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View Full Version : Gee, no bumper bits...



Plumcreek
Sep. 15, 2012, 03:46 PM
http://www.pleasurehorse.com/latest-news/aqha-equipment-rules

sahqueen
Sep. 17, 2012, 09:10 AM
I think it's official that AQHA has lost their friggin minds...

First two questions that come to mind:

They can't enforce the hundreds of rules already on the books, so what makes them think that these will be any different?

Who is responsible for enforcing these rules? Show managers who are already getting pulled in a million different directions if they are doing their job correctly? Are shows going to have to now have a steward, which will increase the cost to exhibitors?

HappyTalk
Sep. 17, 2012, 09:24 AM
It will be interesting to watch the warmup ring at Congress.

Why would this be so hard to enforce? This stuff is prohibited at dressage shows and I don't recall a problem with enforcement.

Renae
Sep. 17, 2012, 09:25 AM
I wish the Arabian shows had the same rules. I have seen Arabian western pleasure horses being warmed up in a bumper bit with draw reins hooked between the front legs at U.S. Nationals (then switched to a regulation bridle just before the amateur got on and went into the ring).

I had no idea AQHA recognized shows were not required to have a steward on the grounds. All USEF shows do, and IMO that is how it should be, a person present on the show grounds with no other interest but enforcing the rule book.

sahqueen
Sep. 17, 2012, 09:49 AM
It will be interesting to watch the warmup ring at Congress.

Why would this be so hard to enforce? This stuff is prohibited at dressage shows and I don't recall a problem with enforcement.

Right now only a select handful of shows have a steward on the grounds paid by AQHA. That is where $4 of the AQHA Processing Fee paid per horse/judge at shows goes towards. (The other $1 is the Drug Testing piece of the fee) It will now have to become the Show Manager's job to police the warm up rings for this now illegal equipment. Bigger shows basically run 24 hours a day over 4-7 days...so that means more people have to be hired to fill this role during the show which will increase the costs passed onto the exhibitors.

When what allegedly happened at the Reichert Celebration recently with reportedly AQHA and NSBA stewards on the show grounds, what hopes do we have to police all of this at smaller shows that cannot afford the staff? A Show Manager cannot sit at a warm up pen 24/7 while the show is going on…and many shows have multiple warm up pens.

I guess all I see with this change is something that sounds good, but in real like is not totally enforceable…to me it would have made more sense to look at the rules already out there and find a way to enforce them rather than just add more.

Plumcreek
Sep. 17, 2012, 01:35 PM
I sent a letter to the Show Committee and Prof Horseman's Committee years ago that resulted in one Prof Horseman on the grounds at each show being asked to act as an 'exhibitors rep'. That was not exactly popular with the Prof Horsemen, as they had to grow a pair. But that is who should police their own shows and speak to people riding with illegal equipment.

My personal opinion is that AQHA needs to correct what is being placed at the shows (young horses being allowed to act like young horses, for starters) instead of making rules against all the little ways people achieve what is now being placed.

I would gladly pay a few dollars more to make it tougher on the abusive trainers. I wish AQHA would hire some of the battle-hardened USEF stewards along with the current ex and current judges newly approved as stewards, many of whom also still show and need to not make enemies. Sigh.

katarine
Sep. 17, 2012, 01:45 PM
When what allegedly happened at the Reichert Celebration recently with reportedly AQHA and NSBA stewards on the show grounds...

What allegedly happened?


if it costs a little more you can blame everyone who ever warmed a horse up in a metal bosal on a metal headstall in draw reins. At least padded horses are only ridden for about 20 minutes. The QHs get ridden and drilled into the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7ryGEljjz0&feature=player_embedded

BigBayHanoMare
Sep. 17, 2012, 04:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7ryGEljjz0&feature=player_embedded

What is this? What am I watching? Besides the obvious, of course ... I can't even fathom. When did trantering and not going forward become the "norm" for WP?

Wow. Just ... wow.

katarine
Sep. 17, 2012, 04:31 PM
That is a warm up pen at the 2011 Reichert Celebration. Disgusting.

that's the best name for it- Disgustering.

katarine
Sep. 17, 2012, 04:33 PM
And no one would ride like that if the results weren't WINNING.

Like Charlie Sheen.

WINNING.

aktill
Sep. 17, 2012, 05:07 PM
Videos like that are why I'm amazed that anyone is ever shocked at abuse stories coming out of the pleasure world (or TWH world etc). That's what's happening AT THE SHOW. Imagine behind the barn.

propspony
Sep. 17, 2012, 08:18 PM
Ugh! If you can make it through this whole video you've got a stronger will than I do.

http://horsetrainingchannel.com/clinics/free-training-lateral-exercises/

Watch the little 2 year old... poor filly.

But these are the normal training schemes for some trainers...

ccoronios
Sep. 19, 2012, 02:42 PM
Haven't looked at either video, but both seem to be addressing riding issues. What is AQHA doing about the stuff that [used to] goes on in the stalls/barn area?

Carol

Flash44
Sep. 19, 2012, 02:56 PM
I'm surprised as well that there is not a steward on the grounds at pointed shows. I don't understand all the pulling on the horse's mouth to get the head down. The trainer I ride with has the horses in the bridle with the head up in a normal position with a snaffle bit, as if you are doing advanced dressage or equitation type flat work (which we do). When you drop the head, the horse naturally wants to stretch his head down and out. If you are constantly yanking the horse's head down, it wants to pick it up.

VaqueroToro
Sep. 19, 2012, 04:19 PM
Watching the Reichert Celebration video makes me feel sore just watching those poor horses. :mad:

The problem with competing 2 - 3yr olds is that everything has to be a quick, mechanical fix instead of building up muscle in the youngster so he/she can properly carry their own body mass/rider weight.

This sh-t absolutely disgusts me. Why do the rated shows reward horses that look like they're going shovel their heads into the ground and collapse dead? Or reward crappy, unbalanced 4-beat canters where the horse looks like it's barely able to pick up and move its back feet more than an inch?

I get that WP is supposed to be slow -- its to show off how comfortable the horse is to ride (or at least that's what it used to be) -- not to show off how LAME you can make your horse look.

You can have slow, CORRECT, and collected by allowing the horse to use its full body and help him develop the carriage it takes to do so.

catknsn
Sep. 19, 2012, 08:22 PM
Ugh! If you can make it through this whole video you've got a stronger will than I do.

http://horsetrainingchannel.com/clinics/free-training-lateral-exercises/

Watch the little 2 year old... poor filly.

But these are the normal training schemes for some trainers...

Well, duh, that's Cleve Wells of broken-jaw-and-bloody-infected-spur-tracks fame. Who is surprised? Yet he is still a hero in the AQHA world and makes tons of money. AQHA is not trying to stop abuse - they are trying to hide it so that the public doesn't have a cow. The owners who put their horses with people like Cleve, who have a well documented history of horrific abuse, are to blame and they don't want anything to change.

propspony
Sep. 19, 2012, 08:41 PM
exactly! What's so sad is that these are his "toned down, acceptable" training methods.

Wellspotted
Sep. 19, 2012, 08:43 PM
Well, maybe dressage will have a further positive influence on western showing and teach them how to do bit checks. We have people at shows who do nothing but check the bit as the horse enters the arena. If we can have such a person at our local shows, surely great big Congress or whatever shows can get a volunteer who isn't under the influence of someone in "power" who has a hidden agenda.

I don't know why it's such a big issue. Get a volunteer to check each bit.

No big deal.

Now, if we could just get someone to do something similiar at Big Lick "celebrations" ...

Burbank
Sep. 19, 2012, 08:53 PM
bit checks are required at reining shows, they usually do a full bridle drop

and while it is very rare they can do bit checks at AQHA shows and they do have illegal bits as well

sahqueen
Sep. 20, 2012, 08:44 AM
At each AQHA show judges are required to drop bits in at least one class (rule 438a (11))...many times they pick one Western and one Huntseat class to check them.

katarine
Sep. 21, 2012, 01:10 PM
One of their top earning trainers, too.

Shirley Roth suspended...

from another forum and edited to protect the author:

Shirley did not show up for her gate call, and the owners of the horse went back to the stalls to find out why. She was totally packed up and leaving. When the owners realized their horse wasn't in the arena, they returned to the stalls, a confrontation occurred, and they took possession of their horse.The next morning, after rinsing off the adhesive and hair Shirley had painstakenly glued on the horse to cover up the evidence of her abuse, they went to the officials, and then took the horse to the vet trailer to have the abuse documented and treated.

sahqueen
Sep. 21, 2012, 01:52 PM
One of their top earning trainers, too.

Shirley Roth suspended...

[/I]

Just wondering your source that considers her a 'top earning trainer' in AQHA.

katarine
Sep. 21, 2012, 02:27 PM
How about the NSBA Top 100? That line was my comment, based on their stats.

http://www.nsba.com/showing/horse-and-rider-statistics/2011-top-100-open-wp-riders.html

She's in their top 40 for 2011.

Why did you question it? Just curious.

sahqueen
Sep. 21, 2012, 02:47 PM
I questioned because I am in the AQHA industry, and she is not someone who is really on the radar as being a 'top' exhibitor.

NSBA is a different beast...With more high $$ events, it is much easier to be on a 'top' 10, 50, 100 or whatever list with reference to $$ earned. I also believe that the list is cumulative, not just for 2011 as some of the names on the list have not been involved in the industry for several years.

The event in question was not an AQHA sanctioned class, but rather a $$ futurity class.

propspony
Sep. 21, 2012, 02:53 PM
Just wondering your source that considers her a 'top earning trainer' in AQHA.

Shirley Roth has been involved with/trained some of the best of the best. Vital Signs Are Good, Invest in Vital Signs, The Krymsun Kruzer, Cool Lookin Lady, Ona Impulse (now that one had quite the scandal as well...) and a lot of others.

Sad but true. Lovelovelove The Krymsun Kruzer. Very sad to find he went through her hands.

ccoronios
Sep. 21, 2012, 03:47 PM
At each AQHA show judges are required to drop bits in at least one class (rule 438a (11))...many times they pick one Western and one Huntseat class to check them.

Problem is when one warms up in one bridle and throws on another just prior to entering the ring. Used to happen frequently in some big H/J shows - all the hunters SHOWED in big, happy snaffles.

Carol

Renae
Sep. 21, 2012, 05:11 PM
Problem is when one warms up in one bridle and throws on another just prior to entering the ring. Used to happen frequently in some big H/J shows - all the hunters SHOWED in big, happy snaffles.

Carol

Yes, and when you have over 20 horses in the ring at the same time for one class (so probably at least the next two classes worth of horses in the warm up) as happens at the bigger shows it is near impossible to keep an eye on everyone as they warm up. Unlike at a dressage show where there is one person in the ring at a time, and if there are 2 or 3 rings doing tests simultaneously there might be 6-12 people in the warm up area.

katarine
Sep. 21, 2012, 05:35 PM
I questioned because I am in the AQHA industry, and she is not someone who is really on the radar as being a 'top' exhibitor.

NSBA is a different beast...With more high $$ events, it is much easier to be on a 'top' 10, 50, 100 or whatever list with reference to $$ earned. I also believe that the list is cumulative, not just for 2011 as some of the names on the list have not been involved in the industry for several years.

The event in question was not an AQHA sanctioned class, but rather a $$ futurity class.

Point well made. While she is not a big name in AQHA, and I have no idea how NSBA gathered their data to form their top 100 in 2011...she is not exactly some backyard podunk nobody. The horse in question is owned by an Australian couple. We can split hairs on whether or not everyone recognizes her in the halls of AQHA.

mvp
Sep. 24, 2012, 12:24 PM
A. What's a bumper bit? I watched the Richert video. That's not just shizzle that the riders are doing with their hends?

2. How do the WP people think that the "big moves" jerking they do outside of the show pen carry over to performance inside it? It seems to me that their horses in warm-up can't go 4 strides without some big micromanagement. And then those same horses spend, say, 7 minutes at all three gaits without visible aids during the class? What's the training philosophy here?


Ugh! If you can make it through this whole video you've got a stronger will than I do.

http://horsetrainingchannel.com/clinics/free-training-lateral-exercises/

Watch the little 2 year old... poor filly.

But these are the normal training schemes for some trainers...

And third (y'all can rev up the hate machine now):

What Wells explains in the video makes a ton of sense. It also relates directly to the problem that this discussion of keeping a horse slow and framed up without abusing the face.

Well's point is that if you teach a horse that it can never move forward without being soft in the hand *and* squatting on it's hind end, you won't have to fight with the bridle.

As I see it, all that lateral work before moving forward is about making sure that the hiney is working... even as you want a young horse to move so slowly and so low in front that he is invited to lean on his front end. Hate the WP frame and project, but if you are going to go there anyway, then there are better and worse ways to get it done.

Wells-- hateable to be sure-- isn't wrong about mentally teaching the horse what you want every time and *not* putting him in the wrong position so that you have to correct him with a big move later.

Renae
Sep. 24, 2012, 01:49 PM
Bumper bit http://www.sstack.com/Western_BitsCurbs_MullenLow-Port/FES-Bit-Western-Sweet-Iron-Mullen-Bumper/
It has a metal bar instead of a curb chain.

mvp
Sep. 24, 2012, 03:02 PM
Bumper bit http://www.sstack.com/Western_BitsCurbs_MullenLow-Port/FES-Bit-Western-Sweet-Iron-Mullen-Bumper/
It has a metal bar instead of a curb chain.

Yeow! That would hurt.

Now I get it. Thanks for the clue.

trubandloki
Sep. 24, 2012, 03:16 PM
Thanks for asking, I was wondering what a bumper bit was also.


I have limited experience showing Western. Have only done it at a few appy shows since my horse had western training before I bought him and it was part of my division.
I know I was asked to dismount (in line up) and drop my bit once at every show I attended (but this was quite some time ago).

Go Fish
Sep. 26, 2012, 12:47 PM
That bumper bit's been around since I was in diapers.

I dunno...I see some of the hardware on GP jumpers on the world stage and I don't see much difference. The stuff Eric Lamaze had on Hickstead comes to mind.

Some of the bits I see at H/J shows in the schooling area could rival a bumper bit. To single out western (read QH) shows for "cruelty" is like the pot calling the kettle black.

mvp
Sep. 26, 2012, 02:00 PM
That bumper bit's been around since I was in diapers.

I dunno...I see some of the hardware on GP jumpers on the world stage and I don't see much difference. The stuff Eric Lamaze had on Hickstead comes to mind.

Some of the bits I see at H/J shows in the schooling area could rival a bumper bit. To single out western (read QH) shows for "cruelty" is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Fair enough, and your are right.

And another thing!

IMO, folks who want to get and maintain a frame with direct contact have it easy. It's much harder to do in a signal bit. So I'm ranting at dressage purist in particular. There are plenty of ways to hurt horses (physically and psychologically) in a 'fat snaffle'. Oh, and when they find that that fails, they legalize Baucher bits.

gaitedincali
Sep. 26, 2012, 02:49 PM
Oh, and when they find that that fails, they legalize Baucher bits.

...and? It's just a snaffle, it has no leverage, no poll pressure, nada. Nothing to make it any harsher than any other allowed snaffle.

sahqueen
Sep. 26, 2012, 03:29 PM
...and? It's just a snaffle, it has no leverage, no poll pressure, nada. Nothing to make it any harsher than any other allowed snaffle.

Can you explain that...I cannot see how a bit with a fixed cheek does not include some poll pressure.

buck22
Sep. 26, 2012, 04:23 PM
Can you explain that...I cannot see how a bit with a fixed cheek does not include some poll pressure.

I'm no bit expert, but I actually had the same question a few years ago, and in my small little experiment it appears as if it doesn't because a real baucher isn't a fixed cheek, its a hanging cheek, nothing fixed about it, though it looks for all the world as if it is.

A hanging cheek, or baucher might have only a small little opening at top where the cheek piece of the bridle is put through, but its still a circular opening which allows the entire bit to turn freely if rein pressure dictates. Were the opening a slot instead of a round circle, the bridle cheek piece would be fixed. So when enough rein pressure were applied to to pull the bit it would pull down on the bridle cheek piece, likely creating poll pressure.

But because the part where you attach the bridle is round and open, and the part where you attach the rein is round and open, the bit can can move and rotate, not creating leverage.... despite looking like its designed to do just that.


These photos are very old and very terrible, but hopefully shows what I mean.

Here is a baucher with no rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3291.jpg

with moderate rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3293-1.jpg
you can see that while the top of the bit hasn't rotated in the bridle cheek piece, it appears its not fixed or pulling downwards either

and with much firmer rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3292-1.jpg
where you can clearly see the bit has lifted in the horse's mouth, releasing pressure on the bridle entirely.

While I don't think this is conclusive evidence that *all* bauchers lift when pulled upon, I do think it illustrates that the bit is able to operate independent of the bridle because its not fixed.


I also did the same with a full cheek with keepers. I didn't have keepers handy so I used a bit of bailing twine :lol:

here is the bit in neutral
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3279-1.jpg

with moderate rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3286-1.jpg

and then increasing rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3287-1.jpg
where you can see the cheek piece of the bridle bending at the point where the keeper ties it in because the bit can't rotate (its fixed by the keeper), I presume its applying poll pressure at this point

and then even more pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3288-1.jpg
where despite the terrible photo, its very obvious the cheek piece is being pulled and distorted because it can't rotate.





*No horses were harmed in the making of this experiment and were completely comfortable with hamming it up for the camera for extra goodies when done:lol::lol:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3285-1.jpg

gaitedincali
Sep. 27, 2012, 02:49 AM
Can you explain that...I cannot see how a bit with a fixed cheek does not include some poll pressure.

Buck22 is right on the money. Pull on the reins with a baucher hard enough and the bridle cheekpieces will actually go slack enough to show daylight between them and the horse. If you add a curb strap up at the bridle loop, then and only then would the bit have a point at which it 'stops' and starts to pull down on the bridle creating poll pressure, albeit very little because your functional 'shank' is almost nil. Your just pulling the whole bit back, not making it pivot.

runwayz
Sep. 30, 2012, 12:04 AM
So to the ones who think harsh bits are cruel in GP jumping vs western pleasure, you try guiding a balls out horse over 15 5 ft jumps! Can't even compare to a walk jog lope around an arena. And many of those jumpers are schooled on the flat in...ready...a snaffle! Sorry, not trying to be snarky, but really no comparisan.

Bluey
Sep. 30, 2012, 09:06 AM
So to the ones who think harsh bits are cruel in GP jumping vs western pleasure, you try guiding a balls out horse over 15 5 ft jumps! Can't even compare to a walk jog lope around an arena. And many of those jumpers are schooled on the flat in...ready...a snaffle! Sorry, not trying to be snarky, but really no comparisan.

:lol:

Not always, I never rode jumping horses in any other than a standard old type D ring snaffle in continental Europe, is all we had and sure made do fine.
Never even seen twisted wire or any other, pelhams about the other option as a curb and really, when a horse is jumping, you need a bit better direction control than pelham's give, more than extra stopping power, that comes from training.

Then, many more riders with less trained or more difficult horses can show today being aided by all kinds of bit options.

I am sure there were some horses our snaffle didn't really fit that well, but we all made do, horses and the humans riding them.

I do agree, a well trained western pleasure horse should not get on the muscle as a jumper can over the larger courses and going for time.:eek:

VaqueroToro
Sep. 30, 2012, 04:34 PM
*No horses were harmed in the making of this experiment and were completely comfortable with hamming it up for the camera for extra goodies when done:lol::lol:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3285-1.jpg

Thank you for the education, buck22, and for the hamming-it-up shot! :)

mvp
Sep. 30, 2012, 07:35 PM
I'm no bit expert, but I actually had the same question a few years ago, and in my small little experiment it appears as if it doesn't because a real baucher isn't a fixed cheek, its a hanging cheek, nothing fixed about it, though it looks for all the world as if it is.

A hanging cheek, or baucher might have only a small little opening at top where the cheek piece of the bridle is put through, but its still a circular opening which allows the entire bit to turn freely if rein pressure dictates. Were the opening a slot instead of a round circle, the bridle cheek piece would be fixed. So when enough rein pressure were applied to to pull the bit it would pull down on the bridle cheek piece, likely creating poll pressure.

But because the part where you attach the bridle is round and open, and the part where you attach the rein is round and open, the bit can can move and rotate, not creating leverage.... despite looking like its designed to do just that.


These photos are very old and very terrible, but hopefully shows what I mean.

Here is a baucher with no rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3291.jpg

with moderate rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3293-1.jpg
you can see that while the top of the bit hasn't rotated in the bridle cheek piece, it appears its not fixed or pulling downwards either

and with much firmer rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3292-1.jpg
where you can clearly see the bit has lifted in the horse's mouth, releasing pressure on the bridle entirely.

While I don't think this is conclusive evidence that *all* bauchers lift when pulled upon, I do think it illustrates that the bit is able to operate independent of the bridle because its not fixed.


I also did the same with a full cheek with keepers. I didn't have keepers handy so I used a bit of bailing twine :lol:

here is the bit in neutral
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3279-1.jpg

with moderate rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3286-1.jpg

and then increasing rein pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3287-1.jpg
where you can see the cheek piece of the bridle bending at the point where the keeper ties it in because the bit can't rotate (its fixed by the keeper), I presume its applying poll pressure at this point

and then even more pressure
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3288-1.jpg
where despite the terrible photo, its very obvious the cheek piece is being pulled and distorted because it can't rotate.





*No horses were harmed in the making of this experiment and were completely comfortable with hamming it up for the camera for extra goodies when done:lol::lol:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c54/buck1173/the%20great%20bit%20experiment/IMG_3285-1.jpg


I appreciate the educational pictures!

They do make the difference in action between that baucher and a full cheek clear.

But it looks to me like the bit and cheek pieces of the baucher remain in allgnment under "moderate" pressure because the horse has dropped well behind the vertical.

Looking at the full cheek vs. the baucher where there is some rein pressure and asking what the bit does with respect to the cheek pieces, I think I have an answer:

I think both bits exert some pressure on the poll. I think they also move up to the corners of the horse's mouth if you keep pulling. But the "action"-- the speed with which the bit does this when you pull or lets go when you offer rein-- is probably slower with the baucher. It's the loose ring on the baucher that does it. Also, I have seen longer "stems" connecting the ring of the bit to the cheek piece. IMO, the longer the stem, the more poll pressure the bit exerts for the same amount of pull on the reins.

Oh, and back in the day, you could find loose-ring full cheeks. To me, those bits don't have many uses. The side of the full cheek might push the horse's head around for steering, but you'd lose the effect on the poll/corners of the mouth.

I hope this makes sense.

Fillabeana
Sep. 30, 2012, 09:43 PM
Oh, and back in the day, you could find loose-ring full cheeks. To me, those bits don't have many uses. The side of the full cheek might push the horse's head around for steering, but you'd lose the effect on the poll/corners of the mouth.

MVP, do you mean a Fulmer snaffle?
http://www.littletreesaddles.com/bits.htm
(Look down three or four pics for the Fulmer)

I like these, though I haven't ever used one with keepers, and the old one I have in my tack box isn't light or hollow mouthed, it's pretty heavy. (The only ones I've seen for sale in the US for the last few years, have been hollow mouth Fulmer snaffles.) But a lot of horses like my old bit, as long as they have some room inside their mouth for a single joint snaffle. I've had more horses go well in my old Fulmer snaffle than my basic eggbutt. It is great for lateral stability, but still pretty mobile in their mouth to keep them soft. I especially like it for starting a colt.

mvp
Oct. 1, 2012, 01:07 AM
MVP, do you mean a Fulmer snaffle?
http://www.littletreesaddles.com/bits.htm
(Look down three or four pics for the Fulmer)

I like these, though I haven't ever used one with keepers, and the old one I have in my tack box isn't light or hollow mouthed, it's pretty heavy. (The only ones I've seen for sale in the US for the last few years, have been hollow mouth Fulmer snaffles.) But a lot of horses like my old bit, as long as they have some room inside their mouth for a single joint snaffle. I've had more horses go well in my old Fulmer snaffle than my basic eggbutt. It is great for lateral stability, but still pretty mobile in their mouth to keep them soft. I especially like it for starting a colt.

Yeah, a Fullmer snaffle!

I remember them being very heavy. I never knew what people used them for. Thanks for the info.

findeight
Oct. 1, 2012, 11:51 AM
Pretty late on here and back to the original topic...

I hung the Western spurs up about 30 years ago and the exact same discussion was taking place. Promises that the new judging criteria insisting on the poll no lower then the withers and freer, more forward movement with a 3 beat canter would fix it all.:sleepy:

Stop pinning what the stuff creates and it will go away. Keep the peanut rolling 4 beat tranter pinning on top and they will find a way to pervert what comes naturally to create it. Don't have to pay a steward for that either.

I'm not holding my breath here.