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Ghazzu
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:11 PM
did you donate to Morris Foundation??

Did you tell me which muscles and how? Not yet.

I'll send them a donation any road, but all you've done so far is keep repeating the pharses I've asked you to explain.
Dumb it down for me.

From what some of the other posters have said, it sounds as though what you mean is gettin a connection through the whole topline, but that's only what I guessed from what others said.

You make it sound like the neck is the object, not the conduit, as it were.

slc2
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:19 PM
"disagree with everything you say so you don't think I'm trying to flatter you or anything."

this is my whole point. that's YOUR world. you're following the cheerleader mentality, dd. when i agree with you, i'm good, i'm doing a good job, you have told me here and in pt.

since when, i ask, is agreeing with your point of view, doing a good job?

in my world, we don't agree with someone to flatter them or disagree with them to not-flatter them.

we disagree or agree because we disagree or agree, not to play games, flatter or not-flatter, but to discuss.

lstevenson
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:37 PM
those eventing accidents, those, those are ok on this bulletin board. they are just unfortunate byproducts of the glorious sport, and horses love to run and jump, it can't be that they are simply trained to do so, and every horse that rushes a jump 'loves to jump' because he's running at the jump, not because he is scared and wants to get it over, has never been trained or schooled to jump in a more controlled way or accept a half halt, not because his rider's position and aids makes him fall on his forehand so that the only way he can hope to manage the jump is by going faster, or simply because he's been trained to go at a certain pace after years and years of repetition, or because he's from an active breed of horse that tends to move quickly anyway.



:lol: :lol: :lol: OMG, thanks for the best laugh I have had in a long time.

What's the matter slc, were you afraid to post this on the other thread?

I LOVE how you are the expert on eventing now.:rolleyes: You obviously know NOTHING about it. And since you say you live in my backyard.... PLEASE come out and ride my Advanced horse. We will sell tickets! We can donate the money to your favorite charity. What do you think? Put your money where your mouth is?

Ridge Runner
Jun. 7, 2006, 03:46 PM
slc.... I merely used the term "good job" in a colloquial fashion...not to be a cheerleader. You really need to quit reading things into what I post that is not there.

DressageGuy
Jun. 7, 2006, 05:06 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: OMG, thanks for the best laugh I have had in a long time.

What's the matter slc, were you afraid to post this on the other thread?

I LOVE how you are the expert on eventing now.:rolleyes: You obviously know NOTHING about it. And since you say you live in my backyard.... PLEASE come out and ride my Advanced horse. We will sell tickets! We can donate the money to your favorite charity. What do you think? Put your money where your mouth is?

Didn't you know, slc is the master of all things equine. She has an answer for everyone on any topic, and never fails to get the last word in.

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 7, 2006, 05:26 PM
For everyone who thinks rollkur should never be done ... don't do it.

Boycott the proponents. Don't support the riders and trainers who DO do it.

Don't buy their books, don't attend their clinics.

Leave the stands when a rollkurist enters the arena.

Write their sponsors and tell them why you will not buy their products. Write them letters expressing your unhappiness with their methods. Write the sponsors of televised shows whose commercials appear before and after competitors who "do" rollkur and tell them you are boycotting their products and/or services and why.

If you find yourself showing for a judge who rewards that kind of training, halt, salute, and ask to be excused. Scratch your second ride. Otherwise, avoid shows that hire those judges and let the show management know why you are not sending an entry.

Isn't it time to take this out of the world of BB discussions and theories and into the real world where it can affect the livelihoods of individuals whose training methods are inhumane?

SGray
Jun. 7, 2006, 05:40 PM
there could be a rolkur booing section at Las Vegas --- but then again, will AvG and Sjef come to LV given the lawsuit judgement hanging over his head?

Sebastian
Jun. 7, 2006, 06:50 PM
For everyone who thinks rollkur should never be done ... don't do it.

Boycott the proponents. Don't support the riders and trainers who DO do it.

Don't buy their books, don't attend their clinics.

Leave the stands when a rollkurist enters the arena.

Write their sponsors and tell them why you will not buy their products. Write them letters expressing your unhappiness with their methods. Write the sponsors of televised shows whose commercials appear before and after competitors who "do" rollkur and tell them you are boycotting their products and/or services and why.

If you find yourself showing for a judge who rewards that kind of training, halt, salute, and ask to be excused. Scratch your second ride. Otherwise, avoid shows that hire those judges and let the show management know why you are not sending an entry.

Isn't it time to take this out of the world of BB discussions and theories and into the real world where it can affect the livelihoods of individuals whose training methods are inhumane?

Excellent idea, AllWeatherGal.
Seb :cool:

snoopy
Jun. 7, 2006, 06:54 PM
Hey if someone is beating a dog....don't do it, don't say anything. quit being their friend etc etc:confused:

Karoline
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:32 PM
This may help naming the muscles of the neck that are being discussed -even if some do not agree with the content of the site, I think the anatomy part is neutral (naming and position of muscles). I could not find any detailed anatomical illustrations:

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Diagramsgeneral/BonesMuscTransp2.gif

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/Diagramsgeneral/Onthebitanat.gif

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/RelativeElevation/RelativeElevation.gif

Stay apparatus:

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/ImagesAtlas/BookStayapparatus.jpg

physical.energy
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:35 PM
Can you imagine if everyone who disagrees with RK.... got up and walked out when AVG comes into the arena at Las Vegas.
That would make some big statement. :eek:

Sebastian
Jun. 7, 2006, 07:47 PM
Hey is someone is beating a dog....don't do it, don't say anything. quit being their friend etc etc:confused:

No one said "ignore" the issue... I believe what AllWeatherGal suggests (and I heartily second) is -- be proactive. Stop discussing it, and if anything, be HEARD outside of this bulletin board. Voice your opinion with your dollars and letters -- letting sponsers know that you disapprove/approve of who they are associating with...

It's really quite simple and easy.
Seb :cool:

etk
Jun. 7, 2006, 08:35 PM
That's 'cause its so boring over there now.

sabryant
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:39 PM
sm

thanks for your nice post! I don't mind that you disagree! Each to his own! thanks for your questions and I am glad they made some sense to you!

Ghazzu
I guess I am too "contrified" or not charismatic enough in my thought process to explain it differently. I don't know the anatomical names of the muscles and I really don't care to know them as it doesn't make a difference to me what they are called as a trainer. I do know how they work and that is all I need for my job. Sorry:(

sabryant
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:41 PM
Sabine, my friend, thank you for your post too. I am glad to have an end to this discussion! Thanks and thanks again!!

sabryant
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:41 PM
PRE...thanks for sticking up for me too. Really appreciate it!

AllWeatherGal
Jun. 7, 2006, 10:53 PM
Hey if someone is beating a dog....don't do it, don't say anything. quit being their friend etc etc:confused:

Imagine p.e's scenario. It seems a whole lot more effective than wearing your fingers to bloody pulps arguing with someone who has only ever seen rollkur in a photograph. Or is that you, too?

As Seb notes, this isn't about being a "friend," this is about dollars, cents, euros and whatever HARD currency is out there. You want to make something more than unpopular? Make it cost-prohibitive.

AVG doesn't give a damn what you post about her methods on a BB, no matter how popular the BB nor how vehement your posts, nor how many people agree with you. Emptying the stands, however, is another matter.

That is *IF* you really want to change things.

Otherwise, please carry on as you were!

sabryant
Jun. 8, 2006, 12:02 AM
I'm asking. Again. Please provide photographic evidence of horses whose riders are using Rollkur - in which the horses are moving with relaxation, ease, and whose face displays no signs of stress or fear or resignation.

I have not seen any. And I took the liberty of looking all over the freakin' Internet.

this is, just, switch and bait...someone put up photo's earlier in this thread and I said what I thought about them then.

physical.energy
Jun. 8, 2006, 12:29 AM
Ahhh Geez, I always manage to get myself into trouble. So I might as well enjoy. :winkgrin: Who's meeting me in the VIP lounge for a bevy during AVG's ride?

JSwan
Jun. 8, 2006, 06:51 AM
Ghazzu
I guess I am too "contrified" or not charismatic enough in my thought process to explain it differently. I don't know the anatomical names of the muscles and I really don't care to know them as it doesn't make a difference to me what they are called as a trainer. I do know how they work and that is all I need for my job. Sorry:(


Actually, I think that if you are going to set yourself out to be an expert on a subject, that you know enough about the anatomy and physiology of the horse to engage in practices designed to build certain muscles that you know are the absolute best and most perfect ones for dressage, continue to hold yourself out to be an expert when questioned by a veterinarian and fellow rider, as well as a couple of other folks here who if you knew who they were - would be embarrassed that you even opened your mouth - and then decry our lack of knowledge when we disagree - yes -I think the very least you could do is know the names of the muscles you are so expertly contorting.

You see, in other professions this would be called malpractice. You call it "training". I'm merely suspicious when people who hold themselves out to be "experts", when questioned, can't come up with the goods.

The phrase is called "bait and switch". And it is not applicable to what I requested, since I did not bait anyone and then switch anything.

I didn't ask your opinion of any photos. This thread is not about you. I asked for "photographic evidence of horses whose riders are using Rollkur - in which the horses are moving with relaxation, ease, and whose face displays no signs of stress or fear or resignation." I did not ask for your opinion.

sm
Jun. 8, 2006, 07:28 AM
Oh Lordy, sabryant is just stating her experience as well as what her trainers taught her. What are all the personal attacks about, I don't remember her attacking anyone for "not getting it."

So your experience is different -- hooray!!!! Live and let live. This whole BB is about sharing experiences, not about staring into a pool and admiring your own reflection. Oh wait, that's the lyrics from a Bob Dylan song, I almost remember it...

If one looks at upper level international dressage horses they are very built up in this area. My dressage trainer is EXTREMELY accomplished and never learned the names to muscle masses. Funny thing though, sabryant is educated enough NOT TO BE RUDE to people on this board.

I'm so totally against the OP photos, for the record. My flame suit is on ---- fire away.

JSwan
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:21 AM
It's not personal - I don't know these people and couldn't pick them out of a lineup. Having followed each post on each thread about this subject - I think sabryant et al have dished it out pretty well too. Doesn't bother me.

I do take exception to people holding themselves out to be experts on a subject and state that we should believe them, or acknowledge their expertise or superior knowledge - yet when questioned to provide backup - cannot. I don't expect a horse trainer to have the level of knowledge as a veterinarian. But being dismissive and equivocating when under scrutiny? That tells me is that the person holding themselves out to be an expert may not be. And to me, it means the information is suspect. Or, to be fair, the person lacks confidence or doesn't yet have the ability to express themselves clearly - perfectly natural. However, I still can't rely upon their word until I have confidence they know what they're talking about. So far - Ghazzu and ideayoda, being who and what they are - have more of my confidence.

If it's rude - I'll just say that dismissing a licensed veterinarians question is rude as well. We'll all get over it if we put our big girl panties on.

sm
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:28 AM
She did answer as best she could.

You received her answer as of your post 272: Originally Posted by sabryant: "Ghazzu I guess I am too "contrified" or not charismatic enough in my thought process to explain it differently. I don't know the anatomical names of the muscles and I really don't care to know them as it doesn't make a difference to me what they are called as a trainer. I do know how they work and that is all I need for my job. Sorry"

This is not a courtroom, and certianly no one here is obligated to answer rude and demeaning questions. Her answer you do have.

Where did she state her opinion was expert and the only valid one on the planet, I believe she indicated she had international trainers teach her this method? And yes please, we're waiting on you: "We'll all get over it if we put our big girl panties on."

Noir
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:35 AM
Sorry for veering off topic again, but exactly what is it that the trapezius can do for selfcarriage? Why is a well developed trapezius muscle a good sign of a horse carrying himself right?

The trapezius connects the top of the withers to the mid-spine of the scapula. A muscle can only draw 2 body parts closer to each other. If trapezius works hard it means it pulls the top of the withers DOWN towards the spine of the scapula, actually depressing the withers.

The muscles that fill out the neck so nicely are completely other muscles. The complexius muscle group, for example, with the semispinalis developing like a thick, even loaf along the whole topline will gladly fill out that dip in front of the withers, if the horse is ridden with a correctly telescoping neck gesture, and not curled in. Mind y'all, som TB have very prominent withers and will never really lose the dip no matter how well trained they are.

Theresa

sm
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:43 AM
thanks noir, I always thought self carriage had very little to do with the neck muscles there, unless you're talking a fixed-jammed-in frame, like we do see when Sal is asked for a freewalk.

And the diagrams on muscle and skeleton are a big help too, Karolines #262, they actually might be nice posted at the barn where I board.

Sebastian
Jun. 8, 2006, 01:46 PM
Ahhh Geez, I always manage to get myself into trouble. So I might as well enjoy. :winkgrin: Who's meeting me in the VIP lounge for a bevy during AVG's ride?

I will be happy to join you, p.e. :)

Seb :cool:

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 02:01 PM
Sorry for veering off topic again, but exactly what is it that the trapezius can do for selfcarriage? Why is a well developed trapezius muscle a good sign of a horse carrying himself right?

The trapezius connects the top of the withers to the mid-spine of the scapula. A muscle can only draw 2 body parts closer to each other. If trapezius works hard it means it pulls the top of the withers DOWN towards the spine of the scapula, actually depressing the withers.

The muscles that fill out the neck so nicely are completely other muscles. The complexius muscle group, for example, with the semispinalis developing like a thick, even loaf along the whole topline will gladly fill out that dip in front of the withers, if the horse is ridden with a correctly telescoping neck gesture, and not curled in. Mind y'all, som TB have very prominent withers and will never really lose the dip no matter how well trained they are.

Theresa

I think it's right *on* topic...

JSwan
Jun. 8, 2006, 02:15 PM
I did allow that she tried to communicate.

Ug- - read all the threads... not just this one - I'm not going to read them again. The gist I hear of people who perform/teach Rollkur - again and again is that the people who disapprove of the method are too provincial, too young to
understand, but if a young prerson does approve of Rollkur youth is lauded - but the masters are too old and staid, or if they were old - it was ok because they did approve Rollkur on page 45 of a book written 30 years ago, or that we need to study in Europe to understand the argument because we're just prudish Americans- knowledge of anatomy is not necessary to understand how the anatomy works - yadda yadda. No substance.

I'm just not seeing it. If I did - I'd reverse my position on Rollkur and eat my hat. Happily and without rancor or resentment. Buuut - sorry - after reading and digesting everything that's been written - pro and con - I'm even more opposed to this method of "training" of dressage horses.

I once took my old Jeep to a mechanic to replace the engine. I questioned the mechanic about his qualifications to perform the work on the vehicle, if he had the parts, the time, the equipment, etc. After he called a couple of the parts "thingy", I decided to take my Jeep elsewhere because I didn't think the guy knew what he was doing.

Did he? Perhaps. But I didn't have confidence in his ability to perform the tasks because he did not appear to know how things worked and what they were called.

I think the horses deserve, at the very least, similar consideration.





She did answer as best she could.

You received her answer as of your post 272: Originally Posted by sabryant: "Ghazzu I guess I am too "contrified" or not charismatic enough in my thought process to explain it differently. I don't know the anatomical names of the muscles and I really don't care to know them as it doesn't make a difference to me what they are called as a trainer. I do know how they work and that is all I need for my job. Sorry"

This is not a courtroom, and certianly no one here is obligated to answer rude and demeaning questions. Her answer you do have.

Where did she state her opinion was expert and the only valid one on the planet, I believe she indicated she had international trainers teach her this method? And yes please, we're waiting on you: "We'll all get over it if we put our big girl panties on."

sabryant
Jun. 8, 2006, 02:51 PM
I will try once more thanks to the help of Karoline's post of the anatomy.

In the third link down, it says that if the muscle group in front of the withers, the cervical trapezius, is in contraction it will block collection and relative elevation. When there is a dip in front of the wither that is contraction. If this muscle group is stetched, developed and stablized then the hind bridge of muscles, the superficial medial gluteal muscle which allow the hind leg to come forward, will have a steady place in which to step.

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 03:52 PM
The trapezius connects the top of the withers to the mid-spine of the scapula. A muscle can only draw 2 body parts closer to each other. If trapezius works hard it means it pulls the top of the withers DOWN towards the spine of the scapula, actually depressing the withers.


Actually, the action of the trapezius is to elevate the shoulder and draw the shoulder forwards or backwards (depeinding upon which portion is contracting.)
It has its origins on the nuchal ligament for the cervical portion, and on the supraspinous ligament for the thoracic portion, and it inserts on the scapular spine.
I suppose you could look at it as pulling the withers down, but it's a bit of a stretch (no pun intended).

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:00 PM
I will try once more thanks to the help of Karoline's post of the anatomy.

In the third link down, it says that if the muscle group in front of the withers, the cervical trapezius, is in contraction it will block collection and relative elevation. When there is a dip in front of the wither that is contraction. If this muscle group is stetched, developed and stablized then the hind bridge of muscles, the superficial medial gluteal muscle which allow the hind leg to come forward, will have a steady place in which to step.

What do you mean by "stabilized"? (Not being snarky; I don't know quite how you're using the term.)

And there's a *lot* more muscle involved in flexing the hip than the superficial gluteals! :D

sm
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:05 PM
okay, I'm not too in over my head, LOL, but re post 282:

If it's simply forwards and backwards movement, why do the thoroughbred race horses have this dip? Wouldn't it be more like the third chart indicates, regarding elevation and collection? Which isn't in demand on a racehorse, elevation and collection makes for a real slow horse. And racehorses have lots of developed muscle to move forwards and back:

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/Dingo...uscTransp2.gif

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/Dingo...thebitanat.gif

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/Dingo...eElevation.gif

I have a thing about TBs and dressage, so this is of interest to me.

lukas1987
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:30 PM
Just linking to two short articles to help further explain what sabryant is trying to discuss.

http://dressage.ponyclub.org/Articles.htm#Sling

Just above the sling muscle section is a short article about the trapezius cervicalis. From that portion:


The trapezius must stretch forward and down. To do this the horse must be stretching for the bit. The horse needs his head and neck for balance, but also to stretch his spine open, and also to allow his hind legs to come under his body.


When these sling muscles contract, the trunk and the withers are pulled upward between the horse�s shoulder blades, thus elevating the trunk and the withers relative to the croup.
Next article:


http://www.equine-sport-therapy.co.uk/mechanics.htm


We effectively have a circle of muscles running from the poll along the back, over the quarters and down to the hocks. A problem with any of these muscles within this circle effectively breaks the circle and impaired function or action results.
The trapezius muscle which forms part of the circle sits directly above the muscles of the shoulder - a problem in the trapezius thus eventually affects these muscles of movement, thereby visibly shortening the horse's stride.

The way it was explained to me is that because the horse has no clavicle and the shoulders are suspended by the muscles, you must develop these muscles as noted above in numerous other posts. I was also told that there must be no impedance in these muscles thus "developing a bridge for the traffic to run"; ie, your halfhalts, etc., meet no resistance. This coincides with what the equine sport therapy article discusses about the circle of muscles and not breaking the circle. Okay, I have to get back to work now.

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:33 PM
I will try once more thanks to the help of Karoline's post of the anatomy.

In the third link down, it says that if the muscle group in front of the withers, the cervical trapezius, is in contraction it will block collection and relative elevation. .

I'm not sure that there isn't some sort of typo in that diagram.
It says the "cervical trapezius (Contraction will block collection) connects to the ribs under shoulder blade."

Certainly any loss of fluid movement of muscles is going to block collection.

But I've just spent a half hour with a whole pile of anatomy texts trying to see what she might be talking about in terms of the connection to the ribs, and I can't find any way that could be the case, since the trapezius comes down over the shoulder blade. (I'd love to see an explanation of it, if it isn't an error.) All I can think of is that she might be considering fascial connections of some sort, but you can certainly make the argument that all fascia is connected, ultimately.

I've attached a cross sectional diagram from Popesko's Atlas, don't know how well it will come through, but the muscle numbered 4 is the trapezius, and the white structure labelled 10 is the scapula. As you can see, the muscle is "on top" of the scapula, and the scapula is over the ribs, so the trapezius can't be connected to the ribs.
This one is at the level of the 6th thoracic vertebra.
If it comes through, I'll try to send one that is slightly more cranial , which also shows the superficial nature of the trapezius.

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:48 PM
okay, I'm not too in over my head, LOL, but re post 282:

If it's simply forwards and backwards movement, why do the thoroughbred race horses have this dip?


Ah, but it's not just backwards and forwards. It also elevates the shoulder. so it makes sense that a dressage horse, which works in a collected manner, would need to develop the portion of the trapezius that elevates the shoulder, while the TB racehorse, very much on the forehand, is more backwards/forwards.

And part of it is, as others have said in this thread, conformational.



Wouldn't it be more like the third chart indicates, regarding elevation and collection? Which isn't in demand on a racehorse, elevation and collection makes for a real slow horse. And racehorses have lots of developed muscle to move forwards and back:

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/Dingo...uscTransp2.gif

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/Dingo...thebitanat.gif

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/Dingo...eElevation.gif

I have a thing about TBs and dressage, so this is of interest to me.

sm
Jun. 8, 2006, 04:54 PM
Ghazzu and lukas1987, thank you, I have my reading cut out for me.

It is of interest to me to build this muscle area on TBs without RK. Perhaps the Forward Down Out stretch is of use, but first I have to understand and read up on info posted.

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 05:11 PM
Quote:
The trapezius must stretch forward and down. To do this the horse must be stretching for the bit. The horse needs his head and neck for balance, but also to stretch his spine open, and also to allow his hind legs to come under his body.




The way it was explained to me is that because the horse has no clavicle and the shoulders are suspended by the muscles, you must develop these muscles as noted above in numerous other posts. I was also told that there must be no impedance in these muscles thus "developing a bridge for the traffic to run"; ie, your halfhalts, etc., meet no resistance. This coincides with what the equine sport therapy article discusses about the circle of muscles and not breaking the circle. Okay, I have to get back to work now.

The trapezius does help to attach the shoulder to the trunk, but the main support comes from the serratus ventralis, the pectorals, the brachiocephalicus, and the omotransversarius.

I certainly agree that the trapezius needs to be supple and relaxed--remember, with muscles, stretching is a *passive* thing. So you wouldn't want them muscle-bound like a Schwarzanneger.

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 05:14 PM
Ghazzu and lukas1987, thank you, I have my reading cut out for me.

It is of interest to me to build this muscle area on TBs without RK. Perhaps the Forward Down Out stretch is of use, but first I have to understand and read up on info posted.
Hilary Clayton has some great stuff.
If you can find it, though it's a bit dated, "The Horse:Structure and Movement" by Smythe, revised by Goody, is useful as well.

And the Coloring Atlas of Equine Anatomy is a good relatively inexpensive reference.

Karoline
Jun. 8, 2006, 05:21 PM
This is the article the Sling quote came from. This is excellent and explains a lot. I need to read it a few times to let it sink in:

http://cvm.msu.edu/Dressage/Upload/Clayton%20archives%20for%20WWW/USDF_Sept04.pdf

I would recommend everyone spend some time visiting: http://cvm.msu.edu/Dressage/ there is an amazing trove of information from biting to biomechanic to lameness and horse development. Very complete.

Note, I dont know how to bold with the new format or do quotes.

Extract:

""Role of the Muscles

Self-carriage is achieved through controlled tension in appropriate muscle groups. You may have heard of the “muscle ring”: the circular group of muscles that control longitudinal suppleness and roundness of the vertebral column through the horse’s back and neck. Tension in the abdominal and sublumbar muscles maintains the roundness of the back. The abdominal muscles encase the abdomen from pelvis to ribcage and sternum, and contain the viscera within the abdomen. Contraction of these muscles increases pressure within the abdomen to “stiffen” the trunk and to assist in flexing, bending, and rotating the thoracolumbar region.

The sublumbar muscles are located directly beneath the lumbar vertebrae,running from the underside of the vertebrae to the pelvis and femur. When these muscles contract, they also contribute to the roundness of the back and to engagement of the hind limbs.

The importance of the abdominal and sublumbar muscles is well recognized. Less well understood is the significant role played by the muscles in the upper part of the front limbs, which attach those limbs to the body.

Tension in these muscles controls the height of the withers by suspending the trunk between the horse’s shoulder blades.

A major anatomical difference between horses and humans is that horse lacks a clavicle (collarbone). Your clavicle forms part of your shoulder girdle, which attaches your arms to your body. Without a clavicle, the horse has no bony connection between his front limbs and his trunk. Instead, strong muscles connect the inside of his shoulder blades to his rib cage and
act like a sling to suspend his thorax between his two front limbs. Muscles that play a major role in this process include the serratus ventralis (see illustration above) and the pectoral muscles.

These muscles are referred to collectively as the “sling muscles.” When these sling muscles contract, the trunk and the withers are pulled upward between the horse’s shoulder blades, thus elevating the trunk and the withers relative to the croup. When the sling muscles relax, the witherssink between the shoulder blades, elevation of the forehand is lost, and the horse appears “down in the withers.”

One of the goals of dressage training is to teach the horse to use his sling muscles to raise his withers and to maintain this raised position throughout the stride.Tone in the sling muscles increases with correct training. As a result, some horses grow a little taller at the withers in the first few months after starting work under saddle, as the sling muscles become stronger. Conversely, if a horse is laid up for a long period, the sling muscles tend to lose their strength and the horse may shrink a little.

Locomotion

The sling muscles are particularly important in those gaits with an aerial phase: trot, canter, and passage. In these gaits, the horse bounces off the ground into a moment of suspension, during which all four limbs are airborne. His body is highest in the middle of the aerial phase, after which it descends. In the diagonal stance phase that follows, the downward motion of the trunk must be slowed and then reversed, causing the horse to rise into the next aerial phase. The limb muscles act as springs: They absorb concussion as the horse’s body descends, then rebound to bounce him off the ground into the next aerial phase. The sling muscles “catch” the trunk, slowing its downward motion, then reverse the direction of movement and generate upward
propulsion.

As training progresses, the sling muscles become stronger. They can hold the horse’s withers higher throughout the stance phase, especially during those stance phases when his trunk would normally sink between his shoulders.

This phenomenon is an important component of the mechanics of self-carriage. In association with the stronger action of the sling muscles, there is a change in the way the front limbs push against the ground. An untrained horse’s hooves remain grounded as his body weight rolls forward over his limbs, with both the front and the hind limbs contributing to providing forward propulsion.

In contrast, the well-trained horse gains most of his forward propulsion from the hind limbs. The front limbs act as propulsive struts to push his forehand upward, rather like a pole vaulter’s pole. Instead of pushing the horse forward, the thrust from the front limbs is directed upward to elevate the forehand,thereby pulling the front limb off the ground soon after it passes the vertical position. Acting in cooperation with the sling muscles, the muscles of the front limbs ensure that the forehand stays elevated throughout the stride.

Riding for Self-Carriage

It is easy to feel the elevation of the forehand when you ride a horse that is in self-carriage. By giving a half-halt early in the stance phase, before the horse’s trunk sinks to its lowest point between his shoulders, you facilitate the uphill orientation of his trunk, which in turn encourages him to compress the joints of his hind limbs and to maintain his elevation in front. In the trot, the horse’s body is lowest in the middle of the diagonal stance phase, so the half-halt should be given soon after the diagonal limb pair contacts the ground, not during the middle or later part of the stance phase,when it would tend to put him on the forehand.

In the canter, the lowest point in the stride is during the diagonal stance phase. The half-halt should coincide with the touching down of the diagonal limb pair, which is the second beat of the stride. A half-halt given at this time encourages the horse to push backward and upward with his front limbs and to maintain tension in his sling muscles. This combination of actions keeps his withers lifted and discourages him from rolling over his forehand.

A horse moving in self-carriage gives the appearance that his front limbs are moving in front of his body. In the collected trot, his front hooves leave the ground soon after his limbs pass the vertical position. In the collected canter, the limb to watch is the leading front limb, which lifts off just after it passes the vertical position. A consequence of the elevation of the forehand is that diagonal dissociation increases, meaning that the hind hoof contacts the ground before the diagonal front hoof. When a horse’s forehand is elevated, his front hoof does not reach the ground until the joints of his diagonal hind limb have been compressed. This dissociation is evident in the illustration on page 15 of the horse in self-carriage.

In the past, the role of the horse’s front limbs in self-carriage has not always been fully appreciated or described. The McPhail Center’s findings are not intended to imply that the hind limbs are not also very important in establishing self-carriage. The joints of the hind limbs play a crucial role by compressing to lower the haunches during weight-bearing, which increases
the relative elevation of the forehand. It is the combination of front- and hindlimb actions that ultimately results in the highest level of collection. ""

ideayoda
Jun. 8, 2006, 05:39 PM
Building the muscles in front of the withers and the topline come from self carriage, this means the flexors/extensors work rhythmically and keep the neck lifted and out to the hand. The topline carries the horse up and out, and the back and tail swing. That is taxing on the horse however, and also why the horse must also be encouraged to chew the reins from the hand and be able to go longer/lower as well as offer greater flexion when the hindlegs all work and create an uphill posture. The hyoid appartus is made to keep the chest lifted and neck arched.

Taking the horse excessively into (hyper)flexion....too low, too short, too curled all cause the underneck to support the horse, and we see the horse wider at the poll then as well. The neck is actually shorter because the neck is curled. That posture also puts extreme stress on the nuchal ligament which is not meant to remain in a stretched posture. In addition, when the flexion is changed left and right in this deep posture it is forced over the extensions of the vertebral bodies in an abrasive way. The hyoid apparatus is made voide by these actions.

Nancys book will soon come out. It is great. Not only does it show the muscles, but will come with a cd showing the movement of all the muscles in each of the gaits, and reveals the optimal time to give aids then as well. Nancy started this project almost 15 years ago using a real horse with points on it, then let the horse lead the study. As computers improved so did the ability to show us the details based upon a live horse. No suppositions of what it, just what is. So losses of balance, hyperflexions, etc all showed their clear effects upon the movement. In international horse studies she is very well respected for the depth of her work.

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 06:07 PM
Nancys book will soon come out. It is great. Not only does it show the muscles, but will come with a cd showing the movement of all the muscles in each of the gaits, and reveals the optimal time to give aids then as well. Nancy started this project almost 15 years ago using a real horse with points on it, then let the horse lead the study. As computers improved so did the ability to show us the details based upon a live horse. No suppositions of what it, just what is. So losses of balance, hyperflexions, etc all showed their clear effects upon the movement. In international horse studies she is very well respected for the depth of her work.

I'm waiting eagerly. She does a lot of really cool stuff.

mbm
Jun. 8, 2006, 08:24 PM
this discussion has become interesting :)

re: sabyrant's riding methods. i still cant tell is s/he is talking about FDO (nose ifv) or deep where the nose is BTV.

i am reading an article "FUNCTIONAL ANATOMY OF THE HORSE – The Back"
By Dr. Gerd Heuschmann, DVM, and its is very interesting.... (http://www.dressagequebec.com/pages/anatomy_of_the_horse___the_backpag.html) i think this was posted here earlier in the thread....

also, i just want to say that while i appreciate Hillary Claytons work, i am suspect of many of her findings because she uses horses that are currently winning and assuming that they are correct. so that means that if say, a top horse has DAP Clayton assumes that horses if trained properly will show DAP and that it is a good thing. Also she concluded that because some winning horses dont transfer weight onto its hind legs in piaffe then horses dont need to transfer weight to their hind ends to do a proper piaffe.

i think that her findings would be more believable if she had used horses from many years and many different training methods. instead of just the current batch of winning horses (which MANY people find incorrect)

i think that her work is also adding to the mis-information out there - it is amazing what people will say about DAP - they will even go so far as to purchase a horse because it shows DAP!

I am looking forward to the Nancy's book :)

sabryant
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:09 PM
Some nice posts...I'm so dyslexic, it took me nearly an hour and half to read it all and like Karoline, I would have to reread several times to get the essence of it. Reading all of the anatomical names is like Russian to me...mostly I was rushin' over them. Mostly, I do it by feel though my students tell me that I am good at explaining it, evidently, I'm not that good and they are just being nice. Anyway...off subject but what new amendment are we about to add to the U.S. constitution?

mjs
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:21 PM
[quote=mbm]this discussion has become interesting :)

I'll second that!!

Ghazzu
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:35 PM
Some nice posts...I'm so dyslexic, it took me nearly an hour and half to read it all and like Karoline, I would have to reread several times to get the essence of it. Reading all of the anatomical names is like Russian to me...mostly I was rushin' over them. Mostly, I do it by feel though my students tell me that I am good at explaining it, evidently, I'm not that good and they are just being nice. Anyway...off subject but what new amendment are we about to add to the U.S. constitution?

anatomy is next to impossible without pictures, and difficult without real animals.
I expect you are in the same position vis-a-vis explaining to me what you are talking about without being able to demonstrate.

sabryant
Jun. 8, 2006, 11:44 PM
Ghauzzu

By stable, I mean that they (those trap muscles) must, esentially, become your hands. They still move up and down, and in connection with the hind bridge part, but they need to be fixed so that the horse steps into them and not always against the bit. If there was a typo in the illustration, it should be to take the two L's out of the Collection and replace them with two N's.


SM
I just bet that if the race horse trainers took the time to develop the top line, the horses would have a bigger stride and travel more across the ground rather than into the ground. Probably, stay sounder too. It would not be cost effective, however, so it would never happen. I saw Secretariat, once when I was in Kentucky. He was pretty much built uphill. Then again, I saw John Henry who is built way downhill. I think a lot of HEART makes a difference for those freak horses who win dispite anything!

sabryant
Jun. 9, 2006, 12:21 AM
One last thing I feel compelled to say before I get off this machine, you can build self carraige in a deep frame too. It is done in the exact same way as though the horse was up and out. It is harder but it does put the muscles in the right place...building the trap muscles in such a way that the reins are longer and the neck is not so short. Also, to allow the horse not to suffer the hanging of the riders hands.

claire
Jun. 9, 2006, 12:28 AM
I just bet that if the race horse trainers took the time to develop the top line, the horses would have a bigger stride ... I saw Secretariat, once when I was in Kentucky. He was pretty much built uphill. Then again, I saw John Henry who is built way downhill. I think a lot of HEART makes a difference for those freak horses who win dispite anything!

sabryant, Just had to add to this (John Henry is my all-time Favorite Horse :D )

Some interesting trivia re:stride length
Longest is Man O'War/28 ft.
Next is JOHN HENRY/25.5 ft.
The ugly downhill-built scrapper with the HUGE heart!
THEN is Secretariet/24 ft.

Thanks to everyone for all the interesting research and posts about developing muscles...THIS is what I come to COTH for!!!! :yes:

Sabine
Jun. 9, 2006, 12:35 AM
sabryant, Just had to add to this (John Henry is my all-time Favorite Horse :D )

Some interesting trivia re:stride length
Longest is Man O'War/28 ft.
Next is JOHN HENRY/25.5 ft.
The ugly downhill-built scrapper with the HUGE heart!
THEN is Secretariet/24 ft.

Thanks to everyone for all the interesting research and posts about developing muscles...THIS is what I come to COTH for!!!! :yes:


Very good stuff from everyone and Sab- you are so right on with your description of the muscle development in front of the withers...it was like reading something I could not put in words but knew.
BTW- had a Danish WB with a dip in front that completely vanished after 12 month of riding reasonably deep and classical mixed, varying the frame but spending lots of time DEEP.
So it can be eliminated...the horse has a better base of strength- strong neckset and natural position and much improved gaits...

akrogirl
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:05 AM
Ahhh Geez, I always manage to get myself into trouble. So I might as well enjoy. :winkgrin: Who's meeting me in the VIP lounge for a bevy during AVG's ride?

Coming into this discussion late, but hubby and I will be in Vegas again next year (jumping and dressage); I doubt if anyone will let us into the VIP lounge though, lol.

I am well aware of the Anky controversy, but could someone enlighten me as to which top FEI riders do NOT use RK?

physical.energy
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:24 AM
outside the VIP lounge;)

Karoline
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:36 AM
http://horse.lifetips.com/

Build a Stronger Bridge

By Sue Blinks with Beth Baumert


Olympian Sue Blinks discusses developing your horse’s topline so it serves as a suspension bridge of musculature, making self-carriage possible.

Successful dressage riders, regardless of their system, are able to develop the horse’s topline so it serves as a suspension bridge of musculature from the hindquarters through the back and the base of the neck to the horse’s poll. With the benefit of this bridge, the horse appears to lift his rider up through the withers and the saddle area, and the rider swings with the horse’s back. Some riders – including some who are competing at top level – don’t understand this bridge, but once a riders has felt it, he never wants to live without it. It is the Holy Grail that the rider searches for in every ride. It is the ideal for which we strive.

This ideal skeletal and muscular structure of the horse channels the power of his hindquarters and allows its energy to travel without restriction through the body to the rider’s hand. When the horse has this bridge of muscle, work is much easier for both horse and rider because the bridge mechanically enables the rider to recycle his horse’s energy with half halts that engage the hindquarters to a position where self-carriage requires less effort.

Building the Bridge

In riding, there are many variables that are like pieces of a giant jigsaw puzzle. In your building –a-bridge puzzle, there are rider pieces, horse conformation pieces, horse reaction pieces, interpretation-of-aids pieces, temperament pieces and your horse’s heart or his willingness–to-please pieces. All of the physical, mental and emotional puzzle pieces interact to create different possibilities for making work easy or complicated for the horse.

In this article, we’ll look at all of the pieces of the bridge-building puzzle. First, I’ll outline the physical pieces that are necessary for the building your horses’ bridge of muscle. They include:

1. Impulsion is the input of energy that travels from the horse’s hind legs and reaches (or does not reach) the rider’s hand. It is the source of power that is necessary to create and allow the bridge to form and extend to the bit. The rider needs to have impulsion or released energy in order to direct it through the body and then recycle it with half halts that create roundness. Unless the horse’s hindquarters are poorly conformed or some sort of pain is involved, impulsion depends on the reaction the riders gets from using his forward-driving aids.

2. The energy is then channeled through the horse’s back and the first third of the neck in front of the withers - or the base of the neck. This is a common weak link in the bridge because energy often has difficulty traveling through this part of the horse’s body. We want to see a topline that is a continuous band of muscle reaching from the shoulder all the way to the poll. This width at the base of the neck is an indication of the strength of the bridge as it reaches from the hindquarters and continues under the saddle to the neck. The muscles in front of the withers should be as wide or wider than the muscles closer toward the poll, and the muscles under the neck are soft and loose (see illustration).

Oftentimes when the development of the horse is wrong, the muscles in front of the withers are narrow and they become wider halfway up. If the width at the base of the neck is not there, it’s quite difficult or impossible for a bridge to exist. However, if it is there, it doesn’t necessarily mean there is a bridge, but it’s an indication that you are set up for success. Development of the base of the neck depends partially on the placement of the neck relative to the shoulder and its conformation and shape, which we’ll discuss in a little while.

Illustration 1: Left, a horse with a correctly developed topline will have muscles in front of the withers that are as wide or wider than the muscles closer to the poll, and the muscles under the neck are soft and loose. Right, oftentimes when the development of the horse is wrong, the muscles in front of the withers are narrow and they become wider halfway up. If the width at the base of the neck is not there, it´s difficult or impossible for a bridge to exist. © Sandy Rabinowitz.

3. The energy then continues from the base of the neck as the horse ‘steps through the poll.” I use this term to describe the physical attitude of the horse’s head and neck necessary for creation of the bridge. Imagine a horse as he stands in his stall and looks expectantly into his fee bucket (see illustration 20. He shapes his neck in an arch and has an element of reach in his stance. That’s the look for a horse that is ‘stepping thought the poll”. His neck actually lifts up and becomes rounder in order for him to look in the bucket. He extends his upper muscles, and his under muscles soften naturally. He adopts the posture himself as opposed to occasions when a rider closes the angle of the poll with his hands to bring the horse on or behind the vertical. When the horse is stepping through he poll, he allows his rider to position him to the left or the right without resistance or excess neck bend or shoulder displacement. Once the rider has positioned his horse through the poll, he can soften the inside rein and the horse won’t lose his positioning to the inside. When the horse is truly stepping through the poll, he allows the aids to travel through the neck and jaw to the next step, which is…

4. Stepping to the rider’s hand. The horse must step honestly toward the contact. There are a number of reasons why a horse may have difficulty stepping to the hand. He may be lacking some of the previous three requirements: impulsion, connection of muscle at the base of the neck or soft suppleness through the poll. Perhaps he has teeth problems, or he may have a negative concept about contact because he has been ridden in a way that makes him afraid. of the bit. If the horse has a poor shape of the neck, it also will be harder for the energy to reach the hand. The more that the horse is soft in the rider’s hand, the easier it is to come to the next step, which is…

5. Recycling the energy with half halts. When you have created the impulsion, your horse’s neck is positioned so that the muscles at the base of his neck form a connection; your horse is reaching and stepping through the poll and the energy is received without any resistance in the hand. What next? I use the term “qualify” to explain what happens when the energy reaches your hand. The rider drives forward toward a “waiting” (or recycling) outside rein that qualifies and recycles the energy in a half halt. This causes the horse to step more under himself with his hind legs (closer to the bit and more toward his centre of gravity) and he becomes rounder through his body. One must of the feeling that the horse steps through the base of his neck toward the rider’s hand with each half halt. With every correct answer the horse gives the rider, the rider releases the aids as s reward. The rider determines how much collection he wants by repeating the half halts one on top of another like coats of paint. On the other hand, with fewer half halts, the rider may allow the horse to keep stepping forward past the hand so the energy keeps going out the front door into a medium or extended pace. Regardless, the more the horse is correct in all aspect of ‘bridge building’ the more his energy can be recycled without resistance.

The Germans use the word Durchlaessigkeit to mean that the horse’s energy and the rider’s aids travel in a continuous circuit without resistance in any part of the body. Americans often use the word ‘throughness’ to describe this ideal state in which the rider can influence the horse with ease. When the horse is durchlaessig or through, the half halts can form him into a ‘beach ball’ shape in which he can be very flexible and elastic. His topline becomes very round and he lifts up his belly, raises his withers, and softens the under-neck muscles without resistance.

Visual of the Ideal Half Halt

The result of an ideal half halt or a perfect transition is the horse rebundling – or lifting up the shoulders and the back – becoming rounder and stepping toward the rider’s hands in more a beach ball shape with increased engagement of the hind legs.

Illustration 2: Imagine a horse as he stands in his stall and looks expectantly into his feed bucket. He shapes his neck in an arch and there´s an element of reach in his stance. That´s the look of a horse that is "stepping through the poll." When the horse is truly "stepping through the poll," he allows the aids to travel through the neck and jaw. © Sandy Rabinowitz.


A Knowledge of Half Halts

Once the horse is round and through, his rider needs to consciously create a knowledge within his mount of transitions and half halts so he understands how to respond to them correctly. We teach young horses half halts through transitions between gaits. When they’re well developed, the horse can do a transition with changing the gait – that is, he transitions in and out of more increased collection, In the process of creating this knowledge, the horse will certainly give some incorrect responses to half halts and transitions and the bridge will break for one of tow reasons:

1. Sometimes, because riders are human, they want to use their hands too strongly in the half halts or in downward transitions.

2. Perhaps one or more physical aspects of the bridge that we’ve been discussing aren’t strong enough.


The result is that every time the rider affects the horse in a half halt to ask him to come into collection or do a downward transition, the horse instantly takes himself out of self-carriage. The weak links in the horse’s bridge of muscle show up, immediately causing the bridge to break. The horse’s hind legs may stop as he shortens and lifts his neck while he drops his withers and back. He may stop stepping through the poll by either collapsing at the poll and bringing his chin toward his chest, shortening the neck and coming “behind the bit’, or he may block and become rigid in the poll as he droops his back and braces against his rider’s hands.


In either case, the rider needs to start over by paying attention to whichever are the weak links in his connection, strengthening them, and then persisting in training the horse to half halts and downward transitions again. Successful half halts and downward transitions are the rider’s opportunity to close up the horse’s frame and improve his balance and collection. Sequentially, here’s what happens in the downward transition or half halt:

· The driving aids of your seat and leg send power through the horse’s topline to meet the hand.

· In response to the impulsion, your hand qualifies the energy with a waiting outside rein that says, ”Don’t go forward faster,” and then the hind legs take a millimeter more of a step than the front, which makes a rounder, more closed-up frame.

· In the moment of increased engagement you start to feel the horse’s thoracic lift. He lifts up underneath your hands and seat, becoming rounder in the base of the neck. Olympian Robert Dover says that the feeling reminds him of blowing up a balloon in front of you. At this point, the rider’s half halts tell his horse whether he wants more engagement within a gait or a transition to a different gait – upward or downward.

· Finally you soften your aids to allow the horse to feel a reward for his correct response and to enjoy his expressive body. He goes forward in a shorter, rounder, more pumped up and more elastic shape.


When the Bridge is Missing

If the horse’s back is tight and dropped instead of swinging and lifted, the bridge is missing. The horse and rider are dealing with two parts, the forehand and the hindquarters, each working separately. Not only is the feeling in the rider’s seat inelastic, but it also feels as if the energy of the horse’s hindquarters has great difficulty reaching the hand. It feels as if the hand brake is on, generating heat and friction, so in order for the rider to get the energy to reach his hand, he needs to d more driving and emotional cheerleading. There’s a mechanical reason why the energy can’t reach the front: Since the horse’s back is down, the rider is sitting in a kind of a hammock, and the energy created by the horse’s hind legs in blocked. The horse’s shocks are bottomed out, and he has no ability to absorb motion because he isn’t suspended by his upper back and abdominal muscles.

When the rider is able to encourage his horse to come into a position of thoracic lift, he can show more elasticity and “boing” within his movement. As a result, the horse will tend to stay sounder and be much more expressive, and his rider will have a more comfortable ride.

When you examine a fully developed dressage horse at rest whose topline bridge musculature is missing, you have to question how the horse has been ridden or question his conformation. You must be suspicious that correct use of the back might be difficult for him for one reason or another. There are many possibilities. The rider might drive the back down with his seat or his training techniques may not involve complete use of the back. The horse’s conformation may make it difficult for him to use his back or perhaps the horse doesn’t have the capacity to carry himself correctly because he’s been doing difficult work before his is developmentally ready for it. However, when the rider creates this bridge structure, his horse’s back develops with upper muscles that are round and lower muscles that are lifted and soft.


The Height of the Neck

It is often through lowering the horse’s neck during the work that the band of topline muscle is developed. To determine the ideal height of the neck, there are many pieces of the puzzle that come into play: the horse’s age, his stage of training, his conformation, the existing musculature and strength, his temperament and his current emotional state. These variables all play a role in determining the ideal height and position of the neck that will facilitate the bridge. For a horse whose conformation or previous incorrect training has created difficulty with the upper neck muscles, the lower you place the neck, the more ability you have to cause the bulge of muscle to reach the shoulder. I suggest teat the rider visually monitor aspects of the horse’s bridge. Look down at the width of the topline muscle in front of the withers and use it as a concrete visual cue. The base of the neck should look very inflated, round and wide from the poll to the base of the neck, but you shouldn’t feel you are compromising other qualities of the bridge. When you lower the horse’ neck until the base of the neck is wide, does it look and fell like he is “stepping through the poll” into receiving hands? Has he kept that element of reach as if he were looking in the bucket?

Truth Tests

When you place your horse’s neck low, here are some tests to give yourself to be sure that your training is correctly building a bridge.

You should easily be able to take your horse’s neck up and make his poll the highest point. That doesn’t mean you won’t fell an erosion of your horse’s ability to maintain the bridge. If your horse isn’t quite ready to carry himself in that position, he may have a hard time maintaining the bridge. But you should be able to do it with him still connected to the bit, reaching and looking in the bucket. If you can’t do that without major losses of rhythm, suppleness or contact, then you need to confirm that you r horse is stepping with an engaged hind leg through the poll and to the hand correctly.

If you’re placing the neck low and the poll becomes lower than other parts of the neck, check to be sure you feel your horse is still looking in the bucket. There should be a universal curve from poll to shoulder – not a sharper curve near the poll that makes you feel he is disappearing behind the vertical in front of you. If you were to raise his neck up with the same curvature, your horse should be in front of the vertical and the poll should be the highest point.

When you give the inside rein for a few strides, the inside bend and the connection to the outside rein should stray the same. When you give both reins, the horse should stretch forward and down, maintaining the same balance. He should not fall on the forehand, rush, slow down, or hollow.

When the bridge is strong and flexible, you’ll find that your horse may or may not be on or in front of the vertical, and the poll may or may not be the highest point. Now we’re going to a dangerous place because when we talk about the height of the neck and the position of the poll, things get touchy and controversial. That’s because some people make the neck low without preserving the other aspects of the bridge. You can give your self these tests that will ensure you stay on track. (see previous box “Truth Tests”)

As you ride, keep the following ideas in the back of your mind:

Conformation:

If your horse is conformationally low in the back or if his neck comes out of the shoulder too low, you may need to position his neck unusually low in order to keep his back up and develop a strong bridge. Likewise, poor conformation between the neck and the poll, such as a thick throatlatch, can complicate the training since the horse will have a hard time looking in the bucket; unless he can work with a lower neck.

Some breeds, such as Andalusians, have an easier time maintaining the bridge because their backs are short and well muscled from the beginning, and the neck placement is already high. Despite the neck being high, you can still see a real bridge of musculature through the base of the neck. Whereas building the bridge of these horse may be easy, they may have other problems, such as flexibility and elasticity issues.

Very well conformed and healthy hind legs can help you live with other conformation problems such as a difficult neck or back. Some horses may be put together totally wrong, but may perform beautifully because they are well trained to the forward-driving and half-halt aid, and because they have ‘heart’ – two very important pieces of the puzzle! Riders need to have patience in doing their homework to create the bridge musculature in the horse with conformational difficulties. The strong back isn’t going to develop as soon in his life as it will for some others, and it isn’t going to be as easy to maintain, but he may have other attributes that make him wonderful.

Age:

For the first one and a half or two developmental years of being ridden, the horse’s ability to carry a rider with an elastic, lifted back may be shaky. Three and four year old auction or sale horses or often presented with high backs by riders who are sitting firmly down on their back. There are some youngsters who have extremely strong back muscles and a neck that comes out naturally high with a full base of musculature. Although they may have other weaknesses in their repertoire, they can sometimes be ridden quite high without sacrificing the solid bridge of muscle, but many other 3-and 4-year olds need to have more education and tie. They don’t have the gymnasticizing and strength to carry themselves with a high neck for long. I feel the same way about the current demands of the FEI 5-year old test. Some individuals may not be able to carry themselves throughout the require movements of the test in an appropriate frame.

The rider who has experience feeling throughness in the horse’s back is always on the lookout for when the bridge structure is there and when its not – especially when the rider ‘ups the ante’. When the rider wants a little more engagement or asks for lateral work, he may find that his horse can’t carry a bridge through the complication that was added. At this point, I use a downward transition or half halt as a tool to engage my horse and pop his topline back up. Then I can continue with the more challenging work in a better balance with more self-carriage, and therefore with a longer neck.

Imagine you are starting to do a shoulder-fore. With the help of some transitions and half halt, you successfully superimpose the feeling of a bridge. However when you add a bit more angle and bend to make a shoulder–in, you feel, all of a sudden, that the horse shortens, the trot becomes less swinging and the connection becomes less alive because the horse hasn’t been able to maintain the bridge with the increased engagement and angle. As a rider you need to listen and recognize the particularly challenges you gave your horse that were unsuccessful and find a way to help him maintain the bridge under the demanding situation. As a trainer, you are offering him challenging little tests. Recognize the point where the bottom will fall out and either don’t go to that point or find aids that will help the shores success through it. The bottom line is that the rider must only work within the range that is his able to maintain the bridge.

Temperament and current emotional state:

On a daily basis at home, you may feel your horse always has a solid bridge underneath you, and you can ride him with a relatively high neck and have a good feeling in your seat and hand. Then you experience the common disappointment of taking him to a horse show where he is stressed. Since he is tense, he becomes tight and inelastic in his back. Suddenly you have a harder time creating a bridge. The place where you thought you could go with safe results is now rectified. I f you’re a smart rider, rather than forcing the situation, and getting into connection and throughness problems, you will ride the neck slightly lower until you fell things are better. That may take a year or 10 minutes.

You have all of these variables when riding your horse: how warmed up your horse is, how much the engine is running, how he’s built, how much training he has, how much muscling he has, how soon he will make peace with his new environment and so on. The variables will always be present, but constant attention to the details of building the bridge will reap extraordinary rewards for both you and your horse.

Sabine
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:51 AM
Karoline- how can you post these DT articles? where do you get them from? and is this ok to do?? I know this one by heart LOL!

Karoline
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:59 AM
I spend quite a bit of time reading bad articles and sifting through useless links. If you notice, I always include the original link. I figure, and perhaps I am wrong that if I give a link to information that is accessible for free to anyone who clicks, its ok to cut and paste.

newrider
Jun. 9, 2006, 02:41 AM
I am also interested in the answer to the question posed by Akrogirl: "I am well aware of the Anky controversy, but could someone enlighten me as to which top FEI riders do NOT use RK?" Could someone please list some of the riders who avoid RK?

Noir
Jun. 9, 2006, 06:11 AM
The hindquarters/croup work as a lever and the neck in front also works as a lever. This theory, which comes from him and a group of veterinary professors at the time seems all but forgotten now, except by some German vets like Heuschmann and others. I advice y'all to read up on it.

Bürger describes the Trapezius as a not so strong polster muscle that of course has it's use, but only to the extent of its strength. The Complexius is interwoven with fibre in 5-6 section and thus 5-6 times stronger than it looks. When it fills out, and when the Serratus fills out, the dip in front of the withers will be gone because the spine of the neck will be lifted higher inside the horse's body and the horse has developed those muscles deep inside the body. That is what fills out the dip, and it works because the horse has no Clavicle. Not a relatively thin muscle that moves the Scapula back and forth.

The modern idea of the ring of muscles is interesting and useful, but it must be scrutinized closely and not just taken as fact. It does have some errors of logic in it, which is clearly describe (although not recognized as errors as such) in Massage and Physiotherapy for the Horse by Denoix.

Theresa

sm
Jun. 9, 2006, 06:11 AM
newrider and Akrogirl: According to the FEI definition, RK is anything at all behind the vertical. From a tiny fraction of an inch to the OP photos which show severe RK.

So the question you ask is a tough one. If you ask how many top riders train to the OP photos, I don't know. Warm-up and training in europe is done behind closed doors for the most part.

Ghazzu
Jun. 9, 2006, 09:10 AM
The hindquarters/croup work as a lever and the neck in front also works as a lever. This theory, which comes from him and a group of veterinary professors at the time seems all but forgotten now, except by some German vets like Heuschmann and others. I advice y'all to read up on it.

Bürger describes the Trapezius as a not so strong polster muscle that of course has it's use, but only to the extent of its strength. The Complexius is interwoven with fibre in 5-6 section and thus 5-6 times stronger than it looks. When it fills out, and when the Serratus fills out, the dip in front of the withers will be gone because the spine of the neck will be lifted higher inside the horse's body and the horse has developed those muscles deep inside the body. That is what fills out the dip, and it works because the horse has no Clavicle. Not a relatively thin muscle that moves the Scapula back and forth.

The modern idea of the ring of muscles is interesting and useful, but it must be scrutinized closely and not just taken as fact. It does have some errors of logic in it, which is clearly describe (although not recognized as errors as such) in Massage and Physiotherapy for the Horse by Denoix.

Theresa

Thank you!
I can certainly see the logic in this.
The idea that the trapezius was responsible for developing the neck wasn't making a lot of sense to me.

JSwan
Jun. 9, 2006, 09:45 AM
newrider and Akrogirl: According to the FEI definition, RK is anything at all behind the vertical. From a tiny fraction of an inch to the OP photos which show severe RK.

So the question you ask is a tough one. If you ask how many top riders train to the OP photos, I don't know. Warm-up and training in europe is done behind closed doors for the most part.

I think the FEI is trying to figure all this out since questions have been raised- hopefully all will turn out as it should.

Interesting discussion on the anatomy....

sabryant
Jun. 9, 2006, 12:54 PM
Thanks Sabine for your great posts!
Thanks Karoline for the Sue Blinks post...it was great! Rock my soul in the heart of dressage!

So now, if I'm understanding the above posts, it may not be the traps that make the wither fill in, it maybe some other muscles...it seems that it is not clear even from a very good vet's (Ghazzu's) point of view. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that these muscles do need to be developed and stablized/fixed in order to connect a horse hind to front. For me when these muscles (whatever they are called and it is, probably, all of them together,) are developed to the proper strength, a good case can be made for the use of deep, RK, BTV or whatever else it is called.

Ghazzu
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:01 PM
...it seems that it is not clear even from a very good vet's (Ghazzu's) point of view. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that these muscles do need to be developed and stablized/fixed in order to connect a horse hind to front. For me when these muscles (whatever they are called and it is, probably, all of them together,) are developed to the proper strength, a good case can be made for the use of deep, RK, BTV or whatever else it is called.

I expect that it is the deeper muscles of the cervical region that are responsible for the increased mass--the trapezius overlies them, so if they were built up, it would push the traps outward.
I was getting confused because at some point in the previous discussion, it was sounding like it was the muscle of the withers area was being targeted as that which needed to be built up, and not the muscles which actually support the cervical vertebrae, and that didn't make any sense.
(In fact, the reference on Nancy Nicholson's page maybe supposed to be to the serratus, now that I think of it).

sabryant
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:04 PM
Claire

I love that little horse too. I was at Saratoga at the finish line, one of the last times he raced, Chris McCarron threw his bat across the race track and I caught it. It was a thrill to watch that little horse with a great big HEART! Man alive, that ought to date me and give away my age! However, I've found this new supplement that makes me feel like a spring chicken! It's call HyCel. Anybody ever heard of it? It is awesome and my hips/knees/ankles feel like new again!

fiona
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:38 PM
Akrogirl: "I am well aware of the Anky controversy, but could someone enlighten me as to which top FEI riders do NOT use RK?" Could someone please list some of the riders who avoid RK?

Ulla Salzgeber.
You don't see her doing it and you get a serious talking to if you happen to think you are stretching your horse and you have the nose back or the neck too short!

Hubertus Schmidt wrote in the australian HorseMagazine pretty strongly against it.



Warm-up and training in europe is done behind closed doors for the most part.
Pretty much every competition the warm up is open, including all the internationals. If it's closed it's usually due to location and the complicating factor of FEI stabling regulations.
Most european trainers have a constant stream of clients coming for lessons and sales horses - there are no secrets! Way back when Klimke had so many visitors to the stables he made a regular open day so people were welcome and he'd make time to answer their questions. Many stables continue this idea but they can't cope with a constant stream of visitors, we have European Health and Safety regulations!

ideayoda
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:42 PM
FEI warmups are usually closed, completely. Aachen was, LV definately was. Pity, thats where the really good riding was usually done, and the arena was the more conservative part. The warmup day was definately deeper by all riders but one.

fiona
Jun. 9, 2006, 01:54 PM
Amsterdam WC was open, i wasn't in aachen this year. I haven't been to FEI competitions in the USA maybe it's different there.

Horsedances
Jun. 9, 2006, 02:07 PM
FEI warmups are usually closed, completely. Aachen was, LV definately was. Pity, thats where the really good riding was usually done, and the arena was the more conservative part. The warmup day was definately deeper by all riders but one.

B*llshit..............................

90% of the warmup arenas at FEI-competitions are open for the public, only when safety reasons or the fire-department demands this...... they are closed.

ideayoda
Jun. 9, 2006, 02:23 PM
So Aachen and LV were closed (after Uphoff/Remmie and lately) because of fire department reasons? Different kind of fire department perhaps?

fiona
Jun. 9, 2006, 02:29 PM
Nope, i've been to aachen lately and the warm up was open it was this year i didn't go. I've hundreds of photos, also from Verden, the Europeans etc
all open all wellcome.

Horsedances
Jun. 9, 2006, 03:53 PM
So Aachen and LV were closed (after Uphoff/Remmie and lately) because of fire department reasons? Different kind of fire department perhaps?

Amsterdam, Den Bosch, Maastricht, Mechelen, Ensbeke, Dortmund, Paris, Geesteren, Aachen etc........all open warm-up arena's, but probably you know better, like you always do.:no: :no: :no: :no: :no:

mbm
Jun. 9, 2006, 06:16 PM
i have two questions:

1) where did the FEI say that any - even an eenie beenie tiny bit of BTV is rollkur?

2) where, in all this great stuff being posted, does it say that riding the horse BTV and deep/rollkur (especially as relates to youngsters) is good for the muscle development?

I took away a completely differenet impression (altho i havent read all the supplied info (thanks karoline!!) . i got that you either a) let the horse be more up or you can lower the neck a bit to help strengthen the back.... but nowhere does it say bring the nose in....

did i miss something??

sm
Jun. 10, 2006, 11:43 AM
mbm, I can respond to the first question:

From page 14 of the FEI report http://rhonealpes.dressage.free.fr/INFOS/FEIrollkur.pdf:
"Definition : Rollkur has been defined as a training method involving forced flexion of the poll and neck with the horse’s head pulled behind the vertical. "

mbm
Jun. 10, 2006, 11:47 AM
mbm, I can respond to the first question:

From page 14 of the FEI report http://rhonealpes.dressage.free.fr/INFOS/FEIrollkur.pdf:
"Definition : Rollkur has been defined as a training method involving forced flexion of the poll and neck with the horse’s head pulled behind the vertical. "


thanks.... i guess i dont read that as meaning *any* flexion behind the verticle = rollkur, but that rollkur is a method that invloves forced flexion etc.

otherwise eaach time a horse went btv it would be rollkur.... and i DONT think that is what the FEI meant.

edited to add that i am not a proponant of riding btv, but i dont think that slightly btv equals the extreme that is rollkur. and i think that promoting that definition is one way for the pro side to water down the word so that folks dont get so upset. so eventually we will be calling any bit of btv rollkur and the power of the word will have gone.

sm
Jun. 10, 2006, 02:23 PM
mbm, my thoughts exactly.

In the beginning I thought the term straightjacket was too inflammatory, but it does describe the severe rollkur and separates it from the FEIs anything BTV.

The reason BTV was in the past considered a fault to the judges because it was considered a form of resistance or evasion, just like a buck or an angry tail movement. As well as BTV is not correct classical riding, which I do acknowledge but separate it from the judge's consideration that BTV is the horse expressing resistance to bit (therefore the rider). The proof of harmony is no resistance. Which goes back to Blakenhol's statement that Severe RK changes the dialogue to a monologue, with Severe RK harmony is no longer tested.

HorsesRMe
Jun. 10, 2006, 02:48 PM
J Swan, I couldn't agree more, when I was a kid my mom could make her horse do the whole lippizaner show routiney thingy, and all she would do was use a regular english bit, and nothing but. If my horse is being hurt when I ride, I get off and change what ever hurts them. My horses LOVE to be riden, and if they don't want to go riding one day, well than, I consider it like a kid haveing a bad day at school. So I let them go back to their stall give 'em a couple carrots, tells them that their still a good horsey, and go ride a different one.
It's my opinion that if your not doing something your horse enjoys, then they won't put up with it for very long. You don't like what I have to say,. well, like J swan said, Thats your own problem.

professor
Jun. 10, 2006, 07:59 PM
Pictures of the warmup arena at this weekends dressage competition :

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/4817/outdoor8jjuni20064ef.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/8395/outdoor28juni20068gu.jpg

DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME

JSwan
Jun. 10, 2006, 08:15 PM
We need a vomit icon

trailblazzer
Jun. 10, 2006, 08:33 PM
The pictures must be doctored... :rolleyes:

bjrudq
Jun. 10, 2006, 11:06 PM
just moments in time. why not show the good moments?

trailblazzer
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:55 AM
just moments in time. why not show the good moments?
What good moments? :lol:

sm
Jun. 11, 2006, 12:17 PM
"just moments in time. why not show the good moments?"

What if they were the "good" moments? Can you imagine what goes on at home? BTW, I wish I had this source, but a study was done on stress and international dressage horses and they are least stressed while doing a test. They know they are safe in front of a judge because no stopping for corrrections and interrupting the test.

DocHF
Jun. 11, 2006, 04:20 PM
Will someone please stop my horse from sneeking onto this forum at night and reading this thread? He decided to do rollkur/piaffe all the way home on a trail ride today, even on a completely loose rein. So I guess it wasn't rollkur-since it wasn't forced. He kept a very elastic contact but wouldn't stretch or lengthen his pace. It wasn't hard to sit- like being on top of the big exercise ball, but I was afraid one of you might see me and think I taught him!

bigdreamer
Jun. 11, 2006, 10:54 PM
i was wondering, as well- can someone please show me a picture of a horse benifiting from rk? a nice relaxed horse whose hocks aren't trailing, etc?

i asked this 3 other times on another thread and no one would respond.

Sabine
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:20 PM
BigDreamer- if you have read some of the thousands of RK thread posts- you would find that there is noone in this country admitting to RK and riding it openly for the press to take note.
There is also noone who will openly teach, confess, promote or advertise RK. I have photos of trainers I have ridden with in Europe- that are very deep or RK- but I can not post these, as they are involving other people that I don't want to compromise.

The few folks that speak out favorably for a deep/rk/varying of neck positions type training regimen- are those that have seen a lot more work like this in Europe or have been trained by someone in Europe or are travelling there regularly, find some sense of knowledge on how to use this method and apply it. It is not Anky's RK- but a variety of deviations of the topic- involving more or less or no gadgets- but follows the thinking of elongating the topline while activating the rear- all stuff that has been posted here by folks much more educated than myself and in much more eloquent ways.

I will not go back to that battle. The interesting observation that I am making as I am reading these endless threads- is sadly that there is virtually very little improvement of reflected knowledge within the posting crowd, but rather a reurgitating of the same dead questions...and therefore a total standstill of what a productive discussion should really produce.

So in other words- sadly a waste of time.

mbm
Jun. 11, 2006, 11:38 PM
Sabine - i must dissagree with you.... i have seen many people riding rollkur here in the US. most of these people are just local folks that are copying what they see (so they must be seeing it somewhere) .... and it is clearly rk since it is much lateral flexion nose to boot and also extreme deep with nose to chest.

so, yes, there are people doing it here in the states.

sabryant
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:19 AM
If he/she is the photographer, he/she is awful at it. He/she keeps cutting off the riders head....tee hee! This isn't about THE LEGEND OF SLEEPY HOLLOW, though I wish she'd had a pumpkin pie to throw at your lens/face! It's equivalent to the Enquirer and the mind-set of the paparazzi. If your going to take them, have the guts to put the whole picture out there...then we'll see how brave you are!!!

mbm
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:09 AM
we all know that rk isnt done for a "moment in time" - and if you still believe that then there isnt much to say....

also, i believe it is the correct thing to do to not show the rider.... otherwise who knows who would be calling up COTH and demanding retraction.

plus, if the rider was shown you wolves would be howling about that.

to Professor: thanks for posting the pix.

Sabine
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:32 AM
Sabine - i must dissagree with you.... i have seen many people riding rollkur here in the US. most of these people are just local folks that are copying what they see (so they must be seeing it somewhere) .... and it is clearly rk since it is much lateral flexion nose to boot and also extreme deep with nose to chest.

so, yes, there are people doing it here in the states.


Well if you have seen it and you are wondering about it- why don't you ask those folks....I am just really tired of people asking about RK and not listening to well written, well informed responses... it's like talking to a wall- not worth my time for sure.
On another note- the extreme lateral flexions are something I am highly unsure about- I know that the extreme RK camp does that- but this is not part of my plan or understanding when I ride deep and vary the frame... also always adjusting to the type and need of the specific horse....

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:55 AM
i was wondering, as well- can someone please show me a picture of a horse benifiting from rk? a nice relaxed horse whose hocks aren't trailing, etc?

i asked this 3 other times on another thread and no one would respond.

I too have asked repeatedly for photos of Rollkur that don't have anxious, tense, hock trailing, tail swishing horses in them.

Go ahead and blank out the riders faces - I don't care. But I'm still waiting for a relaxed confident settled horse whose rider is using Rollkur.

And sabine - the rider can be European, American, or from Pluto. I don't care. I want to see a relaxed, confident settled, correctly moving horse whose rider is using Rollkur. I'm very sorry you are tired of responding - but I have not asked any questions and did not seek your "expertise". I do not accept the premise that Rollkur is an acceptable method of training the horse - particularly the extremes that have been popularized by the Anky/Sjef folks and whose justification is that they win. Period.

sabryant
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:12 PM
Jswan Why not PM the "Goody" professor to put all of his/her photos up as iancleese suggested?

fiona
Jun. 12, 2006, 12:49 PM
http://www.arnd.nl/
database search anky training. Draw your own conclusions but i see some very different "moments in time" than on the websites that are usually sited here.

HXF
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:05 PM
Thank you Fiona, gorgeous pics:)

sm
Jun. 12, 2006, 01:40 PM
I have a hard time finding any BTV at all, can someone reference Anky's BTV shots by Image Number? I found lots of Anky shots in general, but the only one I found that can be considered BTV at all:

040728623 = unhappy resistance (tail) and it is mildly BTV, not "straightjacket"

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 02:22 PM
Nice site - still not seeing any Rollkur shots.

Moll
Jun. 12, 2006, 02:45 PM
I have a hard time finding any BTV at all, can someone reference Anky's BTV shots by Image Number? I found lots of Anky shots in general, but the only one I found that can be considered BTV at all:

040728623 = unhappy resistance (tail) and it is mildly BTV, not "straightjacket"


I'll check if these link:

http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12979012&-find=
http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12940046&-find=
http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12963987&-find=
http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12964001&-find=
http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12906891&-find=
http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12933902&-find=
http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12933904&-find=
http://abf.xs4all.nl/archief_abf/FMPro?-db=archieab.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail%5fen.htm&-lay=zoekpagina&-sortfield=dianummer%5f4%5fcijfers&-sortorder=descend&Internet%20Ja%5fNee=Ja&-op=cn&Meerdere%20personen=Anky&-op=eq&Archiefkenmerk%3a%3aVertaling%20engels=Dressage&-op=eq&Bijzonderheid%3a%3aVertaling%20Engels=Training&-max=200&-recid=12964144&-find=

fiona
Jun. 12, 2006, 03:02 PM
still not seeing any Rollkur shots.
0408 16529, 16471,13383,13382,28627,28623,20111,20110,20098 etc etc

You wanted to see pictures of horses worked in the rollkur system looking like they are being worked happy, relaxed, supple, under, without the rider using force. That's one photographer approx 200 pictures of one rider training, they go back 12 years, a variety of horses.

still not seeing any Rollkur shots?
No S**T Sherlock!

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 03:07 PM
Actually - I still disagree. None of those pictures show the horse moving freely - it is "held" in position by the rider using the rider's strength and position to enforce it. They are not the extremes in some of the photos posted - but it is still there.

fiona
Jun. 12, 2006, 03:37 PM
try 13373, 20111, 20110, 201108

An average height GP fit warmblood weighs 5/600 kilos Anky's tiny so i'd guess she's no more than 50 kilos soaking wet. What strength? Where in those pictures do you see force?
Yes she uses her postition but that's what we call riding!


They are not the extremes in some of the photos posted

We agree on that, the photos frequently posted are extreme, it is not hard to find some that show a very different picture. Rather depends on what is in the heart of the photographer and poster imho

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 03:49 PM
Rather depends on what is in the heart of the photographer and poster imho

Or more accurately - luck and timing - and whether it's a photo shoot with results suitable for framing or joe average with a digital camera capturing a more accurate - but less posed - moment.

Different things, surely.

And you don't need to be a linebacker to force the horse - all it takes is that curb. Pull on that hard enough - and the biggest horse will fall all over itself getting away from the pain.

ideayoda
Jun. 12, 2006, 04:22 PM
Read the work of Gerd H. The torque on the atlas/axis meeting point (about 1/4" in size) has a factor of something like 100x. Thus 20 lbs = a ton of weight on a small area. Repeat that and the movement of the hand (backward) with a lever action of the curb and its easy to do. Do it quickly enough, repeatedly enough, and sustain it for an hour/two/three and the horse 'learns his place'.

However, how many people have held the reins and closed their eyes and felt the action of the ring finger vs even the hand vs moving the hand backward???? There is rarely a need for more than the first to mobilize the jaw. IF the jaw is instead strapped shut, and the level employeed, what is the point? To yield the 3rd vertebrae? WHY? This is incorrrect. Flexion should be at the atlas, not the third/fourth vertebrae. It goes against every traditional principle AND betrays balance and purity of gaits.

OakesBrae
Jun. 12, 2006, 04:29 PM
This video made me cry and feel sick to my stomach. :no: I forced myself to keep watching it for signs that maybe I was overreacting. Nope.

How can anyone say this is okay? How can anyone watch that video and say that those horses are not uncomfortable???

I understand that there are moments when horses get btv - it happens - sometimes they toss their heads, sometimes they just aren't going forward enough and some horses had been trained that way and are very difficult to get going in front of the vertical.

But I never want to see what I just saw again.

Sannois
Jun. 12, 2006, 06:09 PM
try 13373, 20111, 20110, 201108

An average height GP fit warmblood weighs 5/600 kilos Anky's tiny so i'd guess she's no more than 50 kilos soaking wet. What strength? Where in those pictures do you see force?
Yes she uses her postition but that's what we call riding!



We agree on that, the photos frequently posted are extreme, it is not hard to find some that show a very different picture. Rather depends on what is in the heart of the photographer and poster imho
Look at her arms in some of those pics, how about the one on the black where she is out of the saddle bracing against him.. And he is curled up with his tongue out.. Please any of those pics look like a soft supple pleasant ride to you?? You see what you want! :no:

Ghazzu
Jun. 12, 2006, 06:23 PM
try 13373, 20111, 20110, 201108

An average height GP fit warmblood weighs 5/600 kilos Anky's tiny so i'd guess she's no more than 50 kilos soaking wet. What strength? Where in those pictures do you see force?
Yes she uses her postition but that's what we call riding!



We agree on that, the photos frequently posted are extreme, it is not hard to find some that show a very different picture. Rather depends on what is in the heart of the photographer and poster imho

Archimedes might have something to say about how a small person can force a large animal.
It has to do with something called a lever.

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 06:51 PM
Give it up - y'all. Anky poops golden butterflies and the laws of physics to not apply to anyone using Rollkur. Rollkur fixes everything from the dip in front of the withers to EPSM. Like the horses forced to endure this method - we must realize that resistance is futile......

professor
Jun. 12, 2006, 07:30 PM
I have posted these pix to show you that in Europe the topriders using LDR don't hide behind closed doors.

Beside that:D

Anti RK-people should be very happy that these riders give them an excuse for the fact that they will never reach above traininglevel.

lukas1987
Jun. 12, 2006, 07:52 PM
Professor: :winkgrin:

JSwan
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:03 PM
Anti RK-people should be very happy that these riders give them an excuse for the fact that they will never reach above traininglevel.

Hmmm - I can think of several reasons why I do not approve of Rollkur - but jealousy would not be one of them. I think I last heard the catty remark of "you're just jealous" in the 2nd grade. I'd expect better of an individual with the moniker "Professor".

sabryant
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:08 PM
Jswan,


you still don't get it! Once the dip in the wither is fixed, the laws of physics change it's place within the balance of the horse because the head and neck are, now, taken out of the equation and can be placed anywhere it needs to be placed for suppling the poll and the jaw. Some people's eye for dressage is much like van Gogh's ear for music.

Ghazzu
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:16 PM
\
Anti RK-people should be very happy that these riders give them an excuse for the fact that they will never reach above traininglevel.

Bah. I won a first level test once or twice:D.

Ghazzu
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:17 PM
Jswan,


Some people's eye for dressage is much like van Gogh's ear for music.

I thought van Gogh cut his ear off...

mbm
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:22 PM
Once the dip in the wither is fixed, the laws of physics change because the head and neck are, then, taken out of the equation.

can you please tell me how the laws of physics change??? how can you take the head and nek out of the equation??? the horse uses them to balance with .....

Appassionato
Jun. 12, 2006, 09:29 PM
Jswan,


you still don't get it! Once the dip in the wither is fixed, the laws of physics change because the head and neck are, then, taken out of the equation and can be placed anywhere it needs to be placed for suppling the poll and the jaw. Some people's eye for dressage is much like van Gogh's ear for music.

Vincent van Gogh? The painter? :confused:

What laws of physics changed? How? The horse softly on the bit verses rollkur?

OakesBrae
Jun. 12, 2006, 10:07 PM
laws of physics change

I'm not sure I even know what to say to this.

I've gotten dips in front of withers to be filled in WITHOUT EVER riding my horse behind the vertical. It can be done. It takes more work and a lot of riding on a light rein (not loose, but light) from behind and then harnessing the energy with *subtle* half halts, not the yanking and cranking that you see in the video.

Sorry that you have to subscribe to see the whole thing. I did, and it made me even sicker. Let me yank on your mouth with a curb bit and tell me how much you enjoy staring at your feet as I spur you to move forward though you can't see or breathe. Sounds fun, eh?

sabryant
Jun. 12, 2006, 10:42 PM
I'm not sure I even know what to say to this.

I've gotten dips in front of withers to be filled in WITHOUT EVER riding my horse behind the vertical. It can be done. It takes more work and a lot of riding on a light rein (not loose, but light) from behind and then harnessing the energy with *subtle* half halts, not the yanking and cranking that you see in the video.

Sorry that you have to subscribe to see the whole thing. I did, and it made me even sicker. Let me yank on your mouth with a curb bit and tell me how much you enjoy staring at your feet as I spur you to move forward though you can't see or breathe. Sounds fun, eh?


Sorry, I changed my post above...I'm so glad to know there is a classical rider that knows how to fill in the dip in front of the wither. I've yet to meet one...Congrratulations...I know it can be done your way, but I like mine better.

OakesBrae
Jun. 12, 2006, 10:59 PM
sabryant I wasn't trying to be snarky - I really just wasn't getting what you were saying here.

I'm sorry to hear that you hadn't ever met a classical rider who was able to do that - I'm a little puzzled at that statement, but okay. From your posts however, I wasn't clear that you were riding "rollkur" but rather that you were riding f/d/o...which is entirely different.

Would you like me to describe my technique to you? Maybe we can determine what the differences are.

lstevenson
Jun. 12, 2006, 11:18 PM
I'm so glad to know there is a classical rider that knows how to fill in the dip in front of the wither. I've yet to meet one.


Huh? Really?:confused:

mzpeepers
Jun. 13, 2006, 12:09 AM
not according to the expert mistresses. According to mbm deep, low and btv are a heresy punishable by death with burning at the stake preferable.

Huh??? Where did you get that? Are you reading the same posts I'm reading?

Sabine
Jun. 13, 2006, 12:09 AM
whatever greenie you are Iancleese- you are sure hot on the topic...:LOL!
Just watch that you don't get squashed between the Puritans and the Knowitalls....! there have been several victims before you- including myself...:)

mbm
Jun. 13, 2006, 12:54 AM
Jswan,


you still don't get it! Once the dip in the wither is fixed, the laws of physics change it's place within the balance of the horse because the head and neck are, now, taken out of the equation and can be placed anywhere it needs to be placed for suppling the poll and the jaw. Some people's eye for dressage is much like van Gogh's ear for music.

so *where* do the laws of physics go? how do you think the laws are changed?

please describe to me exactly what law allows for the horses balancing rod (the neeck) and its head, in combination (weighing quite a bit) to be taken *out* of the equation? there is no way that that can happen.

i dont even think that the big time RK users would claim such a thing.

perhaps you mis wrote?

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 12:54 AM
Hypothetically, what if the exact same resistances were photographed in traditionally trained horses, where the ONLY difference was that the nose was ifv not btv????? Would the anti rk brigade still be as vehemently opposed to those pics. I can guarantee you that if you go to a competitive barn, training horses up to GP in the more classical or traditional manner, that you would see these same resistances.

If you were to see endless photos of this would you also condemn classical dressage training techniques??????

If not you are a hypocrite.

If you do then you would not have a leg to stand on criticising the resistances as solely the result of rollkur.

mbm
Jun. 13, 2006, 01:06 AM
not according to the expert mistresses. According to mbm deep, low and btv are a heresy punishable by death with burning at the stake preferable.



clearly you have not ever really read any of my posts on teh subject :rolleyes:

mbm
Jun. 13, 2006, 01:21 AM
nero, in general, i think that resistances are due to lack of riding/training ability, or the horse not being ready for what it is being asked for. i dont think, in general, that horse are resistant just to be so.

so, if for instance there was a horse that was ridden RK and one not, but both were being ridden by the same rider i would bet that both would show similar resistances.

and, fwiw, in my pursuing on this subject, i haven't taken away that people are opposed to RK because of resistances - but more because of what it doesnt produce, and for the extremeness of the method *and* that it is being held up as the pinnicle of dressage.

edited to add (again ): iancleese, yep, thats me. i cant stand how a horse feels when they are consistantly btv - and with sophie it was worse becuase she was sucked back to boot. luckily after doing a lot of reading and asking questions and hard work we got thru that and she is now consistantly on the bit and seeking contact. I have found a super trainer and so thngs are really coming along. we just started counter canter this week :) feel free to check out the latest vid that is posted on my web site.

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 01:38 AM
in general, i think that resistances are due to lack of riding/training ability, or the horse not being ready for what it is being asked for. i dont think, in general, that horse are resistant just to be so.




sorry for being crass, but b&^%$@!#. I challenge anyone to get on a willful, talented seven year old warmblood stallion that is being asked to perform international quality movements full of expression and submission that has not been asked 'firmly', at some point, to do this - you'd be coming off second best that's for sure. The lovely, airy fairy world of gentle, sweet riding exists only in the minds of the idealistic and the backyard horse 'lover'. To get a world class athlete to perform at international level there is going to be some training under duress at some point - that's the reality. I do not condone cruelty at all, but I am realistic, knowing that to get results sometimes these strong beasts have to be convinced they want to piaffe, collect, go forward etc.

If you think Anky has a lack of ability or talent and therefore resorts to rollkur I feel sorry for you, and you've obviously never seen her ride!

mbm
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:06 AM
Nero, i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say. at least the response above would imply that.

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:15 AM
Nero, i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say. at least the response above would imply that. No, not really, if you believe that you can ask a horse to do something that they'd rather not do, like piaffe, collect, give maximum impulsion, work over the back, etc and not encounter a 'no' from them from time to time I think you are being unrealistic, or at the very least not asking enough.

mbm
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:19 AM
No, not really, if you believe that you can ask a horse to do something that they'd rather not do, like piaffe, collect, give maximum impulsion, work over the back, etc and not encounter a 'no' from them from time to time I think you are being unrealistic, or at the very least not asking enough.

i understand that horse will become resistant. however, if they chronically are it is lack of training/riding ability.

the point i was trying to make is that i dont think that resisntace is the reason why people are opposed to RK. at least that is not what i take away from the arguments

sabryant
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:21 AM
Right on Nero!!!

mbm

so what is it that you are trying to change about a horse built 60/40 balance??? Isn't the whole deal to somehow make the horse 50/50 balance. Heck, the modern horses in Europe are coming out of the womb 50/50 and some 45/55 thanks to the educated breeders! We are so used to those 60/40horses over here that we can't get past ourselves to see what the problems maybe in training these horses of a different balance. Once you have built up the muscles in front of the wither, you should be in 50/50 balance and within a rectangle from the hind thorugh to the first 1/3 (as Sue Blinks likes to put it) part of the neck. So if you have this solid foundation on a horse, it should not matter where you put the other 2/3's of his neck and face as long as you can always bring it back to competition frame!

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:26 AM
i understand that horse will become resistant. however, if they chronically are it is lack of training/riding ability.

the point i was trying to make is that i dont think that resisntace is the reason why people are opposed to RK. at least that is not what i take away from the arguments

Oh, that's all I see here, people opposed to the pics posted because of the 'ugly' resistances the horses are displaying ergo the horses looks pissed it must be the strain of rollkur and I'm saying that these resistances are not mutually exclusive to rollkur so how can you condemn the method because the horses look pissed off??? IF you are saying no to rk because you think is damages the final product then I'd also have to disagree, because every weakness evident in say, Salinero, can also be clearly witnessed in a classically trained horse, so again to blame rk seems to me misguided and clearly we cannot blame rk for a horse's inadequacies. So where's the problem?

If it just cuase you don't 'like' the 'look' of it I'd say well that's not enough to condemn a training practice.

Tonja
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:28 AM
nero wrote:

Hypothetically, what if the exact same resistances were photographed in traditionally trained horses, where the ONLY difference was that the nose was ifv not btv????? Would the anti rk brigade still be as vehemently opposed to those pics.

By their very nature, false head sets – even a forced position in front of the vertical – will produce tension, distorted gaits, increased weight on the forehand, lack of throughness and lack of engagement. Forcing the horse’s head into any position – let alone a position that compromises the horse’s balance (which is just about any forced position because the horse uses its natural head and neck position for balance) – will have a negative impact on the horse’s way of going and produce the opposite effect of what the principles of the Equestrian Art set out to accomplish.

In dressage, resistances are resolved and correct muscles are developed by refining the horse’s balance and relaxation. If the horse is resistant, it’s up to the rider to figure out and address the source of the imbalance and tension. It could be that the rider is imbalanced, tense, using inappropriate aids or that the contact is inconsistent or too strong. Or the horse may be rushing, tense, crooked or unresponsive to the driving aids. The correct application of the natural training tools (refining the rider’s skill & improving the horse’s rhythm, relaxation, contact, straightness, impulsion and collection) is completely adequate to resolve the horse’s resistances. This is an art in and of itself yet it is not out of reach of the average rider.

If the basics have been adequately applied and the horse is still resistant then the horse is either being pushed beyond its capabilities or there is likely a painful physical issue of some kind (from ill fitting tack, sore muscles or joints, etc) that must be addressed before the horse can be expected to perform.

sabryant
Jun. 13, 2006, 03:00 AM
Iancleese....what happened to your post. I thought it was rather right on target!!!

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:45 AM
nero wrote:


By their very nature, false head sets – even a forced position in front of the vertical – will produce tension, distorted gaits, increased weight on the forehand, lack of throughness and lack of engagement. Forcing the horse’s head into any position – let alone a position that compromises the horse’s balance (which is just about any forced position because the horse uses its natural head and neck position for balance) – will have a negative impact on the horse’s way of going and produce the opposite effect of what the principles of the Equestrian Art set out to accomplish.

In dressage, resistances are resolved and correct muscles are developed by refining the horse’s balance and relaxation. If the horse is resistant, it’s up to the rider to figure out and address the source of the imbalance and tension. It could be that the rider is imbalanced, tense, using inappropriate aids or that the contact is inconsistent or too strong. Or the horse may be rushing, tense, crooked or unresponsive to the driving aids. The correct application of the natural training tools (refining the rider’s skill & improving the horse’s rhythm, relaxation, contact, straightness, impulsion and collection) is completely adequate to resolve the horse’s resistances. This is an art in and of itself yet it is not out of reach of the average rider.

If the basics have been adequately applied and the horse is still resistant then the horse is either being pushed beyond its capabilities or there is likely a painful physical issue of some kind (from ill fitting tack, sore muscles or joints, etc) that must be addressed before the horse can be expected to perform.
yep ok, most resistances can be improved through better riding, (i don't think though you should discount the fact that many horses will resist simply because they will test us when we ask them to do something they'd rather not do, but anyway) but how on earth does this prove that rk is inherently evil because you see horses being resistant while being ridden rk when I've seen just as many horses, hell more probably, resisting when being schooled in a more traditional way, by some of the greats btw. Gee Biotop resisted an awful lot, is that because Klimke was unbalanced or asking too much too soon????? I think not. Does this mean classical training is flawed because Biotop was trained classically???? I think not.......you guys are just being too simplistic to suggest that rk in isolation is soley responsible for the resistances of those horses pictured. you are not looking at all the variables of the ride, you see a horse with its neck curled and automatically say that is causing the resistance???? Maybe its because the rider is asking for something really responsive at that moment, or half halting, or tapping with the whip to get legs underneath more or doing a down trans, or they became unbalanced for a moment (not something exclusive to rk riders) see what I mean, the neck position itself is not the only thing going on here so to cite it as the only reason for the tension is short sighted. The basic logic of blaming a method for something when the method you embrace can also see the same results is just flawed.

If rk is the cause of resistance why can we witness exactly the same resistances in NON RK riding?????

JSwan
Jun. 13, 2006, 06:22 AM
not according to the expert mistresses. According to mbm deep, low and btv are a heresy punishable by death with burning at the stake preferable.

I'm no ones mistress and I'm also no expert - and clearly you've never read my posts because I never condemed anything but the use of force that results in pain, anxiety and stress in the horse.

My own dressage instructor, who is so classical he poops marble, even talked about such methods and explained them - but never ever ever advocated the excesses seen so regularly now. That was never the intention of such exercises - the force and excessive use of the curb is antithetical.

I don't believe that it is necessary to purposefully cause pain and suffering in the horse to produce a winning performance. I consider the extremes of Rollkur, the excessive use the curb, the excessive use of force in bringing the horse into an unnatural position for extended periods of time - and the other extremes - to be detrimental to the horses mental and physical well being.

It's simply a matter of not approving of shortcuts in the training of the horse. Whether it's tying it high, Rollkur, soring, gingering, or any other method that purposefully introduces pain and stress to produce an artificial and exaggerated result - it is simply not appropriate - now matter how hard the audience claps.

Having said that - this or that poster may whine that their Rollkur is different than what I'm describing. I'm not talking about individual posters because I haven't seen any evidence of your riding. I'm referring to the rigorous and excessive practices currently in vogue.

sm
Jun. 13, 2006, 06:32 AM
nero writes, "...you guys are just being too simplistic to suggest that rk in isolation is soley responsible for the resistances of those horses pictured. you are not looking at all the variables of the ride, you see a horse with its neck curled and automatically say that is causing the resistance???? Maybe its because the rider is asking for something really responsive at that moment, or half halting, or tapping with the whip to get legs underneath more or doing a down trans, or they became unbalanced for a moment (not something exclusive to rk riders) see what I mean, the neck position itself is not the only thing going on here so to cite it as the only reason for the tension is short sighted. The basic logic of blaming a method for something when the method you embrace can also see the same results is just flawed. "

First, the horse does not have to resist to use RK or Straightjacket-Rollkur (to clarify from the FEI's definition of Rollkur being anything BTV). This type of riding (for lack of a better word) is what I'm referring to: http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/421/415/

Second, regarding, "basic logic of blaming a method for something when the method you embrace can also see the same results" is simply not correct --- with RK the results are impure gaits, on the forehand not moving through, and flexion at the third/fourth vertebrae. It goes back to post 355 from ideayoda -- who asks WHY?:

*****
post 355 in it's entirety: "Read the work of Gerd H. The torque on the atlas/axis meeting point (about 1/4" in size) has a factor of something like 100x. Thus 20 lbs = a ton of weight on a small area. Repeat that and the movement of the hand (backward) with a lever action of the curb and its easy to do. Do it quickly enough, repeatedly enough, and sustain it for an hour/two/three and the horse 'learns his place'.

"However, how many people have held the reins and closed their eyes and felt the action of the ring finger vs even the hand vs moving the hand backward???? There is rarely a need for more than the first to mobilize the jaw. IF the jaw is instead strapped shut, and the level employeed, what is the point? To yield the 3rd vertebrae? WHY? This is incorrrect. Flexion should be at the atlas, not the third/fourth vertebrae. It goes against every traditional principle AND betrays balance and purity of gaits."

******

Just to add, I was saddened by the last round of photos, the lack of quality of Anky's position and the whole nine yards even if we don't want to debate any longer the horse's "moment in time" frame. No where in the training photos did I see anything that resembled quality by the rider. It was a very sad round of photos, nothing I can be proud of.

fiona
Jun. 13, 2006, 07:51 AM
Just to add, I was saddened by the last round of photos, the lack of quality of Anky's position......No where in the training photos did I see anything that resembled quality by the rider. It was a very sad round of photos, nothing I can be proud of.

Please show me some pictures you do like.

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 08:01 AM
Wow, now I'm seriously confused.

Last I checked, f/d/o is forward, down and out - not BTV at all.

I've gotten on those sparkly, talented, temperamental warmbloods that have been TRASHED by heavy hands and rollkur. Ones that were labeled dangerous because they wanted to NOT be ridden anymore due to heavy hands, harsh spurs and dominance. Horses that would flip themselves over rather than being ridden again.

Once we're capable of actually getting on them without flipping, bucking, rearing or having a fit, F/D/O and hands like feathers bring them around. Getting the hind end going, harnessing the energy with half halts not through the hand at all, but through the seat and core and all of a sudden they are fluid, expressive and beautiful instead of rearing and bucking and stopping.

So hey - maybe I'm biased since I've had to deal with those horses whose minds have been blown by these heavy handed tactics. I don't get "fresh out of the box" new warmbloods - I get the ones who have been ridden for a few years in competition dressage and fried. *shrug*

You know, but whatever floats your boat - since obviously you RK proponents are the ONLY ones that ever have quality horses :confused:

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 08:30 AM
Incidentally, this moved me enough that after I went home to feed, I hugged my 3 year old and told him that he was safe from all of that forever. I don't do that often.

Ghazzu
Jun. 13, 2006, 08:56 AM
sorry for being crass, but b&^%$@!#. I challenge anyone to get on a willful, talented seven year old warmblood stallion that is being asked to perform international quality movements full of expression and submission that has not been asked 'firmly', at some point, to do this - you'd be coming off second best that's for sure. The lovely, airy fairy world of gentle, sweet riding exists only in the minds of the idealistic and the backyard horse 'lover'. To get a world class athlete to perform at international level there is going to be some training under duress at some point - that's the reality. I do not condone cruelty at all, but I am realistic, knowing that to get results sometimes these strong beasts have to be convinced they want to piaffe, collect, go forward etc.

PErhaps if the rider/trainer of the above 7 year old example wasn't expecting "world class" "international level" movements at such a relatively young age, things might require less "duress"?



If you think Anky has a lack of ability or talent and therefore resorts to rollkur I feel sorry for you, and you've obviously never seen her ride!


I don't question her talent, just her techniques.

TBCheval
Jun. 13, 2006, 08:57 AM
you guys are just being too simplistic to suggest that rk in isolation is soley responsible for the resistances of those horses pictured. you are not looking at all the variables of the ride, you see a horse with its neck curled and automatically say that is causing the resistance???? Maybe its because the rider is asking for something really responsive at that moment, or half halting, or tapping with the whip to get legs underneath more or doing a down trans, or they became unbalanced for a moment (not something exclusive to rk riders) see what I mean, the neck position itself is not the only thing going on here so to cite it as the only reason for the tension is short sighted.One of my questions about rollkur stems precisely from the other variables of the ride. Will someone please clarify for me - is rollkur a stretching exercise or is it not? If it is to be an effective stretch, nothing else "really responsive" should be asked at the same time. Ideally stretching is not done under tension and therefore the rider would not be making difficult requests of the horse or putting him in a position to become unbalanced during the process. While I know that assisted stretching (not the stretching a horse might do on his own) is often done in motion under saddle, it is something I personally prefer not to do as I believe it significantly reduces the benefit of the stretch. If rollkur is not intended to stretch the muscles of the neck and back as I have read here, please tell me what it is intended to do. Thanks!

sm
Jun. 13, 2006, 10:37 AM
post 392: "Please show me some pictures you do like."

Anything (many in competition) that doesn't involve the "broken neck" look. We can include the freewalk PHOTOS because you can't see the quality of the gait, if it was video where you saw the entire event -- the quality of the rider to engage the horse to a true free walk probably wouldn't be there (atleast it wasn't there in the few Anky videos I've seen).

sm
Jun. 13, 2006, 10:39 AM
"Will someone please clarify for me - is rollkur a stretching exercise or is it not?"

According to the FEI, RK is anything behind the vertical. Which is why this new phrase "straightjacket" is being used to describe more the OP photos http://horsesforlife.com/HorsesForLI...gazineJune2006

TBCheval
Jun. 13, 2006, 10:52 AM
"Will someone please clarify for me - is rollkur a stretching exercise or is it not?"

According to the FEI, RK is anything behind the vertical. Which is why this new phrase "straightjacket" is being used to describe more the OP photos http://horsesforlife.com/HorsesForLI...gazineJune2006Sorry if I wasn't clear. I wasn't actually asking for a definition - I would like to know what its purpose is.

Tonja
Jun. 13, 2006, 12:20 PM
nero wrote:

yep ok, most resistances can be improved through better riding, (i don't think though you should discount the fact that many horses will resist simply because they will test us when we ask them to do something they'd rather not do, but anyway) but how on earth does this prove that rk is inherently evil because you see horses being resistant while being ridden rk when I've seen just as many horses, hell more probably resisting when being schooled in a more traditional way, by some of the greats btw. Gee Biotop resisted an awful lot, is that because Klimke was unbalanced or asking too much too soon????? I think not. Does this mean classical training is nflawed because Biotop was trained classically???? I think not.......you guys are just being too simplistic tyo suggest that rk in isolation is soley responsible for the resistances of those horses pictured. you are not looking at all the variables of the ride, you see a horse with its neck curled and automatically say that is causing the resistance???? Maybe its because the rider is asking something really responsive at that moment, or half halting, or tapping with the whipe to get legs underneath more or doing a down trans, see what I mean, the neck position itself is not the only thing going on here so to cite it as the only reason for the tension is short sighted.

A key aspect of dressage is eliciting the horse’s willing participation. If the rider is asking something of the horse in a way that creates resistance then the problem is in how or what the rider is asking.

Some may question whether or not rollkur leads to resistance. I can see how it could. But a stronger argument can be made that even the correct use of rollkur restricts the horse’s freedom of movement which creates tension, distorted gaits, false head sets, increased weight on the forehand, lack of throughness and lack of engagement. Whereas riding a horse in correct balance improves the gaits, releases tension, improves the contact, facilitates throughness and increases engagement. Sure, those who ride classically can make mistakes at times but those who value the principles of the art are willing to acknowledge flaws in their work and do not try to pass flaws off as correct.

Horsedances
Jun. 13, 2006, 01:47 PM
nero wrote:


A key aspect of dressage is eliciting the horse’s willing participation. If the rider is asking something of the horse in a way that creates resistance then the problem is in how or what the rider is asking.

Some may question whether or not rollkur leads to resistance. I can see how it could. But a stronger argument can be made that even the correct use of rollkur restricts the horse’s freedom of movement which creates tension, distorted gaits, false head sets, increased weight on the forehand, lack of throughness and lack of engagement. Whereas riding a horse in correct balance improves the gaits, releases tension, improves the contact, facilitates throughness and increases engagement. Sure, those who ride classically can make mistakes at times but those who value the principles of the art are willing to acknowledge flaws in their work and do not try to pass flaws off as correct.

Flaws in a dressagetest will be scored down by the judges, however already for some years it seems that the judges of today don't see this as flaws. These (what you call) RK-riders are beating everyone, getting worldrecord scores, so they probably do show what the judges want to see. Furthermore I really think it is wrong to talk about RK as a training-system. I rather call it a "warm-up system".

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:21 PM
Yes, this I see as an issue. I see tense and resisting horses who are brilliant be rewarded despite those flaws. I see grotesque movement winning over correct riding because of the flashiness - and Rollkur fits right in there as a warmup/training/whatever technique.

sm
Jun. 13, 2006, 02:30 PM
Yes, some judges go with the "wow factor" over real dressage.

However the FEI pledged in Article 419 in "Rules For Dressage Events," 22nd Edition, January 2006: -- Object of International Dressage Events: "The FEI instituted an International Dressage Event in 1929 in order to preserve the equestrian art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come."

Dollars win the day over Article 419 . This is where they dropped the ball by not preserving purity of gaits, etc: "preserve the equestrian art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come."

sabryant
Jun. 13, 2006, 03:57 PM
Women were not given the right to vote until 1920. I doubt there was a single woman on the board of the FEI when they made their solemn pledge in 1929. Now, the sport is nearly comsumed by women, it is a whole other ball game and the beat goes on despite this pledge from a group of men who never dreamed that one day women would inundate their solitary sport.

sm
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:04 PM
It did survive the 22nd Edition, published January 2006. Obviously, other things were edited. Why PLEDGE then not fulfill? And why move away from the principles of dressage if they have to simultaneously scratch their heads and hold committees on the effects of RK?

Are you blaming this on women or men --- who are the judges who are scoring away from upholding article 419?

JSwan
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:06 PM
Women were not given the right to vote until 1920. I doubt there was a single woman on the board of the FEI when they made their solemn pledge in 1929. Now, the sport is nearly comsumed by women, it is a whole other ball game and the beat goes on despite this pledge from a group of men who never dreamed that one day women would inundate their solitary sport.

WTF? How in the world does US voting rights politics in the early part of the 20th century have anything to do with Rollkur???????????????????

Ellie K
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:11 PM
Actually, women did not get the vote in Switzerland until 1971:eek:. But that's neither here nor there...since final approval for all FEI rules has never rested with any FEI board; it has always been amongst the statutory authorities granted the FEI's member National Federations, in session each year at the General Assembly. Of course, there probably weren't many women on their boards (and still aren't, in a great many places).

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:13 PM
I'm with JSwan with a big HUH?

Whether women were involved or not, it was still a pledge. So what are you saying, now that women are involved it shouldn't be????

*shaking head* :confused: Unfortunately the confused icon doesn't look confused enough for where I'm at right now.

bjrudq
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:13 PM
and now women are toblame for rollkur?

that's just ludicrous.

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:20 PM
Actually - the poster who said that is a proponent of rollkur - so I guess women are to uhh...thank?

I think what bothers me so much about the whole issue is that the dressage community IN GENERAL is so...well, uppity about the health and safety of the horse.

You know...the old "what that horse needs is dressssaagggggeeeee"

"That horse wouldn't have (insert x here) if they had been trained in drrrresssagggge"

And then to promote a system of training that is not only harmful, but incorrect, unclassical and, well, a bastardization of dressage - just... well quite frankly that BAFFLES me.

sabryant
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:20 PM
There is a big issue of strength between men and women. Men tend to ride with more strength. Women tend to finesse more the horse by using other techniques, like deep, RK and etc. to get these big strong horses through the back. And don't try to tell me men don't use strength because I have ridden behind plenty of them that do and it is not easy.

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:23 PM
But...I saw men using RK - not women. I mean, yes, Anky, but...:confused:

Did you even watch the video sabryant?

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:24 PM
Oh, and what I saw was anything BUT finesse. It was brute strength.

Besides, *getting angrier*, there is no d*mn way you need to put so much "strength" against a horse's mouth.

THAT is wrong, whether the rider be male, female or otherwise.

sm
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:27 PM
... so women are overmounted now? (Hard to imagine on 18 hand horses. ) And because of that they need to be abusive??? (Not find a smaller horse.) I wonder, how ever does our petite Debbie McDonald get along...

Actually Boucher used RK. A strength issue there too?

sabryant
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:30 PM
As I said before in another post, if the leg aid is just as strong and meets the hand aid and is equal in the strength of the leg aid, it is correct riding. How can you tell this in a photo or a video for that matter. You would have to be in the riders boots to tell about this.

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:34 PM
Well first of all, I can see it in the video. If you can't tell the strength of a leg aid, then perhaps you ought'nt to be teaching.

Besides, once again, should the upper body strength required be any more than 5lbs, which I do think excessive, then you've got a problem with rider and training - not with "excessive strength".

It's not the physical pounds of pressure in hand that harnesses the energy that is going forward, perhaps that's where the issue lies. I can harness that energy with featherlight hands and half halts using my body - THAT is correct riding.

Tell me, if I can squeeze with 40 lbs of pressure with my legs (perfectly possible - I do weightlifting exercises and can do this with my inner thigh and calf), are you *really* saying I should be PULLING with 40 lbs of pressure onto my poor horse's mouth?

BALONEY!

sm
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:34 PM
Okay, just so I understand:

We moved away from Article 419 (even though it survived the 2006 edits) because women are overmounted and/or ineffectual riders. The judges, realizing this, quickly threw 419 out the window but kept it "hush-hush," comprehending it was more important to keep the little women happy than honor classic dressage principles.

Is that about right? Because that's what I'm understanding.

****
Article 419 in "Rules For Dressage Events," 22nd Edition, January 2006: -- Object of International Dressage Events: "The FEI instituted an International Dressage Event in 1929 in order to preserve the equestrian art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come."

****

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:36 PM
And, continuing my train of thought,

If the leg aid is not to be 40 lbs, then would it not be perfectly within the realm of "normal" training for a "woman" to be able to use the reins - just as you have described?

I still think it's a bunch of malarkey, but...maybe I'm just not seeing where you are going with this.

No, I definitely don't see where you are going with this.

Cranking on the head with 40 lbs of pressure is NEVER okay. I don't give a rats patootie whether you are male or female. Remember, that pressure magnifies when using the curb bit.

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 04:37 PM
The judges, realizing this, quickly threw 419 out the window but kept it "hush-hush," comprehending it was more important to keep the little women happy than honor classic dressage principles.

Tee hee hee - I'm sorry, I just had to comment that this made me laugh at the thought of the judges discusisng this and coming to this conclusion. I thank you, because I was getting pretty darn angry.

JSwan
Jun. 13, 2006, 05:06 PM
I'm sorry - I am simply just absolutely and completely flabbergasted - for once in my life I'm speechless. And has been pointed out - I can blather along with the best of them.

So now women can't ride as well as men and dressage had to be dumbed down to accomodate them????????????????

Ze pauvre leetle femmes - zey cannot ride le dressage - zey are too delicate - let us create ze rollkur pour les pauvre femmes - but do not tell zem - ze pauvre leetle pumpkeens....

Ladies and germs - we've officially come full circle. Women working their asses off to achieve suffrage, Rosie the Riveter proving that women can indeed work as hard and we well as men, then we have the bra burning era, the Pill, and now - this is the thanks those women get for all that sacrifice. Young women have gone back to thinking women are weak and must be accomodated.

I spit on that.

Ghazzu
Jun. 13, 2006, 05:11 PM
As I said before in another post, if the leg aid is just as strong and meets the hand aid and is equal in the strength of the leg aid, it is correct riding. How can you tell this in a photo or a video for that matter. You would have to be in the riders boots to tell about this.

Do you really mean to say that, if one uses a vicegrip leg that it is *correct*, just so long as you also have a fierce hold on the face?

Ick in extremis.

Tonja
Jun. 13, 2006, 05:41 PM
sabrtabt wrote:

There is a big issue of strength between men and women. Men tend to ride with more strength. Women tend to finesse more the horse by using other techniques, like deep, RK and etc. to get these big strong horses through the back. And don't try to tell me men don't use strength because I have ridden behind plenty of them that do and it is not easy.

Dressage is the art of refining communication and balance. When horses are taught correctly, brute strength is not required because the horses are eager to please. In fact, communication between horse and rider can develop to a point where aids become imperceptible to the onlooker. :yes:

Sannois
Jun. 13, 2006, 06:13 PM
sabrtabt wrote:


Dressage is the art of refining communication and balance. When horses are taught correctly, brute strength is not required because the horses are eager to please. In fact, communication between horse and rider can develop to a point where aids become imperceptible to the onlooker. :yes:
But it seems many of the experts on here have forgotten what Dressage is and what its purpose is!!! :no:
See the problem is Sab doesnt seem to agree with what she wrote, if she is such a cheerleader for RK.

Rusty Stirrup
Jun. 13, 2006, 06:28 PM
I used to say that I thought a lot of dressage riders would be happier riding five gaited Saddlebreds, but I'm begining to think they may be just too rough for that sensitive breed, if what I'm reading is true.

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 07:40 PM
PErhaps if the rider/trainer of the above 7 year old example wasn't expecting "world class" "international level" movements at such a relatively young age, things might require less "duress"?



So you don't think someone riding a seven year old in an international quality 4th level test is appropriate???? You can be asking for some pretty amazing things from a horse without it being FEI you know!

mbm
Jun. 13, 2006, 09:18 PM
i have to admit that i have finally come to the conclusion that sabyrant is a troll... and if not that then he/she has never ridden or trained a horse in her/his life. (and shouldn't given what has been written here).

because first s/he teaches all babies in rollkur, then she tell us that the muscle in front of the withers changes the laws of physics and takes the head/neck out of the equation - which is just as well since we are also told that as long as you use equal force you can crank and spank to hell and back because the forces cancel each other out - and now, since women are so weak, a method has been invented (in a giant conspiracy) that will allow women to tame the wild beast that their horses become (due of course to the horrid way they are ridden)

this sure doesnt sound like the dressage that i know and love. however, i wouldnt be surprised if this isnt what some people think dressage is all about, given the state of (mis) information, and lack of desire to learn that is so prevelant in certain circles.

my last thoughts on the subject is that i am grateful to Horses for Life (and others) for presenting such a compelling web site and videos so that many many more folks can see what Rollkur is all about. It is the visual that will kill Rollkur because it is so ugly. (i think that the powers that be know this and try to control the rollkur image, or tried - it isnt working anymore thankfully) .

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:05 PM
i have to admit that i have finally come to the conclusion that sabyrant is a troll... and if not that then he/she has never ridden or trained a horse in her/his life. (and shouldn't given what has been written here).

because first s/he teaches all babies in rollkur, then she tell us that the muscle in front of the withers changes the laws of physics and takes the head/neck out of the equation - which is just as well since we are also told that as long as you use equal force you can crank and spank to hell and back because the forces cancel each other out - and now, since women are so weak, a method has been invented (in a giant conspiracy) that will allow women to tame the wild beast that their horses become (due of course to the horrid way they are ridden)

this sure doesnt sound like the dressage that i know and love. however, i wouldnt be surprised if this isnt what some people think dressage is all about, given the state of (mis) information, and lack of desire to learn that is so prevelant in certain circles.

my last thoughts on the subject is that i am grateful to Horses for Life (and others) for presenting such a compelling web site and videos so that many many more folks can see what Rollkur is all about. It is the visual that will kill Rollkur because it is so ugly. (i think that the powers that be know this and try to control the rollkur image, or tried - it isnt working anymore thankfully) .

I feel it is this overly emotive and imflammatory type of reaction that will ultimately kill the anti rk debate, in all areas bar these strange internet threads that is - these type of forums will sustain people with not much knowledge of the issue other than what they read in forums like this and on dodgy websites like the one in discussion for many years probably, and in the meantime horses will continue to be schooled in rk and cope very well and living well into their 20's with no major health problems or muscle damage like the Bonfires and Gigolos of this world.

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:08 PM
Wanna take bets?

:)

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:28 PM
Wanna take bets?

:)

Well in my corner we have Bonfire and Gigolo who ARE in their 20's, both healthy and both still being ridden, we have Salinero, who, I'm afraid, must be one of the most consistently sound GP horses at the moment (can't remember when he has ever been scratched due to illness/unsoundness - I can give you a list of more classically trained horses that are chroncially unsound) not to mention the FEI study showed no ill effects from hyperflexion in these horses, and a plethora of other horses conpeting week in week out in the peak of physical condition to give me the impression that rk isn't unduly affecting them in terms of health. What tangible proof have you got to say that rk IS unduly affecting these horses?

So yeah, I'll take a bet.

OakesBrae
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:34 PM
Actually, I was being a little glib. Is that the right word? I think I shouldn't post late at night.

To me, it's not the physical deleterious effects, but rather the mental. I've watched performances of those listed below and haven't been terrifically impressed - they have gone against so much of what I was taught in Europe.

As I mentioned - I've ridden fried rollkured horses - and I'd rather go on a no rollkur diet, thank you very much.

That being said - I appreciate intelligent discourse about it.

One thing that struck me as funny tonight, I stretch my neck out by bending it to my chest periodically as I have a very bad neck with cervical stenosis and that helps to relieve some of the pain. However, I was warned not to by my orthopedic surgeon as that lengthens and damages the ligaments in the back of my neck.

So, as I was stretching idly while perusing some websites, I tried rollkur on myself (a common feeling) and then f/d/o, and I discovered something interesting. When rollkuring I didn't have to involve my stomach muscles. I could if I so desired, but I didn't have to. While doing f/d/o, I *had* to involve my stomach muscles.

Just kind of an interesting observation.

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:41 PM
Actually, I was being a little glib. Is that the right word? I think I shouldn't post late at night.

To me, it's not the physical deleterious effects, but rather the mental. I've watched performances of those listed below and haven't been terrifically impressed - they have gone against so much of what I was taught in Europe.

As I mentioned - I've ridden fried rollkured horses - and I'd rather go on a no rollkur diet, thank you very much.

That being said - I appreciate intelligent discourse about it.

One thing that struck me as funny tonight, I stretch my neck out by bending it to my chest periodically as I have a very bad neck with cervical stenosis and that helps to relieve some of the pain. However, I was warned not to by my orthopedic surgeon as that lengthens and damages the ligaments in the back of my neck.

So, as I was stretching idly while perusing some websites, I tried rollkur on myself (a common feeling) and then f/d/o, and I discovered something interesting. When rollkuring I didn't have to involve my stomach muscles. I could if I so desired, but I didn't have to. While doing f/d/o, I *had* to involve my stomach muscles.

Just kind of an interesting observation.

I think the mistake people make is that they THINK they are riding rollkur just because they are dragging the head into the chest - this is not rollkur folks, not the way Anky and her students do it anyway, so when people say they've ridden rk or horses trained that way by some unknown rider in Europe, I'm skeptical that the way those horses in question are ridden resembles anything Anky and her cohorts are doing. So few people really ride rk, and even fewer do it correctly. And this is probably where most of the anger over supposed rk starts, you see someone jamming up their horse or over flexing it with no finesse or release and you assume this is rk and therefore it is a bad technique. NO.... it is bad riding, period. Anky don't ride this way, that's for sure.

Another thing that makes me laugh is when people try to empathise with a horse by comparing their own physiology with that of a horse???!!!!

Sabine
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:51 PM
Nero darling- why are you engaging in this stupid debate...???
No matter what you say- they will not listen- no matter how patient you are -they will accuse you of being insensitive, brutal, not qualified or whatever....
Let it go- let those that are standing on the sidelines- keep on standing on the sidelines, postulating classical dressage principles..that they are not really sure about...
It's much more fun to DO it - and not talk about it- then to try and spoonfeed it to a crowd that doesn't listen.

off into the shower after a great ride...:)) with some horrendous deep and stretching and flexing...OMG.

nero
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:53 PM
Nero darling- why are you engaging in this stupid debate...???
No matter what you say- they will not listen- no matter how patient you are -they will accuse you of being insensitive, brutal, not qualified or whatever....
Let it go- let those that are standing on the sidelines- keep on standing on the sidelines, postulating classical dressage principles..that they are not really sure about...
It's much more fun to DO it - and not talk about it- then to try and spoonfeed it to a crowd that doesn't listen.

off into the shower after a great ride...:)) with some horrendous deep and stretching and flexing...OMG. Oh honey, you know, I'm just killing time, what can I say!!!! I should be working, but instead using this as a distraction - am I bad? :-)

sabryant
Jun. 13, 2006, 11:58 PM
Good post Nero and nice explanation. Sabine, however, is right...some of these people's only defense is to resort to name calling.

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:00 AM
mbm, I am wondering why you didn't use the direct quotes of all these things that I have said. Must be your interpretation. REread my posts!



i have to admit that i have finally come to the conclusion that sabyrant is a troll... and if not that then he/she has never ridden or trained a horse in her/his life. (and shouldn't given what has been written here).

because first s/he teaches all babies in rollkur, then she tell us that the muscle in front of the withers changes the laws of physics and takes the head/neck out of the equation - which is just as well since we are also told that as long as you use equal force you can crank and spank to hell and back because the forces cancel each other out - and now, since women are so weak, a method has been invented (in a giant conspiracy) that will allow women to tame the wild beast that their horses become (due of course to the horrid way they are ridden)

this sure doesnt sound like the dressage that i know and love. however, i wouldnt be surprised if this isnt what some people think dressage is all about, given the state of (mis) information, and lack of desire to learn that is so prevelant in certain circles.

my last thoughts on the subject is that i am grateful to Horses for Life (and others) for presenting such a compelling web site and videos so that many many more folks can see what Rollkur is all about. It is the visual that will kill Rollkur because it is so ugly. (i think that the powers that be know this and try to control the rollkur image, or tried - it isnt working anymore thankfully) .

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:09 AM
And furthermore, why should some ODG's principle's for their era, engineer Anky's circumstances on a 17h, 7 years old, fracious stallion!

Sabine
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:26 AM
SAB in response to MBM's post- I must give you the award for "Rollkur Saint".
Knowing you and reading your response- you are a saint- with patience coming out of your ears...good for you.

MBM, SAB is a pro, she is kind and she knows how to teach ammies, she's right about a ton of stuff she has carefully explained here- frankly I don't have a tenth of her patience- but that's besides the point.
Why don't you see if you can read some of her posts and ride your mare and see if you can possibly feel some of the concepts she's trying to convey..??
This may be not possible- but at least worth a try.

In general calling people trolls is a touchy subject...normally you end up in the glass house yourself...:(

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:06 AM
sabrtabt wrote:


Dressage is the art of refining communication and balance. When horses are taught correctly, brute strength is not required because the horses are eager to please. In fact, communication between horse and rider can develop to a point where aids become imperceptible to the onlooker. :yes:


Tonja

I've never been on a horse in my life where everything started out light and airy. As I said before, horses don't think logically. They don't understand that bending and suppling themselves helps them become more agile and balanced. In the beginning it takes a certain amount of strength and hard riding to explain this concept to them. I cannot imagine that you can get on a 1500 lb. horse and teach it any amount of self carriage with light aids in the beginning of it's training. But then again, I'm not living in your world.

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:12 AM
Do you really mean to say that, if one uses a vicegrip leg that it is *correct*, just so long as you also have a fierce hold on the face?

Ick in extremis.


an aid should last only as long as it takes to get it across to the horse's brain. That is why using a crisp, sharp aid is better than a constant aid any day of the week. but when you see this happen, you scream, bloody murder, this is abuse

nero
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:20 AM
mbm, why do you always seem to assume that someone who does not agree with you is a troll?

Tonja
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:26 AM
sabryant wrote:

And furthermore, why should some ODG's principle's for their era, engineer Anky's circumstances on a 17h, 7 years old, fracious stallion!

Dressage is the art of the application of its principles. These principles weren’t selected on some arbitrary whim. They are based on the laws of nature. The principles don’t change. Judges and riders can either choose to work in accordance with the principles of the Equestrian Art or they can choose not to but they can not change the principles/the laws of nature that are the very essence of dressage.

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:38 AM
Tonja

you forgot to add that the nature of the horse's comformation has changed dramatically. So tell me again about the laws of nature?

nero
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:38 AM
sabryant wrote:


The principles don’t change.

Sure they can, particularly when the art is organic and progressive like one involving animals and humans.

Principles surrounding a whole bunch of issues like music, politics, social behaviour change all the time, in accordance not only with expectations and morals of society but also because of the evolution of humanity.

The horses we ride have changed an awful lot too, the expectations of what they can do also have changed, heck even the nature of what we ask them to do has changed, the gp test is now more complex and demanding than it was 50 years ago (think about the amount of transistions, the complexity of the movements, etc) and training and its principles has changed accordingly.

mbm
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:44 AM
MBM, SAB is a pro, she is kind and she knows how to teach ammies, she's right about a ton of stuff she has carefully explained here- frankly I don't have a tenth of her patience- but that's besides the point.
Why don't you see if you can read some of her posts and ride your mare and see if you can possibly feel some of the concepts she's trying to convey..??
This may be not possible- but at least worth a try.

In general calling people trolls is a touchy subject...normally you end up in the glass house yourself...:(

sabine - all i can do is go by what has been written here.... and for a while i tried to follow what sabyrant was writing.... i could not tell if she was talking about deep/rollkur or fdo... and when i asked (in good faith) i was never answered...

in any case, i didnt have an opinion one way or the other until she started posting things like the laws of physics change and that the head and neck dont matter, and as long as you use as much hand as leg it doenst matter how much pressure, something about the women getting the vote in the US and training methods..... etc etc.

those things first off dont make sense and second dont jibe with what i know of physics and horses.

i understand full well that writing about riding is very difficult for some people.... i am one of those folks that has a very hard time writing what i feel in riding..

i dont normally get into personal comments but some of the rhetoric that was being written was a bit much, and to me at least, it seemd that what was being written was being written to enflame, since to me it seemd to be getting more and more outrageous as the posts went by - to the point of being (to me at least) completely divorced from riding altogether. and the minds eye picture i was getting was making me pissed that someone would actually ride that way. i may be totally misunderstanding what was written.... but i dont think that you can change the way physics effects a horse. and i also dont think that by using equal amount of foorce with the leg you can cancel out the force of the hand. (and i wasnt the only one that read the posts that way)

i also have no problem experimenting with my mare and do it often. i am, in general, open to new ideas - if an idea is in the relm of my "worldview" then i may attempt it... if it is a bit out of my worldview then i will at the very least do research and see what is written about it.... or ask my trainer ... i cant tell you how many times i have had my mind changed about something because i learned more about it or some other thing.... .it happens all the time. i would like to think i am a good student and that i am progressing continually. i am not as closed minded as some may think. i just happen to have a very definate opinion about certain subjects based on what i have seen (in real life) and what i have ridden. and also on what i want to see happening on the dressage world. more than anything i have the welfare of the horses foremost in my mind.

i spent a year at a place where many people with "interesting" abilities did interesting things to horses.... which really affected me.

I have also learned a lot from the rolkur debates... not the least being some interesting insights into how people interact on the net as opposed to real life. I would love to have this debate face to face with those here. i think *that* would be interesting :)

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:45 AM
Speaking of the laws of nature and according to the author of the Origin of the Species, Anky and Salinero would rank at the top of their element!!

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:51 AM
mbm

no worries! I understand and there have been a few times that I left something out of my post that was very important to the meaning of it. I did, however, go back and fix it. So please reread the post again. Thanks

Gaia
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:58 AM
Like law of gravitation.

Any stone falls. Diamond or rubble.

When the rider gives the rein law of gravity places the head on a submissive horse - and it´s the most comfortable for both of them. A very small disturbance of the force is "feelable" when the amount of force used is so small.

Another law - many ways lead to Rome. But there is one straight way - as the crow flies. The rider that can ride with a straight line contact will have the fastest route to communication with the horse - all the others must first correct the "line of command" then communicate.

There are more. The important thing - the laws of physics apply, always. We can breed to make it easier for horses to use their bodies in our service. Let´s not forget though that even the horse reacting instantly to our mind has an inertia mass x speed that must be brought under balance or the horse will be unbalanced. If we want a turn - one-track and bend - the horse must have a chance to arrange his body and balance to let that happen.
Do give the physics a thought,anyway!

Tonja
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:01 AM
The laws of gravity apply to horses today just as is did in the past. :yes:

Tonja
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:03 AM
sabryant wrote:

I've never been on a horse in my life where everything started out light and airy. As I said before, horses don't think logically. They don't understand that bending and suppling themselves helps them become more agile and balanced. In the beginning it takes a certain amount of strength and hard riding to explain this concept to them. I cannot imagine that you can get on a 1500 lb. horse and teach it any amount of self carriage with light aids in the beginning of it's training. But then again, I'm not living in your world.

Actually I can get on a 1500 lb. horse, in the beginning of its training and, with light aids, teach it an appropriate degree of independent balance. I’m sorry to hear that you have never been on a horse where everything started out light and airy. To horsemen the horse’s logic is no mystery and everything from the very basic elements of training to the most advanced movements can be taught to the horse without resorting to brute force. As I stated in my previous post, Dressage is the art of the application of its principles. I think that, in general, the height of the refinement of dressage has been greatly underestimated.

ideayoda
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:03 AM
The GP test is less demanding now. Just two of the changes off the top: It was 15 minutes plus at one point. There was a 'rocker' which demanded that the horse really be on the aids, something rarely shown well done (so its removed).

Sabine
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:08 AM
MBM,
that was a nice post- and I guess a more human view of what you do and how you feel. I can sense that this is all very ovrwhelming and confusing at times and I can share with you that I felt the same many times.

Dressage is a weird sport- it's a sport that requires fitness of a true athlete- yet the sensitivity of a tight-rope-walker and the brain of an above average intellectual- but just so you can absorb all the information- because the real truth is in your gut- it's your intuition- it's your natural feel of - this is good this is bad- this is right and this is wrong. It's ultimately your connection to your horse- your ability to hear what he/she says and your innate ethics on how you apply what you hear. And that is where many throw out the ODGs and say- let's be clean in our feel and brain and let's just experience what we feel- on a good and strong basis of understanding the mechanics and skeleton and workings of the horse. This approach leaves you with much less baggage and more ability to be creative and intuitive- and this is where real riding starts. But as you ride- you always love your horse!!

And this is mainly why I can not share anymore in these RK debates- because I do not believe that certain RK pracitioners are unkind or not loving their horses, I do not believe that they don't have above average intelligence and feel. I do believe that any apparent pattern of a recipe for success will be copied by villains and folks that do not have the skill and therefore bastardize it.

Disclaimer: I do not know how to ride RK.

Sabine
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:11 AM
sabryant wrote:


Actually I can get on a 1500 lb. horse, in the beginning of its training and, with light aids, teach it an appropriate degree of independent balance. I’m sorry to hear that you have never been on a horse where everything started out light and airy. To horsemen the horse’s logic is no mystery and everything from the very basic elements of training to the most advanced movements can be taught to the horse without resorting to brute force. As I stated in my previous post, Dressage is the art of the application of its principles. I think that, in general, the height of the refinement of dressage has been greatly underestimated.


Tonja-none of the horses on your website even approach 1500 pds...I don't know how you can fairly make this statement- or maybe you need to update your website with some powerful WBs that acutally weigh in at 1500 pds....

Tonja
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:16 AM
Gaia wrote:


Like law of gravitation.

Any stone falls. Diamond or rubble.

When the rider gives the rein law of gravity places the head on a submissive horse - and it´s the most comfortable for both of them. A very small disturbance of the force is "feelable" when the amount of force used is so small.

Another law - many ways lead to Rome. But there is one straight way - as the crow flies. The rider that can ride with a straight line contact will have the fastest route to communication with the horse - all the others must first correct the "line of command" then communicate.

There are more. The important thing - the laws of physics apply, always. We can breed to make it easier for horses to use their bodies in our service. Let´s not forget though that even the horse reacting instantly to our mind has an inertia mass x speed that must be brought under balance or the horse will be unbalanced. If we want a turn - one-track and bend - the horse must have a chance to arrange his body and balance to let that happen.
Do give the physics a thought,anyway!
Thank you, Gaia. Your post goes directly to the point I was trying to make.

mbm
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:18 AM
im sorry, i was done for the nite but then read that some feel that they need to use brute force to train a youngster. before i get all upset about this statement can someone please tell me when, why, how long, you would be using said brute force?

in other words can you please give examples?

nero
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:36 AM
The GP test is less demanding now. Just two of the changes off the top: It was 15 minutes plus at one point. There was a 'rocker' which demanded that the horse really be on the aids, something rarely shown well done (so its removed). I disagree, length does not equal more demanding, transitions come up much more quickly than they used to, the old gp tests were more like a schooling session , albeit a tricky one, with more down time, now you are riding movements that come up so quickly and require such precision that it almost takes your breath away, the horses sooo need to be precisley on the aids. Also I don't believe they were riding ones in all gp tests a long while back.

Tonja
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:38 AM
Sabine wrote:

Tonja-none of the horses on your website even approach 1500 pds...

You’d be surprised!

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:41 AM
Tonja

I've never been on a horse in my life where everything started out light and airy. As I said before, horses don't think logically. They don't understand that bending and suppling themselves helps them become more agile and balanced. In the beginning it takes a certain amount of strength and hard riding to explain this concept to them. I cannot imagine that you can get on a 1500 lb. horse and teach it any amount of self carriage with light aids in the beginning of it's training. But then again, I'm not living in your world.


mbm

this is where things get so mixed up. Please re-read my post. there is nothing about it that talks about "brute force." And I said that it takes a certain amount of strength in the BEGINNING...not yelling, rather emphasizing that over time your aids get lighter and lighter and more refined as the horse develops the proper carriage.

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:46 AM
Like law of gravitation.

Any stone falls. Diamond or rubble.

When the rider gives the rein law of gravity places the head on a submissive horse - and it´s the most comfortable for both of them. A very small disturbance of the force is "feelable" when the amount of force used is so small.

Another law - many ways lead to Rome. But there is one straight way - as the crow flies. The rider that can ride with a straight line contact will have the fastest route to communication with the horse - all the others must first correct the "line of command" then communicate.

There are more. The important thing - the laws of physics apply, always. We can breed to make it easier for horses to use their bodies in our service. Let´s not forget though that even the horse reacting instantly to our mind has an inertia mass x speed that must be brought under balance or the horse will be unbalanced. If we want a turn - one-track and bend - the horse must have a chance to arrange his body and balance to let that happen.
Do give the physics a thought,anyway!

Gaja

If the horse is trained to inside leg and in first position you should not have to be rebalanced in order to make a turn. The whole point of teaching a horse to the inside leg is for the ability to make a movement or exercise when and wherever you want to with not a big effort in re-balance

Gaia
Jun. 14, 2006, 04:16 AM
Gaja

If the horse is trained to inside leg and in first position you should not have to be rebalanced in order to make a turn. The whole point of teaching a horse to the inside leg is for the ability to make a movement or exercise when and wherever you want to with not a big effort in re-balance

Absolutely. And it works until tempo/speed forces the equipage to trail to the side (centrifugal force = law of nature).

(edited to add that it is the same with cars - drive an old Volvo at breakneck speed in a curve and you fall off the road - drive the same road with a new BMW - you stay easily on the road - but then you put "pedal to the metal" and go beyond the physics of the situation - and fall off the road... Here in Sweden about a 100 young men find out about the laws of nature the hard way on their motorcycles each year. They die - believing that their machines can beat reality...)

I am sorry to see though, a lot of competitors in GP that keep horses straight - as in not positioned as you describe it so well. They ride with hard waterskiing hands and over tempo. In turns the horse does a cross between turn on fore-hand and leg yielding as the horse is not allowed to bend and shift the balance.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 06:49 AM
I think there is much misunderstanding in this thread.

Did anyone other than myself notice NO release in the video? To those RK proponents - did you watch the video in question?

Now, as to empathizing with the horse - that wasn't my point - and if you'd have read my post clearly, you would have realized that I found it *INTERESTING* that when my chin was stretched down to my chest, which I do in a vain attempt to stretch out my damaged neck, I could completely disengage my stomach muscles. With it placed in a f/d/o position (which, for me, is really forward down and lift the chin a bit) my stomach muscles had to be engaged. I simply found this INTERESTING - did not say "oh this is why the horse does so".


And I said that it takes a certain amount of strength in the BEGINNING

I have never used strength in the beginning to work with a horse. It does not take "a certain amount of strength". Besides, once again I will point out that IN THE VIDEO IN QUESTION, those horses were performing piaffe in rollkur - certainly not "in the beginning".


let those that are standing on the sidelines- keep on standing on the sidelines, postulating classical dressage principles..that they are not really sure about...

This, Sabine, is also bullsh*t. There is no postulating in my posts (except for the aforementioned MENTION of my stretch). I have ridden many horses "classically" and so, I know exactly of which I speak. I have also retrained many heavy, dead, angry horses. I know where from in Europe these rejects came - and for you to insinuate that I am some lesser rider who somehow doesn't know what I am doing is not only demeaning, but laughable. I invite you sometime to come see what I am doing. You too sabryant.

Just please stop ignoring the part of my posts that question whether you saw the video. For THAT VIDEO is what we were discussing - DID YOU SEE THE VIDEO?

lukas1987
Jun. 14, 2006, 07:19 AM
OakesBrae: I missed the link for the video somewhere in all these posts. Can you point me towards the link for it. Thanks.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 07:58 AM
Sure thing...

http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/448/415/

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2006, 08:49 AM
For THAT VIDEO is what we were discussing - DID YOU SEE THE VIDEO?

I did. And it sickened me. That was was the thread was about. The extremes displayed in that site.

What sickens me more is the defense of such extreme methods being that we're too provincial, women are too weak!!!, oh - here's a new one - we don't have high enough an IQ (although based on sabryants understanding of history I think that may apply to her; especially since she's getting her Masters in history), yatta yatta yatta.

I'm amazed at all the dressage riders who are not only experts in this "art", but also have a unique insight into the laws of physics, and veterinary science that no one else - no matter how many degrees they have, have yet to comprehend. Y'all must get nosebleeds from sticking your nose so high in the air.

I don't much care how sabryant rides, or Sabine, or anyone else - because this thread isn't about them -- no matter how hard they try and make it. It's about using extreme force and the infliction of pain and distress - as evidenced by these photos and videos (one example) - that is the subject. I've yet to be shown photos of relaxed horses undergoing rollkur - and I sure has hell am not seeing evidence that the Anky types are using this "for a moment" and as an "exercise".

But I must say that sabryants justification for Rollkur (the suffrage of women in the US in the 20's) to be the oddest thing I have ever read on this BB.

mbm
Jun. 14, 2006, 10:20 AM
sabyrant - please give me examples of why riding youngsters need HARD RIDING and STRENGTH - i just dont get that. and as i mentioned if you can give concrete examples of what you are talking about you might avoid much misunderstanding.

however i TOTALLY agree with J Swan - this thread is not about sabyrant nor me nor anyone else..... it is about the extreme methods used on horses and how what we see does not equal what we are told.

i am happy to read that most of the folks that looked at that web site are sickened and many who didnt know what rollkur is, now do and dont support it.

in other words, horses for life is doing a good job getting the word out :)

(PS - watch the VIDEO!!! -but a warning -- it will make you sick)

Noir
Jun. 14, 2006, 10:44 AM
Do a search for "rollkur" on YouTube.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrX6jhkLpiI&search=rollkur

I believe that's AvG riding, no?

Noir

mp
Jun. 14, 2006, 10:49 AM
I've never been on a horse in my life where everything started out light and airy. As I said before, horses don't think logically. They don't understand that bending and suppling themselves helps them become more agile and balanced.


Wow. What an amazing point of view. And so far off the mark on the nature of horses.

I don't think I've ever come across a more telling statement of why some think rollkur is A-OK. And others think it goes totally and completely against the principles of true horsemanship.

SGray
Jun. 14, 2006, 10:50 AM
re: HFL video - a bay horse with black leg wraps - at about 1:57 you see him react to something.....is that just a plain old spook? seems different somehow - goes on through about 2:40 with big jerk at about 2:29

Horsedances
Jun. 14, 2006, 10:50 AM
Equine specialist in the Netherlands

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :D :D :D :no: :no: :no: :no: :no:

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2006, 10:55 AM
barf

mzpeepers
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:34 AM
I was going to stay completely out of this up until I read that apparently one has to be forceful when dealing with a youngster or the stupid thing, who doesn't know what's good for him, will never learn balance.
THAT is the most outrageous thing I've seen in this thread and believe me, I've seen some outrageous things in this thread up to and including the various changes to the laws of physics.
If the person who came up with this "brilliant" theory is a trainer I'm the queen of england.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:34 AM
re: HFL video - a bay horse with black leg wraps - at about 1:57 you see him react to something.....is that just a plain old spook?

SGray, to my eyes he gets stuck with the spur and reacts with a hop since he's cranked in in front and being spurred from behind.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:35 AM
If the person who came up with this "brilliant" theory is a trainer I'm the queen of england.

*bowing to her majesty*

I'm afraid she is. Very very afraid.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:42 AM
Sgray,

I think what you are seeing is the horse's momentary resistance to his otherwise truckling subservience (or should we call it happiness?)

If you watch the Krack C video, you will see him making similar hops and aberations to the gait. I'll watch that one again because there were times when it didn't even look like a gait. I think there's no other way out in that position.

mp
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:54 AM
If the person who came up with this "brilliant" theory is a trainer I'm the queen of england.

To paraphrase the immortal Leo Durocher ...

Nice to meet ya, queen. ;)

sabryant
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:54 AM
mbm

I'm not going to give you anymore examples because you, obviously, cannot comprehend what I say but rather twist it into something I did not say at all. Besides, this thread is not about me. It is, mostly, about what you and Jswan think in your self-serving ways and, oh, we love horses and you don't, when in fact from sounds of your posts, you are nothing but a pair of Harry Hall breeches and a text book. The fact remains that neither one of you are winning any gold medals. Anky is dispite, the U.S constitution, RK, anti-RK, deep, or creep shows. You know it all! Your spittling, barfing and mis-quotes tell me a lot about the way you debate! It is rather like debating with third graders. Rant on!

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 11:59 AM
Anky is dispite, the U.S constitution, RK, anti-RK, deep, or creep shows.

What?

I think a lot of the barfing is based on the video.

I still haven't heard, sabryant, about whether you or any other rollkur proponent have seen the d*mn video.

Misquotes? Where? I haven't seen a one.

Noir
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:03 PM
There is a lot of video on YouTube.com and one doesn't need to be a member. One does however need to want to go there and have a look. One might not like what one finds...

Noir

SGray
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:13 PM
SGray, to my eyes he gets stuck with the spur and reacts with a hop since he's cranked in in front and being spurred from behind.

it seemed so strange to me - because the reation seemed so violent in relation to the correction - as if the horse were expecting something waaay worse

SGray
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:15 PM
Sgray,

I think what you are seeing is the horse's momentary resistance to his otherwise truckling subservience (or should we call it happiness?)

If you watch the Krack C video, you will see him making similar hops and aberations to the gait. I'll watch that one again because there were times when it didn't even look like a gait. I think there's no other way out in that position.

I so wish the powers that be had left 'truckling subservience' in the rules - it was such a good explanation of what we see

SGray
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:18 PM
There is a lot of video on YouTube.com and one doesn't need to be a member. One does however need to want to go there and have a look. One might not like what one finds...

Noir

there is certainly some 'water skiing' to be seen in 'hyperflexion video 1'

fiona
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:53 PM
There is a lot of video on YouTube.com and one doesn't need to be a member. One does however need to want to go there and have a look. One might not like what one finds...

You're absolutely right - I found a video with the following written across the screen

We don't want to attack someone personally. Neither is it our intention to harm someone nor cause damage to one of the riders we watched closely. We want to document the systematic use of this way of riding.

I didn't like what i found because in my opinion this statement lacks credulity.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 12:56 PM
Did you watch beyond that Fiona??

How much credibility does the video need - are you suggesting that the videos are doctored? :confused:

fiona
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:17 PM
I'm suggesting that i don't believe the above statement to be true. I didn't make any comment on the video.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:18 PM
Ahhhh got it. I want to make sure I understand :) So is what you are saying is that you believe the video producer to have a vendetta against all of the riders pictured? Do I have it right? - Just clarifying :)

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:24 PM
I did. And it sickened me. That was was the thread was about. The extremes displayed in that site.

What sickens me more is the defense of such extreme methods being that we're too provincial, women are too weak!!!, oh - here's a new one - we don't have high enough an IQ (although based on sabryants understanding of history I think that may apply to her; especially since she's getting her Masters in history), yatta yatta yatta.

I'm amazed at all the dressage riders who are not only experts in this "art", but also have a unique insight into the laws of physics, and veterinary science that no one else - no matter how many degrees they have, have yet to comprehend. Y'all must get nosebleeds from sticking your nose so high in the air.

I don't much care how sabryant rides, or Sabine, or anyone else - because this thread isn't about them -- no matter how hard they try and make it. It's about using extreme force and the infliction of pain and distress - as evidenced by these photos and videos (one example) - that is the subject. I've yet to be shown photos of relaxed horses undergoing rollkur - and I sure has hell am not seeing evidence that the Anky types are using this "for a moment" and as an "exercise".

But I must say that sabryants justification for Rollkur (the suffrage of women in the US in the 20's) to be the oddest thing I have ever read on this BB.
But JSwan You took the words out of my fingers!! I am just baffled by these people that say we dont understand, Dont get it, dont ride that level, Are puritans.... Yada Yada Yada! No one will answer the question I have asked numerous times on several of these threads!! Do you really think that is what Dressage is about?? Do you find those images pretty?? are they harmonious with the rider.. Ot is it just that Anky and co. do it so it MUST be the thing to do?? And please not another round of well, they are Winning! Ever think that maybe the Judges are at fault for awarding this, The flambouant movement, albeit incorrect in the ring??
You know the FIRST time I ever saw Bonfire, YEARS ago, I never liked the way that horse moved.. Like an ASB. I never understood why he always won.. OK Go ahead.. let me have it, Why I dont know the first thing about how a Grand Prix Level Dressage horse should move.

Dressage_Rider
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:39 PM
I don't know about anyone else but that doesn't look pretty to me that looks forced and un-natural. Those poor horses cannot be possibly happy in this frame.

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:40 PM
I just went to Youtube, and viewed the first Hyperflexioin Video. It is very plainly Anky. What I want to know, is What is with the Bursts of movement, The horse looks to spurt forward then back to .. I dont know is that a Trot, Passage what?? And the extensions??? Thats an extension.. The horses head is so curled up. How can he possible do a decent extension.. Also what is with the Cantering a few steps behind.. its a shuffled movement, After she goes partway across the diagonal. ITs like confusion on the horses part. Very hurried, and unsure, or trying to comply with what he is being asked in light of the position of his head and neck.
OK So please explain, How does that warm up she is doing translate into the ride in the ring. I am asking a sincere question. What will that warm up result in during the test??

SGray
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:44 PM
Sannois - I had very similar thoughts after viewing the 5th in the series

I thought it looked as if rider would go in the ring soon as coat/hat are being worn - would love to see a tape done of warmup, then competition ride with explanations of how the warmup was designed and how it affected the competition ride

fiona
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:45 PM
i'll make it simple for you, if the statement read

We want to attack personally. It is our intention to harm and cause damage to the riders we watch closely. We want to document the systematic use of this way of riding for the aforementioned purpose.

I would have believed it and thought the statement had credibilty.

edited for clarity and because i can't spell!

TBCheval
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:46 PM
I, too, have asked some questions that have not been answered. It's been very interesting.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:49 PM
fiona, I was just asking you if I was getting what you were getting at.

That's an interesting theory - but there were so many documented, not just the ones being directly filmed.

Noir
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:53 PM
The content of the film is the same. It's not like the writer coerced the riders to ride like that and then used the video against them. That how they ride. If it's nothing to be ashamed of, then how can the video cause harm?

Noir

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:53 PM
will be answered?? ITs a very straight forward question.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:58 PM
Methinks the answer is no, that our questions will not be answered.

Most likely we'll get some vitriol about how we're hateful people that have some sort of "thing" against riders of rk and suffragettes or non-suffragettes and that we'll never win gold medals and we'll sit on our backyard thelwell ponies and just "judge and judge and judge":rolleyes:

Pretty soon though, I suspect this
http://www.twhbea.com/gaitsVideo.htm (click Performance Horse, and Canter) will be what we will be seeing in the competition dressage arena. What, those gaits aren't pure??

fiona
Jun. 14, 2006, 01:59 PM
The content of the film is the same. It's not like the writer coerced the riders to ride like that and then used the video against them. That how they ride. If it's nothing to be ashamed of, then how can the video cause harm?



Then why is the original statement written over the video?

SGray
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:00 PM
I heard that the bunny-hop was to be the new gait added to tests ;-)

SGray
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:02 PM
Then why is the original statement written over the video?

perhaps due to history of lawsuits by some?

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:03 PM
Then why is the original statement written over the video?

Why does it matter? If the rider has nothing to hide, then what does that statement mean to anyone?

Personally, I thought it was a nice gesture on the part of the videographer. He/She was saying - look, these riders are riding this way and you may know who they are but we're not trying to say "bad Anky" or "bad whomever" but we are trying to show you what the warmup looks like done in Rollkur.

That's all.

fiona
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:13 PM
Then just show it and leave the viewer to draw their own conclusions.
I'm would not be the slightest bit surprised if people thought it was a vendetta.

Noir
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:26 PM
...so it might be a good idea to state that it's not personal. The films are of 6 different people riding different horses. They are not even related. They only have in common that they ride in a similar manner. Could it be that it is the RIDING that is focused on here, and not any particular person?

If it were a "personal vendetta", how could an innocent video of a warm-up before a competition be used in such a vendetta? What harm could it do?

Noir

fiona
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:49 PM
I saw the videos on YouTube.com which is where statement is posted. Videos are of the same named rider.

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 02:53 PM
The videos do not all contain the same rider.

fiona
Jun. 14, 2006, 03:04 PM
hyperflexion 1 Anky
Hyperflexion 2 Anky
Hyperflexion 3 Anky
Hyperflexion 4 Still photos and text, quotes from Anky
Hyperflexion 5 Anky
Hyperflexion 7 Still photos and text, quotes from Anky

The videos are all posted by the same person on YouTube.com

Noir
Jun. 14, 2006, 03:09 PM
Those videos are of the same rider. The compiled material is of at least 6 different riders. I imagine the poster will upload those soon, too.

There's one that's not of Anky that is particularly compelling where a rider kicks on with the spur for an extension of the canter, repeatedly, and still holds the horse in the same curled frame. Those kicks (in each step and in an impossible phase of the gait) is what makes the horses jerk and distort the gaits. Even if it's just a moderate leg aid, the horse expects this is what will come.

The videos at HorsesForLife is of other riders.

Noir

OakesBrae
Jun. 14, 2006, 03:13 PM
Ahhh my bad - there were other riders in the arena that were performing the same thing. The videos in horsesforlife are of different riders (also submitted by the same person, I believe)

mbm
Jun. 14, 2006, 04:19 PM
mbm

I'm not going to give you anymore examples because you, obviously, cannot comprehend what I say but rather twist it into something I did not say at all.!

i was asking for clarification and examples so that there wouldnt be misunderstanding. i went back and reread what you posted and asked you about specific words and methods that you were talking about using - specifically having to ride babies with hard riding and strength.

as for the personal insults..... whatever. i am secure enough in my riding and my life that they dont bother me in the least. :) but it doesn't do your position any good.

i am still open to discussing what you are getting at. becuase the image i have is not a good one. and while i havent trained a ton of babies i have done 3. and none of them required hard riding nor strentgh beyond the occasional emergency (baby bolt etc). they did not requite anything but light aids and as balanced a seat as possible on my part.

if i misunderstood i will happily admit it and appologise for my lack of reading comprehension.

Sannois
Jun. 14, 2006, 04:57 PM
I fear you are correct.. still no answers to my question.. :no:
Just comments about the Videos.. I dont care if Immelda Marcos is riding, its what is being done that I question.

pegasus209
Jun. 14, 2006, 05:09 PM
I have been avoiding this topic for awhile, but I really have to chime in and add my impression of disgust.
I once went to dressage show featuring a BNT, I saw RK being used and could not watch anymore-- I just did not get it and couldn't understand why anyone would let their horse be ridden like that. (I'm talking extended warm up rides, not just a 'short moment in time')
About 6 months later, I had the oppurtunity to ride a guy's warmblood for him-- that poor horse was SOOOO heavy and unhappy in the bridle. It took him about 20 minutes to realize I wasn't going to crank his chin into his neck-- then that lovely boy softened, relaxed, and started to swing! His ears were up and he was soo much lighter... I sure hope he got a break after I left!
His owner saw my horse work and was so taken by how light he was, I told him his horse would do it to-- just let go of his face!!

JSwan
Jun. 14, 2006, 05:20 PM
mbm

I'm not going to give you anymore examples because you, obviously, cannot comprehend what I say but rather twist it into something I did not say at all. Besides, this thread is not about me. It is, mostly, about what you and Jswan think in your self-serving ways and, oh, we love horses and you don't, when in fact from sounds of your posts, you are nothing but a pair of Harry Hall breeches and a text book. The fact remains that neither one of you are winning any gold medals. Anky is dispite, the U.S constitution, RK, anti-RK, deep, or creep shows. You know it all! Your spittling, barfing and mis-quotes tell me a lot about the way you debate! It is rather like debating with third graders. Rant on!


Did you come up with the Harry Hall Breeches and textbook soundbite all by yourself or did it take you all day. That's a pretty good zing.

However - I think that you'd better go back to reading your history textbooks - cuz I gotta tell you - you really showed your ass on the suffrage thing. You set yourself up for that one all by yourself - you needed no help from me.

I haven't quoted anybody, by the way. Get your vitriol straight.

(I don't own and Harry Halls or textbooks - and I pray to God in heaven that your knowledge of training eventually surpasses your knowledge of history - cuz my dear - both are pretty freakin' bad)