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mbm
Jun. 2, 2006, 09:55 AM
http://horsesforlife.com/HorsesForLIFEOnlineMagazineJune2006

seems like the press is heating up again.....

doccer
Jun. 2, 2006, 10:20 AM
Gross :dead:

Calhoun
Jun. 2, 2006, 11:30 AM
No pointing fingers here, but those horses do not look happy in their job.

SGray
Jun. 2, 2006, 05:01 PM
wow - some amazing photos

http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/421/415/

nhwr
Jun. 2, 2006, 05:12 PM
so if hyperflexation is more than riding a horse very deep and BTV, (you know the extreme lateral flexion, horse's nose to rider's toes) where are those photos?

Caroline Weber
Jun. 2, 2006, 05:17 PM
Some things I find "interesting", so to speak:

(1) Yes, they "blacked out" the riders faces - but it was still pretty darn obvious who a lot of the riders were, as you can see sponsor logos on saddle pads, their horses, and the colors of their country on their shadbellies.

(2) In several of the pictures, many horses could be seen at one time in what I assume to be a warm-up ring. Personally, I find it a bit odd that EVERY horse was being hyperflexed. Yes, people do subject their horses to hyperflexion - but these pictures give the impression that every FEI competitor does so.


Other than those comments, I'm staying out of the "hyperflexion/rollkur/zwangsjacke" debate.

nhwr
Jun. 2, 2006, 05:24 PM
It is likely that not every horse was being over flexed but those are the only photos posted.

Also a lot of the photos are progressive enlargements of the same photo. Why do that?

mbm
Jun. 2, 2006, 06:10 PM
so if hyperflexation is more than riding a horse very deep and BTV, (you know the extreme lateral flexion, horse's nose to rider's toes) where are those photos?

there is a video on the site where the nose is pulled back and forth boot to boot.

i didnt look at all the pics so i dont know if there are images of nose to boot.

Tonja
Jun. 2, 2006, 06:12 PM
nhwr wrote:

Also a lot of the photos are progressive enlargements of the same photo. Why do that?

To show the detail of the horse’s expression.

JSwan
Jun. 2, 2006, 07:12 PM
I don't give a damn what its defenders say. None of those horses are calm, relaxed and forward or confident in their work. This is forced. It's a caricature. Hand riding at its worst. And I don't care that this is warmup. It's not peaking - it's not warming up. And it sure as hell isn't dressage.

If any of you ride this way as part of your training methods - I weep for your horses. There is absolutely no reason to contort your horses bodies in this manner - and I noticed the hands of those riders - and the tautness of the reins. This isn't submission - it's weightlifting.

I pity the people you try and bamboozle into thinking this type of work is appropriate - who then go home and try it on their own pitiable mounts. And - like the folks who think it's ok to sore their horses to get the type of movement the judges want - it's inhumane.

And if you disagree with what I've written - too damn bad.

DressageReine
Jun. 3, 2006, 12:37 AM
I've been avoiding the rollkur debate until now, but I can tell you a couple of those pictures were just horrifying. In the 10th and 11th from the bottom on the picture page, the "unidentifiable :winkgrin:" horse's head is almost approaching the HORIZONTAL! Even if I had never ridden before, those pictures would be disturbing.

DressageReine
Jun. 3, 2006, 12:40 AM
Noticed one other thing: in pretty much every photo, the horse is (trying to) open its mouth.

Make of it what you will :D

newrider
Jun. 3, 2006, 02:31 AM
Thank you J Swan, I couldn't agree more!

Daydream Believer
Jun. 3, 2006, 09:03 AM
Yuck. I can't imagine any real benefit from training that way. Those horses do look miserable.

Moll
Jun. 3, 2006, 09:38 AM
Yo-hoo, where are you, RK proponents???

The silence is deafening.

kkj
Jun. 3, 2006, 09:58 AM
I hadn't seen those pictures before. Don't need any words, any justification, any Gold Medals to back you up-- that is just deplorable. Makes me want to go out and join PETA and try to get this crap outlawed. Hauling on the reins like that, the tension on the curb, the tension throughout the whole horse, the look of despair and defeat in their eyes, the waterskiing position of the riders. Gross.

Reminds me of the saddlebred and other gaited horse show crap I saw as a kid. The extreme shoes, the polishing the feet with an electric sander, the breaking of the tails, the chains, the keeping the horse locked up all the time so it is extra explosive and extravagent at the show, the three year old that collapsed in the ring etc etc etc.

If it really is all about the show and doing this crap to win in the ring (apparantly this crap is leading to winning in the biggest ring because two the those riders are clearly the top of the heap from International competition), then something is very wrong with the show. Something is wrong with the gaits and tension that is being so highly rewarded.

Torn, I already bought my Vegas 2007 World Cup Tickets. However this time around I am going to be sitting in my chair hoping some of these riders get catapulted in the freestyle. Not badly hurt or anything but just thrown on their asses.

Maybe all the Rolkur afflicted horses will have a midnight meeting Animal Farm style at the Thomas and Mack Center and all vow to buck those skinny butted little abusers in the dirt. (Horses are really too tolerant a beast to be burdened with the silly whims of egotistical selfish prize hungry "dressage" riders.

I have to have enjoyed Salineros performances in the past but did see the tension there. These are some of the only photos I have seen of Edward Gal and Gribaldi. Really admired him and Lingh at the World Cup. Now hoping the horse catapults his butt too. I am going to be pulling for anyone who truly respects their horse and would not kick, pull, spur, lean back, haul away simultaneously and force the head to the chest just to get that extra bit of extravagence to win that stupid class.

Thomas_1
Jun. 3, 2006, 10:26 AM
I have taught classical riding and classical dressage for over 30 years and whilst many labour under the illusion that this technique is something to do with dressage, in my professional view rollkur is riding at its worst.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever!

This forced and incorrect way of riding will impair the horse's movement and athletic ability and can do much damage both physically and mentally. Practised over a period of time, it generally leads to unsoundness and back pain for the horse.

It places immeasurable strain on joints, muscles and ligaments. A rigid insistence on fixing/forcing a false outline from an early age, plays havoc with the horse's back and central nervous system.

Too often this sort of work results in quantities of confused, damaged and stressed horses, those that become hysterical and dangerous, being quickly sidelined. It's the few brave survivors, who by their stoicism do the greatest damage to their fellows, for it is they who unwittingly have to fly the flag for the latest fad and fashion. "You see my trainer's method really works!" boasts the winning owner, blithely ignoring the consequences on their horse and all the associated problems that go with it.

I'm sick to death of reading about rollkur and how its correct and I'm sick to death of reading why dressage horses can't go out in fields in herds and why they are unpredictable and bad mannered because they are a high level competition horse.

Its bad for horses, its bad for dressage and its time it was outed! And if a rollkur fan appears on here watch out!

canyonoak
Jun. 3, 2006, 10:45 AM
<< Yo-hoo, where are you, RK proponents???

The silence is deafening.>>


This is a website devoted to manipulation of images , deceit in reporting, and generally useless to promote any kind of rational discourse.

it is not meant to promote sport, but to promote a singular fantasy-obsession where all likeminded can gather and feel good about themselves.

Sure--everyone wants their horses(s) to look like partners. Like it is a dance and both partners are equally happy to be there.
And equally surely, I could take a photo of ANYONE in the world and make them look liike a complete chowderhead.
In fact, Oliveira did that himself, when explaining how he used to want to keep his horses up all the time (with photos) and then realized that it was bad for the horse, bad for the movement, etc etc.

But with digital cameras able to click off some astronomical number of frames per SECOND, the ability to present said number of frames as real MINUTES in real life...becomes easy to do and dangerous to believe.

These are repeated IMAGES, not moments in time.

But to present REINERS and Portuguese riders as the epitome of harmony and tact.
Wow, there's a leap of faith I will never make.

That said, I find the above website one big troll.

Moll
Jun. 3, 2006, 11:19 AM
<< Yo-hoo, where are you, RK proponents???

The silence is deafening.>>


This is a website devoted to manipulation of images


Funny enough, though: if the images were manipulated - after all, the same images have been online since 2005 - it would surely have been said so by the riders shown. But not one peep out of them. Just the same old thing, portrait rights and whatnot, but the only really effective way to shut down all criticism would have been to say, and prove, that the images are manipulated.

Why not take that road?

Thomas_1
Jun. 3, 2006, 11:38 AM
And not only that but you can go and watch videos of dressage riders competing and watch actual competition and see exactly the same thing there too!

nhwr
Jun. 3, 2006, 11:39 AM
Why not take that road?

It is interesting to me how these questions are always framed in the vein of "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"

Perhaps because what someone (who has a clear agenda) chooses to display on a website in highly manipulative and imbalanced way isn't even a blip on their radar screen. Or perhaps if they did protest, they be met with the rejoinder of "If there is nothing wrong with this, what is your problem us displaying it?" which we hear frequently. Or perhaps the riders who use this technique successfully are busy riding. Is there an upside in responding for them? I don't see it.

If the intent of this and many other websites is to inform, the subject would be presented is a straightforward and balanced manner. But the intent isn't to inform. It is to inflame. I have a hard time responding seriously to that.

If you like to have your opinions spoon fed to you, carry on.

mbm
Jun. 3, 2006, 11:43 AM
so, if this is all split seconds in time.... what about the videos that show it at length? what about the fact that in the background of these "moments in time" the other horses are all in similar positions?

mjs
Jun. 3, 2006, 11:55 AM
RK proponents try this for a "bit" of rational discourse..tuck your chin to your chest and run around the arena just one time then tell me how you feel!! Basic anatomy and physiology will show you that the position is just wrong for a horse. Yes it gets results but at what price does the horse pay in the long run??

physical.energy
Jun. 3, 2006, 12:03 PM
Rollkur, hyperflaxion, zwanesjacke, what ever you want to call it, .....There is no debate........IT IS UGLY.:eek:

nhwr
Jun. 3, 2006, 12:08 PM
mjs,

I just got out of the shower that I think I can say with relative certainty that my anatomy and physiology differ significantly from my horses'. I would probably find it excruiating to be saddled up and trot around an arena on all fours with weight on my back in any fashion. Your logic suggests that since most people are comfortable walking around on 2 legs, that would feel pretty good to a horse. I doubt it. Or that since horses like to walk around all day on 4 legs with their heads down, grazing we'd enjoy that too.

The FEI has done some preliminary studies that conclude that horses do not seem to be stressed or harmed by this way of riding. They (the FEI) acknowledge more data is needed. But even without further study I think it is safe to conclude that I am not a horse and a horse is not a human. To think that what one species feels the other will too is foolish.

bjrudq
Jun. 3, 2006, 12:15 PM
"This is a website devoted to manipulation of images , deceit in reporting,"

how are the images manipulated? if, indeed, they are photoshopped somehow to exaggerate the angles of the curb, or to put one horse's head on another's body, or to change the horse's eyes, or to put a different rider on a horse, then that would be deplorable.

if you have some indication that this is the case, please describe it, and i will be among the first to condemn that website.

sice you are arguing that the images are manipulated, are you agreeing that they are disturbing?

Moll
Jun. 3, 2006, 12:18 PM
Perhaps because what someone (who has a clear agenda) chooses to display on a website in highly manipulative and imbalanced way isn't even a blip on their radar screen. Or perhaps if they did protest, they be met with the rejoinder of "If there is nothing wrong with this, what is your problem us displaying it?" which we hear frequently. Or perhaps the riders who use this technique successfully are busy riding. Is there an upside in responding for them? I don't see it.


No, sorry, I was unclear. Why, when SJ has threatened to sue Theresa Sandin, among others, for publishing those pictures, did he not say they were manipulated if they were? It would be a much better argument for demanding their suppression than "cause I want to".

But of course there is an upside to respond to manipulated pictures. In fact it's everyone's duty to do so and it would be incomprehensible if the riders didn't. The only reason they haven't done so is - you know it - that the pictures are real. And yes, disturbing.

mjs
Jun. 3, 2006, 12:53 PM
To think that what one species feels the other will too is foolish.

:eek: And that is how we humans justify a lot of whats done to animals!!:mad:

Basic anatomy is basic anatomy....our air ways are built very much the same as equine:
Nose/Mouth for air intake
Larynx/Treachea for transport to the lungs
Its basic...nothing suggested...place a sharp bend in the air way and airflow to the lungs is decreased/restricted!!

P.R.E.
Jun. 3, 2006, 01:05 PM
I don't think anyone can deny that the images are disturbing, they are. In the other hand if I will be with a camera in the sidelines of any show here in the US, I can get a lot of disturbing images, starting from bad riding, riders that should not be riding and taking a picture in a bad moment (which always happens).

I think it will be important to be able to see a video of one of those warm-up arenas, so everyone, can give an opinion after seeing the bigger picture. Maybe that will help undertsand this parctice or maybe it will help confirm why you are against it, i don't know, but for sure will give everyone a more solid base of analysis.

WHo can publish a picture can publish a video. Who rides in a public competition can't demand their video not to be shared by the media.

Tonja
Jun. 3, 2006, 01:27 PM
For those who would like to see rollkur in action, Dr.Ulrike Thiel has made a set of DVDs available for non-commercial use. Here is the information on how they can be ordered: http://www.hippocampus-nl.com/s2e.php?content_id=353 (For those who would like to see rollkur in action, Dr.Ulrike Thiel has made a set of DVDs available for non-commercial use. Here is the information on how the DVDs can be ordered: http://www.hippocampus-nl.com/s2e.php?content_id=353)

nhwr
Jun. 3, 2006, 01:47 PM
And that is how we humans justify a lot of whats done to animals!!
That doesn't invalidate the idea. In the study conducted by the FEI, which was conducted by vets from both sides of the issue, the initial findings don't bear out your claim.

The equine airway is different from a human's. It wrapped by the muscles of the neck. It much longer than a human's making changes in bend less significant. Additionally with this technique, the points of the most dramatic flexion are at the poll and jaw which wouldn't impact breathing efficiency at all.

Having worked with someone who used this techique very well on one of my horses, I never observed my horse struggling to breath. What I did observe was a rapid and dramatic improvement in correct muscle development all over, a horse with improved attitude towards work (because she now had the muscle to support better the work). She loved working for this rider. She sure didn't act like a horse that was being tortured.

mbm
Jun. 3, 2006, 01:48 PM
there is also video on the horses for life web site of rollkur in action. there is a small clip that can be viewed by anyone and a longer, 5 minute clip that can be viewed for subscribers.

edited to add that actually, if you read the entire report from the Rollkur meeting you will read that many people were not saying that rollkur in not harmful - there are even vets that are reporting that their findings were not reported correclty. ie: the FEI made it seem like there was no real dissent when in fact there was plenty.

and there is also plenty of information out there for anyone to make an informed decision. many vet studies on various aspects of hyperflexion, altho none were explicity called that.

sabryant
Jun. 3, 2006, 02:23 PM
Jswan

Peaking a horse does not happen in one warm up! (though I have seen it happen in America with whipping a horse profusely before going down the center line, or galloping, hard, around the show grounds just before test time) It is about knowing your horse over a long period of time, the way you train (work days, hacking days) the way you feed them, and the tweaking of fitness, over a long period of time, to find that illusive place between relaxation and tension.

sm
Jun. 3, 2006, 02:39 PM
yup: dressage, the return of freedom for the horse. Harmony, for horse and rider.

Thankyou, OP. Thankyou, J Swan. Somehow the FEI has no definition for this exercise, since it calls RK anything at all behind the vertical. My dollars in dressage is for support of this ???


***
post 33: "Peaking a horse does not happen in one warm up! (though I have seen it happen in America with whipping a horse profusely before going down the center line, or galloping, hard, around the show grounds just before test time) "

And what happened when you reported this to show management -- of course you reported it right? Took some photos so the rider could be suspended? Was the rider asked to leave and not come back, because that's happened before. Funny -- there's nothing anywhere that says the description you give is PROPER WARM-UP. Unlike the FEIs ruling on RK. wake-up !!!!

sm
Jun. 3, 2006, 02:53 PM
"If the intent of this and many other websites is to inform, the subject would be presented is a straightforward and balanced manner. But the intent isn't to inform. It is to inflame. I have a hard time responding seriously to that."

I think it is straightforward material. Or is the intent to report and fully document what's happening, you really don't know the "intent" nhwr, you are guessing. It is good photo journalism, like war photographers -- the shooting styles are similar if not exact: No weird mood lighting, no weird camera lense or angles. Straight forward, like a photojournalist.

Ghazzu
Jun. 3, 2006, 03:04 PM
It much longer than a human's making changes in bend less significant.
Bah. Length has nothing to do with the significance of kinking a pipe. It still grossly narrows the functional diameter and increases turbulence.



Additionally with this technique, the points of the most dramatic flexion are at the poll and jaw which wouldn't impact breathing efficiency at all.
You need to sit down with a good anatomy text.
Better yet, talk to Dr. Cook :D

sm
Jun. 3, 2006, 03:15 PM
P.R.E., I thought so too: " Who can publish a picture can publish a video. Who rides in a public competition can't demand their video not to be shared by the media."

Until I read that Sjef has copyrighted Anky's face and he can sue anyone that publishes her face without his permission (still or moving images). In that way he protects her from appearing in RK photos. I'll have to see where I read that, it was just yesterday. I wonder if any other competing athlete representing their country has that stipulation, in any sport. Not really a question for this BB.

sabryant
Jun. 3, 2006, 03:24 PM
excuse my spelling, I, generally, murder the english language. Have you ever seen a horse sleeping sternum, their nose reaching back toward their hing legs? They stay like that for a good while sometimes. There is as much/more angle bend in their throat latch here, than with RK.

StarDoozer
Jun. 3, 2006, 03:29 PM
You know, I always stay out of the rollkur debates. But if I see the argument one more time that these photos are just, "a moment in time." I am going to kick someone. I have watched the warm-up rings in Holland and THIS IS WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.

I am so sad to see my beautiful buddy Montecristo (the gorgeous bay stallion with the thin blaze) not only ridden like this, but so obviously defeated by it. Maybe he would get above a 65% in the Grand Prix if they tried riding him like a horse and not like a machine... Just because it works for some horses doesn't mean it works for all of them. He can come live with me any day. Same with Gribaldi.

Poor boys. :-(

Tonja
Jun. 3, 2006, 03:38 PM
Stardoozer wrote:


if I see the argument one more time that these photos are just, "a moment in time." I am going to kick someone.

I don’t think you’ll have to. I think it’s safe to say that the ‘just a moment in time’ excuse has now been officially invalidated. :yes:

sm
Jun. 3, 2006, 03:41 PM
sabryant, just to point out the horse is standing in your example, not in a moving gait. I have heard some riders back in the old ages used to use RK with their horse at a stand only. Never moving, not even the walk, that was considered bad. And no, I've never seen a horse sleep this way, just heads dropped down normally, but that is just my experience...

Aptor Hours
Jun. 3, 2006, 04:11 PM
Is it yoga for horses? I have been trying to figure out what it is but nobody on this forum will tell me they just argue for or against. Maybe nobody really knows what it is.

Tonja
Jun. 3, 2006, 05:57 PM
Aptor Hours wrote:


Is it yoga for horses? I have been trying to figure out what it is but nobody on this forum will tell me they just argue for or against. Maybe nobody really knows what it is.

Definitions of rollkur (aka “hyperflexion” or now “zwangsjacke”) from the recent FEI Veterinary and Dressage Committees' Workshop were:

"Hyperflexion of the neck is a technique of working/training to provide a degree of longitudinal flexion of the mid-region of the neck that cannot be self-maintained by the horse for a prolonged time without welfare implications.”

"'Rollkur' has been defined as a training method involving forced flexion of the poll and neck with the horse’s head pulled behind the vertical.”

mzpeepers
Jun. 3, 2006, 08:19 PM
Is it yoga for horses? I have been trying to figure out what it is but nobody on this forum will tell me they just argue for or against. Maybe nobody really knows what it is.

Out of the mouths of babes:D
Edited to add....those pictures DO look awful. Whether it is a "moment in time" or not, remains to be seen.
I was for the longest time under the impression that there were may be five people in all using it. I am now facing the reality that it is something used or misused for longer period of time and by a whole lot of people.
Personally, I wouldn't mind too much if the method had a logical explanation and it was done properly according to guidelines well defined. As it stands, it seems to me that it is a "trendy" thing to do in certain circles and yes it looks ugly, especially considering the fact that nobody, even the ones who claim to be in the inner sanctum of dressage, seems to come up with a thorough description of why, how, when and for how long.

nhwr
Jun. 3, 2006, 08:36 PM
I think it is straightforward material. Or is the intent to report and fully document what's happening, you really don't know the "intent" nhwr, you are guessing. It is good photo journalism, like war photographers -- the shooting styles are similar if not exact: No weird mood lighting, no weird camera lense or angles. Straight forward, like a photojournalist.
Good journalism is an attempt by a neutral observer to document all aspect of a scene. If you think Theresa et all are neutral observers, you haven't been listening very carefully. They are pretty outspoken in their views. If all sides of the issue are being presented on that website, I must have missed it. This is more like photo-editorialism.

Ghazzu, I don't agree that this is kinking a pipe, it is more like bowing a pipe. Big difference. And wasn't Dr. Cook's work done in 1981? There are more recent studies than that aren't there? Of course, they might not come to the same conclusion ;)

Ghazzu
Jun. 3, 2006, 08:52 PM
Ghazzu, I don't agree that this is kinking a pipe, it is more like bowing a pipe.

It's a queation of degree. IMHO, the horse with its chin to its chest is kinked, not bowed.



And wasn't Dr. Cook's work done in 1981? There are more recent studies than that aren't there? Of course, they might not come to the same conclusion ;)

I don't thik the laws of physics have changed overmuch in the intervening time.

DressageGuy
Jun. 3, 2006, 08:56 PM
How many journalists do you know that are "neutral observers"? I can't think of one that's truly neutral. Every journalist adds their own spin to things.

kkj
Jun. 3, 2006, 09:14 PM
Jouralism doesn't seem slanted when you agree with the point of view of the journalist. There is bias in everything.

Anyway, there is no moment in time when I am hauling on my horse's mouth like that, kicking and pulling and waterskiing in the stirrups. Sure you could catch me leaning a little, my horse above or behind the vertical, my fat butt not sitting perfect in the extended trot, or some other unflattering moments, but you are never going see me deliberately hauling on my horse like that. Riders with the skills of those pictured-- well you know these were deliberate acts not just some unflattering moment in time. The videos show that it is maintained more than just for a moment.

I reiterate that if this is what the do in the warm-up ring, just imagine what kind of abuse goes on at home.

Remember several years ago when I was showing jumpers, the trendy thing to do was to counter bend the horse and counter canter. I think we all got the idea from watching some Europeans at the Atlanta Olympics. Anyway, almost every silly hunter/jumper rider in the warm up rings from the C shows to Indio would be counter bending and counter cantering. More than 1/2 of them doing it incorrectly but feeling accomplished and official all the while. This Rolkur crap is very similar in kind only a lot more potentially abusive and dangerous than some jumper rider cantering around off balance on the wrong lead.

sabryant
Jun. 3, 2006, 11:29 PM
sm, I was referring, mostly, to the post that refers to RK as closing the air passage in the throat. I've seen many horses rest like this for 1/2 hour or more! I think they breath just find and they look pretty comfy, cozy too!

P.R.E.
Jun. 4, 2006, 12:17 AM
P.R.E., I thought so too: " Who can publish a picture can publish a video. Who rides in a public competition can't demand their video not to be shared by the media."

Until I read that Sjef has copyrighted Anky's face and he can sue anyone that publishes her face without his permission (still or moving images). In that way he protects her from appearing in RK photos. I'll have to see where I read that, it was just yesterday. I wonder if any other competing athlete representing their country has that stipulation, in any sport. Not really a question for this BB.

I am in a weird position, because I am not against riding really deep. But I am against riding deep while forcing the horse in to that position. Then again I like to be fair and I am against people manipulating information in order to prove their point, as well as I a am against people trying to intimidate other people when someone critisize them. This last case is my real problem with "Sjef". I know for certain that a picture taken in a public appearence by a public figure can't be censured. That is a very good trick that "Sjef" and his lawyers had been using. Have you seen how many artists with more resources than "Sjef" or political figures, with more influence than "Sjef", can't prevent the media from publishing materials that exposes them in compromising circumstances. At least in the US, that is called free press and freedom of speech. If you publish pictures in a server located in the US, there is nothing that Sjef can do. He can try, but he is not going to get to far. Personally, I think that any picture of Anky should be published, as long as there is no intention to offend her. The way she rides can't be consider offensive to herself, so I see no reason for those pictures not to be published and a debate around them is part of the price you pay when you choose to be a public figure.
they ride in a certain way, don't be ashamed and handle the critics, some are going to be harsh, but if you don't like it choose another profesion.
I am going to start a a website for the "Dressage freedom of speech" were everyone can submit pictures to be published. If Sjef wants to come for me, I will be waiting, this is not the communist Soviet Union were the KGB can intimidate you.

As I said I don't agree with everyone that is against RK, but is your right to be against it and no one should try to intimidate you. As François Marie Arouet attributed to Voltaire:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Moll
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:23 AM
I am so sad to see my beautiful buddy Montecristo (the gorgeous bay stallion with the thin blaze) not only ridden like this, but so obviously defeated by it.

Oh yes, my god, those eyes. How people can say they don't see suffering in these poor animals is quite beyond me. :no:

Sabine
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:55 AM
I like your take PRE- not sure I would want to put my energy towards this subject as I find in training horses that are really able and loving and trusting and connected- you don't need RK ever- you might need deep for a while - but that is just to keep them focussed- but then I heard Sjef saying that in Europe in order to make them stop using RK= separate the warmups for dressage and jumping- well here we don't ever have that issue- I suppose there would be a lot more RK fans if we had warmups shared with Jumper competitions- which is the case over there...so a lot more detractions and lack of peace and focus.

Good luck PRE with your website....your thoughts and ethical stand is great- I support that 100%...not sure it's worth the effort...it seems to me like looking back- I think we are all over RK - we have acknowledged that it's not right and forcing any horse over a long period of time is not right...maybe some very well known, or well accomplished to it, but it's not for the mainstream..and it's not really what works for the regular dressage rider.
So forget it- and move on- get better in your training..start talking about feel and how to verbalize feel...

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 4, 2006, 06:34 AM
I don't usually get into these debates either because I haven't trained a horse to that level, but as I've said before and probably will again, when asked, this isn't dressage, this is 'horse showing'. And as long as the judges like the result it will continue. Our only hope is that riders with less extreme techniques start winning again and the fad dies from lack of interest. JMHO

JSwan
Jun. 4, 2006, 06:35 AM
I think we all realize those that photos are merely a moment in time - and not always the most opportune moment in time either. And since this is the first time I've ever seen that site - I don't think I've been spoon fed my opinion. I've formed my opinons over a lifetime of experiences. Sometimes I change my opinions based on new information, or experience, etc.

But not about Rollkur.

Why is it that if someone disagrees about Rollkur, proponents accuse us of being rather simple minded? Now dearie - you know pictures can be faked. Now dearied, you know that important people do it so it must be ok.

What I also find problematic is the FEI trying to placate opposing sides about how only expert riders should use this method. But when it is "time" for riders to abandon classical techinque and switch to Rollkur, or how many horses get ruined along the way - on that the FEI is silent.

The nice thing about classical methods - is that wow - it works for everyone. From a 7 year old Pony Club kid to an Olympic competitor.

It's something I like to call "the right way".

claire
Jun. 4, 2006, 07:44 AM
I am in a weird position, because I am not against riding really deep. But I am against riding deep while forcing the horse in to that position. Then again I like to be fair and I am against people manipulating information in order to prove their point, as well as I a am against people trying to intimidate other people when someone critisize them. This last case is my real problem with "Sjef". I know for certain that a picture taken in a public appearence by a public figure can't be censured. That is a very good trick that "Sjef" and his lawyers had been using. Have you seen how many artists with more resources than "Sjef" or political figures, with more influence than "Sjef", can't prevent the media from publishing materials that exposes them in compromising circumstances. At least in the US, that is called free press and freedom of speech. If you publish pictures in a server located in the US, there is nothing that Sjef can do. He can try, but he is not going to get to far. Personally, I think that any picture of Anky should be published, as long as there is no intention to offend her. The way she rides can't be consider offensive to herself, so I see no reason for those pictures not to be published and a debate around them is part of the price you pay when you choose to be a public figure.
they ride in a certain way, don't be ashamed and handle the critics, some are going to be harsh, but if you don't like it choose another profesion.
I am going to start a a website for the "Dressage freedom of speech" were everyone can submit pictures to be published. If Sjef wants to come for me, I will be waiting, this is not the communist Soviet Union were the KGB can intimidate you.

As I said I don't agree with everyone that is against RK, but is your right to be against it and no one should try to intimidate you. As François Marie Arouet attributed to Voltaire:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

P.R.E. Nicely put! I think that what Sjef actually accomplishes (by intimidating/sueing/"secrecy") is make it all seem that there IS something wrong/abusive with his method of training and his critics are correct...

And YES, he does have alot to lose (business-wise) by not being open.
As P.R.E. noted that is the down side to making your living as a public figure...

And FWIW, I think the Voltaire quote is quite apt: I really don't see most posters being "Judgemental" on this BB. Most are either trying to understand (me :winkgrin: ) defend or oppose a training technique that has been captured in photos and video and has been seen used.

Also, I think things get really twisted up when people take the discussions about RK (EXTREME DEEP!) to be a personal criticism of using deep/btv techniques...

JMVHO!

Hey Sabine, Sorry if this is too "schoolmaster" sounding for you...but then I guess being a schoolmaster isn't so bad after-all! :lol:

kkj
Jun. 4, 2006, 08:53 AM
PRE I agree with you. I am not so much against riding deep either just the aggression and force involved in Rolkur. And whether or not it does some kind of permanent damage, I am against it simply for the moment when it is taking place and someone is forcing the head to touch the chest, mouth open, eyes defeated, muscles tight, and just ugly and cruel. I am not against pushing the horse (tactfully for more) or going for it or trying to win or whatever. I am just against resorting to blantant abuse to get there. I think you can push a horse to achieve more, to move more brillantly with more expression etc without beating him up.


I have been in the breed show world and seen many abuses in QHs, Arabs, Saddlebreds, Morgans etc. I have worked and shown for 20 plus years in the hunter/jumper world and seen blantant abuse there. I have done eventing and seen things I wanted to cry about. I didn't come into the dressage world with rosy glasses on thinking everyone here treats their horse with the love and respect they treat themselves with. Now I know sometimes you need a firm hand or a wack on the butt, but this Rolkur is more than that. It is as bad of abuse as I saw in other disciplines and it needs to stop.

Dressage struggles to assert itself as a sport to the outside world. Jumping and Eventing does a little better at this but many liken dressage to ice skating or water ballet. There is a lot of poofy crap and a lot of politics. The judging and the placings often come under a lot of scrutiny. The few brightest stars sometimes seem to get a little padded score maybe based a bit on their past laurels more than just the competition at hand.

When I see stuff like Rolkur, I think competitive dressage is more like a breed show Saddlebred embarrasment than a real sport. I of course will never be a true contender in any sense in the dressage world. I have a very talented young hore with FEI potential, but if we make it to FEI we will be very insignificant little time compared to any of big name competitors. I truly admire those few people in the world who can ride like Anky solely for the riding ability. The way some of them abuse that gift makes me want to B**ch slap her/them. It makes me angry for the future of dressage. For the influence it will have on a fabulously talented young boy or girl who esteems to be the next Anky and has a legitimate shot at it. I would like this person to be able to get there with just talent and hard work and not have resort to lying, cheating, beating horses... The Balkenhols and others who truly respect horses need to be the norm and the esteemed and not the some old outdated exception. Otherwise if left going in the current direction, the sport of dressage will either corrupt the innocent young future stars or they will likely hold onto their integrity and be drawn away from this "sport". Turning a blind eye to abuses like Rolkur will have a huge negative impact on the future of dressage.

Then we have all the seedy stuff going on behind the scenes like in all other horse sports. The big names abusing the horses, the biggest trainers ripping people off. What was that law suit where Sjef was sued for selling an American horse in Europe for a lot more than he disclosed to the owners and pocketing the rest of it? Has he ever had to pay on that? If he is convicted of something like that in court I think it should be on the cover of all the dressage publications and he should be banned from training or showing for 5 years or something. Some sort of punishment needs to be made so people like him don't get away with such abuses and just laugh at the "prudish" Americans and other fools for keeping him in the game. When people get caught doing crap like that the punishment needs to be significant and the embarrassment huge so the that there is a little deterrent for the others who would be so inclined. Right now someone pulls crap like that and people just sigh and say, "Oh yeah here goes another one, why would we every expect more of a huge renowned successful horse professional." People need not sigh and say oh well here we go again when they see Rolkur, they need to scream, "Hey Anky you borish insensitive egocentrical horse abuser let go of the curb rein, stop water skiing on his mouth and show him some respect or we're going to pull your skinny ass out of the saddle and ban you from the show ring." The FEI or whatever powers that be need to get some real balls and stop this crap yesterday.

As for the rest of us, we should not support the riders who practice Rolkur or otherwise lie, cheat and abuse. I will not buy Anky merchandise. I threw away the Anky coolmax shirts that were so nice in fit and appearance. If Sjef or Anky want to sue me for sullying their name, go for it. If you come over to the US for that garbage maybe we can coordinate it Sjef so you can answer for the lawsuit against you for lying about a purchase price and pocketing big money while were at it.

HXF
Jun. 4, 2006, 10:14 AM
I guess this is where I get so frustrated with the focus on just Rollkur only. It's been seen in the jumpers forever, yet where was the outcry??? The outrgages in the other disciplines...where is the outcry there??? And don't you tell me that the ODG's and the alive ones don't have skeletons in their closets. I've heard stories of "closed sessions" and the "special spurs" that somehow seem to get justified just as you see rollkur being justified. And turnout practices, don't even get me started on that one. I respect what these sites are really trying to do - they are truly having the horses best interest in mind. But I guess I would have even more respect for these sites if it didn't seem like they were targeting just one person...:no:

nhwr
Jun. 4, 2006, 10:34 AM
Sure ,every journalist has their own opinion. To the extent they are professional, they are obligated to keep their bias in check and present both sides of an issue. If this doesn't happen, it is called commentary, not journalism. I don't think anyone says the photos have been "faked", though many have said they have been manipulated (and they clearly have been). There is difference. Blurring the background, adding arrows and lines, repeating and enlarging photos.... If the arguement has merit on its own, these manipulations shouldn't be necessary to make the point, IMO. Add this to the fact that there is no attempt to present the other side, even as window dressing, and this propoganda doesn't get much consideration from me.

But just because I am a contrary thinker sometimes, I have considered other possibilities. The Germans and by extention (because of who their coach is) the Americans, keep getting their @$$es handed to them by the Dutch in the competition arena. This has been going on for a few years and it probably rankles. Now a large group of influential German riders, most of whom no longer compete and definitely have a lot to gain by seeing the Dutch put down, come out and say "This is wrong" "It is abusive" "It is not classical" "It is a conspiracy and the FEI is in on it" Or there could be other explanations. Like maybe they need an excuse for why their teams loose to the Dutch so much. Or maybe it helps them differentiate their "product" and keeps their names out there even if they aren't winning. Or maybe the politics of the dressage culture they where they live in makes it easier for them to conform.

I am not saying an of the above things are true. I am saying there are many possible explanations for why people would have a problem with Sjef and Anky. Combine this with my experiences, the "Have you quit beating your wife yet" method of questioning, the yellow journalism tactics employed by the websites and the tendancy on these threads for "group think", I am just not that sympathetic.

I respect Anky and many other riders for how hard they work. I don't think rolkur is the best way for every rider to ride every horse. I certainly don't use it when I ride. This most recent dust up started because von Ziegner submitted his letter to DT. But even he says (elsewhere) that this can be useful and it is not a violation of classical principles, if certain conditions are met. While others prefer to forget that he made that statement, I prefer to agree with it. And I support efforts to get more information.

kkj
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:03 AM
HXF totally agree with you.

I think the targetting of the top people in the sport is OK though. It is not like they don't know what they are doing or don't have total control over their bodies or the aids they are giving. Sure 1000s of horses in all disciplines are abused and it is a great travesty. However, when it is done by the leaders in the sport, it is all the much more evil. They are the idols of the dressage world, the pinnacles of success and if they are blantantly abusing horses, then come on out and hang them.

As for the other disciplines, they should be hung for their abuses too. When McClain Ward got caught putting spikes in a jumper's boots and horses he trained tested positive for cocaine, he got a measly little slap on the wrist. Now he is back up there admired and esteemed. The few times Grand Prixs are on TV the commentator talks him up like some little demi-god of jumping. Demi-devil in my book, the whole lot of them that pull this crap. Outta be banned for life for that crap and again put on the cover of magazines and exposed (not just the little paragraph in the middle of the magazine saying so and so big name a-hole got caught doing this and that and will just get 6 months suspension and a little fine). There is very little if any of a deterrent against abuse in the horse world.

Other sports are not so forgiving of abuse. These sports don't involve the participation of an innocent animal either. In the horse world, we often turn a blind eye, just expect and accept abuse. The powers who allow this to continue share a bit in the culpability. The riders, owners, retailers, trainers, etc, etc who associate and support horse people who are abusive to the horses are guilty too.

Agree it is hard to define abuse. There is the slippery slope issue, the policing issue, etc, etc. However, to the sane minded average person out there, I think more than most would find Rolkur abusive. If Anky and Sjef and whoever else honestly think it is OK or otherwise choose to assert such, then by all means I think it is fine to attack and expose them as insensitive, narcissitic, victory driven abusers who do not belong in the saddle much less on the podium.

Ghazzu
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:05 AM
I guess this is where I get so frustrated with the focus on just Rollkur only. It's been seen in the jumpers forever, yet where was the outcry??? The outrgages in the other disciplines...where is the outcry there??? And don't you tell me that the ODG's and the alive ones don't have skeletons in their closets. I've heard stories of "closed sessions" and the "special spurs" that somehow seem to get justified just as you see rollkur being justified. And turnout practices, don't even get me started on that one. I respect what these sites are really trying to do - they are truly having the horses best interest in mind. But I guess I would have even more respect for these sites if it didn't seem like they were targeting just one person...:no:

I see outrage at abuses in other disciplines--you just have to look. There are lots of grassroots Arab folk who are active against the crap that happens in that arena. There are TWH folks who have had death threats for their activism. Lots of people yell about the abusive WP practices used to achieve the "peanut roller" look.

But that's irrelevant. Saying RK is ok because "other people do bad things" is on the level of "But, Mo--ommmm! Why *can't* I? *Everybody else* does it." It just *begs* for the "if eveybody jumped off a cliff, would you do it, too?" response.

P.R.E.
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:09 AM
I guess this is where I get so frustrated with the focus on just Rollkur only. It's been seen in the jumpers forever, yet where was the outcry??? The outrgages in the other disciplines...where is the outcry there??? And don't you tell me that the ODG's and the alive ones don't have skeletons in their closets. I've heard stories of "closed sessions" and the "special spurs" that somehow seem to get justified just as you see rollkur being justified. And turnout practices, don't even get me started on that one. I respect what these sites are really trying to do - they are truly having the horses best interest in mind. But I guess I would have even more respect for these sites if it didn't seem like they were targeting just one person...:no:

You are right, it has been among the jumpers forever, in my oipinion, the reason it has never been such a huge issue is because how it has been performed. In general in the jumpers you see the riders doing it for a short period of time with a snaffle and low pressure, they don't use the stirrups and the weymouth to obtain the position. It's also not such a common practice as some people think, because is used only as a streching exercise, but is not the pilar of the training of a jumper. I see the problem in dressage, when by force the horse is taken to that position and it becomes the pilar of their training.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 12:20 PM
HFX wrote:

I guess this is where I get so frustrated with the focus on just Rollkur only. It's been seen in the jumpers forever, yet where was the outcry??? The outrgages in the other disciplines...where is the outcry there??? And don't you tell me that the ODG's and the alive ones don't have skeletons in their closets. I've heard stories of "closed sessions" and the "special spurs" that somehow seem to get justified just as you see rollkur being justified. And turnout practices, don't even get me started on that one. I respect what these sites are really trying to do - they are truly having the horses best interest in mind. But I guess I would have even more respect for these sites if it didn't seem like they were targeting just one person...


It’s not individual riders that are being targeted, it is zwangsjacke that is being targeted.

Abuse is not the only issue people have with zwangsjacke. The issue in regard to the use of zwangsjacke in dressage is that this method produces results that are in direct conflict with the time-honored principles of the Equestrian Art and that those who practice this method are being highly rewarded in the competition arena in spite of the subsequent deficiencies in their performances.

The reason we don’t see the same level of outcry by dressage enthusiasts against the use of rollkur in the jumping community is because jumping was not instituted in order to preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come – dressage was.

nhwr
Jun. 4, 2006, 12:28 PM
The reason we don’t see the same level of outcry by dressage enthusiasts against the use of rollkur in the jumping community is because jumping was not instituted in order to preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come – dressage was.
Huh? :confused:

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 12:37 PM
nhwr wrote

Huh? :confused:

Chapter II Dressage Events
Article 419 OBJECT OF INTERNATIONAL DRESSAGE EVENTS
The FEI instituted an International Dressage Event in 1929 in order to preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come.

nhwr
Jun. 4, 2006, 12:54 PM
Isn't this from the charter of the same organization that is somehow in league with the dressage "anti-christs"?
Either the FEI has credibility or it doesn't.

mbm
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:11 PM
nhwr, i think the point tonja was making is that the FEI was created for a specific purpose (which was noted above).

currently the FEI it going against the reason for its being.

folks are upset that the very organization that was created to "preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles" is doing exactly what is should NOT be doing. it is watering down the rules to fit the current method of riding. and further, it is supporting these de jour methods.

Albion
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:12 PM
It's been seen in the jumpers forever, yet where was the outcry??? The outrages in the other disciplines...where is the outcry there???

Maybe because the jumper people aren't out there telling the rest of us that their way is the One True Way? And there are bigger fish to fry as far as "dirty little secrets" in the jumper ring - poling, chips in boots, etc. etc. etc. It does seem to me (an outside observer, to be sure) a little ironic that the discipline that likes to hold itself up as the pure art or what have you is now besieged by arguments over a practice that - no matter what you want to say about its long term effects, validity, usefulness - looks most unnatural & at moments, certainly looks to be the total antithesis of everything that "dressage riders" claim they're striving for (eyes rolling, lots of tension, horses & riders looking about as inharmonious as could be ...).

It also doesn't seem to me that the "deep" riding in jumper warmups bears much resemblance to what you see in dressage warmups. Then again, the only time I was accustomed to seeing people water-skiing on horseback was when I was galloping race horses & people were on VERY TOUGH horses to hold.

nhwr
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:21 PM
Actually mbm, the FEI has jurisdiction over all international events including eventing, driving, jumping and dressage. The quote that Tonja cited was about the purpose behind the creation of dressage competitions.

And as far as I can see, the FEI is fufilling its role and duty in this regard. There is a disagreement on this issue and they are trying to get to the bottom of it. Some are distressed that their initial findings don't support what they believe, but them's the breaks.

HXF
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:28 PM
HFX wrote:



It’s not individual riders that are being targeted, it is zwangsjacke that is being targeted.

Abuse is not the only issue people have with zwangsjacke. The issue in regard to the use of zwangsjacke in dressage is that this method produces results that are in direct conflict with the time-honored principles of the Equestrian Art and that those who practice this method are being highly rewarded in the competition arena in spite of the subsequent deficiencies in their performances.

The reason we don’t see the same level of outcry by dressage enthusiasts against the use of rollkur in the jumping community is because jumping was not instituted in order to preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come – dressage was.


But I thought this outcry was about the horse's welfare, not the art form??? :confused:

mbm
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:39 PM
And as far as I can see, the FEI is fufilling its role and duty in this regard. There is a disagreement on this issue and they are trying to get to the bottom of it. Some are distressed that their initial findings don't support what they believe, but them's the breaks.

have you read the entire report form that meeting? i think the press release put out by the FEI didnt quite capture the contents or feelings of that meeting.

"created in 1921, the FEI is the governing body of the equestrian sport worldwide. It sets the rules by which the sport is governed and the codes of conduct for participants and officials in all equestrian disiplines. <snip> The FEI Rules For Dressage Events are, in principle, based on the ideas of de la Guerinierre"

page 7 "Dressage a Guideline for Riders and Judges" by Wolfgang Niggli

i think that is is the going away form the original intent of the above that is causing so much grief.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:40 PM
mbm wrote:

folks are upset that the very organization that was created to "preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles" is doing exactly what is should NOT be doing. it is watering down the rules to fit the current method of riding. and further, it is supporting these de jour methods.

Thanks mbm. That is essentially what I meant.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:43 PM
HXF wrote:


But I thought this outcry was about the horse's welfare, not the art form???

The outcry is about not adhering to the principles of the Equestrian Art and that covers both issues.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:50 PM
The constitution of the US has been amended many times from the principles of our forefathers in order to meet the standards of our changing country. So it is that the laws of the FEI should, over time, be amended to fit the modern horse and the inovative ideas of a new generation of riders. Classical artists didn't have as much to work with as do artist of today with all the new inventions. Same with musicians who have better technology. Personally, I would much rather watch a test ridden by Anky/Isabel/Carl and etc, than to watch the SRS's lackluster performances which, to me, are boring to say the least!

nhwr
Jun. 4, 2006, 01:59 PM
It is the nature of working within a committee that when a decision is reached it will not reflect the opinions of individuals. It is a consensus. If we can't accept this and don't agree with the concept of compromise and consensus building, we shouldn't be expecting a committee to resolve the issues.

Maybe we need a dressage dictatorship ;)

JSwan
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:08 PM
The constitution of the US has been changed many times from the principles of our forefathers in order to meet the standards of our changing country. So it is that the laws of the FEI should, over time, be changed to fit the modern horse and the inovative ideas of a new generation of riders. Classical artists didn't have as much to work with as do artist of today with all the new inventions. Same with musicians who have better technology. Personally, I would much rather watch a test ridden by Anky/Isabel/Carl and etc, than to watch the SRS's lackluster performances which, to me, are boring to say the least!

I'm sorry - I just have to say this. That is the dumbest thing I have ever read on this BB. Please tell me you're joking.

Not only do you know nothing about the US Constitution -which in and of itself is unforgivable for any American citizen, you also know nothing about music or dressage. Musicians do not require technology to create beauty that will last throughout the ages. I won't even get started on your lack of basic knowledge of our government.

If you want to be entertained, go turn on the TV.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:09 PM
sabryant wrote:

The constitution of the US has been changed many times from the principles of our forefathers in order to meet the standards of our changing country. So it is that the laws of the FEI should, over time, be changed to fit the modern horse and the inovative ideas of a new generation of riders. Classical artists didn't have as much to work with as do artist of today with all the new inventions. Same with musicians who have better technology. Personally, I would much rather watch a test ridden by Anky/Isabel/Carl and etc, than to watch the SRS's lackluster performances which, to me, are boring to say the least!

The principles of the Equestrian Art were not arrived at as a matter of whim or personal taste. They were derived from the laws of balance and behavior science, with clear objectives in mind. Balance is a matter of physics and can not be influenced by personal preference. The development of the sport at the expense of the classical principles can not, in all honesty, be considered ‘development’ of the sport of dressage. It is the development of a different style of riding.

Ghazzu
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:20 PM
The constitution of the US has been changed many times from the principles of our forefathers in order to meet the standards of our changing country. So it is that the laws of the FEI should, over time, be changed to fit the modern horse and the inovative ideas of a new generation of riders. Classical artists didn't have as much to work with as do artist of today with all the new inventions. Same with musicians who have better technology. Personally, I would much rather watch a test ridden by Anky/Isabel/Carl and etc, than to watch the SRS's lackluster performances which, to me, are boring to say the least!


You know I can't even get angry with the above.
It's just plain sad.
Sad that you obviously have no familiarity with US history and the Constitution.
Sad that you apparently can't appreciate acoustic music.
And definitely sad that you can't find the SRS performance entrancing.

I pity you.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:22 PM
I should have said amended which I changed in my post. I am dumber that a box of rocks, I will admit to that...but being dumb doesn't give me any less of an opinion on this subject than you. Your tacticts don't scare me off, no matter how many bad things you want to say about me. Help yourself and continue on in the only way you know how!

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:32 PM
The point I was trying to make about artists and muscians is that it has changed and branched out in a thousand inovative ways from the classical periods of both. !

sm
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:35 PM
well said on the website P.R.E. I am not familiar with the law, only on photo release rights crediting photographer correctly, and also the subject of the image always gets the courtesy from me to approve released image and I've been doing this for a while. Of course, the part where I always extend the courtesy to the subject is not the same as me knowing the subject's legal rights. You wrote okay on a server in the U.S., because he did not apply for U.S. copyright (perhaps?) ?

In next para is the doctor from holland who was threathened with a lawsuit, from Mike Matson's OP, thread title "Walter Zettl Speaks on Zwangsjacke." So are you writing that if a server in the U.S. prints these doctor's images (with photographer's release/permission) there is no lawsuit? Here's an excerpt of the OP:

P.S. A short time ago, Dr. Ulrike Thiel got in contact with me. She has a small institute in Holland which researches the training of dressage horses and its effects. She heard of me through my German edition of “Dressage in Harmony”. By reading my book she recognized my philosophy about classical training. I have to admit that this lady left a big impression on me, as she does in Holland (the lion’s den of the Zwangsjackenreiterei) fighting this type of riding. In the meantime, she sent me three DVD’s which show training in the warm-up ring with hyperflexion of the neck. When she asked Anke and Sjef to publish them, they threatened her with a lawsuit. If their training is humane, why would they prohibit her showing those DVD’s? If your are interested in learning more about her and her work, here is her website: www.hippocampus-nl.com."

_________________

"Quote Originally Posted by P.R.E.
I am in a weird position, because I am not against riding really deep. But I am against riding deep while forcing the horse in to that position. Then again I like to be fair and I am against people manipulating information in order to prove their point, as well as I a am against people trying to intimidate other people when someone critisize them. This last case is my real problem with "Sjef". I know for certain that a picture taken in a public appearence by a public figure can't be censured. That is a very good trick that "Sjef" and his lawyers had been using. Have you seen how many artists with more resources than "Sjef" or political figures, with more influence than "Sjef", can't prevent the media from publishing materials that exposes them in compromising circumstances. At least in the US, that is called free press and freedom of speech. If you publish pictures in a server located in the US, there is nothing that Sjef can do. He can try, but he is not going to get to far. Personally, I think that any picture of Anky should be published, as long as there is no intention to offend her. The way she rides can't be consider offensive to herself, so I see no reason for those pictures not to be published and a debate around them is part of the price you pay when you choose to be a public figure.
they ride in a certain way, don't be ashamed and handle the critics, some are going to be harsh, but if you don't like it choose another profesion.
I am going to start a a website for the "Dressage freedom of speech" were everyone can submit pictures to be published. If Sjef wants to come for me, I will be waiting, this is not the communist Soviet Union were the KGB can intimidate you.

As I said I don't agree with everyone that is against RK, but is your right to be against it and no one should try to intimidate you. As François Marie Arouet attributed to Voltaire:

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. "

TBCheval
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:36 PM
Personally, I would much rather watch a test ridden by Anky/Isabel/Carl and etc, than to watch the SRS's lackluster performances which, to me, are boring to say the least!PMFJI but "exciting" for the spectator does not necessarily equal "good" for the participant in any sport. Just ask the race car driver climbing out of his car after a spectacular crash. I would much rather see a horse that is round rather than upside down, tail relaxed and swinging rather than flipping this way and that, inside ear "listening" to the rider rather than both ears pinned back, and a quiet mouth rather than one gaping open, teeth bared and white foam spraying all down the horse's chest. :eek:

I realize that hyperflexion is used as a training or warm-up aid and not done in competition but my goal (and what I like to see in other horse-rider teams) is always harmony between horse and rider. Anything I might do to help a horse be more supple and understand my communication better will be momentary, and released the instant my horse relaxes and goes "with me". I would think it grossly unfair of me to ride my horse any other way. It's a deal I made with my mare, that I will put my best effort into making the things I ask of her as easy as possible. My feel and timing with the release is how I let her know she is doing what I ask.

I seldom see any float in the reins when a rider is hyperflexing his/her horse, and it's no wonder as this must be an incredibly difficult and impractical position for a horse to maintain for any length of time, especially when in motion. I've always been taught that the most effective stretching is done with muscles not under tension. A horse that is trotting and barely able to see an inch in front of him must work harder to find his balance and it seems to me this must produce significant muscle tension throughout the body.

Even if the rider feels this practice makes for a better horse in competition I find it very difficult to believe that the ends justify the means WRT the horse as a living, breathing partner. However, I've thus far not even been convinced (high scores notwithstanding) that hyperflexion does make for a better competition horse. I don't know about others here, but my assessment of a dressage test does not depend solely on an externally flashy appearance. Probably a good thing I'm not a judge. ;)

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 02:38 PM
sabryant wrote:

The point I was trying to make about artists and muscians is that it has changed and branched out in a thousand inovative ways from the classical periods of both. !

Yes, but no one is trying to pass the new stuff off as classical art or music.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 03:03 PM
Exactly, and dressage is changing too. They still have the principles but they are branching out in ways that are making dresage more spectacular and I like it. I haven't seen a horse drop dead from RK yet! I've seen a lot of "classical" riders crank their horses necks/polls up, mouth open, tongue out or over the bit, back down/stiff/painful. What beauty is in that???

HXF
Jun. 4, 2006, 03:15 PM
HXF wrote:



The outcry is about not adhering to the principles of the Equestrian Art and that covers both issues.


Well, that's were you lose people, because "art" is subjective.

JSwan
Jun. 4, 2006, 03:27 PM
I'm not trying to intimidate anyone. I found sabryants posts on the Constitution, music and dressage to be so profoundly ignorant as to be unworthy of consideration - as well as a sad commentary on our schools.

And sabryant - it hasn't been "amended" much either.

And speaking as a musician, I also find your comments about music to be ignorant and completely without merit as well.

Tell me this. Exactly why do you require a dressage competition to be "spectacular"? This is a sport. Sport is spectacular in and of itself - it's a competition. Or do you require laser light shows, glitter and smoke machines?

That's entertainment. And Rollkur doesn't belong there either.

I find nothing innovative about Rollkur. It's a caricature and subjugation of an animal that is beautiful in nature and in harmony and balance with its rider - whether they are competing in dressage, eventing, or any other sport.

Do you require horses to die? I can tell you absolutely that soring is inhumane and should not be permitted. Yet I do not require a horse to die (even though many have) to prove my point.

Please don't tell me your dressage instructor is giving you the same quality instruction as your government teacher.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 03:50 PM
HXF wrote:

Well, that's were you lose people, because "art" is subjective.

We are not talk about ‘art’ in general. We are talking about the Equestrian Art which has established clear rules and principles.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 03:54 PM
sabryant wrote:

Exactly, and dressage is changing too. They still have the principles but they are branching out in ways that are making dresage more spectacular and I like it.

When music doesn’t follow the classical principles of music it is still considered music but it is called something else, like rock and roll, jazz, pop, country, etc. Likewise, riding that does not follow the principles of the Equestrian Art can still be considered horseback riding but it can not be considered dressage. It’s another style of riding. If you like this other style of riding then that’s fine for you but please don’t try to force us to accept it as dressage.

sabryant wrote:

I've seen a lot of "classical" riders crank their horses necks/polls up, mouth open, tongue out or over the bit, back down/stiff/painful. What beauty is in that???

Cranking a horse’s neck/poll up, open mouths, tongues over bits, dropped backs, stiffness and pain are not considered acceptable practice of the Equestrian Art.

sm
Jun. 4, 2006, 03:59 PM
I wonder if an online petition regarding Article 419 can be started and then forwarded to the reguloratory agencies (FEI, etc). I know the eventers started an online petition but I'm not clear on the software needed. Although if it came through www.xenophon-classical-riding.org it would be better because it could be uniformly international (in several languages).

from post#64: "Chapter II Dressage Events
Article 419 OBJECT OF INTERNATIONAL DRESSAGE EVENTS
The FEI instituted an International Dressage Event in 1929 in order to preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come."

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:00 PM
Just FYI JSwan, the constitution of the US has been amended all over the place!!! I have a college degree in HISTORY and 18 hours towards a MASTERS in HISTORY! You seem to be so hell bent on Classical that you can't see the forest for the trees. Just because trainers use deep/RK doesn't in any way preface the fact that they aren't using all other classical methods besides the poll the highest point every second. I strive/train to teach all of my horses/students around the inside leg to the outside rein, keeping these classical principles in every movement/exercise so that I can put any or all parts of a horse any place in the arena that I choose when I choose to do it. Sounds like submission! Most of the time, I do this deep...it helps the back to relax and hind legs to come through. I can, also, more easily put the hind leg into the connecting muscles just in front of the wither and build up these muscles much quicker than if I ride the poll the highest point. I'll just bet, if I got atop one of your horses if in fact you ride, I would see a big, skinny hole in the connection muscles just in front of the wither....rather your horses connection muscle (the widest part of your horses neck) would be somewhere up the neck in the middle or the third/fourth vertebra from the poll.

sm
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:03 PM
sab: do you ride like the photos posted? There are conceivably a million degrees of RK according to the FEI, from a fraction (less than one inch) BTV to the photos shown. Do you ride like the photos posted?

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:19 PM
The more spectacular a ride is the more spectators. The more spectators, the more money to this sport!

Ghazzu
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:22 PM
Exactly, and dressage is changing too. They still have the principles but they are branching out in ways that are making dresage more spectacular and I like it. I haven't seen a horse drop dead from RK yet! I've seen a lot of "classical" riders crank their horses necks/polls up, mouth open, tongue out or over the bit, back down/stiff/painful. What beauty is in that???

Few horse drop dead after being beaten, either, but that doesn't make it less abusive.

sm
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:23 PM
" The more spectacular a ride is the more spectators. The more spectators, the more money to this sport!"

Then change the test like the figure skaters figured out a way to make the technical jumps interesting (YEARS AGO THEY HAD THIS PROBLEM) to spectators that don't know a half axel from a whatever. What does cruelty have to do with it -- watching that crap is spectacular?????

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:25 PM
Hi sm, thanks for you nice post and question. i don't ride RK because I've never had a horse with a neck set so high on the shoulder/wither. If I did have this caliber of horse, I quite possibly would if I could not get the suppling of the poll and jaw done to satisfaction in the deep.

Ghazzu
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:31 PM
Just FYI JSwan, the constitution of the US has been amended all over the place!!! I have a college degree in HISTORY and 18 hours towards a MASTERS in HISTORY!

27 amendments, 10 of which were essentially part and parcel of the original. That leaves 17 amendments in over 200 years. I wouldn't call that "all over the place", though I suppose that's a matter of perspective.




I can, also, more easily put the hind leg into the connecting muscles just in front of the wither and build up these muscles much quicker than if I ride the poll the highest point. I'll just bet, if I got atop one of your horses if in fact you ride, I would see a big, skinny hole in the connection muscles just in front of the wither....rather your horses connection muscle (the widest part of your horses neck) would be somewhere up the neck in the middle or the third/fourth vertebra from the poll.

Could you please name these muscles of which you speak?
And please elaborate on what you mean by "put the hind leg into the connecting muscles"--I don't understand quite what you mean by that.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:33 PM
Why change the test...they look spectacular to me the way they are being ridden now! What needs changing is the mindset of the old ways and the people who think they know everything there is to know about classical!!!!

Aptor Hours
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:36 PM
Hi sm, thanks for you nice post and question. i don't ride RK because I've never had a horse with a neck set so high on the shoulder/wither. If I did have this caliber of horse, I quite possibly would if I could not get the suppling of the poll and jaw done to satisfaction in the deep.


Try riding an ASB. I know my horse can and do that Rolkur stuff easy as pie. Maybe just maybe Rolkur would be abusive on some horses and not abusive on other depending on how they are built. It would be abusive to make some horses attempt to jump huge fences but not others....so maybe the real answer lies within the horse.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:40 PM
sabryant wrote:

...I can put any or all parts of a horse any place in the arena that I choose when I choose to do it. Sounds like submission! Most of the time, I do this deep...it helps the back to relax and hind legs to come through. I can, also, more easily put the hind leg into the connecting muscles just in front of the wither and build up these muscles much quicker than if I ride the poll the highest point.

Riding the horse in an unnatural head position can seem to “work” because it makes the horse feel ‘rounder’ and more ‘relaxed’. Many judges will even reward this kind of riding very highly. But it comes at a price. When the horse’s natural head position is constrained the horse compensates for the imbalance and restriction of its movement with an underlying tension that distorts the gaits, inhibits throughness and hinders engagement.

Tension in the horse’s back is a sign that the horse is imbalanced, uncomfortable, anxious or has a physical issue. The proper use of the basic elements of the training scale (correcting the rider’s equitation, the horse’s rhythm, relaxation, contact, straightness) is completely sufficient to alleviate tension. A certain amount of skill is required to relax and balance a horse effectively. There is just no way around that. With some horses it seems like you can get the basics only close to correct and the horse will go beautifully. With others, an element of the basics can be off by only a fraction of a degree and the horse will go horribly. When the basics are truly correct but just not working, it’s usually a sign that the horse has a painful physical issue.

Ghazzu
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:40 PM
Why change the test...they look spectacular to me the way they are being ridden now! What needs changing is the mindset of the old ways and the people who think they know everything there is to know about classical!!!!

It isn't a question of knowing anything about "classical", really.
It's a question of knowing the difference between "training" and "abuse".

A friend's young son once saw an Arab/ASB being ridden essentially in RK--prepping for, of all things, a hunter pleasure class, and he turned to his mother and asked "why is that horse sad?"
He's older now, but I bet he'd still recognize it in the dressage warmups.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 04:50 PM
________________________________________
sabryant wrote:

Why change the test...they look spectacular to me the way they are being ridden now! What needs changing is the mindset of the old ways and the people who think they know everything there is to know about classical!!!!


Today’s tests may look fine to you but they don’t look fine to those who see the value in preserving the Equestrian Art. Why not call this new style of riding something other than dressage?

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:00 PM
why not call all paintings, oils, pastels something other than art. Why not call all music something other than music.

kkj
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:02 PM
Sabrayant, if you just want a spectacular sport take up extreme motorcross. Hell do it naked. Make a freak show out of yourself. Leave the poor horses out of it.

Oh and I have a horse with a very well set on neck that has a huge natural talent for collection, great carrying power and articulation of the joints and an ability to sit. She is so responsive and light. I could pull this Rolkur crap on her with my pinkys but it would still be gross abuse.

Forcing a horse to do that crap to put on a big spectator show, well as a spectator I would rather see your butt catapulted in the air. Now that would be a show. Ever wonder why the average American would rather watch a rodeo than dressage?

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:05 PM
I don't force a horse to do anything. I am not strong enough to do that. I don't use gadgets either.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:07 PM
I don't think anyone would want to see me naked! But thanks for the suggestion!

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:17 PM
Ghazzu

If you want an explaination of the muscles I am talking about and where/how the hind end is put into them, send me a check for a lesson fee and I will email you the answer.

ailis36
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:28 PM
"If you want an explaination of the muscles I am talking about and where/how the hind end is put into them, send me a check for a lesson fee and I will email you the answer."


......and for an extra $10 you can get a psychic reading and a St. Francis pet medal for your hamster.

Karoline
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:31 PM
I am going to post this on the Von Ziegner thread but some of the things he speaks of 8 years ago really hit the spot for me when I read Sabryant posts on what dressage is, what riding is. I have pulled 2 quotes that stand in contrast to the Extreme Dressage or Fear Factor Dressage that some seem to embrace so enthusiastically...those who find harmony boring and the ever present threat of a blow up so much more exciting.

Note that at the time, he was very worried with the quality of the German FN and how dressage was deteriorating.

http://www.hodgemony.com/dressage/pages/wanted.html


"However, we already see here [in Germany] as well as abroad how horses are forced into straight jackets and are virtually raped so that they will perform the tests with as few mistakes as possible and show the judge a "trained" horse. There is little left of the horse's natural vigour or lively expression. This cannot be the purpose or goal of dressage! "

"Mediocre trainers cannot make draw reins and other methods of force the norm, just because they themselves cannot get by without them, and because they are incapable of teaching their students the correct seat and aids to a degree where they do not need these devices."

Aptor Hours
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:32 PM
Here it is called Yosage:


http://blythdale.tripod.com/coventryequestriancenter/id55.html

Ghazzu
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:36 PM
Ghazzu

If you want an explaination of the muscles I am talking about and where/how the hind end is put into them, send me a check for a lesson fee and I will email you the answer.

Only if you throw in teaching my granny to suck eggs. Do you really know what you're talking about, or are you just blowing smoke? Because it really doesn't make a lot of anatomical sense the way you phrase it.

I don't think I would to pay a history major to teach me anatomy, any road.

Karoline
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:37 PM
Forward Down OUT

Karoline
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:39 PM
Ghazzu

If you want an explaination of the muscles I am talking about and where/how the hind end is put into them, send me a check for a lesson fee and I will email you the answer.

And I am very curious about what muscles you are speaking about. For the discussion's sake, can you elaborate? I have a week long advanced anatomy class in August, and I would love to learn more in the meantime.

http://www.equinology.com/info/course.asp?courseid=19

Aptor Hours
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:58 PM
Could somebody post pictures of Rolkur? I am curious.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 05:59 PM
Sorry, there has been no discussion here. It has been, MOSTLY, a pack of UGLY, DEPRECATING remarks because someone disagrees with you! ailis36's remark wins the prize!

Karoline
Jun. 4, 2006, 06:02 PM
http://www.hippocampus-nl.com/s2e.php?content_id=353

And of course: http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/how.php

mbm
Jun. 4, 2006, 06:20 PM
Could somebody post pictures of Rolkur? I am curious.

the OP has a link to horseforlife.com - it is an online magazine with a double issue this month all about rollkur.

www.horsesforlife.com



and sabyant - i find it intriquing that someone that sells st francis medals is so clearly not for the welfare of the horse......

and btw: i suggested Extreme Dressage a long time ago.... i think it is a good name for what you seem to prefer :)

HXF
Jun. 4, 2006, 06:23 PM
HXF wrote:


We are not talk about ‘art’ in general. We are talking about the Equestrian Art which has established clear rules and principles.


..which is judged subjectively on those clear rules and principles.

Tonja
Jun. 4, 2006, 06:49 PM
HXF wrote:

..which is judged subjectively on those clear rules and principles.

Dressage can be judged subjectively only to a point, otherwise ANYTHING can be called ‘dressage’. There does come a point where riding can no longer be considered dressage. It seems now days many ‘top’ judges are rewarding work that is the very opposite of what the rules of the Equestrian Art stipulate.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 06:56 PM
mbm, I am, totally, for the welfare of all animals, especially since they have not a "say" in life! I just do not believe that deep is abusive to horses. I think exactly the opposite! The picture on the Yosage website is how I start a young horse out. The back is up, the neck/nose is down (NOT OUT) and the hind legs are through. (if that picture in yosage was with the nose out, you would not see the back so nicely up or the hind legs so nicely under) When they have built enough muscle for this and it becomes easy for them, I ask with a little shorter rein more flexion up front and behind and etc., building up from there. Every horse I have trained in this manner loves it!!!! I have made horses, with gait anomalies, sound using this method. Horses with navicular sound with this method. I don't use rollkur but I can see how a particular horse might need it but only if he has progressed to it slowly. Any athlete (man, horse, whatever) should be able to do the extreme of his sport. That is what makes a top athlete!

Karoline
Jun. 4, 2006, 07:10 PM
That is definitely fdo. I dont understand how you can think of it as anything else. But I am glad that this is what you do with your babies.

Explanation of FOD with illustration and anatomic description.

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/behind_the_vertical.php

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 07:18 PM
Ghazzu,

I would not expect what I said to make sense to you.
That is why I didn't explain. You would put it through the thread shredder and spit it out as is apparent in your last post! Why waste my time?

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 07:25 PM
Karoline, I like this site of the f/d/o. It is different from what most "classical" americans think. Check out Tonja's site. That is the f/d/o over here.

Karoline
Jun. 4, 2006, 09:35 PM
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm

You have to scroll down a bit to where it says The ‘Forward and Down’ Exercise' it does look like the principle is the same as that of the sustainabledressage one. The difference I see is she does not call it FDO but only FD.

What other difference am I missing? Or is there other references to FDO I did not find?

Ghazzu
Jun. 4, 2006, 10:31 PM
Ghazzu,

I would not expect what I said to make sense to you.
That is why I didn't explain. You would put it through the thread shredder and spit it out as is apparent in your last post! Why waste my time?
Sorry. Sounds more and more like blowing smoke to me. How could I possibly shred the truth? And how was a simple commentary like enumerating changes to the US Constitution "shredding"? Nope, methinks you are a purveyor of the snappy soundbite and little of substance.All hat and no cattle, as the saying goes.

Fork over the information, and I'll make a contribution to the Morris Animal Foundation.

mbm
Jun. 4, 2006, 10:42 PM
Karoline, I like this site of the f/d/o. It is different from what most "classical" americans think. Check out Tonja's site. That is the f/d/o over here.


can you clarify what you mean by this? what dont americans *get* about fdo?

because for me, (and i am an american) fdo is what is on theresa's site..... it does take skill tho to get the horse to go forward down and *out* (ie without curling....) (and it is cool to see it happen even on the lunge without side reins :) )

and fyi - i got the distinct impression throughout this thread that you ride deep if not very deep.... BTV and round..... and yet now you are saying that you were talking about FDO all along? i'm confused.

Karoline
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:18 PM
Hello m, I think Sabryant was explaining that she starts her babies FDO, and when they are ready she brings them up/in.

P.R.E.
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:37 PM
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm

You have to scroll down a bit to where it says The ‘Forward and Down’ Exercise' it does look like the principle is the same as that of the sustainabledressage one. The difference I see is she does not call it FDO but only FD.

What other difference am I missing? Or is there other references to FDO I did not find?

Nice graphics in the website, very detailed information and great effort, nevertheless not completely accurate. Is more a theory of horse movement, than an accurate reflection of the horse mechanics.

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:43 PM
Karoline

The differences that I see in the illustration on Tonja's vs what the two greys toward the end of your site are: the back is flat, the withers appear to be down, the horse looks strung out rather than stretching across his whole top line. The bay horse in your f/d/o section looks a bit like the illustration horse in Tonja's site and is what I see in American when people, of the classical notion, try to imitate f/d/o. The two greys look totally different to me as the backs are up the hinds are under and the horse is working on a great stretch from back to front and the riders are showing the horse the way to the ground!

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:47 PM
showing the horse the way to the ground = teaching the horse to reach for the bit with his hind legs

Sabine
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:50 PM
showing the horse the way to the ground = teaching the horse to reach for the bit with his hind legs


Jeez woman- you had quite a battle on your hands- aren't you getting tired giving free training lessons...;)

Good saves- bless you for your patience...and on to riding deep and btv- :)

sabryant
Jun. 4, 2006, 11:58 PM
Yeah, SAB, you made it! Thank God for all the world!!!

physical.energy
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:00 AM
I had to laugh when I read someone above offering to give a VET, equine anatomy lessons:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:02 AM
tired of the ugly replies, but never tired of speaking up for deep!!

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:20 AM
not just babies, also, any age horse that comes to me without the muscles in front of the wither being the widest part of the neck.

P.R.E.
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:35 AM
I had to laugh when I read someone above offering to give a VET, equine anatomy lessons:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

Who is the vet? so we can all laugh

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:54 AM
I had to laugh when I read someone above offering to give a VET, equine anatomy lessons:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)


I don't know how you can just waltz in here and make a statement like this having not read all of the posts??? It is from people like you that a world of rumors get started! just because someone is a vet does not mean they have a first clue about dressage and how the anatomy works with different TRAINING styles! I don't know the NAMES of sets of muscles AS I AM SURE SHE DOES, but I do KNOW HOW THE MUSCLES WORK FOR MY STYLE OF TRAINING DRESSAGE.

Meredith Clark
Jun. 5, 2006, 01:03 AM
Just Say No To Rollkur: http://community.webshots.com/photo/408905413/1408940930068747398msQSxa

Juuuuust Kidding... they were talking about this over at the eventing board so I read all of the posts here. We do walk trot tests and that picture was his first outting..do not flame me for having a sense of humor and love of silly OTTBs :)

Dressage on!

P.R.E.
Jun. 5, 2006, 01:11 AM
I had to laugh when I read someone above offering to give a VET, equine anatomy lessons:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

Is even more funny, when someone thinks that because someone is a vet, they are experts in physics and mechanics, which are the nature rules that determine the movement of a horse and the behavior of their bodies when it's influenced by a rider.

JSwan
Jun. 5, 2006, 05:59 AM
Just FYI JSwan, the constitution of the US has been amended all over the place!!! I have a college degree in HISTORY and 18 hours towards a MASTERS in HISTORY! You seem to be so hell bent on Classical that you can't see the forest for the trees. Just because trainers use deep/RK doesn't in any way preface the fact that they aren't using all other classical methods besides the poll the highest point every second. I strive/train to teach all of my horses/students around the inside leg to the outside rein, keeping these classical principles in every movement/exercise so that I can put any or all parts of a horse any place in the arena that I choose when I choose to do it. Sounds like submission! Most of the time, I do this deep...it helps the back to relax and hind legs to come through. I can, also, more easily put the hind leg into the connecting muscles just in front of the wither and build up these muscles much quicker than if I ride the poll the highest point. I'll just bet, if I got atop one of your horses if in fact you ride, I would see a big, skinny hole in the connection muscles just in front of the wither....rather your horses connection muscle (the widest part of your horses neck) would be somewhere up the neck in the middle or the third/fourth vertebra from the poll.


I think you need to ask for your money back.

I'm not hell bent on "classical". You're making an assumption and blanket assertions In my posts I rarely even mention any theories or methods about what you call "classical". And I don't oppose "deep" in and of itself.

It helps if you actually read the entire post.

Based on your posts on this BB, I wouldn't even allow you to vote much less ride one of my horses.

And this thread isn't about you and how you train your students/horses. This thread is about Rollkur and its impact on the sport overall - as well as the horses welfare.

And yes, just because someone is a vet doesn't mean they know anything about dressage.

Just like someone with a history degree could know absolutely nothing about the Constitution.

But if I had to bet - my money's on Ghazzu.

For your edification, the US Constitution has been amended only 27 times. The first 10 are called the Bill of Rights. The rest have to do with abolishing slavery, elimination of the poll tax, Congressional pay limitations, suffrage, election of the President, creation of the income tax, reduction of the voting age, etc. Not to meet modern standards "all over the place" or "whims" - except argumentatively, the 18th Amendment.

This is one reason the current government is getting into a bit of hot water over doing things like eavesdropping without warrants and other irrititating violations of the Constititution. Because we don't amend it to "suit modern standards". If we did, Dubya would be agitating to get rid of those pesky first ten amendments.

Yes - a refund is in order.

sm
Jun. 5, 2006, 06:20 AM
thanks for post #107 with the link http://www.hodgemony.com/dressage/pages/wanted.html, here's an excerpt from von Ziegner and the value of ISOLATED MOVEMENTS in judging, from the "Thinking in Movements" section of article:

***

"What then is the point of the dressage training? Remember, if you will, the work Picture of a Trained Horse (Bild des gerittenen Pferdes), in which one of the most important German dressage judges of earlier times, Oberst von Heydebreck, shared his vision of dressage. This book has been translated into several languages and is well-known abroad. In it, there is nothing about movements, because they are only a means to an end in the continual strive toward harmony between horse and rider. He puts more emphasis on tempo, balance and expression - all elements that are only to be achieved through submission, contact, straightness and impulsion. The movements allow for gymnasticizing and obedience. Their training effect is the greatest when they are correctly ridden. In the dressage tests, judges reward those who are the closest to the ideal. This should not be at the cost of throughness, tempo and impulsion, however. This is the essence of dressage, and this is where the emphasis of the training should be placed.

If we stop seeing the horse as an object, then we have to think about how to preserve his natural energy and charm throughout his entire training. Everyone bears the responsibility of keeping the training system pure, above all, the German Riding Federation, the German Judges Federation and the German Rider and Driver Association.

The warnings both spoken and written have been discussed for years, but have obviously been ignored. A lever should be used where more effectiveness is sought: in the dressage tests. If this is to succeed, at least in individual tests, the relationship must increase from 4:1 in favor of the collective remarks to 4:3 or 4:2. This change would be a step in the right direction. The fundamental elements of the training system would again assume their proper importance and the mechanical drilling of movements would stop.

In the USA, there is a Prix St James, which is a combined dressage test that consists of Part I (Basic Test) and Part II (Prix St. Georges.) The total points from both tests determine the winner. In Part I, 280 points can be earned from 24 movements, and 200 points from the collective remarks (10 elements). This is a relationship of 1:4:1. Here, the goal is to show that no "tricks" lead to FEI, only solid basic training, whose fundamental elements of submission, throughness and impulsion are highly valued. Too bad that there is not something like that here. It would serve the purity of our system well -- and our horses would thank us for it..."

***

sm
Jun. 5, 2006, 07:22 AM
big smile here, this is priceless:

from J Swan, post#138: "This is one reason the current government is getting into a bit of hot water over doing things like eavesdropping without warrants and other irrititating violations of the Constititution. Because we don't amend it to "suit modern standards". If we did, Dubya would be agitating to get rid of those pesky first ten amendments. "

Coup De Des
Jun. 5, 2006, 07:36 AM
i haven't read any of your posts.. sorry but i don't understand the politics you go on with and i don't think i could stand to read if there was a post that defended those riders. I will openly admit those photo's made me cry. I cried for those horses and the awfulness of the "riding" they showed.

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 5, 2006, 07:38 AM
http://www.twhbea.com/PerformanceShow.htm

This is spectacular for the observers and there is a lot of money involved. Is it horsemanship?

Sannois
Jun. 5, 2006, 07:42 AM
But all I can say is hjow can anyone look at the horses in those Photos and call that Dressage! That is a disgrace, I dont care what anyone says. That goes against anything that is the principles of Dressage..
Sickening... even more so the folks that are trying to justify it! :mad: :no:

JSwan
Jun. 5, 2006, 08:00 AM
http://www.twhbea.com/PerformanceShow.htm

This is spectacular for the observers and there is a lot of money involved. Is it horsemanship?

Yes, isn't that interesting. Go to any big time park/gaited/saddle seat shindig and just for fun, shout - the USDA inspectors are here! And then see how many sudden scratches there are.

It's like the parting of the Red Sea.

What I find fascinating is that this argument has so much in common with soring it's unreal. Same justifications, same mud flinging (on both sides), the works.

I noticed Sabine jumped in again too - funny how when Dressage Guy posts his opposition to Rollkur, he is denigrated and ridiculed because he is "young" and inexperienced. Yet - when sabryant, who appears to be in the same age group - posts her support - Sabine is her champion.

Convenient.

bird4416
Jun. 5, 2006, 08:12 AM
J Swan, I was having the same musings about the similarities in the gaited industry and dressage. They both started trying to show the natural gaits of the horse and now what wins is an exageration of natural gaits and people are willing to do whatever it takes to get there. I know dressage hasn't gone to the extremes of the gaited horse industry but there are similarities.

JSwan
Jun. 5, 2006, 08:57 AM
I think the similarities between the extremes in the gaited industry and this trend in dressage are staring us right in the face.

A person does not need to be a diva to appreciate the nuances of The Marriage of Figaro.
A person does not need to be a lawyer to understand the Constitution.
A person does not need to be a high level competitor to understand the argument against Rollkur.

You just need a brain.

The arguments for Rollkur are the same arguments that people use that support soring. It's disturbing. The ends do not always justify the means.

sm
Jun. 5, 2006, 09:31 AM
although Soring became a federal offense in 1970 under the Horse Protection Act.

Where as the FEI doesn't see a problem with Rolkur.

Ghazzu
Jun. 5, 2006, 09:51 AM
just because someone is a vet does not mean they have a first clue about dressage and how the anatomy works with different TRAINING styles! I don't know the NAMES of sets of muscles AS I AM SURE SHE DOES, but I do KNOW HOW THE MUSCLES WORK FOR MY STYLE OF TRAINING DRESSAGE.

Well, fill me in, then.
I'm waiting with 'bated breath.

Tonja
Jun. 5, 2006, 09:55 AM
I hear people say that they can put any or all parts of a horse any place in the arena that they choose when they choose but it’s meaningless when they aren’t able to work the horse in a pure rhythm with relaxation, reaching honestly through to the bit and when they aren’t able to encourage the horse to carry weight on its haunches.

JSwan
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:13 AM
although Soring became a federal offense in 1970 under the Horse Protection Act.

Where as the FEI doesn't see a problem with Rolkur.

uh - well then why has the FEI formed a working group, pray tell? Why are questions being asked at all levels of the sport? The gaited industry fought just as hard - and in the same way - that Rollkur proponents do now.

In the US, Would you care to have Rollkur be subjected to the same level of examination that soring was? Because you might be dismayed to find the result might be USDA inspectors at dressage shows in the US.

And like Ghazzu - I am waiting to be educated on how equine physiology differs in "modern" horses to the extent that the laws of physics and biomechanics do not apply.

Geez -so many experts on horse physiology........

sm
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:56 AM
"In the US, Would you care to have Rollkur be subjected to the same level of examination that soring was? Because you might be dismayed to find the result might be USDA inspectors at dressage shows in the US. "

They are already talking about videoing the warm-up, or have points for the warm-up as part of the test. But if there's no problem and it's not illegal, then so what...

I already suggested a petition on page 5 post#88. And von Ziegner would like to see (or did at one point) the score reflect not so much the individual movement but overall harmony, see post#139. I think von Ziegner's idea post#139 is best because if people aren't rewarded for it by the judges -- they won't train RK. Go back to rewarding correct dressage.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:58 AM
I hear people say that they can put any or all parts of a horse any place in the arena that they choose when they choose but it’s meaningless when they aren’t able to work the horse in a pure rhythm with relaxation, reaching honestly through to the bit and when they aren’t able to encourage the horse to carry weight on its haunches.


How can you make a statement like this Tonja? It is pure conjecture on your part and not at all the case!

P.R.E.
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:08 AM
You just need a brain.



And after reading the tone of your posts and that your main argument is offending other people, it seems you should be looking were you left yours.

ideayoda
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:13 AM
Let see trainer of user of RK which is being 'studied' is vp of the fei dressage committee and their representative to the study.....conflict of interest?

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:26 AM
Ghuzzu

I am sure you must have heard of the bridge of muscle that connect a horse from hind to front. If the muscles, just in front of the wither and right below the mane, are not developed (are not the widest part of the neck) there is a hole in the connection. The solid development of these muscles allows the horse a steady place to step with his hind legs. They, essentially, become your hands so that you don't have to ride the horses mouth. The muscles behind the saddle, loin area, are the hind connecting muscles that need to be developed at the same time as the up front muscle (just in front of the wither) to complete the bridge of muscles. I don't care what the anotomical names of these muscles are, but I do care how they are developed and maintained. If the horse hasn't a steady place to step up front (other than your hand/bit) he is not connected or through his body in the right way. Once the bridge of muscles is developed, then stablized, and the horse has a solid place to step, you can move the horse anywhere you want in the arena without resistance. If you sit on top of a horse and the muscles directly in front of the wither are skinny, the widest part of the neck being somewhere else up the neck, the correct connection has not been developed. These kinds of horses are hard to ride because the hind end is all over the place and the horse can wiggle out of anything (he has no where to put his hind.) The fastest, most resistant free way I know of developing these muscles is with correct deep riding.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:54 AM
I would love for you to donate to the Morris Foundation. it is a great and worthy cause!

physical.energy
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:02 PM
I don't know how you can just waltz in here and make a statement like this having not read all of the posts??? It is from people like you that a world of rumors get started! just because someone is a vet does not mean they have a first clue about dressage and how the anatomy works with different TRAINING styles! I don't know the NAMES of sets of muscles AS I AM SURE SHE DOES, but I do KNOW HOW THE MUSCLES WORK FOR MY STYLE OF TRAINING DRESSAGE.

Don't be jumpin down my throat lil missy, I have not taken on any debate here other than I find humor in your offer to give a vet an anatomy lesson. And now that I have read your lesson I'm killin myself laughing. You sure told us! I'm sure JSwan, Ghazzu and I have all benifitted greatly by your masterful words.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: and learned so much more than we knew before!

And by the way didn't your mother teach you IT IS IMPOLITE TO SCREAM AT PEOPLE when others are having a civilized discussion?

You have no idea what peoples backgrounds are here and to talk as though you are the choosen messenger of the word of GOD is a bit more than some are willing to take.

And yes, I have earned the right to waltz into anywhere I want and make a statement. It's called a free freakin country.

claire
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:04 PM
The fastest, most resistant free way I know of developing these muscles is with correct deep riding.

sabryant, Thank you for taking the time to explain your method.

BUT, and please correct me if I am mis-understanding: you are talking about riding deep NOT about RK/Hyper-Flexion(as in the Anky/Sjef/Gall/Uphoff pictures/videos)?

At the risk of being called names :lol: I am trying to understand the RK/Hyper-Flexion controversy and would find it helpful to have a clear definition of what respondents to this discussion are defining as RK vs. Deep training/riding. Might be that there is more agreement on things than not? ;)

physical.energy
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:06 PM
Rollkur is UGLY:lol:

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:18 PM
Rollkur is UGLY:lol:


and so are your posts! I don't care who you, jscam or ghuzza are! God has not part in this except I'm sure He is weary of coming down on both sides of this argument

Ghazzu
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:29 PM
Ghuzzu

I am sure you must have heard of the bridge of muscle that connect a horse from hind to front. If the muscles, just in front of the wither and right below the mane, are not developed (are not the widest part of the neck) there is a hole in the connection. The solid development of these muscles allows the horse a steady place to step with his hind legs. They, essentially, become your hands so that you don't have to ride the horses mouth. The muscles behind the saddle, loin area, are the hind connecting muscles that need to be developed at the same time as the up front muscle (just in front of the wither) to complete the bridge of muscles. I don't care what the anotomical names of these muscles are, but I do care how they are developed and maintained. If the horse hasn't a steady place to step up front (other than your hand/bit) he is not connected or through his body in the right way. Once the bridge of muscles is developed, then stablized, and the horse has a solid place to step, you can move the horse anywhere you want in the arena without resistance. If you sit on top of a horse and the muscles directly in front of the wither are skinny, the widest part of the neck being somewhere else up the neck, the correct connection has not been developed. These kinds of horses are hard to ride because the hind end is all over the place and the horse can wiggle out of anything (he has no where to put his hind.) The fastest, most resistant free way I know of developing these muscles is with correct deep riding.

I won't argue at all that establishing a decent muscular topline is necessary in developing athleticism in a horse.
But that is far more safely done by what others here have been referring to as "forward/down/out" than by curling the chin to the chest.

Besides, if the object is to develop these muscles, why is it necessary to crank on them in the GP warmup ring? Surely they're supposed to be fit by them?

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:29 PM
Hi Claire. Thanks for you nice post!

RK is defined by people on this board as a horse biting his chest or some such wording as that. I have no clue what they mean by that. To explain what you are asking, deep precedes rk. Deep is with a longer neck and stretching down and then down toward the knees. There are degrees of deep...starting out a young or ill-trained horse, the degrees of deep are less. Once the horse has the muscle and is comfortable with this, you can ask for more degrees of deep and etc. ending up in Rollkur if that extreme is needed.

Tonja
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:34 PM
sabryant wrote:


Originally Posted by Tonja

I hear people say that they can put any or all parts of a horse any place in the arena that they choose when they choose but it’s meaningless when they aren’t able to work the horse in a pure rhythm with relaxation, reaching honestly through to the bit and when they aren’t able to encourage the horse to carry weight on its haunches.

How can you make a statement like this Tonja? It is pure conjecture on your part and not at all the case!



It’s not conjecture. I’ve seen it.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:36 PM
ghazzu

I don't curl the chin to the chest either. Read post to Claire for explain of deep into RK.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 12:39 PM
They aren't cranking as far as I've been able to tell. They are suppling the poll and the jaw in the warm up and asking for submission which is a huge part of riding a test

Ghazzu
Jun. 5, 2006, 01:12 PM
They aren't cranking as far as I've been able to tell. They are suppling the poll and the jaw in the warm up and asking for submission which is a huge part of riding a test

Hmm. Open mouthed, in spite of a crank with padding, tension on the curb rein, and engagement of the curb chain--sure looks like cranking on them to me, far more than a relaxation of the jaw.

While I agree that submission is a part of the test, isn't it the case though, that many of the horses trained with this RK methodology are damn near explosive? Are you saying they'd be worse if they weren't treated this way?

Moll
Jun. 5, 2006, 03:24 PM
They aren't cranking as far as I've been able to tell. They are suppling the poll and the jaw in the warm up and asking for submission which is a huge part of riding a test

You must be joking. This, suppling the poll and the jaw in the warmup???

http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6133CloseUpF.jpg
http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6713CloseUpF.jpg

Yeah - suppling as in using a lever for ultimate power. Yech.

Sannois
Jun. 5, 2006, 03:30 PM
They aren't cranking as far as I've been able to tell. They are suppling the poll and the jaw in the warm up and asking for submission which is a huge part of riding a test
WOW I guess you can see it how ever you want to be able to live with it! :lol: Pretty pathetic! How can any of you Look at those pictures and call that harmonious Dressage??? I ask again!!!!

ideayoda
Jun. 5, 2006, 03:50 PM
The jaw is not suppled unless the horse can chew and swallow. When the throatlatch is closed the atlas is not flexible, it is fixed and the wings are going into the skull. If the horse is taken down and closed the jaw is yielding to the bit, the tongue hands rather than softly thrusts as that happens. Properly the horse mobilizes the jaw and flexes itself, rather than being flexed by the action of the hand. And it should not be necessary to crank the noseband so tight that the skin comes over to force this action upon the horse. The poll is the bony parts of the skull, they are a fixed point which should be the highest point IF the hh are working and all the vertebral bodies meet evenly. Overflex laterally or longitudinally and this cannot happen, the neck shortens and caves vs causing the hindleg joints to all flex more and the horse to sit and lift. The two actions of proper taking of a halt halt or taking the horse down and back in the front are antithetical to each other. The second goes against proper uphill balance/aka collection. Finally IF the horse were flexing at the atlas properly the horse would not be coming behind the vertical, but at the most to the vertical. It is the action in the third vertebrae body (usually called a broken neck) which allows for overflexion, and it is done courtesty of the actions of the axis vertebral body which allows for the lateral flexability or excessive control.

Muscles are developed properly through BALANCED riding. The ability for the horse to take hh, properly use the hindlegs, and seek the hand f/d/o easily. That is why chewing the reins from the hand is in the test, NOT deep NOR btv NOR deep, but opening the throatlatch slightly so that the HH still work. The self carriage muscles develop the topline, self carriage up and open or self carriage f/d/o. Taking the nose back in deep does not allow for balance, but subverts resistance. We dont need to do it faster, just correctly.

JSwan
Jun. 5, 2006, 04:00 PM
WOW I guess you can see it how ever you want to be able to live with it! :lol: Pretty pathetic! How can any of you Look at those pictures and call that harmonious Dressage??? I ask again!!!!

Give up, Sannois. Ghuzza and JScam have already been called on the carpet for not knowing our ass from a hole in the ground. We just a bunch of stupid Americans. Or another epithet - I've lost count.

I just don't know how I've gotten this far in life without sabryants unique insight into the workings of the US Constitution, Sabine's invitation to ride in Europe to watch "real" dressage, or Slc's pretentious pouty ramblings about how no one likes her if we don't agree with what she writes.


I lurk all the time on this forum - and I gotta say - nothing folks have said supporting rolkur agrees with my common sense. Common sense tells me that using extremes in the training of the horse is inappropriate and should not be condoned or rewarded; this pertains to all horse sports.

But in my defense - if I am permitted one - I never start threads about controversial subjects. On the other hand, it really gets my goat when someone asks a question and the dressage divas descend en masse.

Geez folks - it's simple. Lots of folks disapprove of rolkur for all sorts of reasons - some legitimate, some not - I have no doubt. So???? Again and again what I see is the first and only type of response being that we "don't get it" - or we're too stupid/provincial/old/staid/ to know that dressage should be "spectacular". That gets the ball rolling for folks like me who generally just lurk until they see the soapboxes being dragged out.

If they are wrong - no one is harmed. If they are right - the users of rolkur have a lot to answer for.

monstrpony
Jun. 5, 2006, 04:11 PM
We really DO need a puking icon here. Maybe a cross between :no: and :o with a little :uhoh: thrown in for good measure.

I looked at the photos on that website this morning, and my faltering relationship with dressage today breathed its last. I don't care if the photos are only snapshots, only a moment in an otherwise perfect ride (yeah, as if); if this is what dressage has become, I want no part of it. Classical good riding, yes, but not what "dressage" has become today. No, thank you.

Poor horses!

Sannois
Jun. 5, 2006, 04:11 PM
Yoda, But then again I have been acused by slc for only praising posts that I agree with.. ummm yeah!
I sure as heck now know that all the people who can justify and find nothing wrong with the Photos, have values that I do not share. To see those pictures is to see beauty??? I am just disgusted.
I love how the answers range from, well.. You have never ridden that level, to its only in warm up etc. My god people do you really believe this crap. I am wasting my time, I know that, I am just flabbergasted that so many of you can justify it, some say well they dont train that that way, but still see nothing wrong with it. Thats Dressage to you all huh?? Well I will stick to the out dated slow methods. Harmonious partnership??? Those pictures look like some medieval torture.. Yeah. those animals look willing.. Anything as long as you stop putting my neck and head in this position.. Oh whats the use! :no:

Lisa Cook
Jun. 5, 2006, 04:16 PM
My first and probably only post on RK. These pictures:

http://horsesforlife.com/images/stor...33CloseUpF.jpg (http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6133CloseUpF.jpg)

http://horsesforlife.com/images/stor...13CloseUpF.jpg (http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6713CloseUpF.jpg)

seriously make me queasy.

That is not classical anything....that is horrific. :dead:

Sannois
Jun. 5, 2006, 04:21 PM
Give up, Sannois. Ghuzza and JScam have already been called on the carpet for not knowing our ass from a hole in the ground. We just a bunch of stupid Americans. Or another epithet - I've lost count.

I just don't know how I've gotten this far in life without sabryants unique insight into the workings of the US Constitution, Sabine's invitation to ride in Europe to watch "real" dressage, or Slc's pretentious pouty ramblings about how no one likes her if we don't agree with what she writes.


I lurk all the time on this forum - and I gotta say - nothing folks have said supporting rolkur agrees with my common sense. Common sense tells me that using extremes in the training of the horse is inappropriate and should not be condoned or rewarded; this pertains to all horse sports.

But in my defense - if I am permitted one - I never start threads about controversial subjects. On the other hand, it really gets my goat when someone asks a question and the dressage divas descend en masse.

Geez folks - it's simple. Lots of folks disapprove of rolkur for all sorts of reasons - some legitimate, some not - I have no doubt. So???? Again and again what I see is the first and only type of response being that we "don't get it" - or we're too stupid/provincial/old/staid/ to know that dressage should be "spectacular". That gets the ball rolling for folks like me who generally just lurk until they see the soapboxes being dragged out.

If they are wrong - no one is harmed. If they are right - the users of rolkur have a lot to answer for.
I'm a moron, I just cant believe it.. the whole thing just sickens me.. I am afraid Monster Pony put it the way I feel. :no:
Oh wait but I am just emotional... You know I would like to hear someone answer Ghazzu's question in the post a bit above. But I too am pretty provincial! OH yes, and Old!! probably staid too!
Dressage should be spectacular huh?? gee do they mean like the Halter Arabs, that they whip into a frenzy frenzy before they go into the ring??
So they look Firey!!!

Tonja
Jun. 5, 2006, 04:31 PM
IMHO, If a rider has to go to such extreme measures to “supple the poll and the jaw” of a sound horse then there is something seriously wrong in the rider’s application of the basics.

Ghazzu
Jun. 5, 2006, 04:50 PM
gee do they mean like the Halter Arabs, that they whip into a frenzy frenzy before they go into the ring??
So they look Firey!!!

Hell, at least we were sufficiently embarrassed by that we passed a rule against it...

JSwan
Jun. 5, 2006, 05:03 PM
Again - extremes are inappropriate - whether labeled "classical", "Big Lick", Rollkur, yadda yadda.

Because when I refer to "Rolkur" - I'm referring to the extremes exhibited in the warm up and schooling of the horses - only one example of which is linked to in this thread. There's lots more where that came from. Heck - on another thread a person linked to a site that defined soring and its history - and wouldn't you know - the same justifications and explanations for soring, pads and chains are the same ones being used for Rolkur. I find that speaks volumes.

Soooo.... for the folks who either use this method on thier own horses, or would like to post photos that illustrate Rolkur in a more attractive light - I'm waiting. Because I haven't seen anything.

Ghazzu
Jun. 5, 2006, 05:03 PM
...to a colleague who has a DVM and an advanced degree in biomechanics. Said colleague didn't want to be directly quoted, but I am going to take the liberty of posting their opening statement without identifying them.

"All I can say after seeing those pictures is eeeeyuuuueeewwww!!!"

claire
Jun. 5, 2006, 05:21 PM
http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6133CloseUpF.jpg
http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6713CloseUpF.jpg

[quote=sabryant] They aren't cranking as far as I've been able to tell. They are suppling the poll and the jaw in the warm-up and asking for submission. [quote]

sabryant, Respectfully, the above photos are what I am having a difficult time understanding as suppling :confused:
Suppling is momentary; not being held for prolonged periods of time.

The photos on this site (at best) reflect a ring full of riders having "Come to Jesus" moments simultaneously. (one picture on the site shows a rider so braced on her stirrups she is coming off the saddle! :eek: ) And I believe these photos are taken at a warm-up for the Dutch nationals?

Saying a moment in time/touched up photos does not explain the number of videos and first and second hand actual experiences of the RK/Hyperflexion riding method shown in the above photos.

Saying politics or agenda does not explain the number of riders/trainers
WITHOUT a "dog in this fight" who have come back from Europe relating that this sort of "method/riding" IS what it looks like in private BNT barns and in warm-ups. Moreover, because it is the method of choice for "Famous" riders is is being copied BADLY by the hoi poli.

One last thought, I am sorry if the photos /videos here are of someone's friend/trainer/business associate. It must be very difficult to see them being criticized.

When I first started riding; the barn where I boarded had a TWH trainer and her students renting a barn at the facility.
It was so difficult for me to understand how such nice,caring people (and they WERE) could train and do things to these horses (soring and chains and shoeing)
I expressed my confusion to my then trainer (an "old wise horseman" ;) )
who told me that I COULD like these people and at the same time disapprove of their actions...

I often think about this advice...

Daydream Believer
Jun. 5, 2006, 05:40 PM
Muscles are developed properly through BALANCED riding. The ability for the horse to take hh, properly use the hindlegs, and seek the hand f/d/o easily. That is why chewing the reins from the hand is in the test, NOT deep NOR btv NOR deep, but opening the throatlatch slightly so that the HH still work. The self carriage muscles develop the topline, self carriage up and open or self carriage f/d/o. Taking the nose back in deep does not allow for balance, but subverts resistance. We dont need to do it faster, just correctly.

Thank you for this. I started to reply earlier to her comment about deep being the fastest way to build the ring of muscles but did not have time to compose a well thought out message. My horse is much happier working my horses FDO than he was when I did try deep (under the instruction of an FEI rider). I'm in no hurry either and would rather not risk the downsides to deep work not done 100% properly.

Sannois
Jun. 5, 2006, 05:42 PM
Hell, at least we were sufficiently embarrassed by that we passed a rule against it...
I doubt that will happen with this! Well if its in the right hands its ok correct?? :eek: But wait, I seriously have never ridden grand prix so I have no knowledge of such things! :no:

bovon
Jun. 5, 2006, 06:00 PM
it makes me want to cry..god save em..the horses that is..to hell w/ the riders inflicting that abuse! no, actually perhaps we could tie their( Riders) heads down to their chests and than make them piaffe and passage and whatever else until they beg for mercy

mbm
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:12 PM
after listening to the pro group go on and on page after page about the wonderfullness of rollkur (or how the folks that dont like it are idiots, Training level riders, etc etc) , made me doubt there were folks here that really cared. i am glad to read there is.

now all we gotta do is write to the sponsors of the topriders and tell them what we think :)

i will get links....

here is the first:

Keltec Dispensing Systems B.V.
http://www.keltecbv.com
International and Multinational Private company
Albert Einsteinweg 10, Drunen , Netherlands
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sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:37 PM
You must be joking. This, suppling the poll and the jaw in the warmup???

http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6133CloseUpF.jpg
http://horsesforlife.com/images/stories/June2006/TheresaRollkur/6713CloseUpF.jpg

Yeah - suppling as in using a lever for ultimate power. Yech.

It would be hard to tell if a horse was being cranked in one/two pictures. I would have to see the whole photo of riders leg and most likely a video would be more easy to see that the leg is working with the receiving rein. My defintion of cranked is when the hands alone are holding without a leg aids. When the hands and the legs work together equally, there is not cranking. I've seen plenty of "Classical" riders, crank out whole tests with their horses mouth open and sometimes the tongue hanging out!

By the looks of the two horses in these photos, they don't appear to be cranked. They have the neck muscles well set on in the right places. When those muscles are set on the neck correctly, contrary to what Ideay says (when a gymnist does the splits their pelvic bone does not stick down into up into their leg bone....because the tendons and ligaments are soft and supple) the extreme flexion can be applied to the nth degree. These are top athletes, and should be able to go to the extreme...that is what makes them brilliant.

Karoline
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:42 PM
If you look at these pictures and you can rationalize them and find them not just acceptable but laudable, then, there is not much room for discussion. For me, the angle of the curb, the tension, the gaping mouth, the eye on the chestnut, the tension in the neck, this all screams abuse of force. But to you, its thumbs up, a prelude to brilliance. What to say to that.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:52 PM
Karoline, I can't tell you how many horses I have seen ridden poll highest point their entire lives that look a whole lot worse than what YOU see here.

Karoline
Jun. 5, 2006, 10:58 PM
We cannot escuse a wrong by a wrong. I am not a supporter of anything other then strict adherence to the FEI guidelines. To me, that is neither classical or competitive, it is correct.

I promise that when I see horses ridden inverted, mouth gaping, back drop, I am equally unpleasant :-)

We need to strive for what is correct. Not what is extreme and not in the FEI guidelines.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:04 PM
I am not trying to be mean, I hate all of the posts that belittle anything you post, it hurts my soul, but to me, I would much rather see this, than what I have, mostly, been looking at for the last 30 to 40 years.

Tonja
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:08 PM
sabryant Wrote:

I've seen plenty of "Classical" riders, crank out whole tests with their horses mouth open and sometimes the tongue hanging out!
and

Karoline, I can't tell you how many horses I have seen ridden poll highest point their entire lives that look a whole lot worse than what YOU see here.

If you saw someone cranking out whole tests with their horse’ smouth open and sometimes with their horse’ stongues hanging out it wasn’t classical riding – no matter WHO claimed that it was.

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:09 PM
K, This I can make sense out of! The other I cannot.

sabryant
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:31 PM
Tonja

The next time you are at a horse show, look around at the horses in the stalls or the ones being ridden (warming up or in test) and tell me how many you see with a dip (any dip, even a little one) in front of their wither? This is not classical either! I can garuantee these horses are being "sored" somewhere.

Karoline
Jun. 5, 2006, 11:39 PM
Perhaps I, we, should try to remember more often that we all love horses and that our reactions are shaped by our educations, environment, cultures, etc...Perhaps for you S, you have been surrounded by extremely bad attempts at "classical". We are all reacting to what we consider abusive.

It still does not make rk acceptable to me, but we do not need to bite each other's head off. You are right :-)

Tonja
Jun. 6, 2006, 01:29 AM
sabryant wrote:

Tonja

The next time you are at a horse show, look around at the horses in the stalls or the ones being ridden (warming up or in test) and tell me how many you see with a dip (any dip, even a little one) in front of their wither? This is not classical either! I can garuantee these horses are being "sored" somewhere.

ANY riding that is detrimental to the horse is not considered classical. Classical riding is riding that is in harmony with the horse’s balance & psyche – its nature.

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 6, 2006, 06:14 AM
To some, winning is everything and the ends will always justify the means. you cannot convince them. Dressage is supposed to be about training, not just horse showing. It's a shame how things change sometimes. It seems all those rail-birds may have had a point.

sm
Jun. 6, 2006, 07:59 AM
To mbm on post#185: Yours is a great idea. Maybe sponsors would like to be directed to a petition too, they can read a petition as well as recieve individual emails. But I do draw the line at the FEI judges working outside the rulebook too...

***
post#185: "after listening to the pro group go on and on page after page about the wonderfullness of rollkur (or how the folks that dont like it are idiots, Training level riders, etc etc) , made me doubt there were folks here that really cared. i am glad to read there is.

"now all we gotta do is write to the sponsors of the topriders and tell them what we think

"i will get links.... "

***

P.R.E.
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:21 AM
Tonja

ANY riding that is detrimental to the horse is not considered classical. Classical riding is riding that is in harmony with the horse’s balance & psyche – its nature.
Are you a classical rider?
Are you a classical dressage trainer?

snoopy
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:33 AM
If classical means:

Kind
Compassionate
Thoughtful
Balanced
Patient
Soft
Light
etc etc

Then count me in the classical rider/classical trainer club.

RK shows NONE of these qualities!!!!

PineTreeFarm
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:38 AM
Tonja

The next time you are at a horse show, look around at the horses in the stalls or the ones being ridden (warming up or in test) and tell me how many you see with a dip (any dip, even a little one) in front of their wither? This is not classical either! I can garuantee these horses are being "sored" somewhere.

Sabryant
To me, 'sored' means pasterns irritated to produce higher action ( TWH ).
So how do you get to the above quote? Definition of 'sored' please.

Just as an FYI, I've seen many hunters with a dip in front of the neck. Nobody cared, made no difference in performance.

Tonja
Jun. 6, 2006, 08:52 AM
P.R.E. wrote



Originally Posted by Tonja
Tonja

ANY riding that is detrimental to the horse is not considered classical. Classical riding is riding that is in harmony with the horse’s balance & psyche – its nature.
Are you a classical rider?
Are you a classical dressage trainer?


I do my best to ride horses in a way that is harmonious with their balance & psyche.

kkj
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:05 AM
I am not against spectacular. I have been to three World Cups and Two Olympics and could sit in a chair for days and watch the spectacular riders and horses. I cried when I saw Lingh perform in the World Cup in Vegas. I thought the gaits were so pure and the harmony breathtaking. I have loved watching Anky. I did see tension there though and thought Lingh and Brettina should have beaten Salinero.

I am not against riding btv or deep or whatever for a moment or two if you know what you are doing.

I am not against change or evolution in dressage to a point.

The whole Constitution argument, I think Sabrayant may have meant more that there are so many ways to interpret the Constitution and the popular interpretations of certain parts of the Constitution has changed much over the years while the written words have changed very little (by amendment) So much of the Constitution is left open for interpretation and this interpretation is of course very colored by the perspective, beliefs, agenda, experiences, etc of the interpreter. I think Dressage is similar that way. Two people can watch the same ride and interpret it very differently. That is OK and that is so with any Art.

However, when I see those Rolkur pictures-- well there is no way to interpret them as anything but abuse. If these are the tactics required to win at FEI dressage today, then there is something very very wrong. If you can't see those photos as abuse, I just don't think there is any base point from which we can discuss it together. And so my discussion on Rolkur is over.

ailis36
Jun. 6, 2006, 10:48 AM
"The next time you are at a horse show, look around at the horses in the stalls or the ones being ridden (warming up or in test) and tell me how many you see with a dip (any dip, even a little one) in front of their wither? This is not classical either! I can garuantee these horses are being "sored" somewhere"

Well, I'm looking out the window now, at a field of "UNSTARTED" 2 year old Thoroughbreds and most have the dip in front of the wither. They've spent their lives roaming hilly pastures, rarely been in a stall, and not one has ever been bitted, lunged or held a rider....so how exactly are these horses being "sored"...whatever the heck that means?

A wither dip is a conformational characteristic, commonly associated with Thoroughbred conformation, and caused by a low set neck. While it can be improved with correct riding, it often nevers disappears completely. So, I dare say, your Guarantee isn't worth much!

sm
Jun. 6, 2006, 01:14 PM
"sored" is illegal in the USA as of 1970, but it means applying chemicals to the horse's leg so it burns and the horse moves with more action to the gaits. Used primarily in 3 and 5 gaited classes (tennessee walkers, saddlebreds type of thing).

P.R.E.
Jun. 6, 2006, 01:34 PM
P.R.E. wrote




I do my best to ride horses in a way that is harmonious with their balance & psyche.
I asked, because after reading your postings, I was impressed with your knowledge and how strongly you critisize other professionals, so I visited you website and found out that you are a western, hunters and dressage trainer. This impressed me even more, because I had to stop completely my jumper career in order to focus in dressage. You in the other hand are an expert in all 3, I am really impressed, you must be super-talented. What is your secret?
P.D. There is a couple pictures in the website of someone riding in a dressage saddle and really leaning forward, I imagine that is a picture of one of your students and not of someone of your quality and vast knowledge.

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 01:35 PM
Webster's dictionary

SORE: 1-causing pain or distress
2- severe or intense

DressageGuy
Jun. 6, 2006, 01:45 PM
I'd have to agree that the "wither dip" is usually a conformation characteristic. My TB has it, and has since I bought him. It's gotten MUCH better since I've been working him more, but it'll never go away completely. I don't know why you're so hung up on that dip, I really don't.

ailis36
Jun. 6, 2006, 01:46 PM
I can garuantee these horses are being "sored" somewhere"


Webster's dictionary

SORE: 1-causing pain or distress
2- severe or intense

A quick grammar lesson...you mean the word sore then, NOT the word "sored". Technically, the word sored (sore as a verb) does not exist.....but has evolved over recent years to refer specifically to:

tr.v. sored, sor·ing, sores
To mutilate the legs or feet of (a horse) in order to induce a particular gait in the animal

So, if incorrect classsical riding and the pain associated with it, is the cause of the wither dip.....how do you explain my "dippy" UNSTARTED youngsters????

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 01:55 PM
That dip in front of the wither equals a hole in the training! It may take time for it to go away but it will go, completely, away over time with correct training. When there is a dip there is not a thorough connection from behind. Something is getting block somewhere and usually in the back/loin area. Horses don't think logically so we have to do it for them. They don't understand that carrying their back up is a more effective and balanced way for them to carry themselves. If they did, we wouldn't have to do all of this training! Young horses with dips in there necks, don't have riders on their backs and aren't being asked to carry weight which is not natural to them.

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:00 PM
Sorry ailis, I stand corrected. I should have worded it differently. I meant sore as pain and distress!

sm
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:01 PM
why would a dip in front of the withers mean a horse is sore or in distress?

"The next time you are at a horse show, look around at the horses in the stalls or the ones being ridden (warming up or in test) and tell me how many you see with a dip (any dip, even a little one) in front of their wither? This is not classical either! I can garuantee these horses are being "sored" somewhere"

Lisa Cook
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:06 PM
So, which is it?

The horse is being "sored" (like some other posters, I know this word in connection with gaited horses):


The next time you are at a horse show, look around at the horses in the stalls or the ones being ridden (warming up or in test) and tell me how many you see with a dip (any dip, even a little one) in front of their wither? This is not classical either! I can garuantee these horses are being "sored" somewhere.


Or it is being trained incorrectly?


That dip in front of the wither equals a hole in the training!

Kind of a big difference between those statements. One implies deliberate, intentional abuse of the horse. The other statement implies (in your opinion) incomplete or uneducated training.

Personally...I don't comprehend your big hangup on dips before withers. Have you been around many TBs? It is a conformation trait, IMHO, not a sign of deliberate abuse or bad training.

ailis36
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:07 PM
please read#204:

"sored" is illegal in the USA as of 1970, but it means applying chemicals to the horse's leg so it burns and the horse moves with more action to the gaits. Used primarily in 3 and 5 gaited classes (tennessee walkers, saddlebreds type of thing).

or search google: SORED is a real term as is and USA horses are protected as of 1970.


I source English dictionaries, and the the word "sored" is an American term......and in the history of the English language, 40 or so years is a short period of time.

Tonja
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:08 PM
P.R.E. wrote:

I asked, because after reading your postings, I was impressed with your knowledge and how strongly you critisize other professionals, so I visited you website and found out that you are a western, hunters and dressage trainer. This impressed me even more, because I had to stop completely my jumper career in order to focus in dressage. You in the other hand are an expert in all 3, I am really impressed, you must be super-talented. What is your secret?

P.D. There is a couple pictures in the website of someone riding in a dressage saddle and really leaning forward, I imagine that is a picture of one of your students and not of someone of your quality and vast knowledge.

Thank you P.R.E. for your compliments. My secret is that many of the dressage principles improve the quality of the other disciplines (but that’s my secret shh! ;) ).

Yes, the one picture of a rider leaning forward is a little girl. I am in another photograph leaning forward, praising my horse at the end of a ride. However, this topic is a discussion of rollkur and not singling out individuals so let’s keep this thread on topic.

sm
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:36 PM
Just to point out I know of a usdf "R" judge who competes in dressage, and also competed at the last two Single Pony Driving World Championships on the USET team. She did show her morgan pony stallion (who competed driving representing the USET) also in mounted dressage classes. Oh, she's also a driving judge.

So there is the ability to cross train with the same horse, and there's the ability to do well as a person in two disciplines. She felt the mounted dressage really helped the driving dressage phase as well as the driving marathon phase for her stallion, it does makes sense...

Anyway she is in the process of training from scratch a beautiful Hanoverian just two weeks under saddle (bought as a baby, she is bringing him along) and she has trained horses to GP Dressage in the past. So cross training and working professionally in two disciplines works for her.

...And now, back to the regularly scheduled program....

mbm
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:41 PM
sabyrant - i have to admit that i am confused about your training methods.... at first it sounded like you were advocating deep for babies and then it sounded like you used fdo for babies.....

it would be really beneficial for this discussion if you could post pictures of what you are talking about.....

Ghazzu
Jun. 6, 2006, 02:54 PM
Just to point out I know of a usdf "R" judge who competes in dressage, and also competed at the last two Single Pony Driving World Championships on the USET team. She did show her morgan pony stallion (who competed driving representing the USET) also in mounted dressage classes. Oh, she's also a driving judge.

So there is the ability to cross train with the same horse, and there's the ability to do well as a person in two disciplines.

..

And then there's Karen Stives, who had to make the decision on whtether to compete in the 3 day or in dressage for the LA Olympic Games...

P.R.E.
Jun. 6, 2006, 03:07 PM
Is very interesting how many people are so eager to critisize other professionals, but when they are touched, they are fast in calling "back to the topic".

There is a HUGE difference between cross-training and presenting yourself as an expert in several disciplines.

Back to the topic.

Ghazzu
Jun. 6, 2006, 03:24 PM
Is very interesting how many people are so eager to critisize other professionals, but when they are touched, they are fast in calling "back to the topic".

There is a HUGE difference between cross-training and presenting yourself as an expert in several disciplines.

Back to the topic.

Huh?
All I did was point out that one need not be acquainted solely with one equestrian discipline to be good at it.
Didn't say it wasn't fair game for discussion...

Tonja
Jun. 6, 2006, 03:31 PM
P.R.E., If you read my posts you will see that I don’t personally criticize other professionals. However, I do explain the benefits and problems with various training methods (obviously which someone uses – and that ‘someone’ may or may not happen to be a professional). These boards are for discussing dressage not for singling out individuals or engaging in flame wars so let’s stick to the topic. Although, when someone turns a discussion personal it’s usually a sign that they’ve run out of legitimate points to discuss. If you haven’t then I’ll be interested in reading them.

summerhorse
Jun. 6, 2006, 04:05 PM
I have taught classical riding and classical dressage for over 30 years and whilst many labour under the illusion that this technique is something to do with dressage, in my professional view rollkur is riding at its worst.

Classical riding is about acquiring the knowledge to tune into the horse so that his natural grandeur and abilities are freed up and maximised. This has got nothing to do with that whatsoever!

This forced and incorrect way of riding will impair the horse's movement and athletic ability and can do much damage both physically and mentally. Practised over a period of time, it generally leads to unsoundness and back pain for the horse.

It places immeasurable strain on joints, muscles and ligaments. A rigid insistence on fixing/forcing a false outline from an early age, plays havoc with the horse's back and central nervous system.

Too often this sort of work results in quantities of confused, damaged and stressed horses, those that become hysterical and dangerous, being quickly sidelined. It's the few brave survivors, who by their stoicism do the greatest damage to their fellows, for it is they who unwittingly have to fly the flag for the latest fad and fashion. "You see my trainer's method really works!" boasts the winning owner, blithely ignoring the consequences on their horse and all the associated problems that go with it.

I'm sick to death of reading about rollkur and how its correct and I'm sick to death of reading why dressage horses can't go out in fields in herds and why they are unpredictable and bad mannered because they are a high level competition horse.

Its bad for horses, its bad for dressage and its time it was outed! And if a rollkur fan appears on here watch out!


I so agree!

I see a lot of unhappy horses on that page and riders (that no I don't know from Adam and could care less) who are taking shortcuts so they don't have to spend the time really TRAINING their horses. (Isn't that what dressage is supposed to be? Training?)

I realize too that such "practices" are not confined to dressage by a long shot. that doesn't make it right though.

When I got my first show horse he had been trained that way (and this was well a LOONG time ago) and it took years to get him to even come close to accepting the bit (instead of fighting it or holding it or snatching every few strides). Then I had the opportunity to ride a (little morgan no less) that had been properly trained and it was a JOY! She worked so well off your legs, the better your legs were the better her head position was and she was light as air in your hands. AND happy and comfortable. It was amazing. Kind of a lightbulb moment there, so THAT is how it is supposed to be.

I don't see the difference in what these riders do and the (equally deplorable to me) practice of many western riders of tying their horses heads to their chests or around to their side (by tying to the saddle) and leaving them. At least those horses aren't having to move around! Neither "practice" teaches the horse a dang thing though. Except perhaps resentment.

Either way that certainly is not how I learned dressage and not something I'd want a part of.

snoopy
Jun. 6, 2006, 06:42 PM
And then there's Karen Stives, who had to make the decision on whtether to compete in the 3 day or in dressage for the LA Olympic Games...


What a great choice she made....Team gold and Individual silver. Ben Aurther was just too too impressive.

Sorry about the change in topic...now back to the bitching:p

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:07 PM
So, which is it?

The horse is being "sored" (like some other posters, I know this word in connection with gaited horses):




Or it is being trained incorrectly?



Kind of a big difference between those statements. One implies deliberate, intentional abuse of the horse. The other statement implies (in your opinion) incomplete or uneducated training.

Personally...I don't comprehend your big hangup on dips before withers. Have you been around many TBs? It is a conformation trait, IMHO, not a sign of deliberate abuse or bad training.

It means the same thing. If the muscles in front of the wither are not the widest part of the horses neck, developed and stablized, the horse is stepping from behind into the mid-neck, third/fourth verdebra from his poll and into the riders hand. A whole section of his neck (the place where he should be stepping into) has been left out! That causes instability throughout the horses body and causes pain and distress in aany number of places...neck, back, hocks.

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:19 PM
sabyrant - i have to admit that i am confused about your training methods.... at first it sounded like you were advocating deep for babies and then it sounded like you used fdo for babies.....

it would be really beneficial for this discussion if you could post pictures of what you are talking about.....


In Karoline's site (I think it is close to the bottom of her site) there are two gray horses depicting what Karoline calls f/d/o. To me, it looks awesome...forward and down. I ride a horse in this frame for 3 to 6 months, depending on the nature of the horses conformation, if he has been ill-muscled (takes the whole 6 months) or whatever. It gives him a base top line of muscles. If I had it my way, every training level horse would, in the test, be in this frame. To me it is the beginning of all riding not just dressage. You are building a place for yourself to sit so that the horse does not suffer for it.

Ghazzu
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:25 PM
It means the same thing. If the muscles in front of the wither are not the widest part of the horses neck, developed and stablized, the horse is stepping from behind into the mid-neck, third/fourth verdebra from his poll and into the riders hand. A whole section of his neck (the place where he should be stepping into) has been left out! That causes instability throughout the horses body and causes pain and distress in aany number of places...neck, back, hocks.

What exactly do you mean by this phrase?

"stepping from behind into the mid-neck, third/fourth verdebra from his poll and into the riders hand. A whole section of his neck (the place where he should be stepping into) has been left out!"

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:25 PM
sorry, I meant to post more but it posted on it's own before I was finished. To continue, then if you go to Tonja's site and look at the section about forward and down, just below the the horses with the waiter along side of them, there are three illustrations of horses in a row. I really like the frame of the middle horse. that is the frame I work towards over the next six months until the horse is supple to this frame. .

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:29 PM
It did it again, I must have a ghost aboard here! This is where you can ask the horse to supple his poll and jaw and the hind to come more through and stepping into the muscles in front of the wither. It must be trained with lightness in the bridle at all times otherwise the horse gets on FH and deep gets the bad rap/rep.

DressageGuy
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:34 PM
I've never seen anyone so hung up on one little muscle group before. You sound like a broken record. Again, I go back to Thoroughbreds. A lot of them have that dip as a conformational trait, REGARDLESS of how they're trained. Quit trying to use this one tiny piece of the puzzle to justify yourself.

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:35 PM
I mean that unless the horse is stepping into the muscles in front of the wither, he basically, is not stepping through. He has no base of support up front to step through too, because that very important part of the neck has been left out of the equation.

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:36 PM
did you donate to Morris Foundation??

sabryant
Jun. 6, 2006, 11:38 PM
DG, you missed the whole point...those muscles are the front section of the bridge of muscles that need to be developed in order to do proper dressage!

lukas1987
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:30 AM
Sabryant: I just wanted to commend you on your excellent descriptions and effort in explaining one of the most important concepts of training and developing horses. I remember first hearing about the muscles in front of the withers at a clinic with Felicitas von Neumann-Cosel in 1985, but really learned how to ride and train for it when I was a working student in Belgium. The results of strenghtening them and yes "fixing them at the withers" are unbelievable. I have also trained TBs so that the infamous dip is gone, but it takes time and patience; however, the results are well worth the time spent. The strengthening and rounding of these muscle really frees up the shoulders on the horse. Anyway I have appreciated your posts very much.

sabryant
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:14 AM
Lukas1987

I don't know ya, but I love ya! Thanks!!

Sabine
Jun. 7, 2006, 02:41 AM
I have intentionally stayed out of this mess- because the whole thread was a no- win situation. The photographs are difficult to judge and clearly very disgusting. If taken out of context- maybe explainable- but by and large hard to digest.
Point taken.
I would Like to commend Sabryant for fighting a very uphill battle with lots of good knowledge and pointers to those who really ride and listen.
I would like to comment PrE and CLAire and SM for support and/or asking quality questions and being 'professional' in the interaction. This is about real training and real riding.
I have stayed out of this debate intentionally and don't want to get involved- only to acknowledge Sabryants effort and courage to withstand...if any of you have any balls go to TOB and see how one sided debate is over there- if you kill the opposite - you have no debate :(

Maybe some knowledge has transpired after this- I sure hope so- for SAB's sake.
Good Riding and TRaining to you all!

workinggirl
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:03 AM
What's up with that!!! Did you ever go to a western show- yikes! Those horses go through some tough training methods also. Give me a hunter baby!!

Ghazzu
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:26 AM
I mean that unless the horse is stepping into the muscles in front of the wither, he basically, is not stepping through. He has no base of support up front to step through too, because that very important part of the neck has been left out of the equation.

You keep repeating the phrase, not explaining it. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, I really don't understand what you mean by this.
How is he "stepping through" his neck ? What does that *mean*?

Tonja
Jun. 7, 2006, 09:55 AM
The correct muscling and stability of the horse’s neck comes from the horse reaching for contact which is generated by the haunches when they are working correctly. Contorting and bending the horse’s neck off behind the vertical not only kills the reaching gesture, it weakens and destabilizes the base of the horse’s neck, so much so that the horse can’t balance its poll and neck up over its shoulders so that the haunches can more easily lift the mass of the forehand. When the horse is behind the vertical the thrusting of the hind legs can’t travel from the hind legs, through the spine to the poll. It only gets as far as the point where the vertebra in the neck are ‘broken’. After that, the energy is stifled by the head and remaining neck that are hanging downward heavily off the front of the horse.

Janet
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:05 AM
stepping into the muscles in front of the wither, Sounds like "yoga for horses"!!

slc2
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:33 AM
what sabryant is saying comes straight from reiner klimke, and is absolutely fundamental. the complaints about 'harping' on that muscle group - oh boy...what can i say. nothing, really. they are the base of collection; the base of the neck is the base of collection. it is not 'being obsessed' or 'harping on it'. it really is fundamental.

SGray
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:56 AM
It means the same thing. If the muscles in front of the wither are not the widest part of the horses neck, developed and stablized, the horse is stepping from behind into the mid-neck, third/fourth verdebra from his poll and into the riders hand. A whole section of his neck (the place where he should be stepping into) has been left out! That causes instability throughout the horses body and causes pain and distress in aany number of places...neck, back, hocks.

a horse's neck should not be shaped like an isosceles triangle

PineTreeFarm
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:15 AM
It means the same thing. If the muscles in front of the wither are not the widest part of the horses neck, developed and stablized, the horse is stepping from behind into the mid-neck, third/fourth verdebra from his poll and into the riders hand. A whole section of his neck (the place where he should be stepping into) has been left out! That causes instability throughout the horses body and causes pain and distress in aany number of places...neck, back, hocks.

I really don't understand this. I've had several hunters/jumpers with the 'dip'. No 'instability...pain and distress'.
So maybe I should infer that this conformational issue only comes into play if the horse is doing dressage???
And if that is true we could have a fun thread about unnatural carraige of the head and neck.

sm
Jun. 7, 2006, 11:21 AM
I understand sabryant's point on building muscle there. Perhaps it goes too far to state pain and distress ALWAYS but perhaps to get the point across that hard work with muscles not built up here will cause discomfort and unnecessary stress in regard to correct upper level dressage work.


We don't always agree sabryant (btw, I don't rank agreeing with me too high on the list of one's desirable qualities), but I appreciate your thorough answers and keeping the discussion on an appropriate/professional level.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:05 PM
many horses have such conformation that they will always have a dip in front of withers, hunters as well as dressage horses.

it is not true that even the correctest riding can ALWAYS cover that conformation. correct riding should improve the topline generally, and develop muscles, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

i also don't agree w/ sabryant on one point, i don't believe not being ridden or trained absolutely correctly necessarily causes a horse pain in every case for every kind of incorrectness, and i don't think that every person who doesn't know exactly how to ride dressage perfectly is torturing their horse. if that was the case then the 99 percent of horses, which is about the % that have some sort of incorrectness in their training, would be in some sort of agonizing pain, and everyone who didn't do dressage would have horses in pain, which i think is just the teeniest bit of dressage fanaticism. one doesn't have to school dressage to have a pain free horse, one doesn't even need to school totally perfectly to have a pain free horse. just as every little error a parent makes isn't going to cause their kid to turn into a raving serial killer. one only needs to be 'good enough' to prevent causing the animal pain.

in the past, every form of riding from western pleasure to gaited to reining to dressage (classical, poll highest) has been targeted as 'cruel' and 'painful'. even the spanish riding school has been accused. horses have been 'rescued' from the 'cruelty' of being 'forced to go with the poll the highest point', which in other tracts and bb's has been described as cruel torture, and equated with exaggerated driving postures and 'hold 'em and hit 'em' schools. the germans who founded the xenophon web site were at that point being called cruel torturers of horses. there were also 'expert veterinarians' called to bear witness against the classical dressage riders that this type of riding disables, forces and tortures horses.

those eventing accidents, those, those are ok on this bulletin board. they are just unfortunate byproducts of the glorious sport, and horses love to run and jump, it can't be that they are simply trained to do so, and every horse that rushes a jump 'loves to jump' because he's running at the jump, not because he is scared and wants to get it over, has never been trained or schooled to jump in a more controlled way or accept a half halt, not because his rider's position and aids makes him fall on his forehand so that the only way he can hope to manage the jump is by going faster, or simply because he's been trained to go at a certain pace after years and years of repetition, or because he's from an active breed of horse that tends to move quickly anyway.

that big strong triangle of muscles at the base of the neck does make the 'base' for collection. 'the more the flexion the less the collection' is the old saying that people screamed about here when i posted it before, but i think the anti rollkurists will eat it up now...though it doesn't mean that one never bends thru that area, but only that in suppling the neck, one has to be careful to not as a result make that area actually unstable. but supple and unstable are not synonymous.

physical.energy
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:31 PM
:rolleyes: .

sabryant
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:48 PM
slc

that may be true for your way of training but not for mine. I have made plenty of silk purses out of sow's ears. Though I heard Klimke make that statement, the way I learned about it was straight from Greta Towle and Nicole Uphoff. I would not begin upper level training with any horse until that part of the horses neck is filled in completely. I would not subject a horse or myself to the imbalances caused by the lack of those basics. This is not a quick method as the anti-rollkur advocates would have you think. It is boring, long and as lukas1987 so eloquently said, it takes time and patience.

sabryant
Jun. 7, 2006, 12:57 PM
The correct muscling and stability of the horse’s neck comes from the horse reaching for contact which is generated by the haunches when they are working correctly. Contorting and bending the horse’s neck off behind the vertical not only kills the reaching gesture, it weakens and destabilizes the base of the horse’s neck, so much so that the horse can’t balance its poll and neck up over its shoulders so that the haunches can more easily lift the mass of the forehand. When the horse is behind the vertical the thrusting of the hind legs can’t travel from the hind legs, through the spine to the poll. It only gets as far as the point where the vertebra in the neck are ‘broken’. After that, the energy is stifled by the head and remaining neck that are hanging downward heavily off the front of the horse.


In this method, you never stiffle the energy by the head nor do you let let the horses head and neck hang down HEAVILY off the front of the horse.

JSwan
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:01 PM
I'm asking. Again. Please provide photographic evidence of horses whose riders are using Rollkur - in which the horses are moving with relaxation, ease, and whose face displays no signs of stress or fear or resignation.

I have not seen any. And I took the liberty of looking all over the freakin' Internet.

Daydream Believer
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:30 PM
those eventing accidents, those, those are ok on this bulletin board. they are just unfortunate byproducts of the glorious sport, and horses love to run and jump, it can't be that they are simply trained to do so, and every horse that rushes a jump 'loves to jump' because he's running at the jump, not because he is scared and wants to get it over, has never been trained or schooled to jump in a more controlled way or accept a half halt, not because his rider's position and aids makes him fall on his forehand so that the only way he can hope to manage the jump is by going faster, or simply because he's been trained to go at a certain pace after years and years of repetition, or because he's from an active breed of horse that tends to move quickly anyway.



You were doing good until you said this IMO. Speaking from experience of many years of riding eventers and being involved in the sport...you cannot say that theses horses only seem eager to jump from bad riding, poor schooling, breeding, or whatever. That's pretty absurd. Eventers are some of the most capable riders I know and at the upper levels in particular, I am in awe of these riders. Trust me in that they are not getting too far forward and causing their horses to rush...they'd not make it past the first three jumps at that level. No horse would make it past training/prelim either with a fear issue.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2006, 01:41 PM
another case where i'm a good girl when i agree with you. wow. since when is that the standard? what a world you must live in.

not only that, but you only read a part, and from there then decided i was 'good' only while i agreed with you according to the part you read, not to what i wrote. wow. is the entire world judged by whether they agree with you or not? why don't you just publish a list and just shorten the whole process, so we don't have to guess when we are 'good' or wait for you to tell us.

i said: or because they have simply been schooled to jump at that pace during years of repetition and training. the skilled rider has schooled his horse to jump at the pace he jumps, he goes forward because he has been trained to do this. he does the work because he has been well trained. i seriously doubt the event horse of the top riders simply chooses whatever pace he goes at. last time i checked, the rider set the pace re conditions, course, horse fitness, etc.

sm
Jun. 7, 2006, 02:00 PM
Post 246: "In this method, you never stiffle the energy by the head nor do you let let the horses head and neck hang down HEAVILY off the front of the horse."

But isn't this the result of most all BTV (except the most mild BTV), including all the way to the severe RK. As per the photos on the OP.

Tonja
Jun. 7, 2006, 02:03 PM
Sabryant wrote:

In this method, you never stiffle the energy by the head nor do you let let the horses head and neck hang down HEAVILY off the front of the horse.

The energy is automatically stifled and the horse’s head and neck hang down heavily off the front of the horse as a natural byproduct of the horse’s btv position. The rider may not be able to feel this weight in the hand but the broken end of the balancing rod heavily impacts the horse’s way of going. The broken end becomes dead weight that only contributes to the horse’s imbalance.

Daydream Believer
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:06 PM
another case where i'm a good girl when i agree with you. wow. since when is that the standard? what a world you must live in.

not only that, but you only read a part, and from there then decided i was 'good' only while i agreed with you according to the part you read, not to what i wrote. wow. is the entire world judged by whether they agree with you or not? why don't you just publish a list and just shorten the whole process, so we don't have to guess when we are 'good' or wait for you to tell us.



Get over it. I merely disagreed with that part of what you wrote and commented as such and my statement that you "did good" was to merely show that I agreed with the other part of what you said. Next time I'll just disagree with everything you say so you don't think I'm trying to flatter you or anything. :yes:

slc...I'm not even going to comment on what world you live in...;)