Runaway problem...any suggestions?

[Need4speed]

I have a team of mares. They had about 6 drives apiece with a breaking mare. I then put them together. Together, they had about 4 drives together. They were doing absolutely fantastic. Geed, and hawed, whoad, backed a bit, were calm. Took them on bush trails, up and down hills, cleaned the barn with them...Very responsive (huge mares though, about 17.2hh). I was using them to feed square bales on a stoneboat. Went to the hay stack, whoaed them. Someone who has a whooooooole lot more experience with driving than I, and who I respect very much, was going to hold the lines while I loaded the bales on. This person didn't stand on the stoneboat, rather they stood beside it. Because of the respect I have for this person, and their knowledge, I would never presume to suggest that they do something different. The mares started walking away, and the person, not having good footing (snow), couldn't really brace themselves, tried stopping them, the mares started going faster, the person yelled that they couldn't hold the lines, I tried diving for the lines, managed to get one, was ineffective, especially on my belly, wet gloves, lines slipped through my fingers, at this point mares trotting, then moving to a run. They took out a fence, and were stopped by a tree between them.

Since this point, I have separated them, drove them again with the breaking mare, put them back together...and they run. I'm quite strong, however I couldn't hold them, which kinda freaked me out, as I've always figured my strength could hold a team if neccessary. Even from a walk, if they decide they are going, I can't hold them back from picking up speed. I don't drive with loose lines, my arms always flexed, ready to hold back if neccessary; won't hold these mares. I broke off part of my kneecap in a wreck with them recently. I've tried ground driving them in a small area. They dragged me part of the way, until I had to let go. I've tried stronger bits. Doesn't do anything. If they're going, they're going. i'm scared to drive them now.

Are they a lost cause? Any suggestions? I'm thinking of selling them separately. I don't believe these mares can be driven together safely. What are your thoughts? They are nice to harness, great temperament, but put them together, and they become wired.

[horseyfolks]

LostFarmer, heres one for you.... think the tire of education would help with these ladies?

I am nowhere near a horse trainer but I am going to offer my opinion. A runaway is no good to anyone. From what you say the mares have learned they can runaway and they are doing it regularly.

You admit you are afraid to drive them now. If you force yourself to drive you are making the situation worse because the mares can tell you are afraid. The whole situation sounds to me like a visit to the emergency room waiting to happen.

If you have a strong, knowledgable, experienced trainer available you could ask his/her advice. If you live near an Amish community, spring is coming, maybe you could have them used as a farm animal. I have heard that there are Amish who will solve your problem for use of the animal.

If you are honest about the problem (with potential buyers) I think your chances of selling the mares as driving horses are practically nil. I don't have the answer to that but I know a runaway is a very scary and dangerous thing.

I also have a very large horse and I know how strong they are. I completely sympathize with you. The instant I recognize a problem with mine I go running for help. I'm not a hero.

Personally, I would be rid of them. As was told to me a number of times.... there are to many good horses available to risk injury with a bad one.

Good luck and be very careful.

Don

[Need4speed]

Hi horseyfolks, thanks for the response. Unfortunately the most knowledgeable, experienced trainer I know (I work for them), is very ill. I do believe that he thinks that they're not safe. I could drive them separately for as long as I want, but as soon as they're together is when I'll have my next runaway.

I would actually love to keep them for broodmares, having such a nice temperament on the ground and all, but I'm not at that point in my "life's plan" yet. It's a couple of years early for that. I can't really keep them around for no reason, and just pay for the feed.

I would never sell them as a team. I don't know about liability issues and all that, but even that notwithstanding, I couldn't in good conscience sell the pair as a team, knowing what I know about them. I wouldn't want to be responsible for them hurting someone else. I do think that individually they can be worked, however when hooked together, they feed of each other, one being worse than the other.

Unfortunately, I'm not anywhere near Amish country. Had they successfully been trained, I would have used them for farm work. It's the best kind of training. Unfortunately, I can't even pick up the lines now without them taking off.
Ironically, I have successfully helped train a number of teams for people. This was my first very own team of unbroke mares. And these are the ones that didn't work out.

[Curley07]

Ideally, I wouldn't drive these mares together at all right now until they are much more broke. Hook them back up with the breaking horse for awhile with perhaps a snub rope (so that if she takes off, they end up pulling the weight of the whole load themselves ... they won't get far). If you have to drive them together, try to find an enclosed area, use the stone boat vs line driving and put a good curb on them, and adjust it so that they are not walking right through with you. If you don't have an enclosed area, then a large open field in which you can circle them until they stop may help. But ideally, I would hook them with the good broke horse for a long time and then put them back together next winter in a field where there are big drifts that you can use as a safety if they do run. Try not to get in the habit of holding their mouths all the time as it will make them less responsive to the brakes when you need them. If you decide to sell, I agree that selling them as a team would be next to impossible. Separately, maybe. If they are purebreds and they are nice, perhaps breeding them and selling them in foal would make the job of selling them much easier. A team that you don't trust, and that you're not sure you're equipped to deal with doesn't sound like much fun at all. One word of caution, if you do find a mennonite etc to work them, visit the farm first and view the horses ... some of them aren't the best at feeding them enough and they get pretty skinny pretty fast in hard work... however it is a good way to get a horse broke without paying much (around here it's free to about $3.00 a drive).

[amdfarm]

Maybe I didn't read the posts correctly, but SIX drives w/ a seasoned horse before being put together??? That doesn't sit well w/ me.

They should have had a solid 30 days driving (or however long it takes) w/ the seasoned horse before being put together, especially now that they've run away and are aware they can get away w/ it, and have twice now.

They need to be worked and worked hard consistently until WHOA, stand until told otherwise, is re-established and w/ the seasoned horse, not together. Changing bits isn't going to help at this point. You need to change what's between their ears, not in their mouth. It worked before and it's not too late for it to work again. And I agree w/ the poster that said to lay off their mouth. Being up on the bit is one thing, but they know you're afraid and hanging on their mouth lets them know and they anticipate what you're going to do and they bull right through it. You don't want them to have hard mouths at this stage in training.

I'd work them (w/ the seasoned horse and in a enclosed area if possible at first), make them stand, work, stand, and so forth until it's instilled that running off is NOT an option (hopefully the seasoned horse is able to hold them back.) Baby steps, start back slow to regain their confidence and yours. In order to work as a team, the driver has to be on board, too... through trust. If you can't trust them, they're never going to trust you. Consistency and praise. It really isn't their fault they ran away at all w/ that little of driving. Now an experienced horse that knows better, yes, but it can and does happen. But when it happens w/ drafts it's darn scary. I've been there. More reason to nip it in the bud now. Don't give up on them.

Another suggestion, have their teeth checked. Make sure all is well in there before bitting them again. Mares get wolf teeth, too, and also check bit fit.

[kearleydk]

Don't give up. Just back down to the baby steps. I can't think of a thing to add to the responses you already have gotten except this:

These two had a bad experience together. Put yourself in their brain. It would be like "Wow when I'm with her (the other mare) I get my mouth yanked on. I get hollered at and then that stoneboat attacks me from the rear. Being beside her is NOT a good thing but I can still run."

I'm sure it will take much more time to fix than it would have taken had that first runaway never happened.

Runaways happen for a thousand different reasons and it may (will?) happen again with these two. At least you've already been there, done that, with them.

I had my first runaway behind a pair of drafts. Mares, 18 years old and dead broke. One slipped her bridle off and we were off like a shot.

Slow down, step back, breath deep, study the situation and then start MAXIMIZING the chances for success while MINIMIZING all chances of failure and injury to you or the horses.

Caspiandriver

[jerry]

I don't know that it's a lost cause. I was afraid my big guy would run on me after a big wreck with a cart, and he did. But I had him hooked to a big tractor tire with seating arrangements for me to enjoy the ride this time. Yep, got that one from Lost Farmer. He didn't run too far with a good load dragging along. I then made him pull it till his legs went rubber. He got the message. A horse that won't stop and stand is a horse that needs a regular hard job of pulling. They'll stop and stand. You might check out some discussions on the proper usage of the running W. It is considered radical by some, but is apparently very effective.

[Need4speed]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I am planning on selling the mares. Gothedistance, you're right. The trust is gone. I'm just waiting for them to hurt me again, which means that I don't act around them the way I should, and the way they deserve. It was driver error that caused the first runaway, and it just snowballed from there.

Jerry, I do like the tractor tire idea, but I know that as soon as that tire comes off, I'm going to be terrified that they'll be going again.

Amdfarm, yup, 6 drives. That's the way they do it here. I work here, so I do what i'm told. Alot of very well broke teams have been sold here. I may not agree with everything, but I have seen the methods be quite successful.

[Cartfall]

N4S-- Once that trust has been replaced by your fear, it will telegraph down those lines. Your personal safety is way more important than a team with a questionable ability to drive.

Been where you and and still coming back from it. Not driving, but riding. Same issues though.

[Flipsmom]

I was going to suggest waiting for a very deep snow to hook them and put them in a wide open area and let them go..they'll tire..Once they have drive them for another half hour to an hour. Do this a couple of times and you'll normally change their minds.

Since you can't do that from lack of snow. Do you have access to horse drawn farm equipment? If you do put them on a plow or something similar..probably easier to use something you can sit on. Set it down as deep as possible and let them pull. It's the same theory as the snow...it tires them out and they realize that it's way too hard to run.Once they get tired and start walking them make sure you keep them working longer so they realize that works continues even if they run. Make sure there is lots of people around just in case..and if you don't feel that you can hold them at all then get someone else to drive. Good luck..they can be broke of this it's just gonna take time.

[Ashemont]

We're very new to driving but our trainer is extremely experienced. He cautioned us at the beginning to go slowly and warned that once a horse has a bad experience with a cart it is usually almost impossible to overcome to the point that the horse is 100% reliable. So we gave him all the time he wanted to have our horse at a point where he felt Phoenix was safe for us to drive - given that WE were beginner drivers.

It took 3 months with our trainer driving the horse 6 days a week. Initially he drove him with another horse who was solid and quiet and steady. After 2 months he felt that Phoenix was going well enough for me to take the reins... but with him sitting beside me. All of the training has paid off as we now have a lovely horse who, although still green and young, is responsive and safe.

I just don't think you can value safety enough. There are too many good horses out there to take a chance with ones who are unsafe. N4S I think you've made a very wise decision. Sounds like you've been very lucky with this pair so far in not having a serious wreck or injury. No sense in tempting Fate!

[amdfarm]

If that's how it's done there, wow. Sure, there are exceptions, but I'll glady pay my Amish guy for 30 days and do the rest myself.

I guess I look at it this way. If a horse bucks you off, do you sell it right away or get back on? Any horse that has your number, and knows it, is going to try again, especially the green ones. Is it the horse's fault?

If your confidence is shot w/ this team, how do you carry onto the next, knowing it can potentially happen again?

Jerry is right about the running W. In capable hands, it's a great tool, just as a bit.

Good luck.

[kearleydk]

N4S: Sell 'em single as very green horses and your conscience should be clear. I'm glad Jerry, who seems very level headed, and Amd put in the running W. Perhaps not for you, but just to keep it on the table. As Amd said it is another tool and like some bits can be cruel, but in gentle and careful hands it can be very effective. It is not necessary to throw running horses. It works quite well to show them at a walk that they CANNOT continue to move after you say whoa.

However if I had a running W on and my horse or horses started running away you better believe I'd pull it.

Again, I mention this just to keep it on the table. Seems you have other horses available and are not head over heels in love with the current pair so sell 'em.

[RidesAHaflinger]

Somewhere I have a link to a website where the guy uses something called a foot rope. The idea is that a rope is tied around the horse's left front fetlock, run up over the shaft and either tied to the carriage or carried loosely in the driver's hand. If the horse starts to run, the driver reaches down and pulls the rope which lifts the horse's foot and, bingo, the horse is (supposedly) immobilized. There are pictures of this method in action, but, guys, I'm telling you, if I had to resort to that kind of thing to keep a horse from being a runaway, well, no thanks. Life is short and precious and there are too many horses who make good driving horses to waste your life and limb on those that don't want to be driven. How could you ever relax and enjoy driving a horse like that? :eek:

Karen

[jerry]

I doubt that your lack of confidence will come back just because you change horses. I know that 1 1/2 years have gone by, and I'm not yet at 100% confident. Regardless of which animal I use, I worry some. RidesAHaflinger, your legrope is the premise of the running W. (BTW, love your breed choice.) The leg rope should not be a permanent thing, once the horse gets it in his head that running is not a pleasant outcome, he'll dismiss the idea entirely. This is what I'm TOLD by older teamsters who've used it. I never had to to rehabilitate mine, the tractor tire was enough.

[goodhors]

Also wanted to add that what works for one horse may or MAY NOT work for another animal. I have seen that one legged rope trick in action, sure didn't slow that horse down any!! The running W takes both front legs out, and even then some keep going on their knees, which is why you do the rigging in a deep sand or soft surface arena.

We start horses dragging with smaller tires moving up in size to an implement tire, from a front-end loader for working horse up to in tire dragging loads. It does eventually tire them out, but our Sporthorse types don't get tired real quick when they are fit. Drafts are not as good at running far in our experience, built for slower speeds. Scared horses will do unexpected things though.
One of our geldings dragged that implement tire in the large sandy round pen, cantering or hand galloping for half an hour on the long lines. Then he turned around and did the same in the other direction. He was unwilling to slow or stop when requested, not pushed into the work, either way. That tire was totally full of sand part of the time, but would bounce behind him when he really wanted to speed up. That hour's time would cover a pretty far distance since he has huge strides. Even with that pretty heavy load if he had been out on a road we would have been 'far, far way'. I sure wouldn't be able to stay on that bouncing tire to keep up with him!
I know it takes two of us to lift tire to roll out of the way, probably over 300# empty. 500# plus friction with the sand filling it up. Don't count on load to stop the horse in a situation.
That boy didn't really want to be a driving horse though he handled the load well. Some don't and we have to accept that. He was an awful nice riding horse though.

I don't know of ANY successful, rehabilitated runaways. Some who were not ever given another driving chance. Others, special breeds, colors, Teams, who went thru extensive retraining, lots of tricks, methods used in the hands of BNT experts. They ran again. People finally gave up. Some of the matched sets were broken up, then put with other horses, still ran getting the other new horse to be a runaway too. You don't want details of damage that followed, pretty expensive. It is kind of like their brain just disconnects while the throttle is left wide open so they run until they can't. Hit something, fall down, tangled in the trees, whatever, then the brain clicks back in because they aren't "driving" anymore now.

If I had no room to keep and breed them, I would sell them as broodmares, apart, not any kind of driving horse. Be honest so no one gets hurt, take the loss. You won't have to deal with them any more. You learn from this, take more time with new horses from now on. Look harder at situations you plan to get into. Make a plan to work with for progress, don't just copy what you see. Maybe they can read their horses better than you, do things you miss seeing. You learn more as you go along. Steady hands on the reins with a firmly placed driver at all times for a long time with green horses. 30 drives is NOT MUCH time, certainly not a lot of experience for the horses. We aren't even out of the ring with 30 drives, even with the Steady horse in a Pair beside Greeny. A farm pair must be completely reliable, lives depend on it.

[jerry]

Pretty well said, Goodhors. But durn it, where is your sense of ADVENTURE?

[Cartfall]

Jerry, isn;t it an adventure every time we climb up in a cart or carriage or in your case--a chariot?? LOL!

[Ginger]

A running W can break a horse's neck if it gets up enough steam before you pull the ripcord and falls "wrong". Is this fair? If you know they're runaways, don't drive them.

[jerry]

Life is often unfair. I'd take a small chance of him breaking his neck to cure a fatal problem. I play the hand I'm dealt, if he's a runner, I'll do whatever it takes. The running W is a last resort, but it's still an option. Better his neck than yours.

[Need4speed]

Is a running w a trip line? A couple men I know want to try this technique on the team. They figure that cause I'm a "skinny little girl", and I've got no weight behind me, I couldn't hold the mares. The big tough men are gonna show me how it's done right {appropriate male grunting}. By the way, this in no way reflects on the gentlemen who have, with patience, and tact, and knowledge, given me such wonderful advice, and understanding. I very much appreciate it.

Cartfall, I've been riding a heck of a lot longer than driving, and I have to tell you that I feel safer on the back of a runaway horse, than a bumping sleigh, or wagon, going full speed ahead ;) . With a wagon, if they stop against a tree, there ain't no airbag.

I guess I look at it this way. If a horse bucks you off, do you sell it right away or get back on? Any horse that has your number, and knows it, is going to try again, especially the green ones. Is it the horse's fault?

If your confidence is shot w/ this team, how do you carry onto the next, knowing it can potentially happen again?



amdfarm, as I mentioned to Cartfall, I've been riding for a long time. Bucked off ALOT of times. When a horse is started under saddle, I'm usually the first one on them. I've never been hurt. I get right back on again. No, it's not the horse's fault. Generally it's the person's fault. I know that this was driver fault. However, two horses who run can be alot harder to control than one. Also, I've got a pretty good seat, and as long as I stay on the horse, one they stop, I can regain control by doing circles, figure 8's. The ride ends with me having control of the horse.

On a drive that ends in a wreck, when that stoneboat, sleigh, wagon, etc, is untangled from the tree, fence, ditch, etc, I can't drive them away before the damage to harness, equipment is fixed. Therefore the connection isn't made after that hour, that running creates work. They got, instead, we ran, then we rested.

And, as for my confidence or lack thereof carrying over to another team...unfortunately, yeah, it does. I don't know if I want to drive anymore. My mentor said I was a natural. He said I had great hands. Now, though, I don't know. My confidence really has been shaken. I always thought that I was strong enough to catch a team at that first step. You know the one, that step right before running. And I have caught other teams at that step, before it became a runaway. Apparently, I'm not strong enough. And that scares me.

And Goodhors, I think I want a team broke by you. :)

[Ashemont]

Yes, the "Running W" is a trip line. <snip> this old technique was used during the eras when horses were the sole means of transportation and HAD to be "broken".

The Running W was also used in the old cowboy movies for scenes where the horses had to fall down. Like many inhumane practices it was finally outlawed but not before many horses were seriously injured or killed :no:

[amdfarm]

Is a running w a trip line? A couple men I know want to try this technique on the team. They figure that cause I'm a "skinny little girl", and I've got no weight behind me, I couldn't hold the mares.

amdfarm, as I mentioned to Cartfall, I've been riding for a long time. Bucked off ALOT of times. When a horse is started under saddle, I'm usually the first one on them. I've never been hurt. I get right back on again. No, it's not the horse's fault. Generally it's the person's fault. I know that this was driver fault. However, two horses who run can be alot harder to control than one. Also, I've got a pretty good seat, and as long as I stay on the horse, one they stop, I can regain control by doing circles, figure 8's. The ride ends with me having control of the horse.


Need4speed... Yes, it's essentially a foot rope on both front feet instead of one. When rigged correctly it makes a "W" under the horse.

I'm also a "skinny little girl" (5'2", 115lbs) and it doesn't mean squat when there's a runaway. If they're going to run away, size doesn't matter. A horse that's well trained should stop w/ very little pressure on the mouth or you'd never see kids riding or driving. I've seen BIG men not be able to stop a runaway. You can regain control of a runaway the same way you if you were astride, circle until they stop. I've taught all my horses to one-rein stop and it works under saddle and while driving. It's all part of whoa training. Handy if you drop/break a rein or line, just turn their head w/ the one you've got and they stop to allow you to pick it up.

Yes, runaways do happen, equipment breaks, etc... you have no choice to start over again.

Draft horses can run a long ways when they're on a mission to get away from whatever it was to cause it. It's a natural response. Had a team go over a mile once when equipment failed and they spooked. There's nothing you can do, but be prepared and do your best to re-establish the trust and confidence again.

All risks that we take everyday working w/ horses. Anything can happen.

[horseyfolks]

I don't know much about a lot of what y'all get talking about but this I KNOW about..... I keep hearing this BS line about how you little itty bitty girls don't have the strength to stop a runaway team. Well, guess what? Anyone who knows me will tell you I'm not a little itty bitty anything. I'm 6' 5'' tall and weigh close to 400 pounds. I have a LOT of upper body strength. Doesn't mean squat.... when I had a runaway with a single horse I had about as much chance of stopping him with the reins as a snowball has in hell.

It's got nothing to do with size... when they run they run.

Don

[kearleydk]

N4S: Going a little off course and looking self serving, may I suggest stepping down to smaller horses to rebuild your confidence?

You can have a lot of fun with much smaller animals, and while they are ALL too strong to stop if they run you will FEEL more in control.

I bet the are people on this forum who can tell tales of minis running.

Just food for thought.

[jerry]

All things in moderation. It's a tool, and would have to be properly used. A running W can be used only to break the stride, not necessarily the neck. And a runner under harness would likely do the same under saddle., making him worthless to me. Selling him fixes my problem, not his. Dropping him, if it comes to that, may be his last chance before the kill pen. I wouldn't sell anyone a horse that is dangerous. And a runaway being turned in circles while hooked is an interesting picture. Maybe in an 80 acre field. Sure as hell not on the road. And just as you can't stop a draft if he don't want to, you won't turn one either. A runaway under saddle showed me that. I can bend a quarter horse, never had a chance on the big one. Sometimes the end justifies the means. I have a lot of kids, their safety is light years more important to me than the horse's. I'd drop him in a heartbeat if it'll work. Maybe getting busted up real bad changes the way I see it. Not the same as a close call.

[Need4speed]

Hey Don, I know that driver size doesn't matter, and you know driver size doesn't matter, but in my neck of the woods if the men haven't had a bad runaway, they figure they're big and strong, they would have stopped it.

My mentor used to set it up, when a customer would come to pick up a team, or someone was coming to look at one, I would happen to be driving them when they came out. So of course, their attitude would be, if that bitty girl could drive them anyone can.

Jerry, I agree about the circling to stop. It's not often that I'm just driving in a large field. Usually it's along bush trails, roads, doing chores around the farm. Not so big an area to do the circle. It's great in theory, but I don't often find myself in the situation where it could be used.

A while back, I had a runaway with a team where I (for a little while) had hold of only one line. I had been driving only for a couple months at this point. I was bringing the team in after harrowing in the field. The team was hooked up to the harrows, with the harrow cart behind that. The lines were too short to begin with, when I turned them, I had to make sure that the ends didn't slip through my fingers. Coming off the field, another set of harrows was hidden in tall grass. Didn't see them. My harrows got caught on them, almost upset the cart, one of the lines yanked out of my hand. I still had a good hold of the other one. Were those horses gonna turn? Not on yours, or my life. They got scared, and they were just looking for a way out. I got tossed off the harrow cart (lucky for me) They ran through the farm yard (thank God missing cars) One line got caught on a bale wagon--didn't even make them miss a step--tore the line. They kept going, through a closed gate, and finally stopped at an incredibly heavy steel gate, closed with a 2 inch bolt. The harrow cart was bent to heck, but with regular work, this team became one of the more dependable teams there. My point was, I couldn't turn them with one line. If they're scared enough, they feel nothing. The only thought in their brain is to get the heck out of dodge.

[amdfarm]

As I said, size doesn't mean squat. And I should have said *try* to gain control of a runaway or when it first starts to feel like you're going to lose control. If it's already started, you're right, it's too late, and location matters.

The dropping of a rein/line was an example for use of the one-rein stop, not necessarily a runaway when so many others things are combined.

My friends can tell a lot of stories about their draft pony runaways/wrecks from single to 6-up in training and showing.

I do hope you're able to get your confidence back up.

[Ashemont]

Ok guys... you're really scaring me here. My horses have always been famous for their good brakes and you can believe I'm going to be doubly sure that Phoenix's are working well!

A runaway horse u/s can be frightening but I've only had one that I couldn't stop - and that was WAY back when I didn't know near as much as I do now. A horse - or horses - running away with a vehicle behind with me in it? Don't even want to think about it!

Bill has talked about having to run them into a tree sometimes but thank goodness he never had to do that with Phoenix. Phoenix would 'scoot' on occasion but always came back into the hand. Again, u/s I like my horses very light in the bridle and so Phoenix is very responsive to the rein.

The only runaway I saw up close and personal was a team - can't remember if it was 4 or 6 horse - pulling an incredible restored vehicle that was worth BIG bucks. They were at the Pinehurst Harness Track for a show and the horses took off. Totally destroyed the carriage but not before tearing up a good part of Pinehurst #2 - the golf course where they hold the Open and where they charge you $25/hoofprint if you get a horse on it!

Please tell me the stories where your horses ran and things turned out OK.....

[amdfarm]

Never had a person or horse get hurt from a runaway from equipment failure (implement) and/or spook, including ones that have flipped onto their sides from having their feet pulled out from under them by the tugs/traces or tongue. I've been driving for 16 years and have only experienced one runaway as a driver (single to 4-up/abreast), but have witnessed many and seen wrecks. They're not pretty, but all in all everyone comes out okay.

[Need4speed]

Amdfarm, thanks for your good wishes. I am still driving around the farm, doing chores, that kind of thing. Last summer, I had begun to do some driving competitions. I really loved it, and did pretty well agains some of the old-timers, and people with years more experience than I. I just don't know now, though, if I want to go back. Maybe I'm better off just sticking to riding. I was hoping to use this team in the competitions...obviously that's out. It's tough also to buck against the attitude of some of the younger guys that feel that if they had broke the team "it would have been done right". I feel real discouraged. Yes I know I sound a bit whiney, and self pitying. I'll get over it soon. Thanks for putting up with it.

[amdfarm]

Don't let the egos of your younger male counterparts get to you. They don't know if it would have happened w/ them or not and if they're so good why don't they "fix" them? Not all horses can be BROKE in 6 drives, besides what's the rush? Glad to hear you're still driving. Bump that confidence back up and don't give up. Kick some butt in those competitions again this summer and prove to yourself and those guys that you've got what it takes. Just remember, we all had to start somewhere.

[Cartfall]

Pat,

It goes with the territory. All you can do is always always think safety, be aware of what is around you, never release you reins (not a slam on N4S), and train your horse to whoa. This does not guarantee you will not have one. I had one in a mare with many miles on her, she got in that blind panic mode (through my own stupidity on hitching wrong). When they leave, there is not much you can do except try to ride it out as has been suggested.

Not many of us have never had a runaway. My email moniker has been richly earned.

Continue to enjoy your driving--just with a little angel sitting on your shoulder watching.

[Need4speed]

Hey Jerry, you have a PM.

[Ashemont]

OK Cartfall. I guess it's like one of my favorite sayings about riding "If you've never been thrown then you haven't ridden much"

I am blessed with a trainer who REALLY puts safety first and I have a horse with a super temperament and mind. I am always very safety-conscious when riding and so I think that will carry over to driving. If I leave the driving to Joe (who seems to be taking over anyway) then I can keep my fingers crossed, huh? :D

[LostFarmer]

I have been unable log on for a couple of weeks and you all have had way too much fun with this topic.

I have had a couple of runaways with my team. One was a momma pheasant that flew up under thier feet. I was more shook up than the horses. My mentor hadned me the lines to his old steady team and let me retrain my self while he worked my team.

We seperated the horses and worked them single for several days. Then as teams with a breaking horse. When we put them back together both were nervous and they keyed off of that energy from each other. I have a tire of education that is heavy enough that while they may run they won't run far. I spent 20 to 30 minutes every time I hitched with the tire to help them get their minds into the game. Similar to lounging a horse before riding. A tired horse is a horse that is ready to listen.

I feed cattle with my horses and they have to be able to stand while I load or open gates. I leave the tugs loose enough that I can back them a half step and wrap the lines up and walk away. If they want to leave town it will be pulling the vehicle with the lines. I don't have the option of a second person most of the time so as a team we had to figure out the drill.

One time they thought the sleigh was loaded but I still needed 4 more bales. I got on and we drove until they were VERY happy to stand and listen. I drove back to the stack and finished the load. My horses are of the undterstanding that whoa is a good thing because work is the alternative.

The second run away was when I forgot the throatlatch on one horse. The bridle came off and I had little control. I managed to steer them into some soft plowed ground. I was looking for a soft landing if I had to abandon ship. The wagon in the soft ground had a calming effect and they eventually wanted to stop so we did a couple of more laps. When they heard whoa it was a reining stop that was made.

I guess the facts are that you need to get your confidence back at the same time as the horses regain theirs. Once you get where you can work them don't be afraid to make them sweat.

My mentor has a couple of phrases that he uses. "Horses, dogs, and kids, You can teach them anything but go." "Hard work makes good horses, dogs, and kids."

I was talking to my 86 year old grandfather. This is a man that worked horses to farm and ranch with until he was 35. He still works horses and breaks teams to be sold. He tells of having to work 12 head on a ground leveler 4 of which had never been hitched. They had them hitched 4, 4, and 4. They balky horses went on the wheel. The newbies in the swing and the run aways on the lead. By the end of the week those horses were broke. It wasn't an option to say this horse doesn't like to work. The option was killer or productive citizen.

Sorry for the ramblings. Good luck, LF

[Ashemont]

I'm not worried about any birds flying up between my horse's legs - I have guinea hens and they are great for de-spooking. I'm also not worried about motorcycles, tractor-trailers, helicopters or planes - our quiet country road is sometimes used as a drag-strip, there is a very busy salvage yard so lots of truck traffic, and we're on the flight path from Fort Bragg to Camp Makall. MY horses 'spook' for fun ;) And then there's that danged 'warmblood spook'. You know, "There really IS a gremlin behind that bush and even though I've gone past it 20 million times with no problem THIS might be the time when he'll come eat me!"

So can someone tell me about the tire thing? Do you just drag it behind your cart? Anyone have pictures?

[jerry]

Oh, KM has a few pictures.........

[Need4speed]

LostFarmer, what is your opinion of my mares? Are they ruined forever as a team, or can they become safe? That first day, they ran three times. The first, as explained, the second, as they were being hooked again, and the third, when I got my hands on them in the field, they just took off again.
The next time they were driven again, is when I had the wreck in the bush, and ran them into a tree and hurt my knee.
The last time, was after following someones (not someone on the forum--just before I posted here) advised me to ground drive them in an enclosed area, like the barn. They dragged me down the aisle. That was the last time I harnessed them.
So, do you think the tire of education can fix them? Or, will they run, as soon as the load gets light, or when they're fresh. I would appreciate any advice you have.
Thank you

[LostFarmer]

To be honest I don't think the mares are ruined. I do think they need to be worked single and driven single. I mean a BUNCH of time single. Then with a different horse shown the theory of the wet collar. Not just once a week but at least once a day and possibly twice a day. Then and this is a ways away they could be put back together. You need to gain their trust and they yours. The tire of education is not an end all cure all. It is simply a training aid.

A friend has a forecart built out of a semi trailer axel. He has knobby tires filled with fluid in them. When he locks the brakes it slams the tounge into the ground. Can a team drag this? Oh yea, but they won't do it with much enthusiam for very long. It turns into work in a hurry. LF

[Flipsmom]

I have seen runaways successfully retrained. It's a matter of the driver having confidence in the horses training..not the horses fault.

[Need4speed]

Well, I guess at this point, for my mares at least, it's a moot point. Someone who is completely aware of all that has happened with them gave me a good offer on them, which I took, and as of right now, they're sold. (Provided he doesn't change his mind-which apparently he's done before)
I sure have learned alot though. From all of you, I have learned that rushing training sure doesn't save you anything in the long run. I also think that I was, and still am, too inexperienced to take on the training of a completely unbroke team. I still plan on participating in the driving competitions this year, but I'll be borrowing a very well broke, experienced team.
I want to thank you all for your great advice. On some of the other forums, people are quick to judge and criticize. You all jumped right in with helpful advice and encouragement, and I want you to know that I really appreciated it. I was nervous, in fact to post. I thought that I would get all the things I did wrong, what I should have done, but instead, you told me what I should do from this point on. For that I thank you. :)

[kearleydk]

N4S Thank you so much for that last paragraph.
You are completely right on how folks on this group treat each other. I tend to pipe right up and have IMMEDIATELY been slapped down on another driving forum. I delete most of what comes thru on that one and rarely post.

I'm glad this group hangs together on-line and if I NEED to be slapped down I can handle it. :-)

[Cartfall]

N4S--- Here is a pair of cross fingers for your successful sale.

Yes this is a great site for actually getting questions answered without getting blasted. No drama queens on this forum!!!

[MySparrow]

Hi, I'm new here and I apologize for chiming in without introducing myself. I would be grateful if someone would tell me what a running W is?

Also, in the case of the runaway mares, I wondered if there were no brakes on the vehicles they are put to? Would good brakes applied judiciously help sort the mares out and teach them not to run?

Many thanks!

Dale
Wind Child Farm

[Thomas_1]

Brakes on a carriage are nothing to do with stopping a horse.

Brakes are to hold the weight of the carriage off the horse - so its basically an added device aside from the britching and are to be used when the carriage is doing such as going downhill or when the traces become slack and the carriage is running on.

If you apply the brakes, even with a pony on the front of a carriage, then the pony will just drag the carriage.

Today I've just taken posession of a 4 wheel flat bed cart which I'm repairing the wheels of: putting new clincher rail and tyre tube on. The cart was restored and had disc brakes put on which were faulty and stuck on. The pair of horses carried on though and pulled the cart with its locked brakes and pulled all the tyre off the clincher rail.

Quite simply the original poster has a a collection of horses that have not properly been put to harness - they need to drive as individuals first and be responsive and only then should they be put together as a team and unless the driver is VERY experienced, a whole team of novice driving horses will indeed be a challenge.

He's doing the right thing selling them in my opinion. They aren't a lost cause at all, but they will need a heck of a lot of bringing on and experienced driving and training.

[kearleydk]

My,My, Mysparrow you did just join didn't you? Welcome. Pretty open minded group here so I'll tell ya what a runnning W is. Beware, it has a VERY bad reputation. It can throw any horse right on its nose in a flash but it can be used very gently as a training device.

Imagine a horse with saddle on. Run a light line through a ring on the saddle down to the left front foot. thread it through a hobble strap and back up to a ring on the bottom of the girth. From that ring down to a hobble strap on the right front foot. If you take up the slack in the line the horse will drop to its knees.

when I was shown the technique we did it in a very well prepared indoor arena with soft footing. We long lined the horse and I stayed in the middle of the circle with the W line. When the driver said "whoa" and tightened the lines I would GENTLY take up the slack in the W line with ONE HAND. I probably never exerted more than 2 pounds of pressure on the line. We did this only at a walk. the horse would only manage one or 2 steps after the "whoa" command before she started to stumble.

We repeated the drill perhaps 6 times. The horse never went to her knees but she KNEW she would if she continued.

The use or even mention of the W will get you in trouble with most horse people but if you review the posts in this thread you will find some pretty sane people who say they would use it as a last resort.

BTW That pair of Belgians that ran away with me has been sold and their owner sells any horse that runs away. Apparently the risk of a repeat performance is way too high.

T-1 is totally correct about the brakes. even in normal circumstances horses can drag vehicles with brakes locked. In a runaway panic, forgetaboutit. Sure, every little bit helps to slow them but they are still going either quite some distance before they tire or they are going to hit some immovable object. My Belgian runaway traveled over 1/2 mile before they stopped. I think God was looking out for us that day because men did not stop those horses.

[MySparrow]

Well, my goodness, that's one dramatic device, that running W. Thank you for explaining it to me.

I've had one runaway -- not the pony's fault. The breeching broke as we were going downhill, and I had no brakes and no way to stop the wagon bumping up against her. She went faster and faster, more and more terrified, as I tried to balance speed, hills and drag. I even stuck my foot on top of the front wheel but it quickly got way too hot (what's the emoticon for rueful grin?). Finally I came to an open lawn in front of a house and drove her in a sweeping half-circle so that she ran into the bushes along the dripline and the left shaft dragged on the house wall itself. I managed to straighten the bent shaft and mend the broken breeching temporarily, and drove her home. She was anxious for a while, but soon returned to happy work in harness. Guess I was lucky!

As for the brakes -- I do know that they're no match for frantic horses, but I thought that they might at least offer a little resistance to the runaway pair, particularly if pumped rather than jammed. Brakes certainly would have been an excellent thing to have in the situation I just described.

It is HOT here in Mississippi, and i've not long returned from a lovely drive with one of my students as active groom and two more as outriders on their favorite horses. The breeze was refreshing and we all came back full of joy. Why did I stop driving for so long?

Thanks for your reply!

Dale