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View Full Version : Fracking ... a spin off.



hosspuller
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:23 PM
This was posted regarding fracking gas wells.


Brilliant, yes a baseline is smart to have... but it doesn't change the fact that if drilling or fracking ruins water wells, regardless of a baseline that will show it's ruined and how ruined,... it's still ruined.

That was my point.
Regardless of a baseline, once you've destroyed your well water... based on comparing post to the baseline, it's still ruined.

And yes, or course someone has to do it to figure out if it in fact is problematic, but like the testing of many drugs out there, the challenge is finding people dumb enough to want to take that chance that it in fact is dangerous and offer themselves up as guinea pigs.

There are two points in reply:

1: there are no cases of water well contamination by fracking fluid.

2: There are many people that have taken the chance and allowed fracking to be done on their land.


Would you allow a fracked gas well to be drilled on your farm? (assuming you have enough space for that you can still live there) figure on a 3 acre well site for discussion. Could be more or less in practice.

LauraKY
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:26 PM
No.

rustbreeches
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:29 PM
Since mineral rights are separate from water rights and actual property ownership in certain western states, it isn't even up to the property owner in some cases.

Couture TB
Feb. 23, 2013, 02:27 PM
Am I the only one who went somewhere else with the Fracking? Could just be because hubby and I watched Battlestar

carolprudm
Feb. 23, 2013, 02:40 PM
Since mineral rights are separate from water rights and actual property ownership in certain western states, it isn't even up to the property owner in some cases.
And if your neighbor allows it you might also be affected

rustbreeches
Feb. 23, 2013, 06:58 PM
And if your neighbor allows it you might also be affected

In our county the vast majority of rural folk actually have city water, with a septic field. Many water wells were dried off because of supposed issues with sending water in to Nebraska. Unfortunately the water table is so high in our area now that basements are being flooded, as well as corrals, usable pasture, etc. Frac'ing still scares the hell out of me because at what point is beating the shit out of Earth going to come back and bite us in the butt? I get that it has helped the economy in many states, but I personally don't think it is without unforetold side effects

sophie
Feb. 23, 2013, 07:07 PM
Would you allow a fracked gas well to be drilled on your farm?

I don't own a farm but I think there needs to be more research and a better appreciation of long-term side-effects on the environment, before we go all out with fracking.
So, if I did own enough land...I would say no.
So,

stolen virtue
Feb. 23, 2013, 07:46 PM
I have submitted a "deep well injection" permit application in California. The well that I was responsible for was 5,000 feet below ground surface (bgs) and in California a detailed assessment of surrounding wells within 5 miles needs to be prepared. The application MUST provide a detailed description of the geology of the total depth. The only way to get that information is through old oil well data. You are not allowed to drill a test well to determine geological conditions.

I suspect that in other states you can guess or estimate the geology at that depth, so there can be problems if the actual geology is not documented BEFORE you drill the well. I would want to see the plans and if there was no documented geology, I would be concerned.

And yes, if your neighbor has a fracking operation you are at risk for issues regardless of it not being on your property. Potential problems could be over 5 miles or more from the fracking well.

hosspuller
Feb. 23, 2013, 09:55 PM
Stolen Virtue ... What purpose was the injection? Waste disposal?

stolen virtue
Feb. 23, 2013, 09:59 PM
Waste disposal for the cooling tower water for a power plant.

Daydream Believer
Feb. 23, 2013, 10:24 PM
No, definitely not. My Stepfather knows people in Pennsylvania who can light their tap water on fire...methane gas released by fracking. Now there are cases popping up of animals becoming sick also. No thanks. If I had enough land to make a difference, I'd definitely say no as things are now.

Milocalwinnings
Feb. 23, 2013, 10:40 PM
No, definitely not. My Stepfather knows people in Pennsylvania who can light their tap water on fire...methane gas released by fracking. Now there are cases popping up of animals becoming sick also. No thanks. If I had enough land to make a difference, I'd definitely say no as things are now.

I've personally seen this happen. It's insane. I am absolutely against fracking.

If anyone is interested, this is a friend's blog on hydro-fracking. She is very active in the fight against this. http://laurensjournalonfracking.tumblr.com/

Kryswyn
Feb. 23, 2013, 10:53 PM
We're looking at purchasing land upstate NY and the property we first looked at was less than a mile from a closed well. If they reopened it, it would be as a fracking well and we would've been listening to construction, water trucks 24/7, and we would be watering our livestock from a spring fed pond directly down hill from the well. We passed on that one.

saddleup
Feb. 23, 2013, 11:48 PM
Yeah, I totally went to "Battlestar Galactica" on this one!

CVPeg
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:28 AM
This is a huge local issue right now.

My closest neighbor with a contract is just 2 miles away house wise, but his land abuts mine, and I have 3/4 mile frontage. Fracking is done at the location of the individual with the contract, and then goes horizontally anywhere. Neighbors have no right to refuse horizontal intrusion under their own properties. Right now I have absolutely unbelievable lovely spring water.

And frightening considering the governor's lack of taking a stand, or rather trying to find a way to squeeze it in as acceptable. Then again, the old NYC vs Upstate battles continue.

True, upstate NY really needs work, jobs, income.

But, hello - the companies STILL aren't divulging the ingredients in fracking fluids. "Because it's proprietary" don't you know. No, because they don't dare.

I really think no one should be making decisions about fracking, until they've lived in an area of gas production. And then decide if that's what they want back home. It's very nice to think about, and perceive the dollars rolling in, while living in an ivory governmental tower, or nice green fields and believing all the tales the frackers want you to hear.

But my ex was an environmental engineer for the State - for the DEC whom the governor is waiting for to finalize studies. Suffice it to say, the agency can have lots of areas where things aren't done quite right. Then we went to the Middle East, where he was an environmental engineer for the largest gas/oil company in the world. Believe me, if that doesn't teach you about where real world influence is, nothing does.

Even locally, BIL, a man who usually is spot on about business - said not to worry as very influential local philanthropists are/will be up in arms about local development of fracking. As much as I would love to agree with him, I've seen first hand the influence of oil/gas production. It will make no difference if they truly decide to go there.

The only saving grace for my immediate location, is that it seems to be at the edge of the Marcellus shale, and that fracking will probably go on to a larger degree further to the south.

clanter
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:49 AM
This is a huge local issue right now.

My closest neighbor with a contract is just 2 miles away house wise, but his land abuts mine, and I have 3/4 mile frontage. Fracking is done at the location of the individual with the contract, and then goes horizontally anywhere. Neighbors have no right to refuse horizontal intrusion under their own properties. Right now I have absolutely unbelievable lovely spring water.

.

Unless you are in valley and the drilling has taken place at much higher elevation, drilling or facting cannot affect a spring as a spring's water is a resurfacing of water that has entered the aquifer from a higher elevation.

Fracting is injection to much lower depths

Louise
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:59 AM
CVPeg, you aren't out of the woods and neither am I. The talk these days is all about the Marcellus shale, and that is in the lower part of NY State, in the Southern Tier. However, we sit on the Utica shale, and that also has potential for gas drilling. I think that they're not pursuing it right now because of all of the larger cities that sit on the Utica shale -- Albany, Schenectady, Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo. Those large cities are capable of putting up a much more extensive defense against the gas companies than the small towns and villages in the Southern Tier. And, it might be harder to extract the gas from Utica shale than from Marcellus shale.

But, rest assured that, if the gas companies gain access to the Southern Tier, they will ravage that, and then, when they can't turn a profit there, they will come after the Utica shale. Fracking is a huge pyramid scheme. Wells are being depleted much more quickly than anticipated and the companies involved are having to open more and more of them to keep new investments coming in and to remain profitable. The idea that fracking will be done responsibly is ridiculous. It might be able to be done, but, big business, like oil and gas, is always seeking to cut costs. As time goes by, safety is one of the first areas that gets cut. Inspections get reduced. Needed replacement of parts gets delayed. Safety personnel lose their jobs due to cutbacks. All of that costs money and spending money cuts into the bottom line. Just look at what happened in the Gulf because of that very thing.

We need to be vigilant and pro-active here in NY State. We face a foe who obscures (even the DEC admits that the reason that they are having trouble making a decision is that they cannot get the information that they need from the oil and gas companies) and, I would suspect, lies, about what the process entails.

CVPeg
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:06 AM
Unless you are in valley and the drilling has taken place at much higher elevation, drilling or facting cannot affect a spring as a spring's water is a resurfacing of water that has entered the aquifer from a higher elevation.

Fracting is injection to much lower depths

My house sits at the bottom of a very tall line of hills, whose springs are the beginning of so many water systems, wells, etc along this line of hills. The one well that has been able to slide through the fracking permits, because it is consider Utica shale, is high up on a hill right across from the school. :mad:

And my property is at the corner of a major turn. Quiet right now. Only noises are the brakes of the milk trucks at 5am and the school buses. Just can't wait for the tankers...

Daydream Believer
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:17 AM
I thought this might be a good time to share this article. It dispels some myths on the oil and gas boom in the North America.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2013/02/u_s_shale_oil_are_we_headed_to_a_new_era_of_oil_ab undance.html?fb_ref=sm_fb_share_chunky

CVPeg
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:20 AM
Absolutely agree with you, Louise. Syracuse was lucky in that their state reps got their city tacked on with the fracking (as I write this out - the spell checker is questioning fracking - they need to get that added... ;)) prohibitions in the same bill that excluded NYC's water supply I believe?

But while everyone here was certain we were ready for the big boom, I don't think it will be here as soon as other areas, because my location is on the very edge of the Marcellus shale. But I won't dismiss "sometime down the road". :no:

I'm frankly tired of all the battles, and really have to concentrate on my own work right now, so haven't gotten up in arms as much recently.

When I first returned here, I was involved in the fights against turbine development. The concept is lovely, but the carpet baggers who landed here offered lower rates than other areas, then turned out to not be as solvent as the lobbyists they paid portrayed them to be. These "green" companies were only in it to grab the $$$ being offered by govt funding. I used my own $$$ for another attorney to show up at meetings - on top of those who were representing immediate neighboring land owners. It was sad because the locals here were so needy they fell for their talk hook, line and sinker. Finally, after we implored the local council to take a ride up to the Tug Hill, they realized what they were in for. This little Town would never be able to afford removals if the structures had gone south. And the principals changing like winds in the night...

Fracking is extremely frightening. And I know what the oil/gas companies can do...

sk_pacer
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:33 AM
Since mineral rights are separate from water rights and actual property ownership in certain western states, it isn't even up to the property owner in some cases.

This applies here as well. You cannot even stop a seismic crew from shooting your land here, and decades ago they shot here and found deep oil, far deeper than they could drill in the 50s. That oil is now accessible, it is known as the Bakken Shale Field, and covers thousands of square miles and they have to fracture to recover that oil - shooting the well just doesn't work, they have to fracture. If they are going to fracture wells here, we haven't any way of stopping it.

FWIW, they have been fracturing wells, both gas and oil, since the 40s. maybe even earlier. With all the rat hole services here, they are doing it somewhere close by (in our Western terms of distance).

There are even protesters for CO2 sequestration and use of CO2 for some fracturing. There are stories on line about a kind of local guy that is trying to blame CO2 for his water problems but nothing conclusive beyond plain old alkali water has been shown to be there; tests were done by several labs, including the Provincial lab and a couple of independants. I do know the man, but haven't seen the suspect water up close and personal, just pictures that accompanied the news stories.

Megaladon
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:38 AM
No way!

Hulk
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:04 AM
NO NO an NO. It is proven beyond reasonable doubt that fracking is messing up the water. Non believers can just go take a match to those peoples water taps and find out. I do not believe the peoples best interests are being looked to by our representatives. Simple fact we can not live without water period end of sentence. It is our most valuable resource. We really shouldn't mess around with it. When our water dies we die.

Louise
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:09 AM
FWIW, they have been fracturing wells, both gas and oil, since the 40s. maybe even earlier. With all the rat hole services here, they are doing it somewhere close by (in our Western terms of distance).



They have been fracking vertically, not horizontally. There is a big difference both in the area covered, and in the amount of whatever noxious chemical solutions they use gets pumped down there.

Which brings up, of course, another question. What are they going to do with all of the millions of gallons of that stuff (who knows what it is because they won't tell anyone), after it's been used?

sunridge1
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:27 AM
Under my dead body only. We're battling mines here in WI. They've watered down our environmental law to affect that these guys have no accountability for what they do to/with/about the water. They can draw down as much as they want and they can throw the toxins back in as much as they want. It's being touted as a ferrous mine when it is INDEED both ferrous and sulfide. Sulfide is poison. They are building a ferrous mine with no controls for the sulfide. This is on an aquifer adjacent to Lake Superior our purest lake. I'm about driven mad.

Not to mention if this Bill passes it will open a bunch of mining areas throughout the entire state. This is NOT the state I grew up in. Our governor is in the pocket of the Koch bros. for realz.

This is scary stuff.

Louise
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:40 AM
Your governor is downright scary, sunridge1. He is turning your beautiful state into a hell-hole.

CVPeg
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:52 AM
Oh, no - one of the states I always thought sounded great to visit/stay, and had 'normal' people...

lawndart
Feb. 24, 2013, 12:05 PM
NO NO an NO. It is proven beyond reasonable doubt that fracking is messing up the water. Non believers can just go take a match to those peoples water taps and find out. I do not believe the peoples best interests are being looked to by our representatives. Simple fact we can not live without water period end of sentence. It is our most valuable resource. We really shouldn't mess around with it. When our water dies we die.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I have to comment on the above.

I know pretty well a farm family from that area. They are good, honest people who have lived there for generations. They told me that you have been able to set the local stream on fire many years ago, when they were kids. There are pockets of methane various places that pool. The family that made the dramatic video of them lighting their water from the tap on fire has been able to do that for decades. It is a very poor family, that sees this as their opportunity to cash in.

Not my opinion, just what I have heard. I am also in a fracking area, and have not heard of a single well being contaminated, but I admit I'm not privy to all that goes on locally, too busy making a living.

Our well is contaminated, but not by fracking. It was by liquid manure spread by a local dairy. They are allowed to spread 18,000 gallons per acre. If that can seep into my well from acres away, what can chemicals do? :cry:

stolen virtue
Feb. 24, 2013, 02:14 PM
I don't work in other states except California, but the application I submitted to the state had to provide a detailed assessment of why this deep well would not impact any other well or aquifer. I don't know what the application process is for other areas but I would want to have any fracking operation prove to not only the public agency but to an independent expert that 1. The geology is well documented 2. No existing wells or water sources will be impacted.

Again, the point of my earlier post is that it is not always known what the geology is at depth and that element of the application is the toughest to comply with. I have had to explain this to several geologists in our corporation as it restricts the areas for deep well and/or fracking. Information is what should be coming from both the applicant and the agencies reviewing the applications.

There have also been earthquakes created by some deep water extraction operations, most notable in Spain. Fracking in the midwest has also caused small earthquakes. It just seems that our collective knowledge does not keep up with our technologies at times, and fracking at the depths that technology allows for now is not completely understood, even by the geologists.