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LauraKY
Jan. 17, 2014, 09:07 AM
I have some concerns with the No Kill Movement. Although it's a laudable effort, I'm beginning to be a bit concerned about how they get to their no kill numbers.

For instance, a friend of mine just posted a request for transport from Louisville to Chicago because the no kill shelter is full and she's been told there's a shortage of adoptable dogs in Chicago.

I'm fully aware that there is an unwanted pet problem in Chicago as well. What's going on?

http://www.chicagonow.com/raining-cats-dogs/2014/01/the-myth-of-a-chicago-puppy-shortage/

Casey09
Jan. 17, 2014, 09:46 AM
My only comment is based on the picture of the KC Pet Project at the bottom. They have done something I (and many others) thought was impossible. That group took over the city, open admission shelter. It serves an urban area and a number of the dogs are pit bulls or pit bull mixes. The shelter is located in a dilapidated old building in a bad area. They have drastically increased adoption rates through a satellite adoption location and adopter friendly policies and procedures. If anyone in the area is looking for a dog, cat, or another type of animal, I would encourage them to check this shelter out.

wendy
Jan. 17, 2014, 09:48 AM
read again- shortage of PUPPIES, not pets. Most dogs who end up in shelters are age 6 months to 3 years, and no one wants them. They want PUPPIES, aka 8 week to 12 week old critters, many of whom will get dumped in turn when they stop being puppies.
Same with our area- shelters are full of dumped adolescents, no one wants them, and they end up importing puppies from the south.

LauraKY
Jan. 17, 2014, 09:58 AM
Yes, but the rescue is not moving puppies, they are moving dogs.

Bluey
Jan. 17, 2014, 10:11 AM
I can say, when the no-kill shelters started up, I was helping in our local animal control shelter.
We watched as those with the no-kill labels were getting all kinds of donations and grants right and left from all kinds of places, foundations and such and practically running a dog warehouse with that money.

One lady doing so, with 60 dogs, said "try it, it paid better than farming".:eek:
She had a table by us in our Muttfest days and adopted a few dogs a year only, they were her meal ticket thru running the non-profit paid for by donations and foundation grants and she liked them, why keep adopting them out and replacing them with unknown ones.

We were looking at those no-kill shelters and, admitting at least their dogs were not dead, well, some of those warehoused for many years, as they were too aggressive or otherwise unadoptable, to us, they were using the place of a dog that was being euthanized that could have had a chance to be adopted if we had their kind of money to keep them around more than a few days, money they took away from us with their no-kill label.
Not only that, we were their dumping ground to send people to because they were always full.
One had adoption hours of 2 to 4 pm on Tuesdays.
No wonder they didn't adopt many dogs.:rolleyes:

I am sure there are plenty of no-kill shelters out there that really do a great job, but they still are sending their overflow to the ones that then have to euthanize them, so they really are not that much of a "no-kill" shelter as they want to appear.:no:

What we need to realize is that the world is not perfect and is not going to be perfect.
There are always going to be abusers, abused, poor and those in dire circumstances, for all kinds of reasons, humans and other animals.

We need to work to make those the least we can make them and, understanding there will always be some of that, work at programs to help with that.

Eliminating this or that to avoid that nothing is perfect, like animal rights extremist do wanting to eliminate uses of animals, or as some of them say and sadly mean it, absurd as it seems, eliminate humans and then we would not have those problems.
Well, where does that make any sense?:confused:

No-kill labels are really not much more than a marketing ploy for donations and a feel good way to help some dogs, while ignoring the reality that not all dogs can or will or should be adopted to the general public and that warehousing dogs may not be the best use of those resources.

That money is better spent in programs like the Turken shelter program, that gives suitable dogs time to be evaluated, have some training and so a better chance of being adopted and more important, make the carefully thought out adoption work for all, the family and dog.

Others evidently disagree.

Casey09
Jan. 17, 2014, 10:44 AM
I am sure there are plenty of no-kill shelters out there that really do a great job, but they still are sending their overflow to the ones that then have to euthanize them

In many cases, but KC Pet Project is still open admission. There open admission no kill shelters. Obviously if a dog is too aggressive to be placed, euthanasia is the right choice.

LauraKY
Jan. 17, 2014, 10:52 AM
In many cases, but KC Pet Project is still open admission. There open admission no kill shelters. Obviously if a dog is too aggressive to be placed, euthanasia is the right choice.

I'm going to have to agree with Bluey. I'm finding many of those that are still open admission require an appointment to surrender a dog and a fee.

Bluey
Jan. 17, 2014, 10:53 AM
In many cases, but KC Pet Project is still open admission. There open admission no kill shelters. Obviously if a dog is too aggressive to be placed, euthanasia is the right choice.

Yes, but is that then a true "no-kill" to be advertised as such, to compete for donations and grants with the rest of us?

clint
Jan. 17, 2014, 11:05 AM
I love the idea of No Kill. However, until there is wholesale spaying and neutering, I think it is impossible. The non-public shelters don't have to take every animal surrendered; they can take what has a reasonable chance of being adopted. In the middle of kitten season, public shelters are overwhelmed with new born and bottle baby kittens, and they have to be put down, as there aren't the resources to care for them. That applies to puppies as well, although not quite the seasonal volume. They also have to take special needs, and dogs with poor temperaments.

moonriverfarm
Jan. 17, 2014, 11:35 AM
I volunteer foster for three incredible rescues. They pull adoptable dogs from kill shelters if they feel they can place the dogs. I just got five Chihuahuas from a horrid breeder and all but one were adopted in a week. I think what they do is miraculous. There is no way we can ever be totally no-kill unless every dog or cat was neutered at birth. I carry a bag of dry dog food in my truck and constantly stop and feed feral dogs. THAT is the problem, folks. Span and neuter your pets, rescue from shelters and support the ones that do great things. Euthanasia is not the worst thing that can happen to a dog, believe me. I support it if done with love, and by injection. Gassing is another thing, reminiscent of Auschwitz. So very wrong.

Mara
Jan. 17, 2014, 12:23 PM
What I find annoying is that some rescues snatch the most adoptable dogs from the shelters. Some (not all) then have a list of requirements for potential adopters that rivals a background screen for employment with the CIA. Still more charge ridiculous "adoption fees".

LauraKY
Jan. 17, 2014, 12:32 PM
What I find annoying is that some rescues snatch the most adoptable dogs from the shelters. Some (not all) then have a list of requirements for potential adopters that rivals a background screen for employment with the CIA. Still more charge ridiculous "adoption fees".

You mean the breed rescues? Yes we do. We snatch them, we vet them and we do a background screen and and follow-ups. You know why, because 6 months after an adoption (without follow-up and screening), one out of every 10 animals has either been returned or is gone (rehomed, lost, dumped).

High fees? When it includes spay/neuter, all vaccinations and microchip, it's probably less expensive than a do it yourself adoption.

***We take the seniors, the sick and the injured too. The adoption fees for the young and healthy help support the vet fees for the old, sick and injured.

Mara
Jan. 17, 2014, 12:38 PM
You mean the breed rescues? Yes we do. We snatch them, we vet them and we do a background screen and and follow-ups. You know why, because 6 months after an adoption (without follow-up and screening), one out of every 10 animals has either been returned or is gone (rehomed, lost, dumped).

High fees? When it includes spay/neuter, all vaccinations and microchip, it's probably less expensive than a do it yourself adoption.

Not always the breed rescues - there are a couple around here who keep eyes out for any puppies/young dogs with good temperaments. If it would make a good family dog - these rescues go for it.

Big_Grey_hunter
Jan. 17, 2014, 12:56 PM
read again- shortage of PUPPIES, not pets. Most dogs who end up in shelters are age 6 months to 3 years, and no one wants them. They want PUPPIES, aka 8 week to 12 week old critters, many of whom will get dumped in turn when they stop being puppies.
Same with our area- shelters are full of dumped adolescents, no one wants them, and they end up importing puppies from the south.

No, quite a few northern shelters take in adult dogs from the south. Our border collie/hound mix came from west virginia with his sister as a 1 year old. They came with a group of about 15 other dogs. Poor dog had spent 7 months in a shelter! He obviously was not very adoptable in the south, but we adopted him within 2 weeks of him coming to our local shelter. His sister had already been adopted.


I like shelters that have no time limit, but not strict no-kill shelters. IMO, aggressive dogs or dogs that need $$$$ treatments should be humanely euthanized, opening up spots and money to bring in new, more adoptable dogs. It drives me crazy to see a shelter trying to raise thousands of dollars for one dog. Think of how many dogs could be helped with that money!

Our local shelter keeps animals for as long it takes. Often times, dogs or cats that are there for long periods of time (8+months) will end up being adopted by a volunteer, or go on TV.

x
Jan. 17, 2014, 02:20 PM
You know, if everyone wants puppies, not dogs, why don't they get small dogs that stay puppy-like? That was my sister's biggest complaint about my small dogs...to her they still acted like puppies, and she didn't like that. (She has working breed dogs). I know I like little dogs--my current one is a cocker spaniel, and he's about the biggest I would want to go--and I love the fact that he still loves to play with his toys, and sits on the couch with me, etc. When I had my Chihuahua I loved that he was little and cuddly and liked to sit in my lap. It would seem that if people want puppies because they are little and cute, they should pick dogs that stay that way, then there wouldn't be so many unwanted ones.

Ibex
Jan. 17, 2014, 02:34 PM
I'm not a fan of the no kill shelters. I used to be, until I went to adopt a cat. Elderly, maimed, unhappy warehoused animals living in a 100 cat colony that STANK. And this is a so called reputable shelter. And they gave me a hard time about wanting to adopt because I chose to put down an elderly cat with kidney failure and a poor prognosis before he became completely miserable instead of fighting to the bitter end.

I ended up adopting from another program that actually brings animals up from the states, fosters them, and then sends them out to pet store adoption programs.

JanM
Jan. 17, 2014, 02:36 PM
There are two rescues with no kill shelters near where I used to live. One had almost exclusively puppy mill animals, the adults that were the breeding animals, and when they were too old, the rescue took them. I think this only encouraged the mill to keep going. The second was great, but also no kill, and they had a few animals their entire life, kept in groups, outdoors (but in good conditions, please don't think I object to that), and some were there for years. I know of one that was returned by adopters many times, and the rescue finally stopped even trying to adopt her out. I don't think an animal should spend it's entire life in a wire cage. I know it was a good environment otherwise, but I don't think a sick, or unadoptable animal should spend it's entire life in a kennel like that. Either adopt them out, or put them down humanely.

Bluey
Jan. 17, 2014, 02:41 PM
Our adoption lady in our shelter used to tell us that yes, the no-kill shelters were not the best way to go about this and took resources the rest need, but that they were also people doing what they felt they had to do, the way they had to do it, for what they believed.

That didn't mean the ones that took advantage of that were ok, but the ones that honestly were running no-kill shelters were doing good work, if in our opinion, misguided.

In reality, it is incredible that we have this situation where millions of small animals are unwanted, needing controlling and so many end up just being killed.:dead:

meupatdoes
Jan. 17, 2014, 02:44 PM
I fostered for a rescue in Buffalo NY and 3 out of the 5 that I fostered were out of state transports. One came from Miami and was literally on his last walk to the gas chamber when he was pulled (I kept this one), and two came from WV. Those were big transports, I think 21 dogs came up from Florida and 12 came from WV. The rescue placed them all.

The other two that I fostered came from the city shelter and were deemed unadoptable by them but I had no problems with them and they were soon happily adopted.

Transports do happen.

shayaalliard
Jan. 17, 2014, 03:42 PM
At least around here, "no kill" shelters have two issues
1 always full rarely adopt out
2 they are no kill of ADOPTABLE animals- and they get to decide who is adoptable. too young, too old, too ugly, too agressive, wrong breed, too hyper, etc etc are all "unadoptable" and don't count as kills

clint
Jan. 17, 2014, 05:51 PM
At least around here, "no kill" shelters have two issues
1 always full rarely adopt out
2 they are no kill of ADOPTABLE animals- and they get to decide who is adoptable. too young, too old, too ugly, too agressive, wrong breed, too hyper, etc etc are all "unadoptable" and don't count as kills

Those are the ones that get taken to the city and county shelters in this area, which usually have a fairly high kill rate as they have no option to select. To be fair though, no kill shelters that I know try to adopt out as fast as possible, and bring in more animals as they have space.

Arrows Endure
Jan. 17, 2014, 09:30 PM
I work for a no-kill shelter. Check us out, www.safeanimalshelter.com.

We do pick and choose our intakes WHEN WE CAN. Which we often can't. We pull from kill shelters, and we take in owner surrenders and some strays (not many, we don't have a good set up for stray quarantine). We take in puppies, pit bulls, big black dogs, old dogs, injured dogs, and dogs no one wants. We train them, clean them up, treat their heartworms, get them healthy, and find them homes. We adopt out anywhere between 70 and 100 pets a MONTH. In 2012, we adopted out a total of 1045 animals (about 60% dogs).

No kill does not (have) to mean warehoused dogs. It also doesn't mean we "pick" all the good dogs from the other shelters, or that we have stupid adoption conditions (although I must admit, one guy told me they were asinine yesterday). Our adoption requirements are actually pretty simple. Everyone in the household must agree to the dog. If you have other dogs, they have to come to the shelter so we can introduce everyone. The other pets in the house must be up to date on vaccines, heartworm, and spayed or neutered (unless there is a legitimate medical condition as to why they aren't neutered). If you rent, we require proof that you are allowed to have pets and we need to know if there are any breed restrictions. Finally, we do not allow people to adopt cats if they are planning on declawing. I think that's pretty fair.

Currently at our shelter, we have one puppy that has a broken leg that we took in (it was a stray-probably a dump in a rural area). We have one ancient boston with a skin problem that is being treated. We have two starved pit bulls (one with puppies) that we are rehabbing.

No kill can work, it just has to be done right. We do make mistakes, we have issues, and I'm sure there are things we can improve on (does anyone know how to contain a URI in the cat rooms? I'd love to know....)

LauraKY
Jan. 17, 2014, 09:45 PM
I work for a no-kill shelter. Check us out, www.safeanimalshelter.com.

We do pick and choose our intakes WHEN WE CAN. Which we often can't. We pull from kill shelters, and we take in owner surrenders and some strays (not many, we don't have a good set up for stray quarantine). We take in puppies, pit bulls, big black dogs, old dogs, injured dogs, and dogs no one wants. We train them, clean them up, treat their heartworms, get them healthy, and find them homes. We adopt out anywhere between 70 and 100 pets a MONTH. In 2012, we adopted out a total of 1045 animals (about 60% dogs).

No kill does not (have) to mean warehoused dogs. It also doesn't mean we "pick" all the good dogs from the other shelters, or that we have stupid adoption conditions (although I must admit, one guy told me they were asinine yesterday). Our adoption requirements are actually pretty simple. Everyone in the household must agree to the dog. If you have other dogs, they have to come to the shelter so we can introduce everyone. The other pets in the house must be up to date on vaccines, heartworm, and spayed or neutered (unless there is a legitimate medical condition as to why they aren't neutered). If you rent, we require proof that you are allowed to have pets and we need to know if there are any breed restrictions. Finally, we do not allow people to adopt cats if they are planning on declawing. I think that's pretty fair.

Currently at our shelter, we have one puppy that has a broken leg that we took in (it was a stray-probably a dump in a rural area). We have one ancient boston with a skin problem that is being treated. We have two starved pit bulls (one with puppies) that we are rehabbing.

No kill can work, it just has to be done right. We do make mistakes, we have issues, and I'm sure there are things we can improve on (does anyone know how to contain a URI in the cat rooms? I'd love to know....)

Sure it can work (all the rescues I know are no kill for instance), but can it work and still be open admission? Don't we still have to have open admission shelters?

Here's my concern, and why I posted to begin with. A "no kill" shelter in Indiana is full and is recruiting drivers to transport dogs to Chicago. Chicago has an unwanted dog problem of their own, they have shelters that are full too? What's going on, are dogs just shifted from shelter to shelter?

Bluey
Jan. 17, 2014, 09:52 PM
Sure it can work (all the rescues I know are no kill for instance), but can it work and still be open admission? Don't we still have to have open admission shelters?

Here's my concern, and why I posted to begin with. A "no kill" shelter in Indiana is full and is recruiting drivers to transport dogs to Chicago. Chicago has an unwanted dog problem of their own, they have shelters that are full too? What's going on, are dogs just shifted from shelter to shelter?

As we found out when 200+ dogs were flown in here from the New Orleans hurricane, the general public flocked to adopt those poor hurricane dogs by the hundreds.
When those dogs were adopted in the first two weeks, with much ado about it in the TV, stories and such, the rest of those wanting to adopt were sent to the local shelters.
Well, they didn't want a dog any more.
Only a "hurricane rescue" is what they wanted.:rolleyes:

Maybe something similar is going on there, people want to "rescue" those dogs because they carry a history, they came from here or there, but not so much any more if it is a local shelter dog?:confused:

Coyoteco
Jan. 17, 2014, 10:14 PM
No kill does not mean that the shelter kills unadoptable dogs and cats. That is a kill shelter that is lying about what it does. That was a big issue here some years ago - the kill shelters started misrepresenting themselves.

The attacks on the no-kills shelters is very harmful to animals. No kill shelters are not warehouses of animals in small cages or kennels. They are not pick-and-choose facilities. As for adopting out, the term for favored no-kill shelters is "sanctuary" shelters. These are shelters that provide a great service to animals that have no where to go. The services provided to terminally ill dogs is called "hospice" care. Often a person will adopt from a high kill facility rather than a no-kill because the animal at the no-kill is safer where the animal at the kill facility is at immediate risk - so, of course, adoption rates at no-kills suffer.

As soon as a shelter person says that animals are better off dead than in other situations, I lose respect for them. That is a very poor position from which to start in your assessment on an animal.

In my experience, no-kill shelters provide a lot of space for the animals where kill facilities do not.

Ideally, they would work together to place all animals in either homes, hospice, foster and rehabilitative situations or sanctuaries (not adopted out). Until the egos of animal people can be put aside this is a slow progression.

Changing the nomenclature and playing with words are not beneficial to the animals - the purpose of that is to benefit the various groups of people. "Open admission" is the most egregious of those.

2tempe
Jan. 19, 2014, 07:08 PM
I was on the board of a somewhat rural shelter in NE Ohio that will not euth. animals due to age, space or special needs. A few are euthanized every year due to bad temperaments (but not before attempting to solve the problem) or illnesses that cannot be cured or managed. Those numbers were reported regularly to the board.(If memory serves, maybe 8-10 dogs/year) They were strongly focused on their adoption numbers, worked hard to make the dogs (and cats) successful and marketed their shelter heavily to draw potential adopters. The nature of their location is that they often had some empty dog cages. First step was to work w/ area animal control (which would euth when full) to help them by taking some dogs. Also they would take dogs from some of the area's more urban rescues if those dogs were better adopted into a rural situation. They have in recent years picked up some from further afield. Always to keep the cages full. And they will take puppies from other locations. Their adoption rates for dogs run 500-600 per year. Cat adoptions running in the 1000/year range.

Here in Florida there are a significant # of rescue groups who operate purely thru foster homes. They go to local animal control locations and pull dogs whenever they have room. I got a beautiful smallish dog from one of them, and when he left, they headed back out the next day to find another that was at risk. The fee was not "cheap" but they showed me his vet record - shots, neutering, some infection treatment, worming HW test, flea treatment. The bill came to about $40 less than I paid, and they fed him for 6 weeks. Perfectly reasonable to me.

Like any other "business" some shelters are well run, some are not. The good ones can raise a lot of $ and move a lot of dogs/cats. They report their #'s and shout their successes. They have management and staff who work for solutions and are committed to their responsibilities.

MsM
Jan. 20, 2014, 08:39 AM
I used to supervise local municipal shelters ("dog pounds"). Their job was enforcement of the dog laws and taking care of strays. There was usually pressure from the municipality to keep costs down. They HAD to take in any stray, roaming dog.
Most tried very hard to place dogs. But when the shelter was full or the unvaccinated dog started to get sick, it had to go. Again, most tried very hard to network with rescues, use TV and now internet and do what they could to get adoptions.
What created bad feelings was when someone from a "no-kill rescue" would come to the shelter and act superior about being "no-kill". Some of these people would say things like "How could you ever put a dog down? This is horrible! I can't stand it!" But then they wouldn't take the most needy dogs. And too often they couldn't even take very adoptable dogs because they were full. Happened way too much.
At best, the open-admission shelters and no-kill rescues work together to do what is best for the dogs without either putting down the role of the other.
BTW my friend just adopted an adult dog brought in from the South. Most of these were smaller dogs that aren't found as much in this area. However even the bigger dogs got some adoptions from the "Adoption Fair" Even better, the local shelters also had available dogs at the Fair.

LauraKY
Jan. 20, 2014, 09:05 AM
MsM, I've noticed that...some of the "No Kill" people have declared war on the shelters that do have to put animals down due to space. I don't understand why they can't work together to place the most animals possible.

JanM
Jan. 20, 2014, 09:27 AM
The county shelter in Dothan, AL used to have an organization pull small dogs, and take them to Florida for adoptions. Smaller dogs are very popular in retiree areas. That was definitely a win-win situation for the dogs, and for the shelter.

Bluey
Jan. 20, 2014, 09:30 AM
MsM, I've noticed that...some of the "No Kill" people have declared war on the shelters that do have to put animals down due to space. I don't understand why they can't work together to place the most animals possible.

Maybe because all depend on the same donating public and grant giving foundations?

Coyoteco
Jan. 20, 2014, 10:54 AM
MsM, I've noticed that...some of the "No Kill" people have declared war on the shelters that do have to put animals down due to space. I don't understand why they can't work together to place the most animals possible.

This is the opposite of my observation. Many kill facilities resent no-kill shelters and are very aggressive towards them to the detriment of the animals. Usually the kill facilities are more financially and politically powerful. It's about more than just money, though that certainly is part of their resentment.

MsM
Jan. 20, 2014, 11:58 AM
Hmmm... I don't know what "kill facilities" you have. Of Non-profits, the vast majority are or pretend to be "no-kill". Just makes for better donor appeal. I only know of one Humane Society that frankly admits to euthing unsuitable animals.
The shelters that have to euth are generally the municipal pounds totally or primarily funded by the city or town. They cant expand to hold more animals because they don't want to put them down and they cant refuse to take in strays, abused animals etc.
Many of the municipal shelters have good relations with rescues. But there are "no-kill rescues" that seem more interested in being morally superior than in actually helping.