Get him trained...or sell him? [Archive]

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 08:40 PM

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 08:45 PM

Whoops, I put this in the wrong section, maybe Erin can move it.

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 08:48 PM

Why don't you just delete it? Go into edit and delete it. You've said what you wanted to say, gotten it off your chest and now you KNOW that you are going to get tore up, and rightfully so, as soon as people read this and start posting.

hitchinmygetalong

May. 26, 2006, 09:25 PM

Why don't you admit that you are a mismatch and GIVE the horse away to someone with the experience needed to move him along in his training?

I know it is hard to admit you might have made a bad decision in buying him, but your post is just screaming I MADE A MISTAKE to me.

If people go through your posts about your problems with this horse, they will see it has been nothing but trouble from day one.

It's not his fault.

Give him to someone who will be able to enjoy him and give him a good life. Then you can move on with yours.

hitchinmygetalong

May. 26, 2006, 09:29 PM

You know what? I just read your post again, and I can't believe you are so stupid as to #1 KICK YOUR HORSE IN THE FACE and then #2 post about it on a horse bulletin board.

You have some real problems, kid.

It takes a lot to get me this mad. If you were my daughter I'd take both horses away from you and hand you a shovel for a month.

And don't give me any of that "don't yell at me" crap. You know you did something wrong. Take your medicine like an adult and for crying out loud LEARN SOMETHING FROM IT. Like maybe this horse should not be with you.

Yikes. I can't believe it.

The Fragrant Feline

May. 26, 2006, 09:39 PM

ARGH. This is my first actual post here but I've lurked for a long time and have seen so many of your posts...and the many posts of those trying to get through your thick skull.

Christ, please, just remove yourself from your horses. Sell them, find them a nice home. Yours isn't it. If your horse rubbing on you caused this kind of reaction, I'd hate to see your anger escalate for "greater" infractions.

How would you like it if he found a way to kick you in the face every time you messed up a little? You may very well be down that road..

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:05 PM

I know it's a a problem, do you think I am proud of it?

Yes I was vey stupid to kick him, probably one of the stupidest things I have done. Why did I post it on a BB? I need help figuring out what to do, yes I have medicine, and yes I have been taking it. I have never had the problem as bad with my mare, I am hopping a trip to the trainer will help him mature, but I need to find a way to mature myself.

All I can say is that I am blessed to have horses to forgiving...

mazu

May. 26, 2006, 10:06 PM

No attack from me, just an answer to your question: sell the horse. "Training" to me says that it's the horse's problem and he needs to change. Seems obvious that it's you who needs to change. The best-trained horse will still annoy you and you'll hurt him/her, too.

You're not mature enough for a horse right now, Tex or Sheza. Find them both a better situation, and find yourself some help. I'd suggest cognitive behavioral therapy to help "retrain" your anger reaction. You could still get your horse fix during this by taking lessons and always being under stupervision (I like that typo a lot).

What you did was awful. It wasn't the worst. Find a way to do something different.

ThirdCharm

May. 26, 2006, 10:16 PM

You can't force yourself to grow up and act more mature. The only thing that will do that is time and experience (maybe). Get rid of the horses and find a riding school with decent school horses you can take lessons on and handle under supervisions..... that way maybe you can learn to do things correctly without getting your knickers in a twist or having a minor thing escalate into a life-threatening situation. Right now you're a danger to yourself and your horses. Make your first "mature" decision be the one to GET OUT OF THAT SITUATION.

Jennifer

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:17 PM

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 10:20 PM

You guys don't know how much worse I would be without horses, when I am feeling low I just sit out in the pasture and look at them or groom them, or take a ride on my mare, just something slow an relaxing.

Yes, I have a problem, and that causes me not to think before I act, but most everyone read over the part where as soon as that happen I sat in the tack room crying for 30 mins because I knew what I did was wrong, and I hurt my horse, the only thing that gets me through day to day. My horses are great, they would never hurt me on purpose, they are therapy horses to me.

Your horses don't care if you show remorse and cry after you are unkind and unfair to them. They are not humans; it does not mean anything at all to them.

A lot of the things you do and what you are going through are part of your age but your horses should not have to pay the price. It is important that you learn to control your anger.. please tell your parents that you cannot control your anger and need help, that you need counseling. In the meantime it is my opinion that you should not be allowed to be "training" this horse. Please give it up and let at least him get sold. Then you can try to just work on having a good relationship with your mare.

The Fragrant Feline

May. 26, 2006, 10:22 PM

You guys don't know how much worse I would be without horses, when I am feeling low I just sit out in the pasture and look at them or groom them, or take a ride on my mare, just something slow an relaxing.

Until they piss you off.

Yes, I have a problem, and that causes me not to think before I act, but most everyone read over the part where as soon as that happen I sat in the tack room crying for 30 mins because I knew what I did was wrong, and I hurt my horse, the only thing that gets me through day to day. My horses are great, they would never hurt me on purpose, they are therapy horses to me.

That doesn't mean it won't happen again. Crying for 30 minutes after you did something without thinking...well, so what? Does your horse know that? Your horse doesn't sit there and go, "Gee, she didn't mean to do that. She has problems." He also doesn't think of ways to annoy you. But in that moment where you act, it doesn't matter. Something physically happens, and that's all your horse knows. And in that moment, it's all you know too.

If you can't control yourself, regret won't help you.

If you want to be mature be fair to your horses. Sometimes being grown up means letting go. Your horses don't deserve this. If you need therapy horses, go to a place with therapeutic riding where you can be supervised....

Coup De Des

May. 26, 2006, 10:24 PM

nah sometimes they need a good kick and it sounds like he was being a pig. Although kicking him in the face was the wrong thing to do, you do feel ashamed for it - and thats the main thing here - you aren't a horrible person - a horrible person wouldn't feel bad about kicking their horse.

I think perhaps you need to write a list and present it to your parents. Explain to them that you love Sheza very much - and you're making so much progress with her you'd rather concentrate on her, and i imagine you're getting to an age where school is going to become more hectic and more work, so you'd rather concentrate your efforts on one horse.

Tex is a lovely horse but he's better off with someone who can devote the necesary time to a young horse. With the extra money from Tex (And not having to feed two horses) you can use that money to put towards furthering yours and Sheza's education! Two young horses is a LOT of work! :) It's a brave and mature decision you'd be making, but you must present it to your parents as such. Don't whine ;)

Good luck sweety

Coup De Des

May. 26, 2006, 10:26 PM

Dressage Junkie please don't listen to the other posters.. I can't believe how nasty they are being to you. Don't even credit their posts with explanations.

You've done well with Sheza and will continue to do so. Noone is born knowing everything ;)

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:33 PM

Thanks Coup De Des.

I really don't want to sell Tex, and I think 30 days training will do him good, he is broke, just lack of manners. (I am not saying it's all his fault)

We actually bought Tex for my parents to ride (yes we bought a 3yo for my parents who have not ridden for years) But when we bought him he was well broke and safe, he just wasn't kept up with. During the time Tex is at the trainers, my mom will be getting lessons. I am worried about Sheza though while he is being trained, she is not buddy sour, but will pace when all alone. (another reason we can't sell him and have one horse) She was actually making ruts in the ground from pacing, she walked her weight off.

Sassenach

May. 26, 2006, 10:35 PM

To all the people jumping on her - have you ever been Depressed?

Seriously. Do you know what it's like to be Depressed? How Depressed people act?

They get frustrated easily. They might do or say stupid things they otherwise wouldn't do. They may lash out at people and things they love without meaning to do so.

So If you don't understand what she's going through stay out of the thread and give her a break.

And taking her horses away from her would be the worst thing you could do.

When I was at my lowest with my Depression, I couldn't function without having my horses near me. I did sometimes make sure I did not ride because I would lose control of myself at times - cry or act frustrated - it's one of the tell-tale signs of Depression. But I felt better just being around them.

So when I needed (yes needed) my horses around me I would take them out on a walk and let them eat grass and groom them just to have them with me.

Stop jumping on Dressagejunkie and show her some empathy. She is a kid and one who is dealing with Depression. Don't judge her unless you've been there please.

Thank you

Jess

greysandbays

May. 26, 2006, 10:37 PM

From a purely practical and econmical standpoint, your best bet is to sell. A horse's "training" is always less expensive to purchase if it is already installed.

Training him (and you) will be a long, tedious process, often without much in way of perceivable reward. When it's done (if it gets done halfway decently), you will be able to look back and see the ground you've gained, but until then, it's like crossing Death Valley on foot (and just about as much fun). You and him are already starting from negative territory. There's no point in putting you or him through this grief.

OTOH, sometimes really shitty situations look a little less shitty after a few days airing out. A bad day for him that just happened to coincide with a bad day for you isn't the best time to be making life-changing decisions. No matter how much of a butt he's being, whatever he's doing makes perfect sense to him. You can't change him until you understand him. You can't understand him when you can't control yourself.

I'm going to suggest a possiblity here that may come under the TMI catagory. Have you noticed any corrolation between your "bad days" with your horses and where you are in menstrual cycle? Nature was not kind in the design of the human female reproductive phenomena, and some days are just well, some of THOSE days. And not necessarily just during your period, either. For me, there are a two/three days before hand where I could kill with my bare hands for infractions that I would not even notice on any other day. On those days, everything -- EVERYTHING -- just seems to go wrong. I've gotten it fairly well isolated from living things, but inanimate objects sometimes get a real working over, and considerable cuss words are expended. :eek:

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:41 PM

Nothing related there greysandbays, the bad days just come when ever they feel like it...

frayedknot

May. 26, 2006, 10:42 PM

The Fragrant Feline

May. 26, 2006, 10:43 PM

To all the people jumping on her - have you ever been Depressed?

Seriously. Do you know what it's like to be Depressed? How Depressed people act?

Yes.

They get frustrated easily. They might do or say stupid things they otherwise wouldn't do. They may lash out at people and things they love without meaning to do so.

Agreed.

When I was at my lowest with my Depression, I couldn't function without having my horses near me. I did sometimes make sure I did not ride because I would lose control of myself at times - cry or act frustrated - it's one of the tell-tale signs of Depression. But I felt better just being around them.

From past posts, I have a hard time believing that DJ would just "be around" her horses. That is my concern.

DressageGuy

May. 26, 2006, 10:45 PM

Hey, sassenach, I've had clincal depression since I was 12, about the same time I got into horses, ironically enough. I've NEVER hit, kicked, or otherwise unfairly punished a horse like this kid did. She's obviously too immature to handle a young, untrained horse and should not keep him. I agree with the ones who tell you to just give him away to someone who will train him, and care for him PROPERLY.

greysandbays...having your period is NO excuse for kicking a horse in the face. If you've got that much of an anger management issue when on your cycle, go see a doctor. I don't accept that as an excuse to abuse a horse.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:48 PM

FrayedKnot, your reading and picking out what you want to hear... He was rubbing on me, THEN he put his head down and started to back, I can't cout the number of times he has done that while just having a halter around his neck and he will run off.

On the other hand, I consider rubbing his head on me bad manners, 800lbs is not a rub, it knocks me over, not safe.

Also going back and reading replies, I know I did not make is clear, I did not kick him in the face, It was his chin. Also, kicks can be measured and more then one way, it was more then a tap, but not a abusing kick.

If it sounds like I am trying to change the story I am not, I am just clearing it up. Why is it people read what they want to hear?

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 10:49 PM

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:50 PM

Yes.

Agreed.

From past posts, I have a hard time believing that DJ would just "be around" her horses. That is my concern.

When my horses are les then 30ft from my house I am just "around" my horses often.

fourh mom

May. 26, 2006, 10:51 PM

DJ,

I also say you should sell Tex. You get along well w/Sheza and aren't afraid of her. Your 'therapy' would be so much more rewarding w/out the added stress of knowing you need to work w/Tex and being scared to.

Sell him to a good home and play w/Sheza.

Keeping him for her isn't a good idea either, imo. :) Many horses live alone and No, it's not the best situation, horses are gregarious... they like to be in a herd of other horses. BUT Sheza will adjust and will most likely bond more closely to you because of it.

If you feel she needs a companion get a goat or a cow. Cows are great therapy... simply sitting and watching them gently chew their cud is very relaxing. :) And even listening to their gaseous expulsions is quite entertaining. :D

Sending Tex to lessons isn't the whole answer. If your parents want to ride, sell Tex and purchase a 17yo who is still in good riding shape. They will be happy w/the light workload and won't pose near the problems Tex does. sylvia

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 10:51 PM

If it sounds like I am trying to change the story I am not, I am just clearing it up. Why is it people read what they want to hear?

Because you go back and try to change what you wrote/meant. I told you, why not just delete this..

I figured soon enough you'd be here, defending what you did, when at first it was SO AWFUL THAT YOU SAT AND CRIED ABOUT IT.

So make up your mind. Was it awful, or nothing at all?

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:52 PM

The Fragrant Feline

May. 26, 2006, 10:53 PM

When my horses are les then 30ft from my house I am just "around" my horses often.

No kidding. Yet you still interact with them on bad days.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 10:55 PM

Because you go back and try to change what you wrote/meant. I told you, why not just delete this..

I figured soon enough you'd be here, defending what you did, when at first it was SO AWFUL THAT YOU SAT AND CRIED ABOUT IT.

So make up your mind. Was it awful, or nothing at all?

Why delete this when I am getting good advice from the people who don't jump on me.

It was awful, I kick my horse when he didn't deserve it. It was not so bad that I am a threat to hurting him. He gets hurt worse when he knocks his head on the post my accident.

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 10:56 PM

I just realized, I don't argue with children at home so why should I here?

Good luck, dressagejunkie.

DressageGuy

May. 26, 2006, 10:56 PM

Being "considered depressed" and being diagnos-able with REAL clinical depression are two very, very different things. People don't seem to realize that clinical depression is not just, "Oh, I'm sad, I don't feel like going to school." Clinical depression is, "I can't get out of bed, I feel I have no reason to live" and contemplating suicide on a regular basis. You're not going to win an argument with me on this subject. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, and survived to tell the tale.

Briggsie

May. 26, 2006, 10:57 PM

I seriously don't know what to do with Tex or myself. Lately I have been depressed and just frustrated, and didn't feel like I ever had enough energy to ride.

Today I was working with Tex, saddled him and lounging, he was doing really good, so I was going to work with him under saddle at just the walk. I hopped on him and he wouldn't move, I kiss to him, nothing... squeeze... nothing. Then he starts backing up, nothing serious but I remember last time I got bucked off and I start to freak out so I jump off. Course he wasn't going to buck. I was just so freaked out and yet at the same time frustrated with myself. I don't know how to overcome my fear of being bucked off. I am fine on Sheza, no thoughts about it at all, just on him.

I couldn't force myself to get back on him, but I didn't want to let him get away with not moving so I just walk him around for awhile.

The next problem I had with him tonight was untacking, he wouldn't hold still and I was getting frustrated with him, he kept rubbing into me, putting his head down and backing up. When he put his head down I tapped his nose with my boot and he lifted it back up, then he did it again and again, when I was going to tap him I was frustrated with him and it was more of a kick. :( He pulled his head up so fast and gave me this look :no: I don't know why I did it, but I was so mad at myself for doing it, as soon as I saw his face I just started crying...Somthing has to change. We are sending him to the trainer in a few weeks, but is it me or him? Even after training will I be able to overcome my fear and actually ride him? I also don't know why I am getting so frustrated, and I don't want it to get in the way of my riding or become dangerous...

Please don't jump over me on this thread, I know what I did was stupid, but you don't know how much it hurt me seeing his face.

heres and idea.....try getting yourself into some training. Dont take that the wrong way. Please, I am seriouse. Too often people think their horse is the problem, when really, they just really dont know what they are doing, and the horse can only react accordingly. And I must say, if you get frustrated so easily that you would even use any part of your lower body (i.e Kick your horse), you really need to rethink your actions. You want to send your horse to a trainer? why dont you go take a visit to a horse rescue, see how animals that were abused act (abuse starts somewhere, and it did with you doing that)....takes years to undo sometimes. Abuse is just like anything else.....like the old analogy I am sure you have heard with stealing.....starts with a candy bar.

I have a horse who is headshy, was like that when I got him. Probably because someone who was a horrible rider seasawwed his mouth with their horrible hands ,and whacked him in the face a few times. I know the ladder is probably more like it, because after 7 years of owning him, he FINALLY lets me brush his face. Dont start something you CANNOT undo.

Rubbing is the least of your problems....you need to start with yourself.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 11:00 PM

Briggsie, if your talking about training as in horse lessons, I take them every week.

fourh mom

May. 26, 2006, 11:01 PM

At what point do you expect children to start taking control of themselves and their actions?

I know that in my house, no horses get kicked in the head because someone lost their temper or was "having a bad day". Just - no. Helena is THREE and knows we aren't mean to animals "just because".

I guess I am surprised to think that anyone would think this was ok, just because she was having a bad day, a bad period, or a bad anything.

She says she did NOT kick him in the head... maybe was simply a more forceful kick than she realized in her frustration at him not standing still for untacking. When my horses bend down to eat grass I'll correct them a time or two and then the ground comes up to meet them... in the form of my foot.

I am not abusing my horses. I am not on my period. I am not having a frustration fit. I am simply allowing them to make a decision which turns out to not be in their best interest. :) DJ was over-reacting to Tex's stimulii. :D She was sorry for it and is regretful. Causing her more regret doesn't fix the situation. Explaining what would have been the proper response would go alot futher.

She may or may not listen. She may or may not sell her horse/s. We can't make a decision for her but, as adults can't we do some subtle 'kid training' by showing her the proper way to have behaved and guiding her toward it?

I can't remember any other posts by her about Tex... I do remember something about a Sheza but it's not very clear. :) If she's had nothing but trouble from him and doesn't have the ability to help him develop she does need to sell him, I agree... or give him away - whatever. We can't make her sell him but badgering someone tends to have the opposite effect than we intend. sylvia

Briggsie

May. 26, 2006, 11:03 PM

If it sounds like I am trying to change the story I am not, I am just clearing it up. Why is it people read what they want to hear?

Read and hear.....somehow those two don't agree.

Filters between brains and keyboards.......not something that can be bought, you just need to find it somewhere up there. Try using it before you incriminate yourself.........

frayedknot

May. 26, 2006, 11:05 PM

Nope, I am pretty sure i read it the way you wrote it.And you said you kicked him in the nose, not the chin.Still doesn't justify a kick in the head/chin/face. If he pulls back with a halter around his neck,put it back on properly and start working on making him stand. But whatever...justify away.

CurlyLindsay

May. 26, 2006, 11:05 PM

Well I for one am very proud of you for being honest with yourself, really questioning the match, and exploring your feelings towards the horses and why. We all wish you had the resources to to work with perfect school horses and perfect instructors, but you and I know that's not how life goes for some of us. ;)

To see how far you've come with so little- not only with those horses, but in your personal growth, honesty, and maturity really tells me you are getting somewhere- slowly, and with much more risk than any of us would like to see, but somewhere. You should be proud of how far you've come, look at your accomplishments and just think how far you can go if you keep trying, seeking, learning.

Can you bump up the date for Tex to go into training? How about sending him off to the trainer, letting the trainer put a 30 or 60 day refresher on him. Then you ride Tex at the trainer's place for a couple weeks. Either you'll both be in a better place to work with one another OR you won't, but his training will have bumped up his sale price. :)

BTW, did you really *kick*, or just mean business? If either of my horses did that to me, and kept doing it over and over, I'd absolutely bump a little more forcefully until they decided to stop going back for more!

Briggsie

May. 26, 2006, 11:05 PM

Briggsie, if your talking about training as in horse lessons, I take them every week.

there is a lot more to horses than riding them. That is only half the battle......knowing what they are thinking, and thinking one step ahead...figuring them out, knowing when you are THE PROBLEM...and noticing a pattern, and making a POSITIVE effort to change it.....that is 90% of the battle.........not just walk trot canter.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 26, 2006, 11:11 PM

Crooked Horse

May. 26, 2006, 11:13 PM

Putting his head down and rubbing you? That's bad manners? That is a copout.Quit trying to justify kicking him.I am quite sure there are other things you could have done other than give him a kick in the head.

Coup De Des....nah, sometimes they need a good kick,sounds like he was being a pig? WTH.Sweet jesus, you people need your heads checked.

I absolutely cannot stand a rude horse that rubs on me. My horses are spoiled to the stars, but if they rub on me with their faces they will meet an elbow real quick. And then they will do some backing up. A horse that rubs is indeed being a pig.

To the OP. I'm not going to judge or take sides. Life sucks sometimes and growing up seems like it's a long way away, but you will get there someday. Good luck to you.

DressageGuy

May. 26, 2006, 11:20 PM

There's a big difference between reprimanding a horse that doesn't respect your space, and kicking one in the face...

Coup De Des

May. 26, 2006, 11:27 PM

no see if my horse put his head down to rub on my leg or push on me, i absolutely would give him a kick in the nose to move him off me. Absolutely. his head is already down there, it's no different than a slap on the nose. Obviously i don't mean Boot your horse so hard you bruise it or make it sore or anything cruel like that. i just mean a hard tap... with your foot. And a loud growl. Just like when my horse was being a brat once when i was feeding him - he was crowding me - so i gave him a boot in the guts- just like a dominant horse would do, and he's never crowded me at dinner time since.

Horses don't mind not being the Boss - but they do need to know who is.

Crooked horse, what you said is exactly what i meant ;)

Shahrazade

May. 26, 2006, 11:46 PM

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, I don't know anyone who wouldn't be lying if they said they'd never been angry at their horse- but there are plenty of people who would be truthful in saying they kept their wits while at the barn, then went home and got angry later, or did constructive things instead of allowing the anger to control them. I don't think DJ deserves to be told she shouldn't own a horse or ride a horse- she didn't knock his teeth out, did she?

Where I live, it's a struggle just to find a farrier who won't kick your horse in the belly when he takes his foot away. I went through three before I found an appropriate shoer for my gelding. Not every little girl has the luxury of growing up in an area full of positive influences who are gentle with their horses. When I was DJ's age, I was working for a trainer who, while her show record was pretty darn great, frequently brought horses back with bloody spur marks on their sides. I witnessed her throw a brush at a horse's head after he was pushy with her. And, mind you, when she wasn't flipping her lid, she did love her horses, believe it or not. I wouldn't sell a horse to this trainer for the world, but she's a far cry from the gentleman (and I use that term VERY ironically) who shot his mule in the knees with deer shot just to see what would happen. Or the fellow who beat his horse so badly that white hairs grew on each side of his spine for the rest of his life, and he lost sight in one eye.

Despite growing up around these people, I turned out okay- thanks to a smart mare who taught me a lesson early on. I slapped her in the face- not hard, but she didn't deserve it- and she took a nice chunk out of my thumb. She had never nipped before, and has not nipped since. I didn't need stitches, but I bled just enough to be scared as hell, and I never lost my temper with a horse again. I thanked that mare for her one bite many times over the years.

Okay, now for the other side of my opinion:

DJ, hun, I'm not a mother, but if I were and you were my daughter, you would get your riding privileges taken away and replaced with a clicker and a book about clicker training. You would not get on Tex or ANY horse again until you demonstrated control of your impulses and the ability to work through problems through positive reinforcement. In addition, you would be (if you're not already) the one getting up every morning to feed the horses, the one mucking their stalls every afternoon, and the one feeding them again at night- not to mention filling water and spritzing fly spray in the correct season.

Everyone needs to learn that riding is a privilege, whether you're 10 years old or 100. It's a privilege horses give us. They weigh far more than we do, and if they weren't such giving creatures, we would sure as heck not get away with getting on their backs and expecting them to do as they are told, no questions asked.

If you really feel bad about kicking Tex, why don't you set a penalty for yourself? Spend the time while he's at the trainer reading lots of books about positive reinforcement, doing gentle groundwork with your other horse, and not riding until you are certain you've absorbed everything you've learned and will not lose your temper again. You can cry all you want, but in the end, the only thing that can make sure it won't happen again is a change in your behavior.

Bad manners need correcting, but if the correction is severe enough that you cry about it later, something is wrong.

You're young, and every youngster has mood swings and temper tantrums. That's okay, but that doesn't belong around horses. Every time you approach a horse, take some deep breaths and remind yourself that you will be cool, collected, mature, and responsible no matter what, until you are home and away from the horses and can throw all the fits you want without hurting an animal.

BornToRide

May. 27, 2006, 12:12 AM

I have not read all the posts in detail, but has anyone even considered that this horse mat have some physical issues, such as EPSM for example, especially being a QH (he is, isn't he?)?

Horses with EPSM symptoms tend to become balky, are fidgety, have focus issues and can be obnoxious , among other things. Other physical issues are also a possibility, such as ulcers for example.

When dealing with problems in horses, first you need to rule out any possible physical issue that might cause your horse's behavior. If everything is absolutely fine then are looking at a training issue. Then you have to ask yourself whether or not you can deal with that training issue and/or need professional help.

If this horse rubs on you he does it because you have not given him clear instructions not to do so. Then you overreact. Any time my horse even shows me the slightest disrespect of MY space, I make him move away from me and submit in a way he understands: like horses would do with each other in a herd. It's all about using correct body language. I have taught my horse that I rub him, he does not rub on me. He understands the difference very well and appreciates the rubbing I give him when I take his bridle off. He knows that i will stop immediately if he becomes pushy in any way. He has learned to hold his head still and let me do it instead :)

Having said this I think you really need to take a long hard look at what your options are. Are you willing/able to deal with such issues and overcome them, or is/are there perhaps another horse(s) out there that would be a better fit for you? It really all comes down to that.

SpazabianLitRB

May. 27, 2006, 12:14 AM

My horse has gotten a boot in her side many times. Mostly from the farrier, when she pulls her foot away or starts being nasty. She's gotten it from my trainer twice, while walking and crowding. She never crowded her again. It is never a hard kick, but enough to alert her that she's done wrong and needs to behave and pay attention. I grew up learning the NH way of life. You are the boss, but you let your horse know fairly like the alpha horse would. No anger is used. You don't go at your horse with the intent to get them, they are simply in the way. They learn quickly that it isn't a good idea to push you around.

Lit got my foot in his chest the other day. Why? He kept walking on top of me from behind. After getting the rope and my arms waved at him, the only thing left to do was to kick behind me. All it took was my foot to lightly graze him, and he backed off. How do I justify it? Easy. If he did it to the alpha horse, the horse would have swished the tail, pinned ears, and kicked out. I did the same thing. If I just kicked behind me w/o warning, it would have been unfair to him, and I promise you he would have let me know by either biting or spinning and kicking. He didn't do either-instead, he backed off which means that it wasn't perceived as aggression but leadership and authority.

That being said, you should never just kick, hit, etc. a horse with any anger or without any warning. That only causes the horse to be resentful. If the horse gets warnings, and chances to get out of the way as he would with the alpha horse, then if he gets the result he just says "oh, I guess I should have moved when I had my chance".

DJ, did you get the PM I sent you about respecting space? I think you need to work on that before you really attempt grooming and riding this horse. Ground skills are most definitely in need of improvement with him, especially if you already have some fear while riding him. I've been in that position, being afraid to ride because of what might happen again, but able to do anything on another horse. I've also been on horses that people would ride but either avoid what set the horse off or bail out when the horse got agitated and acted up. It was NOT fun to fix. If I were you, I'd stop everything but respecting space until after the trainer has worked with him and you. If you feel you cannot handle him without getting angry, maybe you shouldn't. Just feed and water him, without anything else that is more demanding from him or you.

greysandbays

May. 27, 2006, 12:35 AM

greysandbays...having your period is NO excuse for kicking a horse in the face. If you've got that much of an anger management issue when on your cycle, go see a doctor. I don't accept that as an excuse to abuse a horse.
THAT, Mr Know It All, was not the point. THE POINT WAS that once I recognized the corrolation (which was probably 20 years ago), it was a lightbulb moment. Instead of something uncontrolable dropping out of the blue, it became something that could be managed.

The second point I might make would be that I don't give a crap what you "accept" or not. You don't know a damn thing about me, my horses, our situation, how I handled it, or anything else. And for all I know, you could be a serial ax murderer and hardly in any position to chastize anybody.

Nature was unkind to the female in certain respects. She also favored the male with total oblivion to many things. I read blather like yours and realize maybe us females didn't really get the worse end of the deal after all.

DressageGuy

May. 27, 2006, 01:03 AM

More self-pity, wah is you, same old crap. If you can't control your moods or your temper, you don't belong around horses, period.

Sassenach

May. 27, 2006, 01:40 AM

More self-pity, wah is you, same old crap. If you can't control your moods or your temper, you don't belong around horses, period.

Ok DG YOU get Depression and see how you feel. It is a real illness with real symptoms many of which DressageJunkie is showing. Unless you know what she is going through or have dealt with it yourself you are in no place to judge.

That attitude is what hurts people with Mental Illnesses the whole "you can snap out of it and pull yourself up by your bootstraps" crap.

I'm doing my best not to get too emotional and let my feelings run lose (maybe I don't belong around horses) but this is a subject near to my heart, I've been effected by Depression and other Mental Illnesses both personally and through friends and family.

So don't talk unless you actually know what you are talking about.

Amchara

May. 27, 2006, 01:49 AM

If you find you self getting angry, stop what your doing. Maybe just lead him in a figure 8, stop, back up, make him listen to you. Take him back and start over again. It's not convential, and probably not to progressive, but it seems like it would work well in this situation.

In between now and when he goes to the trainers, maybe just do ground work with him in a halter, and thats it. Work on him walking forward with you, backing up, going sidways and all sorts of lateral work. Something I try to do with my horse when she is bad is raise my voice saying "NO!" fiercly, and do the weird discipline pointed finger that old walt disney character make when their kids do something bad (not the middle finger :lol:). Thats for on the ground.

Maybe sell Tex after he gets some training, start advertising now. You can get Sheza a small pony or something for true therapy work and continue ground work with it (lots of fun).

Some good books I bet you'd love (because I do and used them heavily when I was in a tight spot with a horse)

Teach your horse perfect ground manners
and
Bombproof Your Horse

I think just ground work is very good idea until he goes to a pro.

Coup De Des

May. 27, 2006, 02:38 AM

TB or not TB?

May. 27, 2006, 03:41 AM

Ok DG YOU get Depression and see how you feel. It is a real illness with real symptoms many of which DressageJunkie is showing. Unless you know what she is going through or have dealt with it yourself you are in no place to judge.

That attitude is what hurts people with Mental Illnesses the whole "you can snap out of it and pull yourself up by your bootstraps" crap.
I don't question the fact that she has depression issues, or that it's a real and severe illness, or that you can't just snap out of it. I, like MANY other posters here, are quite familiar with the subject on a personal level. I've been on anti-depressants for 7 years, and I shudder to think of the thousands and thousands of dollars spent on therapy and managing my condition. A very close friend of mine has been on meds since she was 6 years old, and has suffered more in this world than most people do in a hundred lifetimes, including physical and sexual abuse, suicide of a parent, suicidal attempts, severe depression, continual night terrors, and a slew of mental health troubles. She was basically tortured for the first 15 years of her life. Nowadays, her time consists of therapy 5 days a week, a 10 hour/week job, and immersion in horses. So let me be clear when I say that I have hands on experience with depression, and am aware of the theraputic nature of horses.

Let me also mention that I was diagnosed as having "anger management troubles." Mostly during my teenage years, and mostly with my family. At the time I was blessed to have a horse, and I felt like he was the only thing keeping me alive some days. So I know what these issues mean and the terrible abyss of despair and hopelessness that goes with them, as well as a short temper, mood swings, and since I'm female, PMS. And I know that my issues, while serious and more than anyone should ever have to go through, PALE in comparison to the hell that my friend has experienced every day for over two decades.

So, with that said, let me make another thing clear: neither of us ever, EVER acted out against or harmed an animal. Let me repeat this so I know it's heard: despite emotional turmoil and deep-seeded rage and teenage hormones, we have never mistreated our horses, dogs, or any other pets we had contact with. Did we get frustrated? Of course. Were there times I felt like I wanted to send my horse to the glue factory? Yep. But, like I mentioned to DJ in a post a while ago, I learned at age 6 that IT IS NOT OKAY TO TAKE OUT ANGER ON ANIMALS, even if they are the ones directly responsible for your anger. IF they step out of line, and that's a big "if" because often when we're frustrated we tend to magnify the slightest discrepancies into heinous crimes, they can be appropriately and promptly corrected if the handler is able to address the issue without any emotional involvement.

Even mature adults have trouble doing this, especially when they're having a bad day and the odds seem stacked against them. This is one of the reasons we hire trainers, incidentally, because of their ability to view each situation objectively and without "making it personal." And you know, even the pros lose their tempers sometimes. So, back to the case of DJ. Do you know how hard it is for a young adult with depression and anger issues to keep their cool and stay neutral? I do. It's very, very hard. And so yes, I get where DJ is coming from. And my conclusion? Tough shit. If you've lost it and acted out against your horses more than once, then you are being abusive, and you must remove yourself from the situation. Even on the days that I was super angry at my horse, if I really felt I was losing my temper, I'd hop off and put him away. Better to end on a frustrated note than a cruel one. Life isn't fair, and some times the cards we're dealt make it damn hard. Working with horses can drive a normal person crazy, and it takes an extreme degree of control if you have your own problems on top of that. I'm not going to fault you for not having that control, because some of it will come with maturity, and sometimes things happen before we realize what we did, and like I said, it's very hard. There's no shame in accepting your current limits, and you can always try again later. Were I you, I'd sell both the horses because I couldn't live with myself knowing that I might hurt or confuse them. However, it seems Sheeza is a remarkably tolerant creature, and if you worked at it specifically you might be able to really make emotional progress by keeping her.

Tex, on the other hand, must GO. And especially because he's a BABY, and he's green, and he's still testing out the world and guaging limits and making mistakes and acting his age by being a dork. Why would you want to test your patience and emotional control with him, when every moment is a new challenge and a new chance to be frustrated. You said you cried for a half an hour after you kicked him. Do you know what he's probably feeling? Utter confusion and fear. He was just going along, doing what he's been doing, being kind of a twit because he's just 3 for heaven's sake, and then BOOM, he's physically punished. Horses have about the mentality of a 6 y/o child. How do you think a kindergartener would feel if you yanked them off the jungle gym and gave them a spanking, and then angrily dragged them and shoved them in the car with no explanation? The child, at least, has a voice and can ask what he did wrong. Your horse has no such benefit.

You need to ask yourself if the shit you're putting them through - and we're talking unfair, physical punishments, plus what ever trauma is going into their brains from this treatment (and horses remember a LONG time) - is justified by your need for their theraputic presence. You've proven many times over that you can't control your anger and you take it out on them. Sell Tex so that he can have a shot at becoming a good citizen. Get a goat for Sheeza if you can't sell her. You have the opportunity to do what is mature and right, or you can let your stubborness and pride and anger get in the way of the wellbeing of your animals.

JanWeber

May. 27, 2006, 05:42 AM

Sounds like you are genuinely asking for guidance, but I think you know the right thing to do. Sell (or give away) Tex to a good home. Work with Sheza if you can, but one is more mangeable than two and less costly for your family. Do it now - your behavior is in part a response to a situation you are just not equipped to handle.

Rivermeer

May. 27, 2006, 06:19 AM

Please post Tex on the giveaway forums and let him find a good home. You do not have the education with horses to properly handle him and teach him.

Your first post sounds like you are an abusive husband trying to make nice and feeling bad about it after the fact. You have made bad decisions over and over with this young horse. As Dr. Phil would say "You need to own your behaviour and actions". No excuses.

Do the right thing!

Riva

May. 27, 2006, 06:44 AM

I have been quiet up until now, reading these posts and shaking my head, but I have to say this - I know what depression is, I've been suicidal, had/have anger control management issues, etc... NEVER have I ever even been TEMPTED!! to kick my horse in the face. For no reason should a horse be kicked in the face. It doesn't matter if you apologize, cry, whatever after - the horse doesn't know the difference.

I would recommend you sell or give away both horses and follow the above recommendations of finding somewhere to ride that has supervision and getting some psychiatric help. quickly. 30 days of training is simply not enough. Find them a good home. If looking at the horses makes you feel better, find some horse fields near you and go look at those horses. Do the right thing by your horses.

cinder88

May. 27, 2006, 07:15 AM

""I don't think DJ deserves to be told she shouldn't own a horse or ride a horse- she didn't knock his teeth out, did she?""

Not this time, anyway. Maybe next time. Or the time after that....Why don't we just wait until something really bad happens to the horse and then get all up in arms?

I have clinical depression...had it all through high school but was never diagnosed until I was an adult. I still suffer from it, occassionally. If that is the criteria for giving DJ some tough words, then I am more than qualified.

If anyone needs a bop in the nose, it is this kids parents for allowing her to be unsupervised around the horses and for allowing her to come on here and use this forum for her own personal pity party.

'Cause that is what this is. It is where she comes for strokes and attention.

And we all give it to her. Not always positive attention, but to kids, that doesn't really matter....as long as they are front and centre.

Advice?

Take your meds. Admit that you have an illness....If you had diabetes, would you hide that from people or not want to face it? Depression is an illness like any other. It doesn't make you less of a person or weak....But, it sure as heck is a GREAT excuse for bad behaviour. And, I don't need any flames for that, because I've been there, done that and grew up.

Depression is an illness...it's not an excuse.

Just for once, do what is best for your HORSE. Not what is best for YOU.

Cinder

The Fragrant Feline

May. 27, 2006, 07:21 AM

Ok DG YOU get Depression and see how you feel. It is a real illness with real symptoms many of which DressageJunkie is showing. Unless you know what she is going through or have dealt with it yourself you are in no place to judge.

*snip*

So don't talk unless you actually know what you are talking about.

Um. As DG said earlier...

Hey, sassenach, I've had clincal depression since I was 12, about the same time I got into horses, ironically enough. I've NEVER hit, kicked, or otherwise unfairly punished a horse like this kid did. She's obviously too immature to handle a young, untrained horse and should not keep him. I agree with the ones who tell you to just give him away to someone who will train him, and care for him PROPERLY.

jcotton

May. 27, 2006, 08:52 AM

Teach your horses to respect your space, doesn't matter if they are 10 hands or 18 hands.
Why was the halter around his neck? Not very safe. Horses are opportunistic creatures, some more so than others. Given an inch, they take a mile, some make mountains out of molehills.

If you have the diagnosis of clinical depression and are on medication, are you seeing your psychiatrist on a weekly basis? Sounds like you to be talking to someone about your emotions that going all over the scale of top to bottom.

~Freedom~

May. 27, 2006, 08:52 AM

agreed amchara, sassenach and greysandbays. 100%.

Dressage Guy... how amusing you are

I think Dressage Junkie (whos name i have no idea ;) ) is about 14 or 15? That's a tough age emotionally. It's when i was first diagnosed with depression. It's a tough age to be at.

DJ is 14 and posts on this board.

http://cloudwalker.proboards58.com/index.cgi

She has had some good advice on that board but posting problems of this sort on a forum that is this large where many of the replies will be less than kind is not my idea of good reasoning.

DJ

You have had both good advise and some comments which are carried over on the forum where you know where they are experts on nastiness. The best thing you can do is have a trainer solve your problems or possibility contact someone privately that you respect to give you advise. That way you won't leave yourself open to attacks both here and on that "other forum".

EqTrainer

May. 27, 2006, 09:39 AM

TB or not TB? has got it straight. I have been depressed, too. Never did I take it out on my animals. Under no circumstances is this acceptable. When you lash out at an animal in anger, it is wrong. The same correction (preferably not being kicked in the head but a more appropriate action) if given fairly and without emotion would be respected by the horse. This type of behaviour is abuse.

I think the idea of the giveaway forum is great.

pinkngreen

May. 27, 2006, 12:04 PM

Do you know what it's like to be Depressed? How Depressed people act? Yes, I have been seriously depressed and I never took my frustrations out on an animal. I survived depression for years, as a teen and adult, with out hurting another living creature. I got help finally when I was in my late 20's. Depression should not be used as an excuse for treating a horse badly. If she can't handle being around her horses she shouldn't have them.

Horse ownership is a privilige not a right. You need to prove you deserve that privilige.

Dressagejunkie's name is totally misleading.

ETA: Never hit your horse in the face for any reason. If he is rubbing then smack him on the neck or barrel. It won't take them long to correlate the smack elsewhere on his body with the fact he is rubbing his face on you.

Also edited for my creative spelling, oops!

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 12:42 PM

Thanks for all the replies, the good and the bad.

Shahrazade, I do all the work for my horses, they are not boarded, so I feed at 7am and at 7pm, I clean the paddock, groom the horses, fly spray, fly masks, everything.

Lit, I am not sure if I got that PM I will check my inox and read over it.

DressageGuy, I think before you give advice like that to others you should learn to controll yourself, not around horses, but around people. ;)

Coup De Des, yes I am 14 and just FYI if you want to know, my name is Lindsey. :)

Rivermeer and everyone else who has told me to sell him or give him away, we are not going to yet. Yes I have gave him a kick in the nose which I shouldn't have done, but just because of one incident dosen't mean he needs to be sold. After training and I still have problems with him we will look into selling him. Not only do I love this horse, so does my mom, and she will be the main rider soon.

Pinkngreen, I am trying to figure out how my name is misleading... there is not much to it.

vbmenu_register("postmenu_1633906", true);

DocHF

May. 27, 2006, 12:53 PM

Dressage Junkie, at the risk of giving you more attention than you really need, you are 14, and deserve some guidance. If you are having impulse and anger control problems around your horse and you are depressed, you might want to try working with an equine assisted psychotherapist or equine assisted personal development specialist. These are people, sometimes a team of two, who can come and work with you and your horse (or another horse) to explain how your body language reflects how you feel, how your horse can assist you in being aware of your own frustration and also knowing what to do with it before you hurt another living creature. kicking your horse makes him mistrustful and you don't feel good about it either.

One person like that, that I would trust is Chris Irwin. Google his name and you will find his website. He may be able to recommend someone in your area. Investing in 6 or 8 sessions of that might cost as much as a used saddle, but you would feel more in control and grown up. It would be far more productive than posting on this bulletin board where many people are not kind to you. This is a truly useless fight for you. When you post here and get upset at the responses, you are more likely to get angry and lose it with your horse again.

Please, though, for your own sake, you're attracting a lot of negative attention to yourself, take a break from this BB for awhile and go talk to your folks about it.

Linda513

May. 27, 2006, 01:26 PM

I didn't realize until half way through the thread that the OP is 14. I, for one, am very proud of you Lindsey for posting your message and asking for help. That's the first step toward a resolution to this problem.

I know that you love your horse, but sometimes the best thing we can do for someone we love is to let them go. And think of how much less stress you will have after he is sold. You have another horse that you enjoy, that is wonderful.

I realize that you have depression issues which are very serious. Its hard enough to be 14 and hormonal without depression. Do your parents know how you feel? Are they supportive?

Medication is not a magic bullet either. Therapy can be very helpful.

You know you did something wrong, and I think you know in your heart what you need to do. Its going to be very hard to make that decision, but if you have supportive people in your life it will be easier.

I hope everyone here on this forum will support you and guide you, without criticism. Please please listen to what everyone is saying. You and Tex both deserve to be happy.

lelevic

May. 27, 2006, 01:29 PM

More self-pity, wah is you, same old crap. If you can't control your moods or your temper, you don't belong around horses, period.

I agree with you DressageGuy! If you cannot control your temper, it is time to step away before you do something you will later regret! There is a "trainer" at a local barn in my area that had/has a temper problem. One time at a local open show, a gelding she was riding in the schooling area was acting up a little (but there were practically half a million people there and some pretty scary things going on!) anyway, she gets pi**ed off, gets off of him and starts kicking him in the stomach like 4 or 5 times. Yes, sometimes I get frustrated at how dumb my gelding acts sometimes but I take a moment, breathe, and continue with what I am trying to accomplish. Letting the anger take control is never a good thing.

By the way DressageGuy, I love the pics of Chase! He looks like a sweetheart and his jumping pic is awesome!!

2WBs1TB

May. 27, 2006, 01:45 PM

Rivermeer and everyone else who has told me to sell him or give him away, we are not going to yet. Yes I have gave him a kick in the nose which I shouldn't have done, but just because of one incident dosen't mean he needs to be sold. ....

But this isn't just one incident. You've posted about other issues that you've had with both horses. This isn't about being depressed or on the rag (bogus excuse greysandbays) or any other EXCUSE. This is about a 14 year old who does not have the knowledge, experience or temperament to be working with youngsters. These "problems" are not because of her horses; they are because of her inability to know how to work with young horses. She is not qualified to be training a young horse. Period. She simply isn't good enough. Not being mean, just stating the obvious as I see it.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 02:08 PM

2WBs1TB I am not training young horses, I am sending him to a trainers to be finished.

DressageGuy

May. 27, 2006, 02:22 PM

Just to clarify on my prior comment of self-pity,etc. It was directed at greysandbays for trying to make excuses for this girl. PMS is NOT an excuse take out on your horse, under ANY circumstance. I can't believe you'd suggest that.

2WBs1TB

May. 27, 2006, 02:49 PM

2WBs1TB I am not training young horses, I am sending him to a trainers to be finished.

And this is exactly why you shouldn't have a young horse. EVERYTHING you do when interacting with a young horse IS training. The fact that you don't recognize this is the root of why you are having so many problems.

Your young horse won't be "finished" when he comes back. It takes YEARS of consistent work, not days/weeks/months to finish a horse. He will still be young, still be learning, and at an age where his training can just as easily be UNdone by a rider who doesn't know how to deal with a youngster. It won't be ingrained as it would a more mature, seasoned horse. A classic example would be your post on Sheza, who USED to longe fine, then started rearing after you started working with her.

You really should sell both your youngsters and get yourself an older, already trained horse on which YOU can learn to ride and regain your confidence. You are not at a level where YOU are consistent in your riding and your ability to work with a youngster. You demonstrated that clearly when you lost it and kicked him IN THE FACE (The chin is part of the face--anatomy 101). You are doing neither of your horses any favors by keeping them.

horseandhound

May. 27, 2006, 04:00 PM

WOW...some of you need to retract your claws and remember that this is a child you are beating up on this thread. Obviously several of you are armchair experts and from what I can read it ends there. Many of the negative replies to this little girl have come over as very aggressive...do you display that same aggression arround your horses?? You have systematically pulled her and her posting apart. For those of you that have been nasty to this child and have children of your own , God help them and for those that don't have children, Thank God you don't. You have probably damaged this child more with your responses than you will ever know and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

creseida

May. 27, 2006, 04:03 PM

2WBs1TB I am not training young horses... And this is where you are wrong, for the very reasons outlined by 2WBS.

Youngsters learn by consistent reinforcement of what they are taught. By your own admission, you are scared of Tex. You let Sheza walk all over you. You are teaching them every time you work with them that you are not someone they need to take seriously. And you are consistently reinforcing undesireable behaviour because you cannot deal with your own issues; fear and lack of experience/knowledge to deal with the typical situations that come up when dealing with youngsters.

These horses aren't being bad. They are acting like youngsters and testing their limits. They think they know more than they do. And they need to be put in their place.

No different than any typical 14 year old human, who thinks they know more than they do.

creseida

May. 27, 2006, 04:06 PM

You have probably damaged this child more with your responses than you will ever know and you should be ashamed of yourselves. And what about the damage she is inflicting upon these horses? What about the physical damage she has already inflicted upon herself? This horse has already hurt her. Not because he was being bad, but because she refuses to acknowledge that she does not have the talent, training, ability or knowledge to be working with young horses.

I think most of us are telling her to get horses more suitable for her ability, to spare these horses from more of her "training" and to spare herself from further injury.

imissvixen

May. 27, 2006, 04:21 PM

Sweetie, I am almost 50 and know myself well enough to know that I don't have the patience to work with a young horse. I think some people have it and some people don't. It's not a bad thing, it's just the way it is. I am fortunate enough to have the money to pay for a trainer when I have had problems and know when to walk away when I am getting frustrated.

One thing I do know about dealing with young animals whether two or four legged -- you have to set the limits or boundaries and hold to them. So, until your horse is far enough along to understand completely, don't let him rub on you at all and then things won't escalate to the point where you do something you regret. And as long as you have Tex around keep your sessions short so that you are both fresh and relaxed and not tense. Have a success and then stop. Then go back the next day and have another success. If that success is that you get on him and sit at the mounting block for five minutes practicing some deep breathing/relaxation stuff and then get off, that's great. Lunge him if he needs some exercise or long line him. Mix it up and don't overdo the lessons.

Also, lower your expectations about how quickly he is going to change. Don't measure it in days. You aren't perfect, the horse isn't perfect. Try to find a way to enjoy the journey.

I have a new puppy right now -- a Jack Russell -- who was getting into the bad habit of jumping up and biting the hem of my shorts -- incredible. At first I was nice about it and let him get away with it and then all of a sudden he escalated, I got annoyed, and I realized I had allowed him to let do this by giving in a few times. Today I carried a little spray bottle of water and every time he did it I squirted him and no more biting. And I won't ever give him an inkling of thinking that it's cute to do that.

evenstar

May. 27, 2006, 04:43 PM

Your topic was "Get him trained...or sell him"

But you are telling us that you actually are not going to sell him no matter what. And you really should, simply because he is young and green and you are inexperienced. At your age, you need a horse that has "been there, done that."
Someone has already said this, but it is so true - every interaction with your horse is "training". You simply cannot lose your temper with a greenie. The repercussions can last for decades.
And to say, gee, I cried for 30 minutes - that really does sound just like the abuser in a husband/wife relationship who promises he/she is sorry and it will never happen again.
You need to change the situation, to insure it will not happen again. Sell the horse.
30 days of training with someone else is nothing in the experience of a green horse. Put him back in his old environment, and you'll have the same issues. Horses have long memories.
Please sell this horse.

horseandhound

May. 27, 2006, 04:47 PM

And what about the damage she is inflicting upon these horses? What about the physical damage she has already inflicted upon herself? This horse has already hurt her. Not because he was being bad, but because she refuses to acknowledge that she does not have the talent, training, ability or knowledge to be working with young horses.

I think most of us are telling her to get horses more suitable for her ability, to spare these horses from more of her "training" and to spare herself from further injury.

As may very well be the case but some of the replies here have been scathing. You don't know this girl, you can only respond to what you read, but it doesn't give any one the right to get self righteous and pious. Give her some credit for being brave and honest enough to post her mistakes.

Shahrazade

May. 27, 2006, 05:13 PM

As I said in my earlier post, not every little girl is lucky enough to grow up with positive influences who never get angry with their horses. I was lucky enough to have positive influences in addition to the bad ones, as well as a fine mare who took no guff when it came to treating her well. She expected to be treated as the princess she is, and would reward me with a fabulous ride when I did so. Bringing issues to the barn meant she would be unresponsive and dull until I got my act together- unless she could tell I was really upset, in which case she comforted me. But anger had no place with her, and she made sure I knew that.

DJ, it's good you do all the work for your horses already. Keep that up, but try not riding for a while. Maybe you will be more appreciative of the privilege of riding if you don't have the chance to ride every time you feel like it. I am a much better rider since buying an OTTB that required six months off before I could get on him. Ground time does wonders for your mindset.

Everyone, whether they are five years old or eighty-five years old, needs to recognize that horses make us equal: No matter who you are, your horse deserves the same respect and kindess from you. Whatever your issues are, you need to be competent for your horse. This is why they are such great therapy for a variety of problems. Cancer? Your horse still needs to be fed. Autism? You still have to find a way to communicate with the horse. Horses are kind, forgiving, gentle, and loving- but they deserve your best, every day, and if you can't give them that, that's a day to take off from riding.

DressageGuy

May. 27, 2006, 05:16 PM

Being "brave and honest" doesn't make it right. She's obviously an immature, impulsive person, and should NOT have a green horse right now. Sure, I give her credit for being brave enough to post this here, but what kind of reaction did she think she'd get? That we'd all pat her on the back and tell her it's ok? Forget that crap, she kicked a young, green horse in the face for rubbing his head on her. There are MUCH better ways to reprimand a horse for rubbing on you. Personally, and this is just MHO, I don't think she should have ANY horses right now. Take some lessons with a good trainer, and have supervision around horses so this doesn't happen again. If you truly think you have depression, get to a doctor, get on some meds, and get some therapy.

Thomas_1

May. 27, 2006, 05:16 PM

Without any hesitation - sell him or better still give him away to someone who will want him

goeslikestink

May. 27, 2006, 05:18 PM

i havent bothered to read all the pos of for or against - i know i have read what to op has done in past and bits and bobs with her horses

tex is a baby and most or nearly most have told you to get a trainer to train properly in one post you say you have and another you say you going to - but you also say you know how to trian a horse for those that havent read her post i surgest you go backwards first before making an opnion

dj -- i told you that you will see you can blame the horse for doing what hes doing like i said how you act is how they re- act and i have said before if handled badly and you dont know what you doing or how to ask properly then how does the horse understand you with mis mashed signals that are half given and incorrect the horse isnt being nasty hes lack of proper training and learning good manners -- hes a baby a young horse green as a pee and so to are you after all you only had so many lessons it doesnt work poor horse a word of adivce sell him now so someone can correct all that you done and save him form turning into somthing that isnt nice-- he needs a home where to beigin with he can be turned out and forget for a while about being broken in but someone that can handle him from the ground back up to being a good horse and begin his career and show off his real potential
sell him. and sell him resonable price as theres a lot of issues with him that you taught him -- remeber good or bad its how we teach them they learn from us the human hand -- so be good to him and sell to an expreince person and do it now -- asap.

keep the other horse and then with money you have from him go get a trainer that will teach all the correct aids and positions and ground work poles and grids and leanr to jump with proper care and attention and rent out texs stable to help with cost of learning so then you can go every week instead of hit and miss lessons with trainer

you know a person never blames its tools and a horse will only behave how you treat it-- you i think have done this before its not a one of thing as tex wouldnt behave how he does with you -- have you ever thought that hes like that becuase he has learn to be ina defensive mode and not really listening as you lose your temper -- bit like you on here you have in the past only listen to those things you want to hear that are good and that sing out your phrases but those you disagrreed with then you get angry tex being a horse and horses sense things is just a mirror to you and your actions horses dont cry but i bet soemtimes hes so lost in his world as like i said he doesnt understand what you asking off him

what iam trying to say is that its not good being angry the whole doesnt owe you but if you want things out of life and to be part of things in life then you really must learn to control your anger and temper at the end of the day your destiny is in your own hands and you in time will have to make a living to keep yourself you will never be able to do that unless you learn to control yourself and respect those that try there hardest to help put you on the right track i have never ever kicked a horse in the face becuase it rubbed me

i cant belive some of the answers on here for that one i have horses that do it sometimes but the answer isnt to kick it or hurt it
the answer is to trian it properly so it doesnt do in the first place
for exsample dont feed tip bits so it doesnt have to look or knock you over trying to find them -- if a horse is hot and starts to rub then answer to that is when it comes home from a hack turn it out to roll or wash down to cool off - me i let them roll to have a good iche-- there are just a couple of things that are dommonsense to do there is more but you can only know more by learning with a good teacher -- a trianer-- i say aagin sell him and then get a trainer to help you with the other one then you wont get so frustarated when things arnt going right as half of your problem is frustration --
once you done that then will see how you will change and think why didint you do that -- and then you can enjoy instead of being angry

horseandhound

May. 27, 2006, 05:28 PM

Very nicely put GoesLikeStink.

hitchinmygetalong

May. 27, 2006, 05:53 PM

Horseandhound, I understand your feelings regarding how many of us have reacted to DJ's original post. But I have to tell you, this is not the first time she has come here with one of her "Don't yell at me but..." posts. I told her quite a while back that she was going to get hurt if she didn't get help but she adamantly insisted that she was "going to train Tex myself." And guess what? She got hurt.

She has proven that she only "hears what she wants to hear" and I guarantee you she will ignore every well-meaning person who says, "Sell Tex." She will insist he will be going to a trainer and mark my words, within a week or two she will be back with another post on how frustrated she is with him when he does a typical young horse stunt and she reacts badly.

Beasmom

May. 27, 2006, 06:22 PM

I'd vote for selling Tex -- or giving him to a good home. If DJ's mother is going to be the eventual rider of this horse, why is she not working with him? Or at the very least, supervising her daughter? (OK, I'm fairly new to these boards and haven't read ALL of DJ's posts, so I don't know the whole history.)

I can tell you from my own experiences as a child (when dinosaurs still roamed the earth) and from watching well-meaning first-time/novice horse owners with young horses, that a teenager and a three-year-old horse is, 99% of the time, a disaster waiting to happen. And that's without adding the clinical depression to top it off!

I sympathize with DJ in one way -- I too suffer from depression. Probably had it all my life, undiagnosed. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It happens. But I agree with the other posters who say "Sell Tex". Get an older horse who can teach YOU, not the other way around. You don't need the aggravation and challenges of a young horse. And from the sound of it, no matter how determined and well-meaning you are, you cannot handle the task. Yet. There may come a time, with experience and maturity, that young-horse training will be achievable. But NOW doesn't sound like the time, DJ.

I also have to ask, where has your riding teacher been throughout all this? Surely he/she can see what's happening?

Even if the trainer you send Tex to can straighten him out, that's only half the battle. Then YOU need to learn how to properly enforce ground manners, define boundaries, and be CONSISTENT with your horse. This isn't easy for adults, let alone adolescents! You will need the trainer to teach YOU, too.

My first horse was an elderly mare who tolerated all my "phases" with grace and saintly patience. My parents were wise enough to buy this rather ungainly creature, rather than the fiery "Arabian Stallion" I desired. (Yes, I read all the Walter Farley books!) I loved Molly dearly and owe her a debt of gratitude for teaching me those early lessons of patience and kindness. Let the old horses teach the young riders...

Good luck to you DressageJunkie, and don't feel bad about finding Tex a new, happy home. You'll both be better off for it.

Auventera Two

May. 27, 2006, 06:28 PM

I've read most of DJ's posts, and this kid has some SCARY history with these horses. :dead: I think you should sell the gelding. You will be much happier without him! You should focus on your mare, get some good riding lessons with a professional trainer, and grow in your horse knowledge at a steady pace. Neither you nor Tex deserve these bad experiences that you seem to have one after the next.

SpazabianLitRB

May. 27, 2006, 06:44 PM

DJ, I sent it about 1-2 weeks ago I believe. I can resend it if you need it, just let me know.

Flipper K.

May. 27, 2006, 06:47 PM

DJ,

I've taken an interest in you before and replied to your posts. I always bear in mind that you are young and inexperienced and seem to WANT to do the right thing by your 2 horses.

However, you have a hard time taking criticism no matter how constructive and I know you have ignored some very good advice from people that have tried to gently steer you in a good direction (not just me).

I stopped answering your "cry for help" threads for this reason.

I want to answer this one because you asked a very pointed question as your subject line. My answer is: Sell Tex.

I think you have a hard enough time "training" Sheza. You obviously don't have the resources for both horses. If you sell Tex, you AND Sheza could get some much - needed basic training.

There is nothing to be ashamed of in considering that it might be too much for you to have both horses. I think you have shown you are wise beyond your years for considering it.

As for depression, I am first-hand familiar with it. (insert barfing icon here). I understand the uplifting power of being around horses. Just remember, even if you sold them both, you could get a job working at a farm. You'd have the $ saved by not paying horse bills to take several lessons and practices rides a week. You could gain the knowledge, experience and confidence it takes to bring your own horse to his / her full potential.

I'm just throwing some options (and opinions) out there. I don't know if you even read what people write to you, particularly if you are hoping to hear something else, and I keep that in mind as I wish you good luck, and tell you to keep us posted - we do care.

-Flip

StefffiC

May. 27, 2006, 06:58 PM

DJ,

Sell the horse. Please.

Thank you whoever posted the link to the other forum. Her posts over there are even scarrier.

I have struggled with depression. Been there, done that. Carry the scars every day. I never harmed an animal.

I have 3 rescues that were harmed by peoples attitudes. My mother's horse was beaten in the head with a metal rake. Why? He looked at his leasor wrong. She beat the living daylights out of him. He totally did not deserve that. He's worth his weight in gold as a horse now.

DJ, I've been nice and tried to help you. But, you're a hopeless case. I'm out of here and you're on my iggy list that way my blood pressure won't go up because of you.

Grow up and learn. You suffer from secondary ignorance. You're too ignorant to know you're ignorant. Secondary ignorance hurts horses and gets people hurt.

Good luck on your life and I hope your animals find good loving homes.

DressageGuy

May. 27, 2006, 07:04 PM

Well said SteffiC, if somewhat blunt ;).

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 08:25 PM

For everyone who thinks I ignore everything I read on here they are wrong.

Tonight I had a good ride on Sheza, and remembering this thread helped, she has been allowed to move when mounted, from the old owners and myself, I didn't correct her, and tonight I was getting frustrated, but I stopped took a deep breath and told her again whoah. She then stood still and listened.

My parents took Tex on a walk tonight, up the driveway and around the property, it was great to see them take an intrest in him, he was well behaved too, then he had some grass. I took some pictures if anyone wants to see them.

After 10 mins at the walk I went on a little "trail" ride around the property, then cantered around, it felt so great just to go fast.

I know I asked if I should sell him but he is such a character, and we will try 30 days and see how he does, my parents and me understand he has to been riden almost every day too keep up with the training, and we should have a round pen by then so it will be a safe and easy place to work with him.

MistyBlue

May. 27, 2006, 08:36 PM

Please consider riding only when your parents are present, it's safest that way in case something should happen. And always remember to wear your helmet.
Also, please consider moving the gelding into actual training and not using your lessons as his training. Lessons teach the rider how to ride, they don't teach the horse how to act or react, nor do they train the actual horse. A trainer works with the horse, not the rider. A combination of the gelding getting his training while you go to your lessons and learn more (preferrably on a well broke, behaved horse. It's easiest the rider to relax and learn if the horse is already behaving) will go a very long way into making both of you much more relaxed and more safe and make riding momre enjoyable for both of you.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 08:44 PM

Misty, I only ride when my parents are around and always have a helmet on my head.

When I mean training for him I mean send him to the trainer while still having lessons.

goeslikestink

May. 27, 2006, 08:46 PM

one day my debs was riding little rasberry and took her to a jump she didnt jump it i was mucking out and and just keeping an eye to her ridng around the field on her pony you know in case she fell off she was 8yrs old anyways becuase she didnt jump debs jumped off yanked her in the gob and proceed to strike her with the whip around her head and neck -- i did no more than go over to her and take the whip out of her hands and striked her on the back off her legs -- debs learn a very quick lesson from me harsh true but then she was harsh for striking the horse becuase it didnt do what she wanted-- why becuase she hadnt asked it properly and nor ad she approached said jump in the correct line to jump - the angle in which she asked was impossiable--

debs is now a very sort after talented rider she learn in that one lesson from me and a mistake by her that its a no no shes never had to hit a horse since
only once and that was with ollie when she first got him as her back was turned and he used to be aggresive she was filling up his water butt and bent down back towards him i walked into the barn and saw him rear up and about to come down on her i shouted becuase thats all i could do as i was 4ft away from him but in my warning she look up in that instance and bob him on on the nose that horse has respected her since and they are a great team had i not shouted she would havebeen dead--

i have given you two exsamples of debs -- when she was 8yrs old as then she knew how to ride so her abilities are the same as yours at 14 also her temprement -- i want-- i can-- not listen-- i know what iam doing --
attitude--ver simular attitude but difference is i saw it so stoped it dead didnt ever want her to be unappreiated of said pony or what she has nor abuse it for her own ends beaucse it didnt do what she asked.

ollie was when shes 20yrs in that instance it was her or the horse that i would have left same thing i saw it so stopped it from happeneing.

sometimes events such as ollies in the stable can be dangerous but yours wasnt her was she didnt see him rear up she was bent over cleaning and scrubing is huge water butt .

in your case i dont think you on meds i told you before i disbeive you and in lots of things to like a trianer beucase you contridict yourself so many times
but i do belive thats its more frustration and anger built in becuase things arnt going the way you want them the more i think about the more it makes sense and beacuse you havent got anyone around you to teach you like my debs had in me its getting worse and you getting more and more frustrated as you just cannot make the horse understand you-- give it up girl just have the one horse the one that does understand you abit more sell tex and spend heaps on getting her right stick with her then all your anger and frustrated efforts and built in emotions will go and in will come harmony and fun with the mare but do have lesson every week then you will see how much you will learn when you go here there and do this and that
once you in a working life and have leanrnt correct manor then if you so wish get a young horse to be brought on

and i will say lastly a word of warning this is a bb and the written words are public you have made them public some now might see what you did was abuse --i rest my case -- good luck in your life and i pray your horses are happy

MistyBlue

May. 27, 2006, 08:48 PM

Good, keep wearing that helmet and hopefully Tex will head off to the trainers soon. Please have your parents explain his current issues so the trainer knows which actions to target, and have your parents explain your amount of riding experience also. That way the trainer will know exactly what's needed. Will Tex be seeing the trainer soon? It might be safest for you if you stuck to ground work only with him before he goes into training. Staying safe is most important...you also have another horse that depends on you to care for her.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 08:55 PM

goeslikestink, I don't know why you don't believe that I am taking meds, I wouldn't lie about it, not somthing I am proud of, but you can believe what you want.

Misty, I am hoping by then end of this month we will get a date arranged.

pinkngreen

May. 27, 2006, 08:59 PM

Pinkngreen, I am trying to figure out how my name is misleading... there is not much to it.When one sees your name you expect some one that is big into dressage. I'm talking some one that has their act together, shows, takes dressage lessons or gives them, and actually can ride dressage. You on the other hand don't seem to be doing any dressage therefore the name is misleading. The name Dressagejunkie is more appropriate for a real DQ!

alysheba

May. 27, 2006, 09:01 PM

You are afraid of this horse. Why are you struggling with this?

Would u keep a car you felt unsafe driving? Or if u were scared to ride a motorcycle would you get on anyway? No.

Its because he is a live animal you have feelings for that you are struggling.

Being unable to cut ties from dangerous, or fearful situations because of "feelings" is a BAD habit to get into. It can move to human relationships (if it hasn't already) which is how women end up abused.

Sell him.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 09:05 PM

Okay, so first your saying just because some rides dressage they have their act together and go to shows? I am taking a guess that you are a Dressage rider...

Now if it was DressageQueen it wou;d be different, but it's junkie. I love dressage, it is beautiful, somthing I might start with my mare some day but right now we are having fun jumping, I am not into all the fancy people that ride Dressage, not saying they all are. I might even start Tex in some low level dressage, but he is getting broke as a western horse as thats what my parents want to ride. Don't want to see my dad in britches ;)

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 09:07 PM

DressageGuy

May. 27, 2006, 09:14 PM

That's not what she said. She said, by not recognizing when you're in an inappropriate relationship, it can lead to bad things (ie being abusED in a relationship). You really need to step back and try to look at this objectively, I know it's hard, and see if you're TRULY the right person to be training this young guy right now. You say you're medicated, so I'll ask, what are you on? I have quite a vast experience with psych meds, so do tell.

creseida

May. 27, 2006, 09:22 PM

DJ, Perhaps a different analogy will help you understand what we are trying to tell you. I hope this isn't beyond your level of understanding, and I'm not saying that to be mean.

Horseback riding is a form of communication. You are communicating your wishes to your horse through a special language, called "cues". When you are riding a trained horse, you cue your horse to do something, and the horse responds with the action you request. You are speaking a common language.

With a green horse, they don't know the language, so it is the trainer's job to teach the language. This isn't very easy when neither of you speak the other's native tongue.

Teaching the language of riding is no different than teaching any other foreign language. Before you can effectively teach a language, be it Spanish, Russian or "Cues", you have to learn it, know it and understand it yourself. It isn't just a matter of repeating words, it is also a matter of understanding how the words go together (grammar) and being able to explain this to the student (or horse). Just because you can count to 20 in Spanish and ask "Where is the bathroom?" does not mean you are fluent in Spanish.

The same applies to horses. Just because you can get on a trained horse and get a basic walk, trot and canter out of them, does not mean you are fluent in "cues". Based on your posts, your knowledge of horseback riding is the equivalent of someone who has taken less than two semesters of high school Spanish. You can understand and speak some basic sentences, but you are still learning the grammar and syntax, but still make plenty of errors when communicating with someone who already knows the language. But, except for a few cute phrases, you could not effectively teach someone else to fluently speak the language.

This is what you are experiencing with Tex and Sheza. You don't fully know or understand the language of "cues", yet you are trying to teach another being, who does not share a common language with you, how to communicate in ths common language. You may think you are asking for one thing, but your language isn't clear, and the horse is interpreting it as something else. You are not communicating effectively with each other. This is how battles start.

What I'm saying is this: before you can teach a horse how to be ridden, you need to learn how to become a better horse person first, and you still need a tutor (a trained horse). Until you fully understand the language of cues and why we cue the way we cue and when, you should stick to the horses who already have some idea of what you are trying to say. All you are doing with Tex and Sheza is confusing the hell out of them.

pinkngreen

May. 27, 2006, 09:29 PM

No, I'm an eventer!

You need to read up on some dressage principles and try to follow the example of some of the masters. A real dressagejunkie would be trying to absorb all the info they can and try to incorporate it into their daily work with horses. I think one big one you need to work on is patience. You just don't sound like some one who is really intrested in dressage for what it really is. You may not really have the big picture of what it is about, it's not just about fancy movements, it's about training, after all that's what the word means.French, preparation, training, dressage, from dresser, to set up, arrange, train, from Old French drecier, to set up, arrange

When I was young I started off on a very unsuitable horse. But my parents got me lessons on a school horse weekly so I could have a chance to work on myself. Also the trainer used my horse for her experienced students who were horseless, that way he got some training as well. We actually used it as a trade off instead of paying her for all of my lessons. I rode my horse as well in some lessons and during the week, I just wasn't his sole rider since I really wasn't able to train him. I know it is frustrating to start your riding career on green horses, I don't reccomend it if you can avoid it. I hope you really are taking weekly lessons, but it needs to be on both horses not just one.

If your parents are always around when you are riding what do they say or do when you have a bad moment and do something rash to your horse? I'd think having them there might help keep you in check, I know it would help me.

~DressageJunkie~

May. 27, 2006, 09:36 PM

One reason I am not able to take lessons that often is that horses are at home and we have to trailer to thte barn and back, so this weekend I was not able to have a lesson as we are having a party tomarrow for Memorial day.

Yes Dressage is beautiful and amazing, the connection between them and the ability.

My parents are around, but not right there at the fence, they are usually working on somthing outside.

Flipper K.

May. 27, 2006, 09:43 PM

DJ,

Please read Creseida's post. Then read it agian.

Then. when you wake up tomorrow morning, read it again.

Please print for quick reference.

-Flip

SpazabianLitRB

May. 27, 2006, 10:30 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Your immediate goal needs to be safety with this horse and getting respect on the ground. Forget about riding him. If you currently feel safe on Sheza, then by all means ride and play with her as much as you are comfortable doing. But even if you have a feeling of fear or doubt just thinking about going to get Tex, then don't do it. Leave him in the pasture for the day, or let your parents take him out.

I'm going to tell you a story, it's long, but I think you will get something out of it. My trainer got my quarter pony Little Girl in April 2000, when she was 5. I started riding her in about June once a week for lessons, and I also got extended time with her after my lesson to keep riding her. My trainer let me ride around on her under her supervision while she talked to my father. By August, I had progressed from walking her with a few trot steps on a leadline to being able to have her back up for more than 5 steps (BIG improvement) and canter around the ring. I started leasing her, did clinics and a few shows on her over the next year. Around February of 2002 we started having some issues. She got confused from a cue that I didn't execute properly, and bucked. I fell off, got back on, and continued working. A few weeks later, it happened again-I was in the wrong position when I asked for a canter, so she bucked. Well, when I tensed up, she threw another buck and I went off. Over the next 6 months, I got more afraid of riding her because she was having a bad time and was getting confused easily (not just with me, either-everyone had problems on her). By September, I was getting bucked off every other week. It got to the point where I would ride her in the arena and not want to go out of a walk because I was so afraid. My trainer started having me do gradually less work with her because it wasn't helping either of us. We were not confident with each other, and we didn't have much in the way of trust at all by this point. That November, the day after Thanksgiving, was the last time I was going to be riding her for a long time. My trainer was going to pony us out on the trails (we were even having confidence issues out there by now), and from that day on I'd just be doing groundwork for a while. That whole morning, I had that feeling that something was going to happen, but I ignored it. While I was grooming her in the barn, she cowkicked me in the leg, then spun and kicked out again-this time getting one foot in my ribs (fracturing 3) and the other leaving a rather large whole in the wall. The cowkick was because I didn't give her a chance to respond to a light cue before going stronger, and the second kick was because she was afraid I would beat her as punishment and she wanted to protect herself. After that day, I didn't handle her again at all for about 2 years. I was afraid to even be around her, because I didn't want to be hurt again. When I was able to ride again, I was given an Appy/Draft cross to ride. He had been used as a lesson horse and was without a leasor, so I took him as a project. Turns out I was his project. I was able to regain some of the confidence I lost. By the time he was finally put to sleep this past December, he had gone totally blind. He taught me many things, but the most important lesson was the role of trust in a relationship. Near the end of 2004, my trainer felt I was ready to work with Little Girl again. We did it right this time-we spent months working on the ground before I even thought about riding her. I'll never forget our first ride after that. By establishing the needed respect on the ground first, we started building a great relationship. I was confident enough with her that I was able to relax, which allowed me to read her much better. The fact that I could feel every muscle in her body prepare for what she was going to do was extraordinary to me, because I was never relaxed enough to be able to feel her before. The first ride only consisted of my trainer playing with her on a lunge while I was on her back, but it was what was needed for that first ride again. It was a few weeks before I was comfortable enough to trot her, and I didn't canter her until November (only because she did it, and I just realized nothing would happen and went with it). Now? That pony is my everything pony. We both needed the two years to grow up and learn before we were ready for each other again. I have all the confidence I had when I started riding, and now even more. For me, the only way I could completely gain back my confidence was to conquer battles with her-she helped me restore what she had taken away so many years ago. The pony that I was afraid to ride even with a bit and a saddle is now the one I pony horses off of on the trails, teach from, and have no problem jumping on bareback and bridleless to go for a run in the arena.

I know this was long, but I hope you got something from it. I don't want to see you go through what I went through. I think that both you and your horse need some time to grow up (and I don't mean it in a bad way) and learn. He needs to mature into a horse and be trained by someone who is confident enough to handle it. You need to learn from an experienced horse as much as possible. What those horses teach you will be invaluable for when you are ready to work with Tex again. I learn a lesson from every horse I work with. If I can't use it immediately, it always comes in handy down the trail. Let Tex have his time to learn while you absorb everything you can from older horses who have lessons for you. The partnership can work between you and Tex, but you both need to spend time apart learning elsewhere first. If you do, I believe that down the road you two will be able to go far. But I'd hate to see you go through what I had to. Both Little Girl and I got very hurt by that accident years ago, but we were able to recover. Don't make yourself learn from an accident.

jhopeful

May. 27, 2006, 11:37 PM

It is important to pay attention to fear. Fear is often a warning that if you continue doing what you are doing, you could get hurt. I don't think that your fear of working with Tex is unfounded. You have gotten hurt a few times, and you find him difficult to work around because he has some bad habits and you don't always know the correct way to react to make him quit.

He really is a baby, and he is confused. I know you love him, but loving a horse does not make him the right horse for you. There is a horse out there who you can really enjoy. You would be able to spend time watching them in the pasture, or go hang out and groom, or just hop on at any time and have a pleasent ride. Tex is not that horse right now. It will take years of solid foundation with an experienced rider. Maybe Sheza could be that horse, if you are careful with her and get adequate help when you have problems. Or maybe there is an entirely different horse out there that you need to find.

I think I remember you saying that you had some a pony club or 4-H group near you. If you absolutely are not going to find Tex a more appropriate home, can you try to find a very experienced older teen that would like to get some extra horse time and ride him for you frequently? The trainer where you take lessons might have an idea of someone who could do this for you. The 30 days training will be a great start for Tex, but he really, really needs a year or two of riding by an experienced, consistant rider who can really reinforce what he has learned.

Also, please don't take the above as a critique of your riding. I am sure that you are a skilled rider at your level, but the thing about horses is that you could learn forever and there would still be things that needed to be improved. Different tasks require different skills, and working with young, green horses is a skill that people do not usually acquire with a few years of lessons, even if they are proficient at WTC and jumping courses. Understanding how to work with green horses is generally a result of riding green horses under the supervision of someone who can help you determine how to react if you aren't sure. It usually takes years of experience on lots of different horses. When you are riding a green horse, the rider is responsible for bridging the communication gap between the rider and the horse, and if you cannot reliably figure out the way to do this, you should not ride the green horse without supervision. Unfortunately, you just can't lose your temper when things get frusterating. They will get frusterating, but "firm, fair, and consistant" is the only thing that the horse will understand.

As an aside, I have been riding for 10 years and have ridden plenty of green horses, and if I had a horse that respected me as little as Tex does you, I would immediately stop working with him on anything that I could not succeed at until I could get some help. You need 100% success with Tex, for his own good. Horses with no respect for people do not live happy lives. Don't start anything with him that you don't know you can finish. Don't pick any fights with him, because at this point he will probably win, and he can't do that. Don't put him in any situation where he is going to be able to get away with something he shouldn't do, because he learns by reputation and you will be training him that he can ignore what humans ask him to do. As tempting as it is to try something new when he seems to be behaving, stick to your resolve and don't do anything with him that you aren't 110% sure of. If you must ride him, consider taking him to your lesson instead of Sheza whenever you feel you are ready for a next step and only try the new stuff under the trainer's supervision for the next year or two. Trust your trainer's judgement, ask her for homework, and work only on that homework until he/she says you are ready for the next step. You might be able to muddle through a problem at the end of a math textbook without learning the middle chapters, but you will certainly be sorry that you skipped them when you get to next year's math class. You can't skip steps with Tex either, or you will really be sorry.

DressageGuy

May. 28, 2006, 12:09 AM

The simple fact is, that she is NOT a skilled rider. She posted not too long ago about having 2 green horses and only having had four lessons. She has no business being around green horses, let alone riding them. Hell, I rode for 6 years before getting on a greenie, and that was only under close trainer supervision, which she obviously doesn't think she needs.

Coup De Des

May. 28, 2006, 01:42 AM

Look Dressage Guy. That was your situation and this is hers.

She is working with what she has. It doesn't really sound like her parents are horsey and so she is just doing the best she can. Lindsey has come a long way and will continue to do so.

The fact that she continues to post here to further her knowledge is testament to her wanting to learn. If it was me and you were all so awful i would have left a long time ago.

hitchinmygetalong

May. 28, 2006, 05:43 AM

Coup de Des, golly you are absolutely right and we are absolutely wrong. We should only respond with gentleness and kindness when someone posts that they kicked their horse in the head but felt bad about it. We should only pat someone on the shoulder and say, "There there, it's not your fault" when they ride a green horse into a bunch of cows and then freak out when he spooks. Why, what on EARTH were we thinking by giving what we thought was good, sound advice (i.e. get a trainer, send horse to a trainer, don't ride him yet...).

I have gone through the green horse routine. And you know what? I made a hell of a lot of mistakes. That doesn't mean I should sit by and watch while someone else makes those same mistakes. We are TRYING to help DJ, despite what you read. The only reason the tone of the posts has turned "nasty" is because she seems to only want to hear the sympathetic "not your fault I'm okay, you're okay" feedback.

Well, I for one have learned something here. And that is some people say they want help. They say they want to learn. But they don't, not really. What they want is ATTENTION. And guess what? It worked. DJ has gotten lots of attention.

So, I am bowing out of this one. From now on I will be a passive observer of this trainwreck. And the next one. And the next one.

Linda513

May. 28, 2006, 07:21 AM

DJ, I notice that you are replying to the criticism posts, not the support posts. Why is that? Are you reading what people are saying? There are a few people here that are responding to you in a supportive manner and even though you may not like their advice can you at least acknowledge them and let them know that you are reading their posts and thinking about what they are saying?

Auventera Two

May. 28, 2006, 07:48 AM

After 10 mins at the walk I went on a little "trail" ride around the property, then cantered around, it felt so great just to go fast.

I know I asked if I should sell him but he is such a character, and we will try 30 days and see how he does, my parents and me understand he has to been riden almost every day too keep up with the training, and we should have a round pen by then so it will be a safe and easy place to work with him.

A round pen would be a great idea!! I used to just do the longeing thing, but after working horses in a round pen - wow, there's just no comparison! It is much safer and (for me anyway) has yielded much better results than longeing does. Longeing seems to introduce a lot more confusion with the weight of the line, and you carrying a whip and all that. With the round pen its just you and the horse and NOTHING to confuse the communication between you two. :)

As far as cantering out on the trail - I would seriously not even consider that at that point. I've seen photos of you riding and your base of support is very weak. You look unconfident and unstable. It would be very easy for you to get seriously hurt if your horse bucked or spooked, etc. I would stick to easy trail rides around the barn at the walk and trot until you can take some more lessons and get more secure. Accidents can happen so fast, and they can be devestating. I know because I've had one. It can ruin you mentally and physically in about a nanosecond.

Pharma Chick

May. 28, 2006, 07:52 AM

Hey DJ, we all make mistakes and hopefully learn from them - I agree with Dressage Guy that you should not have these green horses and you should NEVER lose your temper. Well, life doesn't always go exactly as planned. Your parents should have gotten you an older, more experienced horse - too late now. You said that you have only had a few lessons. My suggestion would be to take weekly lessons on a school horse. I too have had horses that were beyond my ability. I also have a temper, but thankfully never took it out on my horses. I was then blessed with a wonderful 18 yr old schoolmaster six years ago that taught me to become the rider I am today. I got this horse for FREE from a woman that wanted him to retire from eventing. This horse will be with me until the day he dies. You need a horse like this to teach you to become an effective, quiet rider. I now have that young, green OTTB that I have always wanted - and I have the skills to bring her along, thanks to my old guy.

Honestly, older well-trained horses are worth their weight in gold. You will learn so much from an experienced horse and it will be enjoyable. Consider the lessons, and then apply what you have learned to your horses. Good Luck!!

Amchara

May. 28, 2006, 09:26 AM

For four or five months maybe I took to lessons a week.

On Mondays I rode a wonderful schoolie who packed around and taught me a lot. Whats to say about a wonderful schoolie that hasn't been said before?

On Fridays I rode the green 25yo (older then the schoolie!) that my grandparents had to offer me as a riding horse. He was scarey to ride, but when I fell off of him (somtimes 3x a week) I just bounced right back on.

I learned a heck of a lot in those few months. Everyone around me is amazed that I have been jumping for so little (not even two years) and can do so much.

Maybe you do a combination of like that, like I did? I worked off lessons so it was easy for me. Maybe every other week switch off or some weeks have two lessons, any combination that you feel suits you.

jester1113

May. 28, 2006, 10:02 AM

DJ -- one of life's hardest lessons is learning SELF CONTROL.

Knowing when to stop arguing, when to stop playing around before that joke goes too far, when to stop drinking, when to stop eating, stop talking. The list goes on. When to say "you know, I shouldn't be around my horse today because my bad attitude is NOT his fault." (and I've said this to myself many times -- gave him a pat, a treat, turned him back out and went home).

Knowing when to stop, take a deep breath and walk away.

And it's something that everyone struggles with all the time, even adults.

I'm of the sell him camp. Sell him and learn from your mare. There will be (unfortunately, they're a dime a dozen) many other green three year old OTTB's that you can work with in the future.

Let someone else give him the good start he deserves.

ThirdCharm

May. 28, 2006, 11:01 AM

First of all, if you knew ANYTHING about dressage, at ALL, you would realize that you should be working on it with Sheza if you want to learn to jump correctly, and that doing dressage and Western are not remotely exclusive, and in fact highly complementary.

Dressage is not all pretty prancy ponies with their manes done up and tophatted riders. Do you read or do you just look at the fruitbatting pictures?

Jennifer

~DressageJunkie~

May. 28, 2006, 11:10 AM

Your the type of person who gives a bad name to Dressage, you see it as the one and only way to ride.

Yes I am wanting to start some low level dressage with my mare, she needs to learn more balance, but my training is skipping over that and thats why I am moving to another barn soon.

You can take a western horse and with some training you can bring him into low level dressage, you should see his trot and canter, more english then western type. As for the rider, for low level riding the basics are close. I am not talking big shows, I am talking about fun shows.

ThirdCharm, I know what is put into those horses, I read, look at pictures and watch videos.

ddashaq

May. 28, 2006, 12:15 PM

I agree with the posters saying sell the horse. I have read most of your threads and it sounds like one horse is more than enough for you to focus on right now. I do not suffer from clinical depression so I do not personally understand what it is like. However, the people who are saying that you need to get yourself under control are right. I have an aquaintence who has similar problems with controlling their behavior when they feel provoked. As a child, you are unlikely to really injure the horses physically, you are just too small. (Mentally is another matter altogether.) However, as you get older and stronger that will change. This aquaintence of mine is an adult and has never gotten their emotional sh*t together so when their horse pisses them off it is UGLY. They swing from allowing bad behavior to punishing for the same behavior and going way beyond what is needed/ necessary to make their point. (Positive reinforcement is not in this individual's vocabulary.) Fortunately, this indivdual finally has realized they are not a good match and the horse has been sold on to a much better situation. I do not like this person very much, mostly because I felt powerless to help their horse. My point is that you do not want to grow up to be one of those people. DocHF was completely right about getting help to know how your moods, body language, etc are affecting your horse. It will help you sooo much and you will realize that the behaviors you describe are caused by you. It is ALWAYS the humans fault. Just by owning Tex, the fault lies with you. You may not have taught him the undesirable behaviors but by failing to recognize that you have more horse than you can AT THIS MOMENT handle the fault with the whole situation lies with you. Someday I am sure that you will have the skills to handle a horse like him, but right now, the fit is just not right. I can tell you many stories about people who sent inappropriate (for them) horses out for training and although that horse came back better for a while, the same patterns soon re-emerged. Keep that in mind as you make the decision as to whether or not to sell the horse. I am definately not trying to pick on you, you asked for opinions and this is mine. Best of luck to you on whatever you decide.:)

greysandbays

May. 28, 2006, 01:16 PM

Does it strike anyone else as ironic that here we have a poster, a novice, with some "problems" in treating her horses perfectly fairly, yet some of us are just scratching and kicking to get to the head of the line to knock the crap out of her? Just because we are "tired" of having our pearls of vast wisdom ignored? Or because "OMG, this TEENAGER is doing something I would never, ever consider because I'm a weenie at heart, and how DARE she -- everybody must be AT LEAST as much a weenie as me!!!!!!!" Or maybe it's that they are all hyper about her defiling the sanctity of the HORSE IS GOD cult?

I'd say anybody that brutally announces that somebody has no business having horses at all because that anybody disapproves of something they do would rank right up there with kicking a horse in the head.

And anybody with "depression" who claims they never, ever treated their animals the least bit unfairly is either an outright liar or totally delusional. There's no way a brain can be misfiring badly enough to be clinically depressed, yet retain perfect control in the presence of animals at all times. If that were so, we'd have horseman lining up requesting to be inflicted with "depression" so they could be perfect with their horses.

atr

May. 28, 2006, 01:57 PM

So, I'm afraid I haven't read everything.

However, I was thinking about you as I was feeding my horses this morning. If you have decided to keep him and send him to a trainer, can I suggest that you stop trying to work with him in the interim? Apart form the obvious advantage of letting the trainer have a relatively blank slate, it'll give you a chance to step back and evaluate what you really want to do with him. He'll be fine as long as he gets fed and cared for.

Ride the mare. Enjoy her, spend your precious time with her. Learn from her.

Fear and anger can lead us to do things that we know we should not do--as you have discovered. Learn from this. Don't put yourself into these situations around animals (or humans) that either can't defend themselves or will likely hurt you badly if they try.

ddashaq

May. 28, 2006, 02:06 PM

I agree that people should not be knocking the crap out of DJ, but I get the feeling from reading this and other threads that people are tired of hearing the problems going back to the same issue (green horse with green handler) with minimal effort to resolve it. DJ does make the decision to keep coming back here, despite the fact that she often gets the same responses to her "help needed" threads. As I said before, I am not trying to pick on her, she is a CHILD and one with depression problems at that. I am sure that, combined with being a teen and likely lacking self confidence (as many teens do) can be tough. I wish her the best of luck and I hope that some good changes are coming for her and the horses. This horse thing, it is supposed to be fun, not a constant struggle!!:)

Trixie

May. 28, 2006, 03:34 PM

Yes I have gave him a kick in the nose which I shouldn't have done, but just because of one incident dosen't mean he needs to be sold. After training and I still have problems with him we will look into selling him. Not only do I love this horse, so does my mom, and she will be the main rider soon.

It's not ONE incident. Didn't he make you pull some muscles a while back?

If it were ONE incident it might be different, but you seem to have an awful lot of "incidents."

goeslikestink

May. 28, 2006, 04:09 PM

excuse me dj ---dressage - flat work gridwork is schooling and schooling isd training and dressage is schooling what ever you want to do with a horse dressage has a huge part did you not know that with dressage movements that has correct balance is the art of teaching horse to jump for with out the dreaage moevent fgiven in the correct format the horse will not --

goeslikestink

May. 28, 2006, 04:19 PM

the word dressage is french and literal translates into english is -- training--
whatever you do to him will influence him the aim is to have him metally and psycally balanced even if you dont want to compete --

a quote from my trainer -- hes a threew day eventer and bsja show jumper trianer hes an acredited britsh eventing trianer does all three dreaagse show jumps and /xc hes welll known here and in states

quote -- all horse can jump but some have more abiltiy than others. to discover that and to develop this ability you need to be trianer yourself . unquote--

that is in all things you want to do with said horses - i sleep now

greysandbays

May. 28, 2006, 04:35 PM

Ummmm, "Dressage" does not precisely mean "training". In the book, "DRESSAGE: A Study of the Finer Points of Riding" by Henry Wynmalen, it is explained that in its original French, the term "dressage" is only applied to the specialized training that advances the horse beyond the point of mere usefulness under saddle. One specific example he used was that of dog training. Come, Sit, Stay, and don't poop or pee in the house was ordinary behavior expected of any decent dog, and hence not "dressage". But a training gun dog, a police dog, or any other dog doing some extraordinary task was indeed "dressage".

In French, the term "Deborage" [sp???], which translates to something like "rough riding", is more applicable to the everyday riding horse.

jcotton

May. 28, 2006, 04:56 PM

As far as training goes, 30 days gets little or nothing accomplished. This young horse needs to be in full training for at least a 1 year. As stated previously, young horses are very impressionable, repetition of positive influences need to be repeated over and over by a qualified professional.

For getting a schoolmaster or well trained packer, whether it be for dressage or western would be a positive training issue. Not to mention being in training and riding under total supervision of a qualified professional as well as having guidance while handling horses from the ground, too.

Don't forget going to weekly therapy sessions to deal with emotions and medications.

MistyBlue

May. 28, 2006, 07:26 PM

Ummmm, "Dressage" does not precisely mean "training".

Not to argue...but yes, the word "dressage" is french for the word "training. It directly translates from dressage in french to training in english. Dressage has morphed from it's beginnings simply training a horse into an exact discipline in equestrain sports...but the discipline Dressage is still directly translated as Training. :winkgrin:

greysandbays

May. 28, 2006, 07:52 PM

Not to argue...but yes, the word "dressage" is french for the word "training. It directly translates from dressage in french to training in english. Dressage has morphed from it's beginnings simply training a horse into an exact discipline in equestrain sports...but the discipline Dressage is still directly translated as Training. :winkgrin:

So you are saying Henry Wynmalen does not know what he is talking about?

His precise words are:

"The current use of the word 'dressage' is, in England, of comparatively recent date. The word has been take over verbally from the French, as a term connected with horsemanship. The fact that there just is no exact equivalent whereby to translate 'dressage' into English probably goes a long way to explain the misunderstanding, and sometimes even the touch of mystery, whereto the use of this word has given rise.

But, though the term itself my be untranslatable, its correct meaning can be explained easily enough. The French word 'dressage', which has its precise equivalent in many continental languages, as for instance, 'dressur' in German, is derived from the verb 'dresser'. In a general way this is used only in connection with animals: on dresse un chien (dog), un cheval (horse), un elephant, un lion, or for that matter any animal that is teachable. Thus the word means teaching, or schooling, an animal. It means a good deal more than the English word 'training', which, used in connection with sport ands with animals, generally refers more particularly to the creation of physical fitness; in dressage the emphasis is rather more on the mental approach to the animal's understanding.

The difference goes further than that, since the term dressage is really only used to indicate a more advanced stage of animal teaching, to teaching him rather more, or possibly a lot more, than one requires ordinarily from an animal.

Thus the ordinary house-training of a dog, teaching to come when called and to comply with similar fundimental rules of doggy behavior does not qualify as dressage, but the training of a gundog, or a sheep or police dog, or that of a performing dog in the circus certainly does, for that is dressage!

Likewise, in the case of the horse, the term dressage is not used, in the country of its origin, in connection with the ordinary process of rendering a horse amenable to carrying a rider peaceably and reasonably effectively, and well enough for most people's ordinary requirments. That process, which may require anything up to about twelve months, in know in France by the term debourrage, which has a somewhat unpeasant sound in much the same way as the more or less equivalent of English terms of 'breaking' and 'rough-riding'.

It leads to a stage of plain usefulness beyond which very few horses ever progress, and this remark applies nearly as much to continental countries as it does to England."

StefffiC

May. 28, 2006, 09:09 PM

And anybody with "depression" who claims they never, ever treated their animals the least bit unfairly is either an outright liar or totally delusional. There's no way a brain can be misfiring badly enough to be clinically depressed, yet retain perfect control in the presence of animals at all times. If that were so, we'd have horseman lining up requesting to be inflicted with "depression" so they could be perfect with their horses.

Greysandbays...

I never mistreated my trainers horses or my own horses. I was one of her trusted students who got to ride the school horses when she wasn't around and the BO leased me (free lease ;) ) her high dollar PSG WB when I was just a dumb kid. Even when I got my first pony and was frustrated with her and her issues (attacking people, she was a major abuse case) I never mistreated my ponies.

When I would get frustrated to the breaking point I would get off, tie the pony to the RP, loosen her girth a hole, and go curry one of the school ponies. Let me tell ya, for a few months there that school had some shiny, sparkling ponies! The BO there could tell what kind of ride I'd had by how clean her ponies were after I left.

If you don't have the self control to know when to get off and go do something else you really don't deserve the horse. This is the second OMG I hit my horse in the face thread by DJ.

Steph

DressageGuy

May. 28, 2006, 09:16 PM

Well, said SteffiC, and my sentiments exactly. I've dealt with depression for many, many years, and have honestly, NEVER mistreated an animal in any way. I know when I'm starting to get frustrated and I always find a way to distance myself from that situation. Depression is not an excuse to abuse your horse, period.

greysandbays

May. 28, 2006, 09:39 PM

StefffiC

May. 28, 2006, 09:44 PM

Well, SteffiC and Dressage Guy, when I was your ages, I didn't think I'd ever really mistreated a horse, either. I know now that isn't so. Geesh!! I gotta start reading profiles before posting on here. I've got HORSES older than you two. :rolleyes: If it's all the same to you, I'll be taking advice from those no longer young enough to know everything.

Greysandbays,

I don't know everything. Matter of fact I know very little, however I've got about 15 years experience riding and 9 years experience working in barns. A few years experience as a working student.

If I abused my horses out of anger I imagine I wouldn't have had the opportunities I've had. I would no more hit my animal than I would hit my mother. They're both living feeling beings.

The woman that beat my mother TWH with a rake was bipolar and depressed. I told her to her face the same thing I said to DJ here. If you feel a need to beat a horse out of temper then you don't deserve them.

Steph

greysandbays

May. 28, 2006, 10:18 PM

Greysandbays,
If I abused my horses out of anger I imagine I wouldn't have had the opportunities I've had.

Well, HOT DAMN!!!!! I guess all those big shots who do terrible things to horses in name of "training" got all their "opportunities" 'cuz they were just abusing their horses to make money -- not out of anger or anything like that.

Thanks for the best laugh I've had all year. :eek:

StefffiC

May. 28, 2006, 10:22 PM

Well, HOT DAMN!!!!! I guess all those big shots who do terrible things to horses in name of "training" got all their "opportunities" 'cuz they were just abusing their horses to make money -- not out of anger or anything like that.

Thanks for the best laugh I've had all year. :eek:

I don't follow you here? I do believe alot of trainers abuse their horses to make money. I've (sadly) seen it with my own eyes.

Sure some react out of anger, but those are probably not your better trainers. BNT and Good trainers don't always go hand in hand!

Steph

~Freedom~

May. 28, 2006, 10:23 PM

greysandbays

May. 28, 2006, 10:32 PM

I don't follow you here? I do believe alot of trainers abuse their horses to make money. I've (sadly) seen it with my own eyes.

Sure some react out of anger, but those are probably not your better trainers. BNT and Good trainers don't always go hand in hand!

Steph

You were trying to use the "opportunites" you've had as decisive proof that it was not possible that you had ever abused a horse out of anger. I was pointing out that people who do terrible things to horses also had many "opportunities" (perhaps even many more than yourself).

You are claiming for yourself the right to declare what you've seen "with [your] own eyes" as abuse, yet you are also claiming for yourself the right to declare yourself above any such thing. There's just something, well, laughable about that. But for sure not in a "funny" way.

StefffiC

May. 28, 2006, 10:56 PM

Greysandbays,

I'm sure I've never done anything to intentionally harm a horse. That's it, period, end of story.

Maybe I'm different, but I was raised in a home where you don't harm your animals out of anger or any other reason.

Steph

Amchara

May. 29, 2006, 12:05 AM

Isn't it considered abuse to "whip" (meaning touch your horse with a stick in your hand) more then three times at once incident considered abuse in eventing?

dauntless

May. 29, 2006, 01:13 AM

goeslikestink

May. 29, 2006, 02:10 AM

grays and bays --re read your post --

dreassage -- is traning -- training - is teaching-- teaching - is schooling-- schooling is dressage--

basic of all movements is dressage -- cough cough trianing --

how does one give the right aids if one hasnt learnt them and whereby a good trainer can teach those that want to learn ,

to old to not know what iam doing have had more horses than you have hot dinners and all are and were well trained or schooled or taught
dessage schooling whatever - you want to and how you determined rightfulness to describe equitation by one person when there are many you missed the point i was trying to make --
-- the human hand makes a horse the way it is for it only learns by us to be good or bad--

MistyBlue

May. 29, 2006, 05:45 AM

[QUOTE][So you are saying Henry Wynmalen does not know what he is talking about?

His precise words are:
/QUOTE]

Again, not to argue...but...FreeTranslation.com's precise words are:

French:Dressage = English:Training

Direct translation. Not saying Mr. Wynmalen is wrong....just saying the word itself actually does mean training. Of course, it can then be explained in more depth.
Honestly...not being anti-semantic. :winkgrin:

Auventera Two

May. 29, 2006, 07:29 AM

So you are saying Henry Wynmalen does not know what he is talking about?

His precise words are:

"The current use of the word 'dressage' is, in England, of comparatively recent date. The word has been take over verbally from the French, as a term connected with horsemanship. The fact that there just is no exact equivalent whereby to translate 'dressage' into English probably goes a long way to explain the misunderstanding, and sometimes even the touch of mystery, whereto the use of this word has given rise.

But, though the term itself my be untranslatable, its correct meaning can be explained easily enough. The French word 'dressage', which has its precise equivalent in many continental languages, as for instance, 'dressur' in German, is derived from the verb 'dresser'. In a general way this is used only in connection with animals: on dresse un chien (dog), un cheval (horse), un elephant, un lion, or for that matter any animal that is teachable. Thus the word means teaching, or schooling, an animal. It means a good deal more than the English word 'training', which, used in connection with sport ands with animals, generally refers more particularly to the creation of physical fitness; in dressage the emphasis is rather more on the mental approach to the animal's understanding.

The difference goes further than that, since the term dressage is really only used to indicate a more advanced stage of animal teaching, to teaching him rather more, or possibly a lot more, than one requires ordinarily from an animal.

Thus the ordinary house-training of a dog, teaching to come when called and to comply with similar fundimental rules of doggy behavior does not qualify as dressage, but the training of a gundog, or a sheep or police dog, or that of a performing dog in the circus certainly does, for that is dressage!

Likewise, in the case of the horse, the term dressage is not used, in the country of its origin, in connection with the ordinary process of rendering a horse amenable to carrying a rider peaceably and reasonably effectively, and well enough for most people's ordinary requirments. That process, which may require anything up to about twelve months, in know in France by the term debourrage, which has a somewhat unpeasant sound in much the same way as the more or less equivalent of English terms of 'breaking' and 'rough-riding'.

It leads to a stage of plain usefulness beyond which very few horses ever progress, and this remark applies nearly as much to continental countries as it does to England."

I agree with this. I get sick of people claiming that teaching a horse to do ANYTHING under saddle constitutes dressage. It does not. Dressage is a specific discipline with specific goals, training styles, techniques, etc. I get offended when people tell me I'm teaching my mare to do dressage because she half passes and can do a shoulder in. Um, no. These movements are used in other disciplines as well and really have NOTHING to do with dressage. Horse & Rider (a Western publication) just recently did an article on teaching the young Western performance horse suppling exercises such as half pass. I rode dressage for years and quit for a reason. I refuse to subject my poor animals to that crap anymore. But there ARE techniques or movements that cross many disciplines and are not specific to dressage.

Auventera Two

May. 29, 2006, 07:37 AM

As far as training goes, 30 days gets little or nothing accomplished. This young horse needs to be in full training for at least a 1 year.

Snort. Wow, you better find yourself a new trainer if "little or nothing" gets accomplished in 30 days. :eek: I've seen trainers bring horses ahead lightyears on the training scale in just a single session.

creseida

May. 29, 2006, 08:33 AM

Dressage does literally translate as "training". And, yes, anything you do with your horse is also considered training. So, from a definitive stand point, anything you do with a horse is dressage. And if you are training a horse properly, you are using a systematic approach to teach the horse what you want it to learn.

If simply quoting one person is your basis for saying that dressage isn't training, then I offer these...

"The purpose of schooing a horse is to be able to get about on him and go wherever one wants with a minimum of exertion and effort for the rider and with a maximum of ease and therefore preservation for the horse. The schooling with the horse gets for this purpose is called, 'dressage'...It comprises the gymnastic training of the horse to maximum efficiency and education to obedience" -Wilhelm Museler

"The object of Dressage is, by systematic work, to make the horse calm, light and obedient, so that he may be pleasant in his movements and comfortable for the rider." - De la Gueriniere

Either way, Dressagejunkie is not qualified to train a youngster, and her numerous problems she posts about here on the boards clearly demonstrate this.

findeight

May. 29, 2006, 08:38 AM

:eek:

Wow. Shades of Musical Jumper in the Original post:no:.
Woe is me, it's not my fault, I HAVE to keep a horse I can't afford/train/ride/care for and I only want to hear from those who want to help me do it. Not those who point out the obvious.

And a summertime post run amok and far afield.

greysandbays

May. 29, 2006, 09:58 AM

Dressage does literally translate as "training".

So then you would agree that canter = lope = gallop? They are all the same thing, if any old training can be considered "dressage".

I would be a bit wary of spouting off translations, especially "literal" ones. I have a book ("EQUITATION") by some Frenchman (Jean Froissard). I'm not sure who did the translating to English, and I presume from some of the eyebrow raising phrases, that this translator was probably NOT a horseperson. In the section on "the lesson of the spur", the words "short but energetic attack of the spurs" are used. In context, with the rest of the informaiton, I am quite sure this is NOT exactly what he meant to say. At least I ferverently HOPE it is not. Later in the book in the section on "dressing up for the show", reference is made to "the horse's toilet" (now that one's just plain hilarious) :lol: in regards to grooming.

Museler's "RIDING LOGIC" was written in German and translated to English, and some of that makes me go HUH?????? :confused: as well.

Now that reining is becoming so popular in parts of Europe, it would be interesting to see how some of our American terms get translated into their languages and how we would go ballistic upon hearing some of their versions.

The thing I liked about reading Wynmalen is that he is[was? he's probably dead by now] fluent in both French and German in addition to his native English, and he could elaborate on writings in these languages from a horseman's viewpoint. I'd for sure trust his translations before some website's generic translator.

Amchara

May. 29, 2006, 10:04 AM

A professionaly could bring a horse a long ways in 30 days. How many days does a horse have in its life?

In a way, it hardly makes a dent in his brain. This is young, WTC horse. Maybe he'll learn more about half halts (assuming they have those western) and balanced downward transitions. So we have a horse who can WTC and make changes in between with out "falling" apart. There is soo much more to learn after this! He isn't perfect.

Then he'll come back and DJ will get him, and she could reverse all of that soo easily.

moonriverfarm

May. 29, 2006, 10:31 AM

If you are afraid of him, to the point that you can't get back on, you really need to let someone else enjoy him. You seem to have a mental block about him, and your fear and frustration is manifesting itself in negative ways. You know it and that too frustrates you.
Riding and caring for horses is supposed to be FUN for you and for the horse! If you enjoy your mare and are confident with her, keep that up and let Tex have an owner who can enjoy HIM! Sending him to the trainer will only "fix" some of his issues, and none of yours. You need confidence and that only comes from repeating positive experiences. Because you dont seem like a mean person, and I dont think you want to punish the horse for your insecurities, please consider selling him to someone with more experience and patience, and you just have fun with your mare.

creseida

May. 29, 2006, 12:34 PM

greysandbays, I think you lost my point. A quotation from a single person does not define the training system known as dressage. Like anything else with horses, there are many interpretations.

Canter = gallop? where did that come from, since one is a 3-beat gait and the other a 4-beat? They are both asymmetrical and have "leads", but they are not the same.

As for how much can be accomplished in 30 days of training, well, it depends on many factors: the horse, what the horse already knows, what the horse's temperament is, what "baggage" the horse comes with, the trainer, what the trainer knows, how deep is the trainer's tool box, what baggage the trainer has, etc.

At the barn where I teach, we have two youngsters in for training. They are the same age, they are both PMU foals of similar breeding (QH's), they have been raised together, and they have both had very little human contact other than being fed and scratched. They were basically wild.

They are both being worked by the same trainer.

Mare #1 has learned to be caught easily in the field, lead, W-T-C on the longe, have a saddle on her back and has had a rider on her 3 times now at the walk on the longe.

Mare #2 is skittish, freaks out if you move too quickly in her stall, leads well, every session on the longe is like her first. Mentally she needs to mature a lot. She won't be backed until next year.

My point in all this is Tex can go to a trainer for 30 days. You may get a lot, you may not. But none of this will matter if after 30 days he goes back to DJ who has fear issues and cannot continue to reinforce his new training because she doesn't know how. It will be a total waste of her time and money.

The original question was train or sell. The only logical answer is, sell.

summerhorse

May. 29, 2006, 12:38 PM

If you are depressed get help. If you have anger management problems get help.

That is no excuse for abusing your horses! Stay away from them if you feel bad, sell the one you are not getting along with (or better yet pay for him to go to a real trainer and THEN sell him, he's more likely to find a good home).

MistyBlue

May. 29, 2006, 12:48 PM

Later in the book in the section on "dressing up for the show", reference is made to "the horse's toilet" (now that one's just plain hilarious) :lol: in regards to grooming.

Actually, that is proper and correct english. Maybe not in American standards...but in European. In formal language...in England even a woman getting ready for a night out can be properly referred to as performing her toilet. Over here...a toilet is our "throne." Both words in English, 2 totally different meanings. A boot is a trunk, a bonnet is the hood of a car (auto) and an umbrella can be called a bumbershoot. "Had a fag" in england is a normal phrase...over here? Not so much. :winkgrin: It won't be understood here in the states as having a cigarette. When we "get pissed" here, we're pretty angry...not drunk like a Brit would be if he got pissed. So, as someone of English decent living in the states...it might be hilarious the differences in our same but different languages (especially in slang versions) but it does mean the same exact thing no matter how it's said.
Nobody is saying that 'all training" constitutes dressage. Obviously training a sliding stop isn't going to translate into "halt at x" unless you're trying to do the world's fastest dressage test and don't give a hoot about your score. :lol: Dressage training does constitute some differences from other disciplines, but basic dressage training does translate over into most other disciplines. Not until you get to the higher levels do the disciplines really start separating. A jumper can collect, be round and soft...a western pleasure horse works from back to front just without the contact...driving even has lateral movement when driving obstacle courses or maneuvering through tight spots. It can basically be pas de deux with a crapload more tack on the horses and the person sitting behind instead of on the horses. (which is pretty darned cool to watch and looks difficult as heck, btw!) But yes...dressage is training. It's specialized training once you get past training/1st level/etc....but it's still training.

eclipse

May. 29, 2006, 01:27 PM

Where in holy hell are your parent's? Are they totally blind or are you just actually making all this up for some attention?:mad: You have been told over & over by people giving you good advise, to STOP with this horse & give him to someone who is knowledgeable & patient. You are NOT ready to be looking after &/or training a horse. For heaven't sake, in previous posts, you admittingly say that you don't take your medications regularly! We have told you, you are going to get yourself killed, but do you listen......no! A kick in anger today, before you "think" about the consequences..........a stabbing tomorrow!

Rant over....I am now hitting the ignore button

Coup De Des

May. 29, 2006, 04:16 PM

Oh eclipse... quit the ranting... it's obviously not going to make a dint, so save your energy.

What lindsey's got is not necessarily what she wants but it's what she wants and what she's going to deal with.

If i was 14 and my parents got me a horse and we weren't the most compatible i sure as hell wouldn't sell it - a horse is a horse to a horse crazy kid. I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

Raleigh's Mom

May. 29, 2006, 06:17 PM

Hi, Lindsay. Not sure if you are still reading this..... but since it looks like you are keeping Tex, I really recommend that you get a book on clicker training. I think both of your horses would benefit from clicker training. It is based on positive reinforcement, and I think it could give you some direction to help ease your frustrations with your horse(s).

I have Alexandra Kurland's book, the step-by step guide, and it has helped with some issues that I have had with my youngster. Here is a link to her website. Good luck and stay safe.

http://www.theclickercenter.com/

Policy of Truth

May. 29, 2006, 06:28 PM

"Somthing has to change"

Yea, YOU have to change. Your insistance on being actively dysfunctional is sick at best. You keep saying you want to know what to do. People offer logical assistance and insight, yet you block them with your oppositional behavior/attitude.

And as a result of your anger issues, you have harmed an innocent animal. If this doesn't make you happy, then fix it. Otherwise, leave this BB. I am so tired of hearing about these horses and what they have to endure in order to be in your care. We went thru this with another young poster a few years ago and I cannot stomach another situation like that.:cry: :mad:

YankeeLawyer

May. 29, 2006, 07:47 PM

I have been following this thread on and off --to whoever said everyone loses their temper with horses at some point is wrong. Losing your temper has NO place with horses, and if you can't control your temper around animals you shouldn't have animals in your care.

DJ - you need to put your horse away for the day if you feel you are about to lose your temper. Obviously whatever condition your battling is more complicated than clinical depression. I am a little concerned that you act impulsively, without thinking, and that is a lot harder to manage with the just "walk away" approach. But really, you need to give you and your horse a time out if you feel like you are going to lash out at your poor horse.

Do you treat your horses this way when other people are around? If not, perhaps you should just only handle them when you are accompanied by someone else?

flypony74

May. 30, 2006, 09:19 AM

Beasmom

May. 30, 2006, 09:54 AM

It doesn't sound like you are having much fun with your horses, but instead are experiencing a lot of frustration, which is ultimately being turned back on the horse.

My suggestion? Sell both horses and find an older, more experienced horse that you can have FUN on. Let him show you the ropes. You need a horse that you can take anywhere and do anything on. You don't need to be attempting to train young horses, but instead need to be developing your skills on an experienced horse, and most of all, having fun. Why would you throw away the fun of all this just because you are determined to call yourself a trainer?

Flypony74 is exactly right! Especially the last sentence. At 14, you are YEARS away from being able to call yourself a trainer, especially when you add on the obvious emotional troubles you are dealing with. It takes maturity and self-control to train a horse, something you sadly lack at this point in your life. A good experienced older horse will teach you the things you need to know about riding, patience, self-control, all that good stuff.

I also suspect, from your posts and the responses of others who have followed your history, that you are not getting COMPETENT help from an experienced adult trainer/instructor. This is so important! A decent trainer/instructor would have long ago discouraged you from taking on young horses until your own skills were better developed. Or are you so hard-headed that you won't even take the advice of your riding teacher? If that is so, you are doomed to failure.

I wish you luck, but the bottom line is, YOU have to make positive changes if you want to progress with horses. Sell Tex, (and maybe the mare, too) and find a wise older horse to be your friend and teacher. lt is not a defeat, it is a new start. It takes maturity to admit you're in over your head.

And if Tex is supposed to be your Mom's horse, and she hasn't ridden in years, she probably needs an older horse, too, anyway, to help knock off the rust. A green horse is a surefire confidence killer for kids and adults just returning to the saddle after several years. WHY continue to beat your head against a wall? (Because it feels so good when you stop??)

goeslikestink

May. 30, 2006, 04:17 PM

echo that misty blue - haha

apple and stairs-- dog and bone-- haha

lovely jubbley --- no not an ice pole - haha

or -- pissed as a fart-- haha

to those that dont know that is slang-- but i put wood in hole now and that my freind is yorkshire lancaster way up north in uk means shut the door

and the taffy bit of me says nestar-- thats goodnight in welsh

caffeinated

May. 31, 2006, 07:54 AM

As may very well be the case but some of the replies here have been scathing. You don't know this girl, you can only respond to what you read, but it doesn't give any one the right to get self righteous and pious. Give her some credit for being brave and honest enough to post her mistakes.

Well think about it. Sometimes people need a kick in the butt and need to be told when they're doing something stupid.

DJ, you're not stupid, and you do have some problems.

However, continuing to train this young horse (and yes, every time you're around him, you're training him, whether you think so or not) is a stupid thing to do.

From your past posts, it's obvious that the more you handle the horses the more they act up and start having trouble. That's the plain fact. Given that fact, it's also pretty easy to see that if you continue in this way things will get worse.

Your horse's reactions to you is not his fault. He's acting like a young horse acts, and you do not have the ability and experience to see and deal with it. If you send him away to training, he'll probably come back much better, however, YOU still won't have the ability and experience to see when there's a problem coming. The end result is that he will likely regress or blow up.

I've been in your shoes (well, mostly. I've never kicked a horse in the face out of anger). I had a young horse when I was a teenager. I had been riding for YEARS at that point, with twice weekly lessons, some showing, and lots of riding outside of those lessons. Technically, I knew how to ride (which given the time you've been riding, you don't even have yet). I was still NOT EQUIPPED to deal with the four year old OTTB that I ended up with. I thought SHE was being bad when she bucked, not realizing that I was riding defensively and making her uncomfortable. I thought SHE was being mean when she bit or invaded my space, not realizing that there was plenty of warning and it was MY FAULT for not directing her properly. I spent two years getting bucked off that horse onto my head before I figured it out.

Now, if you want to spend years getting hurt and blaming the horses for what is really your own shortcoming, more power to you.

But you should sell this boy and get a nice older horse who will put up with your inability and teach you to be better without hurting you.

If you continue to ignore this advice, fine, but here's what you can expect:

horse will come back from training and be much better.

you will think everything's great and dandy

In a couple weeks, his tail will start twitching

Your continued bad riding (let's face it, when he wouldn't go forward and started backing up? My horse did that too. And it was because of MY BAD RIDING) will start to make him tense up

Then all of a sudden, you will start experiencing the same problems you were before.

And heck, he might even blow up and you'll find yourself on your head a lot.

I was never clinically depressed, but I have been a young person with a young horse that I shouldn't have had. Every single problem I attributed to her being mean or cranky was really ME RIDING BADLY and not knowing what I was doing. End of story.

People are jumping on you, DJ, probably because they've been there too, and they know it's not pretty.

Now do the SMART thing, not the stupid thing, and sell the horse and find something more tolerant and older who can teach you the skills you need to deal with younger horses in the future. You're not ready for it now, and you're going to get hurt.

Beverley

May. 31, 2006, 02:06 PM

"At 14, you are YEARS away from being able to call yourself a trainer, especially when you add on the obvious emotional troubles you are dealing with."

Pleeezzze do not generalize. I broke and trained my first 2 yo at age 14 (after working with some older problem horses including a heckuva bucking shetland pony) and she turned out just fine. Won her fair share in a dozen or more different western events, started foxhunting at 26, packing a 4 yo boy, was euthanized at 31. Did I lose my temper along the way? Yes. Probably made a zillion and one mistakes too. The key is appropriate adult involvement/supervision-- as in, a knowledgeable parent or trainer or barn manager who need not be involved every day but can keep an eye on things and intervene with advice/instruction when it is needed. And as in, knowing enough at 14 to know when to ask for help. I suppose asking for help in this forum could be seen as a positive step if you can stand the ranting, but you really need to get on the ground help from someone who can be there with you and the horse.

moonriverfarm

May. 31, 2006, 02:14 PM

SOME 14 yr olds can "school" a horse, but training takes an adult brain, and no 14 yr old IMHO is capable of true "training" because there is so much more to it than just getting the horse to move. The maturity level and knowledge of somoen who has had many years of experience cannot be compared to a 14 yr old who at best could have been realistically "learning" for 4 years. Add that to hormones, boys, school, and parents and the combination is not the most ideal mix with a young, green horse.
I say again-sell this poor horse and concentrate on a more settled, predictable horse to LEARN with. And please, when you feel like losing your ****, step away from the situation before you do things you will regret.

Pirateer

May. 31, 2006, 03:14 PM

To all the people jumping on her - have you ever been Depressed?

Seriously. Do you know what it's like to be Depressed? How Depressed people act?

Yes, I do. I've been cyclomythic/manic since I was about 12....and had "symptoms" since I was 5 years old. Gimme a break.

I don't get mad at a horse and kick him in the face and say its because of my depression. Have I kicked a horse in the gut? Sure. Was it because I can't control myself? No.

Being able to control your emotions is ABSOLUTELY necessary around green horses. It is inexcusable to let something like this to happen, ESPECIALLY if you KNOW that YOU have a problem.

Get rid of the horse before you ruin him or he hurts you from your ignorance...or rather, inability to accept that YOU don't have the ability to train a green horse with problems.

2WBs1TB

May. 31, 2006, 03:18 PM

It turns out that our dear little sociopath isn't a trainer afterall. She has someone she's training under, although I feel for the trainer, unless she condones such activities.

Either way, I still feel for the horses. They are the ones really suffering here.

caffeinated

May. 31, 2006, 03:22 PM

Wait, did I miss the OP saying she was a trainer?

I seem to recall her at least mentioning that she was taking lessons.

Beverley

May. 31, 2006, 03:26 PM

Thank you Two Simple, I knew I wasn't the only person on the planet to have every trained a horse at age 14. Last I heard, being the first and only to tack up and ride a two year old and then taking it to 'made' show horse still qualifies as training. Which is actually a good deal easier than some of the 'schooling' I've had to do on horses with issues!

goeslikestink

May. 31, 2006, 03:27 PM

her trainer is a matey who has horses same age--

so not only does her mum and dad let her deal with horses that are green as a pea- and put her at risk she put matey at risk to -- good parents i think and so knowledgable around horses after all isnt tex hers-- oh um

whre are they when horse is pita with the farrier surely they pay the bills as kid is 14 so where are they --the horses are on her property so she said to. so where is the mum and where is the dad she says they around when she trianing
but where are they whenshe gets hurts or when someone else gets hurt

and why isnt mom on the horse herself iif its hers-- where is the mums trianer in all this or mums lessons wtih trianer --

i would be asking heaps of questions as to why if i was her mum and i would be on here myself if i wasnt horsey asking for advice of what to do
i would take charge if a kid of mine was getting hurt then i would take charge shes a minor --- under the legal age --

Tiramit

May. 31, 2006, 03:59 PM

Holy shades of Musical Jumper indeed, Findeight. Oi!

If we take the kicking in the face comment aside and pulled just one of the other gems lost in this maze of "what not to do's", let it be the comment that a 3 year old horse needs to be ridden every day. Every day. EVERY day. By someone who doesn't have a lot of experience riding young horses. And is afraid of him. And bails when he backs up. And has parents who are also inexperienced horse people.

Hold her hand all you want, but it's a fool's bet that this will turn out well. Depressed, not depressed. Sick or not. Immature or not. For pete's sake, think about the poor, dumb animal in this situation!! That's why we're all here, right? This is the Chronicle of the HORSE, not the Chronicle of the <enter your favorite medical / mental / immaturity issue> Horse Owner! This horse is NOT in a good situation.

DJ, do yourself a favor and act like a horseman by putting the horse first. Sell him to someone who can and will handle him properly.

Coup De Des

May. 31, 2006, 04:16 PM

Just drug the horse. He'll be so much better behaved for you. And you can even hop on him and ride him because he'll be so quiet! Your parents will think you're an amazing trainer! Specially when he lays down and you can be all like "oh i taught him that" Then stand on him to demonstrate the awesomeness of the trick. *wink*.

Jaegermonster

Jun. 1, 2006, 06:27 AM

Why is it every time I see a thread by DressageJunkie I find myself thinking, Oh God Here we go again? This kid just does not get it and her parents obviously don't want to deal with her either.

Coobie

Jun. 1, 2006, 09:51 AM

DocHF

Jun. 1, 2006, 10:23 AM

I note that DJ has left this thread some time ago.
I have some sympathy for her and applaud her for leaving the thread. She is only 14 and leaving takes self control.
I know I am now adding to the fray, as have all posters on this thread.
The poor kid is so starved for attention that she found it hard to leave even this grab-bag of abuse and advice.
As for training a horse as a 14 year old, there are many of us who have actually done this. My straight off the track TB bought in a claiming race with money from my paper route, was trained only by a 14 year old me. I could only afford board, and gave up most of my lessons as soon as I bought him. I sold him 4 years later as a child's hunter and he went on to palce in the top 3 in our region (under a younger rider who had money to show) the next year. So the training can't have been that bad. But I had been breaking horses since I was 12 (not by myself- with very experienced cowboys and a former master of the horse of the RCMP musical ride- I was the monkey!) and had been taught a lot by those folks. I doubt DJ has that advantage. Too bad.

doccer

Jun. 1, 2006, 11:18 AM

horsephotolady

Jun. 1, 2006, 12:18 PM

Well I haven't read every thread here, but from some of those I have read, I agree w/you doccer. Very disappointed in the adults on this board. Apparently for some of you, abuse of horses is not acceptable but abuse of young girls is. Why don't people try on the concept of "abuse is not acceptable period." Doesn't matter whether it's horses or people. This girl made a mistake, she knows she did. Give her a break. Possibly the true saints of this world who have NEVER made mistakes might have a leg to stand on if they criticized this girl, but then a true saint wouldn't stoop to this level anyway. I don't find any excuse at all for the snarkiness of some of you.

What is is with so many horse people that they think they are so "holier-than-thou"!? The people involved make me wish I'd taken up a different sport. It's just the horses that keep me coming back for more.

~DressageJunkie~

Jun. 1, 2006, 12:26 PM

cartera45

Jun. 1, 2006, 01:30 PM

Why is it every time I see a thread by DressageJunkie I find myself thinking, Oh God Here we go again? This kid just does not get it and her parents obviously don't want to deal with her either.

I find this whole situation so sad on every level. If I had a dime for every time this young girl expressed her frustration on these boards and asked for advice, I could afford to send one of her horses for training. If I had a dime for every time she rejected that advice responding instead with excuses, I could train them both. What the heck is up with her parents? They buy her one green horse who has been dangerous with her in the past. Then they buy her one of an even brighter shade of green. This is some combination of child abuse/animal abuse. She will make excuses for them, but there are none. They need to step up and act like parents before she gets hurt. Through inexperience, lack of patience and inconsistency she is frustrating the heck out of both of these horses and someone may pay the price for that. I can't see 30 days of training helping because I think they may be back to square on day 32. If parents want to use animals for therapy or company or whatever else, they should consider cats.

CharliesMom

Jun. 1, 2006, 01:59 PM

It may be that DJ will sell Tex. It seems she is already seeking advice on buying a new horse ...
47972
Or will this just be horse #3??

ChocoMare

Jun. 1, 2006, 02:12 PM

It may be that DJ will sell Tex. It seems she is already seeking advice on buying a new horse ...
47972

Advice, we fear, she will not take. :no: Just like she has not taken any of the thousands of pieces of sound, very kind, gentle, guiding pieces of advice already given ad nauseum by many, many older, more experienced equestrians of this BB on multiple threads. This is why there are some rather ugly replies to her posts....most of us are fed up. :sigh:

cartera45

Jun. 1, 2006, 02:18 PM

Oh no - red flags already in that thread. DJ - you are a beginner and you need a beginner horse. Even if you won't accept that, you want your parents to be able to ride this horse and they are beginners. Perhaps you can find a dead broke horse from a lesson program who would love some one on one attention. Your whole family could learn a lot from a horse like that.

~DressageJunkie~

Jun. 1, 2006, 02:33 PM

No, it won't be a third horse.

ChocoMare, so I am not taking your advice, but I am serious about selling him... I thought you recomended selling him.

Cartera I am looking for a intermediate horse, my parents have ridden Tex, anything more from then him is better. Since my parents don't take care of them, I do all the work, and they ride once in a blue moon, I am looking for somthing that suits me too.

cartera45

Jun. 1, 2006, 02:54 PM

I applaud your decision to sell Tex - I guess we have different definitions of "intermediate." If I think in terms of beginner, intermediate and advanced, then my daughter's trainer who was practically born on a horse and rides 10 horses a day on many days is advanced. It takes a lot for me to call someone an advanced rider, because part of my definition is that they can ride pretty much anything that is under them and, while they may benefit from continued instruction, they can pretty much work out any problem they encounter using the knowledge they have. Most advanced riders I know have some sort of intangible "talent" and you know it when you see it. Most people I know are intermediate riders. They still need a good amount of instruction and have not had a lot of experience riding a lot of different horses. No matter how many hours some of them put them in, they will never be advanced. Those who have just had sporadic lessons and should not really be jumping anything other than caveletti without a trainer or instructor are beginners in my book. There are a bunch of different levels of skill within that beginner group, but they are still beginners. They could get something other than a beginner horse if they have the horse in a program and ride with a trainer who is also willing to school the horse. Unless you make firm arrangements to have a trainer come to you or you trailer there at least 3 days a week, you need a beginner horse. I base this on issues you have encountered in the past and how you have dealt with them.This trainer is hopefully an advanced rider who can school the horse for you if necessary. I am not insulting you. You have just not had the opportunity for consistent instruction to be considered anything other than a beginner. Trying hard isn't part of the equation.

DocHF

Jun. 1, 2006, 07:53 PM

Darn I take it back. No self control. pity.

~DressageJunkie~

Jun. 1, 2006, 08:04 PM

Darn I take it back. No self control. pity.

Really wondering where and why that came from....

Policy of Truth

Jun. 2, 2006, 09:28 AM

DJ, please print this thread out and show it to your parents, your trainer, and your therapist. Think about the following (you don't need to answer it for us..just yourself):

When will you give yourself permission to change? When will you be open to making life better, easier on yourself? Are you ok with yourself right now? Honestly?

At some point, most people want relief from the anger, frustration and sadness. Are you ok with how you feel? Are you satisfied with how people percieve you?

Examine the relationships you have outside of this BB (or any others). What can you learn about yourself from those? Are you satisfied with them? If not, why?

Do you believe it is ok to ever take your frustrations out on an animal or another person? If not, why not? And how can you do your best to ensure it doesn't happen again?

Flipper K.

Jun. 2, 2006, 10:44 AM

Cartera I am looking for a intermediate horse ... I am looking for somthing that suits me ...

DJ,

I think you'll find, when you start shopping, that a beginner's horse is what you truly need. I know everyone's definitions are different, but you need to be looking at ads that say "packer", "show veteran", "been there, done that", etc.

Someone suggested you look for temperament "ratings" of 1-2 on the sites that have that. I agree, I wouldn't look at anything higher than a 3.

First, you need to sell Tex.

You also need to come up with a budget - not only for BUYING the next one, but let your parents know - you'll need $ for TRAINING. I don't care how experienced the horse is, you will need lessons on him / her.

The budget should include Sheza's training as well, and the feed bills, farrier bills, vet bills for shots, deworming, etc.

If I were you I'd open Excel and start myself a spreadsheet, then print out and share with Mom & Dad. You should all be on the same page about the sale of Tex & the next horse (including who cares for / rides it) waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay before you take ANY action.

Learn from what you are going through now. Good luck.

-Flip

(who is still posting on these threads even though I promised myself I wouldn't)

BornToRide

Jun. 2, 2006, 10:48 AM

I too noticed DJ hasn't been on her thread for awhile either. Maybe once the 'adults' in this room have quit snarking at each other and picking one another apart she'll be able to come back. I'm disapointed in ALOT of the posts on this thread, If you can't give constructive criticism --to a 14 YEAR OLD GIRL -- Control yourself and walk away. insert *eyebrow raised smiley*

Truly disapointed in the bb. :(
I just had similar thoughts - I was also a bit disturbed by the whole depression angle. This is a young developing teenager for heaven's sake. Use some common sense and show some compassion.

DressageGuy

Jun. 2, 2006, 01:47 PM

So because she's a young developing teenager and seems to have depression, we should just let it slide that her horses are being mistreated? I'm not trying to pick on you, DJ, really. BTR, your statement makes absolutely no sense. I'd be much more willing to show compassion if I saw the situation improving, but each post she's started has been increasing in severity.

BornToRide

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:01 PM

I also do not see how your approach is effectively getting through to her!

ChocoMare

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:03 PM

I also do not see how your approach is effectively getting through to her!

Because of the hundreds of nice, friendly, kind and concerned posts that have proceed this thread were ignored too. Many of us are out of patience.

Janet

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:11 PM

If some of you are wondering why some of the "older" posters seem to be over reacting, I suggest you read this thread from the archives
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=34950&highlight=Musical+Jumper

Especially post 143.

hitchinmygetalong

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:46 PM

Thanks Janet. :cry: Still hurts, doesn't it?

A. P.

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:55 PM

fourh mom

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:56 PM

ChocoMare

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:58 PM

No, DJ is not MJ. However, do go to post No. 143 in Musical Jumper's thread and you'll see "the truth" that was posted. After learning said "truth" everyone who had bent over backwards to help MJ and Seger felt like dag-blasted idiots who had been suckered in.

Having been there before with another young lady, it makes us wary of this particular young lady and her stories.

Linda513

Jun. 2, 2006, 02:59 PM

I think MJ is another young girl who was unprepared to care for a horse that was beyond her means and tragedy resulted. No one wants the same thing to happen to DJ.

Janet

Jun. 2, 2006, 03:13 PM

"If some of you are wondering why some of the "older" posters seem to be over reacting, I suggest you read this thread from the archives
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...Musical+Jumper" (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=34950&highlight=Musical+Jumper)

I am confused - the first part of the trhread you link to has been deleted so I can't see how it relates to this one. Is Musical_jumper the same person as DressageJunkie? If so, what happened.

I have read many threads from this girl. It is very sad, and sounds like her parents are clueless - buying her un- or under trained horses, not getting her lessons, not having her riding supervised by a knowlegeable adult.
Very sad. NO, DressageJunkie is NOT MJ.

But MJ was also a young, somewhat troubled, horse mad girl with clueless parents. She did quite well with a pony, and then was given an OTTB that she "had trouble keeping weight on". She elicited a LOT of sympathy and support. Then the OTTB was cast, and when the vet came out he found the horse was so emaciated it was near death, and had to be put down.

It turned out that they were expecting the OTTB to thrive on the same rations that the pony had, and expected "grazed down" pasture to provide the same nutrition as lush, fresh, pasture. They didn't recognize, or refused to see, how badly he was doing.

Many people here felt a combination of guilt that they hadn't recognized the "danger signs" of how serious the situation was, and anger that they had been deceived.

I haven't read all of this thread, or the other threads, so I don't have my own opinion, but it is clear that some of the posters who lived through that episode think they see "danger signs" here, and are determined not to just "wait and see" how it evolves.