a trimmer that can fix my poor horse?

Why not a good farrier? He/she can trim and shoe. Depending on where you are, I may know someone.

Regardless of the big debate over barefoot vs shoeing, your horse's diagnosis, speculation about causative factors, yadda yadda yadda... I can say one thing that most people probably won't believe: MANY horses that can go barefoot elsewhere in the country CANNOT go barefoot in Colorado. Yes, it's true.

I would send the x-rays to another vet for second opinion. It's worth the money. Terry Swanson at Littleton perhaps.

Holly

P.S. Sorry to hear about your filly and the nail. Mine just cut herself up on the "horse safe" fence last week.

P.P.S. My filly's name is Shelby!

Auventera Two

Jun. 21, 2006, 01:51 PM

I can say one thing that most people probably won't believe: MANY horses that can go barefoot elsewhere in the country CANNOT go barefoot in Colorado. Yes, it's true.

Why on earth would that be? Because of weather/footing? I thought "out west" is where all the mustang models came from with the perfect feet.

EqTrainer

Jun. 21, 2006, 01:54 PM

Why on earth would that be? Because of weather/footing? I thought "out west" is where all the mustang models came from with the perfect feet.

I suspect it is because those horses are not kept in domestic situations, whereas in most domestic places, out west or not, horses are kept in unnatural situations and aren't trimmed optimally. The ground is so hard out there, and rocky, that I would think that those horses would really have a hard time.

cartera45

Jun. 21, 2006, 02:01 PM

When I rode at a ranch in Tucson, all the horses were barefoot and we rode on very rocky steep trails in, off course, very dry conditions. Their feet didn't look perfectly groomed but they were sound and very surefooted.

LarkspurCO

Jun. 21, 2006, 02:12 PM

What is it about Colorado? Extreme dry environment, hard hard hard hard hard hard ground, perhaps lifestyle, as noted. Rocks, schmocks. I don't know. It's all educated speculation, but the results speak for themselves. I base this on my own experience and that of farriers, trainers and vets I've talked with. They've all seen the difference.

I have one horse with lovely feet, always kept neatly trimmed (NB trim), no flare, short toes, big beautiful frogs, never shod until age seven, always turned out on 10-30 acres, a model of equine health. He CANNOT go barefoot. Isn't sound even riding on soft footing.

The gelding I brought here from the Midwest was barefoot 15 years just fine, on all kinds of rocky terrain, then went lame and required shoes in the first week in Colorado.

Holly

EqTrainer

Jun. 21, 2006, 02:19 PM

Jun. 21, 2006, 02:35 PM

Why on earth would that be? Because of weather/footing? I thought "out west" is where all the mustang models came from with the perfect feet.
If CO in general is anything like where my CO friends live, it's like So. Cal - no land for turnout. Horses are kept in stalls, lucky to have an attached 12x12 run-in. Their exercise is to be ridden or, if they are lucky, to be turned out in an unused ring for 30 minutes a day. Lack of movement often leads to feet that just cannot be worked without shoes.

Is there something about the hay/grass there? Not enough selenium? Too much? High copper, not enough copper therefore not enough iron?

Petalstorm

Jun. 21, 2006, 04:17 PM

Su Valley

Jun. 21, 2006, 04:48 PM

Could we elaborate on this further? I don't want to hijack the thread, but I think that this is an important topic and might shed some light on what others might experience with their horses.

First, if you could claify what you mean in your description of the bars. It sounds like you are describing bars that are covered with sole so that they are only visable as something under the sole...or possibly under an overgrown frog? Not really uunderstanding you on this.

Also what do you mean by "with a faint line showing the compression" :confused:

Oh, and is your horse dx navicular? If so how? And has it gone sound yet...or was it not lame to begin with? Hope I didn't miss any of this in a previous post...if so, forgive me.

Sorry for the bother, but I think we could all learn from further discussion of this case. It sounds very interesting. Thanks.....:)

slb, hiya!

Ok here is the background for you:

Heavy bodied stallion, pretty much idle. I have been using the farrier with the best reputation since he arrived in state, but this has not turned out to be a "good thing"

I have photographs, digitals, on my computor here, if you would like to see them. I don't have an online place to put them, sorry ;)

But the gist was: When my horse was trimmed in January (I was not able to be there due to work constraints) I was left with a really bad four point. His legs had swellings on all four cannons and he was uncomfortable. It took me a while to find someone to try and correct the situation, as we don't have many farriers here in the first place. What bothered me the most, is that my formerly upright hoof, had changed into something totally different. I had been on an 8 week trim schedule, regular as clockwork, for over five years. Over this time, my horse had gradually gotten "stiffer" and he began exhibiting slight swellings on the cannon last year (I know, I know, I am a HORRIBLE owner :()

Anyhow I can email you a bunch of pics...forwards from the gal who is doing the barefoot, if you like. Feel free to post them here too.

beep@mtaonline.net

Aptor Hours

Jun. 21, 2006, 06:13 PM

We had an older horse that foundered and the farrier put the shoes on backwards. He returned to full soundness although we never did X-rays it was obvious he was in no pain. The taught several older people to canter and even went barefoot again in the last year or two of his life. He passed away at 28 only because of rare complications to his West Nile Virus shot.

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 06:32 PM

What is it about Colorado? Extreme dry environment, hard hard hard hard hard hard ground, perhaps lifestyle, as noted. Rocks, schmocks. I don't know.

Who has to be in CO to find those conditions? I live in Western NC and right now my area is dealing with a moderate drought. My pastures were not lush to begin with and now it's only the weeds that make it look green and the grassy areas or clover are burned up and brown. With so little rain my pastures are hard, x5 also. Are my horses and ponies lame? No. Do they need shoes to gallop in this pasture across the rocks and hard pack dirt? No. Are they lame doing so? No. I do have some that have never had shoes in their life. The breeds vary so there's nothing to suggest it's because they're of a certain breed. Their colors vary so there's nothing to suggest it's because they have dark, striped or white hooves. Ponies are said to have harder hooves but when hooves are dried out, they're all hard in my herd. ;) People ask how I manage to find horses with good feet. Well, not all of them had good hooves when I first got them.

This past winter was exceptionally wet. Everything was either mud or somewhat dry where drainage was good. Feet remained good. They were much easier to trim having more moisture in them but they didn't fall apart.

I don't know why your horses couldn't remain barefoot other than you figured they needed shoes. Did you ever wonder about their hoof form. Form goes with function. This is what makes barefooting so interesting to me...figuring out what hooves need to function leaving shoes as a last resort if it is even an option.

Tree

Tree

Jun. 21, 2006, 06:40 PM

I was told that it is because of our mile high altitude and it's relation to blood flow into the foot.
While the amount of blood flowing into the foot is the same at different altitudes, the amount of oxygen the blood is carrying is about 20% less for every mile in altitude. Some people in Colorado use isoxsuprine prophylactically for this reason, not just for horses diagnosed with foot issues.

Do they pull blood and test it to prove this beyond a doubt?

Off the top of my head, people can be exposed to altitude changes and beyond the extremes (like mountain climbers), can adapt with some time. Wouldn't horses be capable of doing the same?

If there isn't enough oxygen in the blood, what other metabolic issues could be lurking? Hooves are a product of protein. While they do require blood, that tends to relate more to growth. The hooves in your pic showed no abnomalies linked to limited oxygen...if there IS such a thing. I saw it more related to hoof form needing some tweaking for better function.

Tree

LarkspurCO

Jun. 21, 2006, 10:38 PM

Do you think it could be something else in the environment? Any speculations at all?

Personally, I think it is just the extremely dry hard ground. Not that there aren't barefoot horses here, but just not as many can handle it. Regarding the "thin air" theory, I think it's a bunch of hooey. JMHO.

Tree, it was not I who decided my horses needed shoes. They did. Your supposition is presumptuous at best, insulting at worst. I'll go with the former, since I believe your intentions are good, but I respectfully agree to disagree.

Holly

Spoilsport

Jun. 22, 2006, 08:16 AM

We had an older horse that foundered and the farrier put the shoes on backwards. He returned to full soundness although we never did X-rays it was obvious he was in no pain.

I had the same experience with an older show horse that was dx'd with laminitis and Cushings. He returned to soundness very quickly and went on to be ridden until he died of heart problems at the age of 30.

I've also have worked with two younger horses dx'd with navicular that continued to lead long full productive lives with corrective shoeing and ixosuprene.

My preference is to keep a horse barefoot, as long as possible, and forever if possible. It isn't always possible. Pain relief and palliation are an important concept in human and animal medicine. A horse doen't care what it's x-rays show or if it is cured in human terms. It wants to be pain free and able to do what horses do. If barefoot helps, that's great. If shoes help, what's wrong with that? (That is a rhetorical question only. )

Auventera Two

Jun. 22, 2006, 09:24 AM

Personally, I think it is just the extremely dry hard ground. Not that there aren't barefoot horses here, but just not as many can handle it. Regarding the "thin air" theory, I think it's a bunch of hooey. JMHO.

I found the opposite to be true with my horses. They are fine on dry hard ground, but as soon as we had 10 days of rain they got fungusy frogs and mushy soles. My mare had to wear boots to ride on gravel when previously she had been just fine on gravel.

I've always heard that dry hard ground is much better and healthier for the feet than wet swampy ground. Interesting conversation.

And again I would ask about mustangs. They have the ideal foot and are sound on everything, and they live on dry hard ground and rocks, from what I understand. I know that not all wild horses live out west, and the ones that live on soft, wet ground do have feet that more flared and chipped/cracked than horses that live out west.`

Tree

Jun. 22, 2006, 10:58 AM

Tree, it was not I who decided my horses needed shoes. They did. Your supposition is presumptuous at best, insulting at worst. I'll go with the former, since I believe your intentions are good, but I respectfully agree to disagree.

Holly

Thanks for the benefit of a doubt. I rarely resort to insults because it's so counter productive. With written words and icons, intent can't always be expressed sufficiently. If I wink, some people think it's some sort of evil hex. If I use a <g>, some think it's a smirk.

Atleast we agree about the oxygenated blood deal in high altitudes causing hoof issues. :D

Tree

Lookout

Jun. 22, 2006, 11:01 AM

I've always heard that dry hard ground is much better and healthier for the feet than wet swampy ground. Interesting conversation.

And again I would ask about mustangs. They have the ideal foot

Mustangs have the ideal foot for their terrain, because their feet have adapted to their terrain. The ideal foot is the one that works on the terrain it lives on. Horses can and do adapt to wet, swampy ground too. Just look at the Camargue horses. To say horses can't adjust to hard, rocky ground shows a lack of knowledge of the horse's foot and its adaptation capabilities.

draft_farrier

Jun. 22, 2006, 11:46 AM

Ok, serious question here.
You'll get a serious and HONEST, common sense (to me) answer, based on many years of practical working experience, in which, I have taken shod horse to barefoot, and barefoot horse to shod....in EVERY CASE, the animal was sound, and working AFTER I was done, and the owner satisfied with my work.

Let's say you did this with this horse. Based solely on what you see here and know from the OP, what would be the start of your game plan?

Rule #1 in my book......make the horse pain free and servicable in the quickest amount of time. If that means that I have to nail a set of dinner plates on to make it happen, I will. Based on the limited info I have and based on YEARS of experience as a farrier and vet assistant, I would trim the horse balanced, apply a set of wide-webbed shoes, perhaps even a set of NB shoes, becasue the horse has already demonstrated to me that it cannot handle being barefoot. Once a horse GETS sore, it's hard as hell to get him sound. Putting shoes on the foot protects it, and allows the horse to be removed from the pain. Depending on what I see and FEEL on the foot, I may even use Vettec to fill in the bottom of the foot with their padding material. What allot of folks don't realize is, horses are prone to get into the viscious cycle of, my foot hurts...I'm sore and depressed.....that makes my foot hurt more.....I am more depressed...my foot hurts more.....etc etc etc. Remove the pain, the horse feels better, and when he feels better, he doesn't "worry" about the pain of walking, so life is better. Hell, I've seen horses feel fall off from the stress of an injury or a colic. Horses can stress(worry) themselves right into a grave. As a very experienced draft farrier who mentored me said......"damn horses are BORN looking for a place to die......."

Would you, after say 3 re-sets of the shoe, take them off and see what happened?
I may take them off after one. Depends on what I see the foot doing. I may wait until it gets rainy and the ground gets soft, and take them off then. No two horses are alike, and no single methodology works the same for every horse. That is why farriery is so hard to teach, and even harder to test....there is NO SINGLE ANSWER to any given problem. Knowledge from booksonly gets you so far....knowledge from experience takes you all the way......experience trumps book smarts MOST of the time.

If the trim wasn't right to begin with
It'll be right when I'm done.

and didn't change during the shod period
See previous answer.

I'd think the horse would be even more sore to be barefoot again
You'd be right if I screwed up the trim.....but I don't ! I learned LOOOONG ago.....the most important part of the shoeing process is......THE TRIM

If the trim wasn't right to begin with, but along with you putting shoes on you also fixed the trim, and the horse becomes sound, would you (and the OP?) then say "See, horse needed shoes to get and stay sound"?
Only if I was stupid...which I am not. Shoes are not the "panacea" of the equine world. They are a tool or a method to achieve a given standard.

Or would you be aware of the possibility that your changes to the trim were actually the only reason the horse was sound and then take the shoes off? Would you even recommend taking the shoes off again if the horse was now sound?
Only an idiot thinks shoes fix EVERYTHING...much like the idiots who think that NO horses NEED shoes.......

I've been very successful in my farrier work...I've been around long enough to know that SOME horses NEED shoes....period. I don't always know why, I just know that some do. I also know that sometimes shoes will help while I get the foot back into balance and alignment (bony column, that is). I've also been keeping horses barefoot LOOOONG before the AAHNCP came into being. Barefoot is NOT a new method......it's just a new FAD.

I'm honestly curious how you might go about the game plan to figure out what was wrong, why it's (seemingly) right now, etc.
I rely on years of farrier experience, I seek out the owners help, vet help, and between the 3 of us(and anyone else who I think mught be able to help), we always get the horse comfortable by whatever means we deem fitting....be it shoes, or barefoot. My cell phone is full of other farriers numbers. I have no problem asking for help/ideas. As for finding out WHAT was/is wrong.....sometimes you can't. Sometimes, it takes a necropsy to find out what was wrong.

Look folks, it's really simple. A comfortable horse is (generally) a healthy horse. Why make the horse wallow around for months/years on end while you "figure" out how high the bars should be, or how "concave" the sole needs to be. Geez...I've got a BUNCH of Belgians who are as flat-footed as the top of Herman Munsters head.....and they are not at all sore....a foot DOES NOT NEED to be concave to be barefoot. IMHO, a farriers(trimmers) FIRST responsibility is TO THE HORSE. Make him(her) as comfortable and pain-free as possible as quick as possible, by whatever means necessary. If that can be done barefoot, then DO IT barefoot. If it needs to be done by applying shoes, DO IT. If boots are in order, DO IT. But I just can't swallow this idea of allowing a horse to be sore for the sake of being barefoot, and relying on bute or occasional boots when he's "really sore" to get by. To me, it's just plain stupid, and inhumane. That horse is DEPENDANT on us as owners/farriers/trimmers to make it's life good. When we, as professionals, CLOSE OUR MIND to alternatives in hoof care, we are letting the horse down.
I'm not against barefoot, hell, Ive been doing it as long as I've been around horses, I am against those that come out here and spew NON-PROVEN jibberish against shoes, thereby convincing gullable owners to yank of those shoes, which, in allot of cases causes more pain and damage than the shoes ever could. Shoes are no more of a "band-aid" than a tourniqet is to an amputated leg.

We can argue ad infintem about the effects of poor farriery in the application of shoes, but that is a case of human failings, NOT that shoes are bad.

Some horse NEED shoes.....some don't. It really is that simple.

draft_farrier

Jun. 22, 2006, 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by draft_farrier
Once a horse GETS sore, it's hard as hell to get him sound.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Last year my mare was so freakin sore I had put hay down on the concrete for her to walk on just to get her down the barn aisle and to her soft stall after the farrier pulled her shoes. Within a week or so she was 100% better and she's been barefoot ever since. This is only one instance I could tell you of a very sore or lame horse becoming sound again with minimal effort.

I TOO can recount the EXTREMELY sore draft horse that was dying in my sand pit, because he was so sore. He had been ridden on asphalt without shoes so much, that his foot was SEVERLY bruised and worn on the bottom. He was laying down 16-18 hours a day. I ended up forging a shoe that just barely fit the perimiter of his foot. I then used Vettec SuperFast to build "extensions to his foot, then proceeded to glue the shoe to the extensions. I filled the bottom of the shoes with impression material and Vettec pad. He lived, but I guarantee, he would have died, had I not done what I did. No trimmer only( that is, trimmer with no forging experience) in the world could have done what I did, without the forging skills I have as a farrier....it's real tough to forge a shoe if the only tools you can use are nippers, knife and a rasp. In a perfect world, even trimmers should be at least trained as a farrier, so they have KNOWLEDGE that might be needed in a pinch to save a horses life. I can also recount dozens and dozens of horses that I've removed poorly applied shoes on, trimmed according to the horses needs/conformation, and the horse trotted off happy and sound.

Instead of treating symptoms year after year, how about looking for the root of the problem and fixing it?
Cheap shot. I neither said NOR implied shoeing "year after year". If you would read my ENTIRE post in context AND for comprehension, you would understand what I am trying to say. YOU said "year after year"...not me.

And this would be a prime reason to get to the ROOT OF THE PROBLEM instead of putting a bandaid on the symptoms year after year.
Again, if you read the ENTIRE POST in context, you should be able to see that what I advocate is IMMEDIATE relief of pain, THEN try and find the problem(i.e. ROOT OF THE PROBLEM). What is better....horse lame for a year while I figure out what is going on, or horse comfortable while I figure out what is wrong??? What if the "ROOT OF THE PROBLEM" cannot be determined???? How long do we make the horse suffer???? What is the magic number here????? Even if you disagree, can you NOT see the logic there???

But you do have to admit that some farriers just have no clue how to trim a foot to succeed barefoot

No doubt, as, apparently there are trimmers in the same boat. I've got a Clydesdale at my farm now, who had been cared for by a trimmer.....damn near crippled the horse. He was so sore, he wouldn't graze, he lost 300 lbs.He's in shoes/pads and hanging out with one of my young ones.

Would you keep a tourniquet on an amputated leg for 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?
Again, a cheap shot at twisting my words into something you can use to make me look wrong/bad. I NEVER used nor implied any timetable to any methodology. Instead of trying to twist my words, try for a change, reading EXACTLY what I wrote, with no implied message. Quit trying so hard to put me down, and try OPENING YOUR MIND to another perspective. Whether it is right or wrong(in you mind), OPEN your mind. It is possible....that I am right...even though I am a farrier AND a man, it IS possible:)

But how do you determine the ones that really NEED them, YEARS and YEARS of REAL LIFE farrier experience with more than just one's own personal horses. So many people tell how they have had 25, 30, 35 years of expereince with horses, but when you get right down to brass tacks, those 25, 30, 35 years were 4 different horses....... I am looking at and working on horses EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR. Not a day goes by that I don't work on a horse....did 8 horses on Father's Day! After a decade or so, you get pretty good, IF (big IF there) you pay attention and keep up on your education.

Don't take what I write as personal....it's not, neither against you or anyone else here. It's one farriers outlook at our industry. As we evolve, and more $$$$ is put into understanding horses, we will learn new methodologies and continue to do what is best for the horse, which is, what I am all about. 20 years ago, a foundered horse who punched through was dead, period. Now, we are saving these guys on a regular basis..with SHOES, I might add( though not STEEL shoes). I have no "agenda". I don't advocate "shoes only"...nor do I advocate "barefoot only"......I advocate doing what is BEST FOR THE HORSE. If the horse is in pain, and I have the ability AND the technology to remediate it, I would be treating the horse inhumanly of I did not take advantage of that knowledge and ability....especially if it is for the "sake" of being barefoot. Am I infallable ??? Of course not, I make mistakes, like every other human on the face of our little rock. I learn from my mistakes AS WELL as the mistakes OTHER farriers/trimmers make. Where I differ from most is, #1, I LIKE working on drafts :), and, #2, I will, until the day I die, put the horses COMFORT FIRST. Relieve pain first, find cause next. If I can do both at the same time....life is better!

Tree

Jun. 22, 2006, 04:46 PM

As we evolve, and more $$$$ is put into understanding horses, we will learn new methodologies and continue to do what is best for the horse, which is, what I am all about.

What's best for the horse is what started me to stray from shoes and taking a harder look at the hooves. Some of the "new" methodologies aren't really new but old things resurfacing again, where it concerns hoof form, function and conditions which promote healthier developement and preservation of bone mass. So my path has taken me seemingly in an opposing direction since it is farther and farther away from shoes. I'm not sure how boots fit in other than as non-permanent hoof wear only because they aren't nailed or glued on, in my applications of them. They are an artificial aid also, like shoes. That's how "I" see it though.

I have only been trimming for 16 years now and full-time vs just "my own". I work for people who are like-minded in that they too want to work with the bare hooves. It's their decision if they decide to go back to shoes. I respect people's right to do what they think is best. Some 35 years ago my horse had shoes (all 4's) and because I lived in a mild climate, shoes stayed on year round. No snow or ice worries. I like that I know what I do now compared to the past. I like the challenge of working with difficult hooves and horses. I like being able to help people who want barefooted horses.

Tree

Auventera Two

Jun. 22, 2006, 07:29 PM

Again, if you read the ENTIRE POST in context, you should be able to see that what I advocate is IMMEDIATE relief of pain, THEN try and find the problem(i.e. ROOT OF THE PROBLEM). What is better....horse lame for a year while I figure out what is going on, or horse comfortable while I figure out what is wrong??? What if the "ROOT OF THE PROBLEM" cannot be determined???? How long do we make the horse suffer???? What is the magic number here????? Even if you disagree, can you NOT see the logic there???
Nailing shoes on would not be my frist choice of immediate pain relief. Getting the horse into a deeply padded soft stall and fitted with a set of boots with foam inserts, and possibly a gram of bute a day would be my first choice for immediate pain relief. I think that putting shoes on would hinder the long term rehabilitation of the foot. But that's just my opinion.

Quit trying so hard to put me down, and try OPENING YOUR MIND to another perspective. Whether it is right or wrong(in you mind), OPEN your mind. It is possible....that I am right...even though I am a farrier AND a man, it IS possible:)
Not sure where you got the idea that I cannot listen to you because you are a "man" ??? Sorry but you will NEVER find such a claim to be true in my life. But...whatever.

Anyway - I have never said that shoes are evil, and nor do I have a closed mind. However, I personally would like to see people explore as many alternative options as possible BEFORE considering shoes. But if people are not able to devote the resources to making the horse's barefoot endeavor successful, then they simply aren't able to. There's nothing anyone can do about that. Each person has to make the choice that works best in their situation.

If the horse is in pain, and I have the ability AND the technology to remediate it, I would be treating the horse inhumanly of I did not take advantage of that knowledge and ability....especially if it is for the "sake" of being barefoot.
I agree completely. I however happen to believe that the technology of choice would be boots, not nail on shoes.

Please do NOT assume that barefoot people are happy to watch their horse wallow around in pain for 6 months. Boots are an integral part of the healing and rehabilitation process, as is proper footing in the horse's environment.

Of the 6 or so barefoot trimmers I have studied over the last few months (yes, only months), I have found that they adimantly stress the importance of booting the horse with foam inserts to provide as much comfort as possible as the soles strengthen and thicken. I have NEVER read or heard one reference to working the horse while he is in pain, forcing him to go on harsh ground when he is pain, or any other form of ignoring the horse's needs.

Jun. 22, 2006, 07:38 PM

Not sure where you got the idea that I cannot listen to you because you are a "man" ???

He never said you weren't listening because he was a man. He said it's possible that even though he's a man he might be right ;)
It is possible....that I am right...even though I am a farrier AND a man

Draft Farrier, thanks for the reply :) I'm not sure I agree with putting shoes on as THE way to relieve the pain while you search for the root cause, but if that's what you would choose, that's cool :)

Lookout

Jun. 22, 2006, 08:08 PM

Rule #1 in my book......make the horse pain free and servicable in the quickest amount of time...
I guess some people are satisfied with 'serviceable' and some want sound, healthy horses.

because the horse has already demonstrated to me that it cannot handle being barefoot.
How has he demonstrated this to you? With this bad barefoot trim he's got? Or do you think it's good? Why does a horse with a bad trim "need" shoes?

The analogy of taking tylenol for a brain tumor is no cheap shot, it is a dead on bullseye to how shoes mask problems. Or, do you know of any studies where steel on the bottom of the foot has shown to have healed anything, soft tissue, bone, anything, in the foot?

Tree

Jun. 23, 2006, 07:30 AM

Dysfunctional bare hooves will stay that way whether a shoe or a boot or foam padding are applied if the hoof form isn't changed. Adding a shoe does alter hoof function and so does padding up or filling the sole with foam pads. Depending on the boot design, they can too. So to me, shoeing a lame barefooted horse and it appearing to be sound (or pain-free), is linked to how those alter hoof function and as it pertains to blood circulation. After all, depending upon how deformed the hoof capsule is, they were made to expand when weighted. Shoes are applied while hooves are unweighted and so they fix the hoof in its most contracted state. The nails will not allow the hoof to expand once weighted. The heels will try but the last nails are placed at the widest part of the foot, as it was unweighted. Even the widest part of the hoof expands some when weighted. So to think that the rest of the caudal areas of that foot can continue to do its function is very misleading when the hoof acts as a whole.

Boots can be secured with the horse standing on the booted foot. And it shouldn't be assumed that soft footing or deep bedding is the solution for a lame horse either. Soft footing isn't ideal for hoof health or stalled and sandy terrain horses should have the healthiest feet of all. They don't and it's due to those surfaces not providing a stable base beneath their feet. With deep footing hooves will not be level...the toes tend to drop down. If that were so ideal for a horse's structures then the big lick TWH's would have it made but that's not true either.

Pain means something and I believe it's important to find the source and the cause or causes that create it. To say a horse is lame on some surfaces and not on others would seem to indicate the differences between how these surfaces affect hoof function. It relates to hoof form and that what I will examine. When I find areas of the foot which appear to be responsible I can address them and set the foot down to see how the horse reacts. Horses are quite honest and aware of what they can feel. It's their ability to feel that is so important. It's important that I understand how a hoof should function too. Observing how a lame horse's hoof or hooves function before I start working on the them is part of figuring out what's going on. I don't want to tape foam pads on a horse or have it shod because that would further interfere with hoof function.

For now I'm still dealing with a back injury. The pain prevented me from working. To try to remove the pain without knowing what was causing it would likely turn me into a cripple permenantly because I chose to ignore what my body was telling me....stop! Pain in a horse's foot or feet is also a signal to pay attention to vs mask or hide.

To use methods that would continue to mask or hide ongoing issues from a horse or human doesn't seem like the wisest choice to me. By the time the pain can no longer be managed the damage done will be worse than before and harder to treat if there is anything that can be done at all.

Tree

Auventera Two

Jun. 23, 2006, 08:05 AM

You made some great points Tree. A little over a year ago I was gearing up for endurance with my mare. We were doing about 40 miles a week and having a great time but after just the first ride she was very very sore. I had the farrier put 4 shoes on her and then she went just great. She wore shoes the rest of the season and I thought everything was great until she started getting sore and lame even with the shoes on. She was grumpy and stiff and her hocks puffed up with heat, etc. Long story short - I didn't know tiddly winks about hooves and as it turns out her feet were very unbalanced with underrun heels, puny frogs, and long toes. She was pounding on her toes and never weighting the back of the foot. Well, a horse can only do so many miles that way before something breaks down.

I just cringe now to look at the first set of shoes the farrier pulled off her. After just 5 weeks, the toes of the front shoes are worn so thin I could have snapped them in two, but the heels of the shoes look untouched. :no: Well gee, what does THAT tell me about how her feet were landing???

So I managed to get by for a whole season with the bandaids on but eventually the poor hoof form underneath the shoes won and I had to start digging into WHY this all happened. And I guess that's why I'm here today. After a while you just figure out that there's more outside your little box and you want to find out what it is.

All the shoes in the world couldn't have fixed her poor hoof form and function. But again, I don't necessarily think shoes are evil but I do think that sometimes people use them improperly and think they're fixing a problem when they're not. Like I did.

Tree

Jun. 23, 2006, 09:45 AM

So I managed to get by for a whole season with the bandaids on but eventually the poor hoof form underneath the shoes won and I had to start digging into WHY this all happened. And I guess that's why I'm here today. After a while you just figure out that there's more outside your little box and you want to find out what it is.

All the shoes in the world couldn't have fixed her poor hoof form and function. But again, I don't necessarily think shoes are evil but I do think that sometimes people use them improperly and think they're fixing a problem when they're not. Like I did.

You know, the shoes being worn thin are what can be used to try to support the idea that shoes protect the hooves. I mean, just think what the bare toes would've been like had the shoes not been there to be worn so thin. But you're right, it had to do with how those hooves were LANDING....toe-first. A balanced landing would have provided wear to more of the shoe underside. The toe area can still wear more but extremes wear in isolated areas would seem to indicate a problem.

But getting to the portions of your post I quoted above, one of my clients' distance horses was coming up with back soreness. Turns out the hinds were being left inside high and the shoes fixed them in that form. Winter came along and the shoes were pulled to allow the hooves to "rest" until the next season. Well I started trimming this horse and found the imbalances in the hinds amoung some bar issues and trimmed accordingly. The following day the client rode this horse to see how it would do and it was already moving better. This year she's competing without shoes although it wasn't planned. She was so pleased with how well the horse was doing she felt it was worth a try. If the going is too much for her horse's feet she uses boots. This has resulted in a couple of wins, 3rds and finishes in the top 10. No more pulls due to back soreness so far.

I think I've gone from one box to another as there is still a division between what I do now and what I'd been doing before. So if people want to talk about "boxes", I just have to kind of giggle. I do like the current box I'm 'in'.

I agree that shoes aren't evil. The "evil" part probably is linked to improper use and that would include covering up problems and suggesting they're treated. I wish more people could afford to use them on a "as per needed" basis vs making them a permanent fixture. However, that can become quite expensive in addition to demanding more time of the Farrier. Who has a Farrier that is Johnny-on-the-spot for every need? Heck, even having a spouse who shoes doesn't mean your own horses will get that sort of attention. ;)

Tree

LarkspurCO

Jun. 23, 2006, 02:38 PM

To say horses can't adjust to hard, rocky ground shows a lack of knowledge of the horse's foot and its adaptation capabilities.

... and to say this shows misunderstanding of the conditions about which I speak, as well as misunderstanding of my original statement. But, as I said, I didn't expect people to believe it.

Another point, if anyone still cares, when I said "dry" I didn't just mean dry ground. I meant very low ambient humidity. Humidity so low your skin peels and your feet and hands crack and your once curly hair goes straight and your nose bleeds. The lack of humidity that gives your face that "Marlboro Man" character after awhile.

I am always amused when people say a horse has only to be given time to adapt. How many years of pain are required? How many bruises? How many abscesses? I would like to know just exactly how much pain and suffering is required to achieve this "soundness." Perhaps you could enlighten me.

I oftent wonder... when people say a horse is sound, what do they mean? Do they mean not limping? How many people really know a lame horse when they see one? How many can recognize a shortened stride, a subtle lack of flexion, a mild resistance to the left-lead canter cue, etc.? How many have ridden for years and not known the difference?

Does being sound mean the horse reaches its fullest athletic potential? Does being sound mean your horse won't be whistled out of a dressage test? Does being sound mean the clinician won't refuse to teach you, and the money you put down for an hour with a master doesn't get flushed down the toilet?

Let's say your trainer complains and complains that your barefoot horse looks like his feet hurt. You finally put him to work after several years of leisurely riding, and now the horse is not happy to do the lessons, will not relax his back, won't arch his neck and use his hind end, won't take his leads, etc. Finally, you break down and say, "Okay, let's try a set of shoes and see."

Suddenly, magically, his stride length increases by 25-30 percent, he stops fighting and goes to work willingly and happily, goes round and balanced, takes his leads and does his job so much better that even a lay person can tell the difference. Now would you say he is more sound or less sound with the shoes?

Or did he just not suffer long enough barefoot to attain this?

Holly

Auventera Two

Jun. 23, 2006, 03:32 PM

Let's say your trainer complains and complains that your barefoot horse looks like his feet hurt. You finally put him to work after several years of leisurely riding, and now the horse is not happy to do the lessons, will not relax his back, won't arch his neck and use his hind end, won't take his leads, etc. Finally, you break down and say, "Okay, let's try a set of shoes and see."

Suddenly, magically, his stride length increases by 25-30 percent, he stops fighting and goes to work willingly and happily, goes round and balanced, takes his leads and does his job so much better that even a lay person can tell the difference. Now would you say he is more sound or less sound with the shoes?

Or did he just not suffer long enough barefoot to attain this?

Holly

Hmmm. I think there's a great conversation lurking here somewhere. Your analogy seems to tell me that the horse isn't necessarily more "sound" but rather the shoes are elevating his feet off the ground and protecting them from pain. There's a big difference.

I myself have very flat feet and plantar fascitis and wore orthodics for a long time as a kid. With the orthodics and tennis shoes on, I was very comfortable. I could walk the dog, go to school, etc. But barefoot, the tendons in my feet stretched so much and failed to support my feet to the point I would hobble around. I wouldn't say that I was "sound" or healed with the orthodics on. I would only say they were changing my foot function to make me more comfortable. The orthodics physically lifted my arches up and held all the structures in place for me.

But now I don't wear anything in my shoes because over the years I just walked barefoot more and more until the tendons stretched out and got stronger and longer and my body adjusted. So I would say that NOW I am sound, healed, whatever else you want to call it because I dont require the orthodics anymore.

So I would tend to think that a truly sound horse would be one who was comfortable and workable without shoes. I think there is definitely a difference between a sound horse, and a horse sound with shoes on. And I think soundness has more to do with the whole body than just the feet alone.

Again I'll say that shoes are not evil. As people have pointed out many times on this forum - sometimes the horse's owner is not capable of providing the proper environment, trimming, or otherwise to allow the horse to be successfully barefoot. In such a situation it would be better for the horse to be shod than to be miserable. But in an ideal world we would all strive for the ideal situation for the horse where barefoot would be possible and comfortable.

LarkspurCO

Jun. 23, 2006, 11:14 PM

So I guess you're saying you would be comfortable walking barefoot on gravel?

This analogy is about as practical as yours.

I have no problem with your definition. But in reality, not all horses are capable of being sound barefoot. Therein lies the controversy.

Cheers!

luvmytbs

Jun. 24, 2006, 10:19 AM

So I guess you're saying you would be comfortable walking barefoot on gravel?

Yes, if you condition your feet to do that.

In India for instance, a lot of people are too poor to afford shoes. They walk barefoot on roads, dirt as well as gravel.

There are also those folks, which I am sure you have seen on TV, who walk barefoot on top of nails sticking up as well as hot coals. They have conditioned their feet to do so.

Tree

Jun. 24, 2006, 12:28 PM

While we're on the subject of conditioning bare feet.

I am a tenderfoot on the sharp gravel that covers our parking area and driveway. I can comfortably walk on wide river stones though. They are both hard but the sharp edged gravel would hurt my tender feet whereas a smooth river stone, of the right size, would not. I could better handle a fairly thick layer of pea-sized gravel barefooted vs the same size gravel scattered thinly across concrete or packed dirt.

So it depends on the footing and feet conditions.

Tree

LarkspurCO

Jun. 25, 2006, 07:13 PM

Yes, if you condition your feet to do that.

In India for instance, a lot of people are too poor to afford shoes. They walk barefoot on roads, dirt as well as gravel.

... which is why as soon as they can afford shoes, they buy them!

These tough-soled folks would not be competitive in an Olympic hurdles race, a triathlon, marathon (who runs marathons barefoot anymore?) or professional baseball. After all, the athletic shoe provides support, traction and protection. Protection not only for the sole but for the entire foot and, sometimes, ankle.

I've seen those hot coal and nail-walkers. They lie upon a bed of nails, too. Not really a practical endeavor for most of us, but remarkable nonetheless. I've also seen those people who pierce themselves with scary objects, hang from hooks in their backs, and wear big plates in their lips.

I would venture to say, these "skills" are beyond the ability of most people. Anyway, I ain't gonna try. I like my nice soft bed and my tennies.

LarkspurCO

Jun. 25, 2006, 07:21 PM

I can comfortably walk on wide river stones though. They are both hard but the sharp edged gravel would hurt my tender feet whereas a smooth river stone, of the right size, would not. I could better handle a fairly thick layer of pea-sized gravel barefooted vs the same size gravel scattered thinly across concrete or packed dirt.

So it depends on the footing and feet conditions.

Yes, I totally agree. It depends.

Tree, I just love to walk on smooth river rocks. There's a beach on Cape Cod with these round rocks in the water that gives the most wonderful "hurts so good" foot massage.

When we were kids my sister and I ran around barefoot everywhere all summer long. Our soles were thick, black and calloused. We ran around on the pavement and in fields and woods and played in the creek barefoot.

I still remember the dread of crossing the sizzling hot street. I would race across on my toes saying "ouch ouch ouch" all the way. And I did suffer the occasional thorn or broken glass injury.

Holly

seal

Jun. 25, 2006, 08:06 PM

...
Suddenly, magically, his stride length increases by 25-30 percent, he stops fighting and goes to work willingly and happily, goes round and balanced, takes his leads and does his job so much better that even a lay person can tell the difference. Now would you say he is more sound or less sound with the shoes?
Holly

A lot depends upon the trim. And until said horse is 100% comfortable barefoot, there ARE hoof boots. My poor horse had his feet hacked off last month, yet he is perectly happy in hoof boot and pads.

LarkspurCO

Jun. 26, 2006, 06:49 PM

First, a horse cannot wear hoof boots 24 hours a day.

Second, everyone seems to me missing the point. I give up!

Third, what do you mean your horse had his hooves "hacked off"? Yikes!

rhymeswithfizz

Jun. 30, 2006, 10:25 AM

We live in a suburb of Denver, Colorado. Does anyone know of a trimmer that can fix my poor horse?

YES!

I swear by Craig Quinn of Castle Rock, who does both barefoot trims and is the best corrective shoer in the state, by my vet's opinion. Both my horses are barefoot, one retired with navicular issues, the other one a competing hunter. You can reach him at 303-814-9633

rhymeswithfizz

Jun. 30, 2006, 10:52 AM

Oh also, I must totally second LarkspurCO's comments about the extreme conditions that Colorado has. She is absolutely accurate - it is a desert climate, and if you don't live here, it's difficult to perceive. It is quite normal here for ground to be baked to the consistency of concrete all summer long. Would you expect your barefoot horse to be sound on concrete 24/7?

The only way that I am able to keep my jumping horse barefoot is to be very, very careful that he does not spend much time on hard ground. He lives, is ridden, and turned out in areas with soft sandy conditioned footing only.

My arthritic, navicular horse is not sound with or without shoes on the hard ground, but he's a retired pasture potato.

Larbear

Jun. 30, 2006, 11:23 AM

Would you expect your barefoot horse to be sound on concrete 24/7? .

Could ask the same question for a horse that is shod...

The only way that I am able to keep my jumping horse barefoot is to be very, very careful that he does not spend much time on hard ground. He lives, is ridden, and turned out in areas with soft sandy conditioned footing only..

Well, they're going to be comfortable on the footing that the spend most of the time on. If you want to ride on harder/harsher surfaces, you need to condition for it.

LarkspurCO

Jun. 30, 2006, 12:06 PM

If you want to ride on harder/harsher surfaces, you need to condition for it.

Could you describe this conditioning program specifically and supply prove that it works for every horse? Didn't think so.

One of problems with arguing back and forth about whether a horse is or isn't able to go barefoot is this: There is absolutely no way to prove it. There never will be. The concept is merely a theory, supported in some cases by anecdotal evidence, but still just a theory. And you cannot prove it.

The other issue I have with the barefoot-for-all-and-barefoot-only philosophy is the notion that hooves are the only part of the equine anatomy not subject to genetic influences. How did the hooves achieve this exemption?

Holly

rhymeswithfizz

Jun. 30, 2006, 12:30 PM

Well, they're going to be comfortable on the footing that the spend most of the time on. If you want to ride on harder/harsher surfaces, you need to condition for it.

I too would like to see this conditioning program.

People keep bringing up the old mustangs-can-do-it-why-can't every-horse argument, but nobody seems to remember that mustangs had hundreds of years of survival-of-the-fittest in action, which allowed nature to kill off those horses with less than perfect feet, allowing only those who were sound enough to outrun their predators to survive and procreate.

I suppose there is a conditioning program for you! LOL

My OTTB was bred for speed, not a strong hoof wall. I believe that my farrier and I have made the best of what god gave my horse. To attempt to "condition" his foot to our hard ground would be madness - I am thrilled that he can be kept barefoot in sand.

And again, I agree with Larkspur's comments that hooves and hoof quality are not exempt from genetics! We can only work with what we have, and the conditions that we live in.

Appassionato

Jun. 30, 2006, 12:41 PM

Jingles for you from middle GA!

Pippigirl

Jul. 1, 2006, 08:10 AM

I suppose there is a conditioning program for you! LOL

My OTTB was bred for speed, not a strong hoof wall. I believe that my farrier and I have made the best of what god gave my horse. To attempt to "condition" his foot to our hard ground would be madness - I am thrilled that he can be kept barefoot in sand.

And again, I agree with Larkspur's comments that hooves and hoof quality are not exempt from genetics! We can only work with what we have, and the conditions that we live in.

There sure is conditioning program. It does involve some dedicated time on your part so not many people wish to spend time doing it. Handwalking on pavement building up to RIDING on pavement, handwalking in sand....take the time to look this stuff up. It's out there. LOL! To save you some time....check this book out by K.C. Lapierre, The Chosen Road, or Pete Ramey (to name A FEW). Spend some time Googling, it's out there.

My tb mare was bred from racing stock. Because she is barefoot, and walks on the roads and all, her hoof wall is encouraged to grow in thicker. If she had shoes on...they'd be wafer thin too. The sole at the toe would be thinned out too to put the shoe on...so, if she was trimmed for a shoe...it would make it hard for her to suddenly go barefoot.

Don't be afraid to think outside the box, stray from 'the herd' once in awhile.

LarkspurCO

Jul. 1, 2006, 10:50 AM

Hey, Pippigirl. I have both of these books and several others. And I have read all that stuff on the Internet.

KC La Pierre is a charlatan and his book is a piece of crap.

Furthermore, he claims to have a PhD and he does not. Why would you trust a liar?

By the way, your conditioning program leaves much to be desired. My horse told me so. :) I'm glad it worked for your horse, though.

Holly

LarkspurCO

Jul. 1, 2006, 10:55 AM

The sole at the toe would be thinned out too to put the shoe on...

'Scuse me?????

My farrier absolutely does NOT thin the sole ANYWHERE, especially not the toe.

He exfoliates only that part of the sole that flakes away easily. Sound familiar?

Holly

Pippigirl

Jul. 1, 2006, 11:55 AM

'Scuse me?????

My farrier absolutely does NOT thin the sole ANYWHERE, especially not the toe.

He exfoliates only that part of the sole that flakes away easily. Sound familiar?

Holly

Um...calm down now dearie. So, tell me then. If the sole is not allowed to exfoliate due to the shoe being there...what does he do for the build up of sole?

cartera45

Jul. 1, 2006, 12:15 PM

I was never a big LaPierre fan - and I find his wife to be downright rude - but I found his work in England with barefoot racers really interesting. Here is the website for the racing stable and it describes the facilities that were built to take the racehorses to barefoot. Edited to add that not all the horses there are barefoot so it is not an all or nothing proposition there.

http://www.simonearleracing.com/

LarkspurCO

Jul. 1, 2006, 02:52 PM

If the sole is not allowed to exfoliate due to the shoe being there...what does he do for the build up of sole?

My apologies if I came off as angry or "excited." I'm not excited. I'm just incredulous at your assumptions. They need an emoticon for that. :yes:

Your assertion that any given farrier would purposely thin the sole to fit a shoe is, in my opinion, naive. How could you know anything about my horse's farrier, the status of my horse's sole, or that of any of my farrier's other clients? Further, what makes you think the soles do not exfoliate? You have never seen any of these hooves. (Along that line, I have seen plenty of barefoot hooves who still had sole to exfoliate. Barefoot does not guarantee the sole will be free from exfoliant.)

This makes me wonder...how much time have you spent learning about what talented farriers do and why they do it? Ever ridden with a really gifted farrier?

Now, back to this conditioning program...

Walk the horse on pavement. Okay, what if the horse walks on hard ground every day of his life? Ground that is just as hard as any pavement, maybe sometimes harder?

Again, you make assumptions and assertions based on your own personal experience, and some books you read? Do you have extensive experience beyond this ANECDOTAL evidence? Anything other than what you read on the Internet?

:winkgrin: (See, still not excited.)

Holly

Pippigirl

Jul. 1, 2006, 04:50 PM

Well actually I do want the sole to exfoliate. Your horse can't really do that if he or she has the shoe on. I make no assumptions about conditioning btw. Unless I see pics of feet I do not make assumptions.

Your statements actually make me wonder how much time you spend learning what a farrier does. Maybe you should tell me what exactly your farrier does to your own horse's feet if you think I need to learn what a farrier does. Do tell. I'm curious how they balance out the feet without reall doing anything to the sole....

LarkspurCO

Jul. 1, 2006, 07:33 PM

Pippygirl, you're not making sense. Sorry, but this isn't worth my time.

Holly

Tree

Jul. 2, 2006, 09:21 AM

The other issue I have with the barefoot-for-all-and-barefoot-only philosophy is the notion that hooves are the only part of the equine anatomy not subject to genetic influences. How did the hooves achieve this exemption?Holly

That barefoot-for-all, etc., reminds me of something the 3 Muskateers used to say in their group huddle. ;) :D

Genetics gives horses hooves but how they develope will greatly depend up their environment. This goes for the whole horse as well. It isn't limited to the feet. When you stop to consider how some foals are micro-managed from day 1 and others are raised in more natural environments we're talking two extremes and this does affect how well they develope.

I exclude gene pools when it comes to issues hooves develope as a result of outside influences. The majority of hoof issues are linked to outside influences. I've yet to run across a foal having deformed hooves at birth. Maybe they're humanely destroyed at that time? I don't know. I meet plenty of horses who were normal at birth and developed hoof issues soon thereafter or years later.

Shoes became a "necessary evil" when horse management practices changed. Battle horses in the time of Alexander the Great and Xenophon were not shod nor where they coddled. Today's wild horses who live on harsh terrains provide the models which grace the books of Jaime Jackson, et al, and serve as a goal for natural hoof form along with the benefits of natural horse keeping practice adaptations which aim for what those wild horses have albeit the amount of land available to them to roam.

So at any rate, I tend to disregard genetics when it comes to dealing with hoof issues because they started off having what healthy footed horses had from birth. It was more a matter of how things went after day 1.

Tree