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Sonoma City
Jun. 26, 2012, 02:39 PM
For the rules gurus, how is a jumping "effort" defined on a cross country course in a recognized horse trial? Is an effort defined as an individual fence (ie., if a series of fences is labeled 9 a/b, that would be 2 efforts), or are they grouped (ie., if a series of fences is labeled 9 a/b it would be considered 1 effort).

My question came up when I was reviewing the USEA rule book and it lists Novice as 16-20 jumping efforts cross country. I was at two novice horse trials within the past few weeks. The first only had 15 numbered fences, but there were two combinations, so there were a total of 17 fences on the course. The second horse trial was the other extreme. It had 20 numbered fences, but there was a combination so there were actually 21 fences on the course. Depending on the intention of the rule, it seems like one of the courses was not designed per the USEA rulebook. Either the first course did not have enough efforts or the second course had too many for Novice level. Any thoughts on this?

LAZ
Jun. 26, 2012, 03:04 PM
An effort is jump, so 16 A/B counts as 1 Jump, two efforts, in addition there should be 110 M between efforts (except for A/B combos).

I'm very surprised a TD would not have had the course altered to the maximum number.

Sonoma City
Jun. 26, 2012, 03:15 PM
An effort is jump, so 16 A/B counts as 1 Jump, two efforts, in addition there should be 110 M between efforts (except for A/B combos).

I'm very surprised a TD would not have had the course altered to the maximum number.

Thanks for the explanation. One more question, I'm assuming a water splash-though is considered an effort even though it is not a jump, per se. Is that correct?

LAZ
Jun. 26, 2012, 03:42 PM
Thanks for the explanation. One more question, I'm assuming a water splash-though is considered an effort even though it is not a jump, per se. Is that correct?

If it had a number it is an effort.

groom
Jun. 26, 2012, 03:50 PM
in addition there should be 110 M between efforts (except for A/B combos).




EV 139.2 : "The number of jumping efforts shall not exceed an average of 1 per every 100m commenced."

Your statement seems to imply that the distance between each effort is thusly governed, but it is not.

AshKnoll
Jun. 26, 2012, 07:13 PM
I was wondering the same thing this weekend as my Training XC had 25 efforts. Can the course designers get exceptions to the rule?

MeghanDACVA
Jun. 26, 2012, 07:34 PM
I was wondering the same thing this weekend as my Training XC had 25 efforts. Can the course designers get exceptions to the rule?

EV140.5a: Within the limits shown in Appendix 2, the total number of jumping efforts shall be related to the length of the course

EV139.2: The distances and the speeds demanded are determined by the intended difficulty of the whole Test. Within the limits shown in Appendix 2, Course Designers may choose the distances and speeds most suitable to the terrain and to the quality and standard of preparation of the competitors. The number of jumping efforts shall not exceed an average of 1 per every 100m commenced.

Appendix 2 for Training says 20-24 efforts. So I read both rulles as meaning 24 is the max. Even though the distances listed is 2000-2600 meters meaning one could take it to mean that since you can have UP to 1 jump/100 m you could have up to 26 jumps. The rules still say "within the limits shown in Appendix 2", ie a max of 24 efforts, not to exceed an average of 1 / 100 m.

I would have gone to the TD/Ground Jury and brought it to their attention. They should have removed a jump.

At least that is my interpretation. Janet?

Sonoma City
Jun. 26, 2012, 08:37 PM
EV140.5a: Within the limits shown in Appendix 2, the total number of jumping efforts shall be related to the length of the course

EV139.2: The distances and the speeds demanded are determined by the intended difficulty of the whole Test. Within the limits shown in Appendix 2, Course Designers may choose the distances and speeds most suitable to the terrain and to the quality and standard of preparation of the competitors. The number of jumping efforts shall not exceed an average of 1 per every 100m commenced.

Appendix 2 for Training says 20-24 efforts. So I read both rulles as meaning 24 is the max. Even though the distances listed is 2000-2600 meters meaning one could take it to mean that since you can have UP to 1 jump/100 m you could have up to 26 jumps. The rules still say "within the limits shown in Appendix 2", ie a max of 24 efforts, not to exceed an average of 1 / 100 m.



Interesting. The second course I mentioned which had 21 jumping efforts for Novice was only 1850m, so not only did they exceed the maximum allowable number of efforts, but they also didn't abide by the 1 jump/100m guideline.

LAZ
Jun. 26, 2012, 08:38 PM
EV 139.2 : "The number of jumping efforts shall not exceed an average of 1 per every 100m commenced."

Your statement seems to imply that the distance between each effort is thusly governed, but it is not.

Sorry--I thought it was 110. I realize it isn't exactly a distance between efforts but a guideline; my thought was that unless you've got close to a maximum length course you likely shouldn't have maximum number of efforts--or over the maximum # of efforts. I should have been clearer in expressing my thoughts.

Sonoma City
Jun. 26, 2012, 08:39 PM
I was wondering the same thing this weekend as my Training XC had 25 efforts. Can the course designers get exceptions to the rule?

I think this was the same event as I am talking about too, but I was competing at Novice....Area II?

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Jun. 26, 2012, 10:26 PM
How long has the rule about average number of efforts per 100m been in there?

I'm wondering a bit if that was put in over the past 10 years in an effort to keep upper level courses from being too technical and show jumpy.

While rules can be lovely things, for Novice and Training courses for sure I would first ask, " Was it a good course? Did the horse come off it better educated than he went on it?" If so, but the number of efforts wasn't exactly to spec, why get up in arms??

Sonoma City
Jun. 26, 2012, 10:43 PM
While rules can be lovely things, for Novice and Training courses for sure I would first ask, " Was it a good course? Did the horse come off it better educated than he went on it?" If so, but the number of efforts wasn't exactly to spec, why get up in arms??

Not up in arms, just clarifying the rules. And honestly pretty surprised that the TD or the XC course designer didn't catch it since the rules that the above posters quoted seem pretty cut and dry.

And as far as if it was a good course or not, I don't think it was. The jumps were crammed together so that there was very little galloping space. We fared fine, it was just very different from any other course I had ridden which is what prompted me to check the rules in the first place.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Jun. 26, 2012, 10:51 PM
Fair enough. :) Just musing about the boundaries between rules and guidelines and reasonable shared expectations and requirements and, and , and. Probably bedtime. :)

Beam Me Up
Jun. 26, 2012, 11:11 PM
Think I was there too, at T. The 1st half of the course was very sparse and the 2nd half crammed. It would have probably been that way if they had pulled a jump out, too, but then nobody could have complained about the legality. I think it would have ridden better had the jumps been distributed more evenly, but I guess they were a bit constrained in that their permanent features (bank, water, ditch) were relatively close together.

msghook
Jun. 27, 2012, 12:18 AM
No, there are no exemptions, either to the total number of efforts or to the average of 1 effort per 100 meters. Did you ask the TD? If the TD, GJ and the CD permitted it, then they were in violation of the rules.

Malcolm

Sonoma City
Jun. 27, 2012, 07:47 AM
No, there are no exemptions, either to the total number of efforts or to the average of 1 effort per 100 meters. Did you ask the TD? If the TD, GJ and the CD permitted it, then they were in violation of the rules.

Malcolm

I did not say anything at the time because I didn't check the rule book until after I got home. If I send a note to the the TD, is there any risk that the event wouldn't count for qualifying results since it wasn't run according to the rules? The reason I ask is because I also run competatively, and once I did a 10 miler which after the fact they realized was measured slightly wrong, and it no longer counted as a qualifying race, so messed up a lot of peoples race schedules (including my own). I would hate for people to have gotten results for AECs or area championships here only to have them taken away because I said something! But I do think it's important for the organizers to know, because if someone noticed it, say the morning of the the event before any horses had gone, they probably would have had to fix it before any horses started on course which would have caused confusion and probably delay the schedule. They run another event in the fall so they probably should be made aware of this prior to that event so the same mistake isn't made.

LookmaNohands
Jun. 27, 2012, 08:27 AM
No, there are no exemptions, either to the total number of efforts or to the average of 1 effort per 100 meters. Did you ask the TD? If the TD, GJ and the CD permitted it, then they were in violation of the rules.

Malcolm

Wow, that means my pony's first training level course was "illegal."

She didn't mind a bit, as far as she is concerned more is better!:yes:

Bring it on!