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Coreene
Jun. 15, 2006, 04:18 PM
In December, the magazine In De Strengen did a roundtable discussion with IDRC president Margit Otto-Crépin, Sjef Janssen, former Chef and trainer Johann Hinnemann, international jury member Christoph Hessand KWPN communications person Maria Henneman. They call it “round and deep” instead of “rollkur."

Here’s some translation (more to come)

Margit Otto-Crépin (60) knows her stuff and knows classic training. There is nothing new that she hasn’t seen before.

She tells the tale of Paul Pflinzer, who kept the horses belonging to a one-handed German Kaiser light and obedient. “’Pflinzering’ is what we called it years ago, when we rode round and deep,” said Margit. “I always rode my horses round and deep,” added the French rider, who is best known for her partnership with the strong Holsteiner Corlando (Cor de la Bryère). This partnership won the European championships at Goodwood in 1987 and the World Cup at Gothenburg in 1989. When she would ride her powerful Holsteiner in indoor arenas, such as the World Cup final, all the show jumpers would watch her controlling this giant with the mere touch of a finger.

“I always rode round and deep,” said Margit. “And all my trainers made me do this as well. At the Cadre Noir in 1970: round and deep. At Robert Schmidtke’s in 1975: round and deep. At Fritz Templemann’s: round and deep. At Dr. Schulten Baumer’s: round and deep. The neck had to lower from the withers to bring the back up and round. Anky and Sjef have a slightly different method, but theirs is round and deep as well. And for me, that is also classic."

Sjef added, re those who tried round and deep by yanking and kicking, “That is bad riding and we are against that. When I see a rider kicking and yanking, it makes me angry. That has absolutely nothing to do with riding round and deep. And the so-called “classic riders” do just as much kicking and yanking. Trying to copy leading people in a sport, and doing it wrong, is something you see in all sports, and that is something we need to try and educate people about. At our barn, long and deep is not yank, kick, yank, kick.”

siegi b.
Jun. 15, 2006, 05:16 PM
Hi Coreene,

This article is way too realistic and logical for some of the folks on this board. They do not want to be confused with facts but would rather continue their heated, circular discussions based on emotions and perceived dressage ideals.

Looking forward to the continuation of this article,
Siegi

SGray
Jun. 15, 2006, 05:35 PM
I don't believe that holding a horse in 'bite-me/bite-you' position is any more classical than tieing his nose to his tail in the stall overnight is

MyReality
Jun. 15, 2006, 05:41 PM
Very interesting. I actually have heard about that argument before. Thanks for translating.

fiona
Jun. 15, 2006, 05:43 PM
don't believe that holding a horse in 'bite-me/bite-you' position is any more classical than tieing his nose to his tail in the stall overnight is

Or tieing him to a couple of pillars and making him dance on the spot?

Edited to add:

That was actually another cheap one liner which siegi would have got, i quoted becuase there was a post between. Lighten up sebastian you're late to the party.

Sebastian
Jun. 15, 2006, 05:46 PM
Or tieing him to a couple of pillars and making him dance on the spot?
Oh puleeeze...

As a firm believer of "actions speak louder than words" -- I can't take Sjef's comments seriously after seeing the video of Anky warming up...

Seb

fiona
Jun. 15, 2006, 06:00 PM
see above.

Sebastian
Jun. 15, 2006, 06:08 PM
see above.

Still doesn't make sense... I will presume it's an inside joke... Again...whatever...

Not late to anything, been watching and reading this debate for sometime...
Seb

JSwan
Jun. 15, 2006, 06:30 PM
Oh puleeeze...

As a firm believer of "actions speak louder than words" -- I can't take Sjef's comments seriously after seeing the video of Anky warming up...

Seb


Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

Continue on with the impending trainwreck.

professor
Jun. 15, 2006, 07:22 PM
IMHO it is more abusive to start your horse 3 classes higher then they can handle.

DressageGuy
Jun. 15, 2006, 07:42 PM
Well of course they're going to try to deflect attention from the fact that they're doing exactly what they are saying NOT to do. My gosh, we have VIDEOS, not even just pictures anymore, of Anky kicking and pulling on these horses with unbelievable distorted gaits, and yet that's exactly what they're saying they're not doing. Does he really think people are going to support his views for much longer?

JSwan
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:18 PM
IMHO it is more abusive to start your horse 3 classes higher then they can handle.

You know - I can't help if your some poster's evil twin Skippy or something. Was anyone here discussing the virtues or evils of competing at a higher level that your horse is ready for?

No.

So why did you bring it up, or are we going to get into degrees of "abuse" - this abuse is worse than "my abuse" so it's ok. That one was already done to death although it's still simmering if you care to go over there and poke the coals.

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:24 PM
This horse is SOOOOO dead its got maggots crawling on it.
We can talk till we are blue in the face, but come on, face it, we are wrong, and they are right! Even though all the articles and statements by sj are contradictory to what the Videos show! This will all come out in the wash some day! :yes:

trailblazzer
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:42 PM
So if someone with a foreign accent says something, it must be true? Rollkur/straightjacket/deep/pflinzering is bad horsemanship, and the results prove it. Period. I don't care who practices it. Some people seem to think that if they get enough "authorities" to endorse bad horsemanship, those of us with common sense will abandon our ways and start to endore it as well. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

Trakehners2000
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:04 AM
Everyone is going to bear there own opinion on this, odviously.
We watched a well known Olympic rider training piaffe steps on
Dressage Today, and kept wondering when where they ever going
to reward the horse.... poor horse couldn't figure out what was going
on, felt so sorry for him and kept hoping they would give him a break,
though they just kept pushing pushing pushing. This person doesn't
ride/train 'deep'.....and I would guess that many of you think she is
great...though if she were judged by that one tape....

Karoline
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:34 AM
Margrit is german by birth, French by marriage

1972: The Cadre Noir is demilitarized and becomes in part The Ecole Nationale d' Equitation with the mandate to keep the french riding tradition alive and train the riders and instructors of the future. The ENE is not in Saumur but inTerrefort, near Saumur.

The Cadre Noir itself remains a small group of 45 riders who are accepted upon an exam vs. being appointed and are led by an Ecuyer en Chef.

1984: The Cadre Noir de Saumur first woman to to wear the black uniform is Florence Labram

The doctrine of the school is General L'Hotte: "A calm, forward, straight horse".

Christian Carde, Cadre Noir ecuyer en chef from 1991-1999 has spoken publicly against rolkur and has founded Dressage Allege-Ideal to defend the principles of dressage and requests a strict application of FEI rules in dressage competitions, particularly article 401.

I think he, along with people like Phillipe Karl, Michel Henriquet, Jean D'Orgeix, basically the pillars of the french riding school who support Carde would scream heresy at anyone who suggests the Cadre Noir supports rolkur, or riding BTV.

I do not see Margrit saying rolkur is ok, I see her say round and deep is ok, I wish she was more specific.

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:45 AM
Still doesn't make sense... I will presume it's an inside joke... Again...whatever...

Not late to anything, been watching and reading this debate for sometime...
Seb


that's the very problem- you are about to be misinformed and there is no way that can be avoided...:LOL!

Good article and thank you for posting it Coreene. I am especially fond of Margit- as she has ridden my horse's dad to great honors (Loutano) and I have great respect for her....see here...http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov742.m1v

Karoline
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:49 AM
She is an excellent rider, no doubt about it.

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:52 AM
Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

Continue on with the impending trainwreck.

Jswan - if you can ride anything like the little video clip I just posted from Margit- you go ahead and post that- all I can make out from your profile is a draft horse cross dressed up to do some heavy duty cross country riding - more like the field hunting style and a rider that rides in a hunt seat with short stirups and rolled up legs...where do you get your incredible dressage experience from???

Kyzteke
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:54 AM
If these horses were being controlled by "the mere touch of a finger" they wouldn't have their mouth gaping open, their lips pulled taut and the reins being hauled backwards.

It's more like a "touch of a backhoe..."

nhwr
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:05 AM
And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.
I have seen Margit ride a few times. I hope I look that good (on or off a horse) when I am her age. She has been in the warm up ring with Anky enough to know exactly what is going on.
It seems a bit presumptuous to suggest otherwise.

sabryant
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:09 AM
Nice article Coreene! Thank you

Jswan
I sure wish you would stop mis-quoting me! I never said I used force while training. It is positively spooky that you keep bringing up my name with false accusations in your posts!



Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

Continue on with the impending trainwreck.

siegi b.
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:32 AM
sabryant - some folks on these RK threads are on what I call "continuous loop" - they continue saying the same nonsense ad nauseum because that's all they know. You really can't take them seriously...

I'm sure you read the "contribution" by Little Filly where she condemns RK as brutal, yet in the same breath she asks for ideas to keep her newly imported horse that suffers in the Florida heat, going in several classes at a show. I guess it's better for a horse to get heat stroke than to "hyperflex" it's neck.

If ignorance is bliss, then there must be a bunch of extremely happy people on this BB.

slc2
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:36 AM
LOL!

slc2
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:38 AM
magrit? lol. maaahgrit!

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:45 AM
sabryant - you said that it required strength to tell a young horse how to find it's balance. If you were misinterpreted, you certainly didn't do a good job explaining yourself.

You said that you needed an equal amount of hand and leg, and as long as they were equal, it didn't matter.

That being said, it's still debatable whether you are talking about f/d/o or the extreme rollkur that we saw in the videos. What we saw was a nose touching the chest and the horse being forced (yes, not coerced "lightly") to do piaffe, canter transitions, etc. in this position. For 5 minutes I watched one horse and there was no release of the face.

Tell me how this jives, if you would. Thank you very much - I'm trying VERY hard to understand where you are coming from.

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:53 AM
sabryant - I wasn't "quoting" you. Call it paraphrasing. But like I said before - I'm not really interested in your "method" because honestly, I just fired a vet and farrier who shared this view that force is necessary with young horses.

Funny - the new vet and the new farrier, who don't subscribe to this theory - have had no trouble with the young horse. And since I never use force or strength in young horses trying to find their balance under saddle or on the longe - amazingly they manage to turn into good citizens that are balanced relaxed and responsive under saddle. That's the purpose of dressage, after all.

It may be coincidence, it may be blind luck, it may be that I am god's gift to the world and haven't been discovered yet. But I most sincerely doubt I am anything other than a fat menopausal cat lady who was taught differently than you. Much differently.




sabryant - you said that it required strength to tell a young horse how to find it's balance. If you were misinterpreted, you certainly didn't do a good job explaining yourself.

You said that you needed an equal amount of hand and leg, and as long as they were equal, it didn't matter.

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:06 AM
Jswan - if you can ride anything like the little video clip I just posted from Margit- you go ahead and post that- all I can make out from your profile is a draft horse cross dressed up to do some heavy duty cross country riding - more like the field hunting style and a rider that rides in a hunt seat with short stirups and rolled up legs...where do you get your incredible dressage experience from???


Hmmm - you know- you can insult me all you fu**ing want - but don't EVER EVER insult my horse.

If you like, I'll say the same thing in French. Or German. Or Italian. Or Russian. Just so you don't think that every American in this country is some backwater provincial. Or should we wait until my memere visits in August from her home in - gasp - Paris, France - so we can tag team and try and match you in your "bored sophisticated European" act?

Get this - Muenchen frau - that photo is of - gasp - us out FOXHUNTING. I don't know many people who foxhunt in a dressage saddle.

Would you rather I posted a picture of myself weeding my vegetable garden?

If you're ever in Virginia - I'll loan you a horse. But be warned - you actually have to be able to ride on an uneven surface. You might chip a nail or smudge your lipstick.

Oh and by the way - I never said anything about Margit's riding.

HXF
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:09 AM
I most sincerely doubt I am anything other than a fat menopausal cat lady

Paraphrasing in action.:D

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:19 AM
Paraphrasing in action.:D


Humility is one virtue that is completely lacking in this forum - you see - I'm merely saying that I don't have to act "a part". Seems to me there is a lot of "puffing" of credentials, name dropping, etc. Pretty prententious.

It's ok to be a fat menopausal cat lady and still know a lot about dressage. The two are not mutually exclusive, nor is having a sense of humour about ones physical appearance.

Do any of you realize that some of the posters who are so adamant about this issue are also well known respected professionals?

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:43 AM
Originally Posted by J Swan
I most sincerely doubt I am anything other than a fat menopausal cat lady

Paraphrasing in action.:D

That's not paraphrasing at all!

Main Entry: 1para·phrase http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?paraph04.wav=paraphrase'))
Pronunciation: 'par-&-"frAz
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Latin paraphrasis, from Greek, from paraphrazein to paraphrase, from para- + phrazein to point out
1 : a restatement of a text, passage, or work giving the meaning in another form
2 : the use or process of paraphrasing (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/paraphrasing) in studying or teaching composition

That means saying the SAME THING in another form. Not making the meaning the opposite. Good gravy.

Sabine - why are you so venemous? You are certainly not proving your point in my eyes. Nor is sabryant, who I am desperately trying to understand. We are reflecting what we read - if you meant something else

BY ALL MEANS EXPLAIN IT.

However, sabryant continued to insist that men rode with "strength" and that women need rollkur to "keep up". The posts have been edited since (by sabryant, who did admit it, thank you sabryant) to make them more clear - but to me, it's still not clear how sabryant rides since on one hand she defends rollkur and calls her method riding deep - yet other hand sounds like she's doing f/d/o.

Which is it?

sabryant yesterday (was it yesterday) got hysterical claiming that WE were the ones shooting nasty comments. I'd like to venture a guess that not one of you can point out a nasty comment that I've made. I continue to try to understand you, as has just about every "anti" in each of the threads and all I hear is "woe is us, everyone is being mean - they don't get it - they aren't european (which is a hysterical presumption by the way)"

Malarkey!

slc2
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:50 AM
that's because you ARE shooting nasty comments, lol.

jswan, the person was describing your horse, which indeed does look like a draft cross, which are quite frequently used for field hunters, which you say is what you were doing, so what exactly are you getting all effy about?

and finally, NO, this is NOT done because these women are 'weak' or to 'keep up with the men', that is the most ridiculous thing i ever heard of in my life, and to me is just another part of the alternative universe you guys have invented.

slc

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:04 PM
slc, read the tone of Sabine's comment to JSwan. It certainly was not complimentary of her horse or her. In fact, it was doubting that JSwan even knew how to ride - to QUOTE (not paraphrase) "all I can make out from your profile is a draft horse cross dressed up to do some heavy duty cross country riding "

That isn't exactly complimentary based on the first sentence of the para.

Pommederue
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:05 PM
This horse is SOOOOO dead its got maggots crawling on it.
This is soooo true!

Wow J Swan. I don't think Sabine insulted your horse, she simply pointed out that he appeared to be a draft cross. And while we're on the subject, it appears that you're only hill topping from the photo although I know photos are only a moment in time. Anyway, I have been fox hunting and I can tell you that it is and extreme sport...harder on the horse that anything I have ever done! Several hours of running over hard ground and then through thick mud. The horses are tattered and exhausted by the end. I just can't believe you would engage in that sport and have anything at all to say about someone else's method of training.

MyReality
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:30 PM
Round and deep, I've seen it, is not how Andy et el does it. And the article is interesting because it tries to draw attention that round and deep has been used and deemed useful. The way I see it, it does not present the context of how it is performed and I would never speculate this is equal to RK. How round, how deep, and what you do in a 'round and deep' frame (halt, walk, or piaffe?)... don't you guys want to know vs. cat fighting with each other?

I have seen 'round and deep' practiced in Europe.. BUT IN HALT ONLY. The flexing is like a carrot stretch... horses are taught to bend down all the way over with nose touching under their chest, while lifting their back but at the stand still... when spur pressure are applied (and quite a heavy amount of spur as well). Horses also flex their necks both sides. There is no mistake this is not RK.

I would be very curious to find out, if this 'round and deep', is what the article is talking about and if it was practiced also when horse is in motion.

I am pretty sure 'round and deep' has been around for a while... it is not an Anky thing. I also heard from breeder that big WB's vertabrae are tight (??), round and deep could help supple the horse, so it has to do with the horse's confromation. But it is true, I did not study this theory any further nor did I find out how it is done.

I don't understand why you guys are so excited about each other. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but please show emotional maturity. I hate it when people lump all dressage riders as bad or do not respect it as a specialised discipline. I gave a lesson to a person who is not in dressage, she told me it's the best riding she's ever had on her horse (happy!)... that's dressage for you. What can I say? Too bad dressage has been frustrating for you! I suggest you find a better trainer and stop pretending to do dressage. I would really like to see those mouthy people, demonstrate they could ride and teach and manage horses.

egontoast
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:33 PM
please show emotional maturity

and pigs might fly someday too

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:36 PM
You're right. The post was intended to denigrate me, not the horse. Who did solid 2nd level work - as well as evented at Novice - not much - but I daresay should folks start picking on the backbone of every sport - the lower level amateur - you'd probably have some very interesting responses from the many many people on COTH who will never step on an Olympic podium.

That photo was taken at a check and was emailed to me as a gift by the photographer. I like the photographer - nice person. It was a nice gesture, too. If you have really been foxhunting, you'd know what a check is - the horses - whether hilltopping or first flight - are pretty still. Indeed - if the photo was taken of me galloping across a hayfield you would still not be able to discern in what field I was riding. Not that it matters - because I ride to hunt - I don't see foxhunting as a social statement.

Now - in case I need to ride a WB to qualify to make any comments about dressage, I can dig around and find an old picture of my Hano mare. But this photo - I thought it was nice - and besides - I didn't have to scan it - it was a jpg sent to me. Heck - might as well get some use out of that premium membership!

So if doesn't offend anyone - I think I'll continue to cherish it as a nice picture of me and a beloved mount. If you don't like it - well - you'll live.

I think that the point of relative abuse has been done to death, and I suggest strongly that any discussion of foxhunting be taken to the foxhunting forum - because it's off season and there are folks with nothing else to do except correct your mistaken impression of hunting.

Unless we'd like to start bashing field hunters - in which case I'll stay. Because I'd get a good laugh over DQ's trashing another sport - particularly since the "tattered and exhausted" is a big load of sh**.

If you like - I'll wander over to FOL and let them know y'all are about to denigrate yet another sport as well - to take away from any meaningful, intelligent debate about a training method that even the FEI is a bit concerned about.

That'll be good for a LOT of laughs - we were just posting about how dull it is now that the season's over. It will particularly be of interest to the fieldhunters who do things like dressage with their field hunters. Egad - fieldhunters doing dressage - whodathunk it.








This is soooo true!

Wow J Swan. I don't think Sabine insulted your horse, she simply pointed out that he appeared to be a draft cross. And while we're on the subject, it appears that you're only hill topping from the photo although I know photos are only a moment in time. Anyway, I have been fox hunting and I can tell you that it is and extreme sport...harder on the horse that anything I have ever done! Several hours of running over hard ground and then through thick mud. The horses are tattered and exhausted by the end. I just can't believe you would engage in that sport and have anything at all to say about someone else's method of training.

slc2
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:38 PM
tone, shmone, you guys find tone where there is none. your deal is to derail the discussion with moral outrage about your horsey pooh any time it looks like you're losing the discussion. this is at the very least the most idiotic turn these discussions have ever taken. for god's sake, the horse DOES look like a draft horse, and you who don't look like a dressage rider at all, are out there trashing riders in another division in which you have NO involvement and constantly profess to hate, that's like wearing a sign that says 'kick me', it's going to happen eventually that someone is going to tell you fox hunting is pretty damn hard on a horse too, because it IS, galloping at speed over country and jumping IS hard on a horse, ask any RATIONAL fox hunter and they will tell you the same. there is a reason people usually have a horse take turns and don't gallop their a**** off every day.

go drink some alcohol. on second thought, maybe not. you might be worse with a hangover! :lol:

slc

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:39 PM
What can I say? Too bad dressage has been frustrating for you! I suggest you find a better trainer and stop pretending to do dressage. I would really like to see those mouthy people, demonstrate they could ride and teach and manage horses.

Which mouthy people?

*smile*

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:39 PM
Sabine - was that not intended to poke at JSwan?

There slc, I asked directly.

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:50 PM
Oakesbrae - give it up. I know this person from way back on the UDBB years ago - and she hasn't changed except that she doesn't talk about Zen as much.

If I posted an old picture of my mare, or the draft cross doing dressage - the jabs wouldn't have been any different. Or wait - then we could have talked about how fat people have no business riding! That's always a charged subject.

and slc - Sabine initiated that - not me. I don't see this as a win/lose thing, nor am I keeping score. The subject matter is of interest to me - although I think some of us are more interested in scoring off each other. My posts to the contrary - I really just visit this forum to keep apprised of what's going on in the dressage world.

I can see that perhaps the FEI needs to overhaul this sport a bit.

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:13 PM
Awww, I like talking about Zen. :D

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:17 PM
Awww, I like talking about Zen. :D

Me too - but my version of the Dharma must differ from slc's - not that I'm any better at following the eightfold path to enlightenment.

Perhaps it's karma - and I'm destined to be reborn as a yellow toed salamander. Geez - I was hoping to at least be a frog, or maybe a turtle....

Pommederue
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:18 PM
Unless we'd like to start bashing field hunters - in which case I'll stay. Because I'd get a good laugh over DQ's trashing another sport - particularly since the "tattered and exhausted" is a big load of sh**.
Don't get me wrong...I'm not slamming fox hunting. Heck, I came home tattered and exhausted as well! My face had scrapes from branches hitting me while we were running. The horse's legs had some cuts too as I had been told that leg wraps weren't a good idea for various reasons. I had a blast and would do it again in a minute if I lived closer to Chagrin Valley. The horses seemed to have a blast too but it was freakin way harder on them then stretching their neck in so called hyperflexion:lol:

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:33 PM
Don't get me wrong...I'm not slamming fox hunting. Heck, I came home tattered and exhausted as well! My face had scrapes from branches hitting me while we were running. The horse's legs had some cuts too as I had been told that leg wraps weren't a good idea for various reasons. I had a blast and would do it again in a minute if I lived closer to Chagrin Valley. The horses seemed to have a blast too but it was freakin way harder on them then stretching their neck in so called hyperflexion:lol:

Okay - I take back all my "menopausal cat lady" inspired comments.

I don't use any leg protection either - but I know people who do. I think one factor may be territory - in some areas the mud and grit that gets in the wraps/boots could mess up a horse's legs way worse than a thorn.

Ever been hit in the face with a bell boot that the horse in front of you lost? OWWWW...

As far as conditioning - well - books have been written on that, haven't they. If you take up hunting - you'll find that those horses - though tired - haven't been ridden into the ground (although like any sport you see some riders that really should take up golf) - but generally they've been properly legged up and conditioned - roaded if they could, then cubbing starts - which slowly builds up to the formal season, etc.

But it's not - hey it's hunting season jump on the horse and gallop for 4 hours 3 times a week. Indeed - that would be cause for derisive comments - and I'd be right up there in front wagging my finger.

And though it may seem I'm in the camp that says rollkur is punishable by death - I'm really not. I'm just questioning the merit of its application and use in the dressage horse - as evidenced by those videos.

Otherwise - these days I'm very contented to use our lowly 2nd level knowledge in the hunt field. And I must say - riding a balanced, supple horse in the hunt field is a real pleasure - no matter what breed it is.

Now - if the horse in that picture, and my fat butt could not be terrified of certain jumps - I'd say we were a pretty good foxhunting pair. But honestly - in certain fixtures I just hilltop. I don't want any more back surgery, and my lack of confidence over some of those jumps is really unfair to my horse.

Now - let's move back to figuring out what level of hyperflexion we can agree may be beneficial, if any. My pathetic attempts to defend my favorite picture of my horse, will no doubt just result in more ridicule.

And if I wanted to be ridiculed, I'd call my mother or my mother in law. They're much better at it than les femmes formidable on the COTHBB.

Coreene
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:42 PM
I need to get the photos of Sjef riding scanned; the ones that are in the article. Where he's showing the rest of their round and deep riding. Which I can't imagine can be objectionable for anyone, save for the fact that he is wearing these seriously unattractive maroon-purple breeches and matching fleece top.

I like Sjef. I like Anky. I like Edward and Arjen and Tieneke and Imke and Coby and Laurens, and all my other countrymen who are standing atop the podium more and more. And when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back. I think this whole rollkur bullshit is a rehash of the attacks on Nicole and the attacks on Isabel, but it's fueled even stronger now because the German who started flapping her jaws about it hates Anky for various reasons, including the fact that she's not German, and is basking the publicity she's getting from stirring the pot. Because if this was a German rider, she never would have started the flap that's going on now.

JMHO, of course.

Sebastian
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:47 PM
that's the very problem- you are about to be misinformed and there is no way that can be avoided...:LOL!

Good article and thank you for posting it Coreene. I am especially fond of Margit- as she has ridden my horse's dad to great honors (Loutano) and I have great respect for her....see here...http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov742.m1v
Misinformed, about what?? :confused:

Seb

Daydream Believer
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:03 PM
IAnd when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back.
JMHO, of course.

Respectfully...before you can compare how you feel holding your chin on your chest sitting in front of a computer, put on a back pack of 50 lbs or so and do the same thing while running in circles for 20 minutes and see how you feel after that. Be sure to turn your head from side to side at the same time also. I'll take a bet that if you do you won't be able to lift your head the next morning and you'll be very uncomfortable in a few minutes. ;) Even if you build up to it gradually, over time, carrying your body in such an unnatural position will cause other parts compensating for your out of balance posture to ache also. Just imagine if you had no choice in the matter too and you couldn't stop and lift your chin to take a break when you felt the need?

It's hard to compare a persons physiology to a horse's like this because we are built differently, it's something to think about.


JSwan...give them heck. What a nice kind sweet looking horse...just my type! I'll take up you invitation for a ride someday! I LOVE a good run across rough country! :D

Sebastian
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:06 PM
And when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back.

I agree with you on this point...and equate this type of stretch to "carrot stretching" while my horse is standing still. A good thing, that even I practice...lol.

My issue with Rollkur is that it's done in motion, for extended periods of time. In my mind the analogy is more like -- tying my chin to my chest and then jogging around the block for 1/2 an hour... THAT would be painful... My other problem is that the horse is being given VERY mixed signals...which I find detrimental to the horse mentally. I understand low and deep -- and sometimes utilize it occasionally myself on young horses that need to develop their backs...but usually I do it on the lunge or with longlines. But, I can't think of it as a "way of life" -- especially for upper level horses.

And regarding the article, as I stated previously, actions speak louder than words. And, Sjef's words don't match the ride Anky is doing. I don't really give a wit about these people, personally, I just think it's bad riding. I've seen bad riding in the Jumpers as well, but the nice thing about bad riding in Jumpers is, it's objective and not generally rewarded for long. Luck runs out...lol.

JMO
Seb :)

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:27 PM
Hmmm - you know- you can insult me all you fu**ing want - but don't EVER EVER insult my horse.

If you like, I'll say the same thing in French. Or German. Or Italian. Or Russian. Just so you don't think that every American in this country is some backwater provincial. Or should we wait until my memere visits in August from her home in - gasp - Paris, France - so we can tag team and try and match you in your "bored sophisticated European" act?

Get this - Muenchen frau - that photo is of - gasp - us out FOXHUNTING. I don't know many people who foxhunt in a dressage saddle.

Would you rather I posted a picture of myself weeding my vegetable garden?

If you're ever in Virginia - I'll loan you a horse. But be warned - you actually have to be able to ride on an uneven surface. You might chip a nail or smudge your lipstick.

Oh and by the way - I never said anything about Margit's riding.

JSwan- you just made my day- I really got a great laugh of your reply!! All in good jest- and yes if I ever come to Virginia- I'll ride with you....watch out though- them Germs are hardcore...might put some scrapes on them lovely draft crosses...!!

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
I need to get the photos of Sjef riding scanned; the ones that are in the article. Where he's showing the rest of their round and deep riding. Which I can't imagine can be objectionable for anyone, save for the fact that he is wearing these seriously unattractive maroon-purple breeches and matching fleece top.

I like Sjef. I like Anky. I like Edward and Arjen and Tieneke and Imke and Coby and Laurens, and all my other countrymen who are standing atop the podium more and more. And when I sit here and put my chin to my chest, I feel a great stretching through my neck and back. I think this whole rollkur bullshit is a rehash of the attacks on Nicole and the attacks on Isabel, but it's fueled even stronger now because the German who started flapping her jaws about it hates Anky for various reasons, including the fact that she's not German, and is basking the publicity she's getting from stirring the pot. Because if this was a German rider, she never would have started the flap that's going on now.

JMHO, of course.


Sure - hey - got no problem with that. But even many moons ago - I didn't care much for the growing popularity of "deepness". Not because it was against some rule in dusty book somewhere - but because this method just seemed to result in an overbent restricted horse trailing his hindquarters. "A general in front, but no army marching behind" - I think someone "important" said once. And its evolution - into an extreme crank and spank - because really - that's how I see it - just - in my eyes - has an artificial and exaggerated result.

I'd say the same if the videos had been of an American, or a German, a Pole or a Martian. If for some reason I idolized Anky - those videos would have disappointed me as a fan.

Artificial and exaggerated are not words I was taught to associate with dressage. If the only comeback I can get to that is the typical 1)stupid American, 2) provincial 3) women are too weak - or other zingers that have been used, it isn't helping me change my mind.

Was that the intention? To change my mind? Because it didn't. And I'm willing to change my mind. Some people have really posted some good thoughts on the subject. Too bad they're not posting anymore - but maybe it's because people like me are just not seeing relaxation and true correct movement no matter how hard we try.

Coreene
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:28 PM
JSwan- you just made my day- I really got a great laugh of your reply!! All in good jest- and yes if I ever come to Virginia- I'll ride with you....watch out though- them Germs are hardcore...might put some scrapes on them lovely draft crosses...!!
Hey Sabine, you Germ :lol: , wanna have lunch next week? Email me, coreene@yahoo.com Like maybe Tuesday or Thursday?

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:40 PM
JSwan- you just made my day- I really got a great laugh of your reply!! All in good jest- and yes if I ever come to Virginia- I'll ride with you....watch out though- them Germs are hardcore...might put some scrapes on them lovely draft crosses...!!

Hey - I know. I used to live in Germany. Norddeutschland - not laid back like the south. Loved it. I especially loved riding wonderful dressage horses for 3 years.

You know the saying, "Inside every German is a policeman".

You may ride one of my horses. But - NO rolkur in the hunt field. When in Rome - do as the Romans do. And in hunting, you just pretty much scream and pray and let the horse's head go - which was the hardest lesson I learned. Stay off their mouth and back and let go of their head.

Since you are enjoying a laugh at my expense - I'll go even further. The best dressage I've ever done as been out hunting.

Yeah - laugh if you want - go ahead - I ate something and my blood sugar is normal now.

While lesser mortals are kicking, I merely ask for extension. Or for the horse in the picture - who completely lost his mind the first season, asking for shoulder in, half pass, etc was a wonderful way to calm his mind and settle him.

So y'all can cackle over that bon mot while I try and tear myself away from this keyboard - because although this has been a charming visit - all I've been doing is avoiding farm chores.

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:46 PM
Sabine - was that not intended to poke at JSwan?

There slc, I asked directly.


no- dear- I was merely asking how she can be so qualified in matters dressage, when she portays herself as a warrior of the field...in great attire mind you.

However on second thought I really cherish her reply- because I laughed so hard- I almost fell off my chair...so it's all good.

Since you seem to be newer, Oaksbrea- you will soon find that these debates are utterly useless- and you might rather spend the time petting your dog than typing- as you can NOT learn anything new here- however sometimes someone posts a really funny post - and then it's kind of amusing...if you want to learn to ride- get a good instructor, go to shows, scribe at shows, compete, clinic and read lots of books....you'll get the idea pretty soon...

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 03:13 PM
no- dear- I was merely asking how she can be so qualified in matters dressage, when she portays herself as a warrior of the field...in great attire mind you.

However on second thought I really cherish her reply- because I laughed so hard- I almost fell off my chair...so it's all good.

Since you seem to be newer, Oaksbrea- you will soon find that these debates are utterly useless- and you might rather spend the time petting your dog than typing- as you can NOT learn anything new here- however sometimes someone posts a really funny post - and then it's kind of amusing...if you want to learn to ride- get a good instructor, go to shows, scribe at shows, compete, clinic and read lots of books....you'll get the idea pretty soon...

Sabine - Oakesbrae is an extremely competent, well rounded competitive rider and has been for many many years. Many years.

There are many of us that are extremely competent, experienced riders with a great eye for conformation, movement, or other important matters in horsemanship. Perhaps we're just glad Al Gore invented the internet so we can communicate with other riders.

Perhaps, in order to participate in the dressage forum, you'd prefer the moderators gather our resumes and forward them to you for review - before allowing us in to the sanctum sanctorum.

That way you can keep the riff raff out. Including former dressage addicts who took up riding to hounds to get away from the dressage queens. (little did I know there are foxhunting queens too -but that's another story)

sabryant
Jun. 16, 2006, 03:21 PM
I'll stand behind what Sabine says!! It has been my experience that Jswan has been nothing but a mis-interperating bully since I've started posting on this board...even at one point telling me that "if I knew who I was talking to, I wouldn't be saying the things I say." I was wondering myself how she could jockey the keyboard all day long and do so much trianing of horses. I have realized, now, that it is the people who croak the loudest with the vicious remarks who really are the least informed about any kind of training of the horse.

slc2
Jun. 16, 2006, 03:27 PM
It's hard to compare a persons physiology to a horse's like this because we are built differently

Yes, a horse's neck is far, far more flexible than a human's. the shoulder, neck, jaw and poll have a far greater range than any comparable anatomy in a human.

slc

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 03:58 PM
Oh, I have no intention of learning anything new from the Dressage forum - I simply enjoy a good train wreck - keeps me from having to do anything serious at work. If I concentrate too hard on what I am doing at work I am likely to have a coronary - so I flip back and forth to COTH to keep my mind on lighter, less substantive things.

:)

And I suppose I am relatively new to COTH (I think I've only been here, what, 2 years - and how long have you been here Sabine?) but I'm certainly no newcomer to bulletin boards of this ilk or dressage! *laughing* How rediculous of a supposition to make because I oppose a particular style of training!

Tell you what - we'll go out riding - any style - Dressage, Hunter/Jumper, Hunting, Eventing...hell I'll even throw in saddle seat for good measure.

And I guarantee, you'll have a different opinion of my experience and ability. Wish I could put you on the mare I just sold. *laughing* Then you'd also have a different opinion of hot and sensitive.

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 03:59 PM
"if I knew who I was talking to, I wouldn't be saying the things I say"

Actually, someone said that to us about you - I don't believe JSwan ever said that until the ringside gossiper remarks were thrown in her direction.

:)

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:11 PM
Perhaps we're just glad Al Gore invented the internet so we can communicate with other riders.

JSwan, you slay me - I missed this the first time!

Tonja
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:34 PM
Scl2 wrote:

It's hard to compare a persons physiology to a horse's like this because we are built differently

Yes, a horse's neck is far, far more flexible than a human's. the shoulder, neck, jaw and poll have a far greater range than any comparable anatomy in a human.

Another distinctive characteristic of the horse’s head and neck is that, due to its mass, structure and location, even a minor displacement can have a substantial negative influence on balance and freedom of movement.

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:40 PM
Oh Tonja, you insist on being serious. Don't you know you can change the laws of physics after filling in the dip in front of the withers? In fact, I warrant that the horse could work with his nose pointing to the sky as long as he is moving through his butt and that dip is filled.

*snort* *laughing*

I'm sorry sabryant - it was right there. Couldn't help it.

Incidentally, have you ever held a horse's head up? Boy, they are heavy. I had to hold a dead one's head up (a very old horse who had passed during the night in her stall, which had a board to get over) to get her out of the stall since the tractor couldn't fit in - holy cow - I thought my arms were going to fall off!

fiona
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:43 PM
Which is why "dead weight" and "price on the hoof" are not the same.

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:48 PM
Which is why "dead weight" and "price on the hoof" are not the same.

Because of the hauling involved?

Yea, that was a fun experience - rigor mortise had already set in but apparently it doesn't affect the neck and head, so though we tried to drag the horse out by hooking up a makeshift harness, the head caught on the board at the front of the stall and the neck actually bent underneath the body - which obviously wasn't going to work. Which is how I ended up carrying the head out of the stall.

My old gelding used to rest his head on top of mine when I'd sit in front of his stall. Very slowly he would rest more and more of his weight on the top of my head until I couldn't take it anymore since MY neck is not capable of supporting that!

Coreene
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:54 PM
Yea, that was a fun experience - rigor mortise had already set in but apparently it doesn't affect the neck and head, so though we tried to drag the horse out by hooking up a makeshift harness, the head caught on the board at the front of the stall and the neck actually bent underneath the body - which obviously wasn't going to work. Which is how I ended up carrying the head out of the stall.
OakesBrae, what a crap thing to go through. :cry:

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:57 PM
Yes, it wasn't fun at all - I laughed about it at the time because it was one of those things that got so rediculous that you just had to laugh despite being horrified at the actual things you were doing.

That being said, the horse in question was very old, had lived a great life and had free roam of the farm in her elder years. So even though she had passed on - I'm sure she was okay with that.

Tonja
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:59 PM
Oh OakesBrae, do you have to share experiences like that so soon after lunch?! (where’s the queasy emocon?)

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:01 PM
Oh! Sorry - it's 4 pm here. I had forgotten that folks from the west coast were likely behind my time over here in the east!

MyReality
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:16 PM
Perhaps we're just glad Al Gore invented the internet so we can communicate with other riders.

Sometimes the sarcasm doesn't come through but this is a joke, right? Just curious cuz my fiance always say I'm slow to get the jokes (not kidding).

Coreene
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:18 PM
Yes, it wasn't fun at all - I laughed about it at the time because it was one of those things that got so rediculous that you just had to laugh despite being horrified at the actual.
That was like when I told everyone that their eyes would not close (this was right before we put Willem to sleep). And, of course, no one believed me and everyone tried, and we were in stitches about it. I mean, you had to laugh. The alternative was just too awful.

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:26 PM
That's right - I actually find that to be my reaction most times when dealing with something.

For instance, when the lights went out in the barn while I was on my uber hot and spooky TB mare in the middle of a storm and I was there alone and couldn't see a THING - not even my hand in front of my face it was so dark.

It's a long story, which I won't repeat here, but essentially she ended up rearing and ripping the reins out of my hands and disappearing into the blackness.

So then I was alone...in the dark...with a loose horse...and I couldn't find the door. What did I do? I burst out laughing - nothing ELSE I could do!

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:31 PM
Very very funny.

No need to wonder why I have so much time - if you are as fascinated by my private life as you seem to be - you could just ask. I've never indicated that I trained horses for a living, nor have I stated anything except my own personal experience with the horse's I've owned or had the opportunity to ride - and my perspective from what I have been taught since I started riding as a child.

In short - I'd consider that I'm pretty much like the average poster on this BB.

Now - if you care to read things into posts that aren't there, keep on going.

When I commented about "you never know who you're speaking with" - I wasn't talking about myself - nor did I ever indicate I was. But I know the identities of a couple of the posters so quickly dismissed - and I was rather surprised.

If you don't like my posts - just put me on your ignore list. That's what it's there for.

However, before you go - I would like to know exactly what les femmes formidable consider to be the qualifications necessary for a person post on the this forum. I think I can safely say that the veterinarians and dressage professionals who disagree with you are off the list, the average horse owner is off the list, lower level competitors are off the list, foxhunters are off the list, eventers are off the list, Americans are off the list, who else.




I'll stand behind what Sabine says!! It has been my experience that Jswan has been nothing but a mis-interperating bully since I've started posting on this board...even at one point telling me that "if I knew who I was talking to, I wouldn't be saying the things I say." I was wondering myself how she could jockey the keyboard all day long and do so much trianing of horses. I have realized, now, that it is the people who croak the loudest with the vicious remarks who really are the least informed about any kind of training of the horse.

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:38 PM
Yes - that was meant as humour. I must be as bad as that as riding!




Sometimes the sarcasm doesn't come through but this is a joke, right? Just curious cuz my fiance always say I'm slow to get the jokes (not kidding).

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 06:37 PM
that's because you ARE shooting nasty comments, lol.

jswan, the person was describing your horse, which indeed does look like a draft cross, which are quite frequently used for field hunters, which you say is what you were doing, so what exactly are you getting all effy about?

and finally, NO, this is NOT done because these women are 'weak' or to 'keep up with the men', that is the most ridiculous thing i ever heard of in my life, and to me is just another part of the alternative universe you guys have invented.

slc
In another thread Sabryant said to me if I rode a horse like Salinero with the lightest possible aids, I would be in a Body brace!!! I asked her what she meant by that.. Was the horse that rank that he needed to be controlled in such a forceful dominant manner??? I have never gotten an answer to that .
' And slc, Read the comments, you and others have written, Yours and sabines and others are belittling and condescending, and downright rude, To make comments like what what said to Jswan, and you say it wasnt rude?? You know darn well it was! :no:

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 06:43 PM
slc wrote: "and finally, NO, this is NOT done because these women are 'weak' or to 'keep up with the men', that is the most ridiculous thing i ever heard of in my life, and to me is just another part of the alternative universe you guys have invented."

If by "you guys" if you mean those against RK, this was actually written by sabryant in defense of RK, post 411 Horses For Life - Rollkur Issue: "There is a big issue of strength between men and women. Men tend to ride with more strength. Women tend to finesse more the horse by using other techniques, like deep, RK and etc. to get these big strong horses through the back. And don't try to tell me men don't use strength because I have ridden behind plenty of them that do and it is not easy."

Just to clear the record a bit regarding the rude "alternative universe you guys have invented. "

egontoast
Jun. 16, 2006, 06:45 PM
It's hard to compare a persons physiology to a horse's like this because we are built differently



Oh yes, so true we are built differently from horses if you really rully think about it. And the legs. Don't forget the extra 2 legs. And the head is way longer with fur all over. And bone marrow. There's another difference. WOW!

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:54 PM
Sabine - Oakesbrae is an extremely competent, well rounded competitive rider and has been for many many years. Many years.

There are many of us that are extremely competent, experienced riders with a great eye for conformation, movement, or other important matters in horsemanship. Perhaps we're just glad Al Gore invented the internet so we can communicate with other riders.

Perhaps, in order to participate in the dressage forum, you'd prefer the moderators gather our resumes and forward them to you for review - before allowing us in to the sanctum sanctorum.

That way you can keep the riff raff out. Including former dressage addicts who took up riding to hounds to get away from the dressage queens. (little did I know there are foxhunting queens too -but that's another story)


Jswan- dear take some of them lovely feel good pills- I have them somewhere- so the chip on the shoulder doesn't weigh you down so much...<grin>. You're taking all of this way too serious...this is a fun board, c'mon post another one of your great posts about Germany...LOL!

Oakes- sorry if my post addressed to you came off in anyway patronizing- clearly not intended...my point was merely that it is VERY hard to learn from folks that you can't see ride and that haven't gotten a lot of great skills expressing that recipe in words...there are some on this board that can write fantastic and take the time to explain- but honestly in my opinion- noone seems to want to listen...:(

fiona
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:13 PM
Just curious cuz my fiance always say I'm slow to get the jokes (not kidding).

You probably ought to have a long deep think before you marry this person.

fiona
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:14 PM
yes, so true we are built differently from horses if you really rully think about it. And the legs. Don't forget the extra 2 legs. And the head is way longer with fur all over. And bone marrow. There's another difference. WOW!

Yeah but your ears are the same too, right?

slc2
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:50 PM
"written by sabryant in defense of RK,"

so?

it's not any argument that's going to go anywhere here, it being a less physical and forceful method isn't going anywhere with a group who thinks it and/or draw reins kill horses.

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:29 PM
on here is overwelming! :eek: :confused:
You are all equally of being mean and thoughtless and belittling and condescending as you acuse all of us of. Not one of us that I have ssen have twisted the words or posts around, thrown out nasty remarks about a persons, riding ability, when none of you know any one else on here, We could asak the same of all of you?? This is totally getting no one anywhere.

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:30 PM
on here is overwelming! :eek: :confused:
You are all equally guility of being mean and thoughtless and belittling and condescending as you acuse all of us of. Not one of us that I have seen have twisted the words or posts around, thrown out nasty remarks about a persons riding ability, when none of you know any one else on here, We could ask the same of all of you?? This is totally getting no one anywhere.

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:03 PM
slc - what on earth are you talking about?

I don't think draw reins kills horses - but I did see the carcass of a horse that was killed by a grizzley once. So I'm pretty sure that grizzlies kill horses.

Are the voices in your head bad today?

To answer the question, "So" that you posted, you said that I was being ridiculous or some such nonsense because I brought up the notion that RK was developed because women were weak, and then you said something about some alternative universe.

The response you were given merely pointed out that I was not the one who made the ridiculous assertion.

Let the voices in your head argue over that for a while and get back to me.

For Sabine -

Ok - Funny? You want funny? I got lots. So funny you'll pee your pants. But you'd best visit the foxhunting or Off Course forum if you want to laugh and joke about horses in sport- this audience is dead.



"written by sabryant in defense of RK,"

so?

it's not any argument that's going to go anywhere here, it being a less physical and forceful method isn't going anywhere with a group who thinks it and/or draw reins kill horses.

sabryant
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:07 PM
It won't go anywhere here because not one of you understands or will admit that it takes a certain amount of core strength to ride some horses untill they are loosened and trained to the point of lightness. You can tell me all day long about your light aids but I wonder is your horse really through it's back, going forward, doing something other than a shuffle. It is not a forceful strength but a quiet, steady strength...not pulling, yanking, cranking, spanking...but a steady strength from your legs and upper back that puts the horse's hind legs into the bridle. I have ridden behind a couple of top male riders (Olympic team USA) whose horses were so heavy, with no clue to the leg aid that I could barely walk when I got off. (and yes these horses were ridden with draw reins by the grooms and work/study students, all female, because they didn't, otherwise, have the strength to ride them.) I watched KB get on one of our Olympic team (female rider) horses at a symposium and because of his massive strength made the horse look like a totally different animal altogether inside two strides. (It wasn't from a more skilled rider that this could happen within a stride or two.) You guys are living in a dream world if you think that men don't ride with strength and that women are at a lesser advantage because of it. You can tell me all day long that it shouldn't matter because "that is the beauty of dressage." It ain't so. It just ain't so!!

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:21 PM
Okay, fine. Since none of us know what we are talking about, and you do, please provide documention of the following, so that we may rely upon your statement over our own experience, knowledge and training.

Let's cut to the chase.

Please list your credentials, starting with who you trained with, to what level, in what competitions have you won, please name the male Olympic team members whose horses you rode, please detail to us the circumstance of those rides and the names of those horses so that we may independently verify your comments, and please provide scientific evidence that female riders are at a disadvantage due to their sex.

Riding is one of the very few sports in which women and men compete as equals. Do you submit that females should have separate competitions?

And please for our ease of reading, stick with one version of your training method.


It won't go anywhere here because not one of you understands or will admit that it takes a certain amount of core strength to ride some horses untill they are loosened and trained to the point of lightness. You can tell me all day long about your light aids but I wonder is your horse really through it's back, going forward, doing something other than a shuffle. It is not a forceful strength but a quiet, steady strength...not pulling, yanking, cranking, spanking...but a steady strength from your legs and upper back that puts the horse's hind legs into the bridle. I have ridden behind a couple of top male riders (Olympic team USA) whose horses were so heavy, with no clue to the leg aid that I could barely walk when I got off. (and yes these horses were ridden with draw reins by the grooms and work/study students, all female, because they didn't have the strength to ride them.) I watched KB get on one of our Olympic team (female rider) horses at a symposium and because of his massive strength made the horse look like a totally different animal altogether inside two strides. (It wasn't from a more skilled rider that this could happen within a stride or two.) You guys are living in a dream world if you think that men don't ride with strength and that women are at a lesser advantage because of it. You can tell me all day long that it shouldn't matter because "that is the beauty of dressage." It ain't so. It just ain't so!!

sabryant
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:46 PM
Why would I tell you, who makes the National Enquirer read like a prayer book, anything about myself or my training method. You've already hacked my posts through the thread shredder.

OakesBrae
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:10 AM
Oakes- sorry if my post addressed to you came off in anyway patronizing- clearly not intended...my point was merely that it is VERY hard to learn from folks that you can't see ride and that haven't gotten a lot of great skills expressing that recipe in words...there are some on this board that can write fantastic and take the time to explain- but honestly in my opinion- noone seems to want to listen...

That's okay Sabine - and that I understand - but I'm not here to learn any more than I ever am anywhere to learn (now I'm going to get all philosophical on you *kersnort*).

I think people ARE reading and listening - I think the problem is that things are misinterpreted on BOTH sides. Remember - this is a BB and we're all using the written medium in the form of internet postings - not exactly known for being an accurate mechanism of communication.

For instance, sabryant has just said that it takes a certain amount of CORE strength - well, hell, sabryant - if THAT'S what you meant, then yes - I agree with you. CORE strength yes - ARM strength no. I still disagree with you on the light aids/lack of light aids, but I'm sure there's some misunderstanding between us there too.

Okay - I just watched a sappy movie, so maybe I'm being too damn nice, but here I think is the difference (maybe in a nutshell) between what I see in the movies and the warmups and what you are explaining your philosophy to be:

The riders are not using simply core strength and hand to recycle the energy. They are purposefully bringing the horse's nose IN, not f/d/o and not even necessarily down (i.e. the neck isn't going down from the wither like in a f/d/o strech - and pardon me, oh ye muscle group freakettes ;-) I'm sure there's some technical word for it but I'm tired - gimme a break). I do not see "strong" seat and legs, what I see are sharp legs. Downright pokes with the spur from time to time.

What you are explaining is what I know dressage to be - get the hind end activated first, recycle the energy using the mid-section (those would be the half halts I was mentioning before) and then the horse is pushed into the bridle from there. Here, I think you and I differ, because I do not think much pressure belongs in the reins. But hey - what's 2lbs between friends??

Are we getting closer to understanding each other?

sabryant
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:15 AM
No, I don't submit that men and women have different competitions and there in lies the beauty of dressage...the end result should be a totally light, self carrying horse that anybody could ride! Unfortunately, it does not always happen that way!!

sabryant
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:33 AM
We differ on these points and "hell" yourself. In the warm-up, I can certainly understand a quick, sharp aid. In training I would rather use a quick, sharp aid, get the message across, and get it over with. I have not always been so lucky as to have very talented horse to compete or train. I do have the ability to train them very technically correct so that I show well dispite the lesser talent. Not trying to make excuses, I rather like the Socratic quest of making something out of nothing. And yes those 60/40 built horses can get "hell" heavy at times in the beginning of their training. I think a lot depends on the size of your wallet!

OakesBrae
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:47 AM
We differ on these points and "hell" yourself.

Uhhh...okay, wow - you took that entirely different than I said it.

What I was doing was offering an olive branch - perhaps the word "heck" might have been more appropriate???? :confused: All I was trying to say was - I think we are MOSTLY saying the same thing there. I'm starting to understand what you are saying now - we're using mostly different language for some odd reason - but I think we really are more on the same page than I initially thought - and also than you initially thought.

I don't necessarily disagree with a sharp aid - but what I do disagree with is a sharp aid with a. nowhere for the horse to go and b. no release or relief. THAT is what I am arguing about.

For instance, what I typically teach is that if you must apply a sharp aid (for instance, the horse is not moving sufficiently off the leg) that the FIRST step is to open the front door. Because if the front door is not open, then there's going to be a minor implosion there. What do I mean by the front door open? I don't mean chucking the reins. I mean softly opening the fingers a hair so that the horse doesn't jump and hit the bridle - but rather can step into the bridle further and "get the point". Then the horse re-establishes the contact.

I understand what you are saying - I've never had a ton of money to buy horses either. In fact, my current gelding is both the most naturally talented and most expensive horse that I've ever owned. And he was under $5k. And he's a draft cross - not a fancy branded horse. What I have also worked with have been the misunderstood and the rejected. The horses who were worked in a crank and spank environment who were then "tossed" because they did things like *gasp shudder* resist and become "dangerous". The horses that were rejected because they became dangerous on cross-country and the horses that were tossed in a field for years and left alone because of panic attack issues (created by the show ring and uncaring riders).

sabryant
Jun. 17, 2006, 12:58 AM
It has been my experience that if you open the door at the same time you make the leg aid, the horse runs from the aid. I close the door at the same time, recycle the energy through the back coming up, hind coming forward, and give the moment the resistance is ended.




Uhhh...okay, wow - you took that entirely different than I said it.

What I was doing was offering an olive branch - perhaps the word "heck" might have been more appropriate???? :confused: All I was trying to say was - I think we are MOSTLY saying the same thing there. I'm starting to understand what you are saying now - we're using mostly different language for some odd reason - but I think we really are more on the same page than I initially thought - and also than you initially thought.

I don't necessarily disagree with a sharp aid - but what I do disagree with is a sharp aid with a. nowhere for the horse to go and b. no release or relief. THAT is what I am arguing about.

For instance, what I typically teach is that if you must apply a sharp aid (for instance, the horse is not moving sufficiently off the leg) that the FIRST step is to open the front door. Because if the front door is not open, then there's going to be a minor implosion there. What do I mean by the front door open? I don't mean chucking the reins. I mean softly opening the fingers a hair so that the horse doesn't jump and hit the bridle - but rather can step into the bridle further and "get the point". Then the horse re-establishes the contact.

I understand what you are saying - I've never had a ton of money to buy horses either. In fact, my current gelding is both the most naturally talented and most expensive horse that I've ever owned. And he was under $5k. And he's a draft cross - not a fancy branded horse. What I have also worked with have been the misunderstood and the rejected. The horses who were worked in a crank and spank environment who were then "tossed" because they did things like *gasp shudder* resist and become "dangerous". The horses that were rejected because they became dangerous on cross-country and the horses that were tossed in a field for years and left alone because of panic attack issues (created by the show ring and uncaring riders).

OakesBrae
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:09 AM
Ahhh, well, again, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one - because I like my horses to know exactly what I am talking to them about when I *do* give them a sharp aid, so I leave the door open, get through the step or two of quick, and then they usually are responsive enough to work back into the bridle from there without sharp or harsh aids.

Just my .02 on a training method.

I think that's why those videos bothered me so much - there was no release - no response when the horse "lept to".

sabryant, I hope you understand that I've been - all along - even on the other thread - trying to understand where you were coming from and that the way it was initially presented it was very unclear. I'm still unclear about a few things from your perspective but I'm hoping we can talk them out.

sabryant
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:26 AM
Funny, I saw some release and patting the neck with the inside hand when all was good. I didn't see giving the rein, completely, away or intermittant contact. I saw soft contact. I am fine with agreeing to disagree. I loathe the belittling, smart ass (excuse my French) posts.

OakesBrae
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:34 AM
What belittleing smart ass posts (french or otherwise) have I made? I don't know how much more obvious I can make that I was not doing any such thing!!! I have cracked a few jokes - responded to a few dukes that other people have cracked at me (such as calling me a beginner to dressage and to COTH)

When I said, well hell, sabryant - it was one of those "OHHHHHH that's what you are saying"

I did not see the softening. I saw pops up with the inside hand. I saw one pat after 10 minutes of riding in such a manner. If there was softening, I would imagine that the nose would move from the chest, even a hair. I did not see a give, only takes and then firm holds.

Again - what one person sees may be different from another.

I have studied these videos over and over trying to see what you (and others) are seeing in them. I do this because before I take a stance against something I prefer to know much about it. I suppose bottom line on that one is that you see soft and happy, and I don't. I see tense and irritable. I even see tense and irritable in many horses in the competitive dressage ring today - so it's not like I'm singling out Anky here - just happens to be the person we've been discussing.

sabryant
Jun. 17, 2006, 01:50 AM
OMG, for fear of being mis-quoted again....by closing the door, I do not mean pulling back/up/down on the rein. I mean that I push the hind end to a receiving rein which is basically a steady, not giving, blocking rein until the resistance is over.

Sabine
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:15 AM
This is why it is soo hard to discuss real riding on a BB- if you only saw a clip of riding- both you SAB and Oakes- then you probably would not get stuck in your discussion- you would
a, accept the others suggestion and actually learn something knew or-
b, realize right away that you are talking about the same thing in different words...

That's the exact reason why I think it's fruitless- unless you can post a video of yourseff illustrating the point- but then it gets really touchy discussing this in a publlic forum because it is very hard to be really honest about what you see and you can get into a whole new can of worms...

That is why it is ultimately not working...:(

Noir
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:51 AM
The discussions on this forum would be so much easier to follow and so much less filled with misunderstandings and hurt feelings, if ones post stated what other post one is actually replying to. A Swedish forum that I visit sometimes, has the function that you have to reply to a specific post, not just reply in general. If you want to reply in general, you have to manually write that it's general. Erin, is that in any way possible?

Theresa

JSwan
Jun. 17, 2006, 08:03 AM
That's a good one.

My point was that one of the defenses to this method was that we were not experienced enough, nor did we have a great enough knowledge of dressage, trained in Europe, etc. to understand the concepts.

If I was to believe this, I wanted to know your credentials. I never held myself out to be anything but jane average rider. And what you are talking about now, core strength, is not what you were referring to earlier - words like force. So if your writing wasn't clear, or if you have reevaluated your position, that's fine and perfectly understandable.

What you are referring to now is not rollkur as evidenced in those videos. But your method was never in question until you brought it up as an example. Once you do that - it's as subject to as intense a scrutiny as those videos.

But forgive me if I rely on the representations of people I know personally, or those who have satisified me through their references and credentials, that they are competent.

And you'll also have to forgive my probing you about females being weaker. You see - I had to listent to that crap for years when I was in the Army - and that excuse has been used to deny 50% of the worlds population from actively participating in their societies. Personally, lugging heavier equipment than the males, working harder than the males, outperforming the males - and still being "weaker" got a bit old. And to hear it from another female just galls me no end.

Sabine - I got such a laugh out of the "Warrior of the Field". I'll have to remember that the next time I get swept out of the saddle and left hanging on a tree branch - I'll just cry out y'all can't leave me here, I'm a Warrior of the Fiellllllllld!


Why would I tell you, who makes the National Enquirer read like a prayer book, anything about myself or my training method. You've already hacked my posts through the thread shredder.

Sannois
Jun. 17, 2006, 08:21 AM
That's a good one.

My point was that one of the defenses to this method was that we were not experienced enough, nor did we have a great enough knowledge of dressage, trained in Europe, etc. to understand the concepts.

If I was to believe this, I wanted to know your credentials. I never held myself out to be anything but jane average rider. And what you are talking about now, core strength, is not what you were referring to earlier - words like force. So if your writing wasn't clear, or if you have reevaluated your position, that's fine and perfectly understandable.

What you are referring to now is not rollkur as evidenced in those videos. But your method was never in question until you brought it up as an example. Once you do that - it's as subject to as intense a scrutiny as those videos.

But forgive me if I rely on the representations of people I know personally, or those who have satisified me through their references and credentials, that they are competent.

And you'll also have to forgive my probing you about females being weaker. You see - I had to listent to that crap for years when I was in the Army - and that excuse has been used to deny 50% of the worlds population from actively participating in their societies. Personally, lugging heavier equipment than the males, working harder than the males, outperforming the males - and still being "weaker" got a bit old. And to hear it from another female just galls me no end.

Sabine - I got such a laugh out of the "Warrior of the Field". I'll have to remember that the next time I get swept out of the saddle and left hanging on a tree branch - I'll just cry out y'all can't leave me here, I'm a Warrior of the Fiellllllllld!
Off topic, but I'll bet your guy your mounted on in your Photo is a BLAST to hunt! He looks like a true solid citizen. :)
Oh amd as an aside, I always thought those who hunted had balls of Brass, to me it makes eventing look easy! :D

JSwan
Jun. 17, 2006, 08:40 AM
That horse is the one who put me in the hospital with a suspected broken back and foot after leaving me for dead in the back 40. But I dragged myself through the field, caught him, lunged him for 1/2 hour, cleaned him up, fed, turned everyone one, made sure the turkey was done (it was the day before Thanksgiving) and then drove myself to the hospital. I couldn't let him think he could get out of work just by bucking and sunfishing until the fat lady fell off....

He is very naughty. And my favorite horse. But sorry - my balls are the size of bb's. I'm a weeny foxhunter. Eventers have the great big brass ones - whew!



Off topic, but I'll bet your guy your mounted on in your Photo is a BLAST to hunt! He looks like a true solid citizen. :)
Oh amd as an aside, I always thought those who hunted had balls of Brass, to me it makes eventing look easy! :D

Sannois
Jun. 17, 2006, 08:42 AM
That horse is the one who put me in the hospital with a suspected broken back and foot after leaving me for dead in the back 40. But I dragged myself through the field, caught him, lunged him for 1/2 hour, cleaned him up, fed, turned everyone one, made sure the turkey was done (it was the day before Thanksgiving) and then drove myself to the hospital. I couldn't let him think he could get out of work just by bucking and sunfishing until the fat lady fell off....

He is very naughty. And my favorite horse. But sorry - my balls are the size of bb's. I'm a weeny foxhunter. Eventers have the great big brass ones - whew!
Looks are decieving!!! Glad you survived! Well The fact that you even hunt is enough in My book.. ;)

sm
Jun. 17, 2006, 02:30 PM
hi sabryant,

Fandango -- what a beauty!

I'm interested your reason below, thanks for pointing it out, but at the expense of impure gaits and a "broken neck"? Why not a smaller horse instead since they are all riding "giants." Also Debbie McDonald is petite so for her... she does what? Although, what if the horse has little or no respect for the rider (here perhaps a respect issue instead of a possible strength issue). And Bretina adores Debbie, so the respect is there (hmmm... did I just answer my own question?)

Even at our tiny regional dressage barn, we don't allow the horse to be heavy on the leg. Takes a few taps with a crop not a stronger leg response from the rider, like "no, that was the aid." Not ever rollkur to get the horse to listen or respect the aids.

What does the short crop rule have to do with this, does this contribute at all? I remember at a clinic with Christine Traurig (I was auditing), she mentioned the horses were so much better off schooling with the long whip since you could just tap their hind legs, now they are tortured to be so much sharper (tortured was her word).

***

sabryant post #83: "It won't go anywhere here because not one of you understands or will admit that it takes a certain amount of core strength to ride some horses untill they are loosened and trained to the point of lightness. You can tell me all day long about your light aids but I wonder is your horse really through it's back, going forward, doing something other than a shuffle. It is not a forceful strength but a quiet, steady strength...not pulling, yanking, cranking, spanking...but a steady strength from your legs and upper back that puts the horse's hind legs into the bridle. I have ridden behind a couple of top male riders (Olympic team USA) whose horses were so heavy, with no clue to the leg aid that I could barely walk when I got off. (and yes these horses were ridden with draw reins by the grooms and work/study students, all female, because they didn't, otherwise, have the strength to ride them.) I watched KB get on one of our Olympic team (female rider) horses at a symposium and because of his massive strength made the horse look like a totally different animal altogether inside two strides. (It wasn't from a more skilled rider that this could happen within a stride or two.) You guys are living in a dream world if you think that men don't ride with strength and that women are at a lesser advantage because of it. You can tell me all day long that it shouldn't matter because "that is the beauty of dressage." It ain't so. It just ain't so!!

***

mbm
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:05 PM
It won't go anywhere here because not one of you understands or will admit that it takes a certain amount of core strength to ride some horses untill they are loosened and trained to the point of lightness. You can tell me all day long about your light aids but I wonder is your horse really through it's back, going forward, doing something other than a shuffle. It is not a forceful strength but a quiet, steady strength...not pulling, yanking, cranking, spanking...but a steady strength from your legs and upper back that puts the horse's hind legs into the bridle. I have ridden behind a couple of top male riders (Olympic team USA) whose horses were so heavy, with no clue to the leg aid that I could barely walk when I got off. (and yes these horses were ridden with draw reins by the grooms and work/study students, all female, because they didn't, otherwise, have the strength to ride them.) I watched KB get on one of our Olympic team (female rider) horses at a symposium and because of his massive strength made the horse look like a totally different animal altogether inside two strides. (It wasn't from a more skilled rider that this could happen within a stride or two.) You guys are living in a dream world if you think that men don't ride with strength and that women are at a lesser advantage because of it. You can tell me all day long that it shouldn't matter because "that is the beauty of dressage." It ain't so. It just ain't so!!


Sabryant - i think that what some folks objected to was the words you used to describe how you ride young horses. i havent looked back but i read elsewhere that you changed all your posts. what you originally wrote was "hard riding" and "strength" so of course some (me included) will react negatively to the minds eye image that brings up.

I totally understnad that it is hard to write about riding. i have a very hard time with it and so i assume do others.

so please do not think that I oppose RIDING. I do not. what i do oppose is HARD RIDING. which to me is a huge difference. when i read hard riding i think crank and spank etc.

and of course it does take core stregnth to ride and it does take very good balance and ability to help a young horse to balance in the beggining. (altho i am more of the scool that allows youngsters to find there own balance on light light contact and once the balance is found to then slowly ask them to step under and work harder which will bring them to contact)

i also understnad that it takes a certain ability to suck the horse up under your seat.... and that really (so far as i know with as far as i have gotten in this journey) that this ability to RIDE and suck the horse up under you is the way to get the horse on the aids and through. and if you cant do either you arent going to get far.

please do not think that people opposed what you wrote out of ignorance - it was more becuase the words you choose to use to describe things.

Tonja
Jun. 17, 2006, 06:59 PM
Sabryant wrote:

There is a big issue of strength between men and women. Men tend to ride with more strength. Women tend to finesse more the horse by using other techniques, like deep, RK and etc. to get these big strong horses through the back. And don't try to tell me men don't use strength because I have ridden behind plenty of them that do and it is not easy. (From the “Horses For Life - Rollkur Issue” thread, post #411)
and

I have ridden behind a couple of top male riders (Olympic team USA) whose horses were so heavy, with no clue to the leg aid that I could barely walk when I got off. (and yes these horses were ridden with draw reins by the grooms and work/study students, all female, because they didn't, otherwise, have the strength to ride them.) I watched KB get on one of our Olympic team (female rider) horses at a symposium and because of his massive strength made the horse look like a totally different animal altogether inside two strides. (It wasn't from a more skilled rider that this could happen within a stride or two.) You guys are living in a dream world if you think that men don't ride with strength and that women are at a lesser advantage because of it. (That long & deep article from Holland #84 )

From reading these posts I get the impression you feel that in order for women to exert strength comparable to that that of men they resort to techniques like deep, rollkur, etc. to "get their big strong horses through the back".

Course aids make the horse dull to fine aids (as your examples so clearly illustrate). Riders who use strong aid may often be highly rewarded in the show ring but this kind of riding should never be considered the desirable outcome of dressage training. Horses that have been trained to respond to course aids will need to be ridden with course aids until a more tactful rider can teach them the meaning of light aids.

When horses are started out from the beginning with light aids as mbm described, (by allowing “youngsters to find there own balance on light light contact and once the balance is found to then slowly ask them to step under and work harder which will bring them to contact”) the need to resort to strength, as you described above, to get even “big strong horses through the back”, never arises.

TBCheval
Jun. 17, 2006, 07:52 PM
Horses that have been trained to respond to course aids will need to be ridden with course aids until a more tactful rider can teach them the meaning of light aids. When horses are started out from the beginning with light aids as mbm described, (by allowing “youngsters to find there own balance on light light contact and once the balance is found to then slowly ask them to step under and work harder which will bring them to contact”) the need to resort to strength, as you described above, to get even “big strong horses through the back”, never arises.This is so, so true in any discipline, not just dressage. It's just basic good horsemanship, and one of the first things I learned even before I became interested in dressage. (I'm sure nobody believes that the basics are no longer meaningful in top-level dressage.)

This has been especially important to me as I have a youngster who is so willing and tries so hard - the last thing I'd want to do is dull her out! And it seems that with a horse who has gotten dull and resistant from overuse of coarser aids, the best thing to do for the longterm benefit of the horse-rider partnership is to take the time to retrain to light aids. Horses aren't stupid; although a horse that has learned to resist the aids will keep trying what has worked before for awhile, with patience the rider can show the horse there's a better option by consistently offering the lightest of aids first and rewarding any response that is a step in the right direction.

sabryant
Jun. 17, 2006, 10:22 PM
Here we go again! Changed ALL of my posts??? That is a, flat out, lie!! I added something to one post because when I re-read it in a dispute poster's post, I realized that it did not make sense the way it was worded. Please don't start another lie about me??? Please. I wrote in a post below that post I'd changed, that I changed the post to make the sense that I had meant for it to make. NOW, it is translated into, I have changed ALL of my posts. I made ONE change to one post and it was adding a sentence not deleting one.

By hard riding, there have been many horses that I have ridden and been exhausted after riding them. When I have horses to train, I try to ride them in the order of the toughest one first and so on down the line. Some horses are a harder ride than others. I guess if you don't ride but one horse a day, it would be hard to understand that.

When you guys learn to read, and not misinterperate/distort things to become something YOU want to believe, it would make this BB a much nicer place.

mbm
Jun. 17, 2006, 11:49 PM
Here we go again! Changed ALL of my posts???

<snip>

When you guys learn to read, and not misinterperate/distort things to become something YOU want to believe, it would make this BB a much nicer place.

sabryant - when i said "all" i meant all the posts that we were talking about ie the posts that you posted on the other thread where you spoke about riding young horses and how it takes a certain amount of hard riding and etc. (cant remember now what you wrote...) ....

and the info that you changed them came from you - and i *thought* you said that you had changed all the posts on the other thread or some such thing......

in any case it wasnt meant in an evil manner (?) ..... i was trying to communicate.
<shrug>

i give up.

i guess if you want folks to understand your manner of training/riding you might want to post a video. that way there wont be any language issues or misunderstanding..

Noir
Jun. 18, 2006, 06:11 AM
I have the larger part of the thread printed out to read on the bus home, so if anyone wants to know what it originally said, I have it in print.

T

sabryant
Jun. 18, 2006, 12:35 PM
Nicole Uphoff Delves Deep into her Method

(Thiess) Your method "long, deep and round" has been frequently discussed and has caused controversy. The opponents say that it is not classical and that it's bad for the horse.

(Nicole) If you put the horses deep INSTEAD of riding them, the opponents are right. When you begin to work the horse long, deep and round, you must go about it slowly. When I get a new horse, I start by longeing in vienna sidereins, until he trusts me enough to let his neck fall down long. Regular sidereins don't give, and then the horses really curl up. Young horses are longed with chambon, so they can find the way down and stretch down deep. Every now and then I buckle up the vienna sidereins really tight, so that they also give and shorten at the poll. When I do that, I need to drive more from behind, just as when I ride in that frame. As soon as the horses give in the poll, I will adjust the ridereins to a longer length and ride in a slower tempo, and really let them swing. When you've done that, you can let them out very long so that they go down with a very round neck. That's when the back bascules.
It is important to me that the mouth is soft, and that the back is soft. There are days when I only ride deep. When the horses don't give their backs, there's no meaning to ride in an "up" frame.

(Thiess) How do you achieve the looseness?

(Nicole) The important thing is that you position the horse thoroughtly at the poll momentarily, but also that you give when you have, and not thold them curled up. Get the aids through, then give quickly. This will make them relax and release the tension in the back. That you cannot demand immediately. It's stretching, like for us humans. But we cannot start and immediately set things straight.

(Thiess) Who brought you this technique?

(Nicole) In the beginning it came from Dr Shulten-Baumer. But it was a completely different system. It was deep, but not as long and not as deep. In 1988 I came to Warendorf, and met Harry Boldt, and he began to train me 2 times per week. The rest of the week I was alone. Since I dont have a lot of muscular power, I need to ride the horses to become very sensitive. That's when I started to try to find a method to accomplish that. The way I ride now, is the result of my own inventions, and experiments. I think a lot when I ride. I never use the same schedule for all horses. One mus be ridden deeper than the other. You must feel where the horse feels the best. (Thiess) It it true that Rembrandt, talented as he was, had a weak back?

(Nicole) No. Rembrandt was unproblematic in every sense - movements, conformation, exterior. The problem was always his shying: he scared himself. That's why the outside rein is so important on him. I always had to warm up and loosen him deep to get him on the outside rein. The horse can only run away to the inside, becaue on the outside you have the fence or other. To prevent him from running away to the inside, I have to have him on the outside rein. That's how I control him. When I can feel that he want's to run away, he cannot because I hold him on the outside rein.

(Thiess) Do you ride your other horses differently?

(Nicole) I ride them all deep in general, but I ride all of the differently. Sir Lennox must come down quite deep and quite long.. Remmi must be held rounder, but not as deep. Grand Gilbert must be round and deep. I do it all on feel.
I have two horses in my stable that used to be ridden always up. As high as possible with the back pushed down and inverted. I could not get to these horses. I didn't get through the poll on any of them to begin with. Well, one, with a sharp curb. I longed both of them for 2-3 months. I didn't want to start a fight with them. I would have lost anyway. So I made the horses stretch down with a round neck, without fuss and annouance. After that it's so much easier to ride and train them. They can be bent and so forth.
It always takes longer for my horses to come to Grand Prix. Before they are nine years, there's no GP. Five year olds go well through second level, but I let them be. They don't have to go out in the ring. First they need to be made calm and loose.

(Thiess) You simply feel whet's best for your horse?

(Nicole) Yes. With Grand Gilbert this has changed sometimes. He used to be like Remmi, that is, fairly round. Then we came to a point when I said "no more". As I picked him up, he was stiff. Then I tried to put him even deeper, and that was right. I tried by feel, and it worked.

(Thiess) Do you ride movements like shoulder-in, travers, renvers, piaffe, passage and pirouette deep during training and repetition?

(Nicole) That too is a matter of feel. When I piaffe with the stallion Freudentänzer, he always tried to come above the bit. So I try to ride him deep in the piaffe, so that he cannot lose the back. The same goes for canter. He has a canter from hell. Becomes very strong and pushes the back down. He doesn't know where to go with tose long legs. A brief moment of deep releases the back again.

(Thiess) So when you feel that the horse has a tendency to drop the back during work, you set him deep?

(Nicole) Yes, in any movement. Trot extensions are the only things I cannot do deep. Remmi reacts very well to knee pressure. When I post to the trot and put the knee on, he starts to passage.

(Thiess) Freudentänzer (by Frühlingstraum II) is supposed to be a real mover?

(Nicole) When he came to me, he could do medium trot extensions. But he was very bad to the leg - after three leaps of canter I could not drive any more. He fell out and I couldn't get him throught the poll. With such a stallion I didin't want to engage in a fight. He understood very well on the longe line. Then I started to ride him in a simple bridle. It took really long before I could put him deep, about nine months, until the back musckes had developed.

(Thiess) Did you ever use drawreins?

(Nicole) No, I'm too proud for that. I'd rather longe. I really hate the double bridle as well. I have the ambition to get the horses soft on a simple snaffle bridle. It is always a change for my horses, because I neglect to train with the double bridle before tournaments. As I slam the double on, the horse is chocked.

(Thiess) It is often discussed wether you method is classical or not. What do you think?

(Nicole) Classical Dressage, as I understand it, is Grand Prix or Grand Prix Special. I wouldn't categorize this kind of riding as classical or not, just as riding, and in riding everyone has his own style.

(Thiess) The defenders of classical dressage say that the poll must always be the highest point of the horse, even in the warm-up and training. Anything that strays from that is not classical.

(Nicole) Wether classical or not, for me the most important thing is wether it's good for my horse. The horse is paramount, and then you can stray from the rules when it's for the benefit of the horse. Classical this and classical that.

(Thiess) There are many riders who copy and put the head deep, but the back doesn't swing and the hindlges do not step under. You must have seen that out on competitions.

(Nicole) I think it's good that riders try. You just have to show them the right way. It is a sign that people are starting to think about the horse, and not just ride on with a stiff back. But until now, this method has not been discussed properly, But I think it's very good that Reiter Revue want's to explain.

(Thiess) Have your method influenced you husband Otto Becker?

(Nicole) No. He helps me sometimes with difficult horses, I'm not as brave as he is. But Otto has noticed that my method do the horses good, and jumpers too, guaranteed.

(Thiess) Alwin Schockemöhle theorized along the same principles as you. But he rode his horses with the help of drawreins. Because of all the followers, that pulled instead of rode, this method was hotly debated.

(Nicole) If you can use the drawreins, I have no objections to that.In the end, they are there to show the horse the way into the deep and then they should hang loose. There are horses that always pull their heads up, and on them drawreins limit the extent to which they can do this. I can remember how I used to have drawreins on my first horse. I would hold short in front and could kick on at the back. In front she moved like a champion, and I was very proud. But I was a child and didn't know that that was not the proper use of drawreins.

(Thiess) Schockehöhle rode like you - lots of leg and light in the hand, so that all horses let their heads fall, necks stretch and back swing. Did Dr Shultem-Baumer get that from the jumping community?

(Nicole) That could be, since he used to be a jumper himself. I can imagine that jumping horses with loosened backs jump better, since the back must round in the jump, too.

(Thiess) Do you have an idol?

(Nicole) No, I never have. Some people find me arrogant, but since I have invented my own method, I cannot have anyone else as role model. I'm convinced of my own method, otherwide I would not do it.

(Thiess) Gabriele Grillo said that there are 3 different ways to ride nowadays. One for training at home, one for warming up before a show and one for showing.

(Nicole) I work at home exactly like I do at shows for warm-up. When I ride my horses up at home they are ridden differently from showing, of course. In the show ring you cannot correct mistakes, so you're a bit careful there. But I wouldn't call it 3 different ways.When I want to ride excercises at home, I put the horses deep for 10 minutes in walk, trot and canter and then pick them up. That's exactly what I do at shows, too.

(Thiess) Do you send the horse deep as soon as you feel the back is pushed away?

(Nicole) Yes, exactly.

(Thiess) There are those who say that horses ridden this way don't develop meck muscles.

(Nicole) You cannot say that my horses don't have neck muscles. Horses that are ridden always up have short bulky muscles at the poll, and infront of the withers the neck is thin. My horses look the opposite - quite thin at the poll and bigger towards the shoulder.

(Thiess) Some people say that riding deep is for getting control over spooky horses.

(Nicole) I'll admit that. But I don't know what anyone could say against that. You goal is to relax a tense horse. When I rode Rembrandt deep on the outside rein and he got tense, I didn't have as big a problem as when I rode him up. I find this method better that using a sharp curb to get control.

(Thiess) Why doesn't this method work for those who copy you?

(Nicole) Many people think that I rinde my horses on the head. That the head and neck is the fifth leg in front. But it's not like that for me. I always have a connection, but I always try to keep it as light as possible. When I canter a horse deep, I don't ride him on the hands. he must carry hinself. And the horses have big problems with that at the start, since there's no crutch in front. Some find it so hard they stop cantering.

(Thiess) How do you do that?

(Nicole) I try to always yield, so that the horses have nothing to lean on. If you hold in front, they begin to pull and lean. I always give, so they learn to carry themselves behind, and sometimes they do that all by themselves. If I let Sir Lennox trot for 10 minutes he will have his nose to the ground, exactly as if I was riding him. Because he is used to it and it is comfortable. He didn't use to do that. It takes 9 months until I get a horse there.

(Thiess) What advice do you have for young women to become their very best?

(Nicole) Patience and sensitivity. But patience is very very important. Self critique is also important. If something goes wrong, you should always ask yourself what you could have done wrong. Because the horse usually reacts to aids from the rider.And when the problem is horse related - why wouldn't he have a bad day every now and then or simply make a mistake? Are we humans always so perfect?


The Training

Nicole Uphoff Becker trains her horses in the DOKR (Deutsches Olympiade-Kommitee für Reiterei). The daily work begins the same for every horse. At the extrended walk she sends the horse deep with hand and leg aids. Her hands are occasionally active (a taking and giving of the rein) when it is a horse that does not give the neck immediately. Higgens, a six year old brandenburger warmblood gelding needs a little more than Herrman's Sir Lennox. "Before he came to me, he was always warmed up with the neck forcefully up." explains Nicole about Higgens. Then she puts the horse consistently on the outside rein, opens the inside rein and uses small spur aids methodically. As the horse lets go of the neck, and drops his head behind the vertical until the nose is almost touching the front knees, his overtracking has increased to at least 2 hoof-lengths. After a couple of trot steps, she half-halts and checks down to walk, and transitions back to trot... All on bent tracks, in a very deep frame. Deep, deep, deep and round. With an evidently active arched back her horses march along in rythm, totally balanced.

The ease that her horses radiate during the work, is the strongest impression. The contact is light, but always present. Whenever she wants to, she can pick the horses up and ride in a normal frame - and then they move beautifully and at ease.


The Correct Aids

Basically the outside rein is there to be able to get the horse through the poll (up or deep) and tempo changes by half-halts. This means the the rein must never slack, the contact should always be there. The inside rein is there for loosening and positioning. The inside hand mus always release so that the inside hindleg is not blocked. To get the horse on the outside rein, I need to half-halt on the outside and drive with the inner leg towards the outside rein. When I want my horse set deeper, I simply shorten the outside rein and drive with my seat and legs and give the rein downwards, as my horse takes the rein down. When you ride deep, as the horse loosens at the front end, you slow the tempo, so that the horse swings his back and the hind end works correctly. For me is it not important that the horse steps vigorously under, it's enough that he calmly slopps forward. The most important thing is that the hindhand springs well and that the horse takes calm long steps.


How does the long, deep and round frame work?

Through a correct use of the long, deep and round frame, the neck muscles of the horse stretch and relax. These are in connection with the massive shoulder and back muscles, that also stretch and an arching of the back follows. Those massive muscles will have greater range to contract energetically and to stretch out again. They begin to swing to the rythm of the gaits. This relaxation is transmitted to the massive croup and hindleg muscles, that also start to work energetically and powerfully.
The muscles of the horse can be devided into
A) muscles of the head,
B)muscles of the hind (including neck musculature) and
C) muscles of the joints.
Every muscle has it's equal on the other side of the body, so there's two of every muscle. You can divide the hindmuscles into hind-flexors or hind-extensors. The antagonists (the opposing muscle) work with their synergists to form a perfect coordination between muscles. The muscles of the extensor system is on the top side of the back, and is more developed, while the flexor system of the back is situated on the bottom side of the neck, butt belly and ribs and the front side of the fore- and hindlegs and is less developed.
When the muscles of the extensor system are not relaxed the immediate result is that the muscles of the flexor system are not in a position to work properly - no stepping under of the hind legs. In that case we are dealing with a horse that moves with tense muscles and that has no chance of developing.
There's naturally many degrees to tension and thereby different degrees to which the muscles can work. A horse with tense muscles will sooner or later end up with ruined gaits.

The correct use of the long, deep and round (with consideration taken to the carefullness one needs to employ,) will improve the flexibility and bendability of the nuchal ligament and especially its continuation along the spinous processes of the back. Together with the gradual development of the arching of the back, it will directly influence the extensor system to relax and swing, and the muscles of the flexor system helps towards a relaxed work.

A horse that learns to work with round relaxed muscles in correct work develops more muscles and certainly improves his gaits considerably. One look at Rembrandt, Gigolo, Grand Gilbert or Fabienne is enough to realize that behind these gaits and athleticism is not just inborn talent and quality.


Letter to the Editor, Regarding the interview:

mbm
Jun. 18, 2006, 01:50 PM
thanks for reposting the article.

i am going to reread whne i have times, but in the interim i have to say that i dissagree with nicole that traditionally training will produce horses with stiff backs....

becuase i am happy to report that my mare, whom i dont train "deep" can get really loose and her neck drops and her back swings.... and if i can accomplsih this with "classical" methods I am very sure that others can too.

(and istn the neck dropping the result of the horse being straight?)

fiona
Jun. 18, 2006, 02:00 PM
(and istn the neck dropping the result of the horse being straight?)__________________


No.

Great article, thanks.

sabryant
Jun. 18, 2006, 03:42 PM
Please note in the third paragraph down. "Since I don't have muscular power, I need to ride the horses to become very sensitive. That's when I started to find a method to accomplish that...etc"

sabryant
Jun. 18, 2006, 03:56 PM
mbm quote
i am going to reread whne i have times, but in the interim i have to say that i dissagree with nicole that traditionally training will produce horses with stiff backs....

I believe that she means...for her, because of the lack of muscular power, in traditional training she cannot supple the stiff back.

ThreeFigs
Jun. 18, 2006, 05:50 PM
Thanks, sabryant, for posting that most interesting article! And now, back to lurk mode...

Tonja
Jun. 18, 2006, 06:16 PM
sabryant wrote:

I believe that she means...for her, because of the lack of muscular power, in traditional training she cannot supple the stiff back.

The thing is, traditional training does not use 'muscular power' (in the context that 'muscular power' is being used here) to supple a horse's stiff back.

Sannois
Jun. 18, 2006, 06:51 PM
sabryant wrote:


The thing is, traditional training does not use 'muscular power' (in the context that 'muscular power' is being used here) to supple a horse's stiff back.
No muscle should be needed, at least not breute force. Muscles in the abdomen and back, for half haults etc. But not Bulging biceps force! :no:

siegi b.
Jun. 18, 2006, 09:47 PM
Sannois - I try not to critique other posters, but your ignorance is glaring at this point. My eyes are killing me...
Them half haults are good for them biceps! :-)

Karoline
Jun. 18, 2006, 09:59 PM
unless your biceps are in your ass and back, I think not!

sabryant
Jun. 18, 2006, 10:08 PM
No muscle should be needed, at least not breute force. Muscles in the abdomen and back, for half haults etc. But not Bulging biceps force! :no:


I sure do use some muscle power in the backs of my shoulders on down in and through to my thighs and upper inside calves. What u mean no muscle power???

Ghazzu
Jun. 18, 2006, 10:10 PM
Sannois - I try not to critique other posters, but your ignorance is glaring at this point. My eyes are killing me...
Them half haults are good for them biceps! :-)

Biceps femoris, perhaps.

Karoline
Jun. 18, 2006, 10:14 PM
Can your biceps femoris bulge? I dont think so...Ghazzu? Paging Doc. Ghazzu.

sabryant
Jun. 18, 2006, 10:22 PM
Tonja/Sannois


There are some horses ive been on that are so strong they pull me right up out of the saddle and I''m pretty darn strong in my seat. It takes a good 6 months to a year to turn these horses around! How many horses u been on or trained that have been prior ill-trained?

Tonja
Jun. 19, 2006, 01:38 PM
sabryant wrote:

There are some horses ive been on that are so strong they pull me right up out of the saddle and I''m pretty darn strong in my seat. It takes me a good 6 months to bring them around to the point of not doing this! How many horses u been on or trained that have been prior ill-trained?

In the past I had ridden plenty of horses that were ‘heavy’. Some of them were so heavy I saw a doctor because my neck, shoulders and hands ached so much (looking back on it, I can only imagine how the poor horse’s felt! :cry: ). I used to bring these hoses behind the vertical and teach them to ‘give to the bit,’ as is the common practice, in order to ‘lighten them up’. I was an expert at “getting the horses’ heads down” – ANY horse’s head down – and I was proud that I could do it without draw reins or excessive left and right cranking. I was also able to put just the right amount of +DAP on these horses. I was doing “great” by most people’s standards. I was bringing home ribbons, trophies, high point awards and qualifying scores for my clients who owned these horses.

But inside I knew something wasn’t right. In spite of all of the awards, dressage wasn’t turning out to be the lightness and partnership that I had expected it to be. Maybe it was because as a kid, the first book I read on dressage was Waldemar Seunig’s Horsemanship and even though, at the time, I didn’t understand much of it, some of it must have sunken in. I didn’t see any point in pursuing competition goals any further. The awards were meaningless.

I continued searching high and low for the method I had read about. I finally found someone who taught it. I was shown that the causes of the heaviness were created either by me, the horse’s imbalance, or some kind of comfort issue that the horse had. I learned that by using the simple natural principles of physics (as they apply to circles and tempo, etc…) that incredibly light aids could be used to correct the horses’ imbalance and release the horse’s tension. In fact, I learned how to help horses find their independent balance while being ridden ‘on the buckle’. By not giving the horse a crutch they could find their balance quite easily and willingly. Then as their balance improved they could respond to even lighter and lighter aids. There is a highly refined degree of lightness and harmony out there that has been there all along and is readily attainable but it but it has been drown out and almost lost in the rush to globalization.

slc2
Jun. 19, 2006, 01:46 PM
whats your method? what do you do when a horse pulls on you?

Tonja
Jun. 19, 2006, 02:35 PM
slc2 wrote:

whats your method? what do you do when a horse pulls on you?

It depends on why the horse is heavy. Basically, heaviness is an issue of imbalance. First, I check to make sure that I am not contributing to the horse’s imbalance and that I’m not giving the horse support from the reins. If the horse is heavy because it is not responding to the driving aids then I ask the horse to be more active with its haunches. If the horse is heavy because it’s rushing, I bring the horse onto a circle and let the circle do the work. If the horse is heavy because it’s crooked, I straighten the horse.

egontoast
Jun. 19, 2006, 06:44 PM
In fact, I learned how to help horses find their independent balance while being ridden ‘on the buckle’.

How?Are you trotting on the buckle?

Tonja
Jun. 19, 2006, 07:30 PM
egontoast wrote:

How?Are you trotting on the buckle?

Work 'on the buckle' in all three gaits can help horses find a basic degree of independent balance. I believe that it’s a fundamental part of every horses’ training to be able to walk, trot and canter on the buckle and maintain rhythm.

Sannois
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:09 PM
I sure do use some muscle power in the backs of my shoulders on down in and through to my thighs and upper inside calves. What u mean no muscle power???
You know what I meant!
And Siegi.. Your rudeness is glaring! :eek: What you think of me is of no concern to me.
I stated clearly that i do not feel the use of force is necessary in training a horse properly. The aides may need to be stronger, and yes Back muscles and shoulders come into play.
Wow, I am stupid for continuing on this thread! I will let the "Experts" carry on! :yes:

sm
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:28 PM
post 123: "I continued searching high and low for the method I had read about. I finally found someone who taught it. I was shown that the causes of the heaviness were created either by me, the horse’s imbalance, or some kind of comfort issue that the horse had. I learned that by using the simple natural principles of physics (as they apply to circles and tempo, etc…) that incredibly light aids could be used to correct the horses’ imbalance and release the horse’s tension. In fact, I learned how to help horses find their independent balance while being ridden ‘on the buckle’. By not giving the horse a crutch they could find their balance quite easily and willingly. "

Wow, THAT'S a dressage rider. And no waterskiing...

Yup siegi, take it outside please, go play in the street. It's hard to get a decent discussion going, but there have been some great posts here.

OakesBrae
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:45 PM
Sannois, I'm sure that was a beautiful and eloquent post, but it came across as a bunch of symbols - can anyone else read it? I'm not being sarcastic - it really did!!!

sm
Jun. 19, 2006, 08:52 PM
yes on the symbols, but even so it's much better than siegi's post.

Ghazzu
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:11 PM
post 123: "I continued searching high and low for the method I had read about. I finally found someone who taught it. I was shown that the causes of the heaviness were created either by me, the horse’s imbalance, or some kind of comfort issue that the horse had. I learned that by using the simple natural principles of physics (as they apply to circles and tempo, etc…) that incredibly light aids could be used to correct the horses’ imbalance and release the horse’s tension. In fact, I learned how to help horses find their independent balance while being ridden ‘on the buckle’. By not giving the horse a crutch they could find their balance quite easily and willingly. "

Wow, THAT'S a dressage rider. And no waterskiing....

Hell, even the hunter trainers I've worked with will tell you "It takes two to pull"...

OakesBrae
Jun. 19, 2006, 09:13 PM
Even *laughing* - sorry Ghazzu, that was a funny way of putting it.

siegi b.
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:11 PM
Sannois - I absolutely, positively agree with your last post! :-)

mbm
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:17 PM
Tonja - beautiful Post. Thank you.

I went thru a similar journey and am lucky in finding a trainer that is teaching me how easy and wonderful training can be :)

Sannois
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:27 PM
What I said was You are splitting hairs.. You know what I meant about strength. Not force.!! And I said Siegi your rudeness is glaring!
I also agreed with Tonjas lovely post! OR it was a quote of Sabryants that Tonya posted. Either way, it was what I think Dressage training should be. How it came out as all those symbols is a mystery! Maybe it was a "Troll" :lol:

Sannois
Jun. 19, 2006, 10:49 PM
was just above the strange post. I deleted the one with the symbols now, HAve no idea what that was. I was trying to fix Typos! :lol:

slc2
Jun. 20, 2006, 09:46 AM
so tonja, if a horse pulls, you ride on the buckle?

boy do i have a little boy you need to ride, LOL, you do that, and you will be picking your teeth one by one up off the floor, because he will fall on his face and flip over, and you will be under him.

slc

Sannois
Jun. 20, 2006, 09:59 AM
so tonja, if a horse pulls, you ride on the buckle?

boy do i have a little boy you need to ride, LOL, you do that, and you will be picking your teeth one by one up off the floor, because he will fall on his face and flip over, and you will be under him.

slc
as a reaction to the rider, or to imbalance. More leaning on the hand, which is usually directly related to the riding being heavy.. Many great trainers have said it, they cant pull against nothing. I am sure you will not agree.
My retired eventer got faster the more I took ahold of him. making jumps on Cross country a bit hair raising, it took a clinician to point out that when I gave he quit pulling, and slowed down. I have put a very novice rider on him and let her jump him.. she rode almost on the buckle, he hunted down to the fences.

San Miranda
Jun. 20, 2006, 10:06 AM
Slc are you for real?

I would not like to take you on in an arm wrestle:eek:

Sannois
Jun. 20, 2006, 10:12 AM
Slc are you for real?

I would not like to take you on in an arm wrestle:eek:
That question forever!!! :yes:
Love your quote!!! :):yes:

OakesBrae
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:01 AM
I let them fall. They'll catch themselves - they don't want to do a nosedive any more than you do.

Don't these horses move at liberty or do they all require sidereins every moving moment?????

*eek*

Tonja
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:13 AM
slc wrote:

so tonja, if a horse pulls, you ride on the buckle?

boy do i have a little boy you need to ride, LOL, you do that, and you will be picking your teeth one by one up off the floor, because he will fall on his face and flip over, and you will be under him.

If a horse can’t walk, trot and canter on the buckle then I seriously question the effectiveness of its training in terms of enhancing its balance.

With a horse as unbalanced as you described I would definitely start out ‘on the buckle’ at the walk* and help him find his independent balance before I would pick up contact and move on to work in the trot. Then in the trot, IF the horse started to pull and depending on why he might be pulling, I would restore his balance by either driving him forward (this can be done on the buckle), circling (this can also be done on the buckle), straightening (in the beginning this can be done only to a very small degree on the buckle) or, if the imbalance is severe, I would transition back to the walk and restore the horse’s balance from there (going back to the buckle if needed then reestablishing a positive contact) before attempting the trot again. When the horse can maintain its independent balance it will not pull.

When appropriate, I will work a horse on circles ‘on the buckle’ in all three gaits to improve the horse’s tempo and help the horse understand that it has to carry itself over its own legs. When the horse offers me the degree of balance I’m looking for I take up a contact, being careful not to let the reins support the horse like a crutch.

*If a sound horse is so unbalanced that it can’t walk on the buckle with a rider on its back without falling on its face and flipping over then something is seriously wrong in its training program.

If a horse is being ridden in such a way that it is allowed/encouraged to pull on the rider then there something terribly wrong with the technique being used.

sm
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:16 AM
and here's another thought: turn the horse out LOTS and let the horse be a horse again. Run, gallop, play halter tag. Once they get that down, reintroduce saddle and rider. Do not reintroduce side reins or BTV training!

JSwan
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:18 AM
Yeah - that's what I do too. They shouldn't be hauling on the rider as a 5th leg. No wonder the term "straitjacket" is used.


I let them fall. They'll catch themselves - they don't want to do a nosedive any more than you do.

Don't these horses move at liberty or do they all require sidereins every moving moment?????

*eek*

slc2
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:40 AM
tonja, your idea is quaint and i'm sure many people who have only ridden at training level will think it's absolutely great and the only thing that can be done, but you will never develop a horse's balance that way or be able to have him progress up the levels very far at all. your method only makes it easy on the rider, it does not improve either the rider OR the horse.

and no, you cannot 'let them fall' and believe me, they want to do a nosedive no more than the person on their back, but in that position, that is all they can do. you take everything and make it so the only thing the horse can do is fall on the forehand.

SGray
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:46 AM
methinks that horse of slc2's needs to be checked for epm

Noir
Jun. 20, 2006, 11:53 AM
Stopping a horse from falling on its forehand or into the ground by pulling on the reins is like trying to catch oneself from falling by hanging on to ones belt.

The rider's base of support is the horse.
The base of support is falling.
Better pull hard.

The horse must learn to balance himself by stepping under more from behind. There are many ways to do that. Carrying him around in your hands is not one of those.

JSwan
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:07 PM
Me too. But if this theory is prevalent - I finally know why dressage riders never leave the arena to train on uneven terrain. I had no idea dressage was a bodybuilding exercise.

slc - nice try on the "training level" insult. Sabine does it better, though.




methinks that horse of slc2's needs to be checked for epm

Tonja
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:13 PM
slc wrote:

tonja, your idea is quaint and i'm sure many people who have only ridden at training level will think it's absolutely great and the only thing that can be done, but you will never develop a horse's balance that way or be able to have him progress up the levels very far at all. your method only makes it easy on the rider, it does not improve either the rider OR the horse.

Since you are not familiar with the method, slc, I can see how you might think that but experience proves otherwise.

Work ‘on the buckle’ lays a foundation of basic balance to build on and it clarifies the concept of independent balance to the horse.

Just to clear up one point, I do not advocate working ‘on the buckle’ exclusively. It’s only one element – although a very important element – in the training program.

lstevenson
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:27 PM
so tonja, if a horse pulls, you ride on the buckle?

boy do i have a little boy you need to ride, LOL, you do that, and you will be picking your teeth one by one up off the floor, because he will fall on his face and flip over, and you will be under him.

slc



Wow, this says alot about the way you ride and train slc. :eek:

So you hold your horse up, huh?

What does he do when you are not there to hold him up? Does he flip over while cantering through his pasture?

JSwan
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:31 PM
Hey - don't laugh. I've actually seen horses that are so micromanaged by their riders that yeah - they can't manage to keep from killing themselves unless they're kept in a stall or confined to the arena.

Geez....


Wow, this says alot about the way you ride and train slc. :eek:

So you hold your horse up, huh?

What does he do when you are not there to hold him up? Does he flip over while cantering through his pasture?

slc2
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:34 PM
no, actually, lstevenson, it says alot about how you think about riding.

there actually is something in between attempting (because it isn't possible) to hold up 1200-1800 lbs with your reins, and throwing the reins at them and holding onto the buckle. there actually is something in between the two.

called dressage.

slc

JSwan
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:39 PM
there actually is something in between attempting (because it isn't possible) to hold up 1200-1800 lbs with your reins, and throwing the reins at them and holding onto the buckle. there actually is something in between the two.

called dressage.

slc

Yes, you should try it sometime. It's not supposed to turn us into the Incredible Hulk, either.

If you're horses will flip over if you release the death grip on their head - that's a problem. What you're describing is riding front to back.

lstevenson
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:45 PM
there actually is something in between attempting (because it isn't possible) to hold up 1200-1800 lbs with your reins, and throwing the reins at them and holding onto the buckle. there actually is something in between the two.

called dressage.

slc


:lol: You said :

"so tonja, if a horse pulls, you ride on the buckle?

boy do i have a little boy you need to ride, LOL, you do that, and you will be picking your teeth one by one up off the floor, because he will fall on his face and flip over, and you will be under him."



It doesn't sound like you do the something in the middle, you say you use brute force to keep your horse from falling down or "flipping over"

No, you can't increase your horses balance by riding on the buckle, and you can't do dressage by riding on the buckle. But if you can't ride your horse on the buckle without your horse falling down, then your training has been very, very bad.

Dressage is about training a horse to shift it's center of gravity back, not holding it back with force.

I actually feel sorry for you, slc.

slc2
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:54 PM
that is an absolute lie, i never said that. re-read for comprehension.

there is, in fact, something in between riding with no rein and riding with too much rein. and it's the only way to develop a dressage horse. throwing the reins at them is just as bad as using 'brute force' and too much rein. the results of either are always bad.

there are moments when the rider asks the horse if he has the self carriage, but to go around and around and around with the reins dropped, there are plenty of cases where it only makes matters worse.

think about it. there is something in between the two extremes, and that is what dressage is made of.

lstevenson
Jun. 20, 2006, 12:57 PM
that is an absolute lie, i never said that.



Ummm..... This is your quote.



"so tonja, if a horse pulls, you ride on the buckle?

boy do i have a little boy you need to ride, LOL, you do that, and you will be picking your teeth one by one up off the floor, because he will fall on his face and flip over, and you will be under him."

sm
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:23 PM
"throwing the reins at them is just as bad as using 'brute force' and too much rein. "

Actually, in concept, isn't throwing the reins at them to a degree self carriage? Anyway, the horse should still be balanced and responsive to rider's leg and seat. My God, if we go back to the military, they needed their hands free and a responsive, balanced agile horse that could respond in "any" direction. At what cost is competitive dressage?? Give me a balanced horse that moves well under saddle for christ's sake!!

Tonja
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:46 PM
I completely agree that riding ‘on the buckle’ will contribute to the horse’s imbalance when it’s done incorrectly. But when it’s done correctly it’s an exercise that can help an imbalanced horse instinctively find a certain degree of independent balance. I can understand how those who are not familiar with this method or have only seen it carried out badly would find what I’m saying hard to believe.

OakesBrae
Jun. 20, 2006, 01:54 PM
Riding on the buckle is used to help the horse gain their own balance with rider on board - useful particularly for horses who pull. Then what I do is increase the action behind, and start taking up the slack in the reins until a *very* soft contact is obtained, no more than a few ounces of pressure in the reins. Work continues in there until rythmn and relaxation are obtained. Then the work increases from behind and half halts in the rider's body are used, as well as an elastic contact (hand yields but is largely a boundary - I like to describe it as a rubber fence that the horse runs into) to increase toward collection.

This process takes a long time to obtain, but is attainable and requires no force. At most I have less than a lb of pressure on either rein. I do not like to carry my horse's head - they are heavy. If a horse starts to pull, root, or lean, then I drop them. Unacceptable, they must find their own balance - I am here to aid and guide, not carry or force.

Last I checked, that was still dressage.

Sannois
Jun. 20, 2006, 02:24 PM
Wow, this says alot about the way you ride and train slc. :eek:

So you hold your horse up, huh?

What does he do when you are not there to hold him up? Does he flip over while cantering through his pasture?
All over the monitor... It just caught me off guard! LOL:lol:

Sannois
Jun. 20, 2006, 02:29 PM
so tonja, if a horse pulls, you ride on the buckle?

boy do i have a little boy you need to ride, LOL, you do that, and you will be picking your teeth one by one up off the floor, because he will fall on his face and flip over, and you will be under him.

slc
did you or did you not type this??? :confused:

sm
Jun. 20, 2006, 02:47 PM
...cross country, anyone?

Sannois
Jun. 20, 2006, 03:43 PM
...cross country, anyone?
sm!!! :D :yes: Yeah! Uh huh... dont you just want to ride a horse like that on the Cross country course!

Ghazzu
Jun. 20, 2006, 04:25 PM
sm!!! :D :yes: Yeah! Uh huh... dont you just want to ride a horse like that on the Cross country course!

You'd be walking around with your knuckles scraping the ground afterwards...

sm
Jun. 20, 2006, 04:47 PM
well, not me. My idea of cross country for that poor horse is to walk a hill or two (engage back throughness) and find a grassy spot. Get off, loosen the chin strap, and find a spot to graze. See if the horse remembers how to be a horse. Same way home -- hills.

Sannois
Jun. 20, 2006, 05:09 PM
well, not me. My idea of cross country for that poor horse is to walk a hill or two (engage back throughness) and find a grassy spot. Get off, loosen the chin strap, and find a spot to graze. See if the horse remembers how to be a horse. Same way home -- hills.
I meant that tongue in cheek! :)
I really wish SLC would explain what she meant by that! and why its not a problem with the training???:confused:

sm
Jun. 20, 2006, 05:45 PM
I know Sannois... it's a sorry state of affairs. Who really considers a hack to be cross country anyway, but that poor horse was tortured enough. Can you imagine actually trying to do anything that required balance, it'd blow the horse's mind.

Velvet
Jun. 21, 2006, 02:13 PM
and pigs might fly someday too

Ah, eggie, a poster after my own heart. ;)

Carol Ames
Jun. 23, 2006, 11:56 PM
What has become of starting each session with wtc on loose rein?before taking up:confused: contact, and beginning "work?

Carol Ames
Jun. 24, 2006, 11:04 PM
:eek: Unfortunately this rollkur stuff just "adds fuel to theParellis' , MrsP.., that is fireIs it any wonder people watcht them , and go t tothe /parellis?

Tonja
Jun. 25, 2006, 12:27 AM
Carol Ames wrote:

:eek: Unfortunately this rollkur stuff just "adds fuel to theParellis' , MrsP.., that is fireIs it any wonder people watcht them , and go t tothe /parellis?

No kidding! I wonder if the FEI has any idea how many people are so appalled by the ‘dressage’ training they see that they turn away from dressage in favor of other activities. :no:

Moll
Jun. 25, 2006, 03:03 AM
I wonder if the FEI has any idea how many people are so appalled by the ‘dressage’ training they see that they turn away from dressage in favor of other activities. :no:

I understand them. I've seen abusive training in all disciplines - notably the least in eventing - and the worst was in dressage. Sadly.

You cannot really blame people for thinking dressage is evil, when 99% of what is seen is bad dressage. Yuk.

Horsedances
Jun. 25, 2006, 10:28 AM
I understand them. I've seen abusive training in all disciplines - notably the least in eventing - and the worst was in dressage. Sadly.

You cannot really blame people for thinking dressage is evil, when 99% of what is seen is bad dressage. Yuk.

But the fact is that in the most countries in Europe dressage is growing at very high rates. See the last reports of the Royal Dutch Equestrian Federation.

Some snippets of this report : my translation


Last year the active competition riders in the Netherland has grown with 16%.

Dressage is by far the most populair discipline in the Netherlands.

The last 5 years there were 33 million starts.

80% of the dressage-riders are female.

The average cost per year paid for their sport is Euro 600,= for non-horse owners
2.700,= for horse owners

81 % of the riders do also ride in the woods, greenfields or seaside.



Theo