Rollkur - Out; Zwangsjacke - In!

[freestyle2music]

What a huge collection of nonsens. I don't even take the time to answer to so much stupidity. And please get your records straight before you start barking.

And for me the owner of Ravel is the one who signed the cheque <hahaha>

[Moll]

So how does that explain the GP horses with $hitty walks that have not been rollkur trained? I don't know anyone who trains with rollkur, and I agree there are a lot of bad walks out there in tests....

The surefire way to ruin the walk is to teach the horse early on (or later) that it cannot move its head from side to side in the walk by fixing your hands. Doesn't need Rollkur to ruin a walk.

Edited to add: a very collected horse won't move its head much at all at the walk. It's a result of collection though - preventing the natural head movement doesn't produce collection.

[sm]

As far as sales motivation goes: I think we're safe to assume that Reesinks would have sold him inside Holland, Germany or any other European country if any of them brilliant, current, oh so modern dressage gods had seen in the horse what Mr. Reesink saw in it.
If for instance the wise, friendly, polite and extremely horse-savvy Dutch National Trainer had believed this particular horse had it in him to become the next Salinero or whatever else superstar horse there is at present why didn't he buy it when the qualities were so evident *LOL*.
Nono there's no way around it that Mr. Reesink and Steffen Peters did spot his talent when pretty much all the European big fish did not (or didn't find the sponsor to cough up the money in time) and it was Steffen Peters riding alone that converted the horse into the world class GP horse....


Yes. I've heard from countless WB breeders in the US that neither NL or GER let the best horses leave their country. To a person, they tell me the US always gets the leftovers. Clearly, a different training routine suited Ravel.

[egontoast]

Clearly, a different training routine suited Ravel

insert rolly eyes

or gee maybe castration suited him.

I don't see how you can discredit all his training before GP. If it was as hellish as you would have us all believe, he would surely have been ruined, no?

Surely both EG and SP deserve some credit for this horse's training.

[Moll]

The surefire way to ruin the walk is to teach the horse early on (or later) that it cannot move its head from side to side in the walk by fixing your hands. Doesn't need Rollkur to ruin a walk.

Edited to add: a very collected horse won't move its head much at all at the walk. It's a result of collection though - preventing the natural head movement doesn't produce collection.

I found the quotation I was looking for:

"Ask the rider to observe the horse as it walks. It moves its neck, which serves as a counter-balance, just as we swing out arms when we walk. The horse uses its neck in this way during the walk and the canter. It holds its neck in a fixed position only when trotting. Consequently, only at the trot should the rider keep his hands immobile. At the walk and the canter they must move, in order not to hinder the horse's neck movements and its locomotion."

Anybody know who wrote that?

[freestyle2music]

I found the quotation I was looking for:

"Ask the rider to observe the horse as it walks. It moves its neck, which serves as a counter-balance, just as we swing out arms when we walk. The horse uses its neck in this way during the walk and the canter. It holds its neck in a fixed position only when trotting. Consequently, only at the trot should the rider keep his hands immobile. At the walk and the canter they must move, in order not to hinder the horse's neck movements and its locomotion."

Anybody know who wrote that?

Do you ride or train yourself :confused:

Or are you still planning ?

[sm]

I don't see how you can discredit all his training before GP. If it was as hellish as you would have us all believe....

Show me: where did I write that? ROFLMAO, you need to take your own advice:

If you really wish to debate these things you need to be more honest about what others have said instead of making stuff up. ;)

[egontoast]

My goodness, sm, you certainly like to argue.:lol:

I meant 'you' plural but my mistake was including your quote which lead to your obvious confusion. Somehow I expect that's not the end of it though.:lol:

[sm]

well, I could ask where did anyone write that :) but I won't :sleepy:

SP is wonderful, we can probably all agree on that. I just love watching him...

[bort84]

I found the quotation I was looking for:

"Ask the rider to observe the horse as it walks. It moves its neck, which serves as a counter-balance, just as we swing out arms when we walk. The horse uses its neck in this way during the walk and the canter. It holds its neck in a fixed position only when trotting. Consequently, only at the trot should the rider keep his hands immobile. At the walk and the canter they must move, in order not to hinder the horse's neck movements and its locomotion."

Anybody know who wrote that?

I'm confused... I mean, that's a pretty standard teaching. I'm pretty sure I read a passage similar to that in Podhajsky's book, but that's something most riders implement (perhaps without realizing it?). Certainly as the collection goes up, there is less movement, but your hands always have to be sympathetic and going with the movement at the walk and canter (and at the trot too, though there's less movement). If you look at the amount of movement in the horse's head at a free walk as compared to a collected walk, you can see there's a big difference, but I don't think anyone knowledgable would say your hands shouldn't have to move at all at the walk and canter. Your hands and arms can't ever really be immobile and be sympathetic at the same time.

I guess I'm just wondering why this quote was posted. Was someone arguing the opposite?

[slc2]

As dressage-type collection increases over time in the progressing horse, the amount of motion of the head/neck decrease at the walk and canter, the hips of the horse also bob up and down less because the hind legs bend more and carry more, due to increased suppleness and strength, so the rider in general can be more still at the collected gaits.

I've always been taught, even in hunt seat in less collected gaits, to hold the hands 'still' in the trot which is different from 'immobile' or 'fixed'; still is relative, for example, if the horse reaches out its neck to go over a jump and needs to stretch its neck.

The horse's head/neck do not make the same type of balancing gestures at trot, as they do at walk, canter.

The quote above is standard for all riding disciplines, but being 'all giving' can wind one up with an off balance horse that is not collected and doesn't accept the bit; there is a middle ground.

There is also even at the top levels where the hand is more still, a certain amount of give, but it is not giving 2 feet of rein, but maintaining a connection with a slight give and requisite softness.

[ridgeback]

My goodness, sm, you certainly like to argue.:lol:



Pot meet kettle.:lol::lol:

[ridgeback]

What a huge collection of nonsens. I don't even take the time to answer to so much stupidity. And please get your records straight before you start barking.

And for me the owner of Ravel is the one who signed the cheque <hahaha>

This is Theo's answer when he cannot admit his own stupidity.

[bort84]

As dressage-type collection increases over time in the progressing horse, the amount of motion of the head/neck decrease at the walk and canter, the hips of the horse also bob up and down less because the hind legs bend more and carry more, due to increased suppleness and strength, so the rider in general can be more still at the collected gaits.

I've always been taught, even in hunt seat in less collected gaits, to hold the hands 'still' in the trot which is different from 'immobile' or 'fixed'; still is relative, for example, if the horse reaches out its neck to go over a jump and needs to stretch its neck.

The horse's head/neck do not make the same type of balancing gestures at trot, as they do at walk, canter.

The quote above is standard for all riding disciplines, but being 'all giving' can wind one up with an off balance horse that is not collected and doesn't accept the bit; there is a middle ground.

There is also even at the top levels where the hand is more still, a certain amount of give, but it is not giving 2 feet of rein, but maintaining a connection with a slight give and requisite softness.

Exactly. My post may not have been completely clear when I said you need to have a sympathetic hand. Obviously there are times where you will need to change that during the training process. And the trot is a smoother gait as far as body motion goes, so the hands can be more "still."

Again, that's always been held as standard by anyone I've ridden with or respected as a rider. I guess that's why I was wondering why it was posted as a response... Was there a debate going on I missed?

[egontoast]

Pot meet kettle

That's rather droll coming from Ma Potkettle herself.

[ridgeback]

That's rather droll coming from Ma Potkettle herself.

Please give me an example...you can't:no::no::no: No argument from me but will point out when people can't read. :)

[egontoast]

You just gave an example. THANKS!:)

[bort84]

Haha, looks like both of you might fit the description = ) I suppose Rollkur threads will do that to the best of us!

[egontoast]

Yes, but you , the borted one, seem to be a little more sane than most!:)

[ridgeback]

Yes, but you , the borted one, seem to be a little more sane than most!:)

Borte not that you aren't but consider the source;) just kidding

[Moll]

Do you ride or train yourself :confused:

Or are you still planning ?

No, of course not, who do you take me for? I've never even seen a horse in real life.

With the second round of chemo starting, no. I had to sell my horses. More computer time, yoo-hoo...

[slc2]

I think it is utterly ridiculous to see one ride and decide that's entirely what was going on with that rider and horse. How absolutely unfair and inaccurate can one be?

Day before yesterday, I watched a friend ride her horse, and it was a complete and utter ass, and she didn't look so hot either. He couldn't have been worse. He went all the way thru the entire ride without ever actually bending or ever doing anything anyone would call 'good'. Doing a 20 m circle at a working canter was 'too advanced'. The next day, they were going around doing flying lead changes, counter canter, lateral work, collected work, half steps, after starting the ride with beautiful correct stretching. Absolutely stunning.

Strong, fit, athletically correct horses not only 'do great work', they also have very obviously bad days. They can be tense one day, over fresh, and come out and jig around like a sewing machine, and their resistances are just as athletic and big as their good work is - and on one day a horse and rider can look very - ah - unappealing and it can mean nothing.

K. knows better than to evaluate a trainer based on one ride, so I don't know why she's doing that here. Possibly simply showing her bias against Gal, and seeing that ride through 'black colored glasses', because that's what she WANTS it to be. It's a real shame when one sees through a filter.

When I look at the top riders, when comparing them to each other, we do see differences. I may prefer the look of one rider over another, but I also realize, that most of them are extremely capable of training a horse up through the levels, even if I prefer the finished picture of one over the other, I am quite sure that's true.

We have some very strong but embarrassing biases here - Gal rode Ravel poorly and Steffen got him and in 18 months miraculously wiped out all Gal's horrific bad riding, bull, people, bull. And impossible, to be sure. Ravel was a very green GP horse when he went to the Olympics and Steffen had had him relatively very little time at that point - if that previous training hadn't been extremely beneficial, he never would have done as well as he did at the Olympics.

It's no slouch to ready a well trained horse for higher level work at GP at the big shows, either. BOTH trainers are excellent and did a fantastic job preparing this horse.

Training is not about giving someone a lovely impression on any given day. Horses have bad days, riders have bad days, and things have to be fixed. Horses are not robots that come out and always do everything perfectly. One has to see the training over time, to make any pronouncements.

Too, many upper level horses have their basic training by someone else, then the horse is sold and continues to advance, IF the earlier training was sound. It is completely ridiculous as well to pretend the earlier training was nothing; we see far, far too much of that here. Face it, folks, from one ride, you can tell NOTHING of the trainer's effect on the horse, and if someone else takes the horse and shows it successfully at Aachen, at the Olympics and everywhere else, you can absolutely damn betcha that earlier training was no slouch. Upper level horses, especially great ones, are almost ALWAYS the product of more than one trainer's efforts over years. And to turn a blind eye to what the earlier training was and to not give credit where credit is due is the mark of the tyro, not the insightful wise sage.

[egontoast]

it's the Hallmark Movie of the Week effect

Our Hero (Good Guy) takes the poor broken down sadlly misunderstood horse (Black Beauty) that was Horribly trained by the Evil person from The Rolkurlands (Bad Guy) and whose brilliant potential was overlooked by the stupid evil Big Shots from said Rollkurlands (More Bad Guys) and so on blahblahblah .... Happy ending of course.

Good triumphs over Evil once again!:lol:

[bort84]

Such entertainment on the COTH forums! = )

[freestyle2music]

it's the Hallmark Movie of the Week effect

Our Hero (Good Guy) takes the poor broken down sadlly misunderstood horse (Black Beauty) that was Horribly trained by the Evil person from The Rolkurlands (Bad Guy) and whose brilliant potential was overlooked by the stupid evil Big Shots from said Rollkurlands (More Bad Guys) and so on blahblahblah .... Happy ending of course.

Good triumphs over Evil once again!:lol:

Maybee we should ask Steven Spielberg to make a movie out of this :lol:

This stupid Edward, first he sold his tophorse Lingh and then Ravel, and now he is only left with Totilas and..........:D

More episodes to come. Anky selling Salinero and having to take him back because nobody could ride him. Olympic Ferro was refused by 3 riders before Coby and Johan found the G-spot ;). and...and....

[Enderle]

it's the Hallmark Movie of the Week effect

Our Hero (Good Guy) takes the poor broken down sadlly misunderstood horse (Black Beauty) that was Horribly trained by the Evil person from The Rolkurlands (Bad Guy) and whose brilliant potential was overlooked by the stupid evil Big Shots from said Rollkurlands (More Bad Guys) and so on blahblahblah .... Happy ending of course.

Good triumphs over Evil once again!:lol:
*rofl*

[sm]

it's the Hallmark Movie of the Week effect

Our Hero (Good Guy) takes the poor broken down sadlly misunderstood horse (Black Beauty) that was Horribly trained by the Evil person from The Rolkurlands (Bad Guy) and whose brilliant potential was overlooked by the stupid evil Big Shots from said Rollkurlands (More Bad Guys) and so on blahblahblah .... Happy ending of course.

Good triumphs over Evil once again!:lol:

hey Egg On, you've got a couple typos: you don't mean bad guy, try bad Gal. Also, that's Disney's format, not Hallmark. Hallmark puts out another genre entirely. *sigh* amateurs!!!

[PennyChrome]

Keep it Classic!

[freestyle2music]

Keep it Classic!

WHY ????????

[sm]

I can't name any other sport where an athlete's free walk is purposely ruined -- and it's considered a good thing.

[egontoast]

Originally Posted by PennyChrome http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=4245141#post4245141)
Keep it Classic!
WHY ????????

relax. Could be wrong but I think she means Classic Hallmark movie not ODGs on fat white pony Classic.

Of course, according to s&M today everyone who competes (Le BAd Guy) purposely aims to ruin the walk.
:lol::lol::lol:

It's adorable that no one replied to that remark for several hours but it was too funny to ignore completely.