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View Full Version : Anyone want to watch Anky's World Cup Kur ride online?



Sonesta
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:14 PM
http://www.dressagemonthly.com/linktoankyvideo.html

MeredithTX
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:58 PM
Thanks for the link!

Auventera Two
Jun. 16, 2006, 03:14 PM
Anyone want to watch Anky's world cup kur ride?

Nope - can't say that I do. Sorry.

Funckyfilly
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:41 PM
You gotta hand it to her. It was a beautiful ride.

A. P.
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:58 PM
Actually, I didn;t think it was that beutiful a ride: to me the horse looked very cramped, and lacking in 'throughness', not to mention at least too small bucks I saw! technically correct, perhaps, but in my eyes lacking in expressiveness and fluidity of movement.

MeredithTX
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:59 PM
It was a beautiful ride, my only two complains (not that I could do better, I just noticed them!) were in the extended trot and the halt. I loved the front end action and reach of the extension, but I thought the back end lacked a little in the reach department. I was also disappointed that they were unable to immobilize either halt. However, I liked more about the ride than I disliked and it doesn't matter to me that I disagree personally with some of her methods - I still love to watch!

solargal
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:03 PM
I know this is just my eyes playing tricks, but does he look off on the right front at the walk or most likely I need glasses?

I don't do dressage or anything, but I do love to watch it, it is beautiful.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:40 PM
but does he look off on the right front at the walk or most likely I need glasses?
I would say arhythmic, especially in the extended walk but not off. I thought I needed glasses too, then I thought maybe it was the quality of the video on my machine, so I'm glad you saw it too.

professor
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:51 PM
I think that the boots of Anky didn't shine as normal :D

stuge
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:56 PM
I don't get it? I don't get how anyone can say that wasn't a beautiful ride? Perfect, no but noone is! I don't see an unhappy horse and I didn't see any bucks. I did see a couple of transitions that weren't as smooth as they could/should be and I didn't see a halt.

I just don't get it. I get that lots of people don't like rollkur but I don't see how they can say that wasn't a nice ride.

Jeepers
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:58 PM
I think that the boots of Anky didn't shine as normal :D

Well, that would be the fault of her groom :p Maybe she needs a groom that is more anal and detail oriented like me! :winkgrin: It's borderline OCD I swear...

Bats79
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:02 PM
Perhaps because people watching riding at this level want to see more than "technical correctness" or the judges version of it and more of the coming together of two partners to express the level and quality of their training in a co-operative and athletic partnership.

Which is more than "horse has been trained movements and rider can bring out the extravagence in the horses paces".

Which is why we "like" some rides that are obviously not going to win or place highly rather than others which are more technically demanding and have greater extravagance.

stuge
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:14 PM
Please point me to a video link if you can, of the kind of ride that you like, unlike AvG? I am not trying to start something but I just don't understand how you don't see a partnership? I hear such bitterness and I want to understand.

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:11 PM
in the stands at the end??

mbm
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:27 PM
well, i dont know.... i thought it was a very uninspiring ride. and salinerro looked very tired.

also, i think it was sabine who said that she was very grateful for the methods being used by some riders becuase it produces horses that are very bendable, supple etc.... but i did not see a laterally flexible/bendable/supple horse in this ride - in fact he looked board stiff. especially in the corners and HPs. and, he is markedly stiff on the left rein.

i did think the walk was better than most of the walks ive seen from them. she actually gave him a long rein without wide/low hands for a moment.

i guess that i dont see what happened in this ride that made it top scoring. is this score the best ever in the world??

and i did see some "errors", but since i hate that terminology being used in dressage then i wont go there. i will say that I have seen better rides.

tarragon
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:06 AM
Sannois, the "guy" at the end was Anky's husband and coach, Sjef Janssen.

Thank you, Sonesta, for posting the link :)

OakesBrae
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:21 AM
Actually - I think there's something funky going on in that right front too. I saw it in all gaits - and I can't put my finger on what it is - he may just be recovering from a stone bruise or something similar - but he's "less rythmic" at the walk than at the other gaits, where he's worse. Like I said - he may just be a hair off - and before anyone jumps all over me, I have routinely been a few days before the vet in detecting lameness (although...this was quite obvious).

It may also be his conformation. He appears to be very wide-breasted to a point of perhaps fault. I noticed in many gaits the legs did not land straight, but rather to each side.

I will not comment on the quality of Anky's ride - since she was obviously pleased by it. A few things I would change - but that is indeed armchair quarterbacking!

BornToRide
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:37 AM
You do all realize that a constantly swishing tail in a performance horse is a very good indicator of tension and discomfort. This horse only shows some tail swishing in a few transitions and the canter pirouettes. To me this is a pretty good sign that this horse is performing mostly tension free. So is the nicely elevated tail. Another well known clinician, who's not associated with Anky in any way, once told me that this is a sign of a happy horse.

I understand the controversy around Anky's riding techniques and do have appreciation for the concerns, but I think we also have an obligation to be as objective as possible about new training methods and develoments.

I have yet to see one of her horses go into early retirement because he/she broke down due to the applied new training methods. Until something like this happens and becomes known I will continue to observe and evaluate this training method with an open mind.

iancleese
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:47 AM
well, i dont know.... i thought it was a very uninspiring ride. and salinerro looked very tired.

finally, she admits it! she doesn't know! looking for nits to pick as usual when comfronted with something nice as heaven forbid she say something nice about the top rider in the world.

Jeepers
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:52 AM
No one has said the R-word yet... :uhoh: Although it has been alluded to. Once that is said it'll turn into one of those atrocious threads that debates the topic for scores of pages. But that is why there is animosity towards her.

CarrieK
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:53 AM
Thanks for posting that link!!

sabryant
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:57 AM
Thanks for this link. I thought it was an awesome ride! How anyone could think he looked tired is beyond me?? His topline was ROCK steady throughout the entire test...that tells me a lot! Only thing I noticed as big error was the halt (he looked like he just wanted to try his heart out smack through both halts.) Very minor errors were a little head tilt in the trot half pass right and popped his croup up a couple times in canter (far from a buck.) I saw no tension rather a huge, big, trying heart!!! Great ride!!! thanks again! No horse who is being abused would try that hard!!!

Bats79
Jun. 17, 2006, 05:49 AM
Can't point you to a file but I loved Hubertus Schmidts ride on Forrest Gump at Stuttgart.(?) I know it wasn't technically the best but it made us all so happy to watch.

He gave the impression of having "following hands" as though the horse was setting the agenda and he was making suggestions rather than the horse being locked in between the rider's hands and seat/spur.

After all, we were talking about "like" not making a comment on technical correctness as per the judges.

Hazelnut
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:10 AM
Thanks for the link!

It would give me great pleasure to ride with that grace and elegance...

yellowbritches
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:15 AM
Thanks for the link! I always enjoy watching good upper level dressage, wether it's Grand Prix or four star. Very nice.

I may be saying what I'm about to say because I didn't sleep well, but...

To those who like to rip apart this test, or anything Anky does, have any of you ridden in a World Cup, or at Grand Prix, even?

Noir
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:25 AM
I thought both Anky and Sjef were probably surprised by the final score. He certainly looks like he thought the display was "average" (which would certainly win anyway, since they usually do). He's shuttling his head. I thought it looked pretty much the way it usually does, too. No major errors, no visible aids or other extreme dis-harmony, except for canter departs. I haven't seen the other's ride, but it may very well be that she was the best in this final. So I say nothing about that.

P & P: The horse is wiiiide in front and very narrow behind. The view from in front conceals that the back is sort of sway in the piaffe, but it's obvious to the trained eye. Very "leggy".

Traverse: Traversale to the right (1:40) the head is very tilted, and that goes along with the horse not bending in right turns. Hindquarters skid to the outside in right turns. Hindquarters off to the inside in left turns.

Pirouettes not sitting. No overtracking in extended trot or extended walk.

I don't think he whisked his tail more than other horses in a GP test.
I think it's a brilliant choreography to the music. Simply brilliant! Hats off to Slings & Kerkhof!

Theresa

Sannois
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:27 AM
No one has said the R-word yet... :uhoh: Although it has been alluded to. Once that is said it'll turn into one of those atrocious threads that debates the topic for scores of pages. But that is why there is animosity towards her.
What R word ??? You mean Rollkur???:D Oh my heavens I said it.
The reason I asked about the guy at the ens, was he had a rather disguisted look on his face! :yes:

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:41 AM
The judges scored on what they saw in the arena. That's why it was not a perfect score. I saw the sight attempt at buck at the one tempis depart (as did the annoucer) but she put a quick stop to that. And the lack of halt ( I must say the photographer knows when to zoom in and out). And the attempt of the piaffe at the final salute. He seems to be confused about halt. But sorry, as much as I dislike RK and can't stand to watch it, I have to say it was a beautiful job. This horse was right on the edge but constantly listening and giving his all to his rider.

Sannois
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:49 AM
The judges scored on what they saw in the arena. That's why it was not a perfect score. I saw the sight attempt at buck at the one tempis depart (as did the annoucer) but she put a quick stop to that. And the lack of halt ( I must say the photographer knows when to zoom in and out). And the attempt of the piaffe at the final salute. He seems to be confused about halt. But sorry, as much as I dislike RK and can't stand to watch it, I have to say it was a beautiful job. This horse was right on the edge but constantly listening and giving his all to his rider.
Right on the edge of what?? Brillance, or insanity??
I am rather Surprised that the halt is not there, To me that is so basic. And before you kill me, I have seen her ride many tests, she had a nice halt with others.

Sannois
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:28 AM
Someone eluded to the fact that Rollkur.. dang I said it! when used in warmup produced Flashy extravagant gaits in the ring.
Is that the true reason for using it?? If it is, I can understand, may not agree with it, but if your trying to impress, and win, Besides correctness, one would want to stand out above the other competetors. Is that over simplifying?
Or is it as someone aluded to me, in another thread, Sabryant I believe, That the horse is so over the top, that it is the only way to control him.
Her comment to me was that if I was to use the lightest of aides, on a horse like that, I would end up in a body brace. :confused: To me, There is something wrong with the training if the horse is that uncontrollable. Someone please help me out here! If that is the same Salinero you are referring to , he did not look that extravagant at all, I have seen more extravagant rides, and flambouant gaits. He did not look that close to the edge so to speak.

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:41 AM
I not going to defend Anky. I don't like RK and as I said, I can't stand to watch it. I'm sure I'll never be at a level to ever have to even consider using it. "Dressage showing" and dressage training are not the same animal as they used to be in mho. The judges saw a powerful, forward athlete performing the movements as the modern "show horse" is expected to and judged accordingly. I saw a very fit, tough horse whose energy was wisely kept under control by a tackful ride. I did not have the chance to see other rides so have nothing to compare with. Maybe this ride reflected the best ride of the day when compared to the perfection the judges must judge against. I'm sure if it wasn't someone who was there or has seen other, better rides from that day will enlighten us.

Daydream Believer
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:56 AM
What do you all think of his passage work in particular? For some reason his passage always looks tense and stilted. There's a jerkiness to it rather than a smoothness.

I will say that's the best piaffe I've seen this horse do. I also love her music. That last halt was very dissappointing.

kkj
Jun. 17, 2006, 08:01 AM
Thanks for the link.

They look better than the last time I saw them.

I don't like Rolkur and I can't stand Sjeff, but I dream of riding like Anky did on that tape. I thought she did a great job. Agree he is not perfect in the canter departs. There is still some tension there and in the halts. Still it was fabulous to watch.

Carol Ames
Jun. 17, 2006, 08:49 AM
Would pleasecheckout the extend trot? It seemed to me that there w as an"extra articulation" in the pasternjoint:confused: not unlike some saddlebreds?

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 17, 2006, 08:57 AM
You do all realize that a constantly swishing tail in a performance horse is a very good indicator of tension and discomfort. This horse only shows some tail swishing in a few transitions and the canter pirouettes. To me this is a pretty good sign that this horse is performing mostly tension free.

This is what I watched closely, too ... and to me, the tail looked very relaxed except for a few movements.

As I understand it, swishing tail can be discomfort or a sign of intense effort or concentration (or worry) ... but the general lack of any of that impressed me.

As for teh horse looking off ... keep in mind that you're getting this over the internet and not only server speed but your network speed is going to affect what you see. I could defininetly detect lag in delivery ... but that was about the most fantastic piaffe and passage I've ever seen ... level, steady, consistent ... and w/out tail swishing.

fatwhitepony
Jun. 17, 2006, 09:59 AM
:confused: That was a beautiful ride??? :no:

It is probably as accurate as it can possibly be with the horse in the balance that he is in. Correct, no, accurate, yes.

eponacelt
Jun. 17, 2006, 10:00 AM
I think as we've all noted, there are things that can be improved uponbut I expect Anky knows that. My personal pet peeve in this ride is the lack of a fluid walk. Frankly, I think Salinero looks like he's forgotten how to walk. Just walk. But that's me. The lack of a halt bothered me too, but my horse frequently does exactly what Salinero did, despite my best efforts to fix it, so who am I to complain!

All in all, I do enjoy watching kur rides because even the worst ones are lovely. At that level, nothing is perfect, but its better than anything I'm likely to see in my barn!

Funckyfilly
Jun. 17, 2006, 10:48 AM
Such igonorance on this board.

Noir
Jun. 17, 2006, 10:53 AM
Such igonorance on this board.

You would make a little more impact if you would explain why you think so and not just do a general staement like that. Maybe you are one of those who make up the ignorance on this board.

Noir

siegi b.
Jun. 17, 2006, 11:05 AM
Noir - let me answer your question...

Go back and read ALL the responses to this thread... and then realize that what to some people is gorgeous, is totally wrong to others. That alone should tell you something... namely, that the vast majority of posters doesn't have a clue. But they still sit around and shake their collective fingers at big, bad rollkur Anky. It's really quite laughable.

Noir
Jun. 17, 2006, 11:11 AM
Noir - let me answer your question...

Go back and read ALL the responses to this thread... and then realize that what to some people is gorgeous, is totally wrong to others. That alone should tell you something... namely, that the vast majority of posters doesn't have a clue. But they still sit around and shake their collective fingers at big, bad rollkur Anky. It's really quite laughable.

So because those who "like" what they see disagree with those who don't like what they see, that is see specific problems, which they also explain, that means that those who dislike it must be ignorant? Absolutely not those who like it, even if they don't specifically say anything other than that they like it. Where is your logic?

And what "collective finger"? I team up with noone. I only express what I, as in myself, think is lacking in the performance, and also added what I think makes it very impressive.

I think you are so bent on seeing it as a conspiracy, a personal vendetta if you like, that you think that all people who don't like all parts of it must have teamed up. Silly, really.

T

Horsedances
Jun. 17, 2006, 11:26 AM
http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=50477

Jeepers
Jun. 17, 2006, 11:26 AM
There is a difference in the people who nitpick every little thing and seem quite bitter and the people truly pointing out the weaker points of the ride... It isn't perfect, I think we can all agree to that.

I know that the walk can deteriorate in FEI level horses, or more common, just that some horses have one sucky gait while the all of others can be good. Anyway, it is still a decent ride.

BornToRide
Jun. 17, 2006, 11:30 AM
Agreed - nothing is ever perfect anyway. I try to be objective about what I see as much as I can simply for the reason that I want to be honest with/to myself. If I do not do this, I might end up with wrong conclusions and why would I want to lie to myself ???!? :confused:

DressageGuy
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:24 PM
The biggest problem I continue to see with this pair is that all the movement and flash is up front, with nothing coming from behind. That, to me, shows a SEVERE lack of basics. A horse at that level should have the utmost engagement behind, and this one is totally lacking it. Come on, how could any judge give those extensions any more than, say, a 4. He covers no ground and just flings his front legs out in front of him. He was totally out of balance in the piaffe as well; a horse should not be swaying from side to side in the piaffe. I have to agree with others who have said it's starting to look more and more like glorified saddle-seat.

Noir
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:57 PM
There is a difference in the people who nitpick every little thing and seem quite bitter and the people truly pointing out the weaker points of the ride.

And who's going to decide what is "nitpicking" and what is "pointing out" and who "seems bitter" and who doesn't? If it's the same descriptions and arguments, I mean? Is it ones track reckord? If one has been critical of the training method in too many posts, one automatically lands in the "ignorant bitter nitpicker" category? Especially ignorant applies? Who's to say? Those who accuse of conspiracy?

Theresa

Noir
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:03 PM
The biggest problem I continue to see with this pair is that all the movement and flash is up front, with nothing coming from behind.

I honestly think he has "something coming from behind", but unfortunately not the right stuff. He IS active behind, but not active in a "stepping under, compressing the joints, taking the power through the round back" sort of way. More in a "lift the legs, lift the legs". I think a lot of onlookers interpret the moving legs, moving to the rhythm of the music as the epitome of a good piaffe/passage. I actually don't. I agree that it really looks a tad gaited.

T

BornToRide
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:12 PM
If I really scrutenize the video, here is what I also see:

- The horse is not imbalanced in the piaffe - if he were he'd take some bad steps in beteen to catch himself. Especially the piaffe turrn to to the right required him to be belanced or he would not be ablet to execute the movement.
-He has the tendency to lift the right knee higher than the left and also seems to be loser in the right shoulder than the left. I agree that the extensions look a bit tight.
- the left lead canter seems to be his harder side which is probably related to his natural crookedness that every horse has. According to Klimke, even highly trained Grand Prix horse retain some of this challenge. You can see in the tempis that he will wring the tail when he's asked for the left lead, but not when asked for the right lead, and it is consistent.

BTW, my youngest cat agrees with this too, as she watched the ride with great interest from my office desk....:D

Jeepers
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:17 PM
And who's going to decide what is "nitpicking" and what is "pointing out" and who "seems bitter" and who doesn't? If it's the same descriptions and arguments, I mean? Is it ones track reckord? If one has been critical of the training method in too many posts, one automatically lands in the "ignorant bitter nitpicker" category? Especially ignorant applies? Who's to say? Those who accuse of conspiracy?

Theresa

Basic reading skills are what it takes to tell what is ripping apart someone needlessly or whether it's an honest judgement.

siegi b.
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:17 PM
Noir - maybe there is a bit of a language barrier here?

I said that what some posters like about the ride, others don't like at all. I was NOT saying that all the negative comments came from RK haters, I was merely trying to point out that the readers in general had widely different views and opinions on Anky's ride. Not just a slight difference in opinions mind you, but sometimes direct opposites. Which, in turn, leads me to believe that maybe we're not dealing with a very dressage-educated audience??? Which, in turn, leads me to believe that this whole discussion is somewhat superfluous?

fiona
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:23 PM
The biggest problem I continue to see with this pair is that all the movement and flash is up front, with nothing coming from behind. That, to me, shows a SEVERE lack of basics.

Nothing? What absolutely Nothing? There you are wrong. Yes it could be better but show me horse that couldn't. It has more extravagance in front due to mother nature not because is has no hindleg.


He covers no ground and just flings his front legs out in front of him.
I repeat he has more extravagance in front due to mother nature. He does cover ground, the rules state the horse should cover as much ground as possible. There is more to juding extended trot than measuring the overtrack - you could teach your grandmother to do that in 5 seconds.


He was totally out of balance in the piaffe as well;

what TOTALLY? no he wasn't but he did lose balance sometimes particularly when he got nervous and over keen.

Judging is about being able to evaluate what you see and deliver an educated critique. Even when you don't like someone's riding style or maybe a particular breed you have to be fair minded.
I saw that test in real life it was the right result and the right score on the day. I know several of the judges and they know their job inside out and backwards. Yes you can always debate the details and there will be differences of opinion but in dressage 10 means excellent it has never meant perfect and it never will.

MistyBlue
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:46 PM
LOL, let's try to make *everyone* happy on this forum (possible?) by posting videos of a perfect mix of classical and competition dressage performed on a barefoot mustang doing everything perfectly and correct and accurate without it's face never leaving the verticle by an unknown rider who's fabulous enough for wolrd class competition but normally refuses to compete with in uppity events and has the horse trained in the NH style so that all these movement are completely natural.
The top competitors do it wrong, the backyard riders do it wrong, all the top trainers do it wrong, everyone who's read books on it does it wrong, everyone who posts on BB's does it wrong. Is it at all possible to ever do dressage correctly? Not according to this forum. :winkgrin:

Carol Ames
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:54 PM
Ok after my fifth watching/viewing, I am impressed by the height he gets the passage piaffe tours also in the cheoreography use of the music ; the changes in music were matched well with the the changes in movement. Of course the halts wre not therere er , but,overall the frestyle was quite pleasing, I have sent it on to my horse loving but, non dressage friends. Imay dislike rollkurkbut, still enjoyedwatching. In addition I was imoressed by his "reach " inthe zigzags, what an athlete!. Can you imagine himover a fence? :D :D

Carol Ames
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:54 PM
What was the language of the commentary?

Carol Ames
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:11 PM
n, my youngest cat agrees with this too, as she watched the ride with great interest from my office desk.... and, how is heris lateral work? even, or isided? :D also?
__________________

Carol Ames
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:16 PM
Misty OL, let's try to make *everyone* happy on this forum (possible?) by posting videos of a perfect mix of classical and competition dressage performed on a barefoot mustang doing everything perfectly and correct and accurate without it's face never leaving the verticle by an unknown rider who's fabulous enough for wolrd class competition but normally refuses to compete with in uppity events and has the horse trained in the NH style so that all these movement are completely natural. are you telling us that the Parelis didthe wpotld Cup?,





THis I wantto see! Did theParellis do thete world Cup?:D ?

BornToRide
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:20 PM
n, my youngest cat agrees with this too, as she watched the ride with great interest from my office desk.... and, how is heris lateral work? even, or isided? :D also?
__________________She just thought the horse looked very pretty - she seemed to be impressed :D

Noir
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:21 PM
Noir - maybe there is a bit of a language barrier here?
Quite possibly so, but you led the "ignorance" descriptions in the way of those who "still sit around and shake their collective fingers at big, bad rollkur Anky" and not a hint at anyone else. The rest of the post was a reply to Jeepers

I also think that there might be a horsey-language barrier, here. Someone say's "out of balance". Someone else says "then the horse would stumble/trip". But out of balance can mean everything from "toppling over" to "most of the weight on the forehand". Whic is it?

T

Caroline Weber
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:21 PM
The commentary was in Dutch, if I am not mistaken.

My Dutch? Not good. They tell me I speak like a German. ;)

BornToRide
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:29 PM
Yes, It sounded Dutch to me as well - was definitely not German :D

Caroline Weber
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:38 PM
Yes, It sounded Dutch to me as well - was definitely not German :D

Yes - if you're a German speaker, there are SOME words of Dutch you can pick up, but...not the same as German. I personally think that Dutch is much harder than German, but maybe that's because I'm more used to hearing German than I am to hearing Dutch.

Actually, it's kind of interesting...one of my schoolteachers (he is Dutch) and I once debated German v. Dutch linguistics. He said that during World War II, the Dutch used to detect Germans trying to enter the country by asking them to pronounce the name of a certain Dutch town (I can't remember which one), as no one but the Dutch could pronounce it.

Daydream Believer
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:57 PM
dressage performed on a barefoot mustang

Hey! I have one of those! :winkgrin: I have to do a "dressage demonstration" next weekend at the Virginia Indian Horse Festival in a pasture no less and that on a 5 year old stallion doing approx first level...should be interesting. :lol:

hb
Jun. 17, 2006, 03:14 PM
Noir - let me answer your question...

Go back and read ALL the responses to this thread... and then realize that what to some people is gorgeous, is totally wrong to others. That alone should tell you something... namely, that the vast majority of posters doesn't have a clue. But they still sit around and shake their collective fingers at big, bad rollkur Anky. It's really quite laughable.

So some people think it's beautiful and some don't like it.

So what. There is a lot of variety across the many different sports that people do with horses and what is beautiful to some people is not to others. Big deal.

Those are opinions. Why can't people state opinions on this board without people with different opinions arguing about ignorance and right and wrong and correct/incorrect? And when people state something that is an opinion, why can't they realize it's not fact?

That ride got a record high score from licensed judges who see a lot more Grand Prix rides than the rest of us. So it probably is technically correct. That doesn't affect whether I like it or not any more than a person's technical skill at playing a musical instrument affects whether I like the song they are playing. Dressage is, to a certain extent, an art, and art begets opinions.

If you don't like Rollkur and don't like how Anky rides, don't emulate her. If you think she's great then that's fine too. If you truly think Rollkur is abusive then contact the Humane Society or ASPCA and try to get it banned. However, your time might be better spent advocating for starving, diseased, neglected horses, or horses on the way to the slaughterhouse, than advocating for well-kept competition animals that are subjected to a training method that you don't like. If you do think Rollkur is great

Okay, back to my habit of just lurking 99% of the time.

Oh, one more thing, for the record, I didn't think that ride was beautiful. Just my opinion. No offense intended to those who did. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

fiona
Jun. 17, 2006, 03:25 PM
He said that during World War II, the Dutch used to detect Germans trying to enter the country by asking them to pronounce the name of a certain Dutch town (I can't remember which one), as no one but the Dutch could pronounce it.

Bet that was s'Hertogenbosch i can't even spell it and you have no idea how many times you have to try and say it. Everyone calls it tenBosh

mbm
Jun. 17, 2006, 04:26 PM
question: can some one point of why that ride was so wonderful that it deserved an all time high score? (serious question)

i have been thinking alot about Int'l dressage and i guess what bothers me is that somewhere along the line we lost the part in dressage that is about beauty and art and feeling and now it is all about errors and how many steps and etc . so we now have a toprider that has figured out how to get the technical (how many steps, etc) but not, in my opinion, in intent of dressage. what is missing is the feeling and harmony.

i see a horse that has been taught to be submissive no matter what and to do exactly what the rider says with no input from the horse.... no feeling of the horse doing on its own what the rider asks...... (ie the is no salinero in that ride... that is all AVG. she does not ever give him a moment to express himself. ) even with the music to me it is a cold calculated ride with no emotion.

i guess that is my biggest issue and why Intl dressage, for the most part, fails to exite me. Of course, there are exception as when i see a ride by Mr Schmidt - which brings tears to my eyes because he *does* bring to his rides the art/emotion/harmony of dressage.

I am hoping that his turn will be next as he has paid his dues and its time for a change.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 17, 2006, 04:42 PM
can some one point of why that ride was so wonderful that it deserved an all time high score? (serious question)

Freestyles are scored on both technical and artistic components. Artistic merit is somewhat subjective, but it's the reason freestyle scores tend to be considerably higher than their regular ride counterparts.

Artistically, one of the neatest things was the way the one tempis hit so perfectly on the beat. The same in the trot extensions.

mbm
Jun. 17, 2006, 04:47 PM
so kathy becuase of the hitting ont he beat it deserves the highest score ever? i am honestly trying to understand as, like i mentioned before, this ride didnt do anything for me (or for SJ for that matter given his face at the end of the ride)...

so since AVGs trainer didnt think it was a good ride what did the judges see that made them think so??

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 17, 2006, 05:20 PM
It's important to understand that a freestyle is not scored the same as a standard GP test. There are both technical and artistic components, which are averaged, and there are no errors possible (because there is no mandated pattern). So, we can dissect each technical flaw, but it will not weigh as heavily as it would in a standard test, because the rider also gets an artistic score. If the artistic score is very high, it can over-ride a lot of technical difficulties.

Halts are compulsory in freestyles, if it was in this thread someone said they were not.

I have not watched enough GP freestyles to say if that was the best ever. It's one of the best I've seen, but I also loved Anky's Love is Blue freestyle. I can't say if Sjeff liked that ride or not. He appeared to be either stone walling the cameras or thinking about something else like, "is the baby ever going to sleep through the night so I can get some rest?"

fiona
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:21 PM
actually he was just very nervous for her, he's always like that and it can't fun having the camera on your face when you feel like that.

mbm
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:33 PM
fiona - why was he so nervous? (as an aside, i have seen his reactions for other rides and he has looked happy/relieved for those. )

and kathy suggests that perhaps he may be thinking about the baby and fiona says he is very nervous.... and i thought he looked dissapointed....

interesting how everyone sees something different :)

of course i have no clue what he is thinking but they show these clips of the trainers/owners for a reason, yes??

Jenn2674
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:33 PM
Please, those of you that did not like AvG's ride, point me to a few different videos of some GP rides that you thought were better? It doesn't have to necessarily be in a competition but it needs to be a test. It wouldn't be fair to compare individual movements with a whole test.

But, if their is a video of a non-competative horse doing a test that you liked a whole lot better, then please show us. And I am not trying to be snide, I want to see what is "ideal" or as close to perfect as we can get.

Jenn

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:01 PM
Just for grins, here is the Grand Prix Freestyle scoresheet. If you wanted to score her ride, you could. I'm sure it would be opening a can of worms to compare our scores, but it might be fun.

Notice the TIMES 4 coefficient for the artistic marks. You can get a cumulative of 200 on technical and 200 on artistic, so they are of equal weight. But giving "harmony" or "interpretation of music" each a score of 40 is a lot more subjective than giving the one tempis a score of 10.

http://www.horsesport.org/PDFS/D/05_02/free/GPF_E.pdf

Katie H
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:07 PM
Anyone else notice that in the right of that page, slightly below the video, it says "We will forward your comments, good or bad to the FEI Officers and the judges. Click here" Should we send them this thread and see what happens :D

Katie H
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:15 PM
Oh - I'm still waiting for this video to load due my slow connection, but I've got up to the first trot extension... He's behind the bit for a lot of the diagonal. *shrugs* Just my observation, that many of the horses, whose riders use r/k, seem to produce tests that see horses slightly behind the vertical, or even a little bit more, for most of the test... There's another video of Anky and Krack C which shows this too.

mbm
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:38 PM
Please, those of you that did not like AvG's ride, point me to a few different videos of some GP rides that you thought were better? It doesn't have to necessarily be in a competition but it needs to be a test. It wouldn't be fair to compare individual movements with a whole test.

But, if their is a video of a non-competative horse doing a test that you liked a whole lot better, then please show us. And I am not trying to be snide, I want to see what is "ideal" or as close to perfect as we can get.

Jenn

edited to ask: are you only wanting to see kur rides or any GP ride?


recently my favorite kur ride has been hubertus schmidt and forest gump -

http://stuttgart-german-masters.de/bilder2005/sa_hubertus_kuer.wmv

you can see video here and there are other clips of kur rides too for comparison

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2005/nov_stuttgart.html

Horsedances
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:55 PM
Just for grins, here is the Grand Prix Freestyle scoresheet. If you wanted to score her ride, you could. I'm sure it would be opening a can of worms to compare our scores, but it might be fun.

Notice the TIMES 4 coefficient for the artistic marks. You can get a cumulative of 200 on technical and 200 on artistic, so they are of equal weight. But giving "harmony" or "interpretation of music" each a score of 40 is a lot more subjective than giving the one tempis a score of 10.

http://www.horsesport.org/PDFS/D/05_02/free/GPF_E.pdf

Kathy, this scoresheet wasn't valid at the time of the ride. This scoresheet is valid from 01/06/2006

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:59 PM
Now, can I help it if the FEI is behind/ahead of the times? I got the scoresheet from their site. Have there been any changes of note?

Bats79
Jun. 18, 2006, 03:02 AM
Thankyou MBM. That is exactly the ride by Schmidt that I pointed out as one I "liked" 3 pages ago but nobody paid any attention to what I said. :) Someone specifically asked (after saying I sounded bitter - but I think just a little disappointed) what rides I liked and that one is currently on the top of my list. I have it on my computer but can't make a link to it.

fiona
Jun. 18, 2006, 03:04 AM
fiona - why was he so nervous? (as an aside, i have seen his reactions for other rides and he has looked happy/relieved for those. )


I think the competition was in a different hall than usual and everyone was worried about whether it would be noisy and how the horses would react, especially sjef! When they came into the arena everyone was soooooo quiet and later Anky thanked the audience for that. Sjef really did look green!

nero
Jun. 18, 2006, 04:38 AM
two observations.
1) How on earth can you all be sooo sure that Sjef's reaction is because he didn't like the ride?? He could have been asked by Geoff (the guy next to him), did Salinero's coat shine enough, if the judges would be nice, if Anky's groom had put the champagne in the fridge, geez maybe even Geoff farted and that was Sjef's reaction. I think you people are incredible to assume you know what he was reacting to, maybe you've got esp. Good lord.

2) It is really interesting to me how many of you invest negative energy into studying Anky. People like mbm and paula have been posting their disapproval of her riding and training for years now, and despite saying they get no enjoyment form watching her, they seem to watch her a lot, hence these analyses of her on just about every rk or anky thread ever started here or over yonder on the other dressage board. How sad to be so negative, so often (and really, check out ALL your posts, there are a lot). If you are truly turned off by her why don't you just stop watching her, stop commentng about her and stop letting the way she rides make you so upset.

Me, I LOVE watching her ride and hence love commenting on why, my Anky experience is coming from a positive place. If something distresses ME I just would not bother exposing myself to it. I truly feel sorry for you if you cannot stand her training but still can't turn away and go do something else. How sad.

But at least you haven't dedicated your life to creating a WHOLE website aimed at discrediting Anky and her students, that would just be too pathetic to consider. Some people really do live a negative and bitter life don't they.

Bats79
Jun. 18, 2006, 05:02 AM
OH Pleeeese. There are whole websites dedicated to stopping people from eating meat but this meat eater doesn't rubbish vegetarian's position and call them jealous and bitter. Many times we go to the trouble of preparing food specially for our vegan/vegetarian friends.

But if people don't like someone's training method / riding method and want to talk about the reasons they have to be put down and told "If you don't have something nice to say don't say anything". We operate in an industry that depends on instruction and judging therefore we have to be capable of discussing opinion and recomendation.

And then saying that we shouldn't question our betters! How else to better ourselves but seek the same clarification, instruction and judgement and learning/changing or not.

Keeping silent never did anyone favours - certainly neither does bitterness but disillusionment is something that we all feel at times and if that comes out in a discussion there is no reason to imply that the person has no right to comment.

nero
Jun. 18, 2006, 05:17 AM
OH Pleeeese. There are whole websites dedicated to stopping people from eating meat but this meat eater doesn't rubbish vegetarian's position and call them jealous and bitter. Many times we go to the trouble of preparing food specially for our vegan/vegetarian friends.

But if people don't like someone's training method / riding method and want to talk about the reasons they have to be put down and told "If you don't have something nice to say don't say anything". We operate in an industry that depends on instruction and judging therefore we have to be capable of discussing opinion and recomendation.

And then saying that we shouldn't question our betters! How else to better ourselves but seek the same clarification, instruction and judgement and learning/changing or not.

Keeping silent never did anyone favours - certainly neither does bitterness but disillusionment is something that we all feel at times and if that comes out in a discussion there is no reason to imply that the person has no right to comment.

Yeah right, you might believe this I don't. If they were soooo concerned with just the 'cruelty' of the training method, they'd restrict their comments to rk threads and discuss the actual technique, but they undo themselves when they come onto an anky thread just to bitch and moan about her tests. yes having an opinion is fine, even if it is a negative one, but the usual suspects seem to fixate on it so much and post literally hundreds of times, that it ceases to be just a comment and just starts to look pathetic.

Noir
Jun. 18, 2006, 05:48 AM
Yeah right, you might believe this I don't. If they were soooo concerned with just the 'cruelty' of the training method, they'd restrict their comments to rk threads and discuss the actual technique, but they undo themselves when they come onto an anky thread just to bitch and moan about her tests. yes having an opinion is fine, even if it is a negative one, but the usual suspects seem to fixate on it so much and post literally hundreds of times, that it ceases to be just a comment and just starts to look pathetic.

I don't think the issue is "cruelty" for most dressage interested. It is basically the direction that the sport/art is taking. Hey, it it was cruelty I wanted to affect I'd work for Amnesty International and care about people before I'd care about animals, especially pampered sports animals. Child labour, trafficing, wars...

It's not my opinion that I "bitch and moan" about her tests. I even think she might be the rightful winner a lot of the times, because the other competitors don't put in a much better test, eiterh, to be honest. And the scores for the freestyle is very hard to comment on, because of the amount of points for artistic performance. I mean those Edit Piaf songs, the riding to the beat, everything, it's pretty amazing! I remember back in the 90's I used to cringe at the home-edited tapes of horrible, horrible music that some Swedes bring to their performances. The way Anky presents her coreography to the music has been looooong overdue. It's really thought through and pleasing!

But I cannot sit quiet when people say her piaffe/passage is 9-10 when there are very basic biomechanical no-nos, like the balancé, the moving back of the frontlegs, unevenness and other quite apparent problems. If that's a 10, what is a piaffe of the same height and rhythm but with real sit, light forehand and evenness going to score? 11-12? I see how the judges might have given her 8-9 on the technical and a full out 10 on the artistic, and how that adds up to 9-10 in reality. But the piaffe in itself had flaws, quite serious ones, and people need to know that.

T

Charlotte
Jun. 18, 2006, 06:41 AM
For those who commented that Salinero looked nervous:
I've heard, from a friend who has the priviledge of watching Salinero work almost every day, that he's apparently one of the hottest horses Anky has ridden. Possibly temperment has something to do with some of the faults during the test?

MistyBlue
Jun. 18, 2006, 06:51 AM
Carol...I think it was Monty Roberts doing GP dressage. :winkgrin:
Daydream...have a great time with your dressage demo! Maybe have it video taped so all the armchair judges on here can see it. :D

Noir
Jun. 18, 2006, 06:58 AM
For those who commented that Salinero looked nervous:
I've heard, from a friend who has the priviledge of watching Salinero work almost every day, that he's apparently one of the hottest horses Anky has ridden. Possibly temperment has something to do with some of the faults during the test?

For those who commented that Salinero looked nervous:

Their groom (possibly ex-groom) says he's calm as a jug of milk being led about the grounds, and likes to graze and stroll. Then nerves seem to come into play when ridden..?

T

nero
Jun. 18, 2006, 07:04 AM
well noir, you just proved my point - nothing short of people thinking anky was cruel or abusive would justify the anti-rk hysteria on this and other boards. If you guys just have a problem with her scores and that is the real motivating factor behind all these hundreds, probably thousands, of posts, then seriously, you need to get out more. To continually harp on and on about how someone got one or two marks more than YOU think they deserved, well surely your time and energy would be better spent reflecting on your own faults, or your own riding, or cleaning your house, reading the classics etc. I don't like what the big serve and nothing behind it has done to modern tennis, (and I love tennis), but I don't go on internet boards to complain about it, I just watch the players I like and not the players I don't like and go do something else. If I did complain for years on end on the internet that the big serve and no ground shots had ruined modern tennis I'd reckon I would be pretty tragic.

Noir
Jun. 18, 2006, 07:18 AM
You are missing the point I'm trying to make, Nero.

I'm concerned with dressage. Not so much the scoring, as I explained above, as I am with the training (since dressage is 95% training and 5% showing). Most riders ride for their own fun and enjoyment. If they for some reason think that rollkur is the right way to ride and warm up, and that a croup high and hocks out horse is working correctly and actively, the whole sport, not just some pros in the elite, is going to lose what it once was and become a circus. That has already happened to a large part. I don't wan't it to get lost in history.

You may not think so, but I post very seldom on this forum, as well as on the other BB, and even not very much on the Swedish ones. I have devoted my life to my family, to riding, and to art education. If I spent 1% of the time I spend on those things, on arguing about what points elite riders get in a test, I'd be bored. I basically don't. I go on about my own business for 99% of the time, and enjoy it. But I guess you don't want to see that, so you choose not to.

T

Daydream Believer
Jun. 18, 2006, 07:53 AM
Daydream...have a great time with your dressage demo! Maybe have it video taped so all the armchair judges on here can see it. :D

:lol::lol::lol:

Thanks! I'll be lucky if I survive it! I ought to tape some of my lessons with my coach. She had us doing the nicest canter work yesterday!

Seriously...what should I wear? An indian costume with war paint on Cisco or traditional dressage attire? :cool:

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 18, 2006, 08:24 AM
Seriously? I can't resist a fashion question. Given his gold coat is flashy enough, I would stick with the traditional dressage attire. Leave any Native American accoutrements to a mimimum, since it is his heritage, not yours. But a little symbology is nice, a stock pin, earrings or necklace, warpaint (just kidding). I also think black and gold are stunning on a buckskin, so if you go for something more informal, you could have a lot of fun with that. What music are you using?

nero
Jun. 18, 2006, 08:39 AM
You are missing the point I'm trying to make, Nero.

I'm concerned with dressage. Not so much the scoring, as I explained above, as I am with the training (since dressage is 95% training and 5% showing). Most riders ride for their own fun and enjoyment. If they for some reason think that rollkur is the right way to ride and warm up, and that a croup high and hocks out horse is working correctly and actively, the whole sport, not just some pros in the elite, is going to lose what it once was and become a circus. That has already happened to a large part. I don't wan't it to get lost in history.

You may not think so, but I post very seldom on this forum, as well as on the other BB, and even not very much on the Swedish ones. I have devoted my life to my family, to riding, and to art education. If I spent 1% of the time I spend on those things, on arguing about what points elite riders get in a test, I'd be bored. I basically don't. I go on about my own business for 99% of the time, and enjoy it. But I guess you don't want to see that, so you choose not to.

T Um, aren't you the person behind the sustainable dressage website?????

Oh well if doing THAT sort of thing is what floats your boat, then hey knock yourself out, but I think it kinda points to someone who's a bit obssessed with a 'lets get rk' agenda.

BTW I've read an awful lot of your posts here and elsewhere, you do post quite a bit.

You know you and the other naysayers are so convinced that dressage is going to the dogs, yet I watch say Corlandus on video (and I admit I loved that horse, just LOVED him) the other day, creeping piaffe which was croup high, slightly irregular hp and see Salinero is so much more correct and a vast imrovement on most of the horses from the 70's and 80's. So forgive me for being sceptical, but this so called demise of dressage - well I just don't see it. And I put it to you if the majority of people did not know HOW Anky trained you'd all love her too because her horses show no more faults than say a Schmidt or RZ trained horse, trainers the anti rk bunch just love. BUT you guys would never admit that, so I'll just keep that opinion and you guys can continue to get your knickers in a knot. Waste of time I reckon.

My point Therese is that you are entitled to be angry and disturbed and worried about the state of dressage, But i think its all a bit sad and funny that you would, given I believe your concerns are unfounded and largely based on the prejudice you hold against one training method.

San Miranda
Jun. 18, 2006, 09:23 AM
I have competed at GP level and found it to be one of the most stressfull things that one can do. Not just the competition itself but the "I have to put you down so that I may feel good about myself" attitude by the arm chair critics.:cry:

I feel for Anky, I loved the performances that I have seen of her and Bonfire.

Can you imagine the pressure that she must be under to replicate that time and time again.

In this modern age we are all in a hurry and find that we take short cuts where ever we can to get where we want to go. But as we get older we realise that the more we spend at the foundation level the quicker we get to where we are heading.

Anky will continue to learn and develop as a rider and horse person and I look forward to her future horses and performances.

siegi b.
Jun. 18, 2006, 10:24 AM
stated by San Miranda... Anky will continue to learn and develop as a rider and horse person and I look forward to her future horses and performances."

Couldn't have said it better...

However, we still have Theresa gracing us with her expertise that allows her to provide direction and purpose for the art of dressage going into the 22nd century and beyond since none of the FEI officials and judges with their combined experience of hundreds of years are able to see through the circus-like, non-balanced, zwangsjackenhaft, inhumane state of today's dressage. WOW, sounds pretty impressive, doesn't it? But that's what you're basically saying, right Theresa?

fiona
Jun. 18, 2006, 11:07 AM
San Miranda - Beautifully put.

Pommederue
Jun. 18, 2006, 11:11 AM
My point Therese is that you are entitled to be angry and disturbed and worried about the state of dressage, But i think its all a bit sad and funny that you would, given I believe your concerns are unfounded and largely based on the prejudice you hold against one training method.

Nero is my hero:yes:

nhwr
Jun. 18, 2006, 11:12 AM
I'm concerned with dressage. Not so much the scoring, as I explained above, as I am with the training (since dressage is 95% training and 5% showing).
This brings up a really good point. Competitive dressage is way more about training than it is about showing. So, how many people actually have direct experience and know how these riders train? Anyone? I have some second hand experience (been to a few clinics with Anky, not as rider, just to watch and I rode with someone who train with Sjef and her for more than a year). What you see in the photo and video clip aren't representative of what I have been exposed to at all.

This is what bother me a lot about these discussions, the willingness of many to believe that a photo or a videoclip says it all and that those who post them have unquestionable motives.

BornToRide
Jun. 18, 2006, 11:25 AM
I do not believe that Anky feels like she's under pressure to replicate her performances over and over again. I think she simply aims for her best and she's very good at it. It certainly shows . Anky is the type of person who does not have a huge ego that needs to be constantly stroked, like some other local DQs I know. I have watched her ride at a symposium and I was very impressed about how she communicated with the horses. She's very verbal and considerate with her horses and mostly faults herself if something did not go quite right. She's just very positive overall and I think this is what makes her so successful in the first place.

physical.energy
Jun. 18, 2006, 11:58 AM
I do not believe that Anky feels like she's under pressure to replicate her performances over and over again. I think she simply aims for her best and she's very good at it. It certainly shows . Anky is the type of person who does not have a huge ego that needs to be constantly stroked, like some other local DQs I know. I have watched her ride at a sumposium and I was very impressed about how she communicated with the horses. She's very verbal and considerate with her horses and mostly faults herself if something did not go quite right. She's just very positive overall and I think this is what makes her so successful in the first place.

:yes: :yes:
Yep, these guys, Anky, Kyra, Isabel..... they are cut from a different cloth and they are not insecure enough to even think about the pressure of making it. They have a different way of looking at themselves and don't need or look for the approval of others for a boost to their self esteem. They are confident, driven and secure. They have way of communicating with horses that is unlike the rest of the world. Therefore of course they are also positive that their way is right and could care less what the rest of the world thinks.
I think the judging is at a loss right now and they realize they are responsible for the direction things are going. That's a big responsibility. They seem to be frozen in fear of making any definite statements for or against so they are letting it sit. Kind of like If you don't know what the right thing to do is, then don't do anything until you do. I don't expect to see much change in the judging in the near future unless some fairly significant proven facts come out with regards to the health of the horse. Don't forget either that the judge only see's 10 min of the test..... not what the horse had to go thru before the test. Until then I guess we are going to have to tolerate the debate until such time.

BornToRide
Jun. 18, 2006, 12:01 PM
Yes, but you spell better than I :D

physical.energy
Jun. 18, 2006, 12:05 PM
and I'm dyxlesic:lol: :lol: :lol:

Noir
Jun. 18, 2006, 12:10 PM
Um, aren't you the person behind the sustainable dressage website?????

Oh well if doing THAT sort of thing is what floats your boat, then hey knock yourself out, but I think it kinda points to someone who's a bit obssessed with a 'lets get rk' agenda.

Sure I am. It's a website also very much against the unnecessary use of different training gadgets, against riding the horse forcefully held up in front, against using strong untimed aids because "horses are so strong and riders so petite", but you would actually have to read it to know that. It's a website where I try to explain how the biomechanics of the horse works, and how to actually allow your horse to do the right thing.

The texts are at times quite old. I wrote some almost 10 years ago, and have occasionally added on more and more. It's not exactly something I do on a daily basis, hence I can't say I'm obsessed with it. But since you feel that I am, you are totally free to think so.



BTW I've read an awful lot of your posts here and elsewhere, you do post quite a bit.

I seem to have posted 169 times since aug 29 2005. And I don't, like many others, have multiple nicks here on the BB.



You know you and the other naysayers are so convinced that dressage is going to the dogs, yet I watch say Corlandus on video (and I admit I loved that horse, just LOVED him) the other day, creeping piaffe which was croup high, slightly irregular hp and see Salinero is so much more correct and a vast imrovement on most of the horses from the 70's and 80's. So forgive me for being sceptical, but this so called demise of dressage - well I just don't see it.

That may be so. I watched som old tapes earlier this spring myself, and did not exactly appreciate what I saw, either. But the point is that the commentator made no secret of the flaws of that ride, nor the positives about it, of course. One could also see that the flaws were mistakes bourne from expressed loss of balance, the freedom to actually express the loss of balance, and other things. Most of the riders tried to let the horse do right, instead of training in a front-heavy default movement that would seem rather smooth if there's enough bouncing to the rhythm of the emotional music, to it.



And I put it to you if the majority of people did not know HOW Anky trained you'd all love her too because her horses show no more faults than say a Schmidt or RZ trained horse, trainers the anti rk bunch just love. BUT you guys would never admit that, so I'll just keep that opinion and you guys can continue to get your knickers in a knot. Waste of time I reckon.

I can't tell what others would feel if they didn't know about her rollkur training. I can personally say that myself, I started to investigate into her training because I thought Bonfire looked very odd when she rode the tests. Only then did I discover that she used the training method. I remember also always thinking Uphoff looked hovering on Remmi that just bounced along, and it looked nothing like the movements my trainer's horses showed. Why, I didn't know. I found out later. I have actually been surprised myself over the years just how exterme the rollkur method has become. In the beginning, I thought the reason I saw flat horses in the arena here in sweden was beacause they slightly overbent their horses (my trainer has had some of those for re-schooling) but as time passed by I found out more and more just how much torque was actually used. Nowadays, nothing surprises me.



My point Therese is that you are entitled to be angry and disturbed and worried about the state of dressage, But i think its all a bit sad and funny that you would, given I believe your concerns are unfounded and largely based on the prejudice you hold against one training method.

Your posts seem a bit too full if personal indignation to stem from thinking it "a bit sad and funny", though. But if you say so, hey...




However, we still have Theresa gracing us with her expertise that allows her to provide direction and purpose for the art of dressage going into the 22nd century and beyond since none of the FEI officials and judges with their combined experience of hundreds of years are able to see through the circus-like, non-balanced, zwangsjackenhaft, inhumane state of today's dressage. WOW, sounds pretty impressive, doesn't it? But that's what you're basically saying, right Theresa?

Oh, but many judges that I have talked to actually do. They see the very same thing as I do, although I must say that I don't actually see the Zwangsjackenhafte effect it has on dressage in the showring, like som others describe. I see some recourring errors, but I honestly see the same type of errors from horses not trained in that method, too. I have never stated differently. I see horses that give a kink-free test in a longitudal balance, and that use a lot of leg movement to impress because that's how they have been trained. And a lot of judges agree with me, apparently. But they're not asked back to judge because their scores differ too much from those who "know how to place the international top riders". That's what I'm basically saying.



This brings up a really good point. Competitive dressage is way more about training than it is about showing. So, how many people actually have direct experience and know how these riders train? Anyone? I have some second hand experience (been to a few clinics with Anky, not as rider, just to watch and I rode with someone who train with Sjef and her for more than a year). What you see in the photo and video clip aren't representative of what I have been exposed to at all.

This is what bother me a lot about these discussions, the willingness of many to believe that a photo or a videoclip says it all and that those who post them have unquestionable motives.

I, too, have compared what you see in their numerous tapes and clinics, how they describe how they ride and train, and I have also seen national clinics in the Netherlands, I have seen warmups also on home turf, and I have to say that what I see in their commercial videos is nothing like what I see when they warm-up or show out of the critical eyes of "unfriendly foreigners". The same goes for our Swedish heroes, of course. What they do at home looks nothing like what they show at clinics or on tapes. They are not stupid, are they.


Theresa

Daydream Believer
Jun. 18, 2006, 12:19 PM
Seriously? I can't resist a fashion question. Given his gold coat is flashy enough, I would stick with the traditional dressage attire. Leave any Native American accoutrements to a mimimum, since it is his heritage, not yours. But a little symbology is nice, a stock pin, earrings or necklace, warpaint (just kidding). I also think black and gold are stunning on a buckskin, so if you go for something more informal, you could have a lot of fun with that. What music are you using?

Thanks Kathy! Music...hmmmm...I had not thought to do that. Great idea! Maybe something from Spirit, Stallion of the Cimmaron. There is some really nice music on that soundtrack...Homeland is the title tract and it is almost nice enough to ride a freestyle too.

Well, I could warpaint Cisco since it is his heritage then...do a circle around his eye and lightning bolts on his legs. :cool: The circle around the eyes was so they could see holes and the lightning bolts were for speed.

Thanks for the suggestions on attire also. Gosh I might need to start my own thread on this as I don't want to steal this one but it is fun isnt' it?

fiona
Jun. 18, 2006, 12:51 PM
Go ahead, please steal it.

nhwr
Jun. 18, 2006, 01:26 PM
and I have also seen national clinics in the Netherlands, I have seen warmups also on home turf, and I have to say that what I see in their commercial videos is nothing like what I see when they warm-up or show out of the critical eyes of "unfriendly foreigners". The same goes for our Swedish heroes, of course. What they do at home looks nothing like what they show at clinics or on tapes. They are not stupid, are they.
I have had the same experiences, Theresa. And I don't agree with you say. But then I don't have any "media" to promote :rolleyes:

Noir
Jun. 18, 2006, 01:58 PM
I have had the same experiences, Theresa. And I don't agree with you say. But then I don't have any "media" to promote :rolleyes:

And I need to promote my media in order to get people to read about rollkur so that they will visit my website (promote my media) in order to what? Circular argument. Just what is it you think I stand to gain from it? Money?

T

nhwr
Jun. 18, 2006, 03:18 PM
Just what is it you think I stand to gain from it? Money?


I think you have a position (to which you have devoted considerable effort for unidentified reasons) for which you seek validation. Maybe you are just an ideologue, like Dubya ;)

MistyBlue
Jun. 18, 2006, 05:20 PM
Seriously...what should I wear? An indian costume with war paint on Cisco or traditional dressage attire? :cool:

Don't be silly...go with a feather in your top hat and fringed full seats. And no pony war paint...but a copy of your tests done in finger paints on him might help. :lol: :winkgrin:

Noir
Jun. 18, 2006, 05:52 PM
I think you have a position (to which you have devoted considerable effort for unidentified reasons) for which you seek validation. Maybe you are just an ideologue, like Dubya ;)

I think you are stretching even your elastic imagination...

T

Daydream Believer
Jun. 18, 2006, 08:12 PM
Don't be silly...go with a feather in your top hat and fringed full seats. And no pony war paint...but a copy of your tests done in finger paints on him might help. :lol: :winkgrin:

:lol: Great suggestion! Only it would be a helmet and not a top hat...I will not ride without one. :winkgrin:

MistyBlue
Jun. 18, 2006, 09:23 PM
Helmet's better...you can stick an Ostrich feather in there. :winkgrin: I never ride without a helmet either...my doc warned me that one more consussion and I'm broccoli. :eek:

Hony
Jun. 18, 2006, 10:00 PM
After watching the video and reading the millions of rollkur threads I decided to do an experiment!!! I practiced doing the dreaded rollkur.

Keep in mind I ride a Cob/TB event horse in a snaffle. I believe the bit has a great effect on the experiment.

Anyway, I tried to achieve the deep, through thing that people attempt to get when they do rollkur. My findings were that (and this is with my horse only) with a light contact and a lot of leg my horse would reach more down and in towards her chest. In fact, as she reached down I would give more and she would look for more contact, causing her to curl as in rollkur. It became a very elastic swingy feel which is what I suppose people are trying to get when they do this. My horse was a very supple round horse, certainly overbending but of her own accord.

In a snaffle I don't see how pulling would produce the rollkur posture. If the horse was unhappy it could easily evade the demands in this bit. It seems to me that in a curb it would be possible to get a bad version of this because of the lever action but that that would be an incorrect way to get the deep, round stretch because it would be forced.

My opinion after attempting it is this, if done correctly it is probably a stretch, not a punishment.

Also, I like Anky's horse in the video. To me he looks very workman like and relaxed. Of course he may have some things wrong as other posters have mentioned but who doesn't have issues? I think that until we can ride a test nearly as well as she does then we should not be so critical. Then again, maybe people are critical because they are just jealous that they can't ride a test as well as Anky can. I know I am!!!!

nhwr
Jun. 19, 2006, 12:07 AM
I think you are stretching even your elastic imagination...Where I live stretching, elasticity and imagination are all good things :yes:



Hony, welcome to the darkside. Do you own a flack jacket? :winkgrin:

ideayoda
Jun. 19, 2006, 12:40 AM
So, Noir is the only one who wants to know the if/then affects upon training of what we use? That is the basis of all equestrian anaylsis, and training within the nature of the horse. Her questions about the anomalies in Remmies rides of the 80s where (part of) what launched my own questions (although even earlier I asked why it was used on jumpers (late 60s/70s) and I didnt understand the premise for that, so I asked). Additionally, the uprising in Reiter Revue by no less than Niggli calling the FEI to task (Remmie winning over Goldstern) also made me look deeper. Weight the details. And then it was a far milder version than today. So, are we to do circles/shoulder in/renvers/travers/piaffe/changes JUST because they are in tests, but not for their effect on abs/adductors or to produce collection/amplitude/etc? Based upon that argument we don't need equitation/alignment of the riders either. Just make the horse answer the question regardless of balance?

JSwan
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:10 AM
Yes, please steal it. I'll watch for the cops.

You seem like a really nice person, but please - no loincloth. Leave that for GaWaNi phonyboy.






Thanks Kathy! Music...hmmmm...I had not thought to do that. Great idea! Maybe something from Spirit, Stallion of the Cimmaron. There is some really nice music on that soundtrack...Homeland is the title tract and it is almost nice enough to ride a freestyle too.

Well, I could warpaint Cisco since it is his heritage then...do a circle around his eye and lightning bolts on his legs. :cool: The circle around the eyes was so they could see holes and the lightning bolts were for speed.

Thanks for the suggestions on attire also. Gosh I might need to start my own thread on this as I don't want to steal this one but it is fun isnt' it?

Daydream Believer
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:20 AM
Yes, please steal it. I'll watch for the cops.

You seem like a really nice person, but please - no loincloth. Leave that for GaWaNi phonyboy.

What? No loincloth? :confused: Dangit! I thought that would be a great touch! Pony boy...drool...;)

Honestly if it's going to be 90 Degrees on Saturday, the heck with the black coat! I need a loincloth! Maybe a bikini top with it for decency's sake?

Misty Blue...yes I've had my share of concussions also after years of eventing (such awful abuse of riders) :lol: and now I know I will wear that danged helmet when I make it FEI levels some day.

I wonder if one of those plains indians chief's feathers thingees would cover the helmet? My fear is my horse will buck me off. He may be a true descendent of the indian ponies but he has very definite opinions of how he should look in the presence of mares in particular. :D

Horsedances
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:41 AM
I just spend two day's at a hughe dressage-competition, and watched over 100 rides from training-level to GrandPrix.

The things that I noticed was that when a horse with a lot of sparkles (I call it the naughty boys/girls) came in to the arena all the public left the bar or restaurant to come an watch. After seeing so much horses who are (just) doing their test nicely, calmly, you just want to see these hot horses where the vulcano can errupt every moment. You sit there with sweat in your hands to see if the rider can manage such a vulcano, and when he or she does, that combination is the winner, at least for the public, and since some years also for the judges. And the next thing you see is that horsetraders and potential buyers are gathering around these kind of horses. It's like Stephan Clark said at the press-conference after the WorldCup in LA, we want to see sparkles, and that's what I missed in Brentina.

Is it strange that more and more riders are buying these unguided missiles, since the public and the judges seem to love them.

Sannois
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:11 AM
I just spend two day's at a hughe dressage-competition, and watched over 100 rides from training-level to GrandPrix.

The things that I noticed was that when a horse with a lot of sparkles (I call it the naughty boys/girls) came in to the arena all the public left the bar or restaurant to come an watch. After seeing so much horses who are (just) doing their test nicely, calmly, you just want to see these hot horses where the vulcano can errupt every moment. You sit there with sweat in your hands to see if the rider can manage such a vulcano, and when he or she does, that combination is the winner, at least for the public, and since some years also for the judges. And the next thing you see is that horsetraders and potential buyers are gathering around these kind of horses. It's like Stephan Clark said at the press-conference after the WorldCup in LA, we want to see sparkles, and that's what I missed in Brentina.

Is it strange that more and more riders are buying these unguided missiles, since the public and the judges seem to love them.
Huh! BUT would not prper training have curtailed that behavior.. Sure you want pizzaz, but how about not one step from ballistic! :yes:

Horsedances
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:26 AM
Huh! BUT would not prper training have curtailed that behavior.. Sure you want pizzaz, but how about not one step from ballistic! :yes:

Does proper training mean to remove all the sparkles from a horse.
I seriously doubt that. To me the riders have to learn to handle these horses, without taking all the flash and sparkles away from him.

Yes, this is a new era, but certainly worth watching.

25 years ago, only classical music was used for the freestyle, today we see hip-hop, trance and Turkish belly-dance music. You can't stop this :cool:

Gaia
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:56 AM
After all these words, in the end, it comes down to wanting the show.
Correct Dressage is boring.

It is not very surprising that we have a hard time trying to understand each other.

nhwr
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:36 AM
The really great competitors (horses) are right on the edge, pushing. Balance, partnership, brilliance.... everything. The rides most people love to watch (and on be on board for) are the ones where the horse goes all out. A smooth ride is always satifying from the perspective of what it reflects. Some call it perfect harmony and submission. But where is the expression for the horse? Where is the drama? It isn't enough just to be correct. Watching a horse perform like a drone without any personality, it just isn't very exciting. In a true competitive partnership, the horse and rider want more.

The best score I ever got in my life, I got from a well known, highly respected S judge for a ride that felt like I was piloting a freight train loaded with dynamite. This horse was a turfbred TB with really good gaits and he was hot under the best of circumstances. But we were showing for the first time in a large arena with several hundred spectators. The judge congratulated me at lunch and said my horse was international quality. I laughed and said he'd better get a different rider. She said most riders shut a horse down in situations like that and don't let that brilliance come through (if the horse even has it) because they are afraid to ride "on the edge". I just wanted to stay out of his way because I didn't want to get bucked off in front of a crowd :lol: But I learned something that day - It is better to flame out than fade away.

alterforsaftey
Jun. 19, 2006, 11:19 AM
"Sannois
Schoolmaster
Huh! BUT would not prper training have curtailed that behavior.. Sure you want pizzaz, but how about not one step from ballistic! "

Have you ever owned a truly hot horse? (with sparkles or no sparkles as it matters not)

There are day you achieve great heights and other days that their personality (or volcano-ness) seems to over ride even the best training and partnership.

This is not a new fad (hot horses with sparkles, maybe there are more now) and if you look back over the last 25 years you can see past hot horses and in some cases they shined and in other they barley held on to their butts weather it be grand-prix jumping or dressage... BUT when they one they are hero's and when they lost it was bad luck as the horse has a on edge personality which is what "OFTEN" beings that greatness. There are very few "GREATS" out there that did not or do not have some sort of mild personality disorder or weird quirk.. Most of these are not horses the general public can ride.

YOU can not train out a spook or hotness out of a horse completely and said behavior is often brought out with stress of showing and the environment it brings.

DressageGuy
Jun. 19, 2006, 12:41 PM
Since when did dressage become about "the sparkles", and this explosiveness. I think it's just another step towards making dressage more for the masses. I'd rather watch Debbie ride Brentina ANY DAY, than watch Salinero about to explode. Why would I want to watch this tense, incorrect horse, over a lovely harmonious pair?

Noir
Jun. 19, 2006, 12:51 PM
Broncs are pretty explosive. You even get to see people get tossed.

T

SGray
Jun. 19, 2006, 01:56 PM
After watching the video and reading the millions of rollkur threads I decided to do an experiment!!! I practiced doing the dreaded rollkur.

Keep in mind I ride a Cob/TB event horse in a snaffle. I believe the bit has a great effect on the experiment.

Anyway, I tried to achieve the deep, through thing that people attempt to get when they do rollkur. My findings were that (and this is with my horse only) with a light contact and a lot of leg my horse would reach more down and in towards her chest. In fact, as she reached down I would give more and she would look for more contact, causing her to curl as in rollkur. It became a very elastic swingy feel which is what I suppose people are trying to get when they do this. My horse was a very supple round horse, certainly overbending but of her own accord.

In a snaffle I don't see how pulling would produce the rollkur posture. If the horse was unhappy it could easily evade the demands in this bit. It seems to me that in a curb it would be possible to get a bad version of this because of the lever action but that that would be an incorrect way to get the deep, round stretch because it would be forced.

My opinion after attempting it is this, if done correctly it is probably a stretch, not a punishment.

Also, I like Anky's horse in the video. To me he looks very workman like and relaxed. Of course he may have some things wrong as other posters have mentioned but who doesn't have issues? I think that until we can ride a test nearly as well as she does then we should not be so critical. Then again, maybe people are critical because they are just jealous that they can't ride a test as well as Anky can. I know I am!!!!

maybe the FEI could change the rules to ride the GP in snaffle (and the corresponding warmup), the GP Special in double and the kur in either

SGray
Jun. 19, 2006, 01:59 PM
edited to ask: are you only wanting to see kur rides or any GP ride?


recently my favorite kur ride has been hubertus schmidt and forest gump -

http://stuttgart-german-masters.de/bilder2005/sa_hubertus_kuer.wmv

you can see video here and there are other clips of kur rides too for comparison

http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2005/nov_stuttgart.html

in my opinion - anytime the hind cannon does not match the fore cannon - there is a problem

in my opinion - anytime the hind legs lift higher than the forelegs in piaffe or passage - there is a problem

SGray
Jun. 19, 2006, 02:01 PM
I just spend two day's at a hughe dressage-competition, and watched over 100 rides from training-level to GrandPrix.

The things that I noticed was that when a horse with a lot of sparkles (I call it the naughty boys/girls) came in to the arena all the public left the bar or restaurant to come an watch. After seeing so much horses who are (just) doing their test nicely, calmly, you just want to see these hot horses where the vulcano can errupt every moment. You sit there with sweat in your hands to see if the rider can manage such a vulcano, and when he or she does, that combination is the winner, at least for the public, and since some years also for the judges. And the next thing you see is that horsetraders and potential buyers are gathering around these kind of horses. It's like Stephan Clark said at the press-conference after the WorldCup in LA, we want to see sparkles, and that's what I missed in Brentina.

Is it strange that more and more riders are buying these unguided missiles, since the public and the judges seem to love them.

yes, many watch nascar for the wrecks

Karoline
Jun. 19, 2006, 03:51 PM
I just spend two day's at a hughe dressage-competition, and watched over 100 rides from training-level to GrandPrix.

The things that I noticed was that when a horse with a lot of sparkles (I call it the naughty boys/girls) came in to the arena all the public left the bar or restaurant to come an watch. After seeing so much horses who are (just) doing their test nicely, calmly, you just want to see these hot horses where the vulcano can errupt every moment. You sit there with sweat in your hands to see if the rider can manage such a vulcano, and when he or she does, that combination is the winner, at least for the public, and since some years also for the judges. And the next thing you see is that horsetraders and potential buyers are gathering around these kind of horses. It's like Stephan Clark said at the press-conference after the WorldCup in LA, we want to see sparkles, and that's what I missed in Brentina.

Is it strange that more and more riders are buying these unguided missiles, since the public and the judges seem to love them.

What does sitting on the edge of your seat waiting to see if the horse will bolt or launch its rider have to do with harmony?

sm
Jun. 19, 2006, 04:02 PM
"you sit there with sweat in your hands to see if the rider can manage such a vulcano, and when he or she does, that combination is the winner, at least for the public..."

You're in the wrong sport!! Try stadium jumping. Or -- I know -- long format cross country eventing. Steeplchasing?? Polo?? Leave dressage for people seeking harmony and that kind of homage to classical beauty.

belambi
Jun. 19, 2006, 04:07 PM
http://i6.tinypic.com/14wyfpy.jpg

interesting pic

SGray
Jun. 19, 2006, 04:12 PM
uuucckk

Jeepers
Jun. 19, 2006, 04:44 PM
that horse resembles a dachsund...that can't help

fiona
Jun. 19, 2006, 05:04 PM
who is it in the picture?

belambi
Jun. 19, 2006, 05:05 PM
Hubertus Scmidt..and wansuella suerta..

nhwr
Jun. 19, 2006, 05:19 PM
To see an excitable horse in a very stimulating environment focus on its rider and perform an upper level test pushing the limits of their ability all the way is a great demonstration of harmony and partnership :yes:

Nice one belambi ;)

Sannois
Jun. 19, 2006, 05:48 PM
[QUOTE=nhwr]To see an excitable horse in a very stimulating environment focus on its rider and perform an upper level test pushing the limits of their ability all the way is a great demonstration of harmony and partnership :
with nhwr..


Wow~ :eek: And Alter... I have owned a hot horse, more than one.. One never could really get it together and focus in a stressful situation, On again off again.. Stuff just jacked him up too much, and he never got used to it.. The other.. well he was just plain crazy! I am too old for that shit anymore!

JSwan
Jun. 19, 2006, 05:56 PM
Did anyone ever ask themselves if the horses are about to explode that maybe they don't like their job and would be more settled in another sport?




What does sitting on the edge of your seat waiting to see if the horse will bolt or launch its rider have to do with harmony?

Horsedances
Jun. 19, 2006, 06:08 PM
When Elvis exploded in his 1-tempi changes everybody liked it and thought it was so much fun to watch. And it was, and it always will be.

Watching all these sophisticated and well behaving horses is like watching the gras grow.

Isabell Werth stated at her last interview that there is a hughe difference between riding a Lada or a Ferrari (maybe she said Porsche).

BTW The Dutch Youngrider team won the Isabell Werth trophee this weekend in Germany, riding two lada's and two Ferrari's.:D

JSwan
Jun. 19, 2006, 06:16 PM
That's all well and fine - but it's a question other sports have to ask when they have a difficult horse - whether it's taking a break, or going back a level or two, or whatever.

Dunno. Just asking because it seems like these riders being interviewed keep going on about how this or that horse is the most difficult thing in the whole world, y'all keep going on about horses exploding, going ballistic, etc.

Then I see world class event horses standing quietly in the start box at the Olympic games........

Somehow that doesn't jibe with harmony. Hence the question.


When Elvis exploded in his 1-tempi changes everybody liked it and thought it was so much fun to watch. And it was, and it always will be.

Watching all these sophisticated and well behaving horses is like watching the gras grow.

Isabell Werth stated at her last interview that there is a hughe difference between riding a Lada or a Ferrari (maybe she said Porsche).

BTW The Dutch Youngrider team won the Isabell Werth trophee this weekend in Germany, riding two lada's and two Ferrari's.:D

sm
Jun. 19, 2006, 07:45 PM
The difficult horse theory I don't believe for a new york minute. Just a horse unblievably jacked up after a rough warm-up.

Just an attempt to attribute qualites to the rider that then can **handle** such a volcano. BS. Anyway, wasn't this registry bred for ridablity? These horses are drilled in the movements til they're robots.

It's the case of that old story of the emperor with new clothes. We're supposed to applaud the rider for wonderful "mastery" of a volcano? Yep, and I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'll like to sell you.

News flash: Ever notice how one inept rider can get this "hot horse" result while another rider can have the same horse humming along happy and delightful?

nhwr
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:09 PM
To me a hot horse is sensative and prone to be over stimulated easily. But who says hot=difficult neccessarily?

And yes sm it is interesting how a good rider can get more out of a hot horse. Salinero was basically labelled as a rogue before Anky got him :yes:

JSwan
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:16 PM
I didn't say they were getting more out of a hot horse.

I said maybe the horse didn't like its job and needed to do something else.

You'd think all these top riders would be able to get their hands on nicer horses than rogues.


To me a hot horse is sensative and prone to be over stimulated easily. But who says hot=difficult neccessarily?

And yes sm it is interesting how a good rider can get more out of a hot horse. Salinero was basically labelled as a rogue before Anky got him :yes:

mbm
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:58 PM
And yes sm it is interesting how a good rider can get more out of a hot horse. Salinero was basically labelled as a rogue before Anky got him :yes:

if i remember correctly, I read that Salinero has been in AVGs barn since he was a yougn horse. he was bought after he placed at the Bundeschampionships (sp) as a jumper prospect for one of AVG/SJs clients. once AVG/SJ got a look at him working they decided to keep him themselves..... there was not one word mentioned about him being a 'rogue"

I will seee if i can find this interview..... I *think* it was here on the COTH....

mbm
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:01 PM
http://i6.tinypic.com/14wyfpy.jpg

interesting pic

belambi - i am curious what your point was in posting this pic??

beejoux
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:21 PM
MBM, I recall reading the same thing you did about Salinero. He was a top young horse. Anky didn't like him, not because he was a rogue, but because he was boring. Her own stable girl said that he is very quiet in the stables, and very laid back, if I recall the interview correctly. Ergo, he must be ridden to be "hot". Elsewise, why would he be so explosive and require such harsh riding?

I read on one of the bulletin boards one time, someone once noted that they had never heard of AvG ever riding a mare to any level of competition. At the time, nobody really responded to it. Some might not have understood the significance of the statement. I wonder if the "straightjacket" training style would get beyond the first week with a mare. They are the ultimate "fairness nazis" and will absolutely rebel against person who tries to bully them, unlike most geldings, and even many stallions.

Because if rollkur is not abuse, it's certainly bullying the horse into submission.

Hony
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:36 PM
SGray: Maybe they should be ridden in a snaffle although I don't think it would bring the refinement that the double allows.
I just think that it is not good to blacklist a method of training because some people do it poorly.

belambi
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:51 PM
something weird going on on this bb..I posted that link on another thread..basically pointing out that even those who are referred to as super classical riders..have moments of dachsundness,,
dont know how it ended up here?

Jeepers
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:07 PM
something weird going on on this bb..I posted that link on another thread..basically pointing out that even those who are referred to as super classical riders..have moments of dachsundness,,
dont know how it ended up here?

:lol: I didn't see where you said that, I seriously thought he looked like one! Great minds think alike :p

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/08_Overview_of_Gait/Images/Gait%20fig%208%20thumbnail.JPG
apparantly with dachsund moments in a trot you can still have suspension :p ;)

Horsedances
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:12 PM
MBM, I recall reading the same thing you did about Salinero. He was a top young horse. Anky didn't like him, not because he was a rogue, but because he was boring. Her own stable girl said that he is very quiet in the stables, and very laid back, if I recall the interview correctly. Ergo, he must be ridden to be "hot". Elsewise, why would he be so explosive and require such harsh riding?

I read on one of the bulletin boards one time, someone once noted that they had never heard of AvG ever riding a mare to any level of competition. At the time, nobody really responded to it. Some might not have understood the significance of the statement. I wonder if the "straightjacket" training style would get beyond the first week with a mare. They are the ultimate "fairness nazis" and will absolutely rebel against person who tries to bully them, unlike most geldings, and even many stallions.

Because if rollkur is not abuse, it's certainly bullying the horse into submission.

You found out that you were on everybody's ignore-list, and decided to create an alter :D

Karoline
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:37 PM
And yes sm it is interesting how a good rider can get more out of a hot horse. Salinero was basically labelled as a rogue before Anky got him :yes:

But then we had posters from Germany, Kareen in fact: vet/trainer/breeder who posted that Salinero did the young horse championships and was not noted for having problems. That reputation as a rogue was acquired once he was bought by an American and ended up with Anky who thought he was just too big and fat to want to ride.

beejoux
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:15 AM
You found out that you were on everybody's ignore-list, and decided to create an alter :D
Theo, aren't you the one that used to have the signature quote about a lie traveling twice around the world before the truth gets his shoes on? Now you are the one spreading rumors and lies, but then again, that's what you do, isn't it? You throw out little lies here and rumors there, and watch the train wrecks happen... :roll: Why don't you try truth once in a while?


Watching all these sophisticated and well behaving horses is like watching the gras grow.
This is a very sad statement. If watching Dressage is like watching grass grow, then the spectators should be watching jumping or something. Why do we have to pervert Dressage to make it more exciting for the spectators? :no:

Alagirl
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:23 AM
MBM, I recall reading the same thing you did about Salinero. He was a top young horse. Anky didn't like him, not because he was a rogue, but because he was boring. Her own stable girl said that he is very quiet in the stables, and very laid back, if I recall the interview correctly. Ergo, he must be ridden to be "hot". Elsewise, why would he be so explosive and require such harsh riding?

I read on one of the bulletin boards one time, someone once noted that they had never heard of AvG ever riding a mare to any level of competition. At the time, nobody really responded to it. Some might not have understood the significance of the statement. I wonder if the "straightjacket" training style would get beyond the first week with a mare. They are the ultimate "fairness nazis" and will absolutely rebel against person who tries to bully them, unlike most geldings, and even many stallions.

Because if rollkur is not abuse, it's certainly bullying the horse into submission.

EEK I think I'm gonna thow up!

But feeding grain till it comes out of their ears will warm them up, too!

sm
Jun. 20, 2006, 06:43 AM
You don't crank and spank a hot horse in warm-up, doing everything possible to build tension. You can spend 40 minutes pushing all the buttons to get a mild horse "hot" though. Or a horse trained to the point of being a robot "hot." I've seen Sal's expression enough, he's been bullied IMHO. Yes, this makes perfect sense:

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post 144:"MBM, I recall reading the same thing you did about Salinero. He was a top young horse. Anky didn't like him, not because he was a rogue, but because he was boring. Her own stable girl said that he is very quiet in the stables, and very laid back, if I recall the interview correctly. Ergo, he must be ridden to be "hot". Elsewise, why would he be so explosive and require such harsh riding?

I read on one of the bulletin boards one time, someone once noted that they had never heard of AvG ever riding a mare to any level of competition. At the time, nobody really responded to it. Some might not have understood the significance of the statement. I wonder if the "straightjacket" training style would get beyond the first week with a mare. They are the ultimate "fairness nazis" and will absolutely rebel against person who tries to bully them, unlike most geldings, and even many stallions.

Because if rollkur is not abuse, it's certainly bullying the horse into submission."

****

Noir
Jun. 20, 2006, 07:05 AM
if i remember correctly, I read that Salinero has been in AVGs barn since he was a yougn horse. he was bought after he placed at the Bundeschampionships (sp) as a jumper prospect for one of AVG/SJs clients. once AVG/SJ got a look at him working they decided to keep him themselves..... there was not one word mentioned about him being a 'rogue"

I will seee if i can find this interview..... I *think* it was here on the COTH....

That would be interesting. I have read that he has been trained by both Holger Schulze and Holga Finken, and I wonder if they would call him a rogue? Or did he become a bit spoiled by some buyer who just bought too much horse for their own good, like a lot of character strong horses naturally would be too, in the same situation? He seemed to go through the finals of the 5-yo championships with Holger Schulze just fine. Anyone know Schulze or Finken and can ask?

Theresa

Sannois
Jun. 20, 2006, 07:14 AM
You mean like the dog??? I missed something! :D :eek: :lol: :winkgrin: