Diarrhea...what a mess! Now peritonitis of unknown origin...vets please weigh in!

[Dune]

Ok, so if you read my last thread, said mare is supposed to be getting over a virus. Had a high fever, doses of bute and banamine, fever has waned but poor filly is still a bit listless and has major diarrhea! :eek: It's been really bad since about Friday. There aren't even "piles" or "splats" in the stall (unless you count the ones on the wall):sigh:, it's all in her tail and on her rump. She's eating and drinking, doesn't appear to be getting dehydrated but has lost weight and has that "tucked up" appearance. ANYway :rolleyes: my vet seems to think that it's just a matter of the virus running its course, but I'm starting to get antsy again. I did a search but didn't come up with any solutions, is there anything that can be given to help this particular symptom?...is it wise to even try? We just don't have sick horses, I'm having a hard time with this one. :(

[Ghazzu]

Probiotics and anti-ulcer medication.
Talk to your vet.

[ChocoMare]

You need to support her as much as possible gut wise. If she'll eat it, try Vanilla Yogurt as often as she'll take it--maybe mix in a bit of Gatorade powder for flavor and electrolytes. It will at least keep putting good things back in without upsetting her tummy. Of course, monitor that water intake and do frequent skin pinch tests.

Major jingles for your mare!

[serena]

Keep a very good eye on her feet and check her gums often. I'd be very suspicious of erlichia (sp?) or something of the like.

[Ghazzu]

Keep a very good eye on her feet and check her gums often. I'd be very suspicious of erlichia (sp?) or something of the like.

Likewise.

[Coup De Des]

try and keep her fluids up as much as you can.. you can make her some cordial with a few small dollops of mollassess mixed in water, or gatorade as suggested earlier. Also Clean her back end and put some nappy rash cream on to ease the burn.

[Cherry]

I think I would hold off on the electrolytes and molasses.... Right now there is an excess of moisture in the manure and the last thing you want to do is add to it by adding that to the horses diet at this time. Molasses also has a laxative effect.

You might try giving some rehydrated beet pulp and chopped hay to your horse; beet pulp contains pectin which is used as a thickening agent in jellies and jams. ;)

What Ghazzu said too! :yes:

[YoungFilly]

After doing a search, dry foods are the best alterative you can take. I say that with looking for an equine formula of kaopectate. There is not one. If I were you I would give fluids at the horses need and only give food thats drier than sweet. Plently of hay.

[Buffyblue]

My vet recommended regular human-grade Kaopectate (several pints per day - what a mess getting that into the horse's mouth) for a horse of mine who unexplicably had diarrhea for a week! Check with your vet for correct amount, as I can't remember exactly. He also had me add a cup of dry wheat bran to her feed AM and PM. She had no other symptoms (i.e. fever) and this treatment worked for her. Also make sure your horse is drinking enough to avoid dehydration. Hope she's feeling better soon.

[goeslikestink]

did hee check a worm count and blood cells white against red

if shes losting weith its propbabaly gastric entrintus ad ifg she wasnt wormed propley before you had her then the red cells could be low --and theref ore no anti bodies to fight the virus -- i say this becuase auntys horse wasnt taken care of when she got her as a 2yr old she ahd her 41/2yrs beofre she got the gastrics end result wasnt good --hope you dont mind me sayiing no to look on the bleak side of things but maybe have it as a warning to do something about it now --hopefully your out come will be bbetter -- i wish you all the luck in the world

[MissBri]

Get the blood work done and check for erhlichia - then at least you'll know it's not that - although it sounds an awful lot like it

Some times the horse can combat erhlichia on their own, but most times they need chemical help (usually initial high dose of tetracyclene followed by a ten day course of doxycylene).

Definitely not something I'd be waiting on.

[Trails]

I had a yearling the vet thinks may have gotten into a milkweed plant. Severe runs!! It would shoot out his rear (3-4 ft) and splat against the stall wall. It looked like muddy water and smelled so foul. Poor fellow - he was sick. It took a gallon of Kaopectate to have it start to become solid (a little like cow patties). The vet came everyday for a week. Lots of electrolytes and lots of kaopectate.

[Joanz]

Until she improves, you might want to make your life simpler by braiding her tail and wrapping it.

[MissBri]

Update?

[gabz]

I've not dealt with diarrhea in horses, but in young children, you need to hydrate because of the fluid loss in the diarrhea.

So I wouldn't think you should elminate fluids, but balance them with foods that will even out and balance the proper intestinal bacteria.

Baby oil or a zinc oxide paste on the butt will reduce the irritation from the diarrhea. Braiding the tail is another good recommendation.

[Dune]

Update?

Thanks for asking. Still dealing with it. Had the vet out the other day to pull blood, it all comes back fairly normal as in we're dealing with residual from a virus. Vet tubed some Biosponge (sp?) into stomach to help firm up stools, inserted catheter and ran fluids because she's slightly dehydrated (do you guys know how looooooong this takes, phew!), and started on antiobiotics just to be on the safe side. I had to get very proactive to get this done as the vets just think she needs to be left alone to fight it out herself. :confused: I don't get that. Is erlichia more of a regional problem? I've never heard of it out west.

[EqTrainer]

Since antibiotics can cause the runs, how do you determine what is what now?

I feel for you, Dune. Seems like it's a day late and a dollar short, no?

[Dune]

Since antibiotics can cause the runs, how do you determine what is what now?

I feel for you, Dune. Seems like it's a day late and a dollar short, no?

Ya think, don't even get me started....:mad::rolleyes:

[serena]

Don't know what you have out west, but I had a mare last year that had bad diarrhea, spiked fever, vet said IMPOSSIBLE that it was PHF because "we don't have it here", she started crashing on me (gums went really, really dark FAST) so rushed her to hospital. Same story because I wanted her treated with tetracycline "we don't have PHF here", at the time her feet were still cold but over 36 hours after she arrived, she started developping laminitis. Only then did they finally say that it *could* be possible so gave her the tetra. After 24 hours, no more symptoms- but of course now I had a mare with laminitis. Diagnosis when she finlly left: PHF.

If your mare has a salt lick, I'd take it out and see if that helps. Now I've had 2 different ideas on the salt (vets at hospital gave one to my mare, stating it would help her drink more water and good for dehydration) yet I had another vet out here looking at a mare I had with explosive diarrhea who was looking better after 2 days of IV fluids, but as soon as she satrted licking her salt, it came back right away; that vet said don't give salt to horse with diarrhea. Dehydration is more than just lack of water. He also gave the mare some brown boluses that helped. I'll see if I can find the name of the stuff. She was back to solid in 24 hours.

[serena]

Well it started with an "a" so didn't take me long to check my past google searches!!

astrival bolus

First time I'd ever used these, but seemed to help.

[Dune]

The biosponge seems to have helped a little bit. There was at least a couple of cow patties in her stall today instead of just liquid. After giving the fluids last night, she was much perkier and seemed happier last night as well as today. Eating and drinking better last night, so I know it wasn't just the antibiotics kicking in. While everyone else around the barn and, I guess on this board, seems to think that the vets were too slow in reacting/supporting...both vets are kinda like NO big deal. :confused: It's a virus, they said, there's nothing you can do.......... Do we have any vets on this board, that even in hindsight, (knowing now that the bloodwork showed typical signs of a virus, perking up after only fluids are administered) agree/disagree? Of course, the diarrhea is still not completely resolved and could go backward again tomorrow so maybe "hindsight" isn't the right word, we're still far from being out of the woods...:(

[ThreeHorseNight]

Forgive me if this is irrelevant -- I don't know if it's appropriate in your case. I have an older gelding who would sometimes get diarrhea from we don't know what, but it may have been when a new load of hay came in. I gave him psyllium pellets for a few days, and it seemed to help.

His would land on his hind legs and irritate them. Poor guy.

Good luck to you. I hope your horse is feeling better soon.

[Dune]

Forgive me if this is irrelevant -- I don't know if it's appropriate in your case. I have an older gelding who would sometimes get diarrhea from we don't know what, but it may have been when a new load of hay came in. I gave him psyllium pellets for a few days, and it seemed to help.

His would land on his hind legs and irritate them. Poor guy.

Good luck to you. I hope your horse is feeling better soon.

She was sick with a really bad fever from what the vets think was a virus, so the new load of feed doesn't really fit. However, it's interesting that you mention feeding the psyllium pellets for a few days. My vet did suggest that as well just to maybe help stop the cycle. She won't eat them though as her dietary habits have become a bit pickier. Go figure.

[ThreeHorseNight]

She was sick with a really bad fever from what the vets think was a virus, so the new load of feed doesn't really fit. However, it's interesting that you mention feeding the psyllium pellets for a few days. My vet did suggest that as well just to maybe help stop the cycle. She won't eat them though as her dietary habits have become a bit pickier. Go figure.

Could you hide the pellets in something? Or try a different brand of pellets? My older horse has gotten very picky about eating supplements. But I do think the psyllium helped. It's like taking Metamucil....

[Home Again Farm]

BioSpnge is very good and it may be useful to give it several times. Another very useful product is VBG gel, which has been nothing short of miraculous. See link below:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=9f7d0709-7c55-4fa7-a5cc-bdb8511c64ee

Another useful product is Pepto paste. See link:

http://www.heartlandvetsupply.com/cart/product_info.php?cPath=2_37&products_id=1117&osCsid=368670eef930e8df7fd3bd9d01e3db30

I got my PhD in diarrhea in 2004 with a very sick orphan foal. Hope your sweet mare gets better very soon. Jingling for her. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

[Dune]

BioSpnge is very good and it may be useful to give it several times. Another very useful product is VBG gel, which has been nothing short of miraculous. See link below:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?PGGUID=9f7d0709-7c55-4fa7-a5cc-bdb8511c64ee

Another useful product is Pepto paste. See link:

http://www.heartlandvetsupply.com/cart/product_info.php?cPath=2_37&products_id=1117&osCsid=368670eef930e8df7fd3bd9d01e3db30

I got my PhD in diarrhea in 2004 with a very sick orphan foal. Hope your sweet mare gets better very soon. Jingling for her. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
At this point, I consider the Biosponge to be just about miraculous! :yes: We now have fully formed, normal looking manure piles for two days. Yay! (do they have an icon for that?) THANK YOU for the link to the Pepto paste, I was looking and looking for something like that to use before my vet tubed the Biosponge. I will remember that, very useful. Thanks for jingling and how did you know she was sweet? :winkgrin: This is just the best mare there ever was and I'm hoping now that we're on the mend. Thanks again. :)

[Home Again Farm]

I knew she sweet from all you have shared about her over time. ;) So glad that the BioSponge did the trick. I keep the VBG gel in my first aid kit because it is almost as good and much easier to use. I should own stock in the pepto paste after raising our little orphan Ballerina. Hope your girl continues to improve! :yes: :D

[Blueskidoo]

My mare just got back from Morvan (vet hospital) with direah (I can never spell that!)

She recieved IV fluids, gastro guard, antibiotics (she had a uterinine infection so she was also being flushed and infused) but the really interesting thing was she participated in a study on a special anti-dirreah plasma treatment.

This plasma is from hyperimmunized horses for several dirreah causing organisms. She recieved 4 bags, 2 or 3 (I'm not sure) orally by stomach tube, and 1 or 2 IV. The day after she recieved the plasma her manure was significatly improved. This product has been around for several years, but she is working on the first trials to see hwat kind of symptoms get the best response.

OP- I'm glad your horse is doing better, I thought I'd add this here for future reference.

[Dune]

My mare just got back from Morvan (vet hospital) with direah (I can never spell that!)

She recieved IV fluids, gastro guard, antibiotics (she had a uterinine infection so she was also being flushed and infused) but the really interesting thing was she participated in a study on a special anti-dirreah plasma treatment.

This plasma is from hyperimmunized horses for several dirreah causing organisms. She recieved 4 bags, 2 or 3 (I'm not sure) orally by stomach tube, and 1 or 2 IV. The day after she recieved the plasma her manure was significatly improved. This product has been around for several years, but she is working on the first trials to see hwat kind of symptoms get the best response.

OP- I'm glad your horse is doing better, I thought I'd add this here for future reference.

Was your mare there at the hospital only to be treated for the uterine infection? That's too bad if that was the case and she got so sick because of it, although that's similar to my story too, I guess. :( Was the gastroguard given as a preventative? I ask because today my girl was colicky and I had to have the vet out. (yes, on Mothers' Day) :sigh: He tubed her with mineral oil, charcoal and I'm not sure what else. (I'm exhausted, can't remember) He also gave her gastroguard as a preventative/treatment in case she's developing ulcers from the stress/antibiotics/bute-banamine (the latter of which she's no longer getting). Your mare's treatment for diarrhea sounds quite exotic, I've never heard of it but will mention it to my vet. The BioSponge, however, was quite effective and, if I read my bill correctly, was VERY inexpensive...although you do have to tranq and tube for it as well.

[Blueskidoo]

The way the whole problem cascaded was...

Foal born 11:30pm Friday night.

Sunday morning mare a little lame. Sunday afternoon mare more lame, vet comes, mare has laminitis in all four feet, probable cause- uterine infection. Immedeate flushing and infusion of the uterous, sistemic antibiotics, bute and banimine, and gastroguard. Foal gets GG too.

Monday at lunch time, vet out, mare is doing great, we think everything is under control, continue treatment. Monday evening, mare acting a tiny bit strange, and she is passing frequent small amounts of dark urine. Vet is called, consensis is she is concentrating her urine and about to break with dirreah. Off to the vet hospital we go...

The question that we don;t have a clear answer to is what exactly caused the dirreah. It could have been another secondary reaction to the infection, it could have been totall disruption of her gut from all the medication (we agressivly treated for the laminitis) or it could have been that in her weakened state another dirreah causing organism took hold.

We always give gastro guard to foals that are sick, or if their mothers are sick, and to adult horses that are recieving more that 2 grams bute per day, or if they are getting it for more than a week, or if they are getting the bute/banimine for an illness rather than a lameness. Anything to keep the gut happier.

She was refered to the hospital because of the impending dirreah. We could have managed the uterine infection at home, and we had the laminitis under control before she got there, but the added complication of the dirreah was the reason we were sent in. She was on IV fluid starting the moment she arrived, and they were running them the first day (mon night to tuesday night) and then they were on a maintence level wednesday and thursday morning, she went off them thurday afternoon, and was home on friday afternoon.

Bio sponge is a a great product as well, we have used it on foals here. The attending vet at the hospital did her masters work in dirreah, and since she was doing this study felt that she was an excellent candidate for the plasma treatment. The plasma is normally $800 for one treatment, so if money is too much of a concern it wouldn't be an option. However, her manure was well on it's way to normal less than 24 hours after recieving it, so I think it helped significantly. It also gave her much needed proteine, regular plasma is used in the same way as a treatment because it provides proteine and stuff.

I'm sorry to hear your mare is having more problems. Please let me know if you have any more questions about my mare's treatment or I can help you in any way.

[Trails]

I am so glad to see that things are improving with your horse. Getting the runs can be quite dangerous but it looks like you're on the road to recovery. :)

[Blueskidoo]

Dune-

How's she doing? Better?

[Dune]

Dune-

How's she doing? Better?
Thanks for asking, but no. She had a mild colic episode over the weekend, which passed after being tubed with charcoal/mineral oil...seemed fine Mon/Tues. Yesterday (Weds) midday she went down, and I mean down. :( She had totally normal manure/urine in her stall and food/water intake was just right and then was NOT all right. She's at the hospital now, diagnosed with peritonitis of unknown origin, things do not look good. They're treating her medically at this point with stronger antibiotics since the fever is back and blood work shows an infection of some sort. They talked last night about exploratory surgery, but I'm really against that unless she is in distress. She's not in distress at this point, just really lethargic, this is SO strange. They are puzzled at the hospital as well. Whatever this is it's not a textbook case, that's for sure. :sigh: Tell me yours is doing well, please, I need some good news.

[ChocoMare]

:no: Oh Dune sweetie :cry:

BIG Jingles for your mare.

[serena]

Jingles for your mare, Dune.

Oddly, I had a mare last fall who aborted and all looked fine but about 2 weeks after developed diarrhea. Vet was out as she was mildly dehydrated, gave her 2 bottles IV and diagnosed her with a uterine infection. It took 4 days to get the diarrhea under control, of which we kept her on IV the following 2 days (at home). Same story though, the vet felt the diarrhea was unrelated to the infection but it sounds like maybe there actually is a correlation...

[Blueskidoo]

Dune- I'm sooooo sorry to hear about your girl! Daisy (my girl) is doing great, though she still hasn't fully returned to soundness, we are having that looked at on Monday. Medically she is doing fine. We are slowly working her back up to her feed ration, the vet at the hospital thinks I'm a little over the top, but it can't hurt to be careful. Since she is nursing she is continuing to loose weight though. There are worse things than that though.

Lots of jingles for your girl! Did they do a belly tap? Stool cultures? Is the dirreah back too?

If you want to talk, PT me with your number and I'll give you a call.

I'm sad to hear she's not doing well. <hugs>

[Home Again Farm]

Oh my goodness, I just saw this. Jingling loudly and constantly for your sweet mare. Hugs to you. I hope things turn for the better soon and she recovers fully. :sadsmile:

[Blueskidoo]

More jingles for your girl from Virginia!

[Dune]

Gosh you guys...thanks so much! :D As of last night, things were looking quite a bit better. I was able to take her out of her stall for a little bit and she seemed much perkier. I hope that this trend continues. I have to say that hospitals really do need to work on the little details that would very much improve a horse's state. I'll post about that later, right now I'm encouraged by her wanting to eat...and eat NOW! That's always a good sign....:yes:

[goeslikestink]

thats not an easy thing to cure pertintis i did think that i wish you well with her its one of those srnerios they dont know the proper cause or whys --but will say its 50- 50 from here on in -- the choice for you to make if exploring
is having an up to weight mare is one thing and another for one thats not
its a huge risk and as theres no known cure for pertinitus then i hope the anti botic work for her i wish you all the luck in the world with this girl she has a will a strong one to be able to come so far when so ill -- if shes come thorught it all i think you will go down in medical history as a success storey and vets will wrtie in journals about her --good luck matey

[Blueskidoo]

Hey Dune!

How's she doing? Still jingling!

[Dune]

Hey Dune!

How's she doing? Still jingling!

Thanks for asking. :winkgrin: Well, they released her from the hospital. She is on penicillin and Baytril. I'm monitoring her temp/food/water intake and output. I'm a bit worried since she's just starting having "cow patty" poops again when they had been fully formed for a while now. I'm hoping that it's just from the antibiotics and not that whatever this "thing" is now getting the better of the antibiotics. She's still a bit lethargic, it's hard to tell if it's just from everything she's been through or again, if things are tanking again. :confused: They did do a preg check at the hospital and of course, she's not pregnant, which at this point is a minor detail. The good part about this exam is that we know for sure that it wasn't a breeding (AI) issue. The frustrating thing is that they still really don't know why this is happening. :(

[Dune]

mare was taken to the hospital with a fever 102.8 and no gut sounds. Mild impaction of the ileum and pelvic flexure. Abdominal u/s was performed and several loops of slightly distended small bowel with good motility were seen as well as mildly increased peritoneal fluid. An abdominocentesis revealed turbid, serosanguineous fluid with a total protein of 2/6 g/dl and 41,000 white cells. Most of these cells were neutrophils with variable toxicity, but no bacteria were observed. A sample was submitted for culture but as of today 5/22 nothing has "grown". CBC revealed 18,700 leukocytes with 16,700 neutrophils and a normal fibrinogen (370 mg/dl). Blood chemistry panel was unremarkable. They wanted to do exploratory surgery when I first brought her in but she improved so dramatically when treated with the penicillin and Baytril, they released her. I'm still very concerned, obviously, and the whole "of unknown" origin just doesn't sit well with me. :sigh:Are we still missing something or do you sometimes just never get an answer?? Thanks for any and all help! :):yes:

[Dune]

The above post was the vet's discharge summary report. Also wanted to add that as of today we are back to having cow patties. :sigh: I'm hoping that's from the antibiotics and that it won't get worse. We will pull blood tomorrow and run it before, hopefully, discontinuing the penicillin on Saturday...will continue with Baytril for another week.

[suniday]

Dune, I just read this thread. I have a horse that survived peritonitis of an unknown origin. He was kept on IV antibiotics at New Bolton Center for close to a week before they would even consider releasing him. When he came home, he was on A LOT of oral antibiotics. Within a couple of days his manure went to cow patties, too. It also stayed that way for quite a while. I tried the yogart and also tried the past probiotic and they never did anything for him.

When he had a kidney infection (yeah, I know they aren't supposed to get them :)) a couple of years ago, I went ahead and started him on Fasttrack Probiotic along with the antibiotic and never had a problem with the diarrhea. Can you get some probiotics? The vet never suggested a probiotic along with the antibiotic, but in my case I KNOW it helped him.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

[Blueskidoo]

Dune-

I'm sorry to hear she is having cow patties again. I don't have much to offer, except be sure to keep on top of her hydration, but of course you knew that :)

I know the antibiotics can be killer on the gut, probiotics are a good idea, is she on gastro guard or anything? I would also be sure to keep a close eye on her feet, as my mare's uterine infection gave her laminitis. Systemic infections can do that.

Just lots of jingles and hugs from here. I hope she gets better soon.

[happyhorsegirl]

I'm sure a diagnosis like this has already been suggested, but the symptoms your horse has are very similar to those of a horse I know who was diagnosed and treated successfully (with oxytetracyclene I think) for Potomac horse fever last fall. Some of the tick borne illnesses like ehrlichia (sp?) also have similar symptoms.
Not sure if PHF is even found in your area, but though I'd mention it...
Good luck and jingling for your girl.

[Ghazzu]

I agree that probiotics are a good idea--I would, however, run it by the clinician handling the case, so you don't get told you shouldn't have, after the fact.

Was the possibility of an abdominal abscess raised? Any suspicions on ultrasound?

[suniday]

Ghazzu (or anyone else who knows) - are there circumstances when you wouldn't want to give probiotics while a horse is getting antibiotics?

[Ghazzu]

Ghazzu (or anyone else who knows) - are there circumstances when you wouldn't want to give probiotics while a horse is getting antibiotics?

There are a few reports in the human literature of people taking probiotics while on antibiotics and having problems related to overgrowth of the organisms contained in the probiotics, but I don't know that this has occurred in horses.

It might be a concern in an immunosuppressed animal. It would also be somewhat dependednt on the specific organisms in the probiotic, I would imagine.

My caution was mostly so that the OP wouldn't get the clinician upset by administering something they weren't aware of. (Plus, if it helped, that would be good information for the DVM to have!)

[Dune]

Dune, I just read this thread. I have a horse that survived peritonitis of an unknown origin. He was kept on IV antibiotics at New Bolton Center for close to a week before they would even consider releasing him. When he came home, he was on A LOT of oral antibiotics. Within a couple of days his manure went to cow patties, too. It also stayed that way for quite a while. I tried the yogart and also tried the past probiotic and they never did anything for him.

When he had a kidney infection (yeah, I know they aren't supposed to get them :)) a couple of years ago, I went ahead and started him on Fasttrack Probiotic along with the antibiotic and never had a problem with the diarrhea. Can you get some probiotics? The vet never suggested a probiotic along with the antibiotic, but in my case I KNOW it helped him.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

Can you send me a private message regarding the types of antibiotics used, what his symptoms were, age/breed/type of horse, how/when you started seeing an improvement, whether or not his belly tap "grew anything", ultrasound reports, and anything else you can think of? Thanks! :)

[Dune]

I'm sure a diagnosis like this has already been suggested, but the symptoms your horse has are very similar to those of a horse I know who was diagnosed and treated successfully (with oxytetracyclene I think) for Potomac horse fever last fall. Some of the tick borne illnesses like ehrlichia (sp?) also have similar symptoms.
Not sure if PHF is even found in your area, but though I'd mention it...
Good luck and jingling for your girl.

Thanks, we're out of the area for PHF and I've tried mentioning erlichia to the vets but for some reason I can't remember right now, they don't think it "fits". :(

[Dune]

I agree that probiotics are a good idea--I would, however, run it by the clinician handling the case, so you don't get told you shouldn't have, after the fact.

Was the possibility of an abdominal abscess raised? Any suspicions on ultrasound?

I did try the probiotics last time she had diahrrhea and it had no effect whatsoever, good thought though. Today I gave her the BioSponge paste, so we'll see how that goes. They are still cow patties, not too liquid-y so I guess it's good that it's not getting as bad as it was before. Would it more likely be the penicillin causing it or the Baytril? My vet said the Baytril, which is supposed to continue for another week. We pulled blood today to run another panel. No possibility of an abscess was raised...what would cause that? The ultrasound findings were just what I posted above in the vet's discharge report....ideas??? :sigh:

[Dune]

Dune-

I'm sorry to hear she is having cow patties again. I don't have much to offer, except be sure to keep on top of her hydration, but of course you knew that :)

I know the antibiotics can be killer on the gut, probiotics are a good idea, is she on gastro guard or anything? I would also be sure to keep a close eye on her feet, as my mare's uterine infection gave her laminitis. Systemic infections can do that.

Just lots of jingles and hugs from here. I hope she gets better soon. I'm checking her hydration, it's good. Her feet, they're good. I asked my vet about gastrogard again but he's pretty convinced that is more for stomach ulcers, not really for "soothing" (for lack of a better word) the intestinal lining. She's eating good, drinking plenty and seems to be in fairly good spirits. The blood results should tell us more.

[Home Again Farm]

Jingling like mad for your girl. I would bet that the manure consistency is from her meds. Cow patties are not diarrhea, so (especially because she's a mature horse rather than a foal), I'll bet that she'll be fine when they are discontinued. I am jingling in the meantime. :yes:

[Heart-n-Soul]

Jingling hard for your mare. I hope the BioSponge paste works. What a mess!

[Ghazzu]

I did try the probiotics last time she had diahrrhea and it had no effect whatsoever, good thought though. Today I gave her the BioSponge paste, so we'll see how that goes. They are still cow patties, not too liquid-y so I guess it's good that it's not getting as bad as it was before. Would it more likely be the penicillin causing it or the Baytril? My vet said the Baytril, which is supposed to continue for another week. We pulled blood today to run another panel. No possibility of an abscess was raised...what would cause that? The ultrasound findings were just what I posted above in the vet's discharge report....ideas??? :sigh:

Biosponge is good stuff.
As for what would cause an abscess, varies considerably. Lots of potential nasty bugs.

Ideas? Nothing that it doesn't sound like your vets haven't considered.

Hope she contimues to improve. If the problem resolves, it doesn't matter so much if the best diagnosis you can come up with is SBI.

[goeslikestink]

jingles matey xx and a cuddle look like i said shes a fighter -

[goeslikestink]

just had another thought could you test your soil for solium --alaki-- etc
might be the cuase of the original illness to much of one mineral and not enough of the other-- sometimes they can pick up bugs from the soil itsself and that also can do what she like -- just a thought

[Fakina]

I had a gelding who had serious diarhea 2 times this past winter. It sounds just as you described it, on the walls. He was tested for salmonella and all the others, but he was always negative. I tried Pepto Bismal, Probiotics (which he normally gets daily), ruling out different feeds, and BIOSPONGE. I think BIOSPONGE and time were what he needed because in about a week, he was better. I would try the BIOSPONGE. You can get it from your vet in a tube paste, or a powder which is cheaper, but you have to mix it up yourself and put in a syringe. Good luck.

[TN Lilly]

Dune, how is your girl doing? I hope she's improving.

A young mare at the barn where I board has right dorsal colitis. Some of what you have described with your girl sounds similar to what this mare has experienced. Right dorsal colities causes major diarrhea. This is a quote from an article on this ailment:"Right dorsal colitis in horses has been associated with administration of phenylbutazone." It is my understanding that right dorsal colitis can occur with normal doses of phenylbutazone or other NSAIs.

Here is another quote: "Right dorsal colitis (RDC) is a life threatening ulcerative inflammatory condition of the colon. The condition is most often seen in horses being treated with non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs such as phenylbutazone or flunixin meglumine for another medical problem (such as lameness or endotoxemia)."


If your girl has not improved, you may want to ask about this as a possibility. Hopefully, your girl does not have this, as it's a pretty bad ailment.

Good luck.

[EqTrainer]

OMG Dune.. I'm sorry I missed that this was still going on.. geez. You must be beside yourself.

I think you are right on with the Gastroguard. My reasoning is, that ANYTIME my horses are stressed, as your girl has been (think about it - first the breeding farm, and how fun was that?! and then getting sick, and then going to the clinic) they are going to have ulcer issues. I give them Gastroguard preventatively for all those type of events, so heck yeah I'd be giving it to her now. Unless there is some specific medical reason you should not, I think I would. In three days you will know if it has help or not IME.

You'll be in my thoughts.

[Dune]

Jingling like mad for your girl. I would bet that the manure consistency is from her meds. Cow patties are not diarrhea, so (especially because she's a mature horse rather than a foal), I'll bet that she'll be fine when they are discontinued. I am jingling in the meantime. :yes:

That's what I'm counting on, the only thing that makes me nervous is that right before the MAJOR diarrhea started up, she had cow patties. :( This time, however, it's stayed "cow patties" for a couple of days, actually fairly firm cow patties (I'm scooping them out, as I'm on Poop alert :lol:). Keep those jingles comin'!!!!! :yes:

[suniday]

Dune - you have a response to your PM. Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

How is your horse today?

[Fairview Horse Center]

How is she doing today?

[Dune]

How is she doing today?
Thanks for asking. Today was the last day of the penicillin. She will be very happy about that. :winkgrin: She'll continue on the oral antibiotic for another week. The blood results were positive, except for the fibrinogen, which my vet said was elevated but not to worry too much because it has a "delayed reaction". We will pull blood again in a week. She is once again interested in her surroundings, in her food/water, still has cow patties but I think those will clear when the antibiotics are completely discontinued. Hopefully, the discontinuation will NOT result in another relapse. :no: She is very stiff in her neck, which I hope is just because of being poked and prodded so much and NOT because of stepping on that stupid "catch rope". I just cannot tell right now. What I can say is that this is a good mare. :yes:

[AstonMartin]

Hey there,

I have just caught up on all 4 pages of your saga. I'm sorry to hear that she WAS not doing well, but very pleased for you and her that she is feeling better. Its bad enough feeling sick as a human and worse when you cannot do anything about it or ask what hurts.

I will continue to jingle my chains here in AU for her to have a complete and fast (er) recovery!

[LLDM]

Thanks for asking. Today was the last day of the penicillin. She will be very happy about that. :winkgrin: She'll continue on the oral antibiotic for another week. The blood results were positive, except for the fibrinogen, which my vet said was elevated but not to worry too much because it has a "delayed reaction". We will pull blood again in a week. She is once again interested in her surroundings, in her food/water, still has cow patties but I think those will clear when the antibiotics are completely discontinued. Hopefully, the discontinuation will NOT result in another relapse. :no: She is very stiff in her neck, which I hope is just because of being poked and prodded so much and NOT because of stepping on that stupid "catch rope". I just cannot tell right now. What I can say is that this is a good mare. :yes:

Hi Dune - Just read this whole thig quickly as I have been having my own nightmare very similar - but different - from yours.

Long story short - high fever, accute gastrintestinal pain, hives & very low white count. Two horses in isolation for 7 & 6 days respectively. One more treated at home. Worst horse is still dealing with complications. We are 18 days into this. No diaganosis - lots of things it isn't. Responeded to OxyTet. No diarrhea (which really confused everyone).

The reason I write is your fibrinogen results. This is a real problem for my poor mare too. She was just started today on a drug called Misoprostol. Here is a link to an article I found on it: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horsehealth/hhview.asp?recno=55212

After reading this it makes much more sense what we have been dealing with. I believe we are now in an end-stage game of complications. My mare is dumping protein - bigtime - and her muscles look like they are melting away. She finally started eating 3 days ago, but is looking worse and worse - but actaully feeling a bit better. Currently she is on DoxyTet, Sucrafate, GastroGard, Asprin - and just off a 10day protocol of Panacur. Her perscribed low fiber diet is fresh grass, bagged alfalfa and low fiber pellets & electrolytes. Oh, did I mention the thrombosed vein at the catheder site? She is now hypercoagluative now too. She's had intermittant banamine to control the fever - but they (the reg. vet and the referal internist) finally decided this was anti-productive - hence the Misoprostol now.

I really feel for you Dune, as I have no diagnosis either - not even a guess at this point. They started out thinking that is was a toxin, but ended up treating as infectious. I really do feel your pain. I don't have any idea what the source was and 13 more horses here on the farm.

I don't know if the Misoprostol will help your girl - hell I don't know if it will help mine yet. It will most likely cause her to abort, if she did catch and has not aborted already (yours, I mean, as mine was not bred). But the article made sense to me and I think we both might be fighting a hindgut complication issue. It's worth asking your vet about.

FWIW - All my tests came back negative - Salm., PHF and Enrch.

I will jingle like mad for your girl, and would love a jingle back for mine!

I love my vets, but at times I could strangle them. I have really had to chase them around a bit to understand that this is not over yet. I keep hearing the old "died of unforseen complications from <insert disease here>" in my head and I will be damned if it is "unforseen" ! So you keep right on after them!

Just a quick heads up - I don't truely understand the relationship between the fibrinigen, the proteins and coagulation and the damage to the colon/hindgut. But I do know there is a relationship there and when things like this get out of whack it can be tricky to get them all normalized again. I know her white count was very low and then went high /w immature cells and is now close to normal.

Honestly, I don't know if any of this will help you, but hang in there! I have to run now.

SCFarm

[Ghazzu]

Plasma fibrinogen levels are an indicator of inflammation, nothing more specific than that.

[EqTrainer]

LLDM - why the Powerpack? I am asking because I am putting together info on encysted strongyles and the effects they have. It might be very helpful. Thanks much - EqT

[LLDM]

LLDM - why the Powerpack? I am asking because I am putting together info on encysted strongyles and the effects they have. It might be very helpful. Thanks much - EqT

EqT - Honestly, I am not sure. I believe it was part of a protocol to prevent Endocarditis as a complication of this whole mess. Endocarditis can be caused by a bacterial disease (or as the extension of one) and also by small strongyle larva in the bloodstream or an alergic reaction, so, just in case, let's kill off any possibilty of erupting encysted ones. This was more than a power pack - this was a 10 day 50 gm protocol.

I must say that the referal clinic was very, very aggressive with the prevention protocols. Their Laminitis prevention protocol was very extensive also. Considering that both my mares who went there had very high toxin levels (their gums were quite awful) there has been nary a hint of laminitis <SCFarm knocks VERY loudly on wood>.

Ghazzu - In the world of Veterinary medicine I am probably at the "Candy Striper/ bedpan washer" level. I do know that Blue has had at least a dozen purple and green tops pulled. It was all pretty out of whack. I think they are watching creatine and fibrogen mostly right now. I'm just watching the mare.

SCFarm

[EqTrainer]

EqT - Honestly, I am not sure. I believe it was part of a protocol to prevent Endocarditis as a complication of this whole mess. Endocarditis can be caused by a bacterial disease (or as the extension of one) and also by small strongyle larva in the bloodstream or an alergic reaction, so, just in case, let's kill off any possibilty of erupting encysted ones. This was more than a power pack - this was a 10 day 50 gm protocol.

I must say that the referal clinic was very, very aggressive with the prevention protocols. Their Laminitis prevention protocol was very extensive also. Considering that both my mares who went there had very high toxin levels (their gums were quite awful) there has been nary a hint of laminitis <SCFarm knocks VERY loudly on wood>.

Ghazzu - In the world of Veterinary medicine I am probably at the "Candy Striper/ bedpan washer" level. I do know that Blue has had at least a dozen purple and green tops pulled. It was all pretty out of whack. I think they are watching creatine and fibrogen mostly right now. I'm just watching the mare.

SCFarm

Thank you, this is fascinating. Would you mind terribly asking them exactly why they did it? 10 days is indeed a long time. And who is your vet? You probably said but I missed it. Thanks again.. this is very important! Glad to hear your girl is doing better.. how scary for you and her.

[Dune]

Plasma fibrinogen levels are an indicator of inflammation, nothing more specific than that.

Do the levels indeed have a "delayed reaction"? In other words, when I brought my mare to the clinic when she "crashed", they were (I think) 300 and normal. When we took them a week later that were (again, I think) 600. My vet said they were just then starting to reflect how sick she was and from this point on should go down. Don't hold me to the numbers, I'm sleep deprived. :sleepy:

[goeslikestink]

bet you are dune-- but shes still here so theres hope

all in favour of more jingles jangles for her say hi

jingleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees

cuddddddddddddddddddddddddddllllllllllllllllllllll llllllless for you

and prozac----- to kept you awake a pooh -- haha

oh better have the slip banana thingy out of the way to

mined to ssssssssssss--- as they sloppy---

jingles to the little mare xx

[goeslikestink]

can we have a piccy dune a before kinda thingy so we can see her

as shes our family to now --- be nice i think for all of us

so then jingles can go straight to her heart to keep it pumping

[Dune]

Hi Dune - Just read this whole thig quickly as I have been having my own nightmare very similar - but different - from yours.

Long story short - high fever, accute gastrintestinal pain, hives & very low white count. Two horses in isolation for 7 & 6 days respectively. One more treated at home. Worst horse is still dealing with complications. We are 18 days into this. No diaganosis - lots of things it isn't. Responeded to OxyTet. No diarrhea (which really confused everyone).

The reason I write is your fibrinogen results. This is a real problem for my poor mare too. She was just started today on a drug called Misoprostol. Here is a link to an article I found on it: http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horsehealth/hhview.asp?recno=55212

After reading this it makes much more sense what we have been dealing with. I believe we are now in an end-stage game of complications. My mare is dumping protein - bigtime - and her muscles look like they are melting away. She finally started eating 3 days ago, but is looking worse and worse - but actaully feeling a bit better. Currently she is on DoxyTet, Sucrafate, GastroGard, Asprin - and just off a 10day protocol of Panacur. Her perscribed low fiber diet is fresh grass, bagged alfalfa and low fiber pellets & electrolytes. Oh, did I mention the thrombosed vein at the catheder site? She is now hypercoagluative now too. She's had intermittant banamine to control the fever - but they (the reg. vet and the referal internist) finally decided this was anti-productive - hence the Misoprostol now.

I really feel for you Dune, as I have no diagnosis either - not even a guess at this point. They started out thinking that is was a toxin, but ended up treating as infectious. I really do feel your pain. I don't have any idea what the source was and 13 more horses here on the farm.

I don't know if the Misoprostol will help your girl - hell I don't know if it will help mine yet. It will most likely cause her to abort, if she did catch and has not aborted already (yours, I mean, as mine was not bred). But the article made sense to me and I think we both might be fighting a hindgut complication issue. It's worth asking your vet about.

FWIW - All my tests came back negative - Salm., PHF and Enrch.

I will jingle like mad for your girl, and would love a jingle back for mine!

I love my vets, but at times I could strangle them. I have really had to chase them around a bit to understand that this is not over yet. I keep hearing the old "died of unforseen complications from <insert disease here>" in my head and I will be damned if it is "unforseen" ! So you keep right on after them!

Just a quick heads up - I don't truely understand the relationship between the fibrinigen, the proteins and coagulation and the damage to the colon/hindgut. But I do know there is a relationship there and when things like this get out of whack it can be tricky to get them all normalized again. I know her white count was very low and then went high /w immature cells and is now close to normal.

Honestly, I don't know if any of this will help you, but hang in there! I have to run now.

SCFarm

Thank you for that article, it was a very interesting read. :yes: Fortunately we don't have my girl on the Banamine and when we did, it was for a very short time and a very small dose....but still. I will definitely keep that in mind for the future. Dypyrone was always great to use for colic-y situations, my vets have it compounded but still don't use it as much as they used to. I think it's a very useful drug. I feel for you with the thrombosed vein. At the hospital they took the neck wrap off of the catheter and didn't re-wrap it...she ripped it out. :rolleyes: Another one of those: I knew that was going to happen but didn't say anything. I think that I'm going to start "saying things" a lot more now. I don't think that I'll be winning any popularity contests anytime soon. :lol: My mare is holding her own, we've discontined the penicillin but are continuing the oral antibiotics for another week. How are your mares???

[Dune]

O
You'll be in my thoughts.

Thank you! :)

[Dune]

how are your mares doing?? I put mine out for an hour on the grass pasture, she was soooo happy about that. :yes: When the hour was up and I called her she came trotting right up to me for her piece of carrot. I think that's a good sign! :winkgrin:

[Home Again Farm]

Dune and SCFarm,

I continue to jingle and hope for good reports. You've been through so much. Now we need things to get better and better and better! :yes::D:yes:

[goeslikestink]

oooh that sounds good still jingles