Barefoot Help - Look at pic please :) UPDATE p. 5

[Auventera Two]

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[Sobriska]

I'll bite even though it is hard to know alot with only one pic. Don't you wish we could see 3D on the pics?
I really don't see bars that are sticking way up, so I would have to take your word for that. On the rt side of the photo you can see how the wall near the heel is curving around more than the other side. I would want to see that straighter. It's OK to use the knife to make that straighter and then kind of round off the edges with the rasp, inside and outside. From the top, I imagine you are seeing some flaring at the areas where it looks a little seperated at the bottom? Could you lower the heels? You could. But I don't think you MUST. I would lower a tiny bit behind the heel triangle so that the horse is not weight bearing on just that tiny area of heel where it is now kind of hooking around. Cutting the bars. Well again, you could. But I don't personally think they are sticking up so much to be hurting. Again, a pic, not a hoof I am looking at. The pic also appears to me that someone is paring out sole all around? It looks shiny and too smooth. Man made smooth. Is that right or just the pic? If it is the case, I would say leave that alone.
Very interested in other opinions as well.

[LMH]

Is it possible for you to get front/ side and heel shots?

It so so hard to tell what is going on from just a solar shot-there are lots of things that can make a horse sore-one is simply lack of conditioning ;)

and of course something can be off with the trim.

What you 'chase' in terms of finding the problem depends alot on which method you follow-you will find one has the truth-until you find a problem then another method will have the truth:winkgrin: and so on and so on.

Honestly I have not found one answer to soreness-sometimes it can just be an overall 'off' to the balance-which is why a full set of photos is always good.

The bars are up for big debate-honestly what *I* have found is it just depends-and this is where it gets frustrating.

I have one horse that has what many would call 'overgrown' bars-they don't grow above the wall-in other words they are not poking out on their own BUT they don't look very different from what yours show FROM THIS ANGLE (in other words I may change my mind on a later photo)...

Anyway he is completely fine on gravel, hard rocks-whatever with these bars just like they are.

I know breakover being too far forward has been the biggest cause of discomfort in my horses (if I HAD to pick one thing)-it really seems to have more impact than bars or heel height or flares or anything else in my group. Breakover is starting to get more attention in trims, as it should. Gene's NB video does the best job explaining breakover and the ratio of the foot when viewed solarly.

On this foot it seem the breakover may be a bit forward-or it might be the heels still need to come back.

Pictures can be SO deceiving! And to be honest the other biggie I learned is what foot is comfy for one horse won't be for another...so sometimes there is a bit of trial and error until you find the foot that horse wants.

I spent a lot of time chasing bars and chasing heel height and everything you can imagine...it can make you pull your hair out...BUT when you find the foot that works, TATTOO the image in your mind.:)

I wouldn't start trimming away JUST yet-get a little more comfy with what you are studying...remember once you remove something you can't glue it back-it WILL grow but that can be frustrating.

Anyway-if you can get the other photos that would be a big help.

[JB]

I actually see high heels (or underrun heels) and corresponding high bars, as well as a good amount of flaring at the quarters tapering down to less, but still there, flaring at the toe. That combination is likely making the foot sore.

4 weeks is a long time to wait :no:

[Happy_Hooves]

Heels are too tall need to be brought back some. Toe is way too long and needs a rocker. Unless the toe is addressed the horse will quickly restore the excess heel that is removed to defend the DDFT. Breakover is the key ingredient here in getting this foot to reorganize.

I've got links on my webpage to Gene O's site and to Dr. Bowker and Dr Claytons ongoing trim study that you should look at.

[grinanride]

The separation in the quarters could also be a source of discomfort - on hard ground debris can push up into this and lever the wall - the heels and bars are too high but it would not be a matter of rasping this flat - these hooves have great potential - post good lateral views if you can - absent that, do not let anyone trim any off the bottom of the foot in it's front half, concentrate on the rear, quarters and back. hard to tell with the photo angle but looks like the inside heel/bar triangle is far forward of the outside
TE

[irishcas]

Two Simple,

I think you should try to find someone to help you, where are you located?

But I have to disagree with the others, I don't think the feet are that bad. Of course I need to see the outside of the foot but you do have a nice wide heel, frog in the back. Yes the bars could stand to come down but I don't see anything that would cause ouchiness. What caught my eye in your post was that the horse is on Alfalfa.

Okay the feet could stand a good mustang roll and the breakover (from toe toe tip of frog) needs to be shorter but that all has to be done over time.

But to me diet/metabolic issues usually play more of a role in ouchiness, so I'd like to know the following:

How old the horse is, is she at a good weight or under/over weight? What breed? Any grain? Is the ground wet a lot in your area?

Regards,

Kim Cassidy
www.clickandtrim.com

[JB]

irishcas, what do you think abou the heels?

[mickeydoodle]

This might seem irreverent, but how about just putting some front shoes on her so she is not sore when you ride on gravel or hard surfaces? That is what shoes were developed for over 500 years ago.

[irishcas]

Hey JB:

I think that the foot does need a trim, but if the owner has no one it's best to encouarge and point out the good things first :) I think the heels/bars could come down for sure. I went and looked at the other link that Two Simple sent and now I can see more. It does look like someone tried to rasp the outer hoof wall to reduce the flaring tubules and the toe has a decent roll on it.

My thing is that there is nothing there to indicate ouchiness, I've seen a lot of feet in the past few years that have taught me at some point it isn't the trim as much as it is diet, turnout, saddle fit and even the rider.

When someone says their horse has been ouchy for a few months and they have such nice looking frogs as these (which indicate a fairly healthy Digital Cushion) I start to look elsewhere. Now Two Simple says she is on Alfalfa, and she is overweight - that is a red flag for me right there

My suggestion is to first get the horse off the Alfalfa and get the horse to drop some weight. Of course slightly lower heels/bars would help too.

Of course this is my 2 cents and long distance at that :)

Regards,

[JB]

Kim, thanks, I was just curious when you said you didn't really see much of anything wrong. Or at least that's how I interpreted "they aren't that bad" :) But I know you better than that, which is why I asked :winkgrin:


TwoSimple, you may want to treat your mare as if she is IR and supplement with some MagOx/Feed Ox and see if that helps. If she is IR, that may help melt away the pounds without much change in any of the diet. In the meantime, you could, if possible, try putting a muzzle on her for several hours a day. You could modify the hole in the middle to make it a little bigger so she doesn't struggle SO much to get hay, but it should still slow her down. Just a thought :)

[goeslikestink]

you need shoes on your horse -- all round the back feet are are growing outwards so the pony walks on her insides but the hoof is short and has a dip -
thus if you put shoes on would allow the foot to grow and re shape and beinfit fro that -- you ponies feet are sore as the sloe is black -- and tgr frogs red
the actuallu out sides of hoof have rings and ridgees this is one of the sign of a lammitic pony -- hence soreness on all four ffeet as lso proven front view
stands with front feet ata stance-- back feet -accomamdate the fronts ---

and on hind leg feet rides inside hoof and toe-- as toes to short --

this pony in my opnion needs shoes -- to much work can wear away the foot
and white line-- i would actually unlees you a trian farrier try to trime themyour self- you will do more harm than good-- front feet show signs of laminit along and in side the clef of frog--

so change your diet has to much protein -- and put road shoes on horse
to allow the horn to regrow -- and dress accordingly by farrier

easy ways - to check for short toes is get a ruler and fron the cleff of frog point towards the toe in striaght line -- thus will tell you how out your ponies feet are at the quarters---- its needs shoeing sorry -- and you need to change your diet ---

[goeslikestink]

and i say cleff of frog cuase a ruler is an inch thick- or staright line up middle of frog -- most afrraier will do it with a rasp

[goeslikestink]

its the grass to much protein if shes overweight thats a sign to -- got a piccy of her -- as a whole horse

[LMH]

Two Simple-I agree with irishcas. The longer I deal with my own barefoot heard the more I don't obsess on the trim and look to diet, conditioning, etc.

Don't get me wrong-a foot needs to be balanced-but all the factors play into things.

You have been given some good advice-I hope things sort out easily for you.

goeslikestink-you make no sense to me whatsoever:confused:

[goeslikestink]

then i give -up my horses do go bear foot in winter time but do have shoes on come spring summer and autum-- the reason i take mine off for the winter is due to the weather --i persaonally dont like riding when its ablsoutly pouring down and is wet and gales --nor snowing not the first snow thats ok but the second as it hides ice-- i do go out dont get me wrong over the winter but in indoor stuff where by its sandy --so not to bad for the horse and i do hunter trials on better days--along with riding in betwen bad weather -- but thats just me and the horse i personally use out of the 8 i have but i do teach on the ponies butnot when to wet as it turns m ground up and i have only 2 acres--

i look after my horses feet in order to have a horse-- i have never had a problem with there feet since owning them but have brought them in with bad feet -- only one was where it needed constant management which was ted as he had lamintus - but i got him like that -- i am careful to watch and have always been careful what i feed and what they eat ie spring grass--

if you think i dont make sense then fair enough but to me the horse in question is sore but sore on all four feet not just one--so you cant see it nor feel it --as its four -- ochy ouchy -- nope shes ouchy oucy and sore
if you feel that then you need a better farrier to address what you feel

her feet are short-- and her stance in the piccys tell me suspect lamnitus
horses can and do get in winter same as summer --but also theres a lot of trimming that has been done -- in the bars of the quarters - which you said yourself if your farrier hasnt done it again hes not a wise farrier--

but the back feet speak the most -- and any farrier will tell you well a good one- that feet are growing outwards -- and need corrective shoeing or corrective triming every 6 weeks

[EqTrainer]

Fat, cresty neck :eek:

Ok, this is not meant to freak you out. But please, do as JB suggests, and get this horse on MagOx as soon as you can.

One of the horses that educated me about laminitis was a TB who we *now* know had insulin issues.. he had once been starved, which I am convinced whacks some horses systems out of shape, but that's not the point. The point is, that he was always a little ouchie. There was no "good" reason to have ever believed he was experienced low level laminitic episodes.. really. His feet never gave us the normal clues. But he would periodically develop a mildly cresty neck. Anyway. Fast forward to after he left us, he crashed and burned - thru no fault of his owner, who had not figured it out either. It was a harsh lesson for all of us and certainly a terrible one for him.

So take the neck seriously, please.

[LMH]

Hmmmm, interesting, goeslikestink, I will have to respectfully disagree with most of what you have said.

I am still having a hard time reading your posts and that might be causing part of my confusion.

[JB]

The horse is sore/tender on gravel - not uncommon for a horse needing a tweak to the trim.

I see nothing in any of the pictures on TS's link that shows the horse standing from the side in a laminitic stance - are you looking at a picture I don't see? The horse looks to be standing pretty normally from what I can see - not parked out, not weighting his hind end.

Part of what "doesn't make sense" with your posts is the way you post - I don't know if English isn't your first language or what, but most of your posts are difficult to understand in that regard, so it's often hard to even figure out what you are talking about.

[goeslikestink]

sorry for bump but just re read it -- horse also has a cresty neck most definate lamnitus -- cresty neck overweight and ridges on feet -- shes needs to come off the grass -- or mussle her -- she got tomuch pretien going in hence another reason for the stance and roll toes on hinds --she needs a better farrier -google lamnitus conditions -- and signs of showing lamnitus -- ok dokey

[EqTrainer]

The horse is sore/tender on gravel - not uncommon for a horse needing a tweak to the trim.

I see nothing in any of the pictures on TS's link that shows the horse standing from the side in a laminitic stance - are you looking at a picture I don't see? The horse looks to be standing pretty normally from what I can see - not parked out, not weighting his hind end.

JB, the horse I mentioned never did either. NEVER. What he taught me was to not assume the classical laminitic signs would be there, of any sort.

Eventually we concluded that he had very mild flareups, where probably all four feet were sore.

I am not saying this horse is laminitic - all I am saying is, be aware that if you cannot get this resolved, it could be something really out of the box and since this horse has a cresty neck and a weight problem, I would be even more inclined to consider it.

[JB]

EqTrainer, I know, the horse doesn't have to exhibit the laminitic stance, but goeslikestink keeps saying how the horse is exhibiting a classic laminitic stance, and I'm just not seeing it.

[blrm]

Fat, cresty neck :eek:
The point is, that he was always a little ouchie. There was no "good" reason to have ever believed he was experienced low level laminitic episodes.. really. His feet never gave us the normal clues.

No white line stretching?It would just be too boring if they all showed the same symptoms wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

[SpazabianLitRB]

This might seem irreverent, but how about just putting some front shoes on her so she is not sore when you ride on gravel or hard surfaces? That is what shoes were developed for over 500 years ago.

While shoes may make the horse rideable on gravel and hard surfaces, its only a temporary fix and will also ruin the feet. Usually when the horse is ouchy over these surfaces it is because something else is wrong.

And that isn't the only reason shoes were developed-different areas had different uses for hoof protection.

[Xanthoria]

These feet look pretty good but they are very flat - you can see from the photo of the print left by the feet on the ground. When they develop some concavity they'll function better and be less sore.

[goeslikestink]

diont agree that shoes make a temperory fix-- shoes have been around for yonks and farriers in england have to do a 4yr course part of which is vetinary -- so if its leg or foot then a good farrier you can ask as they deal with more feet than vets do --

[luvmytbs]

diont agree that shoes make a temperory fix-- shoes have been around for yonks and farriers in england have to do a 4yr course part of which is vetinary -- so if its leg or foot then a good farrier you can ask as they deal with more feet than vets do --

goeslikestink

Perhaps barefoot is not as commonly practiced in England - yet.
You might want to do a little research on the net about the natural barefoot trims being practiced all over the world now.
Here is a link to a site from which you can order barefoot books in the UK: http://www.nagtrader.co.uk/NAGtrader-horse-pony-articles/natural-horse-pony-western-riding/barefoot-horse.asp

Your statement of shoes having been around as long as 500 years might be correct, however horses have been around much longer then that, and horses in the wild obviously do just fine without shoes, covering around 20 miles a day on rough terrain.

Most of the barefoot trims have been refined by people studying the hooves of feral horses, giving a guideline how a healthy hoof should look and function.

If you are interested in learning more about what the hoofgurus on this board are talking of, there is a lot of research you can do on the net. just google "barefoot horses"

[JB]

I also figured that if she got about 50 lbs off, the neck would come down a bit too.

That's where you figured wrong ;) You can have a skinny horse with a cresty neck. The "fat" isn't necessarily from too many calories. It can be from improper use of the calories - in this case, the sugars. And the cresty neck in this case isn't even fat - it's more of an edema. MagOx is cheap, and you should be able to pretty quickly (like within a few weeks) tell if it is going any good in that area.

[EqTrainer]

Nope, never a stretched white line. We had two clues - and to this day I still kick myself over it - the first was a series of abcesses when we first got him. His feet were so unbalanced then, and he was in such poor condition, that we credited them to the usual crap we go through getting one straigthened out.
The second was that he never got concave even when his feet were balanced.

Two Simple - no horse should genetically have a cresty neck. If she's got one, somethings up.

I don't see the laminitic pose in TS's horse either.

[Auventera Two]

Ok, I hope I'm not going way off topic here, but your comment about the absesses just gave me a major lightbulb moment.

This is concerning a DIFFERENT horse of mine - not the one we're talking about here -

Anyway, I have a mare with very very flat, typical TB feet. About 4 years ago she went through a bout with some NASTY abcesses on both hinds. The vet and farrier both were very involved with this, and I had decided to euthanize her because she went downhill so fast, I was scared she would get down and never get up. She was old, by the way.

Vet and farrier both highly recommended AGAINST euthanizing, and thought she would clear up. I wanted x-rays done of the feet, but vet said not necessary. Since they were visibly abcesses, it obviously wasn't founder (this is him talking) and what likely happened is she walked across some gravel out in the field and got some jammed into the white lines of both hind feet. The gravel was now abcessing out.

Horse lost a signifigant amount of weight, but was on serious pain meds and antibiotics. Farrier spent a whole lot of time trimming her to relieve pressure, and everything really helped. I asked farrier about founder and he said no. Founder never presents with abcessing. She got much much better with all the care, and then something very weird happend....She grew NEW FEET! I mean, totally new feet. The hinds developed a thick ring that grew all the way down. The new hoof was very shiny and the old hoof was obviously very dull.

Do you think this horse foundered? This has bothered us - we really want to know what happened. To this day it has been such a mystery why this horse would get 2 abcesses in one hind and 3 in the other. I mean - overnight.

Now you mentioned the abcessing in conjunction with laminitis. I know laminitis and founder and different things, but could abcesses be a sign of foundering?

This was very early in the spring and there wasn't enough grass in the field to blow your nose on. And nothing else had changed in her diet. The only other thing that seemed like a major trigger was a small trailer accident she had a couple of days prior to the abcesses breaking out. She was backing out of the trailer and freaked for no apparent reason. She flipped over backwards, but thankfully did not hit her head, and landed on very soft muddy ground. She didn't even get a scratch. But I always wondered if that was just too much stress for the nervous TB she is. It absolutely terrified her and she was shaking, scared.

Could that type of stress caused her to founder?

[JB]

Founder absolutely can and often does result in abcesses. Founder is the rotation and/or sinking of the coffin bon due to enough lamina being compromised (ie weakening and/or dying) to loosen the connection. Dead tissue has to be gotten rid of somewhere, and the feet like to do this through abcesses.

[ML]

http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=32449 this may help.

ML

[Auventera Two]

THANK YOU!! How did you find it? I obviously did something wrong!

Over the last month, she has definitely gotten better, and I think its because the foot has grown out more. But I think when he trims her again, she may get very very sore again. I like how she's doing right now, but she has several weeks of growth on the trimmed foot. But.......its back to the hard ground :( I would love for her to be sound on ALL ground, ALL the time.

I've heard that this is often the product of a "traditional" farrier job, but barefoot trims don't cause the horse to get so sore. This is another reason I'd really like to pursue it :D

[Pippigirl]

Hi Two Simple,

When your farrier comes to trim, what does he do to the bars and heel triangles? Do they get moved back to the widest part of the frog? Just a rookie here but....if the mare does have good digital cushioning and wide heels, how can she use it fully if the heels are allowed to be pulled forward? If the bars are allowed to get high, would that not cause pressure points (ouchiness) on gravel and hard ground? She would still be fine on grass or soft footing.

[Lookout]

Fat, cresty neck :eek:
One of the horses that educated me about laminitis was a TB who we *now* know had insulin issues.. he had once been starved, which I am convinced whacks some horses systems out of shape, but that's not the point. The point is, that he was always a little ouchie. There was no "good" reason to have ever believed he was experienced low level laminitic episodes.. really. His feet never gave us the normal clues. But he would periodically develop a mildly cresty neck. Anyway. Fast forward to after he left us, he crashed and burned - thru no fault of his owner, who had not figured it out either. It was a harsh lesson for all of us and certainly a terrible one for him.
So take the neck seriously, please.

Actually, the having been starved issue, may be the point or at least part of it. The easy keeper types are often practically "starved", out of what appears to be necessity. I'm convinced (as you suggest), that this pattern of feeding ultimately affects their metabolism, their ability to properly metabolize nutrients, and perhaps LEADS to the insulin resistant type problems that seem to cause the signs of laminitis/founder. (And not the other way around). Continual starvation mode, as well intentioned as it may be, has to be stressful on the horse's system.

The way you describe the situation, it sounds as if he would develop the cresty neck in response to stressors. Do you know what it was later that specifically caused him to crash and burn?

[Happy_Hooves]

Cresty or otherwise metabolic horses with ouchy feet. The excess cortisol circulating in the horse slowly erodes connective tissue over time. Including the lamina, tendons, ligaments and cartilge. As a farrier I notice these horses by their body condition by the distortion that occurs over time in the hooves and by the reduction in range of motion that occurs over time in the knees hocks and stifles. Its essential to attack the metabolic issues.

Great article by my friend patty stiller that you should review:

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/articles/additional/metabolicissues-stiller.html

These guys require that the frog be supported either by a natural barefoot trim or via a frog support pad. Using just shoes alone further loads the already stressed hoofwall lamina interface.

[LMH]

Great article George! That is a must read for everyone imo!

[EqTrainer]

Thank you George ! Wish I had seen this one a long time ago, but better late than never...

[EqTrainer]

Actually, the having been starved issue, may be the point or at least part of it. The easy keeper types are often practically "starved", out of what appears to be necessity. I'm convinced (as you suggest), that this pattern of feeding ultimately affects their metabolism, their ability to properly metabolize nutrients, and perhaps LEADS to the insulin resistant type problems that seem to cause the signs of laminitis/founder. (And not the other way around). Continual starvation mode, as well intentioned as it may be, has to be stressful on the horse's system.

The way you describe the situation, it sounds as if he would develop the cresty neck in response to stressors. Do you know what it was later that specifically caused him to crash and burn?

Oh my goodness. . YES, he did probably develop the cresty neck in response to being stressed. That makes perfect sense. One more thing to think about.

I absolutely agree that the being starved part of it is significant (just didn't want to address it right then/there). I am CONVINCED that anytime you play with fire i.e: do not let a horse forage 24/7 and instead either starve it or feed it periodic small meals that you can end up with metabolic issues. It's common sense, given that horses were made to eat low quality forage all the time.

I refuse to not feed any of my horses free choice hay. I buy a low quality (not meaning moldy, etc. etc.) fescue hay and let them eat as much as they want - all of them, all the time. I have noticed that those who would supposedly be prone to metabolic issues are not. The only time my "easy keeper" QH has ever developed a cresty neck was when we had a terrible time getting hay and I had to ration it. My pony, who is 19 years old, shows no signs of IR resistance and/or Cushings and has never had laminitis. She eats hay 24/7. Nor are any of them overweight.

Thanks for posting this. I would like to further explore it, I think it is so important and very misunderstood. So often the first instruction is to cut back everything, including hay.

[Lookout]

Thanks for posting this. I would like to further explore it, I think it is so important and very misunderstood. So often the first instruction is to cut back everything, including hay.
Keep me posted. I don't even know where to start, in terms of exploring it further.

[siegi b.]

I think it's amazing that you can have a horse that is consistently lame going over hard surfaces, has a cresty neck, is overweight, and you still refuse to put supporting shoes (as in heart bars) on the animal. What is the difference between having a horse suffer on the way to slaughter and having it endure pain because you insist on no shoes?

It's one thing to try the barefoot thing on a healthy animal that is not expected to carry a rider over gravel roads. It's a whole other issue to do so with a flat-soled, most likely laminitic horse and then make matters worse by trying to trim the hooves yourself.

Give me a break!

Siegi Belz

[EqTrainer]

Keep me posted. I don't even know where to start, in terms of exploring it further.

My vet is coming out Monday. She is young and very open-minded. I am going to talk to her about it and see if she can give me some direction.

On the same topic, but not quite ;) I have a horse right now that I suspect is walking the IR/Cushings line. He, too, possibly has had low level laminitic attacks. Trying to revamp his diet and not eliminate grass. Now THAT will be interesting <LOL> I will try to keep giving updates as I go along.

[luvmytbs]

It's one thing to try the barefoot thing on a healthy animal that is not expected to carry a rider over gravel roads. It's a whole other issue to do so with a flat-soled, most likely laminitic horse and then make matters worse by trying to trim the hooves yourself.

Give me a break!

Siegi Belz

Siegi,

you are kidding, right?

Calling it "the barefoot thing" shows that yet another person has failed to do any research and/or reading up on the subject.

[marta]

putting shoes on a laminitic horse to make it go smoothly over gravel is DENIAL. the damage is happening within the hoof. shoes are covering up the symptomes but have no impact on what's happening to the horse on a metabolic level. not to mention that shoes themselves prevent the hoof from natural flexion, limit the blood supply, etc.

[irishcas]

I think it's amazing that you can have a horse that is consistently lame going over hard surfaces, has a cresty neck, is overweight, and you still refuse to put supporting shoes (as in heart bars) on the animal. What is the difference between having a horse suffer on the way to slaughter and having it endure pain because you insist on no shoes?

Seigi:

Shoes don't get rid of excess weight or cresty necks. The OP needs to address those issues and then she'll have a horse who can carry it's weight over any terrain.

It's one thing to try the barefoot thing on a healthy animal that is not expected to carry a rider over gravel roads. It's a whole other issue to do so with a flat-soled, most likely laminitic horse and then make matters worse by trying to trim the hooves yourself.

Shoes do NOT fix laminitis and pounding nails into a laminitc foot does it no favors either.

I have just finished putting up a bunch of new photos on my site that shows many different feet and most can carry themselves and a rider over ANY terrain.

Also check out all the links on my site, it will keep you busy reading about good hoof care.

Regards,

[Auventera Two]

I added a whole body photo of her. This is at her fattest, with the neck the crestiest its been. She does look a little better now. Ignore the bit. I never ride with a bit, but this bridle and saddle were only for picture purposes - thought I'd get a good one but - alas - I was wrong.
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=9230071&uid=4370476&members=1

[siegi b.]

I am so glad that you guys feel so secure in your knowledge that having your horses go barefoot will cure all evil. I still believe that it borders on animal abuse to not put shoes on a flat-soled horse and then insist on riding it on gravel surfaces. My horse gets abscesses!!! Wow! I wonder why?

I have read plenty about Strasser's methods and am in awe of her marketing savy. Sure, let's teach every Tom, Dick and Harry how to trim their own horses in two days, as long as we can charge an arm and a leg for the training. And really, all it takes is a two day course to convince everybody that all horses need to go barefoot. Let's throw that poor old laminitic mare out in the field to fend for herself - if she makes it, we were right, if she doesn't, well then she probably spent too many years in shoes.

There are no solutions that fit every horse. We have turned horses into animals that depend on our help. So to conveniently bring up the "horses in the wild" theories is ludicrous to say the least.

I feel sorry for the horses that have to suffer through yet another fad in horse keeping and maintenance.

Siegi Belz
www.stalleuropa.com

[Moonie]

Two Simple, I don't know if anyone has said anything yet but...

Even if these pictures are just to show us what these feet look like they are AMAZING!

From my artsy fartsy nature, and obcession with cool photos, I can say these look great. The lighting and the clarity are great!

Just wanted to let you know. :yes:

[Lookout]

Yes, but why is there excess cortisol to begin with? As stated in the article, cortisol is produced as a result of stress, and (not stated in the article) stress results from the feeding practices (starvation) these horses are subjected to in response to trying to keep their weight down to fend off the imminent founder. As well as improper trimming/shoeing resulting in low level chronic pain.

As an aside, the descriptions of connective tissue loss is very interesting in light of the conventional understanding of DSLD, inasmuch as they insist that it is genetic because not only the suspensories are affected but other organs, etc. and of course cortisol can't target just a suspensory branch (just like grass/carhbohydrates can't target just the front feet).

Cresty or otherwise metabolic horses with ouchy feet. The excess cortisol circulating in the horse slowly erodes connective tissue over time. Including the lamina, tendons, ligaments and cartilge. As a farrier I notice these horses by their body condition by the distortion that occurs over time in the hooves and by the reduction in range of motion that occurs over time in the knees hocks and stifles. Its essential to attack the metabolic issues.

Great article by my friend patty stiller that you should review:

http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/education/articles/additional/metabolicissues-stiller.html

These guys require that the frog be supported either by a natural barefoot trim or via a frog support pad. Using just shoes alone further loads the already stressed hoofwall lamina interface.

[goeslikestink]

thanks ivmytbs the link to bear foots --- now that shows in comparason a healthy foot---

i do go barefoot thanks and will put shoes back on the ones that compete with in march till oct as i have always done -- the rest of which lwwaves 6 are bearfoot year round ---

[Lookout]

I have noticed that those who would supposedly be prone to metabolic issues are not. The only time my "easy keeper" QH has ever developed a cresty neck was when we had a terrible time getting hay and I had to ration it.
Gosh, you know what this almost makes me think of - it almost sounds like a camel's hump, in which they store some sort of fatty tissue, I guess for hard times. (it's not water like we've been told).

[luvmytbs]

I am so glad that you guys feel so secure in your knowledge that having your horses go barefoot will cure all evil. I still believe that it borders on animal abuse to not put shoes on a flat-soled horse and then insist on riding it on gravel surfaces. My horse gets abscesses!!! Wow! I wonder why?


No-one is claiming barefoot will rid a horse of all evil. Obviously though, many have had great success with rehabbing their horses the barefoot route along with proper lifestyle and nutrition, when the coventional approaches didn't show any changes. And abcesses (as cruel as it may sound to you) are part of the healing process.
All my OTTB's coming off the track, traditionally have the flat pancake feet, thanks to all the "great" farrier work done there. However, within a few months of barefoot rehab, the concavity is back, the underrun heels are no longer growing forward and in no time, we are doing trails on rough terrain without pain. The better the feet were to start with (which can be related to the amount of time these animals spent in shoes), the less abcessing will occur, if any, during the transition time. My last three never had an abcess once. Actually, my only one who had abcesses, was 18 years old when the shoes finally came off. He hasn't had an abcess in seven years now...


I have read plenty about Strasser's methods and am in awe of her marketing savy. Sure, let's teach every Tom, Dick and Harry how to trim their own horses in two days, as long as we can charge an arm and a leg for the training. And really, all it takes is a two day course to convince everybody that all horses need to go barefoot. Let's throw that poor old laminitic mare out in the field to fend for herself - if she makes it, we were right, if she doesn't, well then she probably spent too many years in shoes.


Strasser is not the only one out there, as you are probably well aware of. Her methods of trimming have its place, and she does no proclaim that a two day clininc will teach you how to trim. Her certification takes an entire year, a whole lot longer then a farrier has to study for (it's six weeks I believe?)
And she definitely does not suggest to throw a laminatic horse out in the field to fend for herself. Where did you get that idea?


There are no solutions that fit every horse. We have turned horses into animals that depend on our help. So to conveniently bring up the "horses in the wild" theories is ludicrous to say the least.


The horses in the wild are serving the purpose of showing us what a healthy hoof should look like. Since our domestic horses are not able to self trim like the mustangs do, we, the responsible horse owners, are the ones to provide frequent trimmings to establish a consistent healthy balance. Of course, if you are able to ride your horse in such an environment on a daily basis, the trimming becomes a rare necessity. The barns offering trailrides, with barefoot horses, can attest, that their horse's feet are close to what a mustangs foot looks like and rarely ever need a tweaking.


I feel sorry for the horses that have to suffer through yet another fad in horse keeping and maintenance.


Contrary to your believe, this is not a fad. If you do the research, you will find that for example John Lions has had his horses barefoot for over ten years; Clinton Anderson has taken his horses the barefoot route with the help of Pete Ramey; Earle Simon is a race horse trainer in England, who runs his horses barefoot (and they are winning); Darilyn Butler does her endurance rides on her barefoot horses; Brother Derek, one of the Derby contenders, has been training barefoot all last summer and there are many more examples out there.

[marta]

pretty mare but she's a porker;)
my kipper used to look like that long time ago. she's also an air fern.
i pulled kipper's shoes about 4 years ago b/c she had some lameness issues (not related to metabolic problems). her feet got nice and big (they were v. contracted) but she continued being sore on gravel and hard surfaces. the farrier i was using back then said that i should apply venice turpentine, then he said that it takes a year for the hoof to grow out, then he said that some horses are just more sensitive than others... so i got a new trimmer and quickly found out that my mare becomes laminitic on grass. and then i learned that once the damage from laminitis is done, even when the grass is gone it takes the hoof a loong time to heal from damage of laminitis. so i would only get about 2 months of total soundness just to fall back into the same pattern again. unfortunately this was a learning process for me. now i know and in another week or two i'll put the muzzle on her. i hope that will limit the intake enough to where she will not develop laminitis. however, if problems begin anyway, i will move her to a dry lot.

oh, and btw, when she was ouchy and laminitic, she wasn't necessarily fat. there was one summer (the summer that made me finally turn to someone else for advice) that she did put on weight, but the two initial barefoot years she was not fat. and certainly last year she was not fat when the laminitis flared up. so i guess my point is that while your mare's condition now strongly suggests that her ouchiness may be related to a metabolic problem, don't think that once she looses weight the problems disappear. last year when kipper developed laminitis she was fit and slim.

ok,this got a lot longer than i intended.

btw, i love that picture of her on the lunge line:)

[LMH]

Whoooooooooooaaaaaaaaa Two Simple-welcome to the Air Fern club.

Methinks the little cresty neck and weedle bit of excess insulation *cough cough* is more the source of the troubles than you might think.;)

I think a little diet evaluation is in order.

Have you heard of the benefits of adding Chromium to the diet as well?

If I missed the post EXACTLY what does this horse eat, including grass/pasture and hay.

[Auventera Two]

Thank you everyone! :) Isn't she a porkchop??????

I'm thinking the muzzle is in order. Poor thing. She realllllllly won't be happy! :eek: lol

She is on a huge field pretty much 24/7. There is a shelter they go in, but they would rather stand out. On days it is super nasty and rainy, I do put a waterproof/windproof blanket on just to keep the wet off. She eats on roundbales which are put out fresh every weekend, and consist of grass and alfalfa. Sometimes a few bales does have timothy - it depends on which field the farmer got the hay off. Rarely any grain - if so its just a handful for a treat.

Her work schedule is about 3 times per week - strictly trail, but fairly vigorous riding. In the summer we do about 10-12 miles per ride. But this winter its been more like about 3 miles per ride.

[EqTrainer]

Gosh, you know what this almost makes me think of - it almost sounds like a camel's hump, in which they store some sort of fatty tissue, I guess for hard times. (it's not water like we've been told).

Yes, that's what I suspect.

So now the question is, where to start such research. Hmmmmm.

To the OP: your mare is portly! I would definately be suspicious of laminitic issues.

[Auventera Two]

Can I get more information on the Mag Ox?

[EqTrainer]

Can I get more information on the Mag Ox?

This one is easy!

Go to the feed store and tell them you want a BIG bag of feed grade MagOx. About $8.00. For right now I would feed her two tablespoons a day, maybe more.. anyone else on how much to give the well-endowed girl?

[goeslikestink]

cor lots of grass--- lots of sugary stuff --- cant you get some elecy fencing and do a stripe so shes restricted to one area -- this way you can monitor what goes in == maybe another porky one to keep her company --

[luvmytbs]

cor lots of grass--- lots of sugary stuff --- cant you get some elecy fencing and do a stripe so shes restricted to one area -- this way you can monitor what goes in == maybe another porky one to keep her company --


A dry lot wouldn't be a bad idea if you can set it up. And a big yes to the Mag Ox.

[irishcas]

Plus a dry lot would help because you really don't want her in a muzzle 24/7 that causes sores many times. Many of my clients muzzle during the day and then dry lot them at night.

I don't know your situation but a lot of people I know will fence off a section of pasture and just let the horses graze it down to nothing. It really does make a huge difference and is worth the trouble.

Your mare is very cute Two Simple, I like her coloring.

Regards,

[Mtn trails]

What does Mag Ox do?

[marta]

i'm interested in how much to give as well. i posted the question on another board but didn't get an answer yet... does it depend on the horse's weight or condition?

[marta]

hope you don't mind me asking some additional questions about the supplements.

i feel that i should put my mare on a good vitamine/mineral supplement. does it make sense to pick a vitamin supplement that contains magnesium as well or is it better or cheaper to get magnesium separate?

[SpazabianLitRB]

I feel sorry for the horses that have to suffer through yet another fad in horse keeping and maintenance.

Siegi Belz
www.stalleuropa.com

So don't I. Isn't that exactly what shoes are? A "fad" in horse maintenance? After all, it keeps the horse relatively sound, right? So we get more use out of it?

Yeah, ok. The reason the horse isn't bothered over gravel is because he cannot feel anything under his feet. Now doesn't that make for a safe, confident horse?

I have a mare who has no concavity in her soles at all in the fronts. She had eggbar shoes on for a while. They made everything worse. Yeah, she's sore over rocks. But that just means we avoid those areas on the trails. She can still do everything. And her feet aren't falling apart or being damaged by shoes. She's not getting the extra 800 mH of shock going up her leg when her foot hits the ground. I don't need to worry about her cutting up her leg if she steps wrong, or pulling a shoe when she's moving. And best? I don't need to spend the unneccessary money for some little metal things on her feet.

You can say all you want about how shoes are better, how cruel we are, etc. But maybe you should do your homework before saying it to us.

[JB]

hope you don't mind me asking some additional questions about the supplements.

i feel that i should put my mare on a good vitamine/mineral supplement. does it make sense to pick a vitamin supplement that contains magnesium as well or is it better or cheaper to get magnesium separate?

No vitamin/mineral supplement will give you enough magnesium if you are looking at the Mag for the purpose of helping a IR horse :) I think pretty much all vit/min supplements contain some level of Mag.

That said, Dynamite has a fantastic vit/min supplement - PM me if you want the scoop on that :)

[EqTrainer]

I personally think the dry lot and no food is a really, really, really bad idea.

[JB]

If a dry lot isn't possible, and the option is grass, then muzzle her. If there is no grass to speak of and you're feeding hay, then start soaking it. Either get a laundry basket you can put the hay in, and put that inside a muck bucket, or take an old muck bucket and cut bottom and side drain holes and put that in the other muck bucket. 30 minutes in hot water, or an hour in cold water.

MagOx or FeedOx are items your feed mill should be able to get for you. 50lb bag, cheap, like $10 or less. Make sure it's feed grade.

[EqTrainer]

Magnesium Oxide. I would start w/two tablespoons.

I don't think you can wait until Wednesday to make changes. You can get some from a human health food store today. It sounds like it might be worth the trip.

For now I ditto the muzzle. No grain.

Where are you located? PT me if you need to.

[Lookout]

Have you located any trimming help yet? (I wouldn't be waiting for this farrier). Where are you located?

[luvmytbs]

Are any of these folks closer?:

Barclay Wallace AANHCP Certified Practitioner and Field Instructor and AANHCP Trainer- North Prairie, WI; Phone (262) 719-4372; Email bwallace@wi.rr.com; ; Likes to work with horse owners who want to take more responsibility for their own horses' hooves



Chad Bembenek, AANHCP Certified Practitioner/ Instructor Triangle P Enterprises LLC Rio, Wisconsin , USA Phone: 920-992-6415 Home 920-210-8906 Cell trianglepenterprises@centurytel.net


If not, they might be able to refer you to someone in your area.

[EqTrainer]

No, not the TACK store. The FEED Store.

Magnesium Oxide (Mag Ox) is Magnesium. It's a mineral. It helps the body regulate insulin, amongst other things. It is very difficult to OD a horse on Magnesium. But if they don't have enough - and most don't - they can have serious insulin issue. As your mare seems to.

You should be able to buy it at any feed store that mills their own grains very cheap, in bulk. OR you can buy Quiessence, which has MagOx and a host of other wonderful things in it.

We aren't trying to poison your horse. I understand your reticence, but this is no secret scary thing - and by the looks of your horse, she has been in desperate need of some MagOx for quite a while now. I'd get on it.

[Lookout]

Try www.thehorseshoof.com for trimming resources ("Friends', and professionals). There are at least two in northern WI, one in southern WI, and some in Minnesota.

[Auventera Two]

No, not the TACK store. The FEED Store.


I KNOW. I told you - the feed stores (both of them) are CLOSED until Monday! I thought I'd try the tack shops which WERE open. They sell 10 million other supplements, so I thought it was worth a shot! :D :D

[Auventera Two]

Magnesium Oxide (Mag Ox) is Magnesium. It's a mineral. It helps the body regulate insulin, amongst other things. It is very difficult to OD a horse on Magnesium. But if they don't have enough - and most don't - they can
have serious insulin issue. As your mare seems to.

I understand the mare is overweight. But why isn't it possible for her to simply be overweight from having her nose stuffed in a roundbale 24/7? Why automatically assume she has an insulin problem and needs to be medicated?

I'm going to talk to the vet before I give her anything. I will call him on Monday. Thanks for giving me the info.!

[EqTrainer]

It's not medication. It's a mineral. Like, when you take a vitamin/mineral supplement. Do you ask your doctor before you take a One A Day?

But seriously, it's your horse. So you should do what you are comfortable with. I doubt she is fat simply from free choice hay tho'. Does she get a good mineral/vitamin supplement, or does she just get very little grain and all the hay she can eat? The latter is great IF the vitamin/min's are being properly supplemented. If not, that is how the insulin problems begin.

Anyway, sorry about the miscommunication. Good luck with your vet. Few of them have a clue about nutrition, you might be better off trying to get up with the people from Progressive or Buckeye - but they aren't vets, so without that DVM that might not work for you either!

[luvmytbs]

BTR

Most vets don't know about "natural approaches" because it isn't taught to them in vet school. Just like a people doctor would not know about some of the herbal approaches available in healing certain conditions. I have yet to find a doctor recommend arnica to a patient with a big bruise on the knee from running into a tree riding (haha, my own experience!). But applying arnica several times a day did work wonders......

There are lots of folks out there very experienced in using herbal remedies for certain conditions, you can even find websites where such products are marketed.

Have you tried the cushings yahoo group?

One of my mares had thryroid issues, cresty neck, overweight, laminitis and the whole nine yards. I had to put a grasing muzzle on her in the spring. We put her on the mag ox, once we learned of its benefits, and she is now in a 35 acre pasture with other horses, no muzzle and guess what, she looks fab. The cresty neck has gone down, her weight is better then ever. And no more laminitis episodes for 4 years now. And she is approx. 26 yo.

I hope you can find some research on the web to help support the statements made here from people who have had good results with their approaches.

[Lookout]

I understand the mare is overweight. But why isn't it possible for her to simply be overweight from having her nose stuffed in a roundbale 24/7? Why automatically assume she has an insulin problem and needs to be medicated?

I'm going to talk to the vet before I give her anything. I will call him on Monday. Thanks for giving me the info.!

She may be "just" overweight but the physical appearance is different than in a horse with metabolic problems. The cresty neck is not just fat tissue, it has a weird, dimply consistency and can be very hard. This is not just from overweight it is the result of the inability of the metabolism to correctly process insulin.

If you want to try the tack store with 10 million supplements again, some supplements do contain large amounts of magnesium - like Quiessence. One of my clients to whom I recommended magnesium wanted to get it right away and found it at a tack store. The mare has lost weight without any changes in diet, with a little more exercise. And the crest has gone down.

[Auventera Two]

Thank you for all the great suggestions! I will talk to the vet tomorrow and if he says its fine (which I"m sure he will) then I will start her on the Mag Ox right away. Without your help, I wouldn't have even known where to start, so I really appreciate it! :)

[Auventera Two]

This morning I've been scouring the internet while waiting for my vet to return my call. I've found some REALLY interesting stuff in regard to magnesium deficiency in horses.

I want to say that my mare has a hard, bony calcification on one front foot that I thought was due to an old injury - prior to me getting her.

Last year I was riding this mare many hard miles on the trail several times a week. At that time I was giving her 2 ounces of Go Max liquid with maybe 1/2 cup of grain every day. (remember how overweight she is!!)

Well, I saw that hard, bony growth DECREASE. This further led me to believe it was just an old kick or something and I never thought anything about it.

Now in light of her whole overweight/ouchy foot issue, I have noticed that the bony growth has returned bigger and better than ever! RINGBONE?? Well, in doing a lot of digging this morning, I found out that Ringbone can improve when nutritional balance is retored. She did lose about 50 lbs last summer, and was going great. But...she had on 4 shoes so it is just so hard to say exactly what improved her overall condition. Maybe a combo of things.

So this might explain why the growth got smaller while she was on the GoMax everyday???? Which has 15 mg. of magnesium per ounce. It's not alot, but maybe it was enough to help?

Now the really TELLING piece of evidence. Over the last couple of weeks I noticed some bizarre muscle twitching on this horse. It was like she had a fly that she just couldn't get off. But of course there are no flies this time of year! She would stomp her foot, swish her tail, and her whole skin would just shiver. She has always been very sensitive and I just attributed it to a few hairs being pulled or something tickling her. And it did seem to happen mostly during saddling, and she is extremely cinchy and cold backed anyway. (another clue).

Anyway - Saturday she was in the cross ties and the skin on a front leg started twitching. It looked just like she had a fly, but there wasn't one. She was pulling on the ties trying to get her head down to itch. I unclipped her and she started chewing on her leg. The leg kept twitching and she seemed really annoyed by it. After a couple of good stomps, it quit.

I found reference this morning to muscle tics and twitches in magnesium deficient horses. :(

She also has the other symptoms - tight, sore muscles - cold backed - difficulty in warming up - short strided - etc. Someone was watching me ride just last week and mentioned that the horse looked very tight in her shoulders like something was holding her legs back.

Here's one of the links:
http://www.admani.com/AllianceEquine/TechBulletins/Trace%20Mineralized%20Salt%20Blocks.htm

Well, needless to say, I am going to the feed store AT LUNCH TODAY. I already called, and they do have it. I will begin feeding it to her tonight.

I can't thank you guys enough for the information and for showing me where to start first. Since I started putting these pieces together, it is obviously that I have a very big problem. The coth family is smart and a valuable resource that I don't think I could live without! :eek: And apparently, neither could my horse.

[JB]

She also has the other symptoms - tight, sore muscles - cold backed - difficulty in warming up - short strided - etc. Someone was watching me ride just last week and mentioned that the horse looked very tight in her shoulders like something was holding her legs back.



This sounds very much like EPSM as well.

Magnesium is very important in proper muscle function. It's impossible to determine whether the addition of the GoMax was responsible for the reduction in her "bump", or whether at that time she was getting a better trim (a good trim CAN reduce/eliminate ringbone cause by poorly balanced feet) or what.

[luvmytbs]

Wow, all that talking about twitching brought back some memories of my own. I sometimes would get those leg twitches in bed, especially after a long night out with too much to drink. I would get up and take a magnesium tablet and after 20 minutes the twitching was gone.

[Auventera Two]

Hmmmm. Well, I just got the return call from the vet and he kind of blew my plans out of the water. He said it is never safe to feed magnesium to a horse without a blood test first. He said it is very easy to overdose the horse which can cause serious problems, and sometimes death. So I have to trailer her in for bloodwork and wait for the results. I'm going to try putting a rush on it though. He also said that he is only aware of Mag-Ox being safe for cattle, and said he would not recommend it for horses. He said the Quissence (sp?) would be the product of choice if the mare is in fact deficient. I told him about the twitching and he said this is obviously cause for concern, but it does not mean that the horse is at death's door, or that any emergency action is needed. It only means the problem neeeds to be addressed sooner than later. So, I guess I got freaked over nothing there. :o

[EqTrainer]

Doh? My vet recommends it all the time. They put it in horse feed, the EXACT same thing as you would buy at the feed store. She will be here in a few minutes, I'll ask her again.

BTW, The main ingredient in Quiesssence is... drum roll please..

MAG OX!

Good luck to you. Looks like you get to educate your vet today!

[Auventera Two]

Well, I really don't know why he would suggest one but not the other. Maybe because of the other ingredients the Quiessense has in it?? He did not say.

I asked the guy at the feed store if a lot of horse people buy Mag Ox and he said no - I was the first one who ever said they wanted to use it for a horse. So not too common here I guess.

EqTrainer - the vet did tell me that I could feed a balanced supplement made for horses with no problem - but specifically giving magnesium is not recommended without bloodwork.

[JB]

I don't think it's possible to OD a horse on Magnesium by feeding 2tbsp of it on top of even a well-balanced diet. Just not possible. Otherwise, hundreds of horses would be dead ;)

The fact that the feed store said you are the first to request it is not unusual at all. I have the same situation. It just means that most horse folks are not aware of IR (or even Cushings and that's been a known problem for a lot longer) or mag supplementation. I bet the feed store itself isn't aware of IR, or EPSM, or EMS.

What's the bloodwork going to show? If it shows "normal" amounts of mag, then what? The problem isn't that the IR horse is deficient in mag, the problem is that he needs MORE than the non-IR horse to deal with the insulin.

[luvmytbs]

Maybe it really depends on the area you are in. Kind of like New Yorkers wouldn't have "pig's feet" on their menus.
Or us in the country would have a hard time finding escargot at any restaurant, LOL.

My trimmer buys the Mag OX in bulk for all her clients who's horses need it.

And the horses are all still alive and kicking (much better than they were before).

[luvmytbs]

And why would Jeffers Equine sell a product for laninatic horses with 6000 mg per ounce magnesium in it, if it would cause any harm?

http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=1&mscssid=N2L62LE10CS78PLVSEFQ2EDUCNSC5MNE and search for the product Remission.

This might be a good product, I have never seen it before.
Any thoughts?

[FortheFunofitFarm]

I was feeding Quiessence and switched to Mag OX. BTW, I don't think it would occur to any of the employees at MY feed store to even ask which animals I was using it for. They just are so NOT in tune with the nutritional requirements of horses, or any animal. I don't consult or discuss with them anything for any of my 6 diffferent kinds animals.

I wonder though if you fed it prior to the bloodwork, if it will skew the results you are needing to see?

I'd be concerned about EPSM as well. She could be laying all the carbs from her hay down as fat.

[Ladybug Hill]

Now, I know that horses and humans are not equal. With that said though, I will mention that I am a critical care nurse. Low magnesium levels in humans is very detrimental--even slightly low. When a person cardiac arrests we often give magnesium as one of the drugs for resuscitation. We do this even NOT KNOWING what the person serum mag level is because a high mag level is generally safe. In fact, at times we have drawn blood just at the beginning of a cardiac arrest and then given the mag after with excellent results--and then find out that the pre-med mag level was actually normal. So why did the mag help resolve the arrest????

I think that this just points out that low or low to normal mag levels can have detrimental effects while slightly high levels are probably not harmful.

I would contact a nutritionist before "trusting" my vet for nutrition advice. They are just not trained. Many doctors aren't either--most dietitians know far more than any doctor.

As far as the mare's feet, I would like to see some concavity in sole. I think that would help.

Good luck with everything!

[Lookout]

It sounds like your vet is upset that you would take the initiative to do research on your own and educate yourself, in the process making him look bad by not suggesting it first, and diminishing his "power".

Bloodwork will not really tell you anything much. A horse has to be seriously, seriously deficient in a mineral for it to show up on a blood test. It would be interesting to do bloodwork before and after supplementing. I bet there would be no change because it's not enough to show up on the test.

[luvmytbs]

[QUOTE=Ladybug Hill] With that said though, I will mention that I am a critical care nurse. QUOTE]


My barefoot trimmer is an open brain/open heart surgery nurse during the time she doesn't trim horses. I doubt she would promote using Magnesium without the proper research. She has become extremely verse in all the holistics, dietary and nutritional aspects of horse care, since she rehabs many founder/laminitis/IR horses.

[JB]

TS, just as a side, vets continue to recommend Red Cell for "anemic" horses. Red cell contains an inorganic form of iron, and combine that with the fact that it seems most vets don't know to test for anemia AFTER the horse has been exercised for 20 minutes or so, combined with the fact that it's document that true anemia in horses is very rare and MOST of those anemias are secondary to a primary cause, and it doesn't take much to realize that vets don't know much about mineral relationships in the horse other than when the animal is VERY deficient or toxic, as in Selenium.

[onthebit]

that doesn't really apply to this thread. I don't want to hijack TS's thread here.

TS, my husband is an animal nutritionist by training and he often rolls his eyes at what my vets have to say about nutrition and how little they really know about it. Not saying that vets are bad, but sometimes we unrealistically expect them to know everything about everything when it comes to our horses.

Good luck with your horse!

[EqTrainer]

My vet just left a little while ago and when I posed this question to her she was really baffled. She said that it is very difficult to give a horse too much MagOx, and that it is one of the first things she recommends for any horse with potential insulin problems. Her horse is on it ;)

I also just remembered that our old vet used to buy the 50 lb bags and repackage it, selling it at a profit <LOL>

[xegeba]

between Epsom Salts and MagOx?

[EqTrainer]

Epsom Salts are Magnesium *Sulfate*.

[Auventera Two]

I never got a call back from the other vet. Maybe tomorrow.

Hubs and I discussed it at great length tonight and he convinced me to buy the Mag Ox and just do it. I really am nervous about it, but he pretty much gave me a rundown of all the other instances vets/doctors have wanted to do all sorts of tests just for the profit factor. He also said that vets have their own protection in mind so of course they will err on the side of caution by telling me we have to do blood tests, and he has to examine her, etc. This vet knows me quite well though and trusts me to self-treat so that's the part that is a bit confusing to me.

Do any of you guys personally have horses on Mag Ox now?

[EqTrainer]

Shall we list them in alphabetical order or by age/breed?

Just joking...

All my horses get extra MagOx supplementation. The one I am pretty sure is IR, gets a double-dose everday. So far, so good (years). So that's 5.

At the barn I train at, 6 horses, all on it.

--

Keep in mind, all of our horses get free-choice hay and that is their main source of groceries. So then we have to add in energy foods and vitamins/minerals as necessary. Easy keeper does not mean needs no further nutrition.

--

Last year my neighbor asked me to help her sell her cresty necked, overweight, spooky QH. I had her put him on MagOx... she put the whole barn on it after his weight and attitude issues vanished. So there's 6 more.

I am currently considering throwing it over the fence to my other neighbors two ponies with cresty necks and fat rolls.. poor things!

[ML]

With so many ?'s here maybe some time spent at the EquineCushing Yahoo Group may help. Why well for info on Mag ox. or magnesium
just do a search on either word may be helpful. The group seems to chat in two areas IR and Cushings. I just cant think of any other type groups are so Pro on Magnesium then these groups and they are really into diet and blance diet for horses. IE way over my head. Ok the more I read the more info is needed. Maybe this will shed a light on the use of Magnesium in equines.

ML

[EqTrainer]

Thought you would enjoy reading the info about Quiessence on Foxden (the maker) since your vet said that you could put her on *that*...

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www.foxdenequine.com/quies.htm

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[xegeba]

what is the difference?

[Auventera Two]

I printed that page off this morning. That was the first site I visited.

[EqTrainer]

I printed that page off this morning. That was the first site I visited.
It might be interesting to hear his explanation as to why it would be ok to give her a supplement *with* 5 g MagOx but not ok to *just* give her 5 g MagOx. You must be so frustrated!

[xegeba]

If I want to give fatty mare Magnesium... does it matter if it is Mag oX or Mag Sulphate? Anybody?

[EqTrainer]

If I want to give fatty mare Magnesium... does it matter if it is Mag oX or Mag Sulphate? Anybody?
I have NO idea about that. I'd probably stick with the MagOx. Cheap and relatively easy (for one horse the bag lasts indefinately)!

OK.. I just looked it up... NO, don't give it your horse unless she is preeclamptic <LOL> seriously now, don't substitute it.

[xegeba]

chemist! cause Epsom Salts would be a whole lot easier and cheaper.!!!!!!!

[xegeba]

are there any meds. I should not mix with Mag? Antibiotics?

[-bailey0-]

I agree with most of the others. It's so hard to tell with only one picture!

[EqTrainer]

Not cheaper.. MagOx is about $8.00 or so for 50 lbs!

[EqTrainer]

are there any meds. I should not mix with Mag? Antibiotics?

Tetracycline... it hampers the absorption of it.

[Ladybug Hill]

Was going to write that I would not substitute for mag ox and I probably won't as a feed additive due to it's laxative nature, but if you read this article about use in humans you might find some interesting info.

Wonder how bathing a horse in epsom salts daily would help?

http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/about_epsom_salt.htm

[EqTrainer]

No attack! This is a good thing!

This was why I asked you, is she just getting hay and some grain, hay and no grain, hay and some grain + a multi-vitamin... because yes, the rest of the diet has to be balanced.

For example, my horses get a ration balancer, free choice hay + MagOx because their ration balancer does not deliver enough of it. They also get Sel/E because again, it does not deliver enough of it based on my hay/grass.

So now that you have a plan, be sure to monitor for results :) you should see a decrease in the crest on her neck/fatty deposits very quickly - I see results within two weeks after putting them on my program.

Best of luck :)

[Auventera Two]

That's awesome news EqTrainer, thank you for all your help! Without you guys, I wouldn't have even known where to START. :eek: You guys are awesome! :D

[luvmytbs]

Now that sounds like a great reply from a vet. Seems he is truely concerned about treating your horse correctly, even if it is only over the phone.

Obviously I love the fact that he recommends a barefoot trimmer. :)

[Pocket Pony]

What is Equi-Shine?

[Lookout]

That sounds like a great vet. For someone (moi) who frequently disses vets, this one should definitely be held onto and cultivated. What a difference in the conversation between this one and your first guy.