11 videos of rollkur (new vids added/new riders)

[mbm]

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=ulrikethiel

supposedly there will be more posted as time goes by of more different riders etc.

it will be interesting to see what transpires will all the renewed agitation.

edited 06.16.06 to fix and to note that there are now 11 videos posted with different riders

[fiona]

You say Vomit, i say Vendetta
Lets call the whole thing off.....

[SGray]

You say Vomit, i say Vendetta
Lets call the whole thing off.....

a vendetta? meaning that you disagree with the method demonstrated therein?

[OakesBrae]

No, fiona thinks that the producer of the videos has a problem with Anky herself.

[Sabine]

And Fiona is right...:)

[MeredithTX]

I've stayed out of this whole debate, but these videos certainly made me uncomfortable. =/

[WBLover]

Well it certainly goes to show for those who say the photographs are just a moment in time and that these horses are hyperflexed, or put in RK, or whatever it's called, for just a moment--not true!! They are ridden with their chins in their chests throughout these videos!!!

I've tried to stay out of these too, but Yuck!!

[Sannois]

And Fiona is right...:)
No one give a rats ass if its Anky, or Mickey mouse riding that way.
Its plain not Dressage. The fact that you all agree with it but will not even say why , just that none of us know our ass from page eight is what makes most folks mad! :no:

[Sannois]

Well it certainly goes to show for those who say the photographs are just a moment in time, that these horses are not hyperflexed, or put in RK, or whatever it's called, for just a moment, they are ridden this way throughout.

I've tried to stay out of these too, but Yuck!!
The horses head was never released. :eek:

[class]

No, fiona thinks that the producer of the videos has a problem with Anky herself.

maybe the producer of the videos is anky's biggest fan and loves to tape her riding. it only becomes a "problem" or a "vendetta" if what you see is something that you *personally interpret* as anky doing awful or ugly.

if i showed my SO, who knows nothing about riding, "look babe, a video of anky warming up her horse." he would say, "that's nice." he wouldn't say, "why would somebody post such a video?? they must have a problem with anky! how mean of that videographer!!"

[Daydream Believer]

That is digusting. Watch # 5 and see the horrible quality of the work itself..the canter is terrible and the horse is scooting and flat...horrible. Didn't Nuno get torn up not long ago for a 3 second video of 4 beat canter...well here is a lot more video of canter work that is just as bad if not worse for a large part of the warmup. It makes me sick to see horses ridden like that. As for calling this a warmup exercise...My God...she does it for nearly the entire ride! Where is the vomit icon? :dead:

[ideayoda]

So, the person who filmed warmups at Aachen 25 years ago had a vendetta against Uphoff???? Gimme a break! Its documentation of WHAT IS BEING DONE, repeatedly. It was in the background with five horses when Anky did her interview about the death of the jr yg rider horse on dutch tv (her choice of backgrounds), it is done by the (then) 12 yr old son (an expert I presume too) for another interview, and it is done for hours in warm ups. IF they are pround of being able to use the method, then why not show it to the world? Whats the problem, except that SJ wants to make $$ off her image. The only time the horse is released is when the horse stays down, otherwise its spurred down again. A finished gp horse should work on the hint of aids, great applications shouldnt be necessary. What is most interesting for me, is the body postures of those watching which were/are the same 25 years ago watching Uphoff at Aachen or today....crossed arms and partially turned bodies and looking down alot. Sorta says how many disagree without saying it.

[J Swan]

You say Vomit, i say Vendetta
Lets call the whole thing off.....

You may be right - but since time and time again we're seeing evidence of Rollkur used in a way that is not condoned by the FEI, and that even the users of the method claim isn't happening - well - I ask - what's a person to think??

A person can claim that their method is only used for a few seconds, and as an exercise, "horse-yoga", stretching- or whatever term you want to use. But these videos disprove those assertions. Assertions made by some of the very same people in those videos.

So were they lying then or are they lying now?

[Moll]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFSUs8_zw&mode=related&search=rollkur

I don't care who you are or how many medals you win. You don't do that to a horse. :no:

[fiona]

You say Vomit, i say Vendetta
Lets call the whole thing off.....

Thanks for the insight into what i think but that was actually a joke because these videos have already been posted and i thought we covered all that.

I haven't at any point commented on the content of the videos, i did say i could understand why people may think it is a vendetta because 6 video clips suddenly appear on a free to view web site posted by one person featuring one rider. A person connected to them via an ongoing campaign posted the link (edited to add: twice) on another public website alerting readers to their existence. In my opinion the rider featured may take the view that the person posting the videos has a problem with them and feel aggrieved.The statement written over one of the videos denying any wish to do harm does not seem entirely convincing. IMHO.

It's just another point of view, go on try and see it. I can see all sides of this argument, it's really not that hard. Thanks for the support Sabina, on this i think i am truly right and whatever the merit of the anti rk argument the method undermines it.

[J Swan]

Perhaps a new thread was started in the hopes of a fresh start- and not to quibble over disclaiming text.

What you may see as a vendetta - another may see as a crusade - and another tilting at windmills.

Regardless - I think there's enough controversery surrounding the method to warrant intense scrutiny.

Thanks for the insight into what i think but that was actually a joke because these videos have already been posted and i thought we covered all that.

I haven't at any point commented on the content of the videos, i did say i could understand why people may think it is a vendetta because 6 video clips suddenly appear on a free to view web site posted by one person featuring one rider. A person connected to them via an ongoing campaign posted the link (edited to add: twice) on another public website alerting readers to their existence. In my opinion the rider featured may take the view that the person posting the videos has a problem with them and feel aggrieved.The statement written over one of the videos denying any wish to do harm does not seem entirely convincing. IMHO.

It's just another point of view, go on try and see it. I can see all sides of this argument, it's really not that hard. Thanks for the support Sabina, on this i think i am truly right and whatever the merit of the anti rk argument the method undermines it.

[sm]

"It's just another point of view, go on try and see it. I can see all sides of this argument, it's really not that hard. Thanks for the support Sabina, on this i think i am truly right and whatever the merit of the anti rk argument the method undermines it."

What are we talking about now, warm-up methods shown despite the closed door secrecy? Is that the method that undermines the anti rk argument? Quite frankly, if a team represents a country, people of that country have a right to see what's going on. And if my dollars go to support the FEI, and they do, then I have a right to know what's going on and exactly what I am supporting (or contributing to) with my dollars.

Are we really saying that photojournalism (more precisely videojournalism, but that probably isn't even a word) is not a good thing? Or am I missing fiona's point?

[RidesAHaflinger]

Ugly. Very ugly. It makes my neck hurt and it makes me dizzy to watch. Where's the Queasy Face when you need it?

[solargal]

I know nothing about this, but my question is...It seems to be more than one or two riders doing this in the background to some degree. Is this the case, or am I wrong, because I don't have any dressage experience, and two, is this more common here or in other countries?

[sm]

thanks mbm for the tread. Keep 'em coming.

I don't like having my head in the sand, or like the rollured horses only ALLOWED to see the dirt. To carry on the US Constituion analogy already started on the other RK thread, and the women's right to vote analogy: to demand training be kept secret is the equivalent of the old saying, "keep the women barefoot and in the kitchen."

My compliments to the photojouralist(s), God bless. Keep 'em coming.

[claire]

I watched the video(s) OK. Blank Slate :)
I am sincerely trying to understand. Would anyone like to explain to this poor ex-H/J princess ;)

video #5
1.) This is a video of RK being done by "educated" hands or an example of "Good RK"?

2.) Exactly what is the rider trying to achieve in this warm-up?
To my (uneducated) eye the horse seems to be unbalanced thru the corners...sort of leaning in? Is that because of the extreme btv positioning? Or is that being done for some purpose?

Also, much of the canter work seems to be :confused: unbalanced???

I am sincerely trying to understand...so could someone help me out here?

Perhaps I am just looking at it from a Hunter perspective and this IS correct dressage work? :confused:

Thanks!

[Lisa Cook]

I remember several comments along the nature of: "rollkur can't be judged based on photographs because pictures capture but a moment of time.".

Huh. The giant sucking noise I hear is that argument being flushed down the toliet. Rollkur looks just as horrific on video, especially when 5 straight minutes of video go by where the horse is not once released from the position of rollkur.

[Sannois]

I sound like a broken record. You of the Rollkur camp think those videos are pretty?? Is that what Dressage is all about??
I sent them to my S judge trainer and she was sickened. She again has said, the Judges are partially to blame, They know whats going on they are rewarding the results.

[trailblazzer]

Rollkur is disgusting and I would never let someone who trains that way ANYWHERE near my horses! :mad: I also wouldn't let anyone who DEFENDS these un-riders near my horses. It's not that I'm picky or overprotective. It's that the type of person who sees ANYTHING positive in rollkur is a MENACE. :(

[Sannois]

So, the person who filmed warmups at Aachen 25 years ago had a vendetta against Uphoff???? Gimme a break! Its documentation of WHAT IS BEING DONE, repeatedly. It was in the background with five horses when Anky did her interview about the death of the jr yg rider horse on dutch tv (her choice of backgrounds), it is done by the (then) 12 yr old son (an expert I presume too) for another interview, and it is done for hours in warm ups. IF they are pround of being able to use the method, then why not show it to the world? Whats the problem, except that SJ wants to make $$ off her image. The only time the horse is released is when the horse stays down, otherwise its spurred down again. A finished gp horse should work on the hint of aids, great applications shouldnt be necessary. What is most interesting for me, is the body postures of those watching which were/are the same 25 years ago watching Uphoff at Aachen or today....crossed arms and partially turned bodies and looking down alot. Sorta says how many disagree without saying it.
I just went back and watched the 5th Video again, and your right about the folks standing around. Almost ashamed, or stunned surprise..
And someone one said that the other horses were doing it. no not all. There a bright chestnut in there that is doing lovely work NON Rollkur!

[Aptor Hours]

Well it doesn't look like abuse to me. I would only know it is abusive unless somebody told me huh oh well.

[Caroline Weber]

I watched the video(s) OK. Blank Slate :)
I am sincerely trying to understand. Would anyone like to explain to this poor ex-H/J princess ;)

video #5
1.) This is a video of RK being done by "educated" hands or an example of "Good RK"?

2.) Exactly what is the rider trying to achieve in this warm-up?
To my (uneducated) eye the horse seems to be unbalanced thru the corners...sort of leaning in? Is that because of the extreme btv positioning? Or is that being done for some purpose?

Also, much of the canter work seems to be :confused: unbalanced???

I am sincerely trying to understand...so could someone help me out here?

Perhaps I am just looking at it from a Hunter perspective and this IS correct dressage work? :confused:

Thanks!

HECK no, this is NOT correct dressage work. The horse does appear quite unbalanced. However, I am not going to take part in the Zwangsjacke debate, largely because I have had no experience with it myself, and thus am not qualified to debate pros/cons/results et cetera.

I will say this: no horse of mine, or any horse ever in training with me, will be subjected to this. I find it sickening.

(edited for typo)

[Arcadien]

Okay, after watching it twice, prepared to be horrified...

I'm feeling confused. Am I the only one who was less offended by the video than by the still pictures?

I know it's not how it's supposed to be, and would rather that horse be doing all that with his nose not BTV and his poll highest point, based on all I've read & felt & been taught.

But... (disclaimer I'm only a Prelim eventer who at best has done 1st level well, schooling 2nd) ... but well the horse just didn't look in that much distress, or discomfort, as I'd thought might be possible from the still pics! I was prepared to see massive distress and whatever he was being asked to do there, he just doesn't seem that concerned about it....
He might be reaching more under from behind, and steadier in his gaits & transitions, but this was a warmup and, well... he just didn't seem much that concerned about her dictation of where his head should be.... at least not to me.

Is it just that he's used to it and accepts it as a way of things? I'd like to see a younger horse, maybe, being subject to this - do they start rollkur right off or let them go genuine long & low at first?

Struggling, as I had thought rollkur a horrid idea, but that video just showed a bunch of dressage horses warming up who knew what was going on and knew what was coming, to me ---- not a bunch of abused horses, like I feel when I view "big lick" stuff or uneducated riders...

Help! (nother disclaimer, I'm new to this whole debate, been too busy galloping & jumping etc, LoL - so please don't flame me, no hardliner here, just suprised at my reaction to this video)

Help me understand where I stand on this!

Thx,
Arcadien

[Carol Ames]

Ideayoda excellent pointabout the onlookers, " dessage makesthe horses more beautiful "" can dfinitely NOT be said about these poor horses these o :no: :no: . I found it interesting that when after f she puts her hand forward to pat him on the h neck,the horse never even seeks to lengthen his neck. you suppose thatthese horses can even do that? THe one big bayhorse is so uneven behind in medium trot that what that gait is supposed tobe? He should be considerd bporderline lame", and examined by the show vet.His movement is similarto horse s withstringhalt.:mad:

[physical.energy]

I'ts not just ugly, it totally gross and sad! :dead:
Can we say control issues?

[nero]

Hey I'm sure I'm about to lose all my fans ;-) BUT what's the big deal. After all the hysteria here and on the other thread I was expecting to see Anky cutting off a horses head and feeding it to the dogs. Icentos is very deep for about a minute then she lets him out long and low and deep to walk, and we know by the agenda of the web site host that this is the very worst evidence she could find - so if that's the worst Icentos was exposed to I have no problem with it. Its doesn't look pretty BUT sometimes schooling aint pretty and the horse is being suppled and being asked to come between the hand and the leg and he is responding. Then they walk. Then the video stops.

As for the Krack C footage, I think he is giving her a hell of a lot of hind leg, is deep not rk'd and looks extremeley expressive and mostly relaxed for a horse being asked to give some pretty impressive gp movements - this is all good yes??? - he is giving her more activity behind then ay of the other horses in the arena. His irregualrity in the paces is because she is schooling and asking for him to come off the leg - fine tuning him, he looks the same as Idool in the saddletude clip, I never had a problem with that either.

Now I would never choose to put a horse as deep as Icentos myself, even if I could I don't think because I'd lose the back end for sure, but Anky knows what she is doing and she was not losing the back end, the horse was deep for a minute or two - I can't see the crime punishable by death that all you are seeing.

[Aptor Hours]

I'm not a dressage rider so maybe that is why the video looked fine to me. Couldn't find any abuse in it???? Again though I don't compete dressage.

[trailblazzer]

Who cares if it is abuse? It's a moot point. What is certain is that the video displays TERRIBLE horsemanship from a true know-nothing. If you approve of that kind of "riding," please let me know so I can put you on my blacklist!

[OakesBrae]

Aptor Hours, it is debatable whether it is abuse or not.

What it *is* is *very* incorrect. If I saw any one of my students with their horse's head behind the vertical, bending them with no release, no stretch, and kicking them from behind, I'd yank them off their horse so fast their head would spin.

I did see the lovely chestnut who appeared to be doing correct work off of a soft rein. There were two(?) other bays who were both in rk though. And my point to that was simply - it's not a vendetta against anky. Who gives a rats patootie who it is that is riding like this - it's just incorrect at the least, and abusive at worst.

[nero]

Aptor Hours, it is debatable whether it is abuse or not.

What it *is* is *very* incorrect. Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.

[OakesBrae]

Um - okay - so is it okay for me to pole my jumper in the warmup ring as long as I ride "correctly' in competition?

Does that make sense? I don't think so - and neither does the USEF.

[J Swan]

Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.

Uh - that isn't cross training.

[trailblazzer]

Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.
What difference does it make that this is schooling? I guess if you only care about ribbons, what goes on outside of the show ring doesn't matter. But you're not one of those people, are you?

And I don't see how you can call this cross training. If you want real cross-training, why don't we see her hack her horses (WITHOUT draw reins), jump them, teach them to drive, do western, etc. This rollkur crap is more like un-training than anything...

[doccer]

I had a long l-o-n-g post going.... summed up --

gross :dead:

When a creature doesn't know life can be different, it's easy to persuade him that what they have is the way it should be.

My uneducated eye saw the rider very tense in the shoulder and 'pulling' -- my computer is sloooow too so we saw it in 2sec intervals-- horse swishing their tails yet being obedient.

I can't wait to see Rollkur added to 2nd level movements :no: because it's a 'training' aid -- just like we use the 'stretchy circle' in the trot to show the horse seeking contact. Rollkur is just riding in draw reins without the draw reins, all the time... every ride. It's not training, it's a gadget.

It won't be long until this trickles down to first and training level because "oh,*insert name here* does Rollkur blah blah blah, i'm only doing training but RK will make me win. " :rolleyes: To nip this in the bud, any horse going EVEN SLIGHTLY behind the vertical should become a 5point deduction from that specific movement in a show. Maybe that would be incentive not to school BTV, no matter how you sugar coat it, that's all RK is.

[nero]

Um - okay - so is it okay for me to pole my jumper in the warmup ring as long as I ride "correctly' in competition?

Does that make sense? I don't think so - and neither does the USEF. Well poling is seen as cruel, the jury is still out on whether rk is. THAT's the diff.

[trailblazzer]

The funniest part is when the DQs come out guns ablazin' and bash big lick/Parelli/western pleasure, etc. Dressage is more correct or legit than those disciplines? Riiiiiight...:rolleyes:

[trailblazzer]

Well poling is seen as cruel, the jury is still out on whether rk is. THAT's the diff.
How is poling cruel? I think the jury is still out on that one too. :yes:

[Sannois]

Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.
CROSS training??? OH get real!!!
Let me use a tack pole on my jumper right?? Then I can go in the ring and win and that makes it OK???
Wonderful ethics you have! :no:

[Sannois]

Well poling is seen as cruel, the jury is still out on whether rk is. THAT's the diff.
It is acceptable Dressage is that correct??:eek:
Forget if its cruel or not, it is NOT what Dressage is about! But its ok to you and Sabryant and others because it earns high marks and medals in the ring?? You are incredible!

[YoungFilly]

Guys, trust the people who ride dressage, this is absolutely not okay. I believed that people were catching Anky in 'moments of time' until I just saw these videos. This is not the way dressage horses are to be trained. I believe in the training scale, because it is effective and takes into account the well being of the horse.

I actually feel embarrassed for her. These video's are very shameful, and a lot of people who believe in her are going to be very disturbed by seeing this.

I don't know if this will be banned but it definately should be. I gave Anky the benefit of the doubt, but after seeing this, I really think this is extremely wrong.

[J Swan]

"(disclaimer I'm only a Prelim eventer who at best has done 1st level well, schooling 2nd) ... "

Heck - I don't even event anymore - I just foxhunt. No disclaimer needed for me...

Think about your own riding, and what you ask of your horse in dressage - because I don't care what the dressage only folks think - eventers do lovely correct dressage work even though their horses don't have a brand on their butts.

One of the accusations that has been made is that these horses have become so contorted - so pulled in through the use of excessive force on the curb - the result is a parody of correct work. There is no real balance, there is no harmony - and most of all - the horse is extremely tense. And since the judges reward it with high marks.... it continues and grows in popularity.

What I'm seeing is what my instructors beat into my head as completely inappropriate and wrong wrong wrong. The crank and spank. Crank that horse's head in to its chest - and in - and in - and then spur spur spur - lean into that curb - spur spur spur - force that horse into an extreme position with the curb, when it slows, then get some semblance of motion using the spur.

So the horse cannot go forward - and cannot go backward - he can't rear, he can't buck. So you get the boing boing boing and an extremely tense horse.

Now would you want to take such a horse - a horse that has become accustomed to excessively heavy aids - and is used to not moving until the rider cranks on his mouth or spurs him - would you want to take him on a xc course? I wouldn't - not for all the tea in China. I'd be scared for both of us.

Not a very elegant way of putting it I admit -and others have a far more eloquent way of describing it - and I'm not against using different methods in an attempt to overcome a training problem, or to encourage a horse to develop its topline, etc.

But excessive use of the curb and spur - especially to produce an artificial result - just isn't appropriate.

That's what I'm seeing in those videos. Extreme crank and spank. I don't care if it's Anky - or Mother Theresa; it makes no difference to me. I'm not the groupie type, and I don't idolize people - so really - I don't care who's doing it.

And doccer makes another good point - and we've seen it here on this BB. The trickle down effect. The "you're just jealous of Anky and you don't have any gold medals" defense", etc.

How long before we see local dressage shows packed with Training level riders emulating Anky? Hell - we've got judges penalizing Intro and Training level riders for not being on the bit - when it isn't even a requirement for that level. How ong before judges start rewarding lower level riders for this type of riding?

Personally - I hope the FEI puts its foot down and defines what methods will be considered appropriate in warmup - and then have the Stewards yank a few riders out and eliminate them if those rules are not followed. If other sports have to do it - so should dressage. Dressage isn't the noble lofty art that has been claimed - it needs scrutiny just like the other sports.

[TatteredDaydreamer]

this makes me want tho throw up......maybe I don't want to get back into dressage anymore!!!:(

[Sannois]

Guys, trust the people who ride dressage, this is absolutely not okay. I believed that people were catching Anky in 'moments of time' until I just saw these videos. This is not the way dressage horses are to be trained. I believe in the training scale, because it is effective and takes into account the well being of the horse.

I actually feel embarrassed for her. These video's are very shameful, and a lot of people who believe in her are going to be very disturbed by seeing this.

I don't know if this will be banned but it definately should be. I gave Anky the benefit of the doubt, but after seeing this, I really think this is extremely wrong.
I agree. I know quite a few upper level Dressage riders, and none of them have anything good to say about this method. A few I have spoke to just shake their heads.

[Dressage_Rider]

I am sorry does anyone find this pretty? I find it cruel and the horse is so uncomfortable. I think I saw somewhere in the beginning the horse twitching his lip that usually means something is bothering him. My God there cannot be someone that sees this beautiful and great. The horse defiantly looks forced and there is nothing beautiful about it. Plain disgusting.

[Daydream Believer]

On our local NC board we have a Rollkur discussion underway in our Voice for the Horses forum which is dedicated to horse welfare. I am going to copy paste some of the comments from non dressage riders for you to read. Many of these folks are pleasure riders, western show folks, and games riders. These comments were after seeing the Horses for Life site...and only the last poster has had a look at the videos. I posted the link over there as well this evening after seeing these videos earlier. Take heed dressage folks...this is what other disciplines are saying....


"ok, here is my personal opinion:

This is a sad case of wanting a certain look. A bowed neck does look pretty if held in a ergonomically correct manner. This is not. Aside from it's just not possibly being comfortable for the horse, it must be physically damaging as well. The horse look stressed. Just try holding your own neck in that position and see how long before you can't stand it anymore. But you can stop when you want. Nuff said."

"How do they expect the horses to fully use themselves when they can't even get their heads out of their chest?? There's no way they can fully use their hindquarters and really round themselves while having to carry their neck in such a way.

That's really sad that it's come to that..."

"Those horses look like they are in total agony. Every discipline has its fair share of cruel training methods but that is just soooo un-natural."

"I am adding to this post only because I am blown away by the way humans treat horses in the name of winning and training.

I know nothing, or very little about dressage and even less about this cruel way of riding. I just know it is pathetic and unnecessary.
I really do not understand why anyone wants to ride this way....what possible purpose does it serve? What possible reason did it come about, who started it and why?
If it is so hurtful (and it certainly is) , then WHY do judges and trainers allow it? These are questions I know we cannot answer, but certainly should make us think about why we show and what we get out of it.
Do we show because WE want to win, or because it helps us understand our horses better...what made this way of training and riding come about?"

"Not only is it cruel, but what exactly is the twisted logic behind using such a method? Those horses are behind the bit, which is not at all what you want in dressage."

"That's so wrong. I would love to have the skill and resources these riders have, but what do they do with them? The torture their partners! It's unreal!"

"OMG. I don't know much about dressage, and have only seen pics of this for the first time now. I never even knew horses necks could bend like that!! I always thought their neck helped tham balance, how in the world does that help them balance? And, now this may be a stupid question, but is there supposed to be THAT much tension on the shanked bit at all times?"

I think this last comment of the poster who watched the video is very damning. She is a western rider. If SHE could see that tension on the curb, you know it's not an illusion.

[Aptor Hours]

The funniest part is when the DQs come out guns ablazin' and bash big lick/Parelli/western pleasure, etc. Dressage is more correct or legit than those disciplines? Riiiiiight...:rolleyes:


Good point. It does seem like sometimes Dressage people forget that Dressage is not "the one true way" and that other styles are just as correct. Needless to say this doesn't apply to all posters.

I watched the video again and I don't see the cruelty. I certainly wouldn't want my horse with his head that low but there is no way that he would be allowed to stretch his head out during his time in the show ring. He can stretch it out the other 23.5 hours of the day though if he so chooses LOL.

[YoungFilly]

Quote "I think this last comment of the poster who watched the video is very damning. She is a western rider. If SHE could see that tension on the curb, you know it's not an illusion."

Of course is damning. My SO could see this also and know its wrong. It IS wrong. I am sorry Anky. It is wrong.

[nero]

It is acceptable Dressage is that correct??:eek:
Forget if its cruel or not, it is NOT what Dressage is about! But its ok to you and Sabryant and others because it earns high marks and medals in the ring?? You are incredible! no i didn't say that, i think its acceptable because a i don't think its abusive, b it allows anky to produce some amazing results, so from my pov what's the problem IF i thought it was cruel I'd be against it. I don't. period.

[ise@ssl]

Well these videos are bad enough but thinking about horses being ridden like this EVERY DAY and not just in a warm up makes my whole body hurt.

I just wish those who use the method would state it up front - so those who oppose it won't find out a horse they bred or had owned is living in this torture chamber.

[nero]

What difference does it make that this is schooling? I guess if you only care about ribbons, what goes on outside of the show ring doesn't matter. But you're not one of those people, are you?

And I don't see how you can call this cross training. If you want real cross-training, why don't we see her hack her horses (WITHOUT draw reins), jump them, teach them to drive, do western, etc. This rollkur crap is more like un-training than anything...
Actually she does do these things as well.

[OakesBrae]

Anky rides her horses Western?

This I MUST see.

[trailblazzer]

it allows anky to produce some amazingly bad results
corrected

[nero]

Anky rides her horses Western?

This I MUST see.Yup, you'd be surprised, she actually subscribes to the more western ideas for a lot of her training than traditional dressage, she spoke about it at a recent clininc I attended of hers, she works with western riders in Holland, there are even pics of her on her website riding in a western saddle on a western trained horse.

[nero]

correcteddon't be a smarta$#@ tb, quit rewording my posts, you just look like a fool

[trailblazzer]

Yup, you'd be surprised, she actually subscribes to the more western ideas for a lot of her training than traditional dressage, she spoke about it at a recent clininc I attended of hers, she works with western riders in Holland, there are even pics of her on her website riding in a western saddle on a western trained horse.
There are pictures of her in a dressage saddle as well, but that doesn't mean that she knows what she is doing. Anyone can buy a saddle. :yes:

Let's see some pictures of Salinero being galloped in the field in a snaffle. How about hacking out bareback with just a halter. Let's see him compete in a trail class. And what about combined driving? And for a horse of his "caliber," training or even prelim eventing should be a piece of cake. THAT is cross-training! Not going around with a shortened neck and a death grip on the reins... :sleepy:

[trailblazzer]

don't be a smarta$#@ tb, quit rewording my posts, you just look like a fool
While I'm flattered, I don't think I could ever compete with you. YOU are the expert, after all! :yes:

[Sannois]

no i didn't say that, i think its acceptable because a i don't think its abusive, b it allows anky to produce some amazing results, so from my pov what's the problem IF i thought it was cruel I'd be against it. I don't. period.
I never said it was cruel.. others words. I said how is that Correct Dressage?? And Who says the results she gets are amazing?? the Judges?? BAck to square one.. Why is that extravagance Correct. And how is that What dressage training all about??

[Judi]

no i didn't say that, i think its acceptable because a i don't think its abusive, b it allows anky to produce some amazing results, so from my pov what's the problem IF i thought it was cruel I'd be against it. I don't. period.

It's folks like you who are responsible for this training technique. You see Nero... you are so blinded by your hero worship of Anky that you can't see what almost every other horseperson see's. A horse that is NOT HAPPY and is moving unnatural!!!!!! Dressage is supposed to be the ultimate in harmony between horse and rider. But watching Anky and her horses in the ring has always looked to me like watching performing Circus horses. The movements of her horses look Unnatural... Extravagent... Yes.. but not natural.

Why do judges award that? Horse's don't move that way on their own.. so why would a judge think a big high front end with a back end that doesn't match is something to inspire to?

I'm ashamed of the judges who only look at the front end of a horse and not his entire top line and back end engagement. It is indeed the International Dressage Community of Judges who have created Anky and her like. If they would simply abhor the extreme flamboyant moves and look at them as what they are... unnatural flamboyant movements from horses who have been subjected to extreme controlling trick training techniques.

But I'm curious Nero...if the ends does indeed justify the means would you agree with putting ginger up a horses rear because they lift thier tail higher in the saddlebreds? I mean it doesn't Harm them.. it only irritates them right? It's the same thing to me..

AND when they do find out that the horses are harmed (and I can't believe that you can't see these horses are stressed and unhappy... or don't care)... when the FEI finally decides it is harmful, will you still defend this training trick?

[Sannois]

The same points I have been trying to make. But am always ignored!
As an aside, I see you too are an eventer, and upon looking at your profile, see that you engange in Cross Country abuse of your Lovely horse! He is gorgeous! And looks truly miserable in his job!!! :lol: NOT!!!
I know, It belongs on the Eventing is abusive thread, but I just had to compliment you on your lovely horse! ;)

[Ghazzu]

But watching Anky and her horses in the ring has always looked to me like watching performing Circus horses.
I have had the pleasure of watching circus horses trained, and I suspect that the trainer would be insulted by this analogy--her horses were not being forced.
They were happy.

In fact, I was asked to find a home for one of her liberty stallions, because, although he was going through the motions, he was not happy in his job.
(It was a hoot to be able to advertise said stallion as "bombproof--not afraid of elephants.")

[MissFit]

but this quote just made my night!

It was a hoot to be able to advertise said stallion as "bombproof--not afraid of elephants." :D

[fiona]

Let's try and get this straight.

I say the way these videos have been posted on Youtube and touted for viewing it appears to be a vendetta against one rider. You say no it's a campaign against a training method and it's about lots of riders. I point out all the videos feature one named rider (which is why it would look to them like it's a vendetta) and that undermines your view that it's a campaign against the method as oppose to the person.

I can see why you think it's a campaign i can see why anky and sjef and others would see it as a vendetta. 2 points of view - i get both, we call it seeing both sides of an argument.

I have still said NOTHING about the training method or the content of the videos or still pictures. Do not put words in my mouth you don't know my opinion.

[equusrocks]

Anky rides her horses Western?

This I MUST see.

Funny you should say that...from watching video #2, I actually thought her upper body and hands looked very much like some of the warm-ups I've seen from the WP/HUS people. When the video gets to around 1:30 and you have a front view of the horse/rider, pause it and take a look. That pose is what reminded me. (Don't flame me WP people...by this I mean when "peanut pushers" were the IN thing, and people schooled with wide set piano hands and draw reins or training forks) The only difference I guess, is (and I hate saying this) I think some of the WP people are a bit more forgiving with the chin-to-the-chest thing, nowadays anyway. I like dressage, but I'll pass if *that* is what it takes to get anywhere. I don't care who it is doing it.

Sannois, I agree...boy, the more I think about it, the more similarities I've seen with WP and dressage in these videos. Except, the AQHA has actually taken initiative and responsibility, and has made an active effort to eliminate peanut pushers, and thus the methods used to achieve the desired dramatic, instant effect...for the good of the horse.

[nero]

gee i don't need to write anything more here, with you guys putting so many words into my mouth, even saying i probably justify putting ginger up a horses bum - what a rude human YOU are - and if i think this is not abusive its because i'm blinded by my hero worship of anky. well you are actually wrong but I'm not really that interested in defending myself here - your opinion of me ain't my problem its yours.

BUT tb if you read my post properly you will see where I wrote that Anky has spoken often in clinics, including one I attended, about how she uses many western principals, it was a bit more substantial than just sitting in a western saddle, I just threw that in as an extra point of interest.

[physical.energy]

Horse Show In Heaven


One day in heaven, Saint Peter, Saint Paul and Saint John were standing around near the horse paddocks watching the horses frolic. "I am certainly bored," stated John. "Me too," Paul chimed as Peter stood and watched the horses. "I know!" Peter began. "Why don't we have a horse show?" Paul and John thought that the idea was great except for one small detail that Paul pointed out. "Who are we to compete against, Peter?" Paul asked. The trio pondered a moment when Peter realized the answer. "We will call up Satan and invite him to the horse show. I mean, we have all of the finest horses here in heaven, all of the World and National Champions are here. His stable is ridden with the spoiled, difficult and mean horses. We are certain to win at the show!" And so the trio calls up Satan on the other realm communication lines and invited him to their horse show. Satan laughed and asked why they would want to be humiliated like that, because he would certainly beat them. Peter, Paul and John did not understand. "What do you mean Satan?" Peter asked. "We have all of the National and World Champion horses in our stable in heaven. How could you possibly beat us? Satan paused a moment and then laughed. "Have you forgotten so soon gentlemen?

I have all the judges!"
>

[sabryant]

I know I will catch hell for this and get mis-quoted all over the place, but I see beauty here. I see a horse that is completely loose in every fiber, muscle, joint, tendon, ligament of it's body. A totally, completely loose and submissive horse that does not looked stressed in the least! I see a horse that travels across the ground and puts his foot down softly instead of slapping the ground with it's hooves every stride because it is so stiffled by it's rider. I can see why Anky's horses stay sound and ridable way into their 20's. I see a top athelete ready to put in a spectacular test because he is suppled and loosened to the nth degree. I watched all of the videos and I saw no abuse rather just the opposite!

[equusrocks]

:lol: That's too cute P.E. I'll have to share that with a couple friends. :winkgrin:

[sabryant]

That is funny PE. Thanks for the laugh!

[Rusty Stirrup]

Geez PE, now I have coffee all over the keyboard!

[JackieBlue]

Uh - that isn't cross training.

And RK is? I didn't know rk was a riding discipline unto itself.

[nero]

I know I will catch hell for this and get mis-quoted all over the place, but I see beauty here. I see a horse that is completely loose in every fiber, muscle, joint, tendon, ligament of it's body. A totally, completely loose and submissive horse that does not looked stressed in the least! I see a horse that travels across the ground and puts his foot down softly instead of slapping the ground with it's hooves every stide because it is so stiffled by it's rider. I can see why Anky's horses stay sound and ridable way into their 20's. I see a top athelete ready to put in a spectacular test because he is suppled and loosened to the nth degree. I watched all of the video and I saw no abuse rather just the opposite!

ditto, thank god there is someone out there who sees what I see. sabryant, you and I are obviously going to hell, and taking avg with us!! ;-)

You see the truth is I do not think anky is god/perfect/beyond reproach, I see salinero not tracking up as much as he could in lengthen trot, I see a swinging piaffe at times and I see a sometimes tense horse ready to go sooo much that he doesn't like to be stationary BUT and this is a huge but, his flaws have NOTHING to do with rollkur, in fact, tracking his progress, Anky's training methods have addressed and helped these flaws not crreated them. Salinero is getting BETTER all the time, so if rk is so bad why is this the case? And if I can see EXACTLY the same flaws (often worse examples of) in classically trained horses who have gone nowhere near rk then how can rk and these problems be mutually exclusive? And if they ARE NOT mutually exclusive how can you blame rk for creating these flaws??????????

HOw anyone can blame rk for lack of activity in the hind end AND witness the incredible back end of Krack C in those videos is beyond me.

[Dressage_Rider]

I have few questions. Did someone teach Anky to ride like that? Where did she come up with this? Is it just the look that she likes? I mean I really want to know what a person thinks when they force their horse into this form. Does she really think it's correct and a better way to ride the horse? Personally I think that's screwing up the horse not teach it or ride it. In that video you can see other riders ride and I have not seen anyone but her ride the horse this way.

[J Swan]

Hmmm - I saw the opposite - and tell you what I also saw - I saw folks who insist rollkur is only done for a moment, that it does not involve force, and that it is a stretching exercise - well - they were blown out of the water.

If Rollkur is an exercise, and if Rollkur is only done for a moment - then WHY are we constantly seeing this practice engaged in for minutes on end??? You see - that is one of the justification of the practice - that is NOT done for any length of time.

What you see as Salierno getting better all the time, could also be interpreted that the judges are rewarding a caricature of dressage. It's seen at all levels of the sport - even at Intro and Training for God's sake. Go to a little schooling show and see how the judges penalize riders at training level for their horses not exhibiting the requirements of 2nd level. It's amazing.

I don't know why you two seem so fascinated by Anky - and focused on her as some sort of guru - no one else seems to be - we're all pretty much focusing on the method and its application.

I don't these horses and riders as the epitome of dressage - in fact - I think they are a real detriment to the reputation of the sport, and the FEI too scared - for whatever reason, to simply work out a definition everyone can live with, and that can be implemented and enforced should deviations occur in the warmup/at shows. Just like eventing - the TD will yank a rider so fast it will make your head spin.

That is not unreasonable.




ditto, thank god there is someone out there who sees what I see. sabryant, you and I are obviously going to hell, and taking avg with us!! ;-)

You see the truth is I do not think anky is god/perfect/beyond reproach, I see salinero not tracking up as much as he could in lengthen trot, I see a swinging piaffe at times and I see a sometimes tense horse ready to go sooo much that he doesn't like to be stationary BUT and this is a huge but, his flaws have NOTHING to do with rollkur, in fact, tracking his progress, Anky's training methods have addressed and helped these flaws not crreated them. Salinero is getting BETTER all the time, so if rk is so bad why is this the case? And if I can see EXACTLY the same flaws (often worse examples of) in classically trained horses who have gone nowhere near rk then how can rk and these problems be mutually exclusive? And if they ARE NOT mutually exclusive how can you blame rk for creating these flaws??????????

HOw anyone can blame rk for lack of activity in the hind end AND witness the incredible back end of Krack C in those videos is beyond me.

[sm]

"I don't know why you two seem so fascinated by Anky - and focused on her as some sort of guru - no one else seems to be - we're all pretty much focusing on the method and its application. "

LOL, what can I say: some people don't have to be brainwashed. All they require is a light rinse.

[nero]

Hmmm - I saw the opposite - and tell you what I also saw - I saw folks who insist rollkur is only done for a moment, that it does not involve force, and that it is a stretching exercise - well - they were blown out of the water.

If Rollkur is an exercise, and if Rollkur is only done for a moment - then WHY are we constantly seeing this practice engaged in for minutes on end??? You see - that is one of the justification of the practice - that is NOT done for any length of time.

What you see as Salierno getting better all the time, could also be interpreted that the judges are rewarding a caricature of dressage. It's seen at all levels of the sport - even at Intro and Training for God's sake. Go to a little schooling show and see how the judges penalize riders at training level for their horses not exhibiting the requirements of 2nd level. It's amazing.

I don't know why you two seem so fascinated by Anky - and focused on her as some sort of guru - no one else seems to be - we're all pretty much focusing on the method and its application.

I don't these horses and riders as the epitome of dressage - in fact - I think they are a real detriment to the reputation of the sport, and the FEI too scared - for whatever reason, to simply work out a definition everyone can live with, and that can be implemented and enforced should deviations occur in the warmup/at shows. Just like eventing - the TD will yank a rider so fast it will make your head spin.

That is not unreasonable.
we are discussing anky because she IS the subject of the video, no??? and the most well known and correct of the proponents of rk, why do you have a problem with that. in my mind she rides this method the best so it is natural to use her as an example.

2) salinero has improved out of sight from his athens tests, his walk and halts have improved, his activity in piaffe and passage have improved, his ones and twos are straighter and he sits more in piaffe - all over he is stronger and much more 'whole' than he was three years ago, he has improved, fact. To suggest its just a result of slacker standards from judges is just laughable.

3) no one ever said rk was only used for a moment in time, what was said is THAT THE PICS OF THE RESISTANCES ON THAT WEBSITE are moments in time, BIG difference. RK is used for minutes at at time, but most of the rk I've seen in real life and on those videos show horses swinging, supple and working well, the moments in time showing resistances are the same as resistances shown in classically trained horses.

4) if I seem fascinated by anky its because I've talked with her, watched her ride umpteen times, attended clinics, personally witnessed the remarkable improvements she's made to horses she ridden and taught on the ground, and know first hand what an extraordinary horseperson she is and how much she loves horses. I know this for a fact. What you guys know is based on second hand information based on your limited understanding of her methods and your exposure to a clearly bias website designed by someone you don't even know. Who are you people????? I don't know you, what have you done, how do you ride? How does your horse go? But I do know Anky. I know why, what she does and I've seen first hand her successes with horses in clinics etc.

[OakesBrae]

I know this for a fact. What you guys know is based on second hand information based on your limited understanding of her methods and your exposure to a clearly bias website designed by someone you don't even know

Actually I know based on my extensive background in dressage, the videos which are not clearly biased, but are indeed videos - no matter what's written around them (believe me, I am not influenced by the news media either, only the facts in the case).

I know based on all of the classical texts, which are supposed to be the foundation of dressage. I know based on the horses that I have retrained that have been trained using this method. I know based on watching videos not associated with the sites of performances of both Anky and other riders.

I know based on 20 years of riding hunters. I know based on 5 years of riding eventers. I know based on my dressage cross training for all of those 25 years.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. All our lives we get the "FALSE FRAME" words thrown at us and then we watch a crank and spank and get told that we "just don't get it".

What more can I say? I do not see improvement in Salinero. In fact, I do not see stellar performances. I see trick ponies. I see horses who are compensating for these methods by their natural extravagent movement. I do not see "amazing results" - I see oddness - unclassical - undressage (yes, I coined that).

[Sannois]

we are discussing anky because she IS the subject of the video, no??? and the most well known and correct of the proponents of rk, why do you have a problem with that. in my mind she rides this method the best so it is natural to use her as an example.

2) salinero has improved out of sight from his athens tests, his walk and halts have improved, his activity in piaffe and passage have improved, his ones and twos are straighter and he sits more in piaffe - all over he is stronger and much more 'whole' than he was three years ago, he has improved, fact. To suggest its just a result of slacker standards from judges is just laughable.

3) no one ever said rk was only used for a moment in time, what was said is THAT THE PICS OF THE RESISTANCES ON THAT WEBSITE are moments in time, BIG difference. RK is used for minutes at at time, but most of the rk I've seen in real life and on those videos show horses swinging, supple and working well, the moments in time showing resistances are the same as resistances shown in classically trained horses.

4) if I seem fascinated by anky its because I've talked with her, watched her ride umpteen times, attended clinics, personally witnessed the remarkable improvements she's made to horses she ridden and taught on the ground, and know first hand what an extraordinary horseperson she is and how much she loves horses. I know this for a fact. What you guys know is based on second hand information based on your limited understanding of her methods and your exposure to a clearly bias website designed by someone you don't even know. Who are you people????? I don't know you, what have you done, how do you ride? How does your horse go? But I do know Anky. I know why, what she does and I've seen first hand her successes with horses in clinics etc.
But it still goes against all the principles of Dressage, I dont care what the end results are! or who does it. Why is it all about the medals?? NEver mind, Dont bother answering that! None of my other questions have ever been answered on any of these threads! :no:

[Noir]

HOw anyone can blame rk for lack of activity in the hind end AND witness the incredible back end of Krack C in those videos is beyond me.

Duh? Krack's hind end is croup flat and the hocks jerking up behind his buttocks. He is going very wide in a stiff and tense way. Active, sure. But in the right direction, no.

Theresa

[J Swan]

Ditto.

And I disagree - one of the justifications of Rollkur - outside of the discussion of it on the COTH BB - is that indeed - it is ONLY used for a moment. Regardless of who the rider is, - the position is forced by excessive use of the curb for extended periods of time.

This is, simply, unacceptable. Regardless of who is doing it, who is rewarding it, and who is justifying it.

Considering how much Anky is using the curb on these videos, I shudder to think what she's "teaching" to western riders in Europe.

I think you have a serious case of hero worship. It's touching, but in the end - heroes have a way of letting us down when the lights come up and we see that, like anyone else, they're just trying to make a living. Warts and all.


Actually I know based on my extensive background in dressage, the videos which are not clearly biased, but are indeed videos - no matter what's written around them (believe me, I am not influenced by the news media either, only the facts in the case).

I know based on all of the classical texts, which are supposed to be the foundation of dressage. I know based on the horses that I have retrained that have been trained using this method. I know based on watching videos not associated with the sites of performances of both Anky and other riders.

I know based on 20 years of riding hunters. I know based on 5 years of riding eventers. I know based on my dressage cross training for all of those 25 years.

I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand. All our lives we get the "FALSE FRAME" words thrown at us and then we watch a crank and spank and get told that we "just don't get it".

What more can I say? I do not see improvement in Salinero. In fact, I do not see stellar performances. I see trick ponies. I see horses who are compensating for these methods by their natural extravagent movement. I do not see "amazing results" - I see oddness - unclassical - undressage (yes, I coined that).

[sabryant]

But it still goes against all the principles of Dressage, I dont care what the end results are! or who does it. Why is it all about the medals?? NEver mind, Dont bother answering that! None of my other questions have ever been answered on any of these threads! :no:


what is it about suppling a horse to the nth degree that goes against the principles of dressage. I say it is the opposite and rather is the ultimate of the principles of dressage. The more supple an athlete is (in any sport) the better able they are to perform their sport!

[Daydream Believer]

what is it about suppling a horse to the nth degree that goes against the principles of dressage. I say it is the opposite and rather is the ultimate of the principles of dressage. The more supple an athlete is (in any sport) the better able they are to perform their sport!

I think the problem is that you see suppling and the rest of us see a horse turned into a pretzel. :yes: Not only is the horse obviously being held in this position with some level of force...the curb, the spur, the hand, the position, but it's being done for extended periods of time....not just a few minutes of stretching like you might see more temperate trainers do at the beginning of their rides.

[sabryant]

"I don't know why you two seem so fascinated by Anky - and focused on her as some sort of guru - no one else seems to be - we're all pretty much focusing on the method and its application. "

LOL, what can I say: some people don't have to be brainwashed. All they require is a light rinse.


It has nothing to do with fascination or a guru-ism! It is about the BEAUTY of a completely loose and supple horse who can move across the ground with freedom and great athleticism and is not being stiffled by a human in any way what-so-ever!!

[sabryant]

I think the problem is that you see suppling and the rest of us see a horse turned into a pretzel. :yes: Not only is the horse obviously being held in this position with some level of force...the curb, the spur, the hand, the position, but it's being done for extended periods of time....not just a few minutes of stretching like you might see more temperate trainers do at the beginning of their rides.


If you watch most of these videos closely, you will see that the curb rein is mostly loose. I see no pretzel at all. I see a round, loose back that is free to express itself. I see her leg asking for spurts of energy here and there to wake the horse up/remind him she is up there. I see NO abuse of the spur or reins. I see her suppleing his head, here and there, in conjunction with her leg aid.

[MeredithTX]

One of the videos appeared to me like the horse didn't know quite where to place his back feet. Pretend for a moment that his head was not at his chest and simply examine the movement. Is is fluid? Is it balanced? Is it confident? No. Shouldn't the movement of an upper level dressage horse be all of this and more? I would certainly believe so.

I will not presume to know whether or not Anky is performing RK correctly, or whether or not it is scientifically beneficial or detrimental. But to my classical dressage trained eye, I see movement that is explosive without grace. Does that make sense? If Grand Prix dressage is the pinnacle of lightness, and harmony, and flexibility, and power, then why do I feel like I'm watching a ballerina in a costume that's three sizes too small?

[claire]

:lol:

sybryant, Still not getting this and a couple other things that confuse me.

Read canyonoak's very excellent post AGAIN.
- It would seem that according to her Salinero was/is a very difficult and talented horse and that this RK/Hyperflexion method is the only way she could get a world cup performance out of this rank horse no one wanted?

BUT, why does this method or suppling exercise(as you call it?) have to be used before EVERY performance?

WHY, does RK/Hyperflexion seem to have to be used not only with Salinero, but also Idool and KrackC and by numerous other riders on other horses?

Also, maybe Oaksbrea could explain from a Hunter trainers viewpoint :D
(maybe I could better understand)

In video #5 (KrackC) I am sorry, but that horse seems to be very unbalanced leaning thru the corners.
I understand getting a horse on the aids in a warm up...but :confused: to have a GP horse that OFF the aids before a performance????

Something just isn't making any sense here. AND in numerous other videos/tapes/live performances by Anky and other riders.

sybryant and nero, please don't take this as being rude...I am truly trying to understand.

[Ghazzu]

It has nothing to do with fascination or a guru-ism! It is about the BEAUTY of a completely loose and supple horse who can move across the ground with freedom and great athleticism and is not being stiffled by a human in any way what-so-ever!!

Truly, beauty, is, as the saying goes, in the eye of the beholder.
You find it beautiful, others see an abomination.

Chacun a son gout.

[J Swan]

Truly, beauty, is, as the saying goes, in the eye of the beholder.
You find it beautiful, others see an abomination.

Chacun a son gout.


I think sabryant and I are watching different videos. That's the only logical explanation.

yup - abomination.

And I still never got my questions answered. Darn.

[claire]

ideayoda posted a very good response to canyonoak's post on the other RK thread. Answered some of my questions and/or phrased my questions better. :)

[J Swan]

It has nothing to do with fascination or a guru-ism! It is about the BEAUTY of a completely loose and supple horse who can move across the ground with freedom and great athleticism and is not being stiffled by a human in any way what-so-ever!!

Not stifled by a human in any way? Waterskiing on the curb isn't stifling? I do not see completely loose and supple horses moving with freedom and athleticism I see a new reality show called "Crank and Spank Extreme"

We HAVE to be watching different videos. double check your link.

And as MeredithTX said - it's like watching a ballerina in a costume 3 sizes too small. Exactly.

[kmp2707]

I am not getting involved here, but I thought this video was great!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XRk6d4MKPk&mode=suggested&search=rollkur

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Kyzteke]

I sent them to my S judge trainer and she was sickened. She again has said, the Judges are partially to blame, They know whats going on they are rewarding the results.

Sannois, this is not directed at you, but "DUH!!"

I can't believe the dressage community is just now deciding that the results Anky & other riders using these training methods are not "real" dressage!

The judges need to be hung from the yardarms (if you can find a yardarm near a dressage ring) for continually thinking this is "dressage" or even good riding. I was puzzled and aghast when Anky won the Volvo Cup back when it was held in Los Angeles (what was that? 8-some years ago?), and I didn't know her (or dressage) from a dog's butt. No one was talking about RK, or anything else back then, or if they were, it was in whispers. There was no "vendetta" -- and, as I said, I considered myself a total dressage ignoramus. But I knew horses, and I had eyes, and I could see. And all the stuff that I thought dressage was (like lightness and partnership and expression and elegance) was mostly missing from her ride.

In the end, I just couldn't believe this person had won the competition because her horse looked stiff, unhappy and totally without grace.

Rather than pilloring the poor woman NOW, after a decade+ of rewarding her, the dressage community needs to start doing a serious shake down of the judging and judges.

The end result of her training methods have been winning everything in sight for all this time, so of course other riders are going to start imitating it. But if they hadn't been winning, this kind of crap would have been shut down immediately, and RK would have never been an issue.

So again, I need to ask: what the heck have the judges been seeing all these years that they thought was so fantastic? Nothing has changed in Anky & her clones' training methods nor has the final results changed.

How come so few people were "aghast" then, but now it's ok to be so righteously indignant?

And I feel really sorry for Anky -- all this time she has been rewarded at the highest level. Then, suddenly -- BOOM! Ohmygawd -- LOOK WHAT THAT CRUEL WOMAN IS DOING !!!(cut to faces showing shock & outrage). Well, s**t, people -- she's been doing it for years! You guys loved it 10 years ago -- why don't you love it now?

A clue -- the emperor was naked a L-O-N-G time ago and it's kind of sad it has taken this long for everyone to see.

OK -- I'm going to go away now and prepare for the stoning....

[Kareen]

V. well said Judi.

[J Swan]

Well, s**t, people -- she's been doing it for years! You guys loved it 10 years ago -- why don't you love it now?

A clue -- the emperor was naked a L-O-N-G time ago and it's kind of sad it has taken this long for everyone to see.

OK -- I'm going to go away now and prepare for the stoning....

I can only speak for myself - but I NEVER loved it and when the subject was brought up - would say exactly what I've been saying this time around.

All I want done is the FEI to act like it has balls and set some definitive parameters - and then stick with it.

[fiona]

Kyzteke - beautifully put!

[Ghazzu]

All I want done is the FEI to act like it has balls and set some definitive parameters - and then stick with it.

Balls--no, you're confusing them with the polo association.

[slc2]

the curb bit can only go back because the chain is left very loose. that requires no pulling at all, the bit is that loose in the mouth.

[Sannois]

Sannois, this is not directed at you, but "DUH!!"

I can't believe the dressage community is just now deciding that the results Anky & other riders using these training methods are not "real" dressage!

The judges need to be hung from the yardarms (if you can find a yardarm near a dressage ring) for continually thinking this is "dressage" or even good riding. I was puzzled and aghast when Anky won the Volvo Cup back when it was held in Los Angeles (what was that? 8-some years ago?), and I didn't know her (or dressage) from a dog's butt. No one was talking about RK, or anything else back then, or if they were, it was in whispers. There was no "vendetta" -- and, as I said, I considered myself a total dressage ignoramus. But I knew horses, and I had eyes, and I could see. And all the stuff that I thought dressage was (like lightness and partnership and expression and elegance) was mostly missing from her ride.

In the end, I just couldn't believe this person had won the competition because her horse looked stiff, unhappy and totally without grace.

Rather than pilloring the poor woman NOW, after a decade+ of rewarding her, the dressage community needs to start doing a serious shake down of the judging and judges.

The end result of her training methods have been winning everything in sight for all this time, so of course other riders are going to start imitating it. But if they hadn't been winning, this kind of crap would have been shut down immediately, and RK would have never been an issue.

So again, I need to ask: what the heck have the judges been seeing all these years that they thought was so fantastic? Nothing has changed in Anky & her clones' training methods nor has the final results changed.

How come so few people were "aghast" then, but now it's ok to be so righteously indignant?

And I feel really sorry for Anky -- all this time she has been rewarded at the highest level. Then, suddenly -- BOOM! Ohmygawd -- LOOK WHAT THAT CRUEL WOMAN IS DOING !!!(cut to faces showing shock & outrage). Well, s**t, people -- she's been doing it for years! You guys loved it 10 years ago -- why don't you love it now?

A clue -- the emperor was naked a L-O-N-G time ago and it's kind of sad it has taken this long for everyone to see.

OK -- I'm going to go away now and prepare for the stoning....
I gues its too little too late! :(

[OakesBrae]

A clue -- the emperor was naked a L-O-N-G time ago and it's kind of sad it has taken this long for everyone to see.


I don't feel sorry for Anky - because if you have to compromise your ethics to win ribbons, then you didn't have any to begin with.

However, that being said - I didn't know about rollkur 10 years ago. I didn't watch the warmup rounds of Anky. I can only react when I know about it. 10 years ago I was quite busy having children and riding my own d*mn horses.

There were people that once found out, started speaking out about it. But like anything else - it takes a long darn time to get a grassroots movement started. Look how long it took to get information out there about AIDS, about slavery, about anything else...*laughing* It's rediculous to think that we'd all be able to move that quickly - it takes a long freaking time.

[Noir]

the curb bit can only go back because the chain is left very loose. that requires no pulling at all, the bit is that loose in the mouth.

Nah, the tongue is soft tissue. If pulled on hard enough the perfectly well-fitted curb and chain will compress the tongue until the shanks are pointing in the direction of the pull. One can even pull so hard it damages the tongue and bars, leaving dips/cuts.

Theresa

[paintjumper]

The poor horse was constantly spooking and scooting because with his head in that position--he could not see where he was going. He should have bucked her @$$ off!!! That is what she deserves.

[Sannois]

The poor horse was constantly spooking and scooting because with his head in that position--he could not see where he was going. He should have bucked her @$$ off!!! That is what she deserves.
They cant see like that! :eek: :mad: :no:

[OakesBrae]

Nope, all they can see are their own knees. :(

[Dispatcher]

My thoughts exactly--the horse cannot see and is just trusting the rider and trying to please. He looks VERY uncomfortable. And just HOW does she get him to do that--pulling on his mouth and squeezing him on?

[professor]

maybe the producer of the videos is anky's biggest fan and loves to tape her riding. it only becomes a "problem" or a "vendetta" if what you see is something that you *personally interpret* as anky doing awful or ugly.

if i showed my SO, who knows nothing about riding, "look babe, a video of anky warming up her horse." he would say, "that's nice." he wouldn't say, "why would somebody post such a video?? they must have a problem with anky! how mean of that videographer!!"

Correction: it was Anky's biggest fan, but couldn't take NO for an answer when she asked Anky to support her new publications.

[J Swan]

Correction: it was Anky's biggest fan, but couldn't take NO for an answer when she asked Anky to support her new publications.

Prove it.

With 3rd party objective written documentation that can be verified by any other poster on this BB. I'm sure, since you are "in the know" of the parties dispute - that you won't mind sharing all the facts with us.

Actually, it sounds like a good story - although I'm afraid I don't see the relevance to this discussion - since this method and dispute was simmering before Anky became fashionable.

[claire]

Correction: it was Anky's biggest fan, but couldn't take NO for an answer when she asked Anky to support her new publications.

I am sorry professor; are you trying to say the videos/photos are published by someone who has a vendetta against AvG?

So, you then feel the videos/photos of this warm-up show RK/LDR in a less than favorable light?

sybryant says that the videos/photos show [quote] "a completely loose and supple horse who can move across the ground with freedom and great athleticism"
NOT what I would think the stuff a person with a vendetta would want to publish?

OR are you saying that these videos/photos have been tampered with and changed?
Because if so, I would think it would be justification for a pretty big law suit.

See, I have been sincerely trying to understand. But there is just so much that does not make any sense.

I read the article that Coreene posted and Sjef describes his RK/LDR system one way...yet there are videos and photos and first hand eyewitnesses (other than the vendetta person ;) ) who describe the RK/LDR system as what was in these photos/videos????

:confused:

[Sannois]

I am sorry professor; are you trying to say the videos/photos are published by someone who has a vendetta against AvG?

So, you then feel the videos/photos of this warm-up show RK/LDR in a less than favorable light?

sybryant says that the videos/photos show [quote] "a completely loose and supple horse who can move across the ground with freedom and great athleticism"
NOT what I would think the stuff a person with a vendetta would want to publish?

OR are you saying that these videos/photos have been tampered with and changed?
Because if so, I would think it would be justification for a pretty big law suit.

See, I have been sincerely trying to understand. But there is just so much that does not make any sense.

I read the article that Coreene posted and Sjef describes his RK/LDR system one way...yet there are videos and photos and first hand eyewitnesses (other than the vendetta person ;) ) who describe the RK/LDR system as what was in these photos/videos????

:confused:
That horse is struggling to comply, he stumbles or hops behind, Jumps forward, Looks extremly unhappy, and gaits are stilted behind. There is just no way I would consider that a picture of an athletic horse, Well maybe he is because he is making a hell of an effort blind with his chin to his chest! :eek:

[claire]

Sannois, I didn't mean I agreed with sybryant. I keep asking if what I saw in those videos wasn't a very unbalanced horse/and what the purpose of such a warm up was/and if that was "GOOD" RK as it was being done by the world-class RK specialist.
But, I am an uneducated beginner ;) so...

I am just not getting this back and forth: either those videos are representing a pretty awful ride (and so the vendetta thing could make sense) but then the RK/LDR method leaves alot to be desired...
OR as a couple pros here post: the videos show a lovely athletic warm-up ride (in which case how does the vendetta scenerio work?)

Which IS it????

[physical.energy]

It's a video for freaksake. What you see is what you see. Without the titles and comments one should still be able to establish an opinion as to whether they are attracted to this type of riding or not. One person sees freedom of gaits, relaxation, regularity and truly classical training with a happy horse. Others see it for abuse and the crank and spank and a horse forced into a frame and stuck in his lot in life unable to break free and use his body to it's full potential. Now how those two opposite and opposing opinions can be established from the exact same video is what amazes me. Kinda reminds me of how republicans and democrats see the war in iraq :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D
If we saw this type of riding in some warm up arena in a small show in amerika we would be aghast at the entire picture.

I'm still going to the bar at the World Cup for a bevy! Anybody with me?

[Sebastian]

I'm still going to the bar at the World Cup for a bevy! Anybody with me?

Heck, yeah... I'll wear my "No Reinstatement for Horse Killers" Hat.
Seb ;)

[Sannois]

Sannois, I didn't mean I agreed with sybryant. I keep asking if what I saw in those videos wasn't a very unbalanced horse/and what the purpose of such a warm up was/and if that was "GOOD" RK as it was being done by the world-class RK specialist.
But, I am an uneducated beginner ;) so...

I am just not getting this back and forth: either those videos are representing a pretty awful ride (and so the vendetta thing could make sense) but then the RK/LDR method leaves alot to be desired...
OR as a couple pros here post: the videos show a lovely athletic warm-up ride (in which case how does the vendetta scenerio work?)

Which IS it????
After I wrote that I thought dang that doesnt make sense Kim...
I was actually agreeing with you, I see what you are seeing, I really dont get the skipping and hopping behind, someone said he is startled by other horses coming by as his field of vision is obscured, others said it is jumping forward in copliance with the spur, But I dont see a relaxed supple athletic horse, Certainly a very trusting soul. :(

[sabryant]

First of all, let me say that I don't use RK. I don't know that I ever would use it. Second, the scooting and hopping behind is from Anky giving him a sharp aid with her leg...wake up and get to the bridle. It is a timing issue, it should never be a hanging, pulling or pushing constant issue, rather a timing issue. It looks to me like her timing is excellent and I do not see force or abuse used by Anky in these videos. If any of you have the video tape WARM UP AT AACHEN 1994, please re-view it or rent it if you do not have it. It is the same riding technique with different riders and different horses, though there is a short section with Anky on Bonfire. I just think it is strange that Anky is getting all of this negative press after some German Magazine posted how RK was sooooo abusive just about exactly the time Anky took over the limelight.

[sabryant]

Keep in mind that one of Germany and Holland's biggest industries is the horse industry! I sometimes wonder if we are not being used as pawns because the USofA is their best/most-money-spending client. And, unfortunately, we might not always buy where the best training is happening, but where the horses are winning.

[OakesBrae]

Uhhhh sabryant, did you change some of your posts in the other thread? Because now it looks like you ride your horses f/d/o, which I believe no one here has a problem with (at least not that I know of).

(Or do I just need more coffee this morning?)

[Sannois]

First of all, let me say that I don't use RK. I don't know that I ever would use it. Second, the scooting and hopping behind is from Anky giving him a sharp aid with her leg...wake up and get to the bridle. It is a timing issue, it should never be a hanging, pulling or pushing constant issue, rather a timing issue. It looks to me like her timing is excellent and I do not see force or abuse used by Anky in these videos. If any of you have the video tape WARM UP AT AACHEN 1994, please re-view it or rent it if you do not have it. It is the same riding technique with different riders and different horses, though there is a short section with Anky on Bonfire. I just think it is strange that Anky is getting all of this negative press after some German Magazine posted how RK was sooooo abusive just about exactly the time Anky took over the limelight.
Your kidding right??? GET UP IN THE BRIDLE??? Where the hell else is he supposed to go?? His bottom lip is against his breastbone!
I must say you are quite good at sugar coating it. :mad:

[Coup De Des]

never mind. I'm a dork.

[Noir]

I'm also a bit saddened by the fact that the discussion has come to revolve around a few riders from one country in Europe. It may be more common there than anywhere else, and they may have a more thought-out strategy than most other users of rollkur, but they are not the only ones who use it. They seem to be almost the only ones who admit to using it, though. And my hat is off to them for that.

I don't think most people who discuss on BB like this one has actually stood and watched how they warm up. Someone said the on-lookers have their arms crossed in front of their chests, and interpret that as some kind of disproval, but I would say hardly. This is the big national competition. Most people there know that this is what it looks like when the riders think they are out of sight of unfriendly media. My guess is that the audience fully accept this type of training and see it as an everyday thing.

I would call this Degree 2. This is what they do when preparing for an important competition, so they give it their best, knowing people will see it.
Degree 1 is what they show on commercial tapes and in clinics, and also what they describe in articles and lectures.
Degree 3 is what we never see. What happens at home when there's no students or grooms around.

I think these degrees go for ALL professional horsepeople, in that they take care to show certain things in certain settings, and some training "tools" are best kept at home. Everyone has a rep ro protect.

At least I think they are being relatively honest. Here in Sweden, you can see similar things at closed warm-ups, if you for some reason are allowed in. But do the riders come out and speak about how they train? No. We have the formidable drawreins in the curb bit combined with a long whip in each hand. Does anyone speak about it? No. Dang, I whish I could get into the arena and photograph that some day.

I have tried to get any kind of information from the vast number of German riders who also ride this way (rollkur), some type of article or report on their training sessions. But no. The only ones are from Uphoff and Thiess and they are age old. Those Germans who do it, keep quiet about it. Maybe because of the Reitlehre, which all elderly coaches and trainers referr to. Because rollkur goes against THE RULES and that's a bad thing, breaking the rules. I get a feeling in Holland they don't have the Reitlehre, and feel that rules as such are meant to be broken if they limit personal freedom. I can see that point of view, too. It's like the Danes, who shake their heads at us Swedes and complain that everything is forbidden in Sweden. There's some truth to it.

I would like to see some prominent German/Swedish/Danish/Australian and US riders who use this method or similar methods, come out and say so, and explain how they think it works. I bet they haven't thought it through half as much as the Dutch.

Theresa

[Tonja]

sabryant wrote:
Keep in mind that one of Germany and Holland's biggest industries is the horse industry! I sometimes wonder if we are not being used as pawns because the USofA is their best/most-money-spending client. And, unfortunately, we might not always buy where the best training is happening, but where the horses are winning.

That’s the way it looks to me too. :yes:

[J Swan]

I just think it is strange that Anky is getting all of this negative press after some German Magazine posted how RK was sooooo abusive just about exactly the time Anky took over the limelight.

She's just high profile - they make good targets. Same for any celebrity, or professional athlete - they're all targets.

It's some sort of rule of yellow journalism or something - the media grabs something and just goes with it.

It could be Anky or Michael Jackson. Doesn't matter.

[Noir]

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EB0C1EF3C16588DB

Noir

[MeredithTX]

If the purpose of RK is to achieve the ultimate level of suppleness and engagement, someone please explain to me why in video 6, the rider is bringing her horse's nose to his chest at a standstill. I'm sorry, I just can't figure that one out, particularly when I can see her right hand very firmly pulling his head.

[J Swan]

MeredithTX - you know - I gave up trying to understand the people on this BB explaining this method to me, because their words don't jibe with the end result.

Perhaps you'll have better luck.

[SGray]

many of the riders seem to have thrown out the bottom of the 'training pyramid' as their horses no longer show rhythm/regularity/relaxation - but perhaps they can substitute additional contact?

[Sannois]

If the purpose of RK is to achieve the ultimate level of suppleness and engagement, someone please explain to me why in video 6, the rider is bringing her horse's nose to his chest at a standstill. I'm sorry, I just can't figure that one out, particularly when I can see her right hand very firmly pulling his head.
I just watched 6 and after that halt she also goes back to trot, then after the long side, she has he right hand back by her waist! ??? :eek:

[sm]

yup Sannois, it kinda goes back to what J Swan just wrote: "you know - I gave up trying to understand the people on this BB explaining this method to me, because their words don't jibe with the end result."

Have a great weekend everyone...

[Sannois]

yup Sannois, it kinda goes back to what J Swan just wrote: "you know - I gave up trying to understand the people on this BB explaining this method to me, because their words don't jibe with the end result."

Have a great weekend everyone...
I think that is truly the case! Have a lovely weekend! Happy Rollkuring!
I am going to ride my boy the same old tired way, and funny thing, he will get round and thru . :yes:

[J Swan]

I think that is truly the case! Have a lovely weekend! Happy Rollkuring!
I am going to ride my boy the same old tired way, and funny thing, he will get round and thru . :yes:

I'm pea green with envy - I'm sidelined. Have good rides this weekend everyone!

[egontoast]

TOODLES!

[professor]

yup Sannois, it kinda goes back to what J Swan just wrote: "you know - I gave up trying to understand the people on this BB explaining this method to me, because their words don't jibe with the end result."
I think that is truly the case! Have a lovely weekend! Happy Rollkuring!
I am going to ride my boy the same old tired way, and funny thing, he will get round and thru . :yes:

S. Janssen explained it already hundred times, but you have to leave your computer and come to the GDF.

Let wait and see how many healthy and happy horses from America are coming to the WEG.

[J Swan]

Ahhhh - ze stupid Amerikan defense again.

Boring.

Tell you what - why not just stop wasting time mit ze stoopid Amerikans - we're no longer interested in slapping at the annoying jabs.

S. Janssen explained it already hundred times, but you have to leave your computer and come to the GDF.

Let wait and see how many healthy and happy horses from America are coming to the WEG.

[Mardi]

if you hadn't said it was Anky, I NEVER would have thought she could look so awful on a horse. My God.

No wonder Klaus wants the warm-up to be judged.

[sabryant]

Uhhhh sabryant, did you change some of your posts in the other thread? Because now it looks like you ride your horses f/d/o, which I believe no one here has a problem with (at least not that I know of).

(Or do I just need more coffee this morning?)


Oakesbrae, I guess you will have to go back and read through this whole thread. I was trying to give an explanation for why RK could be a tool used by some riders. I believe that I stated, early on, that I didn't use RK.

It became too difficult to continue in the other thread with all of the mis-quotes by so many people that it just is not worth the time. As Nero said, there was a mighty good explanation early on by Canyonoak. Much better than mine as I am not the greatest at expressing myself especially in between all of the ugly posts I got in response!

[Sannois]

going on under the spotlight there Sab! So whos the Picture of ???

[Pommederue]

Wow, thanks for posting those. Very educational. Nero, let's go ride. :winkgrin:

[sabryant]

Thanks for asking Sannois. That is Fandango II, a Holsteiner mare I trained from breaking up to GP. We were the freestye entertainment Friday and Saturday night for the Roanoke Valley Horse Show in Virginia. The Roanoke Valley Symphony Orchestra is off the the right of us in that photo. It was a great time!!!

[LivviesMom]

ok...so before I say anything I would like to state that I am primarily a hunter jumper but do dressage for the benefit of my horses... "flat work makes the dream work"..ok here goes

I ride with a german coach who is very old school in his ways..right back to klimke.
He NEVER rides his horses like that and I'm sure if he caught me on one of his horses even a cm behind the vertical he would haul me off and shoot me. In some of the videos the horses looked tense.in others they didnt really...
But there is a woman at my barn who rides using rk the entire ride and I can tell you her horses are NOT HAPPY. They are constantly ringing their tails and the ears are all over,,my coach once tole me one ear should constantly be flicking back during you "conversation" these two poor souls just look angry. The 4 beat in their canter and she also does the crank and spank..she is contstantly in a battle with them..the minute the disobey they get smacked repeatedly with the carriage driving whip she carries...shes even smacked my poor pony in the face while I was riding one day...but thats another story. This is a method I would never choose to use myself. I think it is just very unnatural to me ..My theory is if I wouldnt really see it in the wild..I shouldnt do it..and I know what your going to say...horses dont run around in a frame..true but I'm not talking about constantly, I just mean when you see them moving forward they would occasionally choose that position themselves... but my coaches horses are the most supple obedient and soft horses I have ever ridden. he noramlly shows jumpers but his jumper rounds I swear, look like hunter rounds..his horses dont fight AT ALL... the dont root for the reins and thrown their heads up and run off...they Listen to him because they respect him... you shold hear them when he walks in the barn..his one mare actually pines and gets upset when hes away...
I see very different opinions on this training every day.. but would I accept training advice from the woman?? defiantely not..she actually calls me crazy for showing my yearling on the line...

[Sannois]

Thanks for asking Sannois. That is Fandango II, a Holsteiner mare I trained from breaking up to GP. We were the freestye entertainment Friday and Saturday night for the Roanoke Valley Horse Show in Virginia. The Roanoke Valley Symphony Orchestra is off the the right of us in that photo. It was a great time!!!
My retired Eventers name is Fandango! He never quite lived up to that name for Dressage however, Lovely mare! :)

[sabryant]

Thanks Sannois! She was bought as a yearling for an event prospect but I intercepted her just after being weaned from her foal when she was four. She was a beautiful soul!!! Sorry your Fandango didn't pan out. It is very frustrating!

[nero]

Oh, after watching the additional videos of Gribaldi it makes me want to sit on him, so round and supple and powerful, those videos make him look beautiful, he is listening to the leg so well and looks very clam to my mind. He is floating around the arena

[Tonja]

"Lifting the forehand is a consequence of the lowering of the hindquarters produced by their greater engagement. It is an indication and a consequence of collection. In a correctly collected horse the croup and buttock muscles of the engaged hindquarters exert a powerful tug downwards and backwards upon the muscles of the back connected to them, thus lifting the chest and neck vertebrae of the spine and taking some of the load off the forehand. The more the neck is stretched forwards and upwards, the easier contact with the bit becomes. As the absolute length of the neck remains the same and the elongation of its upper edge becomes even greater (see pp. 262-3), the neck must rise if the horse's nose is held vertical, so that the distance from mouth to hand and hence the length of the reins becomes shorter. The steps of the front legs become loftier, corresponding to the reduction of the load on the forehand." (From Horsemanship by Waldemar Seunig)

What Waldemar Seunig described in the above paragraph is not what I am seeing in horses that have been trained in zwangsjacke. Instead it looks to me like the horses are using their heads and necks as levers to elevate the haunches, often giving the horses an appearance of tippy-toeing behind. Even on the occasions where the haunches are somewhat bent, they don’t appear to be carrying a significant amount of weight.

[staceyk]

Hi,

I am glad to see these videos, as it gives me an understanding of the technique and people's reaction to it. Having said that...

These are horses that have talent and are worth many dollars, and are treated like movie stars the other 23 hours of their day. No practice that harms them physically in a lasting/permanent way is likely to be used for long. While perhaps repugnant, this technique does not result in bruising, bloodletting, swelling, starvation, blindness, lameness, etc. These riders don't seem very concerned about classical principles but they seem to win. I wonder about how the dressage world ought to react to these methods -- clearly the results are being rewarded. This a question of philosophy and quality of work achieved, departure from classical principles, and what the dressage world wants to reward. I would certainly advocate for education and to discourage young people from emulating these highly accomplished and experienced riders. But on the continuum of cruelty, where does it lie?

For those of you who object on the basis that it is cruel? It is certainly unkind and not classical. But is there tissue damage? Does it instill fear, break the spirit, harm the horse physically or mentally in a permanent way?

Compare rollkur with plain old starvation, which is happening in our home towns right now, no doubt, to many poor animals. With my limited time i think I would campaign to help animals that are being starved and mistreated in ways that cause permanent damage or death.

[Karoline]

Is that the top 10 are allowed to use a method that "has the potential for being harmful in the hands of amateur riders and should only be used by a handful of qualified riders in the world".

This method is not part of the FEI guidelines as they have stood since FEI was founded.

Basically, we are saying that the best in the sport do not have to follow the rules of the sport.

The beauty of dressage, at whatever level it is practised is that it can be used on any horse by any rider provided they have access to correct instruction. The principles were the same, wether you ride an appaloosa, a mule, or an Olympic champion. Now, they are not.

How is that good for dressage?



I am not talking about riding very deep and round but riding hyperflexion.

[Carol Ames]

I am wondering ,is there any way an observer /, judge could know that the horses are trained wih roll kur? Is salineros' highih score the result of, or in spite of rollkur?:eek:

[Carol Ames]

I wonder if HilaryClayton could finda way show the additional stress, especially on the frontlegs resulting from rk?

[SGray]

I wonder if HilaryClayton could finda way show the additional stress, especially on the frontlegs resulting from rk?

ahhh - but an RKer could just reply 'less stress on hind end' since the horses are not taking the weight behind :rolleyes:

[Noir]

I am wondering ,is there any way an observer /, judge could know that the horses are trained wih roll kur?

I personally don't believe there is. There are so many whacky ways in which one can ride and train a horse, that cause about the same flaws and errors. But I'll give you this, it takes real skill to get a smooth ride, so most of the other styles aren't up there at the top fighting.

We have a trainer here in Sweden that brings up GP horses that basically all have the same 'problem'. I can see this problem in some horses ridden in rollkur, and yet in other horses ridden in rollkur I don't see them. He doesn't ride rollkur, just with and exterme amount of force, both hands, legs and whip. Compressed horses is the result, and he's not doing well at GP, and eventually sells them (5th going now...)

But I see a common phenomenon in most horses trained in rollkur and competed at the highest levels (because it's those we all see) and that's the fact that they don't collect. They either splay out like Bonfire/Rembrandt or piedestall/goat on a mountain like Salinero/Gigolo. Both Sal and Bonnie also balancée from side to side, whic is another way to avoid collection. There is the same amount of collection/non-collection before the piaffe, in the piaffe and after, and the transitions are rather smooth. Very, very clever.

But to be able to tell this from a horse that has been trained in some other way, I don't believe it's possible. Many horses are trained to avoid collection.

Theresa

[Sannois]

Your tagline is ausgezeichnet!:D

[Karoline]

Every superlative you can think of !

http://www.dict.cc/?s=ausgezeichnet

[Sannois]

I asked my husband to translate her sig line, I thought it was fitting to the ongoing Classical/ Rollkur Competition.. he told me the word to write for Excellent! :)

[Noir]

Unfortunately I can't remember where I got it from. Some dressage guy, but who? I think it says a lot, though.

Theresa

[Sannois]

Unfortunately I can't remember where I got it from. Some dressage guy, but who? I think it says a lot, though.

Theresa
Does say alot Theresa!! I dont know Why I never asked hubby to read it before. One thing hes good for! :lol: Just kidding! :)

[siegi b.]

The ironic thing is that one could say that Noir is doing exactly the opposite of what her sig line says - she insists on keeping the old ashes instead of passing on the new fire.

[Sannois]

seem to take great pleasure in being rude to me, I wanted to comment Lovely Shepherds!
I used to do Ringsport and Schutzhund with my East German gal!

[Thomas_1]

I have taught classical riding and classical dressage for over 30 years and whilst many labour under the illusion that this technique is something to do with dressage, in my professional view rollkur is riding at its worst.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever! Those who seek to explain the videos are merely making excuses for disgusting riding and horsemanship - whether its a caputured moment in time or for excessive periods.

This forced and incorrect way of riding will impair the horse's movement and athletic ability and can do much damage both physically and mentally. Practised over a period of time, it generally leads to unsoundness and back pain for the horse.

It places immeasurable strain on joints, muscles and ligaments. A rigid insistence on fixing/forcing a false outline from an early age, plays havoc with the horse's back and central nervous system.

Too often this sort of work results in quantities of confused, damaged and stressed horses, those that become hysterical and dangerous, being quickly sidelined. It's the few brave survivors, who by their stoicism do the greatest damage to their fellows, for it is they who unwittingly have to fly the flag for the latest fad and fashion. "You see my trainer's method really works!" boasts the winning owner, blithely ignoring the consequences on their horse and all the associated problems that go with it.

I'm sick to death of reading about rollkur and how its a fantastic dressage method applied by brilliant winning riders and so must be correct and I'm sick to death of reading why dressage horses can't go out in fields in herds and why they are unpredictable and bad mannered because they are a high level competition horse.

Its bad for horses, its bad for dressage and its time it was outed and its time that there were some half decent judges knocking such appalling riding down to the level it belongs!

And as a post script I've got to say that if Anky van Grunsven ever got on a horse of mine and rode like that I'd drag her off aside from the hyperflexion - her use of hands and curb are appalling and her use of stirrups is horrific - clearly she has a horse that must be so troubled that it has switched off totally to what I can only descirbe as horrendous abuse and chronic torture. I would like to think that if I didn't drag her off a horse of mine quick enough, that it would quickly dump her!

[Petalstorm]

Wow, what an eye opener.
It's very sad.
Makes me feel really bad for the horses.
What must they be thinking?

[Noir]

The ironic thing is that one could say that Noir is doing exactly the opposite of what her sig line says - she insists on keeping the old ashes instead of passing on the new fire.

Or maybe I insist on passing on the fire instead of perverting it? I'm in no doubt you will say anything that is the exact opposite to what I say. But it's a free world.

T

[Daydream Believer]

Thomas 1... If I come to visit Scotland again which is very possible, I will have to look you up and buy you a drink. You sound like someone I'd very much enjoy meeting.

[Thomas_1]

Thomas 1... If I come to visit Scotland again which is very possible, I will have to look you up and buy you a drink. You sound like someone I'd very much enjoy meeting.

I never look a gift horse in the mouth and I never refuse the offer of a drink ;)

[J Swan]

Amen, Thomas_1 Right on.

I'll buy you a drink too. Several.

Now I'll go back to lurking - lest les femmes formidables enter into the fray and start the "provincial American" doo doo again.

I have taught classical riding and classical dressage for over 30 years and whilst many labour under the illusion that this technique is something to do with dressage, in my professional view rollkur is riding at its worst.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever! Those who seek to explain the videos are merely making excuses for disgusting riding and horsemanship - whether its a caputured moment in time or for excessive periods.

This forced and incorrect way of riding will impair the horse's movement and athletic ability and can do much damage both physically and mentally. Practised over a period of time, it generally leads to unsoundness and back pain for the horse.

It places immeasurable strain on joints, muscles and ligaments. A rigid insistence on fixing/forcing a false outline from an early age, plays havoc with the horse's back and central nervous system.

Too often this sort of work results in quantities of confused, damaged and stressed horses, those that become hysterical and dangerous, being quickly sidelined. It's the few brave survivors, who by their stoicism do the greatest damage to their fellows, for it is they who unwittingly have to fly the flag for the latest fad and fashion. "You see my trainer's method really works!" boasts the winning owner, blithely ignoring the consequences on their horse and all the associated problems that go with it.

I'm sick to death of reading about rollkur and how its a fantastic dressage method applied by brilliant winning riders and so must be correct and I'm sick to death of reading why dressage horses can't go out in fields in herds and why they are unpredictable and bad mannered because they are a high level competition horse.

Its bad for horses, its bad for dressage and its time it was outed and its time that there were some half decent judges knocking such appalling riding down to the level it belongs!

And as a post script I've got to say that if Anky van Grunsven ever got on a horse of mine and rode like that I'd drag her off aside from the hyperflexion - her use of hands and curb are appalling and her use of stirrups is horrific - clearly she has a horse that must be so troubled that it has switched off totally to what I can only descirbe as horrendous abuse and chronic torture. I would like to think that if I didn't drag her off a horse of mine quick enough, that it would quickly dump her!

[siegi b.]

Sannois - I don't believe I'm being rude (unless having a different opinion means doing just that), and I certainly wouldn't get any pleasure out of it. I do get tired of Swedish pot stirrers who delight in getting folks all hot under the collar and mad at each other. I don't know why this Swede gets away with pronouncing herself expert on all matters dressage and frankly don't see how she qualifies. This has nothing to do with RK and everything with the control freak nature of said Scandinavian. I'm sorry to see folks playing along with it...

As far as the Shepherds are concerned, they're my pride and joy! I was a member of the German Sherpherd Club (Deutscher Schaeferhundverein) and have taken a dog to Schutzhund II. That was a long time ago and nowadays I'm content to just put basic training on my pups because they're basically farm dogs and loving it. If you're anywhere near Waterford and need a Shepherd/foal fix' by all means come out and visit. We're easy to find....

[Tonja]

Originally Posted by siegi b.
The ironic thing is that one could say that Noir is doing exactly the opposite of what her sig line says - she insists on keeping the old ashes instead of passing on the new fire.

The Traditional flame burns from enduring substance that has withstood the test of time and can persist on into a long, bright future. There is no point of passing on a “new fire” with so little to substance to sustain it that it will only end in ashes.

[Nikki^]

My non-horsey friend watched these videos with me and he was wondering why the horse just takes this abuse and not buck off the rider? In some of the videos, you can see the horse clearly trying to escape the pressure but why doesn't the horse just throw the rider off?

[sm]

"My non-horsey friend watched these videos with me and he was wondering why the horse just takes this abuse and not buck off the rider? In some of the videos, you can see the horse clearly trying to escape the pressure but why doesn't the horse just throw the rider off?"

Can't -- getting spurred from behind. Not allowed any room at all to drop head (need to drop head to buck). Horse is just compressed together.

[doccer]

My non-horsey friend watched these videos with me and he was wondering why the horse just takes this abuse and not buck off the rider? In some of the videos, you can see the horse clearly trying to escape the pressure but why doesn't the horse just throw the rider off?

Because they are so broke and good-natured creatures :yes: all they want to do is please. And if pleasing means contorted painful positions......

Then again, because the horse is broke of spirit, maybe that's why the rider 'believes' :rolleyes: they need rollkur to get some spirited movement..... *gag*

[Thomas_1]

Regrettably they are so stoic that their spirit is broken and they totally switch off to what is in my mind just appalling abuse of a horse. And I am NOT some sort of namby pamby owner - I'm an old fashioned traditional trainer that thinks horse whispering and stuff like that is a load of cobblers!

I like horses with spirit and character and its why I said I know mine would dump her - and serves her right !

[Noir]

Sannois - I don't believe I'm being rude (unless having a different opinion means doing just that), and I certainly wouldn't get any pleasure out of it. I do get tired of Swedish pot stirrers who delight in getting folks all hot under the collar and mad at each other. I don't know why this Swede gets away with pronouncing herself expert on all matters dressage and frankly don't see how she qualifies. This has nothing to do with RK and everything with the control freak nature of said Scandinavian. I'm sorry to see folks playing along with it...

Hmm, sounds like a lot of your dislike of my actions on the BB and otherwise are founded in my nationality. I think this paragraph above says a whole lot about you, and very little about me. So now we know.

Theresa

[Ghazzu]

Hmm, sounds like a lot of your dislike of my actions on the BB and otherwise are founded in my nationality. I think this paragraph above says a whole lot about you, and very little about me. So now we know.

Theresa

I just wanna know--are "Swedish pot-stirrers" in any way related to the production of Swedish meatballs?

[Noir]

I just wanna know--are "Swedish pot-stirrers" in any way related to the production of Swedish meatballs?

Yes, if there's ground beef in the pot, the result may very well be meatballs. If there's peas it may be peasoup. It's all really a matter of what you put in there... ;-)

Theresa

[Karoline]

I love Noir
I love Noir
I love Noir
I love Noir
I love Noir
I love Noir
I love Noir
I love Noir
ad infinitum

And I hope you keep stirring the pot. And if others do not like it, perhaps they could devote some of their time, passion, vast knowledge (sic) to creating an answer to www.sustainabledressage.com that supports their position. That way, instead of beotching about Theresa, they can redirect all of us beotians to their fountain of truth. Until then Noir rules for her dedication and commitment to defending correct riding and horses everywhere.

[Noir]

Oh, dear, Karoline, I'm flattered (and a bit embarrassed).

I'm happy that I have made a small but noticable difference in the whole debate. I couldn't have done it without the wholehearted support of others, though. And very soon it will be time for others to take over the pot-stirring task completely, since I will begin to only spend my time with the most important thing in my life - my new baby to come!

So Karoline and everyone else, keep discussing the issue, keep alerting people to what's going on in the world of dressage, and keep a candle burning for "correct riding". I'll be back after the birth and nursing fog...

Theresa

[Karoline]

One the soon to be here addition to your family. Lucky baby!

[siegi b.]

Originally Posted by Noir
Hmm, sounds like a lot of your dislike of my actions on the BB and otherwise are founded in my nationality. I think this paragraph above says a whole lot about you, and very little about me. So now we know.


Is that really the best answer you can come up with? Kind of like your arguments when it comes to RK... :-) Illogical, irrelevant and based on fiction. Since there are several other Theresas on this board I tried to make the distinction... :-) Also, do you always refer to yourself in the plural?

Happy birthing and thanks for the break!

[Karoline]

"Sannois - I don't believe I'm being rude (unless having a different opinion means doing just that), and I certainly wouldn't get any pleasure out of it. I do get tired of SWEDISH pot stirrers who delight in getting folks all hot under the collar and mad at each other. I don't know why this SWEDE gets away with pronouncing herself expert on all matters dressage and frankly don't see how she qualifies. This has nothing to do with RK and everything with the control freak nature of said SCANDINAVIAN. I'm sorry to see folks playing along with it..."

Not, I cant see it either.

DUH.

[Noir]

If you, or anyone else interested, ever pointed out what it is that's "Illogical, irrelevant and based on fiction" I might come up with something more substantial as a reply, but noone ever does. I referred to the COTH community knowing. That would be refered to as "we". As for "always refering to myself in plural, there's 3 referals to "I" in the paragraph above it.

Oh, and you'll be left with all the other rollkur-debaters.

Theresa

[Sabine]

"Sannois - I don't believe I'm being rude (unless having a different opinion means doing just that), and I certainly wouldn't get any pleasure out of it. I do get tired of SWEDISH pot stirrers who delight in getting folks all hot under the collar and mad at each other. I don't know why this SWEDE gets away with pronouncing herself expert on all matters dressage and frankly don't see how she qualifies. This has nothing to do with RK and everything with the control freak nature of said SCANDINAVIAN. I'm sorry to see folks playing along with it..."

Not, I cant see it either.

DUH.

Note to brain: said Swede is not Swedish afterall. Rather Austrian.

[Thomas_1]

Now I've lost the plot on this one and love a good debate - but can someone tell me why is Sannois arguing with Noir? Is one pro and one anti rollkur because I've been ploughing through postings and I'm damned if I can work it out ???????????

[Karoline]

Sannois is not arguing with Noir, Siegi is.

And I think Sabine just compared Noir to Hitler, the Austrian reference, but I am not sure, because perhaps Noir is in fact Austrian.

[Sabine]

Sannois is not arguing with Noir, Siegi is.

And I think Sabine just compared Noir to Hitler, the Austrian reference, but I am not sure, because perhaps Noir is in fact Austrian.

Karoline- I did not and I do not appreciate such comments. This is what makes BBs dangerous. It is YOUR brain that did that and splurted it out - blahh just like that.

This is a fact. I would not have said that otherwise and I deeply resent nationalistic comments on a dressage board.. so do apologize!!!

[Karoline]

If you know that for a fact, then the last part of my sentence is self explanatory.

If she is swedish which she seems to be "my nationality", you must admit it is an odd thing to say that you think she is not Swedish but rather Austrian.

I dont believe I owe you an apology. Though of course the mere mention of Hitler is guaranteed to get the political correctness police all affluter.

[Sabine]

please reread what you said...be careful what associations you make and take your time responding. I do not post stuff I don't know.
Chill- and say- sorry if I brought up a word that is not wanted in a dressage forum...I surely would appreciate some tact in regards to the H-word......

[Karoline]

?

Do you feel the same about the Hitler word as you do about the I word: Idi Amin Dada, the S world Stalin, the new S word Saddam, etc...?

If you had said Italy, I would have brought up Mussolini.

[Sabine]

?

Do you feel the same about the Hitler word as you do about the I word: Idi Amin Dada, the S world Stalin, the new S word Saddam, etc...?

If you had said Italy, I would have brought up Mussolini.


Karoline- this is not a pissing contest...I am from Europe I don't care about the names you mention- I am German and I am sensitive to references to Hitler-it devastated my family....
nonetheless- I am not here to discuss my family or heritage - I am here to discuss dressage...so what do you have to say in regards to that- I would appreciate discussing..--- keep the rest to yourself please....it is appropriate , shows good taste and stays within the context of what we are discussing. Frankly I don't care how many nationalities you can man up- when you are from Europe - it's like cross state lines in the US- big WHOOP!

[Karoline]

Regarding the thread, I had a thought today that in a way this new way of riding, of training is almost like the rider is using its body like a bodybuilding machine, a piece of apparatus that puts the horse in a shape and maintains it which is why we are seing some posters here mention bulging biceps, a lot of strenght, etc...In this new way of riding the rider is sometimes called the fifth leg and you can see some of the riders using their upper bodies as a lever...and have a very fixed silhouette.

This may also explain why some horses appear to be in the same outline from beginning to end of a ride with no changes in the neck in extended trot or in walk.

It may also explain why some look at H.Schmidt way of riding as too much motion and incorrect when to me it shows his body's flexibility and ability to absorb motion with a soft seat.

Having Sab on the board has been very helfpul to me because she is the first GP trainer we have that is explaining her training approach, it is helpful to look at for example how some of us think of helping a horse bend more and how some of you(s) think of it - it is clear that there is a big divide. I am trying to see how much of it is semantic --for example you say "oblige the horse" and I say "ask the horse" and to me its extremely different, one implies making the horse, the other implies working with the horse toward a result--and how much of it is really a completely different way of ***looking*** at the horse.


These last few days have been very thought provoking for me.

[Gaia]

I know Noir, I have even been to her home!

I am Swedish - as is she. I think the Austrian remark refers to Ulrike Thiel of www.hippocampus-nl.com , she lives in Holland. And is a really courageous woman.
The important thing is not nationality. That means nothing to a horse. When you see the pictures and films of what is going on in the name of Dressage, something in you - as a human - reacts - or not. I don´t care if somebody´s husband had taken the pictures in blissful ignorance of what they depict. What you see in these pictures is not something beneficial to the horse.

[Noir]

... but can someone tell me why is Sannois arguing with Noir? Is one pro and one anti rollkur because I've been ploughing through postings and I'm damned if I can work it out ???????????

You know, this could have been so, although I think in this case it isn't. There is nothing that says that a pro and an anti rolkkur debater cannot agree on some things, and that two people on the same side cannot disagree.

But I guess that's me. I don't really care what side of the argument a posters posts have been on, but rather what they are saying in the post I'm responding to. It's the same thing with the nationality thing. I don't care if people are Dutch, German, Austrian, Swedish, or Norwegian. We are all interested in dressage, and I have more in common with these people than I have with other Swedes who think soccer is all the rage. And, yes, I'm Swedish. Ulrike Thiel is native Austrian but lives in the Netherlands. My anonymous photographer (the 2005 warmup-photos) is Dutch/Belgian. Horses for Life comes out of Canada. Etc.

Why is that important? Since we have no old dictator in Swedish history, does my swedishness connect me to Hans Blix instead? I whish, but hardly. I never met the guy.

Don't let this discussion deteriorate into a "your country committed this atrocity against my people 60 years ago" because that needs another forum.

Theresa

[Sannois]

Sannois - I don't believe I'm being rude (unless having a different opinion means doing just that), and I certainly wouldn't get any pleasure out of it. I do get tired of Swedish pot stirrers who delight in getting folks all hot under the collar and mad at each other. I don't know why this Swede gets away with pronouncing herself expert on all matters dressage and frankly don't see how she qualifies. This has nothing to do with RK and everything with the control freak nature of said Scandinavian. I'm sorry to see folks playing along with it...

As far as the Shepherds are concerned, they're my pride and joy! I was a member of the German Sherpherd Club (Deutscher Schaeferhundverein) and have taken a dog to Schutzhund II. That was a long time ago and nowadays I'm content to just put basic training on my pups because they're basically farm dogs and loving it. If you're anywhere near Waterford and need a Shepherd/foal fix' by all means come out and visit. We're easy to find....
Will do! Your critters are lovely.. When I retire I plan on getting back into shepherds.. I mis my dear departed girl something fierce!!! :sadsmile:

[Sannois]

Or maybe I insist on passing on the fire instead of perverting it? I'm in no doubt you will say anything that is the exact opposite to what I say. But it's a free world.

T
did all this fuss come from me complimenting Noir on her sig line??? Holy hell.. I have been on the old Slaughter thread.. Change of pace.. YIKE!! :winkgrin: I wasn't arguing about anything .. merely had my husband translate her line.. I really loved it.. Wowser, how words can get misconstrued!! :eek:

[slc2]

fill a barn full of perimenopausal maniacs, look what happens.

[Sannois]

fill a barn full of perimenopausal maniacs, look what happens.
I dont know who you are talking to ... I complimented her sig line.. Dang I wasnt even here... People really dont read what is written/:no:

[Velvet]

People really dont read what is written/:no:

Isn't that the blessing of being able to ignore and skip certain posters in this new forum? :lol:

[Night of Songs]

I have taught classical riding and classical dressage for over 30 years and whilst many labour under the illusion that this technique is something to do with dressage, in my professional view rollkur is riding at its worst.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever! Those who seek to explain the videos are merely making excuses for disgusting riding and horsemanship - whether its a caputured moment in time or for excessive periods.

Thank you Thomas_1, well said.

There is nothing that enhances the natural grace and movement of the horse with rider with this method.

A careful re-reading (or first reading!) of Podhajsky's books is necessary to all who practice and condone RK.

[egontoast]

a moment of silence, please....

[Thomas_1]

Thank you Thomas_1, well said.

There is nothing that enhances the natural grace and movement of the horse with rider with this method.

A careful re-reading (or first reading!) of Podhajsky's books is necessary to all who practice and condone RK.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of books on riding and training horses, believing that these are practical skills that cannot be taught or learnt from reading books. There is no doubt however that Alois Podhajsky contributed immensely to saving the Spanish Riding School horses when they were threatened during the war and that as Director of that establishment he had immense practical knowledge and experience of bringing on top level classical dressage horses.

For books though, I personally look further back and frequently refer to my 'bible' published in 1878 and not exactly light reading "Classical Equitation and horsemanship"

Read that and you will be as cynical as I am whenever some idiot tells you about the new training techniques espoused by modern table top books!