? for my fellow "My horse has/had Lyme Disease" club members. AT MY WITS END!!!

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu is being treated for Lyme for the 2nd time within a year. It's now day 11 on the oral doxy, and I've only seen VERY MINIMAL improvement. How long until you guys saw improvement. I can't remember how long it took last time and I have to say, that this time it's worse than last time. :sigh: I put a call into the vet to just give an update and I'm waiting on a call back.

[cosmos mom]

I began to see improvement within 2 days. We are now finished 10days of IV and on day 12 of 30 for the oral doxy. He is back in light to moderate work and has showed minimal stiffness these past 10-14 days. Occasionally , he looks sore in a hip or shoulder- so we just walk and trot a little on those days. Try adding Ledum Palustre to his regemin. I think it was discussed in the previous thread.

[Posting Trot]

At day 10 I think she didn't seem any better and had previously seemed somewhat worse. By day 14 she seemed significantly better.

Good luck.

[Boston Chicken]

I saw a difference within a few days - maybe 4-5 tops. Did they test him for other things aside from Lyme? What are his symptoms today? Jingling for a speedy recovery!

[Kiwayu]

Boston Chicken-

Kiwayu is still sooo stiff and grumpy. His attitude has improved a little, but still very irritable. You can tell he hurts and he's depressed. I feel so horrible just watching him knowing I can't do anything more than give him his medications. I try to groom and just hang out with him, but he doesn't want to be touched.

[Luie's Person]

Luie was really crabby until towards the end of the doxy treatment, @ ~ 3 weeks.... I think we did the ledum longer than that. He was sore and grumpy for a long time.....He was out of work/sore somewhere for about 1 1/2 -2 months. It was hard to wait it out!! Good Luck!!

[rideswithlyme]

Well, my 2 cents being a human that has been treating my lyme and co-infections (babesia and bartonella) that you tend to feel worse when starting a med or a new med because the "dye off" of the spirochetes - what in humans is called a "herx". Since horses cannot voice how the feel they don't have research on herxes for horses. Erlichiosis is a common tick borne co-infection with equestrians (so I take that to mean horses as well). Hang in there, just give it time. Doxy has side effects and some are more sensitive. The longer the lyme went untreated the longer the bugs had to make themselves comfy. The spiros also have a cycle and every few weeks you will feel ickier from their cycle. If your horse is a mare, there is a lot of studies that show drops in estrogen make the bugs active (for humans).

Sorry if that was too much, I am not a doc or a vet but just a person that has horses and has lyme. But I would say just be patient, try to get the horse to drink lots of water to get the toxins out. I truly hope things improve in a couple of days. Best.

[LoriO]

I may be joining this club soon. Vet drew blood on Saturday to test for Lyme on Miss Liz. Hopefully I should hear the results soon!

[Kiwayu]

LoriO- I truly hope you don't join this club. It's horrible!!! We won't even go into the expense part either...:rolleyes:

Kiwayu was EXTREMELY grumpy last night. I couldn't go near him without him trying to attack me. This is so not my horse. :(

[LoriO]

LoriO- I truly hope you don't join this club. It's horrible!!! We won't even go into the expense part either...:rolleyes:

Kiwayu was EXTREMELY grumpy last night. I couldn't go near him without him trying to attack me. This is so not my horse. :(

Kiwayu, I am torn between wanting the results to be positive just so I know what is wrong and negative becasue I really don't want it to be Lyme!!

My mare Liz is usually very well mannered but she she has started kicking and nipping when being groomed and even tried to bite her saddle last week when I went to ride!! All of this is so unlike her. Vet is leaning towards it being Lyme too, I hope I get the results back soon.

As for the costs, I have a feeling I may be selling some of my horse book collection on eBay to help pay for all of this!

[Luie's Person]

Poor Kiwayu...Poor Kristen! Is he just grumpy or really sore - or both?
Thinking back, the biggest turning-point for Luie came with the Robaxin (muscle relaxer). He was sooo incredibly uncomfortable - I think he couldn't relax at all & just stressed himself into feeling worse. Or maybe it *is* the die-off cycle as described by RideswithLyme. Anyway, he exhibited IMMEDIATE relief from the worst symptoms w/ the robaxin, and then everything began to s-l-o-w-l-y improve day by day... at last, I could visit with him a little, stroke him with a soft flat palm, feed him alfalfa cube soup and not worry about being grumped out of his 'house'. He hated to be brushed for the longest time..... soft flat palm or a towel used in long strokes was ok...

nasty, nasty disease.....

[vxf111]

This is starting to sound familiar... Shane had lyme last summer and since then he's had a few bouts where something was just not right. *sigh* vet comes out on Thursday. :(

[LoriO]

Well, It's official, vet just called and Miss Liz has Lyme. ARGHHHHHHHHH!!!! Well, I guess I am now a member of the club :no: .

Picking up the Doxy tomorrow.

[Kiwayu]

LoriO- Welcome to the club. :uhoh: How many days are you doing the doxy for to start with?


Luie's Person- He's grumpy AND really sore.

I spoke to the vet this morning. If no improvement in attitude/stiffness by Monday she's coming out to do more blood tests for EPM and other stuff, and give him some more drugs for the pain. We didn't get into detail about what exactly she wants to give him, but that I'm to call Monday if no better. By Monday we'll be at day 17, so we'll see... :sigh:

[LoriO]

We are doing the Doxy for 30 days. I just have to double check her with the weight tape to see how many pills she will be getting. Right now it looks like it will be about 45 pills twice a day. Dang that is a lot of pills!!!

Go figure, my husband bought a set of 2 really neat mini food processors a couple of months ago and the 2nd has been sitting in my basement. Hmmm, guess I now have a use for it!!!

[Kiwayu]

LoriO- You shouldn't have to grind the pills up. Kiwayu gets 50 pills in a handfull of grain with a little bit of applesauce and he gobbles them all up. He also not one for eatting strange things. I don't like grinding meds up if I don't have to because you tend to loose some medication in the grinder. How big is your mare that she's only getting 45 pills 2x a day?

[LoriO]

I am going to try and see if she will eat the pills in her food without grinding them first but if I have to at least I am prepared. It is amazing how good she is at finding pills in her food!

AS for the pill amount, that still may change. We are estimating about a 1000 lbs for her. I have to double check tomorrow with the weight tape to make sure and then check back in with my vet on the pill amount.

[Boston Chicken]

LoriO - sorry she's got Lyme, but at least you know what it is, and it IS treatable. Most experienced people here will tell you to keep her on Doxy for a long time to really kick it. Best of luck to you :)

[LoriO]

Thanks BC, we are already planning on doing a 30 day run so hopefully that will get rid of it. I am very lucky that my BM has dealt with treating horses for Lyme before so she is familiar with everything that needs to be done and with what to monitor for side effects from the meds.

I can't wait to get my sweet natured cheerful girl back again.

[Posting Trot]

LoriO--Don't grind the doxy, trust me on this one.

The ground up doxy is *very* bitter; the intact pills have some kind of coating on them that makes them much more palatable.

My horse would eat the doxy out of my hand; now granted she's not the world's pickiest eater, but she has been known to turn up her nose at powdered bute in her feed when she's needed it.

[Janet]

If your horse is a mare, there is a lot of studies that show drops in estrogen make the bugs active (for humans).That is VERY interesting, and might be part of the explanation of Music's sensitivity to day length.

[Mary in Area 1]

Only 30 days won't do it. Trust me. I think at this point, most people agree that 90 days is the minimum for the doxy to really kick it. Otherwise you end up like Kiwayu and it comes back WORSE the second time around.

[LoriO]

90 days???? Yikes!!! Guess I'll need to talk to my vet about that.

[Kiwayu]

30 days DEFINITELY will NOT cut it. Heck, the 45 days I did this past Fall didn't even cut it. :no: Let me tell you, it comes back NASTY the second time around!!!!

[Luie's Person]

ok..I need to go back and look at the vet sheets, but there's NO WAY Luie was on Doxy for more than 30 days....actually, I *think* it was 3 weeks. Granted he was getting the Ledum at the same time..... I'll look at his records tomorrow and post.

At the time, I spoke with our vet at length about just this issue: she readily admitted there is no good *standard* treatment for Lyme. Everyone is still trying to figure it out....I'm just so thankful that he's healthy and happy now. I wish this for all your horses.....

[Kiwayu]

Luie- My vet told me that there's no standard treatment either and that this disease is NOT very well known. All I know is that obviously 45 days wasn't enough the first time, I can't see it being enough the second time. My horse is one of those animals that doesn't seem to follow the "book" with anything. My vet agrees. :sigh:

[LoriO]

Kiwayu, from reading yourposts, it does seem that your horse does like to do things different from the rest!

We started Liz today on the Doxy. Thankfully she gets beet pulp as part of her feed so it was easy to mix it in with that and she never noticed it was there :winkgrin: .

The vet is coming out next week to finish spring shots and also to bring me more Doxy. I will talk to her then about going longer then 30 days.

[Kiwayu]

LoriO- I'd love for you to post about the progress or issues you're experiencing with Liz. It's nice to have a support group. I could really use one right now because it seems like I'm just having the worst luck with everything in my life at the moment. :cry:

[Mary in Area 1]

Well, my horse is lame, my barn burned down and my best friend died of breast cancer. This all happened in the last 6 months. (True)

Feel better now?

[Boston Chicken]

Mary, sorry to hear that. I hope things get better.

- gillian

[Kiwayu]

Mary- My horse has Lyme, and my Mom was just diagnosed with Breast Cancer yesterday.

[Mary in Area 1]

Oh shi*, Kiwayu. I'm sorry. That stinks. At least the Lyme is treatable, and my mom is a long term breast cancer survivor.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

[cosmos mom]

I posted this before but, here goes:

http://www.alchemistshoppe.com/index.html

This company makes up a Doxycycline syrup specifically for horses that they will ship to you. The horses like the taste and it is only a 20 ML dose 2x's a day- I just squirt it in the feed and Cosmo licks it up! You just have to have your vet call in the perscription and they will formulate it specifically for you! It was $340 for a 30 day supply including shipping.

[rigoletto]

I'm sorry to hear about what you all are going through. I have a horse that had Lyme and know of a couple of others with Lyme. I have found that the length of treatment with doxy depends upon the level of reaction in the lyme test. The shortest treatment protocol that was effective for the horses was 6 weeks. I know of one that was treated for an additional 6 weeks because he was still mildly symptomatic I have been told by one of our vets and found through research that the organism can lie dormant in various tissues in the body (muscle, nerve, etc) and that the horse, dog, etc can have flareups during times of stress. I have not had a horse with a flare up, but do have a dog that had a lyme test that was strongly reactive that has had flare ups. We also give our horses (and dogs) on doxy probiotics.

[Chief2]

On the geldings we always saw improvement within a week, and scores were always below 5000. With the old mare (30+) We never saw improvement, and her score was 23,000. However, she also had severe arthritis in her hocks, so that could have masked it. Her temperament never changed before or after treatment--always sweet, easy going, and spooky.

[LoriO]

Hi folks, just thought I would pop in with a quick update.

We started Liz on the Doxy and so far so good. She has been handleing it well with no signs yet of any stomache problems. Granted it is early but still thumbs up for now.

Of course just to add to things and make things more interesting it looks like she is developing an abcess in her right front foot. I guess dealing with Lyme wasn't enough for her, she had to make things more challenging. Now to start the hoof soaks.

Horses....can't live with them and you can't live without them!!!!

[marta]

kipper had lyme 5 years ago or so. then she went lame (related? we'll never know for sure). fast forward to this year and she just completed her 2nd limited distance ride in a month (30 miles last weekend and 25 miles 4 weeks ago). there is hope. she was awfully cranky about being touched. we only treated for 30 days. don't forget the probiotics to keep their stomach flora healthy.
lots of luck!

[Kiwayu]

Update on Kiwayu: He's starting to show some signs of improvement. Thank god, considering we're on day 17 of the doxy. Still stiff/lame, but looking happier. Not as grouchy, but still doesn't want to be touched in places. Hopefully we'll continue to improve! :yes:

[Luie's Person]

YES!!! Keep it up! Luie sez celebrate:....'carrots for everyone'....

[LoriO]

Well, I spoke to soon. Lizzy didn't want to eat her grain tonight (although she was eating her hay) and was acting like her tummy was bothering her. Nothing major but still not quite right.

I am going to double check with the vet in the AM but I think I am going to stop the doxy until the probiotics I ordered arrive. Hopefully that will be in the next day or two. My poor girl!!!

[Kiwayu]

LoriO- Kiwayu had a few days where his tummy was bothering him even on the probiotics. Doxy does irritate the gut. I had given Kiwayu U-gard for a few days along with the probiotics. Just remember a lot of things cannot mix with the doxy so they must be given at a different meal.

[Janet]

Well, I spoke to soon. Lizzy didn't want to eat her grain tonight (although she was eating her hay) and was acting like her tummy was bothering her. Nothing major but still not quite right.

I am going to double check with the vet in the AM but I think I am going to stop the doxy until the probiotics I ordered arrive. Hopefully that will be in the next day or two. My poor girl!!! See what your vet says, but I would think it would be more important to keep up the doxy.

Remember that every time you "miss a dose" or stop before the completion of the sequence, you are contributing to the "survival of the fittest (resistant to the medication)" bugs.

[Iride]

Cornell has been recommending treating Lyme-infected horses first with Tetra IV (catheter) for one or two weeks I think, and to then follow that up with the oral Doxy.

They say the initial intensive Tetra treatment right away, followed by the oral Doxy, is a more effective treatment than oral Doxy alone. Of course, it is inconvenient to have a vet come in every day to administer the Tetra via catheter, but if it works, it's well worth it. Many horses do respond well to the doxy alone. I suppose it might depend upon the severity of the infection (?).

Also - after treatment with either antibiotic, the blood should not be retested again until a few months have passed. The titers often show a rise during and soon after treatment even when it's working, and you won't really know where you're at unless you wait a period of time before you re-test.

[Boston Chicken]

Iride - my horse had that exact treatment, and it didn't work. Strangely, the cheaper oral teramycin or similar (I'm sure it's not spelled right) worked on him. He was on that for 45 days and it did the trick :)

[Iride]

Wow, BC that is interesting. Glad to hear the oral worked! I guess it goes to show... each horse is an individual and needs to be evaluated and treated as such. Down with Lyme! :mad:

[LoriO]

Well, fingers crossed but she was doing better today. She was standing at the gate clamoring for breakfast since she hadn't eaten her dinner the night before. BM emailed me to let me know she ate dinner tonight too. Whew!!

[HandsomeRansom]

Cornell has been recommending treating Lyme-infected horses first with Tetra IV (catheter) for one or two weeks I think, and to then follow that up with the oral Doxy.

They say the initial intensive Tetra treatment right away, followed by the oral Doxy, is a more effective treatment than oral Doxy alone. Of course, it is inconvenient to have a vet come in every day to administer the Tetra via catheter, but if it works, it's well worth it. Many horses do respond well to the doxy alone. I suppose it might depend upon the severity of the infection (?).

Also - after treatment with either antibiotic, the blood should not be retested again until a few months have passed. The titers often show a rise during and soon after treatment even when it's working, and you won't really know where you're at unless you wait a period of time before you re-test.


I guess its common practice around my area to do the 6 week alternation of tetra and I think its oral doxy.
Administering the tetra in the winter is such a drag though... its so syrupy (is that a word!?) But for my 2 friend's horses who've been dealing with Lymes, they've both responded well with wearing the catheter for a while. We saw improvements in about a week and a half in both of them.

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu update: Today Kiwayu has been on doxy for 21 days and he was a fire breathing dragon. I put him on the lunge line for about 5 minutes just to evaluate his lameness. He wouldn't stop bucking and was troting beautifully in the beginning. Then after 2-3 times around he just fell apart. It was like he hurt so bad and couldn't move anymore. I'll be speaking to the vet in about 5 days to see what our next move is.

[Posting Trot]

I guess I'd just like to suggest a couple of things. IN my experience with my horse, even though she began to feel markedly better after 2 weeks on the doxy, she wasn't 100% for several months after the treatment. She had to be rehabbed because she'd lost muscle, she was still a bit sore (mechanical changes caused by lyme disease but that did not immediately disappear after treatment), etc.

In other words, I am not surprised that he started looking bad after several minutes of bucking and acting like a fool.

It's a good idea to check in with the vet, and even have the vet come back out to evaluate him. But, maybe (and I don't mean to be critical here, just throwing this out as a possibility) you're expecting too much improvement too soon.

[Luie's Person]

It's extremely heartwrenching to see your horse uncomfortable for soooooo long -- all those months: finally getting to the cause, the treatment, the recovery, the rehab.....

There's controversy about every single aspect of this disease, and that simply heightens the frustration. That said, I agree with Posting Trot about not letting our curiosity regarding progress get the better of us. The disease seems to wax and wane too much for random 'checks'. It was absolutely painful for me to have Luie *totally* out of work for 3 months, and then 3-4 months of super gradual, super slo-mo rehab. I think I've posted this before -- I didn't think of doing anything with him until I could palpate and massage his back,hind end and shoulders without getting any negative reaction for an entire week. Lots of false hope during that process, let me tell you!

Good luck! Glad to hear there's improvement happening!

[LoriO]

This has been such a help having this thread to share and discuss what we are going through.

It is because of threads like this that I was able to identify the possible signs of Lyme disease in Lizzy and get her tested early. And to be able to hear what everyone else has experienced during the treatments and the length of time for recovery, well it just makes things so much easier to deal with!!!

Figured since we are bummed out about the Lyme, at least we can be happy about one thing...all the help and support we have gotten here from fellow horse owners dealing with Lyme!

[sid]

I just finished my 3rd round of Doxy for my mare, Hanna, within one year. First time we did 30 days of Doxy and had almost immediate improvement. She relapsed within 2 months. Next time we went 60 days with the Doxy...same thing almost immediate improvement. Relapsed within 4 months. This last round was for 90 days -- this time it took about 10 days for her to go back to "normal".

She has never shown lameness, but grumpy to the point of not wanting to even be groomed -- very girthy and irritable.

If she relapses again after this 90 day Doxy regimen, our plan is to go the tetra IV route. Very, very frustrating.

BTW, her titre wasn't "off the charts", yet it's hard to kick this bug.

[Wicky]

My horse was diagnosed with Lyme last September - he also had acute arthritis of the coffin joint. We treated him with 90 days of doxy and (knock on wood) he has never been better, and early this month two Lyme tests were negative. My vet had horrible (neurologic) Lyme herself, so I trust her judgement with this disease.

[RiverBendPol]

You guys need to treat with as high a dose and for as long as you can possibly convince your vets to allow. 45 pills, 2xday for at least 6 weeks has been our recent norm. It is almost impossible to "get rid of" Lyme disease. Also, be SURE your guys are on serious pro-biotics before, during and after their treatments. Initial treatment of 7-10 days of IV OxyTetracycline is highly recommended nowadays in the tick-filled NorthEast. Personality change (either way) is one of the most important symptoms to look for, along with changing lameness, stiffness, etc.
Knocking on wood, right NOW and for the moment, we seem to be symptom-free here in Maine but I think daughter's beast in Delaware may be the next to join The Club. Again. Naturally, she just sent in entries!:mad:

[sid]

Hanna's first 2 rounds of Doxy were with 50 tabs 2 x day. The last 90-day round was with 70 tabs 2 x day. I put her on a probiotic -- she never had any side effects from the treatment.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed this does the trick!

[Luie's Person]

I can't believe I was so slow in picking up the dog's pain -- but then -- I don't ride him!! (Verrry lucky dog :lol:) Bear had Lyme 2 years ago and was on doxy for 4 weeks, seemingly recovered by end of treatment. He started treatment at an excellent emergency hospital --lyme was discovered during his hospitalization for 'labrador disease' aka eating all manner of anything available. Titre was checked last year - he was fine then....

So this time, I'm having Bear treated by Luie's vet. He's on oral doxy for 3 weeks (*same length of time as Luie*), ledum palustre and pain meds. Hopefully, this will work as completely as it has for Luie. Sheesh! ***Still need to get myself tested*** I can recognize some sympoms. Has this thread made anyone else conscious about their own vulnerability??? Here's to our collective health!

[LoriO]

Since my Dr knows that I ride and have a horse, he has me down to get regularly tested for Lyme disease every year. Smart DR!!!!

[Kim]

My oldie (29), Chutney, had a fever this weekend. The vet came and took blood but seems to think it is ehrlychia rather than Lyme. She had been stiff last week, but now is 100% sound - but has a fever...We started on doxy last night.

[touchstone-]

It sounds like you've gotten a lot of good advice, but I thought I'd throw my experience out there too in case it's reassuring.

I didn't really see improvement in my horse until about week 3 of doxy (55 pills 2x/day). Then he steadily got better. I did not do the Tetra.

Also: I heartily agree with posters who said not to grind the pills. He was much more willing to eat the full ones. I added pancake syrup to his grain to make them stick because he's pretty picky, and a probiotic for good measure.

Good luck! I know how frustrating this can be.

[Kiwayu]

A little Update: Kiwayu was slowly getting better, but as of this morning had a set back. I went down this morning and Kiwayu was having trouble walking behind. He was SO STIFF!!!!! :eek: :no: I checked on him later today and he was still bad, although not as bad. I took him for a walk to see if he'd walk out of it. He tripped a few times and it was like his hind end would buckle a little. I spoke to the vet and she said he could be having a bad day. Told me to check him tomorrow morning, call her with an update and if he's still bad she's coming back out. Lovely...

He's also been COVERED in hives the past 2 days. My poor guy.

[cosmos mom]

I'm sending you jingles Kiwayu!

Cosmo is almost finished with his antibiotics but will stay on probios, and the herbal stuff for a few more weeks. I am doing the "ears test" with him. I ride him as long as or as much as I can, so long as he does not have his ears pinned to the back of his head! He seems much happier in work. I'd say he''' have a string of 5-6 great days, then 1-2 bad days followes by 1-2 not perfect, but good days. I'm just trying not to read too much into the good or the bad days!

[cgray0983]

Hang in there Kiwayu,

Just have to vent too...

Creggan has had two titers taken this season already, both equivocal, can't the d**n disease just be gone...titer negative :mad: ?

[Luie's Person]

CGray: Hope you're treating!!! Those stupid "equivocal" results......If I believed in those ratings Luie would still be sick. I HATE this disease!! It;s not fair that results and symptoms are so all over the board. We need to listen to our animals and do what we can to alleviate the symptoms, hopefully curing the disease once and for all untill the next time. Nervous mother that I am, I always fear treating symptoms, not geting to cure....

THAT fills me with dread.. the NEXT time. What are people doing to avoid a NEW infection? the sonic-gizmo bug thing? Braiding in flea/tick tape? Front line spray every 2 weeks? I worry every day.....

[cgray0983]

Its so frustrating, but Creggan seems to be okay. No lameness, he has always been lazy, even when we got him at 4, so I am not concerned with that. But he has still have rough year.

If I should still be treating, what has everyone done with the "equivocal" results? My vet here in NY says they won't treat him, I con't wait to get home to NH and have my vet check him there. I haven't met anyone here in NY (finger Lakes) that has even come in contact with tthe disease. He picked it up at boarding school with my sister in '04. I am just at a loss as to what to do!

[Boston Chicken]

I don't understand why they "won't treat him" :confused:

[Iride]

Many vets recommend no treatment when there are no clinical symptoms, even if they show active titers. The jury is definitely still out on this as far as I can see... I myself am at a loss as to whether or not to treat my 3 year old who tested positive but has no symptoms. Almost all vets said don't treat unless she does have symptoms. That many horses have been infected and will never have any problems. I just wish there were a long-term study to determine whether this is really true or not. More interest and funding in the veterinary research community is SO needed with regard to equine Lyme. :(

[Boston Chicken]

Sorry - misunderstood. I probably wouldn't treat without symptoms either.

[Janet]

And, conversely, my vet treats when there are symptoms, even if the test results are marginal.

[Iride]

Hi Janet - I'm just curious, does your vet recommend treatment when the results are positive but there are no apparent symptoms?

[Kiwayu]

Another Kiwayu update:

Kiwayu is still stiff and now lame on his right front. WTF??? :eek: :no: Vet is talking with someone from Cornell again, and we're pretty sure he's staying on more doxy (which is what I want). I don't know what to do anymore. :(

[Kiwayu]

Well Kiwayu is going on more doxy and getting retested on Thursday. We want to see how the Lyme is reacting to the doxy. He's still irritable and nasty, not to mention still slightly off. I've been corresponding with a behavioral specialist at Cornell and they're going to look at a video tape of him. Once they evaluate him, they'll recommend a treatment. Lets hope for the best! :yes:

[Janet]

Hi Janet - I'm just curious, does your vet recommend treatment when the results are positive but there are no apparent symptoms? I don't know. I've never been in that situation. When the results were marginal, and there were no symptoms, we didn't treat. But I don't know what he would have said if it had been a strong positive without symptoms.

[MsM]

First the good news: My horse had Lyme about 4 years ago. He was treated with oral doxy for 30 days and recovered without incident. He has not had a recurrance to date! (tho he has had ehrlichiosis, stress fracture, torn suspensory, strained check ligament and scratched cornea!!!)
He had been having foot problems so the diagnosis was unexpected, tho in retrospect his uncharacteristic grumpiness and shifting lameness should have been a giveaway. During his treatment he got better, then a bit worse, then finally better again. Wish someone had told me about not crushing the tablets! He had a high titer. Thirty days after treatment his titer was much lower. It will always remain "borderline" as are many if not most horses here in the Land O'Lyme. Sometimes in questionable situations a vet will start a horse on doxy to see if it responds - improvement would indicate that it was Lyme or another infection that responds to antibiotics. Balancing that are the concerns about using antibiotics too freely and about side effects. I have known a number of other horses treated for Lyme successfully. Most responded to doxy, tho one needed 60 days. I do know of one that was treated with IV tetracycline but she had a reaction and didnt complete the treatment - was switched to oral meds.
A couple of years later I got Lyme. My doctor started treatment before the blood tests came back due to my symptoms, location and the fact that I knew I had a tick attached probably overnight (yech!) Only my (vaccinated) dog has escaped!

[RiverBendPol]

Kristin-I'm so sorry you're having such a bad time. Yipes, you've really had a bad ride for a while. I hope your luck turns soon!
Here's a 'funny' little tale. 2 TBs, 1 is Mike, whom you all know as my EPSM-er. Really cheerful now, going really well, jumping like a champ, all good. Then there's Scotty. NQR for a while. Some minor shifting lameness, poor appetite, has not lost his winter coat yet, generally ADR. So I have blood pulled on both, to compare to last year's titres, get a Spring baseline, etc. No worries on Mike, plenty on Scott.
Scott's blood comes back FINE. Everything fine, no nothing, titre indicates mild exposure, at the very most. Mike's is at the very-highest-possible-off-the-charts-level.
In chatting with my vet just now, she says there is no way to tell who will respond to IV Oxy-Tet and who will to Doxy. Another of my TBs has been treated 5 or 6 times over the years.This time, he has just NOT responded to Doxy AT ALL but made a complete turn around when the Oxy-Tet started. Vet says there are so many variables, every horse responds differently, it is all basically a crap shoot. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrgh.:no:

[LoriO]

Just a quick update on how Lizzy is doing! We are about halfway through the 30 days and I am definately seeing signs of improvement. She still has a few spots that she is uncomfortable with me touching or grooming but overall she is much better then she has been. fingers crossed that the treatments work and we lick this damn disease!

[Kiwayu]

Vet just left-Kiwayu is a f-ing MESS!!!! Vet pulled blood for Lyme (and EPM, although we don't think it's that-Cornell suggested it), and then did flexions on Kiwayu. EVERY joint in Kiwayu's body failed the flexions so badly that he was non-weight bearing the first few steps then dead lame for a lap around the ring. :eek: :cry: :no:

Our course of action is continue on the doxy, and wait for the results. Then depending on what Cornell says and the test says, we'll decide what to do. :sigh:

[Luie's Person]

O Kiwayu!

We're so sad to read this post!! We'll be saying prayers and sending spiritual carrots....Just keep us up to date! we care!!

[Boston Chicken]

I'm sorry to hear this :( I think the EPM test is very smart at this point - just to rule it out. Keep us posted. Thinking of you :sadsmile:

[LoriO]

Oh Kiwayu, that stinks!! Hang in there. Good idea testing for EPM. Even if it is negative, at least that rules it out as a problem. Hang in there!

[Kiwayu]

Got some of Kiwayu's blood work back today...EPM test came back POSITIVE!!! :eek: Vet claims it's not a definite result and that it really means Kiwayu has been exposed to the disease. But still...If we can't resolve his problems we're going to go down that road. Thank god Kiwayu is NOT neurologic.

Kiwayu's attitude has improved 95%. Although he's still extrememly stiff. :no: We're still waiting for the Lyme test but hopefully that'll come tomorrow. Cornell hasn't responded back to me yet, which has me extremely disappointed. :sigh:

[Boston Chicken]

Oh no! I was afraid of that. A lot of things you said in the beginning made me think (and I think I posted this - that you should have them pull for EPM) that he might have EPM...the stumbling, the falling down. I'll have to go back and re-read. Will you do a spinal to see if he is indeed EPM or just treat? I am really sorry, but at the same time, you may be getting somewhere :yes: All my good thoughts to you and Kiwayu. Really hoping for good news soon.

[Boston Chicken]

I went back and re-read what made me think it wouldn't hurt to pull the blood test just to see if he was exposed. This was the post that made me think it wouldn't be a bad idea.

"Yesterday, on the other hand, something REALLY weird happened....I threw him on the lunge line and walked him for about 5-10 minutes to "warm up". I eventually troted him and he was just his pokey self at the trot. He went about 3 or 4 times around troting and then did this hopping thing behind. After that he just seemed very short in his right hind leg. I stopped him, check his feet for rocks, gave him a look over and then began to walk him again on the lunge line. I wanted to see if he would walked out of it. It was improving. After about another 10 minutes of walking the BO came out to the ring to talk to me. I began to trot him in front of the BO to get a second opinion. BO agreed he was NQR at the trot. Then OUT OF THE BLUE, Kiwayu trips at the trot falls to he knees, and stays there a couple of seconds. Almost like he couldn't use his hind end to get up. After a few seconds he rolls over to his side, lays there a few more seconds and then proceeds to get up."

If you're interested in a great resource to talk to while you wait for further word on what he might have, you can check out the Yahoo EPM Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPM/ They have great insight and should be able to give you lots of good information, even if it isn't EPM - they have a lot of experience with Lyme too. I went there when we thought Faune might have EPM. They were amazingly knowledgeable.

[Kiwayu]

Right now we're putting the EPM test on the back burner. Kiwayu's attitude is basically completely normal, he's NOT neurologic at all, and basically not showing any symptoms of EPM. Cornell had told my vet that Lyme will effect a horse's attitude and can make them fall down, etc. It can look a lot like EPM. We want to see what the Lyme test says, finish the doxy and then go from there. No one, including Cornell thinks he has EPM, even with the blood work being positive. Everyone thinks he's just been exposed to EPM, which is why he came back positive.

[Boston Chicken]

I was just trying to be helpful based on what you said some of his early symptoms were. I realize that many (if not most) horses will come back with exposure to EPM. My horse has not been exposed to EPM for whatever reason, which is why we were able to rule it out years ago. They spent a lot of time with my gelding on the neurological tests and he failed the tail pull (weakness) but he never fell down or even tripped. However, they were cautious with his type of symptoms. Basically, he was weak in the hind end and that sent off all types of alarms coupled with a few other things. Obviously this is different than Kiwayu. But I can only offer my own experiences and a shoulder.

Take care.

[Kiwayu]

Boston- I'm sorry if I came across rude. I didn't mean to and I appreciate any help I can get. I don't know what to do anymore with Kiwayu. I did join the EPM yahoo group. Please keep any suggestions coming.

[Boston Chicken]

I totally understand. I was the same way (likely worse!) when we were trying to figure out what was wrong with Faune. In the end, all was well. As it must be with Kiwayu :) Keep strong. Really, you have so many people pulling for you and your horse. Again, hoping for improvement very, very soon for you.

[Mary in Area 1]

Kiwayu, my husband's horse wasn't right a few years ago, and we thought he had EPM. We treated him with Marquis and rest, and eventually he was better, but never completely perfect. Anyway, he got worse again this fall, and even though he was negative for Lyme, my vet was really convinced it was due to Lyme infection.

So we treated him and he came back better than ever. Recently, he must have been exposed again, and he had another bad spell. Again, the test was negative for Lyme, but we put him back on the doxy last Thursday, and guess what? Tonight he was good as ever.

The moral of the story is that people really don't know enough about these diseases. The doxy may treat several tick-borne diseases that aren't even identified and tested for yet. They may have symptoms which are more EPM-like.

I'm so glad your horse is better. Go with the clinical signs and don't put too much importance on the test results.

[Kiwayu]

Update:

I got Kiwayu's blood work today (Lyme test) and the numbers barely changed. The little that changed, actually went UP!!! :eek: :no: He's been on the doxy for 45 days now, and has only gotten lame-er (is that even a word?). Farrier came this past weekend and his exact words were "this horse is in a lot of pain". :cry: We've come to the conclusion that the doxy is NOT working. Tomorrow my vet is calling a couple of other vets (Lyme specialists) at different big hospitals and is going to ask for their advice. We'll decide what to do once we talk to them. My vet is so wonderful that she is also going to be coming out Thursday to do light therapy on his accupunture points free of charge!!! :yes: :) We're hoping to make him at least feel a little better. Please jingle for Kiwayu in hope that we kick this Lyme in the butt!

[Kiwayu]

Do any of you guys have suggestions as to what to do? We've talked about trying the IV Tetra, but I just don't know.

[Posting Trot]

No suggestions here, but I'll bump it up for others to see.

It sounds as though the oral doxy isn't working and the IV tetra may be the best thing to try. Is it possible that he has some other kind of infection working as well?

Lyme bacteria are the worst. Good luck and pat your poor boy for me.

[JumpingPaints]

Hi Kiwayu,

I have had two horses with Lyme, one is nearing the end of his first six week Doxy and alternative treatment and is completely back to normal (his initial titer was 435). My other horse who had lyme needed two courses of Doxy for 6 weeks (several months apart) and colostrum before his symptoms were eliminated. Often a course of Doxy alone will not get rid of the lyme, because the spirochetes can hide from the antibiotics and the immune system for many months.

I have had two vets tell me not to re-test until at least 3 months after treatment is done, because titers will remain elevated until then due to antibodies still in the bloodstream.

Good luck!

[RiverBendPol]

I would deffff try the IV Tet.......My vet says many horses respond to one but not the other and there is no way to know who will and who won't until you try it. It is ONLY money, after all!:eek:

[Boston Chicken]

My horse didn't respond to IV Tet. He also didn't respond to oral doxy. He did respond to Teramycin (I may be spelling this wrong). It definitely had my vet scratching her head for a while though.

[vxf111]

I feel your pain Kiwayu. I haven't been posting but I too have a NQR horse that has lyme but that doesn't seem to be the be-all-end-all answer to his problems either.

Brief history...

-Came off the track at 4yrs old with a slightly loose stifle. PPE indicated it needed muscling but no big deal
-Horse was great for almost a year, did need fitness for that stifle but was sound and happy
-Moved from GA to PA, everything fell apart. Got on one day for a lesson and horse (who is exceptionally melow) bucked like crazy around the ring-- we're talking every 2 steps. Trainer initially thought he was being a jerk, so had me continue on for a bit before I got off and we called the vet. Horse was NQR and shaky but didn't seem neurological
-Next day-- full on neurological response, vet comes out and tests for EPM and various other things. He tests positive for EMP exposure but vet diagnoses it as West Nile Virus (one of 2 cases in PA that year)
-Aggressive treatment for WNV and he starts looking better right away but remains twitchy/NQR for several months before making what is announced as a full recover
-One day back in work
-Horse comes down with a wicked case of strangles that will NOT burst. Quarantine and treatment for 3 months before the strangles passes
-Horse abscesses foot (2 weeks off)
-Horse abscesses bottom tooth but dentist doesn't want to pull it (2 weeks off)
-Time off and lack of fitness has stifle sticky again. Other than sticky stifle, horse seems 100% sound
-Internally blister stifle, horse is 100% sound
-2-3 weeks later horse starts getting spooky at night, grumpy, and seems sore all over. After checking saddle fit and other issues, lyme test drawn
-Horse comes back with a low positive and is treated with doxy
-1 month later horse seems fine
-Horse becomes increasingly resistent to move forward and seems sore
-Thorough exam with x-rays. Stifles are normal but hocks need to be injected
-Hocks injected
-Horse is super for 2-3 weeks and then starts getting VERY grumpy and nasty and looks incredibly sore all over
-Vet tests for lyme, it comes back VERY high positive
-Horse is treated for lyme IV and with oral doxy
-2 weeks into treatment, horse is ridden. Horse is super for first ride.
-2nd and 3rd ride horse is wholly unable to be ridden, will not trot, and seems very uncomfortable
-Vet says she's exhausted her options, thinks it might be skeletal/muscular or possibly ulcers.

(I left out some brief periods of okay-ness lasting 2-4 weeks each in this timeline)

That's where I am now. Shane is going to New Bolton on Monday for a scoping, bone scan, and a full workup. I know his symptoms are different than yours, but I will report back in on what they find just on the off chance it's somewhat helpful for you.

I haven't been posting because I am so depressed over the whole thing. He really is my dream horse and due to this whole thing I've lost all my confidence in my riding. I feel as though if he's incurable, I'll probably quit riding-- at least for a while. Okay, enough whining about me

I am so sorry you're going through this.

[JumpingPaints]

Kiwayu, Liz and vfx111, I am so sorry your horses are having these problems. It’s great that you are all being so thorough.

I will give you my two cents, for what it's worth, from my experience of going through similar long periods of horses being NQR, testing positive for lyme etc. Living in an area where Lyme is prevalent, much of what I know about Lyme has come from (human) friends who have suffered from it, and published research on human subjects. I know I am extrapolating from human research when I apply that knowledge to horses, but unfortunately, there just isn’t a lot of research on equine lyme out there.

From what I have learned, Lyme affects its hosts differently, depending upon the strength of their immune systems, and on how quickly and effectively treatment is given following initial infection. Lyme can be an extremely difficult disease to treat and is almost impossible to eradicate for good if you (or your horse) were exposed to the disease more than a few weeks before starting antibiotics. To treat severe cases, you need to either: combine antibiotics, use more aggressive ones or go beyond them.

Here is one human case. My friend Karen noticed the bull’s eye rash on her arm and promptly went to her NYC doctor (who was not that familiar with Lyme). She prescribed low dosage of Doxy for 3 weeks. Karen initially developed no symptoms, and then six months later, was slammed with severe joint pain and neurological symptoms. She consulted with the TOP Lyme doc in the country, and was treated with various and increasingly aggressive antibiotics for 14 months, including Flagyl. She spent $15,000 on antibiotics alone. She had good days and bad days, but continued to have symptoms where she was so exhausted, she could not get out of bed. She also had frequent short and medium-term memory loss and said she had the sensation of something behind her forehead eating her brain. She finally stopped the antibiotics and tried an alternative therapy that has kept her symptom free for the last two years. The therapy involves some kind of electrical current machine, and to me seems quite bizarre and difficult to use on horses, so I’m not recommending it, but it did prompt me to do a lot of research on effectively treating lyme.

One of the challenges of using antibiotics on horses is that as part of the lyme spirochete life cycle in the body, they enter cells and become impervious to antibiotics and the immune system. They are only vulnerable when the cell dies, until they enter another host cell. Some cells live up to 8 months – so, if you don’t get them all when they initially enter the body and before they enter cells – most antibiotic treatments (in particular short courses) will not eradicate the lyme. And when it comes back, it is fierce. Here is a comprehensive article that goes through the prevalence of Lyme and the science of it: http://www.autoimmunityresearch.org/lyme-disease/

My horse who is just finishing a 6 week course of Doxy is also on oli-vet paste, colostrum and samento. He is now better than he has been in years (we suspect he has had lyme for at least two years). Here is some info on lyme and samento: http://www.samento.com.ec/nutranews/index.html. I will continue the complimentary therapies for 6 months, and then pull another titer. Good luck to all of you, and I hope some of this info was helpful.

[Kiwayu]

Well, vet came today and performed light therapy on Kiwayu's accupunture points. Kiwayu LOVED it!!! He was falling asleep. We're going to start him on some Chinese herbs for his Lyme and see how he does with that. We're still waiting on the vets to call back from the hospital. I'm going to trot him later to see how sound, or lame, he is now after this light therapy. I have to report to the vet in a couple of days. Vet seems to think he's going to respond to this treatment. Lets keep our fingers crossed. :yes:

[Iride]

What is light therapy?

[Kiwayu]

Light Therapy is light healing technology, such as BioScan, which is a unique diagnostic and therapeutic system proven effective in the treatment of a multitude of equine ailments ans chronic discomforts. BioScan products generate and apply photodynamic light precisely tuned to specific frequencies that studies have indicated stimulate healing enzymes within cellular structures. Benefits may include

-Stimulates cellular reproduction
-Relaxes muscles and stimulates nerve transmission
-Stimulates accupuncture points and immune response
-Provides relief of minor pains and aches
-Helps provide an improved range of motion
-Provides an increase in local blood circulation
-Stimulates tissue granulation and connective tissue projections, which are -part of the healing process of wounds, ulcers or inflammed tissue
-Stimulates fibroblastic activity which aids in the repair process
-Increse RNA and DNA synthesis. This helps damaged cells to be replaced more promptly
-Increase vascularity (circulation) by increasing the formation of new capillaries
-Stimulate the release of adenosine triphosphate (ATP)

Go here for my info: www.bioscanlight.com

[Luie's Person]

Luie benefitted tremendously from laser/light therapy when he had Lymes.....our vet relented & got the laser machine because he became too sensitive to be 'needled'. Vet now uses on self, friends, entire animal nation. Thinking of buying one for myself ( reconditioned units cost MUCH LESS and carry a guarantee) Apart from the 'pain remission points' there's also immune stimualtion, relaxation etc.
SO OK Kiwayu: NOW time to try Ledum Palustre....nine 30c tabs 1x day is standard equine dose. Research! You'll be impressed! Hope it works for you as it did for Luie and my very large rude, rambunctious Lab (6 tab dose)! FWIW, the chinese herb formulations have never worked for us, but maybe I'm 'too western' -- HOWEVER my husband is Chinese, so I had hope!!!
GOOD LUCK!!!!

[Kiwayu]

Luie- Where can I get this Ledum Palustre? I'm so desperate right now I'll try anything!!!! Light Therapy did SQUAT (as of last night)!!! Kiwayu was so lame last night. :cry:

Vent: Why can't vets from from big hospitals call you back?!?!?!? Grrr. :mad:

[Janet]

Luie- Where can I get this Ledum Palustre? I'm so desperate right now I'll try anything!!!! Light Therapy did SQUAT (as of last night)!!! Kiwayu was so lame last night. :cry:

Vent: Why can't vets from from big hospitals call you back?!?!?!? Grrr. :mad: From a homeopath.

[cosmos mom]

www.smallflower.com
www.mothernature.com

We used the Ledum Palustre as well.

[Kiwayu]

Cosmos Mom- Did it work for you?

[Luie's Person]

Kiwayu - you have a PM.

Go to a "whole Foods" or any decent health food store. They will have the ledum palustre. make sure to get the 30c, NOT the 6c.

Personally, if your vet has started Kiwayu on the Chinese herbs, I wouldn't add the ledum unless I discussed it w/ the vet.

My labrador was treated for Lymes the first time w/ doxy only. He came down w/ it again - this time had Luie's vet prescribe for him. The doxy plus the ledum and some pain meds...21 days. He seems perfect now!

[cosmos mom]

Just prior to starting antiboitic and homeopatic treatment, Cosmo had:

overall body soreness
shifting lameness
laminitic-like symptoms
lower limb edema
depression/fatigue
a COMPLETE personatity change (attacking other horses and spooky)

we did 10 days of IV oxytetracycline followed directly by 30 days of liquid oral Doxycycline. At the same time I gave him 1 M of Ledum Palustre 3x's a day and 12 tablets of the Chinese herbal remedy Astralagus 10 3 x's a day, which is supposed to boost the immune system. He finished all meds/ herbs on April 24th and has been back in regular work. He has occasional days of body soreness usually the day after a big workout, but he has made a drastic improvement and is, most days, normal. I don't know his response was due to the combination of homeopatic treatment and antibiotic or if it was related to his age (8 years old) and fitness level (ridden 6 days/ week) but he is close to normal. Hey, the homeopathic stuff sure didn't hurt! I am just praying the the soreness after tough workouts thing goes away with time. We are doing a schooling horse trial this weekend.

[Kiwayu]

Luie- I sent you a PM.

[Kiwayu]

I started Kiwayu on the Chinese herbs yesterday afternoon. I hope they help. My vet spoke to one vet at a big hospital and they are *thinking* Kiwayu might have developed Rheumatory Arthritis from the Lyme. Highly suggested the Chinese herbs, and had success with another herb that my vet is going to order for me. He also suggested trying Legend. I was thinking of trying Legend even before this happened, so Kiwayu will be going on Legend sometime this week. Between myself and my vet, we're both still waiting for calls back from about 3 other hospital vets. Hopefully someone will be able to shed some light. :sigh:

[cosmos mom]

Sorry for all that you have been going through Kiwayu! Hopefull the herbal remedy and Legend will work for you!

[JumpingPaints]

Hi Kiwayu,

Hopefully one of the chinese herbs he is on is Samento (Cat's Claw). There is a lot of recent research on its effectiveness against Lyme. Here is the info:
http://www.samento.com.ec/nutranews/index.html.

Also, not surprising about the rhemetoid arthritis - it is an autoimmune disease, and there is also a lot of new information that suggests that lyme is autoimmune (immunosuppressive) as well, hence the effectiveness of immune-supporting herbs, vitamins and minerals like samento, colostrum, selenium, licorice, Vitamin C, L-arginine etc. Here is an article talking about the lyme autoimmunity connection, with a great summary of effective conventional and complimentary therapies if you scroll down to almost the end : http://www.autoimmunityresearch.org/lyme-disease/

The important thing to remember is that your complimentary treatment will need to continue for months to ensure the lyme is truly eradicated. Good luck!

[veebug22]

I know this is a super old thread, but I'm curious how some of the horses with extreme cases turned out... Kiwayu? Liz? vxf111?

My mare had Lyme years ago when she was in CT (near Lyme ;)), and was treated (never retested, unfortunately). Last fall/winter she suddenly and quickly went downhill and became very grumpy and lame. Not even pasture sound. She was so uncomfortable even walking across her paddock to come in. The lameness showed up like a severe stifle injury. The vet says the Lyme has caused swelling in the joint. We treated with a week of IV oxytet and 4 weeks of doxy. She was almost sound, but looked a little short at the trot sometimes, and 10 mins into a ride would get very grumpy. It got progressively worse and she became very sensitive and grumpy again, and definitely not completely sound at the trot. So I had her tested again. Guess what? The titre dropped from 439 to 430, so, erm, all that money and not really not much effect on her titre (I get so confused when people talk about titre counts, because my vet considered these to be extremely high, the highest he's seen, and NY has its share of Lyme. So all titre counts are from Elisa tests, right?). She's now at the vet clinic on 30 days of IV oxytet, the price of which I will not type because it burns my retinas to think of it coming out of my account :lol: I will edit to add that my vet is very price-conscious, so it was entirely my choice to take the more aggressive and expensive treatment. Cornell advised it if I could do it. I've got her on U-gard and probiotics, and my fingers are crossed it doesn't cause digestion issues. My vet's been working with Cornell, and of course, even they have said there is no guarantee she'll be sound at the end. My vet doesn't think it's probable that her titre will come down below positive levels, and he says there is a possibility we may have to do annual treatment just to keep the symptoms at bay!! :eek: He has another client that has to be treated once a year to stay sound. My gelding had Lyme too, but all it took was 4 weeks of doxy to nip it in the bud. Is nothing easy with this mare???!!! I'm pretty familiar with Lyme disease from living in CT, but I've never seen it quite like this.

So, now that we're a couple years down the road from the last post in this thread, how did your guys fare? Did they ever get sound and comfortable again? Did they return to the same level of work as before? What course of treatment did you use? Did anyone use long-term IV with no effect? Anyone switch to terramycin? If your horse wasn't completely sound afterward, did you end up injecting the joint? Did it make a difference? Did you have to treat again or do you have to treat annually to keep symptoms manageable?

[vxf111]

Shane ended up having 4 bouts of lyme. He recovered and then relapsed the first 3 times. The last time, I did 2 weeks of IV Tet and then 2 months of Doxy. Since then (knock on wood) he has not had another lyme issue.

Alas, my lyme story does not end there?

In October, Stoney started to be grumpy about being ridden/groomed which was really unlike him. I thought it was saddle fit and had the saddle professionally fit, though it didn’t really help. Then in the winter he started looking footsore. I attributed that to the hard, frozen ground and kept him in on really bad days. I clearly just missed the lyme back in the fall/winter. It presented really differently in Stoney than it did in Shane, and I wasn’t the one riding Stoney (he was being ridden by little kids) so although I heard about his grumpiness--- I didn’t see it first hand and though it was from other causes.

In February, he was so grumpy/snappy that he scared several people at the barn who were trying to help blanket him. This is a horse who, under normal circumstances, a 5-6 year old can handle, tack up, and ride. Then Stoney became almost non weight bearing, toe-dragging lame on the right hind and was so sore, he couldn’t even be flexed. He was seen by the vet several times in February. He had a titer (Elisa and Western blot) taken in February and it came back positive. She started him on Doxy, 25 pills 2x/day (he’s slightly under 1000 lbs) and he had a few days of seeming better but then regressed right back.

In March, while still on the Doxy (now up to 40 pills 2x/day), his personality not only changed when dealing with people but even on turnout. He began to do very destructive, out-of-character things. While turned out alone, he gashed his neck open on the fence (trying to itch, maybe?) and then got cast (he is 20 years old and was in a huge pasture, he is wise enough to know not to roll right up against the fence). He jogged off lame from being cast. He saw the vet again several times and had another lyme tests, just as positive. One day he came in from turnout almost non weight bearing on the left front. These injuries seemed to come and go, he’d be off for a few days and by the time the vet came-- he was better or it was gone. The bad attitude remained.

Yesterday I took him to the excellent sports medicine vet. He went to palpitate Stoney’s back and Stoney actually fell to his knees and cried out in pain. The vet and his colleage said in 25+ years of practice they had never seen such a reaction. They hypothesize that Stoney some how fell and injured himself and that’s what has been painful all along. They didn’t really attribute the reaction to lyme. This vet (and New Bolton was well, FYI) are not hugely sold on lyme diagnosises in horses. They tend to believe that lyme doesn’t affect horses quite the same way it does in people and dogs. I think that is true, but I also have a nagging suspicion that Stoney didn’t JUST fall and there’s something systemic and painful that has been lingering for a long time.

So we’re treating the back (Equioxx and Robaxin), resting him, and just to be safe I am going to go ahead and finish the Doxy I’ve got. He’s had 3 weeks on the 21 pills 2/xday and 3 weeks on the 40 pills 2x/day. I think I’ve probably got enough pills left for 2-3 more weeks, I’d have to check and see precisely what I have. The excellent sports medicine vet is pretty much dismissing lyme and I trust him so much, he’s seen so much and he’s so up on what’s cutting edge…. I just want my horse back, sound, and happy.

[vxf111]

As a further update (I had something longer typed but the COTH internet gnomes ate it) Shane continues to be a "glass" horse and if there's something sharp/poisonous/allergic-- he'll find it. But thankfully, lyme has not been an issue for him since I did the IV Tet.

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu ended up having 3 bouts of Lyme. He's sound in turnout, being ridden and even being lunged. If you flex him-he's a disaster! He'll act like he's broken his leg. I have to have him on a day or 2 of Equioxx prior to being shod and getting shod takes about 2 hours. Thank god my farrier is patient because you can only hold Kiwayu's leg flexed for a few minutes and then he needs about 5 minutes to eventually put his leg flat on the ground. He was a sh!t for me and the vet a few weeks ago, escaped and ran around the place bucking. My vet made the comment, "ohh wow. He's actually sound." While she was admiring his soundness, I'm cursing him out for destroying the place and playing hard to catch. ;)

I pull bloodwork 2x a year and watchin him closely. He's never been the same since the Lyme. :(

[veebug22]

Thanks vxf111 and Kiwayu!

Kiwayu -- You mention your guy is sound under saddle, but do you feel like he would hold up under heavy work? This is my other concern with the mare. I'm thinking even if she's sound, the hopes with which I bought her - to do the bigger jumper classes - may not be physically possible anymore. I guess we'll have to see.

vxf111 -- Your post is interesting. I have been thinking of taking my mare to a chiropracter/bodywork guy when she is done to address any lingering issues, and your post just convinced me that I definitely should. It will be interesting to see if it makes any difference. I have to think that being in that much physical discomfort over a long period of time causes them to use their bodies and react to things in ways that can be injuring or throw everything out of wack. She's not back sore, but she was definitely very crooked after being treated the first time, assumedly from keeping all her weight off the right hind.

[veebug22]

As a further update (I had something longer typed but the COTH internet gnomes ate it) Shane continues to be a "glass" horse and if there's something sharp/poisonous/allergic-- he'll find it. But thankfully, lyme has not been an issue for him since I did the IV Tet.

vxf111, would you consider Shane completely sound? Was he able to return to his original level of work?

[Posting Trot]

My mare went through two bouts of lyme disease: the last one was a year ago.

She recovered extremely well from the second bout of lyme (I treated with 45 days of oral doxy). She is doing better now, in terms of her work, than before the second bout of lyme, which makes me think that she may have had a long-simmering problem with lyme that simply erupted into view with symptoms last year.

Lyme disease is so individual; different horses just react to it and respond to treatment very differently.

Good luck.

[Kiwayu]

I think my horse would hold up to heavy work if asked. I'm not going to ask being that he's 23 years old, he raced until he's 7 and I barely have time to ride 1-2x a week now. I bought him 9 years ago as a pleasure horse with the thought that if something were to ever happen where he couldn't work, then I have a big dog. There are times I'll throw him on the lunge line and he'll think he's at the track and go crazy! He'll work so hard he'll be lathered in 5-10 mins. There's no stoping him when he's in a mood like that. He's always sound the next day.

Just don't flex my horse otherwise he's so lame the first few yards he can't even walk... :(

[vxf111]

vxf111, would you consider Shane completely sound? Was he able to return to his original level of work?

Yes, Shane is as sound, or sounder, than he was before the lyme. Once we finally got rid of it with the Tet, he returned to the same level of work as he was doing pre-lyme (actually a much higher level of work).

He continues to have some other issues with his stifle/previous fractured wither and obviously the Tet didn't make those disappear. And he is the most accident prone, likely-to-get-into-trouble horse I have ever met (he could cut himself in a padded room). But I do believe that after the treatment with Tet, there were no remaining issues due to lyme. At least, not yet and it's been well over a year so I am hopeful.

[OffTheHook]

I have a question about the time between the onset of symptoms and the initial infection. How closely associated are these two events? Can a horse go from having a subclinical infection to clinical? Well, I guess that’s what happens with a relapse, but the reason I’m asking is the gelding I purchased a year ago (he had lived in a huge overgrown pasture and it took me days to find/pick off all the ticks) recently started being very unhappy under saddle as in avoids the bit, resists bending, bucks when asked for a canter, etc. Had a vet out, she flexed him and his two front and left hind came up positive and also said his back and hindquarters are sore. Just started him on Adequan, but I’m just confused as to how he became so stiff and sore. He’s just a pleasure horse and we only do light work. And I hate just treating symptoms rather than the cause of the problem especially if his lameness really is a part of something more rather than a result of an injury/strain/whatever. Hate not having an answer but now wondering about lyme, maybe he was subclinical but now the infection’s too much for him?

[Janet]

Yes, it is entirely plausible that it is Lyme.

Furthermore, there is at least anecdotal evidence (maybe statistical as well, I don't know) from the vets I have discussed it with that there is a surge in Lyme becoming "un-dormant" in April (also October).

Worth investigating.

I have a question about the time between the onset of symptoms and the initial infection. How closely associated are these two events? Can a horse go from having a subclinical infection to clinical? Well, I guess that’s what happens with a relapse, but the reason I’m asking is the gelding I purchased a year ago (he had lived in a huge overgrown pasture and it took me days to find/pick off all the ticks) recently started being very unhappy under saddle as in avoids the bit, resists bending, bucks when asked for a canter, etc. Had a vet out, she flexed him and his two front and left hind came up positive and also said his back and hindquarters are sore. Just started him on Adequan, but I’m just confused as to how he became so stiff and sore. He’s just a pleasure horse and we only do light work. And I hate just treating symptoms rather than the cause of the problem especially if his lameness really is a part of something more rather than a result of an injury/strain/whatever. Hate not having an answer but now wondering about lyme, maybe he was subclinical but now the infection’s too much for him?

[Janet]

Both Music and Belle came back to be fully sound.

Music (her last bout was about 8 years ago) is treated prophylactically (sp?) with monthly levamazole (immune stimulant) and is under lights.

Belle (last bout about 3 years ago) isn't getting anything specific to Lyme.

[Iride]

She started him on Doxy, 25 pills 2x/day (he’s slightly under 1000 lbs) and he had a few days of seeming better but then regressed right back.


I haven't read any other replies to you post yet... so sorry about your horse... I just wanted to make a comment about Doxy, even though you may already know this. Doxy has anti-inflammatory properties and can make any horse move better while it's on the drug. For this reason, people often think that because a horse moves more soundly while on Doxy, it means the Doxy has addressed/inhibited the Lyme. Which is often not the case (depends on the particular case - it's just that it's hard to know why the horse is moving better... is it the anti-inflammatory aspect, or has the Doxy worked on the bug? There's often no clear indicator which. If the horse has other issues, those and not Lyme may be the cause of the lameness too, in which case, being on Doxy, the horse will seem better while on it.)

Lyme disease is a crappy thing and so little is still known about it. According to some vets I've spoken with, researchers do not have the amount of funds they need to establish new studies on it. :mad:

[Stacie]

My vet feels that a lot of horses that are treated for Lyme and get better may not have had Lyme at all, but some other bacterial disease, often tick borne as well. So, it can be hard to compare Lyme cases as many may not have *been* lyme. However, if it IS lyme, it can hide in the joints and cause a relapse until the reservoir is treated. That's why going the IV route is often the best course of treatment.
We sent our horse out for a month of IV at the vets and it really wasn't all that more than stall board for the month. We've had no issues with her in the year and half since the treatment.

[sid]

I have a mare that has relapsed 4 times with Lyme. I suspect because she was not treated long enough with Doxy (long time ago before they really understood the length of treatment needed -- 30 days was the standard).

Once she was treated for 90 days with Doxy she relapsed twice -- within 10 days of vaccinations. Granted, that is anecdotal, but I felt it may be connected due to stess on the immune system.

Since then, I put her on Doxy a week before vaccs and keep her on it for 10 days post -- no relapses since then.

BTW, with each relapse her "turnaround" time on the Doxy took longer and longer. First treatment, she responded with in days. Relapse #1 - a week, Relapse #3 - two weeks. Relapse #4 -- 3 weeks.

Nevertheless, with the protocal I use now around vaccination time, she remains sound.

[Iride]

I have a mare that has relapsed 4 times with Lyme. I suspect because she was not treated long enough with Doxy (long time ago before they really understood the length of treatment needed -- 30 days was the standard).

Once she was treated for 90 days with Doxy she relapsed twice -- within 10 days of vaccinations. Granted, that is anecdotal, but I felt it may be connected due to stess on the immune system.

Since then, I put her on Doxy a week before vaccs and keep her on it for 10 days post -- no relapses since then.

BTW, with each relapse her "turnaround" time on the Doxy took longer and longer. First treatment, she responded with in days. Relapse #1 - a week, Relapse #3 - two weeks. Relapse #4 -- 3 weeks.

Nevertheless, with the protocal I use now around vaccination time, she remains sound.

Interesting.

I was wondering, what were her Lyme symptoms? Was she lame on a particular leg or ouchy all over or ?

[sid]

No, she was never overtly lame. But, it was as if her skin was on fire and she hurt all over. Didn't want to be touched/groomed (normally LOVES it), "scrambling" on the lunge line as if she was running away from something, etc. Not wanting to lift her hind legs for the farrier, etc. Generally, ornery and over-sensitive about everything, when in fact she's normally a little worker bee, willing and happy.

S. Doner (formerly "SID")

[Hopeful Hunter]

Many vets recommend no treatment when there are no clinical symptoms, even if they show active titers. The jury is definitely still out on this as far as I can see... I myself am at a loss as to whether or not to treat my 3 year old who tested positive but has no symptoms. Almost all vets said don't treat unless she does have symptoms. That many horses have been infected and will never have any problems. I just wish there were a long-term study to determine whether this is really true or not. More interest and funding in the veterinary research community is SO needed with regard to equine Lyme. :(


FWIW, I think the "Symptoms" can be so diverse, and so subtle, that it's a hard call.

My horse was in the very low positives on ELISA, just enough over "equivocal" to be sure, but not a whole lot. And, except for the breathing, he did not have any symptoms. At least, no symptoms that ANYONE, including me, recognized.

He did 45 days of 100 doxy a day. He got probiotics with that, but supps were cut way down so as not to interfere with antibiotic absorption (I think magnesium was a possible issue, maybe?). BUT he also got another month after finishing his treatment off - I had pulled his shoes and wanted to let his feet grow for the winter.

I think that rest time was very important, actually, because when I did ride him again, I realized the poor animal WAS sore, but it was so subtle it was nothing you'd notice. I only noticed in fact because of the absence of hesitation, and the increased smoothness in bending.

SO...I'd say it can affect them in lots of ways. We're going to test again in mid-May, and if my horse is EVER even a wee bit "different" I'll retest.

Lyme sucks, no doubt. But I also think it may help to try to give their bodies a chance to recover from the treatment before you can really determine how they're doing. JMHO...