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nhwr
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:22 PM
Just look at these links.

They make me want to cry! Look at the unnatural positions into which the riders put their horses.

Can we allow this to continue?

http://www.equinecentre.com.au/_images/health_management_falls.jpg

http://thumb.shutterstock.com/photos3/display_pic_with_logo/5423/5423,1133610068,1.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a339/silverskye1/fall.jpg

http://www.powellprotec.com/eu/images/horse.accident.jpg

http://www.equinature.com/Images/services_pic1.jpg

http://www.u5uk.com/you/carrinsure/images/artimg/BNGMQ-S/fall.jpg

http://taproot.dreamhosters.com/archives/Cart.JPG

http://www.dichtung-digital.com/2003/parisconnection/horse-superman.jpg

YoungFilly
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:46 PM
nhwr, these are horrifying.

I don't know. As someone recently said to me, you can point fingers at any sport and say abuse. We say it about racing, racers could say it about Rollkur, saddle seat could say it about eventing. I don't see and end to it.

I just think if you value an animal, you take care of it to the best of your ability. I also think accidents happen, and you can make anything look really horrible by just showing one side.

That said, I feel extremely upset with the recent threads with some of the obvious abuses, dressage and otherwise.

physical.energy
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:53 PM
At least our horses will never have to know any type of abuse, and I am not pointing fingers at any thing in particular. It is just hard to see horses that are clearly not happy. Thank God I was with professionals who truly loved their horses. Going to a show was more like taking the horse on an active vacation.

SillyHorse
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:55 PM
Bwahahaha! :lol: :lol: :lol: The last two are worth looking at all the others!

nhwr
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:01 PM
SillyHorse, I sense you aren't taking this seriously!
How can we enslave our beloved horses and put them at risk this way? It is not right, I tell you. I don't know how you can fail to see that.

michellec
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:11 PM
The last one resembles a horse I currently ride.
How can I make it into my avatar?

EqTrainer
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:12 PM
NHWR - you must have been hiding in the water bucket, to get that last picture of my horse being mistreated! Damn you sneaky DQ's! I've been outed!

Carol Ames
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:13 PM
WEll said Young filly!If carried too far it could easilybe sasked "Should we even ride horses?" but,look at all tthe advantages domesticated horses have over the mustangs for instance. We take good care of our horsesI 'll be tthat most ofus have "gone without " sothat we could afford "extras" for our horses.We try to learn what THEY like to do hough that may not have been our intent in buying them.We do the best we can, but let's face it "bad things " happen; I'm sure none of those riders intended for those accidents to happen.but,when we get on a horse we recognize tthat falling is a possibility.I think Young Filly,iswise for a youngfilly.and, we should all "pull together"

JackSprats Mom
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:14 PM
Bwahahaha! :lol: :lol: :lol: The last two are worth looking at all the others!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Now now Sillyhorse, you've forgotten this is the thread where we (dressage riders) take the higher ground and go 'OH NO!!:eek: :eek: ' forgetting that these are merely snapshots and split seconds in life. Forgetting that this is the rarity and not the norm. Forgetting that bad things can happen to any horse. Forgetting that if a horse didn't want to event they wouldn't be competing at that level. Please now Sillyhorse just condemn and don't laugh. Ohh and don't forget that dressage NEVER ruins a horse :no: never has its abuses :no: never does anything cept promote horse welfare and wellbeing :yes: WE DRESSAGE RIDERS SHOULD RULE THE WORLD :winkgrin:

bigdreamer
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:15 PM
http://www.dichtung-digital.com/2003/parisconnection/horse-superman.jpg

I wish my horse could do that!

nhwr
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:29 PM
Here the poll is low and the horse is beyond on the forehand. You don't have to see the look in its eyes to know the poor animal is terrified.

http://www.equinecentre.com.au/_imag...ment_falls.jpg (http://www.equinecentre.com.au/_images/health_management_falls.jpg)




Next one, legs out behind, too much knee action, a violation of classical principles and using the board that way will probably draw blood.

http://thumb.shutterstock.com/photos...33610068,1.jpg (http://thumb.shutterstock.com/photos3/display_pic_with_logo/5423/5423,1133610068,1.jpg)



This one shows false engagement. Look, the horse's croup is actually above its withers.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...skye1/fall.jpg (http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a339/silverskye1/fall.jpg)




Overflexed and deep. This horse must be in severe pain.

http://www.powellprotec.com/eu/image...e.accident.jpg (http://www.powellprotec.com/eu/images/horse.accident.jpg)




This type of lateral flexion is unnatural

http://www.equinature.com/Images/services_pic1.jpg




This horse is completely off the aids and probably terrified.

http://www.u5uk.com/you/carrinsure/i...GMQ-S/fall.jpg (http://www.u5uk.com/you/carrinsure/images/artimg/BNGMQ-S/fall.jpg)




This guy is unlevel and the purity of the gaits are clearly compromised.


http://taproot.dreamhosters.com/archives/Cart.JPG




Oh sure, it is fancy but how can it be said that this type of movement is a good thing.

http://www.dichtung-digital.com/2003...e-superman.jpg (http://www.dichtung-digital.com/2003/parisconnection/horse-superman.jpg)

lstevenson
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:33 PM
I think it's ridiculus to say that those pictures are "cruelty". Accidents happen, and if you are trying to compare the falls in eventing to the cruelty of Rollkur that's crazy. The Rollkur horses look very forced and unhappy. Upper level event horses LOVE cross country. Sure they don't like to fall down, but it really doesn't happen that often. And as I said, bad accidents happen when the horse is loose in the field too. And I've seen some pretty bad trailer accidents. Does this mean that trailering horses is cruel?

Cruelty is FORCING the horse to do something he doesn't want to do, or doing something painfull to them. And no one can force a horse over a jump if they don't want to go.

And that last picture is clearly an edited photo. What's the point of that? I mean, it is funny, but it's not cruelty.

lstevenson
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:36 PM
Oh, I get it. Was this because someone accused you of not having a sense of humor?

Carol Ames
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:41 PM
You knowthere photo, somewhere of Klimke with Ahlerich schooling at a show when it could be be said that he , Klimke is abusing the horse horribly, horses' mouth is open head up, eyes alarmed, and,he, klimke, appears to be standing up , and balancing on the horses ' mouth; does anyone have that pic? I think it may have the "Ahlerich:" book.

Daydream Believer
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:42 PM
And no one can force a horse over a jump if they don't want to go.



That's true. No one can force horses to jump those big jumps and drops. I used to event and those horses really do love what they are doing or they don't do it for very long. Too much risk for the rider to try to force a horse to do that and get put in the hospital trying.... It's quite unlike some dressage training where the rider just cranks their nose shut, forces them into submission in an unnatural position, and the horse has little choice but to attempt to please their rider to get any respite at all.

JackSprats Mom
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:43 PM
This guy is unlevel and the purity of the gaits are clearly compromised.


See I disagree, this is again a snap shot in time, how on earth can you say the purity of the gaits are compromised :confused: You can't see how he is trotting from one picture. Once again a DQ thinking that just because a horse (or in this case a donkey) isn't in a pretty dressage ring and happens to be upside down that it can't keep its gaits pure :eek: :eek:

Honestly who are we to judge from these snapshots.

http://taproot.dreamhosters.com/archives/Cart.JPG

Jeepers
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:49 PM
Oh, but of course, they wouldn't do these things without us making them! An old, grumpy lesson pony should be left out in the pasture to not move any faster than a shuffle if he feels that way!! We shouldn't ride with any tack since that is unnatural and hurts snookums the pony. We should all ride in harmony with our horses and not be cruel. uh oh, I feel a song coming on...........Boooorn freeeee! As free as the wind blows, as free as the graaass grows, born free to follow-umphg.......pony felt the need to do a 180, crowhop and leave rider in the dirt, but that's just fine since he feels that way and that movement was of his own volition, even the poll being lower than his withers, just a snapshot in time

nhwr
Jun. 6, 2006, 09:50 PM
Horses do all the things they are doing here because of their generous nature and because we want to. After all, they don't tack themselves up. As stewards of these noble creatures, isn't it our responsibility to make their wellbeing paramount.

Saying these are just "accidents" or a moment in time is a cop out, isn't it?

JS Mom, I think you are just saying these things because he isn't a fancy WB with flashy gaits. It is your prejudice. Who would want a horse like that, anyway? Not me. A donkey is a much more servicable mount.

DressageGuy
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:00 PM
Here trolly, trolly, trolly... You just LOVE to stir the $#!& don't you nhwr?

claire
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:02 PM
Because if it is...I don't get what is so funny about eventing accidents. :confused:

I happened to see William Fox-Pitt's fall at Rolex this year and watched the horrible accident Michael Matz's Barbaro had at the Preakness and it still makes me sick to think about it!

If this is supposed to show humor...sorry, I think it is in very poor taste.

On the other hand, if this is to show that RK is OK because you can find ugly pictures in every discipline?

I still don't "Get It" :confused: These are photos (for the most part) of ACCIDENTS. True tragic MOMENTS.

RollKur is a Training Method in which a horse is held in a Hyperflexed position for a considerable period of time until he submits.
There are numerous photos/videos/and first hand experiences showing this. None of which any of the defenders/practitioners of this method have been able to prove are doctored or false. Strange...

UNCeventer
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:03 PM
This is rediculous. There are such things as trips or mis-steps that cause awkward jumps and reasons for refusals. But I have seen many horses fall in the field and run into trees and fences henceforth putting their bodies in "unnatural" positions. But its not abuse. Its not even a repeated action. I doubt those pictures have happened over and over and over in sequence.

I might just have to label you a troll today. Keep up the good work!

Phaxxton
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:07 PM
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a339/silverskye1/fall.jpg

That one is CLEARLY rider abuse.

Sickening. There should be a warrant out for that horse's arrest!

lstevenson
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:08 PM
nhwr-

You are welcome to come sit on my now semi-retired Advanced event horse to see who wants to go at those jumps more, him or you. I bet you a million dollars it will be him.:cool:


"Saying these are just "accidents" or a moment in time is a cop out, isn't it?"

I am still trying to decide if you are joking or not. Go back to the example of horrible trailer accidents. Does this make you consider it cruel to put a horse in a trailer?

UNCeventer
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:09 PM
HAHA Rider abuse! Yes, lets report the pony.

JackSprats Mom
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:35 PM
JS Mom, I think you are just saying these things because he isn't a fancy WB with flashy gaits. It is your prejudice. Who would want a horse like that, anyway? Not me. A donkey is a much more servicable mount.

You sound like SLC now putting words in my mouth :winkgrin: I was defending the ass not putting him down. I'm sure that ass moves just as well as a WB's~! And have you EVER seen a WB do airs above ground like that? I think not! LONG LIVE THE DONKEYS I have a feeling after poeple see that photo they shall realize just how undervalued they are and shall be the new flavour of the month (after the Gypsey Vanner thing dies down :winkgrin: )

HXF
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:44 PM
Just :D and:D and :D

nhwr
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:45 PM
I think it's ridiculus to say that those pictures are "cruelty". Accidents happen, and if you are trying to compare the falls in eventing to the cruelty of Rollkur that's crazy. The Rollkur horses look very forced and unhappy. Upper level event horses LOVE cross country. Sure they don't like to fall down, but it really doesn't happen that often. And as I said, bad accidents happen when the horse is loose in the field too. And I've seen some pretty bad trailer accidents. Does this mean that trailering horses is cruel?

Cruelty is FORCING the horse to do something he doesn't want to do, or doing something painfull to them. And no one can force a horse over a jump if they don't want to go.

An accident is something that happens that couldn't be anticipated. Clearly, it can be anticipated that a horse would fall and be injured or even die in these situations. Saying it doesn't happen very often makes it OK? :eek: These noble creatures gift us with the potential for a marvelous relationship. Are we to treat them so casually? Are they disposable then? We must be their protectors and their voice. And the excuse that these are elite athletes, different from others and they like it, doesn't seem to hold much water either.

If cruelty is forcing the horse to do something it clearly doesn't want to do or is painful to them, it is cruel to teach a horse to tie, make some horses stand for the shoer, to start them under saddle or sometimes just take them out of the pasture. You ask if it is cruel to put a horse in a trailer, by your own definition, it could be. Let me ask you this, do you think the horse really wants to go anywhere?

It depends on your view point, I guess ;)

bounce
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:45 PM
Okay, as to the whole thing- Abuse by Rollkur and Abuse of Event horses...

Why are either of them abuse? Rollkur appears to me to be a "training method". It is one that I personally believe does not "achieve the desired affect" of creating a "true dressage horse"... but that is my opinion. Those horses are doing a job. They are well cared for, well feed, probably even "loved". They have gleaming coats and good weight. They work what... at max 1 1/2 hours per day? Their riders believe in "stretching and hyperflexion". So do gymnasts and ballerinas... Are they abused? I don't see it.

If you are going by the pictures and claiming that the horses are "unhappy and tense"... you should take a look at my fat, walk, trot QH in the ring. If he is required to canter (and he has no soundness issues and isn't old!), his expression is MUCH worse than that! If you took a picture of him at that moment, he would appear to be the most abused creature in the world! Is he? No way! Same goes for many horses I have known! I had a mare that had a perpetual ear pinning! Was she abused? (She may have thought so...)
No... she just chose to express herself all the time (like some of the posters here:winkgrin: ) Just because the training method doesn't achieve what YOU or I percieve as the desired, happy, elastic, forward moving, bit accepting result... does not mean that it is abuse. There is room in this world for more than one opinion. Let people make up there own mind (and it gives us more people to beat in the dressage ring :D )

Same thing for eventing. A true event horse loves his job. He is going to go over the fence with or without the help from his navigator! He may or may not take opinions about when and where to jump from :yes: and he or his rider may make a mistake at some point. Is it abuse? :no: Does everyone like it? No... Does any one like watching a fall? No! But no one likes watching a car accident either, but everyone wants to drive.

Anyway, seems like the term "abuse" has become incredibly over used in the world. Why can't we just have differences of opinions? Sometimes, there is more than one right way to achieve a goal...:yes:

mcm7780
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:53 PM
The Superman Horse picture is my new background for my desktop. :D

YoungFilly
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:54 PM
nhwr before this thread goes completely nuts, I am 100% behind you. Funny parts aside. I believe you this was not meant to be a funny thread.

lstevenson
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:00 PM
An accident is something that happens that couldn't be anticipated. Clearly, it can be anticipated that a horse would fall and be injured or even die in these situations. Saying it doesn't happen very often makes it OK?


What a crock!

Now "it can be anticipated that a horse will fall and be injured or even die"? How ignorant.

An accident is simply-- an accident. To say an accident is something that can't be anticipated shows a lack of sense. You probably get in your car everyday. Do you realize you have a chance of getting in a car accident every day? This could definately be anticipated. Car accidents happen every day! Since you know they are a possibility, by your definition, if you were involved in a car accident, it would not be an accident?

And horses have a good chance of injury in the field, with no rider on their backs, or in the stall alone. They can even get hit by lightning. Maybe we should line them all up and shoot them to spare them the abuse!

bounce
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:09 PM
An accident is something that happens that couldn't be anticipated. Clearly, it can be anticipated that a horse would fall and be injured or even die in these situations. Saying it doesn't happen very often makes it OK? These noble creatures gift us with the potential for a marvelous relationship. Are we to treat them so casually? Are they disposable then? We must be their protectors and their voice. And the excuse that these are elite athletes, different from others and they like it, doesn't seem to hold much water either.



Can you anticipate that you will be in a car accident? If you put your child in the car with you everyday, and are then in an accident... does this constitute cruelty and abuse?

Just because I let my horse event... or I let me child play baseball... or whatever, this does not mean that I am treating them casually! I am developing that relationship to be strong and true. I am placing all of my trust into an animal that in turn gives me his. I ask him if he trusts me... and he says yes. He asks the same of me. They are not disposable, and I don't think that you will find a truer group of horseman than the event riders, because we do take the time to develop that relationship with our horses.
What would YOUR horse do for you?

bigdreamer
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:13 PM
horses die from pasture accidents. they get injured ALL the time. does that mean we should keep them locked up all day? but then surely something would go wrong in the stall, too, and they'd get hurt that way. perhaps we should put all horses down!

i don't know what happened with that case against anky and the one horse dying, but wasn't that associated with rk? at least for some time? so flat work can kill horses, too? or just any horse thats prone to a heart attack?

I thought the thread was supposed to be funny... apparently i was wrong??


as an eventer, I am offended. For the most part, these horses only jump round XC cuz they are dragging us to the jumps. The others usually weed themselves out by not doing well (stopping/running out). I don't know about your horse, but mine runs to the gate when I call him. I can only guess it's because he's so excited to get abused that he just can't wait for me to walk out to him!

people get killed in car accidents every day, does that mean we shouldn't drive? accidents happen, and it DOES NOT mean any one life is valued less than another.

what exactly are you trying to say here?

lstevenson
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:21 PM
I don't know about your horse, but mine runs to the gate when I call him. I can only guess it's because he's so excited to get abused that he just can't wait for me to walk out to him!



Yep. My horse could never wait to be abused either. Now that he's semi-retired, he stands at the gate pawing, just begging me for some of the abuse he used to suffer.:)

lukas1987
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:27 PM
Apparently from reading some of the responses, irony has become a lost art form.

bigdreamer
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:28 PM
*sigh* this is just silly.

people die riding... does that mean we shouldn't ride, either? perhaps the horses are training us to be bad riders so we fall off and kill ourselves. perhaps the horses have a secret plan to take over the world by picking us off one by one!

lstevenson
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:30 PM
Apparently from reading some of the responses, irony has become a lost art form.

I really don't think nhwr is kidding. I hope I'm wrong.

Jeepers
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:35 PM
Apparently from reading some of the responses, irony has become a lost art form.

amen to that!

lukas1987
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:35 PM
Yep. My horse could never wait to be abused either. Now that he's semi-retired, he stands at the gate pawing, just begging me for some of the abuse he used to suffer.:)
From following the rollkur threads, the next response should be: Well your horse is just suffering from learned helplessness.

So there is no mistake, I am kidding with what I just typed above.

RedMare01
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:35 PM
Good lord people....

SarCHASM. (n). the gap between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient who doesn't get it.

Caitlin

nhwr
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:36 PM
Merriam-Webster says the following Main Entry: ac·ci·dent
Pronunciation: 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall -- more atCHANCE (http://m-w.com/dictionary/chance)
1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity

Car accidents happen when something unanticipated happens for sure; tire blows out, another driver does something you didn't think they would, there is a hazard in the road. No one would drive if they weren't reasonably sure they could anticipate what could happen more often than not. Isn't the thrill of eventing in surviving the risk? To undertake something risky means you acknowledge the danger involved. We do that. The horses don't. Yes, they can be injured in their stalls or pasture, but that happens as part of their natural existence. I think being ridden falls outside to that. Afterall they are engaging in the activity we chose. I believe some horses really enjoy it, but it is our deal, not theirs. And I do believe we are responsible for their wellbeing.


My intention was to have this thread be a parody, a display of irony (hence the Alanis Morrissette reference), something to provoke thought, with a little humor.

For the record, I don't think eventing is abusive. But using the same arguements that people use against rolkur, it is easy to make it appear so. I am not aware of rolkur causing the death of a horse. I have seen a couple of horses die as the result of eventing crashes. I am not saying what happens in eventing justifies rolkur. I am saying that we all justify things because of our interests. That doesn't make us abusive neccessarily.

lukas1987
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:38 PM
SarCHASM. (n). the gap between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient who doesn't get it.
RedMare01: Love it. I have to remember that one.

Jeepers
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:39 PM
how about sar-schism ;) that is what's happening here

bigdreamer
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:41 PM
thank you for making yourself more clear.

I was laughing (i even posted on it before!) until a few posts made me think you were serious, and others found it serious.

I have been following the rk threads b/c i find it interesting, but I don't bash anything anyone says about it- i'm interested in finding out where it will all go.

I just get by breeches in a twist (not my underwear- remember, eventers go comando ;)) when people start bashing eventing. :)

lstevenson
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:51 PM
1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b : lack of intention or necessity


And a horse falling on x-c is not a planned event, nor is it the intention or a necessity. So you still don't have a leg to stand on.



"For the record, I don't think eventing is abusive. But using the same arguements that people use against rolkur, it is easy to make it appear so."


And this is where I think you ARE serious. And as I said in my first post, you CANNOT compare the two. Event horses WANT to jump cross country. Yes, they may fall if they make a bad enough mistake. But they are still happy with what they are doing. Rollkur horses do not want to be forced to hold their nose to their chest. You can't physically force a horse over a jump. But you CAN force their nose to their chest.

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:03 AM
A horse falling on course can certainly be forseen. Aren't there rules about timing and such, if a jump has to be reset after a crash? Don't rider wear safety gear? Seems like planning to me. Some horses may like eventing, but not all do. I have seen horses that prefer to travel with their poll low and BTV. What can we make of that? It may be possible to make a horse jump somthing it doesn't want to. Do you carry a whip or wear spurs when you ride cross country? I have to wonder why. I have seen many horses beaten over a fence, so evidently a lot of people disagree about that. And I believe Ludger Beerbaum can do anything :D:D:D

Jeepers
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:07 AM
lstevenson, it was an example to see a point, not a bash on eventing. One can twist ANYTHING to make it seem abusive or harmless. The two are comparable in that way, those pictures can make it seem that eventing is abusive to horses and the same goes for rollkur. Anything can be twisted to what people want to say or think. What is the truth then? ;)

whooops, started typing before you posted!

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:31 AM
A horse falling on course can certainly be forseen.


So can some idiot pulling into your lane in traffic. But it's still an accident.


"Don't rider wear safety gear? Seems like planning to me"

And don't drivers wear seat belts? And have cars with airbags? And shop around for the safest car? Because they know accidents are likely.


"Some horses may like eventing, but not all do."

Right, but the ones that make it to the upper levels (where your dramatic falls sometimes happen) do love it. They wouldn't have made it to that level if they didn't.


"I have seen horses that prefer to travel with their poll low and BTV."

I have never seen a horse that prefered to be FORCED into that positon.



"It may be possible to make a horse jump somthing it doesn't want to. Do you carry a whip or wear spurs when you ride cross country? I have to wonder why. I have seen many horses beaten over a fence, so evidently a lot of people disagree about that."

Nope. It is still the horse's decision. A whip or spurs can encourage a horse to give a certain jump a try that he may be unsure about. But it won't force him over. Just ask anyone who has gotten the big E for 3 refusals. You can, however, force a horse to put his nose on his chest and hold it there.


nhwr-

I understand you were trying to compare the alleged "abuse" associated with Rollkur with "abuse" in eventing. I'm saying it's not an intelligent comparison. It's apples to oranges.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:34 AM
lstevenson, it was an example to see a point, not a bash on eventing.

I now see that, thanks. But I still think it doesn't work. The point is not valid.

Jeepers
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:39 AM
I now see that, thanks. But I still think it doesn't work. The point is not valid.

to quote myself...

Anything can be twisted to what people want to say or think. What is the truth then?

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:43 AM
since you seem to be struggling :winkgrin: By using certain kinds of arguements (like saying a group photos, selected to show problems, represent the sum total of an experience, by making emotional appeals with flowery language or framing questions in such a way as to make any possible answer unacceptable) it is possible to make an apparently logical arguement out of nonsense. It can be done with eventing, it can be done with rolkur. That doesn't make the result meaningful.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:53 AM
since you seem to be struggling :winkgrin: By using certain kinds of arguements (like saying a group photos, selected to show problems, represent the sum total of an experience, by making emotional appeals with flowery language or framing questions in such a way as to make any possible answer unacceptable) it is possible to make an apparently logical arguement out of nonsense. It can be done with eventing, it can be done with rolkur. That doesn't make the result meaningful.


Again, I see what you were trying to do. I STILL don't think it works. There are plenty of "happy" cross country photos out there. Show me a "happy" Rollkur photo.

twnkltoz
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:02 AM
I think the horse (or is it an ass?) in the last picture is getting some nice stretch.

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:04 AM
Tell ya what, lstevenson. Show me a picture of a horse that is glad to be involved in a fall on cross country so we are comparing problems to problems and I'll get right to work on it. There are plenty of photos of, say, Anky or Gal's horse performing well, just like there are photos of horses loving their jobs on cross country. But somehow those pics just don't show up much in the discussions.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:21 AM
Tell ya what, show me a picture of a horse that is glad to be involved in a fall on cross country and I'll get right to work on it. There are plenty of photos of, say, Anky or Gal's horse performing well, just like there are photos of horses loving their jobs on cross country. But somehow those pics just don't show up much in the discussions.


Obtuse is right.:rolleyes: Let me redefine it for you. Rollkur is a forced, unnatural position, not Anky perfoming in the ring in a normal frame. So if you showed me pictures of Anky in the ring in the normal position, you would NOT be showing me a picture of Rollkur.

THERE ARE NO GOOD ROLLKUR PICTURES! Rollkur is a planned action. They do it every day. They do it on purpose! A fall is an accident.

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:27 AM
It isn't that subtle. But if you don't get it, you don't get it.

Rolkur is a response to a problem. Most people would agree pics of problems aren't usually pleasant. You know, like a horse crashing a fence? Yeah, that is the point :yes:

fergie
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:35 AM
nhwr,
I am an ex-eventer and I gotta agree with you - those accident pictures make me cringe and feel ashamed when non-horse people ask me about those accidents. I have a horse who would have jumped off the edge of the world for me - why?- just because I asked her to and she trusted me. It's quite a responsiblity to worry about when you have a horse who does anything you want just because she adores you.... I think a lot of event horses jump for us for just this reason and don't even consider if they like it or not. The "partnership" is what it is all it is about, and a good partner won't let you down. I don't necessarily like those pictures of RK either, but I reserve judgment until I actually see someone riding with this method. Unfortunately, there are excesses and abuses in all of the equestrian disciplines. It's our jobs as the owner/riders to prevent these abuses from running away with us and our horses just because it's the "thing to do" at the time. Sometimes making that choice for our horses comes at the expense of our own aspirations. These are hard choices...

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:36 AM
"Well, at least we have some agreement. "


:lol: No we don't , I was talking about you!

For the 10th time, I get what you are saying. I'm saying it's not an intelligent comparison.

And Rollkur is not a correct response to a problem. What is the problem that can't be solved in the classical, correct way?

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:37 AM
:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes: :yes::yes::yes:




lstevenson,

most people seem to get the point. Sorry you are having a hard time.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:46 AM
And are you having a hard time answering my question?

You say Rollkur is a response to a problem.

I asked you:


"What is the problem that can't be solved in the classical, correct way?"

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:54 AM
"What is the problem that can't be solved in the classical, correct way?"

According to guys like von Ziegner, this could be considered a classical and correct way, in the proper circumstances. My experience with this method, granted though it was limited to one horse, was that the day to day emphasis was on correct fundamentals. Of course, that isn't what be can be easily digested by watching a warm up ring nor is it the type of thing that stimulates much interest. This perception has been re-inforced at different times by the experiences I have had at clinics here and in Europe. Still I don't feel qualified to use it much myself, but I am keeping an open mind about it.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:58 AM
Again, what is the problem you are trying to solve?

Amchara
Jun. 7, 2006, 02:06 AM
I think dressage riders and eventers should not be allowed to talk about the others riding style. It would solve many a issue and wouldn't waste so much bandwidth.

lukas1987
Jun. 7, 2006, 02:10 AM
lstevenson:

I really think canyonoak quite eloquently answered your question here about what "problem" they are trying to solve:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=1638774&postcount=87

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 02:11 AM
None, these days. Our past issues have been addressed and things are progressing smoothly. My experience in the past was exactly what canyonoak describes. I can't speak for other riders, though so you'd have to ask them :sleepy:

Armchara, member of the equestrian Taliban :D:D:D

Good night all. I have an early day tomorrow.

Amchara
Jun. 7, 2006, 02:22 AM
lol, not sure if "arm" was part of the joke.

I've had my hrose fall twice. One time it was in an arena when she came to an awkard spot, hesitated, launched, and hit the jump. She was nervous about jumping for a total of two days. She sports a noticable scar on each knee.

Second fall she was running through my aids, was slightly above the path and her feet slipped out from underneath her. She had a "WTF just happened?" feeling and I re mounted and she listened much better, not fearing jumping at all (schooling XC).

Falls happen. The horse gets over it, or it doesn't. As was earlier said, you can't make them do anything in the end, just ask and ask them. The brain of an upper level dressage vs. upper level eventer is very different. I think the great event horses fall and get over it, eventually. It's what makes them great.

I also don't think you can compare the too, as I said, they are very different.

JSwan
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:11 AM
I'm sorry - what was the point? An unfortunate accident in a an eventing competition is the same as Rollkur as a training method?

Please - compare apples to apples. Moments in time can indeed be misinterpreted - but this thread was done to incite. Post pictures of Karen O'Connor abusing her horse (ok - Parelli does not count)in the warm up rings of a horse trial - as the steward looks the other way because the person is a big wig - and then let me know what the FEI is clucking over in terms of a new fashion in training event horses that they can't decide is humane or not. Then there might be a common frame of reference.

If you can't find any - well - the O'Connors just live a few miles away from me - I could probably go take some. But they wouldn't fuel your fire. - again - Parelli excepted.

Now back to the scheduled catfight.

If you want to compare dressage and Rollkur to another discipline - your best bet would be gaited horses. That's comparing apples to apples.

PiedPiper
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:29 AM
:no: :no: :no: :no:

Is there really no humor on this board? How on earth that ANYONE saw this thread as anything but tongue in cheek is beyond me? :eek:

YF- What is your deal with eventers? Jeez, is it b/c of our lack of Prada glasses and LV bags? :winkgrin:

nhwr- :winkgrin: :D Are you banging your head yet against a wall?

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:54 AM
lstevenson:

I really think canyonoak quite eloquently answered your question here about what "problem" they are trying to solve:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=1638774&postcount=87


So it is supposedly to eliminate tension in the back? Wow, what a lack of horsemanship showing if there is no other way to do that.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:56 AM
If you want to compare dressage and Rollkur to another discipline - your best bet would be gaited horses. That's comparing apples to apples.


Now THAT makes more sense.

HXF
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:17 AM
Ironically, at the office we're having the same debate about rodeo events. Some see it as abusive, the other side justifies it as "something that always been done" so it must be OK. And the wrecks that happen in the chucks, well, it doesn't happen "that often" and the horses "just love to run". I dunno, personally I don't see calf roping as a free chiro adjustment, but whatever.

So - where are those rodeo pics - lets bring on more lively debate...:winkgrin:

ridgeback
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:29 AM
I haven't been on these forums in a long time but it does appear there a lot of PETA type people on this list. Rollkur under an in-experienced riders hand is not good but if it was so bad for the horse I doubt you'd see all the winning buy some of the top riders who use this method. I will not get into an argument with people on this subject but when you have horses and riders there will be accidents this does not mean we should not watch out for abuse but to call some of the top dressage riders in the world abusive because you don't like their method is going too far.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:39 AM
I just have this frightful image of Jonathon Swift sitting before the fire with his quill pen, peppering his drafts with smiley faces. Don't eat the babies, really :)

But, to see both sides of the pictures, eventing has had its share of crashes and reforms. Don't quote me, but I think I read once that nearly as many people die eventing as horses do. It was partially because of its violent history and partially because of the exorbinant cost of building cross country courses that eventing was almost banned from the Olympics. (I find that somewhat ironic myself when the cost of building is balanced against the cost of life--human and horse). Reforms were made: shorter courses, more penalties against excessive speed, lower jumps, etc. So, it's not entirely wrong to say that some of those pictures are abusive, accidents or not.


I dunno, personally I don't see calf roping as a free chiro adjustment, but whatever.

I call it Pilates for Bovines. I have been in that position a few times myself. I think it's called "The Little Calf." That's a Pilates joke :)

sm
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:45 AM
then again, let's compare sports accidents to auto accidents -- ahem nhwr, or would you call it automobile abuse? Photos... anyone?

Lisa Cook
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:49 AM
Reforms were made: shorter courses, more penalties against excessive speed, lower jumps, etc.
Well,there you have it. At least in eventing, the problem of accidents is an acknowledged aspect of the sport and reforms have been set in place to address them, and hopefully reduce them as much as possible. (and you left out other reforms, such as the introduction of frangible pins)

What has dressage community done to acknowledge the problem of rollkur and what reforms have been put in place to reduce the incidence of rollkur as much as possible?

sm
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:56 AM
automobile abuse? nascar racecar abuse? Indy 500 abuse? Photos... anyone?

Not to mention this is not TRAINING METHODS it's ACCIDENTS.

JSwan
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:01 AM
I am many many things - but PETA type I am not. Folks may recall that I consider PETA a terrorist group. Anyway - they won't let me join because I hunt. Since I would have to give up shaving my legs and wearing deoderant - I'm ok with it.

Again - I think apples to apples is Rollkur and Gaited horses since both involve practices that are somewhat controversial yet are justified by winning performances and "experts".

I enjoy a good joke as much as the next person - but horses falling on xc always makes me cringe.

ridgeback
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:12 AM
I'm sorry I wasn't referring to any particular person on the PETA comment.

Sannois
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:20 AM
Here trolly, trolly, trolly... You just LOVE to stir the $#!& don't you nhwr?
I didnt know you had it in you!!!
I agree, this is silly to be comparing eventing spills to Rollkur!
After all eventers did not start the horses for life thread! :no:

GansMyMan
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:47 AM
When it comes to the original photos presented (and subsequent discussion), one can only look upon these examples as extreme evidence of The Human Condition. Perhaps those here have not been enlightened in this regard? It is difficult to imagine. However, I believe that Tolstoy had it right when he described women who love to Hunt (I add: love to Ride in General) as Nimrods. The Nimrods here have illustrated that:

1. A horse with its feet in the air can have really no "push" from behind and is therefore not complying with the first step of the training scale... forward. I'm sorry, is this not the first step? Well, I don't care.

2. When a horse falls this is/is not an accident. It is/is not the fault of the rider/audience/trainer/horse/tack/farrier. In any case, falling constitutes abuse/extreme care. What you may ask? Well, if you are not sure, you are a Nimrod.

3. All threads must include some discussion regarding Rollkur. All threads with Rollkur must name a specific poster and include a snarky comment. We are Nimrods, after all. Threads that verge off into Rollkur territory have obviously been steered there by the OP and his/her unconscious naming of Rollkur as abuse/training method and therefore the OP is biased and also a Nimrod.

4. Donkeys should have no place on a DQ board and obviously this is some sort of nefarious plug for WTD. WTD would like to invade DQ barns everywhere and must be squished under the delicate heels of my Jimmy Choos and then bashed with YF's L.V bag.

5. I am deeply familiar with a certain Nimrod's need for more self discipline. Posting at work should be considered verboten. Verboten must be used in all instances where this poster strives to be a) multicultural and b) worldly. All snarky comments regarding this post should be directed to me, who lives in Das Nichtige with Karl Barth.

HXF
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:00 AM
You rest my case :D :lol: :winkgrin: :yes:

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:05 AM
I am surprised at the lack of understanding of the concept of irony. But, whatever :rolleyes: And I specifically included photo of things other than eventing, as well. So this isn't solely about eventing. Dressage Guy and Sannois, I do like to try to get people thinking in different ways. If that is your definition of a troll, oh well.

I know many of those photos were of "accidents", but given the nature of the sport, it isn't a shock that they occur. The possibility of having a horse invovled in one is deemed an acceptable risk by those who participate in the sport. Riding, in general, is a lot bigger risk than driving a car. Ask any actuary. In terms of risk, it is rated more dangerous than riding a motorcycle, but slight behind skydiving on actuarial tables. Eventing probably looks it bit worse than a quiet hack in the park. J Swan asked on one of the rolkur threads if horses actually had to die for people to see rolkur as abusive. In eventing horses do die and no one seems particularly surprised about it. It begs the question, IMO. If you think these things are horrible, why engage in the activity that causes them?



automobile abuse? nascar racecar abuse? Indy 500 abuse? Photos... anyone?
I am genuinely surprised that so many who profess deep concern for an animal's welfare would compare the wellbeing of a horse to that of an inaminate object. That is a pretty callous attitude.

My point is that with a few choice photos and the right turn of a phrase, it is possible to plausibly brand an activity in any light you chose. Carry on.



Gans :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

JSwan
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:40 AM
You're taking that comment out of context - the one about rolkuring horses having to die.

Withdraw it.

That was in response to sabryants opinion that no rollkured horses have died from that method of training and so it must be ok (I'm paraphrasing). I said I don't require horses to die to prove a point.

And trying to obsfucate by intimating that accidents that happen on xc are somehow a result of abuse, even in jest, does nothing but add fuel to the fire.

Accidents are accidents. When a horse is injured or dies - it's a sadness for all - but particularly for the rider who has lost a friend and partner. Whether that accident occurs while frolicking in the pasture, on a trail ride, or at a competition. In eventing's defense - that sport has done everything in its power to ensure safety. From safety committees, to improvements in course design, to requirements for human and equine emergency equipment - and also thoughtful debate on the future of the sport, certifying instructors - I could go on.

I think the real problem is that dressage has never been subjected to the level of scrutiny and questioning other horse sports are - even rodeo has cleaned up its act, and there is more oversight of the welfare of horses and other livestock in competition. The gaited industry most certainly has been under the gun.

But dresssage - that's always been more pure - more focused on harmony. Somehow "better" than the other sports.

Now - the same questions are being asked of dressage that were asked of other sports. Being subjected to increased scrutiny - well - you're seeing what some might call "dressage's dirty little secrets".

So perhaps it's time dressage engages in the same exhaustive self examination the other sports have done - and hopefully come out of it stronger and more confident that the welfare of the horse is the first priority.
Personally - I'm not seeing it. I'm hearing the same defense of Rollkur that I heard about gaited horse training methods - the training methods that were deemed abusive and are now a federal crime.

You can say all you want about Rollkur to explain it's extremes. It wins. It's only used in certain circumstances - whatever you want. But in the end - I think it may be time dressage was subjected to the same level of scrutiny the other horse sports had to go through.

doccer
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:41 AM
Sooooooooo, not a joke? :confused:

If it was meant as a joke ???? Falls are not funny, unless it's a rider who lands square on her feet OR in the water jump :yes: both walking away fine.

If not a joke :uhoh: Some people have a twisted ignorant sense of reality and other equestrian disciplines.

sm
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:59 AM
You can be counted on to twist and mis-state nhwr. Carry on. I know JSwan wants some cohesive thought process out of you, good luck with it!!

Equibrit
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:08 AM
The simple answer to your question; "How can people train horses this way?" is............... They don't.

atr
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:10 AM
I don't find the donkey one inthe least bit funny. I can't imagine his daily life is a bowl of roses.

BarbB
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:10 AM
Good lord people....

SarCHASM. (n). the gap between the author of sarcastic wit and the recipient who doesn't get it.

Caitlin

:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

I can't decide which is sillier, the original post or the pontificating answers. :rolleyes:

PiedPiper
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:13 AM
In eventing horses do die and no one seems particularly surprised about it.


Completely not true. Every time a horse dies it is a shock let alone a shock. That is never the "goal" or an acceptable result for any eventer or event. There has been a lot done in eventing to improve the safety of the sport as there continues to be every year.

I was on your side there in the beginning nhwr but watch where you tread or at least understand your own comparisons.

bigdreamer
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:15 AM
Never said it was a joke (well maybe the last 2 photos)


so its not a joke.

i thought it was sarcasm, too, at first... but ended up being wrong.

just thought I would point this out for those of you who didn't see it. :)

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:05 PM
I said this thread was a parody, ironic; never said it was a joke.

It is a legitimate question, no? How can we, who talk so much about the welfare of animals with one side of our mouths, defend an activity that puts them at significant risk? It is not uncommon for horses to be injured badly on cross country. What makes that legitimate? It is all well and good to claim these are accidents (though it seems to be something that is anticipated as a potential problem), but does that matters to the horse? The cry "These are accidents" kind of sounds like an ends justifies the means arguement. But afterall this is big business, I guess. To say things like "There has been a lot done in eventing to improve the safety of the sport as there continues to be every year. " implies an understanding of the inherent risk. But maybe you guys aren't comfortable examining that.

So the eventers don't feel picked on, how do you guys feel about horses in bull fighting, is that OK?

I don't know anyone who think self examination and scrutiny of different equine disciplines is a bad idea. I certainly support it.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:13 PM
I am surprised at the lack of understanding of the concept of irony.


Actually nhwr, most of us understand irony pretty well. We also understand stupidity. And are seeing a lot of it here.

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:17 PM
tsk tsk tsk

not much of an answer, lstevenson :lol:

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:26 PM
The truth hurts, doesn't it nhwr?

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:31 PM
nope

I know there is a lot to learn.
I am open to it.

sm
Jun. 7, 2006, 04:19 PM
"I know there is a lot to learn.
I am open to it."



Then all photos with exception of the last two are EVENTING and your question belongs on the EVENTING FORUM. Maybe you'll get lucky and Denny Emerson will respond to your posts. He's ideal since he runs a training camp http://www.tamarackhill.com/ and well at having several international honors http://www.tamarackhill.com/AboutUs/about-us.htm.

Just try to leave out any part that remotely suggests he's either stupid or doesn't care about his horses. LOL.

Do include your questions on your OP, he may have the answers for you: "They make me want to cry! Look at the unnatural positions into which the riders put their horses. Can we allow this to continue?"

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 04:31 PM
I haven't called anyone stupid or said they didn't care for their horses. I did point out some inconsistancies and ask questions. Maybe that makes some people feel defensive. Did I break some sort of rule here? Or are you saying that because you don't think I have the right expereince, I can't form an opinion? That sounds familiar somehow.....

BTW, I know who Denny Emerson is. I owned a really nice Loyal Pal mare for a number of years :) Back in the day, I evented a little ;) But thanks for the tip. One question though, haven't we already dispensed with the idea that something is OK simply because a successful international competitior is involved with it?

DressageGuy
Jun. 7, 2006, 05:00 PM
nhwr, the point people are trying to make, and that you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge, is that eventing accidents are not planned and most of all, NOT INTENTIONAL. Unlike rollkur, which is a planned, intentional, systematic methodology (if you can call it that).

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 7, 2006, 05:17 PM
nhwr, the point people are trying to make, and that you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge, is that eventing accidents are not planned and most of all, NOT INTENTIONAL. Unlike rollkur, which is a planned, intentional, systematic methodology (if you can call it that).


Uh ... I get it. But I still see the irony (tragic as the examples are) ... and it seem to me that it's pointed less at the specific examples of rollkur and eventing accidents as it is the penchant for people to get very wound up about activities about which they have limited experience.

If ALL you saw of eventing were those photos, you'd condemnify it.

I think that's more the point of the thread (pot stirring tho it may be) than any defense of another activity.

An excellent point made on this thread, however, is that the scrutiny to which many horse sports have been subjected have resulted in outcomes (typically) beneficial to the horse participants.

The thing is, until you've ridden a really keen eventer, it's difficult to believe the horses really wanna do that. Even if you argue that they can't understand the risks, my experience has been that they are willing partners in the insanity!

Until you've ridden a particular kind of horse "deep" and experience "enough" versus "too much", you can't know the difference. (I asked an instructor once if what I was doing was rollkur ...hell, it felt round and super-deep to me from the top ... wasn't near, she said.)

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 05:17 PM
the problems experienced by riders who use rk aren't planned either and the penalty the horse pays, should a problem occur, isn't nearly as severe. Since it is well known that horses are injured in eventing and there are a lot of precautions taken in eventing to try to make it safer, it looks like the risk of serious injury to the horse is deemed acceptable within certain guidelines. To me, there is a disconnect here. As I said ealier I don't neccessarily diasagree with this line of thinking. But it does seem a bit more extreme than what happens at dressage competitions that everyone knots their knickers over. And everything that has been said to prop up the anti rolkur side can be turned back and used the same way against eventing or any equine sport really. I guess it depends on whose ox is gored.


AWG gets it!

kkj
Jun. 7, 2006, 06:08 PM
Nhwr,

I understand both your irony and your argument. Are you and Attorney? I think you would be a good one.

Let's simplify it. Both eventing and Rolkur are abusive. The difference is the of the proximity of the abuse. In eventing, it is not whether you crash and cause the horse pain, injury or death, but when. If you do the sport long enough, you will crash and likely cause your horse pain worse than Rolkur. You may make it through a whole career without killing yourself or a horse, but you won't make it through a whole career without causing a horse some major pain. In Rolkur the abuse is immediate- the long term detriments still debated and yet fully known. In Rolkur, the abuse is deliberate although the abuser may very well not consider the act to be abusive at all. In eventing crashes the abuse is more like negligence, not intended but reasonably foreseeable for those who partake in such a relatively dangerous sport. (anyone who says it is a shock when these crashes occur is living in a dream world. Crashes happen Period) Which is worse? Well who really knows; we could debate it forever. Totally depends on your prejudices, experiences, what you ate for breakfast whatever. Bottom line, you can get just as long a jail sentence for the involutary manslaughter of some poor innocent kid when you are drunk driving (something you had done successfully 1000 times before), as if you deliberately stab someone maim them for life but leave them still breathing.

BarbB
Jun. 7, 2006, 06:20 PM
In eventing crashes the abuse is more like negligence.

I normally try to keep a sense of humor on these boards, especially when people are spouting off about things they obviously know nothing about.....but this is about enough of this.
This is one of the most STUPID statements I have ever heard expressed on these boards. And I choose that word very carefully.

Main Entry: 1stu·pid
Pronunciation: 'stü-p&d, 'styü-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French stupide, from Latin stupidus
1 a : slow of mind b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason


I think I am going to go find something else to participate in and leave you two dimwits, yes, you two.....yes, dimwits....kkj and nhwr, to pat each other on the back.

And for anybody who wants to flame me for name calling.......I've been here for so many years I feel entitled just this once :yes: :eek: :yes:

kkj
Jun. 7, 2006, 06:52 PM
BarbB am I and nwhr the only one you have called a stupid dimwit? If so I feeled not offended but honored. No honestly, I was just trying to illustrate the logic of the abuse argument the irony and all.

I have done a little eventing myself. Only novice level, as I am a huge wimp.

I am debatably a very logical person. Scored insanely high on the logical reasoning section of the LSAT. Also a very passionate person who has to stand back sometimes and breath and realize my prejudices and perspective is really coloring my reasoning. Could that be the case with you? If you love eventing, you might defend it blindly and not be open to the logic of the argument.

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:44 PM
kkj, you get it too :D


BarbB

If it makes you feel better, right on with your bad self. That is what matters afterall, isn't it?

Are you familiar with the quote from Hamlet "The lady doth protest too much"? ;)

bigdreamer
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:32 PM
just because i'm curious...

i'm being "logical" here, i do not support one side of the RK debate over the other b/c i have no experience with it, but i want to know what you have to say...


when it comes down to looking at the photos... where are the "good" pics of RK? in eventing, for every picture of a fall, is a thousand others of gorgeous rides making it over jumps.

playing devils advocate here, where are the pics of horses doing rk that, as the people who don't like it say, show the horse being "happy" and not with their hocks trailing out behind and looking tense and trapped etc etc??

nhwr
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:41 PM
bigdreamer,

just as falls aren't the sum total of a cross country ride, rolkur isn't the sum total of a dressage test. There are good pics of the riders who use rolkur. But I think it is a fallacy to rely solely on pictures. Regardless of what some websites say, they don't tell everything :no:

meupatdoes
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:05 PM
I can't tell if you are joking or not.

The last picture is obviously photo-shopped, and it is somewhat silly to cite pixel manipulation as an example of abuse; the one before it is less 'training' than an unfortunate snafu with an overloaded cart, so while I feel bad for the burro I'm sure it wasn't intentional and it seems like it will be fine when they get it down; and I really don't get why you have a problem with the palomino stetching its neck: the horse is totally unrestrained, the person is in no way pulling on it or forcing it, and if you have ever seen a horse scratching its hip with its teeth, you will recognize that it is only at about 1/4 of its range of motion. It is a carrot stretch- people do them to warm up a horse much as a human runner will stretch out his legs before setting off.

I can see your point with the eventing pictures, but you are making yourself look ridiculous when you throw in a carrot stretch, random people in 3rd world countries having a mishap with a burro and a photo shopping as examples of rampant 'abuse'.

bigdreamer
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:16 PM
ok, so, how exactly does one use rk? is it a position that a rider goes in and out of, depending on how the horse feels? for instance if you lost the horses back, do you use it to get it back, and then go back to normal? or is it ridden in consistently, no matter how generous the horse is being?


lets say for the time being we are going to use pictures to judge this stuff.


I know with every picture of a horse jumping, there is generally a flaw *somewhere*, i.e. legs not evenly tucked, a shoulder dropped, an improper release... so lets equivelate those "flaws" to the flaws seen in rk- hocks trailing, tense horse, "unhappy" horse, etc. so in the every now and then case that you do see a horse jumping perfectly, where is a picture showing a horse that is perfect and successfully benefiting from rk? that is using itself correctly, that isn't tense, etc. I would like to think that if rk is useful, it should relax the horse, no? This is so I can better understand it's application and results. not so I can go use it, so I can understand it.

justjay
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:30 PM
i dont get this
first of all, i understand that the op is trying to say a picture can make anything look abusive and that people can make arguments out of nothing
however:
how can anyone say that a cross country fall is planned or forced?
just as planned as riding a bike and falling, and you wear a helmet just in case
when a horse falls the rider does not force its legs out from underneath him so he trips
in rk the ride forces the horses head down. now i am not a dressage rider but i know a lot of these pics we see aren't the whole picture, just as these cross country pics arent the whole picture. the comparison though is comparing a forced improper use of rk to an accidental fall, and you cant compare two unlike things like that
if a horse loves cross country, it is the horses choice to jump and if the horse falls it it is an unfortunate accident
no horse loves doing rk the awful way we see in the photos and so if there are any negative consequences it wasnt because the horse wanted to do it and an accident happened.
the riders of these horses cross country know that the horses love it, and the horses that make it to the high levels have to love doing it. riders doing rk know that the horse doesnt love doing it
that being said, there are some great dressage trainers and some great event trainers, as well as some not so great ones
there are the ups and down of every sport, but using accidental cross country falls was the wrong thing to compare it to
no picture can tell every sport. there are stunning pictures of dressage horses doing grand prix tests, just as there are gorgeous pictures of horses jumping cross country
xcountry http://mvhunt.net/images/summer05/IMG_3975a.jpg

dressage http://www.horsedeals.co.uk/advertimages/1215-Mar05.jpg
there are so many differences between the ups and downs of a sport and a sport cant be judged as a whole by one point in time

draftgirl01
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:09 PM
Why do you have a problem with the massage therapy ones?

"This type of lateral flexion is unnatural

http://www.equinature.com/Images/services_pic1.jpg"

I use this person on my horse, she does wonders with her, and all the exercises she has shown me have improved the mobility in my horses neck, I see nothing cruel about any of this.

mjs
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:32 PM
I can't tell if you are joking or not.


I can see your point with the eventing pictures, but you are making yourself look ridiculous when you throw in a carrot stretch, random people in 3rd world countries having a mishap with a burro and a photo shopping as examples of rampant 'abuse'.

The OP may have had a point for discussion but the way it was done stinks of sour grapes.......GET OVER IT

Touchstone Farm
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:34 PM
A few months ago in a small town in Wisconsin, not far from where I live, a woman was killed in her bed one night when a car drove through the wall of her house.

Moral of the story. Don't sleep in your bed -- and for gawd's sake, don't take your horse to bed with you. nhwr will show a picture of the scene and try to rationalize rolkur or zwangsjacke as not being as abusive as sleeping.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:37 PM
I normally try to keep a sense of humor on these boards, especially when people are spouting off about things they obviously know nothing about.....but this is about enough of this.
This is one of the most STUPID statements I have ever heard expressed on these boards. And I choose that word very carefully.

Main Entry: 1stu·pid
Pronunciation: 'stü-p&d, 'styü-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French stupide, from Latin stupidus
1 a : slow of mind b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason


I think I am going to go find something else to participate in and leave you two dimwits, yes, you two.....yes, dimwits....kkj and nhwr, to pat each other on the back.

And for anybody who wants to flame me for name calling.......I've been here for so many years I feel entitled just this once :yes: :eek: :yes:



Right on BarbB!:yes: I couldn't agree more!

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:38 PM
A few months ago in a small town in Wisconsin, not far from where I live, a woman was killed in her bed one night when a car drove through the wall of her house.

Moral of the story. Don't sleep in your bed -- and for gawd's sake, don't take your horse to bed with you. nhwr will show a picture of the scene and try to rationalize rolkur or zwangsjacke as not being as abusive as sleeping.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:01 PM
just as falls aren't the sum total of a cross country ride, rolkur isn't the sum total of a dressage test.

Your thinking is extremely flawed.

You are comparing cross country falls with a dressage training method, which there is NO logic to. It's like comparing a piano to a tuna fish sandwich.

A fall or injury in any discipline is an unplanned accident. Rollkur is a planned excercise. Planned FORCE. The pictures do tell the story. And the difference is THE RIDER WANTS IT TO HAPPEN. Unlike a fall, which no one ever wants to have happen in any discipline.

And again I say, show me some "happy" Rollkur pictures. It doesn't matter if the rider can then go in the ring and win and have the horse look happy there. I'm sure the horses look estatic because the Rollkur is over!

And Rollkur is NOT a part of a dressage test. If it were everyone would have to do it.


nhwr a lawyer? :lol: Lawyers have to be good at logic.

nhwr
Jun. 8, 2006, 12:41 AM
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol:

You can make it personal, doesn't bother me. I guess it is easier than addressing difficult questions :yes:

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 12:44 AM
What difficult questions? Specificly ask your question.

DressageGuy
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:18 AM
You're the one ignoring the difficult questions nhwr. She'd be a great lawyer, she can talk in circles and not say a single damn thing of importance. Lawyer's like that make great money, look at the O.J. case...

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:24 AM
You're the one ignoring the difficult questions nhwr. She'd be a great lawyer, she can talk in circles and not say a single damn thing of importance.

I guess you're right! :lol:

snoopy
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:25 AM
Your thinking is extremely flawed.

You are comparing cross country falls with a dressage training method, which there is NO logic to. It's like comparing a piano to a tuna fish sandwich.

A fall or injury in any discipline is an unplanned accident. Rollkur is a planned excercise. Planned FORCE. The pictures do tell the story. And the difference is THE RIDER WANTS IT TO HAPPEN. Unlike a fall, which no one ever wants to have happen in any discipline.

And again I say, show me some "happy" Rollkur pictures. It doesn't matter if the rider can then go in the ring and win and have the horse look happy there. I'm sure the horses look estatic because the Rollkur is over!

And Rollkur is NOT a part of a dressage test. If it were everyone would have to do it.


nhwr a lawyer? :lol: Lawyers have to be good at logic.






YES YES YES.....WELL PUT!!!!! I could not agree with this statement more. AGAIN......WELL PUT. I never thought of it that way but I suppose the horse WOULD look happy being free from Rollikur.:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

Ja Da Dee
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:26 AM
The thread title is this: How can people train horses this way? It is abusive.

Just for your information, crashing on XC is not a "training method" so you are comparing apples to turnips. Now, if you were showing pictures of someone standing there with a longe whip forcing a horse over a huge ditch, you may have a valid point of discussion.

Just for the record, my opinions on Rolkur are neutral and I'm a bit tired of reading about it.

snoopy
Jun. 8, 2006, 09:02 AM
Just for the record, my opinions on Rolkur are neutral and I'm a bit tired of reading about it.[/QUOTE]


Then don't:p

fergie
Jun. 8, 2006, 10:53 AM
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Bunch of defense and prosecuting attorneys here (some supreme court judges too....)!!! I DO like the way this forum at least has people with strong opinions who are not afraid to express them!!!

fergie
Jun. 8, 2006, 10:54 AM
Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Bunch of defense and prosecuting attorneys here (some supreme court judges too....)!!! I DO like the way this forum at least has people with strong opinions who are not afraid to express them!!!

slc2
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:18 AM
i dont think her thinking is flawed at all. i think like most normal people, she's getting a little fed up with how self righteous some people are. if you dont like that training method, don't use it, and write the fei if you want it banned. now let's get back to the usual business here, of ranting about how top riders suck or judges suck, or how everyone abuses their...wait! those aren't any better, LOL.

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 12:17 PM
i dont think her thinking is flawed at all. i think like most normal people, she's getting a little fed up with how self righteous some people are. if you dont like that training method, don't use it, and write the fei if you want it banned. now let's get back to the usual business here, of ranting about how top riders suck or judges suck, or how everyone abuses their...wait! those aren't any better, LOL.


You don't think it is flawed thinking to be comparing a piano to a tuna fish sandwich? I think you BOTH need new meds.

ideayoda
Jun. 8, 2006, 12:44 PM
Mistakes and slips on take off will always happen occasionally. But, Interestingly enough these people arent training, but showing. Showing what? What is the cause for the wrecks? We go back to training. Eventers flat training is following the deep and round theory, therefore the half halts they will need are missing. Jump work today is based on clean and jerk, power jumping. (Course designers know this, and play against it, which causes even more wrecks). Such a style might ork when the horse is stadium (only a rail comes down), but not so much when the horse is tired and a leg (particularly foreleg) comes down low. We add to that that roads and tracks and staying ability has been removed, and we are trying to make wbs (rather than tbs) into the distance/quick horses who run fast. But they get tired in a different way. Goes back to the effect of training and balance even on the flat.

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 12:54 PM
Eventers flat training is following the deep and round theory, therefore the half halts they will need are missing.



Uhh... What?!? What on earth makes you say that?!?

Ideayoda, usually I quite agree with what you have to say, but this time you are way off.

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:11 PM
Jump work today is based on clean and jerk, power jumping. (Course designers know this, and play against it, which causes even more wrecks). Such a style might ork when the horse is stadium (only a rail comes down), but not so much when the horse is tired and a leg (particularly foreleg) comes down low. We add to that that roads and tracks and staying ability has been removed, and we are trying to make wbs (rather than tbs) into the distance/quick horses who run fast. But they get tired in a different way. Goes back to the effect of training and balance even on the flat.


Clean and jerk? I'm not even sure what that means.

And FYI falls usually do not happen on x-c because the horses are tired. Event horses are conditioned, and they usually do not get tired on x-c except at the end of a long x-c at a three day. They do not get tired in HT. If stadium jumping is the next day, they might be a little stiff and sore for stadium, and therefore might not jump as cleanly as usual. Most of the horses you watch at Rolex for example, would jump clean around the show jumping if they hadn't just done the x-c the day before. Running around x-c puts them in a different mind set too.

Frank Chapot once said that a showjumper is a delicate mix of chicken and bravery on the horses part. Put too much chicken in the mix, and he won't go. Put too much bravery in the mix, and he doesn't care, he knocks things down. And that is what eventers deal with with the showjumping. They are riding a horse that probably isn't too impressed with the look of the showjumps.

Falls happen because of a balance, timing, or concentration issue while things are happening at great speed. Speed being the biggest problem.

ideayoda
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:13 PM
Go to the warm up, look at the show ring (how many pix show the horse up and open?). Go to most of the eventing riders barns, I see it daily. They should not follow it, but they do. To the same extent? No, because they still have to jump. And what happens? The horses wear stronger and stronger bits jumping. The only difference is that you can say would you ride like this to a fence and they get the idea of balance.

Ja Da Dee
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:23 PM
Clean and Jerk?? Interesting impression you have since every eventing trainer I've ever ridden with or audited (granted, not a huge number, but some UL's, ML's and LL's) stress stress stress rythem, balance and impulsion (not running) to the fence and NEVER do you get in their face the last few strides.

I've had more than one tell me jumping stadium is just like a dressage test with jumps in it, ride the flat parts with rythem, impulsion and balance, then the jumps take care of themselves.

bounce
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:26 PM
Eventers flat training is following the deep and round theory, therefore the half halts they will need are missing.

I don't know what eventing barns you are watching... but that hasn't been the case at any that I have been to!

Go the warm-up ring of ANY show- dressage included... and you will see "the good and the bad"! How about not lumping everyone into one big heap!! :mad:

kkj
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:28 PM
lstevenson, it is not comparing a piano to a tuna fish sandwich. Let's once again simplify it. In both Rolkur and Eventing crashes, the rider puts the horse into an (unnatural) situation which causes it abuse/harm/pain/death/discomfort whatever. The rider is the but for cause of this pain. The horse would not be out running around in Rolkur without the rider hauling on the curb chain. The horse would not be out galloping over a course of cross country fences either.

You think nwhr is talking in circles because you do not accept the premise of the argument. You are too close to it to see it objectively. You participate/participated in eventing and you never deliberately injured/abused a horse. You think that crashes on the cross country course are freak accidents like someone running over you with a car when you are sleeping in your bed. However, crashes in cross country are frequent enough that the event is foreseeable. Having someone run over you with a car while you are in bed is only foreseeable if your bed is parked on a freeway or something. How many of the top level riders in the world have not crashed, broken bones, had to permanently retire a horse from competition due to injury or yes even death? I am sure when it happens the well-meaning very nice event rider is devasted, but they cannot claim to be shocked that such a foreseeable event has indeed occured. It is a dangerous sport. People with a lot of guts and skills who I greatly admire assume the risk for themselves. They also assume the risk for an animal who is incapable of appreciating that risk. The horse may very well love it, but it does not appreciate the risk. You are putting the horse in a situation where a foreseeable tragedy has a higher likelihood than a lot of the horse world or outside world would be willing to risk. You got balls. Then when and if this tragedy occurs, you are stating that it was just an unfortunate accident. You can't have it both ways. There is some culpability for the rider in the accident of horses on the cross country cross. You assume the risk knowingly for an animal who is incapable of doing so, so you are responsible.

Now I don't think eventing is cruel or should be outlawed, but I can see it for what it is. I have done a little myself but decided for me the risk at the higher levels was not something for me personally. I do not wish to attack those who take the risk, but I think they should own that risk. I would not sell my horse to someone who had the intention of eventing her at the upper levels. I would feel too guilty if she got hurt. I would not sell her to someone who admits to me they practice Rolkur either. Still I am sure without any deliberate intention that in the course of my lifetime, I have sold horses into some kind of abuse. Horses are abused every day in every single discipline.

Abuse in horses is a slippery slope argument. Where do you stop? Only the very obvious, the very deliberate, the ones most reasonable people would agree on, all the ones you wouldn't personally do yourself? Where- electricuting horses for insurance money, caning, sticking with a cattle prod, rolkur, making a horse jump a big solid advanced level cross country course at a high speed where in it has a much higher chance of breaking its neck than any pasture ornament or person sleeping in their bed (or any dressage horse or jumper for that matter), making a fat lazy pony run around in circles, making an old horse with back issues carry someone with 50 extra pounds and not the best seat, being a crummy rider and hitting your horse in the mouth over every fence, the millions of people who either don't know or don't care that their horse is not sound and they ride the poor thing day after day anyway, riding horses at a competitive level so most of them will end up with hock arthritis eventually, ever putting a bridle on the horse in the first place, making them wear a girth, keeping them confined in a stall, breeding them without their full knowledge, consent or choice of partner. Do you see the absurdity of it all?

Do you think the horse if it could fully appreciate the situation would really care whether or not the abuse was deliberate? If someone steps on my toe deliberately or not, it still hurts the same. Horse are really saints to endure all the crap we do deliberately and otherwise to them.

Now nwhr and I do not agree on everything. I agree with the argument and the logic and reasoning, however we have very different core beliefs. I hate Rolkur while I love competitive dressage. I have great admiration for the talent and skill of the Ankys of the world but I don't like the resorting to things like Rolkur to win. I also love to watch eventing and jumpers. I admire the guts and the skill. I know that abuse is rampant in all aspects of the horse world. I deplore Rolkur because I idolize world class dressage as the pinnacle of harmony and grace. Rolkur is like the dirty little secret that is no longer in the closet. Still I admit Rolkur is a lot less harmful than many many other abuses in both dressage and other disciplines.

If I was a horse, I would be a pussy horse. I would rather have someone subject me to Rolkur than make me do advanced cross country. I am big into self preservation. The pain of Rolkur would not be so bad as the risk I would break my neck on cross country, personally. Maybe many many horses, especially those who excel at upper level eventing would feel otherwise. Maybe they really love the job and would do it even if they could fully appreciate the risk. Don't know, won't ever know and anthropomorphism really doesn't get us anywhere does it? Humans make the choices for the horses and thus are responsible for the outcome. In this sense Rolkur and eventing crashes are the same.

I know that my perspective and beliefs color my views. I admit my predjudices. I like most everyone who rides, have abused horses. As a child I rode a lame old pony. I hit my pony out of anger and yanked on the pelham rein deliberately. I have asked the horse for a bad spot and caused it to crash. I had difficulty learning to sit the trot and made my horses back quite sore. I jumped a horse in 4 foot classes that had a straight shoulder and upright pasterns and had to run for the distance. He went permanently lame with ringbone at 7. I do admit these things and I do own the guilt.

You can call me a dimwit and I admit I have a ton more to learn. However at least I am open to it.

JSwan
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:30 PM
I guess the jumping thing may be more appropriate in the eventing forum - but I can tell you what I've seen in the hunt field just over the past few seasons..which is xc the old fashioned way.

Less equitation, more bit. I haven't attended any horse trials lately - so I don't know if this is true in eventing as well. But.... eventing isn't hunting so that's not a very good comparison. But it's a lot closer than xc accidents and rollkur.

And the change in format - geez - talk about opening a can of worms....


kkj - I disagree. An accident is not deliberate. And I no longer event or do dressage competitively, so allow me to call myself objective. Eventing is an extreme sport - and certainly at the upper levels - requires a certain type of horse - one that has that extra something. If you think those riders are simply running those animals at fences without consideration for the horses well-being - I'd say you have a pretty poor understanding of the sport.

At the risk of repeating myself - all other horse sports have engaged in self-examination, changed courses, argued over the merits of changing the format, designed break away jumps, formed safety committees that do nothing but focus on the welfare of horses and riders. Heck - even recognized foxhunts have rules and set of ethics - and all they do is hunt.

Dressage has always held itself out to be more noble; better. But it's not. If the movers and shakers are smart - they need to examine what is going on in the warm up ring, the showgrounds and judging and decide what is appropriate. Or you know what? Animal rights groups will do it for them. Do you want to see videos of the warm up rings on 60 Minutes? Tell me what John Q. Public would think. Now tell me how John Q. Public would react if the only defense one could come up with was it's less painful than a fall on the cross country course?

And how can we justify Rollkur by saying - at least I don't jump my horse xc. Uhh.... your logic escapes me. If you have committed abuses in your past and owned up to them - that's great but I don't see how its relevant to this discussion.

bounce
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:30 PM
I've had more than one tell me jumping stadium is just like a dressage test with jumps in it, ride the flat parts with rythem, impulsion and balance, then the jumps take care of themselves.

EXACTLY!!!!

I have also replaced my students reins with fishing line for a jump round... if they pull over the test weight... the line breaks! There is NO jerking going on! Shame on you for stereotyping! :mad:

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:44 PM
Go to the warm up, look at the show ring (how many pix show the horse up and open?). Go to most of the eventing riders barns, I see it daily. They should not follow it, but they do. To the same extent? No, because they still have to jump. And what happens? The horses wear stronger and stronger bits jumping. The only difference is that you can say would you ride like this to a fence and they get the idea of balance.


Most eventers do a lot of stretching, as our horses tend to be TB's who need it to relax their backs. But it's not in a pulled together Rollkur way, it's in a long and low way. It's the way a tense horse relaxes their back, swings, and comes through. And the horse has to be through for a half halt to work. So that means after stretching, the half halt works even better. I would think you would know that.

There is a lot more Rollkur in pure Dressage than in Eventing Dressage.


And what's your point about the bits being stronger? Straight showjumper riders use strong bits too.

I agree that lower level eventers should use a simple bit and train the horse to be responsive and balance from the riders circle of aids. But upper level horses tend to get pretty excited about their jobs on x-c, and when you are talking about running at great SPEED to solid jumps, the rider may need the extra help to rebalance.

Let me see you do your dressage test at 600 meters per minute, and we will see if you have any problems controlling your horse with a snaffle.

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:50 PM
lstevenson, it is not comparing a piano to a tuna fish sandwich. Let's once again simplify it. In both Rolkur and Eventing crashes, the rider puts the horse into an (unnatural) situation which causes it abuse/harm/pain/death/discomfort whatever.



Yes it is! Rollkur is a PLANNED, DELIBARATE ACT!

bigdreamer
Jun. 8, 2006, 02:18 PM
just to throw out there- a horse is more likely to jump an obstacle in its way while running through the wild than it is to tuck its chin to its chest for a long period of time...

bigdreamer
Jun. 8, 2006, 02:20 PM
and if i could, please, have this post commented on...



ok, so, how exactly does one use rk? is it a position that a rider goes in and out of, depending on how the horse feels? for instance if you lost the horses back, do you use it to get it back, and then go back to "normal"? or is it ridden in consistently, no matter how generous the horse is being?


lets say for the time being we are going to use pictures to judge this stuff.


I know with every picture of a horse jumping, there is generally a flaw *somewhere*, i.e. legs not evenly tucked, a shoulder dropped, an improper release... so lets equivelate those "flaws" to the flaws seen in rk- hocks trailing, tense horse, "unhappy" horse, etc. so in the every now and then case that you do see a horse jumping perfectly, where is a picture showing a horse that is perfect and successfully benefiting from rk? that is using itself correctly, that isn't tense, etc. I would like to think that if rk is useful, it should relax the horse, no? This is so I can better understand it's application and results. not so I can go use it, so I can understand it.

kkj
Jun. 8, 2006, 02:44 PM
JSwan I think I have some understanding and appreciation of eventing. I do not think the riders just run the horses at jumps. I know some of the best most skilled riders in the world are event riders. They are fabulous athletes. So of course are the horses at that level. I will not get into the debate about bits and bad riding whatever. Bad riding and good riding are at all levels and all disciplines. Once again lots of abuses too.

I think you guys are either unwilling or unable to accept my point. Eventing is a dangerous sport. Even with the reforms, the precautions, the great interest the riders have in not hurting the horses. It is inherently quite dangerous. Crashes are foreseeable. The horses do it because the rider tells them too. They do not understand the risk. The people I think do. If you choose to event your horse and it crashes, you are culpable. Just as the rider who deliberately hauls on the horses mouth is culpable in Rolkur.

Lstevenson, I never said crashes were deliberate, only that they are foreseeable. People have the responsibility to keep their horses best interests in mind. We are like their parents. If you choose to event your horse, you are agreeing to subject him/her to a significant risk that the horse will have a crash and suffer pain, injury or death. What is exactly significant in this case? I do not know. Anyone know the % of event horses that crash?

I talked about the abuses I have both deliberately and inadvertantly committed to illustrate that all horses people are in fact abusers in some way or another. We tend to forget this and be self righteous (yes I am quite guilty of this myself) and point the finger at others.

slc2
Jun. 8, 2006, 02:55 PM
i get your point and i agree. i also have asked some really top notch eventers, 'how many all out events does a horse have in him?' and i get answers like 'one'. alot. it IS dangerous, and the rider chooses to do it, and the horse is taught to do it, gradually and gently perhaps or not so gradually and gently, it is still dangerous. galloping a horse across open country is just dangerous. the faster you go, the more dangeorus it is. the old saying, 'speed kills', is true. it just is true. talk all you want, argue all you want, have a fit because someone is criticizing a sport you like, it will still be true.

i see the similarity too. say you used a training technique that was proven to put wear and tear on your horse's legs, back and neck. say you used an extreme training technique, and it put MORE wear and tear on your horse. that can be comparable to taking the risk of an accident while galloping cross country. any of the activities may harm the horse.

the training method, the galloping across open country, jumping, all might harm your horse. all have a higher risk than plodding around at a walk. we do these things because we WANT TO. we want to ride. we want to do a or b or c with our horses.

but, the discussion hinges on believing several things: 1. rollkur is more dangerous and more harmful 2. rollkur is done by force 3. rollkur makes horses unhappy 4. rollkur destroys the horses performance in dressage 5. rollkur is different/worse from all the other positioning done in any other riding sport

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 03:30 PM
I think you guys are either unwilling or unable to accept my point. Eventing is a dangerous sport. Even with the reforms, the precautions, the great interest the riders have in not hurting the horses. It is inherently quite dangerous. Crashes are foreseeable. The horses do it because the rider tells them too. They do not understand the risk. The people I think do. If you choose to event your horse and it crashes, you are culpable. Just as the rider who deliberately hauls on the horses mouth is culpable in Rolkur.


Eventing is slightly dangerous for the rider. I say slightly, because that risk greatly diminishes with good skills and knowledge. It is still more dangerous to drive a car on the freeway. On x-c it's just you and the horse, on the freeway you have a million other maniacs out there.

Horses RARELY get injured or killed on x-c. They have a much better chance of getting seriously injured out in the field with thier buddies.

I've been doing it for 25 years, and have never had a horse fall down on x-c.

And anyone who thinks that the horses only do x-c because they are trained to are just showing their ignorance.

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 03:39 PM
i also have asked some really top notch eventers, 'how many all out events does a horse have in him?' and i get answers like 'one'. alot.



:lol: Oh slc, you are so full of %$#* it is actually funny!

Please NAME the top notch eventers you have talked to about this.

"one"? :lol: What about all the horses who have competed in the Olympics past the age of 18? There have been MANY. Including Gold medals. Those horses have done hundreds and hundreds of events in their life. Some have done up to 10 Advanced three days. And usually love every minute of it.

One.:lol:

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 03:47 PM
the training method, the galloping across open country, jumping, all might harm your horse.


Dressage horses get just as many injuries as eventers. They are just different kinds of injuries. Again, the horse is probably more at risk out in the field with a group of horses. I know many people who have had to put a horse down because of a fracture from a kick in the field.

Maybe we should just line all of the horses up and shoot them to avoid the "abuse"?

kkj
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:16 PM
L'stevenson, you think I am ignorant because I assert that a horse would not go out and do a cross country course by itself. Huh? I acknowledge that out in the wild a horse may run and jump an obstacle but it is not going to jump a course for enjoyment.

I am talking about advanced level eventing here with very skilled riders. (as compared to Grand Prix dressage with the Ankys of the world) You think that is only slightly dangerous? You may be right that one is more likely to get killed in a car accident, but if you did an advanced level cross country course as often as you got in your car, I am honestly not sure that you would not get killed on the cross country course first. You just can't compare the two when you do one every day and the other one, even the top riders don't do too often. A horse really only has so many big cross country jumps in it whether it gets injured or not. How many of the top event riders in the world have never crashed or been injured. They are taking a sport to its limit and from what I have been able to gather, most crash at some point or other. You have never crashed cross country. What is the highest level you have done? Either you are very lucky or you have not pushed yourself to the level I am talking about.

I also take issue with that cross country does not cause injuries or only those less in frequency or seriousness than those common in horses out in pasture. I cannot give statistics here but I will bet you the mortality insurance on an advanced level eventer would be a much higher percentage of the value of the horse than that of a grand Prix dressage horse. Eventing at that level is dangerous. I don't think I am saying anything radical in asserting that.

If it was only as dangerous as stadium jumping or dressage, you could sign me up. I got a huge rush doing it and found the people involved in it to be fun, down to earth and just great to be around. I like many people was drawn away from it due to the risk. Crashes happen more frequently than the risk I am willing to assume. Call me stupid, call me a wimp, but I think most people in the horse world are at least as wimpy as I am.

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:27 PM
L'stevenson, you think I am ignorant because I assert that a horse would not go out and do a cross country course by itself. Huh? I acknowledge that out in the wild a horse may run and jump an obstacle but it is not going to jump a course for enjoyment.



Ok, I will extend my invitation to you too. Feel free to come sit on my Advanced horse if you would like to see how much some horses love x-c. And the ones that aren't like mine simply don't make it to the upper levels.

Watch many horses free jumping, they will buck and play and are simply enjoying themselves.

Most x-c horses come off of the course feeling like they are the coolest horse in the world. They love it.

Most, but not all, horses would MUCH rather do x-c than dressage. Does that make dressage cruel? Because horses would NEVER go do a dressage test by themselves.

kkj
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:32 PM
L'stevenson,
So I looked up your name and see you have competed in Advanced level eventing and been in the mix with the best riders. And you have never crashed cross country. I have a lot of respect for your skills. Obviously you know a hell of a lot more about eventing than I do.

You are also not scared off by the risk. More power to you.

I do stand by my assertation that it is a dangerous sport. More dangerous than dressage or show jumping or the likelihood of a horse getting badly hurt or killed in a pasture.

Still I respect you for your talent, skills and guts. I hope you ride for another 25 + years and never crash.

lstevenson
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:40 PM
L'stevenson,
So I looked up your name and see you have competed in Advanced level eventing and been in the mix with the best riders. And you have never crashed cross country. I have a lot of respect for your skills. Obviously you know a hell of a lot more about eventing than I do.

You are also not scared off by the risk. More power to you.

I do stand by my assertation that it is a dangerous sport. More dangerous than dressage or show jumping or the likelihood of a horse getting badly hurt or killed in a pasture.

Still I respect you for your talent, skills and guts. I hope you ride for another 25 + years and never crash.



Thanks! I think you make it an educated risk, by getting the best training and preperation, and of course by choosing smart, athletic horses that love their job. It really does make a difference.

Oh, and I have fallen off on x-c (rider error,of course :lol:), I've just never had a horse fall. Nor ever had a horse injured on x-c.

DressageGuy
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:59 PM
I think we can all accept that eventing is dangerous. The problem with this whole argument that none of the talking heads above seem to realize (admit?) is that while yes, there's some risk in x-c jumping, you're not forcing the horse to do something it can't do naturally. Ever see a horse in a rollkur position out in a field? I haven't, at least not for more than about half a second biting at a fly.

JSwan
Jun. 8, 2006, 05:33 PM
slc2 - you are so full of sh** your eyes are brown. Is there ANY subject you are not an expert on? Over on the UDBB years ago I had to read through your incomprehensible musings on Zen Buddhism and dressage - and now here you are, hobnobbing with certain nameless top level eventers whispering eventings dirty little secrets in your ear over tea and crumpets.

Stupid me - I recently saw Giltedge at the Expo - and somehow - after eventing all these years - he looks and acts like a 2 year old. And somehow - my neighbors mare managed to event AND hunt until her 20's - fit as a fiddle and raring to go. Great dressage, too.

Rollkur does not equal eventing - come on folks - you're really really really grasping at straws here - it's getting deep. What other sport will you point fingers at next? Endurance?

bjrudq
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:37 PM
put her on your "ignore" list. i PROMISE you that your coth experience will improve 100%. you will never have to read about her, or any of her imaginary freinds' expertise again. i highly recommend it.

"Apparently from reading some of the responses, irony has become a lost art form."

apparently from reading the op, irony has become a lost art form.

the op's attempt at humor/sarcasm/irony is pretty lame.

DressageGuy
Jun. 8, 2006, 09:11 PM
My god in heaven, bjrudq and I agree on something. It's a miracle! Hehehe, just playing with you bj, even though we don't agree on much at UDBB, I do respect your opinions.

poopoo
Jun. 8, 2006, 09:31 PM
UDBB?

bigdreamer
Jun. 8, 2006, 09:32 PM
UDBB?

ultimate dressage BB

Beethoven
Jun. 8, 2006, 09:56 PM
What the fruitbat?? Are you serious??

bigdreamer
Jun. 8, 2006, 10:34 PM
and yet again, i will post this... please, someone make some sense to me?


ok, so, how exactly does one use rk? is it a position that a rider goes in and out of, depending on how the horse feels? for instance if you lost the horses back, do you use it to get it back, and then go back to "normal"? or is it ridden in consistently, no matter how generous the horse is being?


lets say for the time being we are going to use pictures to judge this stuff.


I know with every picture of a horse jumping, there is generally a flaw *somewhere*, i.e. legs not evenly tucked, a shoulder dropped, an improper release... so lets equivelate those "flaws" to the flaws seen in rk- hocks trailing, tense horse, "unhappy" horse, etc. so in the every now and then case that you do see a horse jumping perfectly, where is a picture showing a horse that is perfect and successfully benefiting from rk? that is using itself correctly, that isn't tense, etc. I would like to think that if rk is useful, it should relax the horse, no? This is so I can better understand it's application and results. not so I can go use it, so I can understand it.

Velvet
Jun. 8, 2006, 10:49 PM
If this is meant to be a commentary on cruelty to horses, then it's an incredibly passive-agressive approach and someone needs to be slapped. If it's meant to be funny, it sort of misses the mark in most pictures because they are pretty horrific falls for both the horse and the rider.

I think either clarification is need (without comments saying people are just dense), if the author isn't just trying to get a rise out of people and stir an already angry hornets nest out here. If that's their desired goal, you will not see a clarification and must assume that they are getting what they wanted--and you might want to consider not feeding garage gnomes. :lol:

BTW, garage gnomes thrive on ire.

bigdreamer
Jun. 8, 2006, 10:59 PM
but velvet, i hath no ire!
only confusion and want for an explanation- yet no one will give me one after posting the thing 3 times! either i got someone in a corner and they are avoiding it, or they are so busy dealing with the other ire that they are missing their opportunity to talk to someone who actually wants to discuss the matter!


and let me say thanks for teaching me the word ire- well, inspiring me to look it up. I have never used the word before, and today my vocab has extended! something my college professors don't seem to be able to do sometimes! :lol: mucho gracias.

Touchstone Farm
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:05 PM
i get your point and i agree. i also have asked some really top notch eventers, 'how many all out events does a horse have in him?' and i get answers like 'one'. alot.

I thought this quote was as amusing as nhwr's claim that Von Ziegner is and has been a proponent of rolkeur AKA zwangsjacke. Neither would hold water...

philosoraptor
Jun. 9, 2006, 08:25 AM
Thanks to OP. You made my day. :lol:


won't let me join because I hunt. Since I would have to give up shaving my legs and wearing deoderant - I'm ok with it.

What are you hunting that involves shaving the legs and putting on deodorant? :D

nhwr
Jun. 9, 2006, 11:57 AM
The intent of my original post (I can't speak for the whole thread) was to demonstrate that if all you experience about something is pics of bad moments, there might be a tendancy to believe that is all there is. Also there are a lot of unfortunate things that happen in equine sports and the closer you are to a discipline the more there is a tendancy to be myopic.

I did ask a lot of questions that never got answered, though.

lstevenson
Jun. 9, 2006, 12:37 PM
I did ask a lot of questions that never got answered, though.


Like what?

And again, your point about pictures being just bad moments is makes NO sense. Eventing falls don't happen to very many people. There are a ton more good pictures than bad. While EVERY picture taken of Rollkur looks bad. You could stand there watching someone riding Rollkur and take 200 pictures. They would ALL look bad. There are NO GOOD Rollkur pictures.

I'm sorry that's so hard for you to understand.

nhwr
Jun. 9, 2006, 12:50 PM
Like what?
Like;
How is it OK to engage in sport where horses are killed or seriously injured with some frequency?

How can this be justified by the same people who condemn rk (a practice which preliminary research suggests is not painful of stressful to the horse)?

Is it OK to use horse in bullfights? After all, some horses like it, efforts are made to protect the them, not many horses are injured or killed and when they are, it is an accident.

Understanding and agreement are different things, lstevenson, surely you understand that. I understand what you are saying perfectly. I think have said repeatedly that I don't agree with it.

lstevenson
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:15 PM
"How is it OK to engage in sport where horses are killed or seriously injured with some frequency?"

Horses are killed and seriously injured in eventing in no greater frequency than they are out in the field in a group of horses.



"How can this be justified by the same people who condemn rk (a practice which preliminary research suggests is not painful of stressful to the horse)?"

Again, when it does happen, those are accidents, whereas rk is intentional.



"Is it OK to use horse in bullfights? After all, some horses like it, efforts are made to protect the them, not many horses are injured or killed and when they are, it is an accident."

What makes you think some horses like bullfights? I highly doubt it. Now your grasping at straws.



"Understanding and agreement are different things, lstevenson, surely you understand that. I understand what you are saying perfectly. I think have said repeatedly that I don't agree with it."

No, I think it's very clear that you don't understand. What is your response to what I wrote here:

"And again, your point about pictures being just bad moments is makes NO sense. Eventing falls don't happen to very many people. There are a ton more good pictures than bad. While EVERY picture taken of Rollkur looks bad. You could stand there watching someone riding Rollkur and take 200 pictures. They would ALL look bad. There are NO GOOD Rollkur pictures."

MyReality
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:35 PM
Goodness still going on. And all started from some crash shots.

It is meaningless to compare dressage bads with eventing bads, they are two entirely different things. It is like to compare: is competitive swimming more dangerous or mountain bike racing dangerous? is ballet worse than gymnastics? is driving more dangerous than parachuting?

Different disciplines and participants operate on different levels and have their own definition of risk. It is highly highly unlikely you guys will agree. You know the most spetacular 'accident' I've observed was in a polo field, which involves the death of two horses.

BUT you guys definitely could agree, there WILL ALWAYS BE BADS in any fricking discipline. Better get used to it, and stop defending the bad apples in your own discipline just because you participated in it.

You think there are no eventers who push their horses too far, too harshly? Gime a break. I've seen it with my own eyes.

You think there are no dressage rider, rollkur or not, work their horses too much too young, and/or not enough turnout? Of course there are. Seen it with my own eyes too.

Professional competitors are 10 times more aggressive in their sports than the average amatuers. You think professionals always display professionalism, and never resort to short cuts, or always take things slowly and strive to make happy horses? If you happen to know someone like that, he/she isobviousely a gem and you should hold on to her as a trainer or friend. But if you unfortunately know someone not like that, why should you be disappointed or surprised?

Now continue to disagree.

springtyme
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:41 PM
How can this be justified by the same people who condemn rk (a practice which preliminary research suggests is not painful of stressful to the horse)?



Actually, preliminary research is not conclusive and pretty much every vet at the workshop agreed that further studies are needed. They even agreed that in the wrong hands it *could* be damaging, painful, and stressfull.

I'm not really sure how you came to your conclusion, but I guess it goes right along with comparing eventing accidents to rk.

Fallbrook
Jun. 9, 2006, 03:37 PM
I think that little donkey shows amazing suspension - very uphill.

nhwr
Jun. 9, 2006, 04:42 PM
Horses are killed and seriously injured in eventing in no greater frequency than they are out in the field in a group of horses.
Please tell me where you got this infomation.


Again, when it does happen, those are accidents, whereas rk is intentional. To repeat, since this happens with some frequency and it is forseeable I don't really buy the "This is an accident" line of reasoning. It isn't that I don't understand what you are saying, I do. I just think it is a rationalization.


What makes you think some horses like bullfights? I highly doubt it. Now your grasping at straws.
My neighbor is an Andalusian breeder originally from Spain. He swears some do, like certain lines of QHs that "hook" on cattle. But it is anecdotal like your assertions that some horses love cross country despite the risk. It sounds plausible to me.



MyReality, I agree with a lot of what you say. In the comparisons you cite, people choose the risks for themselves. The difference is that as decision makers for the horse, we choose the risk for them.

springtyme, exactly, more information is needed. That is why I emphasized the conclusions were preliminary.

There is always a lot of discussion of responsibility for the horse's welfare in anti rolkur discussion, why not apply the same principle here?

DressageGuy
Jun. 9, 2006, 04:51 PM
So, basically, you can't see the difference between an accident and an intentional disregard for the well-being of a horse? That says a lot. Eventers do not intentionally put their horses in a situation to be injured, they try their hardest to avoid it. Rk'ers OTOH, are deliberately putting their horses in a position that is unnatural and incorrect.

nhwr
Jun. 9, 2006, 04:55 PM
:sigh: Dressage Guy, I understand what you are saying. I don't agree with the premise. There is a difference.

lacy859
Jun. 9, 2006, 05:03 PM
NHWR, what is your thoughts as what horses should do with thier life?

nhwr
Jun. 9, 2006, 05:16 PM
Since this isn't about what horses choose to do with their lives, may be the better question is why we choose to be involved with horses lives.

Personally, I own and ride horses primarily because it brings me pleasure, more than that really, I find interacting with them extremely gratifying.

What about the rest of you?

JSwan
Jun. 9, 2006, 07:34 PM
Since this isn't about what horses choose to do with their lives, may be the better question is why we choose to be involved with horses lives.

Personally, I own and ride horses primarily because it brings me pleasure, more than that really, I find interacting with them extremely gratifying.

What about the rest of you?

I'll hazard to guess that 100% of us find it gratifying as well. But I find your line of reasoning extremely flawed - and seemingly designed to do nothing but pit horseman against horseman - the Anaconda policy - but you're not succeeding. This thread is about as exciting as Dialogue of the Carmelites - one of the most boring operas I've ever seen. Yawn....perhaps you might have a more robust response if you posted this on the eventing forum. I triple dog dare you.

claire
Jun. 9, 2006, 09:19 PM
Velvet put it best. Let the thread go and nhwr can argue/pot-stir with herself! :yes:



If this is meant to be a commentary on cruelty to horses, then it's an incredibly passive-agressive approach and someone needs to be slapped. If it's meant to be funny, it sort of misses the mark in most pictures because they are pretty horrific falls for both the horse and the rider.

I think either clarification is need (without comments saying people are just dense), if the author isn't just trying to get a rise out of people and stir an already angry hornets nest out here. If that's their desired goal, you will not see a clarification and must assume that they are getting what they wanted--and you might want to consider not feeding garage gnomes. :lol:

BTW, garage gnomes thrive on ire.

Daventry
Jun. 9, 2006, 10:35 PM
Oh I see this topic ending badly! :no:

springtyme
Jun. 9, 2006, 10:43 PM
Oh I see this topic ending badly! :no:


Ending badly? I thought it started badly!

lstevenson
Jun. 9, 2006, 11:08 PM
Ending badly? I thought it started badly!


:lol: You got that right!

lstevenson
Jun. 9, 2006, 11:12 PM
So, basically, you can't see the difference between an accident and an intentional disregard for the well-being of a horse? That says a lot. Eventers do not intentionally put their horses in a situation to be injured, they try their hardest to avoid it. Rk'ers OTOH, are deliberately putting their horses in a position that is unnatural and incorrect.



:yes: It certainly does say a lot. I can't say I have had a lot of respect for anything the OP had to say before, but now I have none.

DressageGuy
Jun. 9, 2006, 11:19 PM
Yup. :)

sunridge1
Jun. 10, 2006, 12:38 AM
Jeez people. There are abuses in all disciplines. Get over it. You may choose to participate in it or not.. My horse has his ears back in many photo's. He also does what you call Rolkur but can do it himself, (no double bridle,no caveson and no mouth gaping open) because he's that supple, with his ears up. Maybe the dressage people should start using a breed that can do Rolkur without such force. Then would it be deemed abuse? Owning horses has it's inherent risks. And all of you no matter what discipline have the choice in how far you are willing to go to get the desired end. People have choices, horses don't. Sometimes my horse walks away from me maybe I should never ride again. Thank God they are leaving the gaited community alone for awhile. BTW I no longer compete in anything, it's too abusive.:yes: :lol:

CdnRider
Jun. 10, 2006, 12:57 AM
I'm not sure if I should enter this arena ---

However I just want to say that any horse at any upper level of sport to some extent *wants* to be there. I can't comment on rollkur as this is not a concept I know much about, but horses in their respective sports needs to have not only the right training but also the proper mindset and athleticsm.

I really don't think we should compare sports at all. No matter what we do most people take exceptional care of their horses, the price they pay is work, whether it is doing tempis or jumping logs. I mean the alternate-wild horses-are wormy, licey, skinny and you know what they don't live to be 20 let alone older.

justjay
Jun. 10, 2006, 09:13 AM
Like;
How is it OK to engage in sport where horses are killed or seriously injured with some frequency?

is it ok to have horses race then? is it ok to turn your horse out in a herd?
if it is, its the same thing. eventers dont go out of the xcountry start box thinking, ok i think i am going to crash at jump 5. it isn't planned, it isn't intentional, and its a horribe ACCIDENT

How can this be justified by the same people who condemn rk (a practice which preliminary research suggests is not painful of stressful to the horse)?

people on this board are not condemming rk right now, they are condemming your comparison of rk to eventing. and what they are condemming is the fact that you can NOT compare and accident to a planned training method
its like comparing apples and oranges and it cant be done

Understanding and agreement are different things, lstevenson, surely you understand that. I understand what you are saying perfectly. I think have said repeatedly that I don't agree with it

yes, understanding and agreeing are two different things. however, in this case where you are comparing two unlike things you are giving the impression that a cross country fall is not an accident. if you ask any upper level eventer, any one who competes in the sport they will tell you that it happens, and it is a sad and unfortunate accident

poopoo
Jun. 10, 2006, 12:42 PM
"Eventing is slightly dangerous for the rider. I say slightly, because that risk greatly diminishes with good skills and knowledge. "
What world do you live in? Why don't you ask Amanda Warrington how good her skills were, or that Polly who died at Badminton last year, or Steven Bradley when he broke his back at Rolex in the 80's, or Buck when he got taken to the hospital when he did a header into the ground in England this year, or Bruce when he crushed his pelvis in England and had to be medivaced back to the U.S., or Sharon White and Jane Sleeper in body casts from crushed pelvises, or Claire Smith from the Canadian team with the spinal who just disappeared from the competition scene, not to mention the numerous concussions, collar bone, shoulder blade, arm and leg breaks that go unnoticed, accepted as commonplace in the skilled, knowlegeable, upper level riders? This is considered an "extreme sport" that is dangerous to the riders and the horses, a risk riders accept for themselves and for their horses, whether it is right or wrong. Don't kid yourself. The fences don't break, they're solid - the riders and horses do. No, this doesn't make Rollkur correct either, but let's at least be honest about the inherent risks of eventing.
"Horses RARELY get injured or killed on x-c. " Again, another delusion - do you need a list of names? This happens every year. The choice riders make to run their horses is one which comes with consequences for errors - that's just the way it is.... a choice you play the odds with. It's always a gamble, all riding always is, eventing just has different odds, and it's known what can happen, just blocked out mentally in order to do the sport! And again, that doesn't make Rollkur right either....

Arcadien
Jun. 10, 2006, 02:43 PM
Just passing thru, but my thoughts on this:

Most young, healthy, people socialized horses prefer to have a job. Not every horse job is right for every horse.

But when you find the right job for a horse, and introduce it to the skills needed to do it in a fair & gradual way, you feed it and give it supportive care needed to stay healthy & sound in this job, you're careful to back up if the horse shows confusion or pain, and you give the horse plenty of time off to rest, play, & "be a horse" between work -

Then that horse truly enjoys its job - any job, any level, as long as it's the right job for that horse, and all the above is taken care of. And that horse would rather have a job than be left in a paddock all day every day.

I've seen examples of happy working horses in every discipline. Also unhappy horses when one or more points above weren't being taken care of, also in every discipline.

At the moment I have fields full of TB's, and carrying me at a gallop across fields and leaping over things in the way is what they thrill to do. I've brought them each carefully to the point where they are comfortable & happy & they love to do it for me.

If you've never seen or felt pure joy in a working horse, well... refer back to paragraph three! ;)

Arcadien

BoysNightOut
Jun. 10, 2006, 03:06 PM
"How is it OK to engage in sport where horses are killed or seriously injured with some frequency?"

Any equestrian sport brings with it risks and frequencies of injuries or death. Race horses break down all the time, show jumpers legs can be seriously hurt with 1 bad landing, dressage horses can take 1 mistep during a test and tear a muscle, etc etc. Life itself is full of risks, the world isn't bubble wrapped for everybodies protection. I also disagree with the comment made about making horses run a x-country course. Horses weigh over 1,000lbs and have minds of their owns....I doubt anybody could make a horse jump a x-country course if he didn't want to.....esp. at the highest levels.

Yes, we as riders take risks into consideration for all riding sports. Sign up for simple beginner lessons at any barn and I bet you have to sign a liability form stating that riding is a sport done at your own risk. A 25 y/o swaybacked lesson pony could spook at something, bolt, and crash thru a fence and break his leg. What I am saying is there are risks, injuries, and incidents of a horse being killed for any riding sport....if it's cruel to partake in a riding sport with serious risks, than nobody should be riding horses at all.

Also, crashes on a x-country course are accidents that aren't always forseeable....riders walk the courses 2-3 times before they ride it...to BE PREPARED and avoid them at all costs the best they can.

lstevenson
Jun. 10, 2006, 03:20 PM
"Eventing is slightly dangerous for the rider. I say slightly, because that risk greatly diminishes with good skills and knowledge. "
What world do you live in? Why don't you ask Amanda Warrington how good her skills were, or that Polly who died at Badminton last year, or Steven Bradley when he broke his back at Rolex in the 80's, or Buck when he got taken to the hospital when he did a header into the ground in England this year, or Bruce when he crushed his pelvis in England and had to be medivaced back to the U.S., or Sharon White and Jane Sleeper in body casts from crushed pelvises, or Claire Smith from the Canadian team with the spinal who just disappeared from the competition scene, not to mention the numerous concussions, collar bone, shoulder blade, arm and leg breaks that go unnoticed, accepted as commonplace in the skilled, knowlegeable, upper level riders? This is considered an "extreme sport" that is dangerous to the riders and the horses, a risk riders accept for themselves and for their horses, whether it is right or wrong. Don't kid yourself. The fences don't break, they're solid - the riders and horses do. No, this doesn't make Rollkur correct either, but let's at least be honest about the inherent risks of eventing.
"Horses RARELY get injured or killed on x-c. " Again, another delusion - do you need a list of names? This happens every year. The choice riders make to run their horses is one which comes with consequences for errors - that's just the way it is.... a choice you play the odds with. It's always a gamble, all riding always is, eventing just has different odds, and it's known what can happen, just blocked out mentally in order to do the sport! And again, that doesn't make Rollkur right either....



Thanks for the update.:rolleyes: I am very aware of the accidents these riders have had, as I know most of these people personally and have competed at the Advanced level myself.

I think if you would ask any of them, they would say that they feel they are still more likely to be seriously injured or killed in a car accident. I know Bruce Davidson (who has had more injuries than anyone else) and Ginny Leng were actually quoted as saying such.

And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world. Do you have any idea how many horses are killed in pasture accidents every day?

JSwan
Jun. 10, 2006, 04:17 PM
Well - I haven't competed at the Advanced level - nor will I ever - but I think the folks who think eventing is so bad need to bring that discussion over onto the eventing forum. Or if you really want to get ugly - go tell foxhunters how abusive they are. There is no course walking in foxhunting.

But please - don't tell me my horse is somehow mistreated by foxhunting - he finally found his niche and is happier than a pig in sh** in the hunt field - so much that if I move the trailer, or get this - listen to a tape of horn calls while washing the truck - the horse gallops to the gate and whinnies.

Let's just pigeonhole every sport to divert us from discussing a controversial training method in dressage. Acknowledging that Rollkur is abusive but justifying it by saying that it isn't as bad as other abuses committed by other horseman - abuses already punishable - is ridiculous.

Like I've said before - dressage has always held itself out to be the most noble of the equestian arts - and always "better" because of its emphasis on harmony, balance, and relaxation - and the partnership between horse and rider.

But that's not exactly true now is it? Other sports have developed rules that penalized riders for inappropriate "training" methods, or taking extreme advantage in order to win - and yet - dressage went placidly along - being noble and "better".

Now Rollkur gains in popularity and all of a sudden dressage is squirming under the microscope a bit and scrambling for justification by frantically searching for obscure quotes from long-dead masters who cannot put them into context.

I'm not buying it. And shame on the people who consider Rollkur correct. It's about as correct as poling with a nail studded rail. Yep - those legs will come off the ground and that horse will win - but at what cost....

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 10, 2006, 05:11 PM
And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world.

I do not think that is very accurate either. I am an eventing fan, but I think Poopoo (what an amazing name!) has a pretty fair assessment of the risks.

http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?id=227

It is true that amateurs are 20 times more likely to fall than professionals.

A retrospective case-control study of horse falls in the sport of horse trials and three-day eventing.
- Singer ER, Saxby F, French NP. Equine Vet J 2003; 35(2): 139-145.

Correspondence: E.R. Singer, Division of Equine Studies, University of Liverpool, Leahurst, Chester High Road, Neston, South Wirral CH64 7TE, UK; (email: unavailable).

(Copyright © 2003, Equine Veterinary Journal, Ltd.)
OBJECTIVES: Serious injuries to horses and riders in horse trials (HT) and three-day events (3DE) are usually associated with falls of horses, which invariably involve falls of the riders. Many potential causes for these falls have been discussed. OBJECTIVES: The aim of this case-control study was to investigate the risk factors for horse falls on the cross-country phase of horse trials and three-day events.

METHODS: Using retrospective data, significant risk factors identified with unvariable analysis (P value <0.2) were entered into a multivariable logistic regression model. Significant risk factors (P value <0.05) were included in the final model.

FINDINGS: It was revealed that a number of course, obstacle and rider variables were significantly and independently associated with the risk of falling. Falling was associated with obstacles sited downhill (Odds ratio [OR] 8.41) and with obstacles with ditches in front (OR = 5.77).

DISCUSSION: The relationship between course variables and the risk of falling was characterised and showed a significantly increased risk with increasing numbers of jumps on the course and for jumping efforts later in the course. In contrast, after allowing for the total number of obstacles on the course, an increase in the total number of jumping efforts appeared to have a protective effect. A later cross-country start time was associated with a decreased risk of a horse fall. Amateur event riders were approximately 20 times more likely to fall than professional riders.

POTENTIAL CLINICAL RELEVANCE: This study has identified a number of risk factors associated with horse falls and highlights areas that can be altered to improve safety in cross-country competitions.

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poopoo
Jun. 10, 2006, 05:47 PM
[QUOTE=Kathy Johnson]I do not think that is very accurate either. I am an eventing fan, but I think Poopoo (what an amazing name!) has a pretty fair assessment of the risks. - You like that name, do you? Ha-ha-ha.

"Thanks for the update."- so I guess you realize your error in your statistics then?
"I know Bruce Davidson (who has had more injuries than anyone else) ...." - yup, because he's been doing it the longest and has played the numbers the most....

"And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world. " - ???????? I don't think we want to go there. I'm not making a judgement about whether it's right or wrong to event a horse, if you go there, we shouldn't EVEN be riding them..... but, at least be honest about the risks to the horse. Lots of things are risky to the horse - look at how many horses actually finish the Maryland Hunt Cup. What was it, 2 this year? Would I run a horse in the hunt cup if I think he had a chance? Yes, I probably would. If you do these things you have agreed to the risks, right or wrong. Personally, I'd rather have 15 minutes of exciting than a lifetime of boring.... but that's individual choice.

"Let's just pigeonhole every sport to divert us from discussing a controversial training method in dressage. Acknowledging that Rollkur is abusive but justifying it by saying that it isn't as bad as other abuses committed by other horseman - abuses already punishable - is ridiculous." - Yes, VERY good point. So what is the purpose of Rollkur, anyway? There are probably nicer ways to get the same thing done...

perpetual_novice
Jun. 10, 2006, 06:07 PM
"Eventing is slightly dangerous for the rider. I say slightly, because that risk greatly diminishes with good skills and knowledge. "

What world do you live in? Why don't you ask Amanda Warrington how good her skills were, or that Polly who died at Badminton last year, or Steven Bradley when he broke his back at Rolex in the 80's, or Buck when he got taken to the hospital when he did a header into the ground in England this year, or Bruce when he crushed his pelvis in England and had to be medivaced back to the U.S., or Sharon White and Jane Sleeper in body casts from crushed pelvises, or Claire Smith from the Canadian team with the spinal who just disappeared from the competition scene....

This article updates what happened to Claire Smith after her accident. It starts on page 3.

http://www.obia.on.ca/review/vol10-1.pdf

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 10, 2006, 06:29 PM
That was a lovely and inspiring story. (See, good things sometimes come out of heated threads) Thanks!

bjrudq
Jun. 10, 2006, 11:13 PM
what on earth does eventing have to do with rollkur???

eventers don't claim that the sport is safe.

but rollkurers claim that rollkur is.

jumping is risky, and can be abusive with poorly trained riders and horses, overly ambitious riders, etc. a few eventers can be deliberately cruel to horses on occasion, or inadvertantly harmful to horses, due to incompetence or ambition.

rollkur, otoh, is always done intentionally.

and i am sick of hearing that only the top riders can safely use rollkur. sjef himself has stated somethng to the effect that it does not take a genius:

"One of the stupider things people say about your system is that to ride deep and round you have to be some sort of genius - that the conventional outline is somehow much easier, when really I think a less good rider can do less damage to the horse in the deep round outline....
"I think the conventional system of riding the horse up there, and precisely on the bit, causes way more problems than what we do. What we do is solve the problems. I think it would make life a lot easier for a lot of riders if they would work with the system we have, because it makes everything very simple - the horse feels better, there are less injuries, they go more over the back, they are happy using their muscles much better - you don't need force any more. Little ladies with no power are able to ride big strong horses..."

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 12:38 AM
["Thanks for the update."- so I guess you realize your error in your statistics then?



No, I was being sarchastic :lol:

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 12:47 AM
"And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world. " - ???????? I don't think we want to go there.


Yep. And I stand by the statement. If you think horses are killed all the time, name them. It seems to go in waves, I know 3 died this year, and before that there were a few years where none died. 5 or 6 years ago, 2 died, and then none for quite a while. And by the way alot of these deaths are not accidents on x-c (falls), but from aortic ruptures and the like which could have also happened to that horse if they were running around in the field.

Again, I know many, many more people who have lost a horse due to pasture injury.

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 12:50 AM
poopoo-

Are you an alter of either nhwr or slc?:lol:

Sannois
Jun. 11, 2006, 07:27 AM
poopoo-

Are you an alter of either nhwr or slc?:lol:
You may be on to something there!!! :winkgrin: :yes:

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 11, 2006, 08:05 AM
"And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world. " - ???????? I don't think we want to go there.


Yep. And I stand by the statement. If you think horses are killed all the time, name them
http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?id=227

See the link above

Caroline Weber
Jun. 11, 2006, 08:21 AM
"And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world. " - ???????? I don't think we want to go there.


http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?id=227

See the link above

I would tend to agree with lstevenston. Deaths on course tend to come as waves - some years 4 horses will die, the next year no horses will die. Another thing that MUST be looked at in relation to horse's deaths: cause.

A lot more horses die on course due to aneurysms or heart attacks than because of an accident on course. A lot of the time it looks as if it is an accident - in many cases, a horse that dies on course may have an aneurysm right before a jump and will end up crashing into the fence due to momentum. This has happened in at least a few fairly well-known (in the eventing world) cases.

You need to further research cause of death before generalizing about deaths on course - a death from an accident at a fence is FAR different than a non-associated medical crisis.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 11, 2006, 08:39 AM
Hi Caroline,

Did you read the study I posted above?

Correspondence: E.R. Singer, Division of Equine Studies, University of Liverpool, Leahurst, Chester High Road, Neston, South Wirral CH64 7TE, UK; (email: unavailable).

(Copyright © 2003, Equine Veterinary Journal, Ltd.)
OBJECTIVES: Serious injuries to horses and riders in horse trials (HT) and three-day events (3DE) are usually associated with falls of horses, which invariably involve falls of the riders. Many potential causes for these falls have been discussed. OBJECTIVES: The aim of this case-control study was to investigate the risk factors for horse falls on the cross-country phase of horse trials and three-day events.

Why does it matter whether the fall is caused by an aneurism or a bad spot? A crash is a crash. I don't see dressage horses dropping of aneurisms in the arena. In your reseach, what contributing factor led to the high incidence of aneurisms or heart attacks causing horses to fall at cross country fences? I would suspect it is tired horses being pushed too hard too fast at obstacles that don't give.

Don't get me wrong. I love eventing. I coach eventers. I am merely arguing the point someone made that one horse dies every few years and few riders are injured. I suspect that some people who event need to be able to deny that eventing is very dangerous in order to continue doing it. That is their right, but I think it may mislead some of the more novice readers/riders.

I believe the reason the accidents come in waves is simply a matter of the odds, although there are some courses that are notoriously dangerous for horses and riders (often shows that put the lower levels at their max height).

What is great about the eventing community is they openly acknowledge the accidents (those deaths were reported on the US eventing website). They really try to make reforms, which can only be done if there is no denial.

I am not saying eventing is like rollkur. For me, neither rollkur nor eventing is abuse. I consider rollkur to be a kind of benign neglect of the principles and standards of dressage. I consider eventing to be a very exciting and dangerous sport, where people take their chances with their lives and their horse's lives.

Tnavas
Jun. 11, 2006, 09:07 AM
Oh the poor Donkey!... I wonder if he's is called Pegasus?.........:)

Caroline Weber
Jun. 11, 2006, 09:34 AM
Yes, I did read the study, and the "problem" fences that were cited do tend to be the fences at which most accidents occur. I am not denying the dangers of eventing, and yes, some accidents do occur because of recklessness or pushing the horse beyond his or her limits, but I still believe that some crashes are simply due to inopportune medical crises. For example, earlier this year, a horse died at an Advanced level event. I am sorry to say that I cannot remember at the moment who the horse was or who was riding, but I do recall that the horse had either a heart attack or an aneurysm immediately before a fence and crashed into it quite hard. If I remember correctly, the examining vet did not believe that it was due to overexertion.

As for aneurysms and heart attacks: do they always occur because of overexertion? NO. Quite a few heart attacks occur while a person is standing around in their living room. While I have not personally done any research to support my opinion, my opinion is based on what I have observed throughout my life.

I also believe that more equine injuries take place in the field than while a horse is in work. Take a look around the bulletin board: it is likely that more people are asking for jingles for a pasture-injured horse than a horse that was injured during work. For example, when I was younger, my mother's mare dropped dead of a brain aneurysm in the field. Recently, my sister's mare tore a collateral ligament while turned out. A horse can easily take a misstep and do quite a bit of damage, or be kicked, or even just be a victim of a freak accident. A fairly well-known stallion recently ran into a tree and died while turned out.

It would be interesting to have a trauma vet weigh in on this discussion.

bjrudq
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:06 AM
"I also believe that more equine injuries take place in the field than while a horse is in work."

many horses spend MUCH MORE time in a field. you need to adjust and compare the time spent on a x-country course to time spent in a field in order to make any kind of meaningful statistical comparison.

plus, many MORE horses spend time in fields as compared to the number of horses who event. you would need to adjust for that, too.

turn out injures can have many variables-is the pasture safe? is the herd well integrated? do the horses have adequate food, shelter, water?

we all know of horses who have sustained mysterious injuries during turnout for which there seems to be no explanation. but there are also horses turned out in unsafe pastures, with unfamiliar companions, etc.

you really can't compare sports injuries to turnout injuries, except to say that sometimes the careless get lucky and sometimes the careful get hurt anyway.

and you really can't compare rollkur to eventing injuries or being turned out, becasue rollkur is intentional.

Caroline Weber
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:26 AM
Personally, I am NOT comparing ANYTHING to rollkur. I think that the eventing injuries v. Zwangsjacke comparison is absolutely absurd, as zwangsjacke is intentional, while accidents are not (as you and many others have said).

And yes, your point of comparing the time spent working to that spent in turnout is an excellent one. I wasn't really trying to compare injuries while riding to those in turnout (although yes, it did sound like that, but it was not my intent) - I was simply trying to point out that eventing does NOT kill as many horses as some people believe it does. On the other hand, more horses DO get injured in turnout. Because we don't ride our horses twelve hours a day, perhaps it is more of a lower risk/longer exposure vs. higher risk/shorter exposure kind of thing.


I'm rambling...just sort of thinking out loud, I suppose.

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:32 AM
"And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world. " - ???????? I don't think we want to go there.


http://www.useventing.com/competitions.php?id=227

See the link above


I'm aware of those, thanks. Those are 2 of the 3 I said happened this year. And one of those was reported to be that the horse died before he took off for the jump, hence the fall. Probably heart attack or ruptured aorta. And I really don't think you can blame a congenital health problem on x-c. It was probably going to happen anyway.

My point is that while eventing is slightly dangerous, if you look at the total number of horses and riders competing to the number of deaths or serious injuries, it's really not much more dangerous than any other sport we do with horses.

To the person who said that horses get injured more in the pasture because they spend more time in the pasture, SO many more horses get injured, and killed (or put down) from pasture injuries, that proportionally they are still comparable. Like many thousands a day around the world as compared to the average of one a year.

And to the poster who said that horses don't die of heart attacks or aneurysms while doing dressage, that's absolutely not true. I personally have known 2 horses that died of an aneurysm while riders were doing dressage/ flatwork.

nhwr
Jun. 11, 2006, 12:05 PM
lstevenson says

And as far as horses being killed on x-c, it happens maybe once every couple years throughout the world.
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/391/63427.html

So, it looks like more than one horse every couple of years.

The point some posters make about the number of horses in pasture is an excellent one. There are literally millions of horses in pasture.There are not so many eventing horses. To make a valid comparison, you'd have to compare percentages (incidence per hundred horses). I couldn't find any data on that. But the same statement could probably be made about car accidents.

But with regard to humans, I found this http://depts.washington.edu/hiprc/practices/topic/recreation/equestrian.html
Their study conducted from 1992 to 1997 occurred over 54 days of cross country (prenovice to advanced) and included 16,940 riders. There were 193 injuries and 2 fatalities. They found the injury rate to be 1.1%. Another study (Whitlock MR. Injuries to riders in cross country phase of eventing: the importance of protective equipment. Br J Sport Med, 1999; 33 (3): 212-214.) found the injury rate to be as high as 4.3%. One of the conclusions of the first study,"Eventing is one of the most dangerous equestrian activities."


Here is an interesting article too.

http://www.collegian.com/media/storage/paper864/news/2000/09/28/449546/Csu-Equine.Sciences.Director.Comes.Back.From.Down.Unde r-1695623.shtml?norewrite200606111124&sourcedomain=www.collegian.com (http://www.collegian.com/media/storage/paper864/news/2000/09/28/449546/Csu-Equine.Sciences.Director.Comes.Back.From.Down.Unde r-1695623.shtml?norewrite200606111124&sourcedomain=www.collegian.com)

I found it kind of disturbing that a horse with a fractured splint (though treated) would be returned to competition.

A telling statement "McIlwraith says competitive "eventing" is under considerable fire right now because of the large number of human and equine fatalities." (emphasis is mine)

To me this means that equine fatalities are a recognized and accepted fact in the sport.

Caroline Weber
Jun. 11, 2006, 12:10 PM
To me this means that equine fatalities are a recognized and accepted fact in the sport.

Injuries and fatalities can occur in any sport. At least we recognize that they occur and constantly work to make it safer, unlike some.

sm
Jun. 11, 2006, 12:14 PM
Any numbers on horses that die of colic per year? That's abuse.

What is your point to this thread nhwr, what (if any) point are you trying to make? A while back I mentioned topics on EVENTING might better be answered on the Eventing Forum. A while back I mentioned Denny Emerson, who visits from time to time there, may have a few really good answers for you.

What is your point to this thread nhwr?

Tnavas
Jun. 11, 2006, 03:31 PM
I personally am more concerned at the number of obviously unfit horses one sees competing at Pony Club events (Note Pony Club run the majority of unafilliated eventing here in NZ).

Many years ago the owner of the yard I kept my horse at lost her only child in a Cross Country competition, the pony fell and crushed her. The teenager had already competed in an earlier cross country class on the pony and the pony was tired, made a mistake and flipped.

ACC runs the accident prevention in NZ and a report from them noted that more riders were injured or killed when in walk, as they tend to reduce their level of concentration. One pupil of mine was with her mother walking around the paddock, her mothers horse tripped and fell crushing her. The same child later broke her leg when her and a friend were enjoying an icecream walking back from Pony Club - a duck flew up out of the water-race.

Every year people are killed in cars either as a result of their careless driving or as the result of some other idiot on the road. Yet we still drive.

In general we only here of deaths of competition horses and riders. It happens everywhere in all walks of life. I remember the day we found Emma a horse dead in her box, she certainly didn't have a strenuous life and she was only 8yrs old.

If people wormed their horses properly from day one then many aneurisms would not occur, red worm being the leading cause of horse aneurism.

I personally take great care that my horses are kept well, are fit for the work they are to do and are looked after when injury happens. Generally from larking about in the paddock!

bjrudq
Jun. 11, 2006, 03:43 PM
what is red worm, and how is it prevented?

Tnavas
Jun. 11, 2006, 03:55 PM
Small & Large Strongyles - known as red worm as they spend most of their time in the blood stream.

Worm with any of the 'Mectin' based wormers. Such as Ivermectin, Abermectin or the one that begins with an 'M'.

BoysNightOut
Jun. 11, 2006, 04:16 PM
"I found it kind of disturbing that a horse with a fractured splint (though treated) would be returned to competition."

Yeah, and do you know how many racehorses return to racing after bowed tendons, fractures, and other injuries that are much worse. Why aren't you placing them under fire?


"To me this means that equine fatalities are a recognized and accepted fact in the sport."

Honestly, I don't see your point other than to bash eventing. As I stated before, ALL riding sports carries risks with it...racing, eventing, dressage, reining, etc etc. To point one out specifically and say "how can people train this way" is obsurd. People aren't "training their horses" to have them fall on them in x-country, they are accidents. As others have said, horses can get killed running in their own paddocks. Heck, my horse has been laid up for 5 months b/c he was running around like an idiot outside, not because of riding.

I won't even touch the topic of Rollkur, which IS a training method. Now that's something I would say "How can people train horses this way? It's abusive".

Caroline Weber
Jun. 11, 2006, 04:49 PM
Worm with any of the 'Mectin' based wormers. Such as Ivermectin, Abermectin or the one that begins with an 'M'.

That would be moxydectin. You have to be more careful with moxydectin than with ivermectin, though.

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 09:44 PM
They found the injury rate to be 1.1%.



Well that's a pretty low number. Whew, makes me feel even better about my crazy, dangerous sport.

HXF
Jun. 11, 2006, 09:47 PM
That's one out of 100:eek:

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:01 PM
And that percentage would be higher for pasture injuries, no doubt. And that's a very objective way of comparing the two.

nhwr
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:03 PM
lstevenson, I can see that you aren't really used to analysis, so let me explain it to you.
They found the rate of injury to be 1.1% in their study. They make no representation of what the injury rate is globally. As HXF rightly points out that is one in a hundred (slightly more actually). This study references another study that finds the rate to be 4.3%. That is more than 1 in 25. And they do represent eventing to be one of the most dangerous equestrian activities, despite what you have to say about it.

To make valid comparison between eventing and pasture injuries (which people are not usually involved in) you have to consider the amount of time spent in each activity as well.

HXF
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:06 PM
If I had an injury every hundred times I turned my horse out to pasture...:confused:

bigdreamer
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:17 PM
so one in every 100 horses dies on XC???

so... every time i go to the KHP and there are 400+ competitors, 4 of them should die? Funny, I've been to many many events over the past 8 years, and have only heard of one where a horse died (at a 4*)... This includes all levels, BN-A...

I find that statistic hard to believe, or maybe in area 8 we are just safer? lol.

HXF
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:24 PM
so one in every 100 horses dies on XC???



I believe that was an injury rate, not a mortality rate.

bigdreamer
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:30 PM
ok, my bad.
i also noticed, after rereading, that is for RIDER injuries, not horses.

justjay
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:34 PM
just for the record, noone said that eventing was 100% safe
then again, noone said that turning my horse out was 100% safe either
all sports have their ups and downs, what we are trying to say is that you can not compare an accidental fall to a training method! horses dont make their horses fall because it is a training method, but you use rk as a training method
accidents and training methods are NOT comparable! they have no similarities and its unfair to say that they do
and about the picture of the carrot stretch- people do these every day! there was an article on carrot stretches in practical horsemen and tons of people use them. those can not be called abuse in anyway, just as eventing can't

HXF
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:36 PM
My bad too - I read it as horse injuries. That's an incredible stat though - I had no idea it was that high.

bigdreamer
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:43 PM
lstevenson says

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/391/63427.html

But with regard to humans, I found this http://depts.washington.edu/hiprc/practices/topic/recreation/equestrian.html
Their study conducted from 1992 to 1997 occurred over 54 days of cross country (prenovice to advanced) and included 16,940 riders. There were 193 injuries and 2 fatalities. They found the injury rate to be 1.1%. Another study (Whitlock MR. Injuries to riders in cross country phase of eventing: the importance of protective equipment. Br J Sport Med, 1999; 33 (3): 212-214.) found the injury rate to be as high as 4.3%. One of the conclusions of the first study,"Eventing is one of the most dangerous equestrian activities."


Here is an interesting article too.

http://www.collegian.com/media/storage/paper864/news/2000/09/28/449546/Csu-Equine.Sciences.Director.Comes.Back.From.Down.Unde r-1695623.shtml?norewrite200606111124&sourcedomain=www.collegian.com (http://www.collegian.com/media/storage/paper864/news/2000/09/28/449546/Csu-Equine.Sciences.Director.Comes.Back.From.Down.Unde r-1695623.shtml?norewrite200606111124&sourcedomain=www.collegian.com)

interesting articles- thank you for taking the time to find them

however, i do want to point out, that one fatality was a heart attack b/t jumps.

the one about the vet at the olympics is interesting, too. It's nice to see that we aren't drugging up our horses to compete. I wonder what caused the injuries that caused those 3 horses to not compete before they even got to athens.

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:03 PM
My bad too - I read it as horse injuries. That's an incredible stat though - I had no idea it was that high.


We could be talking about things as little as a jammed finger from an akward jump (no fall involved). And that number is probably not much different than most other horse sports.

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:06 PM
They found the rate of injury to be 1.1% in their study. They make no representation of what the injury rate is globally.


Ahh... so the number might actually be a lot lower globally. One study, or even a few is not conclusive anyway.

HXF
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:12 PM
We could be talking about things as little as a jammed finger from an akward jump (no fall involved). And that number is probably not much different than most other horse sports.

How do you know?

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:14 PM
And they do represent eventing to be one of the most dangerous equestrian activities, despite what you have to say about it.



Compared to pony rides and armchair wannabes such as a few well known COTH BB members, yes. :D

It is on par with or only slightly more dangerous than trail riding, hunter/jumper, endurance, and barrel racing. Definately less so than steeplechasing, timber racing, and flat racing.

lstevenson
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:15 PM
How do you know?

Because the study just said "injuries". That could mean anything a rider might have checked out by a professional.

HXF
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:35 PM
And that number is probably not much different than most other horse sports.

Where are your stats to prove this?

lstevenson
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:01 AM
Where are your stats to prove this?


Just 25+ years experience in the horse industry. What I've seen.

Way back in the 80's I think it was Capt. Edgar Video, now Rocking Stud Video who was sick of people saying eventing was too dangerous, so they put together a very long video of all kinds of falls from other disciplines. They remarked how easy it was to come up with all of the footage for the video. Falls and accidents happen in every discipline.

lstevenson
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:05 AM
And we certainly have gone off track in this thread. We WERE talking about so called "abuse". Not the statistical probability of accidental injury for a particular activity.

Sannois
Jun. 12, 2006, 06:47 AM
I commend you for trying to reason with these folks! I fear it is a total waste of your time. All this still does not compare to Rollkur. And there diversion of trying to make other sports look bad as well, is quite comical.
They cant get enough folks to agree with them, so they are trying to shift the focus on Eventing. Rollkur is marring the face of Dressage, The fact that they so adamantly argue that it is just fine, and the big names do it .. well. I still stand behind my original question.. How can those folks justify that kind of force and ugliness in a sport that was know for Harmony between horse and rider. Most of us know the answer, its all about what the judges want to see. ie the ribbons and medals. Well if thats what it takes to get the Ribbons, UGH! What my Dressage trainer said. It is the judges fault, They know what is going on, they are rewarding the results in the ring. :eek: And for the record she is an s Judge!

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 12, 2006, 07:50 AM
Cases were selected from hospital records if the rider required medical assistance and was considered unfit to continue riding that day.

I don't think that means a jammed finger. 1 rider out of 100 will be retired for the day and will require medical assistance. I've been in the business a long time, and I believe those numbers. In fact, I believe the 4.3%.

My husband drives race cars. When presented with the eventing statistics, he said if one in a hundred drivers at the racetrack were going to be injured, half the field would go home.

I have never, ever seen two horses die in one day at a dressage show or two horses drop dead in one day in a pasture unless struck by lightning.

It is an irrefutable fact that if you are racing at high speeds over hard ground, jumping obstacles that don't fall down, it is MUCH more dangerous than prancing around a rubber arena.

sm
Jun. 12, 2006, 07:56 AM
"They cant get enough folks to agree with them, so they are trying to shift the focus on Eventing."

Probably, it's the old the-other-guy's-worse defense. I'm stlll waiting on the stats for colics every year, and death from colics.

***

In regards to turnout, I know of a dressage horse that was kicked at turnout during play and later had to be put down. "I have never, ever seen.... two horses drop dead in one day in a pasture unless struck by lightning, " In regards to two horses in the same day --- it's a large planet, I'm sure it happened even if it didn't make the headlines.

Meanwhile, with two horses at the same barn on the same day there was this recent tragic case: http://www.animalnetwork.com/horse/detail.aspx?aid=26632&cid=3553&category= " A. P Jet was being led to his paddock for a morning turnout when he reared up and got loose from his handler. Savoring his freedom, and being a stallion, he headed directly to the paddock where Gold Token was romping. The two horses began fighting with each other, running along the fence line. Gold Token ran directly into a tree and fell dead. A.P. Jet, who is a leading sire in New York, suffered major injuries in the collision and is at a veterinary clinic. "

***

In regards to abuse/accidents on the road: http://www.siftingsherald.com/articles/2006/05/04/news/news2.txt

***

Stable fires have taken out whole barns of horses.... Stable fires probably have everyone beat in regards to death/injury. Stable fires and colics, all while the horse is home "safely" relaxing in the stall.

***

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 08:26 AM
Yep - take it to the eventing forum and see what you get in response. This has turned into nothing more than "eventing bashing" to divert discussion from the controversial practice of Rollkur.

Pathetic.

HXF
Jun. 12, 2006, 08:39 AM
...it was an example to see a point, not a bash on eventing. One can twist ANYTHING to make it seem abusive or harmless. The two are comparable in that way, those pictures can make it seem that eventing is abusive to horses and the same goes for rollkur. Anything can be twisted to what people want to say or think. What is the truth then? ;)



Nope, I think you guys took it off course a long time ago. This quote sums it up nicely.

nhwr
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:56 AM
I started this thread to explore an idea that I know won't sit well with a lot of people (mostly those who are so vocal that rk is an abuse). It is funny how this evolved though. It is curious to me that many of you who think this way find it perfectly OK to expose a horse to the kind of risks we have been discussing here. I know many don't agree with my premise. No problem.

My last few posts have been an attempt to add some factual information to points brought up by a few ridiculous claims. I don't think eventing is abusive. But I do wonder why some of its defenders have a problem looking what it produces sometimes and feel they must minimize or dismiss any negative data that pertains to the sport. If you think that is "bashing", I'd say you are a too little sensative about it.

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 10:12 AM
Actually - I don't think we've been sensitive about it at all. You make it sound as if the horsemen and organizers have no idea what the risks are and have made no attempt to minimze them for horse and rider. From safety committees, to certifications in course design, to training, to debate within the sport as to its future - to world class studies on conditioning and recovery of horses during xc - eventing is always conducting exhaustive self examination to ensure the welfare of horse and rider is ALWAYS the first priority.

I see your thread as nothing more than trying to justify a very questionable training method (Rollkur) by denigrating another sport. It's unsportsmanlike and mean spirited.

sm
Jun. 12, 2006, 10:14 AM
thank you TwoSimple. There is a great difference between ACCIDENT and a REGIME OF TRAINING ABUSE:

"The real difference here is that Endurance riders, Eventers, Reiners, Policeman, etc. take all the necessary precautions to make sure the horse is as fit, healthy, trained, and safe as possible. Whatever happens beyond that is pure dumb luck that nobody can control or predict. And unfortunately, that is a risk we have to live with no matter the discipline. If we want to domesticate horses and ride them, we accept the risk both to horse and ourselves, that goes hand in hand with that domestication.

BUT dressage people who practice rollkur are purposely putting the horse into a stiff, painful position when it is clearly stressful and uncomfortable for the animal. It is blatant abuse of the animal and exploitation of the horse. "

Arcadien
Jun. 12, 2006, 10:49 AM
Just catching up, and have to point out that the study that said 1.1% of rides resulted in injury measured "pre-novice to Advanced" events - this is in UK terms which in US terms translates to Training to Advanced.

Just figured it bore pointing out as by far most US riders are at Beginner Novice, Novice, & Training levels. The first two divisions don't exist in UK so aren't in that study. In the US, once we get to Training & start eyeing up Prelim we know we are entering rarified air. ;)

That said I was looking for statistics of this sort myself, thanks for posting it. Heck I think we eventers know we risk cracking something out there. We are, afterall, adrenaline junkies, ;) But the horses we ride could also be described as adrenaline junkies - not so happy to be prancing around the rubber rectangle (or, "rectangle of hell" as my OTTB mare described it clearly!) I picture trying to introduce the concept of rollkur on same mare & shudder. She'd have pressed her ejection seat button (she DID have one! lol) many times and if the rider was good enough to persist with such an extreme restriction as this rollkur it would have cruelly broken the spirit of a very special horse...

I for one draw some comfort in the "statistic" drawn from that same study, that I have a 1 in 10,000 chance of winding up dead when I set out on course. I must confess I thought the risk was a bit higher! TIC ;)

Regards,
Arcadien

lstevenson
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:28 PM
It is curious to me that many of you who think this way find it perfectly OK to expose a horse to the kind of risks we have been discussing here.


Risks and abuse are two different things, nhwr. I think you need a new dictionary. People aren't saying rk is risky, they are saying it's abusive, pointless, and wrong.

lstevenson
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:42 PM
I've been in the business a long time, and I believe those numbers.

You've been in the dressage business for a long time, not eventing, right?

Because the more I think about it, the more I know those numbers are not right. For examle there was an event in this area recently with over 450 competitors, and not one injury. In fact, most of them are like that. It is rare enough, that if someone does get hurt, everybody hears about it.

Even Rolex this year, while there were some falls, I never heard of a single rider injury out of almost 80 starters. And everyone knows injuries are more likely to happen at the upper levels.

Arcadian brought up the good point that the study that said 1.1% injury rate was in england, and showed only upper levels. Go to any lower level event, and you won't see many accidents.

iwishiwasriding
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:58 PM
wow...I'm not really sure what to say, i agree that those are horrible accidents, and some of the horses might have been pushed too hard, but I'm not sure I'd say its horrible training. Accidents happen in every aspect of horses, from turnout to shows and races, in some case they could have been prevented, in others, not so much. I dont think you all ought to jump to comclusions about what happened in those pictures, I'm sure they all have a story that you could only hear by finding those riders and asking them.

and that one picture was photoshoped...the one with the dancing mule or w/e it was.

philosoraptor
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:03 PM
Anything you do with a horse is high risk. Even grooming him in the crossties is high risk. Horses are prey animals who tip more toward the "volatile" side of the scale than certain other animals do. Even the dead broke kid pony can blow up with no warning and injure himself or a rider. This is just the nature of horses.

That is incorrect. Risk isn't an all-or-nothing equation. Risk is the probability something bad will happen. We look out for our animals by making those odds as small as humanly possible.

All crossties are not a disaster waiting to happen. Putting a high-strung nutty horse in them for the first-time ever, then walking away, is. Most of us have the common sense not to put a more nervous horse into a new situation unsupervised.

Not all horse are volatile time bombs waiting to go off. I have horses I can tie to a post or trailer, walk away for as long as I'd like, and I KNOW they'll be there when I get back. I know they won't try to break their ties or rear up.

We also know we can do things to lower the risk. We desensitize & teach our horses about new things. We try to use tack, fencing, and barns that have safety in mind. We don't ride in places that may be full of nails, chunks of metal, or sinkholes. We transport using special trailers designed around the safety & comfort of the horses; no rides in the back of the pickup truck for Mr Ed.

Risk management is something we do for ourselves, our kids, and any animals we own.

However, training practices that push the physical limits of the horse's body are aren't accidents. Damage occurred directly from the use (misuse) of harmful training practices. That concept can't be connected to the concept 'horses are always at risk'

While it's true certain disciplines are higher risk than others, there are also certain individuals (owners, trainers, riders) who prioritize winning over the well being of the horse. That doesn’t mean ALL dressage riders are putting their horses into danger. It means there are a few people who will do anything to win.

It is true a police horse was hit and consequently put down in the line of duty. But what of a horse who lives out in pasture happily. One day he finds a hole in the fence, and he wanders onto the roadway. He’s hit and dies. Do we then say keeping horses out to pasture is dangerous? Should we have 3 rows of fencing around our farm just in case a falling tree takes damages a fence?

Sometimes just being alive is risky. ;)

michellec
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:04 PM
"And everyone knows injuries are more likely to happen at the upper levels."

With all due respect, I'm sure you've done the research, but just for clarification: It is far more scary to watch the inexperienced riders, more often at the lower-levels, trying to control their mounts while in the warm-up field. As a volunteer I see more bad falls and injuries occurring due to riders losing their balance or from inability to steer their mounts. On the contrary, the injuries that occur at the upper levels seem to occur more frequently from accidents (as you pointed out) and mis-steps than anything else. As a spectator, I see more rider injuries with the lower-level riders than the upper-level riders.

Carry on.

lstevenson
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:15 PM
[quote=michellec It is far more scary to watch the inexperienced riders, more often at the lower-levels, trying to control their mounts while in the warm-up field. [/quote]


Oh, yes it is definatly more scary to watch the lower levels.:lol: But they usually don't get hurt.

HorsesRMe
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:22 PM
The last one was the absolute worst!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

nhwr
Jun. 12, 2006, 02:05 PM
The concepts of risk and abuse are related. We are free to choose for ourselves what risks we want to take on. But when we take them on for an animal, the considerations are different. It is an accepted definition of animal abuse to engage an animal in an activity that puts it at risk of losing its life.

HXF
Jun. 12, 2006, 02:15 PM
nhwr - admit it - you really should have posted rodeo pics :winkgrin:

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 02:17 PM
That's not in my definition of abuse - nor is it in the Code of Virginia.

You've gone from comparing apples to oranges, to grasping at straws, to being lost in space. Give it a rest - you tried to make some point that in your mind makes perfect sense and no one knows what the hell you are talking about. Insisting you're right won't change that.

You're saying that Rollkur is ok because at least you're not making your horse jump a fence in a horse trial. I'm saying that an abuse of a horse is not excusable by pointing at another person and whining that your abuse is not as bad as asking a fit, conditioned, talented horse to jump a fence at speed.

So there it is. Move on.