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lightlee
Sep. 22, 2012, 05:00 PM
Hello - what is the best time of the year to give you horse a PowerPac? We are located in Deep South.

littlebaypony
Sep. 22, 2012, 05:16 PM
Best to do a fecal egg count first to ascertain whether your horse even needs worming. In the south fall ( after the first hard frost, when the flies are gone) and spring are best times for ivermectin or moxidectin based wormers. IF your horse needs worming in between, and not all do, Oxibendizol (Anthelcide EQ) is an excellent summer wormer because it's the best on the market (according to Dr. Pugh from auburn) for pinworms. If your horse is very wormy in the summer or winter the power pac would be appropriate. But, again, your best bet is to get a fecal egg count done so you know you aren't wasting you money and effort.

Simkie
Sep. 22, 2012, 05:24 PM
A power pak addresses ENCYSTED strongyles. Which are not going to show on a fecal because they are encysted.

I am curious to hear if there is a "best" time of year for a power pak. I just hit mine with one if a) they are new to me with unknown worming history or b) unthrifty despite everything else being "right."

Huh. The package insert actually does address timeframe:


Migrating Tissue Parasites
In the case of 4th stage larvae of Strongylus vulgaris, treatment and retreatment should be based on the life cycle and epidemiology. Treatment should be initiated in the spring and repeated in the fall after a six-month interval.

Optimum Deworming Program for Control of S. vulgaris: Optimum reduction of S. vulgaris infections is achieved by reducing the infectivity of the pastures. When horses are running on pasture, in temperate North America, maximum pasture infectivity occurs in October-December. If horses are removed from those pastures in January, pasture infectivity will decline to zero by July 1. Egg production of S. vulgaris is minimal from January through April, peaking in August and declining to minimal values in December.
Recommended Deworming Program:**

December 1, February 1, April 1, June 1, August 1, October 1.

The two treatments that are in bold type are the recommended periods when the 5-day treatment regimen for the control of the migrating larvae of S. vulgaris should be performed.

** For other areas in the world, retreatment periods for the migrating larvae of S. vulgaris may be different; consult with your veterinarian.

JB
Sep. 22, 2012, 08:23 PM
Best to do a fecal egg count first to ascertain whether your horse even needs worming.
The point of a Power Pack is to get encysted strongyles, which don't show up on a FEC


In the south fall ( after the first hard frost, when the flies are gone) and spring are best times for ivermectin or moxidectin based wormers.
Not all of the South gets a hard frost :)

But yes, Spring and Fall, either about 6months apart if you live where there is no freeze, or Spring-ish (March-May) and then after a good freeze if you get one, for each of those.

Moxidectin is best to use in the Spring because it doesn't kill dung beetles which are most active in Spring. Ivermectin kills them :( So, in the South where you need to be killing tapeworms twice a year, Quest Plus in Spring and Equimax in Fall is a good program to plan as the base


IF your horse needs worming in between, and not all do, Oxibendizol (Anthelcide EQ) is an excellent summer wormer because it's the best on the market (according to Dr. Pugh from auburn) for pinworms.
Ivermectin and moxidectin both treat pinworms quite well. But, if you do need to treat specifically for pinworms, then Anthelcide, as a 1.5x dose, would be a good choice if the horse doesn't otherwise need deworming (ie strongyles). That helps save the -ectins for when they're really needed.


If your horse is very wormy in the summer or winter the power pac would be appropriate. But, again, your best bet is to get a fecal egg count done so you know you aren't wasting you money and effort.
As per above, FECs don't see encysted strongyles, because they're encysted larva, not an egg-laying adult.

If you're constantly encountering a high load, then a Power Pack might be indicated to help clean out the "caboose" of the worm problem. But, if you have used moxidectin, then that's of little concern. It doesn't get the EL3 stage of encysted strongyles, but if there are any for it to miss, it's unlikely to be a significant issue, and you'd kill the resulting adults with the next -ectin.

However, that said, there is another issue with the Power Pack. Fenbendazole has a high, widespread resistance issue with strongyles, has for quite a while now, and as a result, encysted stronglyes are also becoming resistant to fenbendazole. You're much better off using moxidectin these days.

You CAN see if your farm/horses has strongyles that are not resistant to fenbendazole, if you start with a high enough FEC, use a single dose of fen, and 10 days later do a FECRT (FEC reduction test). Most likely you'll find a poor reduction, but there is a small chance you'll find something 90% or more and that will tell you fen still works on your farm.

You can do the same with pyrantel pamoate - still a big resistance issue, but not as much as fen, and you're more likely, though still not VERY likely, to find your farm is ok for that.

I actually just went through this and found that pyrantel pamoate still works well on strongyles on my farm :yes:

deltawave
Sep. 22, 2012, 10:03 PM
JB, when is your book on deworming coming out?! I will totally buy one. :)

Beentheredonethat
Sep. 22, 2012, 10:07 PM
I agree with delta. You know so much. I have to reread your posts a bunch of times to figure it out. Still not getting it all, but working on it. You DO need to publish something. You're way ahead of the curve.

That said, oh wise one JB, I was reading that maybe doing a PowerPac yearly is not such a good idea. As you said, resistance. In general, would you suggest doing one or not if you've got a good, thrifty horse with no indications?

JB
Sep. 22, 2012, 10:26 PM
Write a book? Gawd no LOL Maybe Cliff Notes :lol: I might be "ahead of the curve", but I'm behind the real parasitologists :D

A PP isn't necessary if you do regular FECs and do regular 2x/year deworming Spring and Fall, especially if 1 of those is moxidectin.

Horses and parasites fit that good ol' 80/20 rule - roughly 20% of horses account for roughly 80& of worm problems. Most horses deal with most of them quite well. It's tapes and bots that are ubiquitous in terms of needing treatment - horses just don't really develop immunity to them. So, you treat for those twice a year most places in the US, maybe once a year in some places that don't have botflies and/or just don't have much of a tapeworm problem.

If you've got a healthy looking and acting horse, and you're using at least ivermectin twice a year, and the FECs you are doing before those dewormings are clean, then it's self-evident there just isn't an encysted strongyle problem.

Let's look at this example:

Let's say you have a horse who test high for strongyles, so you deworm him with ivermectin. Because he tested high, in 12 weeks you'd really want to test him again to gauge his self-control level. IF there was a large encysted colony, cleaning out the adults with the ivermectin would have opened up the encysted guys to come out of hiding - they do that, tend to stay encysted if the body is already "saturated", and come out when the coast is clear :lol:

If that was the case, the 12 week FEC would again show a relatively high count. Deworm again, probably ivermectin, and do another FEC in another 12 weeks.

If that one is clean, then you know what you probably saw was an encysted emergence which matured to egg-laying adults. Additionally, the encysteds all/mostly emerged, you've killed the resulting adults, and you're good to go.

If that one is high, then you probably have a horse who just can't deal with strongyles very well, and you'll have to figure out a good program for him.

Make sense?

That's why a Power Pack on a regular basis, assuming you're following the 2x/year deworming, is largely unnecessary. And if one of those dewormings is with moxidectin, it's really unnecessary.

lightlee
Sep. 22, 2012, 10:29 PM
Last Fall I gave me gelding Equimax (Ivermectin/Praziquantel), Spring I gave him Quest (Moxidecting) and this Summer I gave him Anthelcide (Oxibendazole) since was rubbing his tail I thought he might have pinworms. He had a fecal last fall and the vet said he had a low count.

However, right now his coat does not look as good - his weight is good however. I was considering doing the Powerpac now and then following up with Equimax in early December. I was also going to have the vet pull a fecal next week.

What do you guys think about this? I am going overboard with worming? My comfort level with FEC results is a little suspect.

JB
Sep. 22, 2012, 10:41 PM
Why is your comfort level suspect? What is the history of FECs on this horse?

When in the Spring did you use Quest? Given that you used it in the last 6 months, it's highly, highly unlikely there is an encysted strongyle issue.

Before you used the Quest, it would have been a good idea to do another FEC. While you are building a history, doing a FEC before the Spring and Fall dewormings, which you're going to do anyway, is a good idea to see how they fared with out deworming all Winter and then all Summer.

After a time, knowing the FEC history, combined with your climate and management, you might choose to just do 1 FEC a year coming out of the season most likely to have allowed him to build a worm load. For example, horses who are kept in "mare motels", don't have real grazing, eat hay, have their pens picked daily, are at very low risk for most parasites, including strongyles and tapeworms.

When did you use the Anthelcide?

lightlee
Sep. 22, 2012, 10:50 PM
I gave the Quest on March 31st. The Anthelcide EQ was given July 29th. The FEC was done last fall, the vet said he did not see any worms. Planning to do another fecal next week.

So you would recommend do the FEC and then go from there based on the results?

My horse is kept in a pasture by himself. The pasture is picked time to time. Grass condition is OK. Very nice boarding facility but some of the other horse have had issues with worms.

JB
Sep. 22, 2012, 11:55 PM
I would wait to do a FEC until next weekend, or later. Oxibendazole is "good" for about 4-5 weeks, and you always want to wait 4 weeks, at least, after that "expiration" date (making it Sept 30), before doing a FEC to allow any testable worm population that's going to build, to build.

Assuming the result is clean, then after a good freeze, use Equimax.

Do you get a freeze? If so, about when?

lightlee
Sep. 23, 2012, 12:05 AM
It sometimes freezes in December/January

JB
Sep. 23, 2012, 09:59 AM
Ok, then I would do the Equimax about 6 months after the Spring Quest.

littlebaypony
Sep. 23, 2012, 08:44 PM
Excuse me for having posted the recommendations of Auburn University School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee School of Veterinarian Medicine and both of the local equine specialist veterinarians in my area. I'm new to this forum.

Eventer55
Sep. 24, 2012, 08:30 AM
Excuse me for having posted the recommendations of Auburn University School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Tennessee School of Veterinarian Medicine and both of the local equine specialist veterinarians in my area. I'm new to this forum.

No need to apologize, I think everyone is looking for the same outcome, just that the encysted was not addressed. BTW welcome to COTH (opinions R us):D:D:D

JB
Sep. 24, 2012, 08:52 AM
littlebay, the snark isn't necessary.

"local equine specialist" - there are plenty of those and most don't know nearly enough about parasites.

There are still plenty of Vet Schools who aren't up on parasite issues either, and continue to teach what *was* accurate 20 years ago.

When it comes to parasites (in addition to many other things), I prefer to deal with the facts, as anyone who regularly reads my posts on this can attest to. That is how I have learned most of my parasite information - facts: information from my vet who regularly attends parasitology lectures from those who are researching in the current world, scholarly articles that are recent and discuss effectiveness. I'll take that over an anonymous professor at a University.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304401711006686

Some specimens of Oxyuris equi regularly survive treatment with macrocyclic lactones, but it is uncertain whether this constitutes resistance or merely confirms the incomplete oxyuricidal efficacy of virtually all broad spectrum equine anthelmintics.

I can't even find a study that is recent and shows that oxibendazole is better than any of the -etcins, or pyrantel pamoate, or fenbendazole, in controlling pinworms. There isn't much in the way of recent studies on it to begin with, and the one I posted is from '11 but only talks about anecdotal issues with pinworms.

So, if you have a study that points to oxibendazole being "the best" for pinworms, I am all ears, as my internal info should be updated ;)