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TBCheval
Jun. 14, 2006, 05:49 PM
Before this discussion descends into a complete slugfest would someone please answer my question: what is the intended purpose of rollkur? Perhaps I need to rephrase it: why would someone employ the technique shown in the photos and the videos whose links were posted in this discussion? One more time: what benefit do the riders hope to gain from using rollkur, the subject of this thread? I've wondered somewhat obliquely and have subsequently asked more directly (twice) and still haven't seen an answer. And since it's gotten a little warm in here I'd also like to point out that in this post I'm trying to keep this very simple and am just asking a question, nothing more - not voicing any personal opinions on the use of the technique at this time. ;)

sm
Jun. 14, 2006, 06:07 PM
TBCheval, you asked this question a couple times now, and I'd like to know too.

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2006, 06:09 PM
TBCheval, you asked this question a couple times now, and I'd like to know too.

Me too.

lukas1987
Jun. 14, 2006, 06:41 PM
Maybe people don't answer questions because of the distortions that occur on this thread:

For example:

sabryant says:
In the beginning it takes a certain amount of strength and hard riding to explain this concept to them.
Which is then distorted into:

tonja:
To horsemen the horse’s logic is no mystery and everything from the very basic elements of training to the most advanced movements can be taught to the horse without resorting to brute force.
mbm:
im sorry, i was done for the nite but then read that some feel that they need to use brute force to train a youngster.
mzpeepers:
I was going to stay completely out of this up until I read that apparently one has to be forceful when dealing with a youngster or the stupid thing, who doesn't know what's good for him, will never learn balance.
sabryant posted in the midst of the above, but does anyone correct themselves. Of course not.
this is where things get so mixed up. Please re-read my post. there is nothing about it that talks about "brute force." And I said that it takes a certain amount of strength in the BEGINNING...not yelling, rather emphasizing that over time your aids get lighter and lighter and more refined as the horse develops the proper carriage.

And yes she is correct, it does take strength on the rider's part (not against the horse or forcing the horse) to help support the horse in the beginning because self-carriage comes from proper muscling, which takes time to develop.

As far as whatever one hopes to accomplish with RK, I think canyonoak's explanation (near the bottom of the post) answers the question the best. I'm not saying that anyone has to agree with it, but it is the best answer I've seen so far without any emotion attached to it.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=1638774&postcount=87

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2006, 07:04 PM
"In the beginning it takes a certain amount of strength and hard riding to explain this concept to them."

Hmmm - I seem to be able to manage to struggle through training my horses without hard riding and strength. I'm not into the whole domination thing - you ask, you get. You give, you receive.

Actually, quite polite an interaction. Besides - I thought the same person posted that rollkur was developed because women were WEAK.

I think they need a huddle to get the stories straight - because I'm just getting too many contradictory posts to justify Rollkur - and I actually can't help but poke holes at them. Although thankfully, at least for the moment - no one is quoting the dead white guys.

lukas1987
Jun. 14, 2006, 07:14 PM
J Swan: Thank you for proving my point with your inane response.

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 14, 2006, 07:14 PM
TBCheval-The only thing I can see that it seems to accomplish is like when hitting oneself in the head with a hammer-it feels good when you stop.

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 07:14 PM
I think it answers alot. Anky is winning, that seems to be her answer to it all, So it must be cool! There is the quality of the person who has been conversing on this thread! Nuff said! Thats our answer, right or wrong, shes winning! :eek: :no: :no: :no:

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 08:48 PM
Thanks lukas1987 for trying to make an explanation. I'm afraid it is useless here. If these people had any kind of foundation in dressage, I am sure their responses would be different. "That being said," their deprecating answers gives way to, not only their lack of knowledge, but their lack of manners and the way they were raised...speaking of the quality persons that have been posting on this thread!

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:02 PM
mbm

I'm not going to give you anymore examples because you, obviously, cannot comprehend what I say but rather twist it into something I did not say at all. Besides, this thread is not about me. It is, mostly, about what you and Jswan think in your self-serving ways and, oh, we love horses and you don't, when in fact from sounds of your posts, you are nothing but a pair of Harry Hall breeches and a text book. The fact remains that neither one of you are winning any gold medals. Anky is dispite, the U.S constitution, RK, anti-RK, deep, or creep shows. You know it all! Your spittling, barfing and mis-quotes tell me a lot about the way you debate! It is rather like debating with third graders. Rant on!
I think this paragraph of yours sums up what you are about.. Winning medals. So thats what Dressage is all about to you, I gather. And we know nothing of the foundations of Dressage! :no: Well if thats how to win Medals then the sport has seriously gone to hell in a hand basket. Fortunatly there are many folks here in the US, that will not condone that method, and like other things, it will dissapear, its a fad right now, but will never been see as true Dressage.

trailblazzer
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:05 PM
Anky wins gold medals for being the world's worst horsewoman. Whoop-dee-doo. I'm soooo jealous...:rolleyes:

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:06 PM
Pardon me?

I have a very sound foundation in dressage, thank you very much.

My god you are rude. I haven't called names, or anything similar - I've simply said - this is against everything *I* have ever learned. And then to be responded to like this?

I have repeatedly tried to understand your posts, which you go back and change. It's not for lack of an understanding of dressage - it's a lack of understanding what you are saying.


In the beginning it takes a certain amount of strength and hard riding to explain this concept to them.

How is this right? To do this to a young horse? Oh my - this is SO not right. It does not take strength and hard riding. It *does* take some core strength in the body to half-halt correctly - but that's to control your own body, not anything else. There is no "hard riding" that *EVER* has to occur with a horse.

And before you call me a ringside...whatever....again (I don't own Harry Hall's either - darn it) - I have trained and retrained horses who have never needed "hard riding", and indeed have attained self-carriage despite that fact. Ho hum, I guess I, and the masters, must be wrong.

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:14 PM
Pardon me?

I have a very sound foundation in dressage, thank you very much.

My god you are rude. I haven't called names, or anything similar - I've simply said - this is against everything *I* have ever learned. And then to be responded to like this?

I have repeatedly tried to understand your posts, which you go back and change. It's not for lack of an understanding of dressage - it's a lack of understanding what you are saying.



How is this right? To do this to a young horse? Oh my - this is SO not right. It does not take strength and hard riding. It *does* take some core strength in the body to half-halt correctly - but that's to control your own body, not anything else. There is no "hard riding" that *EVER* has to occur with a horse.

And before you call me a ringside...whatever....again (I don't own Harry Hall's either - darn it) - I have trained and retrained horses who have never needed "hard riding", and indeed have attained self-carriage despite that fact. Ho hum, I guess I, and the masters, must be wrong.
Since they will give us no explanation as to why this warmup method is right and what it produces in the ring, they have resorted to mudslinging.
Why do you suppose these folks will not tell us why (other than winning medals) they think this method is OK and correct??
Oh I dont have any Harry Halls either! Never liked them..

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:16 PM
sannois

If you were riding a horse like Salinero with your lighter than light aids, I dare say, you would be in hell in a hand basket. Well, now that I think about it, I take that back, you would probably be in a body brace!

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:20 PM
J Swan: Thank you for proving my point with your inane response.

Because I think the sabryant is not a credible source of information - whether it be about horses or history? I'm still reeling from the woman's suffrage/FEI connection - that blew my mind. That was worthy of a Dan Brown novel. Nope - absolutely no credibility.

sabryant - I have an excellent foundation in dressage, thank you very much.

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:21 PM
sannois

If you were riding a horse like Salinero with your lighter than light aids, I dare say, you would be in hell in a hand basket. Well, now that I think about it, I take that back, you would probably be in a body brace!
And how is that an answer to my question. Are you saying this horse is so rank, that he needs this brute force to be ridden with some semblance of sanity? Hmmm.
For the record, if one of my horses were like that I would surely know I had failed in the training of him or her.
Even the biggest strongest horse is able to be trained properly and eventually use the lightest of aides, Which .. Gee I thought that was the goal of Dressage! :confused:

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:22 PM
and ditto to you Oakesbrae!

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:26 PM
Can you please quote me once where I was rude???

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:26 PM
If you would get over yourself Jswan, the point I was trying to make about womens suffrage was in the fact that men have ruled this sport of dressage since forever. Now it is, almost, completely women who drive this sport. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:28 PM
Why do you feel it's a big difference? I think that's the part that us peons apparently aren't getting...I believe you said something about strength...

trailblazzer
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:32 PM
If you would get over yourself Jswan, the point I was trying to make about womens suffrage was in the fact that men have ruled this sport of dressage since forever. Now it is, almost, completely women who drive this sport. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!
The beauty of dressage is that there IS NO DIFFERENCE!

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:34 PM
I'M NOT ANSWERING ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS FOR THE REASONS STATED ABOVE. YOUR RESPONSES DON'T WARRANT ANSWERS RATHER THEY ARE "SPIT AND VOMIT" IN YOUR FACE IMPULSIVE REACTIONS WITH NO THOUGHT PROCESS BEHIND THEM WHAT SO EVER!

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:37 PM
Um, no - I was asking what it was that you meant by that. There was no spit and vomit. If you didn't mean that it was because women needed to use brute force, then I certainly apologize - go ahead and explain what you *did* mean.

You certainly are getting very worked up about this, and that's unfortunate - I am truly asking for clarification because I'm not getting what you are saying.

My goodness, chill out - it's not healthy to shout like that.

trailblazzer
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:37 PM
I'M NOT ANSWERING ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS FOR THE REASONS STATED ABOVE. YOUR RESPONSES DON'T WARRANT ANSWERS RATHER THEY ARE "SPIT AND VOMIT" IN YOUR FACE IMPULSIVE REACTIONS WITH NO THOUGHT PROCESS BEHIND THEM WHAT SO EVER!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:39 PM
I should add, if I wanted to do "spit and vomit" in your face impulsive responses, I *certainly* would not be asking for clarification. I believe I'd be making other comments entirely.

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:42 PM
If you would get over yourself Jswan, the point I was trying to make about womens suffrage was in the fact that men have ruled this sport of dressage since forever. Now it is, almost, completely women who drive this sport. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!


No - the point you were trying to make was about the FEI's formation in the 20's and it's correlation to woman's suffrage in the US - and then said something justifying the use of force by women because men had formed the sport but it was now dominated by women and we were weaker. When another poster commented that women didn't receive the vote in Switzerland until 1971 - you were silent.

Women dominate other sports too - heck - more and more women are foxhunting than ever before - women dominate eventing too. And if ever strength was required - it would be in those two sports. But women manage to struggle through them - somehow - without rollkur.

And geez - somehow, being "weaker", I managed to subdue very large angry drunken GI's when I was an MP in the Army - and I never drew my weapon.

I think what I'm hearing from you is that you're somehow really upset that I find you completely lacking in credibility as a horseman. I think that's the risk one takes when participating in these things - but you really need to just deal with it and not whine when you don't get your way. Besides - this thread is about Rollkur - not about you.

mzpeepers
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:43 PM
If you would get over yourself Jswan, the point I was trying to make about womens suffrage was in the fact that men have ruled this sport of dressage since forever. Now it is, almost, completely women who drive this sport. BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

And what does that have to do with the price of apples? Has dressage suddenly become an excuse for a feminist stand? When I was out there burning the bra I didn't think about it, silly me. And how is that going to explain a method about which all questions have so far gone unanswered?

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:53 PM
Jswan

Why would I ever care what you thought of me??? Truth is, I couldn't care less!

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 09:58 PM
Then tell me why you are getting so upset when people are asking you questions?

The questions that I have seen asked (not all that I have asked) that have gone unanswered are:

1) Have you seen the videos in question?
2) What is the purpose of rollkur?
3) What being a now dominated by female sport has to do with anything?
4) Are there pictures of horses in this state (of rollkur) that look comfortable and contented? Howabout video?

Okay - now, if you consider this an affront to your personal...well, whatever...at this time - then I'm very sorry - I've been trying to make this conversation civil.

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 10:01 PM
I'M NOT ANSWERING ANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS FOR THE REASONS STATED ABOVE. YOUR RESPONSES DON'T WARRANT ANSWERS RATHER THEY ARE "SPIT AND VOMIT" IN YOUR FACE IMPULSIVE REACTIONS WITH NO THOUGHT PROCESS BEHIND THEM WHAT SO EVER!
Why are you shouting.. If you read my reply to your post to me, I asked you a very direct civilized question. Now why are you getting all hysterical???
You have yet to give any of us an answer to our questions. I dont see Spit and Vomit.. what ever that means from anyone here except you :confused:

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:20 PM
I know I know.. People in Hell want ice water. :eek:

Gaia
Jun. 15, 2006, 01:18 AM
I think (as in believe) that in the organisation of things horsey - that men are still dominating. Most riders are female, that does not mean that the "leading ladies" are.

- I am curious as to what the princess Haya is going to do!

TBCheval
Jun. 15, 2006, 04:53 AM
As far as whatever one hopes to accomplish with RK, I think canyonoak's explanation (near the bottom of the post) answers the question the best. I'm not saying that anyone has to agree with it, but it is the best answer I've seen so far without any emotion attached to it.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...4&postcount=87 (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=1638774&postcount=87)Thank you very much for this information. I do appreciate it. I'm not sure why I deserved a lecture first about distorting of other people's responses - to my knowledge I have never done so on this board - but am glad that I didn't skip your entire post because of it. Perhaps the courteous thing to do would have been to answer my question in one post and deliver the rest separately in another. But no matter ... I'm grateful that someone has answered my question.

TBCheval
Jun. 15, 2006, 05:18 AM
Thanks lukas1987 for trying to make an explanation. I'm afraid it is useless here. If these people had any kind of foundation in dressage, I am sure their responses would be different. "That being said," their deprecating answers gives way to, not only their lack of knowledge, but their lack of manners and the way they were raised...speaking of the quality persons that have been posting on this thread!Excuse me? "These people?" I have been wading through this thread because I would like to learn something. There have been heated and purely emotional responses on both sides. But for some reason the few thoughtful, dispassionate responses in this thread that have discussed in detail the horse's movement and the effects rollkur appears to have on the horse's mental and physical form have all been from one side. lukas1987 had to go to another thread altogether to find a thoughtful and reasoned discussion of rollkur's purpose in dressage. Now that I have read it I may have a few more more questions but I'm tempted to start a new thread to ask them.

Noir
Jun. 15, 2006, 05:26 AM
This is what has been missing until now. I may not agree, but it does show the ideas and thought process behind the technique, (spiced up with some rude remarks, but hey, it's the COTH). I hope that these ideas also go back to the source, and I guess it does (Did you train with Anky and Sjef?). It would however be very nice to read this in an edited article of length, which is what I've wanted to read for years. Would that even be possible? Or is this the unfortunate "cat out of the bag" that no rollkur-proponents really wanted outed?

Theresa

sm
Jun. 15, 2006, 07:47 AM
I read the link to CanyonOak but still don't know WHY the horse is kept bent at the 3/4th vertebrae and WHY the impure unbalanced gaits during competition -- both the result of Rollkur. These are all good questions, that somehow are continuously ducked:

__________________

OakesBrae wrote #538: Then tell me why you are getting so upset when people are asking you questions?

The questions that I have seen asked (not all that I have asked) that have gone unanswered are:

1) Have you seen the videos in question?
2) What is the purpose of rollkur?
3) What being a now dominated by female sport has to do with anything?
4) Are there pictures of horses in this state (of rollkur) that look comfortable and contented? Howabout video?

Okay - now, if you consider this an affront to your personal...well, whatever...at this time - then I'm very sorry - I've been trying to make this conversation civil.
__________________

EDITED TO ADD: From CanyonOak's link, "The rider has to really have swinging hips, a lot of core strength, excellent timing, and a real undertsanding of half-halt forward to use rollkur. It is NOT a position, it is an extreme gymnastic flexion. THAT is what is meant by the concept that the technique is only for experienced riders. I hardly need the fingers of both hands to see riders who truly understand and use half-halt forward."

To CanyonOak's "It is NOT a Position " -- have you seen the videos (question 1 and 4 above)? It most certianly is a position. Again, why RK -- WHY is the horse kept bent at the 3/4th vertebrae and WHY the impure unbalanced gaits during competition?

JSwan
Jun. 15, 2006, 07:52 AM
I also thought canyonoaks post to be the most thoughtful on the subject - but I don't think that what we're seeing is 1) what she was referring to and 2) worthy of being called correct dressage.

And I think that this method will become de rigeur in the lower levels and all too soon we'll be seeing local schooling shows full of crank and spank riders with miserable horses trying to emulate what they don't understand. And worse - judges rewarding it. In the end - that it what concerns me.

Cavelletti and long lining just aren't as sexy as what is in those videos - and it seems that it's just another way of taking a shortcut in the training of horses.

And sabryant - I think you best put me on your ignore list before you have a stroke. Lots of people lack credibility with other people - it's normal - watch the evening news for proof.

I'm the one who wanted to see relaxed forward horses undergoing rollkur - and though a poster kindly sent me to the wonderful site of a professional photographer - unfortunately all I saw was a 'suitable for framing" version of the type of work evidenced in these videos. Sorry - didn't cut it. Horse was still tense - still cranked - still no relief.

I owe y'all some thanks though - because I'm attending a dressage clinic on Saturday - and I think we are going to have some extraordinarily interesting discussions about rollkur. I'll post pro and con thoughts afterwards if anyone is interested. And I'll venture out on a limb to say that the clininician as well as the attendees have a good foundation in dressage - especially since this clinic is for upper level riders.

sm
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:02 AM
not to throw a curve JSwan, but I added a section in my above post, EDITED TO ADD...

JSwan
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:21 AM
Nah -it just doesn't add up - there just isn't a set definition, and there are too many people saying x is rollkur, then another one saying y is rollkur, canyonoaks post was thoughtful but ya know - what she described is not what we're seeing. She's saying it's not a position - but what we're seeing is an artificial position, enforced by excessive use of the curb, and held for extended periods of time. So that's where canyonoak and I diverge, I guess.

I'll tell you something else - the FEI has stated that its use should be in the upper levels (I'm paraphrasing) - but exactly when would a rider abandon basic classical prinicples and start this method?

I mean - does the rider say - wow - my horse is now at xth level - now let's just throw all that out the window and start rollkur? Or does the rider have a finished quality dressage horse and start with a new trainer to do rollkur - because tried and true methods that do not involve force just don't result in the horse being flexible? With that logic - rollkur would be part of the foundation - one of the building blocks of dressage in the young horse - so that when it reached the upper levels - the flexibility and gaits would be polished and perfected and rollkur would NOT be appropriate - and if stretching was needed as part of the warm up - the horse would reach and stretch without the rider hauling back on the curb like they're waterskiiing.

sm
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:32 AM
Are you looking for reality? The answer is RK would be put on the horse pretty darn quick if you have a Resale Project: no real training but the RK frame is there so you can get $10,000.00 more for the horse. All you need after the "broken neck" frame up front is a good set of spurs, and voila, you have Dressage Horse:


"I mean - does the rider say - wow - my horse is now at xth level - now let's just throw all that out the window and start rollkur? Or does the rider have a finished quality dressage horse and start with a new trainer to do rollkur - because tried and true methods that do not involve force just don't result in the horse being flexible? With that logic - rollkur would be part of the foundation - one of the building blocks of dressage in the young horse - so that when it reached the upper levels - the flexibility and gaits would be polished and perfected and rollkur would NOT be appropriate - and if stretching was needed as part of the warm up - the horse would reach and stretch without the rider hauling back on the curb like they're waterskiiing."

lstevenson
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:36 AM
All you need after the "broken neck" frame up front is a good set of spurs, and voila, you have Dressage Horse



:yes:

JSwan
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:37 AM
Are you looking for reality? The answer is RK would be put on the horse pretty darn quick if you have a Resale Project: no real training but the RK frame is there so you can get $10,000.00 more for the horse. All you need after the "broken neck" frame up front is a good set of spurs, and voila, you have Dressage Horse:


Duh (smacking my head) - yup. You're right. Seen that with "proven foxhunter" sales too - the horse went out a couple of times with the seller and because it managed not to kick a hound or lose its mind - it's a "foxhunter" along with the extra 0's in front of the decimal.

All form - no substance, in other words.

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:38 AM
Are you looking for reality? The answer is RK would be put on the horse pretty darn quick if you have a Resale Project: no real training but the RK frame is there so you can get $10,000.00 more for the horse. All you need after the "broken neck" frame up front is a good set of spurs, and voila, you have Dressage Horse:


"I mean - does the rider say - wow - my horse is now at xth level - now let's just throw all that out the window and start rollkur? Or does the rider have a finished quality dressage horse and start with a new trainer to do rollkur - because tried and true methods that do not involve force just don't result in the horse being flexible? With that logic - rollkur would be part of the foundation - one of the building blocks of dressage in the young horse - so that when it reached the upper levels - the flexibility and gaits would be polished and perfected and rollkur would NOT be appropriate - and if stretching was needed as part of the warm up - the horse would reach and stretch without the rider hauling back on the curb like they're waterskiiing."
You hit the nail on the head SM!!:eek:

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:45 AM
I just went to Youtube, and viewed the first Hyperflexioin Video. It is very plainly Anky. What I want to know, is What is with the Bursts of movement, The horse looks to spurt forward then back to .. I dont know is that a Trot, Passage what?? And the extensions??? Thats an extension.. The horses head is so curled up. How can he possible do a decent extension.. Also what is with the Cantering a few steps behind.. its a shuffled movement, After she goes partway across the diagonal. ITs like confusion on the horses part. Very hurried, and unsure, or trying to comply with what he is being asked in light of the position of his head and neck.
OK So please explain, How does that warm up she is doing translate into the ride in the ring. I am asking a sincere question. What will that warm up result in during the test??
Anyone?? ITs a simple question!!!

sm
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:53 AM
Well, Pro Rollkurs, do you have a better a better answer than post #551: WHY the horse is kept bent at the 3/4th vertebrae and WHY the impure unbalanced gaits during competition -- both the result of Rollkur.

Shame on you, and all the while the feedback was we were too dumb to understand RK as the nuances of REAL dressage. (At the same time however, neither do the masters of any dressage school).

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:11 AM
Well, Pro Rollkurs, do you have a better a better answer than post #551: WHY the horse is kept bent at the 3/4th vertebrae and WHY the impure unbalanced gaits during competition -- both the result of Rollkur.

Shame on you, and all the while the feedback was we were too dumb to understand RK as the nuances of REAL dressage. (At the same time however, neither do the masters of any dressage school).
Oh and while we are at it.. could you answer my question in the above post???:eek:

ideayoda
Jun. 15, 2006, 10:31 AM
The questions that I have seen asked (not all that I have asked) that have gone unanswered are:
1) Have you seen the videos in question? Yes, and in person, and by other top people who used it (differently...ie uphoff)
2) What is the purpose of rollkur? According to the urban legand created by Christine Theis to release the back (does it?) and according to uphoff (for control and domination because she is weak).
3) What being a now dominated by female sport has to do with anything? Supposedly because woman are weaker in their seats than men they cannot ride HH as effectively (according to uphoff), so this does the same thing. I fail to see how this does the same thing as a well timed (which is really the essence of the entire thing anyway) half halt does. THe hindlegs are not compressing in rollkur, in fact they are straightening and the croup does higher as the neck lowers. Look at the one video of 'extension', lovely flayling in RK but not even tracking up.
4) Are there pictures of horses in this state (of rollkur) that look comfortable and contented? Howabout video? The connection and bearing is imposed upon them just as a horse who is afraid of the bit by too strong half halts. How can a horse out of balance (ie neck/balancing rod is dropped forward and down) not have tension? At least with Uphoff the horse was not over-tempo but still the gaits are impure gaits. Last of all how can training out of balance, downhill, over tempo, without lateral flexability throughout the body (not just neck manipulation laterally) create a correct balance in the end.

The job of the rider is to make any horse an easy ride. What makes a difficult horse in the first place? Either pain somewhere in the body or poor/quick/mistimed/etc training.

If one rides a rollkured horse they are quite often difficult to sit (unless they are over tempo). If they are over tempo they cannot be laterally flexible nor uphill in their balance, their piaffes are high stomping with excessively lifted hindlegs (because of the balance against their forelegs from their training balance, it does not change when they come up.

"If rollkur results in mostly tense horses--whcih no rider enjoys riding-- then more and more trainers/riders will not use the technique. " I disagree with this statement. People follow a winner, not matter what because many do not have solid theory upon which to stand, and judges ignore the signposts of lack of balance in favor of error free tests. Look at the square saddle pad that everyone (even hunters use), copied from someone who didnt want sweat on his frock coat.

"If the arguments are that a spectator feels that the technique is unncessarily abusive, then a problem arises: because not only did the recent FEI workshop not come up with any proof....." From talking with people/vets who have studied it (not intentionally) there is alot to be carefully considered. But given who the 'fei' was at the meeting, what other take would you have? THe fox controls the henhouse. How conveneient.

"The reason that rollkur is attracting so much attention NOW is, simply, because of the internet." Absolutely untrue. This discussion was extremely heated around Uphoff, and then it sort of faded away (what I thought was a red herring to the rest of the world)....until SK gave it rebirth.

"Dressage used to be a tiny, elitist world, where everyone knew everyone else, knew exactly what they each were doing, and who had coffee with cream in the morning." Perhaps the best did, but many more people rode, because they had to (horses we facts of life). Those who were the best had spent a lifetime perfecting nuances of balance and technique. Now a lifetime is a couple of years (if we are to follow the rise of SJ).

'WHY WHY are people so fascinated with one stupid technique that has been around for as long as people have sat on horses?' Because it goes against the physics of developing purity gaits/uphill balance/proper use of bits/the very nature of the horse and in general the rules which are are supposed to be following. It produces a characture of them.

The argument is made that it is ok because there have always been agressive uses in riding. Well THAT is not ok either. Strength/abuse/manipulation occur when the rider is frustrated about not being heard by the horse. Well then analytical skills are needed about how to change something rather than victimize the horse because of lack of timing/balance on our part/whatever. Of course that makes the rider responsible rather than the horse, so it is easier to blame the horse. Add to the mix that we breed more sensative horses of natural balance and then wonder why they are more quick to 'fire up'. Thats the good news and the bad news, modulate the aids and they trust, push on and we get the extreme flinging of the extremities which is so popular to the average public.

People understand what they are educated to understand. The average level of understanding the horses body/movement/affect of the riders seat and timing is lacking. They are easily overwhelmed by flash. ie The first time anyone sees piaffe its pretty, then the learning curve comes. I have yet to see anyone who thinks that rk is pretty, or has nuance and tact.

What is rollkur and why is it different from deep?

"lets define rollkur as manipulating the head/neck aka the balancing rod of the horse. When one correctly manipulates this front end, one can ask the horse to pay attention and focus, because it is definitely true that a horse HAS TO FOCUS ON THE RIDER ." It is NOT just deep or deeper, it is extreme and repeated lateral flexion of the neck rather than positioning of the entire body (which would be tranditional training and make the entire body flexible vs the rubbernecking). Worse yet, how is it done though? All hand, drawing the (curb) bit back. If there is protest to the toe. This loads the outside shoulder, no matter how quick. Resistance breeds resistance. So the cycle never ends. A good method should end up being whispered/should be invisible/should develop trust and relaxation. If the horse never 'learns' his lesson, not to challenge the hand even though spurring follows, why is this? Because horses are creatures of balance, and this puts them out of balance. The extreme dialation of the bloodvessels (like a racehorse who has run a mile) in a riding horse tells how much tension/reaction is bubbling under the surface imho.

"Without FORWARD, rollkur is stupid and potentially a BAD IDEA, as the horse then learns to duck behind the aids/bit." Interestingly enough that is how Uphoff used it and her horses were slightly more swinging in the back and laterally flexilbe however. The hand was lighter/weaker.

"hasnt anyone wondered how Anky can get Sal's nose to his chin and still keep him moving forward? And up?" Nope, spur the horse into reaction and take it down 100,000 times. To keep the pogoing away go over tempo, seems clear.

"so rollkur requires a horse that responds instantly to forward aids and a rider who can give such an aid, reward the response, and get the horse to agree to stretch more and more and still stay forward." EXCEPT the horse is now crazed by the leg, it doesnt allow for lateral flexability, all gaits are ridden against the foreleg stance of the horse even when it comes up. And the horse still learned to stay over tempo, piaffes with unfolded hindlegs (ie now lowering of the croup), is short rather than collected, and in piaffe braces under as well.

"The part of rollkur or really deep that I think knowledgeable people are arguing about is the length of time to hold the position and WHY....... they reward/change the position when they feel the response they want-- that the horse agrees to swing in the back and stay engaged on its hind legs." SO, the horse is NOT swinging in the back. IF it were the tail would be swinging side to side, but in rk it never is. And when they come up it rarely is. Can the hindlegs when over tempo step further? Imho they can because only one joint is really being used, so there is a long pedulum action. However, it is without the compression of all the hindleg joints because HH (not used) are not transfering weight, allowing the horse to lift and arc the balancing rod.

"To use really deep ONLY to gain control of a horse is just simplistic horsemanship. To shorten the frame and ask for the nose near the chin and not be able to ask the horse into competition frame and extended frame is poor horsemanship." But rk is shortening the frame, if it were not, why the extreme uses of the bit.

"Anyway, to ask a horse into rollkur and NOT lose the hind legs requires strength of core and hips, timing, tact, and the usual host of other stuff." The hindlegs are already lost when it is not the horse stretching f/d/o into the hand, but taking the balancing rod out of it. The hindlegs push out, the hindquarters up, the joints are stiffened. Just do it to fatigue and resignation and the horse is a kind of supple.

"And when a light leg aid is given, they expect the horse to jump forward and ask 'how far? how high?'" Why should a horse jump forward? Tact on an fei horse depends upon past training, not daily threats. It should become easier, not more necessary.

"when the response is not clear and fast, and the horse locks its back and says, uhh, maybe I own my hind legs and the engine, they use rollkur" Lets see the horse doesnt want to lose balance, the force is coming, resist, but the rider has to curb to outcontrol them..

"Suspension and elasticity and the part they play in modern competition demand bigger, better, fancier movers to add risk to the training scale elements of rhythm/balance and so on" An elastic horse is developed by lowering of the croup/progressive collection, they also are lateral flexible in corners (rarely seen today). The power doesnt come from nervous reaction, a educated horseman should want trust.

"With risk comes the risk of failure--the horse blowing over the line." I agree that the question is always how much without crossing the line. The horse however doesnt blow over the line, we ride it there. That is OUR error, not that of the horse.

"Rollkur is just a tool to help contain and minimize the risk while riding as close to the line as one can.if one watches it and sees only tension, then the risk did not succeed.if one watches it and sees two athletes at max power, then the risk did succeed." If a horse is out of balance how can it not produce tension? Is power all there is?

"Rollkur--the concept of over-mobilizing the balance mechanism and asking for a bit more schwung to go with the power--is icing on the cake." Over mobilizing would be the use of riding unto levade, not taking away the mechanism downward. Or going readily from up and into piaffe to extreme f/d/o, rather than curled backward.

" understanding half-halt forward,without which rollkur will never happen, let alone work.' HH by definition are not just a calll to attention (from the spur here) but the reuse of all the joints of the hindleg which get the horse more up and open. Extreme reaction to the leg is not a HH.

"The complexity is because everything else has to be in place. Balance, rhythm, desire to go forward, suppleness, flexibility, and did I mention balance and rhythm? " So, purity is lost because balance is lost as is flexability. So the rider manipulates the neck in search of flexability and suppleness? Hmmm.

"It is NOT a position, it is an extreme gymnastic flexion." Flexion of the neck for sure, if not willingly then pull back. Not so hard to do. Lean btv and stay upright, know when to release to keep thehorse there.

"If there is an argument to be made, it wd be in the amount of time such a position is held." How long is long? Repeatedly for hours. If she doesnt need it, why the repetitions?

"Horses go to where they have been successful--that is, if they succeed in getting out of work, they will return to whatever they did that proved successful." Horses dont try to get out of work. They merely go where the rider requests. It is the job of the trainer to know how to play chess without resorting to extremes. It also tells us of intial training and balancing request.

"Even last year, as soon as they hit the show grounds, Sal was arguing about whether or not he would agree to listen for the whole nine minutes..
now, i think the work has finally become 'easy' for him, and he has enough tape loops of doing it correctly, that he agrees with the program." If this is so, then why the same warmup? And why would a horse not want to listen? Back to trust and proper aids in the first place.

I dont anyone believes people are saints who try to ride traditionally, but they at least try adhere to the horses nature and balance. We should all ride for the horse alone, not for competition. There is a difference between harsh aids being given (and usually later regreted), and going out of the way to ride against the nature of the horse. That argument doesnt work for me.

"But such love has always been tempered with the need to correct what is wrong." Most of the time we riders cause what is problematic. We need to look inside.

"Why is mobilizing the head and neck crueler than umpteen repeated gallop-halt-gallops?" Canter halt can be done well, or poorly. Who does it upteen. Shoulder in used without cessation might really burnup the abductor/adductors, but should go toward gaining balance. Around a stationary point? Not really shoulder in but a turn on the forehand?

Umpteen shoulder-ins around a stationary point?
and all the other 'exercises' that crush rebellion, not to mention joints?

"the hunger to compete and win has always been part of human nature." The whole competition thing for everyyyyything is new, ie t-ball for 5 year olds, etc. The gladiator mentality shouldnt apply to horses.

"I just think there are many other concerns besides one technqiue." Balance and purity of gait are what a training method is about. THe fei precepts are based upon them.

TBCheval
Jun. 15, 2006, 10:37 AM
... with canyonoak's interesting post as a basis for my questions.


lets define rollkur as manipulating the head/neck aka the balancing rod of the horse. When one correctly manipulates this front end, one can ask the horse to pay attention and focus, because it is definitely true that a horse HAS TO FOCUS ON THE RIDER.Good. So what I understand from this is that rollkur is not actually a stretch for direct physical purposes, but a tool to get the horse's mind with the rider rather than somewhere else. Having one's horse's mind is essential to harmonious riding when asking anything physically or mentally strenuous of a horse, so this is a good goal to have, obviously. However, there are many other less disruptive ways to refocus a horse.


Without FORWARD, rollkur is stupid and potentially a BAD IDEA, as the horse then learns to duck behind the aids/bit.If you already have a strong, smooth and willing "forward", what is the point of using rollkur?


hasnt anyone wondered how Anky can get Sal's nose to his chin and still keep him moving forward? And up?Unfortunately I haven't seen Salinero moving both forward and up (at the same time) with his chin to his chest (I assume that is what was meant).


When the complaint about most horses with their nose to their chin is that they are NOT moving forward but just pogo-ing up and down?Sorry - is "nose to their chin" really what is meant? If so, I may not be understanding this after all.


so rollkur requires a horse that responds instantly to forward aids and a rider who can give such an aid, reward the response, and get the horse to agree to stretch more and more and still stay forward.If the rider can do all this, the rider already has the horse's mind - this is where you reward the horse by releasing and moving on, no? The "tool" is no longer required; toss it back in the box and go dance with your partner!


The part of rollkur or really deep that I think knowledgeable people are arguing about is the length of time to hold the position and WHY.Yes. That and the fact that the extremity of the position is overkill for the purpose when other techniques both on the ground and in the saddle can do the job as well or better (for the horse).


Sjef/Anky will argue that they reward/change the position when they feel the response they want-- that the horse agrees to swing in the back and stay engaged on its hind legs...Why, then, is the horse not allowed to bring his head up into the proper position immediately? Does it mean that this position makes it so difficult for the horse to engage his hindquarters and swing in his back that it actually takes that long for him to provide the response the rider is looking for? Or is there some other reason?


To use really deep ONLY to gain control of a horse is just simplistic horsemanship. To shorten the frame and ask for the nose near the chin and not be able to ask the horse into competition frame and extended frame is poor horsemanship.This has now been quoted more than once and again I notice that rollkur is being described as "nose to chin" - if this is what is truly meant could someone please explain to me what this means and how it relates to the photos and videos? to me it appears that the nose and chin are both to the chest. Thanks so much!

Now - if rollkur is not "ONLY to gain control of a horse" what else is it for?


Sjef and Anky seriously want that when they use a closing of the hand + core strength, the horse submit and soften in the poll/jaw without losing the balance.Isn't this what everyone wants?


And when a light leg aid is given, they expect the horse to jump forward and ask 'how far? how high?'This differs a bit from my expectations. I would like the horse to be willing to jump forward, whenever and wherever I'd like to go, but in the interests of a smooth and harmonious transition I don't always want the horse to actually jump forward off a light leg aid. Very useful for a weekend cow working class, though! :)

when the response is not clear and fast, and the horse locks its back and says, uhh, maybe I own my hind legs and the engine, they use rollkur.This is about refocusing the horse again, which I understand. I just don't think RK is necessary for that. A horse wearing a blindfold would also have to focus on and trust his rider. Of course I've never seen anyone use a blindfold as a tool for this purpose in dressage and I don't imagine the idea would go over very well in the warmup ring, but I'm not at all sure it wouldn't be a better option....


Suspension and elasticity and the part they play in modern competition demand bigger, better, fancier movers to add risk to the training scale elements of rhythm/balance and so on.I didn't quite understand this part? Perhaps someone could rephrase?


With risk comes the risk of failure--the horse blowing over the line.

Rollkur is just a tool to help contain and minimize the risk while riding as close to the line as one can.Is it correct in dressage today to always ride just on the edge of control? That wasn't my understanding of the meaning of dressage, but if this is the case it could explain a lot.

I would personally like my horse to be ready to move with me at any instant without being on the edge of taking over or freaking out. If I feel close to that edge it's time to call back my horse's brain - "hello, I'm here" and then right back to business. If that meant I wouldn't win in competition because my horse wasn't flashy enough, so be it. It's more important to me that my horse and I ride together, mentally and physically, ideally never feeling that my horse is at risk of "blowing over the line". That's a ride I'd be proud of, no matter what the judges thought of it. Judges are human; rules and guidelines (laid down by humans) will always be subject to interpretation.

TBCheval
Jun. 15, 2006, 10:48 AM
LOL. Just saw that someone far more knowledgeable than I am must have been working on a reply at the same time. My post is probably mostly superfluous now but there it is anyway. :o There are a couple of questions in there somewhere....

fiona
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:00 PM
If that meant I wouldn't win in competition because ......

If you are a sportsperson of Olympic competitiveness this is not a train of thought you would follow. Tootling around at home on your own personal journey is not quite the same thing.

Lets imagine you show the judges a routine that they score highly over and over again and you consistently win Olympic and European medals which is your goal. Your horses are as sound and healthy as anyone else's in this high risk of injury sport and your sponsors are happy with your results. Your pupils are doing similarly well, your national team is also frequently successful at Olympic level.
Some people decide they don't like this state of affairs and set about proving the way you achieve this success is abusive, cruel and against the rules under which you have had huge success.

Whatever the motives of these people surely a more logical target would be the Officials, Judges and Rule makers of the sport instead of a malicious crusade against individuals?

JSwan
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:06 PM
Thanks, you two!

JSwan
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:10 PM
Hmmm - I think it's a bit dramatic to call this some sort of conspiracy theory - particularly since the argument against this method has been going on for years - and has not been some sort of crusade against one particular individual. The world does not revolve around Anky.




If you are a sportsperson of Olympic competitiveness this is not a train of thought you would follow. Tootling around at home on your own personal journey is not quite the same thing.

Lets imagine you show the judges a routine that they score highly over and over again and you consistently win Olympic and European medals which is your goal. Your horses are as sound and healthy as anyone else's in this high risk of injury sport and your sponsors are happy with your results. Your pupils are doing similarly well, your national team is also frequently successful at Olympic level.
Some people decide they don't like this state of affairs and set about proving the way you achieve this success is abusive, cruel and against the rules under which you have had huge success.

Whatever the motives of these people surely a more logical target would be the Officials, Judges and Rule makers of the sport instead of a malicious crusade against individuals?

OakesBrae
Jun. 15, 2006, 12:33 PM
Whatever the motives of these people surely a more logical target would be the Officials, Judges and Rule makers of the sport instead of a malicious crusade against individuals?

Here I agree with you - BUT - I think the crusade IS against the Officials, Judges and Rule Makers - unfortunately in order to SHOW what is going on, the rider must be shown.

In the original Horses For Life videos and pictures - different riders are shown and an attempt to preserve their anonymity is...attempted.

fiona
Jun. 15, 2006, 01:01 PM
And yet on You tube it's all the same named rider.
I didn't say conspiracy i said malicious crusade.

Edited to add:
If people felt strongly enough i would have real respect for them if they had the courage of their convictions rather than conduct what appears to be a well orchestrated malicious crusade for personal profit but deny it.

OakesBrae
Jun. 15, 2006, 01:02 PM
I believe the youtube videos are most likely linked to the same site - the youtube videos are a place that people usually put videos and then link to them from other places.

Just a thought - it's not a compiled site, it's a free video hosting site.

SGray
Jun. 15, 2006, 01:08 PM
what happened to 'hyperflexion 6'?

TBCheval
Jun. 15, 2006, 02:03 PM
If you are a sportsperson of Olympic competitiveness this is not a train of thought you would follow.Unless there are no Olympic-caliber competitors who choose not to use rollkur I would have to disagree with this statement.


Whatever the motives of these people surely a more logical target would be the Officials, Judges and Rule makers of the sport instead of a malicious crusade against individuals?"These people" again. Sigh. Who are "these people" and what have they to do with what I posted? It was my message you quoted from.

Sure, whenever there is an issue/complaint/whatever, discuss it with anyone and everyone who can make a difference: officials, judges, organizing bodies, and competitors. But the people who make the biggest difference in the shortest amount of time are the competitors. They can start or stop using a technique on a moment's notice. It takes far more time for organizations to act and that's as it should be. If the organization doesn't have to make a new rule or take steps to put more teeth in an old one, so much the better.

However, this is beside the point as far as I'm concerned. I'm still asking questions here, trying to understand the mechanics and possible benefits of rollkur. I will never know firsthand what rollkur feels like because I don't expect I will ever be qualified to use the technique. So far the serious descriptions of it that I've read here have only served to convince me that anyone with the skill, timing and core strength, etc. to use the technique ought to be able to get the job done without it. It would be really helpful to hear from someone who has actually used it. In any case, I'm certainly nowhere near ready to march in a crusade. ;)

ideayoda
Jun. 15, 2006, 02:27 PM
I think that Niggli (way back in the 80s DID) target the judges and the head of the then head of the FEI publically for not adhering to the rules, et al. And many have since. However, some of the officials/rule makers are part of the people who use the method antithetical to the rules so everything is allowed. (Edited to note, SJ has now resigned as VP!).

Why does anyone consider this a crusade against individuals? Uphoff/AvG/EG/et al are the users of the method. They should be proud of it, explain it, advertise it IF they are proud of it and all its effects. It assured is NOT, but those who use it assume the responsibilities who go along with it! Why is it called malicious? No one has an evil intention, but only one to protect the horse and also keep training (the defintion of dressage) to the rules.

Are judges to blame? Imho, for most things. What we allow to win WILL be copied. And most likely the things which are 'different', rather than the things which are logical and well executed. Its like the low hands/elbows forward in this country, it followed the riding of one rider who won, or the unbraided forelock because of one stallion who could not be braided, etc. Silly things and more agressive things are what stand out.

The good part of the internet: It allows for education of the public brain and eye. Right now the eye for uphill balance is totally lost, the proper effect of a half halt is not a horse dropping and curling, it is compressing o the hindleg joints, creation of impulsion/collection and subsequent lifting/arcing of the neck, and immediate ability to go f/d/o if requesed, as well as the ability to be held by the seat alone (in piaffe) as shown by uberstreichen. Can those with horizontal curbs do that?

I was told by a SRS member that all these things are cyclical. I agree error to one side of the pendulum, swings back to the other side. The difference is that in previous times uphill balance was the object of all training, as was purity of gaits. That is forgotten at the top too often today. And therefore who will take it back again?

sabryant
Jun. 15, 2006, 03:25 PM
I think that Niggli (way back in the 80s DID) target the judges and the head of the then head of the FEI publically for not adhering to the rules, et al. And many have since. However, some of the officials/rule makers are part of the people who use the method antithetical to the rules so everything is allowed. (Edited to note, SJ has now resigned as VP!).

Why does anyone consider this a crusade against individuals? Uphoff/AvG/EG/et al are the users of the method. They should be proud of it, explain it, advertise it IF they are proud of it and all its effects. It assured is NOT, but those who use it assume the responsibilities who go along with it! Why is it called malicious? No one has an evil intention, but only one to protect the horse and also keep training (the defintion of dressage) to the rules.

Are judges to blame? Imho, for most things. What we allow to win WILL be copied. And most likely the things which are 'different', rather than the things which are logical and well executed. Its like the low hands/elbows forward in this country, it followed the riding of one rider who won, or the unbraided forelock because of one stallion who could not be braided, etc. Silly things and more agressive things are what stand out.

The good part of the internet: It allows for education of the public brain and eye. Right now the eye for uphill balance is totally lost, the proper effect of a half halt is not a horse dropping and curling, it is compressing o the hindleg joints, creation of impulsion/collection and subsequent lifting/arcing of the neck, and immediate ability to go f/d/o if requesed, as well as the ability to be held by the seat alone (in piaffe) as shown by uberstreichen. Can those with horizontal curbs do that?

I was told by a SRS member that all these things are cyclical. I agree error to one side of the pendulum, swings back to the other side. The difference is that in previous times uphill balance was the object of all training, as was purity of gaits. That is forgotten at the top too often today. And therefore who will take it back again?


Interesting, I don't see downhill training in the videos posted on RK. I see a horse being ridden into the first 1/3 of the neck in a most uphill way and very connected from behind. I see the other 2/3's of the neck being suppled and softened...if may be down but the BALANCE of the horse, as a whole, is up and free and moving up across the ground, not down into the ground as your eye obviously sees it.

fiona
Jun. 15, 2006, 03:25 PM
These people" again. Sigh. Who are "these people" and what have they to do with what I posted? It was my message you quoted from.



In saying "These people" i meant the people post the videos, not you specifically, sorry if i didn't make that clear. The only part of your post that i quoted referred to the idea that an Olympic competitor would be following their own agenda as opposed to trying to win.


Why does anyone consider this a crusade against individuals?

Because the same (2, as far as i can make out) people keep posting videos of Anky on the internet and then use bulletin boards to direct traffic towards them.

[QUOTE].... Right now the eye for uphill balance is totally lost, ....

I was told by a SRS member that all these things are cyclical.
..... uphill balance was the object of all training, as was purity of gaits. That is forgotten at the top too often today. And therefore who will take it back again?/QUOTE]

I don't think the situation at the top is as bad as you think. There are many trainers and riders who stress train "uphill" It is all we ever hear about over here!
I agree with the SRS rider who says these things are cyclical but then so are standards in Vienna. It can be disappointing to see the performance but shows just how hard it is to keep those fundamental principles clean. And lets face it if they can't always acheive it what hope do the rest of us have?

Noir
Jun. 15, 2006, 03:38 PM
I don't know. Horsedances keeps posting videos on the internet, too, and is very popular for it. It could be very interesting to see the training and warm-up that results in what Horsedances posts as well. Most dressage enthusiasts think so. If there's nothing to be ashamed of how can the videos be used in a "malicious crusade against individuals"?

My god, sabryant, the withers are lower than the croup on Krack C, and he is built uphill from birth. You see what you want, I guess.

T

DressageGuy
Jun. 15, 2006, 03:41 PM
sabryant, you'll continue to see whatever you want, regardless of whether that's what is actually on the tape. How is that hind end engaged? Answer, IT'S NOT.

I meant to post this earlier too, perhaps you can answer it. If rollkur isn't about force and strength isn't needed to perform it, how come everything we see of it is done with a full bridle? Do people ever use it with a snaffle? If not, why? I'm guessing because there's no leverage with a plain old snaffle, and leverage is the only thing that makes this possible.

pinecone
Jun. 15, 2006, 03:48 PM
The difference is that in previous times uphill balance was the object of all training, as was purity of gaits. That is forgotten at the top too often today. And therefore who will take it back again?

I'll preface this by saying things at the top are not so bleak as some people want to make us think. Having said that, in answer to the question "who will take it back again", if there are people able to accomplish results as good or better than what we are seeing now, with more classically acceptable methods, then it shouldn't be too hard to "take it back again".:winkgrin:

There are plenty of people quick to throw stones at "modern" dressage, and nobody stepping up to the plate to show us anything "better". Most every photo and video (what little there is) of the "classical masters" is showing inferior work (although it takes a trained eye to see this, because it is more complex than just determining if the poll is the highest point and so forth), and those today who call themselves "classical" have many similar issues as the "modern" riders, so it makes it difficult to convince any reasonable person that all of these problems are the fault of the modern riders and/or rollkur.

Fiona makes many good points.

sabryant
Jun. 15, 2006, 03:49 PM
I don't know. Horsedances keeps posting videos on the internet, too, and is very popular for it. It could be very interesting to see the training and warm-up that results in what Horsedances posts as well. Most dressage enthusiasts think so. If there's nothing to be ashamed of how can the videos be used in a personal vendetta against the rider?

My god, sabryant, the withers are lower than the croup on Krack C, and he is built uphill from birth. You see what you want, I guess.

T
Oh my goodness, Noir, you need to go back and watch the video again. As I said before some people's eye for dressage is much like van Gogh's ear for music.

pinecone
Jun. 15, 2006, 03:52 PM
Dressage Guy, these types of photos are generally of FEI level horses, so it is not surprising that they are being worked in full bridles.

Sebastian
Jun. 15, 2006, 04:05 PM
Oh my goodness, Noir, you need to go back and watch the video again. As I said before some people's eye for dressage is much like van Gogh's ear for music.

Sorry, but Noir is right. Vids #2 & #5 were particularly disturbing. Horse's hind end is high, light and all over the place. Gaits are completely compromised -- horse is trying to please, but can't because of the conflicting messages he is receiving. That kind of frustration CAN'T make for a "happy" horse.

Your logic is baffling.
Seb

fiona
Jun. 15, 2006, 04:23 PM
Horsedances posts video of tests for our enjoyment, he doesn't seem to have any axe to grind or favour/disfavour any particular rider or trainer. They're often freestyles because that's what gets shown on tv over here most and i think that's his particular interest.
I think it's his attitude of enthusiasm and appreciation of people's efforts to ride that help make his actions popular.


If there's nothing to be ashamed of how can the videos be used in a "malicious crusade against individuals"?

The crusade comes when people repeatedly allege a named rider uses cruelty and abuse and and create a climate where that person is likely to be damaged by the consequences without any due recourse.

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 04:41 PM
Horsedances posts video of tests for our enjoyment, he doesn't seem to have any axe to grind or favour/disfavour any particular rider or trainer. They're often freestyles because that's what gets shown on tv over here most and i think that's his particular interest.
I think it's his attitude of enthusiasm and appreciation of people's efforts to ride that help make his actions popular.


The crusade comes when people repeatedly allege a named rider uses cruelty and abuse and and create a climate where that person is likely to be damaged by the consequences without any due recourse.
Who has said Anky is the Pure evil spawn?? It is not her its the Method.. she is in the limelight, as is her Man.. But its the method, and calling it Dressage that really irks all of us! I know I am over simplifying.
I still ask, if it is a wionderful method, why are they even worried that it is talked about, why not shout it from the roof tops??:yes:

Horsedances
Jun. 15, 2006, 07:27 PM
I don't know. Horsedances keeps posting videos on the internet, too, and is very popular for it. It could be very interesting to see the training and warm-up that results in what Horsedances posts as well. Most dressage enthusiasts think so. If there's nothing to be ashamed of how can the videos be used in a "malicious crusade against individuals"?

My god, sabryant, the withers are lower than the croup on Krack C, and he is built uphill from birth. You see what you want, I guess.

T

Theresa, yes I post these videos for people who don't have the chance to follow their/our beautifull sport, because they are in Russia, Australia, South Africa, Ukraine, Finland or in the USA. I publish these clips for enjoyement and in the hope people can learn from it, NOT OUT OF FRUSTRATION. I also have 25 years (over 2000 houres) of videotapes of trainingsessions, warm-ups, clinics etc.... that is why I know that there are so many people out there "who are preaching water to their students and drinking wine themselves"
I have seen these so called "holy trainers" walking around and using their electric sticks, bamboo sticks en steal chains, rings and all other gadgets.

But from the day they didn't have to help their students to win Gold anymore, they suffer from a very selective memory.

Like you are (remember :confused: )

On your very special request my sister made a very extensive report for you about her experiences with ex-rollkur horses. But probably her end-conclussion didn't fit in your strategy :no: , so you never used it, and rather continued to stick your head in the sand.

sm
Jun. 15, 2006, 07:29 PM
... just touching base after a long day and all questions are unanswered WHY ? Nice personal injustice remarks peppered by rightous indignation and Let's Protect Anky remarks (who mentioned her in the first place? Not those asking questions).

Just lots of Ideayoda's questions, TBCheval's, and mine --- left unanswered. I thought they were fair and up front questions...

trailblazzer
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:06 PM
The videos speak for themselves.

Stop trying to change the subject by alleging a "vendetta." It doesn't matter who the rider is. It doesn't matter who the videographer is. It doesn't matter who posted the videos on youtube. The only people involved in a "conspiracy" are those who refuse to acknowledge that the videos reflect reality. Stop trying to deflect attention from the videos. They show what they show. Case closed.

If you think that rollkur is so great, the least you can do is defend what is shown in the videos instead of making excuses for it.

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 08:56 PM
... just touching base after a long day and all questions are unanswered WHY ? Nice personal injustice remarks peppered by rightous indignation and Let's Protect Anky remarks (who mentioned her in the first place? Not those asking questions).

Just lots of Ideayoda's questions, TBCheval's, and mine --- left unanswered. I thought they were fair and up front questions...
I keep copying it and pasting it, I am getting no where! :confused:

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:01 PM
I just went to Youtube, and viewed the first Hyperflexioin Video. It is very plainly Anky. What I want to know, is What is with the Bursts of movement, The horse looks to spurt forward then back to .. I dont know is that a Trot, Passage what?? And the extensions??? Thats an extension.. The horses head is so curled up. How can he possible do a decent extension.. Also what is with the Cantering a few steps behind.. its a shuffled movement, After she goes partway across the diagonal. ITs like confusion on the horses part. Very hurried, and unsure, or trying to comply with what he is being asked in light of the position of his head and neck.
OK So please explain, How does that warm up she is doing translate into the ride in the ring. I am asking a sincere question. What will that warm up result in during the test??
Isn't this a legit question, I have asked it on all these threads of the pro Rollkur folks and yet it still goes unanswered. Do you not have an answer?? :confused:

nero
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:02 PM
give me a break, people try to answer questions and then in return they just get accused of being 'blinded by Anky worship', thinking 'putting ginger on a horse's bum is ok too' and all variety of other sins. Why would anyone bother????

lstevenson
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:05 PM
Isn't this a legit question, I have asked it on all these threads of the pro Rollkur folks and yet it still goes unanswered. Do you not have an answer?? :confused:


Sannois-

I think they don't know.;)

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:08 PM
give me a break, people try to answer questions and then in return they just get accused of being 'blinded by Anky worship', thinking 'putting ginger on a horse's bum is ok too' and all variety of other sins. Why would anyone bother????
I truly know you dont read my posts, because I defy you to find one where I said anything of the sort! I simply keep saying the same thing, I dont care who is riding, it goes again all of what Dressage is to me! My question is neither accusing or nasty! :no:

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:10 PM
Sannois-

I think they don't know.;)
Theres the sound of the preverbial nail being hit on the head again.
I dont think they do know the purpose, or what it is intended to accomplish in the ring! :confused:

nero
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:12 PM
I truly know you dont read my posts, because I defy you to find one where I said anything of the sort! I simply keep saying the same thing, I dont care who is riding, it goes again all of what Dressage is to me! My question is neither accusing or nasty! :no: In general, not you specifically, if I answer YOU I'll probably get shot down by 15 others in a fairly agressive tone. Why woukld anyone want to subject themselves to that?

Ellie K
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:16 PM
Edited to note, SJ has now resigned as VP!Can you provide a source for this information? I presume you are referring to his position in the FEI, in which case, first of all, he is not "VP" of anything, he is just a committee member. I can only imagine you are basing this claim on the report of the FEI Dressage Committee's recent meeting, in which case you have the facts very, very wrong.

Unless you have some inside scoop that has not yet been announced (in which case please provide a source), he has not resigned anything. All FEI committee members serve four year terms. Sjef’s term is up in April 2007, so per standard procedure, the committee’s spring meeting involved discussion of candidates submitted for his replacement at next year’s General Assembly. Those candidates are proposed/accepted by their national federations and/or the relevant riders’ organisation (such as IDRC) per normal procedure.

As noted in the FEI Dressage Committee's Recent Meeting Report (21-23 May):

Replacement of members 2007 - The Committee agreed to recommend to the FEI Bureau, the appointment of Dolores Fernández de Bobadilla (ESP), as new member to replace Sjef Janssen (NED). The outgoing Riders representative will be replaced by Monica Theodorescu (GER).There is no “resignation” involved whatsoever. His term is up next spring, just like many other committee members’ terms are up every year. That is all. Again...unless there has been a subsequent development that only you know about..in which case please provide a source.

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:19 PM
I just wish there was a way that all of us as Riders of Dressage and lovers of horses could discuss this as adults.
Granted many of us have never ridden that level of Dressage, I have ridden and competed all my life,, I'm OLD.. :) Always the hunters and in the last 10 years Dressage and eventing, I am no beginner. I have ridden with some big names, But I still adhere to the ways I was taught The principles of Dressage are.
I am just trying to understand from people who have obviously ridden to that level, what the purpose of the exercises are and to what end does the rider hope to come to in the competition ring. :confused:

ideayoda
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:26 PM
SJ was vp of the dressage committee, a position which is now held by Truppa. Now SJ is a member of the (dressage) committee. Replaced is the correct word, rather than resigned.....too much typing.

OakesBrae
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:26 PM
On your very special request my sister made a very extensive report for you about her experiences with ex-rollkur horses. But probably her end-conclussion didn't fit in your strategy :no: , so you never used it, and rather continued to stick your head in the sand.

Who were you talking to? (Just curious)

nero
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:28 PM
I just wish there was a way that all of us as Riders of Dressage and lovers of horses could discuss this as adults.
Granted many of us have never ridden that level of Dressage, I have ridden and competed all my life,, I'm OLD.. :) Always the hunters and in the last 10 years Dressage and eventing, I am no beginner. I have ridden with some big names, But I still adhere to the ways I was taught The principles of Dressage are.
I am just trying to understand from people who have obviously ridden to that level, what the purpose of the exercises are and to what end does the rider hope to come to in the competition ring. :confused:

If you do a search on Anky/Sjef or even Nicole Uphoff/Boldt you will find the people WHO ACTUALLY ride/rode that way explaining why they do so, Anky for example has been more than open about the method and why it is used by her and others. I feel however that you won't be satisfied with the explnation, so maybe just agree to disagree, move and and go ride YOUR horse and worry less about how others ride theirs. Probably most people here who DEFEND riders right to use rk don't necessarily ride it themselves, so why would you want answers from them? Me included.

A long time ago, some VERY knowledgeable, rational, non abusive and erudite people answered all these questions, they have left this thread long ago because bashing their heads against a brick wall was painful and being insulted j7ust not their thing. Maybe do a search of rk threads here and elsewhere and I believe the likes of CanyonOak will give you many of the answers you seek.

Sannois
Jun. 15, 2006, 09:55 PM
If you do a search on Anky/Sjef or even Nicole Uphoff/Boldt you will find the people WHO ACTUALLY ride/rode that way explaining why they do so, Anky for example has been more than open about the method and why it is used by her and others. I feel however that you won't be satisfied with the explnation, so maybe just agree to disagree, move and and go ride YOUR horse and worry less about how others ride theirs. Probably most people here who DEFEND riders right to use rk don't necessarily ride it themselves, so why would you want answers from them? Me included.

A long time ago, some VERY knowledgeable, rational, non abusive and erudite people answered all these questions, they have left this thread long ago because bashing their heads against a brick wall was painful and being insulted j7ust not their thing. Maybe do a search of rk threads here and elsewhere and I believe the likes of CanyonOak will give you many of the answers you seek.
I understand what you are saying.. I guess I still want to know why even those who defend it but dont ride it, do so?? Does that make sense..
Do the principles of Dressage training not mean the same to all Who love Dressage??
I will ride my horse, and my students new Green Belgian Warmblood, and a friends Andy.. But I wish I understood the need for such a way of riding, when to me the classic approach though long, does yield wonderful results. And is so rewarding! Thanks for your time, and civil answer! :yes:

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:07 AM
Who were you talking to? (Just curious)


He's talking to Noir (Theresa) who hosts a anti RK website in Sweden, who had supposedly legal trouble with SJef because she went very aggressively against RK on the internet in several boards- so it became known. She posted selective photographs of RK horses being ridden in the warmup- preferably by Anky or her students. The website was taken down last year and recently reopened...

There is a lot more story behind that than what meets the 'innocent american eye'....:LOL~

Karoline
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:45 AM
Say: Thank God for Noir!

Oakesbraes, to make up your mind about Noir's site, instead of having your mind made up for you, check: www.sustainabledressage.com. You will find photos, graphs, and clear explanations of why she supports dressage as defined by the FEI guidelines and frowns upon hyperflexion. Hopefully, Noir will be able to add her Scales section back again soon. Besides the training part, the equipement section is really worth reading.

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:10 AM
for posting the link to Theresa's site. While I beg to differ with you that she supports FEI guidelines- I believe she merely supports her own, rather limited view on what is right or wrong and what works or not- there are quite a few errors and misinformation on this site- that truly reflect her opinion...undoubtedly her right to do on her site. but please...do not make this be a 'neutral site'. There is a lot of stuff on there that is pretty laughable...but then again...for the folks from distant continents..this might seem like a blessing..:LOL!

Karoline
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:38 AM
I do not think Noir's website is neutral, why should it have to? but I think her arguments for not liking rolkur are sound and she is not attacking any rider in particular but a technique. Unfortunately, one rider is the poster child for the technique.

You are right that on distant continents like Europe, Noir as been lauded by some well established figures of the dressage world for her efforts and her courage.

Today, I watched a lovely, confirmed, competitive I1 horse work on piaffe/passage...ears perked, poll high, throatlatch open, springy steps, haunches low, front up, so happy. Good trainer on the ground, average rider aboard. Happy as a clam. Not nervous, not jumpy, just a good horse doing its work. - It made me wonder why anyone, anyone at all would feel the need to lower that head and roll that beautiful neck.

Gaia
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:41 AM
I understand what you are saying.. I guess I still want to know why even those who defend it but dont ride it, do so?? Does that make sense..
Do the principles of Dressage training not mean the same to all Who love Dressage??
I will ride my horse, and my students new Green Belgian Warmblood, and a friends Andy.. But I wish I understood the need for such a way of riding, when to me the classic approach though long, does yield wonderful results. And is so rewarding! Thanks for your time, and civil answer! :yes:

The Anky films are "nice" a lot of joking and laughter - a "soft" riding - curling the horses "nicely" . It is not my cup of tea, and they show a very diffrent way of half-halting, as the alignment is diffrent to say the least.
The internet films are a shock to watch after that...

Sabine
Jun. 16, 2006, 01:51 AM
I do not think Noir's website is neutral, why should it have to? but I think her arguments for not liking rolkur are sound and she is not attacking any rider in particular but a technique. Unfortunately, one rider is the poster child for the technique.

You are right that on distant continents like Europe, Noir as been lauded by some well established figures of the dressage world for her efforts and her courage.

Today, I watched a lovely, confirmed, competitive I1 horse work on piaffe/passage...ears perked, poll high, throatlatch open, springy steps, haunches low, front up, so happy. Good trainer on the ground, average rider aboard. Happy as a clam. Not nervous, not jumpy, just a good horse doing its work. - It made me wonder why anyone, anyone at all would feel the need to lower that head and roll that beautiful neck.

agreed - but that is just in your comfy backyard- or whereever you have your horse and you see good mid level folks doing what they do- beautiful pieces per se- but not international level dressage. I do not defend RK but I ask for respect and tolerance for those few top level riders that know how to train like that and get apparently outstanding results- because if they didn't get those results- they sure would change their method in a heart beat. So there....
This is for the top ten- not for the rest. I am a part of the rest- I ride deep and love it- I intermix it- my horses love it and I don't have an issue respecting and admiring the result that Anky presents in the ring- because ultimately her horses display more looseness and reach than the rest- and I guess most O judges are so sick and tired of watching yet another stiff backed horse suffering thru yet another GP test...have you ever sat through one and scribed one- or sat next to a judge and heard the comments- I have- ad infinitum- it is a blessing and a breath of fresh air when a GP horse enters the ring that still has a SWINGING BACK and lateral REACH and LOOSENESS written all over himself...go back to square one and watch the YH classes..that's where the whole misery starts and they are now rewarding those swingy horses...I guess it's a trend- or maybe it's how horses should look- rubbery and swingy and not wooden and stocked up - which is what classical training sadly has produced...or give me a better example...???

Sylvia Ikle- her horse is very classical- but he has a sizable tongue problem...:(

belambi
Jun. 16, 2006, 02:46 AM
http://www.horsesport.org/D/d_01_01.lasso?vID=1177
Sjef s time is up on the FEI committee

Noir
Jun. 16, 2006, 04:59 AM
The crusade comes when people repeatedly allege a named rider uses cruelty and abuse and and create a climate where that person is likely to be damaged by the consequences without any due recourse.

So, since I don't mention cruelty and abuse, don't write much at all really, compared to other posters, I'm not on the crusade? I just post links to interesting training/warm-up footage that might be equally interesting to see as the finished freestyle product.



Theresa, yes I post these videos for people who don't have the chance to follow their/our beautifull sport, because they are in Russia, Australia, South Africa, Ukraine, Finland or in the USA. I publish these clips for enjoyement and in the hope people can learn from it, NOT OUT OF FRUSTRATION. I also have 25 years (over 2000 houres) of videotapes of trainingsessions, warm-ups, clinics etc.... that is why I know that there are so many people out there "who are preaching water to their students and drinking wine themselves". I have seen these so called "holy trainers" walking around and using their electric sticks, bamboo sticks en steal chains, rings and all other gadgets.

But from the day they didn't have to help their students to win Gold anymore, they suffer from a very selective memory.

Like you are (remember :confused: )

On your very special request my sister made a very extensive report for you about her experiences with ex-rollkur horses. But probably her end-conclussion didn't fit in your strategy :no: , so you never used it, and rather continued to stick your head in the sand.

I don't post videos out of frustration, either. I just think people deserve to see what is going on. There's no harm in posting videos, it's just educational, like you describe.

You may lump me together with everyone else, but I never praise any "Holy Trainers" because I don't know any and because I cannot possibly know what they're up to when I don't see them. I can't guarantee anything of what they do. People have to learn to look for themselves, and see what they are seeing. Most of the feed back I have gotten has actually been along the lines of "My God, I had no idea!!!" And now they do.

Your sister wrote and explained her view on rollkur. Basically she didn't use it but thought others could do as they like. That's not revolutionary in any way. Most riders feel that way. You sent it to me 4 years ago, and I don't think I still have it. I will do a search though. If you want I can post it here on COTH. Or if you still have it you can post it.


Regarding all the "questions asked but never answered" I think a lot of them have been answered. In Canyonoaks extensive post, in articles by the inventors of the technique, etc. The problem, from my point of view is that the answers are sometimes not logical, are sometimes completely contradicted by what we see in the warm-up ring, are not based of biomechanics and physics, and lead to a result which proponents like to name with terms from the FEI rules, and a lot of other people like to call something completely different. The "uphill-ness" of Krack C is a striking example. We do not agree on the answer, and sometimes the answers don't apply to the questions.

I think some answers are withheld, because, as we can see on this board, when people answer honestly, that they feel a young horse needs more "firm explanations" so they can't be ridden lightly, that the extreme "power" that is pumped up in the hyperflexion video is what is sought after and sometimes we have to let the basics of the training scale go (rhythm, relaxation...). That hindquarter activity is good when it bounces and the hocks work like piston out behind, or that it's actually bad ad caused by tension. We simply don't agree. I think that's an answer in itself.

Sabine, my website is not "an anti RK website in Sweden" but rather a website about dressage in general, which also has a chapter on rollkur. And it's in English, so it's faily international. I get most of my feedback from the US. Other posters on BBs added a link to my website where I hosted photos from the Dutch Championships Warm-up. I was contacted by Sjef Janssen and threatened with legal action unless I took them down, because of his portrait rights to Anky's face. As is usual in such matters I took the material down during our own investigation into his claims, and it came up again after a couple of months, when we had cleared out that there was no such thing as portrait rights in a setting such as my website. If I had been on a "personal vendetta" against Anky or Sjef, the easiest thing to do would have been to post the e-mails I got from him, and the ones I got from his lawyer, links to his other "legal work" and other things where he would do a good job of turning people against himself by himself. But I didn't, since I'm not interested in that, I'm interested in letting regular people know what a training method looks like, for real and not just in their own commercial videos. This way, people can make up their own minds. That's not a personal vendetta to me.

And Sabine, would you point out those supposed errors for me, please. I get these comments (solely from RK-proponants, or users of a specific type of gadget that I discuss) but they hardly ever come up with specifics. Now's your chance.


Theresa

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:47 AM
Ahhhh! I've come upon Noir's site several times, actually - and read much of the old one. I didn't put two and two together!! (Guess that happens when you're just a poor plebian classicist)

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 06:05 AM
Ahhhh! I've come upon Noir's site several times, actually - and read much of the old one. I didn't put two and two together!! (Guess that happens when you're just a poor plebian classicist)
just a couple of Plebs!!! :lol:

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 06:30 AM
nero writes post 592: "A long time ago, some VERY knowledgeable, rational, non abusive and erudite people answered all these questions, they have left this thread long ago because bashing their heads against a brick wall was painful and being insulted j7ust not their thing. Maybe do a search of rk threads here and elsewhere and I believe the likes of CanyonOak will give you many of the answers you seek."

Okay, we looked at CanyonOak in post 545 -- but CanyonOaks description did not refer to the videos -- it was a completely different -- excerpt post 545:

***************
"From CanyonOak's link, "The rider has to really have swinging hips, a lot of core strength, excellent timing, and a real undertsanding of half-halt forward to use rollkur. It is NOT a position, it is an extreme gymnastic flexion. THAT is what is meant by the concept that the technique is only for experienced riders. I hardly need the fingers of both hands to see riders who truly understand and use half-halt forward."

To CanyonOak's "It is NOT a Position " -- have you seen the videos (question 1 and 4 above)? It most certianly is a position. Again, why RK -- WHY is the horse kept bent at the 3/4th vertebrae and WHY the impure unbalanced gaits during competition?

***************

so nero, if the defense is along the lines of we don't know but we defend the right of the riders to use this exercise, then thank you, that would be an answer.

The rightous indignation crap doesn't cut it, nor does the we're gonna get nailed if we answer. Just LINK, don't write, is the explanation on Anky's site (somewhere I missed?) since she is so sweet, so knowledgable and so forthcoming? WHAT'S THE POINT OF THE RK EXERCISES ON THE VIDEOS???? WHY THE IMPURE UNBALANCED GAITS DURING COMPETITION???

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 06:47 AM
The explanation is so far removed what is shown on the Videos!
Its only in the minds of the Proponents who want to see it that way. They are all lovely explanations but none match up to the videos evidence!!
I see your still asking your question, I tried as well to ask mine for the umpteenth time. I was told to basically do a search and ride my horses how I like! :eek:

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:03 AM
ah Sannois -- but I would LIKE to ride my horse correctly. Not be stuck in the mud with some ODG theory that just isn't "with it."

So to understand the purpose of the RK exercise is very important, no? Why is that so hard to explain, I don't get it.

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:56 AM
ah Sannois -- but I would LIKE to ride my horse correctly. Not be stuck in the mud with some ODG theory that just isn't "with it."


What? This is a puzzling statement to me - what did you mean here?


So to understand the purpose of the RK exercise is very important, no? Why is that so hard to explain, I don't get it.

Understanding it is one thing, but I believe there is a massive disconnect between what people are saying, both here and in articles, and the content of the videos. The content of the videos shows something completely different - which makes it hard for proponents of rk to answer. I still don't even know if most have watched the videos since the answers don't seem to jive.

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:01 AM
What? This is a puzzling statement to me - what did you mean here?



Understanding it is one thing, but I believe there is a massive disconnect between what people are saying, both here and in articles, and the content of the videos. The content of the videos shows something completely different - which makes it hard for proponents of rk to answer. I still don't even know if most have watched the videos since the answers don't seem to jive.
Was that Tongue in Cheek sm???:confused: Do you mean you cant understand why the proponents cant explain it?? Or Are you saying I should stop listening to ODG's???:confused:

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:15 AM
yes: "Was that Tongue in Cheek sm???" If the method on the videos is so good, and the ODGs are wrong and this is so much better ---- explain.

oh lordy, no: "Are you saying I should stop listening to ODG's???"

agreed, mainly because I'm not getting answers: re OaksBrae #607, "I believe there is a massive disconnect between what people are saying, both here and in articles, and the content of the videos. The content of the videos shows something completely different - which makes it hard for proponents of rk to answer. I still don't even know if most have watched the videos since the answers don't seem to jive."

slc2
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:15 AM
the proponents have explained every bit of it in extreme detail and invited people to watch, and they NEVER claimed that the horses were only doing this for a minute or two, that's something you guys made up, attributed to them, and then accused them of violating. they have NEVER even suggested that. the fei put that in their discussions but never defined what 'too long' is, and most horses warm up and even do much of their ride in this position.

and NO, I STILL DON'T USE ROLLKUR IN MY TRAINING, AND I STILL AM NOT A PROPONENT OF IT, IN FAVOR OF IT, OR LIKE IT, OR THINK IT'S DIVINE, OR WORSHIP ANKY OR FEEL, 'WELL, IT WINS', SO DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH THAT I DID NOT SAY, AND TRY FOR 1/20 of a SECOND TO STAY ON SUBJECT. and even the most staunch proponents of it look at anky sometimes and say, 'that really is too much of position even for me'.

you guys who are saying 'why don't they explain it' and 'why don't they answer the questions', i say - why aren't you listening when they do? the reasons for using this have been explained many, many, many times, and the reasons are NOT to 'get the horse to pay attention to the rider' or 'to allow a weak rider to dominate the horse', or anything like that that you guys have made up and then said they said. you guys made that up, and then dissected it. you guys kill me, you make up all this stuff, it's like you're living in an alternate universe.

an excited horse at a horse show is a tense, excited, exhuberant animal who wants to buck, jump, play, spook and act like an idiot, and if the horse DIDN'T want to do that, i'd be taking his temperature and calling the vet. these high couraged, hot, sensitive horses look pretty lousy in ANY warmup technique and ANY schooling technique. i've got video of all the great 'NON ROLLKUR' trainers having the most abominable warmups one can possibly imagine, including seeing reiner klimke's horse going around with its nose on its chest, tripping and throwing his happy *** off in the sand. so? they are horses, not robots.

slc

TBCheval
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:29 AM
the reasons for using this have been explained many, many, many times, and the reasons are NOT to 'get the horse to pay attention to the rider' or 'to allow a weak rider to dominate the horse', or anything like that. you guys made that up, and then dissected it.Since I was the one who said something about "getting the horse to focus on the rider" (based entirely on Canyonoak's post, which I referenced) I have to say that I don't believe I "made anything up". I posted an honest attempt to interpret Canyonoak's explanation point by point; no one contradicted it, and no one offered answers for the bits I said I didn't understand. If I didn't get something right, someone could help me out by explaining it to me rather than accusing me of making things up. Thanks.

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:32 AM
slc, go back to 604 on this page, re Canyon Oaks "not a position" inside the asteriks:

slc writes: "....and they NEVER claimed that the horses were only doing this for a minute or two, that's something you guys made up, attributed to them, and then accused them of violating. they have NEVER even suggested that. the fei put that in their discussions but never defined what 'too long' is, and most horses warm up and even do much of their ride in this position.

More attacks **yawn** just no answers....

What videos please? At Olympic GP level you'd think the horses knew their job and required ever so light aids: "an excited horse at a horse show is a tense, excited, exhuberant animal who wants to buck, jump, play, spook and act like an idiot, and if the horse DIDN'T want to do that, i'd be taking his temperature and calling the vet. these high couraged, hot, sensitive horses look pretty lousy in ANY warmup technique and ANY schooling technique. i've got video of all the great 'NON ROLLKUR' trainers having the most abominable warmups one can possibly imagine, including seeing reiner klimke's horse going around with its nose on its chest, tripping and throwing his happy *** off in the sand. so? they are horses, not robots."

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:44 AM
taking it from another angle, slc, are you suggesting (obtusely, so forgive me if I'm coming to the wrong conclusion) that the rider is overmounted and can't handle the horse -- thus the RK exercise in the video?

Because I'm not the world's best rider, but my horsie does go out of his way to have me stay on. We are a team, and quite frankly, the horses I've known never allowed me to feel overmounted. Perhaps with the horses I've known though (including a 4-1/2 yo stallion off the track, and a green broke three year old) it was more a challenge to have me stay on, perhaps for them it was not much sport to have me come off.

In other words, I understand the CONCEPT of overmounted, but not the experience. So forgive me if I am off on the wrong track...

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:47 AM
just moments in time. why not show the good moments?


In the other hand if I will be with a camera in the sidelines of any show here in the US, I can get a lot of disturbing images, starting from bad riding, riders that should not be riding and taking a picture in a bad moment (which always happens).


There's two, slc, that are saying "it's a moment in time"

We didn't make it up.

sabryant changed her posts. I think that sabryant and "us" have communication issues, since it seems now she's a proponent of f/d/o (which is what I use and is indeed classical) and not rollkur (as seen in the videos).

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:48 AM
If the said people are not into RK, dont say they agree with it or not, then what is all there fuss about???
I STILL want to know,ad nauseum... WHAT is it supposed to result in once the horse is in the Competition ring???
If it is nothing more than a control thing, dominance thing, which I am of a mind to believe, especially after sebryants comment to me that If I tried to used the lightest aides on Salinero I would be in a Body brace!~ :eek:
then to me, something is REALLY wrong with the training! :eek:

OakesBrae
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:49 AM
these high couraged, hot, sensitive horses look pretty lousy in ANY warmup technique and ANY schooling technique. i've

It has nothing to do with whether they "just" look hot - heck, I expect hot. What I *do not* expect is what was seen in the videos - trapped horses, exploding largely because they have no other choice.

slc, did YOU watch the videos?

TBCheval
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:49 AM
Maybe do a search of rk threads here and elsewhere and I believe the likes of CanyonOak will give you many of the answers you seek.I, for one, have searched elsewhere before coming here (you must have noted I haven't been here long) and am still searching. My searches have found knee-jerk emotional diatribes on both sides. My searches have found some unemotional discussion on both sides. But all of the information I've found so far containing any detailed analysis of the horses' physical and mental state during extreme hyperflexion indicates it is not beneficial to the horse. I am reluctant to search further here on COTH because one thread like this one is enough for me. But if my questions are so unwelcome I will try to find another place to ask them. I appreciate the few thoughtful and civil responses I've read in this thread.

claire
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:01 AM
http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/images/statusicon/post_old.gif Oct. 8, 2005, 05:12 PM
Sabine (http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/member.php?u=88013) http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register("postmenu_1374696", true);
Working Hunter
Join Date: Aug. 7, 2005
Location: Southern California/Muenchen
Posts: 818

[quote:Sabine]
http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/images/icons/icon1.gif
But the big point I am trying to make with you- which I know I need to prove - because only maybe horsedances could help in a better way... is that:
I am a pro in technology and I know that Teresa took at least 5000 shots to get the 50 that are on that proof sheet- no cost, no worry with today's technology. They are MOMENTS IN TIME!

I have ridden deep, at times btv- or RK but the fact that the horses have in some pictures tension and open lips does not necessarily indicate any kind of discomfort other than a moment of off-balance or tension, which can occur in all riding we do.[quote]



slc, The above is just ONE example of the back and forth explanations of RK/LDR that has come up within these discussions of the method.

And I could go back and research but I do believe it was Theo who offered the honest explanation of this RK/LDR method as a means whereby a small person could control a large hot athletic horse.

I also believe that Theo quoted Sjef on one of these current threads saying essentially "his" method (RK/LDR) is valuable because it "wins" and makes for "happy" horses.

I will also look back but there are also quotes from Sjef saying "his" method works for competition because after a warm-up in RK/LDR it is so "easy" for the horse to perform in the "competition" frame.

Sabine, I am sorry to quote one of your posts from awhile ago...I realize you may have changed your mind about the "moment in time" aspect of RK/LDR given the evidence of further videos/experience.

And Theo, I respect that at least you have been honest about what the method is REALLY about.

It is just this back and forth and changing stories by both SOME posters here, and now by Sjef himself (in the article Coreene posted)
That just really makes understanding this whole thing extremely difficult.

pinecone
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:02 AM
sm, no offense, but I can't possibly see how a person can compare the level of comfort they feel riding a safe amateur backyard horse, to an Anky or a Klimke on an international GP horse. So yes, you are most likely innocently off on the wrong track.

The level of arrogance and rudeness (and frequently ignorance) in many of these posts is astonishing, and then I have to laugh when some of you come back again and again complaining because people won't continue to explain things to you ad nauseum.

This has been discussed and explained over and over and over and over again. You hear what you want to hear, you see what you want to see, and you understand what your level of knowledge allows you to understand.

ideayoda, I doubt it was too much typing, but rather too much hyping:lol: . Innocent mistake? I doubt it.

fiona
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:04 AM
So, since I don't mention cruelty and abuse, don't write much at all really, compared to other posters, I'm not on the crusade? I just post links to interesting training/warm-up footage that might be equally interesting to see as the finished freestyle product.

What is that below then? it comes from one of your posts.


Fact is that I know of no upper level horse who has suffered neck injuries from correct deep riding
[/list]
Honestly, we don't know this either. I know of a groom at a top stable who went home after seeing a horse dropping dead from training, and being towed out of the arena like waste. I won't say which stable it was or what rider it was, but they train "deep and round" among other things. I can't completely veryfy it, because I didn't see it with my own eyes, but the woman who claims to have witnessed it does not want to share it because she fears for her own career in the horse business.

It will be impossible to tell what ailments correctly deep ridden horses have suffered, because AvG is in the end the only one really qualified to ride deep right. That's how those discussions always eand. The clinic in Utrecht are supposed to get to examine her horses, or at least so she claimed in her website. If they examine with 90 degree micro ex-ray to actually be able to locate the dismopathies is another matter.



And what are you implying there? She only "claimed" the horses were examined? That the resulting X-rays were delibereately not done properly?

You and the other anky video posting person may not actually be on a vendetta but that is not how it presents to me.

mzpeepers
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:05 AM
I STILL want to know,ad nauseum... WHAT is it supposed to result in once the horse is in the Competition ring???


Not sure that I can answer that "correctly" but, from what I've seen, it accomplishes flashy gaits and extreme flamboyance in the show ring.
Which makes sense.....once you finally release, the horse explodes.

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:30 AM
thanks pinecone:

the 4-1/2 thoroughbred stallion's sire I was referring to has a half-million dollar stud fee, nominated to The Breeders Cup at birth, and I was addressing overmounted. We're talking fractious, expressive -- the whole nine yards. I would think in comparison a GP Dressage horse trained to respond to nuances with a world caliber rider would not feel overmounted. If so, the horse clearly wants the rider off:

****
pinecone, #619: "sm, no offense, but I can't possibly see how a person can compare the level of comfort they feel riding a safe amateur backyard horse, to an Anky or a Klimke on an international GP horse. So yes, you are most likely innocently off on the wrong track."
****

Anyway, is this the point of the exercise, being overmounted? Why be willing to accept impure gaits in competition as a result? Or as mzpeepers writes above, "the horse explodes."

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:35 AM
I'm trying to figure out why Sabine's main defense to rollkur seems to be that stupid Americans aren't capable of understanding.

Perhaps Sabine just needs to leave the backwaters and return to Europe if she dislikes the United States so much? But then again - she'd not be able to act the part of the "sophisticated European" if she did that. Maybe that's why?

hmmmm - if Anky can turn into an expert on western riding without ever spending time on a cattle ranch- I don't see why American's can't comment on FEI rules, politics and trends that affect a sport they participate in and support financially.


I've found these rollkur threads very illuminating, and there have been points made about the use of less aggressive variances of this method that may have merit. But, if you don't mind, I think I'll manage to resist the urge to haul on the curb rein to get my horse in a frame. I've always thought frames were for pictures.




"There is a lot more story behind that than what meets the 'innocent american eye'....:LOL~

There is a lot of stuff on there that is pretty laughable...but then again...for the folks from distant continents..this might seem like a blessing..:LOL!"

Ellie K
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:00 AM
SJ was vp of the dressage committee, a position which is now held by Truppa. Now SJ is a member of the (dressage) committee. Replaced is the correct word, rather than resigned.....too much typing.Again, can you cite a source for this information? According to my "sources" (the FEI Directory published each year, various other FEI documents and conversations with FEI management), the deputy chair was Stephen Clarke, until his term was up this past April, necessitating the appointment of a new deputy chair (if the chair desires one). These sources indicate Truppa was named the new deputy chair to succeed Stephen Clarke. Again, this is according to both the FEI's documents/publications and the FEI's management. So...if you can provide a more credible source than the FEI's own documents and staff, that says it was Sjef Janssen and not Stephen Clarke who was replaced/resigned/whatever, I will be happy to dismiss all of these normally credible sources as not credible. Otherwise it is just unsubstantiated gossip.

ideayoda
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:05 AM
http://www.horsesport.org/PDFS/FEI/08_04/Dressage06.pdf
(recently changed who had which positions)

4.3. Dressage
Chairman / Présidente 2001 - 2009Mme Mariette WITHAGES
Kanaallei 45
2900 SCHOTEN, BELGIUM
Tel.: private (32 36) 58 48 24
Tel.: mobile (32 475) 718 619
Fax: office (32 36) 58 01 17
E-Mail: m.withages@skynet.be

Deputy Chairman /
Président suppléant
Organisers Rep.
2005 - 2009Dr Vincenzo TRUPPA
Piazza Buonarroti 32
20145 MILANO, ITALY
Tel.: office (39 02) 480 090 55
Fax: office (39 02) 480 058 89
E-Mail: etruppa@studiotruppa.com

Members / Membres 2004 - 2008Ms Minako FURUOKA
1-6-1 Minamisenzoku
Ohta-Ku
145-0063 TOKYO, JAPAN
Tel.: private (81 3) 3728 1805
Tel.: mobile (81 90) 4078 1371
Fax: private (81 3) 3726 2569
E-Mail: minako@marny.tv

2003 - 2007
Mr Sjef JANSSEN
Bolst 13
5469 SC ERP, NETHERLANDS
Tel.: mobile (31 65) 31 20 560
Fax: office (31 41) 32 16 050
E-Mail: sjef@tref.nl

Ellie K
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:12 AM
Yes, that is obvious. The Directory is updated following each General Assembly. But that still says nothing about Sjef Janssen ever serving as deputy chair.

Noir
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:38 AM
And what are you implying there? She only "claimed" the horses were examined? That the resulting X-rays were delibereately not done properly?

You and the other anky video posting person may not actually be on a vendetta but that is not how it presents to me.

No, there's X-ray and there's X-rays. I've suffered both anlylosing spondylitis and a herniated disc myself and am very well aware that some things show up on some examination metods, and some don't, and so you need to know which to use. Professor Horst Weiler, an expert in this area, stresses the need for correct procedure with the x-ray examination.

I'm implying she said they were going to be examined, not that they had already been. As we can read in the FEI report on rollkur, they have been examined by now.

I can't take responsibility for how you comprehend my intentions. If you feel the dressage stars are threatened and viciously attacked then I guess you will see my complaints and posting videos as vicious attacks. But it's silly to make it out as I'm the big bad guy threatening poor little S&A's livelihood or something like it. Somebody said "Enjoy the meal but don't look into the kitchen". I want to show the kitchen, then eat there if you like...

T

sm
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:17 AM
yes Noir, If I'm supporting FEI events with my dollars (and I am) I want to know what I am supporting and/or contributing to.

Same for the breeders: what and/or why am I, as an adult amateur american, funding or contributing to by buying their brand as opposed to Iberians. So yes, I expect a real answer as to why the exercise as seen in the videos. And I'm **yawn** still waiting.

noir writes: "if you feel the dressage stars are threatened and viciously attacked then I guess you will see my complaints and posting videos as vicious attacks... Somebody said "Enjoy the meal but don't look into the kitchen". I want to show the kitchen, the eat there if you like..."

Erin
Jun. 16, 2006, 11:52 AM
You all can continue beating this dead horse as long as you like, but if you can't do so in a polite and respectful tone, leave. I've had it with the snarking. You all are adults -- act like it.

physical.energy
Jun. 16, 2006, 12:45 PM
I should think Japp Pott is rolling over in his grave about now.

Karoline
Jun. 16, 2006, 05:04 PM
When we speak of the top 10, where does Brentina fit in? Is she an anomaly?

And Sabine, the horse I mentioned a few posts back received a 66% his first time out at I1 with a "tough" S judge a few months ago. Not an I or O or the international dressage scene certainly, but not a backyard pony at a hick schooling show either.

Will you go to Kansas City to watch Ingrid Klimke? I think it will be interresting to see her teach.

mbm
Jun. 16, 2006, 06:07 PM
agreed - but that is just in your comfy backyard- or whereever you have your horse and you see good mid level folks doing what they do- beautiful pieces per se- but not international level dressage. I do not defend RK but I ask for respect and tolerance for those few top level riders that know how to train like that and get apparently outstanding results- because if they didn't get those results- they sure would change their method in a heart beat. So there....
This is for the top ten- not for the rest. I am a part of the rest- I ride deep and love it- I intermix it- my horses love it and I don't have an issue respecting and admiring the result that Anky presents in the ring- because ultimately her horses display more looseness and reach than the rest- and I guess most O judges are so sick and tired of watching yet another stiff backed horse suffering thru yet another GP test...have you ever sat through one and scribed one- or sat next to a judge and heard the comments- I have- ad infinitum- it is a blessing and a breath of fresh air when a GP horse enters the ring that still has a SWINGING BACK and lateral REACH and LOOSENESS written all over himself...go back to square one and watch the YH classes..that's where the whole misery starts and they are now rewarding those swingy horses...I guess it's a trend- or maybe it's how horses should look- rubbery and swingy and not wooden and stocked up - which is what classical training sadly has produced...or give me a better example...???

Sylvia Ikle- her horse is very classical- but he has a sizable tongue problem...:(


this is an interesting post...... so... you are talking about how "now" horses are being shown that are rubbery and have reach... and that it is a breath of fresh air after the stiff horses..... but......

first off.. there are several top riders that dont use rollkur (Ms McDonanld, Mr Schmidt, Ms Linsenhoff and Ms Theodorescu, come to mind) .... and i have seen their horses go and none are stiff as a board....

second: why is it that international riders/horses are held to a seperate and special standard so that the rules of dressage dont apply? why is is that a "regular" rider and horse can perform lovely correct work, and yet some international horses are given special dispensation to not adhere to the same rules?

Third: the correclty trained horses (ie "classical" ) that i have seen are not "stocked up" they are the opposite. what they do lack is that electric jolting that rk horses have.... (ie the extremeness of the movements)

it used to be that i LOVED to watch FEI tests - i wanted to grow up and do that!!! it was my dream and gave me such delight. now, mostly i am completely turned off by what i see, and i most decidely do NOT want to ride like that. There are exception of course by the riders noted above, and i am sure others.....

i guess i just dont "get" what people see in the extreme dressage. it is NOT what dressage is supposed to be.

pinecone
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:47 PM
Ingrid Klimke should be very interesting, as she is a very talented rider, assuming of course that she doesn't try to turn this into some sort of publicity ploy by taking advantage of the opportunity to cash in on the controversy of rollkur. If she sticks to training, good for her.

mbm you mention some riders you consider classical. Have you ever analyzed their work as critically as you analyze the work of known deep and/or rollkur riders? Because you would see many of the same flaws. Meaning, horses are horses and none of them are perfect, and one of the absurdities of the anti-rollkur crusade is the idea that every flaw demonstrated by a deep and/or rollkur trained horse IS THE FAULT OF THE DEEP/ROLLKUR.

pinecone
Jun. 16, 2006, 07:53 PM
it is NOT what dressage is supposed to be.


Amusing, that an admitted beginner feels comfortable making a declaration such as this. (And I would find it equally strange to see a beginner raving about how great rollkur is, lest I be accused of being a hypocrite.)

ideayoda
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:12 PM
There is always work to be addressed with any horse because we riders cannot speak 'horse' perfectly. But if we use balance (and the rules) as our guidelines then we discuss the same objectives. But if we use methods which deny (uphill)balance as their main precepts, how can we discuss the same things?

Flaws which only appear in Rk horses are the fault of that method. Flaws which are the result of other imbalances are the fault of different causes. Traditionly most causes are the timing and problematic balances of the rider, rk trys to remove those direct relationships and make the horse responsible imho. Uphoff is only on who has been honest why she uses it. The rest is the urban legand of Christian Theis.

Tonja
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:30 PM
pinecone wrote:

mbm you mention some riders you consider classical. Have you ever analyzed their work as critically as you analyze the work of known deep and/or rollkur riders? Because you would see many of the same flaws. Meaning, horses are horses and none of them are perfect, and one of the absurdities of the anti-rollkur crusade is the idea that every flaw demonstrated by a deep and/or rollkur trained horse IS THE FAULT OF THE DEEP/ROLLKUR.

The priority of those who strive to ride classically is to refine balance and communication. I haven’t heard anyone claiming that classical riders are always perfect. At times they will inadvertently disturb the horse’s balance (some more than others) but the difference is that they aren’t deliberately doing things to the horse that hinder the horse’s balance.

In the classical community it’s well understood that constraining the horse’s neck has a negative impact on balance, as the images available now clearly demonstrate.

mbm
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:34 PM
mbm you mention some riders you consider classical. Have you ever analyzed their work as critically as you analyze the work of known deep and/or rollkur riders? Because you would see many of the same flaws. Meaning, horses are horses and none of them are perfect, and one of the absurdities of the anti-rollkur crusade is the idea that every flaw demonstrated by a deep and/or rollkur trained horse IS THE FAULT OF THE DEEP/ROLLKUR.

i spoke to a few of sabines comments and i told about my feelings when i watch fei rides - and i *never* said that anyone was perfect. nor did i speak to flaws. i just do not think that the ends justifies the means.

and, i will admit: that i am so turned off by the "pressence" of certain riders/horses that i dont spend much time analyzing their rides. i get no joy from watching them. and... in the end, for *me* dressage is about feeling , art, mastery of theory etc. it is an emotional sport. so, no matter how perfect a horse can make a circle, no matter how extravegant their movement or no matter how many times it can do the correct number of steps in whatever, if it doesnt evoke a feeling of harmony, power, engaement, suppleness and a certain "at ease" of being (the idea of doing on its own what the rider asks) then i aint feeling it and it holds not interest for me.

and, for all those that are adamant that the flaws are the same - then why use rk at all????

oh, and i am a begginer in as much as, first and foremost i try to stay humble and admit that i dont know much, that said, i have ridden most of my life (since the wee age of 6), and i spent some years on a FEI schoolmaster and now i am training my young mare myself - so , yes begginer compared to some not so much compared to others :)

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:50 PM
I don't find it amusing that the second people try and discuss this - that they are told to sit in a corner lest they annoy the adults.

Please - educate the mendiants.

Please list your accomplishments, which horses you have trained to Grand Prix, in what international competitions you have competed, and what students currently under your tutelage. I find the number of expert dressage riders on this forum staggering, and I'm truly amazed you don't proudly announce your credentials to us all to shut us up.

Your "opinion" is no more valid or invalid than any other poster.


Amusing, that an admitted beginner feels comfortable making a declaration such as this. (And I would find it equally strange to see a beginner raving about how great rollkur is, lest I be accused of being a hypocrite.)

professor
Jun. 16, 2006, 08:54 PM
Uphoff is only on who has been honest why she uses it. The rest is the urban legand of Christian Theis.

Ideayoda

Everybody is very honest about it: Isabel Werth-Martin Schaudt-Kyra Kirklund-Margit Crepin-Anky van Grunsven-and so on and also all the jumping riders gave their explanations why they use this system.

Because you spend your time behind a computer typing 3000 pages every day, you have probably lost track of what is going on in the dressage world.

JSwan
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:09 PM
Hey "Professor"

You too. I'm calling you on it. Please provide your credentials. If you need to, you can email me your cirriculum vitae and I'll use my premium membership to post it.

I simply won't take your word for it - need proof. Names of horses you have trained to Grand Prix, competitions in which you have competed, students under your tutelege, etc.

I know I'm not a world class competitor, and every single person who has posted their thoughts against this method has also been honest about their credentials.

Your turn.

Your opinion is no more valid or invalid than any other poster.




Ideayoda

Everybody is very honest about it: Isabel Werth-Martin Schaudt-Kyra Kirklund-Margit Crepin-Anky van Grunsven-and so on and also all the jumping riders gave their explanations why they use this system.

Because you spend your time behind a computer typing 3000 pages every day, you have probably lost track of what is going on in the dressage world.

ideayoda
Jun. 16, 2006, 09:19 PM
Some are honest that they use it. However, the reasoning they give is that of Christian Theis. However, is that what indeed happens? When you ask HOW it can work as they say, there is usually a big argument because the biomechanics cannot support his thesis. Mudslinging of all types follow. And the downside effect on balance/gaits seems to just be ignored (by judges/riders). I spend time actually analyzing biomechanics, effects of aids, balances of the horse, tapes from 40 years of doing this, riding, experimenting, and helping people do learn to do their own analysis and learn to ride rather than accept reasoning that might be based in falacy. I want to see the good sides of everything useful, but I simply see tradeoffs not worth taking... others disagree. Fine. Perhaps if they had seen the alternatives they would have a different opinion, but that would suppose they have been around since pre-Uphoff imho.

Sannois
Jun. 16, 2006, 10:39 PM
Hey "Professor"

You too. I'm calling you on it. Please provide your credentials. If you need to, you can email me your cirriculum vitae and I'll use my premium membership to post it.

I simply won't take your word for it - need proof. Names of horses you have trained to Grand Prix, competitions in which you have competed, students under your tutelege, etc.

I know I'm not a world class competitor, and every single person who has posted their thoughts against this method has also been honest about their credentials.

Your turn.


Your opinion is no more valid or invalid than any other poster.
They will tell you they dont need to justify their credentials to the likes of us! They will come up with all sorts of reasons why they dont need to tell us anything about their riding and accomplishments.
Therefore we can draw a conclusion about the credibility. Which I think most of us already have done. :eek:

BKDressage
Jan. 21, 2009, 02:28 PM
You know this really makes me sick, and just gets me upset. ROLKUR is cruel :mad:. I had a personal situation where I spent two years on a horse...got him to third level. Super easy, and light and round to ride. I sold him 6 months ago.... the ladies trainer..not going to mention names...:mad: Used this method. I went there to visit my horse and see how they were progressing, and I teared up and couldnt stay to watch. Its quite ridiculous! The trainer never gave th horse a break! Always softer softer softer...how much DAMN softer can he be...his chin is to his chest!!! You could just tell in the horses eyes that he was trying SOOOO hard, but getting upset because he didnt understand. So n e ways...The horse is now back with me :D:D, because he delt with it for 6 months, and he couldnt take it n e more...might I mention this is the third horse she has gone thru because of this reason(ROLKUR Trainer) in the last two years...youd think shed get a clue that her trainer sucks!!! AND she loves her trainer! unbelievable!!!:confused: I do believe there is a point where you need to ask the horse for a little more than usual, BUT then once its given...u give too, and are done with it...not over and over and over again, always asking the horse for more...its not natural!

siegi b.
Jan. 21, 2009, 03:01 PM
I take it you don't know how to start your own threads but are quite familiar with the "search" function on this BB.

sm
Jan. 21, 2009, 05:00 PM
Ideayoda

Everybody is very honest about it: Isabel Werth-Martin Schaudt-Kyra Kirklund-Margit Crepin-Anky van Grunsven-and so on and also all the jumping riders gave their explanations why they use this system.

Because you spend your time behind a computer typing 3000 pages every day, you have probably lost track of what is going on in the dressage world.

Wrong on at least two counts, professor: first it's spelled Kyra Kyrklund -- no "i." Then, she clearly states she does not use rollkur:

"Kyra Kyrklund: I don’t personally use rollkür.

"Richard Davison: Why not use rollkür?

"Kyra Kyrklund: I don’t use it as I don’t understand what benefit you really get from keeping the head that low and that restricted. I prefer to ride more in a German way of riding. I think that a system shouldn’t be evaluated only on how the top horses and riders go in that system. "

source, page 19 http://www.globaldressageforum.com/images/history2006/binnenwerk_body2006.pdf

also in Eurodressage, " Kyrklund is a multiple Olympian and has trained numerous riders and horses to international Grand Prix level. She openly admits that she experiments with different training systems (though she is not a user of the rollkur)... "

source, first para http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/shows/2005/05gdf/rep6.html

merrygoround
Jan. 21, 2009, 05:06 PM
Not agin!! Quick! Get the fire extinguishers. :eek:

I agree she should have started another thread. :lol:

Foxtrot's
Jan. 21, 2009, 05:13 PM
... only if she had something new to offer to the discusson.

webmistress32
Jan. 21, 2009, 05:16 PM
bottom line : if the judges stopped awarding folks who used cruel methods to train the horses then it would stop.

look at the western pleasure, the big lick TW, etc. lots of cruel training in all disciplines.

sad but there will always be people who put winning over all else.

sm
Jan. 21, 2009, 05:23 PM
... only if she had something new to offer to the discusson.

Uh sure, take notes and follow Foxtrot's exemplary lead :rolleyes: