Young FreisianX in training.... concerns

[TBsRgr8]

I was talking to my twin bro. on the phone this evening and somethings he said about their 3 y.o. they went to visit at the "trainer's" today kinda' bothered me. Merlin is in training for driving with an Amish family and so, when they showed up to visit him, there wasn't anyone on the farm (I forget the technical term but basically it's "visiting day"). They waited a little while and then they saw a big black horse running up to the farm with the boys (I'm assuming these would be the Amish farmer's sons) driving and he was covered in sweat from head to toe... there was even sweat dripping down the horse's hooves. My brother also mentioned that the farmer's sons have been riding the horse all over the place. I don't have a driving background but have some major concerns over this.

Is there any excusable reason, other than a 90+ degree, super-humid day(I don't know what the high near Ft. Leavenworth, KS was today), for a 3 y.o. to come back from a drive (the horse is out for 30-60 days) dripping in sweat?

Was it inappropriate for them to take the horse off the farm on a social day vs. a work day?

If the farmer was contracted to train the horse, WTF were his kids (I'm assuming teenagers, I know they probably have been doing this for years...) doing driving the horse?

The horse is there for driving training, do the boys have any business climbing aboard and riding the horse? I know my brother has walked him around the ring for a few minutes on occasion under saddle just to begin getting him used to being ridden.

To me, it sounds like the farmer's family is taking advantage of the free use of a willing horse who picks things up very quickly. I guess there was the advantage that my sis-in-law had been long lining him and doing tons of ground work and he had had a bridle and saddle on, so there really wasn't that much to get him used to in terms of new equipment going on his body. Still! I think I would have been burning rubber home to get the trailer and remove my horse post haste when I saw him comming "home" covered in sweat like that unless there was a d***ed good reason he arrived back at the farm in that condition. We won't go into what I think of them for telling my sis-in-law to go ahead and drive across the water (turned out to be a flash flood; sis not familiar with area to know what water level to use as a comparison for safe crossing and no signs/ water markers) a week and a half ago (Trail Blazer was totalled after being swept off the bridge with no guard rail or sides of any kind, 5 month pregnant sis-in-law got knocked off the top of the vehicle where she planned on being handed niece by a branch and had to swim to safety, adult passenger had to swim to safety after retrieving my 16 month old niece from her carseat... no humans were harmed in this incident, TG), "we do it all the time".:eek: :eek: :eek:

I'll save figuring out how to tactfully bring up my concerns to my sibling/ sibling-in-law for after I have gotten a few responses and cooled off a little bit. I was a bit speechless when my brother was telling me about this (and his cell phone was cutting in and out some too).

[MuleLady]

The Amish don't baby horses. Based on what I know, this doesn't sound at all unusual in terms of the way they train horses or mules. I bet that horse will be able to plow a field when he comes home, too. He'll probably be a lot more broke and better behaved than other 3 yr old harness horses, too.

[TBsRgr8]

Maybe I'm a bit paranoid because of the diagnostic, treatment, and management H-E-double-hockey sticks I went through with my TB gelding who developed pedal osteoitis. His was a result of poor farrier work prior to my purchasing him but I know it's a condition that's more common of an injury in carriage horses that are pounding the pavement too hard/ much. The same horse also has a history of tying-up, though his seems to be more weather related than work related.

[friesian4me]

Yes, it would concern me Alot! A 3yo should not be ridden/driven that hard. Friesians mature late and I would worry about excess stress on their joints. Follow your instinct. If you have a bad feeling go with it and go pick him up.

[goodhors]

I would also be taking young horse home. At three, he is too young, mentally and physically, to be working himself into a sweat. On such large horses, his bones are not done being built, no matter how willingly he is doing jobs requested.

Fresians have some other breed concerns that we have seen over the years. First is color. Black really absorbs the sunshine, helps overheat the horse doing active work in driving. With slender body build, not hugely deep chested, Fresians have smaller lungs that do not function as well to cool large horse body in work. A couple articles from past driving magazines mentioned this as a concern for CDE and distance driving competitions.

Fresians are known to overheat easily in warm weather with high humidity. They can need prompt attention to be cooled properly, down to the body core, so they don't overheat AGAIN when put away. We did see that happen at a CDE, horses were back up to 102F+ an hour after being hosed, temps checked by vet, put back in stalls. Outside temp was 85F with humidity almost 90.
The people driving them were watching them in stalls, so caught the problem quickly, but it is a BREED PROBLEM in the WRONG weather or work setup. They can invert temp and respiration really fast. Not self-cooling like other breeds. These were hugely expensive horses, had been in a good conditioning program, driven conservatively. Owners gave up CDE, went to Pleasure driving activities.

Not seeing the horse and training stystem in action, this might be a one time thing. HOWEVER, this is not what I would want my young, willing horse to be doing AT ALL!

There are good and poor Amish horse trainers. Just like anyone, the lifestyle they live does not insure the people are GOOD horse trainers. They use what they have learned, good or poor. My friend sent her Paint gelding to an Amish man for driving training. She had NO problem with Paint being driven 20+ miles a day as a 3yr old. Her family has had horses for years, Grampa used his horses the same way. Horse has to do what user requires. She thought the Amish man did a good job with her horse, much easier on him than other local Amish trainers.

Terrific write-up in Driving Digest a couple issues back about an extended Amish family who breed, train, sell driving horses. Train all breeds, have devoted, repeat customers, make sure horse you buy suits you. Sound like the horse dealers we all wish we had!! Their trainees compete in all kinds of driving, Pleasure, Shows, CDE, very willing, nice driving horses.

I would say the Amish man and family who have young horse are not doing training, as I would want it done. Possibly overusing the young horse. This would be where Amish get a poor name in horse training practices. Doesn't sound like your brother or SIL really know what horse should be doing, expectations of correct steps to driving training. Amish get used often because they are inexpensive. However you can't line up horse trainers, fees charged, then expect the resulting horses to all come out exactly the same, though training steps all have the same names!! Not like buying a physical product, bread or shoes.

I would be bringing this horse home, giving him some time off, hope he forgot bad parts of what he learned. Then I would be educating myself about driving light horses, a carriage horse prospect, with some clinics, local driving clubs, take lessons from Carriage driver, on what a young driving horse should be doing. I doubt this was an inexpensive horse, don't cheap out on training and longer time needed to produce a GOOD, riding and driving horse.
We don't even think of hitching young horses until late 4yr old. Too much stress on the big bones and soft joints of our horses. I would be riding him a little at early 4 if possible, getting responsive to bit signals and legs of rider at this time. Showing horse things along the road at a walk, slow trot. Extra time now won't be any big deal in the long use ahead of him.

[philosoraptor]

I would consider it free extra training if they're teaching the driving horse to ride or to drive in traffic (free bombproofing).... no harm in that. No harm either in letting the amish teens work with the horse. It's been my experience most amish teens are *nothing* like the average American teen; they're not spoiled brats who have no clue how to handle a horse. They know very well how to drive... heck, they were probably out plowing the family's fields with horses when they were just big kids.

However, at 3 I wouldn't put a horse (especially a bigger horse) into hard training.... but that was a mistake the owner did, not the amish trainer. The trainer is just doing what he was hired to do -- train.

[Ashemont]

Admittedly I'm new to driving but NOT new to horse training. This just sounds like too much for a 3 year old - especially a late-maturing breed like a Freisian. This young guy might be very willing right now but too much heavy work could sour him very quickly! I'd definitely get him out of the situation fast.

OTOH I would not be upset if the horse had some under-saddle training in addition to the driving. As long as it was done correctly and the horse wasn't hurt it's only an added benefit. But before I became too critical of the trainer I'd want to know just exactly what the training agreement was. Perhaps you brother told them to go ahead and use the horse? Could simply be a miscommunication in what was expected.

Let us know what happens.

[candico]

Can someone point me in the right direction for the articles that discuss the Friesian's smaller lung capacity and heat intolerance, etc.?

TIA

[TBsRgr8]

Admittedly I'm new to driving but NOT new to horse training. This just sounds like too much for a 3 year old - especially a late-maturing breed like a Freisian. This young guy might be very willing right now but too much heavy work could sour him very quickly! I'd definitely get him out of the situation fast.

OTOH I would not be upset if the horse had some under-saddle training in addition to the driving. As long as it was done correctly and the horse wasn't hurt it's only an added benefit. But before I became too critical of the trainer I'd want to know just exactly what the training agreement was. Perhaps you brother told them to go ahead and use the horse? Could simply be a miscommunication in what was expected.

Let us know what happens.

My understanding of the situation is sis-in-law is pregnant with off-spring # 4, twin bro. is going to be travelling quite a bit for his job (active-duty Army) over the next few months, off-spring #s 1,2,and 3 are aged 9 years, 6 years, and 16 months. Already a scheduling nightmare without any of the 4-leggeds added into the mix. They figured since sis-in-law's belly would be growing adding more challenge to the scheduling and stamina issues, a logical step would be to go ahead and send him to driving trainer for a few months to continue young horse's early ground training and get the basics for driving. Horse is supposed to be sis-in-law's dressage horse, eventually, and the driving is sort of a dabbling thing that would be a nice additional skill set for him to have. (I'm not sure how clearly this was communicated to the trainer; sisters gabbing on the phone for an hour seem to be better at pulling more information out) I am 99.9% certain that sis-in-law would not want anyone riding the horse. Even bro has been "lucky" to get on him and that's mainly because of his financial support of the horse habbit while she is doing so much hands-on mommy time. My understanding was that the other family was not to be riding the horse at all. I've already put in my DQ concerns about riding a slower-maturing breed youngster AT ALL at his age (my twin bro. isn't a small boy at 6'+ and 215 lbs.). I have expressed multiple times that I would have even been nervous getting on the horse at all when I was in peak riding shape at 5'2" and 108 lbs. As if family relationship issues weren't complicated enough, horse issues had to be added to the mix. :rolleyes: I'm just the stupid sister despite having done this horse stuff for several years longer and my 'professional' opinion doesn't count as much on training issues because I wasn't paid for it... even when they were the ones to approach me and ask for my advice.

I think perhaps it's time for a phone call tomorrow while the older kids are at school and the toddler is napping when I can talk to sis-in-law directly. I tend to be able to get more details out of her than my brother. I'm not sure how much influence I'll have over the situation. I've been holding back over this one because there have been other things that have played out in the past that I said x, y, and z are going to happen and they did their own thing. Funny thing is that x, y, and z did happen exactly the way I said they would, they just had to learn it for themselves the hard way. I've been trying to butt out of horse-related stuff but this one really concerns me in all aspects of this young horse's bright future. I don't want to see them end up with a horse in his teens with the kinds of issues like the one they've been pushing me to get rid of "because you can't do what you want to do with him and he's basically useless to you". Then again, they may better understand my position of being committed to providing a good retirement for a horse that I learned many lessons from, even if they weren't the original path I planned on taking with the horse (but how many really do end up exactly where you planned on going with just a few minor speed bumps along the way?). That's not a lesson I would like to see be learned by another horse being ruined because of ignorant/ abusive training practices used in their youth.

[Ashemont]

Gee... if someone had bought me a nice Freisian that I hoped to do dressage on and I was in SIL position I would've just done some longeline basics with him and then turned him out until I was no longer pregnant and could work him myself. As I understand it driving is not the best way to start a dressage horse. Ground driving, yes; working the horse the way this one seems to be doing, no. Not the same type of development. I might be new to driving but I've taken two stallions up the levels and have started innumerable young horses so I do know a little bit about the dressage side of things ;)

I sure hope no damage has been done and that your SIL will realize her dream of having a lovely dressage mount.

[TBsRgr8]

Yeah, after a 5 year riding hiatus because of an injury sustained starting a youngster, I'd be happy to just plain be healthy enough to putz around on my green(-ish) 16 y.o. mare at Training Level more than a few times a year. Having a horse that I could realistically develop and start chipping away at my USDF Bronze Medal and a husband who is willing to help financially support that track would totally blow my mind. I'd guard the horse and the dream with my life.

I don't think the driving training thing was really thought through past it might be a fun, different kind of thing to do and doubt that it would ever really be used past the occasional hacking around (or possible selling point if they ever did decide to sell). The purchase of a weanling 4 summers ago for "fun to watch growing up" proved to be quite a reality check.... she didn't believe me that they go through some really obnoxious phases and don't become really "civilized", like her teenaged gelding, until they're at least 7. She's heard, "Yup, that's pretty normal for a colt that age" many times when she has thought she had an unusually difficult baby on her hands. I've tried to be the voice of reason to look beyond the short-term in the past but it hasn't been terribly successful and they are adults spending their own $$ and time so, I can't really "force" them to do anything. Sometimes a 1/2 to a full country of geographical separation is a good thing.:yes:

[49'er]

Have you considered just dropping the issue? I only mention this because 1) you are family, 2) you have not been listened to before, 3) you will probably not be listened to again, and 4) you are a great distance away. The biggest issue is family.....do you want to create more negative feelings? I feel you are making yourself sick over something you probably have no control over. JMOT

[kearleydk]

good idea 49er

[Evalee Hunter]

Well, I think your twin brother & his wife made some not-very-effective choices for the horse - driving before dressage, hard training at 3, etc. However, I agree with those that said the Amish family is doing what they were asked to do. We live in a heavily Amish area. If you read the ads in the local paper, you will see horses are classed as "boy's horse" or "family horse". Horses are trained & given road miles almost exclusively by the teenage boys, not by an adult man driving his family around. The Amish work hard themselves & they expect their animals to work hard as well. An Amish horse being sweated up in that manner is pretty much par for the course. I have heard local driving people say, "never buy a horse from the Amish", "never have the Amish train your horse", etc. & then these same driving people send their horses off to an Amish trainer to get those road miles, that bombproofing.

This may not look good to you but I honestly believe the family is doing exactly what they think your brother & his wife want done - training & miles. Those ads I mentioned in the previous paragraph often say "ready for road miles".

[TBsRgr8]

I'm just going to pretend it's the pregnancy hormones giving her a major case of the stupids. My twin bro. really doesn't have the experience or reading background to know any better. I still woulda' been pissed at arriving at the farm and realizing the boys had been out joy riding with my young horse (and sis-in-law said that they looked like they knew they shouldn't have been out with the horse and dad didn't know about it). She also won't get a sympathetic ear when the horse breaks down before she can get her USDF Bronze Medal on him.

[carp]

I can't recall ever seeing an Amishman riding a horse in a dressage competition, so I can't imagine why you'd send your dressage prospect off to the Amish for training. It's not exactly their niche. You send a horse off to a working farm to get trained, it's probably going to come back trained like a working farm horse.

[TBsRgr8]

The horse wasn't sent for dressage training, he was sent to learn to drive.

[carp]

Ah, well it sounds like he's being taught to be a farm horse, with driving as a byproduct.

[Thomas_1]

I personally wouldn't be leaping to massive conclusions on the basis of what has been posted here.

I'm taking that its a 3 year old fresian being put to harness. Nothing wrong with that at all

It being ridden by kids. I presume if they are kids they aren't exactly going to be heavyweights and that isn't going to do it any harm. The OP said the brother had been on the horse - so kids riding him won't be an issue at all

Ridden at all. Well you can teach a driving horse a heck of a lot under saddle and I wouldn't be concerned about a driving horse being ridden. Even if its intended to be some top level dressage horse in the future - which incidentally a fresian would in all likely hood not be.

Driving is not the best way to start a dressage horse - mmm well I've had blooming loads started as drivers and done blooming well at dressage!

Taking the horse and driving/riding all over the place. I've got a horse here now that has come to me for remedial training because all the first person did was drive it round a schooling area and enclosed field and its owner can't manage it as its not done enough. And I get on average a dozen or so like that a year.

Coming in covered in sweat - I've got 3 profuse sweaters - they're fit and sweat no matter what the weather is like and no matter how far they go out. You guys in the USA might not have heard of Benny the Dip - alias "Benny the Drip" because of his profuse sweating - that won the Epsom Derby and whose offspring average selling price in 1999/2000 was £98,000 and 56 of those offspring won over $33,000,000 and all were profuse sweaters.

[goodhors]

Thomas, you may not understand what we are talking about when we discuss Amish trainers. Amish folks are a religious group, which has many subsections, and usually don't believe in using gas powered machinery. Hence the mixed knowledge Amish have in horse usages. They don't believe in cars, use of tractors or electricity from the power company. Each group has general rules and local rules about how segregated they are from the modern world.

Maybe picturing farm families from old western movies would give you a better picture of how they use horses. Horses work hard for these folks. A twenty mile daily drive is nothing uncommon, in all weathers. Horse goes, age or training level is not really a consideration. 3yr old WILL do the same job as the 12-15yr old, fit Standardbreds.

Kids riding are not schooling horse as you seem to commonly expect from your remarks. These kids learn by actually riding, not alway in a correct manner, certainly Amish kids don't get riding lessons!
They are much more likely to have hopped on, bareback or saddled, and taken off cross-country thru the farm fields. Usually at a canter, to get to the fun part of excursion faster. Might be a short jaunt, maybe canter a couple miles, both ways. The kids often race their horses, part of the fun. Weight is not the factor we were concerned about. Bridles are bitted with whatever was used on the last horse. Nothing special for a young horse. More likely a ring snaffle, or twisted or double twisted, wire snaffle. Very popular bits since Amish have to be able to stop what you ride or drive. Stopping and steering are much bigger concern than lightness or response to the reins. Pull harder if horse ignores you.

As stated, none of this will probably kill or maim the horse. Just a really poor start for a willing, large young animal. Lots of unlearning he will have to go thru that should never been taught. Mileage on young bones he should not have.

Maybe we can all check back here in about 3 years, see how horse has developed in his work from this start. There are good and poor Amish trainers. They just don't use horses like we do, their end result wanted is seldom the same result I would want.

[Thomas_1]

I do know what Amish is and indeed I spent a very enjoyable time in a Mennonite community near Waterloo, Canada. Whilst there I spent time watching and videoing an elderly man working with a young light harness horse - quite simply it was a rising 4 year old entire t/b x standard bred and he was gathering cattle with it put to a light 2 wheel trap.

I would not hestitate to send any of my horses to him - he was actually schooling to a high level - but in a practical no fuss sort of way - the horse was backing in the carriage - moving over by half-passing etc etc. The driver had light hands and to be honest was probably the best driver I've personally seen on the American continent!

In the town there was a supermarket with places marked out for horses and carriages and the horses were all well trained - they stood quietly and were clearly biddable but yet forward going and attentive when driven. I'd have no problem with any of the ladies I saw driving one of my horses. They drove lightly and used their voice and hands showing distinct understanding of the horses they were driving.

The bits I saw used were Liverpool driving bits, buxton bits and the riding bits were eggbut and loose ring snaffles. And I ALWAYS notice bits!

Oh and by the way I bought a very nice made to measure driving bridle from an Amish harness maker.

I also saw heavy horses working in the fields - one farm was ploughing and all the neighbours had brought their horses to help and there were 8 pairs working the field - predominently begian draft and sort of shire cross but even a pair of suffolk punch. And I know for certain that the bits were clean and not covered in rubbish. How many owner riders/drivers do you know that honestly truthfully wash the bit EVERY time they take it out of the horse's mouth?

I hasten to add that on my trips to Canada and America I'm never failed to be horrified at some of the bits used over there and when in Oregon I virtually had arguments with 2 dressage trainers about their use of bits.

And as for pulling on the reins - well don't get me going on that one - because I've never yet seen a carriage driver in America that doesn't drive two handed and heavy handed and I'm yet to discover someone who truly understands that the whole point of driving is you give with one rein whilst you take with the other! And so far I've never yet seen a two handed driver do that!

I see absolutely NOTHING wrong at all with kids racing horses for fun nor riding bareback and whilst of course its NOT schooling a horse it actually does the horse good. Too many nowadays back a horse and do nothing other than ride it round in circles in a small arena - and I'm definitely against that for a youngster!

You talk about unlearning and not proper schooling - well I'd say that 95% of horses are never PROPERLY backed or put to harness or brought on. The vast majority are what we call rough-backed, done by amatures - often learning with the horse, often doing their own horse. Furthermore many so-called trainers do not have nationally recognised qualifications, have never actually done anything particularly proven high level with their horses and are just youngsters with limited knowledge and competence.

In the UK we have an ethnic minority Romany community - who use horses as modes of transport, for haulage and for pleasure. A heck of a lot of them are exceptional horsemen and excellent horse trainers. They are continuing to pass what is a dying skill down through their generations and they are continuing to use that skill.

Regrettably though all too frequently they face prejudice and stereo-typical views and opinions from those whose knowledge is often somewhat limited and who think that the world of horses should be somewhat fancier and more elite.

They just don't use horses like we do, their end result wanted is seldom the same result I would want.

I see the Mennonite (of which Amish is merely a branch) as being in the same category.

[TBsRgr8]

Youngster is back at his regular barn, bro. picked him up last weekend. Suposedly pretty much the schedule they had planned. Sis-in-law said they bought a harness off of eBay when I last talked to her. I think I'm gonna' stick with letting Mom field the phone calls and only talk to the kids (unless it's finding out what things oldest niece is in need of for herself or pony for Christmas and B-days). Perhaps my brother's "more luck than sense" history will hold and all will be well.... Otherwise, I guess we'll just watch this trainwreck unfold.

[Lazydacres Farm]

The fact that they bought the harness off of Ebay concerns me more than the amish farmer and his kids teaching him to drive! The leather is mostly cheap, and weak, and can literally fall apart while you are driving, when you need it most. (Don't ask me how I know this!)

I am moving to the heart of Lancaster County and I have lots of friends down there, and see amish horses more than I see cars on my street. (food locker is right next door, they don't have fridges, all the wives come to get the evening meal out of the locker, I see LOTS of horses)

I think that an amish started horse, is a godsend. It has learned what it means to WORK, and not fuss around, rear, back up like an idiot, paw when asked to whoa, and boy oh boy, a horse that can patiently stand tied!

I love my amish started ponies and horses. That being said, I do like to buy them younger, as they haven't been on the road long enough to really damage their legs. An older horse WILL have leg work, as we call it.

I have seen amish kids riding. It is a laugh, but they sure do know how to balance. I could never ride a horse bareback like they do! They don't have a clue what heels down is, though! The boys like to canter and race, but I really dont think those boys would have "ruined" this horse for a future in dressage to be honest. The biggest problem is that they will have driven him in an overcheck and that is going to be the biggest hurdle to overcome while driving or riding, if your sis in law doesn't use one.

The horses I get in, are very used to a tight overcheck and really "stargaze" . I love it when I take the check off, their heads go up , go down, go up , down, and then eventually (20 minutes to 2 days) they figure out that they are no longer tied to their tails and can carry themselves in a frame.

I think that this young horse, is probably pretty bombproof about cars, trucks, noisy carriages (ever driven a horse that is used to a bike tire jog cart, for the first time in a real cart that rattles??? An amish horse is used to that already, and usually the metal rimmed tires, even MORE noise)

Now, we "english" conventionally start a horse a little sooner, but if you notice, most old timers will say a horse needs a wet saddle blanket to really train it. Meaning, ride that critter till it is TIRED, then let it think on it a while. If he is stupid next time he gets ridden, well, same thing, a good sweaty tired horse will do the trick.

Same thing with the driving horses. IF a young horse starts to act really skitzy or stupid starting out, you can be after a 6 mile drive in the hills of amish country, he will for sure be less stupid when he gets back.

Contrary to what I have heard here, I have never seen an amish man take a "fresh" horse (one right out of the show ring or a youngster) on a 20 mile trip, until they are built up to it. As I do livestock hauling down in PA, I can tell you, I go to pick up quite a few "broke down horses" and their carriages in the summer time. These aren't youngsters, often they are draft crosses that don't cool down as well, or older horses that have tied up. An amish man doesn't want to be broke down with a family in the buggy, they sure do try to take a horse that is "tough" to ensure that they don't have to!

When we go to the sales, the horses are sold as right off the track (literally taken off the track, still in racing plates), Fresh (usually off the track a week or so, or long enough to have race plates pulled and be in "road shoes" and started in a regular two wheel cart, instead of a race bike) , In the spring wagon (next step from cart), Started in the carriage, or Ready for Miles ( a horse that has been consistently driving 12-15 miles, is toughened up on the shoulders for a collar, and has been pulling the enclosed heavy carriages.

What you DON"T want to buy, is a horse that "Needs Miles" (in other words, a screwball that will take 4 people to hitch it and might calm down after about 15 miles or a "Boy's Horse" (a little less of a screw, but likely a VERY hot individual)

[TBsRgr8]

I was kind of surprised to hear she had bought the harness off of eBay also for the exact same reasoning. She has boatloads of family (her mother's side is of Menonite heritage, though not all still "practice" including her mother who married a career Army man) that lives in Springs, PA and sis-in-law knows of a really good leather guy back "home" who charges reasonable rates for quality workmanship. I had pretty much assumed that she would have ordered a harness from there esp. since they are very good about giving instructions on how to measure for custom items and will do additional consults over the phone until you feel confident you have it right. If the $$ was a concern, I would much prefer to wait until I had saved enough to buy the better tack. She's already had one majorly scary incident during this pregnancy and we don't need another. I think she's letting her desire to do "something horsey" besides grooming and ground work while she's pregnant override her thoughts toward safety.

[Curley07]

Please don't take this offensively as that is not the spirit in which it is meant, but it seems that in your eyes your sister/brother can do no right. I know it is out of concern for them, but probably biting your toungue and saving the advice for a real serious situation would be best, and might actually have a chance of being heard. In the sake of family relations, I agree that stepping aside is called for. You have your horses to enjoy to get the horse fix, and your nieces etc to get your kid fix. Play it cool to keep it that way.

If her family has a mennonite heritage, that is probably one of the reasons they sent it there. Not all amish trainers are equal, and a good one provides one of the best educations I think you can give to a young horse. Most horses aren't contenders for the Olympics, but there will always a big demand for a sensible, well mannered and exposed horse ... pretty to boot is just icing on the cake, basically an insurance policy for the horse in the future should his career aspirations run short.

Tom: We live near the waterloo region. I agree with most that you have posted. We have had some well-broke amish trained horses and they are a pleasure to have around.

LazyDacres: I am afraid I have also bought one of those "needs miles" horses ;) . He was sold to me as not broke or touched ... certainly not the case, pulled the shoe nails out of his foot to prove it. The "not so good amish trainer" had abviously had a go at this guy and made quite a mess of it. I have had him now for a few years, it takes quite a commitment (from the horse and me) to overcome alot of the baggage that he came with, we're still not there yet (my own time constraints) and probably never will reach his potential because of deeply ingrained trust issues.

[TBsRgr8]

I had a reply typed out but you obviously only read the replies posted by other posters so I'm not going to continue to waste my breath on a dead issue.

[Trakehner]

They blew a lot of money on a Friesian and are going cheap everywhere else? This is very odd.

You don't want to come back reincarnated as an Amish owned horse. They use and abuse them, especially the carriage horses. Just take a look at these poor animals at a market on shopping day. Miserable heaving horses, poor care, sores under the harness and not clean....and please, no whining about how they "work horses for real" etc. they're abusive to their horses. They're also some of the worst "puppy mill" producers of miserably bred dogs.

Friesians are slow maturing horses (as are all draft horses...even though they're minimal drafters). They really need to get a decent harness and good training with a sensible and knowledgeable trainer.

Sounds like they're the type who buy an expensive car and never change the oil.

[Thomas_1]

You don't want to come back reincarnated as an Amish owned horse. They use and abuse them, especially the carriage horses. Just take a look at these poor animals at a market on shopping day. Miserable heaving horses, poor care, sores under the harness and not clean....and please, no whining about how they "work horses for real" etc. they're abusive to their horses. They're also some of the worst "puppy mill" producers of miserably bred dogs.

.

What a prejudicial stereotype! I once looked after a horse for the International League of Protection to Horses whilst it was awaiting for its owner to be prosecuted for cruelty and abuse. The owner was a priest. Does that mean all christians abuse their horses :confused:

[TBsRgr8]

They blew a lot of money on a Friesian and are going cheap everywhere else? This is very odd.

It's true to form for sis-in-law's decision making processes; and not only horse issues. She asked me to critique the video of the critter from when he was still at his mother's side and had a little bit of footage of the sire. Other than a little tiny snippet of where the dam trotted, a v. nice trot that was a bit unexpected for a Pinto/ Paint, I told her that the only thing I could tell her for sure from the footage presented was the color of the horses. The sale video was not well done. I also told her of some of the concerns about the breed for the goals that she had stated at the time. I also asked if she honestly thought that she would have enough time for another horse (she frequently had issues with getting in horse time because of my bro. being gone so much, 2 young children, and not wanting to hire more babysitting) at that point in their lives with the two young children and talk of possibly expanding the family by one or two more. I only brought it up once and dropped it.

[silvia]

TBs, you seriously need to butt out of your sister's life. It's not up to you what she does. She has every right to make her own choices without you there telling her what she is doing wrong IYO.

[Mels]

You don't want to come back reincarnated as an Amish owned horse. They use and abuse them, especially the carriage horses. Just take a look at these poor animals at a market on shopping day. Miserable heaving horses, poor care, sores under the harness and not clean....and please, no whining about how they "work horses for real" etc. they're abusive to their horses.
How many Amish horses have you seen like this? Like was stated earlier, there are good Amish trainers and bad ones. Don't sterotype the whole group based on what you might have seen once or twice. The Amish depend on their animals to not only get them around, but for the trainers the horses are their way of life. Just because they make them work and don't take any crap off the horses doesn't mean they're abused.

I'd rather drive an Amish trained team that I know is bomb-proof and broke rather than some lightly trained horse who's been coddled and allowed to get away with stuff.

[TBsRgr8]

TBs, you seriously need to butt out of your sister's life. It's not up to you what she does. She has every right to make her own choices without you there telling her what she is doing wrong IYO.

She specifically friggin' asked me to evaluate the video. Honestly, the only conversation I have had with her since the incident was one time to get more information because my brother and I didn't get far enough into the conversation before he either had to go or the cell signal was lost. I let her do most of the talking when I called and I asked about all of the horses and how niece's lessons were going. It had been several months since I had actually talked to her on the phone prior to that. I guess I'm just a total biotch for being concerned about the health/ safety of my unborn nephew and for wanting to stick up for a horse that was put in what sounded like an abusive situation. I've expressed much more on the message board than what I said on the phone. I wanted a chance to sort out my thoughts and feelings before letting my anger take over and telling her off. I bite my tongue alot much of the time when on the phone with them (which does not stop them from trying to tell me how to live my life with a condition neither of them has any experience with). I guess I put higher expectations of taking extra safety precautions when participating in high risk activities on parents of young children so that their kids don't have deal with the death of a parent and have to grow up with out them. How selfish of me.

[MySparrow]

Thanks, Mels, for sticking up for the Amish as horsepeople. Nobody's perfect, and there are certainly Amish as well as English (meaning not-Amish) who do poorly by their horses. But as a community they still depend on their horses in ways that we never will, and they use their horses for tasks that most of us have forgotten even exist. I've seen many a horse and mule spoiled to the point of being dangerous by hobby owners, and then given a new life and a new usefulness by an Amish farmer.

I also learned a lot as a kid watching Mennonite relatives farm with horses and later attending horse auctions where Amish and Mennonite buyers and sellers gathered. I learned early on to watch for the very subtle signals a plain bidder would make, and studied the harness piece or horse they were bidding on, because it was sure to be a good one.

And then there's my own personal little mantra when I lose confidence about my driving: "Uncle Joe (Slaybaugh) did it. I can do it too." Amazing how that cheers me on.

Dale

[silvia]

She specifically friggin' asked me to evaluate the video. Honestly, the only conversation I have had with her since the incident was one time to get more information because my brother and I didn't get far enough into the conversation before he either had to go or the cell signal was lost. I let her do most of the talking when I called and I asked about all of the horses and how niece's lessons were going. It had been several months since I had actually talked to her on the phone prior to that. I guess I'm just a total biotch for being concerned about the health/ safety of my unborn nephew and for wanting to stick up for a horse that was put in what sounded like an abusive situation. I've expressed much more on the message board than what I said on the phone. I wanted a chance to sort out my thoughts and feelings before letting my anger take over and telling her off. I bite my tongue alot much of the time when on the phone with them (which does not stop them from trying to tell me how to live my life with a condition neither of them has any experience with). I guess I put higher expectations of taking extra safety precautions when participating in high risk activities on parents of young children so that their kids don't have deal with the death of a parent and have to grow up with out them. How selfish of me.

In that case I offer my sincere apology. It sounded like you were saying a lot of this to her already. I have three sisters :)

[Thomas_1]

How many Amish horses have you seen like this? Like was stated earlier, there are good Amish trainers and bad ones. Don't sterotype the whole group based on what you might have seen once or twice. .


Glad someone else has posted to this effect. I can't stand prejudicial stereotype no matter who its aimed at. However with regard to horsemanship: generally the Amish community have a much wider and deeper knowledge base and with skills daily utilised and this is not as general amongst the majority of the horse owning population. Indeed I'd say that Amish folks were more likely to have better trained horses, better cared for horses and better access to assistance and advice. Quite simply they are reliant and dependent on their horses for transortation, pleasure and work. I very much doubt you'd get an Amish driver having to resort to asking on a forum (even if they had computers!) how to pretty basic stuff like harness/bit/shoe/feed a horse. Sadly all too many folks nowadays get horses and then set about learning with them through things like forums.

Horsesmanship is a practical, physical skill and not something you can meantingfully learn about other than by practical demonstration and application. In my view you should learn first and then get the horse and the Amish community certainly are blessed with folks who have real practical knowledge of successfully training and working, riding and driving horses . I would lay my money down that most of them will have forgotten more than many 'pet' single horse owners will ever know.

As I posted earlier, the sort of biggotry and prejudice expressed is no different to what we hear over here regarding the Romany community and it has no place on any forum and certainly not on a horse forum where driving training is being discussed.

[Trakehner]

I repeat, you don't want to come back as an Amish owned horse...especially one of their buggy horses.

Their Belgians plow horses are necessary to run the farm, they get decent treatment.

The retired standardbreds they get off the tracks have a bad life. Not just one or two, a lot of them (or to be more accurate, the Maryland and Lancaster/Shippensburg area Amish...both of which I have a lot of experience with).

Look into the American Humane Society and Humane Society websites for stories and commentaries about puppy mills and who are the worst abusers of these sad dogs...it's the Amish, especially the GAP, PA area for some reason (outside Lancaster). The guy who built a carriage for me had a barn with at least 20 wire cages of toy breeds for his wife to earn money with. It's the new "egg money" business.

That someone drives a horse for their daily transportation doesn't mean they know any more about the horse than the average driver knows how to repair the car. There is no magical knowledge they possess, they aren't somehow closer to the earth etc., they're a fairly backwards religious insular sect that is becoming horribly inbred with increasing birth defects due to the shallow gene pool. This isn't bias, it's based on data on their demographic group.

The Amish are not some version, as in the movie "Witness," of quaint people who are so colorful and cute. Ask a Brit or Irish about the Gypsies, a Southwester about the local Indian tribes or the Lancaster people about the Amish...you'll get a different perspective based on actual observation vs. a hagiographic picture from TV and afar.

[CrouchingCheese]

Out here in Northeast Ohio draft breeds usually get started at a young age.

It's not uncommon to see a "team" of a two year old and a three year old (Mares and geldings) for sale, they just start them and sell them as dead broke, quiet, farm work horses.

However, keep in mind that it's not necessarily as hard on a horse's joints to be driven than to be ridden (yes, there are exceptions, this is a generalization).

But I agree with most of the people on this thread that this horse was driven too hard for a three year old, just saying it's not uncommon...

[RidesAHaflinger]

Not to divert from the subject (very far) but please explain the history of your screen name. There's got to be some kind of interesting story there. Most of us drivers seem to have fairly easy to discern screen names, although mine should probably be DrivesAHaflinger. But I originally registered on COTH to respond to a thread about Haflingers in dressage and then I wandered over here and found some of my Florida buds inhabiting this forum.

[CrouchingCheese]

I repeat, you don't want to come back as an Amish owned horse...especially one of their buggy horses.

Their Belgians plow horses are necessary to run the farm, they get decent treatment.

The retired standardbreds they get off the tracks have a bad life. Not just one or two, a lot of them (or to be more accurate, the Maryland and Lancaster/Shippensburg area Amish...both of which I have a lot of experience with).

Look into the American Humane Society and Humane Society websites for stories and commentaries about puppy mills and who are the worst abusers of these sad dogs...it's the Amish, especially the GAP, PA area for some reason (outside Lancaster). The guy who built a carriage for me had a barn with at least 20 wire cages of toy breeds for his wife to earn money with. It's the new "egg money" business.

That someone drives a horse for their daily transportation doesn't mean they know any more about the horse than the average driver knows how to repair the car. There is no magical knowledge they possess, they aren't somehow closer to the earth etc., they're a fairly backwards religious insular sect that is becoming horribly inbred with increasing birth defects due to the shallow gene pool. This isn't bias, it's based on data on their demographic group.

The Amish are not some version, as in the movie "Witness," of quaint people who are so colorful and cute. Ask a Brit or Irish about the Gypsies, a Southwester about the local Indian tribes or the Lancaster people about the Amish...you'll get a different perspective based on actual observation vs. a hagiographic picture from TV and afar.

Ok, I just read your post (we posted at the same time, both from Amish Country...ironic)

Not all Amish are the monsters you are making them out to be. Many are, yes, and the trend seems to be continuing, but there are very respectable and honest Amish out there, you just have to look.

Case in point, I visited an Amish farm once where they were hosting a seminar on a new vitamin supplement. There were at least 50 men in attendence (I was the only girl, well, me and my friend) and all were very interested in the vitamin (I believe it was something to strengthen the hoof wall). Anyway, even after the whole hoof discussion, a lot of talk opened up about feed and such. These guys were talking about proper horse nutrition, not just "throw 'em a handful of grain and walk away."

I agree that many of the buggy horses are treated like crap. One of my dear friends' jobs is to visit the hitching posts around town and inspect the horses tied. If a horse looks to be too lame, or in too much pain or whatever she is to immediately report it to the local Animal shelter (or whatever it is, I can't remember the name, not ASPCA, but similar).

She reports many horses a year, sadly enough.

However, I've lived here all my life, and I've known quite a few amish people and their horses. Many of the horses we pass on the road (or see in a field) are fat, happy, and healthy. A lot of Amish take at least some pride in their horses, and will try to keep them healthy (if for nothing else because if they don't have a horse, they have to pay to get carted around by an Amish taxi driver).

Just my two cents worth.

Oh yeah, if you ever want to see the most caring Amish community ever go down to Millersburg, Ohio. I was amazed at the level of care and just the beauty of the place. Definitely somewhere I'd visit again.

[KellyS]

Glad someone else has posted to this effect. I can't stand prejudicial stereotype no matter who its aimed at. However with regard to horsemanship: generally the Amish community have a much wider and deeper knowledge base and with skills daily utilised and this is not as general amongst the majority of the horse owning population. Indeed I'd say that Amish folks were more likely to have better trained horses, better cared for horses and better access to assistance and advice. Quite simply they are reliant and dependent on their horses for transortation, pleasure and work. I very much doubt you'd get an Amish driver having to resort to asking on a forum (even if they had computers!) how to pretty basic stuff like harness/bit/shoe/feed a horse. Sadly all too many folks nowadays get horses and then set about learning with them through things like forums.

Have you driven through Lancaster PA on a hot, humid summer day? I have and the I've seen many distressed, lame horses pulling the Amish buggies down the road. Have you been to New Holland sales where the cast off Amish horses are being sold for slaughter?

No, not all of them treat their horses like this, but quite a few do and it is general knowledge in our area (we are less than an hour from Lancaster) that the Amish horses lead a very rough life.

[CrouchingCheese]

Not to divert from the subject (very far) but please explain the history of your screen name. There's got to be some kind of interesting story there. Most of us drivers seem to have fairly easy to discern screen names, although mine should probably be DrivesAHaflinger. But I originally registered on COTH to respond to a thread about Haflingers in dressage and then I wandered over here and found some of my Florida buds inhabiting this forum.

Well, it used to be CheeseGoddess (when I was in high school), but then I broke up with my then boyfriend and wanted a new email and everything, so, one day whilst sitting at the computer I tried to think of a new one.

I was stumped, I knew I wanted something with the word cheese in it (since I like it so much), but I didn't know what. Lo and behold, on the tv (which was playing in the same room as I) came a commercial for the movie "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon."

While I thought it was a crappy movie, I liked the flow of CrouchingCheese, and besides, I'm a lurker, so I guess it fits :p

Oh, and somebody emailed me a while ago saying whenever they saw my screenname the first thing to pop into their head was "Crouching Cheese...Hidden Cracker!"

[RidesAHaflinger]

Oh, and somebody emailed me a while ago saying whenever they saw my screenname the first thing to pop into their head was "Crouching Cheese...Hidden Cracker!"
:D Glad I asked. Thanks for 'splaining it.