What Farriers think of "Barefoot Trimmers"

[Auventera Two]

http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1758&page=1
http://www.horseshoes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2188

Wow, this is an interesting read. :eek:

[JB]

Yeah, well, the fact that my horse is dead freaking lame for 2 weeks after the traditional farrier trims her and leaves her barefoot ought to tell them SOMETHING.

That is a problem with THAT farrier's trim. It's not because it's a farrier trimming a bare foot. It's because THAT farrier doesn't know how to trim a foot properly to begin with, or at least not properly for it to be un-shod. You can almost as easily find a trimmer who can't trim a foot properly. I say "almost" only because farrier outnumber trimmers by a lot, so finding trimmers is harder to start with.

[luvmytbs]

Two Simple

thanks for pointing those two threads out. I have been cracking up over lunch. They are really dispising all of us barefooters, aren't they. :D

Too bad most of them don't want to actually be open minded enough to learn (or at least research) the difference.

I have a former race track farrier coming to watch my barefoot trimmer this weekend when she trims all of the TB's at my barn, as well as some other breeds.
He will tell you straight up, that after doing all those shoes on the track, he has learned one thing: Shoes are causing a lot of harm (and he didn't say it that nicely).

I love this guy: even though he is no longer in the profession, he wants to learn from a professional BF trimmer so he can take care of his big herd at home the balanced way, mustang roll and all.

Oh BTW, he doesn't look like the granola type either. :D

[Capriole]

In the horse world it has become just the "norm" for a horse to be sore for 2 or 3 days after getting a trim, and I just don't think that's the way it should be. I've even had farriers tell me not to ride for a few days because "she'll be sore."
I think this is the sign of a bad farrier. Good "traditional" (I hate that term) farriers would not do this.

And FWIW, many Strasser barefoot trimmers believe that it's normal and fine for a horse to be sore after a trim.

[Lookout]

I think this is the sign of a bad farrier. Good "traditional" (I hate that term) farriers would not do this.

And FWIW, many Strasser barefoot trimmers believe that it's normal and fine for a horse to be sore after a trim.

I don't think anyone thinks it's fine and normal for a horse to be sore for a few days after a trim, either "traditional" farriers, or Strasser trimmers.

TwoSimple, all of your topics have been gone round and round, here and elsewhere. You don't need to bring it up here every time you learn something new about the ongoing controversy, the pricing structures, etc.

Naturally, a group of people that is helping to educate the customer, is not a good thing for the farrier. The curtain has been pulled aside.

[Capriole]

I don't think anyone thinks it's fine and normal for a horse to be sore for a few days after a trim, either "traditional" farriers, or Strasser trimmers.
*Some* do. Some traditional farriers (not all), some Strasser trimmers (not all). Sounds like you and I agree this is not the goal.

[Lookout]

*Some* do. some Strasser trimmers (not all).
No. They don't.

[JB]

No. They don't.

I take it that by this you mean that if a "SHP" says that it's normal and ok to be sore after a trim, then they are not following the true intention of the Strasser method?

I think it all comes down to this - those who cannot trim properly come to expect a horse will be sore for a few days (at least) after a trim and will never do anything to make sure it doesn't keep happening. Those who can trim properly (farrier OR trimmer) will come to expect that it's NOT normal for this to happen, and if it does, will bend over backwards to figure out why and not make that mistake again -- regardless of what method that person follows.

[Capriole]

No. They don't.
Really? One told me this in person, and I was *pretty* sure I had read it several times online. I may of course be wrong. I am not saying it's something that Strasser teaches, but it's something some people who say they follow her model have said.

[doccer]

I asked my farrier about 'natural trimming' last year, and he knowledgeably listed pros and cons of both.... and then stated his opinion. It made sense, and we both think alike.

He respectfully declined to trim my horse that way tho :D

I agree

[hey101]

but what is the difference between a "normal" trim and a "barefoot" trim? My horses are all barefoot for the winter, and yes they were all ouchy the first week to 10 days after I pulled their shoes (this is the first year I've done this, by the way).
I"m so happy with all of them barefoot (waaaaay cheap farrier bills, no stressing over lost shoes, no discernable difference in the way they move or jump, no loss of traction jumping, etc) that I was not going to rush to put all their shoes back on this spring.
My guys all appear to be doing just fine now, and their hooves are tough and hard and I can hack them on varied terrain barefoot and they are fine.

But now I would like to know if this barefoot trim is something I should look into?

[Auventera Two]

but what is the difference between a "normal" trim and a "barefoot" trim? My horses are all barefoot for the winter, and yes they were all ouchy the first week to 10 days after I pulled their shoes (this is the first year I've done this, by the way).
I"m so happy with all of them barefoot (waaaaay cheap farrier bills, no stressing over lost shoes, no discernable difference in the way they move or jump, no loss of traction jumping, etc) that I was not going to rush to put all their shoes back on this spring.
My guys all appear to be doing just fine now, and their hooves are tough and hard and I can hack them on varied terrain barefoot and they are fine.

But now I would like to know if this barefoot trim is something I should look into?

Here are some links that really helped me to sort out everything :)
www.ironfreehoof.com (http://www.ironfreehoof.com/)
www.barefoottrim.com (http://www.barefoottrim.com/)
www.barefoothorse.com (http://www.barefoothorse.com/)
www.tribeequus.com (http://www.tribeequus.com/)
www.equethy.com/barefoot_info.htm (http://www.equethy.com/barefoot_info.htm)

[Lookout]

My gosh, how am I supposed to know what's been discussed over the years on this forum?
You could try checking the date on the thread you posted. And running a couple searches.

[MayS]

That site is run by some really anti-barefoot farriers. In January they actually asked all non-shoeing members not to participate any further in the discussions. Guess they couldn't handle a different point of view. :confused: They sent out a mass-email to all members which basically said this is a shoers board. Too bad because there were some great openminded discussions there. It used to be one of my daily favorites, and now I've deleted it from my Favorites list.

You've got to consider the source. You have some regular members who are probably great shoers but who (1) don't understand the benefits of barefoot (2) don't know how to do a barefoot trim (3) feel threatened by this new idea (4) will lose income because they can no longer charge over $100 a horse. These people were taught the mindset "any horse can do well with shoes".

If you want to look into barefoot trims, pick up the Pete Ramey book. You don't have to agree with everything he says but he raises alot of great points and explains some things the shoe-only farriers could not.

A "regular" trim is probably referring to prepping the foot for a shoe. This is NOT the same as a barefoot trim. A farrier who preps for a shoe may take off more sole, may trim the frog back more, may not roll the edges. It's when the shoeing farriers trim alot of sole off (as if they were prepping for shoes), give the unshod horse back to the owner, and the horse is ouchy for awhile because horse doesnt have that sole layer there to protect his foot... and then the old-school farrier says "see this proves he needs shoes". Duh!

I am admittedly on the side of the barefooters. It hasn't made any of my horses unsound, they're not ouchy on gravel, and my main riding horse is unshod all year and is never lame. Not to mention it's cheaper, faster, and IMHO better for the horse. It may not be right for 100% of horses in 100% of situations, but it's great for many horses out there.

[matryoshka]

Hey TwoSimple,

There has been an ongoing argument between what the farriers who post to horseshoes.com call "barefooters" and farriers. A number of barefoot websites claim that shoes are evil. So, by extension, farriers who apply them must also be evil. The implication is that farriers neither know nor care what a healthy hoof is. So, they are naturally defensive. I would be, too, if I were a shoer. A number of barefoot sites also print photos of bad shoeing jobs and make it seem like all farriers do such low quality work and that the shoes themselves are the problem, not improper trims or improper hoof care by the owner.

A few months ago the farriers on horseshoes.com got tired of all the arguments between the "barefooters (at any cost)" and the farriers, and they told all of us trimmers that we are no longer alowed to post on the farrier's section--we have to post to the owners section or the "barefoot only" forum.

There appears to be a perception among farriers that barefooters are willing to lame a horse in order for it to go barefoot. Many also believe that making the horse as comfortable as possible ASAP is the right thing to do. These farriers are dedicated to the art and science of hoof care, and they have a different philosopy on how to acheive hoof health than a lot of barefoot trimmers.

I also believe that they encounter a lot of barefoot fanatics who question their motives and their work--much like people who are stuck on one training style try to convert everybody to their way of doing things.

I'm not saying they should bash barefooters. It is childish and doesn't make them look too good. I think they are mostly vents. They also want to see research to back up the claims of barefooters, but nobody can seem to agree on what constitutes a "valid" study. You'll also see fights break out between different shoeing philosophy (e.g. natural balance vs. traditional). I don't really get offended by their statements agains barefooters because I'm not a "barefoot at any cost" kind of person. I don't believe in absolutes and try to keep an open mind about what is out there. Now I only read the site when I've got a challenging horse to trim or find a horse that may need shoes and need to know how to advise the owner. So far I've only had to recommend shoes for one horse that is too flat footed to event without shoes. It annoys me when a farrier says that the trim is only 5% of the job. Trimming may take a small percentage of the time, but it is the most important part of the work!

I see a number of the farriers on the site know the difference between a pasture trim vs. a rolled trim. They are more likely to refer to it as beveling the edge rather than giving it a mustang roll. They are a prickly lot over there. I think you've noticed that a lot of barefooters who post to this site are prickly, too. :p

There are a lot of strong personalities on horseshoes.com. If you can stand the arguments, there are a lot of great, technical discussions on the site.

[goodhors]

I guess I would have to agree with the Farriers who made the comments on pricing. I have seen the Trimmers come out and give the spiel, do the "magic trim" whatever the method they espouse and charge the big money for it. Sometimes sound afterwards, sometimes not. The Not is explained as horse needing to get comfortable with having newly "correct" angles and proper trim now. Horse was trimmed completely wrong before the Trimmer saved him!

I see the good Farrier come out to do the same trim without special talk, effects, charge his regular rate, horse goes off sound.

If I take the horses and measure angles, lengths of hoof, check the sole, the trim may be exactly the same. I guess the extra money goes for special effects. Owner BELIEVES now, willing to pay for it. Depending on how the "Special" trim is presented, each one is better than that other one. Owners are willing to believe good advertising, promotions of each type specialist.

I am into that Integral Hoof Mass trim myself. I want my horse having enough hoof left to go ride barefooted immediately after he is trimmed. Enough hoof to fit his body size. I EXPECT my horse to be usable EVERYTIME he is trimmed or shod. I SHOULD be able to ride him as quick as Farrier is done putting the last leg down, and often do. He is sound after pulling shoes, changed to barefooted. This is ALL my horses, not just one special animal with feet of iron.
There should NEVER be any "Getting used to his trim, Sore a few days" garbage when my horses are worked on. It is TOTAL hogwash! You need to change something in the work done, raise your expectations of Farrier or trimmer.

You as an owner should tell Farrier that horse was sore last time, needs to leave more sole or slightly longer hoof wall to protect the coffin bone!! Accepting horse being sore each time is being the poor caretaker!

If you as owners want to pay for a Trimmer, with initials, get the show, that is fine. Just finish educating yourself about hoof care and how to do it well. Naming the trim doesn't make it wonderful. How the trimmer or Farrier applies the knowledge is important.
Know when hoof is trimmed crooked, quit having "CORRECTIVE" leg work done on horses. Accept that some horses can't go barefoot, while other really don't need shoes. This can change if ground they live on changes, or if horse is going to work hard, needs hoof help.

The endless agonizing and carrying on over terminology is what is funny to the foot guys. The the willingness of owner to shell out bucks for a Named trim when owners cry about prices on shoes or less expensive trims is amazing.
Good Farriers make money regardless of what trim is called. Trims are faster, cheaper with no materials to use, more profitable in time and money. Most have more work than they can manage, don't "have to" be putting shoes on everyone. They have checked out the "expert, initialed Trimmers" work on horses. They are willing to believe, just not seeing anything special being done for all they hype. Lots of crappy work, rough edges, unbalanced hoof work. Pairs of feet should match unless one is damaged for a reason. Trimmers don't even do that. Kind of looks like a case of the "Emperor's Wonderful New Clothes". Owners don't want to be left off the bandwagon of Barefoot Greatness.

I have been checking the "New Stuff" out over time, don't see a lot to be that excited about except the pricing. I learned good hoof trimming way back in 4-H, not that hard. We all had barefoot horses, used them hard. Just have to be willing to do it correctly, like any skill, even if trimmer is tired!

[JB]

Paying $85 for a "Special High Performance Barefoot Trim" is no worse than paying $300 for a set of regular keg shoes with a few clips, so it does go both ways ;)

Two Simple - it's like this: In the beginning, you do get upset with all of this. But the more you learn and the more you are sure of what YOU believe in and what YOU know, the more you just have to not get so in a tizzy about it all. I pretty much refuse to read much on horseshoes.com, and really refuse to read a few posters there, as they get my stomach all in a knot and I just want to punch them due to their high and mighty and holier than thou I am great you stink attitudes and what not, so I just don't. As long as there are egos and attitudes, whether it's barefoot vs shod or treeless vs treed or bitted vs bitless or whatever, there will be conflict like this. Read it if you like, hopefully learn something from it, and smile and shake your head :yes::no:

[colleent]

There are Good Farriers and Good Barefoot trimmers. And the good farriers CAN trim a hoof correctly for that horse. And there are bad farriers and there are bad barefoot trimmers. every horse has a different need. some go great barefoot, some do not. i wish everyone would just get over the argument that one is better than the other. you cannot force any one method on every horse. it doesn't work that way. can't we all just agree that we want the best for our individual horse and that we will do what we can to ensure that?

[matryoshka]

Goodhors, I think you hit the nail on the head. :winkgrin: There is a lot of truth in the gripes going both directions. We seem to ingnore bias that we agree with and react to the stuff that we disagree with. Keeping an open mind helps one not to be so reactive.

The only argument I ever got into on horseshoes.com was when one of the main posters beat a poor guy up for disagreeing with him. He sees himself as some kind of verbal superman when he is basically a playground bully. So the argument was about his lack of manners, not trimming or shoeing. Another farrier, who I know for a fact has researched a number of barefoot methods, joined with me in the argument. It would have been fun if it had taken place in a bar over a pitcher of beer. :p

[Lookout]

I take it that by this you mean that if a "SHP" says that it's normal and ok to be sore after a trim, then they are not following the true intention of the Strasser method?

I think it all comes down to this - those who cannot trim properly come to expect a horse will be sore for a few days (at least) after a trim and will never do anything to make sure it doesn't keep happening. Those who can trim properly (farrier OR trimmer) will come to expect that it's NOT normal for this to happen, and if it does, will bend over backwards to figure out why and not make that mistake again -- regardless of what method that person follows.

It means, someone, either the giver or receiver of the information, isn't getting it. I fully agree with your conclusions.

[Appassionato]

There are Good Farriers and Good Barefoot trimmers. And the good farriers CAN trim a hoof correctly for that horse. And there are bad farriers and there are bad barefoot trimmers. every horse has a different need. some go great barefoot, some do not. i wish everyone would just get over the argument that one is better than the other. you cannot force any one method on every horse. it doesn't work that way. can't we all just agree that we want the best for our individual horse and that we will do what we can to ensure that?

Agreed!

And really, this whole thread has turned into a Chevy vs Ford argument. Or really, started as one. My farrier that comes to my farm shoes only one horse, and that's mine with the chronic founder (fronts only). Everyone else is barefoot and just fine. I have never personally met a farrier that screamed all horses need shoes. Furthermore, all the examples of "corrective shoeing" that I've seen on sites damning corrective shoers were horrible examples; no farrier nor vet I know of or have talked to would say, "yeah, that's what I like! Heels at least 6 inches tall!" Insanity. Ok, maybe for certain breed shows such as gaited horses that have the huge pads, but that's a whole 'nother thread that has also been beating a dead horse.

[matryoshka]

Amen! :yes:

[goeslikestink]

um-- well i know my ponies go barefoot and the big ones do in winter but both are my choice to do so--

but i do think they have a point -- as in uk they 5-6yrs training hence my questionas i do not know how long it is in usa

but my farriers that i have had and i have had a few and the only reason i change is for the charges bot becuse of a bad job i have 8 horses and when you pay someone 50.00 thats fine and to add stud holes x 2 in each foot thats 60-- now brefore they was semi retired for 4 of them --i still shoe 4 -- but when the charges go up to 70 -- then 80 for a set x 8 horses thats one months wages gone --

to me i becuase i only use farriers in uk and to my knowledge there isnt any bearfoot trimmers well there might be but i know of none--

my farriers have all made shoes and they have either done hot or cold i prefer hot shoeing-- a good farrier always dresses his horses and always does a finish in uk we have county shows that the farriers have to shoe a horse xan have 4 farriers to one horse in competition no ffot is the same now they are marked by a fellowship of the farriers association and a vet -- for seeing if they have correctly identified the horses problem if he had one-- to correctly fit and make shoe to correct dress th foot and for the correct nails and shoe itself-- and to identified any other underlying problems--theres a lot more to it the things i have said is what i know in these competitions you are allow a free set of shoes but they be put on by different farriers--

i have no problem with a farrier what so ever to trim a horse to the corection of the problem that excise in the foot if it excise or to trim and dress hoof thats normal-- i know quite abit about what our farriers do-- and i must say that barefoot trimming and no offence meant i ouldnt get you to do my horses
they worth to much to me even tho they might be of no use to anyone but myself i speak honest as iam honest

i could trim my horses myself and do what you do easy--but would i be crating a problem for myself me personally wouldnt take that risk -- have owned horse over 40yrs all have been shod and i can honestly say that the horses havent ever been lame due to a bad farrier raspberry has twisted feet on hinds has had that since i got her with corrective shoeing and trimming its gone oillie has pigeon toes -- so he to has corecctive shoeing and soft soles reaaly he cant go bare foot= arran had flat feet soft soles and boxed foot on front-- with out the dedication that my farriers have given me these horses would have been lame if they went barefoot forever --


having 8 cost me dear and i cannot let the all the horses go barefoot only those with good strong feet those that dot catch ever stone or flint or slid when jumping on wet ground from no support-- casue they might twist there fetlock or worse fall over--and then i have huge vets bills on top-- and for what-- becuase i trimed the foot myself and thought i knew waht i was doing iam no vet 00 that takes years to up to 5 in uk -- iam no farrier-- that like i said tkaes years

what iam is an owner and i give my horses the best care my money can buy
and i rescue others that havent had a good start in life -- and it to those good farriers that they to can dress there feet so that they might be comfortable and have a good life to... so me i havent a problem wtih farriers
i ccan see there point of view-- i havent a problem with trimmers - either

but its my choice what i chose to do with my horses-- i prefer farriers becuase if say my horse was lame and i couldnt get a vet and was lame in leg and i didnt know i bet you the farrier would he see legs every day-- for hours on end-- and has the veterinary training to know -- and vets always say if they cant get shoe of sometimes will be there with a farrier and they work hand in hand -- ours do--


so you can flame if you like -- its an honest opnion of what i prefer

[goeslikestink]

teddy was lamintic he was barefoot -- shoes wouldnt have stayed on him on front-- he was under watchful mangement by farrier

[Huntertwo]

My farrier used to trim my pony the exact same way you would before slapping a shoe on. It is NOT the same as a Barefoot trim.

Now, I use a real Barefoot Trimmer and love the work she does.

[Tree]

Thanks for the links but I'll pass. I used to be a member and participate mainly in the Farriers helping Farriers general discussions forum. I really don't miss going there and can only imagine that it would be like picking up a soap opera weeks later...same old story still playing out.

Granted, there are some helpful folks over there but not enough to prevent the green eyed monsters from blowing off at barefoot methods and those who practice them.

If farriers were better at trimming bare hooves, life would be better for horses. Trouble is, there is no real standard that truly suits the horse's physiology being put in practice when these guys and gals are being trained. So, no wonder debates take place...even amongst farriers.

Tree

[Tree]

I was really intrigued to read a couple threads on shoes for the laminitic horse versus going barefoot.

It won't just be the laminitic ones they'd want to shoe but also the full fledged foundered ones too. Double ouch!!

As a barefooter (someone who doesn't shoe horses), I would rather get down to the root cause of laminitis and/or when laminitis moves on into coffin bone rotation (founder). Shoeing these types of horses won't mean the root causes are being addressed or allowed to heal properly. I've heard too many times how some Farriers (and some Vets) will then tell the owner that their horses will ALWAYS have to have shoes from there on or be lame once they are laminitic or have foundered. This would be an example of the root cause falling to the wayside while symptoms are being treated.

Bottom line, much of the stress to laminae is in the form of improper hoof form and imbalances. Now add shoes to improper hoof form and imbalances and you've got a chance that the shoes will be the only things preventing the time bomb from blowing, maybe. I don't like that sort of setup as it's very deceiving to both the horse and owner.

And to be fair, I also don't like barefoot methods which would bring about improper hoof form and imbalances either. Hoof dysfunction exists in both bare and shod hooves.

Tree

[EqTrainer]

Two Simple, for the most part, I am with JB on this one.

What gets me a little wierded out is when someone says if you know how and do apply shoes, that you CANNOT be a good barefoot trimmer - that you cannot do both. I think that is bullshit and find it very offensive. What is in a name? Not much as far as I'm concerned.

[Appassionato]

It's not that shoeing a laminitic/foundered horse or leaving him barefoot is all that the controversy is about. It's what caused the founder (rotation). I've got a founder recovery in shoes (mechanical), I've got a formerly foundered pony doing great barefoot (systemic we believe). It's the cause and the nature of the shoes themselves. I would just bet that we ourselves don't all where the same shoes. Whether it be size, style, make, function, or even barefoot. :D I would just bet we're all different with different needs. Saying one horse needs something because theirs did is as dumb as screaming that someone leaving their horse to pasture (and fat at that) is starving that horse by not giving him grain. One size doesn't fit all.

[Dune]

I know - that's what I'm saying. In the horse world it has become just the "norm" for a horse to be sore for 2 or 3 days after getting a trim, and I just don't think that's the way it should be. I've even had farriers tell me not to ride for a few days because "she'll be sore." The only reason I can think of is that they planed the foot off flat in prep for a shoe, and then don't put the shoes on.

I was talking about the difference in an ordinary farrier trim and legitimate "barefoot" trim. :D

It's not the "norm" in my part of the horse world for ANY horse to be sore after trimming/shoeing. I'll tell you who made my horse DEAD LAME everytime....it was the barefoot trimming gurus! :rolleyes: And even after they did it, they still blamed it on the farrier, for all the trauma he had supposedly caused my horse's feet. Oh brother, was that a load of doo-doo....don't get me started!!!! :mad:

[Appassionato]

You know...Dune brings up a point. When my horse suffered a mech founder, I let the other horses take a back burner. The formerly foundered pony, when he finally did get trimmed (3 months growth), his angles were really off, and after that trim, he WAS sore. But who can I blame but me? The farrier had concerns about the pony's angles, buit also about his comfort. Now I live in a sandy area, almost no rocks. I said to whack away, and after 3 days of turpentine, he was fine. Could some of the soreness people experience be through their lack of knowledge about the feets? I ask only because 10 years ago, I'd have been pissed about this pony being sore. Now I know better. I was warned, and he offered to cut only a little. I didn't want TWO damn founders to deal with, so I said eff it, whack away. Did we hit blood? Hell no, I'm not mean, damn it! :D But then again, "mean" would have been to continue letting that heel grow to where the apex used to be, and elf-shoeing. THAT'S meaner in my opinion.

[Buffyblue]

My farrier is a CJF, and my horse has shoes in front and no shoes behind. She is never sore after a trim and shoeing. My farrier would be horrified if she were, and so would I.

[matryoshka]

Yep, farriers can do excellent trims. The farrier I used (before I took a class to learn to do it myself) is probably the best barefoot trimmer around. She's also one of the best shoers around. Imagine that--all in one person!! She'd warn me if she were going to do anything that might cause soreness, and she'd warn me if she was trying to fix something that would take a few cycles to complete. I trusted her completely and she never steered me wrong.

I'm trying to live up to the example she set for me. I only trim, though. So I understand if a prospective client doesn't want to use me because they may need shoes. It is so important to have a good relationship with the farrier OR trimmer and to feel free to ask questions. I've thought about learning to shoe (learned how in class but haven't done it since), but I keep coming up with excuses not to.

In 30 years of owning horses, I haven't met a farrier who insists on shoes. They always seemed relieved when the horse could go barefoot--they actually make more money and can take on more clients that way.

I have seen farriers nip the toe callus off, though, which may be why some horses are sore after a trim. I couln't believe it when I saw it, because I took a course by an AFA certified farrier, and he emphasized the importance on not taking off the sole callous when leaving a horse barefoot. AND, he showed us how to bevel the hoof. He didn't want us to trim the frog--just remove chunks that could promote the growth of thrush. And we were never, NEVER, to cut into live sole. Good tips for healthy trims whether you apply shoes or not.

[cartera45]

I have been happy with my farrier when my horses were barefoot and when they had shoes. They have never been sore after a trim or after shoeing. The farrier that does pretty much all the other horses at the barn I board at leaves horses sore all the time. The owners seem to think that this is normal. My farrier told me just yesterday that he would love to see all the horses he works on barefoot, but most of the owners don't want to even try. He is successful in getting them to try pulling shoes in the winter. Some of them then leave the shoes off after that. His barefoot trim is different from the trim he does when using shoes. KC LaPierre said in a seminar I attended that a good trim was only 20% of a good hoof - the environment that the horse was in was the other 80%. He spent very little time talking about trimming and most of the time talking about how we can improve the environment for our horses' hooves.

[JB]

...I took a course by an AFA certified farrier, and he emphasized the importance on not taking off the sole callous when leaving a horse barefoot. AND, he showed us how to bevel the hoof. He didn't want us to trim the frog--just remove chunks that could promote the growth of thrush. And we were never, NEVER, to cut into live sole. Good tips for healthy trims whether you apply shoes or not.

Perhaps we can all chip in to send him on a tour of the US to teach some of these so-called "professionals" how to trim a foot ;)

[Tree]

I have seen farriers nip the toe callus off, though, which may be why some horses are sore after a trim. I couln't believe it when I saw it, because I took a course by an AFA certified farrier, and he emphasized the importance on not taking off the sole callous when leaving a horse barefoot. AND, he showed us how to bevel the hoof. He didn't want us to trim the frog--just remove chunks that could promote the growth of thrush. And we were never, NEVER, to cut into live sole. Good tips for healthy trims whether you apply shoes or not.

I find that when some horses lack having enough toe height they tend to form the calloused toe sole. I think it is due to the fact that the toe wall has worn excessively when heels have been allowed to become too high and cause the front to back imbalance...overloading the toe region. So yeah, trimming away the toe callous would be a huge no, no for the horse. It would just further tip the balance towards the toe and reduce the sole thickness between the ground surface and coffin bone tip...ouch!

When it comes to "live sole", it won't always be an accurate guide for folks who would ignore hoof balance too. I'm talking about trim methods that tend to leave horses tipped to their toes thanks to high heels because the trimmers felt they'd invade live sole if they went any further. The amount of sole in the heel/bar triangle will increase in depth while the sole nearer to the frog apex and toe will remain thinner. This would not allow for uniformed sole thickness in the hooves.

When hooves are properly balanced I find that toe wall will begin to take over for the toe sole callous and then the toe callous will no longer be needed. Then the sole callous will blend in with the rest of the sole shape (concavity). The outer wall will form a natural "shoe" being the primary weightbearing surface allowing the sole to be passive. This is just what horse shoes are designed to do.

Tree

[matryoshka]

Yeah, my horses don't really get a toe callus, but more of a shallow ridge around the sole just inside the white line. The flat footed ones still don't get a lot of concavity. They are turned out 24/7. I can't change the fact that we have clay soil, but I did add gravel in areas where they have to travel. If I leave much wall at the front of the toe the underrun feet will again migrate forward. They seem to be programmed for it.

I really haven't seen horses developing a thicker live sole at the heel so that the foot gets tipped up. The closest I come to that is the Freisians I trim. They've got honking strong heels and seem to want to have steeper hoof angles than the other breeds I trim. They've got gorgeous, meaty frogs to go with it. It is a little hard for me to figure out how much heel to take down each time. Plus, their feet are so hard that I have to resharpen my knife after every horse! For these guys, I have to go more by external guides and by the owner telling me how the horses are moving while worked. Has anybody tried to sight a limb with all of that hair? You can't even tell whether the coronet band is even! I love those horses, though, and I'm jealous of how tough their feet are. I wish TBs had accidentally had good hoof quality bred into them along with speed.

I'm using the term "toe callus" loosely, which I know is a no-no on this forum. However, I don't know what else to call the front tip of the sole. The particular horse I saw him do this on has an overly long toe. He trims from the bottom and never rolls the edges. The poor mare really needs to have her breakover back rather than lose sole up there. I trimmed her once and she stopped standing with her front feet pushed out in front. It was a joy to see. But the next trim was by the same guy (he also ignores flares) and she was back to leaning back slightly. What a shame!

I think the live sole is a reasonable guide to know how short to take the walls. However, I do realize it isn't necessarily always the best guide for determining hoof balance. It seems to me, though, that after one has achieved proper balance for the hoof for one or more trim cycles, the sole again becomes a better guide. I'm not talking about pathalogical feet (i.e. from misaligned joints) but rather feet that have been out of balance for a while.

Sorry for the book. It actually takes more time to be brief than to be wordy!

[Sandbarhorse]

I have to jump in with those who say a horse shouldn't be sore from a trim. I'm not talking about sore while getting used to being barefoot, though I've actually not ever had that happen either. Of course, that could be because I've only gone barefoot on the hinds, except for ponies.

Why would anyone accept that? I usually try to give them the day they get re-shod off from work, but it doesn't always work and my farrier has told me that's really not necessary. But, if any one of them was lame after every trim or shoeing, I'd be finding a new farrier/trimmer.

I also know that my farrier has treated laminitis/founder both with shoes and barefoot, depending on the wishes of and the $$ avail. from an individual owner. I get the feeling he'd rather see them in shoes, but that sometimes barefoot can work as well. Once again, an individual choice based on a number of factors related to individual needs.

This thread has actually, for the most part, been one of the more useful barefoot vs. shoes threads I've read on here. Maybe it's an indication that there's an acceptable middle ground for owners, farriers and trimmers? I hope so, because I think, as with most things, extremes are rarely the right answer for every situation.

[cosmos mom]

Cosmo was ouchy for a few weeks, then only ouchy on gravel and uneven pavement for the rest of the year- this was remedied with boots and he is currently sound on all surfaces. He was still very sound and ridable, just ouchy on pavement and gravel. I think it is not unreasonable to think a horse might get a little sore while their foot is going through major changes- cosmo's frog became much wider and rubbery, he developed concavity, his heels were brought down and the flare was taken out of his foot. Of course the foot takes time to adjust. I'm not talking dead lame, I'm talking ouchy- like when you first walk around in barefeet for the summer.

[Sabina]

Length of time to go barefoot to see what happens...I dunno. My definition of a "correct" trim means my horse can carry himself over his home living surface at the walk/trot/canter easily and happily barefoot, without being ridden. Otherwise it's not a "correct" trim for THAT horse.

I would think one or two months would do it, if it were not a really bad situation such as a bad abcess hole growing out? (shudder...) or really bad, bad imbalanced feet.
ASSUMING THE HORSE WAS OTHERWISE HEALTHY!!!

Six months later and the horse is still gimping out in the pasture? Something is muy wrongo.

You notice how almost ALL little baby horses are born with this amazing ability to at least carry themselves around naked barefooted ? Should not this be what the goal is?

The other times and circumstances the horse may need to having riding boots like macs or easy's just for the ride. Because the terrain is harsh, or the ride is long, or the horse's feet are soft from moisture, and most of all, he is carrying a load of the rider and tack. And I don't think that's a bad thing, but a pragmatic thing. I think it's a wise thing to try to keep your horse comfortable. If your horse has huge, hard feet, and can zippity-do- dah across the gravel driveway without a problem, more power to you. If your horse has weeny feet, which is NOT his fault because he didn't pick his parents, you need to tack his feet up just like you tacked up the rest of him.

And then when you are done, you can take the boots off, just like you take your own boots off when you come into the house and sit there at your computer with a cup of tea and he's back out there munching hay, and both of you can be happy.

Anyone who finds the above statements threatening or controversial...that's pitiful.

[cartera45]

My farrier does not trim live sole either and he doesn't really trim the frog either - just a clean up if it is shedding or if it is rough on the edges. When I say my horses have not been sore after a trim, I do not mean that the barefoot ones won't be careful over gravel or rocks. I don't call that being sore - that's being careful. Our pony was barefoot the whole time we had her and she was always careful on the trail about going over sharp rocks. She wasn't sore, she was smart. Our mare likes to avoid gravel and I think it has as much to do with the fact that it rolls around under her feet and feels unsteady as it does that it hurts.

[matryoshka]

How long to stick with a transition to bare foot depends partly on what the owner wants to do with the horse. If you are coming into heavy-duty riding season, it is probably not the best time to try it. It would be kinder to the horse to wait until you've got a couple of months of easy going.

IMHO, a horse should get over being ouchy in a few weeks while his soles harden up. And by this, I mean ouchy in the pasture, not while being ridden. Horses abscess for all sorts of reasons, not just because they are going bare. But abscess after abscess after abscess would be an indication to me that the horse is not tolerating being shoeless.

It takes 6 months to a year to grow an new hoof. If you really want to give it a fair trial, you need to be prepared to wait this long to have a horse that can be ridden sound barefoot on a variety of terrains. (Some horses go totally sound barefoot from the get-go.) This is time for the hoofcapsule to reshape and grow thicker walls. I believe it may take longer for all the internal structures to improve to "gravel crunching" soundness. I don't believe that every horse will get to that point, no matter how much time they are given. Boots are a nice option for those who want their horses barefoot in the pasture but have their feet protected while ridden. That's one compromise.

I don't think TB's have the market on flat feet. I've seen QHs, warmbloods, Freisians, and large drafts with flat feet also. The worst and best feet I have ever trimmed both belong to TB's. Go figure. I think Arabs are known for having excellent quality hooves, but you will run across the odd one or two that don't. Let's not even go into club feet. At a local barn that hires out trail horses, the only ones that can take the terrain and mileage barefoot are Arabs. Tough horses and wonderful trail horses. I miss having one!

(edited multiple times for typos :o )

[JB]

I'm using the term "toe callus" loosely, which I know is a no-no on this forum. However, I don't know what else to call the front tip of the sole.

Moonsickle! :)

[ThirdCharm]

I know - that's what I'm saying. In the horse world it has become just the "norm" for a horse to be sore for 2 or 3 days after getting a trim, and I just don't think that's the way it should be. I've even had farriers tell me not to ride for a few days because "she'll be sore." The only reason I can think of is that they planed the foot off flat in prep for a shoe, and then don't put the shoes on.

I was talking about the difference in an ordinary farrier trim and legitimate "barefoot" trim. :D

Gee, the so-called "legitimate" barefoot trimmers around here tell folks that they can expect their horses to be lame for up to a YEAR. My husband, who is a farrier, trims lots of barefoot horses and I can't recall the last time one has been lame afterwards.

Jennifer

[Dune]

Gee, the so-called "legitimate" barefoot trimmers around here tell folks that they can expect their horses to be lame for up to a YEAR. My husband, who is a farrier, trims lots of barefoot horses and I can't recall the last time one has been lame afterwards.

Jennifer

That has been my experience as well. In fact, there is one in the barn I'm at right now going through this. It's been eight months and they want to give it a year. :rolleyes: Poor thing. I tried to share my experience with the owner, but she wouldn't listen. The "legitimate barefoot trimmers" took my NQR dressage horse and made him DEAD LAME every single time they touched him and said that was due to "prior trauma" caused by the farrier. Stupid me, I gave them enough time to prove (disprove more like! :mad:) their point and then found the right farrier for the job and he was able to keep him sound from the get go! :yes:

[JB]

Are you serious? Is that what its really called, or am I just being too dumb and gullable today? :lol:

LOL! Well, let's see.....errr.....ummmmm.... Ok, no, really that is a valid term for it :)

My guess is that any trimmer who says expect the horse to be lame for a year (or three) and to get worse before he gets better is claiming to follow Strasser. My experience with those claiming to follow Strasser and who do it proudly and let everyone know, are those who just don't get it, and should be banned from ever picking up a knife again.

[Aggie4Bar]

I hesitated to go "barefoot" for a long time because of issues caused by Strasser trimmers. My coach tried it with her elderly gelding, and the trimmer butchered his feet. A close friend of mine tried it with her dressage horse, and the same thing happened. I opted instead for a "four-point trim", but truth be told, I'm not entirely sure what that was supposed to be. A year's worth of that particular trim on my unshod horses yielded mucho white-line separation, lots of chips, some very persistant splits, and a horrifying amount of flare on my filly's fronts. Her icky looking feet (versus the gorgeous feet she'd once had) and the paranoia I have over a dirty knee x-ray prompted me to find my current "barefoot guy" (Ramey follower) and learn to do it myself. So absolutely NO REGRETS with that one. The very first time he trimmed her feet, the difference in her comfort level was obvious. It's almost like she was saying, "Well, it's about time you did it right!!" So the lesson there (for me anyways) was that while there are a multitude of barefoot trims out there, many are just a bunch of crap.

[JB]

while there are a multitude of barefoot trims out there, many are just a bunch of crap.

Be careful, don't assume a method is crap just because those who are professing to follow it are performing it crappily ;) I think most of the methods out there are very good. It's the interpretation of each method that get wonky at times.

[matryoshka]

JB, I can't wait for the responses from those who use the Strasser techiques! Are you trying to start a war?

I follow Ramey's methods to a point. Each trim is based on the individual horse/hoof, and I've learned a lot of different things from researching into different methods. A good farrier or timmer should try to keep in mind how much turnout the horse gets, what terrain he lives on, and his expected level of performance. I've trimmed right before shows lots of time and the horses went into their jumping classes nice and sound. Phew!

Usually the first time I trim a horse he moves off better and more comfortable than before. I rarely have the pleasure of coming behind a really good farrier or trimmer--if the owner is happy with the care, they don't switch trimmers.

Pulling shoes is a bit of a crap shoot. The horse can walk off comfortable and happy, then chip the walls while out playing and get sore. The truth is, if the hoof is balanced, the horse should be comfortable, barring abcesses, soft soles immediately following a stint with shoes, or some other lameness causing injury. If live tissue is invaded it will cause soreness. I try to err on the side of caution. I can always come out in a few days and take off more hoof, but I can't put it back on! If the owner wants an adjustment within the first two weeks, I do it for free. Feet coming out of shoes often need more frequent rolling of the toes to keep them from chipping and breaking out. I try to follow up with clients who have horses transitioning from shoes.

A farrier is a good farrier if he keeps your horse sound and comfortable. Shoes aren't the issue as much as the quality of the work. Bad trims can lame horses, whether or not a shoe is nailed on afterward. More power to those of you who are learning more about hoof care to make sure your horses are receiving good farrier/trimming care!

[JB]

JB, I can't wait for the responses from those who use the Strasser techiques! Are you trying to start a war?


LOL, no way! Merely pointing out my experience ;) I personally have not had that experience with someone claiming to follow Ramey or Jackson or Ovnicek, only Strasser. The difference is perhaps that in *my* experience, the Strasser-wannabes tend to be more vocal about things, which then calls attention to themselves and their work. In *my* experience the Strasser-wannabes tend to have very strong personalities to begin with, and that just follows. My experience my experience my experience! :)

[Aggie4Bar]

Be careful, don't assume a method is crap just because those who are professing to follow it are performing it crappily ;) That is a very good point, but some of them are still a bunch of crap. ;)

I would say that all of the trims "make sense" if you're just reading about them in theory without a basis to think through them as they apply to practice. As an engineer, I view the more extreme ones (i.e. Strasser) as overly invasive and temporarily damaging to the structural integrity of the foot. Perhaps in the long run these trims do prove successful, but the means to the end disturbs me. I have a huge problem with knowingly and purposefully making a horse lame to achieve a final state. There are kinder, less invasive, and most importantly less painful methods.

[Lookout]

How long would you guys wait and allow a horse to be sore/ouchy before determining they cannot go barefoot, and put the shoes back on? Say the horse is getting a correct trim and isn't developing concavity, or remains sore.

Then what makes you think they're getting a "correct" trim? If they were developing concavity, and not sore, then they're getting a correct trim. What's your criteria? The solution is to get someone who knows what they're doing, not put shoes on because the trimmer is incompetent. (Having of course ruled out metabolic/nutritional causes).

[Tree]

Yeah, my horses don't really get a toe callus, but more of a shallow ridge around the sole just inside the white line. The flat footed ones still don't get a lot of concavity. They are turned out 24/7. I can't change the fact that we have clay soil, but I did add gravel in areas where they have to travel. If I leave much wall at the front of the toe the underrun feet will again migrate forward. They seem to be programmed for it.

I'd rather talk about this sort of stuff than get in to it with naysayers anyway.

The horses I'm seeing more of a natural horse shoe with (formed by their walls), are some Lusitano babies under the ages of 2 and some that are almost 4. So these guys aren't too screwed up when it comes to bone adaptations involving their coffin bones. When you said the part about hooves seemingly programed for becoming long toed and underrun, I know what you mean because I have a 28 yo QH who's feet BECAME that way between the age of 4 and 10 thanks for a farrier's idea of lengthening his stride. Now I continue to fight his bone shapes but I'd rather do this than let his breakovers extend out too far so that they cause undo strain to his tendons and ligaments.

I really haven't seen horses developing a thicker live sole at the heel so that the foot gets tipped up.

I'm not sure that you could really tell without doing a dissection or venturing into what you think is "live sole" while trimming.

The closest I come to that is the Freisians I trim. They've got honking strong heels and seem to want to have steeper hoof angles than the other breeds I trim.

I trim some Freisians myself and yes, when I started working on their feet their heels were too high and toes too short from being overloaded. You have to be careful thinking that they 'want' to be that way when it's more likely to be the result of the footing they spend more time on instead. Their coffin bones aren't different unless they've had time to morph so the range for toe angles suits them too.

They've got gorgeous, meaty frogs to go with it. It is a little hard for me to figure out how much heel to take down each time.

Yes, big frogs are what I find too. I use a variety of markers to determine where heel height should be according to their hoof conditions at the time of the trim. It has a lot to do with hoof balance and form to function. Some are only ridden on groomed dressage arena footing which is too soft to provide much wear but if they have to traverse pea gravel or are turned out in pastures with a mix of footing, there'll be some wear occuring.

Plus, their feet are so hard that I have to resharpen my knife after every horse! For these guys, I have to go more by external guides and by the owner telling me how the horses are moving while worked. Has anybody tried to sight a limb with all of that hair? You can't even tell whether the coronet band is even! I love those horses, though, and I'm jealous of how tough their feet are. I wish TBs had accidentally had good hoof quality bred into them along with speed.

I'm lucky that the ones I trim have access to a pasture pond and love to play in it. For the ones that are limited to only pasture and water troughs, the owner reports that these horses will step into their troughs to soak their own hooves! Smart beasties, they are. ;)

I think the live sole is a reasonable guide to know how short to take the walls. However, I do realize it isn't necessarily always the best guide for determining hoof balance. It seems to me, though, that after one has achieved proper balance for the hoof for one or more trim cycles, the sole again becomes a better guide. I'm not talking about pathalogical feet (i.e. from misaligned joints) but rather feet that have been out of balance for a while.

Sorry for the book. It actually takes more time to be brief than to be wordy!

I guess I spend less time using live sole as a guide so it's not something I think of as a "reasonable guide". I've dissected hooves showing that sole thickness in the heel regions can be thicker when heels are high and I see too many examples where people will ignore hoof balance in lew of the live sole plane....or what they THINK is live sole and may not be at all. So if nothing else, this discussion may serve to alert trimmers who tend to use only the live sole as a guide to start considering other aspects of the hoof that can hopefully prevent them from leaving hooves out of balance (front to back). So much the better for the horses who have to wear the hooves. ;)

Tree

[Tree]

How long would you guys wait and allow a horse to be sore/ouchy before determining they cannot go barefoot, and put the shoes back on? Say the horse is getting a correct trim and isn't developing concavity, or remains sore. Would you wait 6 months or a year or more? I'm really curious about this.

I don't use the horse's soreness levels as a determining factor when it comes to letting them remain shoeless or go back to shoes. It's the owner's decision ultimately.

For me, I know horses can go shoeless. If they are sore because their coffin bones morphed and lost their natural vault, these animals can be booted when ridden on terrains that would cause them too much discomfort being bare and when pastured, they are free to pick and choose their way over surfaces which they need to excert more care in traveling across.

If a horse isn't developing concavity, then the reason behind this needs to be identified because it could have much to do with how the trim is working, how the horse is managed and/or what sort of conditions their coffin bones are in.

Lack of concavity doesn't mean a horse would be lame over all surfaces.

Are the horses who don't develop concavity mainly Thoroughbreds?

No. Are all flat footed horses TB's? No again. I find that a great many breeds that started off life on deep footing can develope very flat hooves but they're not limited to Florida bred TB's. I live in Western NC and have visited pastures full of paint broodmares whose feet are, simply put, neglected in the sense that they aren't routinely trimmed. Since they live on valley pasture which is low lying and often flooded during heavy rains, most of them develope platter-like hooves. Their foals will develope the same although not all do. You'd see a variety of conditions including the platters where the entire hoof just flares as the excess amounts increase and others who develope the underrun crushed heels with elongated toes that look more like duck bills.

Can horses with very flat feet ever have "gravel crunching" ability or is that reserved only for horses with strong concavity?

Something about flat hooves is the lack of CLEARANCE between the sole and the ground surface. If the flat footed horses never see proper trimming, they will also have weak laminar attachments which will allow their coffin bones to sit on the soles and effectively cut off blood needed to grow sole. So their soles will be thin and unhealthy. If a flat footed horse has flat coffin bones, no, I would not expect this sort of horse to be a rock cruncher because it would not have enough clearance between it's soles and the rocks. However, it would probably depend on what sorts of rocks you wish to crush, right? Flat smooth rocks would not bother a flat soled horse as much as those lumpy bumpy sharper ones would. Even a tenderfoot like myself would find it easier to navigate smooth rocks vs those sharp ones.

And I'd have to have a picture example to know what you mean by "strong concavity" because I have the feeling you could be referring to some very contracted type hooves vs truly healthier shaped ones.

Tree

[matryoshka]

Do you think farriers would get as upset at us barefoot trimmers if we called ourselves "bare trimmers"? Instead of saying "Has your horse tried barefoot" we could say "Has your horse tried going bare?"

I could advertise myself as a bare trimmer instead of a barefoot trimmer. :lol: Bet I'd increase my business....wait a minute....I'm 41 now....maybe it would decrease my business! :winkgrin:

[Ghazzu]

I know - that's what I'm saying. In the horse world it has become just the "norm" for a horse to be sore for 2 or 3 days after getting a trim, and I just don't think that's the way it should be.

Maybe where *you* live. Certainly not around here.
My farrier is more than happy to leave 4 of the 5 here barefoot, and the 5th only wears fronts.
None are lame after a trim. Not would I keep either a farrier or "trimmer" who thought such was normal.

[Tree]

Do you think farriers would get as upset at us barefoot trimmers if we called ourselves "bare trimmers"? Instead of saying "Has your horse tried barefoot" we could say "Has your horse tried going bare?"

I could advertise myself as a bare trimmer instead of a barefoot trimmer. :lol: Bet I'd increase my business....wait a minute....I'm 41 now....maybe it would decrease my business! :winkgrin:

I know you're joking, of course, but I personally would be surprised more by a farrier who wanted to know anything about barefoot trimmers other than negative info.

Horses were born bare. So are people. Society seems to think it best if 'we' clothe ourselves and our horses. You just can't run around naked unless clothing is optional. Maybe you're on to something then if we put up signs around natural horse keeping places that suggest horse shoes and clothing are optional.

At 44, soon to be 45 in June, I think I'll just stick to wearing clothes while I work. It's difficult enough not to swing and sway in the chest as I'm bent over trimming soles. ;)

Tree

[matryoshka]

Yeah, I have trouble calling myself a "barefoot trimmer" when I wear shoes to trim.

I have actually had a lot of good responses from farriers around here. They respect my choice not to shoe. Usually, though, I am watching them work and not the other way around. A local farrier was kind enough to review some of my work when I first started taking on clients. He had a lot of helpful critiques and showed me some tips that have worked well for me. His trim style (which I don't use) does sometimes leave horses sore. I've gotten a couple of his clients as a result, but he doesn't mind at all. Nice guy.

[JB]

JB, I can't wait for the responses from those who use the Strasser techiques! Are you trying to start a war?


Just to clarify - the folks I am talking about when I stated what I stated are folks I have PERSONALLY met and/or seen their work. I am not talking about anyone in particular on this board - I haven't seen their work and haven't met them. And those on this board do seem to actually care about the horse, whereas the ones I am talking about seem to put the horse secondary to following the Almighty Letter of the "law".

[Tree]

Yeah, I have trouble calling myself a "barefoot trimmer" when I wear shoes to trim.

Symantics I think. It's like taking the term, "natural" and putting a twist to it. I trim barefoot horses. Most Farriers do too when they have to pull the shoes before they can trim the hooves. ;) :D But the Webster's definition of FARRIER is, someone who shoes horses. So I've been using "barefoot trimmer" as a way to distinguish the fact that I don't shoe but TRIM only. I would not feel safe if I didn't wear protective clothing, including shoes, while working around equines. So that sort of joke doesn't produce a hint of a giggle from me when I imagine breaking a basic horse safety rule. ;)

I have actually had a lot of good responses from farriers around here. They respect my choice not to shoe. Usually, though, I am watching them work and not the other way around. A local farrier was kind enough to review some of my work when I first started taking on clients. He had a lot of helpful critiques and showed me some tips that have worked well for me. His trim style (which I don't use) does sometimes leave horses sore. I've gotten a couple of his clients as a result, but he doesn't mind at all. Nice guy.

I'm sure it's nice to have you watching them. It's too bad they don't do the same for you though. During the few times I've had farriers in the audience it has been at hoof trimming workshops and I've done the same by attending Farrier geared workshops. I don't do that much now only because I'm kept busy with my work and free time is spent doing things that interest me more. When I was attending Farrier workshops I was also providing good footed horses for them to show off their shoeing skills with. One horse could have 4 different types of shoes (one for each foot) and then I'd have them removed when they were finished. Oh boy, to see the look on their faces when I requested this of them! LOL! It was as if they thought I didn't think their handiwork was of any use. Well to be honest, it truly wasn't. Just how balanced could my horse be with 4 different shoes? Geez!!!! They figured I'd take advantage of a free shoeing and probably a value of over $200 at that! No thanks. I was just providing the live model with healthy horn for them to nail in to. Some did complain that there wasn't as much hoof as they were used to dealing with....in other words, shorter than they preferred.


But as a horse owner looking over the shoulders of all the farriers my horses had had during those years, I'd seen plenty, thank you. There was a wide variety of shoeing styles amongst them too. I can see more examples just browsing pix posted on the net or by visiting local barns too. I find I learn more about what NOT to do vs what TO do during these times.

As far as I'm concerned, professional hoofcare people are all doing what they think is best. Live and let live.

Tree

[Lookout]

Say a horse has been trimmed by a idgit for a long time and the feet have issues. Lets say thin weak soles, weak walls, long underrun heels, too much foot out in front of the horse, etc.

New trimmer or farrier enters the picture. You know that all these issues are not going to be fixed on the first go-round. It will take time. So during this process, say 3 or 6 months pass and the horse is not growing a thicker sole and not developing concavity. At which point would you give up and go to shoes?
Maybe you have just replaced one idjit with another.

I ask you again - HOW do you know the trimmer is doing the best job possible? I go by what the horse says.

Would it be smart to have x-rays to get a better picture of the coffin bones, how healthy they are, the shape and location, etc.?
Yes it certainly would be advisable to rule out any skeletal issues such as they may be. The only thing I would usually find useful is to see if there is a negative plane coffin bone. Or possibly extent of coffin bone demineralization.

Assume that you KNOW the trimmer or farrier is doing the best job possible and the horse just isn't developing a proper hoof, and that could be for any numer of reasons. Say it *is* metabolic in nature. Maybe it will take a year to get the metabolic problems fixed. During that time would you put on shoes, or continue letting the horse ouch around?
This is the problem in your logic. You can't possibly make this assumption. I ask you again - what is your criteria for the trimmer doing the "best job possible"? The proof is in the pudding - if the horse is right, the trimmer is right. If the horse is wrong, the trimmer is NOT doing the best job possible. It rarely takes that long to deal with a metabolic problem but this is a very hypothetical situation and not really worth discussing unless it's a real situation with all the details that you could make this decision on.

Too many mediocre or downright bad trims by people with VERY LITTLE TRAINING get blamed on the horse just "needing shoes" and their "bad" feet, and their metabolic "problems'.

[JB]

TS, I think the short answer to your questions are - it depends. It depends on the current horse, how bad or good his feet were before and for how long, what his current environment is, whether you accurately detect and fix all issues related to hoof health, whether you provide the environment for his feet to gain all the health the possibly can, etc. Some horses have shoes pulled and are sound from day 1, but they likely had good trims for the years prior. Some horses take a relatively long time to "heal", but they likely had severe hoof pathology that simply takes time to grow out.

So it's not fair to either horse or human to say that within 3 months every horse going barefoot will be sound on all surfaces.

[Sandbarhorse]

Two Simple - I'm sure I'll get blasted for this, but I'd say, if you feel that your horse is getting a good trim (again, if the hrose is sore right after the trim, it's NOT a good trim, IMHO), from either a farrier or a trimmer, and the horse is still ouchy, then it's personal choice of how long you want to see a sore horse. I like what some have said about ouchy in the pasture vs. ouchy under saddle, it makes sense and I'd likely give it more time if the horse was only sore under saddle. The bottom line though is how long do you personally want to wait to have both a rideable horse and a comfortable horse.

For me personally, I'd admittedly be one of the first to put shoes back on, especially if the horse was sore at pasture. It's personal opinion 100%, but I just don't see the benefits of BF being worth having a sore horse. Sore feet are putting stress on my horse and I wouldn't be willing to let that continue very long. Of course that's based on my belief that BF is great, but shoes are not harmful.

[Lookout]

Lookout - assume that I am YOUR client. How long would you allow my horse to be limping on gravel and hard surfaces before you decided he just wasn't going to adopt to riding barefoot and suggest that I put shoes on? At what point in the process would you tell me that the horse needs shoes to be ridden regularly on all surfaces? Would you allow the horse to go 2 months, 6 months, a year? Or would you leave that totally up to the owner to decide?

I'm not saying the horse is lame - just that he is ouchy on all hard surfaces when ridden, which could be 3 or 4 times a week.

Two Simple I don't know how many different ways Ii can say the same thing to you. You have this scenario in your head that you can't seem to get past. This is not how things work in my practice. If the horse is lame after months and months of trimming there is a REASON for it. I would look for and find the reason. I realize that many other trimmers - whom you are describing as doing the best job possible - don't have the training and education about the anatomy of the horse's foot in order to be able to postulate reasons for lameness and come up with solutions, and have to come up with guesses like "maybe the digital cushion isn't robust enough", or blame the horse's metabolism (which coincidentally is a product of trimming). If the horse is still lame after ruling out any dietary reasons, then I would consult a trimmer with more experience than me, and my teachers (this is the benefit of attending trimming "school" BTW, mentors to help you out when you have problems). I'm sorry this doesn't address your need for an exact timeframe but you are asking the question in the wrong way.

Do you have such a horse BTW or is this purely hypothetical?

[goodhors]

I'm not saying the horse is lame - just that he is ouchy on all hard surfaces when ridden, which could be 3 or 4 times a week.

If horse has been bare for a while, couple months, I would have pictures taken of his feet. You have allowed enough time for sole growth if he is going to do it, not being trimmed away between farrier visits. I want to KNOW what is in that hoof, how thick is his sole. Pictures will show you the truth, you can measure the sole depth in the view. X-rays need to be clear views, not blurry, have a metal object in the picture for comparison. He might be one of the thin-sole horses, who just have a difficult time with hard surfaces. He may not be able to develop the thicker sole needed to deal with surfaces he is ridden over during those 3-4 rides a week.

If he is indeed thin soled, give him the help and protection he needs, put shoes on. Could be his breeding, just has thin feet. Not anything that was DONE to him previously. We saw thin sole, thin walls on a lot of Three Bars QH horses, years ago. They were noted in our area, as animals who NEEDED shoes, you knew it going in to buy them.
We had other QH families, less well know nationally, who had TOUGH feet. We ran them regularly down the gravel roads, doing match races, never had sore or lame horses. We matched horses, husband's car at 45mph! We often ran horses daily, goofing off, gettting conditioned, lots of gravel milage. Not lame or sore ever.

Genetics was the deal with this. Same local farrier did a lot of both families of the horses, so the trimming or hoof preparation was not the deciding factor. Can't change what a horse has in his genetics. Make him have a thicker sole if he doesn't.
Your educated Farrier has a lot of options that would be available to help the horse. Every horse can't go barefoot, he is not comfortable. Limping, bobbing his head every step TELLS you he hurts. I don't like seeing limpy horses, would be shoeing if I wanted to keep using this animal regularly.

Horse carriage of self, can be a factor in hoof shape, wear. Loose horse, bred mare heavy-in-foal, don't move collected, gathered up. They mostly slop along, whatever, just moving around from water to pasture. THEY don't care what it does to feet. Ridden horses usually move much differently because of balance changes with rider height, rider demands with legs and reins.
Back to breeding animals, horse style, those herd of valley horses probably were closely alike in breeding, body style, to make similar babies. I would not be surprised that they all had platter feet, running around with little hoof attention over the year. They are ALIKE kinds of horses, all in the same situation, get the same trim when hoof is cut, would still be similar when hoof grows out again.

[Lookout]

No, I do not have such a horse. I was TRYING to drag out of you approximately how long a horse can be expected to be tender after transitioning to barefoot before you would decide the horse CANNOT go barefoot.

Basically you are saying that there is NEVER a reason for a horse to EVER be put into shoes. If he is still sore after XXX period of time, then get a new trimmer, etc.

Anyway, just forget it. You aren't understanding the question at all.

Your question is based on false assumptions which is why there's no answer to it. There's no reason for a horse to be "tender" after transitioning to barefoot. FYI, there are no nerve endings on the outside of the foot. Lots of trimmers leave too much hard horn though, which can cause pain when it presses up into the hoof capsule.
The point is, it's a false scenario. He WON"T be sore after XXX period of time if the person working on him knows what they're doing. I'm sorry you can't understand this. I'd still like to know what you think makes the trim the best possible trim if the horse is still lame and how you know that particular trim is better than the previous "idjit".

[Tree]

No, I do not have such a horse. I was TRYING to drag out of you approximately how long a horse can be expected to be tender after transitioning to barefoot before you would decide the horse CANNOT go barefoot.

Basically you are saying that there is NEVER a reason for a horse to EVER be put into shoes. If he is still sore after XXX period of time, then get a new trimmer, etc.

Anyway, just forget it. You aren't understanding the question at all.

Unless you have specifics, you're just asking someone to shoot in the dark. That's not exactly being fair when hoof trimming requires much more than a one-size-fits-all approach. It depends on the horse and whatever comes with it.

I agree that there's never a reason for a horse to have to have shoes which is the same thing as saying all horses can go barefoot. The deciding factor really boils down to THE HORSE OWNER and THEIR IDEAS or CHOICES.

Soreness happens for a reason. That can't be said too many times. Shoes will not correct what makes a horse sore if EVERYTIME the horse loses its shoe it is still lame. It only APPEARS sound while shod. What is truly going on in that sort of situation? If the shoes were truly helping that horse, shouldn't the feet improve so that it could be sound without them too? What are the shoes HIDING if it's always lame without them?

If a horse continues to be sore, is it just the trimmer's fault? I'd say that there's more to it than that. The trim may only be a part of it or have nothing to do at all with the horse being sore. Let's take a look at everything that could affect the horse...management, use, expectations of the owner and is the horse being expected to perform on footing it couldn't do according to its issues?

Tree

[Tree]

Lookout - assume that I am YOUR client. How long would you allow my horse to be limping on gravel and hard surfaces before you decided he just wasn't going to adopt to riding barefoot and suggest that I put shoes on?

You want some answers. Ok, here is what I'd say if you were MY client. I'd want to know if you expect your horse to be sound on rocks it feels beneath its feet. I'd begin to wonder if your idea of soundness meant the horse shouldn't feel anything at all. He may be sound on other surfaces and spend more time of footing of the same and less time on rockier surfaces. It's hardly fair to expect your horse's hooves to become rock crunchers if he doesn't LIVE on them like wild horses on abrasive footing do. So it's not a matter of whether or not your horse can adapt to barefooting but what you're willing to do to help him be able TO do it too. If you're unwilling to do what it takes then I'd drop you as a client and you'd be free to persue whatever route you wished to take. If you decided to go back to shoes, more power to you. ;)

At what point in the process would you tell me that the horse needs shoes to be ridden regularly on all surfaces? Would you allow the horse to go 2 months, 6 months, a year? Or would you leave that totally up to the owner to decide?

I would not say your horse needs shoes. I'd suggest you boot him on surfaces he can't go comfortably over if you're not going to provide varied footing for him or expose him enough to all surfaces. It may not even be realistic of you to think he should be okay on ALL surfaces. Functional hooves FEEL what's beneath them and this goes towards allowing horses to be surefooted. Surefooted animals are CAREFUL when the going gets difficult for them.

If you're committed to having a barefoot horse, then shoes don't enter your mind. If it's not working out as you had in mind, then you probably wouldn't be committed to barefooted horses and would go back to what would best suit you. That IS up to you. You HIRE trimmers just as you hire Farriers. If you're happy, you keep them. If you're not, you drop them and find another. Sometimes hoofcare people stop being available and drop clients in this manner. Some clients stop calling their hoofcare person and drop them in that manner. Either way, the owner is the boss and pays the employee (the hoofcare person). If the hoofcare person can do all you ask, you'll likely keep them. If they're not doing all that you ask, you find one who can.

I'm not saying the horse is lame - just that he is ouchy on all hard surfaces when ridden, which could be 3 or 4 times a week.

There would be a reason for this and I'd be looking for it. I might have to ask you to have xrays done in order to confirm what I think I'm seeing in the hooves themselves. You may discover that your horse hasn't got the amount of hoof to negotiate all surfaces in the same way. His ouchiness could be warranted given the sorts of footing he reacts to.

Tree

[fergie]

So what is "sound" anyway? Sound is a relative concept. It lies in the judgement of the eye of the beholder. There are also degrees of "sound". If my horse appears to move comfortably, with or without shoes, then I say he is "sound". I'm not going to worry until he doesn't move comfortably. The horse will always tell you as long as you know how to "listen".
Personally, I find many horses who have their shoes pulled and go barefoot are sore (not moving comfortably) for about one shoeing cycle. Then they should be tough enought to go barefoot. If they're still sore it's time to reevaluate things....

[excowgirlie]

As I stated in a recent/similiar thread, my horse started acting first differently(no energy) when his racing plates were pulled three weeks ago,then stubbornly, and now can barely move when I take him out of his stall..every millimeter of his hoof hurts, and damn if I am going to watch him suffer...but what sucks now is he cant even be shod again until he toughens up..its a vicious cycle, because by the time he toughens, it will appear like he will be able to handle barefoot...now I dont know if I should leave him in his stall, turn him out, walk him, work him, or shoot him..(J>K) I am here to say I TOTALLY regret my decision to go barefoot and wish I had researched it more before jumping in *pardon the pun* FEET (hooves) FIRST

[fergie]

Well if you want to know more, and need logical thinking, don't expect that from Lookout. There are always exceptions to every rule. Try Maryoshka, she's sensible.

[luvmytbs]

So then what you are saying is that ALL horses ALL of the time WILL develop enough concavity and sole thickness, regardless of breed, genetics, or environment and will NEVER EVER need to be put into shoes if they have the right trimmer. Correct?

No.

In addition to the right trimmer you also have to manage the horse in such a fashion that it CAN transition. The right trimmer will do you no good, if you keep the horse on soft pasture and then expect it to go on a rough terrain trailride. You have to condition that horse for that rough terrain.
A good example would be you going barefoot yourself. If you always go barefoot on your carpet, that doesn't allow you to be able to walk on a gravel road barefoot. If you walk barefoot on gravel (slowly conditioning) your feet will develop calluses so eventually you won't have a problem on that gravel. Picture those guys in India who either walk barefoot through hot coals or on top of a bed of nails, they had to condition their feet to it.

In a horse, the conditioning will bring about thicker soles and concavity.

It is time consuming, and I think that is why a lot of people give up and just proclaim their horse needs shoes. You have to be commited to do your part as an owner.

[excowgirlie]

TB, but what about when your horse is in total pain? I have been using his boots, turning him out, walking him on harder surfaces..he is miserable...

[luvmytbs]

But what about people who board?

A friend of mine boards her barefoot horse. She goes on a lot of rides herself and when she doesn't have the time, she has a teenage girl riding her horse several times a week.
She did purchase boots just in case he needed them on the weekend trailrides she trailers to, but hasn't used them yet.
There are several other barefooters at that same barn now, and because they board, they have time to ride a lot, unlike us, who seem to spend more time doing horsey chores then having our behinds in the saddle.:winkgrin:

[Auventera Two]

LOL, you got that right! :lol: I manage to ride at least twice a week, most times 3 but when it comes down to fixing fences or riding, the saddle doesn't leave the tack room.

[luvmytbs]

And here is a really cool idea my trimmer is currently working on for her 15 barefoot horses:

Around her big pasture, she is installing a "track". It will be wide enough for a horse to run along in. She plans on putting gravel down on that track and then "driving" some horse through there by riding on one in back of all the others, so they have to move forward.

I have done something similiar with my guys before, but just in a big pasture. Get on one with a lunge whip and drove the others around through the different gates that connect the pastures. My "driving" horse got a kick out of it, he would go after any of the horses who would slow down. The others also enjoyed this "tag" game.
You have to have some pretty level headed, safe horses to do this with though, LOL.
And yes, they are OTTBs (just had to clear that up; they can be level headed.:yes: )

[Lookout]

Thanks fergie for your "one shoeing cycle" answer fergie. That's what I was looking for - opinions on how long you think it would take.

How long is a shoeing cycle on a barefoot horse?

Fergie may actually be right about something - there are always exceptions to everything. So there is no one answer to "how long will it take". It depends on that horse. If you want specific answers provide some specific details. It's easy for someone who doesn't work with horses' feet and isn't accountable to someone about what they say, to make sweeping generalizations about how long things should or shouldn't take.

[Lookout]

TB, but what about when your horse is in total pain? I have been using his boots, turning him out, walking him on harder surfaces..he is miserable...

You have said your trimmer is the best. What does he say? Perhaps you could post some pictures and get input on what may be going wrong.

[excowgirlie]

I am feeling fickle about him..he is the best, but I guess that doesnt always mean he is right..he said keep him turned out, no alfalfa, boots with the pads for riding..BUT he hasnt been out to see him, and when the farrier came out today, he was appalled at how much pain his feet were causing him..I guess that is why I am following these posts closely(but feel a bit caught between the heated debate going on in here..) I just have never experienced anything like this IE The problem(my horse being in pain) is a direct result of my decision to try barefoot... and I still havent really gotten answers from anyone about them having the same issues with THEIR barefoot transitions...HOW many weeks of pain..WHen do you realize it isnt going to work, WHAT do you do when he is too lame to walk and too sore for shoes..haven seen or heard it yet....

[JB]

But surely you realize that many people simply CAN'T provide a wild horse environment for their animals. If they board they can't very well go hauling in dump trucks of rocks to dump in the pasture, can they? ;) So what would you do if your client wanted to go barefoot but the pastures and paddocks were cushy soft but yet the person wanted to ride on trails which had rocks and made the horse sore.

Those are the situations where you, the owner, have to decide if the horse gets shoes that stay on all the time, or if you purchase boots so that you can ride on surfaces where the horse isn't comfortable barefoot, yet still allow the horse to be barefoot on surfaces where he is comfortable. Very often this is where "barefoot is for every horse but not every owner" comes into play.

TS, the point is - it's a horse - there IS no simple answer. There IS no "it takes 3 days or 3 months or 3 years." What might be 3 days for one horse might be 3 months for another horse in the exact same situation. You the owner have to be smart enough to do your research, talk to your farrier/trimmer, talk to friends, read articles and forums on the 'net, and try to figure out what is failing in making the horse comfortable. If it is something you have no control over (ie boarding situation), then you have a choice. If it's something you have control over, but are financially unable (ie making gravel pits for your horse to walk through daily), then you have a choice. If it's something you have control over, but are unwilling to do so (ie gradually conditioning your horse to gravel roads and asphalt roads) then you have a choice. The choice is shoes or boots. The time frame is up to you.

[fergie]

Obviously, barefoot horses don't have shoeing cycles, do they????? A good shoeing cycle for a competition horse is 4-6 weeks, duh!!!

[fergie]

Two Simple,
When I worked for an Olympic eventer and we pulled the shoes for the winter we just pulled the shoes - no trimming at that time. Maybe we rasped the sides a little if they were all torn up, but that's it. I think that helps in the transisition from shoes to barefoot. And, it noticed that MOST horses were sore for a month or so, some longer, some shorter. Of course, use your own brain too....! Sometimes they'd need a little Bute....

[Tree]

But surely you realize that many people simply CAN'T provide a wild horse environment for their animals. If they board they can't very well go hauling in dump trucks of rocks to dump in the pasture, can they? ;) So what would you do if your client wanted to go barefoot but the pastures and paddocks were cushy soft but yet the person wanted to ride on trails which had rocks and made the horse sore. Would you suggest they just ride in boots, or would you drop them because they are "unwilling" to do what it takes?

Yes, I do realize this and I don't trim for everyone who wants to go barefoot in my area not only because of this but also because not everyone wants the sort of trim methods I practice. There happens to be boarding facilities that do offer more natural horse keeping practices in my area like 24/7 pasture board at the max and then a paddock with shelter at the least. The pastures around here do have their own natural rock, packed dirt, washed out eroded areas and sod and maybe even streams or ponds to drink from offering the horse something to expose their feet to water. The paddocks are usually all dirt with very little grass and the owner rides the horse on trails with a variety of footing. If a client can't provide for their horse's needs, it's very difficult to keep them as a client because the trim is only part of the whole picture. I can drop a client if things aren't working out just as a client can drop me. The reasons could include they're inability to provide their part of the whole barefooting picture. Unless they're satisfied to always ride a booted horse, some would argue if they're really a barefooter. Farrier's like to pose that question a lot! They'll ask what's so 'natural' about boots on horse's hooves. ;)

I wish I could apologize for the hard questions, but I'm asking them so I can better understand the methodology behind the barefoot way. And yes, I think its a good one, and yes, that's why I'm pursuing it. But I need to know more.

Don't apologize but do have some consideration when we're all just going by the written word here. Answers tend to be based on REAL situations vs hypothetical ones. I do appreciate your effort to learn about barefooting but what actually happens will depend on your circumstances from the start. If you're going to find a Strasser SHP to trim your horse's hooves, you will have to do your part as well as it won't simply be a trim-only deal. If you will read Strasser's "Lifetime of Soundness" and "Shoeing: A Necessary Evil?", you may find more of the answers you seek. That's just ONE of MANY barefoot methods available though. A Strasser SHP is someone who is CERTIFIED by Strasser to do her methods. They have completed and passed the year long course and earned their certification.

Tree

[Tree]

I believe there are some horses somewhere that due to genetics or environment CAN'T go barefoot. Life has no absolutes, and certainly not in the horse world either.

TS,

Genetics provides horses with coffin bones that when pulled from their hoof capsules, will be the same shapes at birth as other breeds coffin bones. However, environment will then begin to affect the newborn's hooves (and body) from there on out. There are studies showing the differences between foals, of the same breed, and their developement under differing living conditions. Standardbreds, for example, were found under developed if they were born during bad weather seasons and kept inside more than the foals born during ideal weather conditions who were kept outside.

I have a client who raises foals of various breeds in two different settings. Some are born on a mountain pasture and the others are born in a valley pasture. The grazing on the mountain is sparse and the horses have to travel more to find enough to eat. The valley is lush with loads to graze without having to search for it. The mountain foals end up with correctly shaped hooves while the valley foals tend to get out of balance quickly and it is linked to lack of wear. The mountain foals self-trim their feet simply by moving over the varied terrain while the valley foals don't have to move as much and the footing is quite soft (sod) with some areas of more abrasive footing which they don't tend to travel on enough to trim their feet. And it's interesting to note that when the mtn foals are moved down into the valley pasture their hooves soon become excessive and out of balance because the footing doesn't provide enough wear and they don't have to travel as far to find something to eat.

When it comes to breeds and their hoof forms, yes, genetics will dictate, to a degree, hoof forms which would be NATURAL to that breed but if you were to line up horses of the same breeds (like in a show ring), and examine their hooves, would they all be the same shape? I'd say no. Would they all be of the correct shape for function? Again, I'd have to say no. It would be the rare horse that would have breed proper hooves AND maintained for optimal function too. Show horses tend to be shod before they mature so their hooves are not allowed to fully develope. This isn't true of all but most. QH's are said to have had their feet bred right out of them (tea cups), but then you will find QH's that were not stall raised or shod before 2 with some very impressive (no pun intended) feet. How could that be if genetics only allowed them tea cups for hooves? How'd they get the larger hooves? Environment.

Tree

[Tree]

So what is "sound" anyway? Sound is a relative concept. It lies in the judgement of the eye of the beholder.

Not everyone recognizes natural movement in their own horses. Not everyone recognizes natural conformation in their own horses either. Not everyone recognizes that laziness isn't natural to horses nor does stumbling mean a horse isn't paying attention.

Personally, I find many horses who have their shoes pulled and go barefoot are sore (not moving comfortably) for about one shoeing cycle. Then they should be tough enought to go barefoot. If they're still sore it's time to reevaluate things....

I've seen cases where shod horses went sound as soon as the shoes were pulled and their feet required minor adjustments to allow full function to take place. These were horses having very little wrong with their hooves in the first place and likely a history, although not limited to, shoes always being pulled for a portion of each year. They may not have gotten their first shoes until age 6 also. It just depends. Then there are lame horses who were treated with various shoeing techniques that were already lame but serviceably sound with shoes until those quit working. One shoeing cycle is NOT going to turn them around to be sound. Their levels of pathology took more than a shoeing cycle to be created. Let's try years of improper hoof form if not being shod before maturity too. Let's try years of being stall kept (like some show horses) and only limited turnout if that was even an option for them.

IT DEPENDS!!!!

Tree

[Tree]

TB, but what about when your horse is in total pain? I have been using his boots, turning him out, walking him on harder surfaces..he is miserable...

How much time does he spend in his stall? Is he sore with boots too? Were his shoes simply pulled or were his hooves trimmed too? Do his heels expand when he is weighting each foot?

By the sound of things, I would suspect his feet aren't trimmed right so they can't function like they should. Shod horses tend to have too much bar material and this also includes pasture trimmed horses feet too. There could also be too little toe, too much heel and too much frog. Any of these things can cause a barefoot horse to be sore even while wearing boots.

Tree

[Tree]

Did you think that barefoot simply meant pulling the shoes from horses? At one time you'd have been correct but nowadays, barefoot has taken on new meanings so pulling shoes pales if the trim applied isn't suited towards allowing the hooves to function.

I started off learning how to do a "pasture trim" by my last farrier. I wasn't really wanting to go barefoot with my horses but just learn how to trim their hooves and knew I wasn't going to be putting nails into their feet until I'd signed up for a Farrier school first. Trouble was, the trim I was learning wasn't about getting hooves to really function but rather balance them well and make them look nice. Form to function never entered in to my early lessons so I lacked the mechanics. I got by for 7 years doing pasture trims but couldn't answer people's questions when cracks, separations, abscesses and whatnot formed in their horse's feet. I couldn't look at the hooves and see what they were saying because I just hadn't had any training to do so.

Anyway, when I ran into problems I began to search for answers and from sources other than my last farrier. This is when I really began to learn about hooves. Some lessons are learned the hard way and I think you're starting to find this out. What it is about your horse's feet that are making him so sore? Did the farrier point anything in particular out that he felt was causing the pain? That's the sort of stuff you need to know vs a blanket statement that the horse just needs shoes. He HAD shoes before and without them he's miserable???? What's up with that?

As far as farriers always being right. HAH! They're humans too. They know what they know. They can't know it all. Now that I've been spending time studying about hooves I can sort through farrier advice and toss out the junk science and keep the things that truly do apply to hooves. Since I'm pro-barefoot I also toss out the ideas that are based on horses needing shoes and look more closely at the methods which allow horses to compete barefoot and hold up to it. I have clients who do endurance, limited distance competitive trail, dressage, and ride for pleasure. The bulk of my client base have horses who were lame and in need of rehab. Some are content to see these horses happy in their twilight years as pasture ornaments while others returned to saddle work. All of them used to depend heavily upon their Farriers and thought they knew what they were doing. Well that's just it, they did know what they were doing but according to what they'd been taught. When farrier texts will label a contracted hoof as an example of "healthy", something is very wrong. Until you recognize the difference, you'd just go along with the label. "Healthy" could boil down to what you're used to seeing. That's scarey!

Tree


I am feeling fickle about him..he is the best, but I guess that doesnt always mean he is right..he said keep him turned out, no alfalfa, boots with the pads for riding..BUT he hasnt been out to see him, and when the farrier came out today, he was appalled at how much pain his feet were causing him..I guess that is why I am following these posts closely(but feel a bit caught between the heated debate going on in here..) I just have never experienced anything like this IE The problem(my horse being in pain) is a direct result of my decision to try barefoot... and I still havent really gotten answers from anyone about them having the same issues with THEIR barefoot transitions...HOW many weeks of pain..WHen do you realize it isnt going to work, WHAT do you do when he is too lame to walk and too sore for shoes..haven seen or heard it yet....

[luvmytbs]

I was only looking for ranges:

1-3 weeks approximately
3-6 weeks approximately
1-3 months approximately
3-6 months approximately
Over 6 months approximately
6 months to 1 year approximately

It seems that some of you just have no clue how long it can take for a sole to thicken. I find that very odd. If you can say for sure that horses usually grow an entire new hoof in approximately a year, then why don't you have the first clue as to how long it might possibly take the sole to thicken?

You know - so a person could get a general idea of what to expect.



I will take my horses as examples, perhaps that will show that it all depend on the horse and you cannot make a blanket statement on a time frame:

Horse #1: OTTB, in shoes until age 18 (fronts only for several years). Flat pancake feet, always vertical cracks on the two front feet.
Shoes pulled at 18. One year of abcesses here and there, two years of vertical cracks in two front feet. I think the total time he spent in shoes really messed his feet up badly. Two years into barefoot: No more vertical cracks, concavity starting. Now at age 24: Hasn't had a crack since he was twenty, concavity as good as he will ever have ( I am not dillusional about him ever achieving perfect concavity) and his hooves are approx. 1 inch wider then when we started six years ago. Can I take him on gravel and trail rides without being sore? Yes. He may start out cautious as we walk down the gravel drive way, but upon returning, same driveway no longer presents a problem.

Horse #2: OTTB, got him in at 9 years old, in front shoes. Shoes pulled immediately. Already had halfway nice concavity, but underrun heels and contracted heels.Not one abcess during transition ( he is now 12). Started on trails right away. Hardly cautious on the gravel drive. Two summers ago: Rode him up to five times a week on multiple terrain trails anywhere between three to five miles per ride. My trimmer was cussing at the "hard as a rock feet" but only because they were hard to trim. Obviously she looooved what all those trails were doing to his feet. His trim then only consisted of a little tweaking here and there, he was basically self trimming on the trails.

Horse #3: OTTB, got him last July, then 7 years old. Had been barefoot on pasture for approx. 3 months at that time. Nice feet with some concavity, but underrun and contracted heels. Not one abcess since I have had him. Not one cautious step on our gravel driveway.

Horse #4: TB, came to me last July for R&R from track, will be going back. He is 4 now. All four shoes came off in pasture before trimmer got out here. Total pancake nubby feet. No idea how they even got a shoe on that horse; absolutely screwed up feet! He is finally showing some concavity and growing new hoof as fast as my other ones. However, since he is in pasture, not doing anything, he is still somewhat tender going over gravel to come into the barn. No sense in conditioning him since they are just gonna slap shoes back on when he returns to the track. :mad: But at least he will have a hoof wall then.

My hoof cycle for all my horses is approx. seven months.

[luvmytbs]

I am feeling fickle about him..he is the best, but I guess that doesnt always mean he is right..he said keep him turned out, no alfalfa, boots with the pads for riding..BUT he hasnt been out to see him, and when the farrier came out today, he was appalled at how much pain his feet were causing him..I guess that is why I am following these posts closely(but feel a bit caught between the heated debate going on in here..) I just have never experienced anything like this IE The problem(my horse being in pain) is a direct result of my decision to try barefoot... and I still havent really gotten answers from anyone about them having the same issues with THEIR barefoot transitions...HOW many weeks of pain..WHen do you realize it isnt going to work, WHAT do you do when he is too lame to walk and too sore for shoes..haven seen or heard it yet....

I think pictures of the feet, including side views, front view, views from the rear and underneath would really help here. I am wondering if the bars have been addressed at all on this horse.

It might not even be a foot issue! Have you had his back checked, had a chiro out? One of my guys (horse #3 in my previous post), was short strided. I had the chiro do an adjustment on him week before last. Yesterday when I opened the gate so they can run to the barn, he surprised me with this absolutely incredible trot, fully extended in the front legs, rear legs just all in absolute suspension above the ground, it was a WOW moment! And he did all that on the very hard ground leading to the barn. Now if only I could have him look like that under saddle! :(

[Lookout]

I am feeling fickle about him..he is the best, but I guess that doesnt always mean he is right..he said keep him turned out, no alfalfa, boots with the pads for riding..BUT he hasnt been out to see him, and when the farrier came out today, he was appalled at how much pain his feet were causing him..I guess that is why I am following these posts closely(but feel a bit caught between the heated debate going on in here..) I just have never experienced anything like this IE The problem(my horse being in pain) is a direct result of my decision to try barefoot... and I still havent really gotten answers from anyone about them having the same issues with THEIR barefoot transitions...HOW many weeks of pain..WHen do you realize it isnt going to work, WHAT do you do when he is too lame to walk and too sore for shoes..haven seen or heard it yet....

I would be fickle about him too if your horse is in this much pain and he is making recommendations about what to do without even seeing him. It sounds like he should have been back there at your first call of a problem. It sounds like he needs more trimming, of the hard parts which can cause pain. This often happens with newly deshod horses if their hoof form is not good. They can need frequent trimming in the beginning until the inflammation, which causes the foot to grow really fast, dies down. I certainly would not be keeping him in a stall at this point. This is the exact scenario which causes such a problem with "barefoot" - not enough trimmed, causing pain, and the unknowledgeable trimmer saying just wait it out, and the owner in despearation goes back to shoes. If you were having problems with a farrier/shoes you would get a new farrier. The same advice can work here - at least get another opinion from a (qualified) barefoot person. You said elsewhere that the farrier won't put on shoes because his walls are so thin. That may or may not be a reason for his pain, but that has been caused by the shoeing, not by two weeks of barefoot. It sounds like yours is not a simple, straightforward case and you need more qualified help.

[Sannois]

I am not a supporter of either camp. For years I think most folks knew little about the Foot as a structure, how much importance there is on the whole function of the animals movement. I know I was always a throw shoes on and keep em on person. My TB that I have had for 8 years, was barefoot when I got him. The first week at had him his feet chipped up like crazy, Got the farrier out and put shoes on, He always had shoes until last summer. He had a wicked case of thrush a year ago, would not heal up. My Vet/ Chiro looked at him, and said you need to pull these shoes, and let the frog contact the ground. He is a big supporter of Gene Ovnichek Sp?? When he explained it to me and when I watched several of his tapes it made so much sense. MY farrier had been doing alot of reading on the barefoot trim. He was willing to follow the Vets instructions and trim my horse. IT took quite a while for his frog s to get healthy, and the thrush to clear.. Its still not perfect, but he has been much more comfortable. I dont know a Barefoot trimmer per say, but I do think that the concept makes alot of sense. I have only followed Gene O and have seen some shows on what he can do for a foundered or Navicular horse. All that said, I still would not hesitate to use shoes on another horse if the need arose. I knnow this is a touchy subject but I thought maybe another perspective would help. To me in the end, its what makes the foot function properly that really counts! :) Carry on! ;)

[Auventera Two]

Did you think that barefoot simply meant pulling the shoes from horses?

I have no idea who you're asking, but I'll answer for myself. No, I absolutely do not think this at all. There are substantial differences in a barefoot horse and one who is simply un-shod.

[Sannois]

So much for my two cents! :confused:

[goeslikestink]

get away --i got 4 unshod they are barefoot and no we dont have boots to go out in or ride dwon roads in-- and i have 4 that are shod --

[matryoshka]

Sorry Sannois--didn't mean to leave you hanging.

I think Gene O has a lot of good concepts. I found his recommended trim didn't help my OTTB's with underrun heels, but he's got so much good information out there. I'm sure a farrier or trimmer following his program would have figured it out--it just needs modification from the basice trims he outlines (on his website--haven't purchased his videos or attended his clinics).

I'm in agreement. Do what works for the horse.

[Tree]

I have no idea who you're asking, but I'll answer for myself. No, I absolutely do not think this at all. There are substantial differences in a barefoot horse and one who is simply un-shod.


If you continue down to the bottom of that post, you'll find a quote from excowgirlie. Hint, hint! ;)

Tree

[Su Valley]

I am in the midst of transition to barefoot. My horse has had three trims with another sceduled in a week-first trim, ten days and trim, two weeks and trim. We are sticking with two week trims for the time being.

Here are the improvements so far:

Swelling on all four cannons markedly improved. Completely gone in three, a bit remains on RH.

Heel is beginning to spread on RF, which was pretty badly contracted. Not much improvement on LF as yet as far as the severely contracted heel goes.

Horse is moving with vigour now. Hips are actually rolling at the walk, is beginning to stride out and land underneath himself.

Horse is landing flat on his hooves instead of toe first. At play, he actually lands heel first.

We are working on getting the long toe back, and correcting the underrun heels. This will take quite a while as the hoof grows out, perhaps another four or five months-we aren't sure. Each horse is different.

The seperation at the hoof wall is growing out (this was in both fronts) and we are very careful only to take as much as is safe in this aspect.

The crushed bars in the hinds are being relieved-again, a slow process-a tiny bit at a time.

Overall, I am delighted with the progress. My horse is a halter stallion, with smaller than I would like feet anyhow. He's a big bodied horse but he does have great feet-plenty of hoof wall and lots of concavity. The last trim my farrier did was a rotten four point-for what reason I couldn't say....it's a mystery. We have very few farriers in my area, and I had been using the person with the best reputation for the five years I have owned this horse. When I saw the results of the last trim I was pretty upset, but felt helpless to change anything until I chanced upon a barefoot trimmer.

In five years my horse went from an upright hoof with slightly contracted heels, to underrun with long toes, hoof wall seperation, and crushed bars. I won't be calling that farrier again, never mind her credentials with our best lameness vet/clinic. We are stumped as to why this happened-because it shouldn't have.

For the OP....we expect to have this completed by about July or so. In my case, five+ months. However, my horse is not stalled, and his paddock, while still icy, is hard in most places so there is some little bit of natural abrasion going on. I wouldn't try this if my horse was stalled on mats with shavings nearly all day.....would take forever to get where we want to be, lol

[Su Valley]

excowgirlie

Here is something to think about, that I have noticed....in addition to being barefoot and having to build a toe callous from scratch, your horse is also probably undergoing some changes in angles too. This means that the tendons/ligaments and bony structure are all changing at once. The degree of change depends on what you started out with, but there will be some change every single trim. These changes are going to take some time for the horse to adjust to, and every horse is going to react differently, if at all. For myself, I saw dramatic improvement in as little as 48 hours. For others, the discomfort could last longer.

After each trim I can tell that my horse needs time to adjust to the new angles/sensations, etc, and I allow him as much free movement as he chooses. To encourage leisurely movement, I have taken to spreading his hay out in the paddock (when weather permits of course) in many small piles...in this way, he walks from spot to spot casually-more like they would do in a large pasture when grazing. I personally feel this has helped him as his appetite has obviously won out over whatever degree of ouchiness he may have been feeling in those tendons, lol

Not being any sort of expert or anything, I would tend to conclude that the more frequent the trim, the less is done per trim-which means, the less discomfort my horse will have with each change. We are doing this slowly in baby steps, and only going as far as can be safely done. Just my own personal observation-ymmv

[excowgirlie]

thanks su!!

[matryoshka]

Excowgirlie,

I'm not sure anybody asked what your horse's feet were like before the shoes were pulled. This would make a difference in what to expect once the shoes are pulled. Is he flat-footed, platter footed, severly underrun? Does he have contracted heels? If he's got major changes to make, as Su Valley said, then he'll probably experience more discomfort.

It does raise concern when he won't move because of soreness. Since you hadn't mentioned him limping, I wasn't sure it was a pain issue at first. Now you've identified it as pain. Can you tell if it is the front or tha back of the feet that hurt? Are they hot? Is there swelling? Stocking up? Soft spots on the coronet?

If he's so sore he doesn't want move you may need to have a vet look at him. During the transition phase, you've got to decide whether to keep going. If I really want to go barefoot (and I do) I keep going and treat the horse's symptoms until he is comfortable. As I posted before, one of my OTTB's with platter feet abscessed in both fronts a few weeks after the shoes were pulled. Once he got over that, I wasn't about to go backwards and put shoes on. He has not abscessed again since then and he has some concavity, but not a lot. When he gets ouchy, it is now heel pain rather than toe pain.

I hate to sound so wishy washy, but we learn more about your situation with every post. There is no clearcut answer--wish there was! I also agree with everyone who has said that he needs to move around. If he is abscessing (just because the farrier didn't find one doesn't mean he isn't), it will help move the infection up the coronet. At least, that is what I have been told by former farriers. I'm not a vet.

It is so hard to see our horses in pain. My heart goes out to you and your horse. Hang in there. I can say that if you get through the transition phase, it is well worth it. Not only is it cheaper and better for his feet, but you don't have to worry so much about what to do when he pulls a shoe and all the other headaches that come with maintaining a horse on shoes.

[luvmytbs]

Two Simple and Excowgirlie

My guys got trimmed today so I took my camera.

1 st picture is of the TB on R&R with me since July 05. I do not condition him, he is more or less a pasture puff while on vacation, because he is going back to race training soon. He came in with flat soles and nubs for feet. He now has some concavity and has grown a hoof :)

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/luvmytbs/Stormy.jpg


picture #2: OTTB, with me since July 05. Had o.k. feet when he arrived.
in this picture we are trying to show concavity before starting the trim (he was trimmed four weeks earlier) Picture is a little weird due to the flash.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/luvmytbs/Picture004.jpg


picture #3: same OTTB after trim, yes we are going slow on the heels. This horse has NO problems on rough terrain!

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/luvmytbs/Picture009.jpg

And these are all front feet. frogs falling apart thanks to all the darn mud.

I hope this gives folks a little insight on what you can do with TB feet in a short period of time and how much difference it makes when you just leave a horse in pasture versus conditioning one!
I wish I had before pix from when these two guys arrived. :(

[excowgirlie]

great great pictures, TB...I have been meaning to get some pictures, I know that will help you guys know what I am experiencing..one thing I did get from all your replies is that my barefoot guy should come out and see my horse! I called and left a message today telling him I cant wait two weeks, I need him to look and tell me if every thing is progressing normally...the more I thought about it, the more mad I got that after 3 phone calls to him, he didnt offer to come out and see for himself, he just told me "thats normal, do this, blah blah blah, " and if he is as good as everyone round here says he is, he will call me back TODAY (yes I know its sunday) and make an appt to see us THIS WEEK>>>BTW, he IS doing better, walks with no pain in the pasture, but I think gets a little stocked up when in his stall for awhile..(but the stall has a nice little run too, so he really isnt THAT confined..)

[excowgirlie]

OH YEAH, my horse's frog is level with the rest of his hoof...it isnt inset like those pictures..that last one looks so good!

[luvmytbs]

I believe I have a trimmer lined up to do an initial evaluation and trim on her within the next week or so. Yeaaah!


great , I am sure you will learn a lot. :yes: And from the picture it looks like you have "a lot of foot" to work with, which is much easier then to start with a racing TB nubby pancake. :D

I finally really asked my trimmer questions again today, since I have been reading these threads lately. Ha, I had to laugh, because I was way behind of the changes she has made to her trims from when she started years ago. She has really evolved and sorted out the stuff that doesn't work.

We talked about scooping the quarters, which she used to do. So today she showed me that, no, she no longer scoops the quarters unless the foot asks for it. Which was the case on one side of one hoof on my old guy. All his other quarters did not want to be scooped. None if the other horses "asked" for scoops. I hope this makes sense.
I have to admit, I haven't paid that much attention for some time, because I trust her and she does such an awesome job.

So trimming five horses today took five hours (even with angle grinder)......lots of questions on my part and in depth answers from her. I bet she was more worn out from my questions then from trimming, LOL.

I hope your trimmer visit goes well. And keep us posted.

[excowgirlie]

I am envious two and tb, both your horse's feet look very healthy...*SIGH*

[luvmytbs]

I am envious two and tb, both your horse's feet look very healthy...*SIGH*


Excowgirlie

I am very confident your horse can get healthy happy barefoot feet too. I hope your trimmer returns your urgent calls.

Can you get some pix and post here?

[matryoshka]

Excowliegirl, hang in there. If he is getting more comfortable, the worst is over. It is really hard to go from pancake flat feet to barefoot. Those super thin walls just splay right out when they reach the ground and the horse ends up standing on his soles. This isn't quite what nature intended. If his feet were pancakes or "platters," then he really needs some time off of shoes.

I wish I had pictures of my OTTB's feet when he first arrived and now. His feet have grown 2 shoe sizes. He now wears size 3 Easy boots! He has thick walls and steeper angles. Also, they looked kind of weird when they were growing out. I never thought to take pictures, because I didn't know it would be that dramatic a difference.

Look at the top of the hoof near the coronet. You will see that the hoof is steeper near the top of the coronet--it is following the front edge of the coffin bone. As his hoof grows out, you will begin to see a change in the angle between the pre-barefoot hoof and the new hoof growing in. If he is being trimmed correctly, this line will continue to grow down the hoof. The upper part will continue to grow along the coffin bone--the bottom part is where you can see how separated the hoof wall is from the coffin bone. If you can picture how the new hoof will look when it is grown all the way down, you will have an idea of where his breakover will need to be. It's pretty cool. Depending on how quickly his feet grow, the new angle should reach the ground in 6 months to a year.

Even with the better hoof, my guy still only has the amount of concavity shown in lubmytbs first picture. That's as good as he gets, unless I can figure out whether I'm doing something wrong. He still needs frequent trims (4 to 5 weeks, tops) or his toes stretch forward again and his heels run under. I'm trimming another TB who is halfway through the rehab process, but he had good concavity to start with and is maintaining it between trims. He doesn't mind gravel.

luvmytbs, thanks for posting the pics! I should put my guy's on there, but I'm too chicken. You are much braver than I! :winkgrin:

[luvmytbs]

Look at the top of the hoof near the coronet. You will see that the hoof is steeper near the top of the coronet--it is following the front edge of the coffin bone. As his hoof grows out, you will begin to see a change in the angle between the pre-barefoot hoof and the new hoof growing in.

That will confirm that the hoofwall connection is getting tighter


Even with the better hoof, my guy still only has the amount of concavity shown in lubmytbs first picture. That's as good as he gets, unless I can figure out whether I'm doing something wrong.

According to the info my trimmer gave me yesterday, the more you back up the toes, the more concavity you will get. This doesn't mean in one trim. Perhaps if you backed up your horse's toes a little at time every couple of weeks, it would help in getting the concavity faster.


luvmytbs, thanks for posting the pics! I should put my guy's on there, but I'm too chicken. You are much braver than I! :winkgrin:

Visuals always work better for me than explanations. Why not share?;)

[excowgirlie]

my barefoot guy called me back last night (good thing) and said he would be happy to come out and look at my horse's feet on wednesday...I will try to get some pictures tonight, but I need to figure out how to upload(Im sure I can figure it out)..I agree I think the worst is over, but I have pressure from some to put his shoes back on..who knew this was going to turn into such a hassle???

[luvmytbs]

I agree I think the worst is over, but I have pressure from some to put his shoes back on..who knew this was going to turn into such a hassle???

:lol: Been there, done that. Good thing I am stubborn when it comes to trying something that makes sense. The proof is in the puddin'!

Maybe we should get a COTH online support group together and call it the BFA (Bare Foot Anonymous). :D

[matryoshka]

luvmytbs, I back up his toes to the white line each and every trim. If I don't, they'll run forward before the next trim. I'm experimenting with leaving a tiny bit more heel in the hope that it will accomplish the same thing. Only problem is that the heel horse grows straight forward, so it is a bit problematic.

I'm real interested to see what excowliegirl's trimmer says when he sees her horse. Keep us updated!

[BarbB]

I know - that's what I'm saying. In the horse world it has become just the "norm" for a horse to be sore for 2 or 3 days after getting a trim, and I just don't think that's the way it should be. I've even had farriers tell me not to ride for a few days because "she'll be sore." The only reason I can think of is that they planed the foot off flat in prep for a shoe, and then don't put the shoes on.

I was talking about the difference in an ordinary farrier trim and legitimate "barefoot" trim. :D

I only got this far into this thread and saw this!:eek:
I have had horses all my life in three states and have NEVER had a farrier tell me to expect my horse to be sore. I have had horses shod at shows for heaven's sake.....wait a few days til they're not sore?!?!?!?!?
I would run so fast all you would see is a cloud of dust.
I have never heard this from anyone.....on the other hand I and everyone I have ever known do not hire just any yahoo to trim or shoe horses.
References, references, references......never trust a stranger, anybody with a couple of tools can go into business.

[Aggie4Bar]

Two Simple - If it makes you feel better, the last guy I had out trimming my horses came highly recommended by vet and others. While he never lamed either of my horses, I won't be recommending his services to others. He's been around for about 30 years, so pretty much everyone in the area has heard of him. I tend to think perhaps some of the referals were not due to his work but rather due to his name.

The barefoot trimmer I'm using now is just a cop. He tends to his own horses, many in the mounted units, and a very few others. He doesn't call himself a farrier and doesn't trim for living. This was one of those friend of a friend of a friend deals. He is very well taught, well read, and can (and will! :eek:) talk your ear off regarding feet. Great trimmer and teacher though. Extremely thorough.

I would never suggest that someone avoid the better known farriers, but like everything else, you just have to test the waters and figure out what works. Some of the lesser knowns are quite capable. Just like most vets know next to zilch about nutrition, there are some out there who know even less about feet. So even when dealing with the vet, you have to take some things with grain of salt. I guess what I'm trying to say it, you just always have to do your research and keep looking for the right solution. Sometimes it's easy to find; other times, not.

[chism]

This may have been mentioned but have you tried something like Keratex? It worked wonders for my horses who were a little ouchy on the gravel when I first took off their shoes.

[donnie]

I have posted before that a farrier trim is not a barefoot trim. The difference between them is as great as night and day. I ought to know as I was a farrier. A farrier trims of excess growth , levels the hoof(balances) and removes flare.
I barefoot trimmer sculpts the hoof to look like a wild horses hoof. There is a huge difference. I will also add that the idea that TB's have crapp feet is a myth. The reason a hoof is crappy is because it is basically dead. Not enough circulation to ensure enough nutrients are fed to the hoof laminae. You simply have to get circulation happening and unfortunately this can't be done with shoes. All the TB's that I have seen correctly barefoot trimmed have beautiful hooves. The condition of the hooves is determined by the person who uses the tools

[Lookout]

Thanks for those words of wisdom donnie. It means a lot coming from a former farrier. My experience pretty much mirrors yours, without the benefit of the farrier experience/comparison. The hoof reflects the quality of the work on it (and the lifestyle, of course!)

[Tree]

I have posted before that a farrier trim is not a barefoot trim. The difference between them is as great as night and day. I ought to know as I was a farrier. A farrier trims of excess growth , levels the hoof(balances) and removes flare.

I guess it depends on where the Farrier got his/her training as to what sort of trim they'll do.

When it comes down to balancing hooves, this seems to be a rather gray area because you could say the same about trimming methods balancing feet too but "balance" is a relative term according to what you're taught.

As a trimmer I think about balancing the hoof so that the coffin bone is ground parallel. A Farrier's idea of balance could mean maintaining the coffin bone with a palmar angle (tipped). A common part of balance would be the side to side aspect between either Farrier's or Trimmer's methods.

When it comes to trimming excess, yes and no as far as Farriery goes. There could be a lot to mention about this but I'll just stick to what stands out most in my mind and that would be how Farriers (or some) and Trimmers (some, again), will nipper away ANY toe wall which is higher than the toe sole. This is what I was taught by my last farrier....begin by nippering at the toe center and then removing wall above the sole plane. Go back to center and repeat along the other half of the foot. This can leave barefoot horses sore following a trim because they've lost any wall that was acting as a natural "shoe" keeping the sole passive.

A barefoot trimmer sculpts the hoof to look like a wild horses hoof. There is a huge difference.

I would just like to point out that wild horse hooves vary according to the types of terrain they live on. Soft terrain wild horse hooves are very different when compared to harsh terrain ones. So I think it's safer to say that barefoot trimmers are supposed to trim the hoof capsule in a manner to mimick the SHAPE of the coffin bone...the distal side is vaulted so the sole has concavity with the frog and bars blending in with it and the coffin bone is wider along its base and narrowest at the top. Oh and front feet coffin bones are rounder in shape while the hinds are spade-like (barring any remodeling changes).

Barefoot trimming methods aren't all alike though. So it's a good idea if horse owners become familiar with wild horse hoof shapes according to terrain. It seems that most texts will use the harsh terrain hoof models vs soft terrain ones. The harsh terrain ones get daily wear while the softer terrain ones look more like neglected backyard horse hooves with chunks chipping off or tearing away...not very pretty in other words.

Tree

[ivy62]

I have had a lot of experience on the receiving end of barefoot trims. My horse came off the track with awful feet. Flat like pancakes and very brittle. His hoof would not even hold a shoe so I had no choice but to go barefoot. The problem is knowing what you are looking at and understanding the fuction of the hoof. If the frog has contracted and the digital cushion is not strong your horse will be very sore for a long time. The transition period is very sucessful with the use of boots. I have old macs and wouldn't trade them for anything in the world! We have been around the block with SHP trimmers and people who follow the Pete Ramey/Jackson type trim. The problem is that they try to make every hoof look the same. Do your feet look the same? Also, when making changes to a body that has walked and run a certain way changing the hoof can create discomfort because of muscle memory. After 2 HUGE abscesses I found a farrier who also trims barefoot to look at my horse. She agreed he probably could stay barefoot and make the transition but it would take a long time and he would be uncomfortable. So I opted for the short term for front shoes, I had to think long and hard on this one. But after starting with gel pads then full snow pads to rim pads and now just a shoe he is actually getting REAL concavity! He even threw a shoe and was sound on the bare foot! I am hoping to pull his shoes soon and he should be fine. The lesson here is having soneone who knows how to balance a foot and not be to aggressive. Strasser is very aggressive! If anyone is interested try reading barefoothorsecare yahoo group.....very open minded and realistic too.
Just my 2 cents

[excowgirlie]

this last round of posting has been the most encouraging yet...I must admit there is a slight chance I will go back to shoes...but the next two weeks will tell the tale...(as he cant be shod anyway because he is too tender) I have been doing everything in my power to keep my little guy comfy..he is pretty spoiled these days with the oily diet of flax, boss, hoof supplement,stratagy, tablespoon of oil, cut up carrots and apples...he eats better than my family does for sure!~he gets grass hay, timothy and packa verdi, and I mix it all up like a salad...and then turn out all night, not to mention a fan in his stall, and on top of all that, brushing and baths, hand walks, and no riding!! little spoiled shit!

[luvmytbs]

EG

As someone earlier suggested, to use the Keratex too.
It is rather expensive but I hear it works (only used it a couple of times myself). Or go the less expensive route of venice terpentine.

[JB]

but the next two weeks will tell the tale...

What made you set a deadline of 2 weeks? Just curious. I haven't read every single post on this thread in the last few pages, so if you answered this already, my apologies, but do you have/are you getting boots for him? That will make both of your lives so much easier during the transition.

[matryoshka]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure she got boots. He was still very uncomfortable. He seems to be getting better, and her barefoot specialist is coming back out in the next day or so to take a look.

There's a lot to read on this thread! I have found it very helpful for my own situations, so thanks for asking the original question excowgirlie!

[excowgirlie]

I am thinking I will stay with this...my barefoot trimmer came out yesterday, said my tb was coming along fine..the callous is building, he is not as ouchy, and tonight I rode with his boots on and he did great...thank you all for the support, honestly, I dont think I could have stuck it out with out all the input...I hope we can keep it up! I feel my baby will be the healthier for it in the long run!!

[luvmytbs]

That is wonderful. Keep us posted, and if you have any questions in the future, just post them here.

[Tree]

I am thinking I will stay with this...my barefoot trimmer came out yesterday, said my tb was coming along fine..the callous is building, he is not as ouchy, and tonight I rode with his boots on and he did great...thank you all for the support, honestly, I dont think I could have stuck it out with out all the input...I hope we can keep it up! I feel my baby will be the healthier for it in the long run!!

Hopefully as this horse progresses the toe wall will take over so the sole callous will deminish.

I'm finding that sole callouses form when there hasn't been enough toe wall height. By height, I mean in cases where the toe wall is either worn excessively (frontally loaded hoof = improper balance), or the hooves are purposely trimmed taking away any toe wall that is higher than the sole plane. So the toe callous forms because it is having to become the weightbearing area for lack of toe wall doing that job. This also occurs when toe laminar connections are weakened so that the toe wall flares out from the sole vs remaining strong and building up the toe height of the hoof.

With properly balanced hooves a natural SHOE will form as the outer wall becomes the active weightbearing surface and allows the sole to be passive. This is what horse shoes are about for shod hooves so why is the same principle not applied to barefooted horses too?

Tree

[Auventera Two]

Hmmm. All the resources I've found so far say that toe callous is a good thing. It means that the sole at the toe is thick enough that it is contacting the ground, and therefore hardening and thickening.

I was just looking at one of my horses the other day. The wall is tall enough that it is definitely weight bearing and contacting the ground, but the sole at the toe is also very thick causing it to contact the ground evenly with the wall.

If the toe has the job of propelling the horse forward at the end of each step, it would make sense to me that an evenly thick, tough toe callous would be desirable. I wouldn't want the tremendous weight and stress of propelling the horse's body forward to be the sole responsibility of the toe wall. It seems to me that the wall would be pulled and the lamina stressed if only the wall were contacting the ground.

My understanding is that the sole is bear part of the weight also, and not 100% on the walls.

Like you all know - I'm just learning, and sure am no expert! :D I just found this info to conflict with everything else I've been digging up in regard to the toe callous. Please feel free to correct any of this that is wrong - I'm trying to learn.

[Lookout]

Hmm - the hind foot "propels" the horse forward (I guess), but not really the fronts. And when people talk about toe callous, they're talkinga about front feet mostly. It has more to do with the percentage of weight distribution on the front feet and the front part of the foot.

[Tree]

Hmmm. All the resources I've found so far say that toe callous is a good thing. It means that the sole at the toe is thick enough that it is contacting the ground, and therefore hardening and thickening.

I know there are those who THINK sole contacting the ground is a good thing. However, when farrier's shoe hooves, they make the sole passive so that it will not touch the shoe surface at all. I don't think Farriery has gone wrong by keeping the soles passive given Dr. Pollitt's Hoof Studies video that showed the changes in blood circulation to the sole when the hoof walls were over trimmed to allow sole to become actively weightbearing. It wasn't good.

I was just looking at one of my horses the other day. The wall is tall enough that it is definitely weight bearing and contacting the ground, but the sole at the toe is also very thick causing it to contact the ground evenly with the wall.

If the toe has the job of propelling the horse forward at the end of each step, it would make sense to me that an evenly thick, tough toe callous would be desirable. I wouldn't want the tremendous weight and stress of propelling the horse's body forward to be the sole responsibility of the toe wall. It seems to me that the wall would be pulled and the lamina stressed if only the wall were contacting the ground.

Lookout already pointed out how the hinds tend to propell the horse and I agree with her. This is also why the hinds are spade shaped or oval vs having a broader rounder toe like the fronts. However, I'm referring to "healthy" shaped hinds vs those that have morphed because of improper trimming or other factors causing bone/hoof shape changes to take place.

You have a different idea of hoof mechanics than I do. Properly balanced hooves wouldn't weaken or stress the laminar connections which would also include the toe region. So this goes back to form and function according to form. You're concerned that the movement phases (mainly breakover) and traction would weaken the toe if there were no sole callous. Well, according to my experiences, a better defined ridge, whether it be shoe or natural wall horn, has a better chance to offer grip in various types of footing than a wider/broader ridge. One example in shoes would be racing plate toe grabs which are a thin ridge of inserted steel for aluminum plates.

With the wild horses that live on abrasive footing, there is only a very small amount of sole making contact with the ground and hoof wall also. These active portions of hoof are next to each other so it would be the inner most wall horn (that which is closer to the white line) and outer most edges of sole because the rest is concave.

My understanding is that the sole is bear part of the weight also, and not 100% on the walls.

Like you all know - I'm just learning, and sure am no expert! :D I just found this info to conflict with everything else I've been digging up in regard to the toe callous. Please feel free to correct any of this that is wrong - I'm trying to learn.

I understand what you're saying because I've read this and heard it said too and of course, I'm no expert either. I just happen to know some things because I've spent the past 16 years working with hooves. I'm learning something new all of the time and some of it happens because my skills have developed to another level. In other words, the hooves I trim have changed along with my ability to trim them.

Terrain varies and hoof form will too according to the terrain. You are describing what people have found in abrasive terrain wild hooves...the part about portions of the sole being actively weighted/contacting the ground. That's an abrasive terrain wear pattern. This does not mean that all horses should have the same hoof form though.

Most of the horses I trim live on semi-abrasive footing and it can become more soft during rainy seasons or spells. I trimmed 2 horses and a med sized pony today. The standardbred gelding's hooves had a "natural shoe" on all 4's which just means he had passive soles and an active ridge of wall horn and no callouses at all. The other horse had excessive toe wear because her heels had gotten too high (singlefooting type breed). The pony's hooves also had a natural shoe rim of wall horn but not as much as the standardbred's. However, for this pony, it was a vast improvement when his laminar connections had been weak before (wall flares). They have well draining pasture but are being fed round bales inside a pea graveled round pen with the water source and shelter close by. They'll leave the pen to go pick about their pasture but not very much until the grass begins to grow more. But with the amount of wall horn height the gelding had, his feet would have been ideally suited for trails with rocks because his soles had clearance between them and the ground. This is just one thing shoes do for shod horses...put some distance between the ground surfaces and the soles.

You're not wrong. You're just talking about a particular hoof wear pattern according to footing conditions. Sometimes people don't realize that wear patterns can be different. This is what I think happens to those who go for the wild horse trim. It can seem like a one-size-fits-all deal if one doesn't pay attention to HOW the wild horse's hooves got the way they did.

Tree

[excowgirlie]

well I was impressed with the pictures (I think they were tb 's) and I noticed how the way the hoof was trimmed it resemble a shoe...I cant wait to attain that result...my own natural shoe..it can ONLY be a good thing!

[excowgirlie]

I think this thread should be stickied..it has been SO informative, and I am sure the barefoot debate will go on and on..

[LMH]

Wow....the discussion on toe callous just made something click in my head.

If I understand you Tree, would you say a foot with a toe callous is a 'less healthy foot' in one sense-so the callous jumped in to share some load-then when balance/hoof health is better the callous will go away because the toe can now carry the load properly?

Also it seems the trim styles that promote toe callous are more the NB, 4 point styles ( I assume throw Ramey in this crowd now)? where the breakover is back further so the toe is usually backed up---thus leaving less to wall to share the load, making a toe callous necessary?

Or on a runaway foot you might need to back up the toe therefore require a callous again temporarily until the wall gets back in shape to carry things?

I have VERY recently been struggling with this idea of callouses being healthy vs. not...I won't go into all the details as it would be YAWN for most-but some observations I have made in my horses, combined with what I learned from KC got my head spinning.

Just when you can start feeling smug again, some conversation like this comes along and makes you rethink things!:lol:

[Tree]

Wow....the discussion on toe callous just made something click in my head.

If I understand you Tree, would you say a foot with a toe callous is a 'less healthy foot' in one sense-so the callous jumped in to share some load-then when balance/hoof health is better the callous will go away because the toe can now carry the load properly?

I'd have to say a toe calloused hoof is having balance issues and balance and health relate to function. The callous formed as a result of active contact with the ground when there was no toe wall present to be active instead. I've found that once toe walls take over the sole callous goes away. If that's proper, I guess depends on what qualifies as "proper". I'm reporting my findings based on what I have been finding as a result of my work which relates directly to a particular ideal for hoof balance. You know how that varies though between the methods of hoofcare, across the board.

Also it seems the trim styles that promote toe callous are more the NB, 4 point styles ( I assume throw Ramey in this crowd now)? where the breakover is back further so the toe is usually backed up---thus leaving less to wall to share the load, making a toe callous necessary?

I do a 4-point trim but I'd have to say that HOOF BALANCE is the defining factor here between what I do and what the ones you were talking about do. A toe callous seems related to hoof balance issues. You can still have 4 active points and varied front to back balance differences. I don't know that causing hooves to form toe callouses is necessary at all if it means overloading the toe as this would definitely affect the horse's structurally.

Or on a runaway foot you might need to back up the toe therefore require a callous again temporarily until the wall gets back in shape to carry things?

Yes, MAYBE. Again, if there is no toe wall there to do its job the sole has to take over that responsibility. However, a 4-point trim means there are 2 active points either side of the toe center so it won't necessarily mean a sole toe callous will form. So I'll have to say, it depends.

I have VERY recently been struggling with this idea of callouses being healthy vs. not...I won't go into all the details as it would be YAWN for most-but some observations I have made in my horses, combined with what I learned from KC got my head spinning.

Just when you can start feeling smug again, some conversation like this comes along and makes you rethink things!:lol:

I know what you mean! The toe wall and toe sole callous deal just recently came to my attention. I'd been struggling with heel heights when trimming and it seems that once that was cleared up I began to observe more and more hooves having toe wall higher than the toe sole and forming that "natural shoe". I know that high heels will shift more weight onto the toes and regularly see excess toe wear so there is never any to trim other than back up the outer edges when finishing them on a hoof stand. There is always heel horn to remove though. As time goes by, this may change to having equal amounts of horn around the entire hoof to remove. It remains to be seen. However, I can't help but feel that if that becomes the case that those hooves would be balanced correctly as wear and growth would be equal vs off balanced (uneven growth or wear).

Ain't hooves cool?

Tree

[imajacres]

I had a great barefoot trimmer that came up from Vt, but now it is too far for her. She studied with Dr Strasser, and the horses had the natural shoe look going, and were all doing great, especially the previously flatfooted 17'2h behemoth that had navics like swiss cheese and had been on sneaker pads and meds before just to be pasture sound.
I need to find another farrier, I am south of MOntreal, Quebec. Any ideas, anyone?
you can email too, imajacre@total.net


http://www.matchmakerequine.com

[missyrideson]

Lets remember people that the ancestors of the horse evolved somewhere around 34-54 million years ago and modern Equus about 10,000 years ago. There was certainly not someone out there with a rasp and nippers beckoning to the horses to get their hooves timmed.

We must also remember that many people do not keep domesticated horses naturally. Unless your horse is roaming over a couple miles of pasture everyday over various terrain, they are not wearing their hooves down naturally. We also influence their existence when we ride and train.

We must also think of the genectic havoc people have caused in breeding. Line breeding and "shallow" genetic pools have increased the occurence of mutations. We are producing horses with feet that are too small and bodies that are too large.

Call me a naturalist but as a scientist I can only say that 54 million years of evolution can't be wrong. Because we have domesticated animals we have the responsibility of helping them live the way their genes are designed.

An environmental factor such as shoes on a horse from the age of 2-3 until they are in their teens DOES have an influence on the growth and form of the hoof and bones of the leg. Just think of physical manipulations in people. In China wealthy women used to wrap their feet so that they would remain small; resulting in deformed feet that were not meant for walking. Their is also tribes that considered a stetched neck a beautiful thing. Women wear rings around their neck to lengthen it and then support it after the lengthening. The point of this is that YOU can change the physical makeup of yourself and your horse.

Have you ever taken off your shoes after the long winter and walked outside barefoot? When you walk across the gravel of a driveway does it hurt? The pain resulted in the environmental factor of removing the shoes on your feet, something you are not used to. You didn't have a tough buildup of skin cells on the bottom of your feet to protect you from the gravel. Have you ever seen the Kenyans running the Boston marathon without shoes, now imagine running 26.2 miles without shoes after you've worn shoes through your entire training. Your would probably have bloody stumps left.

When you remove your horse's shoes you are essentially changing the influence of his/her environment. Suddenly the earth feels different on the sole of his foot. The angle of the hoof may change, influencing the delicate structure inside the hoof. Depending on the strenght of your horses hoof when it had shoes your horse may or not be uncomfortable; resulting in lameness.

But like the shoeless Kenyan or one of us barefoot on our driveway after a long winter of shoes, you will get "used" to it. Your body will change in ways to protect you, ways that evolved a long long time ago to ensure your survival.

It is a personal choice to keep horses in light of millions of years of evolution or to keep them with human inventions and with the comfort of humans in mind. There is a BIG difference between what is EVOLVED to what is ENVIRONMENTAL. We have a responsibility to keep domesticated animals happy and healthy; only you can make the choice but do the research first!

[LMH]

It always cracks me up when evolution enters these kind of discussions.

I don't know why-it just does.

[Lookout]

The whole post is a big non-sequitur.

[excowgirlie]

I was thinking what you guys were saying, and almost just posted a big old "HUH?", but didnt...glad I wasnt alone in that.

[Tree]

Lets remember people that the ancestors of the horse evolved somewhere around 34-54 million years ago and modern Equus about 10,000 years ago. There was certainly not someone out there with a rasp and nippers beckoning to the horses to get their hooves timmed.

Yes, they started off as little dog-like creatures, the Eohippus, having 4 toes on their fronts and 3 on the hinds with pads similar to dogs. The Eohippi were around 54 to 38 million years ago. Then about 37 to 26 million years ago came the Mesohippus and Merychippus having longer legs and straighter backs being a larger animal. At this time each limb had 3 toes. Evolution is a slow process, no? The single toed Equus has been around for a million years although the single toed Pliohippus was around 10 to 5 million years ago.

We must also remember that many people do not keep domesticated horses naturally. Unless your horse is roaming over a couple miles of pasture everyday over various terrain, they are not wearing their hooves down naturally. We also influence their existence when we ride and train.

I'm reminded of this everyday when I look to see what the thread topics are in here. It's obvious that domestication wreaks havoc when most of the care topics regard physical and emotional issues pertaining to horses owned by posters. I'm not sure if the roaming part applies though. True "natural" conditions would meet all needs natural to keeping horses healthy, mind, body and spirit.

We must also think of the genectic havoc people have caused in breeding. Line breeding and "shallow" genetic pools have increased the occurence of mutations. We are producing horses with feet that are too small and bodies that are too large.

If we are going to keep the focus on the overal structure of the horse, genetics have truly not changed them. Horse keeping and management practices DO affect how Equus Caballus develope though. Line breeding can bring out recessive genes but the base structures are still that of Equus.

Call me a naturalist but as a scientist I can only say that 54 million years of evolution can't be wrong. Because we have domesticated animals we have the responsibility of helping them live the way their genes are designed.

Is Equus, as a species, going to evolve into something else in less time that it took all of their ancestors to evolve? It seems to me that evolution takes a great deal of time as the creatures adapt to their environment. If they can't, they gradually die off leaving the better suited ones to strengthen the gene pool. We're more likely to inhibit the function of the evolved Equus...and it seems we've been doing this since horses appeared to need hoof protection.

An environmental factor such as shoes on a horse from the age of 2-3 until they are in their teens DOES have an influence on the growth and form of the hoof and bones of the leg. Just think of physical manipulations in people. In China wealthy women used to wrap their feet so that they would remain small; resulting in deformed feet that were not meant for walking. Their is also tribes that considered a stetched neck a beautiful thing. Women wear rings around their neck to lengthen it and then support it after the lengthening. The point of this is that YOU can change the physical makeup of yourself and your horse.

Yes, you can meddle with the developement of living things. However, manipulating a living creature isn't going to cause it to pass along those mutations like tiny bound feet, elongated necks or under developed hooves because they were shod before maturity because it wasn't genetic in origin but rather, outside enfluences.

Have you ever taken off your shoes after the long winter and walked outside barefoot? When you walk across the gravel of a driveway does it hurt? The pain resulted in the environmental factor of removing the shoes on your feet, something you are not used to. You didn't have a tough buildup of skin cells on the bottom of your feet to protect you from the gravel. Have you ever seen the Kenyans running the Boston marathon without shoes, now imagine running 26.2 miles without shoes after you've worn shoes through your entire training. Your would probably have bloody stumps left.

Yes or sometimes would walk barefoot during the winter too being too lazy to slip on some shoes to go out to the car, across the graveled parking area, to get something. ;) The factor was that my feet were not CONDITIONED for that task since I tend to wear shoes outside of the house. I can't expect my feet to suddenly adapt if they have no exposure to condition them. If anyone were to continue until their feet were bloody stumps, I'd wonder if they were nerved! LOL!

When you remove your horse's shoes you are essentially changing the influence of his/her environment. Suddenly the earth feels different on the sole of his foot. The angle of the hoof may change, influencing the delicate structure inside the hoof. Depending on the strenght of your horses hoof when it had shoes your horse may or not be uncomfortable; resulting in lameness.

Well, the environment isn't likely any different it's just a matter of having removed the artificial barrier that stood between the hoof and ground surfaces. As far as angles changing, that would only happen according to how the hoof had been set up artificially...barring any trim work. You'd only mentioned pulling the shoes though. Strengtth or weakness of the hoof may not be a factor when it comes to what a horse will feel. Shoes do alter hoof function in the sense that hooves are shod while unweighted. Without the shoe in place, the hooves may or may not expand now when weighted. That would depend on hoof form.

But like the shoeless Kenyan or one of us barefoot on our driveway after a long winter of shoes, you will get "used" to it. Your body will change in ways to protect you, ways that evolved a long long time ago to ensure your survival.

Going back to evolution, I'm quite certain the peoples of Kenya have the same skeletal structures that other humans have (barring birth defects). Of course tenderfooted people could adapt if they did as the Kenyans and vice versa too meaning Kenyans could become tenderfoots if they always wore shoes outside.

It is a personal choice to keep horses in light of millions of years of evolution or to keep them with human inventions and with the comfort of humans in mind. There is a BIG difference between what is EVOLVED to what is ENVIRONMENTAL. We have a responsibility to keep domesticated animals happy and healthy; only you can make the choice but do the research first!

It is a choice if you have the option. Not everyone does. Not everyone recognizes every option available either. So we'll continue to read about horses being retired at ages under 10 or higher becaues of this or that and continue to read all about the various chronic this's and that's too. ;)

Tree

[missyrideson]

Tree.....

Sometimes what I mean to say doesn't come out right. Obviously you are well educated in the sciences and know what you are talking about!!

Mostly I am trying to say how significant environmental influences can be on all living creatures.

I can't help to think that selective breeding has influenced horse hoof health in some way.

My appy has nice big meaty hooves (look at them dinner plates my friend used to say, lol) He's been bare foot for years now, 22 years old and only lame once, with shoes on, years ago.

I think I lean towards yay on the barefoot part of this issue although some horses may require a case by case descision. When it comes to high impact equestrian sports I am not sure. As a true science geek I must point out that humans didn't enter horse's lives until very recently in in their existence timeline. Our influences require special care to support what the horse already had....

I jumped my guy when he was younger without shoes and he did perfectly fine. I also rode lots of ponies with nice strong unshod feet over the river and through the woods.

As I move on to another horse soon, I say, we will just have to wait and see...