Horse is in terrible pain-owner will not put down. -UPDATE 1/11/07 Page 5 [Archive]

Buglet

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:38 AM

I have a horse boarded at my facility that needs to be put down asap. The mare is 18, and has terrible arthritis. Her right knee is three times the size it should be, and the joint capsule is protruding. She has taken all of her weight off of that knee and put the weight on the other leg. The other front leg is just as bad. Due to having to hold the majority of the mare's weight, her suspensory has pretty much been stretched beyond it's limit. Her ankle only sits about three inches above the ground. :cry: The mare can not trot or canter, she is very lame at the walk. Her knee is calcifying, so she has a hard time bending it. In addition, she is dropping weight. She is being treated for ulcers (I believe they are from the pain/stress), and gets unlimited hay/alfalfa, 4 qts of "senior" feed twice a day, and plenty of grass turnout. The owners current vet said that she just has arthritis, and does not need pain meds and should not be put down. He said that the mare will let us know when she is ready to go. I suggested using a different vet. The owner had my vet do digital x-rays. My vet told her that the horse should be put down right away. He felt that the suspensory would snap at any point, and then the mare would be in incredible pain, and would not be able to walk at all. He also told her that the mare was in a great deal of pain, and that it was inhumane to let her suffer. We went ahead and scheduled to put the mare down the following day. The morning we were supposed to put her down, the owner called her old vet, and he convinced her not to go through with the euthanasia! It has been about one month since my vet said to put her down. The mare is still gimping around. Is there anything I can do? I hate to tell them to move to another farm because I don't think the mare can withstand a trailer ride, but I hate seeing her in so much pain.:(

Prieta

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:07 AM

Do you live near university where they have a vet school? If so, can you recruit their professor to come over to write a report on the mare's condition? that might help the owner see the severity of the pain. The owner sounds like she will listen to a person with authority. Or, you can recruit your friends nad have them write down what they think. The mare will thank you.

belgianpaintwhat?

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:15 AM

Poor mare.....
She isnt on any pain medication?
i would have your veterinarian talk to the owner again. I wouldnt want to put her on a trailer either. You sound like you are this mares only hope!

Coup De Des

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:15 AM

Talk to the owner about pain management. She needs to at least do this. Then perhaps you can arrange a little too many pain meds out in a nice field one day. Her heart just gave out you know. She just lay down and went to sleep, is a nice story.

Phaxxton

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:23 AM

How about convincing her to get a third opinion?

MayS

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:29 AM

Having a horse put down is a VERY hard decision for a person to make. Having someone who isn't a close friend have their vet examine & schedule euthanasia for your horse isn't making it any easier.

Do you think the owner is lying about her own vet's advice? If her own vet truly did say the horse isn't in excruciating pain, then you have to respect that her vet & your vet have two different opinons. Vets do not always agree. That's what their advice is called an "opinion" not a fact. The owner & owner's vet could truly believe the horse isn't suffering.

Is the horse still eating OK? Is she able to stand & move around?

Instead of ganging up on her with the help of your vet, why not try taking the friend approach and offer support. Get to know her. Try to understand her reluctance. Maybe she'll reveal the real reason she's reluctant to let the horse go... maybe you can (nicely) solve those roadblocks. Be there for her when she is ready to let go of her horse.

Talk to the owner about pain management. She needs to at least do this. Then perhaps you can arrange a little too many pain meds out in a nice field one day. Her heart just gave out you know. She just lay down and went to sleep, is a nice story.

Do NOT overdose the horse on pain meds yourself in an effort to kill her. It's dishonest, illegal, and it violates any & all trust the owner has in you. How would you feel if you found out another boarder OD'd your horse intentionally on a drug because she felt your horse was getting too old and needed to go?! :eek:

You're also not a vet so you wouldn't know the right dosage or drugs to *painlessly* have her pass away. Get it wrong and you have a horse who is now very sick and may be in more pain from the screwed up kill attempt. At the very least you're risking turning the mare into a horse with liver damage. That is cruel.

dawglover

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:33 AM

Take away all this woman's pain meds...then kick her right square in the knee and let HER limp around. See how she likes it.
And the above applies to her vet as well...WTF???
I pray that someone there at the barn is kind enough to at least slip a couple of bute tabs into the mares feed.
Jingles to the old gal.

Buglet

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:41 AM

I have given her the number of three different vets, and recommended getting another opinion. She said that her vet has worked with the horse ever since she bought the mare, and that she completely trusts his opinions/recommendations. I hate this vet! The digital x-rays that my vet did showed a couple of small fractures in the one ankle that has the suspensory damage. He showed the owner the fractures, and she acknowledged that she could see them on the x-ray. She emailed her vet the digitals, and he said that he could not see a single facture. When the mare started dropping weight and going off of her feed, the vet said it was because the grain being left out too long was making her colic. I put the grain in the stalls about 15 min before the horses come in to eat it. It is stored in feed bins. I told her that the vet doesn't know what he is talking about, and that the horse has ulcers, and that is why it doesn't want to eat. The owner asked the vet to check for ulcers, and WOW she does indeed have them. What an idiot! Anyway, we treated the mare for them, and now she is back to eating normally, but is still in a ton of pain. Her vet said that on really bad days, the mare can have 1gram of Banamine paste. EVERYDAY IS A BAD DAY! A couple of the other boarders have talked to her about the mare, and all of them told her that it was unfair to the mare to be in such pain. My horses's chiropractor (also a vet) warned the owner about having animal control called on her. After hearing this, the owner contacted her vet who wrote a letter stating that he has seen the mare, and acknowledges she has arthritis, but in his opinion there was no need to put her down at this time. The owner gave me this letter, and also posted one on our bulletin board. The owner is extremely nice, and truly loves her horse, I just think that she is not ready to let go, and sadly the horse has to be the one who suffers.:cry: I am very good friends with the owner. I have been the one there who holds her hand while she cries over the horse. About a 3 weeks ago the mare came in with her suspensory extremely swollen. The owner cried and cried and said that "this is probably it". The vet said that it was just a strain, and to give the horse stall rest for two weeks. All the swelling is gone, but the mare is still just as lame as she was before she got hurt. The mare is so lame that she no longer needs the farrier because she drags her feet. I do give her a bute every other day. I dont want to give her too much because of her past ulcers. The owner truly believes that the horse will let her know when it is time, but I think that the owner is going to wait until the horse's legs have given out, and she can't make it in from the field.

Swale01

Jun. 5, 2006, 10:41 AM

If I were in your shoes and assuming that the pain she's in is as obvious to all other rational people as it is to you - when I got desperate enough I'd tell her that you couldn't stand the sight of the mare struggling anymore and that if she wouldn't put her out of her misery, she needs to find a new home for her.

I know this is risky on the surface because the fear is that this mare could get shuttled off to somewhere without a person like you looking out for her, but the gamble is that this woman who owns her would be too embarrassed to move a horse as crippled and in agony to a place with strangers who would judge her for it, and would then do the right thing. And - I would think that most decent places would refuse to take a mare like that, so she might not like what she'd find as an option if she even bothered to look.

I know this approach has its flaws, but I'd resort to it, as a last resort. You know this woman and could best judge if she's be embarrassed to move this mare.

Daydream Believer

Jun. 5, 2006, 10:54 AM

I agree with Swale. I would insist that the mare be moved from my property if she was not humanely destroyed by a certain date. You could say that it is upsetting other boarders or something...and hopefully you could force the issue with the owner and I suspect that giving an ultimatum like that would probably have the desired effect. It's an intolerable situation that a horse should be allowed to suffer with no hope of recovery.

colliemom

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:08 AM

Is there any way you could get your vet to talk to her vet? Professional to ... um ... "professional"?

EqTrainer

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:20 AM

I agree with everyone who says give her an euthanization or evict notice. I also would NOT be slipping this horse bute. If she already has ulcer issues, that is the last thing she needs.

Poor thing.

Phaxxton

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:21 AM

I agree with everyone who says give her an euthanization or evict notice. I also would NOT be slipping this horse bute. If she already has ulcer issues, that is the last thing she needs.

Poor thing.

I'm also in agreement. I'd not be a party to letting the mare suffer any longer... Maybe that'll wake up the owner to at least get a third opinion.

Critters Everywhere

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:27 AM

Poor mare! :(

It's amazing the torture people put their animals through because they love them but have no empathy.

I have PM'd you a couple articles from The Horse magazine on euthanasia and knowing when it's time. Print them out & give them to your boarder.

I would try an 'intervention' with her before giving her an eviction notice. I would include all of the boarders, a couple vets, animal control and/or some people from any respectable equine rescue group in the area, and whoever else you feel she might listen to. Sure, ganging up on her isn't 'nice', but what she's putting this mare through is downright cruel.

bird4416

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:38 AM

Sounds like her vet doesn't want to give up the fees he is getting to come out and look at the horse. I hope this isn't the case but it sounds like it.:( The woman needs to get a third opinion on this horse.

ChocoMare

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:38 AM

Truly loving your horse means not being selfish when it comes their time :no:

I truly know it's hard but when you put the horse first, their comfort is all that matters...even unto that last shot.

I agree with the "intervention" attempt. Someone must get through to her :cry:

Buglet

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:48 AM

The crazy thing is that the owner doesn't think that the mare is that bad. The owner is fairly new to the horse ownership world. She was actually thinking about moving to Florida and taking the horse with her! The vet actuaaly said that the mare could withstand the trailer ride!:mad: The mare constantly trips, and has fallen down three times while just being led to her field. The facility she came from is only about two miles away from mine. The owner moved the mare to my place because the old facility only has standing stalls, no grass, and all horses are required to have a weekly training session (even this lame mare!). I'm afraid that if I push her to move the mare, she will just take her back there, which would be a horrible situation for the mare (not to mention that I have three other boarders who recently moved from that farm to mine because of the conditions). Maybe I will have my vet call hers to discuss the situation. Thanks for all the suggestions!

Babs

Jun. 5, 2006, 02:19 PM

Truly loving your horse means not being selfish when it comes their time :no:

So true. If she had ever seen a euthanasia, perhaps she would not be so hesitant. The horse truly seems to feel no pain and is dead by the time it hits the ground. It is a much better decision than to let the animal suffer so.

alysheba

Jun. 5, 2006, 02:25 PM

I would have someone put the horse down, or do it yourself if necessary. I don't know if you can get the medication OTC.?????????????/

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jun. 5, 2006, 02:30 PM

catknsn

Jun. 5, 2006, 04:11 PM

If they are falling down when being led to the pasture, obviously they are in too poor condition to even enjoy retirement. If either of my mares were like that, I would euthanize in a heartbeat.

I agree with giving her an ultimatum.

TwinGates

Jun. 5, 2006, 04:17 PM

I agree w/the others: issue her the eviction notice. There's no sense upsetting yourself about this issue, and the owner's obviously not taken your other "hints".

colleent

Jun. 5, 2006, 04:31 PM

Just tell her that it is too cruel for you to watch her suffering this way and it is selfish to make the horse suffer in this matter. Tell her you are going to arrange to put the horse down,and see what she says.

Luckydonkey

Jun. 5, 2006, 04:41 PM

I would stop giving the horse pain meds- all it does is mask the pain so the owner can't see it- why would she think her horse is in pain if it is not becasue you are medicating it without her knowledge-poor mare- someone needs to just put her down and say they could not reach the owner...

jacksmom

Jun. 5, 2006, 04:45 PM

i would try the intervention - sit down with her, where you can see her mare, take a deep breath, and tell her what you see when you look at her.

since this is an owner new to horses, you need to explain to her that horses don't display chronic pain the way they would an accute trumatic injury - most horses are quite stoic when it comes to enduring pain.

i would tell her that if this mare were yours you would have her humanely euthanized, her quality of life is so poor - keeping her alive is only prolonging her suffering and increasing the likelihood that her ending will involve accute pain. as the owner of this horse she is the steward of her care, she owes it to this poor girl to end her suffering.

you may also try to encourage her by telling her that you are sure there's another horse out there, who's sound and not in pain, that would greatly benefit and blossom with her devotion...

ChocoMare

Jun. 5, 2006, 04:48 PM

Before you sit down with her, print this: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=24766&highlight=crossed

It's the story of my app mare's crossing as the result of arthritis from a blown knee. Sound familiar?

Perhaps allowing her the opportunity to read my story, it will get through to her heart and give her the courage to give her horse the best, final gift....a pain-free, peaceful passing. :cry:

Calvincrowe

Jun. 5, 2006, 04:56 PM

alysheba- I think that is illegal in all states! You can't just kill someone's horse, no matter how right you think it would be.

I think you need to talk with HER vet, tell him what you see daily. Maybe schedule your vet, her vet and the owner to have a talk at the barn. I find it hard to believe her vet is being this "ignorant" of the situation as you've described him/her. Clearly she is attached and doesn't see how sore and unhappy this mare seems. Pain management doesn't always mean ulcers.

The owner clearly has enough money if she's had this much vet care done so far. Maybe you could point out that more money isn't going to cure her, nor is time on her side. She is being selfish and cruel to this mare if she is indeed this bad.

Buglet

Jun. 6, 2006, 11:49 AM

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. I would never in a million years try to give the mare an overdose of something. I would be furious if anyone ever did that to my horse. Choco-thank you very much for sharing your story with me, I am going to print it out and give it to the owner.
Ironically, we had to put down an older gelding last night because it got kicked and broke it's leg. This geldings owner was saying how easier it would be to deal with if she had known for a while that he would have to be let go. She was saying how horrible it was to have to be so sudden. The owner of the mare was there and agreed. I turned to the mare's owner and politely mentioned to her that she is waiting for an accident to happen to her mare before she is willing to do the humane thing. (I was a little nicer about it). She replied by saying that she knows that the mare's time is short, but she still insists that the mare will let her know! As if dragging her leg because she cant bend it is not enough! Who knows, hopefully the articles will help. I called my vet and asked him if he would contact the owner's vet. He said that the whole thing mad him sick and outraged(he is a personal friend), but he needed her permission to discuss the mare with the other vet. :cry:

DMK

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:01 PM

Buglet, it makes sense that he cannot have that conversation without her approval. I think I would go back to asking her to get a third opinion, or maybe even asking the 2nd vet to also suggest a third opinion.

That's still no guarantee she will act, but if 2 vets ar etelling her one thing, that will certainly put a bug in her ear about when it is time.

lunatic fringe

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:14 PM

....better too soon than a moment too late. (apologies to Coreene for not quoting perfectly). :(

ETA: of course, it *is* too late, but perhaps she can learn from the sentiment, since she obviously can't see it!

Coreene

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:23 PM

ChocoMare

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:24 PM

Coreene knows from whence she speaks. Just look up her threads about a gray mare from her barn that was covered in melanoma that the owner would not put down until it was horribly too late. :(

lunatic fringe

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:36 PM

...that mare had slipped my mind! Perhaps you should print out that thread and give it to her as well, so she can see a bit of herself in that absentee owner. ....or do as Coreene suggests. I guess it just depends on how afraid you are that she will really take her.

ZELLA

Jun. 6, 2006, 01:01 PM

Buglet, please be very careful about your actions. You are obviously an extremely caring, competent, and empathetic barn owner, but you must remind yourself that THIS IS NOT YOUR HORSE. You have probably reached the limit of your ability to influence the owner's decision in what is best for the poor creature via counseling and vet recommendations. In this case you know better than the owner what's best for the horse, but you must not medicate, transport, or seek medical care for it without the owner's knowledge and consent.

It's heartbreaking for you and your other boarders to watch this happen, but the only thing at this point you can control is whether it continues to happen in your barn.

Coreene

Jun. 6, 2006, 01:16 PM

I won't even go into the details about the gray mare, as it is too sad for words; suffice it to say that the many tears that were shed were tears of relief that she was finally gone.

summerhorse

Jun. 6, 2006, 01:31 PM

Tell her that if she does not put the horse down, you will call Animal Control (or whatever is in your county); hopefully their vet will order the animal destroyed, but hopefully as well it won't get to that part and she'll realize you're not joking.

Screw her feelings, screw the kindness part. And screw her. I don't give a shit how hard it is or emotional it is for her, she is a selfish cow. Give it to her with both barrels, and give her the eviction notice. You don't need people like that boarding at your place anyhow, and if she won't listen to you and do the right thing, then make her leave.

I agree, you've (all) tried the gentle approach. It's time for a kick to the head. Tell her plain and simple (pay for another 3rd vet yourself to come out and write a recommendation if you would feel better about it) that you will not be a party to an animal suffering this way, that is she will not consent to put the animal down she MUST move the horse immediately and either way you WILL be calling animal control (in fact I'd do so already). Then play nice cop and say you understand how hard it is to let go, that she need not even be there, you will over see the whole thing (except the bill of course) but that regardless of what some other vet says (hard to imagine a vet being THAT dense but it happens, I mean SOMEONE has to be at the bottom of the class) the mare is suffering and she is SCREAMING AT HER THAT IT IS TIME, she just refuses to hear it. And if she moves the horse take her there yourself (so you can get the address!) and call animal control again and let them handle it.

I've seen so many animals suffer needlessly because the owner couldn't face doing the right thing. They are thinking of themselves, not their animals.

Chief2

Jun. 6, 2006, 03:09 PM

The problem, as I think I see it, is the 'but she's only 18 and some live to be 40' issue that could be quietly playing in the background. So here is an out for you to consider. First, layout the options clearly without getting caught up in the heat of the moment, as there are always tears and upset at these things. If she is unwilling to go further with the local veterinary talent, and wants to wait for improvement or a sign from the horse asking for euthanasia, you could always take the high road here, and insist that the horse be immediately taken or referred to a large vet hospital for evaluation. That would not be much more than she has already shelled out, and could slip you off the hook. If that's a no-go, then lay out the back and white options, along with a 24-48 hour deadline for euthanasia arrangements to be made with the vet so you will have time to prepare the property. If she waffles, offer a choice: immediate eviction or a call to the authorities to have the horse removed from the property. Better you to make the call than someone else, and that includes your vet, who may soon get fed up with this and place the call. If you call, it will not be held on your record. One way or another, this needs to be resolved, and you need to get up your strength and do it before the public does it for you.

Phaxxton

Jun. 6, 2006, 03:20 PM

Yeah, I understand it's hard to let go, but I'm sorry... if she TRULY cared about the mare (and the mare is as bad as you say), she'd have put her down a long time ago.

I'm with Coreene. This is not the time to be nice. It's time to stand up for the horse or at least say "not in my barn!"

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jun. 6, 2006, 03:30 PM

Coreene said it all.

islndgirl

Jun. 6, 2006, 04:29 PM

agree with coreene and choco mare... when you truly love your animal and they are clearly suffering its time to say thank you for the time you've given me, and let them go.

i had a friend who wouldnt put their dog down a few weeks ago - though it was clearly dying (organs failing etc.) and had been scheduled to be put down three times in the previous few weeks. it would have "a good day" and then they wouldn't put the dog down, even though the end was clearly in sight. it made me so mad. its only for your own selfish needs that you would keep a suffering animal alive. i understand its hard to let go - im sure we've all lost our fair share of beloved animals - but in no way is holding on showing your love for the animal..

obviously this woman is in some sort of denial and needs a serious wake up call to alert her to her mare's condition. if it takes animal control then so be it. hopefully the wakeup call isn't you finding it crippled on the floor. :( good luck and i hope you are able to get through to her... it sounds like you have really done all you can do for this poor mare.

Giselle

Jun. 6, 2006, 05:44 PM

Coreene

Jun. 6, 2006, 05:59 PM

I am not suggesting to try and convince her about anything. She is obviously not going to listen, but there is no reason for the B.O. to be faced with it. I had to stare at this pathetic mare across from me for years and years, and it was a nightmare. Nothing is worse. If the woman isn't going to deal with her responsibility, then the B.O. should 86 her.

Phaxxton

Jun. 6, 2006, 08:19 PM

Again, I agree with Coreene. The BO can't change the owner's mind, but she also has to stop being a party to this. I wouldn't ever allow that at my barn (well, when I had one ;)), and the BO needs to take a stand.

I personally couldn't let myself be a party to that poor mare's suffering... and of secondary concern is how this will reflect poorly on the BO's barn for allowing it to take place on the property.

There is nothing the BO can do to help the mare at this point. The BO has to follow the owner's instructions (1g of banamine on the "really bad" days). There is little good coming from the BO being able to keep an eye on the mare. She's not being allowed to do anything to even keep the mare comfortable. It's time to say, "If you won't do the right thing, then you won't do the wrong thing under my watch."

fourmares

Jun. 7, 2006, 04:11 PM

Until the owner makes the decision to put the mare down, or to move the mare, I would at least put a support wrap on the "better" leg and ask the owner to get bute or banamine and a joint suppliment, or get it and charge her for it.

goeslikestink

Jun. 7, 2006, 05:12 PM

tell her this--

joe was my old farriers wife she had a pony called patrick and he was 38 along with patrick was a pony she aquired called barcardi- also of 38yrs-- they lost there grassing and livery yard due to development altho they found new liveries for there liveries the due date came round for them to move out and they didnt have anywhere for them to go-- so i took them in on a tempreary basics until they found a new yard, during this time as pat was a skinny pony and boney and arthuritc all things that oldest get he had barcardi was the same but a bit better off -- pat was joes pony since a young girl of 5 -- pat was reported to raspca 4 times on the last time i actually sawe them as they had left cards ebfore -- and at that time i had vet and farrierjos hubby on site-- the rspca realised that this pony was old and ill health failing fast and i said look they just want him to have his summer and be left alone hes not ill treated finnaly rspca realised they had been called for wrong things--

anyways i put the old pair up the back fields as it was nice and full of grass
i was working away from home that day -- and i gets a call on my moby saying that pats gone down -- there was nothing i could do as to far away i phone the owner farrier--paul -- and he said he would go up and see to him, when i came home that evening he had been pts and was undera blanket till the morning as couldnt get anyone before then, he had put barcardi in a stable and said did i mind i said no -- i will put her out in the sik bay paddock until the ohters get used to her--

joe couldnt bring herself to put the pony down we all knew it had to be done
but she just couldnt do it -- when he went down that faith was taken out of her hands - and she couldnt see to him either or say good bye as she wanted to remember him as he was not as he looked like -- vets all know it had to be done -- but some people justc ant do it-- then when its to late they realise how much pain and suffering they actually suffered then they feel quilty reaaly quilty that they didnt do anything--

so if the mare is to be pts and you know it the vets know then sit her down and ask her out right or tell her -- let her die with dignity and apin free dont let it drag on and then becalled out becuase shes gone down and cant get up -- becuasse if you do that then you feel guilty that you dint do anything for when you could and had the chance to -- and that will never leave you
if you love your horse then do right by her as she done right by you --been a good loyal freind -- and all shes wants peice and pain free--dignity..

Twiliath

Jun. 7, 2006, 05:26 PM

Call the SPCA or the Humane Society and have them look at the horse. I don't care and they won't either about what the owner's vet says. Along with Animal Care and Control (if you have one), the humane organizations can enforce the cruelty laws. Call them out when the owner can be there and hear what they have to say and override her idiot vet. I would also call the state board governing the licensing of vets and make a complaint.

goeslikestink

Jun. 7, 2006, 05:42 PM

i to think that the idiot vet was shown up by your vet and has got her to agree with him so he dont look bad -- but tough -- i think i would call out the authorities for the horses sake not the owners if you think shes bad and others vets do then something has to be doen to make the owner realise she wrong -- touchy i know as i have been there with an owner as i said

or maybe tell her that the horse will be seen and she will end up going to court
if something isnt done maybe work on that and the guilts as i said previously

Coreene

Jun. 7, 2006, 05:56 PM

bugsynskeeter

Jun. 7, 2006, 06:03 PM

You mentioned that the mare's owner was new to horse ownership - does she truely understand what's going on? Have you sat down and talked to her in a civil manner and explain things in laymans terms? Relate to her what's going on with her horse as if it were herself. Maybe she doesn't understand what is going on. Before you attack her old vet - have you found out what has been said to him/her? Maybe this mare's owner just called the old vet saying that her new BO just wanted to put her mare down - no details on th mare's condition or anything. Maybe you could call her vet and explain the situation. Has this vet ever seen the horse or is he going all on hearsay? Sadly, I know vets who have never seen a horse but have dispensed advice about it. Ethical? no...but it happens.

As for all this stuff about ODing the horse - are you insane? This lady could loose her barn and her reputation faster then you can say overdose. If I was the mare's owner and found this out - you better believe I'd be sueing the pants off the barn owner. The thought just makes me sick. Stay the hell away from my horses!

Good luck in your endevours with the owner - but please remember...its her call in the end.

But playing devil's advocate for a second - this isn't you mare.

goeslikestink

Jun. 7, 2006, 06:03 PM

well then instead lets all jingle for the mare and bo --and pray she changes her mind andsee the truth jingle little mare

Lookout

Jun. 8, 2006, 06:11 PM

Has the owner's vet seen the horse? Does his opinion mean anything? Obviously the owner is listening to her vet. How bad can the mare be if one vet doesn't think she needs to be put down?

How Bout No (Karrie)

Jun. 8, 2006, 07:20 PM

My opinion: poor mare :( I think the vet is saying the mare is okay just so the owner will continue to cough up him pay check, knowing she trusts him *sigh* Jingles for the mare

shea'smom

Jun. 8, 2006, 09:15 PM

I feel your pain.
I once told a long time customer if they didn't have their horse put down that day I would shoot it myself. After days of talks, that finally got through to them.
There is a vet in our area who just never seems to want to put one down until way past what I would think appropriate. I never have been able to figure that out.
I hope this poor horse finds some peace soon.

Just Wondering

Jun. 9, 2006, 03:05 PM

Animal protection, etc will bring problems down on the BO's shoulders - they may ultimately see her as the responsible party.

I would contact the vet who suggested she be put down and see if there is someone higher in the food chain that can be called. State vet office? To express concern over the 100% different opinions of these vets.

Phaxxton

Jun. 9, 2006, 03:10 PM

My opinion: poor mare :( I think the vet is saying the mare is okay just so the owner will continue to cough up him pay check, knowing she trusts him *sigh* Jingles for the mare

I have to doubt this. I highly doubt ONE horse is generating THAT much income for the vet...

Phaxxton

Jun. 9, 2006, 03:10 PM

Animal protection, etc will bring problems down on the BO's shoulders - they may ultimately see her as the responsible party.

Which is yet another reason for the "euthanasia or eviction" notice, unfortunately. :(

lunatic fringe

Jun. 9, 2006, 03:18 PM

Used Tack n Horse Stuff Store

Jun. 9, 2006, 04:22 PM

When I read this thread, my heart broke...again. Making the decision to put an old or sick animal down is a gut wretching one. It is one I don't envy, and it makes it even more difficult when you are in a boarding situation.
When I made the decision to put down my 26 year old TB mare after a very long and painful bout of lymphangitis (SP?) there were boarders who had the nerve to confront me about my decision because they disagreed with me. Not only did they not have all the facts but they were new horse owners.
The barn owner asked me if they could have the mare (for their riding school) I said no and they spread rumors about me and how the horse could be "cured" and they were willing to spend the money. If she could have been cured I would have taken her up to the local Vet school, Tuffs and paid for her treatment. Money is and was no object. Needless to say, I made the right decision and gave my mare her dignity and put her down.
I just put down one of my dogs, (9 weeks ago today) when she could barely walk. She was 12 and had a degenerated disk. I am just thankful she didn't have a long drawn out illness. She was the kind of dog that would have ate fire to be with you. She was NOT going to "make the decision" for me.
I wish the OP the best of luck and offer nothing but my thoughts and prayers for you, the horse and the owner of the horse.

Sobriska

Jun. 11, 2006, 07:06 AM

Adding jingles that God will call this mare home soon and take the decision from the owner.
I am sorry for the BO and all who have to see the mare suffer.

horse_poor

Jun. 11, 2006, 05:56 PM

My God, what does this horse have to do to "tell the owner it is time?" Make a sign and hang it around her neck????

Some horses go on their own, others need help. Those who need help DO tell you, but many owners don't or refuse to listen.

It is the hardest decision in the world to make. Just today I was thinking about that awful awful day I had to put Aero down. It was not something I planned-I did not have the luxery of time I wanted to tell him everything I wanted.

It is the hardest but most generous gift to give.

horse_poor

Jun. 11, 2006, 06:18 PM

Please print this off and give it to her-Aero "wrote" it about the Rainbow Bridge-I went and re-read his RIP thread here: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=27587&page=3&highlight=Aero

Miss Eggbutt, during my brief time in the tunnel, the horse dog made it very clear that much thought is put into the engraving of the invitation. From what I understand, humans have nothing to do with the decision whether or not a condo is prepared or an invite engraved. There is a force greater than all of us who makes these decisions, and when a horse in particular is needed at the bridge, then the condo is prepared and the invitation engraved and festivities planned.

As the bridge is a magical place, this force is able to seep in the conscience of humans and whisper that the condo is bedded and the invite is engraved with a flourish and that the horse in question is needed at the bridge straightaway. The horse dog told me that often times humans argue with themselves when they hear this whisper and often times try to ignore it, but it is a whisper that cannot be ignored. This horse in particular is needed at the bridge to undertake great responsibility and tasks.

The time spent in the tunnel waiting to see if an invitation has been extended is an apprehensive time for humans, as it can take some time for the invitation committee to get word whether or not it is indeed time to extend such an invitation. The horse dog says when an invitation is extended, it is one that cannot be questioned, as hard as it may be for a human to aaccept, and no guilt should be felt, and the following is the reason why.

The horse dog said not all horses are fortunate enough to be able to visit the invitation tunnel--sometimes they skip the tunnel and go down a dreadful path straight to the bridge after much struggle and pain--these horses are received with much celebration as they fought very hard to get to the bridge, as they did not have any assistance in getting there. Some horses remain on this path for a dreafully long time as their owners ignore the whispers of the force greater than us, and those at the bridge look down upon humans who ignore the whisper, as the act of assisting a horse to accept the invitation is one of the greatest gifts one can give a horse. It is these humans who often indeed get the gifts of the stray hair, echo of hooves, and faint whinnies in thanks of the greatest gift of all.

The horse dog told me there are two ways to get to the bridge-either with dignity or with pain. Those who arrive at the bridge via a way other than with dignity are very distraught as they say "I gave my human so many years of service and they failed me in the end--why?" Sadly, no one can answer these questions for these poor souls. But nonetheless, their arrival is celebrated and they more often than not go to work on the whisper committee.

The horse dog also told me of a third way one can get to the bridge, and that is an expedited trip through the tunnel where the engraved invitation is passed on quietly and whispers to humans are not needed-however, this is not the norm, although it is preferred as humans cannot argue with the whisper as it is not needed.

He also said there are a few other ways to get to the bridge but he would not go into it as it gets very political and confusing--he said the most important thing for a human to do is listen to the whisper and know that when they hear the whisper, it is indeed the right thing to do.

The horse dog made it very clear that when a horse is beckoned to the bridge, it is his duty/right to go, and if needed, a humans responsibility to assist. He does not understand why humans do not celebrate this, as he says it is the most splendid gift a human can give, but ONLY when the whisper comes with the engraved invitation.

I told him I thought it was all quite confusing amd he knowingly smiled and said that when the condo and invitation is ready and presented, there will be no confusion. He said humans will be plagued with guilt, especially if they try to argue with the whisper, as they cannot accept the loss of their beloved, but they need to understand that a life at the bridge is wonderous and the greatest gift of all.

He said invitations are not handed out haphazardly and once a horse has been called to the bridge, the human will simply know.

MayS

Jun. 11, 2006, 06:47 PM

are just nutty. I had a friend w/ a 20+ year old cat that was going into kidney failure, and her vet told her she was being cruel and should not put the cat to sleep. WTF? That was the last time friend paid that vet! lol Seriously, maybe her vet has some type of *agenda*.

Not trying to hijack the thread, but you can't generalize all health problems must be excruciatingly painful.

I had a cat in chronic renal (kidney) failure (CRF) and we managed the problem. This isn't an 'old cat' problem, nor is it a sign the cat wants to die. It varies in how severe it is. It's a condition that CAN be managed and isn't always a death sentence. You address why the kidney(s) aren't functioning. You can manage the problem with careful monitoring of the cat, a special diet, ensuring he gets tons of fresh water, phosphorus binder added to food, and be willing to administer subcutaneous fluids if he 'crashes'. CRF isn't painful *if* the owner is managing the situation. When the blood chemistry does go bad, the cat gets lethargic and feels hungover (like a person does after bad binge drinking). Not trying to be disagreeable, but just wanted to illustrate the point that not all illnesses are a death sentence.

We tend to jump to the conclusion that an older animal in poor health wants euthanasia. It is a hard decision to make. That's why it ultimately must be the *owner's* decision... he/she knows the animal best, cares for him, and is responsible for such choices. There'a an awful lot of condemnation againt this owner who we've never met. I dont' know them, their situation, or their reasons. How can I judge someone I don't know or have never met?

Coreene

Jun. 12, 2006, 11:37 AM

...there were boarders who had the nerve to confront me about my decision because they disagreed with me.
Been there. Gave Willem a 3000 lb dose of Banamine while waiting for the vet, and when it kicked in for a few mintues, a fellow boarder said he was fine now. And some BBers thought it would be okay to email me and say I should have tried harder. What, and wait for the coffin bones to pop through on a horse who had said it was time? No thank you.

Again, better one month too early than one minute too late.

Fingers crossed that this whackjob owner comes to her senses very soon.

HorsesRMe

Jun. 12, 2006, 11:43 AM

I IM-ed you!:)

Buglet

Jun. 12, 2006, 01:35 PM

I called and left two messages for her vet to call me. I did not tell him what it was about, I just said that I needed to ask him some questions regarding the mare. The a-hole didn't even give me a call back. I think he knows how I feel about the situation. I have a new vet coming into the barn Friday for one of the other boarders. He is coming around 4:00 which is the same time that the mare's owner usually shows up to turn the mare out (the owner turns her out because she puts support boots, fly mask, etc. on the mare before she goes outside. I'm hoping to talk to the vet prior to the owner arriving, and having him take a peek at the mare. Hopefully he will give the owner his opinion. I am even willing to pay for his opinion.

DMK

Jun. 12, 2006, 01:42 PM

Not trying to hijack the thread, but you can't generalize all health problems must be excruciatingly painful.

I had a cat in chronic renal (kidney) failure (CRF) and we managed the problem. This isn't an 'old cat' problem, nor is it a sign the cat wants to die. It varies in how severe it is. It's a condition that CAN be managed and isn't always a death sentence. You address why the kidney(s) aren't functioning. You can manage the problem with careful monitoring of the cat, a special diet, ensuring he gets tons of fresh water, phosphorus binder added to food, and be willing to administer subcutaneous fluids if he 'crashes'. CRF isn't painful *if* the owner is managing the situation. When the blood chemistry does go bad, the cat gets lethargic and feels hungover (like a person does after bad binge drinking). Not trying to be disagreeable, but just wanted to illustrate the point that not all illnesses are a death sentence.

We tend to jump to the conclusion that an older animal in poor health wants euthanasia. It is a hard decision to make. That's why it ultimately must be the *owner's* decision... he/she knows the animal best, cares for him, and is responsible for such choices. There'a an awful lot of condemnation againt this owner who we've never met. I dont' know them, their situation, or their reasons. How can I judge someone I don't know or have never met?

Ditto, CRF is not an immediate death sentence and it is quite treatable for many cats (I will also say some cats hide their symptoms until they really are bad, so there is that). And if the owner simply cannot manage the care, afford the care, or the alternative of dragging the cat back and forth to the vet for regular trx is too hard on the cat, then the reality is that euthanasia may be the best choice for the cat. But it isn't the only choice in every situation.

CdnRider

Jun. 12, 2006, 10:38 PM

Not to say that the vet in question isn't wrong but often times people are very emotional when their animals are not doing well. And many times they misunderstand or interpret what their vet is telling them when all they can think about is their animal. Also some vets are very good at explaining things in laymans terms while others talk above owners (as far as terminology) and I think a lot of owners don't want to clarify as they don't want to be perceived as stupid or in that moment they just can't talk because they are so upset.

I'm not saying this is the case with your situation, but it could have started that way. I would call your SPCA constable and at the very least ask what can be done, if anything. I also feel that if your vet feels this lack of treatment is cruel he has an obligation to say something to the SPCA as well.

Lisamarie8

Jun. 13, 2006, 01:05 PM

Been there. Gave Willem a 3000 lb dose of Banamine while waiting for the vet, and when it kicked in for a few mintues, a fellow boarder said he was fine now. And some BBers thought it would be okay to email me and say I should have tried harder. What, and wait for the coffin bones to pop through on a horse who had said it was time? No thank you.

Again, better one month too early than one minute too late.

Fingers crossed that this whackjob owner comes to her senses very soon.

Coreene,

My vet and I did the same thing for Whiskey. I couldn't handle putting my baby down by myself and was waiting for Fairweather to get to the barn (at which she arrived in record time). During that time even my VET said "If i hadn't seen that horse 5 minutes ago I would have said he was fine"

Banamine, the best Band-Aid on a Bullet hole there is.

oh yeah... and people suck.

Coreene

Jun. 13, 2006, 04:14 PM

Coreene,

My vet and I did the same thing for Whiskey. I couldn't handle putting my baby down by myself and was waiting for Fairweather to get to the barn (at which she arrived in record time). During that time even my VET said "If i hadn't seen that horse 5 minutes ago I would have said he was fine"

Banamine, the best Band-Aid on a Bullet hole there is.

oh yeah... and people suck.
People sure do suck. When the Banamine stopped working, after about 11 minutes of "this is your last look at semi-normal Willem" bliss, I pointed out to the naysayer that it's more than a passing glance that gives you the real story. And, of course, was told that I was a bad person. Eff 'em, ya know?

I hope you and Fairweather did a good "dranken" in Whiskey's honor. He was such a cool horse. :sadsmile: And I still have the get well e-card you sent Willem.

Such is the drawback of horse ownership. If "drawback" is even the right word. Many, many, many hours and days and weeks and months and years of bliss, ended by that shit last moment when they go down. So in the end, not really a drawback, but very sad to close that particular book in your life.

But much sadder when the book so desperately needs to be closed, and the horse remains alive because a selfish owner refuses to put it down. It is never about the horse then, it's all about the owner.

dressage_ryder

Jun. 14, 2006, 10:28 PM

I work at a vet clinic, mostly small animals but we come across the same situation all the time. Even WITH the vet's reccomendation to euthanize the dog or cat, the owners still refuse, and it drags on for days or weeks with the animal suffering and eventually dying on it's own.

While it sometimes seems clear enough for an outsider to say that an animal should be put down, I know I would have a lot of difficulty if it were my own. I think that the owners just keep waiting for any glimmer of hope, or they think that their pet will be the one in a million to beat the odds.

I agree that it is selfish, and I really think that humans put a lot higher value on life than animals do, all they know is the pain they are in.

Coup De Des

Jun. 15, 2006, 12:52 AM

yeah.. makes me think about people dragging on... no one cares about some old folk either.

SandyUHC

Jun. 15, 2006, 11:49 AM

Or people wanting the animal to die a "natural" death -- while they are performing all sorts of unnatural support for the animal, like carrying cats around and force-feeding them. My cat has CRF and although she is my heart cat and is very stoic and sweet she absolutely will not tolerate daily procedures like IVs and pills; she wouldn't think that would make life worth living. I'm sadly going to have to figure out when the quality-of-life scale starts tipping towards goodbye -- without undue suffering -- sooner rather than later.

Three times in my life I've had to stand by and watch horses suffer because someone is too selfish to step up. It is a horror and you and the poor horse have my sympathies. I hope you can help this owner do the right thing. A third opinion sounds like just the ticket.

JumpingPaints

Jun. 15, 2006, 12:04 PM

Buglet, I don't know if giving this owner the following article will help. It helped me when we made the heartbreaking, but fast decision to euthanize our beloved, suffering cat.

Our Pets: Temporary Gifts
By Donna M. Raditic, DVM, CVA

I would like to take this opportunity to reflect on a very difficult topic -- death. Each one of us as pet owners will be faced with the loss of our companion. It is not unusual for our personal views regarding our own mortality to become involved in the decisions we make for our pets. Some owners are unable to let go of their animal companions and cling to every last shred of hope. These people need confident direction and understanding to allow their pets to die with peace and dignity. I have long ago realized, it is my place to let these owners know it is time to stop hoping and allow their friend to pass on peacefully. We need to take care of them in their dying. Because of the shorter life span of animals, I will outlive most of my patients. I see them born and I see them through their death. This is very different from human medical practitioners who still insist of treating death as a disease, rarely seeing a patient's life cycle in its entirety.

Owners often ask me how I can be sure it is time for their friend to die. In Chinese medicine, it is believed that dying is associated with the loss of shen, the vital life force that is seen in a patient's eyes. Having stared into many dying eyes, I have come to believe this is true. I also understand the physiological changes a patient experiences from life-threatening diseases - pain, weakness, nausea, respiratory distress, numbness, and unrest. I also spend time talking to my owners who will give me a clear picture of their friend's quality of life and his priorities in life. This is different for each patient - some dogs need to take that daily excursion to the mailbox, while others are content to curl up on the couch with a view of Mom or Dad getting the mail. Your cat may find it very important to make the upstairs trek to the litter box, while others will accept you moving it into the kitchen, underfoot and all. Each one with special needs and individual personalities, your pet will try to make these decisions very clear. And if you can't understand or see clearly through your tears, we are here to guide you through this process.

There are some premises which all of us must respect. Animals do not fear death and that is not because of ignorant bliss, but rather an appreciation of the power of nature and her change of the seasons; night turns to day, water to vapor and back again as rain, on and on and on .... They are still connected to the laws of nature and know no fear; they just accept what they cannot change. Sometimes my patients are anxious, whining, and restless, but I have come to realize they are worried about their people! Their Mom and Dad are crying, afraid and unsure. Is it not the pet's job to lick their tears away and wag their tail so hard their parents will start to smile? But they can't; they are dying and it seems like their parents need them more than ever. It is important for owners to know they need to let their friend move on; his duty of bringing unconditional love and joy has been fulfilled.

A second premise must be mentioned. Our friends do not wish to live forever. They are not looking for quantity, only a quality life. They have a purpose here; they are temporary gifts that must be returned. Our pets take away our pain, suffering, loneliness, selfishness, anger, and misfortune. With a warm purr or a happy woof, they try to teach each of us how to live as better human beings. If we listen to their quiet yet profound message, then a pet's life will be eternal and meaningful. We need to live our lives as well, sharing the simple unconditional love and acceptance we have enjoyed from our furry companions.

anne75

Jun. 19, 2006, 09:02 PM

hi i am new to this board and i know my post is probubly 2 late i ran across this by looking for information on vets,i can fully agree with the poor mare needs to be put down as hard as it may be for the owner its harder for the mare.i have a 24 yr old standardbred that i rescued from a horrible person that left her in a field to die he admitted that she had not been fed grain or hay in months so i took her severly under weight and right away had a vet look at her they also put her on a speciel diet and she was slowly gaining and then got sick i was told she would pull through and she did then she got a chest infection i was told she will pull through the treatment was complete and she was better then she got eye infections wich tells me and the vet her infection was gone and had spread.she still is eating ok but is on bute to keep her comfortable and there is a apointment set for tommorow morning to have her put to sleep her body has been neglected for so long its takin its toll and all she is is suffering from one illness to another as a horse owner and rescuer i fight for them but it does become inhumane when they have to suffer so yes i agree that poor thing needs to be put to sleep you cant fake x rays they tell the truth.and someone should tell that lady next horse new vet""

ChocoMare

Jun. 20, 2006, 05:25 AM

Welcome to COTH Anne :) and bless you for taking in that poor mare. Bless you again for being self-less enough to give her the most loving gift: a pain-free peaceful crossing. (((((((((((((((((( HUGS )))))))))))))))))

May others learn from your example :sadsmile:

Phaxxton

Jun. 20, 2006, 12:04 PM

Buglet - Can we get an update???

Anne - Wow, good for you for doing right by that poor horse! :sadsmile:

Nicker

Jun. 20, 2006, 12:28 PM

I don't know what AC can do, around here all they need to back off is a letter from a vet stating the horse is receiving care. They don't worry about pain levels. As long as the horse is offered food/water/shelter and receiving med attention they leave it alone.
I would go with the ultimatum. It's worked for me when I was in a similar situation. I had a boarder who's horse was suffering, but with meds, etc his quality of life could improve enough for a happy retirement. I documented(w/pics) a year of gradual weight loss, injuries, etc. The vet kept blowing me off, saying we like 'em a little lean. Finally he said he agreed, that if the owner wasn't willing to try anything else the horse should be put down. I had the difficult talk with the owner and she called the vet. The bastard lied! He told the owner he never said the horse should be put down, and that he looked thin but fine. When I asked him(in a local 7-11) why he changed his mind, he said it wasn't his place to make the decision. I will never use that vet again! I wasn't asking him to decide anything, just state his opinion(either way) as back up when I talked with the owner. Fortunately the horse is now receiving the care he needs and living as comfortable a retirement as he can. :) It took alot of pestering, but in the end it was worth it. I just hope as his quality of life declines again(it will happen, the horse is very old) the owner isn't so hard headed.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Jun. 20, 2006, 12:53 PM

I know how excruciating it will be for me to say goodbye to Ted. But I made a promise to not let him suffer, and I will keep that promise. Just because it will be hard for me doesn't excuse letting him suffer.

I had to put my dog down when I was in the hospital recovering from major surgery. He went to the vet clinic to board until I was out of the hospital. He had a seizure, the first one was mild, the second one wasn't. I always swore I wouldn't let him go to the bridge alone - but how cruel would it have been to make him wait so I could say goodbye?

Don't misunderstand: I was devastated. And wailed. And cursed, that I couldn't say goodbye and I love you that one last time. But 20 years have passed, and I have come to realize that Rascal was ready to go long before, but realized that he needed to stay for me. And as soon as he was able, he wanted to go. And I owed him no less, and it doesn't lessen the love we shared.

All I hope for Ted, for all of us, is that when the whisper comes, Ted can go with great dignity and peace and no pain.

anne75

Jun. 20, 2006, 07:07 PM

hi everyone and thanxs for the support,my day has finaly ended today it was the worst thing i have ever had to do. i sat there for ten minutes after just rubiing her neck and still talking to her it is horrible to see that happen to any animal but more to watch them suffer when i got her i rescuded her and with the journey i have went through with her it made me open my eyes to many things alot of abuse to horses and pony's slaughter and them darn back yard auctions,so i started a website and im still working on it i can only do what i can afford with them and i know if i go and pull one out of those horrible pens thats my vets work wonderful with me i have succeeded on to so far to wonderful home i have a pony now waiting also i can only afford maybe two at a time due to vet bills but thats two more when i got suger the vet said she was around 12 and when i had her teeth done they said alot older then that before her last breath today i promised her i would do what i could to its sick that lady that wont put hers to sleep that makes me so mad becouse all she is thinking of is herself they cant talk to us but we can see in there eyes and actions somthing is wrong.i hope to talk to you guys soon thanks again if anyone want the site i have started is www.pasturepals.org take a look and let me know so far what you guys think or what else i can put on there im still working on it =) leave a message on the message board. and the page on sugar she is my mare i took today. thanx everyone
anne;) ;) ;)

LivviesMom

Jun. 20, 2006, 07:11 PM

Queen Latisha

Jun. 20, 2006, 07:19 PM

Is it possible this vet is giving the owner wrong info as an attempt to keep them as a client, especially if there this mare is having health issues that keep him coming out and the vet bill money rolling in..I hate to think that way of any vet but it is a possiblilty...thankfully I have the best vet in the world.
It just seems weird to me that if one vet and the owner can SEE cracks in the ankle and all these other issues and the owners vet denies it...

I think some people just refuse to face facts and some vets don't know what they're doing.
The end result is going to be the same, why not put the horse out of her misery?
I'm dealing with a similar situation at my barn. The owner refuses to admit, there's no hope for a recovery.:(

Used Tack n Horse Stuff Store

Jun. 21, 2006, 11:26 AM

It has been over a week, has anything been done for this horse?

Phaxxton

Jun. 21, 2006, 11:59 AM

Yes, Buglet, an update PLEASE?!?!

What happened when the new vet came out? Did he look at the horse?

Aptor Hours

Jun. 21, 2006, 06:21 PM

Having a horse put down is a VERY hard decision for a person to make. Having someone who isn't a close friend have their vet examine & schedule euthanasia for your horse isn't making it any easier.

Do you think the owner is lying about her own vet's advice? If her own vet truly did say the horse isn't in excruciating pain, then you have to respect that her vet & your vet have two different opinons. Vets do not always agree. That's what their advice is called an "opinion" not a fact. The owner & owner's vet could truly believe the horse isn't suffering.

Is the horse still eating OK? Is she able to stand & move around?

Instead of ganging up on her with the help of your vet, why not try taking the friend approach and offer support. Get to know her. Try to understand her reluctance. Maybe she'll reveal the real reason she's reluctant to let the horse go... maybe you can (nicely) solve those roadblocks. Be there for her when she is ready to let go of her horse.

Do NOT overdose the horse on pain meds yourself in an effort to kill her. It's dishonest, illegal, and it violates any & all trust the owner has in you. How would you feel if you found out another boarder OD'd your horse intentionally on a drug because she felt your horse was getting too old and needed to go?! :eek:

You're also not a vet so you wouldn't know the right dosage or drugs to *painlessly* have her pass away. Get it wrong and you have a horse who is now very sick and may be in more pain from the screwed up kill attempt. At the very least you're risking turning the mare into a horse with liver damage. That is cruel.

Agreed! My heart goes out to that horse but the thought of overdosing and killing another persons horse is somewhat shocking. I wouldn't want to have a horse in the same barn as you..yikes.

Galloway

Jun. 21, 2006, 06:43 PM

I have to doubt this. I highly doubt ONE horse is generating THAT much income for the vet...

I doubt that too. I've known a few vets who just can't seem to say the "E" word. I don't know if they hate to be the bearer of bad news or are trying to keep their "kill" quota down.. but they just WILL NOT ever suggest it. They would rather walk away and let an animal drop dead, and in the meantime suffer and suffer and suffer, and they just don't seem to care.
The really sick part is they were masters at convincing the owner a terminal illness or injury wasn't. It's astounding, but I've seen it happen. It's heartbreaking and absolutely infuriating to deal with them.

The company that produces Beuth once gave out these promotional magnets featuring a bottle of the stuff. (Charming.)
I gave it to one of these vets and told him to put it on his fridge so he'd know what a bottle looked like.

Poor mare. Kudos to you Buglet for being in her corner.

Su Valley

Jun. 21, 2006, 06:48 PM

Well this has been a disheartening thread, but a few points did not escape me:

Why is the mare still not on pain meds? Surely the owner sees the overt symptoms of extreme pain, yes? Does she know she can literally demand this of her vet? Maybe not? I would use anything I had at hand-perhaps another boarder can "generously" offer to share some excess bute, with vet ok?

Secondly, depending on which state you are licensed in, there may be oaths which the vet is duty bound to fulfill.....preventing suffering may be one of them?

Why has no one suggested to the owner, support wraps on the other leg, DMSO, arthritis sups, Legend, and all the rest?

What about valerian, Rescue Remedy, and all the homeopathics out there?

Just curious.......

Buglet

Jun. 22, 2006, 06:26 AM

Sorry that I haven't given an update lately. Well I convinced the owner to buy her some support boots for turnout. They seem to help her out, cause she is walking in the field a little better. The owner made the decision to give her Conquer twice a day (10cc per dose) rather then just once a day. Her vet was out at the farm and observed the mare in the field, and he suggested that she get bute every other day. The vet still believes that the mare will give some kind of "sign" when it is time, so of course I had to ask him what kind of freaking sign was he looking for. He said if the mare looses her will to want to go out (right now she screams, and is a freak if you leave her in while the other horses are out), if she stops eating, etc. We all know what I think, but the vet has the owner convinced that the mare will let her know. I have seriously thought about calling the humane society, but I'm worried about the concequences that it will have for my farm. We all know that the horse world is a very small place, and that rumors spread like wildfire. I would hate for a rumor to get started that we had the humane society called on us because we had a horse with broken legs that we were neglecting. I discussed with the vet the possiblility of the someone filing a complaint against us, and he told me that since he (the vet) is examining the horse on a regular basis, that everything would be okay. HE said that if a complaint was filied, to have them call him. I don't know, the whole thing really sucks!

ChocoMare

Jun. 22, 2006, 06:30 AM

:sigh:

Well, at least they're doing something to kinda ease her pain and discomfort.

It sounds awful but I truly hope that this mare stops eating or moving or something drastic because, obviously, that owner needs a friggin BILLBOARD :mad: to tell her it's time.

We can only hope the owner keeps her on the pain meds.

horse_poor

Jun. 22, 2006, 07:07 AM

Like I said...what does she need to do....make a sign thats says "I'M READY!!!" and hang it around her neck????

This is so so sad :no: and I am sorry you are stuck in the middle, so to speak.

Stupid vet. Stories like this make me so happy to know I have a good one. I heart Dr. Hottie.

Just Wondering

Jun. 22, 2006, 02:59 PM

It sounds awful but I truly hope that this mare stops eating or moving or something drastic because, obviously, that owner needs a friggin BILLBOARD :mad: to tell her it's time.

Oh gracious - NOT! For the OP's sake and for the mare, I would hope she will simply lie down in the sun one day and peacefully go to the never ending sleep.

Buglet

Jan. 11, 2007, 09:52 AM

Well believe it ot not, the owners have kept that poor mare alive through the summer and the fall. She has gotten worse, and can barely walk. When she does get turned out, she lays down the entire day, and usually requires assistance to help her get up.
The owner had the vet out today, and thank god, he said that it was time to let go. He has finally come to his senses and said that she needed to be put down while she still has some dignity. He said that while her mind still may be here, her body is gone and that her legs are going to completely give out at any moment. Sadly, the owner wants her to have a private cremation, which means she has to get in a trailer and go for about a 20 minutes trailer ride. Not quite sure how they are going to get her into a trailer, but at least they are going to put her out of her misery. RIP.

BeastieSlave

Jan. 11, 2007, 10:56 AM

:sadsmile: Thanks for the update. The end is in sight now, and I hope it has some dignity for her sake.

Beethoven

Jan. 11, 2007, 11:09 AM

I am so glad to hear she is finally getting the relief that she needs.

Tiempo

Jan. 11, 2007, 11:33 AM

You mean to say that after allowing the mare to get in that wretched condition - this woman is now going to take her away from all that is familiar to her, force her to take a potentially catastrophic trailer ride to strange,unfamiliar surroundings to be put down so that SHE can have the comfort of a private cremation.

She claims to love her horse..but in in my opinion she is a selfish,heartless cow. :mad:

Please tell her so from me.

ReeseTheBeast

Jan. 11, 2007, 11:54 AM

i'm fairly new to this board (1 week), but have been a lurker for a long time... reading the title of this thread brought back a lot of the frustration both my fellow riders and i felt for months and months last year.

one of the boarders there had a mare who was in semi-retirement, only being ridden by some of the younger kids there who leased her. i'm going to leave a lot of the details out that could be identifying.

the mare foundered back in april/march of 2006. over the course of the rest of the year, we all had to stand by as she continued her steady, horrifying decline. she grew so thin we could see every bone in her body, she developed sores on all the protruding areas from spending so much time laying down (which was literally ~18 hours of the day); and there were days this summer where she would literally be prodded off the floor of her stall with a pitchfork, just so see if she could get up... all the while, she's skin and bones, feet wrapped in bandages that hadn't been changed in weeks, breathing so hard i thought she would have a heart attack, with a stare so distant there were times i thought she was already dead. the X-rays showed massive rotation of the bones in the feet, her soles were bulging, and it looked like her hooves were ready to slough.

the vets that were called (they're from a practice, there's several that operate together) ultimately dropped the ball, as they never actually got together to review the whole of the case. and none of them ever had balls enough to say, "it's time." why? i don't know. but i do know that several vets i've talked to over the years have all said the same thing- that they aren't really supposed to be the one to tell the owner what to do ("ultimately the owner's decision"). also, there were several vets involved in this case where they kept suggesting more and more "new treatments" that "may [or may not] work." i think that some vets don't have the ability to separate his client's want to keep their animal around and what's right. but that's a whole different post....

anyway, i know some of you will ask, so i'll say there are reasons that animal welfare was not called, and like i said, i am leaving out some things due to my want to remain anonymous in telling this story... but all of us there tried confronting the owner in our own way: being nice, being helpful, being angry and confrontational.... nothing worked; because like another poster said, it's ultimately the owner's decision. the worst thing in a situation like this is when the owner is a childish, ignorant, selfish "adult." but i digress.

it was the most cruel and sickening thing i've ever seen in my life and most days it brought me to tears to see her like that. and although i agree that the idea of performing a "mercy killing" on another's animal is deplorable, i will not lie and tell you that i didn't entertain ideas of the same thing... when a compassionate and unselfish person sees a suffering animal, it's the most enraging and painful thing to be unable to do something about it for the animal's sake. it's like you get desperate to help them, and would literally do anything.

the mare was not put down until this past december, in the midst of a massive nosebleed (which was more like a hemmorhage) and a total shut down of the rest of her organs. i believe that is what's categorized as "a minute too late." after the incident with the mare, i promised myself that i'd never again stand by silently when action needs to be taken, even if it has to be through the law and the owners could get in serious trouble- no matter how loyal or close i am to the individual involved.

i called SPCA about another horse on the property that was thought to have a life-threatening injury, but was left to stand in his stall for a week while the owners never called a vet. after SPCA was called, the owner had 3 vets come out. sometimes that's what it takes.

i am telling all of you this story not to be morbid or to depress anyone. but rather, to encourage all of us to go above and beyond... every day i am ashamed that i did not pick up the phone and call the SPCA. all of us are ashamed of that, because none of us did it.

if the barn owner is the one to call on a boarder, i seriously doubt that she will face any legal repercussions... yes, it's her barn and she's theoretically responsible for the horses in her care there; but she would be doing the ultimate responsible thing by calling- and SPCA and the like takes all of that into consideration. furthermore, although a barn owner is responsible for the horses in her care, the owner has the final say on how their horse is managed- they are the ones who are *ultimately* responsible for what happens to their own horse.

from what i've read, it sounds like the horse being discussed in this post has already been euthanized, thank god. i just wanted to share with all of you my experience... and hopefully it'll empower all of us to have the strength to do the right things, no matter how hard they are. learn from my mistakes!

Thomas_1

Jan. 11, 2007, 12:14 PM

Well what you can and can't do depends on your contract with the owner.

Its essential that you have a good contract to protect your reputation and livelihood. Horses in the condition you describe at your premises leaves you vulnerable to complaint and investigation by the welfare authorites.

What does your contract say??

Appassionato

Jan. 11, 2007, 12:18 PM

harvestmoon

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:16 PM

I don't get it, why can't they put her to sleep, and *then* have her body sent to be cremated?

ChocoMare

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:20 PM

.... Sadly, the owner wants her to have a private cremation, which means she has to get in a trailer and go for about a 20 minutes trailer ride. Not quite sure how they are going to get her into a trailer, but at least they are going to put her out of her misery. RIP.

Sorry but the "private cremation" thing is setting off red flags in my head. One of those things that make you go "Hmmmmmm" :confused:

Who's to say this selfish woman won't drug up the horse and dump her at an auction? Or dump her somewhere period?

I'd want to be there to see the euth personally so that I knew it had been done.

catknsn

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:24 PM

Sorry but the "private cremation" thing is setting off red flags in my head. One of this things that make you go "Hmmmmmm" :confused:

Who's to say this selfish woman won't drug up the horse and dump her at an auction? Or dump her somewhere period?

I'd want to be there to see the euth personally so that I knew it had been done.

I had the SAME thought. Am I just an old cynic or have I seen too many people like this?

Can't imagine why you can't bring a crematorium a carcass instead of a live horse. I haven't cremated, but does anybody know more about this?

Buglet

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:29 PM

We are planning on giving her some IV bute before her trip. We dont have a way of loading the body into a vehicle to take her to the cremation site. Also, you have to be able to get the horse inside of the building at the cremation site. I believe that the cremation site does have ways to move a dead body around, but I have no idea how to get the body there if she was put down here at the farm. There is a copmany that will come to your farm and remove a body and do the cremation themselves, but they were way more expensive then taking the horse to the other place. It's very sad, but I'm just glad that she only has to endure this kind of suffering for a couple more days.

MistyBlue

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:39 PM

The place I know of here in CT that does cremations (on large animals) does not accept live animals. However, it's not easy finding someone who can transport a horse carcas. You need some sort of winch to slide or raise a body onto a flat bed or into a truck. It's not easy to do without the propert equipment.
All cremations as far as I know are private. It's not something they have crowds around for...it's also not something the owner stays around for the whole thing for. It takes hours to reduce an equine carcas to ash. Also it's rare to find a place that will cremate an entire horse...most will only do the head and one front leg. Not something I'd want to stick around and watch, having my horse decapitated. A full body cremation produces up to 120 lbs of ash and requires an enormous place to cremate it in unless they do the horse in pieces.
This owner may be having a sort of service before the horse is PTS and cremated and is calling it a private cremation for that reason? I'd also have my animal PTS before moving it somewhere unfamiliar whether it was in pain or not.

FortheFunofitFarm

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:47 PM

Buglet - Has she asked the crematory about transportation of the mare AFTER euth? I had to euthanize my dear, sweet, and yes, I hate to say it, but he was my favorite gelding, the day after Christmas. When the vet and I were making plans, he mentioned a fellow that would meet him at my place and take him to the crematory. I didn't use him and I can't remember the fellows name but maybe the crematory would know. If not, PM me and I can give you my vet's office number and they could give you his name.

Putting her in the trailer and hauling her THERE to be euthanized just seems so selfish on the owners part to me. The very last thing she needs is more suffering. I wish she could just be put down without any fear/anxiety (being taken away) or any pain.

Sandbarhorse

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:49 PM

Glad they're finally doing the right thing for the mare. RIP.

Isn't a private cremation a cremation of just that one horse? I have to admit I :lol: when I pictured a crowd gathering to watch.

FortheFunofitFarm

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:51 PM

Misty - I think by "private" she means her horses ashes only will come out of the incinerator. No other animals will be cremated with her. It's more expensive than a "group" cremation, but you know what you are getting back.

MistyBlue

Jan. 11, 2007, 01:52 PM

LOL...good point Sandhorse and Forthefunofit.. I hadn't thought of that, that it would be a single body being cremated. My first thought was a cremation closed to the public...as if it's a spectator sport.
I've had my pets cremated before, smaller animals than horses and did pay for the single animal cremation. But that's what it was on the form...single animal and not private. However...that's probably just the way this place has it listed. And probably lists it that way for folks like me who would say, "Hell no I don't want you selling tickets to it!"

touchstone-

Jan. 11, 2007, 05:13 PM

I've seen this done before. That way, she won't have to suffer through the ride, but the owner will be able to get her to the faciity without any special equipment.

It would probably make for a much less stressful end for the poor horse.

merrygoround

Jan. 11, 2007, 05:22 PM

I would have someone put the horse down, or do it yourself if necessary. I don't know if you can get the medication OTC.?????????????/

Euthanasia drugs are controlled substances.

shea'smom

Jan. 11, 2007, 05:27 PM

I had to get my Kelsey from a vet's two hours away. I had them put him down on the trailer. I hauled him to the site and left. I know they dragged him out with a tractor.
Also, we took one big guy to be autopsied. WE had very little trouble dragging him onto a two horse trailer with a ramp. However, at the other end, leave immediately and wait in the waiting room while they unload the horse.
Bless this old girl.

Tamara in TN

Jan. 11, 2007, 05:43 PM

Lookout

Jan. 11, 2007, 06:57 PM

Euthanasia drugs are controlled substances.

I believe you have to be registered with the DEA to get them. I know of someone who was considering putting an animal down and even with an MD in the family, it was an issue.

Appassionato

Jan. 11, 2007, 07:05 PM

I believe you have to be registered with the DEA to get them. I know of someone who was considering putting an animal down and even with an MD in the family, it was an issue.

Maybe it depends on where you live and the folks? I almost did it this past summer with another horse (Charger thread). Not saying what I was about to do was legal by any stretch, but I also seriously doubt it would have gone very far in the legal system either.

Glad to hear the horse will be receiving some pain meds. Maybe a nice breakfast too? Granted it may not be the way we all would like to have things done if the horse were ours, but I'm glad for the mare that whereever and however it has to be done, she'll get some peace.

DMK

Jan. 11, 2007, 07:11 PM

We are planning on giving her some IV bute before her trip.

I'd add a nice sedative or tranq to the mix - no need for the poor thing to have anymore stress in her life.

I have an old pony with DSLD, and I have considered the idea of donating him to the university when it is his time, so they could at least do all the blood/genetic tests, any non-invasive tests like ultrasounds and then use his body for research/necropsy after he was euthanized. I like the idea of him helping other DSLD horses, and I have no particular attachment to the body. The memories are just fine for me, so burial or removal is all the same to me when it comes to the remains. But I can't shake the feeling that being at a strange place even if it was only for 24 hours befor ethey put him down would be too stressful and not at all what he deserves. It's a tough decision.

beaulilly

Jan. 12, 2007, 02:04 AM

I'm glad the mare does not have to suffer anymore, but it would sure be nice if her last moments are in familiar and comfortable surroundings.

I've had two horses cremated, and here they also refer to it as "private" meaning only the ashes of your horse are returned no mixing with anyone else's ashes. There are two places that offer cremation here, one has a small crematorium so cannot do the horse "whole", the other is the SPCA and can do whole, it is important to ask as that information may not be offered. I got back about 60 pounds of ashes or so.

They were put down at home, then a local tow truck company came with a flat bed to bring them to the crematorium. You could try calling some of the tow truck companies in your area to see if they would be willing to bring the mare in after her passing.

Liberty

Jan. 12, 2007, 06:36 AM

Buglet,

I don't know where you are in MD, but cremations can be arranged through the Equine Medical Center in Leesburg, VA. They will put the horseowner in contact with the guy they use to transport the euthanized horse to the crematorium in Frederick, MD. He must be either be in attendance when the vet does the euthanization or arrive within a very short time afterwards. The transport guy is very nice, compassionate, and hauls only one horse in his special trailer with winch for loading.

After cremation, the ashes can be either picked up at the crematorium (they're put in a 5-gallon metal can) or sent to the Medical Center for the owner to pick up there. Not sure about the "private" vs. "group" cremation thing, or prices thereof, but going this route would mean that poor old mare won't have to endure a trailer ride and die in unfamiliar surroundings.

Whatever is decided, may that mare finally RIP. :cry:

morganmare

Jan. 12, 2007, 07:30 AM

At the barn I board at we have a horse that everyone thinks should be humanely put down also. The barn owner has even told the boarder that's what she would do if it was her horse. The horse is underweight, you can see his spine and hip bones protruding. He also behaves as if he doesn't know where his feet are and sometimes falls down because of a misstep. The vet has even told the owner that if she wanted him to, he would put her horse down. The owner just won't do it. I don't understand how an owner can look at their horse that seems to be falling apart and not do the right thing. Why do people do this to their horses? I am not blaming the vet at all, but why can't they come right out and say, you should put your horse out of its suffering? It is just so sad to see. :cry:

Buglet

Jan. 12, 2007, 07:38 AM

The owner does not want to see the horse be put down. I know that there is no way that the owner will be able to handle seeing her horse's body wenched into a trailer. She is also planning on driving over to the cremation site to help unload the horse and say her final goodbye. She is planning on leaving just before they put her down. Trust me, I am in no way trying to justify her decision to have the horse transported, but I do know how hard it is to see your horse put down, and then have chains hooked up to it's hind legs and have it drug/tossed into the back of a trailer/truck and hauled away.
I offered to take care of things if she chose to have the horse put down here at the farm, but she did not want to go that route. At this point, I am just relieved that soon the horse will no longer feel any pain.

Just Wondering

Jan. 12, 2007, 10:37 AM

Just Wondering

Jan. 12, 2007, 10:38 AM

Euthanasia drugs are controlled substances.

Yes - VERY controlled. Three locks at our clinic.

Liberty

Jan. 12, 2007, 11:14 AM

By Buglet:
I offered to take care of things if she chose to have the horse put down here at the farm, but she did not want to go that route.

Well then, I guess that's that. However, I just wanted to say that when I had my elderly mare put down, no way would I have wanted her to go through it in unfamiliar surroundings, and after the stress of a trailer ride.

She was euthanized at my parent's place (where she had lived for over 30 years), and my father (whom she knew VERY well) was by her side at that crucial moment since I could not bear to see her go down. Instead, I said my goodbyes right before the injection and then gone in the house to be with my mom.

As soon as my mare was down, I was back at her side as she breathed her last, her head cradled in my lap. The transport guy I mentioned in an earlier post showed up within minutes, and I again retreated into the house as I did not want to watch her being loaded. My father did say it was done very respectfully (well, as respectfully as it could be to winch a dead horse into a trailer). There was no excessive "dragging" and definitely no "tossing".

Bottom line, as you know, your friend doesn't have to witness the actual euthanasia if she doesn't feel the need to, nor would her horse be treated in an undignified manner, at least not by the transport guy that the Medical Center referred me to.

But this type of thing is, of course, a matter of personal preference, and we all do what we feel is best for the situation, as a whole.

MySparrow

Jan. 12, 2007, 12:35 PM

I haven't read this thread through, but I've seen already quite a few strong opinions in favor of putting down a mare they've never seen.

It is true that a horse will tell you when it's time. And perhaps this owner and this horse have not reached that time yet.

A lot of you would probably have put my mare Ruby down months before she told me it was time. It would have made you uncomfortable to watch her, perhaps. But I watched her. I watched her interacting with the rest of the herd, leaning up against her mate for comfort, nibbling the grass, drawing in huge draughts of fresh spring air, watching the birds. On the day when it was time it was time, and not before.

Perhaps what you could do is encourage the owner to watch other horses for a while. Just watch them. See how they move, how much interest they have in what's going on around them, how much pleasure they take in their food an each other's company. And then watch her mare and see how much different she is. Perhaps the owner could then see for herself the mare's approach to the Rainbow Bridge. Or maybe you will see that in fact she isn't quite ready yet.

We don't put horses down because it hurts us to watch them. We put them down when they tell us the pain is too great.

Blessings and good luck.