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View Full Version : Kentucky goes backwards - not surprising



luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 12:48 PM
http://www.wlky.com/news/local-news/wlky-investigates/WLKY-Investigates-Kentucky-s-new-gun-rights-law/-/9705322/19026844/-/item/0/-/qty00jz/-/index.html

OMG. Back to the wild, wild west.

Can I now carry my gun into the airport too?

clanter
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:06 PM
OMG. Back to the wild, wild west.

Can I now carry my gun into the airport too?

just fly frontier airlines

by the way the article is a little misleading as in the first page it gave the implication that people were just walking right into public buildings armed to the teeth.... last page it says no one has enter the building with a fire arm yet... nearly two months after it was OK

luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:20 PM
That's because this bill was passed under the radar. It just now was discovered by the media.

Our mayor is NOT happy about the bill, especially since those 'public buildings' include libraries and such. Also public transportation which has prohibited guns forever.

I haven't yet looked at the language, but they better have it written as in 'no guns on school property' rather than just schools, as a school bus is not part of a school, but is school property.

Dance_To_Oblivion
Feb. 23, 2013, 02:40 PM
I like it! Proud to live in Kentucky :)

clanter
Feb. 23, 2013, 03:00 PM
I was just wondering, what is the unarmed guard supposed to do when a person was to come into the building with intent to do harm...oh you must walk through the metal detector, and please hand me your gun as there is a law (or was a law) that you cannot bring a gun in this building.

luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 03:23 PM
I was just wondering, what is the unarmed guard supposed to do when a person was to come into the building with intent to do harm...oh you must walk through the metal detector, and please hand me your gun as there is a law (or was a law) that you cannot bring a gun in this building.

"And I (who is doing this job totally unarmed) will give you the gun back as soon as you have passed through the metal detector, because you are now allowed to carry a gun in this building. But not a knife, you need to leave the knife outside."

luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 03:33 PM
I like it! Proud to live in Kentucky :)

We'll see how you feel when you take your kids to a public park, library or swimming pool and some goof ball hick feels the need to walk around armed.

Back in the day in AZ I carried a gun in public, it was quite common in the boonies. However we have evolved - or should have - to act at least as mature and professional as we want to be viewed. Even more so in KY which has a worldwide reputation of being backwoods to start with.

Chall
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:02 PM
Yeah, but can you drink a 64 oz can of soda, smoke a cigarette in a park or consume more salt than allowed? Come visit the nanny state and become "evolved". /s

twotrudoc
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:02 PM
Our mayor is NOT happy about the bill,

Too bad so sad! He can be NOT happy all day long LOL!! When you lose politically, ya gotta suck it up there big boy.

Which city is this, KY is on my "places I would like to live eventually", I'll avoid it (please don't say Lexington, please don't say Lexington) or...help fund his political opponent in the next race if I move there :)

jr
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:09 PM
I love it when folks feel like they are the arbiters of progress. One persons evolved is another persons devolved...the arrogance.

One person, one vote. (Unless you are in Chicago or Detroit evidently). If you don't like the new law, vote them out next time.

I'd live in KY in a heartbeat.

luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:19 PM
Yeah, but can you drink a 64 oz can of soda, smoke a cigarette in a park or consume more salt than allowed? Come visit the nanny state and become "evolved". /s

LOL, smoking in public places is not allowed. Neither is smoking in restaurants.
And some KY counties are dry......:lol:

Bluey
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:24 PM
LOL, smoking in public places is not allowed. Neither is smoking in restaurants.
And some KY counties are dry......:lol:

Where I live, many counties are dry, which gets us a drunken driver problem, people then driving to and from the few where they can buy alcohol.:(

Unintended consequences and bullheadedness prevail, all keep voting dry, so nothing changes.:no:

Dance_To_Oblivion
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:37 PM
We'll see how you feel when you take your kids to a public park, library or swimming pool and some goof ball hick feels the need to walk around armed.

Back in the day in AZ I carried a gun in public, it was quite common in the boonies. However we have evolved - or should have - to act at least as mature and professional as we want to be viewed. Even more so in KY which has a worldwide reputation of being backwoods to start with.

I do not have kids but even if I did they would probably be pretty used to guns. I carry a gun most days on my farm, my husband is a federal agent and carries a gun for a living. Like I said, proud to live in Kentucky!

LauraKY
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:40 PM
Yeah, but can you drink a 64 oz can of soda, smoke a cigarette in a park or consume more salt than allowed? Come visit the nanny state and become "evolved". /s

Try buying Sudafed in KY, that's good for a chuckle or a drink in many counties.

threedogpack
Feb. 23, 2013, 05:02 PM
Do I understand this right? The Metro Hall is a government complex?

threedogpack
Feb. 23, 2013, 05:02 PM
is it a court house?

LauraKY
Feb. 23, 2013, 05:04 PM
I do not have kids but even if I did they would probably be pretty used to guns. I carry a gun most days on my farm, my husband is a federal agent and carries a gun for a living. Like I said, proud to live in Kentucky!

I looked at a farm in Harrodsburg. Why do you think it's necessary to carry a gun? Just curious.

Dance_To_Oblivion
Feb. 23, 2013, 05:47 PM
I looked at a farm in Harrodsburg. Why do you think it's necessary to carry a gun? Just curious.

I have chickens and sheep in addition to horses and there are coyotes, random dogs, chicken eating things like raccoons and possums. I am also in a very rural area (Harrodsburg address but 25 minutes out of town) and frequently alone so I don't see any reason not to carry a gun.

luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 06:02 PM
My problem us not with people carrying a gun, it's where they are carrying it.

In my neighborhood there is this guy who has a 10 x 6 foot confederate flag flying in the bed of his pickup and several shotguns hanging in a rack in the truck's back window.
I have absolutely no problem with that. Actually makes me grin seeing him. More power to him for being able to express himself.

But, there is NO reason to allow guns in the Capital Building, County Buildings, the Assessor's office and the list is long.
Don't know if this would now also apply to police stations. :confused:

IMO this is can very well create some undesirable situations and just to prove that KY is gun friendly, passing such a law is childish.

But heck, we already have to deal with Mitch McConnell who is the laughing stock of the nation.......

luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 06:06 PM
Do I understand this right? The Metro Hall is a government complex?

The Metro Hall is where the Louisville Government is housed.

c'est moi
Feb. 23, 2013, 06:36 PM
But heck, we already have to deal with Mitch McConnell who is the laughing stock of the nation.......

There is something to be said for people getting the government they deserve. So many conservatives moan endlessly about government not working, and you know what, when they get to office they sure make sure it doesn't work--what a TERRIBLE law.

clanter
Feb. 23, 2013, 07:05 PM
IMO this is can very well create some undesirable situations and just to prove that KY is gun friendly, passing such a law is childish.

.......

The bill’s sponsor, State Rep. Bob Damron, D-Nicholasville, said he’s perfectly comfortable with that.

threedogpack
Feb. 23, 2013, 07:45 PM
The Metro Hall is where the Louisville Government is housed.

so is this where criminal trials are held? And custody disputes? And divorce hearings are held if they go to a Masters Hearing?

luvmytbs
Feb. 23, 2013, 07:58 PM
so is this where criminal trials are held? And custody disputes? And divorce hearings are held if they go to a Masters Hearing?

In Louisville the court house is another building, but smaller jurisdictions may not be laid out that way.

dcm
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:45 AM
I am most certainly a gun rights advocate, but I cannot see a reason to carry in a court room be it open or concealed, unless you are an officer of the court.

I am a bit more ambivalent about the issue for other government buildings as the law in question allows open carry, but not concealed. Open carry is a lot different than concealed carry.

However I am offended by the OP's bigoted attitude towards those who choose to carry. Not everyone who carries a weapon in public, concealed or not is a 'goof ball hick'. You have nothing to fear from law abiding citizens who exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. You'd probably be surprised at the number of moms at the park with their kids who may be carrying a concealed weapon. The number of women with conceal carry permits is on the rise. My 74 year old mother has a permit, and she's a crack shot, too.

Chall
Feb. 24, 2013, 04:42 AM
Lol, the ban is on drinks (soda, water) not alcohol ( because the mayor still likes wine). Oh and styrofoam is being banned next.

up-at-5
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:45 AM
Yikes, makes me think twice about wanting to visit the State, and many others for that matter. A lot of my friends feel the same way. Too bad, we spend a LOT of money when we visit.

clanter
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:49 AM
Yikes, makes me think twice about wanting to visit the State, .

Kentucky is not a State, it is a Commonwealth....

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:53 AM
Did any of you bother to read and understand the text of the legislation? Or are you just freaking out over a poorly written article?

It's quite possible the legislation is poorly drafted - both parties are pretty good at that. But open carry and concealed carry is hardly a new concept; my state permits both (concealed carry with an easy to obtain permit) Concealed carry is gaining in popularity; especially among women. Educated women.

We're hardly the Wild West - in fact there has been no increase in crime in his Commonwealth. Folks who obey the law aren't the ones you have to worry about.

But it is possible the text of the legislation could use some work - God knows BOTH parties are guilty of some real humdingers.

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:03 AM
We'll see how you feel when you take your kids to a public park, library or swimming pool and some goof ball hick feels the need to walk around armed.

Back in the day in AZ I carried a gun in public, it was quite common in the boonies. However we have evolved - or should have - to act at least as mature and professional as we want to be viewed. Even more so in KY which has a worldwide reputation of being backwoods to start with.

I'm sorry this is just so ridiculous I have to comment on it.

Plenty of horse owners on this very BB ride in public parks - carrying a concealed weapon. Plenty of my friends carry concealed or open carry. Legally and responsibly.

The notion that cute little toddlers are in danger from such people is just ridiculous hyperbole with absolutely no basis in fact.

We have evolved? Really? Mature and professional people aren't the ones sneaking up behind women and dragging them off into the bushes.

In my state people with concealed carry permits are everywhere. You don't notice, and they're not going around brandishing their weapons. They're also not pulling them out and gunning down babies in their strollers. Good grief.

If you find the legislation problematic then point it out to your legislator and work to improve the language in the next session.

up-at-5
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:03 AM
Kentucky is not a State, it is a Commonwealth....
Oh, well forgive me, I'm Canadian and had no idea. I thought it was one of the 50 "states". :lol:

clanter
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:10 AM
I think there are four commonwealths here is the US... everyone just thinks them to be just another of the fifity-seven states

up-at-5
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:25 AM
I think there are four commonwealths here is the US... everyone just thinks them to be just another of the fifity-seven states

57? Laugh out loud, you*almost* made me go google the number of states in the US! I've not studied geography in over 30 years, thought I'd missed something there.:winkgrin:
You all need to pop on up to your neighbours to the North and see how we do things here, without people carrying guns out in public.

hosspuller
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:26 AM
Oh, well forgive me, I'm Canadian and had no idea. I thought it was one of the 50 "states". :lol:

You're forgiven ... I didn't know either.

link here http://geography.about.com/b/2006/12/09/commonwealth-vs-state.htm

There is no difference between a commonwealth and a state in the U.S. To Locke, Hobbes, and other 17th-century writers the term "commonwealth" meant an organized political community -- what we today call a "state." Officially Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Virginia, and Massachusetts are all commonwealths. When Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Virginia, and Massachusetts became part of the United States, they merely took the old form of state in their title.

Today, commonwealth also means a political unit having local autonomy but voluntarily united with the U.S. These are Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands.

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:30 AM
You all need to pop on up to your neighbours to the North and see how we do things here, without people carrying guns out in public.

I have.

Honestly, I wasn't that impressed.

up-at-5
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:34 AM
I have.

Honestly, I wasn't that impressed.

How come? I started another thread, but tell me how come, what didn't impress you? The fact that we are all walking around unarmed and unable to defend ourselves against the evil doers while out shopping?

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:45 AM
It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. I am much more fond of France - but I wouldn't want to live there either. I also wouldn't want to live in Key West or Hawaii. Sharks in the water. I don't like sharks.

You may think your country is fabulous- which is fine. Allow that denizens of other nations believe the same about theirs.

up-at-5
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:47 AM
It's a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. I am much more fond of France - but I wouldn't want to live there either. I also wouldn't want to live in Key West or Hawaii. Sharks in the water. I don't like sharks.

You may think your country is fabulous- which is fine. Allow that denizens of other nations believe the same about theirs.
Indeed true, but the gun laws of your States, or Commonwealth or what have you, do affect tourism to a certain degree, no? And you DO need the money that tourism generates.

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:56 AM
No, our gun laws do not affect tourism. You'll have to pick another boogeyman.

Like other countries tourism is more likely affected by exchange rates and other economic factors unrelated to the unnoticed passage of a law poorly reported on by an obscure newspaper.

If you're such an expert on the economy you should already know that.

up-at-5
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:12 AM
No, our gun laws do not affect tourism. You'll have to pick another boogeyman.

Like other countries tourism is more likely affected by exchange rates and other economic factors unrelated to the unnoticed passage of a law poorly reported on by an obscure newspaper.

If you're such an expert on the economy you should already know that.

No expert here! Just coffee talk. Many Canadians are fearful of traveling south due to your gun laws.
I deal with a lot of seniors who go south in the winter, and they are getting paranoid about doing so. One gent told me the other day, "don't even look sideways at them on the highway, they'll pull out their gun and blast ya'" No sh*t, that is the impression some people have up here about this.

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:22 AM
However I am offended by the OP's bigoted attitude towards those who choose to carry. Not everyone who carries a weapon in public, concealed or not is a 'goof ball hick'. You have nothing to fear from law abiding citizens who exercise their 2nd Amendment rights. You'd probably be surprised at the number of moms at the park with their kids who may be carrying a concealed weapon. The number of women with conceal carry permits is on the rise. My 74 year old mother has a permit, and she's a crack shot, too.

I was nor implying that everyone who carries is a hick. My point was that there are hicks out there who will now show off their guns in public, because it is the law of the land.
While that may be perfectly fine in the boonies (I did it in AZ) it is really not something that needs to be implemented in a Metropolitan area where people wear suits to work, carry a laptop and drive a Mercedes.

IMO any law abiding, professional individual will not be taking their Smith & Wesson into the government hall.

But now, those who may have a beef with a government entity in such a building, cannot be refused entry for carrying a weapon.

Chall
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:23 AM
For crying out loud, the highest rate of murders by gun are in the cities with the strictest gun control laws. Chicago, for example. Laws restricting gun ownership are not working.

Guilherme
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:30 AM
I'm not Canadian and unless and until some Canadian law affects me it's not my business. And that's a door that swings both ways. :)

Every state has it's local "wierdness." Visit such "progressive" places as NY, MA, or CA and you'll soon find them.

Civilians ought not to be armed in some places. Bars and courtrooms are two. There are likely others.

One of the interesting facts to come to light (on NPR no less) is that CCW permit holders, as a class, commit crimes at a rate LESS than certified police officers!

IMO open carry is bad idea in most circumstances. One good circumstance is astride. If you do this, however, make sure your horse is gun broke.

In spite of the media "full court press" and the comments of Sloe Joe the only current idea with any real credibility is an expanded background check system. This, however, has a serious potential for state abuse and the details are very important.

G.

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:40 AM
For crying out loud, the highest rate of murders by gun are in the cities with the strictest gun control laws. Chicago, for example. Laws restricting gun ownership are not working.

Nobody is asking to restrict gun ownership. Neither does this KY law make it easier to obtain a gun. That is not the point.

But please tell me why a person would need to carry a gun to pay their property taxes, get their driver's license renewed or apply for a marriage license?

clanter
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:49 AM
well I looked up Kentucky's law which it appears the newpaper never looked at

237.115 Construction of KRS 237.110 -- Prohibition by local government units of carrying concealed deadly weapons in governmental buildings -- Restriction on criminal penalties.
(1) Except as provided in KRS 527.020, nothing contained in KRS 237.110 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the right of a college, university, or any postsecondary education facility, including technical schools and community colleges, to control the possession of deadly weapons on any property owned or controlled by them or the right of a unit of state, city, county, urban-county, or charter county government to prohibit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons by licensees in that portion of a building actually owned, leased, or occupied by that unit of government.

so that dude's little metal detector is still useful, even though he is unarnmed

Open Carry is and has been legal in ten other states for nearly forever. Anomalous open carry states (in these states, open carry of a handgun is generally lawful) number fourteen

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:06 AM
But please tell me why a person would need to carry a gun to pay their property taxes, get their driver's license renewed or apply for a marriage license?

They don't - but like most people in the world I bet KY residents often drive to accomplish multiple tasks, and for one task that person might decide to carry their weapon. So they just go about their day, going to the dump or to get their vehicle inspected, maybe stop at the grocery store, get gas, or maybe stop for a pizza.

Heck, I do that all the time. I live in a rural area and do NOT hop in the car to run an errand. If I leave I do as much as I can. It's just common sense. I've even been known to leave my horse in the trailer while I dashed in to a store to get a gallon of milk - rather than drive 20 miles home, change vehicles, and drive 20 miles back. People do that when they've gone hunting with firearms, too. Go hunting in the morning, on the way home get gas or suddenly remember they need to stop at the planning office to pick up a permit, oops they're running low on gas... Why go all the way home - which may be many miles away? Oh, the horrors! I don't "need" to do any of that - I should just rely on anonymous busybodies to tell me how to conduct every aspect of my life - including how to run errands.

Most people lead very busy lives. I think what most folks appear to be concerned about is their ability to mind other people's business.

Again, if you think the law is problematic then work to change it. It's not that unusual for a poorly drafted Bill to be made into law. If you have something better, propose it.

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:11 AM
.
While that may be perfectly fine in the boonies (I did it in AZ) it is really not something that needs to be implemented in a Metropolitan area where people wear suits to work, carry a laptop and drive a Mercedes.

IMO any law abiding, professional individual will not be taking their Smith & Wesson into the government hall.

.

Wow. This is very revealing. I'm so sorry the non Mercedes owning members of the public doth offend your delicate sensibilities.

LauraKY
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:18 AM
For crying out loud, the highest rate of murders by gun are in the cities with the strictest gun control laws. Chicago, for example. Laws restricting gun ownership are not working.

I guess the Chicago border guards just aren't doing their jobs keeping the guns out, are they?

Chall
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:47 AM
I guess the Chicago border guards just aren't doing their jobs keeping the guns out, are they?
You win, the restrictive laws do work, and there are no homicides by gun in Chicago.

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:50 AM
Oh yes, Chicago and its specific political gains, like the tightest weapons ban resulting in the highest crime rate LOL.

Another Illinois Dem is headed to the slammer for being a fraudster and a crook, surprise surprise LOL!!

Great post JSwan!!

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 12:20 PM
Great post JSwan!!


I just find these types of threads reveal deep seated bigotry and prejudice masking as "progressive" ideology.

There is absolutely nothing "progressive" about maligning people who do not conform to your personal worldview - or demanding those people be prohibited from participating in society. Black, white, rich, poor, urban, rural - it does not matter. We all have an equal right to participate in society - even if we do not own a laptop or are considered "professional".

It's really appalling- that so often those who consider themselves to most liberal (not necessarily leftist) and open minded are in fact quite the opposite. Those kind of closet bigots can be found in both parties, unfortunately.

When a person says they only want professional laptop and Mercedes owning people in their environment - they're basically saying only Rich White People should apply. The ironic thing is - they don't even know their bigots. They'll throw words out like "evolved". Which is another way of saying that those who do not conform to their worldview are just monkeys swinging in the trees.

So much for concepts like diversity, tolerance, acceptance, equal rights....

I appreciate and respect that reasonable people disagree on the subject of gun ownership. I think some of their arguments have merit. The trouble is - like this thread reveals - the opposition is sometimes less about gun ownership and more about something..... else.

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 12:34 PM
I think we can say both sides of the political ideologies have their fair share of bigots.

I do need to say that while I disagree with the OP, and I think that the insights here are valuable, I really don't want to condemn anyone. We all have certain thoughts and behaviors that may not be the most positive, education and introspection will usually go a long way in changing :)

Besides, my neon green Ford Fiesta is wayyy more 'murican than a Mercedes-Benz any day!

dklime
Feb. 24, 2013, 12:58 PM
Yeah for Kentucky! What a way to tell the Feds they are wrong in trying to "amend" the 2nd Amendment or any others for that matter. It's amazing how so many can judge Kentucky when they are more than likely not from there or aren't native Kentuckians. I don't believe that the state is full of "goof ball hicks" who need to need to be armed, nor do I side with the comment about someone not wanting to visit the state over that law. I say to them, if you don't care for their laws, stay away. No one says you have to go there so, by the same token, your Constitutional right doesn't force you to be armed or live there! I'm a Montana resident and I think it's so idiotic for others telling us how we are to run our state or that we should live by ideals from other "crime and gun free" areas such as New York, California, Illionis (Chicago), Atlanta, New Orleans and the like! Kentucky, you rock! I hope my state will follow suit before long. Our local sheriff's associations have already publicly stated they will not enforce any federal laws which will violate our constitutional rights. God bless America!

threedogpack
Feb. 24, 2013, 12:59 PM
well I looked up Kentucky's law which it appears the newpaper never looked at

237.115 Construction of KRS 237.110 -- Prohibition by local government units of carrying concealed deadly weapons in governmental buildings -- Restriction on criminal penalties.
(1) Except as provided in KRS 527.020, nothing contained in KRS 237.110 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the right of a college, university, or any postsecondary education facility, including technical schools and community colleges, to control the possession of deadly weapons on any property owned or controlled by them or the right of a unit of state, city, county, urban-county, or charter county government to prohibit the carrying of concealed deadly weapons by licensees in that portion of a building actually owned, leased, or occupied by that unit of government.

so that dude's little metal detector is still useful, even though he is unarnmed

Open Carry is and has been legal in ten other states for nearly forever. Anomalous open carry states (in these states, open carry of a handgun is generally lawful) number fourteen

red mine.

is this the same law? It's for concealed carry not open.

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:09 PM
Wow. This is very revealing. I'm so sorry the non Mercedes owning members of the public doth offend your delicate sensibilities.

LOL, I don't drive a Mercedes but a pickup truck with hay hanging off its bed. And I live in a little hick area with plenty of rednecks. I chose to move to this particular "town with no rules" where I can ride my horses through the neighborhood and take them though the drive thru at Dairy Queen if I want a soda.

I have no problem with people carrying a gun at my gas station or in my grocery store.

However, when I go downtown - the business district - I appreciate the professional flair and I do dress up to go to my job because that is required by my employer.
I am not allowed to smoke on their property nor am I allowed to carry a gun.

Obviously no-one in the past however many years had a problem with NOT being allowed to carry a weapon into public buildings, the libraries etc. So why waste tax payer's money and waste time on such a non-issue law.
We definitely have more pressing issues that need to be addressed in Kentucky.

And yes, thank you, last I checked I am allowed to have my own opinion, especially when it comes to where I live and work.

lilitiger2
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:09 PM
Well seeing as many consider Montana "Montucky" I bet we will be following suit shortly. :) I am a (non Mercedes driving, non laptop carrying, non suit wearing) professional who strongly supports gun rights but I hate how divisive the issue is.

happymom
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:22 PM
ilitiger2
Well seeing as many consider Montana "Montucky" I bet we will be following suit shortly. I am a (non Mercedes driving, non laptop carrying, non suit wearing) professional who strongly supports gun rights but I hate how divisive the issue is.

If it's not gun rights, it's something else. The country seems hopelessly divided by a "I'm right and you're just stupid"' philosophy.


dklime
God bless America!

I see little hope for future success here. If God blessed America, man and woman screwed it up.

CHSatwork
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:28 PM
We'll see how you feel when you take your kids to a public park, library or swimming pool and some goof ball hick feels the need to walk around armed.

Back in the day in AZ I carried a gun in public, it was quite common in the boonies. However we have evolved - or should have - to act at least as mature and professional as we want to be viewed. Even more so in KY which has a worldwide reputation of being backwoods to start with.
Wow, really? LMAO We all have an arsenal in our trucks here and one in our waist band. LOL Nobody shoots anybody.

threedogpack
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:30 PM
If it's not gun rights, it's something else. The country seems hopelessly divided by a "I'm right and you're just stupid"' philosophy.

not all of us. I'm ambiguous about gun control. I completely understand and support it sometimes but at other times not so much. Whatever we are doing doesn't seem to be working so well. I am not ambiguous about banning guns. First that is unworkable and second, people aren't just going to hand over their weapons.

my question still stands, is the concealed permit law the same one as the open carry.

2bayboys
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:43 PM
We'll see how you feel when you take your kids to a public park, library or swimming pool and some goof ball hick feels the need to walk around armed.

Back in the day in AZ I carried a gun in public, it was quite common in the boonies. However we have evolved - or should have - to act at least as mature and professional as we want to be viewed. Even more so in KY which has a worldwide reputation of being backwoods to start with.

Funny you should ask.....a friend and I were walking recently on a very popular paved trail through our city with her baby in a stroller, and came upon a man walking the other direction who was open carrying. We stopped to chat with him and he was happy to explain why he was armed and we also talked about a bunch of other things.

We didn't feel threatened at all, and he was certainly no hick, he's an attorney who was educated at a highly regarded law school.

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:44 PM
Wow, really? LMAO We all have an arsenal in our trucks here and one in our waist band. LOL Nobody shoots anybody.

And again, that was not my point.

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 01:47 PM
and came upon a man walking the other direction who was open carrying. We stopped to chat with him and he was happy to explain why he was armed .

Would you mind sharing what his reason was to open carry?

2bayboys
Feb. 24, 2013, 02:05 PM
Would you mind sharing what his reason was to open carry?

Sure. He said he always carries concealed, except in court, where guns are not allowed (for safety reasons, as there is a rather high percentage of "bad guys" present in the courtroom). On this particular pathway, highly popular for joggers and families with kids, etc, there have been instances of criminal activity, mostly indecent exposure, drunk homeless guys harassing people, and one robbery. So the lawyer decided that he would carry openly on his walk to send a message to the bad guys who might be trolling around, that he would not be a victim nor would he tolerate any victimization of others. He said it also was an easy way to meet and talk to people, as a lot of folks stopped and asked him about his views when they noticed him carrying. He was intelligent, sensible, and not at all like a pushy activist, and he was not offended when my friend asked him some hardball questions.

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 02:07 PM
Awesome.

BasqueMom
Feb. 24, 2013, 02:33 PM
Our closest outdoor range draws the professional types during the week....attorney, executive types in button down shirts and chinos with the parking lot full of BMW's, etc. Weekends the parking lot is full of pickemups and more folks wearing jeans and t-shirts. More families on the weekends and higher percentage of women.

MMacallister
Feb. 24, 2013, 02:44 PM
While that may be perfectly fine in the boonies (I did it in AZ) it is really not something that needs to be implemented in a Metropolitan area where people wear suits to work, carry a laptop and drive a Mercedes.


Because all crime happens in the boonies, and never in cities?

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 03:41 PM
Sure. He said he always carries concealed, except in court, where guns are not allowed (for safety reasons, as there is a rather high percentage of "bad guys" present in the courtroom). On this particular pathway, highly popular for joggers and families with kids, etc, there have been instances of criminal activity, mostly indecent exposure, drunk homeless guys harassing people, and one robbery. So the lawyer decided that he would carry openly on his walk to send a message to the bad guys who might be trolling around, that he would not be a victim nor would he tolerate any victimization of others. He said it also was an easy way to meet and talk to people, as a lot of folks stopped and asked him about his views when they noticed him carrying. He was intelligent, sensible, and not at all like a pushy activist, and he was not offended when my friend asked him some hardball questions.

Perfect. That's what I was looking for. An appropriate scenario as to why carry open.

Now, why would that be appropriate for your library, your assessor's office,
your public swimming pool our your county's clerk office? Who on those premises would one feel the need to send a message to?

ezduzit
Feb. 24, 2013, 04:49 PM
According to OP: Kentucky = backwards = not surprising. A little bit elitist maybe? Offensive; certainly.

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 05:24 PM
LOL. I chose to move to Kentucky of all places. Because of the horses and because people in general are vey laid back, friendly, don't get offended easily and just love living.

I could do without some of the legislators and the crazy laws they are crafting.

Certainly I do my part to help get some of the outdated animal welfare laws to the 21st century; that goal alone is a reason NOT to move. ;)

LauraKY
Feb. 24, 2013, 05:59 PM
According to OP: Kentucky = backwards = not surprising. A little bit elitist maybe? Offensive; certainly.

I live here. It is backwards, pure fact, I'm not being an elitist. Even the long time residents laugh and say that Kentucky is 20 years behind the times. It is.

ezduzit
Feb. 24, 2013, 06:13 PM
I find it offensive because it's a different culture and that should not be made fun of even if you live there. One group making fun of and berating another just because they're *different* is called bullying. Just because you say "and some of them are my best friends" doesn't change that. imho

Calamber
Feb. 24, 2013, 06:29 PM
Oh, well forgive me, I'm Canadian and had no idea. I thought it was one of the 50 "states". :lol:

We will forgive you for being Canadian as soon as we ourselves get rid of the influence, financially and culturally of the British Empire. Just so you do not get too carried away by looking up the difference between a "Commonwealth State", please remember that your government (Federally) is a Commonwealth and that your parliament can be dissolved by the Queen over the will of the people.

The whole discussions about guns really proves how stupid overall people have become, the guns do not pick themselves up off the shelf and shoot, there is usually a demented human being at the end of it. If you take the guns away from the people themselves, only the criminals and the demented will get hold of them, unless you believe the criminals and the insane are going to check in with the local constabulary and report in so that they can get a background check. The whole discussion should be, why are we as a nation going so insane, and what can we do about that, and what are we doing about the culture of violence of Hollywood and the video games that are probably the next biggest cause of the actual shootings than any one single thing. Sanity begets sanity, we have to change the subject so that we can prove that we know from whence this problem began. One little factoid is that the state of Israel has more guns per capita than any other population of human beings on the planet, they do not have this level of crime however. Whazzup with that do you think?

Oh, and by the way, thank you Kentucky for being one of the eight states thus far who have passed a memorial resolution to move the United States Congress to reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act, HR 129. That's my kind of backward, backward to the American Revolution! YAY!

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 06:33 PM
The only bullying is done by our legislators.

We grow tobacco, but yet are not allowed to smoke in public.
We make bourbon, but yet certain counties are not allowed to sell it.
Mitch McConnell voted against equal pay for women in they same job as men.
Just recently he filibustered his own bill. :lol:
There are individuals who still have their KKK outfits in the closet, just in case (and they truly believe that time will come).

Yeah, some of the culture is "different" alright......:D

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 06:37 PM
Great post Calamber!

ezduzit
Feb. 24, 2013, 06:58 PM
Yes, very good Calamber!

LexInVA
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:07 PM
One little factoid is that the state of Israel has more guns per capita than any other population of human beings on the planet, they do not have this level of crime however. Whazzup with that do you think?

According to Israeli law, only the police, military, and those civilians who meet certain criteria based on need for protection due to occupation or location or being a high-ranking officer discharged from the military in good standing are allowed to possess firearms and they actually have a low gun per capita rate for the population as most do not qualify for owning a firearm, even if they served in the armed forces. Since Israel has security guards, police, and heavily armed soldiers all over the place, it's pretty difficult to commit crimes, hence a low crime rate.

2bayboys
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:08 PM
Perfect. That's what I was looking for. An appropriate scenario as to why carry open.

Now, why would that be appropriate for your library, your assessor's office,
your public swimming pool our your county's clerk office? Who on those premises would one feel the need to send a message to?

There is no "appropriate". It's either legal or not legal. I didn't know there was a Miss Manners for the exercise of one's rights.

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:22 PM
Not exactly, Lex :) And I agree with Israels way of doing things

"Israel’s gun control laws are the opposite (http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=296480) of America’s, say Israeli officials. “Only those who have a license can bear arms and not everyone can get a license,” the head of the firearms licensing department told the Jerusalem Post. To qualify for a license, Israelis must at least age 21, pass a physical and psychological examination, undergo a background check and then qualify at a licensed shooting range. Gun owners are retested every three years, they get a one-time supply of 50 bullets when they order their weapon, and as of next year, they must keep their gun in a safe."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2012/12/20/israel-looks-at-tougher-gun-control-laws/

The reason for a lower crime rate is weapons are very, very evident. Israel is *always* at war and in close proximity to being attacked at all times. Ya really think Rapist Ron is going to attack some female who may very well be armed and extremely handy with her weapon? Or Murdering Mike, like he is going to go on a shooting rampage when there are 10 well armed soldiers in the area?

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:22 PM
Ok, so this is all about you? Wow. I thought it was about public policy - and in your case about rich white people being comfortable among their own kind (though you'd be shocked by how many professional Mercedes driving laptop owners also own firearms)

I doubt this was the only piece of legislation before your assembly this session. So it's not as if "they" wasted their time on this instead of more pressing matters. Chances are your legislature considered hundreds, if not thousands, of bills. Almost all of which died in committee.

This one didn't and made its way through the legislative process - not "under the radar". It wasn't some obscure rider attached to a spending bill.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You seem more concerned about protecting your own prejudices and worldview. The law affects the entire state - by your own admission it is largely rural. Though I explained how a person could end up in a gov't facility while possessing a firearm (lawfully) - you ignored that and asked the question again.

Basically you've gotten yourself into a complete snit over legislation you never read, much less understand, you accidentally revealed your own pretty darn entrenched prejudices of other human beings, (which I personally found appalling) and are trying to back pedal.

Again, if you believe this legislation is bad public policy work with your legislator on something better. But you might not want to mention the Mercedes/laptop/professionals only thing.



LOL, I don't drive a Mercedes but a pickup truck with hay hanging off its bed. And I live in a little hick area with plenty of rednecks. I chose to move to this particular "town with no rules" where I can ride my horses through the neighborhood and take them though the drive thru at Dairy Queen if I want a soda.

I have no problem with people carrying a gun at my gas station or in my grocery store.

However, when I go downtown - the business district - I appreciate the professional flair and I do dress up to go to my job because that is required by my employer.
I am not allowed to smoke on their property nor am I allowed to carry a gun.

Obviously no-one in the past however many years had a problem with NOT being allowed to carry a weapon into public buildings, the libraries etc. So why waste tax payer's money and waste time on such a non-issue law.
We definitely have more pressing issues that need to be addressed in Kentucky.

And yes, thank you, last I checked I am allowed to have my own opinion, especially when it comes to where I live and work.

JSwan
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:25 PM
it's pretty difficult to commit crimes, hence a low crime rate.

And yet, they have a pretty high terrorism rate.

LexInVA
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:26 PM
Not exactly, Lex :) And I agree with Israels way of doing things

"Israel’s gun control laws are the opposite (http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=296480) of America’s, say Israeli officials. “Only those who have a license can bear arms and not everyone can get a license,” the head of the firearms licensing department told the Jerusalem Post. To qualify for a license, Israelis must at least age 21, pass a physical and psychological examination, undergo a background check and then qualify at a licensed shooting range. Gun owners are retested every three years, they get a one-time supply of 50 bullets when they order their weapon, and as of next year, they must keep their gun in a safe."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpeck/2012/12/20/israel-looks-at-tougher-gun-control-laws/

The reason for a lower crime rate is weapons are very, very evident. Israel is *always* at war and in close proximity to being attacked at all times. Ya really think Rapist Ron is going to attack some female who may very well be armed and extremely handy with her weapon? Or Murdering Mike, like he is going to go on a shooting rampage when there are 10 well armed soldiers in the area?

The Jpost article you linked to said exactly what I said, so how am I incorrect?

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:30 PM
Yes, but yours had a certain tone that made it sound like the criteria were much harder than what it is :)

Just my perception and I aim to clarify information.

LexInVA
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:38 PM
Yes, but yours had a certain tone that made it sound like the criteria were much harder than what it is :)

Just my perception and I aim to clarify information.

"Gun licenses are only given out to those who have a reason because they work in security or law enforcement, or those who live in settlements where the state has an interest in them being armed. Anyone who fits the requirements, is over age 21 and an Israeli resident for more than three years, must go through a mental and physical health exam, Amit said, then pass shooting exams and courses at a licensed gun range, as well as background checks by the Public Security Ministry."

"Amit said that since 1996, not long after the Rabin assassination, there has been a continuous reduction in the amount of weapons in public hands due larger to stricter regulations. He estimated there are about 170,000 privately-owned firearms in Israel, or enough for around one out of every 50 Israelis, far less per capita than the US, where there are an estimated more than 300 million privately owned guns for a population of a little more than 300 million."

You'd call that criteria easy?

MistyBlue
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:47 PM
Now, why would that be appropriate for your library, your assessor's office,
your public swimming pool our your county's clerk office? Who on those premises would one feel the need to send a message to?


Whoever wants to steal your laptop and Mercedes? :winkgrin:

I'd want to open carry in a city before I'd want to open carry in the boondocks of AZ. Not a lot of crime from cacti and scorpions.

As a matter of fact, it's illegal to shoot those great big cacti, even if they already look like they're doing the "Hands in the air and don't move!" thing. :cool:

I may be wrong, but it seems the issues may be the perception of who you think *should* be carrying a firearm at all. That "country folk" are fine and expected to carry them but metrosexuals, urbanites, dinks, yuppies, city slickers, suits and CEOs should stick to the stereotype of professional people shouldn't look like hicks and only hicks carry guns.

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:54 PM
"To qualify for a license, Israelis must at least age 21, pass a physical and psychological examination, undergo a background check and then qualify at a licensed shooting range. Gun owners are retested every three years, they get a one-time supply of 50 bullets when they order their weapon, and as of next year, they must keep their gun in a safe."

Seems fair to me.

dklime
Feb. 24, 2013, 07:57 PM
Here's a new thought toward the gun issue.........http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/02/5209-african-americans-gun-advocates-compare-gun-control-to-segregation-laws/

LexInVA
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:38 PM
"To qualify for a license, Israelis must at least age 21, pass a physical and psychological examination, undergo a background check and then qualify at a licensed shooting range. Gun owners are retested every three years, they get a one-time supply of 50 bullets when they order their weapon, and as of next year, they must keep their gun in a safe."

Seems fair to me.

You missed the boat on that one because the statement left out the first and foremost requirement for legal civilian firearm ownership in Israel, which is that you must demonstrate, to the state, a clear need or reason to own a firearm due to your occupation or place of residence in a dangerous area or you must meet certain military service requirements in addition to the subsequent required license qualifications. If you cannot meet that first requirement, you cannot apply for a firearms license, regardless of your meeting the qualifications.

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 08:45 PM
I appreciate your viewpoint Lex :)

Now, here are the actual Israeli regs ;)

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/israel-firearms.htm

The Israel Dept. of the Interior makes notification to the general public the requirements necessary for the obtaining of a permit to possess a firearm:
1. Applicant must be a permanent resident of Israel for 3 consecutive years prior to making application for a firearms permit.
2. Applicant must be 21 years of age.
3. The permit request must be for personal use, not to engage in the business of firearms sales.
http://jpfo.org/images02/criterias1-400.jpg (http://jpfo.org/images02/criterias1.jpg)
4. Applicant must fall into one of the following categories:
a. Part-time reservist (volunteer) for 3 years- may own 1 handgun
b. Such a reservist (volunteer) is a member of a gun club - may own 1 rifle
c. Professional, licensed public transportation driver, transporting a minimum of 5 passengers - may own 1 handgun
d. Licensed animal control officer- may own 2 hunting rifles, *not* full automatic weapons, or semi-automatic weapons with a limited capacity magazine.
e. Full-time dealer of jewelry or large sums of cash or valuables - may own 1 handgun

West Bank and Gaza Strip Settlers:
1. A resident in a militarily strategic buffer zone, essential to the security of the State of Israel - may own 1 handgun
2. A business owner in these geographic areas - may own 1 handgun

Veterans:
1. Veterans of the Regular Army honorably discharged with the rank of non-commissioned officer, and veterans of the Reserve Army with the rank of regimental commander- may own 1 handgun
2. Retired law enforcement officers with the rank of sergeant - may own 1 handgun
3. Retired prison guards with the rank of squadron commander- may own 1 handgun

Individuals:
Upon presenting documentation that one is about to receive a souvenir, a prize, an inheritance, or an award of appreciation from the Israel military."

And when you consider that being in the military is compulsory with very few exceptions for the entire Israeli population, you can plainly see that there are not a whole lot who do not qualify in some way to own a hand gun LOL!!

http://www.mahal-idf-volunteers.org/information/background/content.htm#who

LexInVA
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:07 PM
The Jewish Gun Group information you linked to is incorrect and over a decade old and the Forbes article you linked was poorly written as it only listed the license requirements and not the license qualifications, which are what we are talking about here. Read up on the current laws. Under current laws, unless you meet the prior service requirement as a former officer in good standing above a certain ranking, you MUST have a need to own a firearm and demonstrate that to the government before you can apply for a firearms license. Tons of articles and studies over the past few years about Israeli gun laws state exactly that including the Jpost article that you linked to earlier.

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:12 PM
Go tell the author of the piece he writes poorly, it is of no consequence to me whether or not they meet your standards of writing :lol:

Here ya go, from December 17, 2012, 10:35 am (that is a few months ago)-->

To receive a gun license, one technically needs to meet two sets of criteria. First, the basics: A gun owner must be a citizen or a permanent resident and speak some Hebrew. The person can’t be a minor and can’t have any physical or mental problems hindering him from operating a firearm. Second, one must show cause to carry a weapon, a privilege limited on paper to about a dozen categories of people whose work conditions are perilous enough to justify carrying a firearm.
These are the strict gun laws that many commentators have been citing as the reason the Jewish state has no Newtowns or Columbines. But take a closer look, and that second set becomes quite porous: Security guards, obviously, are permitted their guns, but so are men and women who work in the diamond industry, or who handle valuable goods or large sums of cash. Anyone who lives or works in an “entitled residency”—code for a high-risk area, meaning the settlements—is permitted a weapon, no questions asked. Retired army officers can easily obtain a license, as can anyone who has inherited a gun from a friend or a relative. And sportsmen can easily get shotgun permits if they claim that they wish to use it to hunt pheasant or boar.
The upshot: Anyone can come up with an excuse to legally own a gun. I have personally witnessed more than one friend apply under false premises, claiming that their work required that they travel to settlements and other high-risk areas, and walk out, a short while later, with pistols much like the ones used in Aurora or Columbine. Assault rifles, admittedly, are harder to come by in Israel. If you are not a soldier or a reservist or don’t have one in your family—again, nearly the entire population—the only way to obtain semiautomatics is if you reside, or claim to reside, in a settlement.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/119408/why-israel-has-no-newtowns

LexInVA
Feb. 24, 2013, 09:27 PM
We were talking about the ownership laws of Israel vs the US and not how Israeli's fudge the paperwork to get guns in violation of those laws. :mad:

luvmytbs
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:08 PM
I may be wrong, but it seems the issues may be the perception of who you think *should* be carrying a firearm at all. That "country folk" are fine and expected to carry them but metrosexuals, urbanites, dinks, yuppies, city slickers, suits and CEOs should stick to the stereotype of professional people shouldn't look like hicks and only hicks carry guns.

In typical COTH fashion, some are so 'passionate' about their position that they completely fire over the top of the point. no pun intended...

This is not about WHO carries a gun openly, but about where......
After decades of no complaints, no incidents to necessitate open carry in public buildings (BTW this includes the Louisville Zoo) someone decides to draft this unnecessary legislation.

I am pretty certain the goal was to send a message to the WH, since the NRA was right there helping to draft this bill.

IMO it's childish and just another way of driving both sides apart.
Most everyone living here is shaking their heads and rolling their eyes.
But heck, we are used to it. McConnell is already running negative ads against Ashley Judd even though she hasn't said a peep about whether she is even considering running against him in 2014.

With that, "I am sticking to my guns" and going to bed, so tomorrow I will look halfway presentable in the suits and laptop environment I work in.
And then maybe I should ask my employer if I can carry my gun in the office, because, because, because......(have to work on a legit reason)........
:lol:

twotrudoc
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:30 PM
LOL!! Well, Lex, the reality of gun control laws in either country supports the supposition that gun control is ineffective. And, whether you believe the actual Israeli laws or not is your business. We are all entitled to our opinions but our opinions are not all facts, KWIM? I'm with the OP and sticking to my guns :lol:

Have a good night!

dcm
Feb. 24, 2013, 10:48 PM
Yikes, makes me think twice about wanting to visit the State, and many others for that matter. A lot of my friends feel the same way. Too bad, we spend a LOT of money when we visit.

Oh gosh. I'm sure us pro-2nd Amendment states miss your "LOT" of tourist money. Take a closer look at the states with less gun control and you will see, on a whole, much stronger economies. So go ahead and spend your "LOT" of money in, say, Chicago. They are evolved and have no guns. The law forbids them.

luvmytbs, while you and your friends have not complained about restrictions on open carry, there are millions of other citizens of your state. Maybe they were complaining and your low quality local reporting failed to write that story up. You don't like the law? This is America. Work to change it. In Texas, concealed handguns are permitted in government buildings unless there is a courtroom located in the building, or the building is a school. Open carry is not permitted here. I don't know that I've heard of any gun violence occurring at the DMV even though they are one of the most maddening of government offices.

And from your comments about McConnell, I'd gather you are Democrat. It seems these days that Democrats like legislating behavior. Maybe ya'll can pass a law that will make hick behavior illegal. Then everybody in Kentucky can stop carrying weapons in public, drive a Mercedes, and carry a laptop to work in urban, uptown offices. After all, if they are not like you, or live like you, or think like you, or have different opinions than you, they are not evolved. Your superior knowledge of how others should live will be greatly appreciated. It's up to you and your fellow Democrats to save Kentucky from the horrors of hickdom.