I need a barefoot support group... [Archive]

chism

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:00 PM

I've recently transitioned my 6 year old TB to a barefoot trim. I have transitioned another horse successfully in the past. In December I pulled his shoes, but just had a regular farrier trim. He had a bit of a transition where he was slightly ouchy, but some Keratex helped him along and he seemed to be fine. He's got really nice feet. After mulling it over awhile... 5 weeks ago I had my barefoot trimmer trim him for the first time, again he seemed fine. His feet look beautiful and his trot was gorgeous and floating. Then, we had two weeks of non-stop rain, and lots of flooding. While he had a relatively dry run-in, he's out 24/7 and the rest of the time he was basically standing in mud. Now he's lame on both fronts, one slightly more than the other but very reactive with hoof testers. Bute does not seem to make much difference so I'm thinking abcess. Something else peculiar...if he's trotted on soft footing, like sand or the mats in the aisle, he looks sound, but out in the paddocks with the rocks and uneven footing he's really gimpy even at a walk. My trainer (who thinks all performance horses need shoes) thinks I'm being cruel to him and that he's telling me he needs shoes, but he's been fine until recently. It's hard to say I'm doing the right thing for him when he's obviously uncomfortable. I don't know how to make him better. My SOP for an abcess is to soak , but in his case I wonder if it will just make the feet softer when I want them to toughen up. I know that I'm supposed to be walking him on gravel to help toughen him up, but it seems so cruel when it obviously pains him. I don't really know what I'm looking for by posting this, maybe some success stories, or some advice or anyone to tell me that I'm not the worst mother in the world.

colleent

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:17 PM

that is what happened with my guy. needless to say, he now has shoes back on. the shoes helped.

onthebit

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:22 PM

The timing of the weather stinks and I would wait a few weeks to see how things progress. Is he comfortable when moving around out in his field? I don't subscribe to the walking them over rocks to toughen them up theory. I have transitioned several to barefoot and I don't start asking them to walk on gravel or rocks until it is apparent that they are ready. If they are really ouchie and gimpy on the rocks I don't force the issue, I think its mean and potentially a futile exercise depending on why the gravel makes them gimp along. Waiting to allow the good trim to help them grow out a healthier foot is how I solve the gravel ouchies.

War Admiral

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:22 PM

Have you started the Keratex back up again? Might want to try that. My TB Avery gets very hurty on his unshod hinds when the ground is wet, his soles soften, and Your Correspondent gets lazy about the Keratex...

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:23 PM

Lots of rain softens the sole. Stepping on firmer protruding surfaces then can indeed be ouchy.

If you like the idea of barefoot, get some boots and put them on until the ground, and his feet, can harden up again.

Just My Style

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:28 PM

I am not, not, not an expert, but I have had barefoot horses for 25+ years. ;) When you have a lot of rain, it can soften up the hoof more than you want it. Unless you are able to put them in and dry them out for a few hours a day, this can be a problem. When their feet are softer, they are more prone to absesses and stone bruises. If it were me, I would wait it out and see if when the conditions improve, the horse improves. I would do my best to try and dry his feet out a bit and keep him on the type of ground that makes him happy. Frankly, I don't ever worry when horse is a bit gimpy on rocks. I can't jog "sound" on rocks barefoot or wearing hiking boots. :lol: And how realistic is it to hack on a bunch of rocks? If he was lame on arena footing, then I would be more worried. No, I do not think you are the worst mom. No, I don't think you should throw in the towel just yet and nail shoes on.

luvmytbs

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:50 PM

If you think he is abcessing, then the Epsom Salt soaks will help draw the abcess out. Yes, this wet weather really sucks.
I highly recommend the boots as well for daily walking him to get the circulation going. The more movement he gets, the quicker the progress.
Giving his feet a chance to dry out daily is a good idea.

Once he is further into his new barefoot lifestyle, the wet weather will not bother his feet as much.

We have been getting soaked here in KY a lot this spring, so I have standing water in my pastures (three pairs of ducks have moved in and are swimming on the puddles) but my guys are doing fine. They will spend several hours under the lean-to where it is pretty dry. Regardless, I have been trail riding on the weekends, and they aren't ouchy on the gravel at all. But they have been barefoot for several years now.

Hang in there, just make a few adjustments for the weather conditions for now.

CookiePony

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:50 PM

My barefoot trimmer told me to not overdo conditioning my guy's feet on gravel during his transition. She says it's important to strike a balance between encouraging his feet to toughen and avoiding discomfort for him.

For that reason she prescribed hoof boots and I have gradually stopped using them for riding (I would take them off every few days, then every other day, then most days, then every day). He was also turned out in them at first, then weaned off of them. Also-- he regressed a little bit this spring when it got really rainy, like your horse. I agree with others who have said that the moisture is softening his feet. But 5 weeks into transition is not a long time. I agree that he needs hoof boots to get him through this weather pattern at this stage.

My horse is 7 months into the transition and he is happy everywhere (even on quarter down in the arena) except he is careful on the gravel driveway, which has pretty big stones. Since we rarely walk on the driveway I feel OK with this.

ivy62

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:54 PM

I have done the barefoot thing on a flatfooted Tb also. The rain is your worst enemy! It not only softens the hoof and sole it brings all the rocks to the surface. I used boots during our transition and the helped a lot. Have you had x-rays to determine sole depth? If he has thin soles you might want to work on getting thicker doles too.... Checkout the group barefoothorsecare on yahoo they are really good....JMO

Sobriska

Jun. 2, 2006, 07:06 PM

If there is any way you can keep his feet dry for at least part of the day, that should be helpful. Consider the woody pet bedding as it will really dry the hooves. Iodine and formaldahyde or Keratex should help also.
Give it a little time. If you find barefoot is just not comfortable for this guy, don't feel bad for putting shoes back on. Sometimes as much as we want everything to be OK barefoot, the horse is just not comfy enough.
Good Luck!

Sobriska

Jun. 2, 2006, 07:06 PM

GansMyMan

Jun. 2, 2006, 08:06 PM

If his feet dry out and he still seems ouchy, or if you're pretty sure that the problem is abscess, another way (that doesn't involve water) to draw an abscess is tar, or ichthammol, which is also tar. They won't exacerbate the wet problem.

chism

Jun. 3, 2006, 05:47 AM

Thanks for your replies.
For those of you that recommend boots, are there any that are designed for longterm wear like turnout? My understanding is that most are not meant for turnout, just for short periods.

It's raining here today AGAIN.... waah

Thomas_1

Jun. 3, 2006, 06:56 AM

caballus

Jun. 3, 2006, 07:04 AM

Boots .... and walking. Or, walking on tarred surface. Lots of walking. Old Macs have a new design that are good. But, with boot-sucking mud in all this rain isn't helping. Any way to get him out of mud? Couple of horses here are tender on rocks with lots of rain but fine on sand and solid, un-muddy ground and absolutely fine when dry. Of course, the TB is the one who is the worst and as soon as the ground dries up his hooves are fine.

Think of it like this ... callous' get soft, too, when wet. If there is not sufficient callous build up then the feet are tender. There's been ALOT of wet weather in the last 5 months!! Also, 5 months is not sufficient time to build up the fibrocartiliginous tissue in the DC unless the horse is doing ALOT of moving. Miles a day on good, firm ground. The DC is probably about 50/50 with fatty tissue and with fc tissue at this point. This means that the fat squishes with each step instead of dissipating the concussive force. Once the DC is built up with mostly FC tissue then that will be more resilient and allow for greater protection to the foot from concussive shock. It all takes time and for sure, this stinkin' weather doesn't help one iota! :(

Pete Ramey has some great articles here on understanding just what is happening during transitional stages of going from shoes to barefoot: http://www.hoofrehab.com

Get some boots!

llsc

Jun. 3, 2006, 08:05 AM

Some horses really just can't go barefoot. He's a TB bred for speed, not a mustang who has good feet from natural selection. (The ones with bad feet got eaten young.) If he's really ouchy you might want to put his shoes back on, at least in front since he carries most of his weight there.

I have a welsh pony who will never need shoes and a TB mare who is so thin soled that my farrier thinks we now need to go to pads. I've tried everything on her soles and I feed her a biotin suppliment, bu nothing seems to make a difference. She just has lousy feet.

fourh mom

Jun. 3, 2006, 08:48 AM

Not sure why you've decided that barefoot is best for a young competition t/b but I'd be suggesting you need to consult a good equine vet and farrier about this lameness.

From the posting its highly likely that the horse has bruised or tender soles but best checked out.

I don't know what sort of competition you do with your t/b but I think if its anything serious that your horse will be very lucky to do it well barefoot.

If she consults a 'barefoot farrier' they will suggest options for keeping him barefoot. If she consults a 'shoeing farrier' they will suggest options for shoeing him.

The vet 'opinion' would be contingent on the same thing.

There are, I am sure, numerous TB's out there who are competing well barefoot. Some who are not. It isn't always because the one's who are have better feet - maybe it's because the ones who are have owners who are completley dedicated to helping them stay sound barefoot.

It's sort of like, is your horse going barefoot because he has good feet or does he have good feet because he's going barefoot?? :) sylvia

Thomas_1

Jun. 3, 2006, 09:45 AM

There are, I am sure, numerous TB's out there who are competing well barefoot. sylvia

Actually there aren't!

And I don't understand what you are talking about at all with regard to vet and farrier. A farrier (certainly in the UK) is competent and knowledgeable whether a horse is going to have shoes on or not.

The majority of my horses are shod - and I've a lot competition horses and t/b's. I do however have some barefoot.

EqTrainer

Jun. 3, 2006, 10:01 AM

Thomas, I have seen the shoeing work done in Europe and the UK and I have to say that if I could get my horses shod that well I would not be so adamant about mine being barefoot. For a lot of us, barefoot is the better option because the farriery work is so bad.

I used to live close enough to an absolutely superb farrier and all my horses were shod. I know enough about feet and shoeing to know that all the things the hard core barefoot people say about shoeing and what it does to the foot are not necessarily true. The examples they have been given to base their opinions on have certainly led them to the conclusions they have made, because again, most farriery work here in the USA is atrocious. If all you have to extrapolate from are 30 dead feet with too small shoes on contracted feet you bet you are going to determine that shoeing is detrimental to their feet.

I am not trying to start the shoeing/no shoeing debate here, just want to help Thomas to understand why so many people here are going barefoot. Thomas, count your blessings, as I did when I had a great farrier. Some days I think the move was not worth it.

Thomas_1

Jun. 3, 2006, 10:12 AM

I do indeed know that shoeing is appalling in the USA. I think I said when I've been over there I have to force myself away from what I instincitively always do with a horse.

Whenever I first see a horse I look at its feet. There it annoys and upsets me so much I try to avoid looking down!

However I honestly believe that its wrong - absolutely wrong - for folks to trim horses feet when they are not trained and this means the situation continues with no incentive for farriers to properly train.

You can find them in the USA but regrettably too many folks are botching horses feet !

EqTrainer

Jun. 3, 2006, 10:14 AM

I do indeed know that shoeing is appalling in the USA. I think I said when I've been over there I have to force myself away from what I instincitively always do with a horse.

Whenever I first see a horse I look at its feet. There it annoys and upsets me so much I try to avoid looking down!
Not trying to steal your farrier, but... they could make damn good money here!

Ok, really, I am trying to steal your farrier.

chism

Jun. 3, 2006, 11:01 AM

Not sure why you've decided that barefoot is best for a young competition t/b but I'd be suggesting you need to consult a good equine vet and farrier about this lameness.

From the posting its highly likely that the horse has bruised or tender soles but best checked out.

I don't know what sort of competition you do with your t/b but I think if its anything serious that your horse will be very lucky to do it well barefoot.

I can't resist the pun...Doubting Thomas eh?

I didn't say he was a competition horse. He's a prospect for me, probably mostly for lessons, hacking and some dressage. I don't believe that just because he came to me with racing plates that it means he needs shoes. He's got nice feet. He's been without shoes for 5 months already and hasn't shown this kind of discomfort until we had the major rain and flooding several weeks ago. I have two TB's that are shod and 4 horses that aren't, so I'm not against shoeing, just would prefer them not to have shoes if they don't need them, and I'm not convinced that he needs them. I'm not interested in turning this into a barefoot vs shod debate, there are enough of those already.
And FWIW...I work at an event barn, there was a highly respected farrier there, shoeing a boarders Prix St. George horse. He noticed my horse, offered to look at him, determined him to be sole sore.

Buxton Farrier

Jun. 3, 2006, 11:14 AM

It is a shame that there are so many bad shoers and trimmers here in the USA. That is because anyone can buy the tools and go butcher horses for a living. Also many of the courses and schools are severely lacking. There are some great farriers here if you can find them.
I don't agree that all farriers in the are UK are great either. At Soundfest last year there were three farriers from the UK. They said it was a great learning experience and will keep comeing back because though the UK is heavily regulated they are not very progressive and so most shoeing is traditional type. BTW there were also two trimmers there, both from Europe none from the US. One trimmer was a vet/trimmer/chiropractor/massage therapist all rolled up in one. Both the trimmers after the third day were very convinced in the need for theraputic shoeing and both decided that many of the horses they were struggling with should go into shoes for a while when they got back. One reason why farriers and trimmers need better working relationships is to give more consideration to the horse instead of being narrow minded and pushing a one-way only agenda. Soundfest is not a shoeing clinic and anyone is invited. It is attended by equine proffesionals from around the world focused on getting horses sound using whatever resources are available.

EqTrainer

Jun. 3, 2006, 12:36 PM

Thomas_1

Jun. 3, 2006, 02:49 PM

It is a shame that there are so many bad shoers and trimmers here in the USA. That is because anyone can buy the tools and go butcher horses for a living. .

I entirely agree with what you said there and please don't take it that I'm saying that all in the UK are good and all in the USA are bad because that isn't even in my mind.

However I honestly believe that the fact that folks there do their own horses feet is the prime cause. Its the same over here with Riding Schools - a heck of a lot of untrained, incompetent, limited experience folks take people for a ride ;) (in more ways than one) and good Riding Schools face unfair competition (and closure) from those who work without the overheads, insurance and so forth associated with running a business to higher standard.

Farriery Regulation goes a heck of a long way to prevention of the problem and with enforcement it means that training is high consistent standard. Of course though it does not totally prevent poor farriery and there are farriers over here I wouldn't want near my horses. However they tend to be the exception and because the market is strong, they tend to gravitate to serving only those less knowledgeable horse owners.

Its not my experience that techniques are traditional nor behind and indeed I'm of the evidential view that remedial and corrective shoeing is of exceptional standard and at the forefront.

I've got a study article about the changing skills requirements for farriers in the UK market if you are interested.

On my last trip to Oregon I helped a lady with 4 driving horses that had dreadfully trimmed unshod feet to find a decent farrier. I drove round extensively looking at horses out grazing and asking owners who did their horses feet - some I noted as "Avoid at all cost" and eventually we found a good farrier.

Jun. 3, 2006, 03:05 PM

However I honestly believe that its wrong - absolutely wrong - for folks to trim horses feet when they are not trained and this means the situation continues with no incentive for farriers to properly train.

I think you have it backwards ;)

If enough farriers continue to lose clients to the owners taking up trimming for themselves because the farriers can't trim for crap, then there will be enough incentive for the farriers to figure out what they are doing wrong and fix it.

But until enough owners (and vets!!!) learn enough about what feet should look like, the horses will continue to be retired due to "navicular", and/or the hocks will continue to be injected and countless $$ spend on chiros and massage, and all sorts of other "therapies" that are only fixing symptoms, not the root of the problem which is the feet.

To the OP:

If you horse has been barefoot for 5 months without real issues, and is sore now coinciding with all the rain and a new barefoot trimmer, than 1 of 2 things are going on (or both): The rain has softened the feet up enough that his not-yet-truly-transitioned feet are having a bit of a hard time, or the new trimmer did something in the trim that has caused the soreness. Or, as I said, a combination.

Neither of these are reason for ANYBODY to say "well then, your horse can't go barefoot, please put shoes on him before he keels over".

I will never understand why those who are pro-shoes or pro-whatworksforthehorse are so quick to say "if he doesn't have shoes and he's sore, put shoes on!!!", but I have yet to hear any of them say "If he has shoes and he's sore, maybe he'd be better off without them."

SuperSTB

Jun. 3, 2006, 06:01 PM

So true JB so very true... :D

LaraNSpeedy

Jun. 3, 2006, 06:44 PM

Once upon a time, most of the people I knew when I showed hunters as a kid (A levels) pulled the shoes at the end of the year through the wintery early months to let the feet recover. This was done every year and thus the feet recovered easily and quickly. I never saw a lot of horses with navicular issues nor hock issues like I do now.

Nowdays, everyone shoes 24-7, 12 months a year every year. Horses live in their shoes with no break. Thus why when we pull their shoes - sometimes the initial recovery period can be as long as 6-8 months. Shoes are nailed to the walls and the horse stands on the walls instead of on the whole foot so pressure is put on pulling the dead wall from the live tissue causign separation - a lot of times the hoof needs to completely grow out from top to bottom to get rid of that.

I have rehabbed a lot of feet - I have had horses - OTTBs sometimes that I could pull the shoes and ride them the next day - and a few it took a bit longer. I know of some that took as long as 6-8 months but out of abotu - gosh - 50 horses I personally have rehabbed - it has not taken me more than about 2 months tops. TO GET to a sound horse - their feet may still look a little ugly but I am not trying to achieve pretty initially but sound and strong.

I do use Old Macs. But most boots, including Old Macs can turn when a horse plays when not watched and thus I would not turn a horse out in any boots. I think the old style hard plastic clip on type are the only ones good for that. But you do not want to have them living in the boots because it is being barefoot and moving on the feet that make the feet harden up.

I think what you need to do for now until the feet have recovered - to keep the horse in when it is wet out - to try to turn him out only on sand if the ground is wet. All my horses are barefoot now - my TB went through to second level dressage until Igot pregnant and since then he's my pet - but he's been barefoot for 7 years now. He competed barefoot and no one noticed - he has gorgeous big feet and most farriers who saw them would give me advice never to shoe a horse with such great feet. But it certainly was not that way when I first pulled his shoes. He was sore for weeks and even almost to two months. He was one of the hardest ones - and I rode him mostly in the arena and kept him in when it rained.

NOW, he can stand in rain and mud and whatever in the pasture - and his feet are not much affected. They may be slightly softer after rain - they may be slightly harder in drought times but his feet are so healthy from within that overall, the quality and condition are not affected.

Shoes are way over rated.

ivy62

Jun. 3, 2006, 07:38 PM

I am one who has a OTTB that had lousy feet but he has been fixed! He is barefoot behind and does wear shoes up front but he has special pads that encourage sole growth that if he throws a shoe he is sound on the barefoot! Even if your horse has bad feet they can be fixed if guided to fix themselves. It requires good nutrition, not only supplements but sometimes different feed all together and most of all good farriers! and lots of movement. Very difficult to find here in NY! I am lucky that I not only have one but 2 of them who are presently working on my horse. To know if someone is good you must be versed in the hoof mechanics so you know what you are looking at. Not that you could trim them but have a basic idea of how the foot works and how it should look. Where are you located?

ivy62

Jun. 3, 2006, 07:41 PM

Auventera Two

Jun. 3, 2006, 08:25 PM

Also, I have used the old macs and loved them! My horse was turned out in them and so on and we had no problem. The biggest problem is proper fit. If the fit right and are adjusted right you should be okay...

Yup, I have Old Mac's too and LOVE THEM! I have only had them a little over a week but I've ridden in them a total of 5 times now and my mare really steps out with her boots on. She lands very solidly heel first in them and has a quick breakover. We did 5 1/2 miles today over gravel and the boots were a livesaver.

Buxton Farrier

Jun. 4, 2006, 12:24 AM

Eq Trainer
Hoofcare and Lameness Journal does a review on Soundfest every year. Their journal is online as well and might have some information posted. It was held last year at Mission Farrier School. It has been held a UC Davis in the past and will be in Hawaii next year. There is no information yet on next years event.
They did offer shoeing modification workshops at Soundfest, but no one was interested last year so they didn’t happen. Many of the horses that got shoes got them glued on. Some were just given a proper trim, some chiropractic work and left barefoot. Most of these horses were hard cases that had been through the ringer of various vets, farriers, barefoot trimmers etc. in the past to get them sound. By putting many heads together in one place and presenting various solutions all of these horses were helped and on their way to recovery. Almost all them showed immediate and drastic improvement once they were balanced and got the correct hoof support they had been needing. When asked about long term success, and recovery the usual reply was once the horse can go barefoot and no longer needs artificial support then he is fully recovered.
I never heard anyone bash going barefoot and the two trimmers were very welcomed and accepted. As a farrier it is our priority and responsibility to get and keep all horses under our care sound using whatever is best for the horse.:yes:

Buxton Farrier

Jun. 4, 2006, 12:38 AM

It may be the wetness or the trimmer its hard to say. Please post pictures. I wouldn't put shoes on him at this point just get his feet to dry out and do whatever it takes to keep him from abcessing. Styrofoam and duct tape if need be. I live in the Pacific Northwest where it is wet all year. It is a tough place for barefoot horses. Many do well, but it is high maintenance. Most people around here are not willing to do all that is required to keep horses barefoot in this saturated environment.

Buxton Farrier

Jun. 4, 2006, 12:53 AM

I will never understand why those who are pro-shoes or pro-whatworksforthehorse are so quick to say "if he doesn't have shoes and he's sore, put shoes on!!!", but I have yet to hear any of them say "If he has shoes and he's sore, maybe he'd be better off without them."[/QUOTE]

JB
What is wrong with being pro whatworksforthehorse? If you are not pro whatworksforthehorse then are you pro whatever doesn't work for the horse like barefoot at all costs even if it kills him? What point does that prove?

If a horse is sore in shoes then the first thing every farrier and vet I know does is pull the shoes to find the problem. I do not know of a pro-shoe zealot that insists on shoes even if the horse is sore in them. In fact every farrier I know has a large amount of barefoot horses under their care.

DocHF

Jun. 4, 2006, 12:53 AM

Chism
Is there anyway to create a dry area where he can stand at least half the time?
Over 30 years of keeping barefoot horses, I am not an expert, but experienced. I've had one hoof abcess in that time. But wet footing destroys foot health faster than any thing else except a bad trim.
It is worth spending the couple of thousand dollars in creating a drained paddock with dry footing or else keeping him in a dry stall for half the day. I too live in the "pacific Northwest, wet coastal area and this is how I solved the problem.It might not even cost you that much, but thats around what it cost me. If you board it is even worth doing at a rental stable if you will stay there a couple of years. What price is paying board on a lame horse anyway?

fourh mom

Jun. 4, 2006, 01:24 AM

Actually there aren't!

And I don't understand what you are talking about at all with regard to vet and farrier. A farrier (certainly in the UK) is competent and knowledgeable whether a horse is going to have shoes on or not.

The majority of my horses are shod - and I've a lot competition horses and t/b's. I do however have some barefoot.

Actually, there are... and I'm not in the UK. A 'farrier' over here is NOT the same as a natural barefoot trimmer. They are not always well-versed in how to do a performance barefoot trim... for the most part they would only do a shoeing trim and leave the shoe off... and it's not the same. sylvia

Just My Style

Jun. 4, 2006, 06:51 AM

CookiePony

Jun. 4, 2006, 07:37 AM

Not sure why you've decided that barefoot is best for a young competition t/b but I'd be suggesting you need to consult a good equine vet and farrier about this lameness.

Check out:
Dr. Robert Bowker's site: http://www.cvm.msu.edu/research/efl/
The American Association of Natural Hoof Care Practitioners: http://www.aanhcp.org/page4.html
Pete Ramey's site: http://www.hoofrehab.com/rehabilitations1.htm
http://www.barefoothorse.com/
http://www.ironfreehoof.com/
Easy Care: http://www.easycareinc.com/barefootinfo.aspx

You'll find a multitude of reasons here for why the OP might have decided to leave her horse barefoot. Vets and farriers are well represented on these sites. You might not agree with her reasons, but she does have them.

caballus

Jun. 4, 2006, 08:27 AM

Just to throw a bone into the discussion: yes, many people shoe for season then pull the shoes to "let the hooves recover" over the winter. If shoes are not a source of negative impact on hooves then why do people have to remove them to "let the hooves recover"? Recover from what? Rest from what? Just a thought ...

Jun. 4, 2006, 09:33 AM

JB
What is wrong with being pro whatworksforthehorse?
Sorry, that was worded incorrectly, but I'd hoped the followup on that would have explain what I meant.

What I meant was: If folks complain so much about a barefooter not willing to just say "slap shoes on him because he's sore", then why are they, being pro-shoes, or even often neither for or against shoes or barefoot but always quick to put shoes on at the slightest hint of barefoot soreness, just as guilty by never saying "if he's sore with shoes on, take them off and see what happens". It just never seems to work that way.

Thomas_1

Jun. 4, 2006, 11:58 AM

You'll find a multitude of reasons here for why the OP might have decided to leave her horse barefoot. You might not agree with her reasons, but she does have them.

I have actually NEVER said whether I agree nor disagree with her reasons - I merely asked what they were as I wanted to understand the history etc prior to making any recommendation etc.

There seems to be a huge presumption that I am in some way anti keeping horses barefoot and I have actually posted to say that I do have horses of my own that don't have shoes and never have.

With regard to those who said they know of high-level successful competition horses.... particularly t/b's in jump racing, 3 day eventing but ODE or showjumping either. I've known of one racehorse, and one eventer competing at preliminary level but that's all and also I know there's a couple of arabs doing endurance successfully. And one of my barefoot horses is indeed an arab. I'd be very interested to know which ones posters have seen and are talking about though because I contend that its not normal and certainly not at the highest levels?

chism

Jun. 4, 2006, 01:59 PM

I have actually NEVER said whether I agree nor disagree with her reasons - I merely asked what they were as I wanted to understand the history etc prior to making any recommendation etc.

The main reason is that I'm not convinced that nailing steel to my horses feet won't have some type of effect to long term soundness.
I'm not against shoes for those that need them, just believe that far too many people do it, just because that's the way things have always been done. I've got a young horse with no apparent soundness issues, no training agenda or timetable, a clean slate....I want him to tell me if he needs shoes, not just assume that he needs them because he came to me with them.

For those of you that have replied...thank you. With the newest round of showers, things are soaked here again. I'm going to put him on a couple days of stall rest until things dry up.

Buxton Farrier

Jun. 4, 2006, 02:26 PM

Such is the delima of domestication and keeping horses in our environment instead of environments more suited to their needs. Maybe Cabullus can chime in and educate people on the detriments of stall rest and restricting movement.

CookiePony

Jun. 4, 2006, 02:53 PM

I have actually NEVER said whether I agree nor disagree with her reasons -

I said that you might disagree with the OP-- might being the operative word because up to that point she hadn't really discussed her reasons with us, and so of course you couldn't have said whether you agreed or disagreed. By saying that "you might not agree with her reasons, but she does have them," I meant to emphasize that while people disagree on the merits of shod vs. unshod, it's important to keep in mind that those who choose to leave ther horses barefoot have often thought a lot about reasons.

I merely asked what they were as I wanted to understand the history etc prior to making any recommendation etc.

I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. From your phrasing, I had gotten the impression that you weren't familiar with barefoot philosophies.

chism, is there any way/ anywhere you can at least ride or hand walk your horse while it is so wet outside? Do you have a barn aisle or do you have any friends with indoor arenas? If all you have is a gravel driveway, those hoof boots will help. The more movement, the better at this point.

JumpingPaints

Jun. 4, 2006, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Thomas_1
Actually there aren't! (thoroughbreds competing successfully barefoot).

These two have been eventing barefoot thoroughbreds for years:http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Section_23.htm At least one of them is now going intermediate.

I don't have a thoroughbred, but have a horse with horrible feet, and three different farriers couldn't help his feet with shoes. So we tried taking them off, and now - to everyone's surprise - his feet are perfect, for the first time ever. We have no traction problems riding and jumping.

To the OP - iodine (7% strength) is really really good at hardening up soles in the wet. I would stay away from the formaldehyde though - it's nasty toxic.

Thomas_1

Jun. 4, 2006, 03:59 PM

[QUOTE=JumpingPaints](thoroughbreds competing successfully barefoot).

These two have been eventing barefoot thoroughbreds for years:http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Section_23.htm At least one of them is now going intermediate.

IQUOTE]

And that is the horse I meant. So is it the only one then????????

Lookout

Jun. 4, 2006, 05:20 PM

IWith regard to those who said they know of high-level successful competition horses.... particularly t/b's in jump racing, 3 day eventing but ODE or showjumping either. I've known of one racehorse, and one eventer competing at preliminary level but that's all and
I don't know who it was but it was reported that someone just round around Badminton barefoot,and there is an English eventer going Intermediate level regularly barefoot (American Interdmediate, I forget what that is across the pond but it's **).

Silk

Jun. 4, 2006, 05:40 PM

It is a shame that there are so many bad shoers and trimmers here in the USA. That is because anyone can buy the tools and go butcher horses for a living. .

Sadly, tis is very true. There are a number of "barefoot trimmers" in my area who could fit this description. Just becasue a horse doesn't limp after it is trimmed does NOT mean it was trimmed correctly.

There are many good farriers (yup...good ol regualr shoeing farriers) who are perfectly capable and willing to keep a horse well trimmed and barefoot. In hunter-land, there are tons of great ponies that win at the "A" level that are trimmed by the same farrier that puts fancy shoes on the others in the barn. These have been going sound and winning for years with some barefoot specialist who takes a 3-day course and hangs out his or her shingle!

Thomas_1

Jun. 4, 2006, 06:01 PM

The eventer is the one I meant and Simon Earl whose horses I've actually seen is hardly extremely successful having had only 7 runs with relatively small fields albeit - 4 wins, 3 2nds

Silk

Jun. 4, 2006, 06:17 PM

Bottom line here...if I were doing cross country or jumpers on grass, I would want studs..and I cant think of a way to attach them to my horse's hooves without the actual shoe first;)

Whether to shoe your horse or not depends not only on what your horse "needs" but also what your discipline requires.

No offence to the jumpers shown in those links, but those fences are pretty low. I think the single white rail may be 2'6" and the oxer on the bottom is barely 3'. Those are not "jumper" fences at typical shows. I seriously can't imagine a jumper on a wet grand prix field without stude ,shudder>

cosmos mom

Jun. 4, 2006, 06:24 PM

Chism- Just a note of support. I took my horse barefoot about 1 1/2 years ago and I am very happy I did it. prior to going barefoot, cosmo had high heels, a tendency to break out all of the nail holes on his feet, and, due to his long legs and shorter back- he could pull a shoe off underneatha bell boot! Unfortunately, I don't have any before pics of his feet, but here:

http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c359/cdooling/

are some photos of his feet taken after he had been out of shoes abotu a year. They look great. He has done very weel barefoot, but during the transition period, I definately found the Old Mac boots very helpful. We ride 6 days a week, go to hunter paces, trail ride and will be showing in horse trilas this summer- he has also competed in hunter and jumper classes barefoot. I would not consider putting shoes back on him unless it became a traction issue with cross country which, by most accounts wouldnt happen unless we went above training level. Cosmo has been happier and a better mover barefoot- hang in there!

cosmos mom

Jun. 4, 2006, 06:26 PM

Jun. 4, 2006, 06:28 PM

I'm going to put him on a couple days of stall rest until things dry up.

Is there ANY way you can get your hands on some boots? Movement is so important to the foot that is transitioning. It's important to all the feet, but these in particular.

That said, a few days won't hurt. But the longer you keep him up to get his feet dried out, the longer things in general will take :)

chism

Jun. 5, 2006, 05:25 AM

I would put him in boots, but I don't know of any that are recommended for turnout. He lives out 24/7 usually. I'm not a fan of stall rest, just trying to give his feet a chance to dry out a little bit. He was not this ouchy when I took his shoes off in December...so I'm worried it's the wet that's causing this. I should clarify because I'm not sure I mentioned this before...he's not just a little ouchy under saddle, he's really ouchy and not rideable.

Silk

Jun. 5, 2006, 05:43 AM

Marjorie Smith's web site also says that jumpers and eventers of a certain level will probably need shoes- barefoot is not appropriate for everything- but if you are bring a horse along, no need to put them in shoes before it's necessary ;)

And that, I totally agree with! Whatever works for the horse and rider combo. Mine could go barefoot, but he is often ouchy and he is not the most stoic animal;) When I was not riding him a lot, he was fine. As soon as he went back into training, he got ouchy and within 3 days, I had shoes back on him.

From what I have experienced (and I am ONLY talking from experience) the horses that are successfully barefoot are not ridden often. AGAIN, this is only what I have experienced.

cosmos mom

Jun. 5, 2006, 05:48 AM

I would put him in boots, but I don't know of any that are recommended for turnout. He lives out 24/7 usually. I'm not a fan of stall rest, just trying to give his feet a chance to dry out a little bit. He was not this ouchy when I took his shoes off in December...so I'm worried it's the wet that's causing this.

call the manufacturers and ask about turning out- I have turned cosmo out in old macs without a problem-I guess it depends on how well they fit the horse.

Silk

Jun. 5, 2006, 05:49 AM

....because the farriers can't trim for crap...."

That is bullshit! A barefoot horse of ours who was just done by a "regular" farrier (who apparently can't trim for crap, as you so eloquently put it) just WOWED my GP rider/trainer at a recent lesson with her gaits. Apparently, "crap" is a great way to describe purity of gaits?

LMH

Jun. 5, 2006, 05:56 AM

.

From what I have experienced (and I am ONLY talking from experience) the horses that are successfully barefoot are not ridden often. AGAIN, this is only what I have experienced.

Huh??? Actually while that may be true of your experience that is far from true about barefoot horses in general.

Again...just my experience;)

So how would you define not often? A few days a week? An hour or two a day? An endurance ride?

Just curious.:)

Auventera Two

Jun. 5, 2006, 06:25 AM

From what I have experienced (and I am ONLY talking from experience) the horses that are successfully barefoot are not ridden often. AGAIN, this is only what I have experienced.

:eek: What?! I'm new to the "barefoot thing" as in a real barefoot trim, but most of our horses have been barefoot most of their lives. I've had the opportunity to read stories and talk to people who ride and even compete very successfully on a schedule.

My main riding mare has been barefoot since last year, and I ride her at least 2-3 times per week for at least an hour each time. Some weeks she's ridden 4 times per week. Maybe you don't consider that "much riding" but I do. The only thing that has bothered her was 10 straight days of rain.

However, this weekend we did a 5 1/2 mile horse race, of which about 4 miles of it was on nasty, ugly gravel (literally big rocks) and asphalt. She wore her Old Mac's on the front and went barefoot behind. She never took a sore step and after the race was totally sound on her hind feet. I didn't want to make her go barefoot on the fronts because of all the rain we've been having, and her feet still don't have the concavity they need for me to be comfortable yet on that terrain for that distance.

I was shaking my head as the other shod horses were slipping and sliding on the asphalt but my girl, and the totally barefoot horses trucked right on with excellent traction. I watched one gelding do the SPLITS with his hind legs on the asphalt when he spooked a little and his shoes slid out from under him. He then walked off with his hind legs snapping up to his belly because his legs hurt.

All the barefoot horses except one, crossed the finish line totally sound - even after those 4 miles of hoof killing rocks and asphalt. One barefoot horse was totally lame at the finish but it was his hocks. They wrapped his hocks in ice boots and said he'd blown them out before. It wasn't hoof related that I could tell.

Most of the rocks were as big as the palm of your hand. I'm not talking about smooth little pea gravel. This was construction grade, filler rock. And there was not much room to get off the rocks and into the grass. Even the grass had rocks in it. But these barefoot horses finished sound. So in order for them to finish sound, I would say they had to have some decent hooves with decent trims and decent conditioning. Edited to addd - some of the horses did have some good chips out of the hooves from all those rocks, but they were still sound at least.

Any old stall puff with soft, tender feet would have been lame after the first 100 yards! I think the success of going barefoot lies mostly in the conditioning to the types of terrain you want the horse to go on.

Look at the people in other countries who walk on hot coals. Do you think I could do that?? Heck no! But I haven't been conditioning for it all my life either. But they have, and so they can do it.

cosmos mom

Jun. 5, 2006, 06:26 AM

From what I have experienced (and I am ONLY talking from experience) the horses that are successfully barefoot are not ridden often. AGAIN, this is only what I have experienced.

This has not been my experience at all. We have 3 very competetive horses that are barefoot in our barn- one is a jumper pony, the other is a dressage pony that also does a lot of trail riding and hunter paces and my horse- all of whom are ridden 6 days a week and compete on a regular basis. There are also 3-4 more horses at the bare that do not compete, but are in rigorous lesson programs and are ridden 5-6 days a week that are barefoot and sound. I would have to say that if the only horses that you have seen go barefoot successfully are not in work, then they don't have a good trimming program. One issue would be that if a shod horse has issues, people always think "lets put him in pads, trailers, a wedge, etc." If a horse is recently taken from shoes and needs a little transition time, rather that boots that cost about what a shoeing job costs, people think" this horse can't go barefoot, the's put shoes on him!". Logic would dictate that whan transitioning a horse from shoes, they may need a little time or some boots to deal with the changes taking place in the foot. Another common mistake is letting horses go too long between trims- many people wouldn't dream of letting their competioion horse go past 5 weeks on shoes, but will leave a trimmed horse go 8 or 10 weeks. My horse goes 4-5 weeks on a trim- sometimes 3 weeks if he needs it sooner. It's just a different school of thought.

caballus

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:16 AM

"From what I have experienced (and I am ONLY talking from experience) the horses that are successfully barefoot are not ridden often."

Um, actually, its the other way around. The horse that DOESN'T get ridden and doesn't move around much is the one that is going to have issues. Aside from the trim MOVEMENT of the horse is the most important aspect to rehabbing or transitioning a horse from shoes to barefoot. Movement on good, solid, hard, firm ground. Get the circulation going full hilt through the hoof and the lower limbs. That circulation brings O2 and nutrients that will strengthen, harden, and increase horn growth. Good functioning of the hooves will help the frog and DC do their job properly and provide plenty of shock absorption and energy dissipation. This, in turn, will affect everything else about the horse and its gaits and health and mind.

I've always had barefooted horses and used to have a full lesson program as well as competitions. My Appendix jumped regularly (up to 4+ feet) as well as competed in Barrel Racing (up to 24 years old) and other Gymkhana games. We also did up through 2nd Level Dressage and Trail Riding. All barefoot. My first horse came with shoes and elevated pads for Navicular. Lost the shoes, trimmed him up .. never wore shoes again and was able to do the Waters Farm Trail Ride (20 or 30 mi?) without any issues at all. That was back in the 80's before all this barefoot vs. shoes stuff was even an issue. Of course people still said I was killing my horse by not putting shoes back on. When I had to re-home him, he was sound and healthy at 25 years old.

Riding and movement is the BEST thing to do for barefooted horses. If your horse is tender for awhile during tranisitioning get some boots and RIDE! Miles and miles and miles.

Silk

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:21 AM

Huh??? Actually while that may be true of your experience that is far from true about barefoot horses in general.

Again...just my experience;)

So how would you define not often? A few days a week? An hour or two a day? An endurance ride?

Just curious.:)

I know...I know...but that is why I said it. Seriously...the horses I know who are barefoot at some of the backyard barns are ridden maybe 1x per week or less. Unless, of course, you count the poor horse whose owner thought Strasser was a great way to rehab him after a rotation in both fronts...making him walk on gravel and cutting his feet til they bled. Hence, I have always been leary of "self proclaimed hoof experts."

Just my experiences...I know there are many barefoot horses. My own Hackney was/is barefoot and when I had him was trimmed by a regular farrier. A large pony I used to lease was barefoot and again, trimmed by a regualr farrier. She won the hacks regularly in the modified adults at "A" shows against horses. My own will go barefoot if the footing is great, but where he is now the footing is not. I put shoes on him at the request of the traienr who was looking for a different type of movement.

I am certainly not against going barefoot, and am all for it in many circumstances. However, I think there are a lot of people who force the barefoot issue on horses who would be happier in shoes. Many people do it for the cost effectiveness of it.

Silk

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:47 AM

Riding and movement is the BEST thing to do for barefooted horses. If your horse is tender for awhile during tranisitioning get some boots and RIDE! Miles and miles and miles.

I am not arguing that fact. What I am saying is the horses I know are not ridden very often.

One barefoot horse was totally lame at the finish but it was his hocks. They wrapped his hocks in ice boots and said he'd blown them out before. It wasn't hoof related that I could tell.

maybe, maybe not. Many of the barefoot proponents say that the majority of lameness is caused by the hoof.

She wore her Old Mac's on the front and went barefoot behind.

OK, while not technically wearing "shoes" she is not technically barefoot, either. If you want to argue that old macs are better for their feet than metal shoes, I may agree. However, old macs are not appropriate in many situations. And again, if the horse needs old macs, he is not technically barefoot.

We have 3 very competetive horses that are barefoot in our barn- one is a jumper pony, the other is a dressage pony that also does a lot of trail riding and hunter paces and my horse- all of whom are ridden 6 days a week and compete on a regular basis.

And that is great! But again, I am saying that it is not for all horses. And. like I said, I have had barefoot horses...but some are not comfortable and I dont understand the huge push to force them into a barefoot life. However, I also believe my horse should be fed a certain way, and that grains are not a one-size-fits-all. Neither are blanketing requirements, supplements or training programs. Why should feet be any different? A lot of the barefoot people believe their horse should be out 24/7 and I dont. Mine likes to be in...I know that.

I have three major issues here:
1. I dont believe ALL horses can go barefoot comfortably.
2. I dont believe all people who call themselves "barefoot trimmers or hoof experts" are knowledgeable.
3. I take offense at anyone who says "traditional" farriers can't keep a barefoot horse healthy and sound with a "normal" trim.

cosmos mom

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:50 AM

I am certainly not against going barefoot, and am all for it in many circumstances. However, I think there are a lot of people who force the barefoot issue on horses who would be happier in shoes. Many people do it for the cost effectiveness of it.

Again, I would say that rather than just throwing shoes on a horse that is barefoot and having transition issues- there are things that can be done. Why not try to address the issue and keep the horse barefoot? Many horses do not need boots long term- just during the transition period. Another point: barefoot is not a cost effective method if the horse is not sound and rideable.

as to your 3 points
1. an unsound horse will be unsound barefoot- also a horse with a lot of pathalogical changes to the hoof may take longer to come sound than you may be comfortable with, but it dosen't mean it won't happen.
2. As with shoers, some are good and some are not- it is up to the owner to learn and to find appropriate people to work on the horse, shod or not.
3. You say that you are offended by the suggestion that farrier trims can't keep horses sound, and yet you say you don't know of any horses that can stay barefoot and be sound in regular work. I would ask you to consider that this MAY be because it is a pasture trim and not a trim designed for performance horses.

Silk

Jun. 5, 2006, 08:12 AM

1. an unsound horse will be unsound barefoot-

not according to many barefoot proponants.

2. As with shoers, some are good and some are not- it is up to the owner to learn and to find appropriate people to work on the horse, shod or not.

Are you supporting my original point or negating it?

3. You say that you are offended by the suggestion that farrier trims can't keep horses sound, and yet you say you don't know of any horses that can stay barefoot and be sound in regular work. I would ask you to consider that this MAY be because it is a pasture trim and not a trim designed for performance horses.

Really? Actually I said quite the opposite, which you would know if you took the time to read what I wrote rather than try to argue everything I wrote.

cosmos mom

Jun. 5, 2006, 09:02 AM

not according to many barefoot proponants.

Are you supporting my original point or negating it?

Really? Actually I said quite the opposite, which you would know if you took the time to read what I wrote rather than try to argue everything I wrote.

I really wasn't trying to argue every point, just respond:) As to the first point, I guess it depends on who you are talking to and the specific situation. If a horse that has, by all accounts, bad feet goes dead lame because they are taken barefoot, I suppose it could mean that the horse can't go barefoot, or it could mean that the horse had existing patholgies that were exposed when the horse went barefoot- I guess time frame is usually the discerning factor. Would the horse come sound? Probably, if given time- but most horses in this situation are taken barefoot because they were not sound to begin with and it was a last resort.

I think that we both agree that not all farriers or barefoot trimmers are created equally.

As far as my last response being opposite to what you were saying, I did not read evey post you made, only the ones pertaining to when I entered the thead- You said that the only horses you knew that were successfully barefoot were not ridden very often- I really wasn't trying to be agrumentative for argument's sake, just to present that if this was the case, maybe it could be correlated to the farrier trim as opposed to one designed for optimal performance;)

Lookout

Jun. 5, 2006, 09:25 AM

Lookout

Jun. 5, 2006, 09:26 AM

In hunter-land, there are tons of great ponies that win at the "A" level that are trimmed by the same farrier that puts fancy shoes on the others in the barn. These have been going sound and winning for years with some barefoot specialist who takes a 3-day course and hangs out his or her shingle!
I thought you said barefoot horses didn't do any work? :confused:

Jun. 5, 2006, 09:27 AM

That is bullshit! A barefoot horse of ours who was just done by a "regular" farrier (who apparently can't trim for crap, as you so eloquently put it) just WOWED my GP rider/trainer at a recent lesson with her gaits. Apparently, "crap" is a great way to describe purity of gaits?

You apparently didn't understand a word of what I was saying.

The whole sentence was:
"If enough farriers continue to lose clients to the owners taking up trimming for themselves because the farriers can't trim for crap, then there will be enough incentive for the farriers to figure out what they are doing wrong and fix it."

This implies that the owners are taking things into their own hands because THEIR farriers/trimmers can't seem to get the trim right.

If their horses were sound and riders happy, then the trim wouldn't be crap, now would it ;)

Of course there are some farriers out there who can properly trim a foot whether a shoe is applied or not. Gene Ovnicek comes to mind ;)

And, you just contradicted yourself with
"From what I have experienced (and I am ONLY talking from experience) the horses that are successfully barefoot are not ridden often."
and
"A barefoot horse of ours who was just done by a "regular" farrier ... just WOWED my GP rider/trainer at a recent lesson with her gaits."
and you comments about the many A ponies who are competing barefoot. So, which is it ;)

So apparently you HAVE seen a barefoot horse or two who is ridden regularly ;) Perhaps not many, but at least one ;)

When you get into real backyard situations, no, the horses aren't likely to be ridden much, but I seriously doubt that has anything to do with being barefoot. I would wager a guess that many real backyard backyard situations have barefoot horses in order to save money by not shoeing. I'd bet if these horses had shoes they'd still not be ridden much. But as I see time and time again, someone who is either pro-shoes, or non-commital, would never say something like "I bet those horses aren't ridden much because the shoes and/or the improper trim is making them sore." :no:

chism, many folks have used Old Macs 24x7 for turnout when there was a need, such as you have. Would you want to do it for months and months? No, not likely. But for short term use, it's certainly worked well for many horses.

Lookout

Jun. 5, 2006, 09:37 AM

However, this weekend we did a 5 1/2 mile horse race, of which about 4 miles of it was on nasty, ugly gravel (literally big rocks) and asphalt.

I was shaking my head as the other shod horses were slipping and sliding on the asphalt but my girl, and the totally barefoot horses trucked right on with excellent traction. I watched one gelding do the SPLITS with his hind legs on the asphalt when he spooked a little and his shoes slid out from under him. He then walked off with his hind legs snapping up to his belly because his legs hurt.

... those 4 miles of hoof killing rocks and asphalt.

Most of the rocks were as big as the palm of your hand. I'm not talking about smooth little pea gravel. This was construction grade, filler rock. And there was not much room to get off the rocks and into the grass. Even the grass had rocks in it.

Why would anyone organize an event on such footing to begin with?

Silk

Jun. 5, 2006, 09:39 AM

I

I really wasn't trying to be agrumentative for argument's sake, just to present that if this was the case, maybe it could be correlated to the farrier trim as opposed to one designed for optimal performance;)

I didnt think so, which is why I was so surprised. Again, I think barefoot is great...but I also believe that a lot of competition horses wear shoes for a reason. I do think there are a number of people who are adamant about their horses being barefoot becasue of pressure from others, or costs associated with shoes. I also think there are a huge number of people who hang out a shingle after taking a course or clinic and call themselves "hoof care experts." I have the same issue with people who pass the intructors test and call themselves a "trainer."

I dont have a problem with barefoot...I do have a problem with preaching the evils of shoes. I also have a problem with people comparing today's horses to the mustangs. What works for them does not always work for our horses today.

Jun. 5, 2006, 10:03 AM

There are also a great number of horses who have shoes on simply because that's what owners think you are supposed to do. Many of these have farriers who can't do anything but a pasture trim, so the horses can't be barefoot in that situation, and the owners (and farriers!) don't know any better, so think that the horse must have shoes.

And like you, I too have issues with anyone who has an anvil and forge and calls themselves a farrier, regardless of formal training (or any training at all!) or trainers who aren't or equine dentists who do horrible jobs or any other situation. Even some vets shouldn't be practicing. If they graduated bottom of their class, they're still a DVM.

Lookout

Jun. 5, 2006, 10:06 AM

Once upon a time, most of the people I knew when I showed hunters as a kid (A levels) pulled the shoes at the end of the year through the wintery early months to let the feet recover. This was done every year and thus the feet recovered easily and quickly. I never saw a lot of horses with navicular issues nor hock issues like I do now.

Nowdays, everyone shoes 24-7, 12 months a year every year. Horses live in their shoes with no break. Thus why when we pull their shoes - sometimes the initial recovery period can be as long as 6-8 months. Shoes are nailed to the walls and the horse stands on the walls instead of on the whole foot so pressure is put on pulling the dead wall from the live tissue causign separation - a lot of times the hoof needs to completely grow out from top to bottom to get rid of that.

Shoes are way over rated.

There are a lot of things that used to be done in the 'olden days' that, unfortunately, are no longer being done. Few people today know anymore that this is a valuable thing to do in horse care. Of course there are many reasons for this, not the least of which is the indoor show schedules requiring year round shoeing. And, there are few links to the wisdom of the 'old time' horse people, I guess because of the way farriery is taught. No doubt this 'barefoot backlash' is in part due to the way horses are kept today and the results people are getting from that (as you say, increasing lamenesses of all kinds, etc). Everyone knew and accepted that shoes were 'a necessary evil', and dealt with it by removing them in the wintery months and giving the horse time off. It wasn't a dirty little secret to say 'shoes, a necessary evil', it was just an accepted fact. Now, because people want to keep showing year 'round, they have to justify and defend the use of shoes and insist that they don't cause any harm. And people who might not be in rigorous showing programs take those riders as their examples and figure they must be doing things right by shoeing year round, and new and young farriers come up thru the ranks shoeing year round, having no knowledge whatsoever of the benefits of pulling shoes for part of the year. Where would they ever learn to trim horses barefoot properly?

Auventera Two

Jun. 5, 2006, 10:25 AM

Why would anyone organize an event on such footing to begin with?

Oh trust me, I really agree with you here! Apparently the footing has been better in years past, but this rock was added to address erosion issues. I emailed the race director this morning and very politely mentioned my concern with the rock footing situation. He told me that a few other riders had also voiced their concern and they would definitely look into a solution before next year's race. I don't believe they realized the rock would be that coarse.

Auventera Two

Jun. 5, 2006, 10:29 AM

There are a lot of things that used to be done in the 'olden days' that, unfortunately, are no longer being done. Few people today know anymore that this is a valuable thing to do in horse care. Of course there are many reasons for this, not the least of which is the indoor show schedules requiring year round shoeing. And, there are few links to the wisdom of the 'old time' horse people, I guess because of the way farriery is taught. No doubt this 'barefoot backlash' is in part due to the way horses are kept today and the results people are getting from that (as you say, increasing lamenesses of all kinds, etc). Everyone knew and accepted that shoes were 'a necessary evil', and dealt with it by removing them in the wintery months and giving the horse time off. It wasn't a dirty little secret to say 'shoes, a necessary evil', it was just an accepted fact. Now, because people want to keep showing year 'round, they have to justify and defend the use of shoes and insist that they don't cause any harm. And people who might not be in rigorous showing programs take those riders as their examples and figure they must be doing things right by shoeing year round, and new and young farriers come up thru the ranks shoeing year round, having no knowledge whatsoever of the benefits of pulling shoes for part of the year. Where would they ever learn to trim horses barefoot properly?

I think that's a great point.

And just wanted to add - I personally have a problem with using technology that's hundreds of years old when things have progressed SO much. Would you wear a hunk of steel nailed to your foot if you were going to run a marathon, or would you want high quality running sneakers? When we have so many high quality boots that absorb shock and give superior traction, why on earth would you want to nail steel to the bottom of the hoof? I just don't understand that. Steel is slippery and creates an additional 800 mhz of energy per hoof strike. That energy has to be absorbed somewhere, and it ends up being the horse's tissues and joints. But that's only my OPINION. :D Nothing else!

katarine

Jun. 5, 2006, 12:40 PM

tuf foot is a good product for toughening soles.

www.tuffoot.com

draft_farrier

Jun. 5, 2006, 01:11 PM

Would you wear a hunk of steel nailed to your foot if you were going to run a marathon, or would you want high quality running sneakers?

Whose nailing shoes on humans??? What is the validity of that comparison in the context of shod horses????

800 mhz of energy per hoof strike.

Exactly what CREDIBLE study has proven this?? .. iI'd sure like to read this. I've been asking for quite some time, but so far have only seen some obscure heretofore UNKNOWN person(not even a vet) who did some cadaver testing. How did he replicate the dynamics of fuildity and hydraulics within a live hoof??? ...or..did he just make SWAGS??? (Scientific Wild-Assed Guess).

Shoes are only as good as the person preparing the foot and applying them. If shoes were really the death traps that some folks want to make them out as.....then SURELY we should have driven the equine into extinction, or at least onto the endangered species list.

If your horse can manage barefoot, keep him barefoot....but don't make him suffer just in spite of being barefoot.

Wearing a boot IS NOT BAREFOOT...it's just a different type of shoe.

Why aren't all the horses I shoe lame????? What percentage of horses shod are lame as a result of shoeing???? or poor farriery??? Why do the horses I trim do so well???? Surely my trim, which I am assuming is NOT a "high performance" trim, is of lesser quality, but yet, horses are not lame OR sore??? What is the PROOF that a "barefoot" trim is better. What DEFINES that? Is there some scientific tool that they use to measure the horses response....OR...are they just seeing how the horse moves and reacts to determine the efficacy of the trim. If that is the case, then HOW can the "barefoot" trimmers say their method is so much "better" when there is no DEFINITIVE measuring methodology???? The truth is, much of the "barefoot" movement is disgruntled owners turning to a simpler, easier to attain method of caring for their horses needs. There have been barefoot horses doing well LONG BEFORE the "high performance" trim came out....it's just that we farriers didn't spout is a "new" to the uninformed masses. We told the owners to leave him barefoot, he doesn't need shoes.

When we have so many high quality boots that absorb shock and give superior traction

Ever try and get a set of boots on a FULL FEATHERD horse, like a Vanner or a Shire? Bet the Budwieser Clydesdales would look great in Old Macs, huh ???? Wanna bet how long a set of boots will stay on a 2500 lb Belgian in a pulling contest ???

As for traction.....borium works great, tough to get it to stick to boots though.....

It's not a black and white world...there are so many things we do with our horses, not one methodology works for all.

chism

Jun. 5, 2006, 02:15 PM

I have three major issues here:
1. I dont believe ALL horses can go barefoot comfortably.
2. I dont believe all people who call themselves "barefoot trimmers or hoof experts" are knowledgeable.
3. I take offense at anyone who says "traditional" farriers can't keep a barefoot horse healthy and sound with a "normal" trim.

And THAT is a whole 'nother thread. ;)

As the OP, I'm a little disappointed, not completely surprised, but disappointed nonetheless. I had hoped for this not to be yet another shod vs unshod debate, which is why I titled the thread the way I did, hoping to keep away the naysayers. I have shod horses, traditionally trimmed ones, and 2 with a barefoot trim. I'm not aware of anyone on this thread saying all farriers stink or all horses should be barefoot, people read into the posts what they want to believe. In response to your "top 3", I have mine.

1. I don't believe ALL horses need shoes, in fact...I think far too many are shod just because it's the conventional wisdom. Not everyone is willing to think outside the box or to take the accompanying risks.
2. I don't believe that ALL farriers OR barefoot trimmers are competent, there are good and bad in every profession.
3. I take offense at anyone who decides one size fits all, whether it's saying that "All competition horses should be shod" or "All horses can go barefoot".

Auventera Two

Jun. 5, 2006, 03:26 PM

Whose nailing shoes on humans??? What is the validity of that comparison in the context of shod horses????

Exactly what CREDIBLE study has proven this?? .. iI'd sure like to read this. I've been asking for quite some time, but so far have only seen some obscure heretofore UNKNOWN person(not even a vet) who did some cadaver testing. How did he replicate the dynamics of fuildity and hydraulics within a live hoof??? ...or..did he just make SWAGS??? (Scientific Wild-Assed Guess).

Shoes are only as good as the person preparing the foot and applying them. If shoes were really the death traps that some folks want to make them out as.....then SURELY we should have driven the equine into extinction, or at least onto the endangered species list.

If your horse can manage barefoot, keep him barefoot....but don't make him suffer just in spite of being barefoot.

Wearing a boot IS NOT BAREFOOT...it's just a different type of shoe.

Why aren't all the horses I shoe lame????? What percentage of horses shod are lame as a result of shoeing???? or poor farriery??? Why do the horses I trim do so well???? Surely my trim, which I am assuming is NOT a "high performance" trim, is of lesser quality, but yet, horses are not lame OR sore??? What is the PROOF that a "barefoot" trim is better. What DEFINES that? Is there some scientific tool that they use to measure the horses response....OR...are they just seeing how the horse moves and reacts to determine the efficacy of the trim. If that is the case, then HOW can the "barefoot" trimmers say their method is so much "better" when there is no DEFINITIVE measuring methodology???? The truth is, much of the "barefoot" movement is disgruntled owners turning to a simpler, easier to attain method of caring for their horses needs. There have been barefoot horses doing well LONG BEFORE the "high performance" trim came out....it's just that we farriers didn't spout is a "new" to the uninformed masses. We told the owners to leave him barefoot, he doesn't need shoes.

Ever try and get a set of boots on a FULL FEATHERD horse, like a Vanner or a Shire? Bet the Budwieser Clydesdales would look great in Old Macs, huh ???? Wanna bet how long a set of boots will stay on a 2500 lb Belgian in a pulling contest ???

As for traction.....borium works great, tough to get it to stick to boots though.....

It's not a black and white world...there are so many things we do with our horses, not one methodology works for all.

I'm really shocked at your bad attitude toward my OPINION. I have stated many times on this forum that shoes are not for MY HORSES, but if you want to shoe horses, then you do what you feel you need to do. I do not, however, personally agree with the concept of horse shoes nailed onto feet, and therefore will never use them on my horses.

As for your comment about how Old Mac's would "look" on a Clyde's feet - honestly I don't really give a rat's patoot what anything "looks" like! If it is healthier, safer, and better for the horse, then that's the only thing I care about.

And I do not deny that some styles of riding or working may require a horse have shoes on. I personally, however, would not compete in such disciplines if they required shoes. But that is my personal choice and my personal opinion. Same reason I will not show my horses because bits are required. I do not use bits anymore. It is my personal conviction, and since ditching bits, my horses have improved by light years. But if someone else wants to ride in a bit - go for it. If somebody else wants to use horseshoes - go for it. It is my personal preference not to, however.

I believe that certain farriers are capable of performing a trim that leaves the horse healthy and comfortable for barefoot living. However, it would seem that some of them are not capable of doing this. They want to rasp the foot down too short and remove the calloused sole, leave hoof walls flared and bearing all the weight, etc. and as a result the horse gets sore and the owner thinks it can't go barefoot. That used to be me. Everytime the farrier left, my mare was lame for a week or more. But since I've been doing it myself, she's very sound and very happy. She's developing concave hooves, the flares are growing down, and things are looking up for her.

Her feet were flat as pancakes because the farrier always trimmed her so short, and also from her years of neglect. She was always tender footed. The boots will help her through her transition to growing newer, more comfortable feet.

I cannot personally see a good reason to invade the white line with nails, weaken the hoof walls, and keep the sole elevated off the ground so it never develops a thick callous. So therefore I have opted to use boots when I know the riding terrain will be rough. The rest of the time she's on 24/7 turnout - barefoot. My personal choice. That's all.

Further, I'm a bit boggled by your insistence that horses must have shoes, and that shoes are good for horses, etc. Why does it bother you if people choose barefoot over shoeing? Because you'll only get 25 bucks per visit versus 125? ;)

I do agree that leaving a horse to suffer miserably barefoot is a cruel thing. But this is where I think hoof boots and soft, foam inserts can be life saving. I could have ridden my mare totally barefoot this weekend over 5 1/2 miles of rough terrain regardless of her comfort, but I didn't. I chose boots. Why do you see a problem with that? I could have called the farrier out and had him nail 4 shoes on. But, for what? At the end of the ride I took off the boots and there were her beautiful feet, void of nail holes, shoes, and weakened walls. Just as nature intended them. :D

I do think if people believe in barefoot, that they MUST spend the money and provide hoof boots for horses during the transition period, if the horse needs them. This is part of responsible horse ownership. And even years down the line, if you will be riding over killer terrain for long periods of time, at least have the boots with and put them on at the first sign of trauma or discomfort.

I think barefoot probably gets a bad name from the die hards who won't give the horse protective boots when he needs them.

donnie

Jun. 5, 2006, 06:34 PM

The following points are undisputable --Probably the biggest problem arising from nailing on a metal shoe is instantly changing the shape of the hoof wall and affecting the correct loading of the hoof. A horses hoof is not meant to be flat from heel to toe. It is meant to be arched. This arch allows the hoof to work like a trampoline. Not only has the hoof got to contract and expand side ways it also has to flex up and down. As soon as the shoe is applied the hoof becomes flat-- How does nature respond to this ?? It forces the hoof wall sideways and this is what we call flare. A properly maintained hoof does NOT flare. Secondly the entire bottom of the hoof, the walls, sole and frog all have to share weight bearing. A shod hoof is only loaded around the periphery of the wall. The most obvious sign of this failure of the hoof to load correctly are narrow, high, soft frogs--a sure sign hoof mechanism is impeded. All of the above is why I transitioned all my horses to barefoot

EqTrainer

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:05 PM

I try to stay out of this debate for the most part. However, I do feel the need to say that there are farriers who have the knowledge and interest in applying shoes in a way that is not harmful to the horse as everyone that is anti-shoe describes. I often think that the reason shoeing has gotten such a bad rap is that the majority of horses ARE poorly shod and so of course the majority of the cadavers that are available for dissection are of unhealthy shod feet. If that is all you ever see, of course you would decide that shoeing is the root of all evil. It makes perfect sense.

It's harder for me because I had a farrier who shod our horses so that their frogs touched the ground, that the foot was as weight bearing as nature designed (a well trimmed barefoot horse grows a wall that is curved enough with a convex sole to "emulate" a shoe), they had short heels and short toes and they were *sound*. Not only were they sound, but I watched him fix so many horses that I cannot believe that he was doing something inherently wrong by putting shoes on them. Of course it was the trim that was essential, but he also shod them so full, with so few tiny, skinny nails, that it was clear that force was not holding the shoes on, but balance. Breakover was key. A heel first landing, a foot that lands flat, key. Seeing them grow out balanced over a 5 - 6 week period, no flares, no major changes in the foot other than growth.

Watching someone like this shoe a horse is like watching a Picasso paint. Understanding that they see this foot and can imagine how the trim and the shoe together are going to change the horse is amazing. Watching horses change - conformationally, behaviourally, everything, for the better, very inspiring.

I am in the process of learning how to trim. I will never be a farrier; the reason is that I do not believe that I can learn to apply a shoe to a horses foot the way he does, and if it's not done that way, it *is* indeed a bad thing. So I will stick with barefoot because I think I can get good at that, and help more horses that way. For most people, it is going to be the safer/better of the two options. I think that a bad barefoot trim is not usually nearly as bad for the horse as a bad shoeing job is. I am just sorry I never had the foresight to take pictures of the work he did for us so I could post what a well shod foot looks like. They are out there.

Oh - Two Simple - farriers make more money on trims than on shoes. No material used, takes a skilled farrier about 5 minutes. Just FYI.

Silk

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:08 PM

And THAT is a whole 'nother thread. ;)

As the OP, I'm a little disappointed, not completely surprised, but disappointed nonetheless. I had hoped for this not to be yet another shod vs unshod debate, which is why I titled the thread the way I did, hoping to keep away the naysayers. I have shod horses, traditionally trimmed ones, and 2 with a barefoot trim. I'm not aware of anyone on this thread saying all farriers stink or all horses should be barefoot, people read into the posts what they want to believe. In response to your "top 3", I have mine.

1. I don't believe ALL horses need shoes, in fact...I think far too many are shod just because it's the conventional wisdom. Not everyone is willing to think outside the box or to take the accompanying risks.
2. I don't believe that ALL farriers OR barefoot trimmers are competent, there are good and bad in every profession.
3. I take offense at anyone who decides one size fits all, whether it's saying that "All competition horses should be shod" or "All horses can go barefoot".

So really, your top three and mine are the same;)

CookiePony

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:07 PM

As the OP, I'm a little disappointed, not completely surprised, but disappointed nonetheless. I had hoped for this not to be yet another shod vs unshod debate, which is why I titled the thread the way I did, hoping to keep away the naysayers. I have shod horses, traditionally trimmed ones, and 2 with a barefoot trim. I'm not aware of anyone on this thread saying all farriers stink or all horses should be barefoot, people read into the posts what they want to believe.

I can understand your frustration.

Edited to add: Nevertheless, there are some great people on this BB who have great ideas. I think that when you ask a barefoot question, you'll get some of them and then there will also be those who question whether the horse in question should be barefoot. Maybe it's possible to filter out the shod vs. unshod debate and focus on the useful insights.

chism

Jun. 6, 2006, 06:54 AM

Cookiepony - THank you so much for that link. So much to read through, so little time........

mbamissaz

Jun. 6, 2006, 08:29 AM

I took the shoes off from my TB and held out for 3 years and watched his feet do well and then do terribly and then do well and then do terribly. They were never "great" and I came to the conclusion that not all horses can transition to being barefoot, no matter how patient you are. I put shoes back on his front feet and he has been wonderful ever since.

summerhorse

Jun. 6, 2006, 09:03 AM

My TB is barefoot and unless there is a specific problem my horses will always be barefoot. BUT rain does soften the soles and makes it much easier for abcesses to form. These will form shoes or not. Make sure your horse has a high dry area to get in when it is rainy, it he won't stay in it long enough feed his hay in there and keep him up until he's done. Epsom soaks to bring out the abcesses and my farrier told me to paint iodine on the bottom of the hoof to help toughen up the sole. It did work.

draft_farrier

Jun. 6, 2006, 09:57 AM

I'm really shocked at your bad attitude toward my OPINION

It's not a bad attitude, it's just MY opinion....and like you, I AM FREE to state it. While it *may* seem "bad" to you, it was certainly not intended to be. I would STILL like you to answer my questions about the 800mhz hooey the YOU stated.

Further, I'm a bit boggled by your insistence that horses must have shoes, and that shoes are good for horses, etc

Huh????? For YOUR sake, I'll re-write what I wrote in my post...

I said If your horse can manage barefoot, keep him barefoot....but don't make him suffer just in spite of being barefoot.

How does THAT equate to me saying horses must have shoes???? Please answer that for me, as I am at a loss to understand.

As for your comment about how Old Mac's would "look" on a Clyde's feet - honestly I don't really give a rat's patoot what anything "looks" like! If it is healthier, safer, and better for the horse, then that's the only thing I care about.

the "gist" of that statement was, if you try and put boots on a feathered horse, you WILL either rip hide off when they step out of the boot, or you wil wear a sore in them from the inability of the boot to fit with all the feathering. Now, I don't know about you, but I think it's quite idiotic to sore a horse for the sake of nail holes.

cosmos mom

Jun. 6, 2006, 10:03 AM

Wasn't this thread about forming a support group for the OP, who is transitioning their horse to barefoot?

Thomas_1

Jun. 6, 2006, 11:47 AM

It may well be that the OP was merely looking for reassuring platitudes but I took it that she was looking for advice. Indeed she very specifically said that she didn't know what she was doing or what she was looking for in posting but that she wanted some advice.

She was eager to point out that her horse was in pain and certainly led me to believe that she was looking for suggestions as to how she could alleviate her horse's suffering.

You will find no matter which forum you join that there will be professional horse people who stick their heads above the parapet and post advice when they can see that an owner is struggling to do what is right for their horse. They freely give time to posting advice because they GENUINELY are concerned to educate and inform in the interest of horses.

In my opinion draft farrier has taken considerable time, trouble and effort to freely give professional advice that is sound. Others have also done that. And yet the OP has seen fit to entirely unreasonably attack, dismiss and belittle those efforts. Of course she is entitled to chose to take on board or dismiss the advice given but I'd suggest that if you have a problem with a horse and post to ask what to do that you should at least take heed and be gracious unless of course you are not anticipating wanting assistance again.

cosmos mom

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:06 PM

In my opinion draft farrier has taken considerable time, trouble and effort to freely give professional advice that is sound. Others have also done that. And yet the OP has seen fit to entirely unreasonably attack, dismiss and belittle those efforts. Of course she is entitled to chose to take on board or dismiss the advice given but I'd suggest that if you have a problem with a horse and post to ask what to do that you should at least take heed and be gracious unless of course you are not anticipating wanting assistance again.

Really? I didn't feel that the OP was attacking, dismissing and belittling and DF's posts. Maybe I couldn't tell BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T RESPOND with CAPITAL letters AND ???????? I suppose it just depends on your perspective- I have never claimed that I would never put shoes on a horse. I have sent people to my old farrier. I will use him again if my horse competes at a level where it is necessary. IMO, when the TITLE of the post is "I need a barefoot support group" The OP is asking for ideas and information from all of us crazy, know nothing, cult following, close minded, barefooters.

Silk

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:34 PM

I don't really know what I'm looking for by posting this....

Sounds like she is looking for advise to me......

It's hard to say I'm doing the right thing for him when he's obviously uncomfortable. I don't know how to make him better

sounds like here again she is asking for advise....almost could sound like she is asking permission to put shoes back on her horse.....

Unlike the "barefoot" people I have met, we "shoe people" really dont care if our horses are barefoot or not. What we care about is that they are sound and comfortable. If that means shoes, so be it. If it means barefoot, so be it.

cosmos mom

Jun. 6, 2006, 12:53 PM

Chism quote:"The main reason is that I'm not convinced that nailing steel to my horses feet won't have some type of effect to long term soundness.
I'm not against shoes for those that need them, just believe that far too many people do it, just because that's the way things have always been done. I've got a young horse with no apparent soundness issues, no training agenda or timetable, a clean slate....I want him to tell me if he needs shoes, not just assume that he needs them because he came to me with them."

Silk- this does not sound like she is looking for permission to put shoes back on, maybe just fix the problem without putting shoes back on? this may be possible (and it may not be possible in a reasonable time frame depending on the OP's specific horse and environment).

chism

Jun. 6, 2006, 01:52 PM

chism

Jun. 6, 2006, 01:53 PM

Really? I didn't feel that the OP was attacking, dismissing and belittling and DF's posts. Maybe I couldn't tell BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T RESPOND with CAPITAL letters AND ???????? I suppose it just depends on your perspective- I have never claimed that I would never put shoes on a horse. I have sent people to my old farrier. I will use him again if my horse competes at a level where it is necessary. IMO, when the TITLE of the post is "I need a barefoot support group" The OP is asking for ideas and information from all of us crazy, know nothing, cult following, close minded, barefooters.

Cosmos mom - COuldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for the support.

Silk - We are of a like mind when it comes to our approach to shades of gray, but no...I don't want to put shoes back on my horse if I don't have to. I really was looking for advice from people who have made the transition successfully, but thanks for your input.

Jun. 6, 2006, 02:43 PM

chism, through all of this, have you gotten information you find useful? :)

Silk

Jun. 6, 2006, 07:16 PM

Cosmos mom - COuldn't have said it better myself. Thanks for the support.

Silk - We are of a like mind when it comes to our approach to shades of gray, but no...I don't want to put shoes back on my horse if I don't have to. I really was looking for advice from people who have made the transition successfully, but thanks for your input.
And I think that is fine....not that you need my agreement:) I do hope you got some valuable info and opinions that you can trust through all the crap:)

That being said....I would use the old mac's during the ouchy times. The old macs kept mine comfy, but he just hated having them on his feet;) Like a cat, he'd try to shake them off.

Lookout

Jun. 7, 2006, 02:53 PM

I do feel the need to say that there are farriers who have the knowledge and interest in applying shoes in a way that is not harmful to the horse as everyone that is anti-shoe describes.

It's harder for me because I had a farrier who shod our horses so that their frogs touched the ground, that the foot was as weight bearing as nature designed (a well trimmed barefoot horse grows a wall that is curved enough with a convex sole to "emulate" a shoe), they had short heels and short toes and they were *sound*. Not only were they sound, but I watched him fix so many horses that I cannot believe that he was doing something inherently wrong by putting shoes on them. Of course it was the trim that was essential, but he also shod them so full,

I just saw and copied this from the In The Tackroom Farrier Chat:

"After I trim the foot, and before I make a shoe, I will open the heels with my rasp. Starting deep in the commissure, as I’m rasping, I tip the rasp toward the outside of the hoof creating a more normal looking foot and an opposing force hopefully keeping the heels from coming in further. Now I am able to fit a shoe that is wider at the heels with good base support and good cleanout."

I'm sure this has a lot to do with what you're talking about EqTrainer, but I don't know of any farriers that shoe this way, or are even aware of the fact that the heels need a counteracting outward force from the inward forct they get from the shoes, to keep them from contracting. I would like to hear one farrier say this technique was taught to them in farrier school. The above farrier in question has been in business for 30 yrs and learned it from his father - so there is a continuity to the knowledge that I'm afraid is being lost.

The guy you used to work with EqT, if he doesn't want to shoe anymore, he really should be teaching.

chism

Jun. 7, 2006, 09:27 PM

chism, through all of this, have you gotten information you find useful? :)

Why yes...thank you. The few days I was able to keep him dry made a significant improvement in his comfort level (and my stress level). I'm really pretty sure he just has some sole bruising due to the wet. Unfortunately we are flooding here in good old Massachusetts yet again, it's going to rain for several days so I hope he doesn't regress. My paddocks had just dried out from all the rain we got last week. :(
I'm going to purchase some Old Mac's for trail riding anyway, wanted to wait until his feet were at his true size before I ordered them, but I guess I can always sell them on ebay when he outgrows them.

Silk - Your analogy made me laugh...my husband likes to put tape on the cats' feet to enjoy just that reaction., I'm sure it's not so cute in a pony sized package.

Thomas - Get a chance to re-read the thread yet? No apology....?

Jun. 7, 2006, 10:23 PM

Why yes...thank you.

Good :)

I'm going to purchase some Old Mac's for trail riding anyway, wanted to wait until his feet were at his true size before I ordered them, but I guess I can always sell them on ebay when he outgrows them.

When his feet are his true size, you will likely find you don't need boots ;) But yes, measure his feet right after a trim, and get boots appropriately sized for that moment in time. As his feet get shorter in length and wider in width, you may find you are still able to use that size, depending on how closer things were initially, but then it's very likely you'll have to change sizes, either up or down, for his new foot shape. If his feet are really deformed, you may go through this a few times. But, these boots seem to sell very quickly, and there are other sites than Ebay for folks are are desperately looking for used boots.

Auventera Two

Jun. 8, 2006, 12:20 PM

I have the Old Mac's Generation Two (G2) boots and it seems to me that they run a bit small in size. I measured my mare's feet several times with an engineer's 6" ruler that measures to the milimeter, so I am absolutely certain my measurement was very precise, and correct. But it was kind of hovering between a size 4 and 5. I went with the 5, and was sure they were going to be too big. But.....the size 5s fit too snug. I ended up rasping her toe back 1/8 of an inch so the foot would sit down comfortably inside the boot and not rest up on the back part.

But given my extremely precise measurements, the size 5 should have been borderline too big. So.........I seem to think the boots run a bit small. (confused look here)

EqTrainer

Jun. 8, 2006, 02:40 PM

I just saw and copied this from the In The Tackroom Farrier Chat:

"After I trim the foot, and before I make a shoe, I will open the heels with my rasp. Starting deep in the commissure, as I’m rasping, I tip the rasp toward the outside of the hoof creating a more normal looking foot and an opposing force hopefully keeping the heels from coming in further. Now I am able to fit a shoe that is wider at the heels with good base support and good cleanout."

I'm sure this has a lot to do with what you're talking about EqTrainer, but I don't know of any farriers that shoe this way, or are even aware of the fact that the heels need a counteracting outward force from the inward forct they get from the shoes, to keep them from contracting. I would like to hear one farrier say this technique was taught to them in farrier school. The above farrier in question has been in business for 30 yrs and learned it from his father - so there is a continuity to the knowledge that I'm afraid is being lost.

The guy you used to work with EqT, if he doesn't want to shoe anymore, he really should be teaching.

I agree :yes: Unfortunately, he likes horses much more than people and I doubt he would ever do it. I wish he would. I wish the vet school would hire him so he could teach vets about feet/shoes. I wish they would make it mandatory for vets to ride with him. I wish other farriers would pay him to apprentice with him. I am afraid his knowledge will be lost when he quits shoeing.

He was and has been long "before his time" in our area; he stopped wedging horses 15 years ago.. our local hoof "expert" is a vet and works with another farrier; together they are downright dangerous. I saw a horse they were "fixing" the other day - aluminum wedges, pads, weight bearing surface about the size of a quarter, on stall rest, and the horse was in so much pain he was trying to hold himself up by the undermuscle of his neck. It's terrible.