How can people train horses this way? It is abusive.

[nhwr]

You are right, HXF. You could if you want. I don't have a lot of "google" time today.

I am just going with the flow here. I did try to make this about other things a couple of times. But it seems everyone else wants to make this about eventing.

J Swan, please point out where I said rolkur was ok. I said I think it is technique that may have some useful applications. And that more info is needed on it.

[Equibrit]

The original question is a lot like posting these photos (http://www.car-accidents.com/pages/car_accident_photo.html) and asking "how can people learn to drive this way? It is dangerous.

Well - DUUUUUUUUUUUUUH! Wrong premise!

[BarbB]

The concepts of risk and abuse are related. We are free to choose for ourselves what risks we want to take on. But when we take them on for an animal, the considerations are different. It is an accepted definition of animal abuse to engage an animal in an activity that puts it at risk of losing its life.
post #240 by nhwr "I don't think eventing is abusive."



\
Either it is or it isn't, make up your mind.
oh.....maybe you just wanted to throw some accusations around and stir some...... In which case you are not required to pick. :rolleyes:

[J Swan]

You are right, HXF. You could if you want. I don't have a lot of "google" time today.

I am just going with the flow here. I did try to make this about other things a couple of times. But it seems everyone else wants to make this about eventing.

J Swan, please point out where I said rolkur was ok. I said I think it is technique that may have some useful applications. And that more info is needed on it.

Actully - you did say it in other threads - and in this thread you support that assertion and justify it by comparing a questionable training method to horrible accidents.

The intent was to confuse and confound. And you didn't try and make it into other things a couple of times - you keep asserting that cross country accidents are comparable to the extremes of Rollkur. And it's not - and no one agrees with you. And if you really were worried about safety on xc - you'd post this thread in the eventing forum.

[nhwr]

JSwan, I understand that this is what you want to make out of what I have said. My intent was to promote discussion about a point you originally raised. If you find that confusing and confounding... I am truly sorry.

[J Swan]

What point did I raise that could possibly lead to anyone equating a questionable training method and horrible xc accidents?

Oh never mind - I don't even want to read this anymore. Go to the endurance forum and tell them they're abusing their horses and see who bites. I'm done.

[Sannois]

What point did I raise that could possibly lead to anyone equating a questionable training method and horrible xc accidents?

Oh never mind - I don't even want to read this anymore. Go to the endurance forum and tell them they're abusing their horses and see who bites. I'm done.
I totally agree JSwan, I dont know why I keep opeing this thread!
Its like the terrible wreck on the highway, You just have to look! :eek:

[Red Hunter]

[QUOTE=J Swan]But please - don't tell me my horse is somehow mistreated by foxhunting - he finally found his niche and is happier than a pig in sh** in the hunt field - so much that if I move the trailer, or get this - listen to a tape of horn calls while washing the truck - the horse gallops to the gate and whinnies.

Another foxhunter who would like to comment on how my horse lived to hunt. Actually, he probably enjoyed it more than I did.

I just have one comment to the OP -- If you think that Eventing or other horse sports are abusive, than don't participate. But, please do not preach to the rest of us. Do you really think that those of use who participate in these activities really give a s**t what you think?

[kkj]

Nhwr,

One more time I will say I totally agree with you.
I see a lot of hypocrisy here. It is a lot easier for people to attack what other people/disciplines do than themselves/their own discipline. They are much too close to see it and they have to be able to justify it to keep doing it.

The way I see it is highly competitive dressage and eventing attract very different personality types. I see the eventers as very brave capable all most adreline jockeys. The dressage riders more controlled perfectionists and artists. Both will resort to what it takes to win and justify their actions. Eventers will choose for the horse to partake in a dangerous activity and push it to the limit (ie 4 stars). Dressage riders might force the horse to do something uncomfortable to win (Rolkur) or use gimmicks or tricks. Both would demand the same of themselves as they do of the horses. Top event riders risk their necks willingly. Top dressage riders would do extreme Yoga if it meant the top prize.

The eventers can say but my horse loves it. Well maybe, maybe not. You cannot tell me definitely that your horse loves anything or that your horse is even capable of love. See "Anthropomorphism". Second, the horse may well enjoy the activity but has no appreciation of the risk. The eventer must act as the parent for the horse and by exposing the horse to the risks that the eventer him/herself is willing to take, s/he is choosing that it is acceptable for that horse to have a chance of injury or death 1.1 % or whatever it is. She is also choosing that it is OK for the horse to be exposed to the wear and tear of eventing whatever it may be. What is the average career lenghth of an eventer anyway? (side note all riders choose that it OK for the horse to be exposed to the wear and tear that whatever type of riding they do has on their horse. I am merely asserting that Eventing is a bit more strenuous and hard on the horses than a lot of riding is.)

Dressage riders who engage in Rolkur are choosing that it is OK for the horse to endure it if it leads to winning show tests. ( I am assuming here if those participating in it were at the bottom of the heap, they would abandon it in search of some other method) They may well feel the horses are not comfortable while doing Rolkur, but believe in the no pain no gain philosphy. Like I said, I am sure Anky would tie her neck to her chest if it meant she would win the next World Cup. They will practice and practice and drill and drill to perfection because this is what they expect of themselves and their horse just as the event rider will drive and push for more, faster, higher, longer out of the horse just as they do out of themselves.

Both can justify it with but my horse would not win if he didn't enjoy it. This is what he was cut out to do (or rather selectively bred by people to be foolish enough to excel in and not protest about) You can't get to the top of blank sport unless the horse likes its job.

On a rudimentary level, I don't see much difference in the two Rolkur and cross country. Riders are using horse for their agenda, pleasure, gain, adreline rush whatever other selfish need. This is what people have always used the domesticated horse for. If you are going to judge the practices of others, well someone is sure to find fault in what you are doing as well.

Event riders are deliberately exposing their horses to a risk of injury or death which is clearly higher than that of horses who do dressage. Those who practice Rolkur are deliberately exposing their horses to the pain and discomfort of Rolkur. Cannot we paint a reality where these are both abuse (not saying that they are) but if one is the other one can be seen the same.

Some of you event supporters might say but the risk of a horse dying is so low or of it getting seriously injured for that matter. Rolkur is abuse 100 % of the time. Well, if you could ask the dead horse what do you think it would say of the risk. Do you think he might say, "Damn I wish I was exposed to 10 years of Rolkur rather than breaking my neck on the jump". Who knows. Me as a reasonably intelligent person, I'd take the Rolkur anyday.


I don't like Rolkur and I sure as hell would not want to be reincarnated as an event horse. I risk horses lives too and justify the risk-- I have done cross country, hauled my horse long distances, etc etc. If we want to have horses as part of our lives I feel it is only right that we acknowledge that sometimes we do not act in the best interest of the horse. All people in all disciplines are guilty of this. We have all done it deliberately whether we acknowledge it our not. Some of us from each discipline just choose to live in a glass house.

Come on own up to it. I have.

[poopoo]

I don't like Rolkur and I sure as hell would not want to be reincarnated as an event horse. I risk horses lives too and justify the risk-- I have done cross country, hauled my horse long distances, etc etc. If we want to have horses as part of our lives I feel it is only right that we acknowledge that sometimes we do not act in the best interest of the horse. All people in all disciplines are guilty of this. We have all done it deliberately whether we acknowledge it our not. Some of us from each discipline just choose to live in a glass house.

Come on own up to it. I have.[/QUOTE]

My point EXACTLY. You said it so well. I think we should at least be honest with ourselves, whether it changes our decisions or not.

[HXF]

Excellent, excellent post kkj:yes:

[lstevenson]

What is the average career lenghth of an eventer anyway?




Event riders are deliberately exposing their horses to a risk of injury or death which is clearly higher than that of horses who do dressage. Those who practice Rolkur are deliberately exposing their horses to the pain and discomfort of Rolkur. Cannot we paint a reality where these are both abuse (not saying that they are) but if one is the other one can be seen the same.


First of all, many eventers have extremely long careers. Many of the horses you see in the Olympics are 15 to 18 years old. And they have been doing it all their lives.

And if you are going to continue to non-sensically say that x-c riding is abuse because there is some risk involved, I will ask you again:

What about putting a horse in a trailer? Surely that's abuse, since horses are badly injured and killed in trailer accidents all the time.


Abuse is not putting a horse in a situation where something may happen (again if that were true, then putting a horse out in a field with other horses would also be abuse), abuse is actually doing something painful or harmfull to the animal. Big difference.

[poopoo]

No, the definition is "improper or injurious use" in the dictionary, if we're going to split hairs.... That can have many interpretations. And technically, all riding is considered abuse then.... There are always two sides to everything, even if you can't see the other side.

[mzpeepers]

The eventers can say but my horse loves it. Well maybe, maybe not. You cannot tell me definitely that your horse loves anything or that your horse is even capable of love. See "Anthropomorphism". Second, the horse may well enjoy the activity but has no appreciation of the risk. The eventer must act as the parent for the horse

So let me see if I get this right....It is not ok to assume that a horse is capable of loving or even enjoying a particular activity but it is perfectly ok to act as the parent of said horse? Way to double standard! Please see "Antropomorphism".

[lstevenson]

No, the definition is "improper or injurious use" in the dictionary, if we're going to split hairs.... That can have many interpretations. And technically, all riding is considered abuse then.... There are always two sides to everything, even if you can't see the other side.


And x-c is an "injurious use" of a horse only a small percentage of the time, as is putting a horse in a trailer.

Unlike rk, which is an "improper" use of the horse for every second it is used.

It's really not that hard to understand.

[poopoo]

So, essentially you are talking about degrees of improper and injurious use - so "degrees if abuse" then?

[J Swan]

Wow -it's getting pretty deep in here. So it's ok to anthromoporphize our horses as long as we agree with what you're saying? I am not a "parent" of my horse.

So here's another vote for "yes, Rollkur is abusive but not as abusive as your abuse because it only lasts a few minutes". Geez - so I guess it's ok to slap my kid so hard it leaves a bruise - but not ok to break its leg - because a bruise heals faster than a break.

Oh puhleeze - if you feel that way about horses in sport you shouldn't own any animals at all - get a pet rock.

Uh - let's see - what is the career of an eventer? Hmmm - I guess all those horses in their late teens and early 20's still competing don't serve to support your gratuitous assertion. Hmmmm - how about the 20 somethings in the hunt field in my own hunt?

Hmmmmm - all those older horses at the lower levels still winning those ribbons with those happy owners- and lest we forget - my own fieldhunter who, if he sees me move my trailer - gallops up to the gate and whinnies because he thinks I'm leaving without him ...

Saw Giltedge and Custom Made at the Expo a while back - obviously 3 legged lame because they were careening around the arena and free jumping and biting each other - poor things....

The posts I'm reading about how eventing is so bad are pretty frickin pretentious. And defending Rollkur by admitting it is an abuse of the horse and trying to justify it by condemning another sport is absolutely pathetic.

And what really makes me laugh is that some of the people who you're accusing of not "owning up to it" - are people heavily involved in animal welfare issue and rescue - and - get this - they don't event.

Why have none of you taken this to the eventing forum? Because you're not talking about dressage - it's a free for all on eventing. I guess that if you did take this discussion into the eventing forum - the facts would really get in the way of your argument. Guess it's easier to stay in this forum with the superiority complexes.

And since it seems you can't stop focusing on xc - dressage is part of a horse trial as well; so is stadium.

cluck cluck cluck


Nhwr,

One more time I will say I totally agree with you.
I see a lot of hypocrisy here. It is a lot easier for people to attack what other people/disciplines do than themselves/their own discipline. They are much too close to see it and they have to be able to justify it to keep doing it.

The way I see it is highly competitive dressage and eventing attract very different personality types. I see the eventers as very brave capable all most adreline jockeys. The dressage riders more controlled perfectionists and artists. Both will resort to what it takes to win and justify their actions. Eventers will choose for the horse to partake in a dangerous activity and push it to the limit (ie 4 stars). Dressage riders might force the horse to do something uncomfortable to win (Rolkur) or use gimmicks or tricks. Both would demand the same of themselves as they do of the horses. Top event riders risk their necks willingly. Top dressage riders would do extreme Yoga if it meant the top prize.

The eventers can say but my horse loves it. Well maybe, maybe not. You cannot tell me definitely that your horse loves anything or that your horse is even capable of love. See "Anthropomorphism". Second, the horse may well enjoy the activity but has no appreciation of the risk. The eventer must act as the parent for the horse and by exposing the horse to the risks that the eventer him/herself is willing to take, s/he is choosing that it is acceptable for that horse to have a chance of injury or death 1.1 % or whatever it is. She is also choosing that it is OK for the horse to be exposed to the wear and tear of eventing whatever it may be. What is the average career lenghth of an eventer anyway? (side note all riders choose that it OK for the horse to be exposed to the wear and tear that whatever type of riding they do has on their horse. I am merely asserting that Eventing is a bit more strenuous and hard on the horses than a lot of riding is.)

Dressage riders who engage in Rolkur are choosing that it is OK for the horse to endure it if it leads to winning show tests. ( I am assuming here if those participating in it were at the bottom of the heap, they would abandon it in search of some other method) They may well feel the horses are not comfortable while doing Rolkur, but believe in the no pain no gain philosphy. Like I said, I am sure Anky would tie her neck to her chest if it meant she would win the next World Cup. They will practice and practice and drill and drill to perfection because this is what they expect of themselves and their horse just as the event rider will drive and push for more, faster, higher, longer out of the horse just as they do out of themselves.

Both can justify it with but my horse would not win if he didn't enjoy it. This is what he was cut out to do (or rather selectively bred by people to be foolish enough to excel in and not protest about) You can't get to the top of blank sport unless the horse likes its job.

On a rudimentary level, I don't see much difference in the two Rolkur and cross country. Riders are using horse for their agenda, pleasure, gain, adreline rush whatever other selfish need. This is what people have always used the domesticated horse for. If you are going to judge the practices of others, well someone is sure to find fault in what you are doing as well.

Event riders are deliberately exposing their horses to a risk of injury or death which is clearly higher than that of horses who do dressage. Those who practice Rolkur are deliberately exposing their horses to the pain and discomfort of Rolkur. Cannot we paint a reality where these are both abuse (not saying that they are) but if one is the other one can be seen the same.

Some of you event supporters might say but the risk of a horse dying is so low or of it getting seriously injured for that matter. Rolkur is abuse 100 % of the time. Well, if you could ask the dead horse what do you think it would say of the risk. Do you think he might say, "Damn I wish I was exposed to 10 years of Rolkur rather than breaking my neck on the jump". Who knows. Me as a reasonably intelligent person, I'd take the Rolkur anyday.


I don't like Rolkur and I sure as hell would not want to be reincarnated as an event horse. I risk horses lives too and justify the risk-- I have done cross country, hauled my horse long distances, etc etc. If we want to have horses as part of our lives I feel it is only right that we acknowledge that sometimes we do not act in the best interest of the horse. All people in all disciplines are guilty of this. We have all done it deliberately whether we acknowledge it our not. Some of us from each discipline just choose to live in a glass house.

Come on own up to it. I have.

[Sannois]

I love ya! To the person you quoted, Pleeeze!!! Eventing and Rollkur are not even in the same catagory, Aske eventers if they think its abusive. They are some of the best cared for best conditioned horses in the competitive world. Come on take it to the eventing forum! I DARE you! Ask Denny Emerson if he thinks its abusive, I double dog dare you!!! :D

[kkj]

I know some eventers have long careers and some eventers probably love it as well as a horse can love something. I do not have a problem with eventing. I think if people want to use horses for riding we have to act as their parent. We just need to acknowledge that we are sometimes acting in our best interest not theirs. People are so very often selfish creatures and often competely ignorant to their tendency to be so.

I will stand by that lots and lots of horses that have a lot of eventing potential never get there due to injury. This is also true in dressage, show jumping and what have you, but eventing does have more injuries and more career ending ones.

Putting a horse out in a pasture (unless it is barbed wire or has land mines or something) or in a trailer (assuming the tires are good and you are a decent driver) to me does not qualify as abuse. Sure you can take the slippery slope argument out to include anything a person does to a horse as abusive. However, I think making the deliberate cause stick is pretty tough there. When the injury or insult to the horse happens in the course of someone riding a horse, I think the case for abuse is much stronger. In riding a horse we are doing it for our own selfish pleasure, enjoyment, goals, prizes, transportation whatever. When you do something for your own selfish needs, goals or desires, the opportunity and incidence of abuse increases.

You might trailer a horse to the vet which could be argued to be solely for the horse's benefit. All you get out of it is a bill and hopeful result of keeping the horse healthy and sound so you can ride him/her.

Let me ask those of you who thinks Rolkur is the devil and riding a horse cross country has zero culpability something. If the rarity were to occur and your horse were to be killed cross country and not by a heart problem or whatever but by crashing into a jump, how guilty would you feel? Would your conscience give you a bit of pause? Would you ask yourself, "If only if I didn't run him cross country today"? Might you consider switching over to dressage or hunters? Now let me ask you, how guilty would you feel if your horse dropped dead in a pasture with perfectly good fences and without a pasture dynamic that should have given a reasonable horse person pause in putting the horse out there (ie. Brute the horse has been biting, kicking attacking your horse for weeks)? Do you think you would feel the same guilt or do you think you might just feel loss, saddness etc? Maybe some of you would feel no guilt in either situation. Well then you are too obtuse for me to discuss this with.

I would feel very guilty if something I was doing for my selfish pleasure resulted in ending a horses life whether I intended it or not. In the back of my mind I feel a little guilt for some of the things I do to my horse even though I never deliberately intend to abuse anyone or thing. I know that my existence on this earth causes the pain, suffering abuse of many other creatures-- the cows hyde on my shoes, the ants I step on, the chipmunks who drown in my pool, the whale blubber in my lipstick whatever. I am not in Peta, but I appreciate all the sacrifices animals make for us especially because the choice is not even truly theirs. Yes I ride horses, I jump, I compete, I do it for my own selfish pleasure, desire to win whatever. I acknowledge that in so doing, I am not always looking out for the best interest of the horse.

I love my horse and never try to hurt her in anyway.
I take the best care of my horse I can. The expensive barn with 8 hours of turn out and a plush stall at night, the rubber footing in the arena, the custom made saddle, the best food and supplements, the best vet care whatever. All of this is a small price to pay for the honor and enjoyment of sitting on my horse's back. I justify what I do to my horse because I take good care of her and she is better off with me than she would be out in the wild fighting to survive.

I think it is OK to use a horse. I can justify this. I like all the Olympic horse sports. I cannot relate to those who keep horses and do not ride them or who rescue horses and don't ride them. I want to ride and I put my needs above the horse in this.

Abuse is all a matter of perspective and degree. All horse people are guilty of it to some extent. Once again, own up.

[Sannois]

:no:

[bounce]

Nhwr,

The eventer must act as the parent for the horse and by exposing the horse to the risks that the eventer him/herself is willing to take, s/he is choosing that it is acceptable for that horse to have a chance of injury or death 1.1 % or whatever it is.


Does this mean that you think all of those parents out there that have children that are competing are abusing their children?

[J Swan]

Good googly moogly - why do people pop out of the woodwork and turn every post into "how I treat my horse and how much better I do it than the rest of you?" This isn't about YOU, kkj.

If you consider yourself your horses "parent" - I think that's really scary. It's PETAbabble to me and it makes me nauseous.

You have obviously never seen an eventer cry, or worry over their mount, and you assume - based on nothing but your own concept of "parenthood" that eventers do not take any steps to minimize the risk of injury to their horses. The concept of a rider feeling responsible for their horse is not new or unique.

And I guess you've never read the books eventers have written - full of stories over their horses - all of them - and understood the depth of devotion they felt towards their horses.

You're asking eventers to own up to abuse - an abuse that does not exist except in your mind.

You're assuming that eventers feel nothing for their horses - they they are merely equipment for sport. But there is no evidence to support that assertion - just your touchy feely assertions that we should be their "parent".

Bullsh**. If you feel that way - really - you should not own horses.

[kkj]

[QUOTE=J Swan]If you think that Eventing or other horse sports are abusive, than don't participate. But, please do not preach to the rest of us. Do you really think that those of use who participate in these activities really give a s**t what you think?

No Red Hunter and others, I don't think you give a s**t what I think or nwhr thinks or whoever else disagrees with you. However, I think somewhere in your subconscious, you care or you would not have been compelled to respond to this post. Somewhere I think a lot of you do have some guilt. Good.

I am not afraid to take this type of argument to the eventing forum or the endurance forum or to a room full of rodeo cowboys or whatever. I just don't think I have the energy to go there. I was just replying as I could understand nwhr's argument and line of reasoning.

If one of you wants to take a similar post over to the eventing forum, let me know and I will go weigh in over there.

Listen, I was truly not intending just to blast eventers out there or even to defend Rolkur or the Ankys of the world. Just think people should look honestly at themselves before we out and out attack others. I have owned up to the things I have done that were not in the horses best interest. I have justified them. Is there any eventer out there that wants to do the same?

Again I know some top eventers are in their teens and are sound and fit and incredible incredible horses. Just let's please acknowledge all the ones who go lame early on and don't make it to that level. The advanced horses in their teens are the exception not the rule just as is any horse making it to Grand Prix in Dressage or staying sound for 4 years of racing or whatever. Riding is hard on horses people. It just is. And eventing is harder on them than most other forms of riding.

[Coup De Des]

And what about those eventers who go XC IN Rolkur!!! Goodness me.


:eek:

[kkj]

I am a protective parent. I worry about my boys playing football. I would not want them eventing. Since a kid was killed eventing when I was in the UK in 1999, yeah, I wouldn't want my kids doing it. Do I think parents that have their kids event are abusing them, no but exposing them to a risk of injury that I am not comfortable with-- yes. That is a choice for them to make just like it is a choice to event your horse. You can make that choice. I think you are entitled. I also chose not to ride while pregnant. I would not be able to live with myself if something happened to my baby. People choose to ride every day while pregnant. It is their choice. If something, God forbid were to happen, yes I think they are responsible. Just as I feel with choosing to event a horse. At least I am consistant, I think.

J Swan I know eventers love their horses. I am sure some of them are better horse owners than I am. I am sure some cry for their horses, take out a second morgage to care for them whatever. I am sure they do not intend the horse to come to any harm.

Yes I feel like we are entrusted to be the horse's parent. We choose what the horse does for a career, we look after the horses best interest, we are legally responisble for the horse, (and we are prone to exploit them for our own gain)

I don't think I will ever give up riding. I love it. I justify it. I need it in my life. I am selfish too. I just acknowledge this in myself.

[J Swan]

No, my dear - I have no guilt. And if I did - I'd go to a priest for absolution - not to the COTH BB. I don't require your efforts in the pulpit.

I'll see your anecdote and raise you one:

Interesting - I've known more lower level dressage horses going lame and ending their careers at a young age than event horses. My neighbor got a free Hannoverian that way, actually. Oh - she's going to event him since the reason he was going to be put down was that the owner had pushed him too hard and he had "injured a suspensory". He was going to be euthanized, so my neighbor said she'd take the horse off the lady's hands as a favor. 5 years old and already pushing him past 2nd level - yeah - I guess he'd be lame.

Nothing wrong with the horse - her major problem now is that he keeps jumping the fences in his pasture. He's a bold horse - bet he events until he's 20.

If you feel that people need to examine their own motives before attacking others - how to you support your assertion that the OP is correct in her logic????? hmmmmm????? The OP is the one who made the original "comparison" and accusation that xc is an abuse of the horse; pitting sport against sport.

I have absolutely no guilt about what I ask my horses to do. Guilt implies shame and deceit. There is nothing shameful or deceitful about using horses in sport - and it's not selfish. If you feel that way - geez - all I can say is that your life must not be a very happy one if you go around feeling guilty and selfish every time you get on your horse.



[QUOTE=Red Hunter]

No Red Hunter and others, I don't think you give a s**t what I think or nwhr thinks or whoever else disagrees with you. However, I think somewhere in your subconscious, you care or you would not have been compelled to respond to this post. Somewhere I think a lot of you do have some guilt. Good.

I am not afraid to take this type of argument to the eventing forum or the endurance forum or to a room full of rodeo cowboys or whatever. I just don't think I have the energy to go there. I was just replying as I could understand nwhr's argument and line of reasoning.

If one of you wants to take a similar post over to the eventing forum, let me know and I will go weigh in over there.

Listen, I was truly not intending just to blast eventers out there or even to defend Rolkur or the Ankys of the world. Just think people should look honestly at themselves before we out and out attack others. I have owned up to the things I have done that were not in the horses best interest. I have justified them. Is there any eventer out there that wants to do the same?

Again I know some top eventers are in their teens and are sound and fit and incredible incredible horses. Just let's please acknowledge all the ones who go lame early on and don't make it to that level. The advanced horses in their teens are the exception not the rule just as is any horse making it to Grand Prix in Dressage or staying sound for 4 years of racing or whatever. Riding is hard on horses people. It just is. And eventing is harder on them than most other forms of riding.

[fiona]

KKJ in the UK we also have hundreds of children that are alive and eventing. They are also playing polo,skiing, rock climbing, racing go karts,mini motorbikes and anything else they can lay their hands on. Kids here get to go swimming sailing shooting fishing they play every sport under the sun.
It's because we choose life. Do i think those parents are exposing their children to risk? No i think it's giving them opportunity. I think parents like you that are "protective" are wrong and mean for not letting your children experience life adventure and excitement.

Yes I feel like we are entrusted to be the horse's parent. We choose what the horse does for a career, we look after the horses best interest, we are legally responisble for the horse, (and we are prone to exploit them for our own gain)

if that's your defintion of parenting then you are posssibly the scariest person ever.

[J Swan]

if that's your defintion of parenting then you are posssibly the scariest person ever.


And how 'bout all those little kids on ponies out foxhunting??? They put us all to shame - the yusually ride better, the ponies are fantastic hunters, and the kids are relaxed and happy without the benefit of the "liquid courage" we old farts have in our flasks. Uneven footing, bad weather, far from an ambulance - fast speeds - I guess those parents should be arrested for child abuse - not to mention being bad pony parents.

[kkj]

I admit I am a more protective parent than most. I will let my kids ride and jump just not cross country. It may not make sense but that is just how I feel. I will let them ski, (not rock climb. I know two people who died that way in separate accidents) sail, swim in the ocean whatever. I am not saying this is perfectly rational, just how I feel. Once again I acknowledge my prejudices. As parents, it is our duty to determine what activities we feel are safe and appropriate for our kids (same as we do for our horses)

If one of my kids grow up, become an eventer and go to advanced level, hey I would be proud of them. I would worry about them as most moms do but I would be proud. Once again, I do not have a problem with eventing.

I know a lot of dressage people push the crap out of their horses. I have seen this too. So do jumping people and western people and every discipline. Eventing is more inherently dangerous though. Doesn't matter what precautions are taken or how much you love your eventer, it is a more dangerous sport. More power to you if you have the balls to do it.

I would be wary of using a horse with an old suspensory tear as an event prospect. If the horse is totally rehabbed and healed and the vet says OK, yeah go for it. However, I would personally be surprised if that particular horse is still out eventing at 20. If it is, awesome.

[lstevenson]

Putting a horse out in a pasture (unless it is barbed wire or has land mines or something) or in a trailer (assuming the tires are good and you are a decent driver) to me does not qualify as abuse.




But it's the same thing! It's doing something that puts the horse at risk of injury. I thought you said you were reasonably intelligent?

[J Swan]

No worries - he never had a suspensory tear. He was burned out and fried because his owner couldn't be bothered to let him grow up. Push push push - use those shortcuts - force young WB's......

And your child will mostly likely never event at the Advanced level - there's a reason eventers have a young rider program, and overly protected kids rarely develop into bold adults. Not questioning your ability to be a decent parent - just saying that bubble wrap is for china - not children.

[Avra]

"The advanced horses in their teens are the exception not the rule just as is any horse making it to Grand Prix in Dressage or staying sound for 4 years of racing or whatever."

According to the Chronicle, here is the age breakdown for the horses that were entered to compete at the Rolex KY **** in 2006:

9--2
10--15
11--11
12--9
13--8
14--13
15--11
16--3
17--1
18--1
Not listed/unknown--2

Yes, there is a degree of risk inherent in eventing that isn't present in dressage. But career/ life-ending injuries are far from the norm for horses or riders, and a large percentage of horses do compete at the top levels well into their teens.

[lstevenson]

[
The advanced horses in their teens are the exception not the rule


Ignorant. Just truely ignorant.

[sm]

ah yes, lstevenson.

Which is why this thead attacking EVENTING is here and not on the Eventing forum. At the very least, this OP is one stop short of good sportmenship...

[J Swan]

ah yes, lstevenson.

Which is why this thead attacking EVENTING is here and not on the Eventing forum. At the very least, this OP is one stop short of good sportmenship...


I don't usually associate the term "good sportsmanship" with dressage. Eventing yes - but not dressage.

[sm]

DEFINITELY in short supply in dressage: "good sportsmanship" and good horsemen (by that I mean caring for the whole horse, not just prepping for the show off moments under saddle).

[merrygoround]

Here I'll have to agree. Eventers are forced to be good horsemen, dressage riders can pay grooms, trainers etc. But the good ones still know which end is up.

George Morris had a woderful howl in this weeks Chronicle about the state of horsemanship in the present SJ world.

[J Swan]

George Morris had a woderful howl in this weeks Chronicle about the state of horsemanship in the present SJ world.

What? I missed that - I'll have to go back and read it again.

[BarbB]

And what about those eventers who go XC IN Rolkur!!! Goodness me.
:eek:


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cool:

[J Swan]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cool:

Yep - very funny. A rollkured horse would never last xc - eventers actually want their horses to see where they're going. But finally, all those posters who oppose working their dressage horses on uneven surfaces make sense - cuz if they use that method - yup - horse will flip over and flatten them.

[BarbB]

It was the only post for several pages that seemed appropriate to the "discussion"
I was originally kind of pi$$ed off at the accusations that all eventers are subjecting their horses to abuse. Early on I did a little name calling over it.
Then I ignored the thread. Then I come back to see that the OP and friends are now asserting that they didn't SAY that eventing is abuse, they LIKE eventing.....it just IS abuse.

It's gotten so silly and convoluted and PETA sounding that I appreciated the vision of a horse with his head between his knees running XC. Makes as much sense as anything on this thread.

What did Velvet call them......Garage Gnomes????:yes:

And just for the record.....I am not the parent of my horse. Nor do I point at other disciplines and make accusations. Nor am I a card carrying member of PETA or its ilk. And except when I have had too much, hmmmmm, refreshment, I generally try not to talk through my hat....especially in public.

[Red Hunter]

[QUOTE=Red Hunter]

No Red Hunter and others, I don't think you give a s**t what I think or nwhr thinks or whoever else disagrees with you. However, I think somewhere in your subconscious, you care or you would not have been compelled to respond to this post. Somewhere I think a lot of you do have some guilt. Good.

kkj - Interesting analogy you have about my repressed guilt. Perhaps, this is why I sometimes have difficulty sleeping at night worrying about all the abuse my poor old foxhunter has had to endure. LOL

[kkj]

OK you guys. Once again I do not have a problem with eventing. I admire you guys for the guts and the skill. I would have a problem if you were only willing to risk the horses neck and not your own but you are willing to take the risk yourselves too. That is totally your choice and I don't think you are abusers for it.

My comment about advance horses in their teens being the exception was poorly written. I know that most horses that make it to advanced are in their teens. It takes a ton of training and talent and time to get there. I would not expect to see a 6 year old doing it. What I was trying to say is that for every successful horse at advanced level there are x number that did not make it there not due to a lack of talent or desire but because they were injured or simply did not hold up.

I have liked most all the event riders I have known. Respect them. Have a couple of good friends who event. I used to be more ballsy myself before I had kids. I got a huge rush cross country. I have started over 20 horses myself, done extreme skiing even. I like adreline too. I have a fancy dressage horse but I always do my own grooming. A lot of dressage people are very hard working and hands on too.

Lstevenson as for the trailering horses being the same as eventing them, I will still hold out that there is a distinction. Yes as I said we can paint most anything we do to a horse as abuse. However, choosing for it to jump several solid obstacles for our own gain and pleasure and risking even if it is a small risk its life and limb is arguably more abusive than putting the horse in a box to move it from point A to point B when the benefit may very well be for the horse ie) trip to the vet. But again, I do not think cross country is abusive. You choose the life that you want your horse to have and you have to own it.

Also my definition of parenting was indeed an awful one. Not well thought out or written at that early hour. I do feel much more like I am a parent to my horse than an owner of her. I care for her and support her and choose what activities she does just like parents do for their preschoolers. When the kids get older of course they can choose, "Hey mom I want to do soccer instead of swimming". However a horse never really matures to that degree. The horse may very well end up in the discipline in which it is best suited or most content or it may not.

I totally agree that some dressage people push, abuse horses. I do not like Rolkur. For my own prejudices, I hope Salinero bucks Ankys butt off in a huge competition. However, I acknowledge that Rolkur is not the worst abuse in the world and all horse people do not so rosy wonderful perfect things to horses. That was all I was trying to say.

[Blugal]

My comment about advance horses in their teens being the exception was poorly written. I know that most horses that make it to advanced are in their teens. It takes a ton of training and talent and time to get there. I would not expect to see a 6 year old doing it. What I was trying to say is that for every successful horse at advanced level there are x number that did not make it there not due to a lack of talent or desire but because they were injured or simply did not hold up.



I don't agree. The vast majority of eventers (riders and horses) are at the lower levels. Many that are talented aren't owned by riders who want to do upper levels. Many that don't have the desire stay at Novice level forever, and are happy there. Most eventers realize when a horse doesn't want to go any higher, and place the horse at the level it's happy BEFORE it gets injured. It's not that they all got injured or did not hold up! If that's the way you think, I could say the exact same thing about dressage horses. For every successful horse at GP dressage, there are x number that didn't make it there not due to a lack of talent or desire but because they were injured or simply did not hold up.

I bet you will disagree with that!

[claire]

I totally agree that some dressage people push, abuse horses. I do not like Rolkur. For my own prejudices, I hope Salinero bucks Ankys butt off in a huge competition.

The reasoning (if one could call it that) on this thread is just so illogical and convoluted. You REALLY wish that someone would get hurt? Unbelievable.

nhwr, The stated thread topic was "How can people TRAIN this way? It is abusive." You then took the time to post XC accidents (and a few other photo's) Then posted some "amusing"? "ironic"? commentary to go with the photos.

You then deny that you were joking (just making a "POINT" about how any discipline can have bad moments)

I will ask again: what does a training method/gymnastic exercise/RK have to do with a riding discipline and accidents that can happen?

I have to believe as Velvet and Barb point out you are just trolling.

And,perhaps, trying to deflect attention away from a thread/topic that you cannot logically defend. ie. RK (EXTREME Deep w/lateral flexions) as a training method that is not conducive to the original standards of dressage.

Not that I really expect an answer: I am learning that logical, civil discussions are for the most part not what the Dressage forum is about. Sad. :( I would enjoy learning about Dressage from the different experiences, points of view on a BB.

[kkj]

Blugal no I would agree that a lot of dressage horses do not make it to Grand Prix because the get injured or don't hold up. There are a lot of horses in all disciplines that have the talent, work ethic whatever but don't make it to the highest level because they get injured or don't hold up. Many many dressage horses will have hock problems, suspensorys, ring bone etc etc before they get to Grand Prix.

I agree that some eventers don't make it because they have the wrong owner or are happy doing novice or whatever. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Some horses don't make it to advance because they have a crummy rider or one that is happy at novice and some don't make it due to injuries or not holding up. Some don't make it because they have a lot of talent but are chicken or because they have a ton of guts but are a klutz.
Eventing is harder on the horses than dressage all other things being equal. That does not mean that it is abusive or you are a horrible person for participating.

However, if you will not acknowledge the stress it puts on the horse or the risks associated with it, then you are just not being totally honest with the horse, yourself or the rest of us.

[lstevenson]

However, if you will not acknowledge the stress it puts on the horse or the risks associated with it, then you are just not being totally honest with the horse, yourself or the rest of us.


What about the stress and associated risks involved with putting a horse in a trailer and going 70 mph on the interstate? EXPLAIN TO ME how that's different.

[kkj]

Claire, I would never ever hope for anyone to get hurt- horses, people or otherwise. I just sometimes hope that some people will get a little embarrassment and dirty breeches for things they do to win that aren't very nice. It is more of a figurative butt bucked off than an actual one. I can't help it. I like to see the horses get a little revenge sometimes.

I still really don't think it is much harder to defend Rolkur than the risk of injury in eventing, caning, drugging, whatever western people are doing today whatever. It is just a matter of perspective. We all have our favorite wrongs we would like righted or abuses that think absolutely black and white are totally completely unacceptable. Until horses learn to speak we can blow hot air and talk and circles, say nothing and justify anything.

[sm]

"justify anything" ???

Spouting gibberish and being illogical is not the same as JUSTIFYING. To JUSTIFY is to:

-- To demonstrate or prove to be just, right, or valid.

-- in Law: To demonstrate sufficient legal reason for (an action taken).

But then, if someone doesn't distinguish between an ACCIDENT and PLANNED ABUSE, then I can see where they would have a problem with the concept of JUSTIFY.

[BarbB]

we can blow hot air and talk and circles, say nothing.


Yes :yes: you can. And very well too. :sleepy:

[lstevenson]

But then, if someone doesn't distinguish between an ACCIDENT and PLANNED ABUSE, then I can see where they would have a problem with the concept of JUSTIFY.



Yeah, I am having a hard time figuring out how anyone is unable to see the difference.

Or if they think that any situation we put a horse in that puts him in danger of having an accident is abuse, how they think that trailering a horse, or turning a horse out in the field where other horses might kick him and break his leg, is not abusive.

[J Swan]

Claire, I would never ever hope for anyone to get hurt- horses, people or otherwise. I just sometimes hope that some people will get a little embarrassment and dirty breeches for things they do to win that aren't very nice. It is more of a figurative butt bucked off than an actual one. I can't help it. I like to see the horses get a little revenge sometimes.

I still really don't think it is much harder to defend Rolkur than the risk of injury in eventing, caning, drugging, whatever western people are doing today whatever. It is just a matter of perspective. We all have our favorite wrongs we would like righted or abuses that think absolutely black and white are totally completely unacceptable. Until horses learn to speak we can blow hot air and talk and circles, say nothing and justify anything.

You wish harm on other people to justify your moral superiority? Do you moonlight as an abortion clinic bomber - because you sure sound like the type of person who would harm others to score a point on your own personal morality chart.

You're really creeping me out. I don't recall anyone asking you to hold a catharsis session.

[nhwr]

Many hold the opinion that RK is abusive. Many who think that way don't really know more about it than the photos they see on the net. The FEI has conducted an investigation the outcome of which says, though more info is needed, it doesn't seem to be a problem for the horse. It may be your opinion that the technique is abusive. That doesn't make it so. Getting more infomation would seem to be a good thing.

An accident is an unplanned or unforseen event. What happened in the photos I posted could be forseen. The constant safety studies, reviews, regulations and procedures (which I applaud) are an implicit admission of this. IMO, that means it is hard to justify them by calling them accidents. Just as you all are allowed to have opinions about rk, others are allowed to have opinions about this. And unless you are a member of the Taliban, we don't have to agree.

There have been a lot of other justifications (many of them false) offered on this thread; it isn't really that dangerous, the horses like it, not many horses die. Please. This is silly. It is dangerous. Isn't that why all the adrenalin junkies like it? Does that make it abusive? Maybe. I don't happen to believe it. But a case could certainly be made that it does.

There seems to a concensus among several poster that if you don't agree with their perspective you are ignorant, a troll or full of it. Those are the unsophisticated tactics of someone with an insecure position. That makes polite discussion tough sometimes. But if polite discussion is what you really want, try to stick to it. We'd all probably be happier and the level of discussion might actually rise :yes:

[BoysNightOut]

What irks me about your "discussion" is the title of this thread. You classify the crash photos as ABUSIVE TRAINING methods. Excuse me, but people don't "train" their horses to fall on x-country. I certainly don't teach my horse how to trip and fall over a jump. You don't seem to be understanding this.

Second, you said those crashes in the photos were forseen so they aren't accidents. Well, lets see. I drove through an intersection this morning with lots of roadwork going on. I could easily "foresee" somebody running a red-light because of brake failure and sideswiping my car. Yet, that would have been an ACCIDENT. A horse could have easily taken a mistep because of clumsiness and fallen on a x-country jump. That's forseeable, yet it's an ACCIDENT.

I ask you, do you ride nhwr? If so, than what you are doing is abusive in your logic, because ANY HORSE in ANY SPORT can crash, fall, and get hurt so bad he has to be put down. Stats of which sport has the most falls, injuries, deaths, etc doesn't mean anything because ALL sports carry risks with it.

I personally agree with the others and think this thread should be taken to the eventing forum since posting it on the dressage board was a total cop out...it has nothing to do with dressage, and why not have this "discussion" with those who know the sport of eventing inside and out.

[lstevenson]

An accident is an unplanned or unforseen event. What happened in the photos I posted could be forseen.



There seems to a concensus among several poster that if you don't agree with their perspective you are ignorant, a troll or full of it. Those are the unsophisticated tactics of someone with an insecure position.



:lol: nhwr, it's so funny that YOU would accuse others of unsophisticated tactics and an INSECURE POSITION! When you are the one that doesn't have a leg to stand on. Many posters have come back with intelligent comebacks to your rediculus claims, and questions to your warped way of thinking. And you have had NO ANSWERS. You just avoid the questions.

For the record, it's only if you or anyone else say absurd things that are absolutely not true that we call you ignorant or full of it. And OF COURSE you are a troll. Why else would you have started this whole thing. No good can come of it. Almost no one agrees with ANYTHING you have to say about this subject. I would say YOU have a very insecure position.


An example of a logical question that you dodged is :

If you think a fall on x-c is not an accident because it could be forseen, what about when someone hits you with their car when you're driving? Cars hit cars on the road thousands and thousands of times every day. It is certainly forseen that this will eventually happen to you. Is this NOT AN ACCIDENT?

[kkj]

No I don't work for Operation Rescue or feel morally superior to most people. Again I do not wish harm on anyone just a little humbling event. I would feel awful if anyone got hurt. Furthermore, I would never cause an event like that to happen. I am no where near a saint but I am not satan either.

If no one out there has seen someone do something like kick a dog and thought to themselves, "I wish the dog would bite that guy on the ass" well then I guess I am just a lot more evil than the rest of you. I gotta admit I have thoughts like that. I don't want to take a sling shot and shoot the horse on the butt so someone gets bucked off and I don't want them to get hurt. Haven't all of you had unscheduled dismounts in your life where you felt no pain but just a little embarrassment or appreciation for the big powerful horse that unseated you?


Eventing a horse is exposing it to a risk above and beyond the risk that other horses are exposed to in the course of training and competing in other disciplines (I am not including racing in here but dressage, show jumping, western events what have you.) Can someone who has an event horse insured for mortality tell me what their rate is? I just bet it is higher than dressage horses because lightbulb eventing is more dangerous. The chance of a horse getting injured on hard uneven footing at a high rate of speed over solid fences is higher than the dressage horse in the rubber arena.

All competitive horses are exposed to trailering risks. Hopefully all horses are exposed to the risks of turnout (I know somepeople never turn the poor horse out) This does not make the risk they are exposed to by eventing less. I mean if you blow second hand smoke in your kids face it is not less risky because your husband is slipping bourbon in the kids milk and that is more likely to kill the kid first. I don't know what the risk of accidents or death is in trailering horses. I really have no idea of that. This is a risk that all competitive horses are exposed to however and not a risk above and beyond the risk other riding horses must endure. If a horse is trailered only as often as it runs cross country, which one has a risk of injury of death that is higher? Does anyone know this? I have never in 30 years of owning horses had one get injured or killed in a trailer. I know we can paint a reality where trailering horses in abusive after all there is danger in it and many horses don't enjoy it. That argument is just too tenuous for me.

I did totally follow the logic of nwhr argument. Eventing accidents can be painted as abuse under the same criteria as rolkur can. In the course of riding horses for our selfish gain the horse suffers pain which is either deliberate or reasonably foreseeable.


The argument that horses are exposed to risks everyday in the pasture or in the trailer or of colic or whatever, so the risk of eventing is insignificant or acceptable does not fly with me. It is just an excuse to justify exposing the horse to the risk of eventing.

Again I think it is fine for people to choose to event a horse. I think it is amazing to watch a talented event team. Still I realize that statistically that rider and horse is more likely to get injured or die in the course of riding than I am with my dressage horse trotting across the diagonal. This does not make me better, morally superior or anything like that. It just makes me safer and a lot more wimpy. Which I know I am.

[lstevenson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kkj
However, if you will not acknowledge the stress it puts on the horse or the risks associated with it, then you are just not being totally honest with the horse, yourself or the rest of us.



"What about the stress and associated risks involved with putting a horse in a trailer and going 70 mph on the interstate? EXPLAIN TO ME how that's different."


kkj- Please answer this question.

If you think that trailer accidents don't happen EVERY DAY, or that horses don't get put down EVERY DAY because a horse kicked them in the field and broke their leg, you are, once again, showing your ignorance.

[claire]

[quote=nhwr] The FEI has conducted an investigation the outcome of which says, though more info is needed, it doesn't seem to be a problem. [quote]

nhwr, I am sorry; I am having difficulty understanding the way you continue to represent the FEI WORKSHOP and it's findings.
First, it was a workshop not a clinical or scientific study. Any conclusions drawn could not be respected as scientific proven fact.

Second, the conclusions drawn by the FEI are frankly stated with many qualifiers (ie. "In experienced hands" "not held for prolonged periods" )

So, when the FEI starts coaching it's "conclusions" with that many qualifiers...mmm,appears to me that they don't want to be holding the bag if RK does become a PR problem. Which gives ME pause in trying to understand this method/exercise.



[quote=nhwr]
An accident is an unplanned or unforseen event. What happened in the photos I posted could be forseen. The constant safety studies, reviews, regulations and procedures (which I applaud) are an implicit admission of this. IMO, that means it is hard to justify them by calling them accidents. Just as you all are allowed to have opinions about rk, others are allowed to have opinions about this. And unless you are a member of the Taliban, we don't have to agree. [quote]

I am not a member of the Taliban :confused: All I am asking is: what your point is? You seem to keep changing your mind: irony/humor/all disciplines have ugly moments/any type of equestrian activity is abuse...

And now the eventing accidents you posted could have been foreseen therefore are NOT accidents and so follows are no worse than a training method the FEI doesn't come straight out and condemn?

Am I understanding correctly?

[J Swan]

kkj, I get it. You're a fearful rider and stay in the arena out of guilt and fear - and therefore assume that if we are not like you - that we do not care for our horses as much as you do - because otherwise we'd stay in the arena like you.

I finally realize that you are in a completely different world than us. It takes all kinds to make a world - but here is a quote to ponder - I think you're in the "gray twilight" the author mentions:


Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those spirits who neither enjoy victory nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."

and for nhwr - you're manipulating the truth again, naughty girl. It is impossible to eliminate accidents. One can only do as much as possible to MINIMIZE them. Nothing the sport of eventing has done could possibly be interpreted to mean that they believed accidents would end.

And for the millionth time - take it to the eventing forum - but you know - I don't think you will. You're a coward too.

[short strided]

Again I think it is fine for people to choose to event a horse. I think it is amazing to watch a talented event team. Still I realize that statistically that rider and horse is more likely to get injured or die in the course of riding than I am with my dressage horse trotting across the diagonal. This does not make me better, morally superior or anything like that. It just makes me safer and a lot more wimpy. Which I know I am.

Don't assume you are any safer doing flat work. One month ago I was cantering my horse in the arena when he suddenly lost his footing, flipped over and landed with his head and neck pinned beneath him to the side... he proceeded to lay in this position for what felt like an eternity. He did eventually extract his head and get up. I consider the fact that he did not snap his neck in half to be a miracle.

The footing was great, it was a beautiful day and we were just hacking around. We had an accident.

[J Swan]

And according to COTH, Heike Kemmer and Bonaparte at the Aachen CDIO couldn't compete due to an injury suffered that Monday.

Oh - maybe it was a trailering accident - so wait - is that an accident? Or abuse. Or is it abuse if the injury occured during warm up - or in the stall - or what. Does it matter if a man was riding or a woman? We seem to have such fluid and convenient definitions of abuse....

and kkj - this really bothers me:

Haven't all of you had unscheduled dismounts in your life where you felt no pain but just a little embarrassment or appreciation for the big powerful horse that unseated you?


You know - I always have appreciation for the fact that I am on a big powerful horse. Falls hurt, and they are frightening; and they affect the confidence of the rider AND the horse.

[fiona]

Stop now, this is all getting very silly and makes no sense.

[slc2]

oh for heaven's sake, fiona, you actually find this to be silly or make no sense??????

"because you sure sound like the type of person who would harm others to score a point on your own personal morality chart."

hxf, i realize this was not directed at fiona. i am merely making a JOKE, and actually, agreeing with fiona, that this makes no sense and is silly.

[HXF]

Umm, I don't think it was fiona dear...

[lstevenson]

Don't assume you are any safer doing flat work. One month ago I was cantering my horse in the arena when he suddenly lost his footing, flipped over and landed with his head and neck pinned beneath him to the side... he proceeded to lay in this position for what felt like an eternity. He did eventually extract his head and get up. I consider the fact that he did not snap his neck in half to be a miracle.

The footing was great, it was a beautiful day and we were just hacking around. We had an accident.

short strided-

Is your horse ok?

[J Swan]

Stop now, this is all getting very silly and makes no sense.

I'll agree with you there.

[kkj]

Short strided, sorry to hear about that. Hope you are both OK. I know you can have an accident anywhere. I have had a horse fall on me in an arena too. Still it is much more likely to happen on a cross country horse, athletic ability of the horse and skill of the rider being equal.

J Swan, you really dislike me don't ya? I don't think falls are silly or something. I have fallen off of a horse before and not been hurt and just gotten up, dusted myself off and got back on. If you haven't done that for awhile, it will put things back into perspective a little. I have also been bucked off in an arena and been hurt, didn't think that was funny either. I am not saying that you need to get bucked off to respect the horse just that it can be a good reality check sometimes.

I like your poem. I admit I am wimpier than a lot of event riders. I am afraid of big cross country courses. Give me a good capable horse and a training level course and I am game. I am not as wimpy as a lot of people. I have started a lot of horses myself, done extreme skiing, and jumped a stadium courses up to 4'6". I am afraid of flying and swimming in the ocean and I prefer jumps that fall down. On balance I think I have had a pretty full adventursome life thus far but I am sure some people who have well executed an advanced event course have me beat big time here.

Lstevenson, I have made all the arguments I can for the trailering senario. I realize they are not super strong arguments and you have a point. I will just again say that eventing exposes the horse to additional risk for the benefit of the rider. I don't know what the risk is in compared to trailering and I will not make up statistics. Again what is the average rate of mortality insurance for an event horse? I think dressage horses are like 3%. Again I admit with the trailering senario you have made a valid point and reassert again, I don't think eventing is abusive.

Perhaps it would have been better if nhwrs original argument showed horses not crashing but merely having hard rubs on the fences. Event horses hit and slide over the fences all the time. I don't think it normally hurts them but they gotta feel it some. The eventers know it is going to happen as they boot up and grease the horse for it. I don't think it is abuse in anyway but it can't be fun like a massage or something. Maybe Rolkur is just like that, a little uncomfortable thing horses endure in the course of their work at the hands of people.

I don't know if Rolkur is long term damaging. I would like more research of course. I do think it is less abusive than a lot of things we do to horses. It is not pretty and I don't like it. I don't know however what it accomplishes or if it truly works (seems to in Ankys case) or whatever.

[Kathy Johnson]

Take it to the eventing forum? Why? The one thing that I am ABSOLUTELY positive of is that the eventers are perfectly capable of reading the dressage board and cross posting to this thread if they feel like it. In fact, they've done it before. But you probably aren't going to get more than a shrug, and a "yep, it's dangerous." I think that's why they aren't responding as you'd like.

Most of the eventers I know and coach fully understand the risks, the odds, and the dangers. They don't deny them; it's part of the glory of the sport. I too am having trouble following of all of these non sequiturs. What are people trying to say? If you are trying to promote eventing, talking about its safety record probably isn't the best way. Comparing the risk of galloping x-country to leaving a horse in a pasture or putting a horse on a trailer is an insult to eventers.

[lstevenson]

Comparing the risk of galloping x-country to leaving a horse in a pasture or putting a horse on a trailer is an insult to eventers.


Huh?!? An insult how?

Once again I will try to explain. If putting the horse in a situation where an injury is possible is ABUSE, then putting a horse in a trailer, or out in the field where he may be kicked and seriously injured is also ABUSE.

Are you saying this is not so, because the risk of injury is higher? If so, then who makes the call on where to draw the line?

[Blugal]

I had my upper level event horse insured for mortality at 3% for the years he did Training-Intermediate and FEI events.

Your argument doesn't hold water, kkj.

[J Swan]

J Swan, you really dislike me don't ya?



It would be fair to say I don't understand you.


blugal - you're right. When I evented I had my horse insured with Marshall and Sterling - - ironically - the whole time we were out galumphing across various weeny courses - the only claim he had was an impaction colic. In the dead of winter.

Most claims are still colic and laminitis - and unless things have changed - those are still the leading cause of death in horses. But if I'm wrong - please correct me.

I'd rather engage in a sport that conducts exhaustive and intense analysis of the welfare of horse at every level and every event - than engage in a sport in which questionable methods are not subjected to the same intense scrutiny to ensure the welfare of the horse is paramount.

Heck - people get eliminated in warm up for accidentally jumping a warm up fence the wrong way. And any suspected abuse or questionable actions are reported to stewards. You're done. That's it. Take your toys and go home.

Perhaps it's time the sport of dressage did the same thing. I don't think it's as noble and art as it holds itself out to be.

[Sannois]

Not with Rollkur out for all to see.. Oh well except the recesses of the training barns! :no:
Perhaps it's time the sport of dressage did the same thing. I don't think it's as noble and art as it holds itself out to be.

[short strided]

short strided-

Is your horse ok?

He is actually doing very well. Nothing was fractured. And all of the swelling in his neck has gone down. The day after the accident he looked like a snake that had swallowed an egg.:eek:

He will get a check up next week. I am anticipating much chiropratic work in the future...

[Kathy Johnson]

If putting the horse in a situation where an injury is possible is ABUSE, then putting a horse in a trailer, or out in the field where he may be kicked and seriously injured is also ABUSE

I'm sure I'm sending you round and round the banana tree. :) Bear with me. I disagree with the first premise... that putting a horse in a situation where an injury is possible is abuse. I can't buy that argument, so it will be hard to buy any conclusions made from it.

Any injury to a horse does not always constitute abuse. And abuse doesn't always have to injure a horse physically. I think tying the horse's head to his tail over night or tying his head to cinderblock over night to tire his neck is abusive, but it probably doesn't hurt him physically. In other words, abuse does not always mean injury and injury does not always mean abuse.

As I've said before, I don't believe eventing is abusive and I don't believe rollkur is abusive, although both can be abused. I disagree with the OP's title that eventing is abusive.

But there is a big distinction in probability rather than possibility.

Certainly the risk of injury is higher in eventing than in standing around a pasture given the odds, the number of times we put our horses in a pasture vs. the number of times we event.

I think your questions really hit the heart of this discussion.

Are you saying this is not so, because the risk of injury is higher? If so, then who makes the call on where to draw the line?

If an injury is probable doing anything with a horse, something needs to change, whether we call it abuse, neglect, cruelty, mistreatment or simple misuse. Who makes the call? My easy answer is that every rider makes an individual decision of where the line is and when they have crossed it. But, people don't always self-moderate so well, so the governing bodies of the sport step in.

I think many of the dressage riders are dis-satisfied with the FEI's "study" of rollkur. They want to see changes made, but it isn't happening at the upper levels or by conventional channels, because it wins. So, the grass roots movement will continue to grow and we will continue to see rollkur discussions on these boards. I think the anti-rollkur people are going down the wrong road calling rollkur abuse.

I think if we look at the training impact on the purity of the gaits, then rollkur would no longer win. If dressage judges would judge the purity of the gaits instead of the extravagance of the gaits, things would turn over quickly. But instead, the FEI dressage committee has committed an atrocity, giving judges poetic license to judge horses on "HAPPINESS," a clear anthropomorphism, a totally subjective judging standard, and one of the biggest loads of happy horse s**t to come down the pike in a long time. I'm sure their intentions were good, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now we have Sjeff Jansen bragging about the Awards for Happiness he has won using his rollkur methods. It makes me very sad.

[claire]

I think if we look at the training impact on the purity of the gaits, then rollkur would no longer win. If dressage judges would judge the purity of the gaits instead of the extravagance of the gaits, things would turn over quickly.

Now, if we could move the discussion toward the training impact of RK on the purity of gaits; and the direction the Dressage discipline seems to be moving... :yes:

[J Swan]

[QUOTE=Kathy Johnson

I think many of the dressage riders are dis-satisfied with the FEI's "study" of rollkur. They want to see changes made, but it isn't happening at the upper levels or by conventional channels, because it wins. So, the grass roots movement will continue to grow and we will continue to see rollkur discussions on these boards. I think the anti-rollkur people are going down the wrong road calling rollkur abuse.

I think if we look at the training impact on the purity of the gaits, then rollkur would no longer win. If dressage judges would judge the purity of the gaits instead of the extravagance of the gaits, things would turn over quickly. But instead, the FEI dressage committee has committed an atrocity, giving judges poetic license to judge horses on "HAPPINESS," a clear anthropomorphism, a totally subjective judging standard, and one of the biggest loads of happy horse s**t to come down the pike in a long time. I'm sure their intentions were good, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Now we have Sjeff Jansen bragging about the Awards for Happiness he has won using his rollkur methods. It makes me very sad.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

It may be a stretch to call Rollkur outright abuse - in the criminal sense - but the extremes seen are simply inappropriate. I'm hoping the FEI just comes out and says, in black and white - what is permitted and what is not. I don't care for the hemming and hawing and "happiness" stuff.

[lstevenson]

I disagree with the first premise... that putting a horse in a situation where an injury is possible is abuse. I can't buy that argument, so it will be hard to buy any conclusions made from it.



Well, so do I!!! That has been my point all along.

But certain ignorant people have been saying that because of the risk of injury, x-c is abusive. And I was just giving other examples, so that common sense would hopefully prevail (but I guess with a few individuals, common sense is a bit too much to hope for).

[kkj]

Kathy Johnson, very well thought out and well written. Totally agreed here.

I have a couple of honest Rolkur questions I am not an expert on gaits or dressage or Rolkur and I would like to get some honest feedback on theses questions.

1. How does Rolkur make the gaits more extravagent?
2. How come it does not seem to ruin the purity of all the horses gaits? I agree with Salinero and some of the others but not with Lingh. At the World Cup in Vegas his gaits seemed both pure and extravagent to me and two FEI trainers I was sitting with agreed. We all thought he should have won. I agree Brettina was correct but not extravagent and Salinero seemed not as correct and a bit tense. Does anyone else think that Lingh has very correct extravagent gaits? Does anyone know if Edward Gal uses Rolkur on him? I have seen pictures of him doing it with Gribaldi but not Lingh.

[slc2]

"ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

if you do, prepare to be called names.

[DressageGuy]

"ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

if you do, prepare to be called names.


Hello pot, meet kettle...

[fiona]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaagh!

Please stop, although that last comment was funny which is always good.

[Sannois]

"ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

if you do, prepare to be called names.
slc! You people do the EXACT same thing! You cant have your cake and eat it too! :no:

[Sannois]

Hello pot, meet kettle...
You beat me to it!!! :winkgrin:

[J Swan]

Of fer chrissakes, slc - go take some Prozac and start another thread whining about how only one point of view is allowed on the forum so you can be the center of attention. Why does it gall you so much that there might possibly be some sort of consensus developing????? Never mind - don't answer that.

[DressageGuy]

Look, we all know slc is nothing but a keyboard jockey. Oodles of advice, but is only friendly if you agree with HER methods. Never posted one original thought that I've ever seen.

[lstevenson]

"ignorant people " = "disagrees with lstevenson"

if you do, prepare to be called names.


Actually, slc "ignorant" means that they are showing a lack of knowledge and understanding about the subject. Which there has been a lot of by a few certain people on this thread. People shouldn't make statements about things they don't understand.

[bigdreamer]

i have found that anyone who actually asks a genuine question about rk goes ignored. i posted mine 3 times and gave up, and no one has responded to kkj. YOU HAVE YOUR CHANCE TO STAND BEHIND RK BY TELLING US, and yet you don't. that tells me you've got nothing to stand behind the genuine questions we've asked.

*sigh*

if you want to go ahead and tell me i'm abusive for eventing my horse, go ahead. I'd rather be an abusive eventer than an abusive dressage rider. at least my horse and I are having more fun. :yes:

[slc2]

people are at this point not going to do that and get ripped another ******* and be called a horse killer abuser etc.

[Sannois]

i have found that anyone who actually asks a genuine question about rk goes ignored. i posted mine 3 times and gave up, and no one has responded to kkj. YOU HAVE YOUR CHANCE TO STAND BEHIND RK BY TELLING US, and yet you don't. that tells me you've got nothing to stand behind the genuine questions we've asked.

*sigh*

if you want to go ahead and tell me i'm abusive for eventing my horse, go ahead. I'd rather be an abusive eventer than an abusive dressage rider. at least my horse and I are having more fun. :yes:
a specific Question about the Videos on the other two threads numerous times, and am flatly ignored. BUT I think I got my answer on one of them and it sure tells alot..:yes:

[bigdreamer]

slc, are you saying that in response to me? I posted my questions first back on page 8? I think. I would not personally rip anyone a new ********, ever. unless they tried to personally take a gun to my horses head ;) I came onto this thread trying to UNDERSTAND, and then nobody, not one person, tried to answer my questions. then they started saying eventing is abusive, and it went off topic from there. The only reason I, at this point, think rk might be bad is because noone has tried to show me the good side or answer my questions. At the beginning of this thread I had no opinion b/c i've never dealt with it before.


so why won't someone try to use facts here to defend rk, inspite of getting torn a new *****? they seem to be fine with getting torn a new ****** by calling us eventers abusive. what could it hurt to try and stand up?

[J Swan]

people are at this point not going to do that and get ripped another ******* and be called a horse killer abuser etc.

Oh slc - more histrionics? You think people who dislike this method haven't been ripped apart as well? At least we're starting to have some discussion and questions - and you know what? When you don't start poking people with sharp sticks to get some attention there actually does seem to be some interesting stuff to read.

[Judi]

Blugal no I would agree that a lot of dressage horses do not make it to Grand Prix because the get injured or don't hold up. There are a lot of horses in all disciplines that have the talent, work ethic whatever but don't make it to the highest level because they get injured or don't hold up. Many many dressage horses will have hock problems, suspensorys, ring bone etc etc before they get to Grand Prix.

I agree that some eventers don't make it because they have the wrong owner or are happy doing novice or whatever. Those things are not mutually exclusive. Some horses don't make it to advance because they have a crummy rider or one that is happy at novice and some don't make it due to injuries or not holding up. Some don't make it because they have a lot of talent but are chicken or because they have a ton of guts but are a klutz.
Eventing is harder on the horses than dressage all other things being equal. That does not mean that it is abusive or you are a horrible person for participating.

However, if you will not acknowledge the stress it puts on the horse or the risks associated with it, then you are just not being totally honest with the horse, yourself or the rest of us.

I don't think lstephens is saying we eventers do not acknowledge the stress put on our horses or the risks. As a matter of fact since I've made the move to eventing from Hunter Jumper land I've never seen a group of horseman more focused on thier horses well being and safety. At our events and horse trials... The stewards check bits, spurs, whip length. Helmets must be regulation. Horse must have thier numbers on at all times and only ridden by the competitor. Technical Judges will pull any rider who is out of control or endangering or abusing their horse. (One of our riders dropped a crop before a down bank into water and went to encourage her horse down by using the reign with a little slap on the shoulder and was given a warning). You are not allowed to seesaw and yank on horses mouths.. no more than 3 hits. It is all very closely watched.

After each performance horses are walked, cooled, wrapped... poulticed.. and this is all done by the competitor/rider. Everyone is hands on and knows every inch of their horses legs. On 3 days the horses are jogged before stadium for soundness. In classic long format the horses do roads and tracks and are tested for fitness and spun in the 10 minute box if they don't pass.

Does that sound like a discipline that isn't aware that thier horses must be in the soundest condition to perform? No... we are aware of our discipline's risks... and have put many many checks and balances in place to limit those risks. Still accidents happen. As it did to Barbaro in racing. It's sad and unfortunate every single time. And I assure you No one looks the other way... drops their eyes and shakes their head. We pull together and ask if conditions could be better to avoid it next time... I've never been involved in any equine discipline that had such internal audits as this one.

So as much as the eventing spills and thrills video's make good sport for those in other disciplines to snark at I can assure you event horses are some of the best cared for equine athletes in any discipline. I also have never seen sooo many senior citizens still competing well into thier twenties. I just congratulated a girl at Copper Meadows last weekend as we were getting pinned in the Training Divisions. She won 2nd in Junior Novice on her "ever young" 22 year old gelding. Here is a picture of him happily galloping through the water complex to his next jump

https://www.capturedmomentphoto.com/cgi-bin/store/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Equestrian/Copper_Meadows_(Ramona,CA)/June_2006/136_(Sally_J_and_Dantes_Peak)&image=136-MG_8506.JPG&img=&tt=&tfile=tn_136-MG_8506.jpg

I guarantee you... these horse WANT to do their job. All of our horses at my barn drag us on to the trailer to go to a show. They get walked, grazed and fussed over for 4 days of an event. And when they return they come back happy happy horses. I left the Hunter world because my horse was bored and HATED it. Moved to Jumpers where he was happy for a while.. but then got bored. Now he LOVES his job. How can I tell? He runs to the stall door, dives into his bit... and enthusiastically and longingly looks out to the cross country course on XC day... and when it's his turn to go into the box... he is sooo thrilled.. and bursts out of that box without any urging from me. He looks for each and every fence with a "hang on I got it" attitude. And when we finish his ears are up and he's just marching ready to do it again... That's how I know my horse loves his job. And that's why he is now an eventer.

[lstevenson]

Judi-

Welcome to the dark side!:)

[trailblazzer]

What right to dressage people have to critcize ANY discipline? We are one of the worst when it comes to lack of horsemanship. At least eventers ride outside of the ring, jump, cross train, etc. Dressage is just crank n spank. Look at the rollkur videos if you're not convinced.

[Judi]

And shame on the people who consider Rollkur correct. It's about as correct as poling with a nail studded rail. Yep - those legs will come off the ground and that horse will win - but at what cost....

JSwan... this is what I kept thinking as I was trying to find a comparison. Polling horses to jump with tighter knees. Sure it doesn't kill them. And boy do they jump tighter... does that make it right? Western horses have thier heads tied between thier legs in a stall for hours.. sure they have low low heads in Western Pleasure classes... does that make it right?

These kind of training methods are a better comparison. A training method forced upon a horse that puts them into a position that causes them stress to create an unnatural reaction that makes them perform better.

[lstevenson]

Polling horses to jump with tighter knees. Sure it doesn't kill them. And boy do they jump tighter... does that make it right? Western horses have thier heads tied between thier legs in a stall for hours.. sure they have low low heads in Western Pleasure classes... does that make it right?

These kind of training methods are a better comparison. A training method forced upon a horse that puts them into a position that causes them stress to create an unnatural reaction that makes them perform better.



Yes, these are much more intelligent comparisons.

[Judi]

Judi-

Welcome to the dark side!:)


Oh and by the way lstevenson... you are now my official new hero.

You go girl.

: )

LOVE the dark side....

[DressageGuy]

What right to dressage people have to critcize ANY discipline? We are one of the worst when it comes to lack of horsemanship. At least eventers ride outside of the ring, jump, cross train, etc. Dressage is just crank n spank. Look at the rollkur videos if you're not convinced.

trailblather, your ignorance continues to be underwhelming. You judge the WHOLE sport of dressage based on those few that use this method with their horses? Most dressage riders I know hack out on trails, and some even jump. I'm a pretty die-hard dressage rider, and I've jumped my horse 4' 3" before. I took him out on trail once with 3 other "bomb-proof" QH's, and he (a TB) was the calmest one of the bunch. Try and engage a brain cell or two (if you have that many) before spouting off your garbage.

[trailblazzer]

trailblather, your ignorance continues to be underwhelming. You judge the WHOLE sport of dressage based on those few that use this method with their horses? Most dressage riders I know hack out on trails, and some even jump. I'm a pretty die-hard dressage rider, and I've jumped my horse 4' 3" before. I took him out on trail once with 3 other "bomb-proof" QH's, and he (a TB) was the calmest one of the bunch. Try and engage a brain cell or two (if you have that many) before spouting off your garbage.
DressageGay, please explain how dressage people are in a position to criticize other disciplines. My argument is that we should clean our own house first. Big lick looks delightful compared to what I see going on in the dressage world. Yet it is the dressage people who act like they are better than everyone. How gay.

[kkj]

I'll ask again. These are totally honest questions, not with judgement in them. I don't want to attack anyone for the answers give. I want to know if anyone knows why Rolkur would ruin one horse's gaits and not another? Does it only work for some horses or what? Do any of you know whether Edward Gal uses Rolkur on Lingh? I think that horse has very pure gaits. Am I wrong about that?

I have a couple of honest Rolkur questions I am not an expert on gaits or dressage or Rolkur and I would like to get some honest feedback on theses questions.

1. How does Rolkur make the gaits more extravagent?
2. How come it does not seem to ruin the purity of all the horses gaits? I agree with Salinero and some of the others but not with Lingh. At the World Cup in Vegas his gaits seemed both pure and extravagent to me and two FEI trainers I was sitting with agreed. We all thought he should have won. I agree Brettina was correct but not extravagent and Salinero seemed not as correct and a bit tense. Does anyone else think that Lingh has very correct extravagent gaits? Does anyone know if Edward Gal uses Rolkur on him? I have seen pictures of him doing it with Gribaldi but not Lingh.

[MyReality]

Does it matter? Do we have to list all the dressage bads, and WP bads, and various other evils in this horse world? I agree with dressageGuy... who give a damn about rollkur? How many of us really use it? If you are a true horseman, you know where the bads are, you know whether the person is a real dressage rider the minute she/he opens her/his mouth... and there are plenty of people on this board doing all the preaching and teaching knowing next to nothing.

I remember there was a thread about how to ride a schoolmaster and I read one or two comments (and don't remember who that was), I am 100% sure their posters has never ridden a schoolmaster... 100% sure. It's not like I have ridden that many of them, I'm not ashamed to say I'm not that good at it either. But I did ride a couple of them in differnet parts of the world and they are all trained and ridden very similarly. You would be amazed.

All the dressage practitioners I know, Amateurs or professionals, training level or GP level, we share similar root. Very very few of us will call each other DQ's or call each other crank/spank... we know what works and what doesn't. There is a level of knowledge base that is widely accepted, and there are many variations on techniques. We don't bash each other: your way sucks! because I've seen different techniques work on different horses and riders. You know what to dis-regard cuz it's probably not a good thing.

[MyReality]

I have limited knowledge on RK. I don't practice it I don't believe in it. But based on what I read, I don't believe it improves the gait or makes the gait more extravagant, either intentioanlly or not. I have a slight suspision it suppresses hind movement (rather than promoting front) because of how any extreme flexing of the neck disconnects the horse and reduces throughness. I also have no knowledge of whether RK is supposed to be or has been a long term training tool that will produce long term gait changes.

[trailblazzer]

First of all, you're judging the whole sport of dressage based on the actions of a few. 99% of us don't ride rollkur and never will. So that right there, leaves you with no leg to stand on. Again, you make VAST VAST generalizations because of what a few people do. Which, to my way of thinking, shows that you just have a problem with dressage in general, and judging from your other posts, I seem to be right on that. Please, show me some evidence that ALL of dressage is just crank and spank. I'll sit here wait forever, because there IS no evidence.
OK whatever. None of this changes the fact that dressage people are in NO position to criticize ANYONE. DQs looove to look down on other disciplines, all the while repeating that dressage is the one true way. OK, then how come "upper level" dressage is so horrid? Why are dressage horses so unsound? Why are they such nutcases? Why are the riders so incompetent? I guess dressage isn't as special as we were lead to believe...

[Sannois]

I have limited knowledge on RK. I don't practice it I don't believe in it. But based on what I read, I don't believe it improves the gait or makes the gait more extravagant, either intentioanlly or not. I have a slight suspision it suppresses hind movement (rather than promoting front) because of how any extreme flexing of the neck disconnects the horse and reduces throughness. I also have no knowledge of whether RK is supposed to be or has been a long term training tool that will produce long term gait changes.
I have no idea because I still cannot get one person to tell me in all these RK threads, what the ultimate purpose of RK is. Why is it used, who decides what horses need it, and what is the end result supposed to be in the competition ring! :confused:

[DressageGuy]

OK whatever. None of this changes the fact that dressage people are in NO position to criticize ANYONE. DQs looove to look down on other disciplines, all the while repeating that dressage is the one true way. OK, then how come "upper level" dressage is so horrid? Why are dressage horses so unsound? Why are they such nutcases? Why are the riders so incompetent? I guess dressage isn't as special as we were lead to believe...


You must have had some really horrible experiences with dressage to make such sweeping, ignorant generalizations. So you think horses like Brentina show "horrible" upper-level dressage? I could probably list off a dozen wonderfully trained/ridden horses at GP, and you'd still insist you're right. Dressage horses, if ridden and trained correctly, and being free from congenital defects, should not be unsound. I've never met a single upper-level horse (and I have met many) that was a "nutcase". Yes, some may be hotter than others, but not all are. What riders are incompetent? Would you consider Debbie, Guenter, Lisa, et al incompetent? You love to make sweeping generalizations and have absoluetly ZERO evidence to back it up. Though I guess looking back on your past posts, that's how you always operate, and I really shouldn't be surprised. Go back to your cave, troll.

[Erin]

What the hell is the matter with you people?

Rule #1: be nice, be polite, be respectful.

Trailblazer just got a month's vacation from COTH for her antics, but DressageGuy, you're not much better. Stop telling people they're pulling stuff out of orifices and attempt to converse like an adult, please. And watch your mouth.

[DressageGuy]

I apologize, I tried to control my temper, but some things set me off.

[poopoo]

That's it, Dressage Guy!!!! You are now suspended and must stay after school and write "I promise to be courteous, even to the morons. I promise to be courteous, even to the morons." 500 times on the blackboard, using good penmanship too! White chalk only, none of the colored stuff!

[Erin]

poopoo, do you, for some odd reason, think "be nice, be polite, be respectful" does NOT apply to you?

[slc2]

" have no idea because I still cannot get one person to tell me in all these RK threads, what the ultimate purpose of RK is. Why is it used, who decides what horses need it, and what is the end result supposed to be in the competition ring"

sannois, could you please stop insisting on this? it isn't true. at this point, you're simply saying something that is, well, entirely false. you have been told dozens of times, but you choose not to listen, and then say no one told you. actually, you've been saying that for quite a few months now. does saying that ..ah.... DO something for you?

however, MOST of the 'reasons' given for doing this are no more than horse****. i do have to admit that, but the reasons given that are horse****, aren't the reasons given by the people who actually know anything about rollkur. MOST people know very little about rollkur. a starry eyed student of nicole uphoffs told me rollkur would be MARVELOUS for my horse and i'd love it, when i told someone more aware of the technique, she said absolutely not, don't be doing that now or it's going to turn into a mess, that has to wait til a, b and c are resolved.

it isn't done to subjugate the horse and it isn't done to make him obedient, and it isn't done because women aren't as strong as men, and it isn't done to make the horse settle down.

slc