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View Full Version : Spin-off from Baby Crying: We always fight... where do we go wrong?



mvp
Feb. 21, 2013, 04:42 PM
Friends, I can think of a kid or dog thread that doesn't not go off the tracks.

Where does it start and how to prevent that?

I get the impression that it starts with something posted that Actually Expresses an attitude of entitlement, or is presumed to.

Why do people get all "It's my God-given right to X" with the kid and dog issues? You wouldn't do that over other stuff.

Can anyone explain how otherwise rational and civilized people go rabid over kids, dogs (and some of 'em, gun ownership)?

LittleblackMorgan
Feb. 21, 2013, 04:47 PM
For me, its when someone with no kids offers unsolicited advice, or even solicited. Like a "suck it up" attitude. I have NOTHING against people with no kids. At all. In my thread about motherhood, I snapped about someone not having kids. It wasnt personal, its just that people who haven't done it don't know how to do it. Time crunches, I mean. before I had my son, I never offered any thoughts to parents because I didn't feel it was my place.

The thing with kids I noticed, is that everyone thinks their way is the only way (like horses!). They get defensive.

MyGiantPony
Feb. 21, 2013, 04:50 PM
I think one part of it is that horse people tend to be pretty strong willed. It's part of our make up. So when there is a side to be taken, we are going to strongly express our opinion and think we are right.

Part of it is, of course, it's hard to express emotion in a brief thread posting, and equally difficult to not offend someone...some folks look out for opportunities to be offended. :winkgrin:

And in my case, I've been a grumpy cow for about the last 6 months and been kind of snarky. But now that DS has moved out, my outlook is much sunnier. :D:lol:

mvp
Feb. 21, 2013, 05:12 PM
I'm torn because, on one hand, I *know* that plenty of people put up with me and my parents while I was a Young Tyrant.

I'd like to extend the same courtesy to the next generation. But somehow I get b!tchy when someone demands that rather than asks for it, or waits for me to offer.

And I may be childless, but the parent of a young dude with brand new teeth said I had guessed right as his pretty innocent motivations when he was on a biting spree. So it doesn't take reproduction to get it right, even with the criminal biting types.

vacation1
Feb. 22, 2013, 08:10 PM
The problem is that there's always some faction lacking in any imagination or even a basic level of empathy to think it over from the other POV. Whether it's the person with the kid who wants everyone acknowledge that having a child Makes You A Different Person And Childless People Can Never Understand, or it's childless person who expects some sort of impossible outcome - like, say, teaching a toddler to never touch the family dog/cat/hamster - and refuses to believe that this is developmentally just Not Going To Happen because they're damn sure THEY never did anything stupid around the family dog when they were toddlers.

Also, reading comprehension. Some people can't read for shit.

mvp
Feb. 22, 2013, 08:18 PM
^^^

I think you are right. The descent into trainwreck over there included "Wow. Y'all must not like babies."

Many parents in their more honest moments will tell you that while they'd jump in front of a train for their kids, they don't care about others' kids or even like 'em.

As pissed off at a poster as one may be, folks ought to draw the line at calling them baby haters.

nhwr
Feb. 22, 2013, 08:25 PM
I think a lot of time people get pre-occupied with what "should" happen rather than what is likely to happen. Waste of time, IMO.

In the crying baby situation, no parent, not even the most clueless, wants their child to be a problem for anyone. But babies cry and sometimes there is not a lot you can do about it. There are a lot of things that could possibly happen to solve the problem but most of them are unlikely. When I say the person can tolerate it or move, that is just a statement of reality (or my perception of it, lol), rather than a suggestion to just suck it up.

And also I completely agree about the reading comprehension thing ;)

cowboymom
Feb. 22, 2013, 08:55 PM
People project-they read a thread based on the topic b/c they relate to it somehow. And they bring all their baggage and experience and hold forth and I really think most people on the internet post to hear themselves talk. And then they sit back to see what effect they had and if it's not the intended result they try, try again! LOL

Superminion
Feb. 22, 2013, 09:47 PM
It's also really hard to understand the tone of the poster over a reply, like text messaging or e-mails, sometimes things get misinterpreted and then everybody gets all offended and wham bam thank you ma'am... trainwreck.

It is really, really hard to put yourself in a mother's shoes if you haven't been there. Babysitting doesn't count (and I thought that it did before I had my first). There is nothing more draining than the sleep deprivation, frustration, worry, and constant neediness that goes along with a small child...when they cry sometimes there really is nothing that you can do. I try not to get offended when people get angry, because DD was my choice and she is my responsibility. I don't want to hear it either! However, when people get rude or snarky or mean about it, that's when I go into Momma-mode.

It's not exactly like a dog in the wrong situation either, I don't think that I could post the kiddo on Craigslist or find her a new family. It really is something that non-parents don't understand, and I don't expect them too.

mvp
Feb. 22, 2013, 10:22 PM
^^^

Please don't argue that the difference between being a mother, complete with carte blanche to go off on folks, is that those who would compare kids to pets can put their animals on Craigslist if they wish and therefore have an "out" that the tired parent does not.

I can't morally dump an animal I own on Craigslist. And plenty of parents abandon their children, some killing them. So I fail to see your basis for monopolizing the moral high ground. Find another reason, please.

nhwr
Feb. 22, 2013, 10:28 PM
There certainly are many differences between parenthood and pet ownership, individual feelings notwithstanding. Those issues are simply not equivalent and can't be compared on a reasonable basis.

MistyBlue
Feb. 22, 2013, 10:48 PM
I think you are right. The descent into trainwreck over there included "Wow. Y'all must not like babies."

Many parents in their more honest moments will tell you that while they'd jump in front of a train for their kids, they don't care about others' kids or even like 'em.

As pissed off at a poster as one may be, folks ought to draw the line at calling them baby haters.


A quick search on Off Topic forum with "children" and "kids" in the thread titles brings up a host of "dislikes them" threads. Also a bunch of "childless" threads that, if opened, reveal handfuls of posters expressing their "strong dislike" of babies, small children, etc.

So when others reply "We get it, you don't like kids"...often that's because they can be quoted on past threads saying, "I really don't like any kids!" :winkgrin:

It's not a God-given right for others to accept everyone's children. But it is a right for people to reproduce. Every person on this BB was a baby and a child at one time...at least I'm assuming so. ;) All y'all were probably whiny, cry-babies at some point too. :yes:

As was stated, reading for comprehension sucks on Off Topic forums because people do react with their own slant on things and rarely to the actual subject matter of a thread. A crying baby for 15-30 minutes quickly went right to a "screaming, shrieking baby all the time with uncaring parents who suck because they had a cry-baby and don't leave the building every time it screams for hours!"

Children are a fact of life and a pretty common and normal one. It's fine to not be a fan of them, no big deal. But if I really disliked dogs, I'm not going to rent or buy in a place that allows dogs and then complain when a dog barks to go outside at daybreak but isn't yapping 24/7. If I do decide that I really like/want that particular residence despite it's allowing dogs, I'm not going to bother the neighbors with dogs acting normally (and not excessively, unrelenting noisy all night). That would me ME the "God given right to not have to deal with your perfectly legal, normal acting dog!" It doesn't make the morning barker-owner the God Given Right person. ;)

cowboymom
Feb. 23, 2013, 11:41 AM
^^^

Please don't argue that the difference between being a mother, complete with carte blanche to go off on folks, is that those who would compare kids to pets can put their animals on Craigslist if they wish and therefore have an "out" that the tired parent does not.

I can't morally dump an animal I own on Craigslist. And plenty of parents abandon their children, some killing them. So I fail to see your basis for monopolizing the moral high ground. Find another reason, please.

And THAT would be where we go wrong. Case closed!

LauraKY
Feb. 23, 2013, 12:46 PM
When someone compares babies to dogs...invariably others will take offense regardless of the situation.

cowboymom
Feb. 23, 2013, 12:56 PM
Trying not to offend on the internet is like a rodeo in a mine field. The better approach is to try not to be offended at every turn.

mvp
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:09 PM
A quick search on Off Topic forum with "children" and "kids" in the thread titles brings up a host of "dislikes them" threads. Also a bunch of "childless" threads that, if opened, reveal handfuls of posters expressing their "strong dislike" of babies, small children, etc.

So when others reply "We get it, you don't like kids"...often that's because they can be quoted on past threads saying, "I really don't like any kids!" :winkgrin:

IIRC, however, someone did some cocktail napkin math and found that in that thread, the pro-kid/parent opinions outnumbered the baby-haters 8:1.

Look, if you have kids you made a choice that (apparently) commits you to a baby-lover position. If you *don't* have kids, you aren't committed one way or another. But if you are the child-ed baby-lover and you choose also to look for signs that others don't like your kid and therefore your choice, well.... you are taking part in your own suffering or martyrdom.

Things would work better if everyone were laid back like my mom. She thinks its normal to adore your own kids and have a range of feelings about others. But she doesn't ask people do give her credit for her decision to have 'em. A big, still-rabid fan of legalized abortion, she just.doesn't.care what others think about any woman's decisions to have kids or not.

cowboymom
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:23 PM
I think by and large in just reading the forum I see more non-kid posts than pro, not posts that are intentionally ABOUT kids, just offhand remarks. But I don't think the parents come here to talk about their kids, I know I don't. And I understand the folks that don't have kids or aren't drawn to kids so I don't get offended when I read that though sometimes the "devil spawn" or generalized anti-kid remarks are a little close to or over the line. I get more fired up about horse topics than kid topics here. :)

Incantation
Feb. 23, 2013, 01:23 PM
But if I really disliked dogs, I'm not going to rent or buy in a place that allows dogs and then complain when a dog barks to go outside at daybreak but isn't yapping 24/7. If I do decide that I really like/want that particular residence despite it's allowing dogs, I'm not going to bother the neighbors with dogs acting normally (and not excessively, unrelenting noisy all night).

Just wondering if there are actually states that allow landlords to discriminate against people with kids, and offer adult only housing????

The only instances in my state where that would be allowed is if the housing is for seniors only, or if it is an owner occupied building.

MistyBlue
Feb. 23, 2013, 04:37 PM
Just wondering if there are actually states that allow landlords to discriminate against people with kids, and offer adult only housing????


Probably varies state to state but if you have all 1 bedroom units, you can limit to single occupancy AFAIK.



IIRC, however, someone did some cocktail napkin math and found that in that thread, the pro-kid/parent opinions outnumbered the baby-haters 8:1.

Look, if you have kids you made a choice that (apparently) commits you to a baby-lover position. If you *don't* have kids, you aren't committed one way or another. But if you are the child-ed baby-lover and you choose also to look for signs that others don't like your kid and therefore your choice, well.... you are taking part in your own suffering or martyrdom.

I'm trying to figure out how I'm suffering, why I'm a martyr and where either of those ideas came from. :winkgrin:
I also don't care if others like my children or not.
And think that women who don't want kids should never ever have to deal with crap from anyone over that decision. It's just as normal to not want kids as it is to want them. I've supported that numerous times on this BB. As well as shaking my finger at those who assume their children are Speshul Snowflakes.
Things would work better if everyone were laid back like my mom. She thinks its normal to adore your own kids and have a range of feelings about others. But she doesn't ask people do give her credit for her decision to have 'em. A big, still-rabid fan of legalized abortion, she just.doesn't.care what others think about any woman's decisions to have kids or not.


I agree with you mom 100% pertaining to what you've posted.

We can compare having children to having dogs in one way:
Say I strongly dislike dogs. They oog me out, just not a fan. We both live in a building that allows dogs. Building is crappily built. I can hear everything you and your dog do. So you should never ever ever have your dog make ANY noise when it needs to go out or is playing or whatever. I hate dogs, I want to sleep and I refuse to block out the noise myself. And since your dog has made noise and bothered me, YOU must be an inconsiderate owner who is either neglecting their dogs, raising is wrong, etc. Ugh, nasty filthy dog! If you CHOOSE to have a dog then you had better soundproof your apartment so those who chose NOT to have them don't have to listen to it. Don't care that it's not making any excess noise, either get rid of it, move out or duct tape it quiet. I HATE dogs, they're nasty and everyone who owns one thinks they're special because they chose to have a dog! And everyone else should just deal with it! And even though I knew the building allowed dogs and before moving in I knew you had a dog next door, you had BETTER make sure I am never ever bothered by it because you are NOT special and neither is your yucky little dog! And stop playing the suffering martyr too. ;)

Kinda doesn't make sense either way, does it? :) (I adore dogs, BTW, but plenty of people don't)

Look, dogs and kids happen. If you really really dislike kids or even if you really really require quiet then you look for a building that has single occupancy only units. No kids there, kids can't live singly and pay rent. :D Same with dogs, if you hate them find a No Pets building. Granted it's a bit harder to find single occupancy places, but they are out there.

If the places I find that I like best, can afford, etc allow some things that may bother me...well then it's up to ME to come to terms with that and alleviate as best as I can. It's not up to everyone else to handle it.

I think expecting the pet owners or people with babies in the world to make sure nobody ever has to deal with that is a tad...well...martyr-ish. :winkgrin: Unless the baby or dog is being absolutely ridiculous...jumping all over people, biting, peeing on me (baby or dog, LOL) etc...then both are normal parts of society and it's up to those that are bothered by them to work on it.

We all have to deal with some stuff, life ain't perfect and it's not up to the general public to make it so for some of us. My neighbors love their ATVs. They moved here (in the middle of the woods) so they can play on them without nearby neighbors bitching about the noise. I moved here because I love the peace and quiet. So I deal. I made friends with the neighbors. And this is with having a big ol' mortgage on 4.5 acres in a state forest in a town so sparsely populated we don't have street lights or a post office. They have as much right to have fun making noise as I have enjoying the quiet. So it's up to me to deal with it. It's not up to THEM to stop doing something perfectly legal and normal because I don't like it. And I go to bed way earlier than they do.

mvp
Feb. 23, 2013, 05:00 PM
^^
MB, you get that the victim/martyr type I was refering to is not you, MB, but the generic you represented by the OP in the BabyWreck thread.

With respect to the dog-in-same-apartment analogy, I don't know what to say about the a priori dog-hater who is subsequently confronted with a badly-managed dog.

I have a hard time believing that anyone would get amped up to hate a dog (or kid) if the thing weren't somehow in his/her way. One can continue to have a generic and bigoted hate for dogs (or spiders or whatever), but I don't think even that evil-confined-to-the-inside-of-someone's-head makes them behave badly.

Yet those who accuse folks of hating babies as the main or largest cause. That's offensive because it accuses the hater of something and also "normalizes" whatever version of having a kid or a dog (or a spider) that the owner would like.

In short, it leaves no room for the person who hates the way you manage your kid to be cool with kids in general.

magicteetango
Feb. 24, 2013, 11:49 PM
I think both camps take it too far.

For instance, the whole you can't give advice thing because you don't have kids. Yeah, a kid less person probably shouldn't criticize my parenting... it is a difficult thing to "walk a mile" in. And every kid is different, mine are night and day personality wise, so it is impossible to say "You absolutely needed to do this." However general advice...

MVP I was really surprised to hear you didn't have children. Not only was your advice spot on, it was spot on development wise as well. Do you work with children? I have kid free friends who try to help me with advice (god how many have googled DS1's sleep problems!) and they ask everyone with kids they know. They listen to me, and that's the most important part.

They have plenty of situations in their life which haven't happened to me and won't. I give them advice on those... not that different. I don't get the defensive behavior.

I do think those who are vehemently anti kid do need to remember... most parents are doing the very best they can at that moment. Not trying to inconvenience them or annoy them, but some kids are tough and some situation are hard to fix right away. There needs to be more understanding on either side, just because we chose different paths doesn't mean we need to be against each other.