PDA

View Full Version : Western - Reversing Direction



SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 10:14 AM
Turn on the haunches or small circle?

Any western judges out there who would care to comment on this?

bluemooncowgirl
Aug. 9, 2012, 10:35 AM
It's my understanding a turn on the haunches away from the rail is preferred.

Disclaimer: I have taken the open show judges class but did not sit for the final test.

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 10:44 AM
So you may have failed that question? ;)

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 10:46 AM
I thought so too; however, some western trainers in my area say small circle. A halt then turn on the haunches is technically a break in your gait.

Tamara in TN
Aug. 9, 2012, 10:48 AM
I thought so too; however, some western trainers in my area say small circle. A halt then turn on the haunches is technically a break in your gait.

why would you reverse at gait ? the reverse is almost always preceded by a halt,and then the better trained horses would plant a pivot foot and come around

Tamara

bluemooncowgirl
Aug. 9, 2012, 10:59 AM
So you may have failed that question? ;)

I've ridden enough turns showing in the WP pen to make up for missing the question! ;) I've heard judges say a turn on haunches is their preference, but I've seen them pin all sorts of "WTF".

bluemooncowgirl
Aug. 9, 2012, 11:00 AM
why would you reverse at gait ? the reverse is almost always preceded by a halt,and then the better trained horses would plant a pivot foot and come around

Tamara

:yes:

Tamara in TN
Aug. 9, 2012, 11:01 AM
perhaps them that support the "small circle" can't figure out a pivot foot ? ;>

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 11:40 AM
why would you reverse at gait ? the reverse is almost always preceded by a halt,and then the better trained horses would plant a pivot foot and come around

Tamara

That is my question. IS the turn on the haunches the correct way?

The break in gait refers to the fact that your horse is walking, and the judge calls for a reverse in direction. By halting, you discontinue the walk and halt, without direction to halt. Therefore, you would continue walking (unable to do a turn on the haunches) and travel in a small circle in order to switch directions.

I always thought it was turn on the haunches, but today I was speaking with two top of the line western pleasure trainers who have clients who show adn place well at Congress. One of them said that at the QH shows, you will not place if you halt and turn on the haunches, because they now consider the halt a break in the gait (you stopped without being told to stop).

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 11:42 AM
but I've seen them pin all sorts of "WTF".

THIS is a true statement!

I have always felt that just because there may be 6 riders in a class, doesn't mean the judge has to give out all 6 placings! ;)

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 11:49 AM
The AQHA Youth World Show is live streaming right now, and its the western pleasure finals class.

http://www.aqha.com/Home/Showing/Youth%20World/Stream/Norick%20Stream.aspx

bluemooncowgirl
Aug. 9, 2012, 12:30 PM
I have always felt that just because there may be 6 riders in a class, doesn't mean the judge has to give out all 6 placings! ;)

Exactly. And sometimes the placings are from "well-it's-the-best-of-the-worst" to "OH DEAR LORD..." That's one of the biggest reasons I didn't sit for the exam. Until the WP world wakes up and realizes how stupid and unnatural the movements look, I'm doing my part to not perpetuate the madness. But I digress.

Maybe a real judge will pipe in and solve the mystery as to what is desired in the pen. Otherwise, YouTubes of Congress or World would maybe give a good answer.

::shrug::

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 12:38 PM
I just watched the AQHYA World Championship WP finalist class. The winner was the most natural looking in the class; nice to see. He looks like he's reining bred..."All The Sudden" is the registered name. Anyone have a membership that can look up the pedigree for me? I'm curious!

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 12:39 PM
Oh, and in this class, the announcer didn't say "reverse direction" - he specifically said "reverse at the walk" and they all did circles. When jogging, he said "reverse at the jog" and they jogged small circles to switch direction.

If the announcer had just said "reverse please" I wonder if they would've stopped and turned on haunches?

VaqueroToro
Aug. 9, 2012, 12:43 PM
I've always been taught that when you reverse, you change direction via turning away from the rail to end up going at the same gait just in the opposite direction. You can make a tiny little loop or cut half the arena to do it just as long as you remain in the gait and your cadence is the same. Obviously, the larger your loop is, the easier it is on your horse to keep cadence throughout the direction change.

If you're at a halt, yes a reverse would be a turn on the haunches in 180 degrees -- the front end should revolve around a planted hind foot in a pivot.

It's mostly a pleasure or command class move.

VaqueroToro
Aug. 9, 2012, 12:45 PM
If the announcer had just said "reverse please" I wonder if they would've stopped and turned on haunches?

Nope. Reverse is simply changing directions while on the rail while in a gait.

VaqueroToro
Aug. 9, 2012, 12:50 PM
I just watched the AQHYA World Championship WP finalist class. The winner was the most natural looking in the class; nice to see. He looks like he's reining bred..."All The Sudden" is the registered name. Anyone have a membership that can look up the pedigree for me? I'm curious!

I'm out of money for the month on my account, but here's his sire (http://mastersonfarms.com/stallions/rl-best-of-sudden.html).

Tamara in TN
Aug. 9, 2012, 01:49 PM
Oh, and in this class, the announcer didn't say "reverse direction" - he specifically said "reverse at the walk" and they all did circles. When jogging, he said "reverse at the jog" and they jogged small circles to switch direction.

If the announcer had just said "reverse please" I wonder if they would've stopped and turned on haunches?

well there you go..."reverse at <insert>" is a command class....like having a dog heel off line. You have to obey the command

no, you don't get to break gait for that

Tamara

OveroHunter
Aug. 9, 2012, 02:53 PM
If they say to halt and reverse you do a turn on the haunches to the inside and halt once you finish.

If they just say to reverse you continue at whatever gait you're doing and do a small half circle.

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 02:55 PM
well there you go..."reverse at <insert>" is a command class....like having a dog heel off line. You have to obey the command

no, you don't get to break gait for that

Tamara

That's my point. If I am walking on the rail, and the judge says "reverse please" I would still continue walking, and reverse my direction by completing a half circle.

Which is why the turn on the haunches no longer applies, unless the riders have halted, and then are told to reverse direction. If the command is reverse direction and walk, they would turn on the haunches and then walk. If the command is "reverse" they would turn on the haunches and stay halted.

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 02:58 PM
why would you reverse at gait ? the reverse is almost always preceded by a halt,and then the better trained horses would plant a pivot foot and come around

Tamara

You are contradicting yourself.

First you say the reverse is almost always preceded by a halt, and then a pivot to change.

Then you say don't halt, continue the gait that you're currently at.

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 03:01 PM
I'm out of money for the month on my account, but here's his sire (http://mastersonfarms.com/stallions/rl-best-of-sudden.html).

Interesting. The horse today looked reining bred, but the sire's side is not so.

Tamara in TN
Aug. 9, 2012, 03:12 PM
You are contradicting yourself.

First you say the reverse is almost always preceded by a halt, and then a pivot to change.

Then you say don't halt, continue the gait that you're currently at.

you are talking about two different kinds of classes,if you are commanded to reverse at a gait then you do it.

If you halt first then you can pop a 180 in there to impress the judge that you have a better broke horse than the one that takes 75 feet to turn in

Tamara

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 9, 2012, 03:24 PM
you are talking about two different kinds of classes,if you are commanded to reverse at a gait then you do it.

If you halt first then you can pop a 180 in there to impress the judge that you have a better broke horse than the one that takes 75 feet to turn in

Tamara

If you are in a pleasure class, and you're walking, and they instruct you to "reverse" - if you halt first and then "pop a 180" then technically you have broken your walk (to halt), and that is not what they asked for. They just said reverse direction, and its implied that you keep the current gait because they didn't tell you to change it (i.e. halt and reverse).

I'm talking western pleasure class (maybe should've been specific about that in the beginning).

saddleup
Aug. 9, 2012, 06:23 PM
I show in breed shows, and in a WP class you don't stop and do a turn on the haunches, you do a small half circle and go the other direction. It used to be that you did the turn on the haunches, years ago, but it's never called for anymore. "Reverse at the walk, reverse at the jog" are the only instructions I ever hear at shows.

BayRoan
Aug. 9, 2012, 07:08 PM
Ditto what saddleup said.

Years ago, it was thought that a halt and 180 haunch turn to reverse showed a higher level of difficulty and "brokeness" and so that was rewarded.

For at least the past several years, a halt, or any cessation of forward motion when not called for, is considered a break in gait. Maintaining cadence and frame while reversing in gait, in that small circle is actually more difficult than the 180 haunch turn method, which is probably why it is now the standard.

You may find local open shows where the haunch turn reverse is still used. If you're interested in a particular show circuit, find out about the judges, or exhibitors that do well there, and figure out what they reward.

CHT
Aug. 9, 2012, 08:14 PM
According to NSBA rules, the horse MUST reverse to the inside at walk or jog (not lope or halt)

Loss of forward momentum in the reverse is considered a fault.

Beyond that, when I am judging, I just want to see smooth, sensible changes of direction. I do not care if the reverse is bigger or smaller as long as the horse is obedient, and they aren't running a risk of running into another horse or me. Reverse is a sensible time to find a better spot on the rail.

Burbank
Aug. 9, 2012, 11:08 PM
I think it depends on breed,stock and arabs do a small circle or tear drop, saddlebreds I think turn to the inside, even the western classes

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 10, 2012, 07:47 AM
...
Loss of forward momentum in the reverse is considered a fault.
Beyond that, when I am judging, I just want to see smooth, sensible changes of direction. I do not care if the reverse is bigger or smaller as long as the horse is obedient, and they aren't running a risk of running into another horse or me. Reverse is a sensible time to find a better spot on the rail.

This is EXACTLY what the western pleasure trainers both said to me.

quarters n paints
Aug. 10, 2012, 01:53 PM
The only time you do a turn on the haunches is if the reverse is called while you are at a halt. I was at a big show this weekend, and most of the time we reversed at either the walk or jog. In one class, they had us stop on the rail, back up, then halt. They then called the reverse, so in that instance I did a turn on the haunches, then stopped and waited for the next instruction, which in this case was the lope. That was a pleasure class, not a command class.

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 10, 2012, 07:12 PM
That's what I was told was correct also. Thank you for the input! The question was to settle a "disagreement" about which was the accepted/correct way.

Beverley
Aug. 11, 2012, 12:48 AM
What CHT said. Now, at the walk, I can make a pretty tight turn 'around' the haunches without loss of forward momentum- but as noted, it's also an opportunity to spread out a bit (and to me it never hurts to show the judge that your pleasure horse can do a nice correct half circle off of legs and seat alone).

If your horse is showing well, you do want to be sure judge has a clear view. If it's not horse's best day, well, you might accidentally find yourself obscured from the judge at key points.:cool:

Plumcreek
Aug. 11, 2012, 12:54 PM
I've ridden enough turns showing in the WP pen to make up for missing the question! ;) I've heard judges say a turn on haunches is their preference, but I've seen them pin all sorts of "WTF".

Depends if it is the rail portion of horsemanship, where a turn on the haunches shows more ability......or, a western pleasure class, where a small to medium circle, then very gradual leg yeild back to the rail will not only set you up for a lope, but open up space in front of you and bunch up those behind you. I spent a week at Congress one year, watching a very big BNT do this over and over.

Go Fish
Aug. 11, 2012, 07:25 PM
It used to be that you did the turn on the haunches, years ago, but it's never called for anymore.

It has fallen out of favor because most trainers used a turn on the haunches as a schooling opportunity...to back the horse off and get them off the inside leg. You know that a ring-smart horse will start drifting to the inside in anticipation of the line up so a smart rider will use the reverse to their advantage.

I was just at a big QH show a couple of weeks go. I saw the winner of the junior WP class turn on the haunches to reverse. I'd say it was 50/50 on how the horses were reversed. Either it doesn't matter to the judges, or the judges choose to ignore it.

ccoronios
Aug. 22, 2012, 02:47 PM
Sucker, "I have always felt that just because there may be 6 riders in a class, doesn't mean the judge has to give out all 6 placings!"

Years ago, I was videoing a QH show. The hunter (over fences) classes were pretty dismal. Judge and I walked back to the main ring together and he was commenting on how difficult it was to pin a class where NO ONE was any good.

I commented that we'd done a Paso Fino show the week before and they were really amazing. There could be a one-horse class and that one horse not get pinned if it wasn't correct. He looked at me and said very quietly, "Welllll....you COULD do that in QHs. [pause] But I don't have the juice."

SuckerForHorses
Aug. 22, 2012, 03:33 PM
I think more judges should do that!

A few years ago at a small local fair horseshow, my close friend was in a halter class with her Appy gelding. She was the only horse in the class. Now, I know that halter classes are on how the horse is built...but I would NOT have pinned this horse!

My friend trotted in past the judge, then set up the gelding. Before the judge could even walk to the horse, he literally RIPPED away from her (chain was over the nose) and bolted from the ring (gate was open...hadn't even had a chance to close it yet, and nobody thought much of it with 1 horse and it being a halter class). The horse almost ran me over on his way out the gate at 100 mph, and flew into the warm up arena down below the main ring. We finally caught him, my friend brought him back up to the ring, and they allowed her back (I would not have) and then...1st place! Yay!

There is no way in H.E.L.L. I would've given her or that horse a 1st place ribbon even when they were the only ones in the class. In fact, I would've immediately dismissed her and her horse, and be on my merry way with the next class.

That horse was nuts - would strike and try to attack while lunging, bronc style bucking if you didnt' ride him every single day, would be a calm little puppy dog and then litterally throw his shoulder into you and run through you and take off. She traded him for a nice little QH gelding, and was 110% honest with the guy she traded with. A week later, the horse was advertised on the guy's website as a "4-H prospect, you can do anything with him!" Hmmm...