Hoof Critique/Help *PICTURES* *Pg10 Farrier Came!* [Archive]

KrazyTBMare

May. 25, 2006, 02:17 AM

God, I hate to be the 274328576435 person to do this, but I really am a touch concerned. I really will admit, I dont know much about hoof structure, etc. I have tried really hard to educate myself, and while brushing my mares tail tonight, I really noticed a big difference. Ok, so I havent looked good and HARD at her feet, but standing behind her, theres SUCH a difference with her heels from the LF and RF.

So.. I get on the floor.. in my work clothes (b/c I go see her after work when I get off at 10pm) and take pics with my cell phone b/c I am concerned. Ill link them and label them as they are out of order in my album.

Right Front, level, straight on
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062241.jpg

Right Front, solar, straight on top
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062243.jpg

Right Front, I dont know the name, but its where you look down to see if the hoof is level.. lol :blush:
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062243a.jpg

Right front, side shot, level on ground
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062246.jpg

Left Front, level, straight on
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062242.jpg

Left front, solar, dead on top
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062244.jpg

Left Front, that level shot again...
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062244a.jpg

Left Front, level, side
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062245a.jpg

Left Hind, straight on, level
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062245.jpg

Left hind, solar, right on top
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062246a.jpg

Left hind, side, level
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062247.jpg

And my dummy butt just realize, while having to delete pics from my phone.. I FORGOT to get straight on and solar shots of her RH
Ugh.

Heres the side shot
Right Hind, side, level
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0524062248.jpg

Let me also include this info:

11yo TB mare

When OLD farrier was shodding her, she was in a II (isnt that double ought). When I moved to trainers, current farrier worked on her. Got her to a size 1 and we put her in aluminums as she moves much better and seems more comfy in them. Had to have her in heel wedges and LF with wedge pad as well as previous farrier had her LF about 1" shorter than RF. Was great for yr. When I had to move barns (had to quit working student position due to college and couldnt afford board at trainers barn) I moved to another barn and allowed another farrier to work on her. This is when she started getting thrush all the time and had very tender feet. I took pics (around Dec 05) and posted them on here. Was told she had contracted and under run heels.

Was finally able to move and able to get ahold of farrier trainer uses. Hes done her 2 times since (hoof is NOT growing.. its SO dry here) but he did put her in a wedge in Jan on LF b/c she was off again. Her feet started looking a lot better and no thrush and the frogs werent all peeling and mushy. She went from Jan 30th to Aprilish before she had enough foot to trim (and the shoes were worn). She had "grown enough heel that she didnt need the wedges anymore and was able to be in a flat aluminum shoe" according to farrier. When I used him at my trainers, he was very methodical, would watch the horse move, be ridden, lunged etc. Now, b/c he has to go to a different barn than my trainer (like 5 mins away from hers) and its just me and my friend, he just does his thing. I still think hes a good farrier, but she hasnt been done in about at LEAST 6 wks. I just noticed this difference. And it wasnt like this when he did her feet last.

So he is trying to clean up what the last farrier did.. but again.. its just seems to get better then worse and then better then worse again?

Now, is her foot growing like this (and I dont know which is "wrong" the RF with more heel and more upright or the LF with low heels and the heels really far under the hoof when you look from the side) due to trim, genetics, somthing else? Whats going on? B/c it was NOT like this when he did her, as shes grown, this has happened.

Let me preface, that again, I wasnt like magnifying and inspecting every inch of her feet but the height difference was not like this at all before. Is it that her RF is growing heel and her LF seems to be growing out than down?

HELP. :( Along with moving and selling the house and getting married, this is just another thing to worry about on my list.

spotted mustang

May. 25, 2006, 02:36 AM

I'm no great expert either, but her LF looks as though the heel is really collapsing backwards - I don't think that's too good. I'd ask the farrier to check on that.
My guy has very underslung heels in the front, and although he's always sound and the farrier has made it better, I'm constantly obsessing about it.

btw, I have this funny mental image of you on the barn floor with your cell phone, talking to your horse's feet...:)

Good luck with her!

KrazyTBMare

May. 25, 2006, 02:52 AM

HAH. Luckily I can wear jeans and a blouse or polo shirt to work lol so I wasnt in a 5 piece suit or anything! LOL But I know its important to get level pics and I was already COVERED in dirt and hair from grooming for 1 hr with the curry. LOL

Its def the LF Im concerned about. But also, with such a difference between the LF and RF, I want to hear opinions on the RF as well. What would cause a hoof to grow differently like this? Is the RF more correct? I know the LF is effed up! LOL ;)

ChocoMare

May. 25, 2006, 07:07 AM

For the technical stuff, Tree and SLB are better, but for a quick summary:

Front hooves: too much hoof/high heels. Heels are contracted (left is worse) and underrun. Unbalanced (higher outside). Left is quite flared from too much hoof.

Rear hooves: bull nosed, flaring

See attached "painted" photos. Tree/SLB/others...how close did I get?

cosmos mom

May. 25, 2006, 07:13 AM

Again, not an expert- she definitely still has a very long toe, and very long, underrun heels and contraction- the heels on the right look longer (and the left (?) siude looks longer than the right ) and the heel itself looks more contracted- the heels on the left are contracted and still too long, and the foot appears wider probably due to wall flare. I am not really sure about putting wedge pads on a horse with really long heels- I would seem to put the coffin bone at an even steeper angle, also, she is barefoot behind, so she has completely diffrent things going on if front vs. behind. She looks like everything needs to be brought back underneath her, shorter heel, shorter toe, bringing the center of gravity back over what should be the widest part of the frog. Her hind foot is also a bit long with underrun heels, wall flair and a bull nosed apperance on the front of the hoof wall. I would love to see her with a shorter, more balanced trim all the way around- I would also guess that it would be easier to achieve if she were left barefoot for a while (or for good if you can commit to it) and had more frequent trims to help shape her feet.

Tree

May. 25, 2006, 07:28 AM

It's a first for me to count 10 nails in one foot to hold a shoe on. Eight had been the max so far.

You know, if you've not already done so, please go to horseshoes.com and look for the forum that best suits your horse's problems. There are all sorts of forums for Farriers Helping Horse Owners over there. They would have a hay day with what is showing in your pics.

I can only speak from the standpoint of trimming for balance and function and don't like what the pics show. You've got medial/lateral imbalances, improper front to back balance (Anterial/posterial), uneven high heels being crushed under the horse's feet, bulb contraction (bulbs are shoved into one another and "kissing") and every nail hole in the shoes being filled.

A Farrier did this and I think you should go to other Farriers to begin to get a shoeing critique. I can only offer a trimming critique. It's bad.

Tree

ChocoMare

May. 25, 2006, 07:36 AM

LMH

May. 25, 2006, 07:36 AM

:eek: WOW.

wow.

When Tree is suggesting to go to the farrier forum for comments without making any of her own, my curiousity got me.

I don't even know where to begin.

May. 25, 2006, 07:41 AM

I can only offer a trimming critique. It's bad.

I agree, it's quite awful :no:

There is WAY too much foot overall. High heels, long toes. The LF at least looks somewhat symmetrical M/L. The RF though is inside high (not uncommon, unfortunately) and has caused the outside half of the foot to splay, as seen by the steeper inner wall, the more slanted outer wall (in the front shot) and the more foot outside the centerline of the frog (the solar shot).

The hinds are only slightly better. The LH is also inside high (again, not uncommon :() and the front of the wall is taking on a bullnose shape which alludes to a negative plane coffin bone. The RH has VERY underrun heels and the LH isn't much better.

I know you said the new farrier has only done this horse twice, but in my non-professional opinion, he's either not making progress in the right direction (ie getting those heels down and toes back) or the shape of the feet before he got hold of them were REALLY bad.

It's no wonder you had to deal with thrush.

I find it very :eek: that the current farrier would wedge either of these front feet, and if he told you "She went from Jan 30th to Aprilish before she had enough foot to trim " then I am pretty certain that he has absolutely no idea that there is way too much foot, because these feet didn't get to be this tall since April-ish :no:

cosmos mom

May. 25, 2006, 07:44 AM

Chocomare's edit of your photo shows about how much foot you horse needs, shoes or no. The rest is simply 1970's platform shoes.

slb

May. 25, 2006, 09:44 AM

No need for my comments....everything has been covered. Apart from the trim, the shoeing job is, as Tree noted, just beyond me. I also have never seen that many nails in a shoe! :eek:

Rule of thumb on a hoof that is capable of being shod "normally" is: no nails past the widest part of the hoof.

The imbalances in this horse's feet will most likely eventually cause unsoundness issues. I would also recommend that you post at horseshoes.com for a wide range of input from farriers. This will help you better understand what is going on and what might be causing the problems.

I hope your options in other farriers are better.:sadsmile:

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 09:55 AM

cosmos mom

May. 25, 2006, 10:05 AM

Bug up your butt much? The OP obviously questions her horses' feet and has a right to get other opinions. Not one person has bashed this un-named farrier (or the original and still un-named farrier of this horse). Did you happen to notice the referrals to the farrier board? p.s. did anyone ask how many nails go in a draft shoe? How does this relate to the feet currently up for discussion?

May. 25, 2006, 10:06 AM

draft farrier, I have some honest questions for you. Can you think of any valid reason for wedging either of these feet? Can you think of any valid reason for apparently not even attempting to get the heels of the RF down?

Speaking for myself as one who alluded to the farrier doing a very poor job of trimming (I won't touch the shoeing aspect), I am saying this from my experience that if a farrier 1) lets feet get this way and 2) doesn't appear to be correcting these problems that he didn't cause, then my, and others, assumption is that the farrier just isn't aware of what as wrong. And if he's not aware of what is wrong, how is he supposed to fix it, and how is the average owner, the "amateur", supposed to convince the farrier to make correct changes?

As I said, honest questions, not argumentive :)

arena run

May. 25, 2006, 10:10 AM

I am only just now beginning to study hoof trimming and have been doing my own for just a few months. I have no vast experience to draw upon but those feet are textbook for how NOT to do it.

Your farrier has lost his mind. :D Go find one who's sane. :)

Really, though, the horse's comfort and longevity is more inportant than hurting someone's feelings when you see feet like that. sylvia

EDIT> Uh oh. :D I suppose I am the first to do a bit of bashing. :) :) :) Doesn't it just seem logical that a farrier who supposedly studies the horse's movement undersaddle, on lounge, being led... well, they should know what to look for, no? If they allow this to happen to their client's horses then how good a farrier are they, afterall? Maybe all that studying is a cover for a small degree of "lack of knowledge"? END EDIT

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 10:33 AM

cosmos_mom.....please read for COMPREHENSION. I merely asked if she talked to her FARRIER FIRST.

I never used nor implicated the word "BASH"... .the word I used was "fodder". I'd say it's YOU with the bug.......

As per my comments about the draft shoes...Tree said 10 was the most she had ever seen....I merely pointed out that it can and is more. And while we're at it, I'll ask YOU.....if YOU were the farrier, is this how you want your client to act????? Do you want your clients talking to you or a chat board if they have concerns?

JB...I looked at those pictures and saw a BUNCH of things I would probably do different...IF I was under that horse. BUT....I cannot see what that farriers sees.....I don't know the history of that horse other than the paragraph the owner wrote. As a PROFESSIONAL farrier, I think it is poor judgement to come on a chat board and ask for critiques. A good client would TALK TO THE FARRIER FIRST. How do we KNOW what those feet looked like a year ago???? Maybe he IS getting them back, but he's doing it slowly??? Is this how YOU would prefer YOUR clients communicated percieved problems???? It's a slippery slope to go down folks. If the farrier/trimmer is a jerk, by all means dump him.....but he/she should get the professional courtesy to answer questions FIRST.

Think about it.

luvmytbs

May. 25, 2006, 10:39 AM

A good client would TALK TO THE FARRIER FIRST.

And ask what?: "Hmmm, these feet sure don't look right to me, what do you think?"

Duh!

Shellyp

May. 25, 2006, 10:44 AM

draft, while I agree with you about talking with a farrier before jumping to huge conclusions I think that we all as horse owners have a right to post things and ask others what their thoughts are. I know for me in the past I had NO knowledge of how a foot "should" look and I sent countless pic to a friend asking for thoughts etc. Not because I was bashing my farrier but because I wanted to know if I was missing something if there was something that needed to be corrected etc. I would look like an A$$ if I with no knowledge went to tell my farrier something was wrong with his job without knowing EXACTLY what it was. Prehaps you are assuming the OP is not going to give her farrier the respect of talking with the farrier about things she has read and learned but non of us knows what she is going to do and it is not respectful to assume she will just fire the chap based on things said here. I equate posting foot pic along the same lines of things like saddle fittings. People post about how a saddle fits after a fitter has been out and ask questions and nobody jumps the gun thinking they are bashing their fitter. They offer THEIR view points and THEIR thoughts on how it could be better.

ChocoMare

May. 25, 2006, 10:46 AM

KTBM: I took a look at Layla's pics on your website (she's a CUTIE PIE by the way :D ) and the 2 Cantering on the Lunge Line pics tell the story of her feet.

She's really trying to collect for you but is having to really tuck her hind end under herself to stay balanced on those tippy toes/high heels. This will also cause/lead to hip soreness and puts strain on the hocks.

If you feel comfortable with your current/new farrier, that he/she will look at your pictures and the polite comments made here with professionalism and grace, then by all means share them.

A farrier who is concerned for the horse above all, will accept it with just as much grace, accept responsibility for his/her actions and then work with you to correct the deficiencies in a timely manner.

cosmos mom

May. 25, 2006, 10:55 AM

Draft Farrier- sorry for the bug up your butt comment- that was unfair of me. I just don't believe that there is anything wrong with an owner posting pics of her horses feet to get opinions about where the issues lie and to see if his or her opinion is the same. It is, after all, her horse. It is only unfair if names are involved and bashing insues that can be attached to a specific person. We do not know if the OP has discussed this with her farrier or not- to infer either way is an assumption. There is no denying that this horse has some very prominent foot issues that existed long before this farrier came along, but I do wonder why a farrier would put a wedge on this horse. Also, I think Tree was referring to the number of nail holes typically used in the average shoeing as opposed to the maximum number you could use. As to the question of how trimmers would like it, my trimmer has no problem with me posting pics of my horses' feet and has asked me what comments people have because she finds it interesting and incourages people to discuss, debate and learn. I don't believe that the OP sounds like a mad client, just one that is trying to understand what is going on with her horses feet.

summerhorse

May. 25, 2006, 10:55 AM

Hooves never match exactly but these don't even come close. I'd get a new farrier! Asap. The heels are too high, they are uneven, well nothing looks very good to me. As others have mentioned I'd check out some farrier forums and ask opinions and do a lot of research on what the proper angles etc. are so you know what to look for as far as seeing that trim is correct.

Do you ride a lot? It might do this horse a world of good to get out of shoes for awhile and grow new foot and have balanced trims. Maybe find someone who does "mustang trims". I think there is quite a bit of info. on good hoof trimming on the web.

Also remember that you trim each hoof to the that hoof's leg not to the other legs. (but those heels don't look good under any leg! =) So don't worry TOO much about each foot matching the other as long as each one is symmetrical to itself and the rest is properly trimmed.

Has this horse ever had laminitis? The damage of laminitis can cause uneven hoof growth (in which case you need to trim more often, like every 4 weeks, so they don't get a chance to grow in weird ways). If she is ouchy I would get Xrays and make sure there is no coffin bone rotation. Normal horses don't get ouchy without some sort of reason (discounting the few that are sore a day or two after trimming or shoeing but that should only be a few days at the MOST). Why wedges? Those normally are used in horses with founder/laminitis/navicular issues.

Anyway you are right to be concerned, I suspect this mares ouchiness might be coming as much or more from her bad trimming/shoeing than from HER.

summerhorse

May. 25, 2006, 11:00 AM

Here are some articles: http://www.horseshoes.com/advice/advcclms.htm

summerhorse

May. 25, 2006, 11:01 AM

Here's another, maybe (at bottom) this was what they were trying the wedge for? they just didn't seem to do it quite right?) http://www.equipodiatry.com/hoofangl.htm

ChocoMare

May. 25, 2006, 11:04 AM

Here's another, maybe (at bottom) this was what they were trying the wedge for? they just didn't seem to do it quite right?) http://www.equipodiatry.com/hoofangl.htm

The last sentence on that page sums it up:

Knowledge and awareness by owners and farriers of the importance of a proper hoof-pastern axis allows an abnormal foot to be corrected through TRIMMING. Better yet, it can prevent abnormal hoof alignment from occurring in the first place.

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 11:07 AM

Shelly.....what you did was fine....you sent pictures to a friend(mentor?) and asked. Fine, that's a good thing to do. I have friends who use other farriers, and they ask me all the time. I tell them what I would do, but always make the note that it is THEIR farrier they should be asking...or ask your farrier this...or this....etc...or tell him I asked about this.....or this.....You know what I mean?

On a side note.....take these pictures to 10 different farriers, and you'll get 10 different answers....who is correct????

luvmytbs...YES, ask the farrier. I have had countless clients ask me questions out of the blue...."is that supposed to look like that?"....."should his toes be shorter?"......" my friends horse's feet look different.....". As an owner, you should be able to ask your farrier/trimmer ANYTHING about that horse, and the farrier/trimmer should be able to either answer your question, or get you in touch with someone who can answer your question. Now, if your farrier isn't very forthcoming, or is just an old, grouchy ass, then maybe it's time to find a new one. Never ONCE have I come to the internt and complained about a stupid question a client asked me.

Even I can look at a horses feet and give a list of things to do different, but maybe that farrier sees something I don't??? It wold be arrogantly ignorant of me to think I know EVERYTHING...I don't. Nor, do any of you. Pictures can be deceiving.

The whole point I am trying to make is......the internet is NOT the place to be getting critiques from. You don't know WHO is on the other end of the keyboard. Hell, you don't even know who I am, or if I really AM a draft farrier........???

Find a local farrier, mentor, or just some old guy who knows horses inside and out...you'll get better info. As an owner you should do everything you can to learn as much as you can. Farriery is NOT an exact science....what works on 20 horses will kill the 21st horse. Horses don't read vet journals, not do they read farrier journals. They seem to LIVE to prove them wrong.

summerhorse

May. 25, 2006, 11:09 AM

here's another interesting article: http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Section_12_full.htm

LMH

May. 25, 2006, 11:38 AM

Have you talked to your farrier about this??? Why not give him the courtesy of addressing any questions you have with him/her FRIST, before making him/her chat fodder??? Put yourself in the farriers shoes.....would you want this happening to you?

All of you "trimmers" out there better watch it......you're only one mad client away from being in the same boat.

FYI.....some draft shoes hold 7 nails on each side.

Well...anyone who does this kind of work is likely not going to be open to an ammie critique:lol:

If farriers want the privelege of using the word "professional" then they should behave in that fashion-one example might be EXPLAINING to the client this foot=bad, THIS foot= better-see?

That way she wouldn't have to come on a BB to ask questions.

Quite simple solution-of course it assumes the farrier actually has a reason for what he is doing.

May. 25, 2006, 11:49 AM

I think it is poor judgement to come on a chat board and ask for critiques.

How would you suggest hoof neophytes get the education to know whether their farrier is BSing them or not? Yes, KTM could have gone first to her farrier and asked "tell me how these feet look", and more likely than not, given that he's supposedly the professional, she's believe any answer he gave her if he sounded confident enough. And if he very confidently gives her an answer that he needed to wedge the LF so that the angles matched that of the RF, what reason would she have to believe he didn't know what he was talking about?

Would you, as the professional, rather have your client come to you with "tell me what is right or wrong with my horse's feet", or would you rather have her come to you with "I have been doing some research so that I can learn more about how feet should look, and from what I have been seeing and reading, I am concerned that my horse's feet aren't what they should be - can we discuss?"

Lookout

May. 25, 2006, 11:53 AM

Well, the shoes are nice and shiny :rolleyes:

C'mon, draft farrier admit it. If this was your work, wouldn't you be extremely embarassed by it?

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 12:22 PM

LMH .. you said....
"Well...anyone who does this kind of work is likely not going to be open to an ammie critique"

What does this mean???? Can you explain more? Are you referring to the OP's farrier work, or are you slamming me becasue I am a draft farrier, (since you highlighted my post, and not the OP ). What is an "ammie" critique???

JB ... first question out of my mouth is.."where'd you hear this?". If it's from a respectable farrier or vet, then I give it 100% of my attention. If it's from an internet chat board, then here's MY answer.....

"If you have a question about what I am doing and why I am doing it, then I would appreciate you talking to me FIRST. If you want a second opinion of my work, please ask another farrier to come with me and look at it and give me feedback. "

My clients EXPECT me to be on time, professional, courteous and caring for their horse.....I EXPECT the same in return. I AM a professional, not internet chat fodder. My modus operandi when I work on horses is I always EXPLAIN what I am doing and WHY I am doing it. If I have several options, I tell the owner all of them, the advantages and disadvantages of them, and WHY I am selecting the one that I am using. I don't just show up, catch the horse, shoe it and leave. I NEVER work on horses without the owner being there, that way, there is no lack of communication. No owner...no work...period.

I have no problem with any of my clients having another farrier/vet critique my work. I WELCOME it. There's a big difference between getting a colleagues HANDS-ON interpetation of work, and an anonymous internet "know-it-alls" critique via a set of pictures. Hell, how do you know, as an owner, that what they are saying is true??? How can you trust an anonymous person with your horses well-being???? What are THIER credentials???? How do you verify????? I guess I'm a tad old-fashioned huh?

Pictures don't tell the whole story. IMHO, unless you are hands-on with the horse, and interacting with the attending farrier, there is NO WAY you can get the whole story.

But, I don't know it all like some on the internet. I am but a humble farrier, learning more and more every day that I get under a horse.

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 12:38 PM

Lookout...depends. I've seen some really jacked up horses that got along just fine. Ever seen a horse with a severe club foot?? Ever seen a horse with torn suspensory ligament damage. Their feet look like hell. You try and make then "look good" and you'll lame them in a heartbeat. Some horse's feet/bodies have been so beat up over time with over-work, that some farrier got them comfortable, so you keep them just like that. Like I said before....horses don't read vet journals. What is right and good for 100 horses may not be for the 101st. Each horse is an individual, and as such, their treatment and shoeing/trimming modalities are tailored to their INDIVIDUAL needs. If you believe that ALL horses feet should "look" a certain way......well....you've got allot to learn. I once had an old pulling Belgian who blew a shoulder joint.....he was lame as could be. We got him sound by letting his heels grow AND wedging his feet...that was the only way he could be comfortable. The owner didn't have the $$$ to get all the medical treatment he needed, so we experimented (and got lucky). The guy who owned him was constantly being told by "experts" his horse was too upright.....which was correct...unless you knew his history. Sometimes....what we have been taught as being wrong is really right for a particular horse. Once you close your mind to that, all is lost.

LMH

May. 25, 2006, 12:47 PM

draft farrier I might suggest knocking the chip off your shoulder-no one has slammed you as a draft farrier.

I hilited you because you made the comment-MOST farriers are not very open to critiques from clients-MOST farriers are not very open to doing anything different than what they do-which is why many owners are taking over hoof care.

So that is what I meant by 'ammie' critique.

The fact is, if you spend enough time filtering through hoof threads, the quality of feet posted is just pathetic...this is supposed professional work.

Owners don't always know so many turn to the internet for answers-and there is PLENTY of solid information on the net on good hoof form (lots of bad info to...but that is another story).

Owners are getting educated...this is a good thing. I have no problem with educated professional farriers-they just seem to be hard to find.

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 01:23 PM

LMH ....what are you reading?????...... I wrote.....

"What does this mean???? Can you explain more? Are you referring to the OP's farrier work, or are you slamming me becasue I am a draft farrier, (since you highlighted my post, and not the OP ). What is an "ammie" critique???
"
In particular, "are you slamming me becasue I am a draft farrier" is a QUESTION, NOT an accusation...that's what all the question marks at the end of that sentance mean. Read what I write, do not infer what I write.

I did not accuse you or anyone else of slamming me...I was ASKING if that was your intent... and based on your repsonse, it seems from my point of view that YOU have the chip, not me.

Folks, All I am doing is POLITELY pointing out a differing point of view, because I have seen situations like this go bad...quick...and it's always the HORSE that suffers most.

I thought differing points of view were encouraged in a free and open society...guess just not here, huh ?

And finally, I am not like MOST farriers(whatever that means)....I am who I am, and I should not be "lumped" into a (negative)category just because of my job...no more than a person should be labeled because they are a "blonde"...or a "woman"......or "black".....or a "jew"....or pick your favorite label. You may not have intentionally been meaning to do that...but that is how it came across to me. Perhaps a little less angst, and a little more reflection will make it easier to get your point across??? Sometimes it's very difficult to get a point across in the written word, especially if one does not spend the necessary time to reflect on what they are writing, and how OTHERS might interpet it?

Oh well......

May. 25, 2006, 01:41 PM

draft farrier, you are likely one of the relatively few farriers out there who knows enough to know they don't know everything, are willing to openly discuss issues with your clients, and if it's pointed out that your work isn't up to par, I bet you feel pretty badly about it and do what you have to to fix it, even if it means running off to read some new published research.

Unfortunately, the majority of folks who post on this and other bb's don't have the likes of you for a farrier. They are met with "this is how my grandfather, my father, and I have done it for 3 generations, end of story", no discussion, no willingness to admit there is a problem with the trim (much less a willingness to think there is a different/better way for that horse), and "how dare you, a non-professional, criticize my work".

Clients of these farriers (and trimmers, no one is immune) have to come to places like this to get opinions and then have the onus of trying to sort through it all to see if they understand what is what.

And very often they come here FIRST because they already know that if they dare question their farrier they'll either flat out be fired as a client or at the very least simply be met with "because" as the answer. Farriers in general, IME from my own previous farriers and the horror stories (backed up by pictures) or farriers of bb'ers here, are very egotistical and uncompromising, and the more anyone on this bb (or others) read about "those" farriers of others, it is surely understandable how reluctant they are to run directly to their farrier.

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 02:18 PM

JB...I agree with you 100%. I got into farriery BECAUSE I couldn't find anyone to do my drafts to my standards. I found a VERY expereinced farrier who was very current on old and NEW technologies and apprenticed with him. I learned, I read, I sought out more expereinced farriers, went to clinics, put a hefty chunk of $$$$ into my education.... all so I could do my own horses. Several years later, went to a couple draft shows, and got tons of compliments on my work, from judges and competitors alike, got asked to do a few others. Word got out I was doing other horses, and voila, I had more work than I knew what to do with. But just because " a majority" of farriers may or may not be "open", still doesn't warrant lumping me(or anyone else) into their category...just not fair to me, I've worked far too hard to be where I am now. I found out that the REALLY good (draft) farriers are hard to find, because they are like I was, only doing their horses, and maybe another farms or hitchs horses. I tend to give farriers the benefit of the doubt, especially on internet boards, because I firmly believe there are 2 sides to every story, and the farrier NEVER gets to give his/her side out here. You know, I've been "fired" enough times to know that owners can be real a**holes to....and liars to boot! I've also been around long enough to know a "bad looking" foot or shoeing job might actually be exactly what the horse needs....or it may just be exactly that...a poor job. IMHO, one needs to be HANDS-ON with the owner to get the WHOLE story. Just my opinion...and like the old say goes......opinions are just like.....well, you know :)

Often times out here on "the net", it can quickly become a "gang bash", and that's just not right. Next thing you know, in the heat of the bashing, ALL farriers are bad. Not just this board either, it happens everywhere...to farriers, trimmers, owners, trainers, you name it......still doesn't make it right.

I've seen my fair share of bonehead farriers out there. I've got a few "natural" trimmers horses I'm shoeing now too. Got a halflinger a vet wanted to put down...even vets can be wrong. Life is a learning experience...and when you think you know it all, bad things start to happen.

Sometimes the best advice you can give here on the net may very well be.....talk to your farrier...or talk to your vet. Again, just my humble opinion.

cosmos mom

May. 25, 2006, 02:59 PM

I still don't understand what is wrong with peer review. Why shouldn't someone be able to post some pictures of their animal, get critiques and see pictures of some other feet? How does this negate talking to your vet or farrier? You are right, you don't always know who is on the BB, but as you become educated, by reading, discussions with vets, farriers and peers, you can start to know who to listen to about certian subjects in terms of the BB- none of these people are first time posters. Hey, you are here too, so you must see some validity to it!

KrazyTBMare

May. 25, 2006, 03:18 PM

Whoa whoa whoa. Easy everyone. I am not bashing my farrier. I am not releasing names. And I never would. That is rude and extremely uncalled for. I am asking for outside and attitional opinions, which I HIGHLY appreciate. I have my horses comfort in mind when I posted these. Not trying to go under my farriers nose. Not trying to out him.

I HAVE asked him about her feet. When he first came and did her, I was in a panic b/c of the first set of pics from the last farrier I was told her heels were underrun and contracted. He said they werent that bad, did her feet, put the wedge on (he got that little tool that you slide onto the hoof and it shows the angle) to get them similar. I had him do her the first time Jan. 30th. I called him about 4-5 wks later. He came out to trim my friends horse (doesnt wear shoes) and told me my mare didnt have any hoof to trim. About 3 or so wks later (Id have to get my check book to tell you the exact date) she lost her RF shoe b/c the nails rusted out ( or she stepped on it and pulled it but it didnt take ANY hoof and I never could find the shoe). He came out and did her, said she didnt need the wedge any more and she looked good. I asked her about her heels and the angles and all, and he addressed them, said they were starting to get there and everything.

I had her, back when he was doing her feet at my trainers, in hind shoes for support. She moves like a sewing machine behind and when we put the hind shoes on, she took stronger, longer, bigger slower steps with the hind shoes. The hindshoes were pulled when she was leased out b/c the other BM would not allow her to be turned out with other horses b/c of her hind shoes and the mare was going nuts being turned out alone. When I got her back, I had to move to a barn about 30-35 mins away (depending on traffic) and started using the barns farrier b/c it was easier and the horses there seemed fine and their feet didnt look bad. I never put the back shoes back on b/c she didnt seem to need them b/c I just hacked her every once in a while for like 3 months b/c I couldnt get out to ride b/c it always rained when I was able to get to the barn after college. Then while getting a job I was able to move her to a closer barn with a covered arena. The same farrier did this barn, so I just continued to let him do her. However, with my job, he always came and did the horses on days I was working. I didnt think anything of it b/c I didnt see any problems. Then I started noticing the thrush and tender frogs and bulbs. Thats when (after learning other things I dont care to discuss about the barn) I moved her back to my ORIGINAL barn before moving to trainers. But I refused to use her farrier as hes the one who I had problems with. So I was able to call trainers farrier, who is doing her now, and thats how we get back to the Jan 30th trim and current.

Choc, it actually just pains me b/c I knew something wasnt quite right, but I didnt know what it was b/c Im being told that the farrier job is great, having the angles and all thats done explained to me, making me think its all good. But she IS sore right above her hips. She tries so hard to do right but gets tense and frusterated. I figured it was b/c it was hard b/c physically, muscularly, training mentally wise, it was hard. Not b/c OUCH PAIN hard, ya know? But your comments of her hip soreness (and its just barely, but if I am currying really hard, she does drop her hip but she still leans into it I guess its kind of like when you have sore muscles and you get a massage, it hurts but it feels good?). So anyways, for you to see that (and those lungeing pics are like from 2 months ago) and me not mention really confirms what I was thinking.

My problem is, I dont know any other farriers. It seems every farrier Ive used here (and they arent all local) cant do it right. What are people supposed to do?! I am going to go to the farrier website listed. Ill have to post later though b/c I have stuff to do right now. But I will go. Maybe I can find a farrier on there that can do her? Im at my wits end. Im thinking that its something Im doing thats making her sore. That Im too big, weight wise for her, or that Im riding her incorrectly. But if it all boils down to her feet, I guess it still is something Im doing, seeing as Im paying the guy to do her feet. But you have to trust your farrier, and I did. :( Sigh.

But I really do appreciate ALL the input. I have spoken to him and all Ive gotten was reassurance and that everything looked ok. When I brought up the underrun and contracted heels, he said it wasnt that bad and that it would be fixed. Again, I just noticed the BIG difference last night, but again, it seems to have gotten worse as the hoof has grown.

draft_farrier

May. 25, 2006, 03:25 PM

The point I have been (unsuccessfully) trying to make is care should be exercised when critiquing any work, be it farrier or vet. Critiquing a farrier's work via pictures alone can be misleading to both the critiquer AND the person seeking. Not one single person suggested that she discuss this with her farrier. IMHO, that is wrong.....when I read her post, that was the FIRST thing I thought. I asked my self....why didn't she say what she said here to the farrier FIRST? Now, don't get me wrong here, I AM NOT bashing the OP.....I am just presenting another way to get her questions answered...maybe a better way??? Maybe not ???

Information is good. I'm ALL FOR owners getting more educated about equine husbandry, but the wrong information can be given in the best of intentions and cause a plethora of problems.

The other thing that almost always seems to happen is, pictures get posted, and of couse, EVERYONE finds fault with them, remarks are made like " get rid of that farrier...". I've never seen anyone COMPLIMENT a farriers work yet. Granted, I haven't read EVERY post ever written...but, stop and think about it. Folks, just because a foot may "look" bad, or not be the "textbook" form that we believe is good, fact of the matter is, sometimes what a horse has is what's NEEDED for THAT PARTICULAR HORSE..at that particular time....and no one seems to even consider that. Look, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck last night, a majority of the pictures we see ARE poor, or less than adequate jobs.....but there's always two sides to every story. And, unless you can stand in the farriers spot, and see what he/she sees, you can NOT know the whole story. The farrier in the OP's horse may be the #1 moron farrier this side of the equator......but...then again, he/she *may* be in the process of getting the horse from a poor shoeing job to a better job. Any farrier/trimmer worth a damn knows you can't fix a foot in one session.

Not one single person said to her, " ask your farrier about ...." Summerhorse was the ONLY one to ask more about history and pathology of the horse....every one else was talking.....but no one was listening. My father told me loooong time ago.....you can't hear if your mouth is open....well, on the internet, you can't read if your busy typing.......

I said all that to say.....NO ONE was asking, everyone was telling. Maybe we (as a collective internet society) should ASK MORE QUESTIONS before we start critiquing ????

Food for thought........

May. 25, 2006, 03:28 PM

But she IS sore right above her hips.

I'd bet money this is due to her hind feet (I'm assuming both) are high on the inside walls. Go read http://www.thehorsemechanic.com/hoofcare.html and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

My problem is, I dont know any other farriers. It seems every farrier Ive used here (and they arent all local) cant do it right. What are people supposed to do?!

You may have to end up doing what so many of us have had to do - learn to trim the feet yourself. At least that way you're not paying someone else to screw up her feet ;););)

But if it all boils down to her feet, I guess it still is something Im doing, seeing as Im paying the guy to do her feet. But you have to trust your farrier, and I did.
It may very well all boil down to her feet. In many cases it does. Does that mean that once the feet are fixed, everything else will be hunky-dory? No one can say for sure, as there may be longer term issues going on that were caused by the feet, so you may be peeling the onion, so to speak - fix the feet and find you have sore hocks, fix the hocks (which may just need time on good feet) and you find you have a sore back, fix the back and you find you have sore shoulders, fix the shoulders and you have a sound horse! :) There may need to be some massage and chiropractic work in the picture to resolve all the issues.

But I really do appreciate ALL the input. I have spoken to him and all Ive gotten was reassurance and that everything looked ok. When I brought up the underrun and contracted heels, he said it wasnt that bad and that it would be fixed.

This is exactly what I suspected

Again, I just noticed the BIG difference last night, but again, it seems to have gotten worse as the hoof has grown.

Yes, it will get worse as the hoof has grown. High heels will get higher, long toes longer, crushed heels more crushed, and it seems to get that way exponentially, due to the ever increasing unbalance going on.

May. 25, 2006, 03:33 PM

I've never seen anyone COMPLIMENT a farriers work yet.

This issue was brought up several weeks/months ago, and it's a good point. The answer then, and the one I firmly believe, is that if you feel your horse's feet are fine, you aren't posting pictures here. But if you feel something is wrong, then even if you don't know exactly what, you're likely correct that something IS wrong, and those are the feet that get posted here. Those are the bad feet.

You're right, there are some pictures that are not quality enough, due to lighting or dirt or angle, to give even a decent critique of. But these are fairly obvious, to me (and to others who posted who will often say "can't critique because of quality) that these are not healthy feet, not even "not ideal but might work for this horse", just "not healthy, period. Heels this tall, feet this contracted, the horse having issues, will almost always lead to "the feet are not good, they need to be fixed." Will "fixing" them make them textbook perfect? Who knows. But the way they are now is so far from that.

LMH

May. 25, 2006, 03:34 PM

I think the problem, draft farrier, is by the time someone posts pictures it is because there is already a problem. Usually a big problem.

And you are correct-most people don't spend time snapping photos of good feet to post...I guess because they are out riding:lol:

Yes photos can be deceiving on many things-I do believe looking at THESE photos, even considering distortion, something is going wrong and it didn't just happen overnight.

Another big red flag is when a farrier postpones a reset because the horse hasn't grown any foot. As the OP said in her last post. Especially when combining that with these feet.

Can a foot be slow growing? I guess so ...but more often it is a foot starting to run forward and before long, the poor owner has a lame horse or one with funny looking feet, gets worried...and posts a photo.

Owners are frustrated and getting more frustrated. It isn't all farriers causing the problems-there is also training, tack, environment and nutrition adding to the mess.

ChocoMare

May. 25, 2006, 03:37 PM

Choc, it actually just pains me b/c I knew something wasnt quite right, but I didnt know what it was b/c Im being told that the farrier job is great, having the angles and all thats done explained to me, making me think its all good. But she IS sore right above her hips. She tries so hard to do right but gets tense and frusterated. I figured it was b/c it was hard b/c physically, muscularly, training mentally wise, it was hard. Not b/c OUCH PAIN hard, ya know? But your comments of her hip soreness (and its just barely, but if I am currying really hard, she does drop her hip but she still leans into it I guess its kind of like when you have sore muscles and you get a massage, it hurts but it feels good?). So anyways, for you to see that (and those lungeing pics are like from 2 months ago) and me not mention really confirms what I was thinking.

It's good to trust your gut. It's that "mama/woman" thing that triggers the small voice in the back of your head as to when something's not quite right. You did the right thing....you talked with the farrier as best you knew how at that time. Today you've done the right thing again...you've sought out a second (third, fourth, etc.) opinion in an effort to do right by your mare. You empowered yourself to seek out the information so you could take further action to help the mare.

Now you need to channel this empowerment into either working with the farrier you have (print out the polite/helpful bits from this thread and show him, talk to him, work with him) OR beating every bush, looking under every rock and talking to everyone you come across to find a new farrier who will.

Lookout

May. 25, 2006, 04:02 PM

My clients EXPECT me to be on time, professional, courteous and caring for their horse.....I EXPECT the same in return. I AM a professional, not internet chat fodder. My modus operandi when I work on horses is I always EXPLAIN what I am doing and WHY I am doing it. If I have several options, I tell the owner all of them, the advantages and disadvantages of them, and WHY I am selecting the one that I am using. I don't just show up, catch the horse, shoe it and leave. I NEVER work on horses without the owner being there, that way, there is no lack of communication. No owner...no work...period.

You, draft farrier, are obviously a professional and rightfully expect to be treated as one, and treat your clients in kind. These feet, this is just crap. Really, you should not be defending this guy. Or bringing yourself down to his level by including what he does, in the same profession you do.

KrazyTBMare, look around at shows, everywhere you see horses, ask who the farrier is of feet you like and see if you start hearing a pattern.

luvmytbs

May. 25, 2006, 04:30 PM

From what I read that the OP stated, this horse has no issues requiring special trimming/shoeing.

So if these fotos are of a "normal" horse, the trim job is very bad. I bet if we got some full body shots of the horse standing, you would see a very uncomfortable stance.

Another thing I noticed is that the frogs are nowhere close to the gound, so no contact possible. But with heels as high as they are, that frog will never get to groundcontact.

SuperSTB

May. 25, 2006, 05:23 PM

I don't think Draft Farrier is defending this farrier's work- just pointing out his opinions on 'online critiquing'. If you read the boards at horseshoes.com- you'll see it's a touchy subject.

Anyhow... I clearly understand OP's fustration (many of us have been there done that). Best thing I can advise is just to get better educated by researching (hands on, video, online, clinics). Who knows you may up being a farrier yourself like Draft Farrier- LOL.

Problem is though- while the photos do not show a 'textbook' example of a good farrier job- I have learned through the years when doing a client's horse the story isn't clear cut the first time.

In the meantime (while you're researching) I would 'consult' with another farrier. We often get second opinions when it comes to medical advice but don't when it comes to hoof care. A good farrier would not get bent out of shape over it and maybe another farrier will see something the first doesn't- it happens, we're all human.

KrazyTBMare

May. 25, 2006, 08:38 PM

Thanks everyone. Again, so much appreciation to those who have taken the time to post opinions and thoughts.

I went out today to do a light hack and see if I noticed anything more. Lately, meaning within the last 3 wks, shes been more and more less willing to work correctly. I thought it was something I was doing, but its starting to seem more physical. I had her teeth done (found a new actual DENTIST and he was fantastic.. I was able to feel and see what he did, etc) and her mouth is much quieter now. I thought the riding issues were saddle fit. Check it. Its fine. Thought it was b/c I weighed too much for her. But my friend who is MUCH lighter has the same issues with her. So Im back to the feet.

Today, shed get going nicely at the trot. Much more inclined to go better to the left and with me rising when the RF goes forward. More tense and unwilling bending right. Left canter was ok still not a happy camper. She does really try to use her back and her hindend at the canter, and I think with the feet issues, and making her hips sore, this is more and more of an issue. Right lead canter was not pretty. Keeps wanting to counter bend, and the slightlest touch of inside leg to bend, she'll do a flying change.

Heres a pic of her right before the 2nd trim. He must of trimmed her like 4/21 or so b/c this pic is the 18th, a few days after I saw her pulled shoe. He came out a couple days later. So she went from 1/30 to 4/20 and he didnt take much off b/c he said she didnt hardly have enough foot to trim and that a lot of the horses werent growing b/c of the dry weather.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/IMG_0308.jpg

And this is a pic (sorry tacked up) of her standing (tried to get her pretty square) at the show May 13th

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/IMG_0503.jpg

Ive just been noticing since about the time she lost that shoe and he redid her that our work sessions have been getting worse (not as productive) and I thought maybe it was the saddle or something. But this makes more sense..

Off to the farrier forum.

ChocoMare

May. 25, 2006, 08:41 PM

Hang in there baby and keep us posted! ;)

EqTrainer

May. 25, 2006, 08:46 PM

Wow. The good news is, your horse is wearing SO MUCH foot that if you got her to a good farrier, they could work wonders in a matter of two or three shoeings. My old farrier would have cackled gleefully, rubbing his hands together, thinking of how much foot he was going to cut off your horse.

I won't go into it since everyone else has commented, but I would not even discuss this with him, I would just find another one. Thats me. I figure he's doing the best job he knows how to do and if that's it, then.. time to move on!

Your girl has been very gracious to go along w/your dressage plans for her on these feet. Bet once you get them squared away she'll really be a good girl :)

RoseBud143

May. 25, 2006, 09:06 PM

i just scanned through the bottom ones quickly so if it was adressed already im sorry...everything is about her bad feet.. which they do need some corrective work.. but how is her movement for u right now.. is she ever sore? or moves kind of stifly??... b/c there is such a diffrence in the structure of her feet and even the hieght of the heel.. is it starting to effect her movement???..and also b/c its going to put so much more stain on other body parts it will cause further problems if not corrected.. I agree if talking to this farrier doesnt solve anything def. consult a new one and ask him questions!!! its OK to be picky!!! make sure hes qualified!! i was always taught that horses had 4 hearts the one in the chest in one in all there feet .. make sure its taken care of the best way poss.. she ur horse only except the best!!

KrazyTBMare

May. 25, 2006, 09:23 PM

Yes, like I said in my last post, the last 3 wks shes not been as willing to work, getting tense, grumpy, hip sore, and sucking back. So def going to get a new farrier ASAP. And its a holiday weekend! :( But Im off until Tues, only work Tues, then off Wed, then work until Sat. And we are moving on the 29th and closing on our old house on the 30thhhh while planning a wedding!! And the new house isnt ready so we'll move into a hotel.. Can we say STRESS? Im just so concerned about her feet. :no:

I tried to register on horseshoes.com. It let me, but I STILL havent received an email activating my account so I cant post. I did a member search to try to see if there was a farrier posting in my area, but didnt come up with much.

Luckily tomorrow is still a weekday, so Im going to hit up a tiny tack store like 3 mins from me. Ive been getting to know the owner, as she also has hay (good orchard and timothy mixes) and has A circuit horses that she shows H/J. I would ASSuME that she has a good farrier..so Im going to talk to her and ask for some info. She owns her own big name farm here so I think she might have some good info.. I would hope!!

luvmytbs

May. 25, 2006, 10:00 PM

Wow. The good news is, your horse is wearing SO MUCH foot .......

When I saw the first pix I immediatley thought of a hacksaw...hmm. Just kiddin....

I bet she will feel much better once these issues are addressed.

what a lovely mare by the way and a beautiful place from what I could tell.

cosmos mom

May. 26, 2006, 06:52 AM

She is lovely!

Tree

May. 26, 2006, 08:13 AM

In the second photo where you're standing with her outside of the arena, she's rather steep up front from shoulder on down the legs to the hooves. That's not normal. That would suggest heel pain because she's got her fronts back under her chest which places more weight onto the toes vs heels.

All of her angles can improves once her issues are fully addressed. That steep looking shoulder will change. The legs under posture will change to where her cannon bones become vertical vs tilted towards the knees. The pastern angles will relax more and change and if the heels are lowered, the hooves will be less steep too.

This was something my college days conformation classes NEVER touched upon nor did the books we were required to reach ever mention it. It seemed that conformational flaws were something that could not be changed because it was genetic. HAH!

Tree

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 08:17 AM

MsM

May. 26, 2006, 10:00 AM

I have a horse with conformation and foot issues, and I have a couple of questions for the OP.
Did the front feet ever match more closely? If so, was she reliably sound while in work that way?
My horse was "made to match" in his fronts when in reality he had a mild club in one and it should have been left more upright. I also had a farrier who would consistently leave too much toe no matter the instructions from me or the vet. He was a decent basic farrier, but just not careful enough for my horse's needs.
Here is what I would recommend: Get the vet out for an evaluation and include shoeing x-rays. Now, most vets won't comment much on a farrier's work but will discuss what they would like to see done in light of the new information of the radiographs. What helped me greatly here was saying to the vet "I've been thinking of using a different farrier. Who do you work well with so we can work together to get these feet better?" This led me to a wonderful, concientious (SP?) farrier who can translate the vets general instructions and add in his own expertise without conflict.
BTW, if I posted pictures of these feet, many here would still be horrified. His heels are still somewhat underrun and contracted and his front feet dont match. BUT you do have to know what had happened before and he is sound and happy and so am I!

KrazyTBMare

May. 26, 2006, 10:46 AM

I mean, shes sound, just not comfortable. Shes not lame, just sore. When this guy did her feet at my trainer barn, she was working SO well. I actually got suspension and back lifting. It was nice. She was also in hind shoes. Heres a pic of her in Jan 05. The current farrier had started working on her like 2 months before.. and she was SO sore in her back b/c she was SO off in her length of legs due to old farrier and she was in a double ought shoe. He has her in a 1 now and also in this pic.. I was moreso proud of her weight and muscle but anyways..

Anyways, you can see the LF which was the "problem" foot. That was the leg that was almost a total inch difference in height from the previous farrier. So to get the angles the same, he had her a heel lift aluminum shoe (she moved better in a lighter shoe too) and also I think there.. he might have had a 2 or 3 degree wedge pad b/c the angles were SO off. This was back when he did her and like took a long time and also had my trainer there talking with him. Her LF looks off but this is him trying to fix the previous farriers issues.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/ixitellyixi/100_1839a.jpg

May. 26, 2006, 11:58 AM

I mean, shes sound, just not comfortable. Shes not lame, just sore.

Then she's not sound ;)

So to get the angles the same, he had her a heel lift aluminum shoe (she moved better in a lighter shoe too) and also I think there.. he might have had a 2 or 3 degree wedge pad b/c the angles were SO off.

The issue that I see isn't that the LF needed wedging, it's that the RF needs a LOT of heel taken off. Among other things of course ;)

Auventera Two

May. 26, 2006, 12:32 PM

I didn't read any of the other responses yet, but...oh.my.god. :eek: The horse's heels are WAY too long and underrun, and I've personally never seen that many nails in a horse's foot. When my horses were wearing shoes, I never let a farrier put more than 3 nails in per side, say nothing about 5 per side! Wow. :no: On the solar view, the feet look so long (heel to toe) and what I find so weird is that even with 5 nails per side, the nails still only make it halfway back to the heel. Doesn't that mean that the point of breakover has to be brought way back, and that the toe has been allowed to run way out ahead of the horse? I'm just learning about feet myself, but this is what jumped out at me right away. I might get blasted for saying this, so I'll zip it up now....

Off to read the other posts...

KrazyTBMare

May. 26, 2006, 02:22 PM

Hey, you got me. Break over? Ive tried to educate myself, but Im a very visual and hands on person, and reading online and stuff doesnt really DO it for things like this.

Can I ask an HONEST question without having anyone jump the gun here... would the fact that the farrier is also the main farrier at a lot of the walking horse and halter horse shows? He says he doesnt believe in having a tiny little foot on the halter QHs like you sometimes see or the big weighted shoes or anything on the walking horses. He likes a lot of foot.. which is apparent, apparently..

Anyways, not trying to diss walking horses or halter horses or their farriers, its a honest question.

And I still havent received my activation email for horseshoes.com and still cant post and ask for help there. :confused:

ChocoMare

May. 26, 2006, 02:25 PM

Can I ask an HONEST question without having anyone jump the gun here... would the fact that the farrier is also the main farrier at a lot of the walking horse and halter horse shows? He says he doesnt believe in having a tiny little foot on the halter QHs like you sometimes see or the big weighted shoes or anything on the walking horses. He likes a lot of foot.. which is apparent, apparently..

OMG! YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! This explains so much. :rolleyes:

Generally (not a blanket statement)...but generally TWH "farriers" trim/shoe exactly like what's been done to your TB mare. HIGH heels, LONG toes, UNDERRUN heels.

Then the owner wonders why the horse has hip/back/hock problems. :no:

skyyak

May. 26, 2006, 03:20 PM

Yeah, I know a lot of Morgans have thier feet done that way. One gelding I knew had 5" hooves- it looked terrible!

If I was you I'd pull her shoes until you find a new farrier (if you can, I know some horses feet fall apart w/o shoes), because it really sounds like her feet hurt.

KrazyTBMare

May. 26, 2006, 03:40 PM

I went up to the tack store and spoke to the owner. She was actually closing up and about to leave as I came up, but took the time to talk to me and grab some numbers. Shes SO nice!! And they say H/J's are snobs! HA (Just a joke, guys!) Shes really a very nice lady. I got 2 great references. Left a message for HER farrier as her barn is like 5 mins from mine and he does horses up here. Got a reference for another farrier she used but he prefers to stay south of town, where Im moving, so I could maybe use him. Left messages for both. I actually was able to talk to the guy further south's daughter. She knows my friend and he may possibly do my friends horses. Anyways, hes going to call me when he gets in from mowing. Whew. I just want the poor thing comfy. Ive been stuffing her full of carrots. LOL

Do you think I should give her some bute? I know when Im sore I take Advil.. I didnt know if I should give her a gram or something? What do you guys think?

skyyak

May. 26, 2006, 03:53 PM

If it were my horse I'd give her bute. 1 gram should take the edge off without doping her up.

Lookout

May. 26, 2006, 04:00 PM

If I was you I'd pull her shoes until you find a new farrier (if you can, I know some horses feet fall apart w/o shoes), because it really sounds like her feet hurt.
At this point, that would probably actually help her. :rolleyes: Not a bad idea.

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 04:31 PM

You could...

but with as long as her hoof walls are, I'd be afraid they'd tear apart.

It's a crapshoot. I wish I were close to you, even I could pull those shoes off and get her trimmed to something reasonable until an expert could get to her. Poor baby!

Auventera Two

May. 26, 2006, 04:56 PM

Auventera Two

May. 26, 2006, 05:07 PM

You asked about breakover - well, here are the sites that are the holy grail of hoof care, if you ask me. The folks on this forum told me to read these sites a few months ago, and they're now my bible:

www.ironfreehoof.com (http://www.ironfreehoof.com)
www.tribeequus.com (http://www.tribeequus.com)
www.barefoothorse.com (http://www.barefoothorse.com)
www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com)
www.equinepodiatry.net (http://www.equinepodiatry.net)
www.equinextion.com (http://www.equinextion.com) (There's a FABULOUS hoof care forum on this site. I read the stuff there all the time!)

Thomas_1

May. 26, 2006, 05:18 PM

I've had a good read of this posting and note the comments particularly suggesting that prior to posting here that the OP should have referred back to the farrier that shod the horse.

To be frank I wouldn't waste my time or breath - the person that has done that is NOT anything like a half decent farrier. In fact if he's ever had any training, then I'd be gob-smacked!

The importance of CORRECT shoeing and trimming cannot be overemphasized. Each foot should be symmetrically shaped with equal height heels, so that the foot lands on the ground squarely. However well a shoe fits, unless the foot is prepared properly first, the end result is uneven distrubution of forces through the foot and a predisposition to lameness either in the foot or lower joint.

You would have to be blind not to notice that the feet shown in the photos are not even at all. The toes are too long and the heels collapsed. This means that the horse is laid back on his pastern. There will therefore likely to be strain and sprain on the suspensory ligament. Collapsed heels will predispose to navicular syndrome.

Furthermore the shoe is too small and gives no support to the heel.

The medial and lateral halves of the foot should be symetrical, with the heels of equal height, so that when the horse is standing the foot is in the same plane as the rest of the limb. That horse isn't and quite simply that will predispose it to bruising of the foot and damage to the laminae.

Here in the UK farriery is regulated with national standard 4 year apprenticeships and examinations. You are not permitted to operate as a farrier unless you have qualified and in addition to having to serve time under close scrutiny of a master farrier, the apprentice has to attend college for theoretical and practical training throughout the duration of the 4 year apprenticeship.

I'd suspect that the farrier that did that either didn't bother with anything, went on a course for a few weeks, or didn't give a damn and was ripping folks off.

So in my opinion, the Poster did right posting here to ask and she would do well to find a good farrier immediately to undo the mess that one has done and set about some remedial trimming.

KrazyTBMare

May. 26, 2006, 05:29 PM

Thanks again guys. I must say, this is my first 4 pager on COTH! But its very appreciated.

I am going to go to Petsmart and pick up a bottle of Bute and give her some tonight and in the AM. 1 gram a day? Until I can get her comfy without it?

He doesnt just do gaited horses, I mean, heck, he does my trainers PSG/I-1 dressage gelding and spends SO much time on him (at least when I was still a working student there a year ago and he was doing my mares feet). Watching him walk, get ridden, customizing a shoe with heel support and a trailer (which I believe was for more support as well). Etc etc. I dunno, who am I to say though really b/c my education that Ive been trying to get was from him. Asking him every question I could about everything he did to the different horses at the barn. Why he put this shoe or that shoe or what the angles and everything meant. Lord knows if I know ANYTHING about a foot now judging by the reactions to his current work. Or maybe hes burnt out and I and my mare are suffering for it? Now Im concerned about my friends gelding that hes trimmed the last 2 times. Hes a Spotted Saddle horse, but NOT gaited, and is a dressage horse, in the making. lol Im going to have to get pics of his feet too. Hes barefoot, so a forgein dish to me. I guess its all the same? But I thought a barefoot horse and a shod horse were done differently?

Thomas, thanks for the support.

Again, like I said, I did talk to the farrier and all I got was reassurance and dismisal that the underrun heels or contracted heels were that bad. When it comes to your horse being in pain and uncomfortable, it comes down to getting that horse better, even if that means asking for help from strangers on the internet who can offer suggestions or support. Again, I know I keep saying it, but really guys, its been very helpful to know that when I was worried (and so stressed with everything else going on right now) I was able to turn to you guys and get some suggestions. Ill def keep it updated.. maybe my own little thread posting pics of the work of the new farrier to make sure we go down the right road together. :)

LMH

May. 26, 2006, 06:35 PM

On the list of websites don't forget Pete Ramey's

http://www.hoofrehab.com

If you go to the home page and click on the photos that are scrolling there are TONS of feet to look at-they are just lovely.

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 08:07 PM

The Pete Ramey pics are inspiring :) He is my hero!

You cannot buy bute at Petsmart (at least you cannot at mine!) Really, I know you want to do *something* as soon as you can but the risks of giving her bute IMO far outweigh the benefits. Just get her shoes pulled and her feet trimmed as soon as you can.

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 08:09 PM

Wow. Just wow. :eek: When I hear that a person is a "gaited horse farrier" I just run as fast as I can go. They believe in a whole different style of hoof care that does not, in any way, coincide with what mainstream considers CORRECT. There is a reason why gaited people find "gaited farriers" to do their work! If you posted these feet on a walking horse site, they'd probably tell you the feet look great. :dead:

Welll... my most incredible, gifted farrier does gaited horses also. And here is why.... $600 - $900 for a set of shoes! Oh yeah!

I always wondered why he even bothered coming to us, at $90 a set.

Just because he would/could shoe a gaited horse the way they wanted them done didn't mean he didn't know the difference.

KrazyTBMare

May. 26, 2006, 08:19 PM

Yeh, I just found out Bute is a vet thing. So I bought some powder asprin. I figured that was a safer bet anyways. We tried mixed with feed, but as I suspected, she said NO WAY. So I mixed it with some water and put it in a syringe and squirted it in her mouth. She was not a happy pony. LOL Its not the best smelling so I can imagine how it tastes! :dead: But I want her to get a little of the edge off.

I know I read where someone, or two, said that this can put strain on the suspensorys?... where are they? When I picked up her feet tonight in the field, I was showing my mom the difference (and as a TOTALLY non horsey person, she and my fiance both could see how off they were) her fetlocks, like JUST above, felt a little swollen. But not hot. Maybe they are supposed to be a little squishy and not hard and tight like the rest of the leg??? It could be my paranoid mind but just asking in case..

Left 2 messages and still awaiting call backs. I know its Friday and Memorial weekend.. but I really need a farrier. I hope they call.

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 08:23 PM

Well that is where the suspensory bulb is but really, right now, don't lose sleep over it.

You can give her MSM. It would probably be more helpful than aspirin, which can also cause stomach upset. She also most likely will eat MSM in her food readily, bizarre but true.

When you do find someone to pull those shoes off and trim her, she is going to go through a lot of changes in her body, some of them I suspect are difficult as things get back into place. A chiro would help her after a few weeks. But don't be surprised if she has some issues for a while. I prefer to longe my horses while they are going thru this; movement is crucial, but I don't like to ride them when they are funky. But that's just me.

Good luck getting a farrier out soon. Things will be better soon.

Thomas_1

May. 26, 2006, 08:38 PM

You shouldn't give a horse asprin!

KrazyTBMare

May. 26, 2006, 08:43 PM

luvmytbs

May. 26, 2006, 08:44 PM

You shouldn't give a horse asprin!

I am sure she got something like AsperEase, which is desinged for horses.

You could look and see if they carry BL Solution. Used to be called ButeLess. It's natural ingredients like Yucca, I use it instead of Bute if need be.

EqTrainer

May. 26, 2006, 08:48 PM

The horse asprin stuff they sell at Petsmart isnt meant for horses? :confused:

I had her on MsM a while ago as we were doing a lot of hard training and she was working really hard so we put her on the MsM and the L Lysine. She stopped eating her supplements in her reg food. Now if I put them in with like a tiny bit of feed with some water for like a snack or treat, she'll eat it. I have her on Mag 3000, B1, and L Lysine.

I called a equine massage therapist but dont know of a chiro in the area?? How do I find that?

Perhaps in the UK they don't give aspirin to horses but here we do, but it's really not a good choice.

Ask the massage therapist how to find a chiro. She/he will know. You can also ask your vet, but depending on the way they think, they may not know of any.

I wouldn't have her massaged or adjusted until her feet are on the road to recovery but again, that's just me. I would just turn her out.

ChocoMare

May. 26, 2006, 08:48 PM

I'd stick with BL-Solution and liquid MSM (cherry flavor is yummy and the horse will loff it) for a while. Less harsh on the tummy. However, if you wanna stick with the aspirin, add about 5-10 Tums in with it to prevent tummy upset. (Thomas, yes you can give aspirin to horses. I had my late appaloosa mare on 25 human aspirin (crushed) per day as part of her uveitis treatment protocol. I counter-acted it with the Tums per my vet team.)

While I, too, will say Pull Those Shoes....be prepared before doing so. See if you can round up a pair of Old Macs or Boas. This way she will have support and sole protection until the feet are corrected and she gets past the "ouchie" stage. Plus have a bottle of Keratex Hoof Hardener on hand or venice turpentine for the soles.

Note of Encouragement: You Can Do This. Your mare has healthy hoof wall and with the right trim and time, she's gonna come through this just fine. Once she's rebalanced, you'll be amazed at the change in her gaits.

KrazyTBMare

May. 26, 2006, 09:28 PM

Ok, so something with Yucca in it... and liquid MsM.. and pulling the shoes... She was barefoot for like a week (with riding) on the RF when she lost that shoe and her foot held up find. Her feet, even with all these issues, arent crumbly or cracking.. is that b/c of the shoes? Her hinds do fine barefoot. Would the Old Macs or something be moreso for support than keeping the hood from cracking?

Yeh, Im going to hold off on the riding. Ill lunge her, without anything but a bridle, just to keep her moving and loose. I wont get her massaged until the farrier comes out, but I want to have everything lined up.

The thing I bought is like just powdered asprin for mature horses but it wasnt in a bag it had flavor (they had just plain powdered asprin but it had a hole so I got the stuff in a little container that has molassas added for "flavor" though that stuff did not smell great).

Ok guys. Ive been up since 8 am running around doing stuff on 2 1/2 hrs of sleep (doncha love stress?) so Im gunna go. Thanks again for the help and support!!!! *huggggs*

ChocoMare

May. 26, 2006, 09:33 PM

The boots will protect her tender sole from getting bruised and allow her to move out more comfortably/willingly.

You're right...she hasn't cracked because the shoes are constricting the hoof wall, preventing the hoof from "self trimming."

You have a good night's sleep!

May. 26, 2006, 09:47 PM

Note of Encouragement: You Can Do This. Your mare has healthy hoof wall

I think this is a very important thing to realize - DESPITE this trim, the integrity of the hoof material has remained strong. Just IMAGINE what her feet would be like of they were barefoot! :)

Buxton Farrier

May. 27, 2006, 12:39 AM

Hey KrazyTBMare
I just looked at your photo's and skimmed thought the long post. Whoever did your horse is no professional. I would give him leeway for being uneducated and poorly skilled, but what I find most offensive is that he purposely short shod the heels and put in ten nails to save him from having to replace a shoe. Even the most uneducated shoers know this is wrong. This shows that he has no concern for your horses' well being and soundness.
The reason there is so much poor shoeing is that shoers get away with it. Horseshoes.com is a great, mostly unbiased, way to keep farrier's honest. I won't go into the list of things wrong with your horses feet ,unless you want me too, I think it has been made abundantly clear already that this guy should not be shoeing horses. I think the internet is a great way to get opinions on shoeing and trimming jobs. Just remember who the professionals are when reading feedback. Remember too that almost any trim or shoe job is subject to negative reviews no matter how well it was done.
I wouldn't waste my time with your last shoer for the fact that he deliberately short shod your horse, but with new or uneducated shoers I would try to keep working with them. Be honest with them. If your horse is having lameness issues tell them that you are going to post pictures on horseshoes.com and then give your farrier the feedback or tell him to follow it online. I like horseshoes.com because it is frequented by some of the most knowledgeable farriers and trimmers around the world. Some can be a bit abrasive though.
Owner and farrier communication is vital to improving the quality of farriers. If you don't think your farrier is doing a good job then talk to him/her. Get some unbiased opinions. I say unbiased because some farriers will put down others work just to get your business. If they live in a different area then they are less likely to be biased. Don't just drop your farrier without letting him know why. If farriers don't know why they got dropped then they don't know they ever did anything wrong and will keep making the same mistakes over and over until it is brought to their attention. If your horse is suffering from their lack of knowledge or experience then tell them thank you for trying and let them know why you are changing farrier's. Tell them you may try them again in a few years when their skills have improved.
Vets are hardly good shoeing critics. Most have never trimmed a foot and fewer have shod a foot. What most vets know about shoeing they have learned from farriers. In my area there is only one that is knowledgeable about shoeing. Many prescriptions I get from local vets are from outdated textbooks.

HeyPone!

May. 27, 2006, 10:41 AM

I agree with BF 100% I looked at her feet and was speechless,and not in a good way. Visions of my husband trying to stuff his feet into my teenage son's shoes came to mind.:eek:

KrazyTBMare

May. 27, 2006, 10:56 AM

Still no word from anyone yet, but its understandable.

Went out to the barn this AM and watched my friends lesson. Checked on the mare to see if her hips/stifle area was still sore. No. I can bear my finger way into the muscle and get no reaction. So the asprin did help. The fact that shes not sore, at least not feeling it, made me feel better. I took her out and gave her a massage with the Sore No More shampoo. It has cocoa oils and lavendar in it. She was leaning into me. Lowering her head, looking asleep. I massaged her shoulders and topline, poll, back, right above her flank, and her hindquarters and she leaned into me the whole time. So she felt good when I left.

Thanks for the support guys. I think that its mostly that hes burnt out and we are suffering. Hes been saying the last two times hes been out that hes thinking about stopping. He spent like $16000k+ in gas last year b/c he lives so far from where he travels to work. So maybe hes burnt out and just doing a crap job just to get it done? Regardless, Ill find someone else. He wont call to schedule. I always have to call and beg him to come. So no more of that.

STILL havent received anything from horseshoes.com. Even sent an email letting them know Im having problems. They probably have a long weekend off though.

slc2

May. 27, 2006, 10:58 AM

This is very bad shoeing. Not because there is 'too much heel' or 'too much hoof', forget the drawings above, they're wrong. Chopping off the heels isn't going to correct this.

A long toe and no heel, as is so popular in the hunters, isn't a particularly safe or healthy way to shoe a horse, and the correction for this problem ISN'T to try and get to that style of foot! The solution is NOT to decide how much foot to take off the horse! The solution is going to take a very long time and a lot of skill. And it's not going to get better from one shoeing.

This shoeing is bad because the horse is crammed into extremely tiny shoes that are absolutely the wrong size for his feet. I don't think i've ever seen such an extreme example of this. This will take a number of shoeings to correct and it is absolutely crucial that it be corrected. Ge another blacksmith immediately. This is the worst shoeing job I've ever seen in my life. You're going to destroy this horse's feet.

The heel and toe of the horse's foot need to be parallel. This is the worst run under heel I've ever seen.

Sorry, but this is YOUR responsibility, not the blacksmith's. YOU need to know how that foot is supposed to look and to choose a farrier accordingly. No, there really isn't any point in talking to this farrier, except to say, 'My horse's heels are ruined, you are not shoeing her any more'. Everyone makes mistakes. Now that you know take your lumps and get it fixed. The person who did this should never shoe another horse, quite true, but it is YOUR responsibility to know at least some basics or to consult with a trainer regularly who can keep you on track if you don't know.

bauhaus

May. 27, 2006, 11:22 AM

I too was speechless at the pics! I just wanted to say that within the last 2+ years I have gone barefoot with my 3, although it was never really my intention to do so. (A couple of years ago a new farrier couldn't keep my 2nd level mare's shoes on, and I finally had him pull them altogether in frustration thinking I'd be looking at months of stall rest. The trim itself wasn't too bad, as it turned out, and she never missed a day of turnout or work and moves better today than she ever has!) Barefoot with a good trim vs shod with a good trim is a matter of personal preference and what the horse needs, so I'm not saying you have to pull your horse's shoes to "fix" this, but a good trim is mandatory either way! And I am no expert, but I believe these people are giving you great advice.

Anyway, once the problems are resolved do NOT listen to people who tell you that your horse's toes are too short, she has no heel, etc. I moved my mare to a BNT dressage barn about a year ago, and they all thought I was nuts and my horse's feet looked "too small". But they shut up after a while when they realized my mare was 100% sound, moves beautifully, and has healthier feet than 99% of the other horses there. She is now schooling 4th/PSG and will show 3rd and 4th this summer or fall. I am now seeing more of horses coming in to this barn with healthy trims and even *gasp* barefoot. So you might get some criticism from "experts" who are so used to seeing incorrect trims they don't know what a good one looks like. Just know that you are doing the right thing for your horse by learning about healthy trimming and eventually they will see the positive results if you stick with it.

HeyPone!

May. 27, 2006, 11:23 AM

Krazy TB Mare ,Do you want me to post this on the horseshoes.com for you??

LarkspurCO

May. 27, 2006, 11:43 AM

Krazy, I suggest calling EDSS (719) 372-7463 (see www.hopeforsoundness.com) and asking them for referrals to farriers in your area. They are very helpful. This can be fixed.

Buxton Farrier

May. 27, 2006, 12:02 PM

Krazy, I suggest calling EDSS (719) 372-7463 (see www.hopeforsoundness.com) and asking them for referrals to farriers in your area. They are very helpful. This can be fixed.

Yes, I agree. They are a very good organization. Getting referals from the American Farrier's Association (AFA) is a crapshoot, but EDSS can hopefully refer you a knowledgeable farrier to get your horse straitened out. I hope there are some in your area.

EqTrainer

May. 27, 2006, 12:20 PM

slc, what people are recommending here is not that they chop the heels off and leave the toe... but that the excessive heel length, which is often considered by people who don't know any better to be a good thing - will have to go. Then the entire hoof will have to be rebalanced.

But as heinous as these feet look, a good farrier will have them balanced up pretty quickly because there is foot to work with. She also has good quality horn. The worst ones IME are the ones that have severly underrun heels, flat soles and long toes. They take a long, long time to rehab.

Bauhas - yeah, we hear that too ;) the comment about their feet being *so short* Well, even when my horses wore shoes, my excellent God farrier had them wearing a very short foot, so that their frogs still had ground contact and their foot was expanding/contracting. I heard that comment back even *then*. People who knew what they were looking at would immediately ask for his name and number ;) it is funny, the ideas that people have about feet.

KrazyTBMare

May. 27, 2006, 04:11 PM

Pone, if you could post this, I would appreciate it. More so, as I think I get the picture of whats wrong, but what sort of questions I should ask a new farrier, what I should be looking for in getting this correct, how often she should be done, etc. I get whats wrong, but I need to educate on what I should expect for it to get fixed. People can talk the talk and BS but I need to know I am getting what is needed for her as I obviously was BSed by last farrier.

And slc2, DUH, I AM educating myself and I DID notice the issues. I brought up the SPECIFIC fact that I thought her heels were under run and contracted and her feet looked better than they did with the previous farrier the first time this guy did her. You have to trust your professionals and I questioned everything he did (to find out the WHYS, etc). I was reassured so of course Im going to believe him as he shod this mare for a year and she was the soundest Ive ever had her and worked the best Ive ever had her go.

Im going to call that place on Tuesday (as Im sure theres no one there on the weekend and with Monday a holiday) for a reference. I did ask around and actually the 2nd farrier I was suggested who my friend knows and said he does good work, actually did my vets horses before he decided to stick further south of the city. The 1st farrier I was refered to (not sure if hes taking more clients though) does my vets feet now as well as the top barns locally. So keeping my fingers crossed.

HeyPone!

May. 27, 2006, 04:44 PM

It is posted under "farriers helping owners with shoeing/trimming problems":)

KrazyTBMare

May. 27, 2006, 04:57 PM

THANK YOU!!!!!!

evenstar

May. 27, 2006, 05:10 PM

From LMH: "Another big red flag is when a farrier postpones a reset because the horse hasn't grown any foot. As the OP said in her last post. Especially when combining that with these feet.

Can a foot be slow growing? I guess so ...but more often it is a foot starting to run forward and before long, the poor owner has a lame horse or one with funny looking feet, gets worried...and posts a photo."

Yes, a foot absolutely can be slow growing. I had two horses (sadly, I lost my older mare last September) and a farrier who only came to the farm to do my two. But my older mare would maybe have enough growth for a reset in 8 - 9 weeks --and that in the Spring and Summer -- whereas my other mare was way overdue if she went longer than 5 weeks (and she has one foot that is somewhat clubby (though not a classic club foot by any means).
My farrier's answer was to tell me up front that my older mare didn't have enough new growth to do a trim/reset, to shoe my other mare, and to say give me a call in about two weeks for the older mare. He would rather make two trips than reshoe a horse with minimal growth.
And her feet were great, no problems at all in the 17 years he was her farrier. No issues with my other mare, either. Not a day of lameness due to the feet. Or from any other cause, so I've been very fortunate.
But absolutely, if I see something that strikes me as not quite normal, I can ask him what's going on, and get an answer without threatening our client/farrier relationship.

LMH

May. 27, 2006, 06:52 PM

Is there a way for you to post the photos direct? It may turn into one fascinating thread to link the boys over here!:eek:

KrazyTBMare

May. 27, 2006, 09:46 PM

LMH, you mean on the horseshoes forum? I have registered and I can log in, however, I still havent received an activation email and I sent an email for support letting them know of the registration problems.

Hey Pone was nice enough to post a link for me over there. Yes, Ive been told there are some curt people over there, but really, its about getting informed, even if people decide to deliver their message with vinegar, and figuring out what I should be looking for and expecting from a new farrier so I dont make this mistake again. Live and learn and dont do it again. Gotcha. ;)

If you want to copy and paste the links; go ahead. Maybe make it a post entitled "How to NOT shod a horse". As long as I can get some informed answers, Ill be happy. Right now, I have the mare comfortable, until I can get in touch with a new farrier. But we know how some of them can be about call backs! ;) ;) ;)

luvmytbs

May. 28, 2006, 11:57 AM

there are a couple of replies on the horseshoes.com and one by our beloved Tom Stovall.

I guess we are all in agreement here!:)

Thomas_1

May. 28, 2006, 12:08 PM

And I'd say his advice is spot on. I guess the difficulty is now going to be finding a good farrier.

Have you got a good horse trainer nearby that might be able to help you assess competence?

Horseshoe2

May. 28, 2006, 05:49 PM

After looking at the pictures of the feet all I can say is wow. I can see why more people are looking towards the barefoot movement. I've been on a few BB for the past 6 months. Had to quit shoeing for a while due to neck surgery. But since I've been on these boards I am shocked at some of the shoeing pictures I've seen. Have the owner of this horse contact the website for EDSS to see if there is anyone in your area, this will dramatically help this horse and if not just getting those toes back, heels back, better medial/lat. balance and good frog support will do him a world of good. I use to be president of the VA horseshoeing assoc. so if you can give me your area I might be able to find someone for you. The Horseshoe.com BB is also another good place to ask questions.

Thomas_1

May. 28, 2006, 06:12 PM

After looking at the pictures of the feet all I can say is wow. I can see why more people are looking towards the barefoot movement. .

I absolutely don't see the connection here..... the horses feet are trimmed incorrectly and that can happen if you have a poor farrier whether a horse is shod or unshod.

Furthermore I've seen a lot more unshod horses with appalling feet than ones with shoes on!

Horseshoe2

May. 28, 2006, 06:53 PM

I didn't mean to say all barefoot horses feet I've seen are in great shape but I was referring to the ones posted on this post. I didn't see any point talking about anything else but what the OP was wanting info on.

Thomas_1

May. 28, 2006, 07:06 PM

Lookout

May. 28, 2006, 07:11 PM

The boots will protect her tender sole from getting bruised and allow her to move out more comfortably/willingly.

Soles are not tender. They are hard, keratizined horn, which is a metabolic waste product, i.e - dead. Just like the wall. They have no blood vessels or nerves in them, which is why you can cut them with a knife.

Thomas_1

May. 28, 2006, 07:35 PM

Soles can indeed be tender and they can and do bruise.

KrazyTBMare

May. 28, 2006, 07:59 PM

Im in south Jacksonville, FL if you want to see if you can find some farriers. With it being a holiday weekend, I have to wait to call and try to find some suggestions.

Thomas, I did go to a trainer/BO to get the references. When I spoke to a well known trainer and showed her the pics, the first thing she said was she thought she needed a wedge under her LF to get the heel longer. :sigh: So I dont know if going to a good trainer will really help in the hoof area. Everyone has their own little niche, some train horses, others trim/shod them. Heh.

The good thing is, she still isnt sore in her body. At least, in her muscles, so I can run my fingers along her back and above her hip and stifle area and she doesnt flinch AT ALL. So thats good. Now to just get her comfy in her feet and that will help any where else she may be feeling it.

LMH

May. 28, 2006, 08:53 PM

You are in Jacksonville?

I can recommend someone in the Ocala area that may be able to travel to you-or could you get your horse to Ocala?

Granted he specializes in barefoot but Bensmom used him and he DID shoe her horse-the last I heard she was very pleased with the results.

If you are interested PM me or Bensmom for his contact-

don't be frightened that he is a barefoot trimmer-he can balance the heck out of a foot and will shoe if needed.

KrazyTBMare

May. 28, 2006, 09:22 PM

I cant get her to Ocala, but if he can help, I can pay. If she doesnt NEED shoes, then she doesnt need shoes. Again, I really have to take what Ive been told by previous farriers and throw it out the window.. I mean, look at where we are right now! LOL If she needs to be out of shoes for a few months or forever, if she can, then go ahead. Ill drop you a PM. Thanks!

LMH

May. 28, 2006, 09:52 PM

I sent you an email with the contact info I have-if you have any troubles reaching him let me (or Bensmom) know and we will get you in touch.

Chin up-you will be amazed at how fast things will turn around when you get your babe in good hands!

KrazyTBMare

May. 28, 2006, 10:02 PM

Thanks. I sent him an email. We'll see how things turn out.

Again, if you guys didnt get it the first few times, THANK YOU for your help and advice. Makes me feel better that I can count on some support! :)

grayarabs

May. 28, 2006, 10:10 PM

Thomas - pray, whose advice do you think is spot on?
Surely you don't mean TS. If that is who you mean - just know - I share a city and a state with him. Don't get me started.........he is a legend in his own mind.........

Thomas_1

May. 29, 2006, 06:09 AM

I actually do mean TS and whilst I don't personally know him, the advice he's given is absolutely right.

I personally would never recommend to someone who purports to specialise in barefoot!

Rather, I'd suggest ring EVERY equine vet in the area and ask who they recommend. Phone the Guild of Farriers and the Farriers Association and get listings of farriers in your area.

May. 29, 2006, 09:25 AM

...or, find horses whose feet look like what you know to be correct and ask who does their feet. The proof is in the feet.

I have seen the work of farriers who are highly recommended by trainers, vets, other farriers, and some of their work truly sucks. If trainers and vets can't tell what's a good foot and what isn't, how are they supposed to recommend a good farrier?

Tree

May. 29, 2006, 10:48 AM

I have seen the work of farriers who are highly recommended by trainers, vets, other farriers, and some of their work truly sucks. If trainers and vets can't tell what's a good foot and what isn't, how are they supposed to recommend a good farrier?

Hey JB,

Yes, you have to stop and consider where the recommendations come from.

There's a so-called "Lameness expert" Farrier in my area. Well, he seems to impress Vets more than horse owners. I met a horse owner recently that was told by this "expert" that her horse could never go barefoot. Now then, it's one thing to be referred to as an "expert" but it doesn't mean that it's true. It may simply boil down to someone who knows a little more than someone else. The owner was riding her barefooted horse at the time I met them. The outsides of the hooves looked very nice.

I think it's paranoid if people would shy away from someone who specializes in barefoot work without checking references or their work. Geez! On the otherhand, I wouldn't want to take anyone's word for a "lameness experts" abilities either!

It pays to check things out thoroughly.

Tree

grayarabs

May. 29, 2006, 04:13 PM

Horseshoe2 - you sound reasonable - so I thought to ask you some questions - if you don't mind. Firstly - I am a barefoot convert - have been studying hooves not quite 2 years. Before that I knew virtually nothing - left everything to my farrier. Will address what he/they overlooked at another time. I know the barefoot rules (natural hoof/whatever you want to call it) in regards to toes, heels, bars, rolling etc. First rule being don't touch the sole callous. Our barn uses a couple of "other" farriers - one horse shod - the others barefoot in what barefooters would call a pasture trim. Only recently did I start noticing the clippings left behind by the pasture trimmer. What I have found are the clippings - say the entire piece nipped from quarter to quarter - a good amount - including still attached sole! to the wall!!! You hold up the clippings and can clearly see: outer pigmented wall, inner unpigmented wall (water line), then white line - then sole. These clippings from horses to be kept barefoot. The heels are not addressed - left either high or under-run. The heels left high with sole callous removed is what really gets me. I imagine if someone pared away the tough skin - toe area - my own foot - then asked me to walk (barefoot) with high heels (however) I would be quite lame. It is insult to injury - to first remove the callous then expect the horse to weight that area fully due to high heels. I have to ask: is this taught in farrier school? namely to remove the sole callous and then make the walls and sole at the toe the same (short) (even) height? Assuming is taught - why? What is the logic?
Or is this (just) a stock horse way to trim? Short toes (no callous) and high heels? My pasture trimmed friends fully expect their horses to be sore for days after being trimmed - I never understood that - but now I do.
(my prior years my horses always shod - so did not know). The last time one of the pasture trimmers did the horses - he made 4 out of 6 terribly lame. (I saved the clippings - to study and as evidence). One TB was lame about two weeks. So past weeks I have been wondering what exactly is taught in farrier school for un-shod horses. Also - these guys have AFA and all other certs on their business cards. I checked - because I could not believe anyone would approve their work - but it seems someone has. I work on some of the horses now under approval of barn owner and under supervision of my barefoot trimmer - the latter is teaching me. My BT graciously trimmed said TB at no charge - set-up trim - to get us on the right track - for my future maintence of that horse. That TB not sore after my trimmer trimmed him - nor after I do. I have to wonder - here I am a beginner trimmer (but intense studier) who never ever thought to be doing hooves - and I sincerely think I know more and do a better job than these men that have been "professionally" trimming and making a living shoeing/trimming horses for years. Something is wrong with that - and the very reason so many folks are learning to trim themselves. All this to say/ask - what is taught in farrier school???? Is that how you trim? Would you consider posting photographs of your work? (I'll show you mine.........grin....).

Lookout

May. 29, 2006, 04:26 PM

It is insult to injury - to first remove the callous then expect the horse to weight that area fully due to high heels. I have to ask: is this taught in farrier school? namely to remove the sole callous and then make the walls and sole at the toe the same (short) (even) height? Assuming is taught - why? What is the logic?

No, it is not. Nothing is taught in farrier schools about how to trim a foot to leave it barefoot. A barefoot farrier trim is one that has been trimmed for shoes and the shoes weren't put on.

I once watched a farrier do this on a four year old that was still barefoot and asked him why. First, he had no idea what I was referring to. Then after much explanation of the question, his answer was "uuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhh...........". So I said, "is it to change the angle of the toe to be steeper", and he said "uh, YEAH!". He has since relocated to Kentucky so all you lucky people in Kentucky can now look him up for all your shoeing needs.

I've had this conversation with a much more intelligent farrier who would only keep saying that his job was to trim the foot back to how it had been six weeks ago, as that was "growth", that was to be removed. Nothing about angles or use of the limb on the ground or anything.

May. 29, 2006, 05:04 PM

I also have to chime in that even having "Journeyman" tacked on to your name doesn't mean the farrier is any good. I got into this whole trimming for myself business because of one such CJF, and have since heard so many identical stories. The entire barn was full of long toes and underrun heels.

I for one don't care what credentials a farrier or trimmer has or doesn't have. I want to see the feet and how the horse moves. If the feet look nice and the horse is comfortable, that's where you should start in choosing someone to trim your horse's feet.

Thomas_1

May. 29, 2006, 05:30 PM

I for one don't care what credentials a farrier or trimmer has or doesn't have. I want to see the feet and how the horse moves. If the feet look nice and the horse is comfortable, that's where you should start in choosing someone to trim your horse's feet.

Of course theoretically you are dead right there. Regrettably though a heck of a lot of folks don't know good movement when they see it and don't know good feet either.

And regrettably "you don't know what you don't know"

May. 29, 2006, 09:04 PM

Thomas, you're right, it does sort of become a catch 22 if you the owner don't know what good feet look like. That's why some folks turn to forums like this and post pictures to try to learn :yes:

Tree

May. 29, 2006, 09:27 PM

Sole callous - yeah, it's serving a purpose.

I find that when there is a toe sole callous there isn't enough toe wall height yet. So the toe sole is having to compensate for what the toe wall can't do yet and that is, bear weight.

As the toe height increases the sole callous begins to disappear until there's no trace of a callous left and the entire sole is passive in its concave shape.

Tree

luvmytbs

May. 30, 2006, 08:15 AM

He has since relocated to Kentucky so all you lucky people in Kentucky can now look him up for all your shoeing needs.

LOL, I know quite a few people around here, who won't be looking for any farriers.

I went through four farriers with my then 18 yo OTTB, who would throw shoes after a week, or when finally I got a farrier who was able to keep them on, still wasn't able to get rid of an artificial vertical crack in one of his fronts, that had been there for years.
A friend of mine, also had issues with the farrier work done on her horses, one was founder prone and all the "conventional" shoeing did nothing but more damage. That's when she startet to research the barefoot route. She went to seminars, clinics, spent thousands of dollars getting all the education out there on the subject and has been certified more then once.

My old OTTB was her first "client" aside from her own 14 horses (mostly give aways due to founder issues that people just couldn't deal with anymore - no improvement with shoes). My old guy is now 24 and hasn't had that crack for years, all my OTTB's are barefoot and doing things they wouldn't do with shoes on. All her "founder" cases are running on 42 acres, healthy and problem free and are rideable once again.

I have, and so have other friends of mine, tried to get our "old farriers" to attend one of her clinics; vets and farriers receive a huge break. None of them wanted to.

The improvements seen in my horses and others that are being trimmed by my BT speak for themselves, so my BT gets more clients all the time. And the farriers are not happy about it. One of them left a very nasty message on a friend's answering machine after she had informed him that she was switching to my BT trimmer.

There a whole barns in my area now, who are "shoeless" and if any farrier out here would like to learn, why this works for us, there would be plenty of clients available for them as well.

It's all in the puddin!

HeyPone!

May. 30, 2006, 08:55 AM

PM sent to Krazy TB Mare :)

in_the_zone

May. 30, 2006, 04:50 PM

Hey Krazy TB Mare, did you have someone come out to do those feet today? I'm so glad that you are getting educated about this subject. It's hard to know everything about everything when it comes to horses, but it's important to start somewhere. I appreciate, and I'm sure your horse does too, that you are concerned about her well-being. Post pics when she's done! Here's a link to my pasture trim gone barefoot horse. http://deniedsociety.org/won/ALL.jpg

LMH

May. 30, 2006, 05:24 PM

in_the_zone

May. 30, 2006, 05:27 PM

Thanks LMH. I did not do the trim, but I am now educated enough to know why it's good now and why it was bad before. :wink:

May. 30, 2006, 05:28 PM

in_the_zone, wow, nice work! They are all dramatically different but I am :eek: over the RH. I don't think I've ever seen such a "clubby" hind foot before, and to see how normal it looks with a correct trim is just awesome!

Are these "after" pics after just one trim? If not, how many weeks and trims between the two? Very nice!

in_the_zone

May. 30, 2006, 05:57 PM

This is just after 1 trim and I let him wear on it week before I took pix. Oh dear Crazy TB Mare...where are you?

goeslikestink

May. 30, 2006, 06:03 PM

thomas 1 you are so correct i have seen so many psoting of bad farriers and shoeing if only i could get a piccy up of how nice our feet are mine are to big and ic ant make the piccy smaller have you got some nice feet to show these good people how nicely our farriers have to be you have echo everything i have said about our fairriers over here and like i said so far i have seen some guresome feet

oh and our farriers shoe anything from pony to draft they also trim and dress the hoof as an individual as no two feet are the same

Thomas_1

May. 30, 2006, 06:05 PM

I'll have a scout about and if I can't find any where the feet show, then I've got a farrier in tomorrow and will take some then

goeslikestink

May. 30, 2006, 06:18 PM

ta -- i have told them about our farriers that show and compete in competitons at shows to -- now thats fun i have entered bonnie in and another at times to shoe as it free but the only problem is you get four feet done by four farriers
as it judged on the style presentation dressing orthpedic needs l shoes nails breakovers finish allsorts really i dont mind i do for my farrier really as moral support--

goeslikestink

May. 30, 2006, 06:22 PM

oh thomas i could post you my piccys of feet and then you could post all of them tomorrow - right i shall go and dig out some photos as i justseen you got a web page --then its a good dffierence by two farriers -maybe then they will see-- and my ones a young lad just finished and he did 2yrs extra as he got his masters -- as other farrier got a wee bit to dear and having -8 -he put his price u to 80.00 thats nearly 800.00 for me i cant afford that

Jungle_cat

May. 30, 2006, 06:35 PM

LOL, I know quite a few people around here, who won't be looking for any farriers.

Who's your barefoot trimmer? I'm here in central KY and am a certified barefoot trimmer & if your friend holds clinics I would love to attend one as I like seeing how and why other barefooters trim the way they do. I took the plunge into barefoot and trimming myself after all the farriers we tried around here kept making my horses worse (my husband's horse wasn't even pasture sound while they were trimming and my haflinger's quarter crack just kept getting worse and worse). Then I finally took a certification course last year and am looking forward to getting more training.

luvmytbs

May. 30, 2006, 07:07 PM

jungle cat you have a PM

Lookout

May. 30, 2006, 10:08 PM

No, I'm not kidding. Something without nerves has no sensation (unless you can explain otherwise). The foot hurting on the inside (where the nerves are), does not mean the 'soles are tender'. An abscess forms in the blood vessels and may have to come through the sole.

Tree

May. 31, 2006, 08:20 AM

Um, you're kidding right? Soles most certainly CAN get sore. And as someone else already pointed out, they can develop bruises and abcesses, etc. which can cause out and out lameness.

It's not the soles which become sore but the structures which thin soles aren't protecting any more. If soles were that sensative, horses would be sore all of the time. So it's a matter of the inner structures being sore vs the acutal sole. The example you gave below is relative to THIN SOLES and less protection of the structures above those thin soles.

Trust me - I know firsthand how painfully tender soles can get. My late mare was lame for nearly an entire year after a farrier scalped her feet back to nubs, leaving her standing flat on her paper thin soles with the coffin bone very very painfully close to the outside world. She was wearing diapers and duct tape for months, and that's no joke.

I trust that a thin soled animal can be sore but not that the soles were what was sore.

;)

Tree

slb

May. 31, 2006, 09:05 AM

Lookout and Tree....for clarification, please define "sole"...thanx :)

Auventera Two

May. 31, 2006, 09:45 AM

Tree and Lookout - I understand your point. However, I think telling people that soles cannot be tender, is seriously misleading. The tenderness, soreness, lameness, etc. is MANIFESTED in the sole. It may not originate there, but that is where the horse responds to stimuli. i.e., hoof testers. Hoof testers on the sole can elicit a pain reaction. Walking on gravel, standing on thin soles, etc. can make the horse painful.

This is essentially the same scenario as an inflamed gallbladder. You feel the pain on the outside of the body. Touching the skin under the right ribs causes extreme pain. Of course the pain is originating from the gallbladder, but the doctor immediately asks if your right ribs are painful, or if the lower right quandrant of the abdomen is sore to touch. That's where the pain is MANIFESTED, or where it is apparent. Obviously you can't physically "touch" your gallbladder. But you can touch the outside of your body, and you can feel the pain from the nerves which extend out toward the outside world.

Or if you smash your thumb with a hammer. Nail turns black, very painful to touch. Of course it isn't the "nail" itself that hurts, it is the sensitive tissue underneath. But touching the nail initiates a pain response because that nail is directly attached to the sensitive tissue underneath that is damaged.

And neither can you physically touch the coffin bone, or corium, or any of the other internal structures of the foot. But you CAN touch the sole, and when you do, you CAN get a pain response, and that's the point I was trying to make. Semantics. ;)

slb

May. 31, 2006, 10:41 AM

That is why I asked for clarification of what they are considering the "sole". If they just consider the horn tissue that is evident on the bottom of the hoof the sole, then technically, what they are saying is correct. But, the "sole" is like any other part of the external structures of the body...it has layers...the "dead" (insensative) outside, the interior where some growth originates from - corium - and a "middle" part (sorry for the lack of technical terms, but I would rather eveyone have a clear understanding of the construction rather than the jargon) in which vascular papillae are inserted into the horn tubules.

Considering Bowker's latest research that implies proprioceptors are not only found in the frog buttress, but also in the bars and the toe area of the sole....raises cause for concern when disussing what might and might not be "non-sensitive" sole.

goeslikestink

May. 31, 2006, 05:59 PM

soles
do hurt tread on a stone with a thin soled horse and its ouchy ouch for if they didnt feel if they were thin then you could ride all day long and when you doing atest in the sand in say dressage would it bother the horse or mybe you trod on one on all four feet -- how would you determine footsore not just the outsides can be sore but the soles thems elves if it didnt then and have no blood or nerves then why would it briuse if briused sole and why if pick would it bleed -- dont be so daft ---

if i took my cob shoes of not a porblem she could go down a toney track and not feela thing she has hard soles and good feet

but if i was to that with graice of has thins soles it would take mebaout 1/2 an hour to go the same distnace as she would
pick her way thorugh as she is thin soled --

Auventera Two

May. 31, 2006, 07:27 PM

if i took my cob shoes of not a porblem she could go down a toney track and not feela thing she has hard soles and good feet

but if i was to that with graice of has thins soles it would take mebaout 1/2 an hour to go the same distnace as she would
pick her way thorugh as she is thin soled --

Just curious as to why the cob has shoes on then.

May. 31, 2006, 09:34 PM

soles
do hurt tread on a stone with a thin soled horse and its ouchy

But it's not the sole itself that hurts, it's the structures behind the sole that is making ground contact that hurts :)

The thick soled horse isn't ouchy because he has all that thick sole protecting the inner, sensitive structures :)

Tree

Jun. 1, 2006, 09:51 AM

Sole was already defined earlier in this thread by Lookout, I believe. Refer back to it again for the definition.

The only way I can try to explain it is in this way. Let's take human footwear as an example. I'll use thin soled driving shoes and compare them to thin soles in horses. These things are only meant for wearing inside the car while driving vs everyday outdoor use. I'm a tenderfoot so if I were to walk across our gravel parking area (sharp quarry stone), I'd be ouchy. Those thin soles wouldn't protect my feet. If I change into shoes with thicker soles, I'd be better protected.

Soles are a protective outer layer for the undersides of hooves. Hoof shape which would leave soles too flat will not provide enough clearance for those inner structures from the environment. The soles will cover them but sole is flexible vs rigid and will give if outside footing doesn't give beneath the horse's weight. If soles were so sensative, they'd be a useless to a horse. It's the inner structures that are so sensative. The papillae which insert into the sole are sensative too.

I trim soles thin at times and if they were so sensative at that level, how would horses allow it to be done? It's because I'm not pressing my knife into their thin sole but shaving thin layers off instead with very light pressure. If I were to add pressure to these areas the horses would react but it's not the sole that is so reactive but the structures beneath the sole instead.

Those of you who keep saying soles are sensative are referring to weightbearing examples. Yes, bruising can occur but bruising isn't limited to thin soled situations. I often find bruises beneath thick sole or beneath excess bar or wall horn too.

Tree

slb

Jun. 1, 2006, 10:44 AM

Sole was already defined earlier in this thread by Lookout, I believe. Refer back to it again for the definition.
Thanks Tree, I will look that up.

I trim soles thin at times and if they were so sensative at that level, how would horses allow it to be done? It's because I'm not pressing my knife into their thin sole but shaving thin layers off instead with very light pressure. If I were to add pressure to these areas the horses would react but it's not the sole that is so reactive but the structures beneath the sole instead.

Not trying to disagree with you Tree, but for the sake of "let's consider"....why would you intentionally trim a sole thin if you understand the implications that you have noted here....that you are not hurting the sole during trimming, but when it becomes weight bearing, it will most likely be uncomfortable to some degree.

slb

Jun. 1, 2006, 11:00 AM

No, it is not. Nothing is taught in farrier schools about how to trim a foot to leave it barefoot. A barefoot farrier trim is one that has been trimmed for shoes and the shoes weren't put on.
Someone may have already done this......
What FARRIER school did you attend that you know that this is FACT? If you don't know it is fact, then why say it with so much conviction.

It is not fact.....there are some schools that do teach the difference between a barefoot trim and setting the hoof up for shoes. I know pleanty of farriers that have an understanding of....and do this.

I once watched a farrier do this on a four year old that was still barefoot and asked him why.
Why would the dumbness of one farrier reflect on all farriers? Isn't it PIC to sterotype? If this were true, I would have big issues with every barefoot trimmer that comes down the pike....I have seen many with certs (some are even teaching others) that are worse than most farriers' work I have seen. But, I don't judge all barefoot trimmers...or all farriers on a few bad ones. There are good and bad in all.

I've had this conversation with a much more intelligent farrier who would only keep saying that his job was to trim the foot back to how it had been six weeks ago, as that was "growth", that was to be removed. Nothing about angles or use of the limb on the ground or anything.
I would hardly classify this farrier as "much more intelligent" :eek: This isn't any more indicative of what a GOOD farrier knows than the first guy.

slb

Jun. 1, 2006, 11:09 AM

Sole was already defined earlier in this thread by Lookout, I believe. Refer back to it again for the definition.

If this is definition you are talking about....
Soles are not tender. They are hard, keratizined horn, which is a metabolic waste product, i.e - dead. Just like the wall. They have no blood vessels or nerves in them, which is why you can cut them with a knife.
I would agree that this is a partial definition...but serves no real purpose in describing the full characteristics of the sole. It is only describing the protective covering on the bottom of the hoof....there is more to it than that.

Self-limiting definitions like this only serve to add to the confusion of the issue. While I agree that the protective bottom portion of the sole that is defined here is non-sensative, dead and therefore not generally open to damage or causing foot soreness...the deeper structures of the sole are.

Auventera Two

Jun. 1, 2006, 11:11 AM

I trim soles thin at times and if they were so sensative at that level, how would horses allow it to be done? It's because I'm not pressing my knife into their thin sole but shaving thin layers off instead with very light pressure. If I were to add pressure to these areas the horses would react but it's not the sole that is so reactive but the structures beneath the sole instead.

I'm curious as to why you would be trimming such soles at all? What would be the reason? What kind of protection are these horses given after you trim their soles so thin? What do the owners say about this? I guess I've never heard a person say that they knowingly trim a horse's soles so thin that they know he will be lame. I would have to say I have a problem with trimming a horse's soles if even a bit of pressure with the hoof knife would cause pain. If that's the case, then it would stand to reason that when the horse bears weight on that thin sole, he is going to be REALLY sore. Remember - a farrier scalped my mare's feet down to painful little nubs and it took a year for her to fully recover. I'd really like you to elaborate on your theory and application. Thanks!

Thomas_1

Jun. 1, 2006, 03:24 PM

Thought some of you might be interested in how the UK Regulate and control the training and operation of farriers by taking a look at the following link...

http://www.farrier-reg.gov.uk/is%20yours%20registered.htm

Jun. 1, 2006, 04:26 PM

So does that mean that anybody can go trim a horse, but you just have to be licensed to actually apply shoes?

slb

Jun. 1, 2006, 05:29 PM

Good question JB....
In Germany, you have to be a licensed/certified (not sure what they class it as) farrier in order to even trim a horse. However, Strasser requested special regulations be applied to her certified trimmers....ie, only SHPs can professionally trim in Germany....and I believe they have to pass a test with the German board as well. Maybe the resident SHP can comment further on that.:)

Tree

Jun. 1, 2006, 08:26 PM

Not trying to disagree with you Tree, but for the sake of "let's consider"....why would you intentionally trim a sole thin if you understand the implications that you have noted here....that you are not hurting the sole during trimming, but when it becomes weight bearing, it will most likely be uncomfortable to some degree.

I can be very specific as to WHERE I would end up having thinned sole and where it I would NOT trim it thin. The "why" part relates to hoof function while doing CORRECTIVE work.

Simply put, I would not thin sole where it will be weightbearing.

I end up finding thin to non-existant sole where bar material has been left overlaying sole. Then I also end up thinning sole beside the frog while getting down to where the dirtlines end and sole/frog meet cleanly.

Thinning can be a very relative term because some people will not touch sole that doesn't readily flake off. How thin is thin? To me, the extreme meaning of thin borders on hitting the tops of the papillae.

At any rate, I understand why "I" trim soles. It has to do with getting hooves in a form so they can function. Are the horses sore? Well, it depends a lot on what conditions existed prior to the trim. How thin is thin sole? That's subjective.

Tree

Tree

Jun. 1, 2006, 08:40 PM

If this is definition you are talking about....

I would agree that this is a partial definition...but serves no real purpose in describing the full characteristics of the sole. It is only describing the protective covering on the bottom of the hoof....there is more to it than that.

Self-limiting definitions like this only serve to add to the confusion of the issue. While I agree that the protective bottom portion of the sole that is defined here is non-sensative, dead and therefore not generally open to damage or causing foot soreness...the deeper structures of the sole are.

Self-limiting? Well, that's up to each individual who reads what they do and either accepts or rejects what all they read. I believe the tendency is to accept what makes sense or goes along with how someone was already thinking. That can be self-limiting alright. ;) However, does it pass the acid test, so to speak?

Just reading through threads where people say horses had ouchy feet in general mention thin soles. How thin is thin? Are we talking barely a mm or more? How thick is thick? Are we talking cm's or less? More confusion can be created just digging in to that subject.

What IS the consistency of sole next to corium? The best answer I can give, from field work, shows that sole nearer to the corium is more moist/soft vs the outer layers. I can trim it without a horse jerking away providing I don't place too much pressure against the sole with my knife blade. Hmmm, so where's the sensativity coming from if a horse reacts? Best I can tell is that it's from INSIDE beyond the inner sole.

Sure, a nail puncture to the sole is painful but again, was it the sole or where the nail invaded the sensative structures that was so painful? Well I can say that I've found some things lodged in soles before which did not cause horses to react. These were small grit sized stones.

I still think thin soled horses are reactive only because they lack sole thickness. Add pads to their feet and they are no longer sensative. They're still pressing on their THIN soles though. If the soles were so sensative, how could a pad help?

Tree

Tree

Jun. 1, 2006, 08:46 PM

I'm curious as to why you would be trimming such soles at all? What would be the reason? What kind of protection are these horses given after you trim their soles so thin? What do the owners say about this? I guess I've never heard a person say that they knowingly trim a horse's soles so thin that they know he will be lame. I would have to say I have a problem with trimming a horse's soles if even a bit of pressure with the hoof knife would cause pain. If that's the case, then it would stand to reason that when the horse bears weight on that thin sole, he is going to be REALLY sore. Remember - a farrier scalped my mare's feet down to painful little nubs and it took a year for her to fully recover. I'd really like you to elaborate on your theory and application. Thanks!

I think to better answer your questions you'd first have to see examples of what I'm talking about and go from there. How curious are you? When I trim soles thin I'm doing it for a damn good reason. The horses know this when they set their hooves down and react with licking, chewing, yawning and sometimes huge sighs.

Again though, how thin is thin? You don't know simply be reading where I say I'll thin sole. It may be 1/4" thick! WHERE is it that I'm thinning the soles? Again, unless you watch me working, you can only imagine just like you are imagining how 'sore' the horses are afterwards. You DON'T know. You are assuming that what I'm talking about remotely resembles what happened to your mare's feet.

I could elaborate more but what would be the point of doing so? Come watch me work.

Tree

slb

Jun. 1, 2006, 09:41 PM

I still think thin soled horses are reactive only because they lack sole thickness. Add pads to their feet and they are no longer sensative. They're still pressing on their THIN soles though. If the soles were so sensative, how could a pad help?
But looking at it from another perspective....
If you add a pad, then there is more pressure on the sole...hense more on the sensative tissues inside...like when you put on thick socks....thicker doesn't necessarily = comfortable...it can actually be painful.

In some cases, yes, a cushioned pad might allow a small stone to be stepped on and it would crush slightly without putting more pressure on the sole. But, this is not always the case.

I think that there are possibly too many "put offs" to "thin soles"....that may or may not be an issue...it could just as likely be any number of other things....I have seen dx of thin soles without the vet even seeing the hoof. I also experienced a vet saying that the horse was sore from thin sole that she saw on both x-ray and in person. The farrier actually found that the horse had extra thickness in the sole that was causing an issue.

slb

Jun. 1, 2006, 09:57 PM

...The horses know this when they set their hooves down and react with licking, chewing, yawning and sometimes huge sighs.
Who taught you this wonderous insight into horse mentality?

I can't tell you how good this makes me feel! :cool:

My very own farrier notes the same identical things (he never mentioned yarwning though) on every horse he shoes! :D I know that I have seen it too when holding horses...not just mine, but lots of others.

I feel so fortunate to know with great conviction from barefoot trimmers that he is doing such a good job that the horses feel as good as if they were getting a correct, optimally functioning, best-of-the-best barefoot trim! :yes:

Tree you have made my day! :winkgrin:

goeslikestink

Jun. 1, 2006, 10:12 PM

i shoe my cob cause i use her a lot and road work i dont want her to be foot sore becuase i had worn her feet down via the roads

and i jump her to shes in competions same to with oillie in winter time beaucse of the weather i take there shoes off as to blooming icy to go out so ride in school or dont bother not enough hours in the day

i dont just take my horses out fo a jog for 10mins or i can be an hour to 4 hours out and l like to work my horses as soon as they out the gate

i mean i school going down the road

my others are used in the field as they do kid lessons on a saturday as they semi retired so no shoes on but if they was still in full time work then even my 11.2hh would have shoes -- and before you say it they work to keep mobile and healthy and fit-- and they work becuase they love the attention the kids give them as they love kids-- mine are grown up and babay is to young yet -- hoping raspberry will still be here for him
gracie at the moment hasnt any shoes on but will at end of month
as being brought back into work due to debs lay up od havingbaby

my horses can go with or with out and yes bonnie does have good strong feet-- but i do alot of road work sometimes

and her shoes are not like yours they fit as i have her hot shod
5 nails and two stud holes in each foot as when shes jumping shes quick to turn and i dont want her going over or slipping and she never has with shoes on--
depending on the ground and ground management of event can cause slipping
with out shoes --so yes i do
i do both thanks i chose to not to do retires becuase they dont warrant enough work and therre feet are good and trim is all that needed

but the ones in full time work have a varied amount of teraine to go over
and i beleive shoe pretect the feet from many things --and dont try to diswade me either-- there isd nothing wrong with my shoes at all nor there feet--
and i will tell you also that in my life span i have never had any problems
with shoes or feet due to a farrier -- have had raspberry corrective shoeing when brought her as a 2yr old shes 22yrs now good farrier put her feet right
and ollie has a bit of boxy foot on front but i knew that- thats nothing to do with the farrier i brought him like it same to with raspberry but hes fine
and graice is flat footed but i knew that to -- thats nothing to do with bad farrier husbandary its her in her make up same to as the others

our farriers trim both barefoot and shoe i trust my farrier if he didnt do a good job i wouldnt have him-- simple

Holly121859

Jun. 1, 2006, 10:29 PM

My husband is a farrier, non-certified but he did go to school for 4 months and also worked with a certified farrier for about a year. I often help him when he does trims/shoeing so I have learned a lot over the years...he also was horrified with the first photos of the shoeing job...said basically everything that was said before regarding balance etc. His philosophy is that you shoe a horse when the wear exceeds the growth and otherwise barring some major unsoundness you don't need shoes, just balanced trimming. Trimming the sole is based on sole pressure to determine thickness. If a shoe is fitted properly you shouldn't need more than 6 nails to hold it...if using clips should only need 4 nail maximum....besides...if a shoe is going to come off I prefer it to come off clean...and leave the hoof wall intact...easier and cheaper to make a new shoe than to get into rebuilding hooves with synthetics. One thing I didn't see mentioned here was if the horse has a problem with thrush or any other type of infection/abscess it is an excellent idea to soak the foot or treat it...he often used something called Clean Trax or used White lightning or any other brand of similar medication...one or two soaks made a WORLD of difference in growth speed and quality. Granted, not all certified farriers are doing good jobs...but at least it is a STARTING point to try and prove they have some education....in our area there are many people who just buy a rasp and nippers and claim they are farriers...lots of the work is absolutely atrocious. There also is a difference between AFA certified and the brotherhood certification. I even saw one person whose card claimed they had a PHD in horseshoeing...to the best of my knowledge (and the knowledge of several certified farriers I know) there IS no such thing...but most people don't know the difference....and many of the horse owners don't know the difference either...they think if the guy doing to horse is fast and if the shoe stays on all summer they must be doing a great job. Anyway, I am not the farrier but that is my two cents worth!

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 2, 2006, 12:23 AM

Hey guys. Thanks for keeping the thread going.

I knew it was a holiday weekend so didnt expect much. Actually, Monday, we moved out of our house, so I had a lot going on anyways. The only person who DID call me back was the massage therapist. I spoke to her about what was going on and we agreed on a lot of things. I gave her the name of one of the two farriers I was refered to and she said that he was really good. I told her I would call her when I heard from a farrier as I didnt think it would work best to get her massaged and then do her feet, b/c shed had to come right back.

I got the # for the one farrier who I was told would probably be able to help me again and called him today. He called me back and told me he wasnt taking new customers. Neither is the other farrier I was suggested. And both farriers suggested each other but neither of them are accepting new people. Ugh.

I got one more suggestion and the # from the massage therapist, and one of the farriers I was suggested to from here via Email emailed me back and Im going to call him tomorrow, as well as a farrier who responded on horseshoes.com (thanks to those 2 people who helping with PTs and other postings!)

The mares had a week off and is not visably sore and I cannot get a reaction when I press into her back and hindquarters. But I dont like her movement while on the lunge. Shes short and tense, obviously not comfy. The more and more I have to look at the feet, the more upset I get. Im just really hoping someone will be able to help me.

One of the farriers I am calling tomorrow said he does a few other horses in the same area I am in, and will be up here Sunday. And Im off work Sunday. So hope that works out. Hes the farrier that BensMom used and was refered to from here as well.

Thanks for the concern guys. Ill def keep everyone updated. I am lucky to get online now. Our new house isnt ready so The Moms and I are living in a hotel with the cats while my step dad and the dogs have to camp out at the unfinished house. Luckily though, since I connect to my parents internet via wireless connection, I am able to take advantage of the free wireless connection at the hotel!! :cool:

Auventera Two

Jun. 2, 2006, 07:21 AM

I think to better answer your questions you'd first have to see examples of what I'm talking about and go from there. How curious are you? When I trim soles thin I'm doing it for a damn good reason. The horses know this when they set their hooves down and react with licking, chewing, yawning and sometimes huge sighs.

Again though, how thin is thin? You don't know simply be reading where I say I'll thin sole. It may be 1/4" thick! WHERE is it that I'm thinning the soles? Again, unless you watch me working, you can only imagine just like you are imagining how 'sore' the horses are afterwards. You DON'T know. You are assuming that what I'm talking about remotely resembles what happened to your mare's feet.

I could elaborate more but what would be the point of doing so? Come watch me work.

Tree

You think that I "imagine" sore horses? One incident with one mare of mine is NOT the sum total of my experience with sore footed horses. I could tell you about quite a few experiences in which I watched horses hobble around on nubs for days or even weeks and sometimes longer after a farrier butchered their feet. And not all of them were my horses either. I've seen it happen at boarding barns. Farrier comes and leaves, and horse hobbles back to his stall.

So is trimming soles thin for a "damn good reason" something they teach in strasser school? Just curious. And yes, I would love for you to expound on WHY you trim soles thin for a damn good reason. Just wondering if it would be one of the same reasons why my horses have been trimmed thin on a few ocassions and therefore lame for a long time afterwards. I'm trying to get my mind around exactly WHAT farriers think they're fixing when they scalp a foot off and leave the horse sore or completely lame. Thanks!

Auventera Two

Jun. 2, 2006, 07:32 AM

I trim soles thin at times and if they were so sensative at that level, how would horses allow it to be done? It's because I'm not pressing my knife into their thin sole but shaving thin layers off instead with very light pressure. If I were to add pressure to these areas the horses would react but it's not the sole that is so reactive but the structures beneath the sole instead.

Tree

I'll try the question again. WHY would you ever trim sole even THINNER when it is already so thin it cannot handle the pressure of your knife? In a later post you mentioned that those parts you are trimming are not weight bearing so it doesn't matter. Well, all it takes is the horse to walk out across VARRIED terrain and that part of the sole can become weight bearing. Step on a stick, rock, anything, and that horse will be in pain.

I've had absesses occur on 3 ocassions that I can recall when farriers thinned the soles of my horses. The sole is too think to effectively protect the sensitive tissue beneath so serious bruising and subsequent absessing can occur. (and does occur in some ocassions.)

So again - why would you knowingly put the horse in this situation? Maybe there are legitimate reasons. Maybe there are not.

slb

Jun. 2, 2006, 08:08 AM

Tree....I am curious....you said...
Those of you who keep saying soles are sensative are referring to weightbearing examples.
Why would we not be talking about a weightbearing sole? Since the sole is an intergral part of the overall hoof structure, and it does, as you pointed out, flex....then other than when the hoof is lifted off the ground, when would it not be weightbearing? :confused:

Since it is a non-fixed (flexable) part that is firmly affixed to the parts of the hoof that surround it, then whenever any other part of the hoof is weightbearing, the sole would have to be too. This would follow simple laws of physics.

I guess I just don't get your point here? :confused:

Tree

Jun. 2, 2006, 09:01 AM

But looking at it from another perspective....
If you add a pad, then there is more pressure on the sole...hense more on the sensative tissues inside...like when you put on thick socks....thicker doesn't necessarily = comfortable...it can actually be painful.

Yes, but I wasn't thinking of just padding a barefoot, although that is how some treat founder cases....just tape a foam pad to the bottoms of the sore feet. No, I was thinking in terms of those who will add an even thickness pad and shoe the horse because it has thin soles. The shoe then relieves the soles because it'll place the weightbearing back onto the walls and the pad will protect the thin sole adding another layer between it and the ground too.

So, we're just not on the same page here. That's all. How many people put on socks to go shoeless? :D

In some cases, yes, a cushioned pad might allow a small stone to be stepped on and it would crush slightly without putting more pressure on the sole. But, this is not always the case.

In my example I was referring to bare sole...no pad.

I think that there are possibly too many "put offs" to "thin soles"....that may or may not be an issue...it could just as likely be any number of other things....I have seen dx of thin soles without the vet even seeing the hoof. I also experienced a vet saying that the horse was sore from thin sole that she saw on both x-ray and in person. The farrier actually found that the horse had extra thickness in the sole that was causing an issue.

I agree. If a Vet fixates on sole thickness and would ignore coffin bone alignment, it would be an incomplete dx, IMO. I would also have to ask the Vet to give the "ideal" ranges for sole thickness that they go by. I'd also want to know how they would go about gaining more sole.

I too have found thick sole to cause problems. Someone could say I'm "thinning" sole when I trim away excess. I would rather rely on the horse though and hoof function.

Tree

Tree

Jun. 2, 2006, 09:10 AM

Who taught you this wonderous insight into horse mentality?

I can't tell you how good this makes me feel! :cool:

:rolleyes: Ray Hunt was the first person to point this reaction out to me. I read in Tom and Bill Dorrances books about it too. Then there was Buck Brannaman and more of these cowboys who do natural horsemanship who point it out. Then Strasser spoke about the same things as horses respond to their hooves being trimmed.

My very own farrier notes the same identical things (he never mentioned yarwning though) on every horse he shoes! :D I know that I have seen it too when holding horses...not just mine, but lots of others.

Did I say "every horse"? I don't think so. At any rate, it's a natural reaction horses give. Whether or not they do it for the same exact reasons would depend on the horse and circumstances. ;)

I feel so fortunate to know with great conviction from barefoot trimmers that he is doing such a good job that the horses feel as good as if they were getting a correct, optimally functioning, best-of-the-best barefoot trim! :yes:

Tree you have made my day! :winkgrin:

Your sarcasm is noted. :rolleyes: :D

I don't think shod horses lick and chew for the same reasons optimally functional bare hooved horses do. The hoof functions would be very different.

But you're happy and I guess that's what matters.

Tree

Thomas_1

Jun. 2, 2006, 09:19 AM

So does that mean that anybody can go trim a horse, but you just have to be licensed to actually apply shoes?

Its unlawful to trim a foot as part of preparation for shoeing too. However those 'so called' unregulated minimally trained barefoot trimmers that practice such as the Strasser technique can do a botched trim and be exempt - however there is other regulation that we have to prevent them causing suffering to equines and again which is much more stringent.

http://www.wcf.org.uk/overview.htm

Tree

Jun. 2, 2006, 09:19 AM

Add pads to their feet and they're no longer sensitive?? LOL! Not necessarily! My mare who had her feet scalped back to nubs couldn't handle pads, even after 3-4 months of growth. We tried and she was more lame with them than she was without them. She stood in a stall and couldn't walk. She started laying down 12 hours a day. So the farrier came out that same week and removed the shoes and pads. It was NOT a fun year for us. The mare was completely lame for a very long time. She was under veterinary care for pain management.

So clearly pads made this situation much worse. In fact, this mare always went better in just shoes than she did in shoes plus pads. And that isn't the first time I've heard that mentioned on this forum either. I've read a couple of accounts of horses who were sore with pads on.

Edited for spelling

This is still only one example of soreness. Again, I don't doubt your experiences. I'd be more interested in the dynamics and mechanical aspects though. You know, the nuts and bolts of things that help to explain the whys and hows. How were your mare's bones aligned in her lower limbs? If shoes had always worked, why the sudden change in trimming? Your mare was standing. Stalls don't often encourage a horse to move much and inflammation is much worse in an idle animal's hooves than a moving one.

Tree

Tree

Jun. 2, 2006, 09:34 AM

You think that I "imagine" sore horses? One incident with one mare of mine is NOT the sum total of my experience with sore footed horses. I could tell you about quite a few experiences in which I watched horses hobble around on nubs for days or even weeks and sometimes longer after a farrier butchered their feet. And not all of them were my horses either. I've seen it happen at boarding barns. Farrier comes and leaves, and horse hobbles back to his stall.

The part about "imagined" was directed at what you THINK my thinning soles would cause. There was no doubt in my mind that you've seen sore horses before. Did you ever discover WHY hooves were trimmed down to nubs?????

So is trimming soles thin for a "damn good reason" something they teach in strasser school? Just curious.

Don't know as I've never enrolled in Strasser's school. And again, "trimming soles thin" is a relative aspect of trimming. When you have some methods which don't "invade" live sole and others who trim only to "live sole" and still more that leave sole unless it is "exfoliating", there is room for argument and confusion. What Strasser teaches is quite specific and there are those who think trimming sole beside the frog to get rid of the dirt line would be "thinning" sole. There are more who think trimming bars low is "thinning" sole too. I don't know if Strasser would word it as I have (damn good reason), but if she is trimming sole, there IS a good reason for doing so as it relates to HOOF FUNCTION.

And yes, I would love for you to expound on WHY you trim soles thin for a damn good reason. Just wondering if it would be one of the same reasons why my horses have been trimmed thin on a few ocassions and therefore lame for a long time afterwards. I'm trying to get my mind around exactly WHAT farriers think they're fixing when they scalp a foot off and leave the horse sore or completely lame. Thanks!

If I'm to understand why your farriers, et al, would trim hooves thin (not sure where they're thinning it, btw), I guess I'd have to know their reason(s) for doing so and see examples of such. This is why I said you'd have an easier time if you watched me working and trimming soles. I'd have a foot right there to show you what it was like before and after. This "scalping off" stuff is just a written word on this forum. What part(s) of the hoof are they scalping off? My work tends to focus mainly on the regions of hoof from the frog apex (tip) on back to the heels as it pertains to trimming of the undersides. I am working towards getting the heels epxanding (mechanism) when the hooves are weighbearing. I have to keep tweaking the hoof until it works. What it takes to get function varies according to the conditions of the hoof itself. The trim will also vary according to what the horse's needs are too. Is it a working horse or rehab? Does the owner touch-up the trim in between my visits or not?

At any rate, this is some of why I do what I do. I know it isn't black and white. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

Tree

Tree

Jun. 2, 2006, 09:59 AM

I'll try the question again. WHY would you ever trim sole even THINNER when it is already so thin it cannot handle the pressure of your knife?

Hmmmm, while I'm reading your question I'm pondering how I could trim, with knife pressure, if a horse couldn't handle it. Let's narrow this down some so you'll (and others) may understand what part of the foot this could take place in. Where bar has become excessive and covered sole the sole corium can have been pinched which reduced blood for that portion of sole. The sole stopped growing and has become thin. I'm skimming layers of bar horn and then bar laminae off of this portion of sole so that blood flow can return and allow the sole to grow again. There may be no sole at all but only the thin skim of bar laminae left to provide some cover until the sole can become thicker. I'll have to trim the rest of the sole, in this localized area, to blend in vs leave lumps or thickened areas which could cause added discomfort and bruising. It is according to the shape of the inner structures and what will allow the hoof to function (expand). These could be plattered hooves or narrow contracted ones. Either way, they have issues vs healthier hooves where thinning isn't required.

In a later post you mentioned that those parts you are trimming are not weight bearing so it doesn't matter. Well, all it takes is the horse to walk out across VARRIED terrain and that part of the sole can become weight bearing. Step on a stick, rock, anything, and that horse will be in pain.

Rehabbing horses have terrain requirements. If the living conditions aren't ideal, their feet can be booted with soaking boots and Vibram inserts to help them be more comfortable. If the harsher terrain is in isolated areas the horse can avoid, they will avoid it. If they have to cross it, they will do it with great care at their own pace because they'll feel their way across it. If they stepped on a rock or stick that hurt, they would stop and reposition the foot vs fully weight it and hurt themselves worse.

I've had absesses occur on 3 ocassions that I can recall when farriers thinned the soles of my horses. The sole is too think to effectively protect the sensitive tissue beneath so serious bruising and subsequent absessing can occur. (and does occur in some ocassions.)

So again - why would you knowingly put the horse in this situation? Maybe there are legitimate reasons. Maybe there are not.

Bruising can occur when soles are too thick too. Not knowing more details about the situations you mention I can't make any comment as to whether or not sole thinning caused the bruising and abscesses. How soon after the soles were thinned did the abscesses appear? For that matter, how soon after the thinning did the bruises show up?

As to why I would knowingly put a horse in this situation, I can't say that I am if you're comparing it to what you've seen. I don't know how my trims compare to what you've seen and are talking about.

So I cannot really answer this question.

Tree

Auventera Two

Jun. 2, 2006, 10:16 AM

EqTrainer

Jun. 2, 2006, 10:20 AM

Jun. 2, 2006, 10:35 AM

Its unlawful to trim a foot as part of preparation for shoeing too. However those 'so called' unregulated minimally trained barefoot trimmers that practice such as the Strasser technique can do a botched trim and be exempt - however there is other regulation that we have to prevent them causing suffering to equines and again which is much more stringent.

http://www.wcf.org.uk/overview.htm
Right, but since the rules stated you can't trim in preparation for shoes, or put shoes on, if you aren't licensed, I was just curious whether you could be unlicensed and trim with no intention of putting shoes on, since it didn't state anything about that :)

Thanks for the education :)

Tree

Jun. 2, 2006, 10:42 AM

I think horses yawn and chew because they're bored. The last time the farrier was out, my mother's OTTB mare literally fell asleep in the aisle during her trim and her knees started to buckle. I patted her on the neck and jiggled her rope and her head snapped up. It looked like she scared herself. But nevertheless, at the end of the trim, she hobbled back down the concrete out the back of the barn. Very sore. Feet trimmed very short. Would you have interpreted her complete relaxation and subsequent falling asleep with contentment from the trim?

I don't believe a horse is able to "tell" you that he likes your trimming job by yawning and chewing. I think this is anthropomorphizing at its finest. But that is only my opinion of course! :)

I think SOME horses might yawn and chew when bored. Others will act up when bored or otherwise entertain themselves for something better to do.

I've had horses literally fall asleep while I worked on front legs in particular. I've been told that there's an acu-pressure point in the front limbs that will effectively cause a horse to act dopey.

Horses seem to doze off more mid-day and become more active during the cooler times of day. Maybe your horse had it's feet done during nap time. I dunno. The yawning and chewing weren't related to the causes for it hobbling away afterwards though. She may be resigned to the fact that her trims will mean sore feet though. Why do you not make a farrier change if you're so unhappy with the results?

Tree

Tree

Jun. 2, 2006, 11:00 AM

I am dealing right now with a horse that has a thin sole by veterinarian definition (7 mm) but he appears to have a false sole and/or impacted bars at the same time. I am facing the exact dilemna that Tree describes. As of today, no one can advise me as to what is the right thing to do. My horse is very sore and everyone has a different idea as to why and everyone is afraid to do anything lest it be wrong.

It's a shame that someone won't try SOMETHING and see what the results are...trial and error approach vs thinking of things but not making any attempts. It's one thing to have ideas but useless if they aren't tried, IMO. How frustrating!!!

My gut instinct is that he needs this hard as a rock, almost level to the ground sole removed in order to grow an eventually thicker, not impacted and mashed, sole. I think this started when he was overtrimmed until he was bearing weight on already mashed bars and it has just become a vicious cycle. Nonetheless I am not knowledgable enough at this point to trust my gut and start carving away.

Level to the ground sole? Oh my. Yes, that could create too much pressure between the underside of the coffin bone and inner sole basically sandwiching the corium in between, pinched, squished and otherwise mashed. Ouch! These horses are particularly sore on firm footing and only somewhat relieved on softer going because the ground will give. With the weighted phases of movement the coffin bone would descend some and a concave sole would draw flatter some too in a hoof that was shaped to function as it should. This would prevent pinching of corium as the boney structures and hoof capsule worked in harmony vs against one another.

I just wanted to post this to perhaps help anyone who is unsure as to what Tree is referring to, to understand that this is indeed within the realm of possibility, as crazy as it might sound. That you might have to trim an already thin sole, into a thinner sole, to ultimately grow a healthier sole. Also don't forget that anytime you trim heels or bars or soles they seem to rejuvenate quickly/quicker. Perhaps trimming the sole in this manner stimulates its growth, I don't know.

Basically where you thinned the excess sole is where it's opposing the inner structures and screwing up the hoof capsules function. So it is selective areas that are trimmed. Where sole should remain it will not be trimmed. When you have bars appearing to grow overnight it's more a case of impacted bar material relaxing down vs actual growth. Bar horn can back up well into the inner hoof capsule and crowd the inner structures particularly the navicular bone. Horses can become MORE sore if heels were simply lowered without the bars being trimmed like they needed to be too. This is why people will think they erred in lowering the heels but they just didn't finish the trim by also addressing the bars. Now the horse is set up for more pain because lowering the heels set their weight back towards the heels vs toes. So more force comes to bear on the bars. Where sole appears to be growing back fast can actually not be sole at all but bar instead. Sole grows at a much slower rate than the outer walls. Bars are a continuation of the outer walls so is the same material as the outer walls.

For now, I am gathering information. The jury is still out as to whether or not he needs his sole trimmed and then to be booted or does he need to be left alone to grow more sole or... well, I have been given a lot of ideas and a lot of possibilities, the list of diagnosis's made is long.

Have you lined up anyone yet? I think the proof will finally come when you find someone who isn't afraid to do SOMETHING and see how the horses hooves, and horse, respond.

Tree

SuperSTB

Jun. 2, 2006, 11:20 AM

I'm trying to follow what is being described in the last couple posts and I *think* both are speaking about different situations.

In preparing a hoof for either a trim of shoe- there is a certain degree of preparing the sole plane and that would be exfoliating. However you will find some farriers (this a common method actually for some do) where the toe sole callous will be thinned to help angle the hoof to correct pastern alignment. Distal P3 is protected by this callous but 'shoes' tend to protect the area which was removed.

As the heels of the horse grow longer and further forward (and outward) the hoof bars will curve, sometimes fracture but eventually lay over the sole. This is dead matter and confused by some to actually be the sole.

Now there is live sole and there is dead sole- live sole is waxy and smooth, dead sole can be crumbly white stuff or it can be hard as a rock or it can be flaky. This is dependent on evironment and the horse.

When I first approach the hoof- I 'exfoliate' the sole as needed, bring back the heals, trim the excess bars, only trim off the frog excess shedding pieces- I want as much frog contact as possible. Nip and rasp hoof wall to proper relation to the sole plane- barely touching toe callous. I'll rocker the toe just a tad, remove flares. I've pulled many many shoes where the heels just were too far forward- the bars overlayed all the way to the hoof wall. (Delays breakover which some people strive for but I like to point out to owner that there are very valid studies that demonstrate why this shouldn't be done.) Anyhow... In these cases it would take more than one trim to start 'correcting' problems. Maybe that's the confusing point as to 'removing sole'??? I'm only speculating towards your discussion though.

Anyhow- as to soreness. Everyone has an opinion to whether their horse is 'sore' or not. Most often I find the horse just needs a time of adjustment to the changes made to his feet. I see this with shoes or just trims. People tend to 'pay more attention' to a barefoot horse over a shod horse in terms of this adjustment because I think most people are so concerned that their horse 'can't' go barefoot.

Auventera Two

Jun. 2, 2006, 12:56 PM

Why do you not make a farrier change if you're so unhappy with the results?

Tree

I have. I hired myself for the job. Over the last 10 years we've had 4 different farriers - all of which think sore, hobbling horses is normal and acceptable. The closest barefoot trimmer is over 2 hours away. So when there are no other solutions - you just have to do it yourself. :winkgrin: It takes a lot of learning and dedication, but I think a person CAN do it. The farrier is coming next Saturday to trim my mother's horses. While he's there I want him to look at my horses and give me his opinion on my trimming thus far. That should be interesting! lol

Auventera Two

Jun. 2, 2006, 01:02 PM

When you have bars appearing to grow overnight it's more a case of impacted bar material relaxing down vs actual growth. Bar horn can back up well into the inner hoof capsule and crowd the inner structures particularly the navicular bone.

Tree

Do you have any technical data, studies, or disections to back this up with? If so, please reference it so I can read it. Thanks!

EqTrainer

Jun. 2, 2006, 01:35 PM

I

Have you lined up anyone yet? I think the proof will finally come when you find someone who isn't afraid to do SOMETHING and see how the horses hooves, and horse, respond.

Tree
Yes, I just got off the phone w/Sandy.. she will be back on town on the 14th and we will go from there. I will have his films back next week and could post them if it would be interesting...

Jun. 2, 2006, 04:57 PM

EqTrainer, clean up your PMs! :p

Lookout

Jun. 2, 2006, 06:51 PM

Do you have any technical data, studies, or disections to back this up with? If so, please reference it so I can read it. Thanks!

Hey, could you follow up with those studies that show trimming the sole creates a "wound"?

ET, do you know what the vet is basing 7mm sole as "thin" on? According to both Bowker and KC La Pierre, 5 mm is more than adequate. Sounds like you need some good skilled help with that one.

Tree

Jun. 3, 2006, 09:13 AM

I'm trying to follow what is being described in the last couple posts and I *think* both are speaking about different situations.

I don't know other than someone is trying to lump my trimming in with scalped off trims. I am quite sure I'm not "scalping" hooves.

In preparing a hoof for either a trim of shoe- there is a certain degree of preparing the sole plane and that would be exfoliating. However you will find some farriers (this a common method actually for some do) where the toe sole callous will be thinned to help angle the hoof to correct pastern alignment. Distal P3 is protected by this callous but 'shoes' tend to protect the area which was removed.

I'm more familiar with farriers rasping the bottoms of the hooves until they're flat/level as prep for receiving a shoe. If it's a reset situation, they will have taken their nippers and trimmed off all the outer wall which was above the sole plane, knock out the exfoliating sole and trim ragged bits from the frog. Removing calloused sole (which isn't the sort to exfoliate), would leave hooves at a steeper angle and effectively shorten the toe plus thin the protective layer of toe sole the hoof needed. Calloused sole indicates, to me, that the hoof lacked sufficient toe height but the reasons could vary. With shod hooves, unless the time between resets was excessive the lack of toe height could be blamed on removing toe callous. A calloused toe sole in a shoes situation would be odd since shoes aren't supposed to make sole contact.

As the heels of the horse grow longer and further forward (and outward) the hoof bars will curve, sometimes fracture but eventually lay over the sole. This is dead matter and confused by some to actually be the sole.

This sounds like a case of bars not being trimmed enough, high heels and tight shoeing if the heels would end up being "outward" too. Bars are more likely to fracture when the heels run under and crush inward vs outwards. In that case the bars become bent and fracture in the center of the bend.

Now there is live sole and there is dead sole- live sole is waxy and smooth, dead sole can be crumbly white stuff or it can be hard as a rock or it can be flaky. This is dependent on evironment and the horse.

This is why people become confused when distinguishing live from dead sole.

Anyhow- as to soreness. Everyone has an opinion to whether their horse is 'sore' or not. Most often I find the horse just needs a time of adjustment to the changes made to his feet. I see this with shoes or just trims. People tend to 'pay more attention' to a barefoot horse over a shod horse in terms of this adjustment because I think most people are so concerned that their horse 'can't' go barefoot.

I agree and also think that once some people get accustomed to their formerly shod horses being non-reactive to varied footing they fail to understand the mechanics behind what the shoes did to the hooves as compared to how barefoot hooves now work. It is the difference in function and how this relates to sensativity or the horse's ability to now feel what's beneath its feet. Surefooted animals are aware of what's beneath their feet.

Tree

Tree

Jun. 3, 2006, 09:27 AM

Do you have any technical data, studies, or disections to back this up with? If so, please reference it so I can read it. Thanks!

Dissections only show the hooves as they were at the time of death. Growth is severely impaired after death although I do have an empty hoof capsule that grew HAIR along the inner sole. The horse was a chestnut color and so was the hair which grew. So far it is the only hoof capsule I have in my collection which did this. This one also had impacted bar to the point that they were as high, inside the hoof capsule, as the hairline level nearer to the rear quarters and heels. On the outside (looking at the sole), they were passive (below the level of the outer walls). The frog was very puny and narrow from the contraction (bar/heel contraction) and recessed well up into the hoof (not weightbearing at all).

As far as technical data goes, it's what I've seen and had reported to me by owners who were dealing with impacted bar situations.

I don't know how much "scientific" data exists where bar growth is concerned. I dare say that since bars aren't trimmed enough, as a rule, that there isn't enough science available to fully explain their functions. If you mention trimming them more to farriers, you'll probably get the usual, "the horse needs them". Farriers seem to understand that bars serve a function but when it comes down to how much bar should they have, they don't seem too clear about it.

Tree

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 4, 2006, 07:56 PM

***UPDATE***

I have called so many farriers. I have left so many messages and either I get no call backs or the ones who do, no longer are taking new clients. I have asked everyone I know, followed the leads from online, etc. Nothing is coming about. I dont know what else to do.

I went out today and lunged her for like 5-10 mins max just to watch her from the ground. To the left, shes much more comfortable. Thats the foot that is flatter and more underrun, but the heels arent like straight up and down. She was moving pretty decent (a little tense but not like obviously uncomfortable). To the right though, I was watching her RF and walking, I noticed that she seemed to hit the ground with her toe first. I couldnt tell if she was heel first on the LF but I can tell you she landed "flatter" on all the other feet, but the RF, it almost looked like she stabbed the ground with her RF toe first. Trotting she was def uncomfortable, and the 2 circles of canter def showed that as well.

Afterwards, she got a massaging bath of Sore No More and then a real shampoo bath, conditioned mane and tail and forelock, carrots, and lots of fly spray.

But anyways, it seems like the RF is bothering her more than the LF. The RF is the one that is more upright in the angles I guess I can say.. It has more heel and has her frog WAY up off the ground.

I have called and left messages with farriers who have contacted me online and told me to call them but still, nothing. Why is this so hard??

One other local farrier who is booked suggested another guy. I called him, but he can only get up here in the afternoons, and I work until 10pm. He is only here on Tues and Thurs from Ocala, and I work EVERY Thurs and am off every other Tues. So I am not off until the 13th, so thats 2 wks away. If I cant get anyone before that, Ill use him, but I really dont want to wait that long. And I cannot take off work. I have used all my time up so I dont know what else to do. Ugh.

So anyways, thats my little update. Im still calling people every day but it seems like all the good farriers are gone (kinda like all the good cowboys? ;) Thank goodness I already have one of those ;) )

If anyone wants to come and do her from somewhere else, Ill pay for your hotel room! :D I can get good rates seeing as Im LIVING in one until the house is ready...... blah.

Auventera Two

Jun. 4, 2006, 08:54 PM

If anyone wants to come and do her from somewhere else, Ill pay for your hotel room! :D

Ok, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm REALLY overtired, but - that made me burst out laughing!!! :lol: ;) :lol:

Thomas_1

Jun. 4, 2006, 09:36 PM

Why don't you pay for someone to handle your horse for the farrier whilst you are at work??

Lookout

Jun. 4, 2006, 09:59 PM

If I were hiring a new farrier, I would certainly want to be there at tleast the first time, to discuss the case and a plan of action. I'd take off work if I had to.

EqTrainer

Jun. 4, 2006, 10:06 PM

If I were hiring a new farrier, I would certainly want to be there at tleast the first time, to discuss the case and a plan of action. I'd take off work if I had to.

When I had an office job, they knew that farrier days were sacred.. and if my horse threw a shoe they would have to get over me meeting him at his convenience. No one ever gave me a hard time about it!

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 5, 2006, 12:27 AM

Im not going to miss being there for the first time a new farrier works on my mare.

However, with my job, since I havent been there a year yet, we have limited time off (planned and unplanned). The planned time was taken last year when I started b/c I am going to be gone for 8 days for my honey moon. I am willing to get up early and be there long before I go into work (at 11:30). I can take off work IF I had the time. I dont. They are very strict (Citi Cards). Every minute you are accounted for. If you are 1 min late from break, you get in trouble. So if I COULD withut losing my job take off, I would. Ive taken off before but Ive used my time.

I found one farrier but would have to wait until the 13th, thats another 2 weeks for her to be like this. So the search continues. I just didnt imagine to have this much trouble.

Lookout

Jun. 5, 2006, 12:32 AM

KTBM you are a good horse mommy. No one is saying you're not. And if you could get a farrier out in less than two weeks then you might have to wonder how good he is.

LMH

Jun. 5, 2006, 07:00 AM

Did you ever contact Steve Dick?

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 5, 2006, 11:42 PM

LATEST UPDATE~!

Yes. I contacted Steve. He emailed me and told me to call him. Ive left like 3 messages with him and have had no return calls.

But I have good news!!

At work, we have whats called VTO (voluntary time off) that you can sign up for and if we arent busy, you can leave, but you dont get paid. If you sign up a few weeks in advance, sometimes you can get it for a day in the future. Well I was approved for tomorrow until 8pm. So I dont have PAID time off, but I have time off, regardless, so a farrier who I had spoken to but I could only meet in the afternoon, is going to come tomorrow afternoon!!!! YAYYYYY. I am SO relieved.

He does the horses at one of the top barns here (very high level performance and show horses) and was recommended by quite a few professionals. So I will take LOTS of pics (with my DIGI cam, not my cell phone, so CLEAR).

So its looking up! YAY.

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 6, 2006, 04:09 PM

Well, I am back from the barn. The farrier came this afternoon. He came out, watched her walk towards him and away from him, and quickly w/t/c on the lunge. He said she was very unbalanced and her RF heel was way too long as were her toes. He said when he trimmed the heel, it was unstable (side to side, like not solid) so said if it were clubby (as it was looking more up and down in the angles) that the bars and heel would be more solid. When he took all that heel off, WOW. Look. The heels were WAY back where they were supposed to be. I couldnt believe how nice she looked like a proper trim.

The LF is the lower heel and thats the one that had the wedge and he agreed that a wedge pad can encourage the crushing of the heels. He felt the heels were underrun but NOT contracted. He was able to bring them back as well. When he was done, the hooves looked much better and similar, though he said that they will never be exactly alike, which is common. Her LF is, oh boy he used some big words that basically he said meant that it turned sightly to the inside, and for the most part, it could be corrected, but it wont ever be exactly perfect. He put bigger shoes (like so that she had the support all the way back, a VERY small trailer b/c he didnt want her to tear them off) and TWO nails on each side! Ive never seen that little. He said 2 good, strong nails will hold just as good as 5 or 6. There was no reason for that many nails.

Her hind feet were similar, just not as bad. But he was able to bring the heels back and everything. It was crazy to see her feet, esp the front, which were more noticable. Her RF (as its not as flat as the LF) looks like a "real" hoof. I was so happy.

Sometimes the mare would get really nervous with the farrier (poop a lot and bob her head and wiggle a little bit) but she stood perfectly still, pooped once, and had her head hanging and was licking and chewing and had floppy ears. She was very relaxed and the more he worked on her, the more and more she relaxed. She def looked more comfortable after the work was done.

I didnt get pics, as I have my digi and I cant hold the fot and take good pics. But Im going back out there to see how she moves (he said she shouldnt get TOO sore b/c we are actually putting her back to where she needs to be and she was sore b/c she was incorrect and Ill really notice a big difference with this first times work and subtle differences as we continue. And he agreed 4 wks at the longest).

He was a little more expensive than I had been used to. But he does all the big named show barns in the area, even Don Stewarts in Ocala. It was $150 for her shoes (aluminums) and the trim in the back. Honestly, I was expecting more, and had paid more to the previous farrier (insert shock face here :eek:). He has an apprentice working with him, a younger guy, who is nice too. He pulled the shoes and watched him work, had to grind the shoes a little bit, and also did the trim job on my friends gelding (who impressed them with his size, lol).

All and all, Im very happy so far, and the guy took the time to explain everything and why and had me look at the feet and everything. Really nice nice guy!! And I have a message in with the massage therapist. Farrier agreed shes a tight horse, esp behind, and that the massage therapist will do a good job with her (she recommend the farrier) and that will help as well.

So Ill post pics as soon as I can. With me living in the hotel, Ill have to try to sort through my stuff and find my cable that connects the pics to the computer.

:D

didgery

Jun. 6, 2006, 05:14 PM

Thanks for the update! Sounds like a great experience. Glad you're back on track with those feet.

Buxton Farrier

Jun. 7, 2006, 12:00 AM

Hi Krazy
sounds like this guy did a great job and I'm glad your horse is moving much better. Sorry you have had such bad luck with poor farriers and horrible shoeing. I can't wait to see the pictures so we can slam this guy too.:lol:
I can't believe he charged you $150. I would have done it for only $149.

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 7, 2006, 12:04 AM

Thanks guys. I hopped on for like 10 mins to see if there was a difference. Was there! I had one hand on the buckle the whole ride. She was stretching down and pretending to be a little hunter horse and taking big long slow steps, ears pricked, just as relaxed and happy as can be. I was SO happy to have my horse back!! I cantered for like 2 circles around the big oak tree in the back pasture, and she was so relaxed and comfy. My friend who I was riding with said she looked so relaxed. YAY.

Of course I cant find my cable to hook up my camera to the computer, so I hooked it up to the TV (of course I can find THAT cable) and took pics with ym cell phone so I could email them to myself. Ill try to post them a little later. Its not perfect, but it works. He said the LF will take a little longer to get back and looking better than the RF.

I have $149.. Can I get $148?? LOL ;) :lol:

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 7, 2006, 12:45 AM

Ok so they arent picture perfect clear, but you can get an idea. Until I move out of this damn hotel and into our new house, I doubt I will be able to find the cable for my camera-to-computer. So these will have to do.

Standing.. she moved right as I took this, but she def looks more comfy.. and I cant help but be proud of her weight and muscle seeing as she was NOTHING like this when I got her. lol
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0607060011.jpg

LF - her "pancake" foot. This one needs more work, but its def better than it was. He said this was her "oddball" foot as its def a unique shape. Its also the one that has that big fancy term that means its rotated to the inside (like the frog points to the inside, etc) but hes going to work to fix that over time.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0607060012.jpg

Solar of the LF - Again, her *special* foot but he had me look at the foot before he put the shoe on. The heels were way back at the widest part of the frog and had that nice shape to them, like a point.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0607060013.jpg

RF - The one that looked almost clubby but its not. This is her "best" foot as it looks the most "normal" to me. And again, the heels were brought way back and she just looked so comfy after he took all that heel off.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0607060012a.jpg

Solar of the RF, again the heels are back under the shoe.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0607060013a.jpg

Im pretty SURE this is her LH but dont quote me... I forgot after I went to work which one I took a pic of first. But again, the heels were brought back and hes working on the shape.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0607060012c.jpg

And her RH I believe. It seems her right side is the more "correct" side in terms of everything at least right now. I can see the angle from pastern down is straight down following the bone and all. Could that have something to do with her being a race horse and always tracking left while doing that? Her LF is the foot that she puts forward to bear her weight on while grazing, which I know can effect that too.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/Layla%20Feet%205%2024%2006/0607060012b.jpg

So there ya go. I think he did a really good job and we are going to see how she grows out and have her redone in 4 wks. He wants to see how her hoof grows and reevaluate and see if he needs to change anything (as far as how hes attacking the different problems).

So appologies for the crappy photo quality but thats the best I can do now with all my things God knows where with this move. :)

ChocoMare

Jun. 7, 2006, 06:12 AM

WOOOOO HOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Much, much better :yes:

Oh that mare must have wanted to kiss you and the farrier :D

cosmos mom

Jun. 7, 2006, 06:40 AM

So SO SO much better! I'm sure your issures will be on the mend now- just remember, as far as horses are concerned, Platform Shoes? Bad 70's fashon, also bad for horses :D

draft_farrier

Jun. 7, 2006, 10:21 AM

Congrats !!!! It appears you got a GOOD farrier who made a horse go right..shod.....who'd have thought that was possible in this day and age?

I congratulate you on your success and commend you on your tenacious pursuit of getting your horse comfortable....I wish all MY clients were more like you.

JOB WELL DONE, MA'AM !!

onthebit

Jun. 7, 2006, 10:29 AM

Wow, nice changes already! What a relief for you.

Tree

Jun. 7, 2006, 10:36 AM

Not contracted, huh. Well, maybe he's used to seeing so much contraction that these feet don't look contracted to him.

Still, I will look forward to seeing updated pics as you go to see if the bulbs continue to look a little less "outboard" of the heels in the lateral views. It's a form of contraction where the bulbs are shoved out back and towards each other.

I'm so glad you found this farrier as opposed to the one you had previously. I can be happy to see fewer nails in the hooves and hooves being shaped to come BACK underneath the boney column. Now it's just a matter of time to see how his set-up changes the feet.

In the odd-ball hoof sole view one bulb is shoved more than the other. I hope future pics will show the bulbs evening out. I'd suspect an uneven heel existed before and hopefully this new farrier caught it and trimmed accordingly.

Tree

Jun. 7, 2006, 11:23 AM

Yes, please, do take regular pictures as this new farrier continues to work on your girl :)

ThirdCharm

Jun. 7, 2006, 12:09 PM

$150 for aluminum fronts in Florida probably isn't TOO bad....

Looks much better already. My hubby routinely uses only 4 nails on my horses, much better for the feet.....

Jennifer

KrazyTBMare

Jun. 8, 2006, 12:03 AM

Thanks guys. You have no idea what a relief it is to cross this off the list of "STRESSFUL THINGS" and to SEE the comfort in her. Tonight when I went out after work to get her (10:30pm), I went out and whistled, and she came as she always does, but this time GALLOPING to the gate. *squishy face here* I had her trot and canter around on the lunge for like 3 mins to evaluate how she was moving. I dont know.. the trot seems more.. clear and 2 beat. Like that nice even thud you hear when they trot or canter along.. the most wonderful sound in the world? I hear it again! and her ears are pricked and she looks like a hunter! And for my tense tb to be hacking aorund like a relaxed little hunter - thats GREAT!

Just waiting to get a call back from the massage therapist.

And yeh, honestly, I think maybe b/c Im younger (22) and right now am boarding at just a basic, but nice ans safe, boarding facility, he thought I would have sticker shock with the $150. Ive paid more for less and when he said that he was on the pricey side, I was expecting $200++ so yeh I can handle that with a new set. Of course the mares comfort is priceless! :)

Ill have to get riding pics and show the difference! Its just so great! Thanks SO much for everyones help and advice. It really helped out and the mare is VERY grateful and wants to give everyone a big KISS! http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f53/krazytbmare/000_2095a.jpg

:D