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View Full Version : Pentosan: Side effects? And effective with the old ones?



mvp
Nov. 20, 2012, 07:43 PM
I'm up for trying Pentosan, but a couple of vets have been lukewarm about it.

They cite side-effects in horses. Like what?

And what are the differences in the physiological action of Pentosan vs. Adequan or any of the glucosamine-like things?

Many thanks

Laurierace
Nov. 20, 2012, 07:44 PM
The only side effects I have seen with my soon to be 25 year old is tearing around the field like a lunatic and playing halter tag constantly!

D Taylor
Nov. 20, 2012, 08:11 PM
Yes, horrid side effects in my old gelding too. He is a total jerk again and shaking his head in defiance as he gallops around the pasture and races with the 3yr and 4 yr olds. Oh I am also seeing issues with his hind end too. He seems to have trouble keeping his back feet on the ground and kicking up his heels seem to be a common/frequent occurrence.

Have not seen any ill/bad side effects personally. Tho I do have a friend that said Pentosan did nada for her horse but Adequan did help.

pony baloney
Nov. 20, 2012, 09:37 PM
My horse's side effect has been wanting to canter up a hill at the end of our one hour schooling session--he's 27! He's an Arab and suddenly wants to travel with his hind legs underneath him, making him round and un-Arablike.

Pentosan should be banned so these elderly equines can retire.

deltawave
Nov. 20, 2012, 11:51 PM
Only side effect I've noticed is my mare no longer stopping on XC. :)

Any drug could potentially cause an allergic reaction, but that's not really a "side effect".

Pentosan is related to heparin (an anticoagulant) chemically and can have weak effects on the clotting system, so a horse could theoretically be more prone to bleeding from some sort of cut or injury that might not bleed much otherwise in the day or two following a Pentosan injection. This effect is probably not much more than something in the "keep it in mind" category, as the dose is relatively small and the heparin-like effect quite a weak one.

mvp
Nov. 21, 2012, 12:19 AM
Thanks, deltawave.

Any clue to what this stuff does physiologically?

TBRedHead
Nov. 21, 2012, 01:23 AM
My horse will bleed at the site, just a small amount. His first shot I think we hit a nerve (did it ourselves, husband worked for vet for years), had an emergency call to the vet at 10pm because he wouldn't bear weight on the leg (Doh.) second time, horse puffed up (vet did it this time, neck that time), and was swollen. With each shot it went down, now he just bleeds a little.

But dangit, if my stupid horse doesn't go play tag with his 3 year old girlfriend after his shots!!

For reference, I was VERY against injections, but he was 21, and so lame he couldn't TROT, walking was difficult. What else did I have to loose? Hes such a 180 now, no one can believe that my fire-breathing Pegasus that's currently over jumping a simple 2' cross rail like its a grand prix jump, is the same horse. Same goes for when he and the *super atheltic* warmblood (gp prospect) baby go ripping around playing tag.

Side effect: making old horses feel 3.

horsepoor
Nov. 21, 2012, 01:25 AM
I'm curious about this as well. I sure haven't heard of any downsides, but have only had it suggested by one vet (who is very pro pentosan). But it is in my sights as a helper for one of my boys, so I'm starting to look into it more.

mvp
Nov. 21, 2012, 01:42 AM
OK, I hear stories of wildness.

But are these horses sounder or just hepped up on goof balls?

And how bad was the arthritis? With my old man, we are assuming that Adequan doesn't do much because there's not a whole lot of cartilage there left to fix.

D Taylor
Nov. 21, 2012, 07:29 AM
OK, I hear stories of wildness.

But are these horses sounder or just hepped up on goof balls?

And how bad was the arthritis? With my old man, we are assuming that Adequan doesn't do much because there's not a whole lot of cartilage there left to fix.

I think sounder is the correct answer. Chip has always been hot. It was sad to see him get stiff and act old. Weight started going the wrong way in a horse that had defined easy keeper even during hard work. The final blow in reality came when he walked slowly to the barn one afternoon with a huge bite on his side. See Chip never got bites...he gave bites. So I watched the next day in turn out and 2 young geldings started playing and play turned to pick on the former herd boss.

He had been getting Nsaids for the 3 previous winters but in summer seemed more himself....tho he did not act this good even in summer.

Hot, defiant, full of himself is in fact his normal. Several owners walked away from him before he became mine at 7yrs of age.

He acts like a couple decades have been knock off him. First thing I noticed at somewhere around 3 wks of the loading dose was he started stepping out with ease. He continued to improve for another5-6 mths.

I am not sure you can predict how Pentosan will help your horse based in that fact your are assuming type/amount of damage.

I can only say based on what I have seen in my horse and now my 3 dogs (as I have started 3 old dogs on it too) that I would not hesitate to try it again.

Chip is the gelding herd boss again. He shares that boss status again with the herds matron mare just like he has for over ten years. And those 2 younger geldings that thought it was so much fun to hassel him have been re-informed to watch their manners. Peace and structure ....he only need glance in their direction and they know better.

Laurierace
Nov. 21, 2012, 09:35 AM
My horse was never unsound but he is stiff and creaky in the beginning of a ride. The pentosan didn't take that away but he warms out of it quicker than without it. The best thing is he used to have his hocks injected twice a year but hasn't had it done in two years since starting the Pentosan.

deltawave
Nov. 21, 2012, 09:55 AM
Sounder in Bonnie's case. She is never a goofball or the type to play up. She just moves better and her eventing scores are lower, usually by 30 points! (take 5 off her dressage scores, subtract a rail in SJ and no more stops on XC!) Quite a tangible, numeric benefit, I'd say. :D

It is also ENTIRELY possible (and, in fact, likely) that part of this process of her feeling better is due to her hocks having fused over the past 18 months. Whether the pentosan helped that process or if it would have occurred on its own is unknowable. I am happy to keep giving her her monthly shot of Pentosan during show season. She won't be getting any for a while now because it's "down time" and we'll see how she feels come spring. :)

It works by actually modifying the cartilage, not as a "painkiller" or "anti-inflammatory" per se.

Not a scientific reference, but this is a decent review article from the Thoroughbred Times.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2012/01/18/pentosan-polysulfate-the-wonder-from-down-under.aspx

TBRedHead
Nov. 21, 2012, 10:24 AM
Sounder, ive known my guy a long time (before I purchased), and he's always been a firey red head thoroughbred.

candico
Nov. 21, 2012, 10:37 AM
It could be that the lukewarm vets have their business model in the back of their minds. Hock injections, even Legend and Adequan which they can mark up are better for profit margin than Pentosan which when compounded they are not supposed to mark up...
I've also seen huge soundness and fluidity improvement in several horses of varying age, yet some take more time than others to respond. I also think the improvements last far longer than other interventions. My vet says she has seen many big aged horses who are at the point of struggling to get up after recumbancy improve remarkably to the point where they jump up with ease.

D Taylor
Nov. 21, 2012, 12:28 PM
It could be that the lukewarm vets have their business model in the back of their minds. Hock injections, even Legend and Adequan which they can mark up are better for profit margin than Pentosan which when compounded they are not supposed to mark up...
I've also seen huge soundness and fluidity improvement in several horses of varying age, yet some take more time than others to respond. I also think the improvements last far longer than other interventions. My vet says she has seen many big aged horses who are at the point of struggling to get up after recumbancy improve remarkably to the point where they jump up with ease.

This.

Also my former vet whom I attempted to discuss pentosan with had never heard of it. Obviously he is now my former vet for the lack of service he gave me and the horse. Several friends of mine were already using it. All reported to me it was in general much better (results) and cheaper (than other treatment methods). They also told me to be prepared to use it for several months before I made my final choice. I asked my former vet for months about input about pentosan and other treatments. I also requested price quotes. I got excuses and whining from the office help.

Some old dogs just do not care to learn new tricks.:mad:

So I called out a different vet to see my old horse. He had never heard of pentosan either. I thought it rather odd as he is the local lameness "expert". But he did a brief internet search from his truck computer. Said he would do a bit of checking into it later that day. Also told me his office assistant would get me a price quote. By the next day I had the price quote, a general opinion from the vet, and his ok if I wanted to try it. And rest is a happy ending.

I do not believe in miracles. And I do know you just can not turn back the aging clock. But the short of the long is why not give my horse (any horse) affordable effective treatment. He carried me for 20 yrs and sometimes in rough terrain where other horses gave out. I am thrilled to watch him enjoy his retirement and maybe even sneak that occassional ride for old times sake in too.

Whether you decide to try pentosan or not is your choice. But I encourage to stay proactive and research pentosan....not to mention other treatments.

Mayaty02
Nov. 21, 2012, 12:32 PM
used it on an older pony last year and it definitely helped her, she was moving noticably better however she ultimately needed to be retired shortly thereafter so didn't improve her enough to keep her servicably sound for the job she had. That said, definitley noticed a freer more fluid moving happy pony after the loading dose.

D Taylor
Nov. 21, 2012, 12:53 PM
In case you have not seen it. For your viewing pleasure....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaRq7ZPcKeU

Rockabilly
Nov. 21, 2012, 12:59 PM
I'm with the others on side effects. My 32 year old foundered horse often thinks he can go cross country again.

impeggysue
Nov. 21, 2012, 02:06 PM
I use it on my 24 year tb mare. She was never lame, but started out stiff behind. She is much less stiff and warms up much quicker. With the help of Pentosan and the occasional use of previcox my mare is back to schooling third level and jumping training level. BTW pentosan was recommended to me by both my local vet and Kent Allen, both felt is was very benifical for horses with arthritis.

Mozart
Nov. 21, 2012, 02:16 PM
Hmm..can I get some for myself???

horsepoor
Nov. 21, 2012, 02:28 PM
Hmm..can I get some for myself???

That's a thought! Hmm...

mswillie
Nov. 21, 2012, 02:38 PM
This thread just helped me make my decision to put my horse on pentosan. He went lame in July and x-rays showed a chip in the ankle and some ring bone as well.

The chip was removed about 9 weeks ago and he's on the last part of his recovery which is a month of regular turn out and "go be a horse" therapy. The surgeon is optimistic about his recovery but did say that we might need to do some joint maintenance/injections periodically.

From what I've read here it sounds like the risk vs the benefit comes out mostly on the benefit side. I have a bottle that I got just a day before his surgery so I didn't start him on it. I'm going to start the loading dose this weekend. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed.

RAyers
Nov. 21, 2012, 02:52 PM
There have been 14 reported cases of bleeding since 2007. However, that is where the manufacturer has warnings as the risk of bleeding is directly associated with the dosage. Additionally, they do not recommend it for horses with bleeding issues.The company researchers stipulated that given the drug will cause increased risk in bleeding, it should not be administered within 24-48 hours of strenuous exercise where the horse is at risk for injury. After 48 hours, the anti-clotting effect wears off.

Details were at Biopharm Australia (the drug maker) but it is no longer available.

Vets are lukewarm because PPS is basically the same as Adequan in its function. Since it is not approved in the US for what you all intend, it can lead to liability and malpractice issues.

We don't get the risk information in the US as the compounding pharmacies don't actually have to do anything to prove efficacy or safety. Biopharm's work is based on studies done in Australia and Europe over the past 5 years.

Carried Away
Nov. 21, 2012, 03:09 PM
That was my vet's concern with it, the compounding issue. He is a well respected lameness/sport horse vet but is not a fan of Pentosan. I'd like to try it but am hesitant. Are you guys using PentAussie or just "pentosan"?

Is this similar to the MAP5 vs. Adequan issue?

TBRedHead
Nov. 21, 2012, 04:50 PM
I use PentAussie specifically.

Lucassb
Nov. 22, 2012, 08:52 PM
Several horses in my current barn are on Pentosan and seem to be doing really well on it. I would not hesitate to use it on a horse having issues with stiffness, difficulty warming up, and that sort of thing.

There is an FDA approved human version, called Elmiron. It's been around for years, although for an entirely different application.

Serigraph
Nov. 23, 2012, 10:48 AM
I have given it to two of my horses in the neck and both horses necks swelled up and got sore. Vet advised me to give it in the peck muscles or lower down on the neck near the junction of the shoulder. They didn't swell there. I did see improvement in one of my horses two with a known old fracture.

deltawave
Nov. 23, 2012, 10:59 AM
I never give injections > 1-2 cc in the neck..

flyracing
Nov. 24, 2012, 10:10 PM
I never give injections > 1-2 cc in the neck..

Why? Is there something written on this? Vets regularly give and advise to give doses of 20-30ccs in the neck with redirection every 5ccs or so. Removing the two sides of the neck when rotating daily medication such as a series of penicillin would seem to be be unfair to the horse and make them more sore in the remaining injection sites.

deltawave
Nov. 25, 2012, 10:37 AM
It is my own personal preference, that's all. :) God gave the horse vast tracts of muscle (hamstring, pectoral) that are not as touchy and prone to making them stiff and sore. So I avail myself of that real estate, reserving the neck for vaccines and the like. :) Obviously I would use the neck if there were no remaining options, but IME neck injections seem to be disproportionately likely to make them sore and uncomfortable as opposed to similar-sized injections in the larger muscles. Maybe it's because the neck muscles are in use non-stop (whereas a horse can "rest" a hind leg) or the muscle sheets are thinner and touchier in the neck. In any case, I stated what I stated with no authority whatsoever other than my own personal way of doing it. :)

LuvMyRide
Nov. 25, 2012, 12:49 PM
This thread certainly helped convince me to give it a try on my 13 year old with pretty awful arthritis too.

Do you guys buy a vial and give it yourself each month? How much do you give each month? How much does it cost? I think I saw someone once say it's only $10 a month, but that doesn't seem right?

Laurierace
Nov. 25, 2012, 02:37 PM
It is given once a week for four doses then as needed. I pay roughly $26 per dose with shipping and give it myself.

deltawave
Nov. 25, 2012, 03:09 PM
I pay $160 for a 50 cc vial, which is enough for 8 doses for my big girl (6cc per dose). If I'm using it on one of my smaller ones it's only 5cc/dose so I get 10 per vial. So the cost is $16-20 per dose, and I know people can get it much cheaper (I've heard prices from $100-140 for the same size vial) but I have a standing Rx and so it's just easy for me to get it from the same place when I need it.

Yes, I give it myself but am extremely careful about cleaning the bottle top each time and since it's a multi-use vial I also clean the skin fastidiously before I inject and inspect the drug as I draw it up for any cloudiness or signs that it's contaminated.

LuvMyRide
Nov. 25, 2012, 03:19 PM
One of my best friends is a bet, when she gets home I'm going to have her check to see how much she can get it for (and then I'll give it myself). Horse is a little over 1000lbs, so I think I'll need the 6cc.

vxf111
Nov. 25, 2012, 07:25 PM
Just because a vet may not have heard of something or may not prefer a specific therapy doesn't mean that vet's all in it for the money of hock injections. Some vets just don't prefer Pentosan. Adequan is approved, bombards the vets with information, and vets are used to it/have good experiences. Doesn't make them just out to make a buck.

Watermark Farm
Nov. 26, 2012, 12:52 PM
Pentosan is related to heparin (an anticoagulant) chemically and can have weak effects on the clotting system, so a horse could theoretically be more prone to bleeding from some sort of cut or injury that might not bleed much otherwise in the day or two following a Pentosan injection.

I started two horses on it (a 22 year old and a 4 year old, both recovering from injuries) several weeks ago and both are feeling pretty good!

Just FYI, the older horse is due for joint injections and vet said to make sure he does not get Pentosan within 48 hours either side of the joint injections due to the slight anticoagulant effect of the drug.

I asked my vet about the differences between Pentosan, Adequan and Legend. He said they each work a bit differently and that one reason why one works for one horse and not another has to do with the type of inflammation. He likes Pentosan but said he thinks the best one-two punch comes with giving both Adequan and Legend together. Which is pretty expensive...

Watermark Farm
Nov. 26, 2012, 12:56 PM
Laurierace & Deltawave, where are you ordering your Pentosan from? My vet told me to stick with Pentaussie and not get the compounded kind from Wedgewood. Cheapest per 6cc dose I've found so far is $40/dose from HorsePreRace. Thanks!

deltawave
Nov. 26, 2012, 01:09 PM
Abba Vet. It is the Wedgewood product, however. I'm comfortable with it, and have weighed the risks and benefits. :)

Watermark Farm
Nov. 26, 2012, 01:43 PM
Abba Vet. It is the Wedgewood product, however. I'm comfortable with it, and have weighed the risks and benefits. :)

Thanks! I was thinking I'd order it from a compounding pharmacy but my vet said he is nervous about injectables coming from a compounding pharmacy. The cost from Abba is much lower than buying Pentaussie though, which sure makes it tempting.

Laurierace
Nov. 26, 2012, 02:52 PM
If my vet would write a script I would go to Wedgewood directly but he doesn't so I get it from Abba who gets it from Wedgewood. FYI Abba has been my vet for 20 years which is why he won't write a script to go elsewhere but I don't need one to order from them.

D Taylor
Nov. 26, 2012, 03:31 PM
Thanks! I was thinking I'd order it from a compounding pharmacy but my vet said he is nervous about injectables coming from a compounding pharmacy. The cost from Abba is much lower than buying Pentaussie though, which sure makes it tempting.

Did he mention why he does not like Ww compounded pentosan?

I too use the Ww compounded product. I too am comfortable using it.

vxf111
Nov. 26, 2012, 03:45 PM
I am also pretty happy, generally with compunded products but I did have a bad experience this fall. I ordered componded meds in powder form and measured it very carefully. At the end of the dose, I discovered I was 7 scoops shy. No way to know if they just left 7 scoops out or if the product settled (which meant all along I was perhaps giving a prior dose than directed because the settling caused each scoop to be more concentrated). No harm, no foul on this particular drug-- but it wasn't hugely reassuring to have that happen.

TheHorseComesFirst
Dec. 6, 2013, 08:14 AM
Hi I posted this on another board but didn't get much replies.

and YES, I already have a call into the vet for his opinion ( he just got back yesterday from vacation, so I might not have a answer until the after the weekend)

My Question: Has anyone Given PentAussie to their horse every 5-7 days for 8 vials instead of 4? (ex: 1 vial every week for 8wks)?

My horse has pretty severe arthritis in his knee.

I was thinking of giving him a longer/double duration loading dose (1 vials every wk for 8 wks)?

Thank You for any responses.

Laurierace
Dec. 6, 2013, 08:41 AM
My horse gets a shot every week.

TheHorseComesFirst
Dec. 6, 2013, 08:49 AM
oh, geeze lol.

I didn't even know I posted on an already existing topic! I thought I made my own. sorry! thanks for the reply!