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Mike Matson
May. 25, 2006, 11:12 AM
From Colonel Albrecht von Ziegner, as written in the current issue of Dressage Today.

"It is hard to believe that a workshop under the leadership of the FEI is going down the path of such misconception. In an effort to give Rollkur a chance, they decided to try giving it a pseudoscientific term. 'Hyperflexion' has an academic connotation and hence it carries a higher status!

"I do agree that the term has to be found which makes sense to riders, trainers and the general public and which describes what it really is: Zwangsjacke or Camisole de Force (straightjacket). To me it appears to be high time to bring these misconceptions to a standstill. Those who are responsible in the equestrian community have to concentrate with great determination on the goal. It can only be the wholehearted effort to maintain the pure doctrines in the way they are implied by the art of classical riding and also to counteract the decline of this important cultural assets into some sort of 'equi-capitalism.' "

Mozart
May. 25, 2006, 11:16 AM
And awaaayyyy we go...:)

siegi b.
May. 25, 2006, 11:32 AM
Mike,
I'm really disappointed that you felt it necessary to stir things up again...
Siegi

JSwan
May. 25, 2006, 11:33 AM
Ooo - train wreck coming - let me go get some popcorn.....

I like the straitjacket analogy.

Mike Matson
May. 25, 2006, 11:43 AM
Siegi B,

I don't think you would have been disappointed in the editor's response.

Mike

slc2
May. 25, 2006, 12:09 PM
:sleepy:

sm
May. 25, 2006, 12:11 PM
thanks for the post, Mike Matson.

You give us a chance for an intelligent discussion. We'll see...

mzpeepers
May. 25, 2006, 12:17 PM
Zzzzzzz.....Zzzzzzzz.....Zzzzzzz......

BTW Mike, what's a workship? Does it float?

Mozart
May. 25, 2006, 12:27 PM
How is it going to be an intelligent discussion when the author of the article refers to the training technique as "straightjacket"? He has set the debate up in a pejorative framework. I actually think that it is useful to decide first on an objective name for the practise then explore, research, debate etc on whether it is good or bad or good for some and bad for most or good sometimes or bad always or.. or.. whatever.

I would actually not mind seeing a dispassionate, objective, knowledgeable debate on the subject. I personally don't have the background or knowledge to take part in a debate like that. I believe some here do. Unfortunately, in cyber space at least, it seems to bring out posters who end up resorting to name calling and nationality bashing.

I would love to be proven wrong.

DressageGuy
May. 25, 2006, 12:36 PM
Atleast we finally have some more widley-known/recognized masters speaking out against the BS that has become internation competitive dressage. After watching several performances on RFD-TV at GP competitions, it's quite distressing to see "extended" trots that don't track up, piaffes and passages where the horse is swinging his hind end all over the place, and piaffes where there is a ton of forward movement. When are people going to realize that this is NOT correct training?

Tonja
May. 25, 2006, 12:44 PM
I think the term “zwangsjacke” is very fitting. It’s far more descriptive than “rollkur” or “hyperflexion”.

sm
May. 25, 2006, 12:51 PM
I'm with you Mozart, I'd "love to be proven wrong" too. Otherwise I'm wasting my time here at COTH -- and some people do have the indepth knowledge for an intelligent discussion.

****
Mozart writes, "How is it going to be an intelligent discussion when the author of the article refers to the training technique as "straightjacket"? He has set the debate up in a pejorative framework. I actually think that it is useful to decide first on an objective name for the practise then explore, research, debate etc on whether it is good or bad or good for some and bad for most or good sometimes or bad always or.. or.. whatever.

I would actually not mind seeing a dispassionate, objective, knowledgeable debate on the subject. I personally don't have the background or knowledge to take part in a debate like that. I believe some here do. Unfortunately, in cyber space at least, it seems to bring out posters who end up resorting to name calling and nationality bashing.

I would love to be proven wrong."

****

saltheart
May. 25, 2006, 12:53 PM
I'm in the :sleepy: camp, myself. BTDT on the debate. What it's called doesn't matter one whit. The practice is what it is - do it or don't but why discuss ad nauseum any more?

Daydream Believer
May. 25, 2006, 02:19 PM
Atleast we finally have some more widley-known/recognized masters speaking out against the BS that has become internation competitive dressage. After watching several performances on RFD-TV at GP competitions, it's quite distressing to see "extended" trots that don't track up, piaffes and passages where the horse is swinging his hind end all over the place, and piaffes where there is a ton of forward movement. When are people going to realize that this is NOT correct training?

Many people already do realize it is not correct and the results produced by it are not correct (ducks for cover.:p ) I've had some very interesting conversations with my dressage coach who is an R judge and very against rollkur and all it's lesser variations. She feels the change back to classical and correct principles will begin here in the US and spread back to Europe. It is interesting to hear the perspective of someone who has trained several GP horses without rollkur and who is very upset at the modern trends.

DressageGuy
May. 25, 2006, 02:38 PM
I don't see it starting here in the US. I see it spreading much further here first, before the sheeple realize that just because someone's winning everything in sight, does NOT mean that they train correctly. Our country is so hung up on winning, that I really cannot foresee the trend starting here. I see it possibly beginning in Germany, but I really have no idea. I've talked to several BNT's and upper-level trainers, and all felt that RK is a bane on classical dressage.

ideayoda
May. 25, 2006, 02:50 PM
Those who use traditional methods, and more importantly seek uphill balance and collection, have not ever varied from the course. Those with only a short time in the sport who happened to come to power (by mistaken reasoning) have no committment to the long term survival of the support, and certainly no traditional to uphold. The written guidelines of the FEI still promote that balance as well; people with a long term commitment to the horse feel differently. So, we should either follow the directives for balance, etc, or honestly abandon them and write new guidelines. That part is clear. And if no one wants to uphold the principles, then start another group full of flashy movement, tense gaits, and loud music (how can a horse's hearing taken what makes peoples heads hurt to listen to?). Those who seek to sustain the principles do not sign up for this equivocation, although they should have stopped it earlier instead of thinking it would disappear by itself. Why should they? And those who do not believe in the guidelines are delicately cloaked by (AvZ's well stated) 'camisole de force' image. Well the camisole is thin, and the balance even more suspect.

The people who stand against lack of balance are not of one country, but of one (uphill) balance and correct collection. French/spanish/swiss/german/scandanavian/even dutch.

physical.energy
May. 25, 2006, 03:07 PM
I think that I am not convinced that it doesn't have physiological ramifications and I'm not sure how that can be proven. For instance, in the hyperflexion position my concern would be that it can narrow the airway and therfore reduce the ability of oxygen intake. If held for a sustained period of time, a reduction of O2 will cause fatigue which may lead to injury to the different systems but mainly muscle and ligament. So, my thoughts are from a medical perspective first and formost.
Whether the horses are "Happy" or not well each horse is different. One theory I have discussed with a very well known trainer..... says that when a horses head is down as when eating there is a natural release of seritonin... so relaxation may occur when in the hyperflexion position. When a horses head is up is when adrenalin is released and therefore they have increased and hightened sense of awareness. So, I take no position on the matter only wonder about these things. Thoughts?

Tonja
May. 25, 2006, 03:49 PM
My perception of rollkur/zwangsjacke issue:

Rollkur and riding the horse behind the vertical have become widely accepted in the dressage competition community and there are those who would like any further discussion on rollkur to go away but as long as rollkur is promoted as ‘dressage’ training the controversy will continue. It’s not a matter of argumentativeness or close mindedness. There are valid reasons why many supporters of the Equestrian Art can not accept horses being ridden behind the vertical as dressage:

• The horse’s natural head and neck position express the horse’s balance (or imbalance) or discomfort. Riding the horse in a forced frame takes away the horse’s voice.

• Either the horse must use incorrect neck muscles in order to hold its face behind the vertical or the rider must actively hold the horse behind the vertical. Either way, undue tension is created.

• Riding the horse behind the vertical constrains the horse's neck, restricts its movements, distorts its gaits and is in direct conflict with the horse’s nature.

• Riding the horse behind the vertical makes it impossible for the horse to use it haunches correctly and find the relaxation that enables the horse to enjoy its freedom of movement and independent balance.

• When the horse’s face is behind the vertical the horse can not carry its head and neck in balance over its shoulders so that the forehand can be efficiently lifted and carried with the assistance of the haunches.

• The thrusting energy of the hind legs does not travel through to the poll. The energy only makes it to the area in the neck where the vertebra are ‘broken’, at which point the energy is stifled by the head and remaining neck that are hanging downward heavily off the front end of the horse. The weight of the already overburdened forehand is increased.

The purpose of the Equestrian Art is to harmoniously develop the physique and ability of the horse by improving the rhythm and purity of its gaits to the point where the horse relaxes and naturally reaches forward with its whole spine to offer the rider a soft elastic contact with the bit, thereby enabling the rider to refine the horse’s balance and energy to collection. It’s improving the horse’s balance that not only makes the horse more enjoyable to ride, it can help extend its useful and pain free life. Keep in mind that the high airs above the ground – the display of ultimate refinement of balance and energy – don’t require extreme ‘stretching’. The classical principles that the art is based on were not arrived at as a matter of personal taste. They were derived from the laws of balance and behavior science, with clear objectives in mind. Balance is a matter of physics and can not be influenced by personal preference.

It doesn’t take an expert to see that even the ‘top’ horses who have been trained behind the vertical or with rollkur (Albrecht von Ziegner's uses the fitting term, “zwangsjacke”), exhibit increased weight on the forehand, distorted gaits, tension, false head sets, lack of throughness and imbalance, all of which inhibit engagement. In essence, riding the horse behind the vertical produces the opposite effect of what the Equestrian Art sets out to accomplish. I see the focus on rollkur as a distraction created to take attention away from the heart of the issue, which is that horses, performing fundamentally incorrect work by classical standards, are being highly rewarded in competition.

The FEI instituted the International Dressage Event in order to protect the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve the Art in the purity of its principles. Either the FEI will uphold the enduring classical principles of dressage or it won’t. The development of the sport at the expense of its principles can not, in all honesty, be considered ‘development’ of the sport of Dressage. It is the development of another riding style and ought to be officially recognized as such.

If the FEI is going to offer Dressage in competition then the FEI owes it to it’s the equestrian community to carefully select judges who understand and uncompromisingly uphold the classical Art in the purity of its principles and who will recognize and reward correctly working balanced horses.

http://www.ridingart.com/visual-points.htm
http://www.ridingart.com/balance.htm

Tonja Dausend

Lambie Boat
May. 25, 2006, 04:12 PM
who is making the Tshirt? :cool:

Daydream Believer
May. 25, 2006, 04:15 PM
I don't see it starting here in the US. I see it spreading much further here first, before the sheeple realize that just because someone's winning everything in sight, does NOT mean that they train correctly. Our country is so hung up on winning, that I really cannot foresee the trend starting here. I see it possibly beginning in Germany, but I really have no idea. I've talked to several BNT's and upper-level trainers, and all felt that RK is a bane on classical dressage.

It was just her opinion and I dare not say why here or I will get slammed for certain. She did have some logical thought behind that comment.

Tonya, I really enjoyed your post and feel you made some very good points.

Kathy Johnson
May. 25, 2006, 05:21 PM
who is making the Tshirt?

Jackets might be more appropriate--straight jackets, that is.

physical.energy
May. 25, 2006, 05:50 PM
Pass the chips and dip, I'm going for the margarita....... I feel a snark feast coming on.

Sabine
May. 25, 2006, 06:01 PM
Mike,
I'm really disappointed that you felt it necessary to stir things up again...
Siegi


Must be really boring over on TOB.
By writing like this in DT I begin to loose my respect for this great horseman as well- seems like they all have to jump on the bandwagon of getting their names printed in the name of protecting the 'classical riding' rules.

How about just riding well...???

Alagirl
May. 25, 2006, 06:03 PM
Ooo - train wreck coming - let me go get some popcorn.....

I like the straitjacket analogy.


I am tabbing the keg...move over...

JSwan
May. 25, 2006, 07:53 PM
Must be really boring over on TOB.
By writing like this in DT I begin to loose my respect for this great horseman as well- seems like they all have to jump on the bandwagon of getting their names printed in the name of protecting the 'classical riding' rules.

How about just riding well...???

Because folks are thinking that Rollkur IS riding well. And perhaps enough people are disgusted by it they won't be silent anymore. I certainly want to vomit when I see what passes for dressage in GP these days.

And besides - if Rollkur is ok why isn't soring ok? Both produce "results" in competition yet are shortcuts that cause distress and discomfort to the horse. And soring has its defenders....

Podhajsky said dressage, done correctly, prolongs the sound and useful life of the horse. And certainly many of his horses died at an advanced age - still sound. And get this - he hunted with some of them. Guess dressage horses can actually work quite well on uneven terrain....

On the other hand, we have slc2 on this BB who in a previous thread, said 2nd level work on a horse with less than ideal conformation would render it unsound (I'm paraphrasing).

So who is right? The famous guy who rode the fat white ponies in haute ecole until they were old, or the folks who are running their unhappy horses into the ground in pursuit of - whatever they are pursuing????

Sabine
May. 25, 2006, 08:08 PM
Because folks are thinking that Rollkur IS riding well. And perhaps enough people are disgusted by it they won't be silent anymore. I certainly want to vomit when I see what passes for dressage in GP these days.

Somebody's getting their knickers in a twist...usually I am highly suspicious when people generalize to this degree...if you know anything- name riders and horses and give an anlytical reason about what it is that puts you off...


Swan]And besides - if Rollkur is ok why isn't soring ok? Both produce "results" in competition yet are shortcuts that cause distress and discomfort to the horse. And soring has its defenders....

never heard of soring...is that a new style of riding? Anything that is not standing in the pasture and grazing usually causes some distress or discomfort- if only temporary to the horse. It was not designed as a dressage horse- humans have made it that and bred it to be optimally suited.
If you are referring to active pain- there is nothing you have that can prove that conclusively.


Swan] Podhajsky said dressage, done correctly, prolongs the sound and useful life of the horse. And certainly many of his horses died at an advanced age - still sound. And get this - he hunted with some of them. Guess dressage horses can actually work quite well on uneven terrain....
He sure is right- and there is nothing to prove that Anky's retired Bonfire is in any worse shape than one of Podhajsky's old mounts...hell I ride my horses on trail and on the galopping track and they are fine- I just don't insist on a uphill dressage frame when I do that...:LOL- and I don't practice my Halfpasses in an unlevel ground either...

BornToRide
May. 25, 2006, 08:15 PM
Wow, 2 pages already :D

physical.energy
May. 25, 2006, 08:22 PM
Oh... It's not even warmed up yet, this one is just tacked up and walking to the mounting block:winkgrin: :winkgrin:

JSwan
May. 25, 2006, 09:20 PM
Sabine - I'm referring to the debate in horse/veterinary circles right now about Rollkur and its effect on the horse. There should be a debate - and the fact that "it gets results" or "I win" - is not reason enough to continue the practice.

The gist of my post is that many of y'all seems to think there is a difference between "competitive" and "classical" and "eventing" dressage. There was never supposed to be a difference. Distinctions were never supposed to be made - all horse benefit from tried and true methods of training with the goal of having a balanced, supple, obedient content horse - where that horse went from there would be different - but the goal was the same. In the hunt field, on a trail ride, in the dressage arena - whatever.


See any of that in the GP arena? I see a lot of really unhappy, poorly moving horses - and they're getting high marks. Which for some reason seems to be justification for continuing to utilize Rollkur. Which leads to my next analogy - that of soring. Soring gets results, too. And it still has its defenders. Just because it became a training aide that resulted in blue ribbons didn't make it right.

I see no reason to condone a practice whose main justification is that "Anky does it".

DressageGuy
May. 25, 2006, 09:24 PM
Sabine, you seem to miss the point, that, unless they can prove that it DOESN'T cause the horses pain and excessive distress, that it shouldn't be used. I still can not for the life of me figure out why well-known horsepeople continue to defend this crap. It's a travesty, and it makes a mockery out of those of use who try to ride our horses in a classical school of training. The only thing RK is good for is producing a tense, flamboyant horse that will win in the showring. This is NOT what we should be striving for.

egontoast
May. 25, 2006, 09:39 PM
Who will put the fun back in xenofun?

Horsedances
May. 25, 2006, 10:24 PM
Mike why don't you start to worry about this b*llshit on TOB.

***QUOTE***
Freestyles:
The judge should not be able to call out the movements you are about to perform before you do them.
***UNQUOTE***

Read the instructions for the judges :yes: :yes:

And yes it seems to get very boaring at the neighbours.

Theo

Touchstone Farm
May. 25, 2006, 10:54 PM
I think zwangsjacke is an excellent description for the method. From now on, instead of "rolkeur" or "hyperflexion," I'm going to refer to it as zwangsjacke. Kudos to the colonel for writing the column. He is one to adhere to the classical training of being fair to the horse and developing a partnership...not a slave mentality.

Horsedances
May. 25, 2006, 11:02 PM
I think zwangsjacke is an excellent description for the method. From now on, instead of "rolkeur" or "hyperflexion," I'm going to refer to it as zwangsjacke. Kudos to the colonel for writing the column. He is one to adhere to the classical training of being fair to the horse and developing a partnership...not a slave mentality.

But from the moment we decided to use the horse for dressage we decided to put him/her in a zwangsjacke :yes:

BornToRide
May. 25, 2006, 11:15 PM
Oh... It's not even warmed up yet, this one is just tacked up and walking to the mounting block:winkgrin: :winkgrin:

Ride right on.....:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

slc2
May. 25, 2006, 11:18 PM
yiou can say any sort of wierd twisted **** about me you want, swan, i ain't biting on this thread, LOL.

slc

DressageGuy
May. 25, 2006, 11:57 PM
Theo, is it simply because of your nationality that you continue to defend this training practice and those who are known to use it? Or do you actually believe it's beneficial for the horse and should be encouraged?

bigdreamer
May. 25, 2006, 11:58 PM
someone please tell me, how does one pronounce zwangsjacke? :D

BornToRide
May. 26, 2006, 12:19 AM
tzvangsyakke :D
The "a" is pronounced like in Car, "e" is short like in set

Horsedances
May. 26, 2006, 12:23 AM
Theo, is it simply because of your nationality that you continue to defend this training practice and those who are known to use it? Or do you actually believe it's beneficial for the horse and should be encouraged?

I don't defend anything. I told already hundred times that our horses are trained by Johan Hinneman, but it's not my habbit to start barking against a tree as long as I don't know anything about that tree. You probably have other standards.

sabryant
May. 26, 2006, 12:50 AM
Interesting...I've known of one big time, so called "classical" trainer in Germany who blinded a horse, in one eye, with his whip. I've known other, so called, "classical" trainers who've killed horses, dead, in their tracks on the end of a lounge tape because the side reins were jacked-up so short in the name of the poll the highest point. I've never heard of a single horse dying, being blinded, or hurt in any way because his poll was deep or his nose was between his knees. When I do, I will bitch about deep, RK, whatever.

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 12:57 AM
someone please tell me, how does one pronounce zwangsjacke? :D

I think swungsjuakke - I am German but it's hard to write the phonetics...(sp?)

lesyl
May. 26, 2006, 12:59 AM
I think swungsjuakke - I am German but it's hard to write the phonetics...(sp?)
or is it "swing jack"

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 01:15 AM
Sabine - I'm referring to the debate in horse/veterinary circles right now about Rollkur and its effect on the horse. There should be a debate - and the fact that "it gets results" or "I win" - is not reason enough to continue the practice.

OK- let's step it up then...first off if you are a vet- identify yourself- me thinks you're more like another version of xyz (don't want to hurt anyone's feelings around here...) or so...??? I work with quite a few vets and call a few my friends- they are predominantly treating dressage horses and one of them is a highly respected equine surgeon and fanatic dressage lover. He has a clinic and the best in our area go to him.
There is a long story I could share- but I don't think it would help this discussion- because most are not well informed about either:
a, competitive dressage and actively competing
b, RK and riding deep- how the top echelon does it
c, veterinary facts- info from a large vet clinic etc.

so this is like kids in a sandbox talking about flying to the moon...not much real info to be had...other than the same sour emotions.


swan]The gist of my post is that many of y'all seems to think there is a difference between "competitive" and "classical" and "eventing" dressage. There was never supposed to be a difference. Distinctions were never supposed to be made - all horse benefit from tried and true methods of training with the goal of having a balanced, supple, obedient content horse - where that horse went from there would be different - but the goal was the same. In the hunt field, on a trail ride, in the dressage arena - whatever.
The foundations of dressage are the same worldwide.
However in real practice there is a marked difference between competitive dressage, eventing dressage and whatever you mean by classical dressage??

There is a girl on UDBB who is from Portugal- she gave a great explanation of what classical dressage in her country is- it's VERY different then what you probably think it is- or your buddy Podhajski defined it as.
Eventing is naturally very different as the horse never gets to really develop the strong sitting skills because it has to survive the CC course the next day...so there...
Competitive dressage is usually driven by a timeclock. Most Pros- if they want to keep their clients- have to perform, just like any pro taking money for their services, within a certain timeframe. Our culture tends to shorten that timeframe all the time- it is the instant satisfaction syndrome- paired with the american tradition of thinking that nothing is impossible.



swan]
See any of that in the GP arena? I see a lot of really unhappy, poorly moving horses - and they're getting high marks. Which for some reason seems to be justification for continuing to utilize Rollkur. Which leads to my next analogy - that of soring. Soring gets results, too. And it still has its defenders. Just because it became a training aide that resulted in blue ribbons didn't make it right.

I see no reason to condone a practice whose main justification is that "Anky does it".

First off- there is noone in the american field that rides like Anky- so there is no reason to compare- she is a rarely gifted rider that has - probably largely due to the influence of her husband spearheaded this method. I am sure they also have gone through a learning curve.
Riding real RK is something most real riders don't know how to do. It's really hard to get a horse so curled and staying there without resistance. Some of us ride deep- consciously- at times BTV- for a variety of training reasons, but still in a honest, classical way... (no force, no gimmicks, no rigs, no beatings) keeping the training pyramid in mind.

I am one of those and I am offended by folks like you - who just pipe their opinion without grounds or explanation. I ride deep to get my horse over the back and remove resistances and allow best movement. THen I pick him up and ride in a very classical frame. I know many who do the same- including my vet- who is highly acclaimed.

So - why don't you think up a really meaningful post- with some good information and we can actually party- have some popcorn, beer etc..and a good conversation to boot!

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 01:25 AM
Sabine, you seem to miss the point, that, unless they can prove that it DOESN'T cause the horses pain and excessive distress, that it shouldn't be used. I still can not for the life of me figure out why well-known horsepeople continue to defend this crap. It's a travesty, and it makes a mockery out of those of use who try to ride our horses in a classical school of training. The only thing RK is good for is producing a tense, flamboyant horse that will win in the showring. This is NOT what we should be striving for.


dear DG- you seem like a very nice guy- but I have not intentions to prove anything to you- actually- I think you need to keep doing what you're doing and get to be a better rider and horseman that ventures outside of the area that you live in and see and meet and talk to some of those that you so severely attack here.
Once you do that- let us know what you have learned..sitting in the sandbox does not give you the ticket to throw rocks at those that spend a life time studying and riding 8 to 14 horses a day- with intelligence and committment definitely equivalent to what you have shown in your posts here so far....think about that!

bjrudq
May. 26, 2006, 01:29 AM
still the same old sh!t.

the knee jerk reaction to anyone who criticizes rollkur.

even by someone with the experience and talent of col. von ziegner. who said he doesn't ride? he might not anymore, he's quite elderly, but his book has excellent photos of him. he has always been a advocate for the horse, and has criticized german riders, and the direction of dressage generally, long before rollkur came along. it's just ridiculous to accuse him of being anti dutch.

but you would jettison anything he has to say. you should be examining it carefully, instead of automatically disagreeing with it.

even after that you may still be pro-rollkur, but geez, at least TRY to understand the point of view from an expert, who was training and riding at the highest level before any of us were even born, and whose clarity of thought has been exposed and expressed so beautifully in his writing and teaching.

bjrudq
May. 26, 2006, 01:35 AM
dear DG- you seem like a very nice guy- but I have not intentions to prove anything to you- actually- I think you need to keep doing what you're doing and get to be a better rider and horseman that ventures outside of the area that you live in and see and meet and talk to some of those that you so severely attack here.
Once you do that- let us know what you have learned..sitting in the sandbox does not give you the ticket to throw rocks at those that spend a life time studying and riding 8 to 14 horses a day- with intelligence and committment definitely equivalent to what you have shown in your posts here so far....think about that!

you might want to think about that before you throw rocks at von ziegner-who was riding, training, teaching, and writing long before you were born! unless you are quite old, his lifetime with horses has been longer than yours!

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 01:37 AM
brjd...- not sure who you are addressing- I have Ziegners book and read it at least 5 times- I love the dude- I love that he talks about riding deep- ...I am not defending RK- I am pointing out that you'all don't know $%@^$#@ about it- and you know- I am a believer in the rights of this great country- don't attack something you don't even understand or know how to do or really know how it's practiced...don't just jump to conclusions and sentence a whole lot of "???who ???"


it's such a stupid stance...it has no real foundation and that's why I was upset that Ziegner felt it necessary to comment on it...it is like getting on the band wagon with a lot of famous, well-respected people who are saying 'NO ' to Rollkur- yet - what do we know about it- who really practices it (other than Anky and her students...) and do they practice it on every horse?? who knows?? and how? are they doing what that terrible photo of Sjef showed?
I would like to know for sure before judging.

sabryant
May. 26, 2006, 01:49 AM
Nice job Sabine. Good posts!

To Dressage Guy...I don't think the horses are tense and flamboyant because of RK. Rather, they are being trained to "peak" for brilliance at such a competition as they have to compete in. Peak-ing a horse for competition is an "art" unto itself.

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 01:51 AM
:) :) sab- from sab

bjrudq
May. 26, 2006, 02:08 AM
i am just pointing out that it's not just inexperienced horse people who are spouting off about rollkur; well respected experts are giving their opinions too, and you seem to be discarding that.

if anyone says anything negative about it, the response is a lecture-"oh, you don't know what you are talking about becasue you haven't spent a lifetime training and riding 8-14 horses a day, like i have."

ok, i accept that.

but then col. v.z. comes along(and have you met him, ridden with him, and seen him teach? or do you just read his books?) and comments about rollkur and i'll bet HE has trained MANY more horses than you have, for much longer-so you can't accuse HIM of being a mere keyboard jockey, so you have to come up with something else.

and the best you can come up with is that he's taken a "stupid stance."

so anyone who disagrees with you is either inexperienced or stupid?

i don't think so.

btw i did respect your opinion, and the opinions of others who support rollkur-until it degenerated into these kinds of arguments.

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 02:21 AM
i am just pointing out that it's not just inexperienced horse people who are spouting off about rollkur; well respected experts are giving their opinions too, and you seem to be discarding that.

if anyone says anything negative about it, the response is a lecture-"oh, you don't know what you are talking about becasue you haven't spent a lifetime training and riding 8-14 horses a day, like i have."

ok, i accept that.

chill right here- I am not attacking anyone- there are a few folks here who attack anyone who is not perfectly conforming to Podhajsky/ or whatever they think is classical... I responded to their posts.
I think there are some well respected folks that warn of this system..yet even those folks don't really know what happens when Sjef trains..they are not allowed even near that facillity- as is noone else. You are talking about something that is not documented either in video or writing. It is a real secret. There are some old shots that Theresa took a long time ago- (it seems like a long time ago...LOL) but that's it.
I am not promoting this system - I am just saying...let's find a way to find out what it is before we condemn it. In my mind- we are making a ton of assumptions and falling into a dumb mass attack- without analyzing research facts and knowing more detail.





bjrudq]
but then col. v.z. comes along(and have you met him, ridden with him, and seen him teach? or do you just read his books?) and comments about rollkur and i'll bet HE has trained MANY more horses than you have, for much longer-so you can't accuse HIM of being a mere keyboard jockey, so you have to come up with something else.

and the best you can come up with is that he's taken a "stupid stance."

so anyone who disagrees with you is either inexperienced or stupid?

i don't think so.
NOOO- he's not the first- there is Birgit Popp, there is Balkenhol, the is Colonel Carde-...it seems to be the trend- and I hope you read enough and are informed enough to be aware of all this...I guess not...:(


bjrudq]btw i did respect your opinion, and the opinions of others who support rollkur-until it degenerated into these kinds of arguments.


don't say that- let's have beer and popcorn and agree to argue in a positive way- I am not putting you or your opinion down- I am just pointing out facts...all you have to do is be informed and share good info with the rest...it should be great!

P.R.E.
May. 26, 2006, 02:37 AM
Whe I was in school we use to say. If a girl breaks up with his boyfriend, he has to be mature and understand that they can still be friends. If the boy breaks up with the girlfriend, he is the worst sucker in the face of the earth and a pig.

From an independent observation poit of view this discussion is similar. If you are against Rollkur you are a great master, whose opinion needs to be taken in consideration and respected. If you are in favor of Rollkur, you are the worst kind of horse killer and you belong in a circus ring.

A very stupid idea comes to my mind, you think is possible that "some" of the people against Rollkur might not know what they are talking about and that "some" of the people in favor of Rollkur, might have a very eduacated opinion about it. The same thing, also the other way around.

DressageGuy
May. 26, 2006, 02:38 AM
To Dressage Guy...I don't think the horses are tense and flamboyant because of RK. Rather, they are being trained to "peak" for brilliance at such a competition as they have to compete in. Peak-ing a horse for competition is an "art" unto itself.


If they have to make their horses look like that for whatever reason, personally, I think that's sick. I've been watching several GP rides lately of international competitors, and very, very few of them demonstrate what I think most of us would consider "correct" dressage. How can ANYONE possibly defend the fact that most of these horses don't have a real extension in the trot? You can watch the videos and plainly see that the horse doesn't even track up from behind, but you see front legs flailing every which-way. And now we have piaffes being allowed to move "slightly forward". Why? Because it's too hard for them to train it correctly? Peak-ing a horse should NOT make it tense and ornery, which is what we see in many top-level competitions. Tails swishing constantly does NOT portray a relaxed, happy athlete to me. I've admitted several times to occasionally putting my horse somewhat deep. Before I worked for my last trainer, I was against even that, but discovered that it could be quite beneficial, and truly produced a HUGE improvement in Chase's way of going. He never balked, or seemed to object to it. Do I do it every ride? Hell no! As needed, on an occasional basis, fine, not a problem. But to crank a horses head down to its knees, uh-uh. And don't tell me they don't use force, I've seen the numerous pictures of beyond horizontal curbs, that ain't right. Anyway, just thought I'd weigh in again before bed.

Karoline
May. 26, 2006, 03:03 AM
http://www.xenophon-classical-riding.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=3&lang=en_EN

One more person whose opinion should hold some weight in the debate about "straightjacketing" a horse.

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 03:14 AM
wasn't aware of that- very interesting - what's KB's site called?
what's the deal and how far is this supposed to go? create local internet teaching sites?

has anyone ever read the old books of de Kerbrecht, L'Hotte, etc- the old french system...? We should have a whole teaching system on - line-...but it should not make money- just be good for people who want to learn...:( ;(

JSwan
May. 26, 2006, 06:53 AM
Actually - Sabine - I don't have a problem with riding deep - as part of an educated horseman using different tools - with educated hands - to produce the desired effect.

Thanks for the "education" about the differences that arise in different disciplines that use dressage. Wow. Never thought of it all by myself.

What I have a problem with is folks using the justification "Anky does it". And when people from proven backgrounds in training question it - they are dismissed as idiots.

I question this method because I am not convinced it causes no harm to the horse. And I really have problems with those who use the "Anky/Bonfire" example. Come up with a better reason.

Sorry to burst your bubble - but there are those of us in this world who have opinions on noveau training methods that may not conform to yours - and those people come from all walks of life. You may see yourself and the Rollkur adherents as innovators - I'm not convinced. And it seems, by the number of threads and articles and discussions about this method - that I'm not the only one.

Besides - when did this turn into a discussion of your riding ability and style? Unless I'm mistaken - the thread is about Rollkur - not about how Sabine uses Rollkur.



(I just added another reason why I quit dressage as a sport - and it isn't Rollkur)

sm
May. 26, 2006, 08:50 AM
in regards to Ziegner:

post 23 "By writing like this in DT I begin to loose my respect for this great horseman as well- seems like they all have to jump on the bandwagon of getting their names printed in the name of protecting the 'classical riding' rules."

post 49 "it's such a stupid stance...it has no real foundation and that's why I was upset that Ziegner felt it necessary to comment on it...it is like getting on the band wagon with a lot of famous, well-respected people who are saying 'NO ' to Rollkur"

I don't think he is "getting on the bandwagon," I think he never got off the original bandwagon. Ziegner is involved for a long while and not just eager to get his name in press. He took an active strong position against and is a founding member: http://www.xenophon-classical-riding.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7&Itemid=4&lang=en_EN and also http://www.xenophon-classical-riding.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11&Itemid=9&lang=en_EN

Founding members against RK:
Hans-Heinrich Isenbart (Kirchlinteln/GER)
Christine Stückelberger (Bern/SUI)
Klaus, Judith and Annabel Balkenhol (Rosendahl/GER)
Dr. Gerhard Heuschmann (Warendorf/GER)
Anja Beran (Bidingen/GER)
Prof. Dr. Kurt Mrkwicka (Wien/AUS)
Oberst a.D. Kurd Albrecht v. Ziegner (Mechtersen/GER)
Ingrid Klimke (Münster/GER)
PD Dr. Volkmar Nüssler (Bidingen/GER)
Dr. Joachim Bösche (Braunschweig/GER)
Stefanie Martens (München/GER)
Isabella Sonntag (Schondorf/GER)
Dr. Astrid von Velsen-Zerweck (Warendorf/GER)

I think to agree to be interviewed by DT is not out of line for a professional or a reason to lose respect for a great horsemen -- at least he has his opinion and takes a stand. No waffling, no politican's double-talk on the subject to escape negative reactions.

Moll
May. 26, 2006, 09:09 AM
I've never heard of a single horse dying, being blinded, or hurt in any way because his poll was deep or his nose was between his knees. When I do, I will bitch about deep, RK, whatever.

Fact: a horse of AvG/SJ:s was sold and died in the pasture shortly afterwards. The owners sued. SJ chose to settle out of court instead of proving in court that the training had nothing to do with the horse's death. And keep in mind this is Europe, where the courts do not award huge punitive damages as in the US, so that is no reason to avoid a court case at all costs.

Another GP horse trained by them also died suddenly of a heart attack. How many horses die of heart attacks on average? How many should, statistically, do so out of, say ten international horses competing at GP level? Is 20% normal?

So as not to forget what RK looks like:

http://sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/1020089b.jpg

sm
May. 26, 2006, 09:13 AM
from post 50: "Peak-ing a horse for competition is an "art" unto itself."

Yes, this is exactly why there is talk of videoing the warm-up. Or perhaps grading riders on the warm-up as well as the test.

slc2
May. 26, 2006, 09:13 AM
moll, that is ridiculous and it is an insane and slanderous thing to say, let alone actionable. you are accusing anky van grunsven of killing that horse, here, in public. are you saying that going around with its chin in caused this horse to have an aneurism?

aneurisms are a congenital weakness in an artery that horses are born with. my friend's horse, pampered, beloved and never rollkured, dropped over dead in HIS pasture too. aneurism. just like the other horse. and what you said about the case itself was an utter and total lie. check your facts. in fact, quite a few horses get aneurisms and drop over dead. my friend was riding an old show hunter in a riding lesson and it fell down dead. it had never been rolllkured in its life. are you going to accuse that woman of killing THAT horse too?

Moll
May. 26, 2006, 09:18 AM
moll, that is ridiculous and it is an insane and slanderous thing to say, let alone actionable. you are accusing anky van grunsven of killing that horse, here, in public.


Nope, I'm asking questions, none of which are actionable: you're jumping to conclusions. I just wondered if anyone had seen statistics on how many horses die of heart attacks in general.

But sure, my facts about the case may be wrong as I read it some years ago somewhere. Did the owners not sue? Was the case not settled out of court?

Moll
May. 26, 2006, 09:22 AM
One source as to the lawsuit:

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/happen/2003/november.html

Moll
May. 26, 2006, 09:24 AM
Oh, and the settlement:

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/happen/2004/november.html

Is an aneurysm the same thing as cardiac arrest?

sm
May. 26, 2006, 09:26 AM
not to short circuit the lawsuit discussion, but for me what's interesting is we start out excelling in harmony between horse and rider, the horse's return to freedom under saddle --- and now we are simply satisified with practices that aren't proven to kill a horse: Originally Posted by sabryant "I've never heard of a single horse dying, being blinded, or hurt in any way because his poll was deep or his nose was between his knees. When I do, I will bitch about deep, RK, whatever."

In regards to the lawsuit link, for me it's interesting how QUICKLY it was settled, six hours: "After a 6-hour discussion in court two weeks ago, a settlement has been reached between both parties. "It's a good solution with no stress for further lawsuits and expensive lawyers," Van Grunsven stated afterwards."

slc2
May. 26, 2006, 09:34 AM
"We" don't have any idea of the sort. Speak for yourself.

slc2
May. 26, 2006, 09:35 AM
they did not sue. it was not a suit. they were given the opportunity to choose another horse, and didn't like any of the ones in the barn, so took it to court, but it was not a suit, it is not called that.

sm
May. 26, 2006, 09:37 AM
slc, would that be the first we: "we start out excelling in harmony between horse and rider" or the second we, "now we are simply satisified with practices that aren't proven to kill a horse."

Just kidding! Still an interesting point I think...

JSwan
May. 26, 2006, 09:39 AM
Uh - if anything is taken to Court it is a lawsuit. It may be resolved through a judgment, or settlement, or by arbitration. Even in Europe.

And if it's written - it's libel. Not slander. Slander is spoken.

Nothing Moll wrote is libelous.


Continue.....

egontoast
May. 26, 2006, 09:43 AM
Is an aneurysm the same thing as cardiac arrest?

NO.

Continue...
if you must.

Moll
May. 26, 2006, 09:43 AM
they did not sue. it was not a suit. they were given the opportunity to choose another horse, and didn't like any of the ones in the barn, so took it to court, but it was not a suit, it is not called that.

What is it called? Court-taking? English is only my third language so I'm obviously not quite familiar with the legal jargon ;)

But I didn't mean to say I can't understand avoiding court cases. After all, they are always a strain. I just meant that as you are 100% certain that your training methods don't harm the horse a court case would be an excellent opportunity to prove it and quieten any future criticism.

And avoiding court cases is sometimes a pattern of behaviour (sorry for digging this ole link up, you can thank SLC) :lol:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&case=/data2/circs/6th/006122.html

DocHF
May. 26, 2006, 10:38 AM
zwangjacke?

sounds like some sort of masturbation to me.
judging by this thread, mental masturbation.
something best done in private.
so I'll leave you guyz alone.

claire
May. 26, 2006, 10:46 AM
Sabine, I have to say, I am very disappointed and offended by your remarks. I find the following assumptions on your part rude and not at all helpful to a CIVIL discussion that COULD be interesting to have. :no:



... I am not defending RK-I am pointing out that you'all don't know $%@^$#@ about it-



There is a long story I could share- but I don't think it would help this discussion- because most are not well informed about either:
a, competitive dressage and actively competing
b, RK and riding deep- how the top echelon does it
c, veterinary facts- info from a large vet clinic etc.

I think it comes off as very silly indeed to ASS-ume that no one on this BB could understand your "story" and explanation of RK with respect to the vet facts from a large clinic/how the top "echelon" do RK/competitive dressage.

And to further state that "You'all don't know $%@^$#@ about it" is at best naive...:confused:

I have always enjoyed your posts and information and viewpoints you bring to the discussion...


OK, in the hopes of a civil discussion :D

Back to the original topic:



First off- there is noone in the american field that rides like Anky- so there is no reason to compare- she is a rarely gifted rider that has - probably largely due to the influence of her husband spearheaded this method. I am sure they also have gone through a learning curve.
Riding real RK is something most real riders don't know how to do.


Looking at the list of, admittedly, "Gifted" riders/trainers sm listed in post#59...I wonder why if RK is such a competitively advantagous method-WHY aren't they using it? Surely, it stretches the imagination to believe that ONLY a very certain few are capable of using RK?

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 11:23 AM
Actually - Sabine - I don't have a problem with riding deep - as part of an educated horseman using different tools - with educated hands - to produce the desired effect.

Thanks for the "education" about the differences that arise in different disciplines that use dressage. Wow. Never thought of it all by myself.

What I have a problem with is folks using the justification "Anky does it". And when people from proven backgrounds in training question it - they are dismissed as idiots.

I question this method because I am not convinced it causes no harm to the horse. And I really have problems with those who use the "Anky/Bonfire" example. Come up with a better reason.

Sorry to burst your bubble - but there are those of us in this world who have opinions on noveau training methods that may not conform to yours - and those people come from all walks of life. You may see yourself and the Rollkur adherents as innovators - I'm not convinced. And it seems, by the number of threads and articles and discussions about this method - that I'm not the only one.

Besides - when did this turn into a discussion of your riding ability and style? Unless I'm mistaken - the thread is about Rollkur - not about how Sabine uses Rollkur.



(I just added another reason why I quit dressage as a sport - and it isn't Rollkur)

Ms Swan- it is not about my RK or anything like that- it's about RK as a training method and my question to you- since you are so seriously condemning it:
What do you factually know about it?
what makes you so sure that you know everything in detail, how it's used and applied and implemented?
what makes you so qualified to judge people who use a method that is nowhere documented, explained or analyzed?

this is my beef with your statements- nothing else.
Personally I don't ride RK- because I don't know how to do it- how to apply it what to do when certain things happen. I don't have the experience because I have not learned the mechanics of it. All I could do - is try to copy what can be observed in taped warmups and competition rides. That is not enough of a logical foundation for me to use this method confidently.

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 11:28 AM
Sabine, I have to say, I am very disappointed and offended by your remarks. I find the following assumptions on your part rude and not at all helpful to a CIVIL discussion that COULD be interesting to have. :no:





I think it comes off as very silly indeed to ASS-ume that no one on this BB could understand your "story" and explanation of RK with respect to the vet facts from a large clinic/how the top "echelon" do RK/competitive dressage.

And to further state that "You'all don't know $%@^$#@ about it" is at best naive...:confused:

I have always enjoyed your posts and information and viewpoints you bring to the discussion...


OK, in the hopes of a civil discussion :D

Back to the original topic:




Looking at the list of, admittedly, "Gifted" riders/trainers sm listed in post#59...I wonder why if RK is such a competitively advantagous method-WHY aren't they using it? Surely, it stretches the imagination to believe that ONLY a very certain few are capable of using RK?

Hello Claire,
since you seem to know a lot about it, please explain to me what large vet clinics say or find when examining dressage horses? Do you have a good contact or information available from research institutes or vet universities?

I would love to know about it.

Also if you know how competitors like Anky and Isabel train their horses in detail- like a methodology- I would very much appreciate it if you could share.

You are so right - this discussion would be very interesting if someone could share facts that would add NEW information.

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 11:42 AM
two fun facts left out:

just read the DT article by Ziegner and he mentions that this direction of 'rollkuring' the horse started in the '50s. Interesting....it wasn't all Sjef's doing then...anyone know anything about that?

Also in the same issue of DT, Truppa, one of the O judges sitting in that very FEI meeting explains, that the FEI will have some stepped up steward function at its shows to monitor signs of stress and discomfort in the warm-up ring.

Seems to me like a sensible solution...what can they do more? It seems unrealistic to dictate to professionals how they have to train their horses. How could they ever enforce it?

P.R.E.
May. 26, 2006, 11:49 AM
Uh - if anything is taken to Court it is a lawsuit. It may be resolved through a judgment, or settlement, or by arbitration. Even in Europe.

And if it's written - it's libel. Not slander. Slander is spoken.

Nothing Moll wrote is libelous.


Continue.....

ARBITRATION IS NOT A LAWSUIT!!! Guys don't try to manipulate the law, the law in the Netherlands in not the same that in the US, is a complete different system. Nevertheless Arbitration can be performed in a court and not be a lawsuit.

THEY WERE NOT CLAIMING THAT ANKY KILLED THE HORSE, don't manipulate what the article says. They were claiming that they paid for a horse and that the horse was not delivered in the conditions stipulated by the contract, that there was information that was not released and that finally they consider the product not delivered. If you are against Rollkur, there are enough arguments you can use without trying to manipulate a dispiute am turning someone in t a horse killer.

claire
May. 26, 2006, 11:51 AM
Hello Claire,
since you seem to know a lot about it, please explain to me what large vet clinics say or find when examining dressage horses? Do you have a good contact or information available from research institutes or vet universities?

I would love to know about it.

Also if you know how competitors like Anky and Isabel train their horses in detail- like a methodology- I would very much appreciate it if you could share.

You are so right - this discussion would be very interesting if someone could share facts that would add NEW information.

Sabine, I think you possibly mis-read my post? :confused:
I was referring to YOUR statement that YOU had information (a "story") to do with RK /vets at a large clinic/how the top "echelon" trains RK...
BUT, that YOU could not share it with this BB because

you'all don't know $%@^#@ about it

THAT is what disappointed me about your remarks!

And yes, I agree that this could be a very interesting discussion if points of view and information could be exchanged in a CIVIL manner without ASSUMING it is beyond the capabilities of the readers of this BB to understand!

FWIW, I would think everyone would be interested in your story if you would care to share! :)

sm
May. 26, 2006, 11:53 AM
post#77: "just read the DT article by Ziegner and he mentions that this direction of 'rollkuring' the horse started in the '50s. Interesting....it wasn't all Sjef's doing then...anyone know anything about that?"

Yes, there is nothing new or revoluntonary about RK, it's been around for eons and the classical school has always rejected it. Some would RK at a stand only but never with a horse moving (no walk, trot, etc). I think the key word is "this DIRECTION of 'rollkuring' the horse started in the '50s," -- rather than the technique just being invented in the 50s.

JSwan
May. 26, 2006, 12:02 PM
That chip on your shoulder must really be hard to carry around, Sabine. Exactly what sort of qualifications to you expect people to have in order to critize Rollkur, hmmm? It's not enough that people who were accomplished horsemen when you were pooping in your diapers question it? Must we all be Sabine clones to comment? That's not required in other forums - why this one?

I don't have any problem with different methods, in educated hands, being used to train a horse as part of a horseman's toolbox. There are many roads to Rome.

Actually - after looking at the picture of "Rollkur" that another poster displayed I can finally understand why so many dressage riders never school on uneven terrain. If that's the way dressage horses are being ridden - yep - stay in the arena or your horse is going to trip and fall.

There is a dispute as to whether or not Rollkur - as a method and as an end result - is legitimate. And if I hear the name Anky used again to justify Rollkur - I'll puke. Nothing wrong with dressage supporters weighing in on this issue - especially since it's being taken up at higher levels. Oh - if you don't mind, that is.



PRE - I am not trying to manipulate anything regarding the law at all. I am familiar with Dutch law. I did not read the details of that particular case - because it was not relevant to what I was responding to. Arbitration can be handled privately or through the judicial system in various permutations - which again are not relevant to my post. The facts of that case, again, were not relevant to what I was responding to. I could care less.

canyonoak
May. 26, 2006, 12:05 PM
Col. von Ziegner is one of the founding members of Xenophon, so he is not just now 'joining in' to any discussion. He is one of the people who started this entire hullabaloo, and his opinion is quite predictable.

A better question for him and his generation might be-- how come all of you only become horsmen when you stop competing?

because during your heyday(s), it was common to see bloody sides, bloody mouths, excessive sweat and horses peeing all over themselves at the exciting prospect of having harmony time in the schooling arena.

And please--note that in NO way am I suggesting that Col. von Ziegner himself approved or used any of the above practices.

But they were definitely common.

From "O" Judge Truppa's article in the same issue of DT:

<< All the reports presented by the veterinarians in Lausanne (FEI Workshop on Rollkur) highlighted the fact that there was, at present stage,
no scientific evidence of any harm made to horses that were ridden in hyperflexion (new term originated in that meeting) if done by experienced people and not for a long time.
Not one of the people present, but who are now taking controversial attitudes toward the FEI on this issue, made any objection to the above statement.>>

I just want to add here that Sjef Janssen refers to one part of his schooling as Deep Round Low, made clear that it is merely one technique among many, and that he feels that the basis for his training program is speed control.

Which is also known as forward-back, uncoiling the spring and, 'many transitions within the gait and between gaits'.

Aka gymnasticizing the horse.

cheers,

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 12:12 PM
Sabine, I think you possibly mis-read my post? :confused:
I was referring to YOUR statement that YOU had information (a "story") to do with RK /vets at a large clinic/how the top "echelon" trains RK...
BUT, that YOU could not share it with this BB because


THAT is what disappointed me about your remarks!

And yes, I agree that this could be a very interesting discussion if points of view and information could be exchanged in a CIVIL manner without ASSUMING it is beyond the capabilities of the readers of this BB to understand!

FWIW, I would think everyone would be interested in your story if you would care to share! :)


What I was told is that some clinics are beginning to find sore spots in young dressage horses necks, around 6/7 for which noone has an explanation- as the specific horses are not rollkured- but ridden with a strong classical frame.
The only explanation- and this is where the thinking leans to is, that the newer bred dressage horses have such exceptional movement, that keeping the balance, while moving at that quality - puts strain on the neck....

I thought this interesting because everyone seems to think that RK horses have sore necks.

canyonoak
May. 26, 2006, 12:13 PM
Hey, as long as we are all having a swell time inventing names for things,
how about

verriegelter zurück Schwanansatz

which we can call Swannie for short.

FWIW, I typed in "locked back swan neck"

into a computer translator to get the above.

sorry, just could not resist.

mzpeepers
May. 26, 2006, 12:20 PM
I think there are some well respected folks that warn of this system..yet even those folks don't really know what happens when Sjef trains..they are not allowed even near that facillity- as is noone else. You are talking about something that is not documented either in video or writing. It is a real secret

I'm sorry but THAT is something that would make anyone at least suspicious. Why does it have to be done behind closed doors in such a secretive way?
Since apparently one has to be "in the loop" to be allowed to even discuss it, and since apparently none is in the loop (not even you Sabine) because the training is done in secret, why in the heck are we even talking about it?

sm
May. 26, 2006, 12:26 PM
post 83: "What I was told is that some clinics are beginning to find sore spots in young dressage horses necks, around 6/7 for which noone has an explanation- as the specific horses are not rollkured- but ridden with a strong classical frame.

The only explanation- and this is where the thinking leans to is, that the newer bred dressage horses have such exceptional movement, that keeping the balance, while moving at that quality - puts strain on the neck...."


Oh, I always heard it in relation to pushing a youngster too fast to develop into a star, not in relation to a particular school's exercises. Or the horse's quality of movement. Like KBs write-up in COTH, I think the COTH article was a summary of the usdf convention last fall -- way too many international quality horses are ruined by pushing them too hard too soon, not allowing flexibility in the neck for the young ones to develop gradually.

slc2
May. 26, 2006, 12:26 PM
That is an absolute lie. I was even invited there to sit and watch all day for nothing. What a load of crap.

slc

Horsedances
May. 26, 2006, 12:35 PM
Col. von Ziegner is one of the founding members of Xenophon, so he is not just now 'joining in' to any discussion. He is one of the people who started this entire hullabaloo, and his opinion is quite predictable.

A better question for him and his generation might be-- how come all of you only become horsmen when you stop competing?

because during your heyday(s), it was common to see bloody sides, bloody mouths, excessive sweat and horses peeing all over themselves at the exciting prospect of having harmony time in the schooling arena.

And please--note that in NO way am I suggesting that Col. von Ziegner himself approved or used any of the above practices.

But they were definitely common.

From "O" Judge Truppa's article in the same issue of DT:

<< All the reports presented by the veterinarians in Lausanne (FEI Workshop on Rollkur) highlighted the fact that there was, at present stage,
no scientific evidence of any harm made to horses that were ridden in hyperflexion (new term originated in that meeting) if done by experienced people and not for a long time.
Not one of the people present, but who are now taking controversial attitudes toward the FEI on this issue, made any objection to the above statement.>>

I just want to add here that Sjef Janssen refers to one part of his schooling as Deep Round Low, made clear that it is merely one technique among many, and that he feels that the basis for his training program is speed control.

Which is also known as forward-back, uncoiling the spring and, 'many transitions within the gait and between gaits'.

Aka gymnasticizing the horse.

cheers,

Forget it Canyonoak, these people don't want to listen. Their minds have been made up, and nobody is going to change this.

Just to add :

It's so funny to notice that everybody on the other side of this world knows exactly how the courtcase/settlement between A&S and Van Aalderen about Idool went. :confused:

Hear say, guessing etc...

http://www.horsedances.net/InMemory.htm

sm
May. 26, 2006, 12:43 PM
slc, I don't know if in your post#87 you're responding to my post but the article title/author is "Balkenhol Espouses Patience Throughout USDF Symposium / Lita Dove" http://chronofhorse.com/index.php?cat=40311030495963&nav=Top&z_get_Article_ID=102732323545440&search_type=Full&keywords=balkenhol&Full_Category_ID=100204042587690 January 6, 2006 Issue excerpt beginning with the FIRST TWO PARAGRAPHS to go to my point:

****

Balkenhol then pointed out that in Germany, he sees 20 to 30 such wonderful young horses in a year--but he only sees two to three still going by the time they're 7. Such is the toll of incorrect work, or overwork.

This theme--that great horses are every day being destroyed through overwork, lack of time and preparation--was to come up throughout the symposium.

"Let The Neck Out More."

Next into the arena were two young horses: David Wightman brought Brigadier and Laurie Doyle brought Grand Makana. Doyle's horse was the reserve champion 5-year-old at the Markel/USEF Young Horse Championships in Kentucky, where Wightman's horse placed third and won the award as the top-placed U.S.-bred horse.

And the themes of the next two days started right here: "Let the neck out."

"Let the neck out more."

"The horse has to move from behind, be loose in its body, not rigid or tense."

"Take the time."

"Let the horse walk and get used to the surroundings. They are prey creatures, and we're asking them to listen to us, not their instincts, so they have to have a reason to trust us."

"The horse must be relaxed enough, clear enough in its mind, to be able to focus on the rider. In other words, the rider must be 'for the horse.' All interactions with a horse must consider and respect the horse's own viewpoint."

While the young horses settled, Balkenhol said he was in favor of young horses doing cross-training and not concentrating on any specific discipline. He also advocated turn-out time, lots of walks outside, hills if possible, and arena time gradually increasing only as the horse's strength and schooling develops.

While the auditors watched Steffen Peters ride the truly eye-popping young stallion San Rubin, Balkenhol observed, "The horse has no idea how much he cost," which received appreciative claps and laughter.

But, he continued seriously, there is no excuse ever to demand too much of a horse too soon, merely because the horse offers such promise with ease. So when San Rubin "offered" passage, Balkenhol said, "That's enough. Let it be his idea, and stop before he can ever think of it as work."

Again and again, no matter the age of the horse, Balkenhol stressed that he does not believe in "working through the tension."

He stressed, "Relaxation and focus are the only way to produce correct work."

Balkenhol suggested that riders who encounter problems with tension should stop, do exercises to regain the focus and relaxation, and then go on.

As Hilda Gurney worked her home-bred Luminence (by Leonidas), Balkenhol, appreciating the horse's willingness to work, remarked that he "would not be surprised to see this horse and rider back in the ring at Grand Prix," an observation that naturally drew applause.

The first day ended with Sue Blinks riding the magnificent Robin Hood. "This is truly a dancing horse," said Balkenhol as the horse moved with enormous power, elasticity and natural engagement.

This pair proved to be an illustration of the techniques used to get a horse to relax and focus. Using forward-back in trot, letting the horse go forward and then asking him to engage and collect for a few strides, Blinks gradually dispelled any tension without disturbing his basic rhythm. And in a while, the horse produced absolutely breathtaking gaits and movements. He is 7 and was allowed to produce more passage than the younger San Rubin.


***

doccer
May. 26, 2006, 12:47 PM
Competitive dressage is usually driven by a timeclock. Most Pros- if they want to keep their clients- have to perform, just like any pro taking money for their services, within a certain timeframe. Our culture tends to shorten that timeframe all the time- it is the instant satisfaction syndrome- paired with the american tradition of thinking that nothing is impossible.

-- That's no excuse to rush through training, excuses get you nowhere--

Riding real RK is something most real riders don't know how to do. It's really hard to get a horse so curled and staying there without resistance. Some of us ride deep- consciously- at times BTV- for a variety of training reasons, but still in a honest, classical way... (no force, no gimmicks, no rigs, no beatings) keeping the training pyramid in mind.

-- No Force? There may not be resistance because the horse is naturally trying to please you! If you asked horse to balance on one foot while grabbing his tail with his teeth, he'd do that too .... no resistance. Just because you CAN train/ask a horse to do something and he does it, doesn't make it right.

I am one of those and I am offended by folks like you

--Well, i'm offended by you at the moment..... we're even ;)

- who just pipe their opinion without grounds or explanation. I ride deep to get my horse over the back and remove resistances and allow best movement. THen I pick him up and ride in a very classical frame. I know many who do the same- including my vet- who is highly acclaimed.

-- A means to an end, the 'straightjacket' is the complete opposite of what dressage is supposed to be. I see what you're getting at.... 'straighjacket' is meant to hyperflex *shudder* and then once you put the horse back in a classical frame, he's relaxed and moving. Why put your horse thru that? (i think it's comparable to doing a leg-yield with the haunches leading.... only because it'll seem easier for the horse to do a correct leg yield after that.) Not fair to horsey, and takes advantage of his good nature.... which, in any relationship, won't be for long if you continue to take advantage.

So - why don't you think up a really meaningful post- with some good information and we can actually party- have some popcorn, beer etc..and a good conversation to boot!

-- I love beer and popcorn!! :) And i love a good debate, where you can respect another person's viewpoints, without believing them yourself. We'll never agree on this :)

Daydream Believer
May. 26, 2006, 01:19 PM
post 83: "What I was told is that some clinics are beginning to find sore spots in young dressage horses necks, around 6/7 for which noone has an explanation- as the specific horses are not rollkured- but ridden with a strong classical frame.

The only explanation- and this is where the thinking leans to is, that the newer bred dressage horses have such exceptional movement, that keeping the balance, while moving at that quality - puts strain on the neck...."


Oh, I always heard it in relation to pushing a youngster too fast to develop into a star, not in relation to a particular school's exercises. Or the horse's quality of movement. Like KBs write-up in COTH, I think the COTH article was a summary of the usdf convention last fall -- way too many international quality horses are ruined by pushing them too hard too soon, not allowing flexibility in the neck for the young ones to develop gradually.

Agreed and you have to keep in mind that a horse's spine and vertebrae do not mature until 6 or 7 at the earliest. So asking horses to carry themselves that young in a frame is bound to cause issues. I understand the auction horses are started young and really pushed into a showier frame than they might really be ready for to prepare for the auction also. It seems like more and more young dressage horses are started at 2 and showing a 3 or 4 and in the young horse classes at 5 and 6. Now there is a futurity for 4 year olds, I think we will see babies pushed even faster...especially those very talented ones you mention.

Kareen
May. 26, 2006, 01:22 PM
So why again did you say everybody has turned all angry again within less than 1 page of posting?
It's mean and disgusting to accuse someone like Colonel v. Ziegner of jumping on some bandwaggon for cheap self-promo reasons. First of all this is totally not his style and far underneath him. And even if he was one of these self-promo-heroes don't you think if his incentive was to get his face out in the press he would have spoken up publicly about half a year ago (or even 12 years ago when it was Nicole Uphoff who was being confronted with people who disagreed with what she did?
It doesn't make any sense to write that article just now except if you wanted the necessary process of reflection and discussion to stay alive and lead to some effective conclusions instead of being shut down by some who don't want to hear about it before it has even reached the point where it will make some FEI heads think for real.

bjrudq
May. 26, 2006, 01:50 PM
von ziegner is above reproach.

that DOES NOT mean you have to agree with him or follow his teachings; but to dismiss his opinion with a wave of the hand, as you do lower level riders (or even klaus balkonol)is dumbfounding.

and to claim that he became a horseman only after he quit riding, and that he rode during an era of bloody mouths and sides(oh, but you're NOT accusing him...) is not only ignorant but mean spirited, and adds nothing to the discussion.

BornToRide
May. 26, 2006, 01:56 PM
So what do you think - how many here think they know more than a bunch of certified veterinarians at a convention? A number? Any number?? Ballpark figure perhaps??......:D

sm
May. 26, 2006, 02:10 PM
"So what do you think - how many here think they know more than a bunch of certified veterinarians at a convention? A number? Any number?? Ballpark figure perhaps??..."

There are a number of vets that don't agree with RK as well. How many vets were at the convention, not an overwhelming majority, but I don't remember the head count.

doccer
May. 26, 2006, 02:28 PM
So what do you think - how many here think they know more than a bunch of certified veterinarians at a convention? A number? Any number?? Ballpark figure perhaps??......:D

:D I see your point. But, there are experts on both sides of this fence. Seeing this training gadget (ie: RollKur) feels wrong. I fear for 'classical dressage' if this is what training is coming to.... My aspirations do not include rollkur, yet they do include PSG. Who am i to idolize now? ;) lol

Kareen
May. 26, 2006, 02:39 PM
Oh I forgot they did have some vets at the FEI symposium where they invented the 'Hyperflexion' term. I would seriously suggest for a poll amongst vets who are actually practising I seriously think the vote would be quite overwhelming against the practise of cramming horses into such frames over an extended period of time.
Seriously I know of so many colleagues who clearly say they consider it detrimental. I have heard from a few who actually said it wasn't proven to be so yet I have so far not heard any colleagues who thought it was anyhow beneficial to the horse's physique. So why on earth even think about whether it is classical or not when there are so many voices against it and it has nowhere been proven to be harmless?

Sabine
May. 26, 2006, 02:43 PM
I'm sorry but THAT is something that would make anyone at least suspicious. Why does it have to be done behind closed doors in such a secretive way?
Since apparently one has to be "in the loop" to be allowed to even discuss it, and since apparently none is in the loop (not even you Sabine) because the training is done in secret, why in the heck are we even talking about it?


You made my point- I agree...100%.

JSwan
May. 26, 2006, 02:52 PM
"why in the heck are we even talking about it?"


Because this is a discussion board - except, apparantly, the dressage forum. There, only a select few have the decoder ring that unlocks the secrets of dressage. The rest of us mendicants will have to get by calling it flatwork or something.

But from what I have been exposed through on this thread, sadly, every reason I left dressage as a discipline has been validated. Again.

Hope the straitjacketrollkur crap gets straightened out. No pun intended.

mzpeepers
May. 26, 2006, 03:33 PM
Because this is a discussion board - except, apparantly, the dressage forum. There, only a select few have the decoder ring that unlocks the secrets of dressage. The rest of us mendicants will have to get by calling it flatwork or something.


JSwan my point is that, when it comes to Rollkur, nobody has the decoder ring! Until we have true information rather than just somebody's "hearsay", how can we seriously discuss it?
Some say "it looks bad". Agreed, it does. Some say "it's bad for the horse". Don't know about that yet as it hasn't been proven one way ot another. Some say "I do it and the heck with you because you don't know what you're talking about and are wasting my time". I don't particulary care about that answer either but it has been made quite clear that those who use it don't care to share the "secret".
All I know is that every time the subject comes up we have these endless threads in which perfectly rational and mosly pleasant people become bitchy bloodthirsty monsters ready to pounce on whoever dares to question their convictions, and that happens on both sides of the fence and sometimes even on top of the fence. Which brings me to my original question: Why the heck do we keep bringing this up"?

JSwan
May. 26, 2006, 03:46 PM
J Which brings me to my original question: Why the heck do we keep bringing this up"?

Search me. We're gluttons for punishment? That's as good an answer as any.

I don't have the decoder ring either. Can't think where I've left it....

Actually - I have a confession. When I visit these types of threads I get this picture in my head of hens with their feathers ruffled clucking about. Lots of pretentious hens, to boot.

And I ain't one of the hens (though I admit to being one in other threads - but not a pretentious one)

:-)

DressageGuy
May. 26, 2006, 03:47 PM
I think the defacto question should be, does it do anything to improve the horses' natural way of going? The answer: a resounding NO. Watch any international GP competition, and you'll see what I mean. The quality of the work, in many cases, has gone so far downhill, I don't even consider it true dressage anymore.

mzpeepers
May. 26, 2006, 03:48 PM
I don't have the decoder ring either. Can't think where I've left it....

Must be at the shop for repairs, next to my crystal ball. Been waiting for the lazy bum repairman to fix the darn thing for YEARS! :winkgrin:

JSwan
May. 26, 2006, 03:57 PM
But DressageGuy -if anyone other than Sabine or slc says that it doesn't improve the horses way of going - we get the "Anky does it" answer, or "we don't ride at high enough a level to appreciate Rollku" or this one - which is a new one on me - about modern horses being different. Geez - until the 50's most farms still used horses, folks. "Modern" is relative.

Modern sporthorses haven't evolved that much - except perhaps the price tag and number of consonants in their names - and the pretentious attitude of the riders....

sm
May. 26, 2006, 04:07 PM
J Swan, you left out The-Other-Guy-Is-Worse defense: usually someone posts a "supposedly classical" rider who blinds horses, leaves bloody sides, etc. Implying RK is ok because the other guy's training is worse. Ignoring at the same time the facts that, (1) this supposed abuse is never documented or no one turns this weirdo rider in, which says very little for the people who supposedly witness this, and (2) there's the apparant oversight that it is not a method any School condones as proper (as opposed to RK) :


J Swan writes: "But DressageGuy -if anyone other than Sabine or slc says that it doesn't improve the horses way of going - we get the "Anky does it" answer, or "we don't ride at high enough a level to appreciate Rollku" or this one - which is a new one on me - about modern horses being different.

P.R.E.
May. 26, 2006, 05:58 PM
I think the defacto question should be, does it do anything to improve the horses' natural way of going? The answer: a resounding NO. Watch any international GP competition, and you'll see what I mean. The quality of the work, in many cases, has gone so far downhill, I don't even consider it true dressage anymore.


wow, you must be a hell of a rider and a trainer, to have such a strong opinion about GP competition!!

All those riders must be freaking out, now that you have announced that you don't consider International GP competition dressage anymore.

DressageGuy
May. 26, 2006, 06:11 PM
How many international competitions have you watched recently? Have you seen the so-called extentions? They're truly laughable most of the time. The horse fails to even track up, whereas they're supposed to be OVER tracking in an extention. You can NOT tell me that's correct dressage. Or how about until very recently piaffe was supposed to be done in place. Now the FEI, in its infinite wisdom, is allowing some forward movement. Gee, now why would that be? Perhaps it's just too damn hard for them to actually take the TIME to train it correctly. As someone said earlier, being pressured for time is NOT an excuse to take shortcuts to the detriment of the sport.

physical.energy
May. 26, 2006, 06:49 PM
How many international competitions have you watched recently? Have you seen the so-called extentions? They're truly laughable most of the time. The horse fails to even track up, whereas they're supposed to be OVER tracking in an extention. You can NOT tell me that's correct dressage. Or how about until very recently piaffe was supposed to be done in place. Now the FEI, in its infinite wisdom, is allowing some forward movement. Gee, now why would that be? Perhaps it's just too damn hard for them to actually take the TIME to train it correctly. As someone said earlier, being pressured for time is NOT an excuse to take shortcuts to the detriment of the sport.

Just a little FYI.... I have beeen watching international dressage both here and in europe since 1978 in person not on tv or video.... I spent the 02/03 show season on the FEI tour in europe so I have seen it first hand. Extensions are only 1 movement in a test, they don't define what is or isn't dressage. Piaffe for as long as I can remember watching has always allowed for forward movement 1 m either side of the centerline. Horses need to move a bit forward in order to keep their balance and rhythm and not get "stuck" or behind the leg.
I'm not taking a stand either way on Rolkur just answering you post from a position that you requested.

ideayoda
May. 26, 2006, 08:05 PM
Yet we see horses which are bracing onto the forelegs and going backwards and are higher behind both in the croup and the lift of the hindlegs. Hmmmm. Shouldnt dressage maintain purity of gaits and develop correct collection (vs a shorter stride?

physical.energy
May. 26, 2006, 08:17 PM
:yes: we should in fact see that!

HXF
May. 26, 2006, 08:18 PM
Ninety nine bottles of beer on the wall....

newrider
May. 26, 2006, 08:23 PM
I think Dressage Guy has many good points. I also personally think that RK is downright ugly and destroys the natural beauty of how the horses move. It disturbs me to watch a horse being ridden with its nose on its chest. I never see a horse do that on his own, not even when my very handsome and athletic gelding gets ready to try and mate. He is quite grand when he's in a romantic mood, and his neck does get in a very flexed position, but he still moves with beauty and grace and correct gaits and piaffes as he courts his mares. I don't find the artificial and exaggerated flexing of RK any more attractive to watch than the way reining horses move around like they are looking for their lost contacts on the ground somewhere. Neither puts the horse in a very natural frame or way of going from what I can see with my unsophisticated eye that has spent a lot of time watching herds of both wild and domesticated horses at play.

My husband is re-training an 18 year-old horse who was ridden for years by a very heavy handed western rider who really didn't understand much about riding. When my husband first started riding the horse, he would automatically go into the most perfect rendition of RK with his nose on his chest. Amazing that extreme bit avoidance looks almost just the same as RK. The other interesting point is that this horse used to start all rides with his previous rider with a session of bucking. RK does put a horse in a perfect position to launch a series of bucks.

I am no expert and perhaps just too ignorant to understand the beauty some people think RK manifests, but I will always enjoy watching and riding a relaxed and happy horse who maintains self-carriage without the need for an excessive and unattractively yanked-back neck. Whether or not it causes physical damage is another issue entirely, but it definitely is just downright ugly in my opinion.

Karoline
May. 26, 2006, 10:55 PM
From "O" Judge Truppa's article in the same issue of DT:

<< All the reports presented by the veterinarians in Lausanne (FEI Workshop on Rollkur) highlighted the fact that there was, at present stage,
no scientific evidence of any harm made to horses that were ridden in hyperflexion (new term originated in that meeting) if done by experienced people and not for a long time.
Not one of the people present, but who are now taking controversial attitudes toward the FEI on this issue, made any objection to the above statement.>>

I just want to add here that Sjef Janssen refers to one part of his schooling as Deep Round Low, made clear that it is merely one technique among many, and that he feels that the basis for his training program is speed control.

Which is also known as forward-back, uncoiling the spring and, 'many transitions within the gait and between gaits'.

Aka gymnasticizing the horse.

cheers,

Oddly, this is certainly not what Xenophon report regarding the same meeting:

" FEI symposium on the "Rollkur"

The official homepage of the FEI (Fédération Equestre Internationale, www.horsesport.org) includes a report regarding the conference on the "Rollkur" (over bending) in which the participation of our member Dr Gerd Heuschmann is mentioned.

On 31 January 2006 the FEI hosted a workshop addressing issues concerning the "Rollkur". The preliminary conclusion was that the "Rollkur" method does not violate the animal's welfare when used by experienced trainers and if applied, as presented by Sjef Janssen in Lausanne, without the use of external mechanical forces.

XENOPHON, the society for the conservation and promotion of the classical art of riding, would like to emphasise the following:

Our founding member Dr Gerd Heuschmann has presented the principles of the classical school of thought to this forum and clearly outlined the negative effects of the "Rollkur" on the health and on the natural kinematics of the horse. Nonetheless the FEI published an almost generalised acceptance of this method on their website.

The society XENOPHON would like to distance itself from this decision.
XENOPHON feels assured in its duty to fight for the welfare of the horse and to conserve the classical art of riding, from which the FEI has evidently distanced itself considerably by coming to this decision.

Karoline
May. 26, 2006, 11:02 PM
So what do you think - how many here think they know more than a bunch of certified veterinarians at a convention? A number? Any number?? Ballpark figure perhaps??......:D

Dr Gerd Heuschmann presented the principles of the classical school of thought to the Lausanne forum and clearly outlined the negative effects of the "Rollkur" on the health and on the natural kinematics of the horse. Nonetheless the FEI published an almost generalised acceptance of this method on their website.

Why is his opinion not worth hearing?

DressageGuy
May. 26, 2006, 11:25 PM
Because it's unpopular, and goes against what the FEI is letting win...

mzpeepers
May. 26, 2006, 11:59 PM
I happen to have an "in" with judge Truppa thanks to a good acquaintance of mine, a very well respected judge residing in Italy, and it is my understanding that both versions of the report are partial to their version of what they wanted to hear.It is also my understanding that the FEI fully intends to keep a very close eye to the whole hyperflexion thing and make the necessary changes to what is and is not allowed in the warm up accordingly.

BornToRide
May. 27, 2006, 12:10 AM
Ninety nine bottles of beer on the wall....
Hay, are you an alter coming in to add more without being recognized?? :cool:

Sabine
May. 27, 2006, 01:51 AM
Because it's unpopular, and goes against what the FEI is letting win...


Kid- we have to chip in and get you a ticket to go to Europe- not Aachen or some highly publized thing- but just to Europe- start in Amsterdam and visit some dutch stables, try and see some local shows and then make your way to Germany- maybe catch a CDI here or there- there are always some good ones going on- and finish it off with a major competition-...whatever works for your calendar. And then- when you come back home- you can really tell us- how many bad GP horses you have seen compete...I would love to read that report...

P.R.E.
May. 27, 2006, 02:15 AM
How many international competitions have you watched recently? Have you seen the so-called extentions? They're truly laughable most of the time. The horse fails to even track up, whereas they're supposed to be OVER tracking in an extention. You can NOT tell me that's correct dressage. Or how about until very recently piaffe was supposed to be done in place. Now the FEI, in its infinite wisdom, is allowing some forward movement. Gee, now why would that be? Perhaps it's just too damn hard for them to actually take the TIME to train it correctly. As someone said earlier, being pressured for time is NOT an excuse to take shortcuts to the detriment of the sport.

I have been in many international competitions lately, small, medium and big, in the US and in Europe. What is really laughable is that soemone that thinks that a good Piaffe has to be done in place without any kind of movment, will be making these kind of comments.
I recommend you, tdon't defy other people that you don't know who they are or their experience. Before critisizing go and get some real dressage training. You are young and is normal to make these kind of mistakes. At your age is better to focus in learning than in trying to teach.

Sabine
May. 27, 2006, 02:35 AM
Wise post PRE! I agree...the passion of youth is to be commended- the need for a good mentor is apparent.

DressageGuy
May. 27, 2006, 02:59 AM
Just because I'm young doesn't mean I can't tell correct work from incorrect work...

Sabine
May. 27, 2006, 03:06 AM
Just because I'm young doesn't mean I can't tell correct work from incorrect work...

Absolutely right! Still I think you need to reach out and see more and experience more- if your life allows it and you are free and mobile- go for it..
go to Europe. If you need help- let me know.

Sannois
May. 27, 2006, 07:07 AM
Sabine, you seem to miss the point, that, unless they can prove that it DOESN'T cause the horses pain and excessive distress, that it shouldn't be used. I still can not for the life of me figure out why well-known horsepeople continue to defend this crap. It's a travesty, and it makes a mockery out of those of use who try to ride our horses in a classical school of training. The only thing RK is good for is producing a tense, flamboyant horse that will win in the showring. This is NOT what we should be striving for.
YES Thats it!!!
oh dang... I said I would not go to another Rollkur thread! :eek:

JSwan
May. 27, 2006, 09:27 AM
Absolutely right! Still I think you need to reach out and see more and experience more- if your life allows it and you are free and mobile- go for it..
go to Europe. If you need help- let me know.

Could you be ANY more condescending and patronizing??????

ThreeFigs
May. 27, 2006, 11:01 AM
Gee, I leave town for a couple of days and this thread was born and grew like kudzu!

I'll just sit by and watch this time. Pass the Margaritas.

Though I would add, I thought "camisole de force" sounded more like a girdle!

physical.energy
May. 27, 2006, 01:28 PM
It's a good spectator thread.... can I offer you some chips and salsa or would you prefer guacomole?:lol:

Tonja
May. 27, 2006, 02:19 PM
Sabine wrote, in a message to DressageGuy

Kid- we have to chip in and get you a ticket to go to Europe- not Aachen or some highly publized thing- but just to Europe- start in Amsterdam and visit some dutch stables, try and see some local shows and then make your way to Germany- maybe catch a CDI here or there- there are always some good ones going on- and finish it off with a major competition-...whatever works for your calendar. And then- when you come back home- you can really tell us- how many bad GP horses you have seen compete...I would love to read that report...

DressageGuy made some valid points and speaking as one whose been there, done that (with video camera in hand); seeing zwangsjacke in action and the negative effects it had on the horses’ way of going made me strongly against it.

Are the chips, salsa and guacamole only for spectators? :D

sm
May. 27, 2006, 03:54 PM
regarding post #127 and going to europe:

1) we already saw a horrific video of anky warming up on another RK thread. And plenty of competition videos.

2) I believe both Klimkes, von Ziegner and KB already had that Dutch experience and they were clearly not impressed. Perhaps instead of your "hey, Smuck" tone of voice you can enlighten us on why these horsemen are still so against it after seeing it in person at major competitions in europe.

JSwan
May. 27, 2006, 05:34 PM
regarding post #127 and going to europe:

1) we already saw a horrific video of anky warming up on another RK thread. And plenty of competition videos.

2) I believe both Klimkes, von Ziegner and KB already had that Dutch experience and they were clearly not impressed. Perhaps instead of your "hey, Smuck" tone of voice you can enlighten us on why these horsemen are still so against it after seeing it in person at major competitions in europe.

Sorry - she can't enlighten us unless we get a travel visa for an extended stay in Europe. Maybe she moonlights as a travel agent, too.

siegi b.
May. 27, 2006, 08:17 PM
Hey Mike,

are you happy now?

Siegi

HXF
May. 27, 2006, 09:28 PM
Ninety nine bottles of beer....

COME ON EVERYONE:D....:p :yes: Clap your hands...

HXF
May. 27, 2006, 09:29 PM
Take one down...


(Let's go guys)

physical.energy
May. 27, 2006, 09:32 PM
Pass it around, and then you had 98 bottles of beer on the wall. Pass me another margarita and some chips please!:lol: :lol:

mzpeepers
May. 27, 2006, 09:34 PM
Heehee...it's a long weekend. Please pass the vodka. I'm ready for a martini :D

HXF
May. 27, 2006, 09:44 PM
That's it!! Few more beers and we'll be rolling on the floor and hoping for a kur in the morning...:cool:

Soooo

98 bottles of beer on the wall....

escondi
May. 27, 2006, 09:52 PM
A friend of mine gets a kick out of these discussions. Puleeez. It is
Rolllllllllllllllllkur. :cool:

DressageGuy
May. 27, 2006, 11:09 PM
LOL @ escondi! I've got the margaritas flowing here tonight. Come on, we need some more arguments.

sabryant
May. 27, 2006, 11:21 PM
I could get in to margaritaville! Pass one over please! No arguments here!

Mike Matson
May. 27, 2006, 11:24 PM
Siegi B.,

Walter Zettl is not happy.

Mike

Sabine
May. 28, 2006, 01:40 AM
Siegi B.,

Walter Zettl is not happy.

Mike


Sending a box of tissues....or maybe a beer might help...:)

Sannois
May. 28, 2006, 06:46 AM
Sending a box of tissues....or maybe a beer might help...:)
Its like beating a dead horse talking to some on here, Dont waste good keyboard strokes. On the other thread, someone doesnt even know who Walter Zetti is. ITs just not worth it. :no:

slc2
May. 28, 2006, 07:04 AM
zettl is not the universally known expert you think he is. he is popular amongst certain groups, that is all. quite a few people have no idea who he is, and if someone doesn't know who walter zettl is, that doesn't imply anything about their knowledge or purity of their dressage. YOU may think it does, Sannois, that doesn't make it so.

in addition, 'who is walter zettl' is often said by people who very well that he wrote a book and gives a lot of clinics and they STILL say 'who is he'.

also, keep in mind, EVERYTHING being said about zj or rollkur today, was being said in EXACTLY the same tone, 30 yrs ago, about classical dressage and the horse being on the bit - INCLUDING the veterinary reports!! and that time, it was the germans, not the dutch, who were being accused of cruelty. oh, and the spanish riding school was also the one being accused of cruelty, by the cruel discipline of forcing the horse to be 'on the bit', and the same 'there are reports of horses with sore necks' and 'expert veterinarians agree' was coming out.

Sannois
May. 28, 2006, 07:27 AM
zettl is not the universally known expert you think he is. he is popular amongst certain groups, that is all. quite a few people have no idea who he is, and if someone doesn't know who walter zettl is, that doesn't imply anything about their knowledge or purity of their dressage. YOU may think it does, Sannois, that doesn't make it so.

in addition, 'who is walter zettl' is often said by people who very well that he wrote a book and gives a lot of clinics and they STILL say 'who is he'.

also, keep in mind, EVERYTHING being said about zj or rollkur today, was being said in EXACTLY the same tone, 30 yrs ago, about classical dressage and the horse being on the bit - INCLUDING the veterinary reports!! and that time, it was the germans, not the dutch, who were being accused of cruelty. oh, and the spanish riding school was also the one being accused of cruelty, by the cruel discipline of forcing the horse to be 'on the bit', and the same 'there are reports of horses with sore necks' and 'expert veterinarians agree' was coming out.
I still find it interesting, that so many supposed Experts on here, Not saying I am one by any stretch, Are so quick to dismiss everyone elses comments and concerns, because they claim they dont know there ass from page eight. I kind of think that since there is so much talk of the effects of these methods one might think it warrants a third or fourth look. Not pointing this at you slc, but there are a few on here that are condescending and arrogant in their comments, which just furthers the rep of Dressage riders. Frankly I like to think it is just a few internet rats that get there jollys out of seeming superior. Because frankly, they are just words on a screen, and no one that I have even a clue as to who they are or what they have done.
I find it extremly interesting that when viewing there personal profile they have no picture or any information about themselves. And that will be all I say on this long beaten to death topic!! Happy Holiday Weekend folks! :D

claire
May. 28, 2006, 07:36 AM
Thought I would take a peek while I am enjoying my coffee and see how the discussion has progressed...:eek:

Well, the "Usual Suspects" have hi-jacked the thread with their pithy one-liners and nonsense.

Admittedly, my coffee hasn't kicked in... BUT: I am thinking this IS a purposeful MO???

"You'all" ;) can't cite studies or respond objectively to those (Pro and Ammie) with serious questions so you just side track the thread by flooding with nonsense???? :confused:

Sabine, Thank You for sharing your "story" I found it interesting too.
Would you care to give more detail? ie. cite the study/clinic/vet(s)
I would like to learn more about it.

Kathy Johnson
May. 28, 2006, 08:56 AM
Absolutely right! Still I think you need to reach out and see more and experience more- if your life allows it and you are free and mobile- go for it..
go to Europe. If you need help- let me know.

Wow! I think Dressageguy should take Sabine up on her gracious offer to fund his trip to Europe. That is truly classy! If Dressageguy can't go, I too have some provincial views that need expanding. May I apply for this scholarship?

slc2
May. 28, 2006, 10:25 AM
me too, i need to be expanded too.

i LOVE the idea of someone paying for my vacation to convince me of their point of view. i wish more people felt that way. in fact, i think there's some very important dressage competitions in florence, right down the street from the ufizi, that i need to see. and i PROMISE, unlike dressage guy that the trip WILL bring me around to your point of view.

siegi b.
May. 28, 2006, 12:04 PM
Mike,

did you ever wonder why the German clinicians in this country are so old? Let me give you a hint... it's because they aren't current in Europe anymore and so they come to this country where everybody with a German last name that can recite some "classical dressage BS" is considered an expert in dressage. Even better yet, if they have been published 100 years ago..

Zettl is how old now - high 70's, low 80's? And v. Ziegner is 84... enough said.

There are much bigger talents in Europe now, but they are also much harder to get for clinics in the US because they are so busy where they are.

It very much reminds me of when the US first started getting warmbloods.... all the old-style clunkers that nobody in Europe wanted to ride anymore.

And I'm sort of glad that we now have a new buzz word - Zwangsjacke - because I know quite well that pretty much no two people will prononce it the same way and so it will lose it's appeal very quickly.

Alagirl
May. 28, 2006, 12:12 PM
How many international competitions have you watched recently? Have you seen the so-called extentions? They're truly laughable most of the time. The horse fails to even track up, whereas they're supposed to be OVER tracking in an extention. You can NOT tell me that's correct dressage. Or how about until very recently piaffe was supposed to be done in place. Now the FEI, in its infinite wisdom, is allowing some forward movement. Gee, now why would that be? Perhaps it's just too damn hard for them to actually take the TIME to train it correctly. As someone said earlier, being pressured for time is NOT an excuse to take shortcuts to the detriment of the sport.


Give it up, Honey!

You are not riding in Europe, you know diddli-squat.
You don't ride upper levels, you are as dumb as dog-poop
You don't ride FEI level, you have no idea which side the bed to get out.
You don't compete in the olympics, you have no leg, but NO leg to stand on.
You have not won a gold medal...well, why are you still breathing!


Same ol' crap they give the critics: You don't ride this you can't begine to criticise us (can't hold a candle to AvG, etc)

well, if you ain't blind you can see, and if you ever read any book published before Anky (yeah I know, Nicole Uphoff was just as bad!) or took lessons there are a few things that will - or should be - burned into your mind for eternity: The Horses head is never to go BTV, the Poll is the highest point of the horse and last but nnot least the canter is a three beat gait (and thus the canter pirouette has to maintain the correct footfall of this gait)

But since I don't ride much these days...you know what this means for my observations!

Pass the 'ritas!

ideayoda
May. 28, 2006, 12:43 PM
The interesting thing is that there are both young and old which are still traditional. But the most interesting phenomenon is that those 'old treasures' used to be valued for their years of experience and things which they youngsters could learn from them. Their own experimentation should help us not to be wasteful with our time and horses. They have all trained more FEI horses that are around. Walter winning both a GP jumper and dressage class in one day. Now if you arent 30, toss it out. A person may be a learned rider at that point, but not the are simply not a finished trainer. And whats cool about this sport is you are learning from the horse until you cross the rainbow bridge! Look at stiff ol von Blixen Finecke (RIP) who in his 90s still got better piaffe out of a horse then their young lithe owners did.

What is bizarre is that everyone signs up to follow a rider come trainer who had three years riding experience when he started training. No commitment to a traditional, no set of values, except to win, no experience. Ahhh well, winning is everything, and rewrite the rules if they dont suit. Certainly most of the viewing public lack the background/experience/eye to really analyze what they see, and the reasons for movement in the horses body. And some judges easily equivocate the rules even though they are pledged to uphold them.

Time was when the eyes and possibilities of learning timing, techniques, simplicity in training (which only comes with age and experience) was respected, nee revered (as it should be). Certainly less than 25 years ago this was the case. What has changed is the instancey requested now and the amount of horses available for replacement. How many horses become schoolmasters into their 30s (like Fanal did) after their show careers? This used to be the norm, the horse and the teacher as well. And it was the warm up arena where you really see wonderful techniques and fantastic moments. WHY is it hidden away now?

Certainly there were some clunkers sold here, some dressage elephants, cull to America. But equally there were some lovely find type horses like Rath Patrick. All in who is experienced enough to do the buying. But it is not only americans, but trainers/riders all over the world who question how far from the rules we are allowed to go. And when the FEI has one of the foxes in the henhouse on the investigatory committee, the results are rather predetermined. They dont need the one liners to gain control, they have it.

Sannois
May. 28, 2006, 02:03 PM
The interesting thing is that there are both young and old which are still traditional. But the most interesting phenomenon is that those 'old treasures' used to be valued for their years of experience and things which they youngsters could learn from them. Their own experimentation should help us not to be wasteful with our time and horses. They have all trained more FEI horses that are around. Walter winning both a GP jumper and dressage class in one day. Now if you arent 30, toss it out. A person may be a learned rider at that point, but not the are simply not a finished trainer. And whats cool about this sport is you are learning from the horse until you cross the rainbow bridge! Look at stiff ol von Blixen Finecke (RIP) who in his 90s still got better piaffe out of a horse then their young lithe owners did.

What is bizarre is that everyone signs up to follow a rider come trainer who had three years riding experience when he started training. No commitment to a traditional, no set of values, except to win, no experience. Ahhh well, winning is everything, and rewrite the rules if they dont suit. Certainly most of the viewing public lack the background/experience/eye to really analyze what they see, and the reasons for movement in the horses body. And some judges easily equivocate the rules even though they are pledged to uphold them.

Time was when the eyes and possibilities of learning timing, techniques, simplicity in training (which only comes with age and experience) was respected, nee revered (as it should be). Certainly less than 25 years ago this was the case. What has changed is the instancey requested now and the amount of horses available for replacement. How many horses become schoolmasters into their 30s (like Fanal did) after their show careers? This used to be the norm, the horse and the teacher as well. And it was the warm up arena where you really see wonderful techniques and fantastic moments. WHY is it hidden away now?

Certainly there were some clunkers sold here, some dressage elephants, cull to America. But equally there were some lovely find type horses like Rath Patrick. All in who is experienced enough to do the buying. But it is not only americans, but trainers/riders all over the world who question how far from the rules we are allowed to go. And when the FEI has one of the foxes in the henhouse on the investigatory committee, the results are rather predetermined. They dont need the one liners to gain control, they have it.
Ideayoda!!! Its refreshing to know that there are still people who think that way! :yes:

Kathy Johnson
May. 28, 2006, 03:36 PM
I find this thread extremely age-ist. Dressageguy is too young, Zettl is too old. Let's throw in weight, gender, religion and ethnicity so we can all be offended.

fiona
May. 28, 2006, 03:50 PM
Can i just point out that Ingrid Klimke competes International dressage and Eventing at 4 star level. She was highly placed in a recent International GP ( sorry can't remember which show or placing!) and 2nd at Badminton 3DE which is more difficult than just showjumping which surely puts her in the same class as your Mr Zettl and proves contemporary International riders can indeed kick ass.


Skirmish on.....

DocHF
May. 28, 2006, 03:55 PM
someone doesnt even know who Walter Zetti
Yeah just who is this guy ZETTI anyway? cousin to sasquatch?

BornToRide
May. 28, 2006, 04:01 PM
Hay be nice - just because he may have a differnet opinion about modern training techniques does not mean we need to be disprespectful!

He's one of the top Dressage trainers and clinicians and he's more classical oriented.

DocHF
May. 28, 2006, 04:06 PM
Uh that would be ZETTL.
I swear I was talking to Zetti last night whilst astral travelling in my starbody and he told me that the whole thread suks.

Pass the tequila. Rather make that Brandy, Walter and I would both enjoy a glass.

escondi
May. 28, 2006, 04:16 PM
Doc, you were? Well, I was on my ouija board last night, I had a nice discussion with the good Colonel.

fiona
May. 28, 2006, 04:17 PM
He's one of the top Dressage trainers and clinicians

I don't live in the US so i don't know Zettl either. I don't mean any disrespect but can i ask - Who has he trained? Which horses did he compete? Is he training anyone now who competes? Where did he train? Who were/are his contemporaries? Historically where would he be placed? has he written books? Is he available to see on video/dvd? Just so i can put him in context.

I'm sure if it was him travelling in the vicinity of a Vauxhall astral plane he would say this thread sucks but if he is the man people think he is i doubt he'd travel in that class!

DocHF
May. 28, 2006, 04:26 PM
Yup Whiner Klimkey was at the party too, escondi. What channel on your Ouija Board?

Fiona, it was Zetti I was partying with. I'm just hoping the real Zettl would join me in a vat of brandy. Zetti /Yeti/ sasquatch- they're all just mythical creatures.

Egontoast reminded me that my riding bra is more of a zwangsjacke than anything I do to my horse.

BornToRide
May. 28, 2006, 04:32 PM
Egontoast reminded me that my riding bra is more of a zwangsjacke than anything I do to my horse. Well as long as the girls are locked and loaded :D

Ellie K
May. 28, 2006, 04:36 PM
On the other thread, someone doesnt even know who Walter Zetti is. ITs just not worth it. :no:
I doubt it...that was likely just one of many alters whose real personage knows damn well who he is and doesn't realise how blatantly obvious it is that it is an alter!

But Mr. Zettl has been in N.A. since the early 80s I think....so it's not surprising to me that he would not be widely known or revered in Europe, and I do not think this is necessarily a negative reflection on his abilities. Rather, I would suspect he was recruited by the Canadian team for a reason...because he was very capable and well thought of. Just because someone came over here to help fill such a huge void in knowledge that existed at that time doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't get a job back home. And the German NF obviously thought well enough of his book to have it translated back, which they have never done before.

ise@ssl
May. 28, 2006, 04:37 PM
Well who does or does not know him is incidental - a person doesn't have to be famous to be RIGHT!

escondi
May. 28, 2006, 04:43 PM
WPF: Did you mean Schlong? Sorry, I'm so confused. But I've only just started wearing a bra.

Doc: I'm on the Wet Coast Ouija Channel. And the colonel I was talking to was a dead dude - Colonel Podayskey? Never heard of him before and can't swear by the spelling. He tried to sound it out to me. But, geeee, I don't know.

TB or not TB?
May. 28, 2006, 05:55 PM
You all must forgive my dear friend DG... I apologize for his rude and inappropriate behavior. :cry: Please note that he had a few too many margaritas the other day and the inebriation caused him to forget the cardinal rule of the horse world: Pros are ALWAYS right. Duh. :yes:

Fear not, DG, our moral standards will soon fall and we will sell out, too, spreading the joys of Rollkur to the far reaches of the earth. Let us not forget the lesson of our beloved Paul Valliere, who shows us how poor, undeserving professionals are misunderstood and their infinite wisdom mocked by the righteous nonsense of horse loving fools. We could all learn something from him. The truth is, all that matters in the horse world is the pursuit of happiness in the form of money. We need to get off our high horses and realize how valuable they *really* are, by ruining them with absurd training practices or killing them for insurance collection.

I present to you a heartwarming tale of courage and beating the odds: "How my friend became a pro, in 2 paragraphs or less," by TB or not TB?. It was just the other day I heard a friend talking about the woes of the poor and how hard it can be to climb up the rope from amateur to professional. The poor dear was under the misguided delusion that she ought to put the wellbeing of her horse before her own competitive drive. "He can only do 3rd level!" she cried. "Nonsense!" said I, "it matters not what his true talent is, but how well he can fake higher levels." Unfortunately the horse was only able to fake his way to PSG, which was quite a tragedy for my friend, but she lucked out and he mysteriously colicked and with the insurance money plus the profits from selling her soul, she was able to buy a horse that could fake his way right through GP.

2 months later and she's a bonified professional and is spreading the message of rollkur and insurance fraud to young people everywhere. Look for her on the international circuit. :sadsmile: The end.

Fear not, Rollkur enthusiasts, for I am merely a youth of 21 and unschooled in the ways of professionalism and good horsemanship. Though my tale drips of sarcasm and cynicism, know that my opinion counts not, for I have not competed at the FEI level, and am therefore unable to recognize good riding and correct dressage. Keep faith, for likely shortsighted folk like myself and DG will grow out of this idealistic phase and join the rest of you in pursuining the path of ease rather than that of correctness. Our hearts shall turn to stone and our eyes to the ground, and we, too, shall blindly follow the masses who gather 'round the coat tails of shiny gold medals and impressive foreign names. And on that day, when frigid air turns the land to unending winter and hell itself freezes over, we shall pull our horses' noses to their chests and embrace you all in the brotherhood of scientology. I mean rollkur. Amen. :yes:

Don't worry DJ, we'll outlive them. It's gotta sting that we are the future, and as the up and coming generation of riders, the income and livelihood of current professionals depends on our patrionization of their services. All that glitters is not gold, and you couldn't *pay* me to ride with Anky or any of the rollkur touting freaks. Thanks, I'd rather never get past Intro level if it means I don't screw over my horse. :rolleyes:

sabryant
May. 28, 2006, 06:16 PM
WOW, TB or not TB

Your post sounds like the makings of a great RAP song! Especially your defining/signing quote...kill them right back!

physical.energy
May. 28, 2006, 06:31 PM
TB or not TB.... very funny:lol: :lol:
Just as long as you youngins don't forget that not all the international world is using this. Don't include all the really great pro's out in the FEI international competition arena and don't claim non of them can do extensions or fault them for horses moving forward in piaffe as your buddy DG did. oops my mistake.... don't claim non of them can do dressage based only on their extensions and moving forward in piaffe. This shows his lack of knowlege and experience in riding and training. That does not mean he doesn't have a right to an opinion. He certainly does, but condemning all international riders as though they have no idea how to train or are all using RK is going to cause response from people, who may have better experience than he and have seen the world first hand.
This is where I take issue with his post, not the issue of Rolkur. rollkur is ugly! The international riders are very good to their horses and many of them go to unbelievable lengths to make sure their horses are fit, healthy, happy and most important comfortable in their bodies. They are not all as unscrupulous as so many bb posters are willing to accuse them of.
I'm amazed someone hasn't started a Rolkur is Ugly clique! :winkgrin:

DressageGuy
May. 28, 2006, 07:04 PM
Please, please show me where I condemned ALL international pros? I have the utmost respect riders such as Debbie McDonald, Gunter Seidel, and Lisa Wilcox. But yet, even they put in more correct, if less flamboyant rides, they continue to be placed lower than the extravegant crap that wins.

fiona
May. 28, 2006, 07:13 PM
a person doesn't have to be famous to be RIGHT!
No they just have to be in cyberspace.


Pros are ALWAYS right. [QUOTE]
Yes, you'll find 99.9% of the time they are. next.

[QUOTE]the income and livelihood of current professionals depends on our patrionization of their services.
The classic mistake of youth, bless.


Oh, I have been coveting that bra! Is it the one with the built in schwung?
One of my friends is a lady of ample bosom and rides a horse with serious gaits - she was complimented on her horses movement in particular the two bra trot.
Sadly my efforts to purchase a horse with a two bra trot have been hampered by my pathetic language skills although i have many new friends in the Netherlands.

All the above whilst being true are cheap one liners intended to amuse deflect and detract.
skirmish on

siegi b.
May. 28, 2006, 07:27 PM
..another one-liner....
Fiona, you're my hero!

Also intended to amuse, deflect, and detract.

Karoline
May. 28, 2006, 07:40 PM
More at www.walterzettl.net

Walter Zettl was born in Altrohlau, Czechoslovakia in 1929. When he was 16 he entered the riding school of Bad Kissingen in Kronberg, Ludwigsburg where he worked for eight years with Col. Aust. and began a lifelong pursuit of equine teaching and education.

In 1950 Zettl was awarded the German Federation Gold Riding Medal, an honor for success upper level dressage and jumping for a single competitive season. At the age of 21 Zettl was the youngest person ever to be awarded such a prestigious honor.

In 1952 Zettl was selected to ride for the German dressage team at the Helsinki Summer Olympics, however his professional riding status prevented his participation.

One year later Zettl was chosen to succeed Otto Loerke and Willi Schultheis as trainer at Gestuet Vornholz. He received his Reitlehrer certification giving him professional teacher status after reaching the minimum age of 25.

In 1955, at the age of 26, Zettl became first assistant to his mentor Col. Herbert Aust in Ludwigsberg. Here he coached three young riders aged 18 to 20 to Gold riding Medals.

From 1957 to 1965 Mr. Zettl served as Chief trainer in Munich where his students were successful in many championships. Zettl continued to compete and win at the International Grand Priz in Salzburg and the Bavarian Dressage Championships.

In 1965 Zettl moved to the Reitclub Heidelberg where he was Chief trainer for over 10 years. He again coached successful riders, young and old, in dressage and jumping competition.

In 1981 Zettl was recruited to move to Canada and serve as Managing Director of the Canadian I.E.S.S. During this time he coached the young riders dressage team from Ontario. The team went on to win three consecutive team gold medals, one individual gold, two individual silvers, and one individual bronze medal at the North American Continental Young Riders Championships.

In 1984 Walter coached dressage for the Canadian 3-day event Team at the Los Angeles Summer Olympics. During this time he was awarded by the Province of Ontario in Recognition for Distinguished Performance in the field of amateur sport.

For the last twenty years Walter Zettl has continued his lifelong work of teaching riders the art of dressage combined with communication with the horse. In 1998 his book “Dressage In Harmony” was published. He has also written many articles for German and US publications such as USDF Connection and Dressage Today. His latest work is a three-video, instructional
series called “A Matter of Trust.”

fiona
May. 28, 2006, 07:47 PM
Watch any international GP competition, and you'll see what I mean. The quality of the work, in many cases, has gone so far downhill, I don't even consider it true dressage anymore.__________________

Think that just about covers it DG!

Thanks for all that info Karoline.

physical.energy
May. 28, 2006, 07:58 PM
Comments by Dressage Guy
"At least we finally have some more widley-known/recognized masters speaking out against the BS that has become internation competitive dressage. After watching several performances on RFD-TV at GP competitions, it's quite distressing to see "extended" trots that don't track up, piaffes and passages where the horse is swinging his hind end all over the place, and piaffes where there is a ton of forward movement. When are people going to realize that this is NOT correct training?

Watch any international GP competition, and you'll see what I mean. The quality of the work, in many cases, has gone so far downhill, I don't even consider it true dressage anymore.

I've been watching several GP rides lately of international competitors, and very, very few of them demonstrate what I think most of us would consider "correct" dressage. How can ANYONE possibly defend the fact that most of these horses don't have a real extension in the trot? You can watch the videos and plainly see that the horse doesn't even track up from behind, but you see front legs flailing every which-way. And now we have piaffes being allowed to move "slightly forward".

How many international competitions have you watched recently? Have you seen the so-called extentions? They're truly laughable most of the time. The horse fails to even track up, whereas they're supposed to be OVER tracking in an extention. You can NOT tell me that's correct dressage. Or how about until very recently piaffe was supposed to be done in place. Now the FEI, in its infinite wisdom, is allowing some forward movement. Gee, now why would that be? Perhaps it's just too damn hard for them to actually take the TIME to train it correctly. As someone said earlier, being pressured for time is NOT an excuse to take shortcuts to the detriment of the sport."


All I'm sayen is..... there is a whole lot more than what ya see on RFD in the international arena.
To say that international competitive dressage is BS is a pretty strong assessment from someone who hasn't even seen it up close and personal.. The quality of dressage has gone so downhill you don't even consider it dressage.... Well, give us an example of what is good dressage then.

FWIW~ Many horses that excell at GP do so because of their inate talant at collected work. Since most of the GP is made up of collected work it is not unexpected to see that not alot of horses will have great extensions in the trot. The extension is only one movement and to criticize or base such a strong belief on this is a bit naieve. As well as the piaffe statement. Anyone who has trained and or riden piaffe knows horses must be able to move a bit forward in order to keep their rhythm & balance and not get stuck or behind the leg.... this has been in dressage tests this way for years and years. It is nothing new that the FEI all of a sudden decided was ok so as to bend any great and mysterous rule so bad trainers can cheat.

Rollkur is UGLY!

DressageGuy
May. 28, 2006, 08:28 PM
Except that the original directives for piaffe state that it is to be performed IN PLACE. They never used to allow forward movement. An example of good dressage? Ride with Karl Mikolka sometime, THAT'S good dressage. No gimmicks, no tricks, just plain old-fashioned classical work to improve the horse.

egontoast
May. 28, 2006, 08:36 PM
All the above whilst being true are cheap one liners intended to amuse deflect and detract.
skirmish on

:cool: Cheers, Fiona!:cool:

Touchstone Farm
May. 28, 2006, 10:33 PM
Excellent post, ideayoda.

And by the way, Von Zienger still rides, as does his wife, and in fact has a new young horse. So for those who are dismissing him because he no longer rides, he does indeed practice what he preaches.

fiona
May. 29, 2006, 07:21 PM
Can we have a potted history of Von Z and K Milkolka please?

DressageGuy
May. 29, 2006, 07:38 PM
Are you serious? Karl trained the Brazilian olympic team in the '70's, then moved on to, in short, take over the training at Tempel farms. His prodigy there was George Williams, Karl trained him. Go to: http://www.karlmikolka.com for more info.

P.R.E.
May. 29, 2006, 09:21 PM
Are you serious? Karl trained the Brazilian olympic team in the '70's, then moved on to, in short, take over the training at Tempel farms. His prodigy there was George Williams, Karl trained him. Go to: http://www.karlmikolka.com for more info.

If he would have been the trainer of the SOCCER brazilian Olympic team in the 70's, then that will be something to brag about.

ThreeFigs
May. 29, 2006, 09:32 PM
If he would have been the trainer of the SOCCER brazilian Olympic team in the 70's, then that will be something to brag about.

Meee-yow! C'mon, P.R.E., you gotta admit Karl did well by George Williams!

(I will agree, though, that the Brazilian Soccer team of the 70's probably had a better record than the Brazilian Dressage team!!)

DressageGuy
May. 29, 2006, 09:56 PM
I never said the team did WELL. I simply said that he trained them. Was it one of the first years that Brazil had an Olympic team? Honest question, I don't know. I know that I've ridden with Karl more than once, and always came away pleased with my horse's progress and that I had actually taken away something I could apply on my own.

escondi
May. 29, 2006, 10:11 PM
Couldn't we just temporarily detach the male vocal chords until they stop putting their feet in their mouths?

Alagirl
May. 29, 2006, 11:28 PM
Couldn't we just temporarily detach the male vocal chords until they stop putting their feet in their mouths?

Why? Because the females have smaller feet and more room in their mouths to place both of them comfortably in?

nhwr
May. 30, 2006, 01:05 AM
"Sometimes successful riders warm up their horses by overflexing them in an extremely round frame. This exercise requires some explanation. If it is executed excessively or incorrectly it can do great damage. If done correctly it can be useful. The horse's back connects the quarters with the forehand like a bridge. Under the rider's weight, this bridge cannot function unless the back muscles are strong enough and work without tension. To make sure the horse enters the ring relaxed and submissive, it can be useful to over flex the horse's neck for a limited time in order to achieve relaxation by a maximum stretching of the topline (Fig.18).

This way, poor back muscles can be strengthened or strong and tight ones can be loosened up. Highly strung horses will get bored with the monotony of the work and calm down, since there is nothing to see but the ground.

To overflex properly, however, requires a sensative and effective rider who knows how to keep the horse connected. As long as the rider is able to elevate the forehand (the poll being the highest point), and to create engagement as well as impulsion from the haunches at anytime, it is not a violation of classical dressage."


An excerpt from the recent FEI symposium?

No, page 33 The Elements of Dressage by Kurd Albrecht von Ziegner. It is an excellent book, IMO.

Sabine
May. 30, 2006, 01:16 AM
Ohhh- goodie- thanks for going through the trouble of typing...I am ready for choclit and champagne now- let the others do the work...:)LOL!!

Lambie Boat
May. 30, 2006, 01:29 AM
dresssag guy: DUDE! forget the Brazilian dressage team. Mikolka was the Chief Rider at the Spanish Riding School! Number one guy. That's some serious knowledge.

ideayoda
May. 30, 2006, 01:51 AM
Unfortunately both horses had problems on the plane (old type transport where if anything happened they could destroy the plane) going there and were put down........

DressageGuy
May. 30, 2006, 01:59 AM
ideayoda, where the heck did that come from? feisomeday, yeah, I somehow managed to forgot that little fact ;). nhwr, that's a very interesting quote. I wonder how he can justify his stance on RK when he writes that it is acceptable at times?

nhwr
May. 30, 2006, 02:03 AM
that's a very interesting quote. I wonder how he can justify his stance on RK when he writes that it is acceptable at times?
That's what I was wondering too, Dressage Guy :yes:

P.R.E.
May. 30, 2006, 03:27 AM
I never said the team did WELL. I simply said that he trained them. Was it one of the first years that Brazil had an Olympic team? Honest question, I don't know. I know that I've ridden with Karl more than once, and always came away pleased with my horse's progress and that I had actually taken away something I could apply on my own.

I have no problem with you DG, but you type to fast just to give an answer and because of that you make mistakes. Sometimes is better not to say something unless you are sure of the statement you are making, then your opinion will gain value among your peers and be highly respected by whoever is not your friend.

That was not one of the first years Brasil had an Olympic team. Brasil had been attending the Olympic games for the equestrian disciplines long before the 70's. Most Countries used to send mainly members from their Cavalry to the Olympic Games. In the 70's South American Countries began incorporating civilian riders in their teams and with that looking for trainers outside there own Armed Forces.

As someone already mentioned, Mikolka's accomplishments are more important with the SRS than with the Brasil team or even with George Williams. Williams has his own merits, he is not a product of Mikolka, he was one of his teachers, not the only one.

P.R.E.
May. 30, 2006, 03:33 AM
I wonder how he can justify his stance on RK when he writes that it is acceptable at times?

Maybe he doesn't have to justify anything. Just maybe, he is saying that is more to the world than black and white and is not prudent to be radical in any position. The only thing we can be sure is pure mathematics (and god for those who believe in him), for everyhting else we always have to leave a door open to the possibility of being wrong in our conclusions and that is why is so important to have an open conversation without passion or prejudice.

fiona
May. 30, 2006, 03:35 AM
Am i serious? well yes.
America is a huge place how would i know your riders and trainers? I see the team riders and a few others riding/training over here but it tends to be the same people each season.
Equally there are a quite a lot of Chief Riders from the SRS and i don't follow their careers especially when they left eons ago.
A short history of these venerable trainers would be appreciated.

Kathy Johnson
May. 30, 2006, 08:38 AM
As I said in the other thread, I believe Von Ziegner has had a change of heart about the method since the publication of his book some years ago. People can change their minds when they see or know more.

I would be interested to know *why* he changed his mind. "Not a violation of classical dressage" is a far cry from "straightjacket." The increased use of the method? The method spreading into the wrong hands? The increased length of time horses are ridden like that? Physically more hyperflexed than was previously done? Or, over the years, has he seen the physical effect on the gaits?

sm
May. 30, 2006, 08:51 AM
one way to find out, contact him via:


*Col. Albrecht Von Ziegner Dressage Clinic
4/21/2006 8:00 AM -- 4/24/2006 8:00 PM
Location: Smithville, TX
Contact Information: Contact Bobbie Paulk at cpaulk@totalaccess.net
http://www855.outtech.com/Lists/Events/DispForm.aspx?ID=180

slc2
May. 30, 2006, 10:58 AM
always have to leave a door open to the possibility of being wrong in our conclusions and that is why is so important to have an open conversation without passion or prejudice

both sides now.

Alagirl
May. 30, 2006, 12:09 PM
always have to leave a door open to the possibility of being wrong in our conclusions and that is why is so important to have an open conversation without passion or prejudice

both sides now.

I shall copy this to my favotites - and of course pull it out of my a...sleeve at a fitting moment! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

physical.energy
May. 30, 2006, 01:56 PM
I shall copy this to my favotites - and of course pull it out of my a...sleeve at a fitting moment! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sannois
Jun. 1, 2006, 07:36 AM
from its grave! god knows it deserves to die!
But I was wondering where the term ZwangesJacke came from?? Is it a slag term.. My Husband speaks German and he said It is not a common term. Who coined it, from the Term Rollkur?? Thas all I was wondering. :lol:

sm
Jun. 1, 2006, 08:47 AM
I'm interested in the translation of "rollkur" since the FEI determined it on page 14, anything behind the vertical. And the tests were done on “round and deep” “Rollkur-like” training. So that's anything, even two inches BTV? What is ROLLKUR-LIKE ?

Here's from page 7:
2.6. RADIOLOGICAL ASPECTS OF THE CERVICAL REGION IN RELATION TO OVER-BENDING (ROLLKUR)
Dr. Emile Welling, Blaricum, The Netherlands
Dr. Welling said that as a veterinary clinician he could not attribute specific lesions in horses to “round and deep” “Rollkur-like” training. He found a huge variation in radiological findings in different types of horses subject to a variation of training methods and not just in sports horses. Moreover, calcification and exostoses at the attachment of the ligamentum nuchae to the nuchal crest of the occipital bone was common in a great diversity of horses. However, pain in the cervical region was not as common as back or limb pain.

And page 14:
"Definition
Rollkur has been defined as a training method involving forced flexion of the poll and neck with the horse’s head pulled behind the vertical. "


http://rhonealpes.dressage.free.fr/INFOS/FEIrollkur.pdf

********

so if the definition is so loosely constructed then we do need a name that expresses the dark bay horse's frame on the cover of the report, page one. Straightjacket fits, who ever came up with the name.

Kathy Johnson
Jun. 1, 2006, 09:00 AM
Thanks, sm, that definition works for me. The FEI definition, no less. Behind the vertical is just that. Usually if we're two inches btv, we've gotten there by accident. All the zillions of pictures we see of horses BTV and short in the neck are not usually a product of rollkur, but too stringent a half halt or a loss of balance. But if you train deliberately there, that's rollkur.

I think, just my opinion, is that the FEI is on a wild goose chase to prove that rollkur impacts the horse physiologically, although it might. What it does impact, and what can be proven is that it affects the purity of the gaits.

But, then the judging is flawed, so I don't think they want to go that route. It's a lot harder to judge the purity of the gaits than it is to judge "happiness" in a horse.

sm
Jun. 1, 2006, 09:11 AM
wow Kathy, then we need a name that describes the dark bay horse's frame on the cover of the report, page one http://rhonealpes.dressage.free.fr/INFOS/FEIrollkur.pdf

How many TROTS does the FEI have: extended, collected, working.... and we use ROLLKUR to cover all the bases including two inches BTV if I want on purpose to keep the horse there? This ROLLKUR definition as per FEI is really a joke, and a bad one.

cdfhorses
Jul. 12, 2009, 11:56 PM
I personally take offense to the notion that Col. von Ziegner is old and outdated and that he came to the US because he could not get people to take lessons from him in Germany. He is a true master and deserves more respect from those of you who don't know what you are talking about. I have attended his clinics here in the US and I also worked for him for 6 months in Germany. If his methods are outdated then dressage is doomed.

I had the privilege to ride one of his schoolmasters. She responded to the lightest commands of any horse I have ever ridden. To ask for a flying change you just needed to move your hips, not your legs and she did a piaffe in place with no problem. I even have a picture of me doing a piaffe while riding her. Her haunches are low and her shoulders are up. To suggest that his ways are outdated and rollkur is the new training method is frightening. Dressage training is not about the latest trend, you either do it correctly (classically) or you are not really doing dressage.

I personally would like to see rollkur banned. It gives dressage a bad reputation. Dressage is supposed to be about training a horse to respond to light aids, not winning competitions at any cost.

I was not at all impressed with Anky's olympic performance. I hope someday soon, judges will also start to remember what dressage is supposed to look like so this 'method' is a thing of the past.

Foxtrot's
Jul. 13, 2009, 12:19 AM
I wish there was a warning when OLD, old threads get resurrected - 199 posts and it starts up again. I hope you all did not re-read the whole thing (like I started to do before noticing the dates.)

Fixerupper
Jul. 13, 2009, 01:06 AM
It was getting a little dull...but this is a bit naughty :lol:

Coppers mom
Jul. 13, 2009, 01:20 AM
I wish there was a warning when OLD, old threads get resurrected - 199 posts and it starts up again. I hope you all did not re-read the whole thing (like I started to do before noticing the dates.)

Yup :o:lol:

Sabine
Jul. 13, 2009, 02:38 AM
Oh my...this is like looking at old photos...I was pretty zesty then..haha!!! well it appears an old topic now...we are soooo YAWN about RK and MM and Ziegner...hehe!!!
Times sure have changed...and the money making ideas...are all dead...now!~!Mortgages and internet sites to save the world...yeah!
Deep is ok- RK has kind of softened and disappeared and I think we all know a lot more...which is great!

so thanks for reviving this old thread and now put it away again....please!

slc2
Jul. 13, 2009, 07:45 AM
cdfhorses has one post, made this morning, and joined the day before the one post.

Sure we are sick of rollkur discussion...though not sick enough of it that BTV of 1 degree isn't still pointed out as abuse here, and those who do not think slightly deep is a problem are still occasionally singled out as 'abusers'....

However....I'm not so sure the post should be ignored. Von Zeigner seems to get trashed here a lot, and I think to ridicule a post that just happens to have something positive about him is a little bit over the top. We far too much tend to discard one point of view here.

MOST people who come to the US to teach dressage, are at one point or another, accused by SOMEONE of getting pushed out of the European market due to incompetence/competition they couldn't stand up to.

And in some cases, it's rather true. In some cases, it's rather not, and the person is just irritated with the trainer because he's done or said soemthing that person didn't happen to agree with.

For a time, America was attractive because the dollar was up and there was the potential to make a great deal of money here. As a country new to dressage there was a big potential market of horse buyers and people needing trainers. People were 'loose' and not associated with any one trainer or agent.

Georg Theodorescu, always outspoken, highly opinionated and critical of his peers (and adored here when he seemed to be against rollkur or 'the establishment'), was also here for a time, and went back home to have a successful stable in Europe, his daughter has been, oh, a wee bit successful too. So at least some of what he taught must have had some merit. Theodorescu actually said in one interview, that he just could not STAND the American mentality of 'what button do I push to make a piaffe?' He insisted dressage was not about pushing buttons and one had to develop a feeling for it....and I'm not sure everyone adored him.

I'm not sure any trainer is adored by ALL(I can't think of one trainer that has never had a negative comment made about him/her). And I'm not so sure every trainer that writes a book is beyond examination, either. Books tend to give an aura of authority and an assumption of experience and skill. We respect books.

So I'm not so sure it's ALWAYS that EVERY trainer who comes here is coming here with his tail between his legs. At the same time, it is a profession and trainers tend to gravitate to where the customers are and the money is. If America's recession is worse than Europe's, we can expect to see a shift in how many trainers make their homes here....but it really seems that trainers of the top levels, enlarging their market to all over the world, and trying to have customers in many countries, rather than relying too much on just any one area.

Kareen
Jul. 13, 2009, 09:07 AM
Someone who would consider Colonel von Ziegner and/or his work outdated really disqualifies themselves from discussing anything about riding. I'm sorry guys but unless you've ever felt a well trained horse (and they are hard to come by and increasingly so) you don't know what you're talking about.
The horses that sell well these days seldom are trained well but they are manufactured quickly in an effort to get them gone to someone who can not ride well enough or doesn't know how to distinguish between well trained and an effectively conditioned horse.
Besides Colonel von Ziegner is one of the few contemporary riding experts I've found to be respectable on a training level and the human level at the same time. He is a highly credible horseman who many successful riders here and in the States owe and it is highly inappropriate to even discuss him up here when the self-appointed critiques haven't even the slightest hint of what his work it about let alone what he's doing at home.

blackhorse6
Jul. 13, 2009, 09:20 AM
Mike,

did you ever wonder why the German clinicians in this country are so old? Let me give you a hint... it's because they aren't current in Europe anymore and so they come to this country where everybody with a German last name that can recite some "classical dressage BS" is considered an expert in dressage. Even better yet, if they have been published 100 years ago..

Zettl is how old now - high 70's, low 80's? And v. Ziegner is 84... enough said.

There are much bigger talents in Europe now, but they are also much harder to get for clinics in the US because they are so busy where they are.

It very much reminds me of when the US first started getting warmbloods.... all the old-style clunkers that nobody in Europe wanted to ride anymore.

And I'm sort of glad that we now have a new buzz word - Zwangsjacke - because I know quite well that pretty much no two people will prononce it the same way and so it will lose it's appeal very quickly.

Oh My! I am starting to get an anti-American feeling to this thread.. Geee, if we Americans are such an aweful lot with no talent and obviously outdated ideas, why stay here?:confused:
On another note, went to a very large dressage competition this weekend with BNT/riders. By far the best and highest scoring rider was an American who never once took his horse BTV during schooling or competition.. The picture of him riding was one of pure pleasure. His horses were happy, relaxed and magical to watch. Just my very humble, patriotic opinion;)

cdfhorses
Jul. 13, 2009, 09:40 AM
Sorry to have stirred things up. Yes, I just joined, so I didn't realize how old the post was. I just got so upset when I happened to read something negative about Col von Ziegner that I felt I had to respond. He is a fine horseman and a fine person. How many of us will be riding in our 80's? He can because he doesn't use force.

freestyle2music
Jul. 13, 2009, 09:42 AM
Sorry to have stirred things up. Yes, I just joined, so I didn't realize how old the post was. I just got so upset when I happened to read something negative about Col von Ziegner that I felt I had to respond. He is a fine horseman and a fine person. How many of us will be riding in our 80's? He can because he doesn't use force.

You should see my grandfather when he rides along the beach. :D

egontoast
Jul. 13, 2009, 10:22 AM
You should see my grandfather when he rides along the beach

:) If that's not a joke I hope you get some video of that while you still can!

My grandfathers were both horsemen but sadly we have no photos of them with their horses.

blackhorse6
Jul. 13, 2009, 10:44 AM
You should see my grandfather when he rides along the beach. :D

Would also love to see pictures.. those are memories you'll have forever:winkgrin:

freestyle2music
Jul. 13, 2009, 11:06 AM
:) If that's not a joke I hope you get some video of that while you still can!

My grandfathers were both horsemen but sadly we have no photos of them with their horses.

EGG No it wasn't a joke. My grandfather (Opa Snor) and his horse were riding along the beach every morning with special equipment (sleepnet) to catch mussels. The thing I wanted to say is, that Siegi is right. There are many videos on Internet from these ODG's, but it's mostly about teaching the level 1 and level 2 riders. If these ODG's are so good why do all topriders of this new ERA don't want them as a trainer. IMHO Siegi posted what everybody thinks, but it seems they don't have the guts to say it.

Just to make this story complete, these days you can ride around the beach with your horse and with the same equipement but never catch a mussel anymore. The reason for that you might call polution or progress.:yes::no:

Sorry to be so phylosofical.

sm
Jul. 13, 2009, 12:03 PM
Someone who would consider Colonel von Ziegner and/or his work outdated really disqualifies themselves from discussing anything about riding. I'm sorry guys but unless you've ever felt a well trained horse (and they are hard to come by and increasingly so) you don't know what you're talking about.
The horses that sell well these days seldom are trained well but they are manufactured quickly in an effort to get them gone to someone who can not ride well enough or doesn't know how to distinguish between well trained and an effectively conditioned horse.
Besides Colonel von Ziegner is one of the few contemporary riding experts I've found to be respectable on a training level and the human level at the same time. He is a highly credible horseman who many successful riders here and in the States owe and it is highly inappropriate to even discuss him up here when the self-appointed critiques haven't even the slightest hint of what his work it about let alone what he's doing at home.

True, it has to do with the globalization of dressage (just about any idiot can ride) and putting on the training as fast as possible so the horses can be sold.

Theo, Ravel hasn't been rolkur trained, you can see from his walk and general overall expression. So I don't know what you mean by TOP trainers, I suppose you are also excluding Balkenhol.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Jul. 13, 2009, 01:16 PM
Thanks to the OP. If it's to the well-being of the horse, stuff like that must be brought up. And what's disappointing is that some of you think this is funny.

nhwr
Jul. 13, 2009, 01:16 PM
If these ODG's are so good why do all topriders of this new ERA don't want them as a trainer. IMHO Siegi posted what everybody thinks, but it seems they don't have the guts to say it.If I am not mistaken, von Ziegner was involved in eventing in his younger days, he is not strictly a dressage person. As such I think he might bring a valuable, possibly alternate, perspective to dressage.

As far as him working with lower level riders, I don't if that is strictly true. But if it is, so what? Not everyone hungers for the spotlight. von Zieger is at an age and place in his life that he can certainly focus on what he enjoys without having to offer explanations to anyone, especially us keyboard jockeys. Why would working to establish a correct basis of dressage be considered a problem?

Kareen
Jul. 13, 2009, 01:38 PM
Thank you. It's amazing to me how many people speak up here spreading their unfounded opinions about people they have never ridden with not even seen ride themselves. It really disgusts me to see the lifelong work and merits of personalities like Colonel von Ziegner dragged into the dirt by folk who seem to have never done anything themselves and just can't stop yapping about others. Shameful.

egontoast
Jul. 13, 2009, 01:51 PM
Theo, Ravel hasn't been rolkur trained, you can see from his walk and general overall expression

Oh good grief. You can't possible know this from your observations of his walk and general overall impression.

Antaeus
Jul. 13, 2009, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=slc2;4231668]cdfhorses has one post, made this morning, and joined the day before the one post. ...Quote]

Thanks for that, slc2. as I've been wondering: Is there an unwritten rule on this forum that newbies can't bump up an old post if they have something to say about it? I'm pretty new here myself and I don't always check the date of the original post. Just want to get an idea of the hidden agenda so I can have my flame suit out and be prepared for the snarky comments if I should bring up something the old timers are tired of discussing. Of course, they could just skip the thread...

egontoast
Jul. 13, 2009, 02:42 PM
Is there an unwritten rule on this forum that newbies can't bump up an old post if they have something to say about it?

No. it's better to revive the thread than to start a new one on the same subject. See, for example, the HEEELLLP!!! EMERGENCY!!! thread in Around the Farm where the mods merged an update with an old thread.

Ambrey
Jul. 13, 2009, 02:51 PM
However, if it's an old thread that you feel negatively reflects on someone, you need to remember that reviving the thread to defend them also brings more readers to the accusations you're defending them against.

There's a thread in Off Course about a shipping company that is revived semi-annually for the shipper to defend against the accusations in the OP- Not Smart.

freestyle2music
Jul. 13, 2009, 03:12 PM
Oh good grief. You can't possible know this from your observations of his walk and general overall impression.

YES they can... Keyboard riders know everything :D. Allthough they never watched one single trainingsession of these riders or any other rider, they know exactly what is happening in the world of dressage. They also know exactly was is good or what is wrong. And... above all they know exactly what is happening behind closed doors. WHY... because they have this dust covered books from all these ODG's who worked with horses from another century. Horses which were in the middle of their evolution between working horse, war horse, cart horse and today's top sport horses.

Every sport in the world has developed and is still developing but in dressage they all want that the world stops turning.

sm
Jul. 13, 2009, 04:20 PM
Oh good grief. You can't possible know this from your observations of his walk and general overall impression.

Speak for yourself. Compare Sallie's walk and Ravel's. Purity of gait plus neck extension. Do you really think Sallie's breeders didn't start him out with three good gaits? If you still don't know the answer, than ask or research Peters. See if he endorses it and trains that way.

Nice move Theo. You'd obviously can't defend your TOP trainers comment regarding Balkenhol, so you choose a personal attack instead. Typical, and boring.

nhwr
Jul. 13, 2009, 04:21 PM
Horses which were in the middle of their evolution between working horse, war horse, cart horse and today's top sport horses.

Every sport in the world has developed and is still developing but in dressage they all want that the world stops turning. Evolution is a process that occurs over millennia. It is unlikely that horses as a species have changed all that much in the last 100 years. And the most important characteristic in the training of a dressage horse - its mind - hasn't really changed at all. The principles of training (good and bad) weren't developed recently in the Netherlands. They have been well established for centuries. There is very little new under the sun. What has changed is the ability of people to communicate easily, to discuss ideas, share information and see the results. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a radical paradigm shift has occurred.

It would be foolish to disregard the knowledge and experience that has bought us to this point. But I don't suppose that will stop some people :lol:

Ambrey
Jul. 13, 2009, 04:33 PM
So we've already established that Edward Gal brought Ravel to FEI levels. Are you saying he is not a user of Rollkur or that he just coincidentally didn't use Rollkur on Ravel?

freestyle2music
Jul. 13, 2009, 04:59 PM
Speak for yourself. Compare Sallie's walk and Ravel's. Purity of gait plus neck extension. Do you really think Sallie's breeders didn't start him out with three good gaits? If you still don't know the answer, than ask or research Peters. See if he endorses it and trains that way.

Nice move Theo. You'd obviously can't defend your TOP trainers comment regarding Balkenhol, so you choose a personal attack instead. Typical, and boring.

The best move of SP was to ask the assistance of Johan Hinneman instead of Klaus Balkenholl for Aachen. :lol:

Kareen
Jul. 13, 2009, 05:39 PM
He did not. Last time I saw Edward Gal on the horse it didn't even manage to do a single balanced flying change, not with him or anyone else aboard. Even the more applause goes to Steffen P. from my end for getting to where he is today with this horse in comparatively short time.

Ambrey
Jul. 13, 2009, 06:13 PM
He did not. Last time I saw Edward Gal on the horse it didn't even manage to do a single balanced flying change, not with him or anyone else aboard. Even the more applause goes to Steffen P. from my end for getting to where he is today with this horse in comparatively short time.

Hmm, you might want to weigh in on the thread on Ravel's breeding, where it was said that Edward Gal had Ravel through I1.

egontoast
Jul. 13, 2009, 06:28 PM
Speak for yourself. Compare Sallie's walk and Ravel's. Purity of gait plus neck extension. Do you really think Sallie's breeders didn't start him out with three good gaits? If you still don't know the answer, than ask or research Peters. See if he endorses it and trains that way.



Delusions of grandeur much? There are many things that may make two horses have different walks. You are taking a big leap there to line up the ducks how you want them to be, blaming all the flaws YOU see on one training method..Ever hear of the scientific method?

Just because you say it , does not make it true.

freestyle2music
Jul. 13, 2009, 06:49 PM
He did not. Last time I saw Edward Gal on the horse it didn't even manage to do a single balanced flying change, not with him or anyone else aboard. Even the more applause goes to Steffen P. from my end for getting to where he is today with this horse in comparatively short time.

Wow...... did you see Edward Gal riding Ravel ?
You must be sooooooo lucky :D
Do you mind that I don't believe one word of this :no::no:

SP must have been joined by Nostradamus when he spend so much money
on a horse having so much problems :D

Karoline
Jul. 13, 2009, 07:31 PM
I1 is not I2 or GP. Would the horse had been sold if his owner and rider thought he could be such a winner? Especially considering he is such a young horse? He seems to be only getting better an better. It seems with how incredibly competitive and nationalistic the international dressage scene appears to be (even just by reading Theo's posts one can feel the tension between countries) selling a winner to another country is an odd move. A good horse yes, a horse who may well be the first gold medal at the next olympics? Well, anyway, its the US gain.

And Theo, why not simply ask where Kareen saw Gal instead of implying she is lying? And, SP did not buy the horse, Akiko Yamazaki did. What does Nostradamus have to do with it?

Enderle
Jul. 13, 2009, 07:41 PM
Would the horse had been sold if his owner and rider thought he could be such a winner?
If the buyer is able to see the same and is willing to pay the price?
Of course the horse will be sold. :yes: Money makes the world go round. Like it or not. :lol:

Karoline
Jul. 13, 2009, 07:43 PM
Yes money makes the world go around alright. Lucky for Akiko, SP, Ravel and the USA :-)

Enderle
Jul. 13, 2009, 07:46 PM
Well, Totilas is not for sale. So let's see what happens in London 2012. :cool:
:D

freestyle2music
Jul. 13, 2009, 07:56 PM
I1 is not I2 or GP. Would the horse had been sold if his owner and rider thought he could be such a winner? Especially considering he is such a young horse? He seems to be only getting better an better. It seems with how incredibly competitive and nationalistic the international dressage scene appears to be (even just by reading Theo's posts one can feel the tension between countries) selling a winner to another country is an odd move. A good horse yes, a horse who may well be the first gold medal at the next olympics? Well, anyway, its the US gain.

And Theo, why not simply ask where Kareen saw Gal instead of implying she is lying? And, SP did not buy the horse, Akiko Yamazaki did. What does Nostradamus have to do with it?

What planet are you coming from ?????

Akiko Yamazaki did buy this horse, because by coincidense he found this horse laying between his sushi's. :D

MidlifeCrisis
Jul. 13, 2009, 08:05 PM
Akiko Yamazaki did buy this horse, because by coincidense he found this horse laying between his sushi's. :D

Is that supposed to be a racist comment?
Akiko is a she, not a he. Born and raised in Costa Rica.
Try not to be so ignorant, Theo.

Ambrey
Jul. 13, 2009, 08:14 PM
I1 is not I2 or GP.

No, but last I heard there were changes required!

Karoline
Jul. 13, 2009, 10:36 PM
Yes and as Kareen explained in the breeding thread the changes she witnessed with E.Gal /other riders onboard were not the beautiful ones Ravel produces under SP. She did not say he did not do FC just that they were not balanced.

And Theo, sometimes I wonder how for someone so "plugged in" you can be so ignorant. As someone else pointed out, Akiko is a woman, and a very nice rider to boot.

Ambrey
Jul. 13, 2009, 10:42 PM
Well, you will get no argument about Steffan's skill from me :)

Sabine
Jul. 14, 2009, 01:32 AM
Yes and as Kareen explained in the breeding thread the changes she witnessed with E.Gal /other riders onboard were not the beautiful ones Ravel produces under SP. She did not say he did not do FC just that they were not balanced.

And Theo, sometimes I wonder how for someone so "plugged in" you can be so ignorant. As someone else pointed out, Akiko is a woman, and a very nice rider to boot.

Ravel was a stallion when he was sold to Akiko and she purchased him - as the wife of the YAHOO founder and gave him to Steffen (notice spelling - please!!!) to train. The horse had an issue during or after transport and was gelded. After that he had severe issues with his shoeing/hooves and needed to grow out his feet. Steffen did an amazing job- getting the horse well with his staff and training the horse to the level he is now competing at. There was never a doubt that the horse was extremely talented and he sold for a lot of $$$. However the quality of top world performance Steffen is able to create time after time- is beyond what anyone expected and thus a true great HURRAY/PROSIT or whatever goes out to Steffen...and his staff and his wife who all helped make this happen.

freestyle2music
Jul. 14, 2009, 08:57 AM
Ravel was a stallion when he was sold to Akiko and she purchased him - as the wife of the YAHOO founder and gave him to Steffen (notice spelling - please!!!) to train. The horse had an issue during or after transport and was gelded. After that he had severe issues with his shoeing/hooves and needed to grow out his feet. Steffen did an amazing job- getting the horse well with his staff and training the horse to the level he is now competing at. There was never a doubt that the horse was extremely talented and he sold for a lot of $$$. However the quality of top world performance Steffen is able to create time after time- is beyond what anyone expected and thus a true great HURRAY/PROSIT or whatever goes out to Steffen...and his staff and his wife who all helped make this happen.

Could it be that SP did such a wonderfull job because he didn't spend countless hours on BB's and dressage forums :D

sm
Jul. 14, 2009, 12:16 PM
Delusions of grandeur much? There are many things that may make two horses have different walks. You are taking a big leap there to line up the ducks how you want them to be, blaming all the flaws YOU see on one training method..Ever hear of the scientific method?

Just because you say it , does not make it true.

Might want to look at some studies. One by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann, "there is footage from various events around the world that provides evidence of the complete lack of walk in some Grand Prix horses, 'spectacular' leg actions and stiff and tense backs" http://www.thehorsestudio.com/dvdifhorsescouldspeak.html

Interested in hearing your point of view on how Sal's walk is so bad: Do you think he started out that way and people said, "yes let's take that horse to GP", or was it trained in?

egontoast
Jul. 14, 2009, 12:36 PM
Interested in hearing your point of view on how Sal's walk is so bad:

:confused: That's weird. I expressed no such view.

If you really wish to debate these things you need to be more honest about what others have said instead of making stuff up. I said :



There are many things that may make two horses have different walks. You are taking a big leap there to line up the ducks how you want them to be, blaming all the flaws YOU see on one training method.


emphasis added

Get it? "different walks" and " flaws YOU see.", I even capitalized YOU so YOU would not miss it.;)

sm
Jul. 14, 2009, 02:53 PM
:confused: That's weird. I expressed no such view.

I never wrote you did. However, check out the JUDGES scores on his walks. Check out the videos of his walk. Check out Dr. Gerd Heuschmann's connection, as just one source, between walks and hardcore rollkur trained.

Or don't check it out, suit yourself. But it's clearly not just flaws I see.

Mike Matson
Jul. 14, 2009, 04:46 PM
As the OP, good to see Colonel Ziegner's words are timeless. :)

Pony Fixer
Jul. 14, 2009, 04:54 PM
So how does that explain the GP horses with $hitty walks that have not been rollkur trained? I don't know anyone who trains with rollkur, and I agree there are a lot of bad walks out there in tests....

Seems to me, a tenser personalitied horse (did I just make up a word?) might not have a good walk in a test, even if they do at home (my horse, for instance). Maybe, just maybe, Salinero is a little hot and tense? And maybe Ravel isn't?

Karoline
Jul. 15, 2009, 12:28 AM
Could it be that SP did such a wonderfull job because he didn't spend countless hours on BB's and dressage forums :D

Uh, like you do?

Fixerupper
Jul. 15, 2009, 12:48 AM
Just saying...I'd get a lot more excited about 'hyperflexion' (or whatever you want to call it) if I hadn't seen so many horses use it as an evasion...!!!

Like spurs, whips, curb bits...it's either a training tool or an abuse...it depends on how it is used. Yes... I know... there are those that believe all of the above are always abusive..bless their hearts...but there is a difference. It isn't so much what you use as how you use it...:D

spotted mustang
Jul. 15, 2009, 04:46 AM
Zwangsjacke

..and we were just figuring out how to pronounce "Rollkur".

Kareen
Jul. 15, 2009, 04:52 AM
to our dressage-goddess (pardon god but you seem to not put a lot of emphasis on correctness when addressing people on this board such as the owner of Ravel ;) ):

Not that I feel I have to justify or explain myself to you but if you had made the effort to actually read what I wrote you would know I'd merely seen a tape of Ravel when he was for sale here. I think I returned it right away as the client I was looking for ended up buying a rising 6yo for less than half of what they were asking for Ravel at the time and while I did not that SP was on the lookout for another horse I realised there was no point moving it on to him as he has known and done business with the Reesinks for a long time and I have no intention to interfer with anyone's preexisting business relationships.
I remember looking at the tape in June 2006 as it was right after I had returned from a trip to the US and Canada. The reason I am sure about the timing is because I was about 5 months pregnant with my youngest daughter at the time of the trip who is an end of October 2006 model and I have vivid memories of frequent visits to several Olympians' barn toilets on that trip admiring the setup because their restrooms are so much nicer and all had clean cotton towels much different than your average European barn-restroom where you have to cope with rough papertowels if you get lucky *LOL*. So much for the myth of morning sickness (should be called consistent pregnancy sickness really). So the tape I watched around June and it showed Edward Gal riding the horse in a training session in an evidently Dutch indoor. I believe the horse was sold to his present owners in the fall of that year so between the tape and the sale there can't have been much room to improve or establish training. And yes his changes were a disaster (that doesn't exclude the horse from having a show record at Inter I as we all know there are shows you can take your horse to if you need it to obtain just 'a ribbon' in any given FEI class to satisfy some sellers or buyers needs).
I honestly have no clue what and where Ravel's placings had been at the time but to be quite honest when I look at a horse, the show record is only of marginal interest to me as I am way more interested in the present state and soundness background than whether or not it had some FEI level ribbon stuck to his browband some time in the past. Afterall it's not a ribbon or a full show record the buyer will ride :)

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I never said anywhere I witnessed Edward Gal riding Ravel in person but merely that I had seen him ride the horse. As it was a sales tape and edited quite a lot I would assume these were the better moments so that leaves plenty of room to speculate just how much work SP has put into Ravel since he got him home (especially considering the horse had some layup post arrival caused by whatever quarantine issue there was). I didn't pay much attention since and I openly admit I didn't believe someone would fix those changes and undo the yank and spank riding displayed in the tape I had been sent. Sales tapes sent out get passed on that's one of the reasons owners of upper level horses have become very reluctant to even bother doing them.
Most dressage barns have had tapes travel the world and in fact come back full circle offering horses that they were riding and training themselves and trying to sell.

As far as sales motivation goes: I think we're safe to assume that Reesinks would have sold him inside Holland, Germany or any other European country if any of them brilliant, current, oh so modern dressage gods had seen in the horse what Mr. Reesink saw in it.
If for instance the wise, friendly, polite and extremely horse-savvy Dutch National Trainer had believed this particular horse had it in him to become the next Salinero or whatever else superstar horse there is at present why didn't he buy it when the qualities were so evident *LOL*.
Nono there's no way around it that Mr. Reesink and Steffen Peters did spot his talent when pretty much all the European big fish did not (or didn't find the sponsor to cough up the money in time) and it was Steffen Peters riding alone that converted the horse into the world class GP horse he is today so he and Mr. Reesink and of course the horses' breeder are the ones my Kudos go to (not that they would know or care but this is a public bulletin board so whoever wants to can write their opinion not just the keyboard-kings of the world ;)
That'll be the last thing I have to say about this matter and no I am not going to chime in on the Ravel breeding thread as I have plenty of other things on my mind and can very well do without being attacked and accused of lying by someone nasty who's life seems to be a screen.

Going4Gold
Jul. 15, 2009, 09:51 AM
Kareen or whatever your real name is.

Get used to the fact that Germany has become a banana republic in the dressage world.

ridgeback
Jul. 15, 2009, 10:14 AM
to our dressage-goddess (pardon god but you seem to not put a lot of emphasis on correctness when addressing people on this board such as the owner of Ravel ;) ):

Not that I feel I have to justify or explain myself to you but if you had made the effort to actually read what I wrote you would know I'd merely seen a tape of Ravel when he was for sale here. I think I returned it right away as the client I was looking for ended up buying a rising 6yo for less than half of what they were asking for Ravel at the time and while I did not that SP was on the lookout for another horse I realised there was no point moving it on to him as he has known and done business with the Reesinks for a long time and I have no intention to interfer with anyone's preexisting business relationships.
I remember looking at the tape in June 2006 as it was right after I had returned from a trip to the US and Canada. The reason I am sure about the timing is because I was about 5 months pregnant with my youngest daughter at the time of the trip who is an end of October 2006 model and I have vivid memories of frequent visits to several Olympians' barn toilets on that trip admiring the setup because their restrooms are so much nicer and all had clean cotton towels much different than your average European barn-restroom where you have to cope with rough papertowels if you get lucky *LOL*. So much for the myth of morning sickness (should be called consistent pregnancy sickness really). So the tape I watched around June and it showed Edward Gal riding the horse in a training session in an evidently Dutch indoor. I believe the horse was sold to his present owners in the fall of that year so between the tape and the sale there can't have been much room to improve or establish training. And yes his changes were a disaster (that doesn't exclude the horse from having a show record at Inter I as we all know there are shows you can take your horse to if you need it to obtain just 'a ribbon' in any given FEI class to satisfy some sellers or buyers needs).
I honestly have no clue what and where Ravel's placings had been at the time but to be quite honest when I look at a horse, the show record is only of marginal interest to me as I am way more interested in the present state and soundness background than whether or not it had some FEI level ribbon stuck to his browband some time in the past. Afterall it's not a ribbon or a full show record the buyer will ride :)

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I never said anywhere I witnessed Edward Gal riding Ravel in person but merely that I had seen him ride the horse. As it was a sales tape and edited quite a lot I would assume these were the better moments so that leaves plenty of room to speculate just how much work SP has put into Ravel since he got him home (especially considering the horse had some layup post arrival caused by whatever quarantine issue there was). I didn't pay much attention since and I openly admit I didn't believe someone would fix those changes and undo the yank and spank riding displayed in the tape I had been sent. Sales tapes sent out get passed on that's one of the reasons owners of upper level horses have become very reluctant to even bother doing them.
Most dressage barns have had tapes travel the world and in fact come back full circle offering horses that they were riding and training themselves and trying to sell.

As far as sales motivation goes: I think we're safe to assume that Reesinks would have sold him inside Holland, Germany or any other European country if any of them brilliant, current, oh so modern dressage gods had seen in the horse what Mr. Reesink saw in it.
If for instance the wise, friendly, polite and extremely horse-savvy Dutch National Trainer had believed this particular horse had it in him to become the next Salinero or whatever else superstar horse there is at present why didn't he buy it when the qualities were so evident *LOL*.
Nono there's no way around it that Mr. Reesink and Steffen Peters did spot his talent when pretty much all the European big fish did not (or didn't find the sponsor to cough up the money in time) and it was Steffen Peters riding alone that converted the horse into the world class GP horse he is today so he and Mr. Reesink and of course the horses' breeder are the ones my Kudos go to (not that they would know or care but this is a public bulletin board so whoever wants to can write their opinion not just the keyboard-kings of the world ;)
That'll be the last thing I have to say about this matter and no I am not going to chime in on the Ravel breeding thread as I have plenty of other things on my mind and can very well do without being attacked and accused of lying by someone nasty who's life seems to be a screen.


:yes::yes: