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bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:05 PM
See that dressage score--33! WOW!

Xctrygirl
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:18 PM
Yeah but we know he can do that. What we have yet to see is if he can keep it and make time....and then jump clean...at the 4 * level, not 3.

~Emily

JAGold
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:27 PM
Yeah but we know he can do that. What we have yet to see is if he can keep it and make time....and then jump clean...at the 4 * level, not 3.

~Emily
Well, he jumped clean with no time (and ultimately won the event) around the modified format four star at Rolex in 2004. I'm not a huge Windfall fan, but his XC has come a long way. --Jess

Xctrygirl
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:43 PM
I am not saying anything against the skills that he and Darren possess as a team, but their luck at the 4* level is a bit touch and go.

Last year at Rolex he was spun before D. Admittedly he is a short format horse in my book. And he did a good round in 2004 no doubt, I mean come on he won it.

I am not trying to be negative. Just for me, Windfall and Darren have to make it through the finish line in stadium before they get the applause out of me. But that being said, they are a lovely duo to watch in dressage. And they absolutely have my respect as competitors.

~Emily

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:47 PM
Well...I'm impressed. To get an 80% at that level from one of the judges and an over all score of 33...it's impressive to even be at that level and with a stallion which I think makes it even harder. I hope he has a good rest of the event....just like I hope they all have good events. But getting a dressage score like that is a great accomplishment on any horse let alone a fit ready to run event horse.

lizathenag
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:48 PM
before they get the applause out of me.
~Emily

I am happy to applaud their dressage score. just keeping a fit horse in the arena is worthy of applause in my book!

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:53 PM
I am happy for them :) (albeit a bit biased too ;)) and I think they will do wonderfully on cross country. I wouldn't count them out and I think Windfall is more than capable of making the time. He's fit (won the fitness award the same year the modified was run) and he's on his game this year. I for one hope he wins it. He got next to no recognition for winning the modified (not even a watch) and it was still an amazing accomplishment and I think he deserves it.

Go Darren and Windy!

*zipping up flamesuit*

hb
Apr. 28, 2006, 02:56 PM
okay, this is going to sound awful, but after that silly ad with the creepy picture of DC, I hope they don't win, if it would lead to more ads like that.

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 28, 2006, 03:00 PM
okay, this is going to sound awful, but after that silly ad with the creepy picture of DC, I hope they don't win, if it would lead to more ads like that.

I'm sorry, but that is a terrible reason to why someone shouldn't win. Everyone there deserves to win just for making it to that level.

fergie
Apr. 28, 2006, 06:33 PM
That is one arrogant little snit that doesn't "deserve" a thing (the rider, that is....).

fastpace
Apr. 28, 2006, 07:04 PM
Got to watch Darren go today. He REALLY deserved that 33. Atleast someone can beat Kim in the dressage.

I watched every ride today and I think that some of the riders should have gotten a better score than they did (like Nathalie Pollard, Karen O'Connor and William Fox-Pitt). However, I am not a judge so I have no say.

I got to walk a little of the cross country course with Buck Davidson. It will definitely be a challenge (but of course...it's Rolex!).

I feel really bad for Bruce. Jam AND Little Tricky were FULL of themselves. I hope cross country moves positions around. Poor Phillip Dutton too...
If the cross country goes well for everyone (which it probably won't) and the stadium as well, he won't be winning it this year. He got a 57 on Connaught and a 61.3 on Amazing Odyssey. However, This is eventing so anything can happen!!

Praying for good weather tomorrow....

JAGold
Apr. 28, 2006, 07:08 PM
I am not saying anything against the skills that he and Darren possess as a team, but their luck at the 4* level is a bit touch and go.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim their luck is any more touch and go than anyone else's at that level. Windfall has started three 4* events. He won one of them, completed a second (the Olympics, which is technically a four star though of course actually a softer course than the annual four stars), and did not complete the third. His record at the four star level is short but highly respectable.

I've said many times that he's not my type of horse, and I'm not a fan of the positions Darren takes regarding the development of the sport. But I think it's silly to single out Windfall in this way. That's all. --Jess

annikak
Apr. 28, 2006, 08:40 PM
Just like the judges- I hope to judge what I see in the ring and not what I think about them (Darren) as a person - and Darren and Windfall were stunning today. Sally O'C said that they were *both* a bit flamboyant, (:lol: ) and that is what wins dressage. Her comments that that they are indeed in a show- and thats what dressage is about- its a show.

Anyway- it was wonderful. Simple as that. And I agree with JAgold- they can do it- they have before.

I think that some got really low marks, and I think it felt unfair to me (Natalies ride for one) but as another poster said- who am I to judge? I can only say it was a nice test to watch. JMHO

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 28, 2006, 08:54 PM
Just like the judges- I hope to judge what I see in the ring and not what I think about them (Darren) as a person - and Darren and Windfall were stunning today. Sally O'C said that they were *both* a bit flamboyant, (:lol: ) and that is what wins dressage. Her comments that that they are indeed in a show- and thats what dressage is about- its a show.

Anyway- it was wonderful. Simple as that. And I agree with JAgold- they can do it- they have before.

I think that some got really low marks, and I think it felt unfair to me (Natalies ride for one) but as another poster said- who am I to judge? I can only say it was a nice test to watch. JMHO

That's really all I meant by starting this thread....to get a score like that it must have been a really nice test to watch (and will hopefully be on the video). But the great stuff to watch will be tomorrow! Some day I will get there to watch...

Painted Wings
Apr. 28, 2006, 10:45 PM
I watched Windfall today. It was the kind of ride that brings goosebumps to you. It was truly spectacular. I can't imagine how Darren and Tim Holekamp feel.

I sent Tim an email of congratulations and wished him the best of luck tomorrow. They will need it as all riders do. We all know this sport is a combination of skill, talent, and luck. We also all know Windfall can do it.

With a little luck they will prevail tomorrow. We know they have the skill and talent.

Interesting enough I received a prompt reply of thanks from Tim. Truly a class act. They have come a long way since Windfall was imported.

Sitting in the stands all day there was not a more popular horse/rider combination out there, especially after their spectacular performance. The crowd was educated enough to appreciate the quality of the ride.

adamsmom
Apr. 28, 2006, 11:18 PM
That is one arrogant little snit that doesn't "deserve" a thing (the rider, that is....).

Wow, what's that about?

I spoke with Darren after his lovely, goosebump-inducing test, and he was nothing but gracious and deferred all praise to his horse.
They have my applause, and my best wishes.

ThirdCharm
Apr. 28, 2006, 11:35 PM
I met Darren at the Fork and he seemed extremely gracious and pleasant.... *shrug*

When I can do half as well, I'll feel free to snipe, I guess..... :-)

Jennifer

wlrottge
Apr. 29, 2006, 12:54 AM
I expected Darren to have a good ride, however not that good! IMPRESSIVE!

I'm personally rooting for Stephen. I was way impressed to see him do so well on From, however thought he would have done better on Josh, esp after a great first test. A good friend of ours is grooming for him, so we'll have to get the dirt when we talk to her.

I think it's wide open right now between the top riders b/c of the tight grouping of the scores. You've got some VERY talented XC jockeys and tomorrow should prove VERY entertaining esp since the top 5 are within 11 pts and top 17 within 20.

I hate that we couldn't go watch....... next year...

Sannois
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:42 AM
Ralphs Dressage??

adamsmom
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:51 AM
Ralphs Dressage??


Yes. The trot work wasn't bad, though Billy looked a bit tight.
His half passes were not good, so scored lower.

His canter work was also tight, and in one of the changes esp., they got into a bit of a fight about it.
In the end, it was a 61-something, I think.

He and Andrew had hoped to come in around the mid-40s, but it wasn't in the cards yesterday.

:(

pwynnnorman
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:23 AM
I hope they show Windfall's entire ride on the videotape/DVD. Sounds like one to keep! (BTW, just as horses are only horses, humans are only human. And we all know that both can "evolve," even in a single lifetime.)

Sannois
Apr. 29, 2006, 08:18 AM
Yes. The trot work wasn't bad, though Billy looked a bit tight.
His half passes were not good, so scored lower.

His canter work was also tight, and in one of the changes esp., they got into a bit of a fight about it.
In the end, it was a 61-something, I think.

He and Andrew had hoped to come in around the mid-40s, but it wasn't in the cards yesterday.

:(
Bummer! :( Hope he has a fun go on Cross Country, he is so fun to watch. One man that seems to enjoy the hell out of it no matter what! :yes:

fergie
Apr. 29, 2006, 10:01 AM
The reason I think he's and a!@ is from personal experience where he was whispering and giggling about "something" about me to his groom right before I went on phase A of my first three day. It was quite obvious, quite ignorant, and he was quite lucky that my husband wasn't there to see it! Not to mention the other times I've stabled next to him and yuck, puke!

Jazzy Lady
Apr. 29, 2006, 01:18 PM
The reason I think he's and a!@ is from personal experience where he was whispering and giggling about "something" about me to his groom right before I went on phase A of my first three day. It was quite obvious, quite ignorant, and he was quite lucky that my husband wasn't there to see it! Not to mention the other times I've stabled next to him and yuck, puke!

You saying you've never talked about someone behind their back? I'm by no means saying that what he did was right, but for what it's worth, he's a talented rider and Windfall is a talented horse and to say that someone who has worked for something for so long (and he has) and works for something so hard doesn't deserve it because of one experience is pretty ignorant, especially when you know how hard ALL of these riders work to get to that level.

Darren is the first person to be happy for his students, even if they beat him, and he lets them know how proud he is of them. Great coach and a great rider, and I'm sorry you had a bad experience to cloud your judgement of him :(

*stepping off my soapbox now*

Go Windy Go!

magnolia73
Apr. 29, 2006, 03:43 PM
Looks like he retired out on XC.
Hope horse and rider are OK. Looked like a lot of E's & R's......

fergie
Apr. 29, 2006, 04:59 PM
JazzyLady,
Boy, he's got you snowed. First of all, it was in front of my face, very overt, DIRECTLY in front of me, like 2 feet from me, not behind my back! I wanted to punch him in his little daffodil face because it DID rattle me before the most important part of my very first three day! I was thinking "is something really wrong here before I get myself killed on cross-country", and had no time to ask anyone. It was on my mind for quite a while during a time when I should not have been worrying about whether or not I missed something so basic that it made him laugh right in front of me. And I've been around that little puke for years, do you really think that's the first "bad" experience??? That's the only one I'm telling you about...!??? He was the same way when he used to come over to Bruce's for lessons 10 years ago.... All that guy deserves is a good slap in the face. You know, he's not exactly "loved" by the other upper level riders either, and I can understand why!

fastpace
Apr. 29, 2006, 05:02 PM
They are both OK but disappointed. I watched Darren and everyone else go cross country today, and let me tell you, IT WAS A 4 STAR COURSE and a MAJOR challenge.

Darren and Windfall were going great until the complex AFTER the 1st water. He had a stop there, then continued on, then later on in the course he had another stop, then he had ANOTHER stop in the 3rd water, so he decided to retire.

As for Kim S, Vennie looked like he DID NOT want to jump today. Kim was pretty much beating him into every jump. After her rider fall in the water, she decided to retire (the 2nd water).

Dissappointing for Willam Fox-Pitt too. What a nasty fall on Coup de Coeur. His horse hung his legs on the 6 ft. drop into the water fence, then tossed William, then almost landed on William. I'm not sure why he retired Mr. Dumbledore.

Leslie Law....I have no idea what happened. I know he had a stop early on, but I don't know why he retired. Very disappointing..

Poor Mara Dean. I was wishing her all the best before cross country. I think she and Nicki Henley are ok. I believe they both fell at the ditch and brush.

Kai Ruder was going well until his 3 stops. I feel really bad for him.

Did anyone else notice the blood coming out of McKinlaigh's nose? As he got closer to the finish, I noticed blood coming out of his right nostral.

Well....Rolex should DEFINITELY be interesting tomorrow. I have no clue who will win(literally). The top 3 after dressage are all out.

I do have to congratualte all of the Aussies. They did an amazing job around that course.

pwynnnorman
Apr. 29, 2006, 05:26 PM
OK, my money is now solidly on Karen.

Where's everyone else putting it?

Laurel&HollyFarm
Apr. 29, 2006, 05:50 PM
I would love to see Heidi White win.

Sannois
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:05 PM
OK, my money is now solidly on Karen.

Where's everyone else putting it?
How was their cross country??

Bensmom
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:12 PM
Karen and Woody were FANTASTIC xc -- double clear! :D

Go, Woody, GO! :D :yes:

They are currently in 10th place . . .

Sannois
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:18 PM
Karen and Woody were FANTASTIC xc -- double clear! :D

Go, Woody, GO! :D :yes:

They are currently in 10th place . . .
God that horse is so cool!!!!! :D :D :winkgrin:

Xctrygirl
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:36 PM
I could say a lot here, but I won't.

All I will say is that with any leader after dressage you hope that they make it through and do well.

It's too bad that this year that wasn't the case, regardless of who was in the lead.

But as to Darren and Windfall, it was sadly predictable to see their first stop. Now the rest surprised me, but oh well.


~Emily

mbj
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:41 PM
I have to say that Darren has always been VERY generous to me and mine, and there was nothing in it for him. I get really tired of the sniping on this BB about this big name or that. As far as I can tell they ALL work incredibly hard are very talented and deserve our respect and thanks. They would all be very rich and famous if they were tops in other sports. They do this for relative peanuts, work their butts off, risk alot, help each other and the rest of us (something I really like about the sport),and deserve respect. I can't think of a single top eventer in this country who doesn't give back much more than they get.

annikak
Apr. 29, 2006, 06:54 PM
I get really tired of the sniping on this BB about this big name or that. As far as I can tell they ALL work incredibly hard are very talented and deserve our respect and thanks. They would all be very rich and famous if they were tops in other sports. They do this for relative peanuts, work their butts off, risk alot, help each other and the rest of us (something I really like about the sport),and deserve respect. I can't think of a single top eventer in this country who doesn't give back much more than they get.

well said.

Kinsella
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:03 PM
I was disappointed that Windfall didn't make it around, but not surprised. I know he HAS completed a 4*, but never one that I've seen... And of course I had hiked my butt over to the jump just AFTER the one he retired at. Oh well... I got to Rolex just as WFP went on course and was at the water when he fell. Saw it from the back side and that horse was doing everything in his power to stop, just had too much momentum to get stopped and then more flipped over the jump than hung his legs. It was scary and I hope he's OK... He was a bit bloody walking away, and limping as well. Jingles for him tonight...

ottb dressage
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:09 PM
i'm rooting for joshua anbd stephen.

deltawave
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:19 PM
What was all of that about the "horses and riders of today" (meaning in the so-called "modern" era of dressage being the main focus of eventing) being better than the "horses and riders of yesterday"? Left standing are the hard-knockers, the mostly Thoroughbreds, and a whole lot of veterans.

Just saying, is all.

Darren's horse looked like he was jumping fantastically well, but didn't have enough impulsion and will to find his way out of a tough combination. Overtrained? I have no idea, but it did make me wonder if all the emphasis on dressage and submission has left some of these horses lacking the "attack" mode that's required for a tough **** course.

SCARY fall for WFP and Coup de Couer! Buck was the first one out and had a tough ride there, too--we thought for sure they'd remove the jump but Phillip Dutton who rode third made it look easy.

Sarah looked AWESOME all the way around! :yes: :D

And if Woody doesn't win "best conditioned" I will be surprised. I stood at the finish box for a long time and he was by far the fittest looking horse I saw when I was there.

ottb dressage
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:34 PM
is courageous comet an ottb. i'm curious to see how many other ottbs made the cut today. joshua and tony, i know are ottbs. so i think when it come down to doing the tough work, a tb might just be the one to get the job done, and a tough ottb, even better.

War Admiral
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:40 PM
I'd loff to know which ones are full TBs as well.

deltawave
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:52 PM
Courageous Comet is an American TB. (1st after XC)
Northern Spy: British-bred TB. (3rd)
Woodstock: American TB. (5th)
Westfarthing: British-bred TB. (7th)
Hyperlite: American TB. (9th)
Also full TB: Upstage, Bad Boy Billy, Joshua, El Primero, Sloopy...

(I must add that "British TB" and "NZ TB" are often NOT full TB when one does a bit of digging.)

War Admiral
Apr. 29, 2006, 07:57 PM
Thanks so much, Deltawave!! :yes:

polarbear
Apr. 29, 2006, 08:04 PM
Courageous Comet is an OTTB, check the Thoroughbred horse pedigree query,

http://www.pedigreequery.com/courageous+comet

Shows the riders and the breeding of their horses

http://www.rk3de.org/riders.php

War Admiral
Apr. 29, 2006, 08:11 PM
*slaps forehead*

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh on the Rolex site you have to click on the RIDER to get the horse pedigree!!! I get it nowwwwwwww!! Thank you!!

*feels very stupid*

pwynnnorman
Apr. 29, 2006, 08:15 PM
Overtrained? I have no idea, but it did make me wonder if all the emphasis on dressage and submission has left some of these horses lacking the "attack" mode that's required for a tough **** course.


Now that's an interesting insight!

Oh, and I think Woody (Upstage) is an NZ-bred TB.

buschkn
Apr. 29, 2006, 08:37 PM
Also, be sure to take it with a grain of salt when they are listed as "X" breed. Some of them are listed as TBs that are actually some sort of cross. West Farthing is definitely not full TB. I used to work for them, and he is not a full TB, but nobody seemed to know what exactly and so a TB he becomes. I was speaking to someone else about a horse there that they knew and I was surprised to hear on the loudspeaker it was a TB b/c it was quite big for one, and they said he is actually a cross as well. Wish I could remember which horse now. Not that the TB doesn't rule the 3DE world, just an observation.

annikak
Apr. 29, 2006, 09:00 PM
I agree- I don't think WF is full...

And jenna's Tumble Dry is OTTB- there is another thread that discusses this as well-

fwiw- i don't think that Darren and Windfall ever really got it together- from the 2nd fence on. But I would think that is somewhat like riding a stallion would be...good and bad days. when he listens and gives all- its awesome.

I know a few mares like that!:lol:

Rt66Kix
Apr. 29, 2006, 09:16 PM
Courageous Comet was by FAR my favorite. He ran that course like he was born to do this. Calm, focused, relaxed, just "in the zone." At one jump all his rider had to do was sit upright a bit more with her torso, and he came right back down for her. It was easy and sane and in total harmony; a true thing of beauty.

As he was on course, he was breathtaking. A beautiful gray with a long flowing tail and a ground-eating stride. He just tore it up!!!! I couldn't take my eyes off of him.

One mental snapshot of him that I have should become a Breyer's horse. As you can tell, I was very impressed. Might even say I'm gushing...

kt
Apr. 29, 2006, 09:24 PM
Courageous Comet was by FAR my favorite. He ran that course like he was born to do this. Calm, focused, relaxed, just "in the zone." At one jump all his rider had to do was sit upright a bit more with her torso, and he came right back down for her. It was easy and sane and in total harmony; a true thing of beauty.

As he was on course, he was breathtaking. A beautiful gray with a long flowing tail and a ground-eating stride. He just tore it up!!!! I couldn't take my eyes off of him.

One mental snapshot of him that I have should become a Breyer's horse. As you can tell, I was very impressed. Might even say I'm gushing...


I agree, he was one of the most impressive horses I saw today. I saw him at the very end of the course and he was just BOUNCING along like he was on springs! His energy and power at the end of such a grueling course was incredible. When he finished a HUGE cheer went up from everyone in that area. :)

Edited to add: I just remembered who this horse reminded me of today --- Darien Powers, the awesome little gray that Andrew Hoy used to ride.

Candle
Apr. 29, 2006, 09:32 PM
But as to Darren and Windfall, it was sadly predictable to see their first stop. Now the rest surprised me, but oh well.


~Emily

Howso? I was standing right in front of it and I was surprised. He jumped well when represented to the B option. I was sorry to see them retire, even though I am one to root for the TBs.

Speaking of the TB's, OMG El Primero is the cutest! He looked like he was pulling sara's arms out all the way around the course, but they got the job done! What a cute jumper :D Napalm (what a name :dead:) did a great job through the infield water.

oreo
Apr. 29, 2006, 10:49 PM
(I must add that "British TB" and "NZ TB" are often NOT full TB when one does a bit of digging.)

Absolutely, I agree, BUT the Brits, Irish, French also breed their TBs (IMHO) for bigger bone and feet, so I don't think an American TB is comparable to them. American TBs all seem very "delicate" with tea-cup feet to me;) Plus the the non-warmblood European breeders breed TBs as sport horses as well as race horses and they like the 7/8 thoroughbred plus 1/8 something "heavy, big boned and quiet" like IDH mix for eventers.....I can't speak for Aus/ NZ TBs - there seems to be a big fad for bringing them in in recent years but they don't look much different than American TBs to me....and I certainly wouldn't pay the premium to bring one in. I'd go to Ireland or England first....

And I HOPE that the last few years of worrying about expensive warmbloods taking over eventing are over. I am much encouraged that the "mostly" TB seems to be winning after what I've seen recently. There have been a lot of shakeups in stadium and XC recently, even with the WBs winning dressage. The course designers seem to be having a positive reaction to make all 3 phases count again, instead of letting Dressage determine the placings.....

Bensmom
Apr. 29, 2006, 11:20 PM
wynn is correct, Upstage is NZ TB, but he is a full TB. (Touching Wood x Golly Dore--Indian Ore -- the scary thing is that I didn't have to go here to remember that! http://www.pedigreequery.com/upstage5)

His sire is a US bred TB and his Dam is US TBxNZTB -- his bloodlines could easily be seen in a US TB -- his pedigree query page lists race results, so he is also OTTB. :D

And it has Billy listed as US TB -- he is actually AUS TB. I'm pretty sure . . .

vineyridge
Apr. 29, 2006, 11:31 PM
My money is on Polly Stockton. Followed by Andrew Hoy, Karen O'Connor and Philip Dutton, in no particular order.

Y'all remember how close she came to winning a couple of years ago? She's a beautiful rider.

adamsmom
Apr. 29, 2006, 11:43 PM
I'm pulling for Becky and Comet.
3 years ago, Becky was at River Glen with him and he was for sale for $20K, going OI.
Look at him now.


Becky and Tom are wonderful people; Becky has worked exceptionally hard to get here.....IMHO, she deserves it.





FINGERS CROSSED!!!!!!

eks
Apr. 30, 2006, 12:11 AM
I'm routing for Heidi White..she is a class act and has been so close in the past. She loves her horse more than anything too...

pharmgirl
Apr. 30, 2006, 01:10 AM
I have a question regarding Windfall's competition record (please no flames, I am honestly just curious). Someone mentioned that this horse has completed a 4*, but it actually got me thinking has he? Last year at Rolex, Windfall was spun in the 10min box (much to my dismay as I wanted to see him go xc). As far as I know, the horse hasn't crossed the pond for a 4* event. I remember that he won the modified event at Rolex in 2004, but IIRC the modified format had fewer jumping efforts xc, and was a little shorter distance (someone correct me if I am wrong here, I can't find the map from that year). I know that might be nitpicking, but I would think it could make a difference.

If that's the case, then it kind of makes me wonder if this horse can really handle this. I'm not saying that he's not an amazing horse especially because I know he's doing well at other competitions, I just wonder. It also gets me thinking about some of the ULR's comments about how the horses can recover faster from a short format event, and therefore do more competitions, doesn't eventually hurt them in the long run.

pegasusmom
Apr. 30, 2006, 04:03 AM
I'm pulling for Becky and Comet.
3 years ago, Becky was at River Glen with him and he was for sale for $20K, going OI.
Look at him now.


Becky and Tom are wonderful people; Becky has worked exceptionally hard to get here.....IMHO, she deserves it.





FINGERS CROSSED!!!!!!

I'll second this sentiment!! A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away) she took on a middle aged woman who thought she wanted to foxhunt and taught her the basics of riding AND managed to keep a straight face about the whole process. She is an exceptionally beautiful and effective rider and we are pulling for her.

Well Toto - I don't think you are in Kansas anymore!!

alterforsaftey
Apr. 30, 2006, 04:54 AM
Windfall *Pg*
1992 Brown/Black Trakehner stallion
OSB-E-S353, height 167 cm, girth 200 cm, bone 21.0 cm.
Bred by Heinz Lembke, FRG; Owned by New Spring Farm.

Windfall was imported to the US in 2001 after a distinguished career in Europe under Ingrid Klimke. Now ridden by Darren Chiacchia, his list of accomplishments continues to grow. Among the highlights of his career:

2004 Olympic Games Team Bronze Medal in Eventing
2004 Gold Medal Modified **** Rolex at Kentucky
2003 Pan American Games Individual Gold Medal in Eventing
2003 ATA Eventing Champion
2003 ATA Palmenblüte Award
2003 ATA Cäsar Memorial Cup
2003 USCTA Cäsar Cup
2003 USEA Horse of the Year 2002 ATA Cäsar Memorial Cup
2002 Trakehner Förderverein Award
2002 ATA Advanced CT Champion
2001 ATA Cäsar Memorial Cup
2001 ATA Advanced CT Reserve Champion
2000 Short-listed for Sidney Olympic Games
2000 Reiter Revue International Horse of the Year
1999 Trakehner Verband Horse of the Year

ottb dressage
Apr. 30, 2006, 10:03 AM
i'm still rooting for joshua and stephen. it's a shame FROM was withdrawn, i hope he is ok.

Hannahsmom
May. 1, 2006, 08:40 AM
Absolutely, I agree, BUT the Brits, Irish, French also breed American TBs all seem very "delicate" with tea-cup feet to me;) .....

Tell that to my KY bred TB with size three feet.

I did see Windfall's dressage test and it truly was beautiful. I saw him on XC and saw the first stop. Many other horses stopped there or had problems. He's a lovely horse with a very supportive owner so I was hoping for the best for them as for all the others. Would have liked to see him show jump that tough course.

Carried Away
May. 1, 2006, 09:05 AM
I was at the 3rd water when Windfall came through and it was just plain scary. He looked tired to me, Darren had to really fight him through the turn to the first element, got over that, then tried to make a really long distance to B (I couldn't tell if he tried to leave out a stride?) and Windfall just couldn't get his legs up over the brush. He hit the fence in the water, almost making Darren go for a swim, but for a second I thought he was going to flip. It took Darren a minute to get back in the saddle, but he still tried to trot the C element at the top of the second mound and Windfall just couldn't do it. I think he thought about circling back and making another attempt, but finally decided against it (and I'm really glad he did). It must be so hard to pull up just a few fences from home. Both horse and rider looked absolutely defeated; really sad to see :(

I am so sad that Becky had problems in SJ today, she had an absolutely fabuous dressage and XC. Comet looked like he could have skipped around a course twice as long. Becky's SJ coach is Cathy Jones Forsberg, who I have ridden with off and on for years. They had a beautiful warmup, and I think the slip after the liverpool just shook both the horse and riders' confidence. What a shame!

jilltx
May. 1, 2006, 09:40 AM
I was there as well at the "not so sexy" jumps in the lower field, BUT it allowed me a REALLY close-up look at the horses and riders over three entirely different elements, from two directions.

It was awesome! We didn't get there until later in the day, but we saw 10-15 riders go and it was incredible. Did I mention that it was AWESOME????

As far as Windfall goes...I think he was spectacular. He was calm and focused and looked right on the money when he passed us by. We heard the refusal announced (head of the lake I think?) and were disappointed.

pwynnnorman
May. 1, 2006, 09:48 AM
What caused the slip? Was it a balance issue? A terrain or track issue? What kind of studs were working or not? WAS there a definite cause, or will she be destined to puzzle over the wudda-cudda-shudda's forever? (That would be sad, too.)

asterix
May. 1, 2006, 09:49 AM
No, Windfall had a stop at the brush out of the coffin, then I think at the Hollow (? this one I don't remember), and then the trouble at the Lexington Bank. We were at the sunken road, and they BARELY made it out over the last element -- he did not look on his game at all at that point, but it was hard to tell why in that snapshot.

I have lots of ?s about other things that happened on XC , so I hope folks will fill us in as they know.
I can say that Coup de Coeur pulled BOTH front shoes before the Head of the Lake, which is probably why he was unable to keep from flipping over the first element. Pretty scary stuff.
I saw McKinleigh at the Normandy Bank and he was bleeding from his right nostril then. I also thought he looked EXTREMELY labored coming up to the combo, although he jumped it neatly enough. They pulled up at some point after that.

Bensmom
May. 1, 2006, 09:53 AM
Windfall did have a refusal at the H.O.L. He jumped in to go the direct route and couldn't get it together before the first jump and circled around to the other jumps, but it cost him a refusal.

About the only thing that us stay-at-homes can say we saw! :lol:

Libby

jilltx
May. 1, 2006, 10:08 AM
Asterix we were two jumps away from the sunken road (so not a clear shot of the sunken road and the squirrels), BUT by the time Windfall made it to us he looked fine, and when he came down the hill over the coop, and made the turn to the two tight brush jump combinations (say THAT three times fast!) he looked very relaxed and "on", as did most of the horses.

As we were walking up there was a woman rider who had a run-out at the second element of the brush box, but that was the only problem we saw.

Buck Davidson retired DIRECTLY in front of us on a bay Selle Francais He did have a problem at the sunken road (I heard it; didn't see it), then the horse looked like it was struggling a bit over the big-brush jump directly in front of us and he called it a day. Still not really sure what happened there.

InVA
May. 1, 2006, 10:09 AM
Windfall proves (again) that it is NOT a dressage show...

InVA
May. 1, 2006, 10:14 AM
OK, my money is now solidly on Karen.

Where's everyone else putting it?
NOT on Karen. I wish Becky had had a better day sunday but I'm very happy with how things ended up at rolex.

Badger
May. 1, 2006, 10:18 AM
I was sitting in the covered seating and my view of Polly's refusal in stadium was from the back, so I don't know quite what happened there. Can someone who saw it from the side describe it: was it a slipping issue?

I am really curious about that, as the rain held off until the last three horses went, and maybe it was enough moisture to change footing, but not enough time for the competitors to change the studs to something better for wetter conditions.

flypony74
May. 1, 2006, 10:26 AM
I was at the third water when Darren and Windfall retired. Windfall looked like he was having a rough go at it going into the complex (lack of impulsion), then got hung up on the brush in the water. I don't know if he was tired, or just having an "off" day. With the multiple refusals, I would guess the latter.

I also saw Mara Dean's fall at the big palisade/ditch. I was SO glad to see them hop up so quickly, because that was one of those crashes that you could HEAR from a distance. They both looked to be walking off okay (her horse was maybe a shade off at first, but seemed to walk out of it...like he stung himself good).

Hannahsmom
May. 1, 2006, 10:28 AM
I was sitting over across the way and had a pretty good view of Polly's refusal. I didn't see a slip, it just looked like the horse got there and said no. Although only the rider would know for sure. I am trying to remember if the horse got there on a 'good' stride or not and can't honestly remember. It was raining about then, maybe that was enough to make a difference in focus? Maybe umbrellas going up in the stands to distract the horse? That jump would face the uncovered stands.

flyingchange
May. 1, 2006, 10:29 AM
What was/is the footing in the SJ arena? Isn't it just a normal all-weather, sand on top of a bluestone base?

It is a relief that XC is back to playing a role in the final standings at Rolex again. SJ too.

This is just speculation but I do wonder if any of the problems had anything to do with these horses not getting a break this winter. Maybe some of them are sore from the constant running/jumping/half passing year-around and a little burned out? Seems like you would want an ultra-fresh horse for Rolex. Bonnie Mosser commented a little on this in her pre-rolex interview on her website. Seems like she made a smart decision there.

TBpalsx3
May. 1, 2006, 10:36 AM
Badger,
I read an interview with Polly and she said totally rider error. Somthing like she missed her line and just let him go at it and he missed! I will see if I can find and post the link for you.

TBpalsx3
May. 1, 2006, 10:45 AM
Badger from Horse and Hound magazine online

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/competitionnews/391/84001.html

Andrew Hoy takes Rolex Kentucky title
Nancy Jaffer in Lexington

1 May, 2006

A vintage performance across country and in the show jumping saw Andrew Hoy capitalise on his disappointing dressage score to take the top prize

A mediocre dressage test with Master Monarch was overcome by double-clears in cross-country and show jumping to bring Andrew Hoy the $65,000 first prize in the Rolex Kentucky four-star.

The final phase was a cliff-hanger after the six-time Australian Olympian easily handled the Richard Jeffery route on the last day of the event at the Kentucky Horse Park to finish on his dressage score of 53.1pen. Then he just had to wait.





The five riders ahead of him on the leaderboard all had rails, including Britain's Polly Stockton, who was standing second on Tom Quigley. She appeared set for a great round when the bay gelding slid into the third fence, a vertical of white planks designed to look like the fencing around the area's thoroughbred farms. Stockton blamed herself for the refusal.


"It was rider error," she said. "I was coming into it and I just couldn't see my stride after all and I just sort of went, 'Here you go, have it yourself' and it didn't happen. It was my fault. Then I had the last fence down."


Eight jumping penalties and five time penalties added to her dressage score of 48.2 sank Stockton to seventh place on 61.2pen and was an ending in line with other problematical British efforts at the event. Stockton was the only British rider from overseas to finish cross-country. Emma Winter, the U.S.-based wife of Canadian rider Mike Winter, also represented Britain but remained in 19th place with three knockdowns and three time penalties.


Hoy said he wasn't thinking about winning the $200,000 event until "only about one minute before the last competitor went in."


That was Becky Holder of the US, the leader after cross-country on the grey thoroughbred, Courageous Comet. But Holder, seemingly done in by the pressure, dropped four rails to finish 13th and elevate Hoy to the victory. He was the fourth foreign rider to win Rolex since it became a four-star in 1998. The achievement was particularly impressive in view of the fact that Hoy was 17th after dressage and had a long way to climb to the top.


Hoy and his mount, who was third at Badminton last year, were crowd favorites, being saluted at every opportunity with the cry of "Aussie, Aussie, Aussie; Hoy, Hoy, Hoy" that was so popular at the Sydney Olympics. Hoy, in turn, waved to the crowd and at one point even bowed low to them in appreciation of their cheers.


The highest-placed U.S. rider was Heidi White, a student of U.S.-based Australian Phillip Dutton, who finished second on Northern Spy with 57.4pen after two knockdowns.


A total of 90,748 people attended Rolex this year, up from 76,000 in 2005. The figure is expected to grow even more in the wake of the Kentucky Horse Park's successful bid to host the 2010 FEI Games.

Badger
May. 1, 2006, 11:00 AM
Thanks for posting that. It sure was a nail-biter of a finish. I hadn't quite realized that Hoy moved up all the way from 17th to win on his dressage score by jumping clean. It's definitely not a dressage show!

Miss Maddie
May. 1, 2006, 11:02 AM
Speaking of rider interviews, I thought it was ironic that Stephen Bradley was saying how some of the younger riders were just not experienced enough to nurse their tired horses through show jumping, yet he didn't secure his pinney very well and when I saw him on the webcast it was literally flapping up over his face obscuring his vision. He was very lucky that it didn't end up causing him a problem, I would think that experienced riders would use double knots. :eek: He had a fabulous round though, I do not mean to criticize him, just seems like one of those things you learn at a very early age in eventing so it was kinda funny to read his comments. There are some interesting pictures of him with that pinney flying up around his face.

If he had actually lost the pinney, would he have been eliminated? I can't imagine how distracting that would be for him. Amazing how those top riders just carry on. Perhaps that was where his experience helped him the most! :D

Glimmerglass
May. 1, 2006, 11:17 AM
I was at the third water when Darren and Windfall retired. Windfall looked like he was having a rough go at it going into the complex (lack of impulsion), then got hung up on the brush in the water. I don't know if he was tired, or just having an "off" day. With the multiple refusals, I would guess the latter.

I have to admit I took a brilliant series of pics of Darren and Windfall going in and getting hung up. With one of the shots you can clearly see one front leg fully extended ahead of the brush and the other front leg fully extended behind. Frankly it was very nasty and I can see why at that point going up the bank without issue wasn't going to happen.

fergie
May. 1, 2006, 11:41 AM
Perhaps the new format as taxing as the one at Rolex once again doesn't sit well the "condition "of any horse, ESPECIALLY a warmblood, even Windfall! In the past, Darren's Trakehners would do well at horse trials but could never deal with the the endurance required at a three day. (Does no one else know or remember this, I'm not THAT old....??) So this horse's fatigue at Rolex doesn't suprise me at all and I'm actually surprised that Windfall could make it all the way through ANY three day in the past, looking at Darren's Trakehners' track records. I think that Darren's conditioning program was fine, he knows what it takes to get a horse three day fit, but I think that eventing just ISN'T a sport for warmbloods!!!!

Jazzy Lady
May. 1, 2006, 11:56 AM
Did you happen to hear that 2 years ago at Rolex Windfall won best conditioned horse? Darren has had TB's at the upper levels also in the past, so I wouldn't judge too hard on the warmbloods in the upper levels. Trekheners have a whole lot of TB in them... horses are like people, some have on days and off days.

I think with the short format at the **** being a new question to be asked of these competitors, too much speculation is going on about the sport itself. I think there needs to be more of a track record at the **** short format before too many assumptions are made.

I'm quite interested to see how Badminton plays off in the short format. I think you'll find that maybe the sport doesn't belong to warmbloods and it doesn't belong to the straight TB either? Who knows? Regardless, it was nice to see a **** go down without any serious injuries.

olympicprincess
May. 1, 2006, 12:08 PM
I was at the 3rd water when Windfall came through and it was just plain scary. He looked tired to me, Darren had to really fight him through the turn to the first element, got over that, then tried to make a really long distance to B (I couldn't tell if he tried to leave out a stride?) and Windfall just couldn't get his legs up over the brush. He hit the fence in the water, almost making Darren go for a swim, but for a second I thought he was going to flip. It took Darren a minute to get back in the saddle, but he still tried to trot the C element at the top of the second mound and Windfall just couldn't do it. I think he thought about circling back and making another attempt, but finally decided against it (and I'm really glad he did). It must be so hard to pull up just a few fences from home. Both horse and rider looked absolutely defeated; really sad to see :(
I was there too- right next to the B element. I agree- looked tired. I also was thinking a flip/fall may happen. Saw him warm-up, start, refusal at 8, over the wagon and then the water jump when he retired So sad. Was rooting for them. We also talked to him Friday after his dressage ride (GORGEOUS ride!) and on the XC walk on Friday and later on Satuday we caught up w/ him and he signed our shirts
(yep, we stalked Darren this weekend! :o :lol:).

We were rooting for everyone, but one with bad sportmanship! (too bad my two junior students had to witness that up close :no:)


and I think the slip after the liverpool just shook both the horse and riders' confidence.
Which jump had the liverpool? Couldn't see from my seat.

fergie
May. 1, 2006, 12:11 PM
I don't think we can afford to have a "track record" for the four star short format - there will be too much carnage to the horses before we will realize it doesn't work, and it will be too late..... Mostly, the old school riders with the traditional three day experience are the ones fighting the change because they realize what it is taking out of the horses. I think the sport "belonged" to the horses, whether TB or WB, and now it's more and more belonging only to the people. It was only luck that there were no serious injuries judging from the fatigue of the horses.

adamsmom
May. 1, 2006, 12:46 PM
[quote=flyingchange]What was/is the footing in the SJ arena? Isn't it just a normal all-weather, sand on top of a bluestone base?
quote]

they were just finishing installing it last weekend. IIRC, it's polymerized sand and maybe a bit of silicone as well. It's the same thing that's in the Claiborne ring up by the barns. Very nice stuff.

Comet slipped, I think, because his hind foot hit the ground awkwardly after taking that rail and he couldn't quite get his hind end situated, thus slipping.

Lily5453
May. 1, 2006, 02:34 PM
but I think that eventing just ISN'T a sport for warmbloods!!!!


I disagree completely and I think we will find that in the future most eventers will actually be 1/2 or more warmblood as the dressage and show jumping will require it to be successful. Its just WHICH KIND of warmblood is it going to be?

Perfect Pony
May. 1, 2006, 02:41 PM
I disagree completely and I think we will find that in the future most eventers will actually be 1/2 or more warmblood as the dressage and show jumping will require it to be successful. Its just WHICH KIND of warmblood is it going to be?

I totally disagree. They may be half warmblood, but that half will actually be 1/2 or 7/8th TB in the pedigree.

There is even a real push for more blood in the jumpers. I think many of the great jumpers out there right now are 3/4 to 7/8th TB. Look at horse like Authentic. Those IMHO are the horses of the future.

jilltx
May. 1, 2006, 03:02 PM
It really surprises me to see so much breed biggotry here on the EVENTING forum.

I thought you people were immune! :no:

hb
May. 1, 2006, 03:35 PM
We were rooting for everyone, but one with bad sportmanship! (too bad my two junior students had to witness that up close :no:)

What happened? (not asking who, just what)

fergie
May. 1, 2006, 03:50 PM
Ughh, to take a dumblood (full dumblood) around an advanced X-country course - no thanks!!!

fergie
May. 1, 2006, 03:51 PM
Jimmy Wofford thinks that it will be a TB who MOVES like a warmblood, and Bruce SO loves dumbloods.....!

saratoga
May. 1, 2006, 04:01 PM
I don't think we can afford to have a "track record" for the four star short format - there will be too much carnage to the horses before we will realize it doesn't work, and it will be too late..... It was only luck that there were no serious injuries judging from the fatigue of the horses.

OK- a dumb question that has probably been answered before- why are horses more "fatigued" in the short format? I can understand the steeplechase portions being a warm-up, getting their minds and bodies into the jumping groove, but how is there more *fatigue* now? Assuming they are being properly conditioned the same as before?

fergie
May. 1, 2006, 04:08 PM
In the short format, they are constantly going really fast and then slowing way down. They don't ever get to get into a rhythm in a gallop where their bodies can "recover". It is always more economical on bodies (horse and human) to be able to stay in a more constant rhythm and work out of that ryhthm instead of constantly speeding up and slowing down.

Ja Da Dee
May. 1, 2006, 04:11 PM
It really surprises me to see so much breed biggotry here on the EVENTING forum.

I thought you people were immune! :no:
I agree, it's very sad that people feel the need to degregate entire breeds of horses to try to make their point.

very sad, and not at all in the spirit of 99% of the Eventers I know

One Star
May. 1, 2006, 04:17 PM
What was all of that about the "horses and riders of today" (meaning in the so-called "modern" era of dressage being the main focus of eventing) being better than the "horses and riders of yesterday"? Left standing are the hard-knockers, the mostly Thoroughbreds, and a whole lot of veterans.

Just saying, is all.

Darren's horse looked like he was jumping fantastically well, but didn't have enough impulsion and will to find his way out of a tough combination. Overtrained? I have no idea, but it did make me wonder if all the emphasis on dressage and submission has left some of these horses lacking the "attack" mode that's required for a tough **** course.

DW, I said *EXACTLY* the same things this morning to the two girls that I tutor who ride with Darren.

Makes you wonder.

AppJumpr08
May. 1, 2006, 04:42 PM
I didn't take it as dismissing or dissing an entire breed... WBs are generally very good at dressage and showjumping, and *some* can gallop xc... but due to their generally heavier builds, pure WBs do seem to have a harder time with the galloping required to go xc. (High Scope, for instance... he was a big, heavy horse, and though he did gallop xc, it was harder on him and his joints then it would've been for a lighter built horse).
I don't think it's so much tearing down an entire group of breeds as a general observation... :)


I am a TB person myself, and as long as I have a TB that can showjump and do dressage like a WB (which I do :)) I'm a happy camper. :D



I agree, it's very sad that people feel the need to degregate entire breeds of horses to try to make their point.

very sad, and not at all in the spirit of 99% of the Eventers I know

bornfreenowexpensive
May. 1, 2006, 04:44 PM
It really surprises me to see so much breed biggotry here on the EVENTING forum.

I thought you people were immune! :no:

whoa...I'm not sure what people mean by breed biggotry if someone makes a generalization about what general breeding of the top horses in the eventing will be. Our sport...like endurance requires certain characteristics in a horse. Just as Arabians dominate the upper levels of endurance...TBs have and I believe will continue to dominate eventing. Yes you will see exceptions to the rule and each horse should be judged as an individual but to say that to complete and do well at the *** or **** level a horse will need to have a lot of blood....isn't breed bias or saying anything new.

I think that the upper level horses will need to continue to have a lot of TB (or warmbloods with lots of blood--typically TB but also sometimes Arabian) but you will see more and more TBs that are sport bred and not race bred although I'm sure that you will still see some nice OTTBs succeeding.

This doesn't mean that a horse of any other breed will not do well in eventing at the lower levels....we are talking *** and **** horses. I have a cute quarter horse who will kick ass at novice/training and is an absolute blast to ride...more fun than my TBs to be honest but will he be a good CCI* horse...no probably not. He's an old style cow breed QH--no TB in his pedigree. He would have trouble making time..he's just not built to gallop for that long at that speed and it wouldn't be fair to ask him but he's still a very nice horse.

jilltx
May. 1, 2006, 05:10 PM
Some of the previous posts were pretty derogatory against Windfall and mostly oriented to him being a warmblood and a "dressage" horse.

Personally, I think there are some people who are pretty POed with the change in format and they see it as a "dumbing down" of eventing to favor the WB breeds. I don't know, but it seems to me that the mantra of eventers in the past has been, "if the horse makes it over the fence and does it's job, it's a good horse REGARDLESS of the breed". It's one of the main reasons that I love Eventing and the people that pursue the sport.

I found it odd to come here and read really derogatory comments (although not all were, by and large) about a horse that seemed to focus more on his breed than his ability.

You'll get no argument from me about the format; I think the short format is a mistake, but only time will tell the tale I suppose. Ditto horses having mostly TB blood (or ALL TB blood!) to compete at the top levels of eventing. I also agree!

That's all I was saying. :)

Xctrygirl
May. 1, 2006, 05:50 PM
What was all of that about the "horses and riders of today" (meaning in the so-called "modern" era of dressage being the main focus of eventing) being better than the "horses and riders of yesterday"? Left standing are the hard-knockers, the mostly Thoroughbreds, and a whole lot of veterans.


Ok now whoa back Dw. My thread was titled,

"The great eventers of 'then' succumb (in dressage) to the great eventers 'now' "

But within that thread was a question about how much of a divide we think there is IN DRESSAGE , and why. I didn't discuss the jumping phases at all. Nor did I speculate over who would win the whole shebang. I only discussed the dressage phase.

I in no way suggested that the "newer" 4 star riders are better than the elders. Quite the contrary if you ask me what I think.

I believed as I wrote my original post that we would see a big upset this weekend. But I wanted to put out a thought provoking topic. Thats all.

~Emily

bornfreenowexpensive
May. 1, 2006, 06:05 PM
Some of the previous posts were pretty derogatory against Windfall and mostly oriented to him being a warmblood and a "dressage" horse.

I found it odd to come here and read really derogatory comments (although not all were, by and large) about a horse that seemed to focus more on his breed than his ability.

That's all I was saying. :)

gotcha....and it is odd too considering that Windfall has a lot of blood in his pedigree. He's out of a TB mare and has Shagya on the sire side. While I love TBs (and always will)--he is the type of warmblood bred for eventing--long or short format (as I don't think the breeding is any different).

I haven't seen him in person so I have no real opinion of him but by his list of accomplishments both current and before he came to the US...he is a very nice horse even if he never completes another ****.

But people have strong opinions of some horses and I've seen it against TBs as well....take Babamist--TB sire. His breeding has produced some wonderful top event horses and you can generally pick them out of any warm up (he has really stamped his decendents)--some people love 'em and others run screaming the other direction. It's just a person's opinion.

deltawave
May. 1, 2006, 06:18 PM
I wasn't looking to pick a fight or keep going on with the original intent of your thread, XCG...just used that thread title as a springboard for further discussion. :D

Xctrygirl
May. 1, 2006, 06:24 PM
Ok. On first read it sounded a bit like a slam.

But I'll go with the springboard idea. God knows I am all for good discussions!!
;)

~Emily

jilltx
May. 1, 2006, 06:43 PM
is that **I am the one on the breeding forums playing devil's advocate and touting the TB's on the breeding forum...and now the tables seem to be reversed!! :lol:

I did see him at Rolex and while my spot wasn't where he retired (I was at fences 14 and 16 a,b,c when he came by), he looked REALLY on his game when he passed me by. I was impressed (and I am NOT by definition a "WB" person). :yes:

Did I mention that it was TOTALLY cool to be there?? :D

hijumpin1
May. 1, 2006, 08:03 PM
Hmmm, it is interesting to read this thread. I have always understood the Trakehner to be a breed, not a warmblood. The stud book dates back to the 1700's, one of Europe's oldest established breeds. The breed has been open only to Arabians and TB's, and as such, has always been a riding horse. Indeed, they are quite popular as refining sires in Europe. Not a mere carriage, or draft animal, but a mount for the Prussian cavalry officer. The military is the original three-day!:cool:
Trakehners are in fact flat raced and steeplechased in Russia and central Europe. The Pardubice steeple (second only to the Grand National) in Czechoslavkia has been won several times by Trakehners.
There have been many Traks in eventing...does anybody recall that Sue Williams evented Abdullah before his show-jumping career? It's funny to me to read the comments here about a Trak being too WB, whereas on the H/J forum I catch flak that they are not WB enough. Go figure!

NRB
May. 1, 2006, 08:59 PM
My very limited understanding of the Trakaner breed has just been posted. I thought that it was NOT an open registry like all of the "other" warmblood registries. In other words it is a breed, the warmbloods are registries. And that Traks have a registry open to certain Arab and TB horses.

I did watch Darren at the first water fence 7 and fence 8-9 Uncle Frani's birch, ditch, brush. He was really sticky going into the first birch and just looked like a horse that wasn't going to make it around that day.

3 day eventing is supposed to be tough, it is hard to train a horse to excell is ALL 3 Phases. It's ment to be a challenge.

Hey what about Volturno eh?

VOLTURNO
1968-1988

16.3 hh black bay Oldenburg stallion

Competed in 27 international horse trials, 23 were advanced, 20 times he was 1st, 2nd, or 3rd
1978 and 1980 German eventing champion
Two Olympic Silver Medals (1976 Montreal, 1980 France)
Silver medal at World Three-Day Event Championships (1978 Lexington)

Owned, raised, and ridden his entire life by Otto Ammermann.
In 1988, exported to the US for breeding where he was attacked and killed at the quarantine station.
With permission, he was buried on the Rolex cross country course in the Kentucky Horse Park.

deltawave
May. 1, 2006, 09:15 PM
As others have said, when one is talking "warmbloods" in general there can be a LOT of TB blood. That goes for all of the "types", not so much for the Trakehner "breed" as I understand it.

And doing many, many Advanced Horse Trials successfully is NOT the same thing as being a successful 3 Day Event horse.

Tasker
May. 2, 2006, 08:25 AM
Well, if you break the pedigree of Volturno down...he was 3/4 TB by blood. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/volturno4

Windfall is 1/2 TB with 1/4 AA thrown in + 1/4 Trakehner. In warmblood breeding, it is common to treat Trakehner as TB when trying to 'lighten up' a heavy mare/stallion...FWIW anyway. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/windfall4

olympicprincess
May. 2, 2006, 09:47 AM
What happened? (not asking who, just what)
This rider had a bad dressage ride (rider fault) and came out looking furious (I understand that- I've been mad at myself numerous times), leapt off the horse as soon as he left the stadium while it was still walking and continued to walk the other way- all before the groom was able to run up and grab the reins. He never turned to see if the groom had the horse or anything, just walked off to stabling. :no: (I know that they have and need grooms, but many riders seem to really care about their horses and most likely wouldn't do that?)
For the horse's sake it was probably better that the groom had to care for it afterwards than the rider.

He had a much better XC ride and was all smiles and pats for his horse afterwards. He stayed with his horse and kept saying great things about it. Fair weather rider. :sigh:

Lily5453
May. 2, 2006, 09:53 AM
As others have said, when one is talking "warmbloods" in general there can be a LOT of TB blood. That goes for all of the "types", not so much for the Trakehner "breed" as I understand it.

.


yup yup!!! a 100% TB can be given a "warmblood" brand. That is why I said in my post "it is a question as to what TYPE of warmblood" that will be used... holsteiners and Trakehners typically have more "blood" in them then, say, hannoverians.

bigdreamer
May. 2, 2006, 10:15 AM
I have a trakehner, and if it wasn't for the brand on his butt, I'd think him a TB. (esp. when he bolts!) same with everyone else that asks me- is he a TB? ;) He's just got a little more stock to his legs, which I'll take any day ;) And yup, they are their own breed. I got so confused about all the WB/breed stuff last year that I spent forever figuring it out... still don't know even half of it though!

I also must say, I haven't seen many TB's that move like my guy. He's not SPECTACULAR, but he's pretty lofty when he wants to be. I'm sure there are plenty of TBs with nice movement- but those are at the top of the TB movement "foodchain", while my guys isn't so high up in the trak world. Though then again, most of the TB's I see are ottb, and those are not bred to do what we do (though we often get lucky ;) but i'm talking about the ones you see whose front end looks like it belongs to a pony and the hind end belongs to a WB). I'm sure the ones that are bred by sport horse breeders are quite nice. :yes:


With the horses needing speed b/t jumps like they do now, I agree TB blood is going to be even more important. 3/4-7/8 TB's will probably still dominate the eventing world for speed and a more sane brain. At least we can sweep away the thought that "the germans want their WB's to take over" from last year :lol:

SandyUHC
May. 2, 2006, 11:06 AM
Fergie, your story doesn't surprise me, tres snarkee garcon. Darren says Becky is too fat to ride. My prediction for next year: Darren will wear a hat for the trot-up.

magnolia73
May. 2, 2006, 11:28 AM
Darren says Becky is too fat to ride.

WTF does he think he is? George Morris?

BAC
May. 2, 2006, 11:35 AM
Fergie, your story doesn't surprise me, tres snarkee garcon. Darren says Becky is too fat to ride. My prediction for next year: Darren will wear a hat for the trot-up.

Well she wasn't too fat to get around the ENTIRE cross country course, unlike some others. And unless he is her trainer, then her weight is none of his business.

flutie1
May. 2, 2006, 12:54 PM
AND Becky wouldn't be caught dead doing creepy photo ads. She's WAY too classy!

Flutie

SandyUHC
May. 2, 2006, 01:10 PM
AND Flutie would know, being IN the know and tres classy herself.

(I haven't looked at said ad yet, frankly I'm a tad askeered to.)

BAC
May. 2, 2006, 01:13 PM
AND Flutie would know, being IN the know and tres classy herself.

(I haven't looked at said ad yet, frankly I'm a tad askeered to.)

Its not even an especially flattering photo IMO, I found it to be a strange ad or am I just not sophisticaed enough to appreciate it? :winkgrin:

Ja Da Dee
May. 2, 2006, 01:18 PM
What the heck is this ad that everyone is talking about? I'm soooo out of the loop.

deltawave
May. 2, 2006, 01:20 PM
Darren Cha-Cha did some ads for Ultium that show his face in HUUUGE close up all pouty-lipped and frankly frightening! :lol: You look at in and go AAAAAHHH! Somehow makes me not want to go out and buy Ultium, you know? :lol:

BBowen
May. 2, 2006, 01:20 PM
Becky Holder put in a wonderful dressage test and she and Courageous Comet looked like total balance in motion going cross country. I think the slip they took in stadium had an affect on their round. She finished. Darren did not. What a truly awful thing to say about someone and I am sure she did not ask for his critique, unlike those that send in their photos to George Morris. Some things are just better left unsaid.

Yes, the ads are someone's idea of equestrian cheesecake. It ain't workin'!!!

hb
May. 2, 2006, 01:29 PM
The thing that bothers me the second most about the ad, after the creepiness factor, is that Ultium is for the HORSE, and yet they only show a picture of a RIDER.

I don't like it when the star becomes just the rider. Not to downplay the role the riders and trainers have in prepping the horse, but it is a team effort out there on course, the horse and rider together. Neither could do it without the other.

Darren fans, I know he probably didn't plan the ad etc., this is not a knock on him, just on the tendancy to look at riders as stars. I just don't see it that way, it's not an individual effort, it's the team of the horse and rider.

Badger
May. 2, 2006, 01:34 PM
I agree, BB. And will add that some things are better left unposted.

With that nasty slip, and having to come to a full halt just a few strides out from one of the most difficult lines on the course, I think there is a real chance Comet would have finished within time with 2-3 rails at most. Putting them first or second. What a costly slip. We'll never know what wouldacouldashoulda.

Remember last year the rider who had the whistle blow to close the course as she was already committed to the next fence...too late to pull out...and got eliminated for jumping it. This is a tough sport, and luck, bad and good, have something to do with it.

InVA
May. 2, 2006, 01:57 PM
Its a GREAT picture - if you like looking at a close up of a person's PORES, that is!!!

BAC
May. 2, 2006, 02:17 PM
Its a GREAT picture - if you like looking at a close up of a person's PORES, that is!!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I couldn't even remember what the product was that he is advertising until someone just posted it.

Green Bean Machine
May. 2, 2006, 02:39 PM
Where is this ad?

SuperSpike
May. 2, 2006, 02:47 PM
My non-horsey SO was flipping through the program at Rolex and suddenly let out a little "ahh!" He turned the page and there IT was again...SO: "it just won't go away!"

Definitely creepy. But who knows, Darren may think it's horrendous, as well.

SuperSpike
May. 2, 2006, 02:51 PM
Another question: did someone definitely hear Darren say that Becky was too fat to ride?

flutie1
May. 2, 2006, 02:51 PM
AND Flutie would know, being IN the know and tres classy herself.

(I haven't looked at said ad yet, frankly I'm a tad askeered to.)

Wow, I'm flattered. Can't remember the last time I've been called classy. Mouthy, opinionated - often!

Thanks.

Flutie

EventerAJ
May. 2, 2006, 02:51 PM
My non-horsey SO was flipping through the program at Rolex and suddenly let out a little "ahh!" He turned the page and there IT was again...SO: "it just won't go away!"

Definitely creepy. But who knows, Darren may think it's horrendous, as well.

Oh Spike I know!! I got nightmares from the *single* ad in the Rolex COTH issue... then in the Rolex program, it's on THREE CONSECUTIVE PAGES. You turn the page in horror...and there it is again! Quickturnthepage and-- AGAIN! Aaaah! Is it really necessary to see him in his (faded) top hat, xc hat, and then sj hat??

No Purina for me, that's for sure. A friend commented that he looks like Jack the Ripper. :eek:

Badger
May. 2, 2006, 02:55 PM
Every time I see the ad it reminds me of the movie poster for Clockwork Orange. Probably not the image Purina was going for. :eek:

limitedscope
May. 2, 2006, 03:09 PM
Two things:

Part of the point of advertising is getting people talking. In Kentucky everyone was talking about this. You can't miss these ads. Whether or not it makes you buy Purina is irrelevant- Purina has already accomplished something by the fact that this is being so enthusiastcally discussed.
Darren was embarressed by the fact that they ran all three in the program. He is relatively good natured though and everyone had a good hard laugh about this in Kentucky. My personal feelings on Darren are pretty ambivalent, but for all the people who say they cannot stand him, have no respect for him, etc. there certainly is a lot of time being devoted to him on this forum.
My bottom line is this:
The horse was amazing at the Fork (and at Red Hills).
He did one of the best dressage tests I've ever seen at a Four Star (Bettina's had some good ones) this weekend and the horse didn't want to play on the cross country. He's got a good record though (he's won a three star, a four star, been second at a three star and a team medalist at the Olympics) and if he goes well at Jersey Fresh and trots up sound, he's going to the WEG- possibly as an individual- but he'll get a shot.

GotSpots
May. 2, 2006, 03:14 PM
He's got a good record though (he's won a three star, a four star, been second at a three star and a team medalist at the Olympics) and if he goes well at Jersey Fresh and trots up sound, he's going to the WEG- possibly as an individual- but he'll get a shot. I find it disturbing to think that Windfall, or any of the Rolex horses, will be running at Jersey Fresh.

BBowen
May. 2, 2006, 03:17 PM
I'm with you, GotSpots!!!!

limitedscope
May. 2, 2006, 03:20 PM
He won't be the only one. Welcome to a new era.

JER
May. 2, 2006, 03:25 PM
While I agree about the Purina ads -- I'll take a pass on the Chiacchia Chow -- I think we should give the hard-working stallion Windfall a break.

Stallions are very few and very far between at ALL of the CCI levels, not just at the ***/**** level. Stallions are not geldings or even mares; they're easily, naturally distracted and also tend to worry more than non-testicled horses. It can't be easy to ride one through the varied phases of a HT let alone campaign for a CCI.

I think it's great that Windfall has chalked up a lot of miles at the CCI***/****s and is available to US breeders. Hopefully, his accomplishments will convince other stallion owners that eventing can be a good showcase for their horse's talents.

persefne
May. 2, 2006, 03:26 PM
...and if he goes well at Jersey Fresh and trots up sound, he's going to the WEG- possibly as an individual- but he'll get a shot.

How could this be? How could anyone really run their horse both places, even if they didn't finish the entire xc at Rolex? That just does not seem right. Is that really what the selectors are asking for/expecting...a "second chance" to make up for any problems that they experience at Rolex (and, sorry, but for Windfall and Darren, I wouldn't consider their xc round in Kentucky just "any problems")?

limitedscope: sadly, you may be right (about this being a "new era").

InVA
May. 2, 2006, 03:30 PM
Because rolex is now a pretend Three day event without the Roads & Tracks and steeplechase, lots of riders think that when a horse doesn't finish XC... that he hasn't really had his gallop or workout so they feel justified in doing another " pretend three day" a month later. (is Jersey fresh a real or pretend three day?) would I do it? I don't know - it depends on many things. the horse, the reason why? (to qualify) what the owner wants, what the team wants.
These riders have lots of pressures on them from "above" - most mortals have no idea. Few people have the balls to turn their back on "the TEAM.."

BAC
May. 2, 2006, 03:33 PM
He won't be the only one. Welcome to a new era.

And this is supposed to be better for the horses than the long format ****? Too bad the horses don't get to vote on this.

jilltx
May. 2, 2006, 03:39 PM
Well I just did the flip-through of my program and sure enough, there it is! I had never even noticed that it was an add for Ultium, honestly. I thought it was a TV spot or some such thing for the Sopranos. :p

I don't get the full-frontal game-face thing for selling HORSE feed, but, clearly someone thought they had a good add campaign idea, and Purina agreed. I still find it FAR better than the Rambo (or Rhino??) blanket adds with the shirtless bo-hunk. Nice eye candy, but really, what ARE they trying to sell with that add??

Robby Johnson
May. 2, 2006, 04:21 PM
While Windfall II did seem to be having problems at Rolex, I am not sure this is really any different than running a horse through a Spring season and alternating between CIC and HT's. Yes, Rolex was the fastest and longest he's likely gone so far, but there are three weeks of recovery, and Jersey will be shorter and, assumably, slower.

I think the biggest problem with the horses going from three-day to three-day is the fact that they're kept at a peak level of fitness for too long. I think horses need to be prepared to peak, then let down an appropriate amount of time (just like any other athlete). When you stay at peak and keep performing you really run the risk of injury.

I would personally NOT do this with my own horse (attempt two maximum tracks in one season) but I am not sure I think a horse will suddenly turn to dust just because someone else decides to try.

I agree with JER regarding the stallion aspect of things, and I will say that I was watching at the Head of the Lake, and that was just downright unfortunate. Darren did a good job of riding him into the water. In fact, a little too good as he rode past his line and had no option. The horse never put up a fuss and, when his option was presented to him, was actually quite game to go.

As far as the ads are concerned, I am professionally of the believe that advertising is a dead medium anyway. Ads don't sell products. People sell products - either directly or indirectly. Ads, in essence, are more about supporting the brand and influencing its perception.

There's a fine line to walk but I'll tell you, if I were the ad execs on the Ultium account - as well as Purina - I'd be more alarmed than elated at the reaction to the campaign. Ad campaigns get pulled daily as soon as it seems they're more offensive than inspiring.

Robby

emartell93
May. 2, 2006, 06:00 PM
I've been reading this thread but haven't posted as I've never seen the horse go in person. Never met Darren and therefore have nothing to offer to the chat but...

A friend of mine was at Rolex and saw the pair go 'round XC.. she said she noticed that Windfall was NOT moving off of Darrens leg. He put the leg on and the horse didn't respond. Is this an accurate representation of the horse? Or at least his go? Or, was the horse just having a bad day?

We all have bad days, horses certainly are allowed!!

My horse does not move off of my leg (we've been working on it for a while now and SLOWLY it's getting better). I do know she'll jump anything in front of her and she has no interest in stopping. I also know she will never see as much as a Prelim course. Having said that, I couldn't imagine going XC on a horse that didn't move off the leg so, I just HAD to ask!!

bornfreenowexpensive
May. 2, 2006, 06:57 PM
A friend of mine was at Rolex and saw the pair go 'round XC.. she said she noticed that Windfall was NOT moving off of Darrens leg. He put the leg on and the horse didn't respond. Is this an accurate representation of the horse? Or at least his go? Or, was the horse just having a bad day?




That often is a stallion thing. I would suspect that he was having a bad day and/or tired. To get the score that they did in dressage (and to be at Rolex)....that horse moves off his leg and is very well schooled. But often not moving off the leg is an evasion of a stallion.....as well as many many many other horses (horsey language...I can't hear you!!!). It is also not an unusual thing at a 3-day as a horse gets tired...the rider will ask the horse to go and there is nothing there....even on a horse that is typically very goey...that's where the rider's horsemanship skills need to kick in and decide if they can/should nurse them home or if they should pull up.

Janeway
May. 2, 2006, 07:07 PM
I don't suppose someone has time to scan in the ad that you are all talking about?

I admit I've become rather curious to see it after the, shall I say "interesting", comments posted about it.

If it weren't so freaking expensive to get to Kentucky from here, I'd be down there in a flash to see and experience Rolex live. As it is, its cheaper to fly to England!

bigdreamer
May. 2, 2006, 07:59 PM
getting down to the nitty gritty, i have to say overall Windfall is a fantastic event horse. I mean, look at what he's asked to do- and he does it! During breeding season, too! When he's on, he's on. He's got a rigerous competition schedule, that decision is not made by him. He's got fantastic movement, and an incredible jump when he is "on". I don't know what makes him tick, i don't know why he has off days, and neither do any of us. All we can do is speculate. That horse has done well in competitions that I can only DREAM of competing in, and whether he makes it around all of them, or just one- that makes him one of a kind.

i just feel like this thread is getting kind of nasty and doesn't belong on a public BB... but that is just me.

fergie
May. 2, 2006, 08:16 PM
SandyUHC,
You are cracking me up with that top hat comment! See what I mean??? That "fat" comment he made about Becky - that is typical of him. I used to love to watch Bruce scream at him in his lessons! All I can say is, "what goes around comes around"!!!!

Judi
May. 2, 2006, 09:03 PM
SandyUHC,
You are cracking me up with that top hat comment! See what I mean??? That "fat" comment he made about Becky - that is typical of him. I used to love to watch Bruce scream at him in his lessons! All I can say is, "what goes around comes around"!!!!

Okay fergie. I don't know Darren except to appreciate what he has accomplished. I'm sure you are very bitter and angry at how you feel you've been treated by him.

But I must say you have now lowered yourself to the same "sniping" level you accuse him of... When you do that you discredit yourself... as you've just proven you are capable of the same viciousness you accuse him of. And you've now been vicious in print for all to read...

As for the fat comment. I would never post that on a board for Becky's sake alone. You are not doing her any kind of favor by posting that here. If I were her I would certainly hope you wouldn't come on these boards and defend me like this by stating to hundreds of readers that Darren had called me fat. It's just not neccesary... really.

Honestly ladies... please... take this type of mean sniping over to the other boards. It doesn't belong here.

Ick!

adamsmom
May. 2, 2006, 09:59 PM
How could this be? How could anyone really run their horse both places, even if they didn't finish the entire xc at Rolex? That just does not seem right. Is that really what the selectors are asking for/expecting...a "second chance" to make up for any problems that they experience at Rolex (and, sorry, but for Windfall and Darren, I wouldn't consider their xc round in Kentucky just "any problems")?

limitedscope: sadly, you may be right (about this being a "new era").

Often, in the past when a three-day was a "real" three-day, if horses/riders did not get round one three-day, they would attempt another, lower or perhaps, same, level a few weeks later.
This often happened, even if the horse completed half of the cross-country phase.
IMHO, Darren, or anyone else, would be doing no worse nor better than any of his predecessors.

Gnep
May. 2, 2006, 10:01 PM
Deltawave,
I have seen volturno live and remember him very well. that horse did go 3D at a time when they were realy monsters. I myself rode in the 70 upperlevel stuff and we used the dreaded warmbloods and trakehners. They were unusual tough horses, had to be, look up how long the courses were, steepelchase, road and track and x-c. They sucked in dressage, dressage was a war zone where the judges alway sat at least 40 feet away, they wanted to survive.
The Trak was bred for Eventing and the eventing Traks are very difficult horses, moody unbeleavable. If you talk to darren or maybe Richard Rader they probably could verify that. But when they are in the mood, good mood, they are brilliant.
I got a Trak, out of Richards Cestus, bred her myself and I am at the present relearning those lessons, dressage is a war zone, stadium is geting there and X-C is just stunning.

One observation made by Mrs Klimke and published in the USDA Magazine, she considers the muscle built that is produced through the super high collection in Dressage a problem for the work in X-C, which hinder a horse in its galloping. I thought that an interesting observation, since she is not only one of Europs best Eventer but a very acomplished Grand Prix Dressage Rider.

Maybe the short format and the requierments of the dressage are creating a conflict.

bigdreamer
May. 2, 2006, 10:05 PM
Deltawave,
One observation made by Mrs Klimke and published in the USDA Magazine, she considers the muscle built that is produced through the super high collection in Dressage a problem for the work in X-C, which hinder a horse in its galloping. I thought that an interesting observation, since she is not only one of Europs best Eventer but a very acomplished Grand Prix Dressage Rider.

Maybe the short format and the requierments of the dressage are creating a conflict.

dressage is like body building, galloping is like long distance running. being good at both is very difficult. it'd be like a sprinter trying to run a 5K. they need to find the middle ground...

adamsmom
May. 2, 2006, 10:07 PM
I got a Trak, out of Richards Cestus, bred her myself and I am at the present relearning those lessons, dressage is a war zone, stadium is geting there and X-C is just stunning.

I think Richard would concur that those traits come from Cestus. An amazing little machine across country!!
Dressage, however....another story entirely.
;)

I'll have to admit to not being a Trak fan (except for Cestus, and sometimes, Windfall) based on my personal experience. :lol:

IfWishesWereHorses
May. 2, 2006, 10:12 PM
(I must add that "British TB" and "NZ TB" are often NOT full TB when one does a bit of digging.)

I don't know what the heck you mean by this about NZTB's, but if they are branded on the shoulders, they are full NZ TB's and will be registered with the NZTBA. Unbranded TBs are very few and far between down here.

deltawave
May. 2, 2006, 10:17 PM
I meant to imply, actually, that the term "thoroughbred" in general, ESPECIALLY in the eventing world, does not NECESSARILY mean that the horse is a purebred Thoroughbred (capital "T"). Cases in point: Winsome Adante--NOT a pure TB, but usually listed as such in the Rolex program, COTH preview issue, etc. Giltedge: usually was listed as "Irish TB" when he most definitely is NOT a pure Thoroughbred. Westfarthing (I only just realized this) is not a pure Thoroughbred but is listed as "British-bred TB" in the COTH Rolex preview.

I wasn't intimating anything about NZ-bred Thoroughbreds, sorry. Just meant to say that pretty much unless it says AMERICAN TB, the term "thoroughbred" does not always mean purebred/racehorse/Jockey Club (or equivalent) lines.

IfWishesWereHorses
May. 2, 2006, 10:19 PM
Ahhhhh...I see. I understand what you were meaning now ;-)

Well, if they have a numberplate up their neck down here they are a standardbred...and a numberplate on the shoulder they are definitely a full bred TB...

Though most will be from the USA or UK anyway if you check their bloodlines!

Robby Johnson
May. 2, 2006, 10:24 PM
Just meant to say that pretty much unless it says AMERICAN TB, the term "thoroughbred" does not always mean purebred/racehorse/Jockey Club (or equivalent) lines.

That's because it's used incorrectly.

A "purebred" is an animal of a specific breed.

A "Thoroughbred" is a specific breed. Period.

Robby

mbj
May. 2, 2006, 10:28 PM
Well said, Big Dreamer and Judi!

fergie
May. 2, 2006, 10:30 PM
Judi,
Do you REALLY think that Darren or Becky reads this dribble on these BB's???? Do you really think they care what people on this board think? Like, who cares???? They are a little to busy with their horses for this crap. This is like "The Star" magazine for celebrities ... they are our equestrian celebrities. Some are nice, some are not.... some have big pores (that did crack me up to read that...) and some don't!

Gnep
May. 2, 2006, 11:18 PM
fergie,
they defenetly do not read this BB.

Bigdreamer thats exactly what it means.

And horses to take their day of.

what is a TB. Is realy only a jockey club TB aTb. That would completly disregard all the other TBs in the world, whos breeding goals maybe a littel differant than the jockey clubs. That would make the Irish not a TB, or the. German Vollblut ( german vor TB ) or the french ( sorry freedom ) TB would completly let out the Aussi and NZ. Sounds kinde arrogant

ridexc
May. 2, 2006, 11:35 PM
Well, on the off chance Becky DOES read this board, I have to say I LOVE that she's not a size two. Real women with real curves ride hell for leather too! :winkgrin:

And isn't it interesting that once again sniping about weight is restricted to women. Ain't nobody saying anything about Buck Davidson. Sheesh.

Mary in Area 1
May. 2, 2006, 11:36 PM
OK, I want credit for staying out of this thread for so long--

Actually, I just want you to know, some of the BNR's DO know what gets posted on these forums! Maybe they don't read it themselves, but it often gets forwarded to them, etc. I happen to know (through a friend of mine) that Darren is VERY aware of my feelings about his lack of horsemanship, and that my comments have irritated him. All that I can say is that it I am pleased there is SOME justice and balance in this universe! :)

lstevenson
May. 2, 2006, 11:50 PM
and if he goes well at Jersey Fresh and trots up sound, he's going to the WEG- possibly as an individual- but he'll get a shot.




I wouldn't bet on it. Not with the way he performed at Rolex. A good showing at Jersey Fresh wouldn't make up for that. Consistancy matters.

adamsmom
May. 3, 2006, 12:03 AM
I wouldn't bet on it. Not with the way he performed at Rolex. A good showing at Jersey Fresh wouldn't make up for that. Consistancy matters.


In the past 3 years, he and Windfall have:
- won the Pan Ams at Fair Hill
- won Red Hills
- won Poplar
- won Rocking Horse
- won the modified 4 star to Rolex

They haven't been as good this season maybe, but if they do well at Jersey, why wouldn't they be a strong contender?

JER
May. 3, 2006, 12:36 AM
All Darren fans out there -- and especially you, Mary in Area 1 -- might consider entering this contest:
http://www.ulcergard.com/darren/

For those of you who are suffering from PTSDs from the Ultium ad and are therefore afraid to look, this is the official entry page for the "Win A Day With Darren Chiacchia Sweepstakes", sponsored by Ulcerguard (really, no kidding).

Jazzy Lady
May. 3, 2006, 12:39 AM
In the past 3 years, he and Windfall have:
- won the Pan Ams at Fair Hill
- won Red Hills
- won Poplar
- won Rocking Horse
- won the modified 4 star to Rolex

They haven't been as good this season maybe, but if they do well at Jersey, why wouldn't they be a strong contender?

Don't forget a team bronze at Athens and individual 12th... They also won the Fork this year and could have easily won Red Hills had he not had an unfortunate rein break.

I would say that's about as consistent as a ***/**** horse can get.

Knowing how kind Tim Holekamp is, I hope he doesn't come on here and see people ripping apart his beautiful stallion and saying stuff that they have no idea about. Windfall is talented but like every other horse has his off days.

I can't believe what people are allowed to post on a BB about another person. Whether you are talking about a ULR or not, Fergie, you are downright RUDE. You have made some excellent points in other threads about stuff that I have agreed with, but I can't believe how people are on here spouting out their personal feelings and their own vendetta against someone. Maybe you don't like Darren, but why don't you just let sitting dogs sit. I can't believe this crap. He's a talented rider and a good coach.

This is a PUBLIC bb, and everyone is able to see what you write.

Thank you bigdreamer and Judi.

adamsmom
May. 3, 2006, 12:43 AM
Don't forget a team bronze at Athens and individual 12th... They also won the Fork this year and could have easily won Red Hills had he not had an unfortunate rein break.

I would say that's about as consistent as a ***/**** horse can get.

Knowing how kind Tim Holekamp is, I hope he doesn't come on here and see people ripping apart his beautiful stallion and saying stuff that they have no idea about. Windfall is talented but like every other horse has his off days.

I can't believe what people are allowed to post on a BB about another person. Whether you are talking about a ULR or not, Fergie, you are downright RUDE. You have made some excellent points in other threads about stuff that I have agreed with, but I can't believe how people are on here spouting out their personal feelings and their own vendetta against someone. Maybe you don't like Darren, but why don't you just let sitting dogs sit. I can't believe this crap. He's a talented rider and a good coach.

This is a PUBLIC bb, and everyone is able to see what you write.

Thank you bigdreamer and Judi.

Amen.
Mr. Holekamp is a fabulous person, as I spoke to him several times this past weekend. So are the people in Darren's support group.
Like I said, I'm not a fanatic, but he has been nothing but gracious this past week, and I wish him the best.
As others have said, the horse may have just been having an off day.
Lord knows others did.

lstevenson
May. 3, 2006, 01:01 AM
In the past 3 years, he and Windfall have:
- won the Pan Ams at Fair Hill
- won Red Hills
- won Poplar
- won Rocking Horse
- won the modified 4 star to Rolex

They haven't been as good this season maybe, but if they do well at Jersey, why wouldn't they be a strong contender?



What if they picked him for the team, and he performed like he did at Rolex?

I could see if they had no other riders to choose from, but there are quite a few combinations, that maybe don't do as well in dressage as he does, but will not stop cross country, or become exhausted at the 4 star level.

Of course, everone is entitled to an off day, but the selectors don't usually take chances on someone who has recently had that kind of an off day.

SandyUHC
May. 3, 2006, 09:47 AM
Jazzy Lady, I accept your judgment that I am rude. I am glad Darren is a good coach for you because I did not find him to be a good clinician. Some of us who think HE is rude have a hard time watching the adulation and a harder time standing by when there is a pile-on of someone who dares to diss him.

I cheer for the good guy and to me that has been Becky since the first day I saw her giving a clinic years ago, I learned more about eventing from her while standing on the ground than I have ever learned from anyone else while sitting in the saddle. Darren said that Becky could not be competitive so I always get a good giggle when her name is above his on the leaderboard -- and I am not the only one that celebrates that around these parts.

I drove 9 hours one way for the priviledge of auditing Becky, I repeatedly pass on the half-hour trip to watch Darren. (Keep in mind I've gone to Canada for a dressage lesson so I might not just be rude, I also might be NQR.) This board is all about opinions -- Fergie, Mary and I have a different one about a particular rider than you do (ours is based on personal experience and I assume yours is too) and may be useful to other event riders on this board.

I implied that Darren is rude (personal experience) and has a receeding hairline (photographic evidence on the Rolex website), I have not and cannot comment on Mr. Holecamp or Windfall and did not mean to insinuate that they are rude so I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Judi
May. 3, 2006, 09:54 AM
Judi,
Do you REALLY think that Darren or Becky reads this dribble on these BB's???? Do you really think they care what people on this board think? Like, who cares???? They are a little to busy with their horses for this crap. This is like "The Star" magazine for celebrities ... they are our equestrian celebrities. Some are nice, some are not.... some have big pores (that did crack me up to read that...) and some don't!

Hey fergie... I don't think Darren or Becky read this dribble.. that's for sure. But WE do and many people who are on this board interact or will interact with them.

Look... I'm not trying to discredit anything bad that has happened to you or others who have this bad opinion of Darren. All I'm saying is your methodology and level of viciousness makes your comments as bad as what you are saying about those you have an issue with. If your desire is to influence our opinion of Darren you would be better served to stay less emotional and nasty about your opinion or what has happened.

And as I can see on this board there are as many people who have had good experiences with him as you have had bad and they have a different opinion then you. You believe they are being "snowed by him" but perhaps they are just getting back from him what they give to him... respect.

thats all...

adamsmom
May. 3, 2006, 10:02 AM
Of course, everone is entitled to an off day, but the selectors don't usually take chances on someone who has recently had that kind of an off day.

Actually, they have done so in the past. I distinctly remember them short-listing several combinations that had trouble at Rolex, and not short listing others who had fabulous rounds at Rolex.

But, this is a new group of selectors, all of whom I have great respect for. (Not that I didn't respect the old group!! :D )
However, team selection is a much more complicated process than how one does at one selection trial.

InVA
May. 3, 2006, 10:08 AM
Darren is like many of the Big time riders - sorry to dash anyone's heroic impressions. He is a talented rider, that is certain . BTR's? -they can hear a checkbook opening a mile away.

SandyUHC
May. 3, 2006, 10:13 AM
Judi, part of my post above was in response to you of course. You bring up a good point though -- how many of the Darren fans/non-fans here have had personal interactions with him? Not every clinician or coach works for every rider, I understand that, but if only the positive is ever allowed to be voiced people may end up disappointed.

goobs
May. 3, 2006, 10:15 AM
not commenting on anything in this thread but that picture just ZOOMS out at you! It looked like it was taken spontaneously and not in a studio where they told him to pose and had make up and the lighting was just so and such. Au natural but still - I can see what the buzz is about too! It's so in your face (not saying that it's Darren's fault, I am sure he had no say in that advertisement layout!)

Anyway - a few thoughts - maybe Darren says those things because he is (deep down) insecure about himself. You would think that most people in his position shouldn't be insecure about anything - but they are. Maybe not about his horsemanship skills but about himself. So instead of getting all riled up about his comments and attitude you should just rise above it. I've seen his snotty attitude in action and trust me it doesn't affect me - in fact I let out a very flippant snotty sentence directed at him once and he just looked at me unsure of how to react then walked away. My friend died laughing and it wasn't a personal attack at all. Darren doesn't pay my bills so what do I care if he is a snob? He is a pleasure to watch in the ring and I've seen him coaching at shows - he seems nice. My friend is one of his students and nothing but good things are said about him. You can't let what one person says make you bitter because then they have won. If he calls someone fat or whatever that's HIS problem. With people like that you either give it right back to them and call them on it or you just walk away. Fergie - if I had heard him commenting about that rider's weight or anyone's weight - the appropriate comment would be along the lines of "and what issue of GQ or PlayGirl did you grace Mr. Perfect?" and left it at that. You can't keep on running around with this anger towards Darren, it's not healthy. There are better things to do and do you think he really cares anyway? No! He doesn't!

Also - it is a fact that having a few extra pounds does not mean that someone is not athletic or in shape. One trainer at my gym told me that one guy who won the Ironman (forget the name or the year) was 26 lbs OVERWEIGHT! I also know very thin people who are in pathetic shape - they can't walk fast for 1/4 mile without dying for breath. So to tie back with Darren's comment on someone's weight - I would have looked at him and thought "what does he know? he's so ignorant" and I would have walked away.

Robby Johnson
May. 3, 2006, 10:24 AM
I implied that Darren is rude (personal experience) and has a receeding hairline (photographic evidence on the Rolex website), I have not and cannot comment on Mr. Holecamp or Windfall and did not mean to insinuate that they are rude so I'm sorry if you got that impression.

Pores aside, I'd kill for his hairline, which I would say is hardly receding. As well as his body, if we're killing for things that others have. He is strict on himself and I think he expects that of others, as well as his horses.

We are all a tapestry woven from the threads of our genetics, our environment, our beliefs and our dreams. I would say that often a person's greatest strength is also their greatest weakness. We must always seek to find a balance, or know when it's appropriate to push to the next level.

I personally would rather laugh and live along the way, as opposed to deprivation of humor and heartfelt interaction, as I feel individuals who race against the hourglass eventually wind up old and alone.

Darren reminds me a bit of Paris Hilton in that he has very successfully crafted himself into a brand. And he has lead the way in doing that. Based on the reaction to Team Darren, it would seem our market of internal customers (eventers) is obviously not so ready for superstars, yet we constantly claim we're ready for external (public) exposure. If that is the case we MUST have spokespeople who connect to the mainstream public in an identifiable way.

While Darren's tactics apparently irk many, his committment to his own success is something many would say they admire.

What if the Ultium campaign were Kim Severson? Or Amy Tryon? Or John Williams? Or Will Faudree? Would the reaction be as toxic?

I think the barrier, too, is that we're, as a community, a little too close to the source. I mean, for years and years people bought into Naomi Campbell and Kate Moss as a face for Versace and many other couture houses and luxe products. We didn't know they were cocaine-addicts and cornucopias of neuroses. Just that they were skinny and beautiful. But those in the know - the photographers, the stylists, the models, the houses themselves - knew what happened behind the scenes. And it's spawned tell-all books and articles, etc. And I can speak personally when I say it has changed the way I view any sort of ad campaign that features either of these models.

Public opinion shifts when more fact and information is made available. Credibility is key, and reputation management is critical.

p.s. Goobs, I love your post. It's very accurate. I will say that Darren has been a friend to me several times when I've needed one. Just when you want to pinch his head, he says something totally wise and totally appropriate to the situation. He's actually incredibly smart, well-read, and definitely committed to his journey.

bornfreenowexpensive
May. 3, 2006, 10:28 AM
Even with Rolex this year....I'd think he'd have to still be in contention for WEG...he wasn't the only nice horse to have trouble at Rolex. I'm glad I'm not a selector! I really started this thread because I was impressed with the dressage score and would have loved to see that test. I did not intend to start a let's bash Darren or Windfall thread. Regardless of whether someone likes or dislikes Darren...or dislikes some add (although now I want to see this add)...He is a good rider to get where he is (better than me for sure) and Windfall is an extremely nice horse. I'm personally not a Trak fan...all the ones I've personally know have had a screw loose (athletic as all get out but a little nuts). But looking at Windfall's record, the quality of the offspring he has produced...he is undoubtedly a nice stallion. There just are not very many stallions that get to the level he is in eventing for a number of reasons or have the track record in his pedigree for producing event horses.

I do think that the selectors have their work cut out deciding the WEG...I would like to see Windfall do well, just like I'd like to see Becky and all other riders at that level do well. It takes guts and hard work as well as talent (and a lot of luck) to get where they are.

emartell93
May. 3, 2006, 11:23 AM
How old is the first crop of Windfall babies? Are there many of them on the ground (from all his years standing)?

Does any one have a link to a website for Windfall (with pictures of him, offspring, etc)? Just curious!!

bigdreamer
May. 3, 2006, 11:27 AM
I'm personally not a Trak fan...all the ones I've personally know have had a screw loose (athletic as all get out but a little nuts).
:lol:

sounds like my guy- it's so true. but yet, i still love the breed. i think that's WHY i love the breed. (i think i have a screw loose, too)

bigdreamer
May. 3, 2006, 11:28 AM
How old is the first crop of Windfall babies? Are there many of them on the ground (from all his years standing)?

Does any one have a link to a website for Windfall (with pictures of him, offspring, etc)? Just curious!!


http://www.newspringfarm.com/windfall/breed_windfall.html

link to his foals- well, some of them-, and a whole site about him. enjoy ;)

emartell93
May. 3, 2006, 11:30 AM
Thank you!!

I have typically not been a Trak fan but, I'm expecting my first one in June (in-utero). Baby is 1/2 Trak but, I couldn't be more pleased. I have since started to enjoy the breed and have really taken a liking to them.

lstevenson
May. 3, 2006, 11:33 AM
Actually, they have done so in the past. I distinctly remember them short-listing several combinations that had trouble at Rolex, and not short listing others who had fabulous rounds at Rolex.




If someone has a fluke fall or one really bad stadium round or dressage test, yes they might overlook that. But multiple REFUSALS on cross country, no.

bigdreamer
May. 3, 2006, 11:34 AM
emartell- whose the trak in his pedigree? just curious :)

(sorry to semi hijack ;))

adamsmom
May. 3, 2006, 11:43 AM
If someone has a fluke fall or one really bad stadium round or dressage test, yes they might overlook that. But multiple REFUSALS on cross country, no.

Not trying to start a fight (really! I promise!! :winkgrin: ), but I left out that some of the combinations short listed also had problems at Fair Hill the previous fall.
Again, just pointing out that the selectors take A LOT OF THINGS into consideration before they pick teams.

adamsmom
May. 3, 2006, 11:44 AM
Great post Robby.
You summed up my thoughts in a much more coherent way than I could!!
:lol:

emartell93
May. 3, 2006, 11:48 AM
emartell- whose the trak in his pedigree? just curious :)

(sorry to semi hijack ;))

Tagaelen

bigdreamer
May. 3, 2006, 11:54 AM
Tagaelen

crossed with a TB? that'll be a lovely cross! you'll have to post pics :)

hb
May. 3, 2006, 12:03 PM
Fabulous post Robby!



What if the Ultium campaign were Kim Severson? Or Amy Tryon? Or John Williams? Or Will Faudree? Would the reaction be as toxic?


To answer your question, my problem isn't that it's Darren, but that it's a big close up of a rider's face trying to sell horse feed. The rider's face is probably the least important part of their body as far as the horse is concerned, and has little influence on how they ride or take care of their horses.

The Amy Tryon LMF feed ads (do we only see those out west?) show a picture of her on her horse and state that she actually feeds it to her horses. Now that won't necessarily make me go buy their feed, since my horse doesn't have the same nutritional needs as a 4-star horse, but it's a much more palatable ad, in my book. Because it focuses on the HORSE.

The Ultium ads are just as stupid as the beefcake horse blanket ads (is that Rambo? I don't remember). Use a pretty rider to sell top hats or show jackets or something else pretty for riders. Use a healthy horse to sell horse care products.


If external public exposure leads to riders being the superstars instead of the horses, and to competitions crafted to have the best public appeal rather than be the best test of the horse, then please let's stay small.

emartell93
May. 3, 2006, 12:14 PM
crossed with a TB? that'll be a lovely cross! you'll have to post pics :)

Not a TB.. a more unconventional breed.. STBD. I was skeptical at first but, I didn't even know the mare was STBD until I was told (when I first saw her, I had other ideas as to her breed)!! Here is the mare:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b83/emartell93/leftside.jpg

Edited because first link didn't work.

bigdreamer
May. 3, 2006, 12:17 PM
Not a TB.. a more unconventional breed.. STBD. I was skeptical at first but, I didn't even know the mare was STBD until I was told (when I first saw her, I had other ideas as to her breed)!! Here is the mare:
http://image53.webshots.com/53/5/60/50/2508560500049131932PjSkLO_ph.jpg

i am forbidden to see her picture! do you have a different link?
I have limited experience with STBD's, but the one I'm semi-working with right now is the sweetest horse I have EVER met in my life. and also has a killer trot ;) Now I really want to see what the baby looks like!

emartell93
May. 3, 2006, 12:19 PM
Baby won't be born until June so, I'm dying to see what it looks like too!! For now, I only have an ultrasound picture!! haha I'm sure it will be stunning as a lot of thought went into this baby (picking the PERFECT stallion for this mare) and I'm sure I'll be thrilled.

I know my coach will have a melt down.. she's not a Trak or a STBD fan.. I haven't even told her about the baby yet, I'm waiting until it's born! :D

magnolia73
May. 3, 2006, 12:28 PM
I think everyone has different personalities. Often times the most successful are the most abrasive and driven. From what people post, DC reminds me of George Morris. George Morris is not going to be nice.... but he is going to get you where you need to be and he got himself where he needed to be. Eventing is very lucky to be filled with charming "spokespeople" - who would not want to spend a day with Denny Emerson or David O'Conner? But understand, there is a whole range of personalities who are successful. DC is emerging as one of those. It's a little disconcerting that someone less then the jovial horseman has appeared on the scene.

I don't get the ads - but hopefully he was well paid and they work for Purina. I suppose there is an attempt to make horse sports sexy - we all sung the praises of the sexy event rider calendar - maybe Purina read that topic and thought we wanted Beefcake Darren ads.... and someone, somewhere, cut that ad out and hung it up conspicuously.

bigdreamer
May. 3, 2006, 12:32 PM
maybe Purina read that topic and thought we wanted Beefcake Darren ads.... and someone, somewhere, cut that ad out and hung it up conspicuously.

:lol:... *looks around* wasn't me! ;)

no really, it wasn't.

i do, however, have a picture of windfall on my corkboard :)

olympicprincess
May. 3, 2006, 12:39 PM
I don't get the ads - but hopefully he was well paid and they work for Purina. I suppose there is an attempt to make horse sports sexy - we all sung the praises of the sexy event rider calendar - maybe Purina read that topic and thought we wanted Beefcake Darren ads.... and someone, somewhere, cut that ad out and hung it up conspicuously.
OMG! :lol: Last night one of the students (16yr) I took w/ me to Rolex told me to look in her tack locker- as I passed I see Darren's face staring back right at eye level. She cut it out of her program. She and I both *know* about him and we're hoping they're all just rumors! :winkgrin: We talked to him on both Fri & Sat- he was very nice as he signed our shirts.

Laurel&HollyFarm
May. 3, 2006, 12:49 PM
And isn't it interesting that once again sniping about weight is restricted to women. Ain't nobody saying anything about Buck Davidson. Sheesh.

I love Buck and he would be the first to talk about himself. The first time I met him my husband and I were invited to watch the Kentucky Derby with another ULR. The other rider offered us drinks. One of the drinks offered was a diet soda. Buck looked up and said "do I look like someone that would drink a diet soda?" :D Too funny.

persefne
May. 3, 2006, 01:03 PM
Buck looked up and said "do I look like someone that would drink a diet soda?"

Love it! He's such a fun character, just like his dear ole dad. :cool:

Gnep
May. 3, 2006, 01:18 PM
to judge a horse and a rider by one very bad outing at X-C is quiet stupid. Especialy if one considers the Level.
If a rider or a horse is that day just 90% and not 110% they will just fail in X-C at this level and they will show their problems after the first third. With the modified thing it naturally shows in X-C. The long format had the advantage that one could get a real good feel for the days form during ABC, especialy B.
After B you know what you got, no doubt.
That is one of the probs we have to deal with in the modified thing.

If a horse has its of day during dressage, well its not more than a lousy score, in stadium firewood and in X-C elimination.

And the rest if this rider looks good or not or is nice at any given moment or not that is nothing more than a personal judgement and basicly meaningles

Glimmerglass
May. 3, 2006, 01:54 PM
I'm sure I'll get flack on this but I swear when I first saw the picture of Darren in the Purina Ultium ad (the 'dressage' one) I could only think of this exceeding well known picture from A Clockwork Orange" (http://www.archiviokubrick.it/film/am/foto/alex03.jpg) ;)

By the way, what gives with the Chornicle of the Horse opting out of their Rolex issue not being part of the program handout. I was looking forward to it as I just let my subscription lapse after 8 years ... I suppose the Steeplchase Times folks looked to fill the 'free issue' slot with their Eventing Times Rolex edition.

two sticks
May. 3, 2006, 01:59 PM
PLEASE can someone scan the add? I'm dying to see it.

Lisa Cook
May. 3, 2006, 02:02 PM
By the way, what gives with the Chornicle of the Horse opting out of their Rolex issue not being part of the program handout. I was looking forward to it as I just let my subscription lapse after 8 years ...

When I bought my program at the gate by the campground on Thursday, it did not have an order of go in the program. I asked the people selling the programs about the order of go, and they told me that they did not have them, but I could pick one up at the tent selling programs in the main trade fair.

So, I stopped by the program booth in the trade fair, showed them the program I bought, and explained it was missing an order of go list. The man there gave me an order of go list and then asked if the people at the gate had given me the Chronicle of the Horse with my program like they were supposed to. I said no, I had not received it, and the man handed me one.

Apparently everyone was supposed to receive a Chronicle with a program purchase, but not all of the program sellers were including them with the programs.

Glimmerglass
May. 3, 2006, 02:11 PM
Apparently everyone was supposed to receive a Chronicle with a program purchase, but not all of the program sellers were including them with the programs.

Lisa, thanks for that! When I bought my program on Saturday at the same entry gate you did there were still none being distributed. Perhaps by then they had run out of copies regardless. I picked up an order of go at the official booth/tent but I didn't see any Chronicles being given out there or at the Chronicle booth in the main vendor's tent.

BBowen
May. 3, 2006, 03:07 PM
Glimmerglass:

I got my program on Friday and it had the Chronicle in it and I also saw some at the Chronicle's booth. They did make an announcement on Sunday that they had sold out of all of the programs (a first time ever). They may have run out of the Chronicle or they just had not had time to stuff them into another box of programs if they were selling that quickly. I rarely depend on getting an order of go with the program. Will stop by the secretary's booth first thing in the mornings to get an order of go if I need it and a copy of the latest results.

This is the first year I have gotten my Chronicle before I left for Rolex, so like you, I always look forward to getting it with my program.

InVA
May. 3, 2006, 03:21 PM
When I was little we would go to these people's house that had a picture of Jesus on the wall - the eyes of the Jesus would follow you wherever you went. it freaked me OUT! the Jesus picture is almost as scary as the AD...

two sticks
May. 3, 2006, 03:56 PM
When I was little we would go to these people's house that had a picture of Jesus on the wall - the eyes of the Jesus would follow you wherever you went. it freaked me OUT! the Jesus picture is almost as scary as the AD...

Haha, but as my equine magazine subscriptions have lapsed, and I didn't make it to rolex, i have yet to see it!! I must, after all this discussion!

Debbie
May. 3, 2006, 04:34 PM
Two Sticks -- We could start a chant!

I'm dying to see this ad... however Jesus Eye Freaky, May Never Sleep Again Scarey, Pore-rific it may be. :D I've already googled with no luck...

Have mercy people, girlfriend needs to be in the know!

two sticks
May. 3, 2006, 04:47 PM
Two Sticks -- We could start a chant!

I'm dying to see this ad... however Jesus Eye Freaky, May Never Sleep Again Scarey, Pore-rific it may be. :D I've already googled with no luck...

Have mercy people, girlfriend needs to be in the know!

haha!

AD! AD! AD!

i googled too with no luck.

dianad
May. 3, 2006, 05:05 PM
[quote=Glimmerglass]I'm sure I'll get flack on this but I swear when I first saw the picture of Darren in the Purina Ultium ad (the 'dressage' one) I could only think of this exceeding well known picture from A Clockwork Orange" (http://www.archiviokubrick.it/film/am/foto/alex03.jpg) ;)

quote]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

SandyUHC
May. 3, 2006, 05:41 PM
Someone quick tell Purina to add the AD to the Ultium page, they'd get a few extra hits on it anyway.

Lisa Cook
May. 3, 2006, 05:55 PM
Ok, Ok, here are the ads. I had to rip them out of my Rolex program before the scanner would scan them properly.



Dressage:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/550062002/2627400830058568908xmlnBO



Cross Country:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/550062002/2107529180058568908WFyVlt


Stadium:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/550062002/2589388020058568908hTyZGm

deltawave
May. 3, 2006, 06:06 PM
Compare the Clockwork Orange one with this... :D

bornfreenowexpensive
May. 3, 2006, 06:09 PM
Thanks Lisa....ok...I will get flamed. I didn't think they were bad espcially after all the hype. To be honest, I wouldn't have even known that was Darren without the caption. They don't freak me out .....but very little does. I could see the marketing ploy. I mean come on...it's feed. How interesting can you make feed! The picture would have gotten me to stop and read the add just to see what it is about...

It is a very good product by the way....

But Deltawave...that is just too FUNNY!!!

deltawave
May. 3, 2006, 06:14 PM
I agree it's a great product and the ad won't make me stop using the stuff (I just bought 4 bags!) but MAN, those lips, those eyes... :eek: :no:

I'd like to think DC has a sense of humor and is getting a big old giggle out of this ad...I myself would've had a hard time keeping a straight face if asked to pout like that! :D

Janeway
May. 3, 2006, 06:20 PM
:lol:

Those are a hoot! I totally see how it has nothing to do with the horse. Plus, is it my imagination or is it the exact same picture just with different head gear?

It is a rather impressive pout :D

deltawave
May. 3, 2006, 06:23 PM
No, he's all "sweaty" in the XC photo. :lol:

Debbie
May. 3, 2006, 06:44 PM
Lisa Cook -- You ROCK, thank you.

Deltawave -- You so bad... :yes:

Okay, those are, um quite over the top, would be my most diplomatic take. I disagree with whoever thought they were candids, the lighting's too consistent and the composition is too pat. I agree with Robby that ads are becoming passe, and I certainly wouldn't buy feed based on an ad. BUT, I have to say I appreciate that Purina's ad folks are trying to convey the passion and intensity of our sport -- kind of giving it an X Games spin if you will. Just trying to make some lemonade...

Back more to the point, I first saw Windfall at Foxhall in 03 (?) and when he walked into the barn I was mesmerized by his presence and beauty. That was the year he fell in the water and I kept making excuses to walk by his stall and admire him even with his knees bandaged and looking kind of grumpy. All politics aside, I don't see how you could find him anything but impressive. As to whether he's a 4 star horse or not, he's certainly made his presence felt, the last 2 Rolex outings notwithstanding.

Personally, his fees are too rich for my pocketbook, but I think his get look wonderful. If those ads had been an equally close study on Windfall's face, I'd like them more! :D

Jazzy Lady
May. 3, 2006, 06:47 PM
Great post Robby.
You summed up my thoughts in a much more coherent way than I could!!
:lol:

Yes, thank you :)

oldbutnotdead
May. 3, 2006, 06:50 PM
Let's just celebrate that we have an _eventer_ in an advertisement!

Sannois
May. 3, 2006, 06:54 PM
Let's just celebrate that we have an _eventer_ in an advertisement!
Those ads could be anyone.. And really you can hardly tell what he is wearing or that it is riding apparel. The Dressage one is like some playbill for some version of A chorus Line.. :lol: :eek:

Sannois
May. 3, 2006, 07:00 PM
But BEEFCAKE of Darren?? Why would anyone think we would want beefcake of Darren????? Ummm gee whats wrong with that picture??:eek: :confused: :eek: :no:

3dazey
May. 3, 2006, 07:30 PM
I am 100% sure that is McLain Ward....(pointing finger at door and frowning sternly at Lisa Cook), now SLINK, young lady, SLINK!!!

Lisa Cook
May. 3, 2006, 07:33 PM
Thank you, bornfreenowexpensive! :lol:

bornfreenowexpensive
May. 3, 2006, 07:35 PM
:D

hb
May. 3, 2006, 09:05 PM
This is the first time I've seen all three ads at the same time.

That look on his face, it's the same in all three, could it be....

BLUE STEEL????

Xctrygirl
May. 3, 2006, 09:09 PM
Hey Lisa... not to be rude, hopefully informative.

The other ad pic in your webshots is not Phillip.

Thats's McClain Ward.

Just FYi.

~Emily

deltawave
May. 3, 2006, 09:26 PM
You decide... :D

adamsmom
May. 3, 2006, 09:27 PM
I dunno.....
I kinda think Darren's look would make Derek Zoolander proud.

:winkgrin: :lol:

fergie
May. 3, 2006, 09:33 PM
After seeing those photos compared to the clockwork orange (very close, by the way) I don't even want to hear about how "rude" I am!!! (I loved it, by the way!!!!)

Debbie
May. 3, 2006, 09:37 PM
Blue Steel!! LMAO, too true! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Reynard Ridge
May. 3, 2006, 09:39 PM
This is the first time I've seen all three ads at the same time.
That look on his face, it's the same in all three, could it be....BLUE STEEL????

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ok, now that I have seen the ads, I have to say that I can't quite imagine what those Purina people were smoking.

My comments are utterly unrelated to whoever the heck is poutin' and sweatin' in those ads. I don't care if it's Darren, or Bruce or Denny or Karen (with or without her tatoo). They are just weird.

Kind of reminds me of the Kraft Snack Fairy. Anyone see those ads with the geeky guy with the receding chin wearing the tutu? High caliber WWYS stuff.

Lisa Cook
May. 3, 2006, 10:04 PM
Hey Lisa... not to be rude, hopefully informative.

The other ad pic in your webshots is not Phillip.

Thats's McClain Ward.

Just FYi.

~Emily

Ah, thanks. With the help of bornfreenowexpensive, I thought I had successfully deleted my way out of my embarassing BNR confusion, but I see I didn't delete quite everything...I forgot about web shots!

Phillip Dutton/McLain Ward...is it only me who thinks they look similar?

Wait! Don't answer that! Please carry on with the Darren discussion!

two sticks
May. 3, 2006, 10:36 PM
You decide... :D

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Ahahahahh AHAHAHAHAH ahahahaha.

definetly zoolander-esque!

Judi
May. 3, 2006, 10:43 PM
Um... actually... I'm looking at these ads as a Marketing Executive and thinking...

Hmmm... someone at Purina.. just doesn't understand their targeted demographic. These ads absolutely do nothing to sell feed but perhaps all they were looking for was is exactly what all of you have just done.

EVERY Marketing Executive dreams about this kind of talk about thier ads... if you haven't noticed sometimes ad agencies cross the line.. just to get someone to talk about it. Think about it.. if it was yet another rider on a horse shot you all would just thumb right past it. Now Purina has you all talking about these ads (and scanning and posting them) for thier exact targeted demographic.

Hmmmm... I'm thinking perhaps they understand their targeted demographic after all...

You guys are so easy...

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:06 AM
Windfall's dressage has obviously greatly improved since the 2004 Athens Olympics. Despite the fact that many feel the course was soft for a 4*, it was still the Olympic games and plenty of top international riders had trouble in different spots on the course. Windfall made time here, and people also have to remember that the rider, not the horse is in charge of keeping track of time.

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:09 AM
Last year Windfall was spun because of a soundness controversy that was a result of the Athens Olympics, not because of a lack of talent.
I am not saying anything against the skills that he and Darren possess as a team, but their luck at the 4* level is a bit touch and go.

Last year at Rolex he was spun before D. Admittedly he is a short format horse in my book. And he did a good round in 2004 no doubt, I mean come on he won it.

I am not trying to be negative. Just for me, Windfall and Darren have to make it through the finish line in stadium before they get the applause out of me. But that being said, they are a lovely duo to watch in dressage. And they absolutely have my respect as competitors.

~Emily

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:10 AM
Even though the ad was creepy, WF and Darren are still a top horse/rider combination with a track record to prove it.
okay, this is going to sound awful, but after that silly ad with the creepy picture of DC, I hope they don't win, if it would lead to more ads like that.

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:13 AM
I have heard from sources that Darren came from a lot of money growing up. Does anyone know anything about his background that could help answer this thought?
That is one arrogant little snit that doesn't "deserve" a thing (the rider, that is....).

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:14 AM
I agree with you. I'm sick of Kim and Dan. Dan appears to lack expression and seems to be overtrained.
Got to watch Darren go today. He REALLY deserved that 33. Atleast someone can beat Kim in the dressage.

I watched every ride today and I think that some of the riders should have gotten a better score than they did (like Nathalie Pollard, Karen O'Connor and William Fox-Pitt). However, I am not a judge so I have no say.

I got to walk a little of the cross country course with Buck Davidson. It will definitely be a challenge (but of course...it's Rolex!).

I feel really bad for Bruce. Jam AND Little Tricky were FULL of themselves. I hope cross country moves positions around. Poor Phillip Dutton too...
If the cross country goes well for everyone (which it probably won't) and the stadium as well, he won't be winning it this year. He got a 57 on Connaught and a 61.3 on Amazing Odyssey. However, This is eventing so anything can happen!!

Praying for good weather tomorrow....

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:19 AM
Windfall and Darren have a great cross country record. Athens, 2004 Rolex, Red Hills, just to name a few. There was no predictability in what happened at all. I am almost certain it was a soundness issue, Windfall had to be hurting.
I could say a lot here, but I won't.

All I will say is that with any leader after dressage you hope that they make it through and do well.

It's too bad that this year that wasn't the case, regardless of who was in the lead.

But as to Darren and Windfall, it was sadly predictable to see their first stop. Now the rest surprised me, but oh well.


~Emily

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:26 AM
Dressage is the foundation for training, videos have even been produced entitled dressag for jumping. You are obviously not informed, Windfall has a proven track record in the x-country and show jumping. Eventing starts with the dressage phase, and it is becoming increasingly important.
Windfall proves (again) that it is NOT a dressage show...

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:29 AM
If you look up the history of the breed you wil find Trakehners are high percentage TB and contain Arab blood which everyone knows is prized for endurance.
Perhaps the new format as taxing as the one at Rolex once again doesn't sit well the "condition "of any horse, ESPECIALLY a warmblood, even Windfall! In the past, Darren's Trakehners would do well at horse trials but could never deal with the the endurance required at a three day. (Does no one else know or remember this, I'm not THAT old....??) So this horse's fatigue at Rolex doesn't suprise me at all and I'm actually surprised that Windfall could make it all the way through ANY three day in the past, looking at Darren's Trakehners' track records. I think that Darren's conditioning program was fine, he knows what it takes to get a horse three day fit, but I think that eventing just ISN'T a sport for warmbloods!!!!

eventer2002
May. 4, 2006, 03:34 AM
I don't remember reading this anywhere.
Well she wasn't too fat to get around the ENTIRE cross country course, unlike some others. And unless he is her trainer, then her weight is none of his business.

Robby Johnson
May. 4, 2006, 06:44 AM
I agree with you. I'm sick of Kim and Dan. Dan appears to lack expression and seems to be overtrained.

Another example of the Celebrity Life-Cycle and "who's hot, who's not" mentality that exists in our culture.

It's not Kim and Dan's, or Darren's and Windfall's, or Karen's and Woody's, jobs to make you like them. This is not a popularity contest. This is three-day eventing. It's about winning at a level.

I don't know how a horse could be "overtrained" but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

AKDragooPhoto
May. 4, 2006, 06:51 AM
What I find odd about the ads is that the eyes are green. I believe Darren has ice blue eyes. Why change them?

pwynnnorman
May. 4, 2006, 07:11 AM
I don't know how a horse could be "overtrained" but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

Really? I know lots of jumper riders (and thus I am sure event riders think the same way) who would disagree (depending on what we are defining, of course).

In fact, Con's brother Teddy, who is an awesome show jumper, aggravated a lot of the pros who rode him because, as an FEI level dressage horse, too, he preferred to just wait, wait, wait until being told, whether it was across the diagonal or approaching the triple.

Surely, eventers appreciate a horse which is wiling to "take charge" through a line? Upper level dressage horses (and the **** test is sure approaching that concept) can be GIVEN freedom and they use is wonderfully in terms of expression and brilliance, but it's a gift, not an entitlement and they know it.

I hope eventer horses are never forced to relinquish their right to run and jump. Much as I admire Kim and certainly there's no "blaming" going on here, I do think Dan has shown a lack of the run-and-jump (except that year at...what was it? Burghl or Badm?...) which I find a bit boring. Same with The Foreman and even Woody, to a certain extent.

(And THAT I say after Con wudda-cudda-shudda placed as high as 3rd at The Fork if he had he been more "submissive" on x-c!. Still, as a traditionalist at heart who accepts the short format, I'd rather my horse lost brilliantly than won boringly! .... But don't ask me this question next year, OK?):winkgrin:

annikak
May. 4, 2006, 07:14 AM
It's not Kim and Dan's, or Darren's and Windfall's, or Karen's and Woody's, jobs to make you like them. This is not a popularity contest. This is three-day eventing. It's about winning at a level.

I don't know how a horse could be "overtrained" but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Funny- I thought the same thing- Overtrained for Dressage? what a concept! I don't think I would even be accused of that! I just plain did not think it was possible- with all the conditioning they have to do- well, thats well conditioned, fit horses that need all that training to stay in the ring! (imo):yes:

As far as the ad goes- what about the Rambo guy selling blankets when he is only partially clad? there are even more examples in the real world of advertising of strange ad slants. By that ad, Purina sure got a lot of brand-name discussion going. As said before, the ad obviously worked!

as an aside- boy this is a snarky thread- and yeah, I will read it because I value all your opinions, but my goodness, Darren obvioulsy rides well, has an awesome horse, great owners of his horses, has done really REALLY well with him- why not just say that? His record is pretty good.
I don't like some BNT's..but I also don't like some of the cashiers at Kroger, either. I just don't use them. As far as getting around Rolex this year, there were quite a few that did not make it. So, why all the Darren Bashing?

Or is he the current.."the one I love to hate most" rider? (I think he has been there a long long time, however...)

AkDragoo- I LOVE your pics!!! (Swoon smiley here...)

PiedPiper
May. 4, 2006, 07:27 AM
Thank you Robby. Always the voice of reason.

AppJumpr08
May. 4, 2006, 07:31 AM
Am I still on the eventing board?? For a moment I felt like I stumbled onto the dressage or H/J boards...

Who cares if he grew up with money???? Do I think he can come across full of himself sometimes? Sure. Have I sat and had a drink with him after a long weekend of competitions in FL and had a blast? Yup. Perhaps Windfall would go well at WEG this year. Perhaps he wouldn't. No one can really say until sunday evening. Everyone has bad weekends, everyone has good weekends. Perhaps Windfall and Darren are just more high profile then alot of other riders so when they have a rough go more people talk about it??

There is a bit too much snarkieness on this board for my tastes...

The comparison between Darren's ads and Clockwork Orange did make me giggle though *teehee*

Xctrygirl
May. 4, 2006, 07:41 AM
Windfall and Darren have a great cross country record. Athens, 2004 Rolex, Red Hills, just to name a few. There was no predictability in what happened at all. I am almost certain it was a soundness issue, Windfall had to be hurting.


Just to elaborate. My comment was based on my own personal predictions of what I alone thought would happen. After watching him and Windfall compete at the '04 Selection trials, Rolex 2004, and some other events in between. After seeing the virtual course walk, and speaking to many friends who had seen and spoken to him at Rolex prior to xc.

My opinions are just that, mine. You don't have to agree with me. All I was saying was that it didn't shock me to see him have a stop xc. Not that THAT fence was where I picked, just thought he'd probably have trouble. Now the fact that it snowballed into many more stops did surprise me.

I admire Windfall and will admit that at Rolex '04 I was complimenting Darren, in person, on how well the stallion had rounded out to an all around good horse.

If we're gonna bring up his results from Red Hills, I think we should recall that the duo didn't seem on that weekend either. He won dressage, then had 44.8 time faults on xc. And in stadium pulled a rail and finished in 13th place.


Love him or hate him, though clearly here many seem to hate, people are allowed their own opinions. If we steer clear of slander and derogatory comments that could affect his income, we should be allowed to have our own feelings. Some of us have had lots of personal contact with him, others none. Some have had nothing but good experiences, others bad. Right or wrong as Robby said our culture has shifted to be very popularity related. Whether its about warmbloods vs. tb's, Darren and windfall, or Woof boots vs. Leather boots.

If we can all agree to disagree, then maybe we could get back to more positive topics.

~Emily

pwynnnorman
May. 4, 2006, 07:44 AM
Oh, nonesense on the snarkiness, IMO!

This thread has come as close to "real world sports fans" in the horse industry as any has ever come. Why, why, why do we have to temper our feelings in this sport?

Y'know, I grew up in prep schools where smiling was frowned upon by the "in" crowd. I've always hated that. Let it all hang out, dearies, I say! More fun. They who want glory must accept the exposure that comes with it. Their exposure is our fun. Same with every celebrity out there.

deltawave
May. 4, 2006, 08:05 AM
Right, PWynnorman...please let's not be so "shocked and dismayed" that sports fans are human beings, passionate about their sport, and prone to having strong opinions! :lol:

And as to the ads being weird or strange or unappealing--they say there's no such thing as bad publicity! :D

3dazey
May. 4, 2006, 09:25 AM
Honestly, I would eat glass before I'd allow a closeup of my delightful face appear in print ANYWHERE. So I guess kudos for that kind of bravado.

Pwynn, would you clarify your comment about Dan lacking run & jump (I know I'm paraphrasing but I'm too lazy to go back for an exact quote). I'm interested in where you're coming from with that, is all. I'll refrain from biting your head off until I know what you mean! :lol:

goobs
May. 4, 2006, 09:30 AM
Going back to if Darren grew up with $$$ - I don't think he did. I remember reading something where it stated that his family did not have money of any kind and Darren rode whatever he could when he was little. There was no money for lessons or a horse, etc. He (if I remember correctly) had no money for saddle or proper clothes and he learned a lot from riding bareback all the time at first.

pwynnnorman
May. 4, 2006, 09:37 AM
Sure, 3dazey. I didn't mean he didn't have the ability. It jsut seems that he--well, maybe COMPARATIVELY, but not really objectively--lacks the "fire" of some of the equine personalities out there. He's so GOOD, y'know? (Or, at least, that's my impression of him: Doesn't put a foot wrong.) I'm sure it's really jsut a measure of Kim's ability to develop the perfect horse perfectly, but I do like the excitement of, say, Bruce's two. The old nailbiting about will they or won't they explode in dressage and the "my god will he (rider) get him (horse) back in time (for the next jump)" thrill of watching that type go at it x-c.

Robby Johnson
May. 4, 2006, 10:05 AM
Really? I know lots of jumper riders (and thus I am sure event riders think the same way) who would disagree (depending on what we are defining, of course).

In fact, Con's brother Teddy, who is an awesome show jumper, aggravated a lot of the pros who rode him because, as an FEI level dressage horse, too, he preferred to just wait, wait, wait until being told, whether it was across the diagonal or approaching the triple.

Surely, eventers appreciate a horse which is wiling to "take charge" through a line? Upper level dressage horses (and the **** test is sure approaching that concept) can be GIVEN freedom and they use is wonderfully in terms of expression and brilliance, but it's a gift, not an entitlement and they know it.

I hope eventer horses are never forced to relinquish their right to run and jump. Much as I admire Kim and certainly there's no "blaming" going on here, I do think Dan has shown a lack of the run-and-jump (except that year at...what was it? Burghl or Badm?...) which I find a bit boring. Same with The Foreman and even Woody, to a certain extent.

(And THAT I say after Con wudda-cudda-shudda placed as high as 3rd at The Fork if he had he been more "submissive" on x-c!. Still, as a traditionalist at heart who accepts the short format, I'd rather my horse lost brilliantly than won boringly! .... But don't ask me this question next year, OK?):winkgrin:

Do you want your airline pilot to take off from Dulles thinking, "You know, this plane has been a little quirky the past few times I've flown it ... I hope we don't crash but if we do, whatevz!"

I have zero respect for out of control or unpredictable horses. That's how people and horses get hurt and killed.

I saw WFP and Coup de Couer - my most favorite horse on Earth at the moment - flip at the water, and if you think it didn't make me nearly vomit you would be wrong.

Think a little bit more about what you are saying, and if anyone is finding themselves bored with the current crop, I'd advise you to actually climb aboard a horse and step up your own game, then get back with the BB on your perceptions of how others should be doing it.

Robby

Lisamarie8
May. 4, 2006, 10:17 AM
I'd advise you to actually climb aboard a horse and step up your own game, then get back with the BB on your perceptions of how others should be doing it.

Robby
Yeah Robby :p ... Although I have to say I fear for Team Roco. I mean really... think about the ridicule and judgment Poor Bootenrally will have to face. :no:

Robby Johnson
May. 4, 2006, 10:19 AM
He's so unpredictable.

3dazey
May. 4, 2006, 10:21 AM
Yikes. Okay, well I guess I understand how you feel in some respect, but when a horse has been around that much and understands his job thoroughly it certainly can look like all-business when out on the course. Those are the ones who probably need to be on national teams, yes? :yes: But I have to say I've seen Dan at his first of/early season outings for the past 3 or 4 years, and he can be quite a....ummm....handful, to say the least! He really does still think it's fun. Last year or the year before he dumped Kim in xc warm-up (little devil), and then ran by a show jump while they were trying to sort out exactly who was in control. I have been out walking xc when he has gone and the look in his eye is just priceless...so we know riding him is still no cake-walk - it's just that Kim is riding him. God in heaven, if I were to try and ride him you'd have your exciting moments out on course without a doubt (if I could even get him in the start box!) :lol:

My own horse used to be a holy terror in the box and we'd do our share of wrestling out on course. But with time and seasoning I learned how to make the box easier on both of us, and we agreed to stop disagreeing on course if I promised to leave him alone and let him do his job. Bigger and more technical fences certainly helped with that.

I guess in my typical long-winded way I'm saying don't stop enjoying the workman-like performances just because they are workman-like. That shows evidence of partnership, focus and experience, all of which are beautiful things. A really good round should look easy, even at the 4* level, but does not denote overtraining or a lack of enthusiasm in any way.

Robby Johnson
May. 4, 2006, 10:29 AM
Bravo, 3dazey! Bravo! Beautifully put!

Robby