Hoof Concavity: Why and why not? UPDATED PICS [Archive]

EqTrainer

Mar. 28, 2006, 06:17 PM

I have a horse that only achieves concavity in his feet when he is shod. He typically goes thru the late spring/summer/early fall shod and I pull his shoes for winter. Within a few weeks of pulling them off he has grown out his nail holes and everything looks great - and he is sound thru the process - but he slowly loses concavity over the winter.

By this time of the year, he has lost almost all concavity. He also starts to become a little sensitive. His foot looks GREAT - balanced, heels back/under, toe short (he tends to not wear as short a toe as I would LIKE to see, but that's him) and his white line is tight.

My farrier thinks it is environmental - that when he has shoes on, I ride him on surfaces that encourage his foot to grow more concave, and that in the winter he is on softer surfaces and therefore he grows a flatter foot. He does not think it is a laminitis issue as it begins in the winter and progresses over the spring and he shows no other signs - he's certainly not a sinker.

So what gives? Any ideas? Obviously I would like him to have optimum concavity all the time!

Huntertwo

Mar. 28, 2006, 07:03 PM

I use the Natural Barefoot Trim to achieve a concave affect. My farrier rasps the toes *under* and never trims the frog unless it is thrushy. My mare never chips even if she is a bit overdue and is never sore with this process. I hope to learn this and eventually do my own trims.

Lookout

Mar. 28, 2006, 07:21 PM

Have you measured the concavity (lack thereof) at its worst? Just curious to know how flat it is. Sometimes shoes give a false appearance of concavity by "holding" things together, ie "vaulted". If his feet aren't warmer when they're barefoot than when shod I would guess that perhaps he isn't getting enough circulation at the coronary band and maybe there aren't enough nutrients to the wall/laminae promoting good strong growth and attachment which results in concavity. Does he mustang roll the wall when barefoot? This can promote concavity.

EqTrainer

Mar. 28, 2006, 08:19 PM

Lookout, how do you measure concavity? Am not sure if his feet are warmer barefoot or shod, will most likely not shoe him until May.

He is definately rolled. I was looking at him again at feeding time and I swear.. I think his heels are too short! They are wayyyyyy back underneath him - definately NOT long and underrun - but no real heel length. The pasture he is in is very dry and abrasive, I wonder is he wearing his foot off too quickly...

he is one of those horses that just gets a going over with the rasp every two weeks or so and then my farrier checks him at 6 weeks. Usually just takes off a bit here or there, nothing significant. So I think his feet are essentially in balance.

Will try to take pics tomorrow. I am wondering if he needs some benign neglect.

Lookout

Mar. 28, 2006, 08:24 PM

I know, the temp comparison is a long term project :D but something to keep in the back of the mind.
One way to measure concavity is by laying a straight edge across the sole at the frog apex and measuring from the straight edge to frog apex (a vertical measurement). This is the deepest point of concavity in the coffin bone and should be around 1.5 cm in front, more in back.
The way you described his roll doesn't sound like what I was imagining. Maybe someone else who does this more can explain it better.

Posting Trot

Mar. 28, 2006, 08:25 PM

It seems as though it might be possible that the softer winter footing would mean that the sole wouldn't get exfoliated. In other words that the "loss of concavity" that you're seeing is an illusion--what you're really seeing is built-up, dead sole.

One way to tell for sure is to take some x-rays of the foot and see what's going on inside. (Although I'm sure that if the horse is sound paying the money for x-rays just to see what's going on is probably not high on your list of prioritized expenses :D).

When I had my mare shod, she usually had pads. When I would take off the shoes for the winter, the soles did look flat because the pads had prevented the sole from being exfoliated.

EqTrainer

Mar. 28, 2006, 08:39 PM

PostingTrot, I have thought about that, thank you for reminding me.

I am one of those people who is afraid of the hoof knife <LOL> I think tho' that he is pretty clean soled. We have been so dry this year, and his pasture is not just flat, that they all do a pretty good job of keeping their soles exfoliated.

But it is possible. It just seems so odd, to see it change like that.

I would LOVE to take films and may do that when my vet comes out to do Mr. Insulin-Resistant-I-Had-A-Flare-Up (different horse, different head ache).

Diet: The horse in question is an easy keeper. He gets all the fescue hay he can eat (this time of year, he is starting on grass), a ration balancer, 2 oz mag ox, sel/E, and the min/vitamin mix that goes with the balancer + corn oil. If I were trying to promote a healthier foot, what could I change/add/subtract? I do have to say, his feet look very healthy and he never abcesses.. he is a very healthy horse in general :)

Mar. 28, 2006, 09:11 PM

EqTrainer, I have a horse here who just doesn't exfoliate his sole. He does the exact same things the other two do - those usually have very little for me to scrape off with the knife. But this guy usually has a good solid 1/4" of dead sole that easily comes off with a dull knife. Before I trim, he looks pretty darn flat. After I trim, he has 3/8" concavity, and remains sound.

When you look at your horse's sole, is it smooth, or is it crackly looking? The latter would indicate the sole is trying to exfoliate, but environment isn't doing it. For some horses, I believe, enough dead sole that remains packed in can cause some pressure.

EqTrainer

Mar. 28, 2006, 09:14 PM

JB, his sole looks smooth and waxy. Some loose material around the heel area somtimes. But for the most part, I don't see anything to trim.

But as I said, I am afraid of my hoofknife!

Mar. 29, 2006, 08:31 AM

His foot looks GREAT - balanced, heels back/under, toe short (he tends to not wear as short a toe as I would LIKE to see, but that's him) and his white line is tight.

Do you happen to have any pictures of his Winter feet? I just wonder if his entire foot gets run forward. No stretched WL, but just a too far forward foot overall. In softer ground, the horse won't wear the toe back, but that doesn't mean it's right for the foot. It might be that you have to keep aggressively backing the toe up.

jenvdh

Mar. 29, 2006, 08:40 AM

I have a pony that developes very flat soles too. His problem is that his sole is so hard that it does not exfoliate like it should and will fill in nearly level with the hoof wall. This has several times fooled me when I was trimming his heels too. I thought I was trimming so that I had a clean heel/bar triangle, but in reality I wasn't trimming to live sole. Is it possible that the lack of concavity in your horse's hooves is due to too much sole??

slb

Mar. 29, 2006, 12:41 PM

If his feet aren't warmer when they're barefoot than when shod I would guess that perhaps he isn't getting enough circulation at the coronary band ...
Lookout...this is an interesting bit of information....do you have links or references to the original studies that determined this? Or are they simply your observations and opinions?

How would one determine if a hoof were warmer wnen shod or undshod? Simply by feel doesn't seem good enough....since the hoof can be warm or cold at any givern time depending on when the hoof "calls" for circulation. I have handled lots of horses' feet that are shod and then unshod and they are never noticably different in temperature...but, perhaps I am missing something.

slb

Mar. 29, 2006, 12:50 PM

luvmytbs

Mar. 29, 2006, 01:00 PM

Lookout...this is an interesting bit of information....do you have links or references to the original studies that determined this? Or are they simply your observations and opinions?

SLB, there are documenting pictures in Strasser's book A Lifetime Of Soundness. The pictures were taken with an infra-red camera and you can see a tremendous difference of temperature between shod and barefoot horse's lower legs.

I don't know if she has those pix on her website as well.

Lookout

Mar. 29, 2006, 04:34 PM

If you horse's feet don't seem to change size or shape when they are not shod vs shod....then I don't believe that the shoes are giving you any false impressions of concavity either. This generally happens when the hoof is contracting/contracted as a result of incorrect shoeing. When the shoes are pulled in these cases, generally the hoof will try to regain its more natural shape and thus will most likely flatten somewhat compated to the vaulted appearance that it had when contracted.
Do you have the links or references to the studies that determined this? Or is it just your opinion?

slb

Mar. 29, 2006, 06:44 PM

SLB, there are documenting pictures in Strasser's book A Lifetime Of Soundness. The pictures were taken with an infra-red camera and you can see a tremendous difference of temperature between shod and barefoot horse's lower legs.

I don't know if she has those pix on her website as well.
Um....i was hoping for a real source of information on that. Those images are at best questionalbe. Thermography is not a measurment of blood flow, but rather of heat and it must be very carefully done as the images can be effected by a variety of environmental and other factors. If thermography were all that accurate, it would be used in many research projects....such as Pollitt's...rather than having to euthanize horses to study some effects of circulation.

Thermography is commonly used as a secondary diagnostic tool that indicates wehre an injury or pressure point might be...not where there is or is not circulation. While these things are related, they are not necessarily accurately diagnosed by the same instruments.

I don't want this to be a "Strasser thing"...I am simply looking for more research on the subject so that I can draw my own conlusions from a number of studies rather than just relying on one controversial one.

EqTrainer

Mar. 29, 2006, 06:49 PM

Ok, I could not get pics today. But I did attack him with my hoof knife <LOL> against my better judgement. Here is what I found:

Towards one heel, he did have quite a bit of dead sole that easily flaked out and left me a nice looking heel :) the opposing heel (inside) appears to be live OR the most packed, dead sole I have ever seen in my life OR a bar that has just gone crazy wild and is impacted past anything I have ever seen. I can barely cut into that area with my hoof (!) knife. Towards his toe he did have some extra sole to exfoliate but not a whole lot. His breakover is VERY short, about an inch from the point of his frog, maybe less. He does not have a great toe callous. He also had a nifty bruise that bled when I scraped it, very near that toe.

The other foot had less easily distinguishable dead sole material. I took some off, hoping to find something that clarified the situation but never really did. When I was done, both feet were more concave. And he walked off ok until he hit a rock and then OMG..

hopefully tomorrow I can get pics. I really don't think this is a "toes need to be shorter" thing. I am pretty toe aggressive. Maybe too toe aggressive! I should throw away that hoof knife..

EqTrainer

Mar. 29, 2006, 06:53 PM

EqT....I also think that it is a matter of a wetter, softer environment. Perhaps even a lack of exerecise? I would also recommend getting x-rays if there is cause for concern.

In general, I think that concavity is a direct result of the strength of the hoof structures (espeically the laminar junction). However, I also think that there are many factors that come into play. I have a mare that is a sinker that has great concavity in her feet (and no contraction)...so that is not necessarily a related thing. However, I can also say that if she gets excited in a stall and jumps around that she can end up with flatter-than-flat feet in a matter of minutes. So, her concavity is not really "false", but it is volitle. So, there is definately more than just the strength and health of the lamina....but that is most likely a major player....in determining/keeping concavity.

If you horse's feet don't seem to change size or shape when they are not shod vs shod....then I don't believe that the shoes are giving you any false impressions of concavity either. This generally happens when the hoof is contracting/contracted as a result of incorrect shoeing. When the shoes are pulled in these cases, generally the hoof will try to regain its more natural shape and thus will most likely flatten somewhat compated to the vaulted appearance that it had when contracted.

Ahhhhh... slb... I can't say this post makes me feel great <LOL> I kinda think he is of the volative concavity category.

Nope, his feet do not change size or shape when shod. His heels are never contracted and he does not expand or spread once they are taken off. In my heart I feel this horse has healthier feet when he is shod, which baffles my logical mind but I can't shake it. Once I realized that he is always concave when shod and loses it when barefoot it really got me to thinking, hence this post.

I do not think he is being trimmed as if for a shoe, as I see sometimes and then the horses are really sore. I am suspicious tho' that we may have been taking off too much toe. Again, will try to do pics tomorrow.

slb

Mar. 29, 2006, 06:54 PM

Do you have the links or references to the studies that determined this? Or is it just your opinion?
If you read carefully, you will have your answer. I sometimes have trouble sorting out what may be research from your opinions as you do not tend to express that difference in an apparent manner.

luvmytbs

Mar. 29, 2006, 07:17 PM

Thermography is commonly used as a secondary diagnostic tool that indicates wehre an injury or pressure point might be...not where there is or is not circulation. While these things are related, they are not necessarily accurately diagnosed by the same instruments.

I hope that you can find something more valuable and share it with us. Unfortunately that is the only documented example I could think of.

While I myself have used my own testing by simply "feeling" the difference in temperature or pulse in horses that are barefoot versus shod, that would not qualify as scientific research. :(

Lookout

Mar. 29, 2006, 09:30 PM

I have handled lots of horses' feet that are shod and then unshod and they are never noticably different in temperature...
This doesn't surprise me. As you well know, not just any barefoot trim will necessarily provide the circulation that raises the temperature of the foot. Mine do; apparently yours don't.

slb

Mar. 29, 2006, 09:42 PM

I hope that you can find something more valuable and share it with us. Unfortunately that is the only documented example I could think of.

While I myself have used my own testing by simply "feeling" the difference in temperature or pulse in horses that are barefoot versus shod, that would not qualify as scientific research. :(
Yes, I wish that there was a significant piece of research that would come to light. We have an instrument that measures heat to a small depth and have spent a great deal of time measuring temps on feet...the only thing that we noted was that with such a limited instrument that we can basically only locate somethng "hot" like a possible infection/abcess or compare the temps of feet to see if one is warmer than another. In general, we have only found that the general temps vary throughout the day...which would seem to corrolate with Texas A&M research that the circulation in the hoof varies throughout the day as is "called for". According to the Texas research, circulation varies so much in a given time frame that it is impossible to measure.

caballus

Mar. 30, 2006, 07:19 AM

It's pretty well a moot topic to discuss without photos. Any way you can get some good, sharp, clean shots to post?

EqTrainer

Mar. 30, 2006, 07:54 AM

You two.. stop it! I already have kids on spring break here fighting! EqT is ROTFLMHAO...

I will take pics today. I thought for sure last night I had maimed him for life but I see him trotting across the pasture this morning, looking like $$$$$$.

luvmytbs

Mar. 30, 2006, 11:21 AM

I thought for sure last night I had maimed him for life but I see him trotting across the pasture this morning, looking like $$$$$$.

Hmmmmm, that brings a smile to your face doesn't it? :cool:

Lookout

Mar. 30, 2006, 01:59 PM

A farrier that makes the same rounds that I do, has a laser thermometer and has measured feet he has shod, and feet I have trimmed. We have done this enough to make a good correlation of about 10 degrees difference. This carries through on a horse with shod fronts/bare hind for example. Clearly, if you're only measuring one person's work, you're not going to get a valid result. It only shows that that person's barefoot work doesn't give much more hoof mechanism than the shod samples. He wants to do a "study" to measure the same feet throughout the day as well, but IMO that's an unecessary waste of time and a moot point because when you measure all the feet at the same they're all subject to the same governing circumstances.

Yes, I wish that there was a significant piece of research that would come to light. We have an instrument that measures heat to a small depth and have spent a great deal of time measuring temps on feet...the only thing that we noted was that with such a limited instrument that we can basically only locate somethng "hot" like a possible infection/abcess or compare the temps of feet to see if one is warmer than another. In general, we have only found that the general temps vary throughout the day...which would seem to corrolate with Texas A&M research that the circulation in the hoof varies throughout the day as is "called for". According to the Texas research, circulation varies so much in a given time frame that it is impossible to measure.

EqTrainer

Mar. 30, 2006, 02:05 PM

Well Okey Dokey! Here we go!

As always, I take pics and then I cringe... am concerned about this LF.

The surface was uneven so I apologize, his leg really does stack over his foot <LOL>

Sequence is: Front, Inside, Outside, Solar

RF to follow.

EqTrainer

Mar. 30, 2006, 02:08 PM

Sigh.. I didn't take a front shot of this foot.. doh! Probably not necessary tho'.

Sequence: Inside, Outside, Solar

Mar. 30, 2006, 02:51 PM

EqTrainer

Mar. 30, 2006, 02:56 PM

I see a foot that has every right to be flat(ish) ;)

The heels are a bit too tall and contracted, there is too much foot in front of the widest part. I see the possible need to do a vertical cut on the toes to get the POB back more. It needs to come quite a bit farther back.

So no, I'm not surpised there is a lack of concavity.
When I look at the sides, I agree. But the solar says no to me and that is why this horse confuses me :confused: from the point of his frog to the end of his toe is less than an inch. His actual toe length is less than 3 inches. The farthest point of his heel is at the widest part of his frog. There is no heel left to take down - they are less than a centimeter high and are underneath his heel bulbs.

I agree that there is too much foot in front of the widest part but I don't see how to pull it back any further. When we have tried to take more toe off this horse - in any way - he becomes very very lame. The only way we have been able to has been with shoes on afterwards.

caballus

Mar. 30, 2006, 03:07 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/COTHEqTrainer2.jpg

This photo shows where I've marked the weight bearing. The blue shows where it is now; the red line shows where it *should* be. Bringing back the toes as indicated by the red line in:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/COTHEqTrainer1.jpg

will get the breakover where it belongs and get the hoof so the weightbearing is on the 2/3rds rear portion of the hoof. As it is, the blue lines on this photo show that the hoof is pretty equally divided and the weight bearing center is too far forward as well as the breakover very much too far forward.

this last photo that I marked: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v664/caballus/COTHEqTrainer3.jpg shows the general shape that the hoof should be. You can see that the toe needs to come back on this hoof, also ... to bring back the breakover.

Toes can be rockered from the breakover forward to allow for heel-first landing of the hoof. That, coupled with a strong roll will allow for proper functioning of the hoof during movement which will allow for more concavity to develop. As they are now the hoof is migrating forward and that will force the white line to stretch and the hoof to flatten.

The arrows on the photos, one pointing to the laminitic ridges in the hoof, show the "wave" of the ridges that indicate internal pressures. (breakover too far forward, perhaps) ... the other arrow points to the heel bulb that is "pointier" than the other indicating higher heel wall on that side of the hoof causing greater pressure.

As I've said, the correct BALANCE of the hoof is imperative to proper functioning that will keep the hooves in good shape. What may seem to be small nit-picky stuff as I've pointed out can make a huge difference in the way the hooves grow, the body moves and the quality of the gaits of the horse.

Hope this helps a bit.

caballus

Mar. 30, 2006, 03:09 PM

"I agree that there is too much foot in front of the widest part but I don't see how to pull it back any further. When we have tried to take more toe off this horse - in any way - he becomes very very lame."

Take a look at Marjorie Smith's "White Line Strategy" at
http://www.barefoothorse.com

You'll understand better how you can get those toes back and rocker and roll them. Also take a look at Gene Ovnicek's page "natural Balance Trim" at:
http://www.hopeforsoundness.com
That will explain the 1/3:2/3rd ratio of the hoof and the rockering.

LMH

Mar. 30, 2006, 03:53 PM

Nice markups caballus-though I have a quick question on the 'pointy heel'-I have never heard this-good tip.

Now the pointy heel is the taller one, correct? Just making sure i read you right.

Lookout

Mar. 30, 2006, 04:48 PM

The weightbearing of the heel can come back. I agree it does look as if it's at the widest part of the heel, but in reality if you really look at those pictures, the weightbearing is at the "point" formed where the white colored lines of the bar turn the corner, and then the rest of it "drops off" towards the back of the foot, providing no weightbearing surface.

The ridges are not laminitic by any means, and are not from internal pressures. They are from the wall being too long in the quarters; this is an external pressure. The coronary corium forms the wall in the shape it is, if it is curved because of the wall pushing it up, it will produce curved wall. When those walls are shortened (more than the rest of the wall) so as not to jam up the coronary band, the hoof will be able to flex and this increase in circulation can permit a healthier white line to grow in, and thus provide a better attachment and more concavity.

I don't think you can tell accurately from these photos whether the toes are the correct length. The frog tip may be overgrown from its actual apex. The lenght should be measured from the actual tip; this can be found by trimming away the frog tip till you find the real place where it joins the sole. Then you measure the toe. Having said that I don't think it's advisable to be telling the poster to shorten the toes more if that has already been tried and has caused soreness.

Mar. 30, 2006, 04:57 PM

When we have tried to take more toe off this horse - in any way - he becomes very very lame.

How did you "take more toe off"?

LMH

Mar. 30, 2006, 05:13 PM

OK I will share my lessons in shortening or backing up toes, for what it is worth.

I have one horse that sneaked up on me with FFS (forward foot syndrome;)) and his foot migrated forward-as it appears from the photo this hoof has done.

I trimmed him 'normally' in that I lowered heels, addressed flare, and backed up the toe.

He became sore.:(

SO I went a searching for information from the higher power of trimmers and here is what I learned-this information is also in Pete's information AND in Jaime Jackson's book.

When chasing a runaway foot (long toes, ffs, whatever you want to call it)...you can NOT lower the heels on the same trim...sometimes you have to prioritize when making a balance correction.

SO for a couple of trim cycles, you would simply balance the heels, preserving as MUCH height as possible...and working on bringing the breakover back. If you have enough heel/wall height, you could scoop the quarters just to the sole to encourage the back of the foot to open up.

The heels will start to get back under the horse as you bring the toes back...especially if you combine your efforts with handwalking on VERY firm terrain like asphalt.

Once the toes come back, you can then bring the heels back down to just above live sole, if the 'tarmac' promedades' have not worn them down.

I have started this process on one and am using it on the others that were not FFS but dancing with the idea.

It is already working. The only one that was tender was the one I also lowered the heels on before I found this connection to it all.

The asphalt or firm ground handwalking also encourages the heels to come back, creating better heel angles and will also help develop the back of the foot.

If the horse is too tender for barefoot handwalk, boots and some kind of padding are the next option-the padding also correct stimulation and the entire rig protects a tender foot.

The bottom line is, if the horse is not landing heel first, he needs boots or boots and pads-you need to owrk with the arrangement until you find one that allows a heel first landing.

If the horse is NOT landing heel first, he isn't doing himself any favors as the improper landing will cause incorrect stimulation to the structures of the foot...and you won't make progress.

LMH

Mar. 30, 2006, 05:20 PM

More thoughts-

I didn't want to lose my last post.

As far as flat feet and concavity-first, I have not found succes in trimming for concavity-others have...but I never did.

What I HAVE found works is the trim I described above-the foot will only develop concavituy on its own when the structures are strong and the foot can then function properly-this means getting FFS under control, breakover where it belongs, preserving enough foot so the horse lands heels first, and getting him in a conditioning program that encourage heels first landing...as I described in my last post.

I have heard from others of dramatic changes using this program in only 2 weeks.

Another thing to consider is whether the foot has any 'cooties'-WL problems, black stinky frogs-if so, a treatment with Cleantrax will clean the foot up and allow it to 'heal' and develop each structure properly.

I have personally witnessed frogs getting healthy overnight after a CleanTrax treatment.

Just something else to consider.

Again-I know many people have many ideas on feet-and many of those work...I am only sharing what I have done that worked (or didn't) for me.:)

caballus

Mar. 30, 2006, 06:23 PM

"Now the pointy heel is the taller one, correct? Just making sure i read you right"

Yep ... the more pointy one. the excess pressure pushes everything up.

"The ridges are not laminitic by any means, and are not from internal pressures. They are from the wall being too long in the quarters; this is an external pressure. The coronary corium forms the wall in the shape it is, if it is curved because of the wall pushing it up, it will produce curved wall."

I disagree with you. I agree that the corium forms the wall in the shape that it is but with the pressure inside the hoof (from external imbalances) it does cause the laminae to become inflammed. Just ONE inflammed laminae will form a ridge because once stretched (from inflammation) it does not go back to its original shape. Thus, the rings. It does not necessarily mean the horse HAS Laminitis ... but as I said, all it takes in one inflammed laminae to form a ring. Each ring as a formerly inflammed laminae. If there were no inflammations then the external pressure would cause a "wave" in the hairline. That's how to tell the difference. Either way, yes, they are caused from pressure - external that will affect the internal foot.

"I don't think you can tell accurately from these photos whether the toes are the correct length. The frog tip may be overgrown from its actual apex. The lenght should be measured from the actual tip; this can be found by trimming away the frog tip till you find the real place where it joins the sole. Then you measure the toe. Having said that I don't think it's advisable to be telling the poster to shorten the toes more if that has already been tried and has caused soreness."

Well, yeah, you can. Simply by judging where the apex is and by noting where the edge of the sole is. I understand the frog may have grown over the apex but if you look closely you can see the "shadow" of the beginning of the concavity at the apex. More so, as I said, I would advise that the White Line Strategy be done as instructed on Marjorie Smith's page. I did NOT mention "shortening" the toes but did say to bring the toes BACK. There's a difference. Shortening the toes would be done from the bottom of the hoof (done in the manner of taking off the bottom of the hoof) and yes, would make the horse sore because of the live callous that would be taken. Taking the toes BACK is a different matter ... it's actually taking them BACK to the white line ( from front to back - can be done from the top while hoof is on the stand) and rolling well. IF a toe is already back right into the white line to the sole then one would not do this. There's still toe to come back on these hooves.

In order for the hoof to be properly functioning, with the center of weight bearing correctly placed, the breakover correctly fashioned and the hoof landing heel-first, these steps have to be taken. They don't have to be done all in one fell swoop but, maybe, in little bits at a time ... tweaking every other day or so if needed.

Again, coupled with this the horse MUST MOVE.

LMH

Mar. 30, 2006, 06:29 PM

Shortening toes vs. taking toes back

This seems to be a common confusion-I think it stems from the fact when you take toes back you actually do shorten the toe length when measured down the hoof wall-so it does indeed shorten the toe length.

Of course toes can be shortened from rasping the bottom of the hoof-and can sore a horse by removing the toe callous as caballus said.

I just thought it worth mentioning that moving toes back really does indeed shorten the toe (if you want to get technical;) )

EqTrainer

Mar. 30, 2006, 06:41 PM

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful :) I go off to get my haircut and come home to an entire tutorial on my problem horses feet! Thank you all so much for taking the time to do this.

Some things you may all find interesting as we ponder his feet...

His toe is always taken off the front, never from underneath. Any more toe than this and he has always gotten very, very sore. Hence my reluctance to do anything crazy with his toes. We are usually pretty happy around here to take their toes back <LOL> but this guy seems to have a different opinion. I think his toes are very close to the WL right now but will check tomorrow.

LMH - I have always addressed the toes and heels at the same time, except for when I was pregnant <LOL> and you know... I liked his feet better then!

He does currently land heel/toe.. he is in fact an extravagant mover with a very free front end.

He is base narrow and toes in slightly. Adds an interesting twist to those heel bulbs huh?

LF (white foot) outside quarter and heel were high last time I trimmed him. They tend to get that way very quickly. He is also the most concave there. Is there any significance to that?

Regarding his heels, are we in agreement that if they can come back/down more it is slight? I think I could eek out a little, little bit more from them but not much!

Ok, so I am just throwing out random thoughts here after skimming thru what everyone wrote. I am very interested in where he is bearing weight at the heel. The pics may be deceptive regarding his heels as I ran the rasp over them while they were wet since there was absolutely no contrast in the pic.

I haven't gotten to look at the markups yet. But after reading what everyone has written I think I know why he grows a nicer foot in shoes - his toe is protected and therefore can be pulled way, way back without making him sore. Fascinating! Keep it coming and then hopefully we can make a game plan.. thanks again everyone, I appreciate it so much.

LMH

Mar. 30, 2006, 07:18 PM

EqTrainer-you are going to receive lots of advice-so feel free to filter through and take what you wish.

Some points-just because his toes are at the White Line isn't a true indication that they are as far back as the need to be.

The entire FOOT can migrate forward so you can have a tight white line and still have FFS-

So...keeping in mind, toes pull hees forward and toes push heels back, AND knowing he gets sore when you muck with his toes, I personally would just TRY taking the toes back and not touching the heels for at least one trim cycle.

Because we love nice low wild horse heels, this makes most of us with a rasp fetish get all squirmy-but I really feel you will be nervous addressing both-EVEN if his heels look like they need to come back.

At most I would literally do just a rasp swipe to level thim IF NEEDED and focus on the toes.

Addressing the toes can be done 3 ways-or a combo of 2 or 3 of them.

One is a vertical cutback-where the rasp is 90 deg to the sole-or held perpendicular to the sole.

The second is a bevel or a 45 deg rasp back or cut (this is shown on Marjorie's site.

The 3rd is a rocker-ala Gene O, NB trimming-the angle of the rasp is about 15-20 deg above the sole.

What you may need to do, or what *I* would do is a vertical cutback to halfway into the water line-this is actually the white area of the toe, or the unpigmented part of the hoof wall (the water line is not white but cream color).

From there, it depends on how much room I have to the toe callous...

If you have sole between the toe callous and the white line, you can rocker that area...if not, then don't rocker.

If he is landing heel first, then I would likely skip the rocker and go straight to bevel.

you then do the bevel between the toe callous to the vertical cutback-if that makes sense-this will give the appearance of a SUPER mustang roll when the foot is on the ground.

BUT when you or your farrier do this do NOT touch the callous-as Pete says NOT ONE SWIPE.

I will actually cover the callous with my gloved thumb just be be very safe.

If you do this and leave the heels, I am pretty sure (note: PRETTY SURE) your horse will not end up being sore.

As far as the toeing in and more lateral concavity-I am not sure if that is true concavity or just an illusion because he grows more wall...either way it really doesn't matter in the BIG picture.

Pete has a great way of describing sole thickness-if the sole has a flat spot near the wall, then the foot is still not to its full concavity and do NOT TOUCH ANY SOLE...because the foot is trying to grow and pack down sole.

If the sole slopes all the way to the white/wall, then it is probably to its full depth-either way I don't touch it.

I used to scrape the sole until I reached live sole-now I leave anything that is not just BEGGING to come off...I find this little bit of 'dead' sole (not crumbling, but not packed) provides a natural 'sock' that keeps them comfy on more difficult terrain...before when I took this sole, they could be tender over gravel for a day or two.

Again, the pros may disagree with this conservative approach, but I find it to be safe and effective.

Mar. 30, 2006, 08:47 PM

the water line is not white but cream color

E-hem... ;) *giggle*

The water line is white, the white line is creamy colored.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion :D

EqTrainer

Mar. 30, 2006, 10:23 PM

Thanks :D

I have the bad creepies about working on his toe aggressively... think I will do as Caballus suggested and just go a little bit every other day and seeing what happens. I will resist touching his heels <LOL> actually I think they are fine, at least for now and will do ok with some planned benign neglect. I don't have any asphalt.. but I swear his pasture is MADE of it right now.. could longe him out there. He could also go for a walk down the hardpacked driveway.

Until yesterday I had never taken any sole off of him <LOL> as previously noted, I am afraid of my hoof knife. Glad to get to put it away again.

slb

Mar. 31, 2006, 12:10 AM

A farrier that makes the same rounds that I do, has a laser thermometer and has measured feet he has shod, and feet I have trimmed. We have done this enough to make a good correlation of about 10 degrees difference. This carries through on a horse with shod fronts/bare hind for example. Clearly, if you're only measuring one person's work, you're not going to get a valid result. It only shows that that person's barefoot work doesn't give much more hoof mechanism than the shod samples. He wants to do a "study" to measure the same feet throughout the day as well, but IMO that's an unecessary waste of time and a moot point because when you measure all the feet at the same they're all subject to the same governing circumstances.
I'm sorry, you seem to have misunderstood....we did not measure ONE person's work...we maeasured many....some on horses that have never been trimmed/shod.

Since "your method" of trimming admittedly can induce laminitis, I would be skeptical of using that model as part of a study....unless I were looking to compare all models.

caballus

Mar. 31, 2006, 07:12 AM

"Since "your method" of trimming admittedly can induce laminitis, I would be skeptical of using that model as part of a study"

What "method" is that?

LMH

Mar. 31, 2006, 07:20 AM

E-hem... ;) *giggle*

The water line is white, the white line is creamy colored.

Back to your regularly scheduled discussion :D

Good Grief---I can see it now-someone sees a post by LMH and RACES to find all the typos.

We could start a little money pool...taking bets...and seeing who is first to correct me.

:lol: well heck...you KNOW what I meant:winkgrin:

Lookout

Mar. 31, 2006, 01:28 PM

Since "your method" of trimming admittedly can induce laminitis
Unless you've seen any examples of my work, and I sincerely doubt that, I strongly suggest you retract this statement, since you have nothing to base this on except your assumptions. That's a highly inflammatory and irresponsible claim to make on the internet, slb, and I don't think it helps EqTrainer's situation.

EqTrainer

Mar. 31, 2006, 04:05 PM

Aacck! What's up with you guys? slb, I would really appreciate your opinion here.

I have a great deal of respect for *all* of you and am hoping between what you see and what I can tell you about him we can develop a reasonable plan to control this FFS (Forward Facing Slide :lol:).

I am heading out there with a NEW rasp now. May the hoof gods be with me...

matryoshka

Mar. 31, 2006, 08:46 PM

I've had pretty good success rehabbing long toes the way LMH describes. I've got one OTTB that is halfway through the process. His hoof from the halfway point up are at a different (i.e. correct) angle than the lower portion. The lower portion is at the same angle they were when I pulled his shoes after he came off the track. I trim them all the way back to the white line and give him a good role. He is never sore after this trim, because I leave the sole at the to alone. At first I took his heels down because of how forward they are. Lately I have been leaving a little more heel, and he seems fine.

So, the entire hoof capsule has migrated forward at the toe, and his white line is nice and tight. But when the new hoof grows all the way down, his toe will naturally be much shorter. Sometimes you have to work toward what you know is right for the horse a little at a time. You've got to see where you want to go and figure out a gradual way to get there. I find Pete Ramey's technique of doing the vertical nips and more distinct roll (as described by LMH) to be a great way to achieve it.

The horse described above has beautiful concavity that seems to be unaffected one way or the other by the trims. However, I have two flat-footed OTTB's whose concavity improved a lot at first but have not have not gotten much better since then by my trimming method. One could argue that my trimming is at fault, or one could argue that perhaps their coffin bones don't have much concavity. I don't know the answer. Race horses are bred for speed, not hoof health.

They are sound for turnout barefoot, but both are sensitive on rocks--heel pain. I use boots for trail riding. If I wanted to show either of them, I think they'd need shoes to stay sound.

Other horses I trim using this method have all retained or improved their original concavity, and actually get tougher over rough terrain. I've only made a horse sore after a trim once or twice by backing up the toes using Pete Ramey's methods--I suspect it was lowering the heels rather than backing up the toes that made those horses sore. I often have to trim for clients right before a show or long trail ride, so I get lots of feedback about how the horses perform after a trim. It seems some people don't look closely at their horses' feet until the day before a show! :rolleyes:

None of the horses I trim have a narrow heel the way your horse does, so I can't comment about that. It makes me wonder about the internal structures of the hoof, because the widest part is so far forward. I would think your horse would be prone to heel pain, but that is just a guess. Thanks for asking the question and posting the pics. I've found the discussion to be very informative. :yes: I can't wait to see more comments.

luvmytbs

Mar. 31, 2006, 09:19 PM

The horse described above has beautiful concavity that seems to be unaffected one way or the other by the trims. However, I have two flat-footed OTTB's whose concavity improved a lot at first but have not have not gotten much better since then by my trimming method. One could argue that my trimming is at fault, or one could argue that perhaps their coffin bones don't have much concavity. I don't know the answer. Race horses are bred for speed, not hoof health.

They are sound for turnout barefoot, but both are sensitive on rocks--heel pain. I use boots for trail riding. If I wanted to show either of them, I think they'd need shoes to stay sound.

My trimmer has achieved a lot of concavity with my OTTB's. we do trails and go on rocks. She works a lot on opening up the contracted heels right away and scoops the quarters to get rid of the underrun heels.
I found the more I walk the horses on asphalt (road) the more we achieve in hoof funtion.
I can take one of the horses out on the trail and they start out a bit guarded, but by time we get back, there is no tenderness even on gravel. So I think alot of it is in the conditioning as well.

Just my thoughts.

LMH

Apr. 1, 2006, 07:09 AM

luvmytbs-how often and how long are you doing asphalt walks (as the UK calls it-tarmac promenade or TPs)?

I think it is pretty amazing how fast the feet change doing it.

caballus

Apr. 1, 2006, 07:16 AM

"So I think alot of it is in the conditioning as well."

Conditioning has more than alot to do with the rehab! I encourage my clients to walk, walk, walk, walk and more walk on tarred roads. I saw the most dramatic result of this on an OTTB ... 1st trim he was ouchy on gravel at best. 3 weeks later the owner called me to tell me that he was 100% at all gaits on gravel, tar and pasture! When I went back for the 5th week (2nd trim) the hooves had no more white line separation, no more thrush, no more contracted heels, no more yuckies at all. His hooves were gorgeous! This on a horse who had had the shoes pulled just 5 weeks prior and had been in shoes for 16 years!! The owner was very diligent and walked her horse sometimes 4 times a day for 1/2 hr. a walk up and down the road.

We, as hoofcare providers, do nothing more than provide an adequate "template" into which the new hoof grows. The movement of the horse, the environment, the diet, and all the rest does the healing (or not). Even if the template is not "perfect", the hooves can and do restore themselves to health through proper conditioning and lifestyle. It's pretty amazing!!!

EqTrainer

Apr. 1, 2006, 09:22 AM

Thank you everyone :) I rolled his toes (and to the widest part of the foot) yesterday afternoon.. boy that new rasp is handy <LOL> but I realize I will have to buy a hoofstand, my thighs are only so "made of steel"...

He seems ok this AM. When I looked at his foot yesterday with a fresh eye, it really is as if he has two different feet, within the same foot, going on. I think what has baffled me has been the tight white line. I am going to call my farrier Monday and get his opinion too, now that I can ask the right question ;) I have found that with all farriers the right question is essential <LOL> he always takes off more toe/rolls him more than I do. I am suspicious he will tell me that is what he wanted me to do but didn't want to push me past my comfort level trimming.

I have NO asphalt or concrete here. I DO have pasture that at this time is hard as a damn rock due to the drought. So I will probably longe him there and walk him up the clay driveway a bit. Today is his birthday.. what a birthday present :D

If you all are interested, I will keep a journal and post pics.. weekly? Would that be frequent enough or too frequent?

slb, where are you? Your opinion means much to me.

luvmytbs

Apr. 1, 2006, 11:52 AM

luvmytbs-how often and how long are you doing asphalt walks (as the UK calls it-tarmac promenade or TPs)?

I think it is pretty amazing how fast the feet change doing it.

I start with 10 minute hand walks and by end of the first week up to 30 minutes if the horse has issues like flat soles. It seems the horse totally loves the walks, as if he knows that his feet are changing.

If the horse has good feet to start with, I get lazy and ride them on the road right from the bat, same time as above though. By end of first week, I normally have a horse who wants to trot on the road.

We need to ride on the roads for about half a mile to get to the trails so that adds to any conditioning. After that there is gravel for a little while and then the trails are a mix of soft ground, hard ground and big rocks and lots of hills.

A friend of mine added round rocks into her pasture by the gate and found her horses stand on them all the time. One even paws the rocks as if to create a mustang roll. Smart TB gelding! :)

EqTrainer

Apr. 1, 2006, 11:54 AM

I start with 10 minute hand walks and by end of the first week up to 30 minutes if the horse has issues like flat soles. It seems the horse totally loves the walks, as if he knows that his feet are changing.

If the horse has good feet to start with, I get lazy and ride them on the road right from the bat, same time as above though. By end of first week, I normally have a horse who wants to trot on the road.

We need to ride on the roads for about half a mile to get to the trails so that adds to any conditioning. After that there is gravel for a little while and then the trails are a mix of soft ground, hard ground and big rocks and lots of hills.

A friend of mine added round rocks into her pasture by the gate and found her horses stand on them all the time. One even paws the rocks as if to create a mustang roll. Smart TB gelding! :)

No roads other than gravel. I REALLY live in the country!

What now?

matryoshka

Apr. 1, 2006, 03:07 PM

Okay, you guys have convinced me to walk my horse on asphalt and see if he improves. His angles are great, no contraction, but the wall just don't seem to be strong enough. The ground is so hard that when his walls reach the ground they want to splay out. I guess if he wears them off instead it will be a big improvment.

The horse loves to sniff the ground like a dog when I trail ride him, so maybe he'll want to act like a dog on the leash, too. I bet I can teach him tricks. He's quite a character.

By the way, I don't think all OTTB's have terrrible feet. I trim quite a few that have great feet. It just seems that some are more persistantly flat footed than others. This particular horse is Kentucky bred, by Skipaway. He went through the yearling sale, probably shod at that time, and wore shoes until I got him off the track. The same goes with the flat-footed mare. The one I'm currently rehabbing was bred and raced by the same owner: hence, no yearling sale, no shoes until he went into training, good concavity. I do wonder if early shoeing--and no expansion room so they don't pull the shoes--contributes to flat, weak feet when they are full grown.

I'll post an update when I've tried some asphalt walking. I'm always willing to learn/try something new. :)

LMH

Apr. 1, 2006, 03:25 PM

EqTrainer

Apr. 1, 2006, 06:20 PM

matryoshka-perhaps he needs a stronger mustang roll to keep his outer wall from contacting the ground.

Also have you checked his breakover-if it is too far forward it will keep the feet eternally flat.

Gene's 2/3 from the widest part of the foot to the back of the heels and 1/3 from widest part to the point of breakover (back of the toe callous) seems to work best to get the foot in the proper form to all concavity to come.

Also make sure you really are attentive to flares-don't just eyeball it but lay your rasp down the hoof wall and make sure there is no daylight between the hoof wall and rasp.

I used to eye ball flare and was constantly chasing it in between trims-it wasn't until I used the rasp to check for flares, but a heavy or heavy roll (rasp about 45 deg angle and back up half into the inner or unpigmented wall) and get the breakover correct-flares will disappear.

Great tip about checking for flares.. I had forgotten that and I think that is why I kept not taking that outside wall back far enough.

Unfortunately the birthday boy is sore this afternoon :( and walking on the hard driveway was not do-able as there is some gravel there. He was not amused. So I longed him a little on the hard-as-a-rock drylot. It's the best surface I have, I think. He did not think that was funny, at all.

goeslikestink

Apr. 1, 2006, 06:45 PM

luvmytbs

Apr. 1, 2006, 06:53 PM

No roads other than gravel. I REALLY live in the country!

What now?

Boots. With added padding if need be.

I walked a very flat footed, foundered TB with bruising on the road with boots, added padding made from those thick knee protectors they sell for people to kneel on when working in the yard. After two weeks I was able to leave the boots off on the road. So I think those would give enough protection on gravel. You can also add mousepads as padding.

EqTrainer

Apr. 1, 2006, 08:40 PM

id your horse lame eq i noticed sore spots at toe and to the side of sole
thinks hes briused it or possiable puss in toe -- look at the piccy with foot up --- its to pink in to and just along left side of frog tiny bit pink there to

think hes stepped on a few roungh patches if hes sore thats the place-- give him a hose and srub of foot and poultice it --brring the bruise out cause i can see it --

Yes GLS, he did have some pink spots in that pic. Particularly one towards the toe of the LF. Until now tho' they had not seemed to bother him :( I guess tomorrow I will start treating him as a boo-boo horse...

EqTrainer

Apr. 1, 2006, 08:45 PM

Boots. With added padding if need be.

I walked a very flat footed, foundered TB with bruising on the road with boots, added padding made from those thick knee protectors they sell for people to kneel on when working in the yard. After two weeks I was able to leave the boots off on the road. So I think those would give enough protection on gravel. You can also add mousepads as padding.

Ok.. I am confused about something I guess. Why am I supposed to be walking him on a hard surface if he is already walking on a hard surface all day? He's not a quiet horse <LOL> he is always moving and grazing, and spends a great deal of his day chasing his friend. Keep in mind we have had a drought here, our pastures never got soaked over the winter and he goes out in a very grassy, but still dry/hard pasture 12 hours and then is in a glorified dry lot with his friend the other 12. The ground here is HARD and ABRASIVE. If I boot him, doesn't that negate the point? If the point is just for him to move to improve circulation, I doubt that is going to help as he also gets worked 3x week. So... what am I not grasping here?

Signed,
Feeling Lost In Barefoot Land Tonight,
EqT

Apr. 1, 2006, 10:06 PM

ET, if it's your "hard" pasture all day, or even hard packed dirt, it's really not at all the same as an asphalt or concrete surface. Those are abrasive surfaces and do not give at all, whereas even a hardpan pasture (like mine at the moment :rolleyes: does have more give than you think.

matryoshka

Apr. 2, 2006, 08:35 AM

Thanks JB,

Yep, I give him a strong mustang roll. I'm also very agressive with flares. He's got a nice, tight white line and about 1/3 of his hoof is in front of the widest part. When I first got him, he had thin, shelly walls and soles as flat as pancakes. His bars were swells, and the soles almost felt hot. I had a wonderful farrier then who started him on the road to healthy feet. Then she retired, and I took a farrier class and started to trim him myself. He went backwards at first, because dealing with long toes and underrun heels is not covered in Butler's book without the use of shoes. I tried the Natrual Balance trim--no luck there, either. It wasn't until I go Pete Ramey's book and used the vertical cut to bring back the toes that I had any success at all. It was like magic. He got a little concavity and the feet grew in a a steeper, better angle.

However, he requires trims about every 4 weeks to maintain the angle. If I go longer between trimmings (I forget to schedule my own horses when I'm booking trims), then they immediately want to run forward again. The rock hard ground has not been kind to his feet. No matter what I do, the bars want to grow straight across the soles, and I feel like I'm cutting into the sole when I trim them out. :( I don't like it, but I can't let them grow over the sole that way.

The other flat-footed mare has perfectly normal looking feet from the outside. She has correct conformation--beautifully straight legs all the way around, good angles. It's only when you pick up her feet that you see the flatness. She doesn't grow flares. I roll her toes and give her a good breakover. Even her hinds are flat. I'm wondering if it is her coffin bone. Her bars also want to grow straight across the soles. :mad:

I'm willing to try the asphalt walking. Today is so beautiful, though, that I'm going to take my gelding to Fair Hill in his Easy Boots and ride for a while. I've been trimming and training other horses to the point where I dont' get to enjoy my own. So this morning is for fun--then I get to come home and trim the other three. :D

luvmytbs

Apr. 2, 2006, 09:08 AM

ET,

and your hard pasture won't be flat and will have indentation and ridges from horse traffic.

You want a totally flat gound so the hoof will expand evenly all the way around. The same goes for the self trimming on asphalt, it will be even on the hoof and the horse does not have to compensate for rocks and stuff. I hope that makes sense.

I live on a cul-de-sac and I used to longe my first barefoot candidate in my circle on a very long lunge line. It was amazing, how nicely the walls were trimming down evenly. Only drawback: my non-horsey neighbors thought I was nuts, LOL.

CookiePony

Apr. 2, 2006, 09:44 AM

ET,
I live on a cul-de-sac and I used to longe my first barefoot candidate in my circle on a very long lunge line. It was amazing, how nicely the walls were trimming down evenly. Only drawback: my non-horsey neighbors thought I was nuts, LOL.

:lol: What we do for our horses! :lol:

I wish I could ride on asphalt, but around here the roads are too fast and narrow to do it safely.

EqTrainer

Apr. 2, 2006, 01:01 PM

luvmytbs

Apr. 2, 2006, 01:11 PM

ET

I think the Boa's have a pretty stiff bottom.

I don't have boots, my trimmer loans me her very old Old Mac's, when I need them.

Anybody know more?

matryoshka

Apr. 2, 2006, 07:15 PM

When I cleaned my OTTB gelding's feet to put on the Easy Boots (for our trail ride), lo and behold his concavity was back. I trimmed him a week ago, and they were flat. Go figure.

The easy boots didn't even last for the trailer loading. He doesn't hit himself walking, but he caught the back of the boots every stride, so I pulled them off for the ride. He was pretty good on everything but serious rocks. He did get some asphalt walking today on the trail. :cool:

Apr. 2, 2006, 08:17 PM

Well durn, as they say out here. I think in this regard I am scrooged. No way to accomodate this need. So what now? If I boot him how does that replicate the flat hard surface? Does the boot duplicate that?

And so of course now the ? is, what is the link for used Old Macs?

Is there any way you can trailer to some place where there is a 1/4 mile or so of asphalt that you can walk on for 20 minutes a few times a week?

Boots will help, but don't have the abrasive effect that asphalt and concrete has. OMs, I think, have a "nubby" insert you can use to help condition the feet - I think they recommend about 15 minutes a day, but I don't know enough about the inserts to know if they can help in that regard.

matryoshka

Apr. 3, 2006, 07:37 AM

EqTrainer

Apr. 3, 2006, 07:55 AM

Um, this may sound stupid, but how about if Eq Trainer just rasps the bottoms with the smoother side of the rasp a couple times a week and refreshes the roll--I'd do it once a week. I know you want the foot to expand evenly, with each stride, but you are asking her to go to great lengths just to avoid shoes. If it is that much work to stay barefoot, I think most people would choose shoes.

Also, the Equine Podiatry people recommend walking in pads to build up the digital cushion initially. Using boots would be about the same thing. Easy boots are one of the cheaper options, and the bottoms are fairly firm. You can also use them for soaking if you need to soften them a bit for trimming--that's what I did.

For Eq Trainer's situation, maybe we can think up some alternatives for her to get a similar effect to the asphalt walking without her having to go to so much effort. Maybe line the bottom of the boot with sandpaper for walking?

Eq Trainer, if I recall your OP mentioned the feet going flat rather than staying concave. That happens to my OTTB when I leave his feet go too long between trims. I posted that his feet were flat and I was planning to walk him on asphalt. But then, a week after his last trim he was concave again. His feet never look long, because the walls just spread out when they grow past the sole. The very outer edge of the sole is weight bearing and caloused all the way around, and he is sound. This weight bearing area spreads in toward the frog if I let him get too long. I just puzzled this out this week, since I'm usually very good about keeping up with his trims. I let him go too long between trims over the winter, and he became lame. This thread has been VERY informative--thanks for asking the question in the first place! :)

Well thank *you* :) your last post here has been very helpful! And I appreciate your thoughtfulness... no, trailering him somewhere to walk him is not possible. With 4 other horses, a full training schedule and 2 children (not to mention a Border Collie puppy AND a husband) I really can't plan to take him somewhere for walks. Would be nice if I could. Even better if I could hire someone to do it <LOL>

I definately think he goes too long between trims in the winter. For him probably a refresh every two weeks is appropriate. He is probably getting one every month and then a check from my farrier every 5-6 weeks. So he is probably migrating out during that time and by this time of year has reached this point.

He is sound today. I will try to take more pics toward the end of the week. His frog is shedding like crazy and just looks GROSS <LOL> should be interesting how it looks after that.

I have a horse here with really scary, high heeled, contracted feet that maybe I will start a new thread on. I agree that this has been informative, I hope that it has helped other people. It is always a little intimidating to post pics of ANYTHING on this board. But here I go again.. here is a pic of the whole horse for those of you who would like to see more than the foot!

LMH

Apr. 3, 2006, 09:14 AM

Boots and pads-

I suggest you read Pete's article on boots and such-he has a full discussion on padding and why and how.

Rasping and walking will not do the same thing-it is the pressure of impact and loading the you are looking.

A close second would be boots-and the pad as appropriate per the article.

I have used a boot by Castle Plastics-it velcros on and has a very stiff sole-that might be an inexpensive simple option.

Auventera Two

Apr. 3, 2006, 09:46 AM

Quick question:

Thus far I've read/heard that concrete is very bad for a horse's feet, especially ones that are flat. The coffin is so close to the sole on flat feet that the concussion of the concrete will cause great pain.

So, my question is...is "asphalt" better than concrete? Asphalt is more giving, being that it has a tar base. This is why motorcycles need kick plates on asphalt, or else the weight of the bike will sink right into the asphalt and allow it to tip over. But this doesn't happen on concrete because concrete doesn't give.

LMH

Apr. 3, 2006, 11:00 AM

I think it just depends-I have a flat footed horse that I walked on conrete without problems-

I would just sure the horse is landing heel first!

Others may have better feedback-I am just shooting from the hip on this one.

matryoshka

Apr. 3, 2006, 12:24 PM

EqTrainer

Apr. 3, 2006, 03:20 PM

VERY nice horse! I like to see pictures of the entire horse. He looks like a nice ride, too.

So, let's see. How about booting with sandpaper in the bottom while you ride? That's what I call multitasking!

I'm a mom, too, with 2 kids. No puppies, though. Having kids gives the word "busy" more meaning! ;)

Well thank you :) I like him a lot (understatement). He was graciously touting me around in that pic about two weeks after I delivered my daughter :eek: I really wanted everyone to see that he is not a crippled pasture ornament <LOL> and a lovely mover. I don't think an uncomfortable horse moves like that, particularly not with that nice expression on his face!

I am however a perfectionist, and want him to be that comfortable all the time. So, I am now looking for boots!

He seems very, very comfortable today with his new toes. Phew! What a relief. I can lose sleep over these types of things...

matryoshka

Apr. 3, 2006, 03:48 PM

Well then, let me compliment you on how good you look, too! I sneaked out to ride my mare a few weeks after a C-section, but I forgot my stirrups! Ouch! I was SO sore. You do not look like you've recently given birth in that pic. :yes:

Lookout

Apr. 3, 2006, 05:16 PM

I suggest you read Pete's article on boots and such-he has a full discussion on padding and why and how.
Rasping and walking will not do the same thing-it is the pressure of impact and loading the you are looking.
It is necessary to deliberately provide extra impact with trims that don't naturally promote circulation. The "pounding" of the hard surface stimulates the coronary corium. All these "gymnastics" are to make up for what the trim is not providing. The HPT trim in particular seems to rely on this pounding to stimulate the coronary corium, because the trim inherently provides so little flexibility. That is why you see the wall so thick on those feet, but the rest of the foot doesn't show such development. This can be done a lot more easily by providing a circulation-promoting trim. Then the hard surface of her turnout would be more than adequate just from him walking himself around. The horse does have long walls in the quarters which is evident by the waves in the quarters. If the walls were shortened adequately here (shorter than the rest of the wall), and touched up as necessary, regular movement would more than suffice. Walking on abrasive surfaces especially concrete is not good in excess amounts because it wears off the hoof so unevenly; the edges get lots of wear but the sole and bars and frogs get none/little, and after a while you can get a pretty stubby foot.

PS Nice horse! And nice trot.

LMH

Apr. 3, 2006, 05:27 PM

Interesting Lookout-I had not thought of it that way.

I suppose for DIY'ers the safer approach would still be this way?

Also Easy Care has started making new pads to fit in Boas, Epics and OMs and the padding for this purpose really is great.

goeslikestink

Apr. 3, 2006, 05:39 PM

you have my thought already -- i love that grey i going to marry him with gracie

Lookout

Apr. 3, 2006, 06:14 PM

I can't really speak to what's "safer" for diy'ers or anyone else, but IMO the goal should be effectiveness. If the trim is not doing the job, shouldn't you get a better trim whatever it takes? And, the HPT trim done by a pro, still needs all that corium stimulation. HST, I don't think EqTrainer really qualifies as a diy'er.

Apr. 3, 2006, 08:22 PM

I keep reading over and over here about how important it is to get the flare off the toe of a horse with longer toes and contracted heels. So, does that mean that it needs to be rasped off? Some of the diagrams with the circles and lines drawn make it look like the toe needs to come back as much as 1/2 to 1" for some of the feet for proper breakover. Is this really what is done?

This may be an ignorant question, but wouldn't you be rasping into the sensitive laminae of the foot if you do that?

Apr. 3, 2006, 08:43 PM

dm, if the toe is long, ie flared, then it has a stretched white line. Rasping to that stretched white line, and even all the way through it, means you are rasping dead material - material that will continue to contribute to the toe pulling away as it grows down. The outer lamina is insensitive to begin with, it's the inner lamina that are the sensitive ones.

Assuming you are talking about diagrams that caballus puts up, those are generally the finished products not something that can be achieved in 1 trim (or even a dozen in some cases). The long toe cases have to be continually rasped back to the white line (or through it to the edge of the sole for a while) in order to continually allow the new growth to grow at the angle it needs to be growing.

Anywhere there is a flare this general method of rasping has to take place. Flaring = separated white line = dead tissue.

LMH

Apr. 3, 2006, 09:14 PM

Don't forget you can have flare without a stretched white line-classic Forward Foot Syndrome-the entire foot, including the white line migrates forward-so the WL will not always appear stretched.

Gene O has a great demo of this-he drives 3 nails through a horse foot, behind the toe but in front the frog-the foot is flared and doesn't hurt the horse one bit.

There may be a photo of this somewhere-I know it is on his video.

EqTrainer

Apr. 3, 2006, 09:39 PM

So... is it possible that since this horse does NOT have a stretched white line that is why he gets sore when his toes are taken back to our satisfaction? Are we indeed getting into his sensitive laminae.. or are we getting into it enough to make his foot integrity unstable?

Lookout, walking this horse on pavement is just not going to happen so please, elaborate...

I was wondering if I should float his quarters a little bit, eat lunch and then see what they look like ;) I took the left one down the other day and the hairline looks better already.

Here's what wierds me out about *that*.. his heels were level prior to that. If I were to adjust that quarter to level his hairline completely, I think I would either have a concave quarter OR I would have to make his heels uneven. Now, he *is* base narrow, and he very very slightly toes in. Does that come into play?

I am probably not a DIY'er <LOL> I get quite a bit of supervision. Am hoping being able to ask better questions is going to give me *better* supervision. I know how that works...

oh and thank you! He is a great horse.

Lookout

Apr. 3, 2006, 10:43 PM

I was wondering if I should float his quarters a little bit, eat lunch and then see what they look like ;) I took the left one down the other day and the hairline looks better already.

Here's what wierds me out about *that*.. his heels were level prior to that. If I were to adjust that quarter to level his hairline completely, I think I would either have a concave quarter OR I would have to make his heels uneven. Now, he *is* base narrow, and he very very slightly toes in. Does that come into play?

When you float the quarters, you don't go back all the way and take down the heel too. You stop this float before you get to the heel. Concave quarter is OK on a barefoot horse. In fact that is one of the things that permits the foot to flex and thus increase circulation. Toeing in is a different issue; most likely the wall is slightly higher on the inside and if so should be lowered to even them out.

EqTrainer

Apr. 3, 2006, 10:52 PM

When you float the quarters, you don't go back all the way and take down the heel too. You stop this float before you get to the heel. Concave quarter is OK on a barefoot horse. In fact that is one of the things that permits the foot to flex and thus increase circulation. Toeing in is a different issue; most likely the wall is slightly higher on the inside and if so should be lowered to even them out.

Got it :) that was what I thought I would have to do to get the pressure off of it. It is there to take as he is only concave on that side <LOL> so there ya go.

I will do it tomorrow. Yes he does tend to grow a higher inside wall and I lower it to keep his heels even.

Next week pics might be very interesting.. I hope in a good way! Thanks Lookout.

EqTrainer

Apr. 3, 2006, 10:53 PM

you have my thought already -- i love that grey i going to marry him with gracie

GLS, he loves the girls :) send her over the pond!

LMH

Apr. 4, 2006, 07:29 AM

EqTrainer-very often a horse can become sore when you back up the toes because it brings the breakover back, and causes the horse to shift back and land heel first.

If the back of his foot is not strong from landing heel first or fully loading his heel, those structures in the back of the foot can be weak...so it isn't the toes that are the sore part or even the sole-it is the heel that gets sore from shifting the horse to a heel first landing.

This is where the boots or boots/pads etc come into play.

If the foot is not balanced to somewhere around 2/3 1/3 ala Gene, then the breakover is too far forward-with or without a stretched white line---and the toes need to come back.

The key is how to do that without causing the horse soreness-leaving the heels a bit taller while you are backing up the toe is one option.

EqTrainer

Apr. 4, 2006, 09:01 AM

Thanks :) He has always landed heel first tho'. Never shown any signs of heel soreness either. So I am not sure that is why he got sore when we pulled his toes back. He looks pretty good today :)

Lookout

Apr. 4, 2006, 05:43 PM

One more thing about the asphalt walking and the heel height. I'm not sure I understand the recommendation to not lower them, but the way they are now they are dumping the weight onto the toe. This orientation of toe on hard ground, wears the sole away at the toe preventing any toe height from forming, makes the sole thin there with inadequate protection for the coffin bone and this could certainly make him sore and more so when the toe is backed up. Lowering the heel puts the weight back onto the heel and creates expansion of the hoof which increases circulation which will improve the circulation to the laminar corium and thus will improve the concavity.

I have to disagree with soreness being created by putting weight onto heels. the poster's repeated observations seem to confirm this. This pain explanation doesn't conform with any anatomical principles in the foot. The sources of pain in a horse's foot are from excess horn pressing up into nerves and blood vessels and creating inflammation, abscess, weak laminae, changing the angle on a joint with joint adaptation, and possibly from unused muscles being redirected in new directions - however since there are no muscles in the leg below the knee it would have to be a huge major change to affect the muscles further up the leg. Lowering heels has an immediate effect of relief to the horse by allowing the tendon to attain its maxiumum length and the muscles that were "holding it up", to decontract.

Apr. 4, 2006, 06:16 PM

But if the digital cushion isn't well-formed, couldn't that lead to "heel" soreness if the heels are weighted too much too soon?

Lookout

Apr. 4, 2006, 06:31 PM

But if the digital cushion isn't well-formed, couldn't that lead to "heel" soreness if the heels are weighted too much too soon?

I don't see how, anatomically speaking. But I'd be interested to hear a plausible explanation (based on the anatomy). I'm not aware of nerve endings in it (though i could be wrong). But even so, why and how would this cause pain? And what constitutes too much too soon? What has changed, when it is enough, at the right time? Plus how does anyone really know how poor or well-formed a living horse's digital sling is? So the idea that it might be sore because it might have a poorly formed underused digital sling is several layers of guessing.

EqTrainer

Apr. 4, 2006, 06:54 PM

Sorry to be disappointing but the horse is not heel sore. He lands heel first. So gonna have to find another reason for him to be sore after having his toe taken back. I would really like to know why - but that is not a likely answer.

I looked at him again this afternoon and I really don't see a way to take his heels down/back anymore, at least at this time. What am I missing? Even in Caballus's markups they weren't shown as coming back. They are SHORT. Maybe 1/4 inch? And the crevice (sorry, the name escapes me at this moment) between his frog and heel is very shallow.

What am I missing?

LMH

Apr. 4, 2006, 07:19 PM

EqTrainer

Apr. 4, 2006, 08:17 PM

Welllll you could always take a digital video of him moving and post that for review!

:lol:

There is obviously a missing piece to the puzzle.

I do know some profressionals have said they heels really need to come up to allow the toe to be brought back-

I know this is a different perspective but something to consider

I actually considered that <LOL> but it's unmistakeable. I think the pic I posted is cool in itself as it shows him landing heel/toe in his regular working trot. His front end is so free and his foot gets wayyyyy off the ground and when it lands it is clearly heel/toe. Not like some horses where it lands flat, and certainly never on his toe. He is really fun to watch undersaddle in a collected walk, he looks outrageous, like he is doing the Spanish Walk. My old farrier watched him go one day and said "maybe I have his breakover TOO far back!" That was my old farrier tho'... who is a God.

I agree that there is something missing here. I am suspecting it is his quarters, and that after they are floated a little bit things might becoming more interesting (in a good way). I remember many years ago someone trying a NB shoe on this horse and his toe ended up VERY VERY short and his quarters had so much pressure that when he got back to my old farrier - he pared the wall away to show me all the dead white line... I thought I would pass out in terror of course.. but he ended up fine back in flat steel. His quarters tho'... and his toe... I think on this horse when you start backing up the toe you need to watch the quarters closely. So tomorrow I will, of course, STARE at his quarters all day <LOL> Sorry I am slap happy and will stop soon and go to bed, seriously, I am going to float them a little bit in the AM and then go work all day and check them in the PM.

Oh - - what do you mean, "really need to come *up* to allow the toe to be brought back" Does UP mean BACK? I understand what Lookout is saying aboout if the heels are pushing forward and the toe back. That is what happened to him in a NB shoe (application of it I am sure, the tool itself is wonderful if applied correctly)

He did appear - just appear - to *perhaps* have a tad more concavity today. He is pretty comfortable until he hits a gumball thingimajiggy from the tree above his pasture.

Apr. 5, 2006, 08:12 AM

Oh - - what do you mean, "really need to come *up* to allow the toe to be brought back"

"up" means just that - higher. As in - for now, don't touch them :)

His heels may very well be where he wants them now. You may find that as you get the POB back that you start being able to flick out exfoliating sole at the seat of corn and will see him start asking for lower heels.

Lookout

Apr. 5, 2006, 01:47 PM

There is obviously a missing piece to the puzzle.
I do know some profressionals have said they heels really need to come up to allow the toe to be brought back-
I know this is a different perspective but something to consider
Well, this is an interesting case of chicken/egg inversion. When the four point trim was becoming the hot trend, this was having the effect of causing the heels to "come up" which everyone loved because it gave the horse so much "support". Something about the balance points allowed this to happen, and the higher the heels got, the more the toe needed to be brought back to allow for a decent breakover. So it's interesting to see that it has now inverted to become necessary for the heels to be high in order to shorten that toe. This breakover idea is really a function of shoeing since the horse's breakover is no longer determined by him; it's interesting to see how this thinking has now (unjustifiably) pervaded some barefoot thinking as well.

matryoshka

Apr. 5, 2006, 04:37 PM

I've seen Patty (natural balance shoer) on horseshoes.com say that the heels need to be lowered as the toe is brought back, and vice versa. I have only been studying this stuff for a year and a half, so I'm not familiar with the evolution of all the trim styles out there. I do remember reading about the 4 point trim, though.

I can see how this works. I've got low heeled, long toed horses. If I take the heel down to the straight tubules but leave the toe, the hoof will have a broken back axis. If I trim back the toe and leave the heel, the heels continue to run forward. On a hoof whose heels don't run forward, he'd eventually get a broken forward axis if I left the heel and took back the toe.

I recently read on Pete Ramey's website that he's actually had good luck leaving slightly more heel when rehabbing the hoof to allow for the digital cushion to improve. The heel can be brought down gradually each trim. Since then I've left a little more heel on my guys, and sure enough, they're doing better on gravel. His reasoning is that a lot of horses that are sore on gravel are actually heel sore, not sole sore, so leaving support at the heel makes sense. I've tried it and so far agree. However, if the hoof starts to run forward again, I'll have to take the heels back down. And I'm not talking about a lot of height, maybe a sixteenth of an inch? --This is my interpretation of his writing, not necessarily what he is trying to say!-- I try all of this on my own poor horses before I apply it to my client's horses. They all know I'm still on a learning curve and have been very understanding with me. I've got some great clients!

Trimmers can affect where the hoof breaks over by where they nip the toe back to. For the run forward feet, I've got to nip a lot closer to the white line in order to have them breakover soon enough to land flat or heel first. If I don't they land toe first. Some horses appear to maintain a wonderful breakover point without much help from the trimmer.

This is just my opinion, but I find the concept of breakover to be very important to how I approach the trims.

Apr. 5, 2006, 05:13 PM

So it's interesting to see that it has now inverted to become necessary for the heels to be high in order to shorten that toe.

I think, from my interpretation, that PR is saying that if you are trying to BOTH shorten the toe and lower/bring back the heel AND it makes that horse sore, then ONE way around this is to temporarily leave a bit more heel than you might otherwise leave on a healthy foot. This does assume at least a slightly pathological foot of the LTLH variety (or LTHH). Then, when you have gotten the toe back at least somewhat, you can start lowering the heels again.

As for the long toes, you certainly can't lower the heels and do nothing to bring the POB back - that's asking for a tendon injury, so yes, matryoshka, you have to at least address heels. I think you get into a difference between underrun heels and high heels, both of which are too forward, both of which need to be brought back, but at least from what I have seen, the higher heels can be left more easily than the underrun heels, since at least with the underrun heels you aren't changing the height of the heel off the ground even if you take off a lot of heel. Then a swipe or three weekly is usually enough to keep them at least not any worse off while you are working on the toes. I too made the mistake twice of backing the toe to where it should be AND lowering the heels to where they should be and had a sore horse for a couple of days.