Schooling Incident at Palm Beach

[deerie]

I have been told of a terrible incident that took place yesterday in Palm Beach. Those of you who have contacts down there may want to look into this as well.

A very (very very very) well-known trainer was schooling an Amateur student, and had the student's horse jump a jump which included a metal pipe as one element. Tragically, in some way the pipe was bumped and dislodged ....... and the horse came down on it and was impaled. I am told that the horse bled to death on the scene.

I don't know if the trainer was up, or the owner was up. I do not know if this took place on the showgrounds or on a private jumping field near or adjacent to the showgrounds.

This I DO know.......... I don't really care exactly where it happened! I am nauseated to think that any trainer would "do this" to an animal. By "do this" I mean to take such a chance of injuring or killing an animal by using a metal pipe as any element of a jump. And what of the danger to the rider? And also, I am nauseated to think that any owner would allow or take part in such a foolish exercise.

Another thing I DO know .... there will a major attempt to keep this as quiet as possible. Well, fat chance! And since it cannot be kept quiet (get real!), some folks will be putting their heads together to put the best possible "spin" on this as is possible under the (quite public) circumstances.

Everyone knows that to school over a metal pipe is about the most dangerous thing one can do, because there is ALWAYS the chance that such a terrible result can occur! To me it is unthinkable that anyone can call himself/herself a horseman and take this sort of risk.....

Shame on this trainer! And shame on the horse owner. Everyone knows that "accidents happen...", but this was entirely preventable. It need not have happened! I am sick at the thought of the agony this horse must have gone through. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif

[This message has been edited by deerie (edited 01-22-2000).]

[deerie]

I have been told of a terrible incident that took place yesterday in Palm Beach. Those of you who have contacts down there may want to look into this as well.

A very (very very very) well-known trainer was schooling an Amateur student, and had the student's horse jump a jump which included a metal pipe as one element. Tragically, in some way the pipe was bumped and dislodged ....... and the horse came down on it and was impaled. I am told that the horse bled to death on the scene.

I don't know if the trainer was up, or the owner was up. I do not know if this took place on the showgrounds or on a private jumping field near or adjacent to the showgrounds.

This I DO know.......... I don't really care exactly where it happened! I am nauseated to think that any trainer would "do this" to an animal. By "do this" I mean to take such a chance of injuring or killing an animal by using a metal pipe as any element of a jump. And what of the danger to the rider? And also, I am nauseated to think that any owner would allow or take part in such a foolish exercise.

Another thing I DO know .... there will a major attempt to keep this as quiet as possible. Well, fat chance! And since it cannot be kept quiet (get real!), some folks will be putting their heads together to put the best possible "spin" on this as is possible under the (quite public) circumstances.

Everyone knows that to school over a metal pipe is about the most dangerous thing one can do, because there is ALWAYS the chance that such a terrible result can occur! To me it is unthinkable that anyone can call himself/herself a horseman and take this sort of risk.....

Shame on this trainer! And shame on the horse owner. Everyone knows that "accidents happen...", but this was entirely preventable. It need not have happened! I am sick at the thought of the agony this horse must have gone through. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif

[This message has been edited by deerie (edited 01-22-2000).]

[Tap2Tango]

That is just terrible!!!!!! I hope we can find out more about this situation.

[farmgate]

The incident reportedly took place in one of the private leased schooling rings on the show grounds. The ring did belong to a prominent trainer. The horse had been asked to jump a skinny fence, bumped the pipe, kicking it out in front of him. He was "speared" directly through the heart and lungs and instantly bled to death.

[Jumphigh83]

Holy god! What a horrible thing! I knew when Deerie was move to many words, something big and bad had to have happened. WOW!

[jch]

This is about the saddest thing I have ever hear. How horrible.

[Flash44]

A friend's horse was impaled through the chest on a tree branch while hopping over a jump made of branches in the woods. Horse OK, but needed lots of stitches.

Another's friend's horse slashed her underside between her front legs while jumping a spilt rail fence. She drifted a little and jumped the post, but did not clear it.

I witnessed a horse almost bleed to death when it jumped a metal barrel. We were trail riding, and the horse knocked the barrel with it's front legs, rolling it 180 degrees, then put a hind leg through the rusty underside of the barrel, severing a major blood vessel.

[wtywmn4]

That is absolutely the very WORST thing I have ever heard of!! This needs to be shouted from every point on this internet!!!! This type of thing needs to be made public.

My hand is covering my mouth, and tears are welling up. Picturing a creature who only did what it was asked!!! People truly are IDIOTS! I am sorry to have offended anyone, but there is nothing else to say.

This CANNOT be hushed up. Both the trainer and rider/owner are responsible for doing this. SHAME doesn't cover what they did. the word CRUELTY is what they did. A hapless creature, should not have lost it's life for studity. This is as bad as it gets! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif

[Kate]

Why keep it quiet about who the trainer is? I know people in WPB deciding what trainer to ride with, and I'd like to be able to tell them who! What was the purpose of jumping a metal pipe? Was it used as a pole, horizontally? The more I hear about incidents like these, the more I want to become a horse "Luddite" and disappear from the show scene altogether because I almost can't stand what goes on anymore, ...

[wtywmn4]

So, who was this "trainer", and I say that with breathe held, that deemed it necessary to jump a metal pole?

[deerie]

George Morris.

[hilltop]

I wonder what will come of all this? I mean after all this is not just a big name people, it's the biggest,"George Morris". Mr. Morris was giving a group clinic on a rented ring at the W.E.F. and an A.O. student was the rider. I am not sure the students name or the name of the poor horse. The horse knocked the iron pole infront of him, it lodged in the ground and then the pole went through the chest of the horse and struck the heart. This alone is the cruelest thing I have heard of, what a painful way to die. Amazingly the story gets worse, not only did Mr. Morris continue to teach the next lesson he also kept the iron pole in the course throughout the day and again today! Of all the cases of questionable training in recent months this is by far the cruelest thing I've heard. We wonder where our young horsemen get their questionable training ideas, it seems they get them at the top. All I can say is that this case must be adressed and Mr. Morris must be punished for such an event!

[wtywmn4]

Could not agree more..........

[Louise]

I'm sick to my stomach, I'm angry and I'm frustrated. Why don't people use simple common sense? Seeing that a metal pipe could cause serious damage or death is not exactly rocket science. It doesn't matter if this is George Morris, or Joe Blow down the road, anyone should be able to see that it should not be done!

[Louise]

I was apparently writing while hilltop was posting. I could not agree more!

[hilltop]

I agree anyone should know that this is not safe for not only the horse but also the rider, imagine what would happen if the rider hit this iron pole! The fact that it's George Morris just makes it more amazing. He is the head of the U.S.E.T., the one who is suppose to lead by example, quite an example this is. I have heard from insiders,(people who ride on the team), that he has often preached, "do anything to win" or " make the horse careful no matter what the means, just don't get found out". I have always assumed that this was just talk, but after this summers events and this terrible case of abuse one must wonder what it is that our sport leaders are doing and preaching. Someone must stand up, even to George Morris and make sure that this case gets adressed, not swept under the carpet!

[deerie]

And...... please be mindful of how VERY seriously this would be taken had it been the RIDER who died!

"Serious", as in criminal investigation.... h-e-l-l-l-l-l-o!

It could have just as well been the rider. The legal implications are staggering!

I cannot even comment rationally on the aspect of him proceeding on with the class.... I think that speaks volumes. I can't conceive of being a part of such a nightmare, then continuing on my way - at least not on that day! I guess some people have stronger stomachs than mine....

And by the way, this is NOT a matter of "lack of common sense" ...... GM has been in this business for nearly 50 years.

[Kate]

What I can't believe is that he is still using the pole.

[This message has been edited by Kate (edited 01-23-2000).]

[wtywmn4]

Not only is he head of the USET he sits on the board of the AHSA. He is part and parcel in passing rules that we all follow. Of which, there are very strict ones about what can and cannot be used in the schooling area of a horse show. These rules are based on safety of horse and rider. Why is this not surprising to most of us?

How very tragic and sad. Whatever was a metal pipe doing as part of a jump? I don't understand this... http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif That poor horse will be in my thoughts.

[deerie]

Can't answer that! Perhaps GM himself could write us and tell us exactly WHY he needs to use a metal pole.......? We won't hold our collective breath now, will we?

The irony of it all.... if this is how his schooling is done in front of God and everybody, what do they do back at home?

[carla]

I picture the horse in my mind and it makes me sick.....is it illegal to school with a metal pipe? If so, then I hope the owners have enough sense (cents) to hire the very best lawyer and bleed George to death!!

[hilltop]

All that I can say is that it must be adressed, whether with the U.S.E.T. or the A.H.S.A. it must be adressed. Mr. Morris also can be found jumping triple bars backward in all of his clinics, I can't remember reading anywhere that backward triplebars are good training methods, leagle schooling fences or even safe at all. We must adress I say again, don't let the name stop you. The big guns must play by the rules of not only the sport but by the rules of life. Morals that is!

[Jumping101]

Shame on him. This is someone who helps write the rules that we all show under.
This is someone who knows the rules, yet figures they are only for everyone else.
The past few days have been a free for all in that schooling area....
The AHSA, USET, and the FEI should all be advised of this and proper punishment be given by each of them.
I hope the stewards for this Littlewood Horseshow don't neglect to put it in their reports.
A quick and tough disiplinary action is what is needed to keep this from getting out of hand.

Well said Hilltop. Why in the world was he schooling with a metal pipe? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif

This situation is beyond contemptible. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif I feel so deeply for that poor horse.

[HuntJumpSC]

Hi, everyone! I'm new here & usually frequent the ESearch BB. Just thought I'd put in my 2 cents about Mr. Morris's blatent disregard for safety. I have participated in 4 of his clinics, given the first of January every year in Camden, SC. The last one I did in '99, he had us jumping a narrow set of boxes. There was one horse in the group that was apparently green & he actually took a rubber feed bucket & placed it on top of the already 3' tall & 6' wide jump. Tell me, what would have happened had that poor horse caught that bucket handle with a leg? Methinks George may be getting a little senile in his older years & is forgetting the basic safety that he has preached so loudy for so long. Anyone agree? SUZ

[RZ]

What is his purpose for placing feed buckets on jumps for green horses to jump, and using metal pipes as a jump element? Does he have some cockamamie reason or is it just to take chances and freak out/injure riders and their horses?

[kissy]

That is such a horrible story. did anyone drop out of the clinic? If i watched a horse die in a clnic, i think i would drop out no matter what were the causes of death. even if it was a natural cause or whatever. You'd think the others riders might find this distrubing to watch?! but especially if a watched a horses death which was easily preventable. why then risk your horses life? i can't believe everyone would keep going, over the same jump . . .

[This message has been edited by kissy (edited 01-22-2000).]

[relocatedTXjumpr]

i cant believe this!!!! everyone in the entire horse industry needs to hear about this, they need to know what happens in our sport. practical horseman has him as one of the people that has helped shape this sport. why should he get away with this?!!!? other people had to have seen it, why should he be protected? I realize that some people dont always believe what theyre told when it comes to acts of animal cruelty, but at least they are warned about it. he should be punished, severely!! McLain Ward was kicked out of shows because of things in his horses boots, which shouldnt happen either, but the horse didnt die!! Why should his name protect him?!?!?!

[hilltop]

Kissy, I was thinking the same thing myself. Why did the students continue to go along with this kind of unsafe training after the accident. They even went along with this training the next day. Maybe the first day there was shock, but after a nights sleep you would think that his students, who I am sure are bright people would put a stop to it! I hope that they are not so brainwashed that they truely believe that what happened in O.K. I would also like to know what the owner/rider of the horse is doing about it. I hope that they will bring attention to the case and make sure it is adressed. I have one other question, knowing that this is a common training method of Mr. Morris and who knows what else can anyone have respect for him still?

[wtywmn4]

Alexandra, a metal pole is unforgiving. It hurts when a horse hits it, used as a tuning aid, most horses won't touch the top rail. There is no reason, other than pain for an animal to be tuned in this way! Not only was the animal impaled, he also hurt from hitting the pole. All the more reason this is so horrible..........

[LucianCephus]

I am just stunned...to continue the clinic!

Did you all catch the post on the Sport Horse board about Grande Saber, the stallion who died at Hunterdon not long ago? According to owner Mary Tell, Saber had been quite ill for 6 days and was dying by the time they thought to ship him to a clinic. What is with this guy??? Does he care nothing for the horses? And the clinicians showing up the next day to sit at the feet of God. Damn all of them.

[Anne]

My heart goes out to the horse. Moral of story: no matter who the trainer is, when you're asked to do something you think is unsafe, say NO! Your life or your horse's life may be at stake.

How many horses have to die before Vlad I mean George is stopped? (I also immediately recalled the Tells' doubts about Sabre.)

[Jumping101]

I have been unable to get this terrible situation out of my mind. All of us who love and enjoy horses have now been drawn into this awful, selfish, thoughtless problem.

I think Mr. Morris should immediately leave the show grounds, go home to New Jersey. Place his membership in any associations and committees on hold until this situation is straightned out.


My admiration for this man has been destroyed.

This is an embarresment of monumental proportion to every horseman, everywhere.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

what he did was wrong, but, i hate to say it, i think he will be let off easy because of who he is. its not right and it shouldnt matter who you are in times like these, but thats the way this industry works a lot of the times. this type of "training" needs to stop, NOW!!!

[Tower One]

Can we just slow down?? Just a little? Yes, there was a terrible tragedy in WPB, and quite possibly, rules were violated, but do keep in mind, it was an ACCIDENT! I don't understand the hostility toward one of our true living legends. I AM NOT DEFENDING HIS ACTIONS, I would just hope we can treat the man with the respect he has earned and deserved. He is going to go through terrible times ahead, and if he's guilty, he should be punished, but, can we rid the conversation of the hate? George Morris is a good human being, and this was a HORRIBLE ACCIDENT! Many questions need to be answered, and will be, soon. Was this a private schooling area? Who is in charge when the circuit has yet to begin? IIs a private ring still private, if it's in a public place? What if it had been a bamboo?? Or a regular jump rail? I'M NOT DEFENDING GEORGE, I'm just asking? And hoping we can cool down the hate....it was horrible, gruesome and tragic,but again, IT WAS AN ACCIDENT! thanks for letting me put in my two cents. I just hate to see a man who had such a glorious career have to go thru this, when he should be enjoying what he has done for the industry. thasnks

[LucianCephus]

Ken,

I also hate to see a hero crumble, but he is responsible for his actions at the end of the day. Again, to CONTINUE THE CLINIC! If I had been the owner/rider and watched my horse die, put my horse in harm's way because The George commanded me to do so, I would simply never forgive myself. Look, I don't care HOW much he's helped the "sport"...his devaluing of the animals involved leaves me speechless.

Well said Lucian. Ken, bamboo would have broken upon impact with the horse. As would have wood, most likely.

[This message has been edited by Alexandra (edited 01-22-2000).]

[Tower One]

I agree that he is ultimately responsible, and it's something he'll have to live with, and deal with....I'm just saying to cool the hatred.....you know, if we shout too loud PETA could always step and help. I agree, it was horrible, but let's just be rational, and not hateful. ok?

[relocatedTXjumpr]

i dont understand this!! why does it matter where it happened? why should it matter if it happened at a small local fairground or a big show? IT HAPPENED!! many considered this man a great hero, to me, that makes what he did 10 times as bad, he should have known better!! maybe he didnt plan on it to happen, but he knew what he was doing was wrong, illegal or not, he knew it would hurt the animal to hit it, but that didnt stop him. is this where are sport is headed...?

[bluey23]

Isn't George Morris the trainer who gives advice in the magazine "Practical Horseman."

[Anne]

Yes Bluey, as well as having authored the "bible" of the sport, Hunter Seat Equitation.

[wtywmn4]

Mr Kraus, it's not hatred, it's outrage. There's a big difference! Yes, he has 50+ yrs, thus knowing better does come to mind! Do you have some kind words for the animal who died from this "unfortunate accident"??

[SillyRider]

Oh my gosh!!

How foolish could you be? George, for someone who is sooooo considered about the world today, and how we should look and how are horses should look. What laugh off the old block. Hey George, I have a question for you. Were you just to lazy for safety?

[LucianCephus]

Until this incident, anyway. I, for one, intend to inform the staff at Practical that I will cancel my subscription until such time as this issue is satisfactorily dealt with.

According to the Official Policy of the AHSA,
"Those who choose to serve the American Horse Shows Association, Inc. ("AHSA") whether as volunteers or senior staff personnel are held to the highest standards of conduct." However can they justify this behavior by a member of the Board of Directors?

Heads really are gonna roll.

[Justbay]

Bamboo, Metal? No comparison. No excuse! This is sad. I read this post when it came on earlier this evening and hoped it was not true!

I remember during the Atlanta Olympics I heard of a country that stabled at a private farm nearby the showgrounds that were caught putting wires above the jumps to make their jumpers jump higher prior to the games - They
got "caught" and were not able to compete in the Olympic games. I thought that was bad...but our own "leaders"...

THIS IS SICK! They are animals that TRY to do what humans ask. How far are people willing to go to make "the winner?"

Ken, in response to your PETA comment: Personally I am not fond of PETA - they have their headquarters in my area and do some crazy things, however, if this kind of training" continues, I wouldn't be suprised if we don't find them lying in front of our jumps.

Maybe they should be in the schooling areas. This is a tragedy and this is competely nuts! Someone has to take responsibility.

[LucianCephus]

Amen, Justbay...if we're going to sanction the needless killing of horses, why not just roll PETA in and be done with it?

[hilltop]

You are not going believe this tid-bit! I have been informed that the A.O. rider who was involved returned to Mr. Morris's clinic today with a different horse and jumped this iron pole again! This is confirmed info. To me it unbelievable, what do you al think!

[DijonH]

I first lost respect for Mr. Morris a few years back when he criticized a woman's weight (which was not too heavy by anyone's standards)in his "jumping clinic" column in Practical Horseman. I was enraged by his careless comments, and after several angry readers wrote scathing replies to the magazine, I thought the man might be humbled. No such luck. His rebuttal was arrogant and further emphasized the need to be rail-thin in a sport where eating disorders are disturbingly common.

When i read this bulletin board, I almost cried. The pain the horse experienced and the emotional agony his rider went through are unimaginable. And to think that the arrogant trainer -- the biggest name in the field -- was more concerned with maintaining his (tarnished) image than with consoling the owner/rider and REMOVING THE METAL POLE! I am beyond appalled that a supposedly intelligent person would even use such a pole in a clinic! Would someone please grab that pole and beat GM with it??

Futhermore, the backlash from this incident will affect us all. The AHSA and USET will certainly move to regulate schooling to prevent another tragedy, but what kind of regulations will be placed upon us? Will there come a day when a person cannot even jump or longe a horse in the schooling ring? If stupidity like Mr. Morris's continues, then I think that such a rule would be a possibility.

I think it's about time GM retired.

[Becca]

There are few people whom I adnire as much as George. Thats an honest statement. But I have never been so appalled by his actions. The fact is when it coems to this, I don't care what kind of Idol, hero, or whatever he may be. Not a SOUL doesn't know the dangers of such an action. I don't care what the circumstances were. That is an act of ignorance of behalf of the owner, rider, and more than anyone else, the man who is a 'Living Legend'. You don't get to where mr. Morris is not knowing the rules of the game- ESPECIALLY the safety rules. I don't think I could have handled seeing that. Had it been my horse, I don't know what I'd do. I'm sitting here sobbing like an idiot, and i don't even know who the horse was. But it doesn't matter. Ignorance to such a level where the horse dies such a painful, horrid death is unnacceptable. Accidents happen, I as well as anyone else know this. However, be it accidental as it may, you are BEGGING for an accident with such actions, and irresponsible, STUPID actions. I never, in my entire life thought I would have so much disrespect for someone who I idolized to that degree. I am sickened.

[MBS]

After reading the reply from Luciancephus and referring to a totally different subject (a colic case that seems to have a lot of hearsay), I had to reply to this.

This was a serious accident in Wellington. And until I get all the FACTS I am reserving my judgement. But I must say I have been involved in this sport in one form or another for over 25 years. I have seen many incidents that made me leave and come back. But I have NEVER SEEN GEORGE MORRIS ABUSE A HORSE. I am the first to say his people skills need some improvement but the colic story I believe is just that a story. The care at Hunterdon is exceptional.
Until I get ALL THE FACTS, I am reserving my judgement till then. I don't believe Mr. Morris should get any special treatment if it is PROVEN rules were broken but I do believe that everything that he has done to improve our sport should be taken into consideration (just like in a real world court)when and if considering a penalty.

[Policy of Truth]

Words cannot begin to express my anger and pain from reading this post just now. Strangely, this kind of behavior from GM doesn't surprise me. I've heard stories about how he conducts his clinics..this seems to be the one that takes the cake, though.
I tell ya..I've been outa showing for the past couple of years while raising my colt, and I really thought I'd return to the show ring. I'm not sure if I can handle the insanity, though. Training methods have gotten out of hand, and our governing bodies don't really seem to care.
As far as GM goes, I'd like to ask him how it feels to be responsible for causing such a senseless death of an animal he supposedly likes. I couldn't even bring myself to say "love" in that last sentance because what he did, in my eyes, is the equivilant of abuse.
Funny how a few years ago the rage in the horseworld was against the Walking Horse people regarding their harsh training methods..Mr. Morris is pretty much the same.
I respected him a while back..when I was more naiive. I don't care what his position is in our industry. He should lose it over such unspeakable arrogance. What an aweful person to have done this and continued the clinic..what a dumb and hearless rider to take the same jump with a different horse.

[Kate]

Does anyone have the e-mail addresses to the AHSA directors and to the Practical Horseman editors? This string of messages should be e-mailed to them, to multiple individuals. They should see the collective opinion of us, the public, and their consumers, and they should be made aware immediately.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

practical horseman is at prachorse@aol.com equisearch is at info@equisearch.com

[This message has been edited by beccam86 (edited 01-23-2000).]

[Jody]

Also, Mr. Morris writes articles for Chronicle of the Horse... If some of you have forgotten.... What happened in Palm Beach is a tragedy. A sad story. I wasn't there and refuse to pass judgement until all the facts are out in the open.

[relocatedTXjumpr]

i was reading one of the earlier posts that said that a metal post is used, by some, to teach a horse to jump higher, that it hurts to hit it, now this might sound stupid, but i want to know when scaring the living daylights out of a horse or rider became the right way to train them?!

[Astraled]

gee, extra jump cups on the standards are dangerous but metal poles are fine. It's absolutely sickening! Can't trust anybody these days http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[hunter44]

I agree with Lucian. To wipe the pole off and continue with the lesson like nothing ever happened? Has he no compassion? Think about the poor Adult that knows she killed her horse doing what her trainer told her to do. Maybe she didn't like the idea of jumping the pipe, but she probably trusted the request of her trainer (we are talking about the living legend here) and did it anyway. Now she has to live with this for the rest of her life.

[M. O'Connor]

There is no question in my mind that whatever happened in WPB was a tragic incident that will have reprecussions for everyone involved and for equestrian sports overall. If anyone truly believes that the people who were present and who were responsible for the horse have not been through a life altering experience, they are simply ignorant about the far reaching and insidious effects of experiencing genuine trauma. Piling on the pre-judgement and second-guesses with all the benefits of hindsight is a luxury that can be enjoyed only at long-distance by those who are fortunate enough not to have been involved; doing so does nothing to remedy the situation that has occured, and does not in any way serve to prevent freak accidents from occuring in the future. Though we can all agree that the death of this animal was horrible, who is to say that it was any more horrible than the countless deaths suffered by the cattle that provide the many hides our saddles and bridles and boots are made of? Or more horrible than the slow death from neglect that the many horses we all have known in our pasts suffer after they have passed from hand to hand until old age renders them useless? I can name very few horses that I know from first hand experience have been humanely euthanized after living an entirely good life. I know of a small number of wealthy individuals who have accepted the responsibility of supporting their favorite horses as pensioners in their twighlight years, but few horses I know fall into this category. I can think of many more equally wonderful horses whose ultimate fates are totally unknown to me. We seldom if ever give these situations a second thought. The lightning speed at which you folks have condemned George Morris, et.al, is absolutely breathtaking! Get a grip! I don't know firsthand anything more than that what happened was horrible, but I do know firsthand that top calibre show barns, including Hunterdon, lavish an almost inconcievable level of excellent care upon every horse in every stall. I also know firsthand that George Morris has always commanded the highest level of respect from fellow horsemen worldwide who know him personally. I am not ready to jump on this bandwagon just yet. I have far more confidence in the ultimate integrity of our sport and the people in it, notwithsanding their flaws (we all have flaws) than to do so.

[Becca]

MB Stark- Agreed, in my ENTZIRE life, I have never ever ever seen nor heard of Mr. Morris abusing an animal. Thius a large part of the basis for my respect of him. I too should have withheld judgement until finding out the EXACT story, with all the facts, and I regret not doing so. However, it is a tradgedy, and I hope it is straightened out, and the truth told, be it awful as it may to all of us and THEN i will truely make my judgements.

[LucianCephus]

An interesting post.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by M. O'Connor:
[B]There is no question in my mind that whatever happened in WPB was a tragic incident that will have reprecussions for everyone involved and for equestrian sports overall.

And rightfully so.

"If anyone truly believes that the people who were present and who were responsible for the horse have not been through a life altering experience, they are simply ignorant about the far reaching and insidious effects of experiencing genuine trauma."

Really? How brave of them to forge ahead with the clinic...and continue to use the offending pole. Exactly what "question" does this pose for the horse/rider, I wonder?)

"Piling on the pre-judgement and second-guesses with all the benefits of hindsight is a luxury that can be enjoyed only at long-distance by those who are fortunate enough not to have been involved; doing so does nothing to remedy the situation that has occured, and does not in any way serve to prevent freak accidents from occuring in the future."

"Freak accident?" A professional schooling amateurs over a metal pole???

"Though we can all agree that the death of this animal was horrible, who is to say that it was any more horrible than the countless deaths suffered by the cattle that provide the many hides our saddles and bridles and boots are made of? Or more horrible than the slow death from neglect that the many horses we all have known in our pasts suffer after they have passed from hand to hand until old age renders them useless."

You're right...let's nominate GM
for humanitarian of the year. Incidentally, Tommy Burns was very proud of the humane deaths he affected using electrocution.

I, for one, would be very interested in learning the facts of the matter; but who exactly do you think is going to publish them?

[Louise]

Erin

Does the Chronicle have a reporter on the scene and how soon can we hope to hear something from that individual?

I have never been a fan of George Morris and I spent one of the worst nights of my life last night, tossing and turning, thinking about that poor horse. I'm still angry and disheartened. But, I have to agree that we need to wait until ALL the facts are in, before we make a final judgement. Right now we are basing what we say on hearsay, and I'm sure all of us have had first hand experience with the way stories can grow and change as they are passed from person to person. If what we are hearing is all true, then I would be one of the first to ask that Mr. Morris retire, but, let's give him his fair hearing first.

[Flash44]

Dear Ken,
I would hesitate to describe Geroge Morris as a hero. Yes, he has done so much for show jumping, but there are many examples of his rude and downright mean behavior. He goes way across the line of criticizing a student during a lesson or clinic. Now, most accidents don't just "happen." There are specific circumstances that are set up that allow for the accident to happen. As a horseman, you should be trained to look for "accidents waiting to happen" and do something to remedy the situtation, since we all know how much horses are drawn to accidents. Jumping a metal pole sounds ALOT like an accident waiting to happen. Jumping a bucket sounds ALOT like an accident waiting to happen. I have a fraction of George Morris' knowledge and experience, yet every time i set up a jump, I remove all spare cups and pins and tuck everything in so the horse or rider will not get hung up or injured shoule something unexpected happen. He exibited blatant disregard for the health and welfare of both the horses and his students. How much does someone like that REALLY care about the sport and sportsmanship? And what if it had been the rider that was killed? As horrible as it is to lose a horse, the rider was probably someone's daughter, mother, sister, wife and cherished friend.

[MBS]

LucianCephus--WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THESE FACTS?? You have this man,tried, convicted, and sentenced. Thank god you are not on the AHSA board. And I take a great deal of offense to you comparing George with Tommy Burns.

[AKDragooPhoto]

Well said Flash. Some things can't be avioded but we don't need to go looking for trouble. An accident is exactly that, this is an incident.

My outrage in him continuing on {nothing said for using it in the first place} with the pole brought me a horrible visual of him leaving the dead horse in as an added obsticle. We are just as likely to encounted that in a class as a metal pole or a bucket. But as long as we jump clear and look good doing it what else matters?

There is not a week that goes by that I don't defend the ligitimacy of our sport{s}. Our sport{s} are seen as elitist and lacking in physical demands. We get very little media coverage. How can I continue to defend our sport{s} when the epitome of the them show such a disregard for majority component.

Why is it that those who have risen the highest or can afford the most are the ones that bring shame to all of us who dream big and scrape together the change for a meager lesson? The tv show Law & Order jumped on the insurance fraud/murder angle a few years ago, let's see what they do with this.

God help me if I ever reach the point where I have so much that the horses in my life are dispensible objects.

[buryinghill2]

It is totally impossible for most people who post on this board to even conceive of what is going on in a place like Palm Beach, unless they have been there. The posters on this board are horse lovers,(thankfully), and are trying desperately to pretend that most of the people in Palm Beach are the same. People, get a clue! You are comparing apples with oranges. Sadly, Palm Beach is big business and nothing else. You are naive to think that the average person down there thinks the same way about horses that you do. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are changing hands down there every day. The horses are a commodity, and nothing else. It's pleasantly idealistic to like to think that everyone feels the same way about their horses as you do, but it's not realistic. There is way to much money and greed involved. How many times has George himself been quoted as saying, "Horses are like street cars, there's always another on coming around the corner." I hate to be the voice of reality, but that is the overwhelming attitude down there. Of course I know there are plenty of exceptions, I've worked for great people who truly loved their horses, but they are in the minority.....

[chief]

I just read through all of the posts, and this whole thing just gives me the shivers! I just want to drive out to the barn and hug my horse!

Unfortunately, I have seen and been made to do worse (w/old trainer). The worst thing is that if in that clinic myself, I would have been sitting there thinking, "I do not want to jump over that pole... I want out." But because you are in a GM clinic, it would be perposterous to do so... so you follow everyone else, and jump the pole. I am sure that everyone in the clinic thought, "this is George Morris, he knows what he is doing."

I am going to try to reach my trainer tonight and get the facts- I know she was there with one of our students. When I first saw this story, I could not stop thinking it was my friend's horse... anyone know who the rider was?

How utterly disgusting that he continued the clinic and continued using the pole. This whole "the show must go on" thing is way out of hand. My current trainer is a devout advocate of GM, and sometimes angers her riders (me included) with this attitude... "just have to move on and keep riding." I wonder if this shook her up- I'll post any details I hear from her.

My only "defense" of the man comes from personal experience- I rode in a clinic with him last May (in KY)- we never did anything dangerous or used anything weird or harmful, and I rode in the 4' and up group.

but... the fact that the A/O rider came back the next day? Is she on crack?

[Tap2Tango]

How could the rider get back on another horse the very next day and do it again????????? It would take me months and probably therapy to get back on another horse. That seems so irresponsible on the riders part, let alone on GM's. I would have spoken up if I was asked to do something I wasn't comfortable with. Something seriously needs to be done about this! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

[MBS]

Funny Abby I have NEVER HEARD George use that quote. And I will not stoop to your level and try to make horse people fight amonst ourselves. Just because You don't go to Wellington doesn't give you the right to tell us whether or not WE love and take care of our horses.

[This message has been edited by MB Stark (edited 01-23-2000).]

[Bertie]

Please Abby, don't generalize about people's reactions to this. The people I know that are in WPB right now are very upset about this incident. Generalizations, no matter how well intended, are unfair and undermine the legitimacy of a discussion.

[brilyntrip]

Now I cannot believe that I am saying this but.....I am quite sure that Mr.MOrris didn't think that there would be a problem with the metal pole.Unfortunately he was wrong.I am sure that he was upset by what happened and so forth.I truly believe that any person who has been in this business as long as Mr.Morris has been does it for a love for the animals.Yes perhaps I am giving Mr.Morris too much credit!But I am trying to be fair here.Although there ARE reasons for metal pipe poles being banned from shows(from anywhere that a horse jumps as far as I am concerned).I am literally ill over this ...if it was on private property nothing can be done,if however it was on show grounds that is a different matter.Just remember it is doubtful that George Morris is actually as cold hearted as you all portray him,he is a man and a craggy one at that but.....he probably doesnt know how to handlesituations like this even after all these years,seems logical to us but not him perhaps.As I said before I am quite sure that he didnt think anything would happen.It did and he is going to have to live with this memeory forever.For a very intelligent person to make soo many bad choices in one day is staggering!!! So very sad for the owner and the horse .Really just such a shame.

[MBS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB Stark:
Funny Abby I have NEVER HEARD George use that quote. And I will not stoop to your level and try to make horse people fight amonst ourselves. Just because You don't go to Wellington doesn't give you the right to tell us whether or not WE love and take care of our horses.

[This message has been edited by MB Stark (edited 01-23-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Policy of Truth]

MB-
I think you are clearly missing the point we are collectively making about this entire incident. IT SHOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. Period.
I'm glad you feel as you do about getting all the facts. Just remember this: The simple facts are: 1) a metal pole was being used that any intelligent human being knows is dangerous, 2) The horse was impaled and thus killed on it, and 3) The CLINIC WENT ON..WITH THE METAL POLE!
I really don't care what anyone thinks of GM. What he did that day was inexcusable.
If the rider had even thought for a moment that this might be dangerous, and had the guts to protect herself and the horse, it might have not happened...but we shouldn't expect that since the same rider was back with another horse, she would do the safe and right thing.
How does anyone bounce back so quickly after a tragedy like that to be able to keep on with the SAME CIRCUMSTANCES!!!
You can say all you want in deffence of our comments, but it's clearly obvious who of us care about the animals first, and who of us don't. Pick your side, but pick it carefully.

[buryinghill2]

I said in my post that there are plenty of people who love their horses in Palm Beach, I've worked for them myself. I just think that most people on this board think that everyone is like they are, and love and respect their horses. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Palm Beach is about business for the majority of people there, and for almost all the trainers. As for George's quote, it was published in a major magazine. George is a strong disbeliever in getting emotionally attached to any horse. He would be the first to tell you that, as he has told me on more than one occasion.

[Jaysee]

Why does something like this that is so horrific not surprise me? GM is WAY overrated anyhow. Equitation purveyor, horseman? PLEASE. This is truly the epitomy of any horseman I have ever heard of. No horse deserves that, especially from such a "world renowned" figure. Time to hang up the rowled spurs GM. Or were those the electric spurs?

[Sharman Olshan]

So sad to have heard this news. I miss the horse show friends, but I sure don't miss the "stuff" that interferes with the love of the sport. good luck to all in resolving this matter. Nothing however can replace the loss of a horse.

[BarbarosaXp]

GIZMOs! THAT is what this whole thing is about, IMO! That even the great GM is having to use Gizmos to improve the horse instead of solid, PATIENT training techniques. Right up there with head crunchers which culd make horses fall over for being unable to use their heads and necks properly to balance.
Even super tight standing martingales fall under this. But I bet a lot of you let your trainers put your horses in things that culd hurt them if they stumbled or fell: drawreins over jumps, martingales attached to curb bits, headcrunchers over jumps, etc..

How about outlawing all gizmos from showgrounds? Only legal bits, bridles, saddles and protection equipment allowed--everything else is out and if the horse can't go along without a standing martingale, he and his trainer's out, too.

Standing martingales are ILLEGAL in eventing, why not in hunters? And it isn't because of the "terrain" either--ask an eventer and they'll tell you its because of the JUMPING, period! So dont gripe about GM's use of a pole, which i'll bet tons of your trainers use and then some! Gripe about your entire industry's use of gizmos galore (and throw in the lunge 'til dead which causes so many horses to go lame)--just so you dont have to learn to ride better and will keep paying them to allow you to have easy fun and win ribbons.

[Portia]

Oh my God Oh my God Oh my God.

God rest this poor animal's soul.

[Brue]

I don't know why I continue to be amazed at the angry crowd mentality of the posts on these forums. With the barest of facts everyone is ready to condemn. Yes, it is a horrific accident, but if any of you knew George personally, you would know that this incident did not leave him unaffected. George is a very caring person with horses and other animals. Everyone that knows him knows of his love for his dogs and horses.

I have known George for several years now, and I can assure you that all of the horses in his care are treated with the utmost respect. He is a true horseman, and I have never seen him put ribbons or prize money ahead of what is best for the horse.

Until all of the facts are heard, perhaps everyone can wait before cursing the man.

[J. Turner]

One of the first things I learned when I started riding and jumping was never to jump an unsafe jump. Pony Club beat that into my head. I think in their manual they list unsafe jumps. Number one is metal objects ... poles and unsecured or rusty barrels. Come to think of it, I remember George in his Jumping Clinic criticizing jumps whose extra metal cups hadn't been removed. Talk about a hypocrite (if indeed the rumors are true)!

Don't worry folks ... none of the powers that be will ostracize him. There are many trainers we look on as reputable who are associates of criminals like Barney Ward. For instance, the Schlusemeyers are clients of Barney, for instance. Hillary has gotten jumpers from him. Rodney Jenkins has ridden for Mr. Gill who now is partners with McLain. Jane Forbes Clark has Leslie ride her jumpers and hunters. Leslie works with George. Think Leslie would disassociate herself from George? NOT. So many people are willingly and publically associated with the tainted of the horse world -- ones set down for abuse, meds, killing horses, etc. -- it's really a sham. Shall we play "Six Degrees of Separation? Darn it, we don't even need six. Try three. Name a name.

[carla]

I just don't understand....if I were the A/O that participated in the clinic and just witnessed the horific death of my horse I would have marched myself out of that ring, never to return.....many of us feel for that rider....but obviously, the rider must not feel all that bad if she/he returned on a different mount to continue in the clinic..how crazy is that? does she/he fear the wrath of George? and what about the rest of the riders? wouldn't you be a bit concerned that it could happen to you? maybe they figured since they weren't going to get their money back ( I assumed they paid for the clinic) they might as well ride in it...I don't know, it's senseless to me.

[KitBC]

HORSES ARE NEVER SAFE. Accidents will ALWAYS happen, no matter how much care is taken & no matter what kind of equipment is used. THAT SAID, I AGREE THAT THERE IS TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON WINNING, WINNING, WINNING. A horse show should exhibit the NATURAL TALENTS OF THE HORSE, not use gimmicks to make them jump better, tighter, higher, or whatever. A horse's jump can be enhanced at home with the skillful use of safe & reliable gymnastics, which actually teach a horse how to jump better, not scare him into it. George Morris is a master at gymnastics. I regret that he felt the need to resort to a gimmick.

I am saddened that the emphasis in the hunter/jumper world is on winning. This is brought about in part by so many participants thinking that they can pay their way to a blue ribbon. Well, it seems that they can -- our top trainers know how to make a good horse show even better. Is this really what we want our horses to do for us?

We make fun of the Saddlebred people for using ginger, chains, and God knows what else to make their horses act & appear in the desired fashion. It appears that we should no longer make fun of them, and perhaps we should start admiring the Arabian freestyle shows (read this facetiously!) -- where the natural beauty of the horse is truly at heart.

[This message has been edited by KitBC (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Anne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KitBC:
It appears that we should no longer make fun of them, and perhaps we should start admiring the Arabian freestyle shows -- where the natural beauty of the horse is truly at heart. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kit, while I agree with your points, I want to point out that there are bad apples in every barrel. A prime example if the very prominent Arabian halter trainer who had one of his colt's necks (in the throatlatch area) surgically altered so that he better fit the ideal that the halter judges were looking for. No discipline is without abuse.

[magisteel]

Shame on George Morris. He should resign from his positions. We live in a country
too great to tolerate this kind of incident from one of it's leaders. Mr. Morris should have had enough experience not to have such a horrible, tragic accident as this occur. His expertease alone should have kept this from happening.

[Dee]

J.Turner, I agree completely. Usually, I drop in here just to read in quiet amusement the really mundane things that upset us horsefolk....but this blows my mind. GM says to jump a metal pole which kills a horse, then press on like, shake it off, it happens...Like J. Turner, I grew up a Pony Clubber. It's a shame we all couldn't grow up keeping the love of horses and horsemanship first in our minds. I think some need to think about why they are showing in the first place. Is the horse the tool or the reason?

[SillyRider]

I my mind this was NO accident...this whole thing could have been provented. Everyone keeps referring to it as an accident, it was not an accident, it was a stupid thing to do for both the rider and George Morris.

To MB - Morris may not physically abuse horses, but he mentally tears at both horse and rider, and that too is abuse...mental abuse/verbal abuse. For me it is just as bad.

We have talked about Morris's clinics, we have talked about watching people roll around in the dirt at his clinics, and now we talk about an act that caused an unnecessary death of a horse at other one of his clinics. What next?

[This message has been edited by SillyRider (edited 01-23-2000).]

[Amateur Owner]

I think some of these 'upper' level coaches should remember one thing. They still put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us.

I am sure those close to the source will label this unfortunate situation as an 'accident'. However, as we all know....car insurance companies no longer refer to claims as 'accidents'. They now call them 'collisions'....because at the end of the day - there is always someone who was responsible for the 'collision'.

In this case, and if things have been reported correctly so far ...then this was an 'accident waiting to happen'......and certainly the trainer should have known better. On the other hand...perhaps the horse was a 'bit overweight'.....and just didn't fit that 'PERFECT' picture.....

Even in Canada....we are not removed from the politics that surround the hunter ring. It is VERY disappointing to see the emphasis on winning. Does it make a difference which coach you have standing by the side of the ring...as you go around the course - as to where you will place?? Does the judge notice that your trainer is 'so & so' and is the ranking any different because of this?? These are questions that many riders choose to ignore - just to say they rider with 'such & so' barn. If all they want is a box of ribbons...go to the local trophy shop and order some - and let the rest of us horse enthusiasts enjoy the sport......without causing undo pain and suffering to the horses.

[magisteel]

I have read everything that has been posted here and many thoughts go through my head at the same time. Some of you have one horse that means the world to you. You love it with all your heart and think of it as a part of you and your life. Others have many horses and by this is it indicates the same thing. Horses are a great part of you and your life.

Horse showing is a particularly demanding sport that causes riders to seek answers to many problems they have trying to make their horse a winner. People pay astronomical amounts of money for GELDINGS hoping to own ar ride a top notch winner. WINNING becomes more important than the animal.

The incident we are reading about is such a case. The saddest part is that the horse did not ask to be there. It was required to be there by a rider wishing to become a winner. This rider was looking to one of the highest level trainers for help to achieve success...not the tragic loss which occurred. The trainer was thoughtless in his process to create a winner. Effort to correct a problem went sour.... by thoughtlessness carelessness, and complacent behavior has infuriated horse lovers everywhere.

We have lost horses by some strange incidents. We have not discussed things with others. Our sadness is our own. We have received criticism as sometimes happens. However, we would not be riding and working as hard as we do if it were not for our love of these magnificent animals.

To be a fly on the wall would be interesting right now to see how all involved in the tragic incident really reacted and how they really feel. Loss of a horse is always hard. But, we go on.

Poor decisions were made. Strong responses have been said. Remorse should have been shown. Leaders have a responsibility to apply these efforts. Without it they loose their respect of those around them.. I see that here. Truely, a result of many of the thoughts expressed before me. Many of them are probably close to correct. Sad isn't it?

[Tower One]

My thanks to all on the board who have toned down the rhetoric, and are now discussing in which direction we may be headed, in the wake of this incident. many questions need to be answered, and the only way to an adequate solution, is open, non-hostile communication. Regardless where you stand on this issue, you must feel as I do, that this is certainly a very sad way to start the circuit, and the new millenium. Thanks again. ken

[Banks]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
no words can express what i am feeling

[wtywmn4]

Once again Ken, it looks if you missed why everyone is up in arms. The "vigilanty" mentality that someone referred to is not what I read here. Outrage, horror, appalled by the senselessness of what happened. Emotions that humans have when they feel strongly about things! There is no rhetoric, only people letting their feelings out. In any tragedy this needs to occur! And this is a tragedy, make no mistake.

What happens from here, by the powers that be, will tell all of us in what direction our industry wants to head. Let's hope, it's a good path to follow.....

[hilltop]

The word from Palm Beach is that even though people are upset about the accident, nothing is being done. No one has adressed the situation or put forth any charges.It looks like old G.M. is coasting on his name again. I would be willing to bet that he gets away with this scott free and that no one even remembers it in a few months, it will be great George again!

[Portia]

I've always, always been taught that metal poles are extremely dangerous. That said, this is a question for those far more knowledgeable than me about training practices, and I'll try to ask it objectively.

Why use a metal pole in a clinic with many horses and riders with whom, presumably, the clinician is not familiar, and why use it for every horse? If it is meant to be a means of making a horse more careful, why use it in a situation where you don't know whether the horses you are dealing with are careful or not? I don't see the purpose of using it in a clinic situation.

[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 01-23-2000).]

[sisou]

As a non-hunter-jumper person, what would they have usually used for jumping at a clinic like this? Wood, or plastic? I us rubber ties and a wooden post to lunge my horse over. One more question: if nothing tragic had happened at this clinic, would anyone have said anything to the man about the dangers of using metal? Did anyone bother to complain about the metal before they began jumping....or was everyone taking the mind-my-own-business approach? I dont even know who this man is! Is he that intimidating that no one can even ask him a question? Who is he god himself or something? (oops..I mean Col. Podhajsky ) or maybe its the audience, was it made up of all children or all adults so terrified they cant even speak up? If I saw something dangerous I would speak up and say it, , I could care less who the man was. I'm just trying to get a better picture of the whole picture here.

[Kim]

I am deeply saddened to hear about this accident.

I competed in the hunters for seevral years, and really
love the whole "hunter" look and style. However, it has
become less and less about love of horses in my opinion.
I have seen so many horses pushed beyong their limits until
they became sick or injured. I've seen top hunters who were
unsound before they reached their 8th birthday - simply
from bring jumped, and jumped, and jumped. My own horse was
pushed until she became physically ill - which led me to
leave the hunter world. People were switching
horses like people trade in cars; several people
I knew had 5 or 6 different horses in a period
of three years.

I took up dressage because the emphasis
seems to be much more on the horse/human bond, and that is
what's most important to me. It's a shame, because
there are certainly many hunter/jumper people
who really do love thier horses first and
foremost. And tehre are wonderful horsemen -
like Ian Millar, for example - who exemplify
what a true horseman should be.

I have had one horse for the past fourteen years,
and hope to keep her for many more. She is not only
a great horse, but a cherished friend. :-)
Somehow we need to put the "horse" back in
"horsemanship." The horse should always come first.

Kim

[Tower One]

To, WTYWMN4. Yes, i do understand the outrage, and unlike others on this board I do feel that George will face consequences, regardless of his stature. But a good point is made in a post by sisou, why was nothing said when the pole was seen in use. by the way, questions that need answered include that one, had someone wanted to, who was the authority to report to? Would they be able to stop it legally? With private facilites, on public showgrounds, there are immediate problems that need addressing. During circuit, stewards have 24/7 access via a signed release. How many other stables might have been scrambling to hide THEIR metal poles....it's tragic, and i hope we can handle this from within(with no assistance from PETA) for example. And for the person that reported no one was doing anything about, and things were business as usual, where is tha and t information coming from??? Every one I talked to yesterday and today cares very much about what has happened

[tess]

What are opinions here on William Steinkraus?
His book, (I will print the quote when I get a chance) specifically supports the use of metal poles in schooling--in essence he seems to feel that this is far more of a humane method to teach a horse to be careful, particularly because of the "ring" that is caused in a rap rather than other methods such as manual poling, wires, etc. All I can say on this without knowing any of the individuals or seeing it is that if you choose to do this sport and work with animals there are risks to both. I would prefer to jump my horse over asolid jumps w/ gymnasitics to teach it and is it possible that this is what a metal pole is attempting to achieve?

I have seen horses and riders injured/killed in many freak accidents-this is the reality of the sport-it is a risk sport. What troubles me now more than ever is the lack of riding experience that people/horse no longer experience, many have never been on a hunt or even trail, so trainers are left to try and create/simulate something artificial to create respect in the horses jump and in the riders ability.

I have read GM's book and articles and have had agreed on some of his beliefs & disagreed w/others. I have alway thought that while he comes off hard headed and a bit too opinionated, at least he appears to stand by what he says and not hide and lie (maybe this is why he continued w/ the pole). I find other actions I have read about even more offending ivolving drugs and other methods that are sly and hidden.

I could be completely wrong on this and am curious reading others opinions as well. However I do agree w/ Mr. Kraus, PETA would love this-but before you encourage them to use it may be at least some one who was there should be allowed to speak,
including Mr. Morris.

[Tower One]

sorry. i forgot to pass along an observation I've made, again, being a new computer user and a rookie at this, but I've found a trend that is somewhat revealing, and maybe a little disturbing, the ones that seem to spew venom do not list their names in their profiles. Thoughts on that?

[This message has been edited by kenneth kraus (edited 01-23-2000).]

[Trixie]

Yes. Accidents do happen.
But accidents can be prevented.
As a hunter rider who truly loves riding hunters, or even as a rider in general or any person with common sense, this could have been prevented.
My trainer always does her best to make the jumps safe for us. We use PVC poles or wood poles, as does every single horse show around us I believe, and we compete in the Maryland and Virginia area, which is generally regarded as a large horse show area.
Personally I think that the father of hunters should know better. He criticizes us for our stupidity about jump cups, but uses something extremely hazardous, which is far more likely to harm anyone than jump cups. I've never seen or heard of a jump cup directly killing a horse.
But a metal pole can kill a horse very easily.

[retired]

I have a hard time beleieving that most horse show people don't know what goes on in the backgroung, or at night, or any other time others arn't around. I have seen "promonent" trainers do bad things for years. This is nothing new!! Maybe this will be a wake up call. These guys have been doing illegal stuff for ever! I have been RETIRED from the show ring for the past 20 years because of these reasons. I still have some very beautiful and sought after horses, but I don't let them go until they are absoutely trained. Therefore they dont get abused(hopefully) when they don't behave.
I think that the horse industry is a disgrace.

[J. Turner]

Steinkraus approves of metal poles??? Is this in one of his books? In what context?

[Pat]

Rather than listing myself along with the zillion "me too's"; I'll just pick on a few points that have caught my eye will trying to catch up.

I'm having a little trouble with those few who feel it was just an accident. The use of that word implies that the death of the horse was an unforseeable event AND that all NORMAL precautions had been taken. I'm not talking about swathing the jumps in sheet cotton, but removing the obvious dangers. Metal poles simply have NO place in the schooling ring. That is why wood poles have always bee used to construct courses. If You want to "pole" a horse, atleast do it the right way, get out the bamboo. I don't care much for the practice, but at least the bamboo is the safer approach. Only safER because I've seen some horrific wreaks with bamboo.

I'm sure if the same metal pole was found in a paddock, GM would instantly deem it a danger and command a Mexican to remove it. I too find it funny that he would instruct us in his many writings to remove the unused cups from jumps. Funny? Sad? I'm not sure.

I don't think this board is a bunch of vigilantes, but I do think GM should be hung up the highest flag pole by his tightie whities. The whole thing was COMPLETLY avoidable, but he feels that he is soooo far above the rest of us that nothing can touch him. WRONG!! The laws of physics still apply at Hunterdon the same as at the lowliest hack barn. It would seem he has managed to brain wash all his students into believing he is always right. That fact that the A/O in question returned on a new horse on another day is proof.

Oh, and Ken, my full name is not on my profile for one reason, I have no idea who you are, so you don't need to know me. If we run into each other at a show, fine, it's a neutral place, possibly hundred of miles form home. I don't however need someone taking my name and my hometown off the profile and then finding my actual address. Between National 411 and Expedia.com, any psycho can find any one of us with a minimum of information. Complete with turn by turn directions.

[Fairview Horse Center]

My concern would be with the continuation of lessons. Accidents do happen, but we learn from them, and are saddened by them. I know that if a horse or rider was seriously injured or killed at my show, I would send everyone home. Maybe cancel the rest for the year. But has anyone seen the jump in question? Please describe it. Metal is used in construction of a lot of horse equipment. Many Dressage arenas have metal pipes or wooden or plastic stakes. Wood will NOT break. Many gates have uprite supports. A friend of mine had a horse that fell on a surveyors stake on the trail. That stake missed his heart by less than an inch, and it did not break. A 1" by 1" stake. Another friend was on a trail, the horse spooked into a rotted overturned tree root. That wood didn't break either, and left a huge hole in the horses chest. I heard of a person that had a post in between stall walls sticking up higher than the wall. They came out one morning to find their horse impaled on it. These are nightmares, and horrible accidents that need to be learned from with safer jump construction, but I need more information before attacking anyone.

[Bethe Mounce]

Maybe in the dressage discipline there isn't so much of what we see in the hunter/jumper discipline is because in dressage there's not much money???? Not alot of prize money that's for sure. Perhaps it keeps dressage more "grounded?" Just a thought........

[LucianCephus]

Excuse me, is someone STOPPING Morris from speaking???? C'mon, George, we're keen to hear your side.

[rusti]

God, what a horrible thing to happen. I've seen jumper people pole horses to make them pick up their feet and even use that metal pole-which I thought was illegal. Even as a junior rider I never allowed any trainer to do those things to any of my horse. And when we were recently at a jumper clinic where this was done to a horse(not mine) we packed up and left. I personally don't want any part of a trainer who uses those methods. A blue ribbon isn't worth it-not then or now. I think in addition to being a cruel "training aid" it also amount to lying to the horse. the point to the pole is that the horse can't see it-only the regular part of the jump- he therefore hits the pole causing pain and jumps higher in the ring. Here the rider he trusts has presented him to a jump which he has tried to clear only to find they raise the jump and bang his legs-how unfair to him!
It doesn't surprise me that this occurs-when discussing what happened with B Ward a well known riders only comment was-I can't believe anyone told.
I wish i could believe that George Morris, Barney Ward are the exceptions out there but somehow I doubt it. I've seen too much of the same thing going on. Ultimatly the only one who can protect our horses is us. If something isn't right or cruel-speak up and say no! Hopefully reputations aside, someone will pay for this-obviously the horse paid dearly for doing what he' was asked. Anyone who has first hand knowlege interested in reporting it or writing to Practical Horseman where George is a contributer- I'd be interested in seeing if it made print.

[Megan]

I cant believe this! It might have been an accident, and I'm certainly not jumping on the bandwagon to have George impaled too, at least not yet. But I think this was a horrible accident that could have easily been prevented by following the simple rules of safety he preaches to all of us. I remember a few years ago in Practical he strongly reprimanded a woman who had an empty jump cup, a reachy groundline, and a pole under the oxer. That is a safe jump compared to jumping a 3' fence with a bucket over it, or a metal pole! I feel so bad for the poor horse,and the trusting rider. I guess I don't know what to say! I can't believe the God of our sport would fall to that level, I want to believe it was just an accident, but it wasn't cuz it could have easily been prevented! I am soo shocked and saddened and horrified!

[BarbarosaXp]

How come only one person equated the metal pole with just another gizmo/gimmick? How can you all be so hypocritical? Are you embarassed that you too use tight standing martingales and head crunchers? I heard of a pony that flipped over just doing its warm up circle at an indoor show becase it stumbled and couldn't get is balance back because of its martingale. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A METAL POLE AND A TIGHT MARTINGALE? The pony which falls from the martingale could easily fall on its rider or on something that would impale it just like the pole did this horse and yet you guys use tight martingales all the time. At least my husband's crowd calls it like it is--they call them 'tie downs', plain and simple. You guys tie your horses heads down in all sorts of ways until their backs hurt and their hocks are bad but you dont see that as a problem. This was a freak accident just like the flipover pony was, both dangerous and avoidable, both shuld be treated alike.

[magisteel]

The VENOM being thrown around this place is pitiful. If you are angry about the loss of this horse don't take it out on each other. We all have our thoughts and feelings about this situation and we all want some kind of recourse toward GM.

The proper recourse in answer to Kenneth's question about how to handle this is for thw owner and rider of the horse to sue GM due to neglegence (a tennis ball should have been place on the end of the pole). This is not an uncommon practice. No tennis ball is

[TBLover]

With respect to Steinkraus on poling, you have to read what he said in context. Here is the excerpt relating to poling from his book, Riding and Jumping (1969 edition, pages 84-88):
"Through the years I have listened to countless discussions of the pros and cons of poling, and recognize full well what violent emotions are stirred in the hears of many horse people whenever the subject is introduced. This is no doubt why most books on jumping either avoid the subject, or dismiss it with a few critical lines. Nonetheless, it remains very much one of the facts of the show jumper's life .... and so I must risk incurring the wrat of some of the more rabid disputants on the subject by exploring it here at some length.
Poling, like severe bits, sharp spurs or even high collection, is simply another "razor in the monkey's hand". True, one can condemtn all of these things in toto by arguing that they are likely to be done inexpertly, injudiciously, and perhaps cruelly by the majority of people who attempt to use them. ... But be that as it may, some of the corrective techniques that come under the general heading of poloing can accomplish, in the hands of a skillful and experienced horseman, results that are beneficial and almost indispensible, under certain circumstances."
Steinkraus then goes on to describe the current restrictions on poling on the show grounds, but goes to say "there still remains a wide range of practices that are employed at home -- tack poles, tack rails, the rail on pulleys or held by two men, and bailing wire... What do all these devices hope to achieve? The obvious answer is "more clean rounds". This hope is often frustrated in practice, for poling can produce results that range from excellent to atrocious, depending on the skill and discretion with which it is employed. Some forms of poling can correct faults in a horse's jumping form, and can renew the respect of the careless horse for his fences -- but poling can also destroy a horse's confidence and turn him into a stopper of a lunatic. ...
Steinkraus then goes on to say that in the process of daily schooling, horses often learn "that its not terribly important to jump fences absolutely clean. Since it must be an accepted fact of the horse's life in the show ring that fences do have to be respected, how is that result to be achieved? He then goes on to discuss the techniques that can be used to "develop a horse who will try to jump clean (because life is awfully short to spend waiting for that wonderful, rare creature, the horse who is born with an instinct to jump everything clean). Of these techniques, he says, "the poling techniques that involve a person are the least satisfactory, for aside from the fact that the person can be seen, there is also a great possiblity of human error.."
Then he goes on to say "Wire and the light iron pipe are better, for they will not punish the horse for a perfect jump, and they eliminate the factor of human error. (The pipe that is offset on the near side of the fence, just even with the top rail, can be very helpful in correct the horse who is careless about bending his knees). However, they too can usually be seen by the horse, and if they are employed very often he will learn to discriminate between fences that have wire or a pipe near them and those that don't."
Finally, he goes on the consider the "simplest means of discouraging carelessness, the solid fence and the tack rail." He says solid fences have a serious disadvantage -- they penalize the bad mistake very severely, with a big knee or perhaps a fall.." Finally he considers the tack rail and says "The term has always seemed to me to have a particularly sinister sound -- but if some artificial aid must be used to achieve the rather artificial end of absolutely clean jumping, and we are not afraid to consider it dispassionately, it probably has the most to recommend it. The normal rail that has been studded with small and very short nails will never punish a correct jump, but penalizes only carelessness. Furthermore, its appearance is perfectly normal, it involves no human agency, and requires no change at all in the riders's style. I have never used it very much, and perfer to err on the side of using too few rather than too many artificial aids, but the few people I have observed who used it consistently seem to me to have produced the most satisfactory results."

[SingAlongQuillo]

This is incredibly horrible, and I'm cursed with an overactive imagination so the first thing I saw in my mind when I read it was the mare I rode up until november landing on a metal pole....

It's pretty pathetic, too, when people like myself, so beginner that I've never jumped over 2'6 and don't even own a horse, know better than to ever send a horse over anything like a metal pole, or a pole with nails, or anything like that, yet prominent trainers and riders who have had to have ridden for a while are more than willing to do so, and to continue doing so in the aftermath of a tragic event involving the offending object. It's cruel, and heartless, and the list goes on.

In a way I can understand the rider going back to ride in the clinic the next day, I've been in a similar (but much much less tragic, althought I doubt Sing agrees) situation when the abovementioned mare ripped her face open in the horse trailer before leaving for a show... ended up taking another horse. Though that's on such a lower level it can't really be compared, I can see why the rider would want to go back with another horse, if she paid good money or wanted the experience of the clinic, or whatever. But jumping the pole again is heartless.

Food for thought, though: If it hadn't been in a George Morris clinic that this had happened, if it had been in a clinic run by someone that virtually nobody has heard of, would it even be as discussed in this forum as it has been? Would anybody even have known?

*sigh* I can't imagine ever showing in the big shows. Going to small shows that cover many disciplines (sometimes going to a dressage/jumping, sometimes flat/hunter, sometimes all, etc) and riding in them all is probably as far as I'd ever get... It's just too political at the higher levels, and the stuff happening in the dark corner of the barn is horrible, even if it's a minority that does it. you have to wonder if these people even *think* of the horse as a living breathing FEELING partner, one who cares about what happens to him but isn't given much of a choice as to what he has to do, or when he can stop. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif So much for quitting when it isn't fun anymore, not like the horse has much of a choice, and then look what happens /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[slc2]

Well, i think part of the issue of where it happened, and when, is what exact legal right do any of the organizations have to impose sanctions or penalties on a person who, in this country, is involved in the negligent death of a horse OUTSIDE of a horse show, and I think the answer is that legally, none of our horse show organizations have much legal right to sanction someone for something done outside of a horse show.

Now, I think that the AHSA ran into trouble trying to sanction Lindemann because he hadn't actually been convicted of anything at that point in time - this is how dicey the law is - I think they could legally have barred him from, for example, competing at the Olympics and maybe a lot of other things had he been convicted at that point - but I'm not sure the issues were ever all that clear or easy to sort out legally.

Lindemann threatened to sue the AHSA and destroy it financially if they barred him - and he might have been able to, too, actually, given a little different timing to things.

Here's the problem. Our organizations are EXTREMELY limited in what they are legally allowed to do. These rights are limited by laws, and have at least something to do with the organizations' charters and how they are worded.

NOW - if every single member of AHSA/USET and other organizations wrote in and said they wanted George Morris barred from coaching or officiating, judging, etc., the organizations STILL couldn't do much, legally, the way I understand it.

HOWEVER - if people want to do something instead, people can not take his clinics, lessons, buy his horses, hire him to judge, subscribe to magazines he writes for (and tell the magazine editor why) and about 250 other things that would lessen his income, and, essentially turn him into a nothing.

BECAUSE in the end it's you and me that pay his bills and allow him to continue as a presence in the horse world. NOT the organizations. The owner of this horse paid him to coach her, and he's already known to be quite ruthless, and has been known to be for many many years - - what does that say about all of us - maybe it's US that create this GODS, and maybe it's us that have to destroy them.

[adp]

kenneth kraus

I don't read hatred in any of these posts. There is a difference between outrage, blind outrage and justified outrage, and hatred. And grief. There is alot of grief and pain for the horse.

[Louise]

I am so torn over this. My emotions say "condem", my reason says "wait until the entire story comes out". My mind keeps playing the picture of what the last minutes of that innocent animal's life must have been like. The worst part though is the feeling that there is nothing that we can do, except make sure that our own horses are never placed in a situation like that. But, maybe that's the crux of the whole matter. There are always people who will provide what other people want, right or wrong. While it may be that Morris bears fault in this incident, I don't think that the owners and rider of this animal are free of blame. Especially if it is true that they came back the next day for more of the same. I'm not a h/j rider, I don't understand where this pole was and someone, I'm sorry I can't remember who, said something about a tennis ball that I absolutely did not understand. I just give thanks that my two are safe with a trainer who has the utmost respect for every living creature, and that I have enough sense to keep an eye on them anyway.

And, Bethe, while I think you have hit the nail on the head about dressage and money, I think, with it being the fastest growing segment of the riding industry, we had better keep an eye on our own back yard.

[magisteel]

The common practice when using a metal pole is to place a tennis ball on each end of the pole in order to prevent an accident like the one that happened to the horse mentioned in the accident.

I do not practice this nor does anyone where I ride. It is oldtimers knowledge.

The suggestion that all the horsepeople stop supporting the George Morris clinics and refuse to subscribe to magazines with his articles etc. is the best response so far.

The rider can sue GM and promote publicity to keep all informed about the situation but they probably will not do so.

It is all really too ugly and too darn sad.

[Gry2Yng]

My feelings on poling aside, before anyone gets too fired up about how "obviously dangerous" jumping a metal pole is, remember this was not something that the trainer thought up the day the incident happened, and it may not have been the first time the rider had used the technique. GM has been training horses for a long time and I would imagine he has some experience "sharpening" horses. It is nothing new in the world of SJ - we just suddenly have a tragic incident that calls our attention to the practice.

Riders who jump 2'6" 2-3 times per week (not to single out any post, just as an example) are different than some of the professional about whom we are speaking. Try not to get too righteous about the fact that "even you know better". Statements such as that are very naive.

[slc2]

it is exactly where your sport is headed, and has been for many years.

[Monica S]

This a quote from a post above :"I have known George for several years now, and I can assure you that all of the horses in his care are treated with the utmost respect. He is a true horseman, and I have never seen him put ribbons or prize money ahead of what is best for the horse."

I disagree with the term 'true horseman' - because this single incident proves that is not correct. A true horseman does not resort to 'tricks' to get the job done. A true horseman would not apply a training technique that should be reserved for only rare cases, If at All, accross the board to an entire clinic of riders, and on at least 2 different days. REgarding respect for the horse, again, I question that since this technique shows a lack of respect for the horse. It assumes that the horse just isn't trying hard enough, and if the trainer 'punishes' the horse sharply enough, the horse will be more honorable in his efforts. No horse likes to hit a jump, but when they are tired or sore or just jaded, they don't make their best effort. Then the solution is to let them rest, make them sounder, or refresh their minds. But that requires that the trainer believe in his horses. You have to believe that given the chance, the horse will try hard to do well, if it is possible for him to do what you ask. And a true horseman who respects his horses, does indeed believe that. When a trainer or rider begins to think differently, then the fight is on. Now it is necessary to 'force' the horse to try, or Make him behave - through intimidation, pain or leverage. And to be honest, I know of numerous cases where Mr Morris has used these techniques on riders in his clinics. Therefore he doesn't even believe that a human who has chosen to be in his class, and paid large sums of money will try hard enough if Mr GM doesn't throw dirt clods at them, or insult them or ridicule them. So how can he possibly be expected to believe more of the horse who didn't make any effort to choose to be there?

To those of you who don't have any first hand experience in the horse show world, and cannot understand how a group of riders could willingly endanger themselves and their horses, let me try to explain. When a rider is trying to establish themselves in the very political world of showing - (especially the Hunter jumper world but other areas of horse showing are equally steeped in who knows whom and who is seen with whom.) it is critical to be with the "IN Crowd". To question GM's authority wouldn't just get them thrown out of the clinic with no refund of $1000 invested to be there, but it would damage the rider's chances of ever moving up in the world. What chance would such a rider have of Ever making the USET team? Do you think that Lord George would allow them into his private party after publically questioning his training techniques? And that explains why the rider of the dead horse came back the next day. She had to prove herself 'mentally tough' and up to GM's standards. And let us realize that every one of these riders is already in the mental group that horses are really furry motercycles, and while you might be really fond of one, they are replacible tools to the trade. And why didn't George take the pole out of the ring? Because to do so would be tantamount to admitting guilt. If he had taken it out of the ring, it would indicate that he had done something wrong in using it in the first place, and really, based on what I know of this man, there is no way on earth he would ever admit to that.

Now, what to do about this??? The first thing we need to decide is what are we teaching our Jr riders about winning? What are we saying about respect for our horses? Do we really think that a stronger bit, a tighter martingale, or sharper spurs will make the difference? Do we really believe that these creatures have to be intimidated into giving us more? Doesn't anyone realize that they are already being incredibly generous in just permitting us to ride at all? The nature of the horse is to give and try and accept. And they do. And the thanks that they receive in return is ignorance, neglect, physical and mental abuse and punishment. We need to teach our Jr's better than that.

To the poster who questions the difference between our outrage at this episode and our acceptance of neglect - well for me there is no difference. I have rescued numerous horses, who were starved, neglected, abused and poorly trained. I have rehabilitated more than I can count. I have also cared for my horses as they lived into their late 20's and 30's. They served as school horses as long as that was possible for them and then they were just fed the best, groomed and turned out to bask in the sun. I even have one mare with me who was mentally tortured by an ignorant man to the extent that riding is an unacceptable experience for her. I worked with her for 2 years and had her ridable, but she was never calm or happy. So I thought she might do better as a rodeo bucking horse. But the first time a cowboy didn't fall off when she bucked her best, she simply flipped over on top of him. So she couldn't even be a rodeo horse. She is living proof that we do not sit on our horses backs for 2 seconds without their permission. Fortunately, her basic temperment is sweet, and she will live out her days as a companion to my stallion. So I am consistent in my actions and my words.

I am also successful in the show ring. I have trained and shown a number of horses to championships in hunters, western pleasure and dressage. I am not a "big name" but I have competed at A rated shows and brought home the ribbons - so I do not exist in a vaccuum or hide in my backyard. I also teach numerous Jr riders - and what they learn first is respect for the horse. They learn to look at the horse as a friend, a companion and a teacher. They are taught to make resonable requests and to allow the horse to offer his best. They are not taught to force, punish or demand. I sleep well at night, and my horses welcome me every morning.

Will AHSA or USET do anything about this incident? I suspect there will be an invistigation, and yet in the long run, it will be declared accidental. There may be some commentary about the risk of using an upcapped metal pole, but I doubt that the overall attitude of using pain causing equipment to extract a little more effort out of the horse will ever be addressed.
Someday, GM will come to face what he has done. I don't know if it will be soon or many years from now. But this was not really a freak accident - it was the inevitable conclusion of a long journey down the wrong path. And there are many other riders and trainers who are traveling on that same wrong road. Maybe a few of them will see where they are headed, and choose to turn back. In which case, this horse's death was not in vain. It may have been the ultimate sacrifice to save many other horse. We can only hope.


[This message has been edited by Monica S (edited 01-24-2000).]

[SingAlongQuillo]

Naive, perhaps, but everyone starts at the bottom and often it's the first thing's a person is taught that that person sticks with. Not always, granted, but still...

Not that I've been told, before going over a jump, that metal jumps are bad, but doing anything that could endanger a horse's life goes against my sense of morals and self-respect. George, obviously, has a different opinion between right and wrong that has to be respected, but putting the offending pole back up after a deadly accident goes beyond morals.

Seems more like a metal pole is a shortcut to solid training and jumping basics. There are less harmful (physically AND mentally, especially mentally) ways to teach a horse to pick up it's feet (and to teach a rider to ride) than slapping a metal pole as the top rail of a jump and sending them over it.

But I mean, fine, use a metal pole, but once a horse dies because of it, doesn't that mean that something's horribly wrong? And that maybe something should be changed? George made a mistake, ok, great, everybody makes mistakes. But the idea of a mistake is to learn from it, not repeat it. That's what gets me..

[magisteel]

Well said Monica S

[Trixie]

Yes. Around horses, accidents happen. But accidents are, at least 80% of the time, preventable. This one certainly was. A metal pole is just absurd. It could have hurt the ammy on board, which would have had lawsuits ALL over the place.
Jump cups on fences are certainly less harmful than a metal pole. A horse can break a leg on those. It's evident the dangers - A HORSE DIED.
George Morris is the father of hunters. As the person who is responsible for a good portion of what goes on in the hunter ring today, he should know better. It's common sense.
What he did sets a horrible examples for young riders. As someone who stresses safety along with everything else - the jump cup thing - he should know better than to use a metal pole.
As one of the most respected riders and trainers in the business, he should have set a better example.
This was a lack of common sense

[WBDigest]

Hilltop,

Where did you find all of the specifics on the incident?

[rusti]

What a horrible thing to happen to a horse!
I have seen trainers "pole" horses and use the metal bar to keep them from hitting the top rails in a class. Fortunatly there are not more tragidies like this occuring. I personally would never allow any horse of mine to be "trained" this way. Its just wrong! to say nothing about being illegal! I wish I could believe that this kind of cruelty is isolated but I think we all know better. When discussing the B. Ward issue with a top rider I once respected all that person had to say was "I can't believe anyone told on him"
The people involved need to be held accountable for their actions-no matter who they are. Is anyone who directly witnessed this willing to report it

[wtywmn4]

Well said Monica.......

[Kate]

Rumour at WPB has it that the incident was not a clinic, nor was GM even there when this happened (and it did happen). Rather, a rider/trainer (not the amateur that owns the horse) was using GM's private schooling ring to school the amateur's horse for her, and is the one who jumped the horse over the pole element.

Resulting are two schools of thought: this report is just PR generated from GM's camp, OR it is accurate. Since none of us here were there (or was someone?) it is necessary to give pause to the DIRECT correlation of GM with this incident. IF any on-site witnesses provide an honest account, then we'll know more about the facts of this event. Certainly IF this WERE a clinic, there should be numerous witnesses.

Of course, regardless of WHICH trainer/rider it was, or of whether a clinic was involved, the horror and tragedy remains and all of our passionate responses are just as valid going forward!

[This message has been edited by Kate (edited 01-24-2000).]

[hilltop]

W.P., I have recieved my details from many people at the show, some who saw the accident and others who have just been around through the aftermath. The info. I have recieved and passed on is only the facts I have heard, I have tried not to print possible fact. Though I have printed some of my own feeling's on the issue, I have tried to not be to harsh even though I am outraged at the sad event. Kate I do know that George was there, it was a lesson, and the rider/owner was in the lesson. I wish George had not been there, and his poor idea to use an iron pole was not true, but thats not the case. I believe action must be taken and that this can not be swept under the carpet, but it should be after a fair hearing and if found neglegent he should be punished fairly!

[Brue]

It is exactly for reasons like this that everyone should not jump to conclusions. It started out in this thread that he was schooling a student, then it was reported that it was a group 2-day clinic. And now he might not have even been the trainer involved. Until all of the facts are made clear, perhaps everyone should withhold judging him.

[barngirl]

For the dressage and other riders who are questioning where the metal pipe was it would have been used much like a rail. And for Ken, I have yet to see a horse implae itself on a wooden rail. i was always taught to make sure that your rails were bevaled in some way so that they would not roll when knocked off of a jump. hence the reason we spent many hours before a schooling show turning round poles into eight sided pole. If a wooden pole is going to be thin and round it shouldbe eaily broken upon impact.
Recenlty a young horse are our barn jumped a fence with a pvc pole... she hit the top rail with her back legs which sent it forward between her front legs, much as I suspect the metal pipe did, the horse ended up stumbling a stride or so and eventually stepping on the pole and shattering it. SHe was not injured nor even scrapped... she was a little shaken and did jump bigger the next time around. So horses can learn from their mistakes. She wa not injured and we were out one pole. No big deal.
I think people bringup good points that this is not a first time occurrance in the horse world. Poling and the like goes on.. and it is because it is a big money sport. Sadly too many people end up with horses thatwere suppose to be great and then learn they really don't have the desire or ability to jump at the level they were intended for. My birthmother had a horse... he came from a jumping and dressage line. he refused to jump over a dressage ring fence when he made circle too big in training... almost pulled something trying to step, flounder crash through the fence. She knew then and there that she woldn't even attempt to point him at a real fence. he didn't have it him in. More riders and traners need to face the facts... just cause a horse looks like it able to jump doesn't always mean it will do it well. BUt that doesn't really work in this sport with all thehigh sales commissions and money that goes around.
And while I don't condone anger or name calling... I will be curious to see how people react when all the facts are out. Just think many people were very willling to bad mouth, name call and condeem Mclain Ward fro putting fingernail size shavings in his horses boots.. which left no markings...and now we have George MOrris reportedly impaling horse on pipes...Just as I hope and somewhat continue to beleive that Mclain is not really in the wrong... it is hard to not realize that there are some unseemly practices in our sport. Many people asked where MClain learned his supposedly evil ways from... Neveryone was quick to blame his father... but it doesn't look like Mclain had any good role models to chose from... I agree with another poster... I think I will stick to the little local shows. And If I want to make money from my horses I will run a trail riding stable. I worked at several trail riding businesses... and the horses were happy, well cared for and yes they made their owners money... and they didn't have to be spurred, poled or strong bitted into being good.
Lets at least be comforted by the fact that the horse died instantly or at the very least quickly. And its most likely in a far better place and will never have to suffer again.
I also hope for the sake or our sport that this is all one big misunderstanding... maybe we'll wake up tommorrow and it will all have been a bad joke and a nasty rumor... I really do hope.

[CarrieK]

Someone commented above about the possibility of a lawsuit arising out of this incident. Of course, the rider in this incident can initiate a lawsuit against the clinician, but there are a number of factors which would make it difficult for the rider to win.

First and foremost, if the suit is charging negligence, there must be little evidence of contributory negligence. Contributory negligence consists of any act, or failure to act, by the plaintiff which contributed to the injury.

If it can be proved that the rider "knew better" than to jump over a metal pole--and proof may simply be the rider's sworn testimony that s/he was told by other trainers, or read in respected publications, that jumping over metal could be dangerous--that could constitute contributory negligence. If it could be proved that the rider "knew better" than to jump over a metal pole yet continued to do so, following the rider's "free will," that could constitute contributory negligence. And if it could be proved that the rider returned to the clinic the second day and continued to jump over the metal pole, that could constitute contributory negligence.

Part of the difficulty in this lawsuit is that the sport of jumping is inherently dangerous. What would have to be proved is that metal poles are *more* dangerous than the norm, that metal poles are less accepted by the general jumping population.

Remember in a civil lawsuit the burden of proof is not "beyond a reasonable doubt" as in criminal cases, but "the greater weight of evidence." That means, simply, if there is evidence of negligence on the clinician's part (setting up devices which can be dangerous, or more dangerous than other jumps), but also evidence of contributory negligence on the rider's part (continuing to participate in a situation known to dangerous), then it's up to the jury to decide which party's argument holds the greater weight--which party is "more wrong."

The wild card in this whole thing, of course, would be the jury. Remember the case where the plaintiff held a cup of hot coffee in her lap, it spilled, she was burned, she sued for and was awarded millions (which was appealed, if I remember, and reduced)--all for doing something that she probably knew better than to do.

There were also comments in above posts about sanctions against the clinician by the AHSA or other official bodies. I'm not conversant with AHSA regulations, but I'm not sure how sanctions can be ordered. Even though many people agree the clinician should have known better, the incident is still an accident--no *deliberate intent* to injure this horse--a much different type of accident than, say, administering too much medication too close to show time.

Which isn't to say that the AHSA can't make a statement condemning unsafe training practices. An official statement may seem to be so much nothing--and perhaps it is--but it would serve a purpose. The statement could serve as "official disapproval" and could also help deflect any criticisms from extreme animal rights groups, a concern of a writer in an above post. It would acknowledge, responsibly and maturely, a problem in the sport and would express official intolerance of the unsafe practice.

A statement of regret from clinician would also be an appropriate and honorable response. It would be satisfying to read one.

Some posters have expressed outrage that the clinic was continued. Recall that car races, football games, and even equestrian competitions--turf and track racing, eventing, rodeo--continue after grave injury to the participants. While I know how *I* would have responded, I just can't condemn the clinician and other participants for coming back the second day. I can agree that it was a poor decision to use the metal pole again.

And I cannot condemn the passion and outrage--what other readers have deemed as hatred--in these posts. I admire people who think, but I also admire those who feel.

[3DogNight]

I am absolutely appalled and sickened after reading about this incident. It is nothing less than an abortion of the ethics, integrity and compassion that so many of us strive to bring to our sport. To create a situation in which something like this could happen in the first place is bad enough, to witness this occurrence and then continue schooling over the EXACT SAME FENCE is insane!! My god, what were these people thinking. Why not just pass out guns and play a quick game of Russian Roulette prior to the start of the clinic. I don't care who was holding the clinic, I would walk out and risk anyone and everyone's wrath before putting my horse or myself in a situation that so obviously had such a potential for disaster.

[Kathy Johnson]

Until an actual new story comes out written by an unbiased journalist, I will try to withold judgement, since what we read here is heresay.

I will put aside the issue of the metal pole until it is confirmed. But as to the death of the horse:

The clinic must continue for the sake of the other riders and auditors, not because of their Olympic aspirations but because of their psyches. To witness the death of any horse or rider is a major trauma. It can undermine the courage of the best of us.

So, I say more power to Mr. Morris for continuing the clinic and I say that my
heartfelt wishes go out to the rider who lost a horse and got on another to ride and jump the next day. To me, that shows tremendous courage. To get back on another horse is not heartless at all--it is the reality of riding.

When I was young, a friend and I were trail riding miles from home. As we were cantering, her horse had a heart attack. He died in mid-stride and went down underneath her. She took a terrible fall. But worse yet, she lost her best friend. She did not want to get on my pony, but finally we rode double back to the barn together. It was the best thing we could have done.

I know my opinion will be unpopular. Please understand that if actual neglect or abuse occured I am as outraged as the rest of you. Please read my post carefully before condemning me. I understand totally the difference between a natural death and a bizarre accident. Even if a metal pole were used indiscriminately, the death was a bizarre accident.

But try to understand that the death of a horse or rider, whatever they are doing, is a natural part of horseback riding. As a rider, I can think of no nobler way to die than from the back of my horse. To me, there is no nobler way for my horse to die than in doing what I ask of him.

[Andrea]

I was never a George Morris fan. What a heinous and deliberately cruel act. Does he get off on trying to show off to his students, making them do insane tricks in the ring? Is this how he instills confidence and guts to a rider and horse? Safety through excellent horsemanship is the motto of any good trainer. I am disgusted and furious at this man. The owner of that horse must be devastated and kicking themselves for trusting such a man. Imagine how betrayed that rider must feel. To take a clinic with someone who is well known, to put all their trust in someone when you think they know what they are doing when they do not, is the worst betrayal to endure and the price that person paid is very heavy. He blows a good smoke screen around himself, but only few are lucky to see through it. Big name or not, who cares? The facts remain, he is a careless, cruel, insulting, B.S. artist. Thumbs down to you Mr. Morris.

[Monica S]

The Noblest way that my horses could die is peacefully, on green grass. Whether assisted to this passing by a kind and loving vet, or just lying down and failing to wake. I see no honor in a horse having to lay down his life in response to a request that I made of him. It would haunt me forever! And if continuing of as if nothing happened were the best course after a trauma, then why do schools shut down when there has been a horrible event there. Why do they offer greif counciling - why don't they just get on with the business of teaching?
No I cannot agree with you that it took courage for GM to continue the clinic. It took arrogance. He is so sure that what he does is right that it would never occur to him to change a thing. "just a freak accident" he would proclaim (and will yet). He will offer some statement of regret of the loss of a fine horse, and say how the sport involves risk, etc. At the top levels, nothing will change. Change will only occur from the bottom up. We must make a decision not to support this attitude of "making our horses perform better" and we can do it by recognising those who support that sort of training, and avoiding them. We can also announce to their sponsors, and the publications that carry their teachings that we are boycotting their products. And we need to Give support to those trainers who have effective and yet honorable means of training the horse. We need to accept that good riding takes time to learn, and requires a committment from the rider. And proper training of the horse takes even longer, and it will cost money. But if we are willing to invest that time, and that money, we will wind up with a far superior horse than one who has been rushed and forced to do more than he can. The trust of a young horse is like the bloom of a fresh rose. Once it is lost, it is never completely recovered. And kind treatment doesn't mean that the horse will never be reprimanded or asked to try. It just means that every step, the horse will be given a choice, and his physical and mental state will be considered. When a horse says NO, there is a reason. It is fear or pain or confusion. It is never Just Willfulness. IF the horse is positively motivated to try for the rider, then he will try with all his heart and all his soul. And if the rider doesn't believe that, then the horse is the loser. And in this case, the horse was the biggest loser of all. m

[Nipsy6969]

George WAS teaching the amateur. I KNOW the "other" trainer (who usually helps the amateur) and he WAS NOT teaching, she was having a lesson (or a "clinic") with Mr. Morris. Those are the "facts" from the 'other' trainers mouth. You can take this statement to the bank, I am certain of it.

[surfotter]

Ken Kraus is right, of course; it was a dreadful accident, not an intentional act of cruelty or abuse. However, if the facts are correct as presented, George should indeed be ashamed of himself, and the AHSA should investigate the incident thoroughly. Placing horses at risk in that way is unforgiveable. It's made even more reprehensible by George's status in the industry.

George, I'm sure, is devastated. He loves horses, or he'd not have been in this business for so long. I imagine he will lose sleep over this for months to come. Regardless, he should have known better, plain and simple.

Several people have pointed out that using a metal pole as an offset is illegal. Yes, indeed it is -- at an AHSA event. If this incident occurred in a private schooling area, however, would it be under AHSA rules? I'm unclear whether that private ring is considered to be part of the showgrounds or not. A gray area, and a question for the stewards. Also, did the accident occur on a show day? I'm vague on this, but I think all bets are off on days when no competitions are scheduled. I certainly have seen plenty of creative schooling on dark days at horse shows small and large, with no hint of rules enforcement.

Where the accident occurred may not matter to the AHSA, or course. Was not one of the top German riders set down recently for illegal schooling activities at his own home barn? I can't recall the details of the case.

I remember once, years ago, coming across a tack rail at a local trainer's barn. It was back in the back of a storage area, out of sight of casual passers-by. Rows of carpet tacks studded it, and the rail was dark with dried blood. I was naive. I didn't realize such things went on behind the scenes. I've since learned that everyone has their little tricks that they'd rather their customers and the ASPCA didn't know about.

[Portia]

As far as I can determine, Surfotter is right about the legality and illegality of the practice -- please note I am most certainly NOT speaking of the morality, ethicality, or safety of using metal poles. I searched the AHSA rules and could find no specific mention of the use of metal poles as offsets. Yes, there are specific and fairly clear rules about poling. Would use of the matal pole be considered poling?

If I can find them, I am going to check the FEI rules regarding use of metal poles, tack rails, etc. It is time for a rules proposal that states specifically that such items cannot be used within X days or hours of an AHSA sanctioned competition. The AHSA cannot control everything that happens in private, but it can regulate some things.

For those who complain that they need such methods to make their horses more careful, then they should note that, like all the other rules, if everyone follows them, it will be a level playing field. If people don't follow them, then they risk the consequences.

There has been much talk on this board about rules that need changing, and I agree with much of them. We recognize the difficulties in getting them passed by the AHSA Board. However, this is something we can do and should do, and there is no better time than now.

I will draft a rules change proposal and post it here for your comments.

[SingAlongQuillo]

Carrying on is good, and riding the next day is also good, but to do so as if nothing had happened (which is the idea that I get) is the problem...
I guess, though, we don't really know if he took a break to discuss it with the other riders, but if he replaced the pole i'm guessing no.
He's only human, and I highly doubt anybody riding with him expects him to be perfect... personally, in any of those riders shoes, I'd have more respect for him admitting that the pole was a stupid idea and learning from the mistake (of putting it up in the first place), but it sounds like he's above all that....

I guess when the facts come out we'll know... but I'm curious to know how much of those facts will be covered up for the sake of George's apparent pride and 'reputation'

[surfotter]

Portia says she was unable to find anything in the rulebook about offsets (which are not the same thing as poling, by the way). I don't have a rulebook close to hand, but there used to be something specific about this. As I recall, and I may be remembering incorrectly, it said that the offset must be a bamboo pole, no more than 2 inches in diameter, and it may be taped.

[buryinghill2]

Surfotter-
Do you honestly think that George will "lose sleep over this for months to come?" I don't think so!

[brilyntrip]

Having read all the comments concerning the schooling accident at West Palm I understand the disgust, the sorrow over the painful death of the horse.I agree with all of it,but....The venomous attrocious criticism of Mr.Morris is NOT fair......Having been in this business for Ages (really) and having played up there at the top....I just do not believe that George Morris is only concerned with his money,image and getting on with the day.Maybe after all this time I am so off base that he has fooled me all this time but I really doubt it.George is a man just a man not a god to endow him with godlike qualities is an injustice to him.If all these stories about this incident are true he made a TERRIBLE MISTAKE IN JUDGEMENT.He should have known better really he should have.I guarantee you that as he drives back and forth to his home while he is in Florida he will think about this incident and say to himself why did I do that?Any time that he has a free moment he'll think about and ask himself" why?".Why he chose to use a metal pipe is beyond me but he did and it was a mistake.George Morris is not a personal friend of mine but...I know that he has been in this business for ever(really) forever and if he didnt care about the animals the riders ,their safety ,and education of the same he would have left this business and gone to something else.Any one who cares a bout animals could not just blow this incident off and continue.It will be with him for along long time.I believe that many of you are being un fairly critical,of a person that you know nothing about except by second hand commentary. I am sure that it will be a long time before any of the professionals that post here ever resort to anything but a "normal "jump rail.

[Gry2Yng]

Portia,
Poling is against FEI rules, sorry can't quote the sections. They have must stronger statements against it than the AHSA.

Kathy J - I agree with you about continuing.
As far as continuing to school the exact same fence, again, outside the context of poling. Christopher Reeve suffered a terrible accident, I am sure the fence is still used. My former trainer was paralyzed on a coffin, he still schools students over it and it is used in competition. And I am sure it was difficult for him to watch his students jump it for the first time after the accident. I know it was difficult to ride it. I also know I woman who broke her neck (and thankfully will recover) schooling a 3'6" oxer comprised only of eight sided wooden rails, no extra jump cups, set on excellent footing. Are we going to stop jumping those? It was a terrible, terrible accident.

[Policy of Truth]

I want to echo some comments, that I think are valid, but not necessarily appropriate for this incident. Yes, we all know the necesity of getting back on a horse after a bad fall. I know about it first-hand. I understand what the person said about the psychology of this and why it might have been necessary to continue BASED only on the psychology. I'm am in my final year of my MA in counseling.
My concern is that for whomever saw this incident, it left a strong impression that nobody cared about what had just happened. And if the reports are correct, then I believe that it is a fair assessment simply because of this one point: THE OFFENDING POLE WAS CONTINUED TO BE USED.
I can assure you that using the pole was not necessary to help the riders who observed this to be less fearful of the jump. If anything, it harmed the psyche of the riders. And I have to say this too..what about the psyche of the horses that observed this? Horses are impressionable creatures too.
As for the rules, I know from a reputable trainer that unfortunately, poling is not against AHSA rules..only FEI.

[This message has been edited by pacificsolo (edited 01-24-2000).]

[sprite]

actually, the fence at which christopher reeve was paralyzed was not used in competition again.
as for GM, i agree that it WAS an accident, albeit a horrible one, but why on earth did he continue to use the pole? thats what i dont understand. fine, continue the clinic, etc, but leaving that obstacle in there seems like a stupid idea.

[Jet]

I am not going to rehash every thing that was already said about the horrible negligence of Mr. Morris, or the sorrow of losing the horse.(I agree fully) What really blows my mind is that he used the same metal (illegal) pole the next day and that his students actually jumped it. Please, please let this be hearsay! If it is true then it is an act of negligence even more heinous then the first. There is no way anyone could claim ignorance to the risks of jumping that metal pole!! I am SICKENED by the thought. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Laura Reed]

Regarding any reference to metal poles in AHSA rules: Article 806 (poling) states that "single poles of bamboo only (not rattan or any other material) must be used." Article 806 further describes the requirements of the bamboo pole and requires that "exhibitors must furnish their own poles and no other object may be manually employed."

Article 302 (cruelty) lists "manual poling with any object other than a bamboo pole" under acts included under cruelty and abuse. The above referenced rules pertain to poling; nowhere in AHSA rules is it stated that metal RAILS, used as a component of the obstacle, are prohibited in the schooling area.

Article 2733 (jumper division courses - obstacle requirements) mentions the word "metal" only when referring to cups and pins.

Article 2415 (type of obstacle - hunter division courses) describes fences that "must simulate those found in the hunting field."

What methods one uses in one's "private practice" are, sadly, something the AHSA has no control over. AHSA rules do not provide for the fact that stupidity plagues some humans.

Does anyone know who the horse/rider involved were?

[Monica S]

brilyntrip - please note that all reports - from several different sources - indicate that Mr Morris CONTINUED TO USE THE METAL POLE!!! So you may wish to believe that it will be a long time before anyone uses anything other than a standard wooden pole, but GM does not appear to have hesitated a moment.
Regarding people who are seriously injured, or even killed jumping 'normal' fences - yes these things happen. Usually ther is some sort of contributing cause. In Christopher Reeves case, he had very poor jumping form. Videos of him riding showed him jumping with his hands near the horse's withers, not out in front of his shoulders. When he fell from his horse, his hands stayed trapped back underneath him, and therefore he was unable to deflect his impact on the ground. This led to his paralysis. Other cases I am not personally acquainted with, and so I cannot comment. However, we must look at the bits and pieces of information available in this GM case. #1 the pole was an uncapped metal pipe. #2 All the participants in the clinic were told to jump this fence, so using a metal pole is basically considered a normal schooling technique. #3 the horse hit the fence hard enough to send the rail way out in front of him, he didn't just rap it. #4 the lessons continued that day, and the next. #5 the pole was kept in use. These facts lead me to the following conclusions: 1) Mr Morris feels that All Horses need the threat of hitting a pole that causes pain to make them try harder and jump cleaner. 2)The horse that died was sufficiently overfaced with the height of the jump that he hit it hard! 3) If care had been taken to at LEAST cap the end of the pole, it would not have had the sharp cutting edge that the exposed end of a pipe offers. The horse would have been injured, but might have survived. 4) Mr Morris did not experience any serious remorse, or else his ego or fear of admitting a mistake prevented him from removing the pole from use.

To me the biggest transgression is the concept that every horse in the clinic needed to be made fearful of hitting the pole. If that were not the intention, then a standard pole would have been sufficient. I cannot open my heart and sympathize with anyone who has this attitude about horses. Again, it doesn't matter whether the action was legal, or whether it is commonly done. The problem is it is immoral with regard to our relationship with our horses. The best Trainers in the US need to STOP preaching ways to force horses to give a little more! Riders need to learn what is reasonable to expect from their horse on any given day, and accept that limitation! Classic horsemanship should be based on techniques that ALLOW the horse to OFFER HIS BEST. Trainers who do not know how to do that, need to go back to square one and reassess their relaionship with horses. Poets do not refer to the horse as Noble without good reason. A horse will offer his strength and submit willingly to a kind and fair master. He will try harder than anyone should ever have the right to demand. he will give his best if we just get out of his way, and allow it. It doesn't come from sharper bits, longer spurs, tack poles or martingales. It comes from guidance, partnership and patience. And if I ever have a client who doesn't want me to train their horse that way, well, they can move on down the road. I would prefer to protect the horse, but I can't do that if I submit to quick fixes and force. To rationalize that I might do it a little kinder than the next guy is only self deception. Training a horse with gimmicks designed to extract more from the horse than he can willingly and calmly offer is just wrong, and there are no degrees of wrong. So I won't do it. Slow and correct, or not at all. Mr Morris' actions indicate that he is on the other side of the fence. He will do whatever it takes to get the best out of the horse, despite the risks. Again, it doesn't matter if what he did was Legal (I am sure it was, he knows the rules as well as anyone) it was and is immoral and dangerous, especially in the manner in which it was done. m

Monica, I find your posts very articulate and well thought out. It is a pleasure to have you here on this forum. Welcome!

[Erin]

In answer to Louise's question from waaaay back in this thread, yes, there will be coverage of this in the Chronicle.

I think everyone needs to take a breath and back off a tad here. There's only a very sketchy outline of the facts at this point, and I think it's WAY too early to be jumping to conclusions... we don't have all the information yet.

Chill, all right? Save your indignation and calls for George to be run out of town until we know the whole story about what actually happened.

[Gry2Yng]

I must have missed something (I mean this honestly I had to catch up on 4 pages) do we really know that every participant in the clinic jumped the metal pole?

[Lois]

Monica, you say "please note that all reports - from several different sources - indicate that Mr Morris CONTINUED TO USE THE METAL POLE!!! but so far, no one has indicated a news source for this story.

All the "reports" that I see on this board strike me as being more closely similar to ones found on the Urban Legends web page than and authoritative source. No one yet (to my knowledge) has posted saying they personally witnessed the event. No one has yet mentioned where or when it occured.

The story has evolved from a training incident to a clinic to a private clinic to... I've seen similar horror stories which were sent to me via e-mail only to find they're just modified versions of well-worn urban legends.

Before we start firing off letters of indignation to governing bodies, shouldn't we at least find out if this incident even happened? Folks will look pretty foolish if they've sent out indignant, horrified, and furious mailings only to find later it didn't happen, or it did, but George Morris wasn't involved. It will certainly reduce one's credibility if they're seen as becoming hysterical (and yes, some here have certainly become extremely worked up about this) over a fiction.

Some people have claimed wood poles to be safer because they're "designed to break upon inpact. That's all well and good, except often they don't. If they do break, you're now facing two sharpened, ragged, dangerous ends of the pole. If the horse or rider has fallen, they may find themselves impaled on one or both of the ends. I have seen this happen. Luckily no deaths occured, but career ending injuries did.

Placing tennis balls on the end of poles, metal or other variety, is about as effective a protection device as your car's bumper at 75 mph. Great at preventing low speed impact damage, but if the weight of a horse comes down square on the end, its not going to prevent impaling.

For those who are just itching to flame everything I've said so far, I'm willing to accept your anger, indignation, etc. and likely even join you in it, as soon as you show me some independent report that this actually happened.

[This message has been edited by Lois (edited 01-24-2000).]

[wtywmn4]

Laura, thank you for addressing the legality of poling for all of us.

And Portia, once again thank you for your input /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif A calming voice with logic.

And for everyone, this is OUR place to vent and discuss. As people, we all have different ways of venting, some harsher than others. I do NOT read a lynch mob mentality as some have alluded to. Just people coming together over a tragedy.

[Christina]

This is disgusting..... that anyone had the brian to do a horrible thing like that.. They should feel terrible......... UGHHHHH!!!!!! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

[Christina]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Christina:
This is disgusting..... that anyone had the brain to do a horrible thing like that.. They should feel terrible......... UGHHHHH!!!!!! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Pat]

While I do agree that we should make all efforts to confirm this incident, I still don't understand why people think it was an accident. As I said before, and accident is an event that is UNFORSEEABLE. ANYONE at the top levels of this sport has seen more than one pole fly in front of a horse went hit hard. Why then wouldn't it be OBVIOUS that thin metal pole can become a virtual missle if hit this way.

Gray, I don't care for you attitude that those who only ride once a week and never jump above 2'6" are too naive to offer opinions. I'm a pro, and I know better too!!! I can't cpmrehend the idea that because it was GM, that we should'nt judge him. Just because he's been getting away with it until now doesn't make it right.

I don't like poling because it does not address the 2 key issues of why a horse might need "sharpening up." A tired/bored horse or an overfaced/untalented or POORLY RIDDEN one won't jump higher for long just because you gave it a wack. I've been in these big barns folks, and I've seen the tack rails and the "trick" jump (pulley jump) and packed the bamboo into the semi myself. And all those horses I've seen get poled didn't last long. They are the washouts you never see again. Proof is in the pudding as they say.

At this "top level" riders and trainers alike push, push, push until these poor obediant creatures need the "tune-up." And because most of them are on full service, everyone thinks they are pampered. Never mind the stacked NSAIDs and standing wraps after every little jump session. Or needing to stand in ice between the first round and the jump off. Or needing special foam support wraps just to take a lesson at home. I could go on, but I will not bore you.

I too can't understand the mentality of a rider or a trainer who would push on as if nothing happened. Would it have hurt to atleast move to another ring, or finish on the flat, or just end the lesson early?

I'm not sure if the outrage expressed would not be equal if it had happened to another trainer. I'd like to think we would all be equally horrified.

[Becca]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
Steinkraus approves of metal poles??? Is this in one of his books? In what context?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I too wonder the same. I grew up a pony clubber, as well as showing hunter jumpers. true horsemanship has been beaten through my head my entire life.
And Jumping unsafe jumps is one of the biggest errors you can make. I'm trying very hard to with hold my judgement of anyone involved until I hear THE facts. But I am disheartened by the incident, and know I wouldn't be able o do anything shoudlt hat have happened to me. I have withdrawn into myself more than ocne at the death of my horses, and i had nothing to do with those dewaths. I can only imagine. I do truely hope the rumors of her getting back on on another horse is false. However, if this is, its a terrible, TERRIBLE thing we are doing to this person, should that be untrue. Some respect needs to be shown as well.

[Becca]

Also my apologies for that last post. The quote has already been answered, and I posted prior to reading the entire post. Sorry.

[heelsdown]

I think it's horrible and just the tip of the iceberg. The "sport" of horse showing has become absurd, both in the methods used to win, the attitudes of many of the competitors, trainers, parents etc... GM is an icon, one I have looked up to since I was a kid in the 70s. I have read Hunter Seat Equitation so many times the pages are falling out. To me, his riding style was the pinnacle to which I aspired.

What happened to the George Morris who said
"If riding were all horse shows, bright lights, and blue ribbons I'd have quit long ago....she doesn't need an audience, her satisfaction will come from improving herself and her horse." Accompanied by photo of rider schooling her horse in a corner of a field.

I bet the rider whose horse died was so intimidated by him he/she never thought of questioning him about that jump. Many riders today take a few lessons and buy a big dollar horse and jump into the show ring. I bet a lot of them don't even know how to take apart a bridle let alone have any concept of safety. So they go to a big trainer like GM and rely upon their knowledge. He is a very intimidating guy and if you were paying all that money for him to be your trainer, I can easily see how you would fear questioning said trainer even if you knew a steel pole wasn't a safe obstacle.

Winning is great, but at what cost?

His teaching methods appear to verge on the sadistic. A good instructor should strive to improve their students perfomance with hard work, positive reinforcement, discipline etc... with SAFETY of both the horse and rider being paramount. Criticizing a rider's conformation (something they can't change) and bullying them into attempting courses beyond their ability point to an instructor who is dangerous.

What I don't understand is GMs use of the pole after the accident. Compounding the mistake if you ask me. I hope whoever insured this horse thinks twice about the others he may have policies on in George's barn.

The truth about these big name trainers and riders is seeping out, we have the internet to thank for that. Perhaps the days of 50% commissions on sale horses will be numbered (owners please advertise your horses direct on the net!)and there will be trainers who don't mind if their students actually smile in the ring.

[N&B&T]

Everyone reacts to grief/trauma differently, and copes with it differently. If someone's reactions/coping mechanisms differ from one's own, one should not assume they feel nothing.

Keyboard colicking, would rather refrain from addressing this event and discussion until it's not. Also, there are still gaps and uncertainties in the reports of what actually happened...this must of necessity color reactions, opinions, and comments.

[rusti]

In response to the writer who said the person who only jumps small jumps was being naive, i think you are dead wrong. Yeah poling and worse happens all the time in the jumper world, however some of us know better and do not ever allow these training methods to be used on our horses. This coming from a past successful junior/amatuer owner rider-
Hopefully that so called naive writer will continue to believe just the way she does now

[Gry2Yng]

Pat,
I don't have any problems with riders who jump 2'6" and only ride a few time a week. My point was that to say "even I know better" misses the heart of what the trainer in this incident may have done. The metal pole was not used due to lack of knowledge or an understanding of the risks. It was not used (if this story is in fact true) by an amateur who was not experienced in this technique. To say "even I know better" implies that the accident was a result of ignorance. My point was that this did not happen because someone was thoughtless or was trying a trick from a book.
I called the poster naive because if a metal pole was used and a horse died, and GM was involved he knew the risk he was taking by schooling that way, whether we agree or not. I would speculate that this would also be the reason schooling continued, because the trainer has done it many (thousands) of times in the past and considers this a freak accident. For those of us who have never poled a horse the context would be different.

[Sunny]

I don't know where this will end. After this terrible incident I am sure many eyes will be on every schooling area at the circuits.
This incident was a screamer, but just keep an eye on the jumper schooling area someday, before a large jumper money class.
You will not believe the creativity, and the dangerous situations a trainer put these poor innocent creatures in.
The Show Steward will be watching one moment and everything will be just fine. As soon as he walks a few feet away, they slip in something illegal.
There has been a great movement within the AHSA regarding Schooling Rules and the enforcement of same.
Everyone has the right to challange a rider who is not playing by the rules.
The level playing field......
But, the ruthless riders will at any opportunity, deliberately punish a horse to make it jump higher.
I think this incident in Palm Beach will explode... I do not think it will go away.
We in the industry have suffered enough by the actions of others.
Stand up and demand a review of the facts.
It does not matter if this was at a show or a private schooling area.
An animal was killed. And this man's training technique was to blame.
You can not convince me that this was the first time this technique was used by G.M.
I too would like to hear his side.
But, he would think it beneath him to explain his reasons to anyone.

Keep your eyes on the schooling area.......

[horsegirl]

This just goes to show that we cannot put our trust into anyone else but ourselves. You just can't look to anyone else to be a hero but yourself. We all make mistakes and let me tell you, i've had my share, some i still get upset just thinking about - but this sport and all other sports have this habit of putting these people that are at the top on a pedastal - but George is nothing more than a human being just like the rest of us - trying to make a living. Whether its decent or not - that would be another topic. We've made him out to be a god - I know I have - that was a mistake on my part. George is human - and George feels greed like a human - and george makes money from horses - and so the higher they jump and the more careful they are - the more money they're worth - the more money he gets and the better he looks - well - greed has no business being with animals - it just doesn't mix. It's exciting to see it in action, but it's tragic when things go awry. I'm a pretty competitive person - if I had the opportunity to be able to show in the big shows - I would. It would take alot of sacrifice and hard work, but I think it would be thrilling. I envy people that do it. I dream of being able to afford a George Morris clinic. But with it comes greed and envy and alot of other things that take away from the horse - I think that if you want to be at that level and you're making money doing it - somewhere along the line the horse pays for it and I think I'd rather stay a little poor to keep my thoroughbred at peace. Well, where there's good, there's evil - there's no two ways about it - and there's nothin' we can do about it. All I can do is try to be the best horseowner I can be and the best beginner riding instructor I can be - and forget the rest.
The most unfortunate thing though, is that I live by George's methods in teaching beginers their solid foundation in hunt seat. My background is based in his methods and teachings. I just have to shake my head, pray for this guy and the horses that he never does this again, and leave it to the officials to reprimand him. I don't even know, I would assume though that using a metal pole at any time is illegal?
The lesson that I learned from this though (although I just learned of it and call me nieve, i'm a bit in shock) - is that you really have noone else to look up to but yourself.
Mr. Morris is in a very competitive industry, as we all are- and that is his world. When things go wrong, animals die, become severly crippled and are in alot of pain. It's an extremely difficult industry. And quite barbaric when you're trying to make a living at it. There's no way around it I'm convinced. It's an incredibly difficult sport to become successful in (successful meaning that, you can support yourself and live the good life, get to take vacations, stuff like that). And unless you're tough as nails (if not tougher) and you can look away from this stuff and go on (as he did apparently by finishing the clinic...) you're just not gonna make it. And it seems that to make it these things happen like its just another day. Horses fall and die and people fall and die. It's a very dangerous endevor to take up.
I could call Mr. Morris a hypocrit all day - we all could - but - I'm not going to. That's just negative. We all know that what happened is negative. And you know, in the end, I feel its the sport of horses that did this to the horse, and Mr. Morris was the object that the industry used to have this happen. The sport says, Jump higher! Ride faster! Be stronger! Be better! oh well. you win some, you loose some....... I gotta go.

[MsRidiculous]

WHOA!!! Everyone, calm down. I agree with Erin. We don't know the facts yet and some people here are already condemning GM and cursing him left and right. Don't jump the gun. You guys are thinking with your emotions and not your heads. Yes, it is a tragic accident. But don't be so quick to judge when we don't even know every aspect of the story. I'm preserving my judgement until I know FOR SURE, without a doubt, the EXACT events. What some of you guys have said concerning the rider, GM, and others is just past mean. Some of it is just downright rude.

I think I'm going to stick to observing this forum from now on, I have no desire to continue posting after what some of you guys have shown me. You really should be ashamed.

Goodbye, all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[stacey]

well, I was at palm beach when this happened...and i heard about it thru another prominent trainer who i work with and i will not be mentioning names........but anyway I think that it is funny that George, the scribe of all those articles in the Chronicle preaching horsemanship...and the lack of it in todays world has just gotten himself in a lot of trouble. By trying to "tune" a horse by using steel poles, he made a terrible mistake. A true horseman would have made the horse just get deep several times. It is unfortunate that this had to happen....and I thin that it ois true that everyone must be shot down every once in a while..and i believe this has just happened...and he better have some good insurance.

[buryinghill2]

From what I hear from Palm Beach, there is more talk and uproar about this tragedy on this board then down in P.B. It will be forgotten there in a few days or weeks. Please, the last year I was there a horse was chased by a loose dog, ran into a tree at the end of my tent and died instantly. By the time they has removed the body, all the dogs were back out running around. The next day the same dog was loose again! The people whose horse had died had to spend the next seven weeks watching that dog run loose all day. Nobody learns!!!

[Jade]

Wow George another accident! Oh well just get another client or horse whichever!
I have a reply to almost every post I've read. But it won't bring back our Saber. I speak of Grande Saber. I am barn manager for Tellwynd for fifteen years and been doing this professionally for thirty. I have kept quiet too long. Grande Saber was in training with Hunterdon. Saber was in Lake Placid sick from Tues. til Sunday without our knowledge. He died on Monday. He did not die of colic or pnemonia. He died a horrific death alone in a clinic in New York.
I was there right after his birth and took sole care of him the first three years of his life. My heart was with him everyday he was off the farm. He was our family, our hopes, our dreams and most of all the most beloved horse I have ever been around in my whole career.
Who watched over him while he was ill? Who monitored him? Was he left alone during his illness to ponder his future? Why wasn't his family called? Did God(GM) think he could handle it? And what gave him the right? We were told it was an accident? What accident? Life went on for Hunterdon without a backward glance while the Tells are still greiving.I think they deserve answers to WHAT HAPPENED TO GRANDE SABER?
Why was he sick? Why was he left on the show grounds sick? He was ill for a week(?)in Lake Placid in 85+ temps.
Saber deserved better. The Tells deserved the right to make their own choices on the life and well being of the horse that meant as much to Joan as her own children.
I have seen many wonderful horses die throughout the years don't get me wrong but this was cruel and insensitive. Please lets stop this from happening to someone else!!
Let's stand up for our equine friends!!
You're right someone does need to step up to the base. Why is everyone so hush hush when it comes to GM? Everything for George seems to be an "accident". Oh and by the way when you think your above blame you can sleep well!

[SingAlongQuillo]

Just because a prominent trainer has been doing something for a while doesn't mean he doesn't know better. Thus why way earlier I said that even I, a beginner nobody who has every intention of remaining a beginner nobody (except I'd like to jump higher <G> ), know that using a metal pole as part of a jump is dangerous, physically and mentally abusive, and altogether wrong. George Morris most likely knew that using a metal pole had many possible VERY dangerous outcomes, and that it was a training shortcut. Why he used it, well, that's for him to explain, but that doesn't take away from the fact that even us little nobody's who really don't amount for much know better. And there are a lot of us nobody's out there, backyard riders, whatever. Those who go to shows for experience, the chance to progress with a horse, and to meet new people, when the coveted ribbon is only an added bonus. I truly hope that many people at the high level shows go for the same reasons. (I really can't speak for that, never btdt) IMO it's not naive to say "even I know better" because even I know that a metal pole is mentally harmful to the horse and therefore abusive. And obviously there are even more dire consequences than just a mentally scared animal. Also, KNOWING that there were very large risks, and that such a technique is an undesirable shortcut, doesn't that make any one employing the technique ignorant? He/She's ignoring the fact that it's dangerous and using it anyways. This applying to all show abuse and otherwise - drugs, bloodletting, tack rails/poling/etc, saddleseat abuse, and eerything else. To focus on winning at all costs is ignorant and very very sad.

more food for thought, though: Did an english diploma today, one of the stories spoke of "winning" (wars, but still). Said something to the likes of "When you win, you actually lose. It is not success that is important, but to ACHIEVE."

So, I guess, with that in mind, anyone using tack rails, poling, etc is really losing, even if they get a red..er..blue ribbon out of it. (sorry, canadian). And all of us who work to better ourselves and our horses and HAVE FUN doing it are really the "winners". Has anyone ever noticed how amazing it feels when your soul merges with the horse's soul and suddenly their feet don't seem to touch the ground? Gimmicks don't create that...If anything, they destroy it.

I wonder, too, if George talked to his students about the accident afterwards? Everytime something goes wrong in any of our lessons, my instructor goes over it "Why did this happen, what could be done to prevent it". I really wonder if George did this, something that would put the riders at ease, perhaps lesson the shock/pain, and make a senseless tradgedy into a learning experience (so that even thought it's a horrible horrible tragic event, at least some good will have come of it - perhaps prevention of future mishaps). Like, say, disposing of the offending pole and replacing it with something safer, admitting a mistake was made and that a lesson was learned...I guess we can hope...

nobody mind me, just a tad opinionated on the subject (enough so to do a really big research on it last year...)

[heelsdown]

I was in Wellington on Saturday and heard nothing. My riding buddy was there yesterday and heard nothing till I told him about it today. He said that, yesterday morning (as every day) there were so many people watching George give lessons with his megaphone that they had joked that next thing you know they'll be selling rail space at the Hunterdon Schooling ring to recoup the $35,000 rental cost. My trainer has been there every day and hadn't heard anything about it till we called and told her. She was shocked. To me the silence is very telling, and not in a good way. The lack of dialogue amongst the so-called horseman showing there I sincerely hope is a temporary thing. The rest of the professional community is either afraid to condemn George because a) they do the same or worse on a regular basis, or b)they don't have the guts to take a stand against a guy who is supposed to be at the top of the heap.

I don't understand why there should be two sets of standards/rules, FEI for "everyone else" (except of course when we are competing at an FEI event) and then AHSA slackly enforced rules the rest of the time.

Also while at Wellington I witnessed people driving their golf carts on paths clearly marked "horses only." Kids and adults driving the carts and whizzing by horse's butts within a hairs breath. Geez, I'd hate to have a greenie there, are all those horses on Valium? More accidents waiting to happen.

The dog situation is also clearly out of control and I'm a dog lover. I had my Labrador with me (on a leash) and as we walked past the rows of barns dogs continually charged out at us. Some of them looked like they might not be too friendly either. Several times I had to place myself between the dogs, hoping that there wouldn't be an incident, and praying that the owner would come out and tell me "he's okay..." My dog loves everybody and doesn't realize that some are nasty. One of those dogs who charged out of the barn, without a leash was a very large Boxer. He looked a little suspicious and followed us aggressively all the way to the parking lot. He turned out to be an okay fella, but I was worried for his welfare. Guess what barn he was at? Hunterdon!

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 01-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by heelsdown (edited 01-25-2000).]

[Jaysee]

If any of you people have spent any time at the shows with all these "respected" horse people, you would realize that most of their motives are monetarily derived. Sad to think, but true. BIG BUSINESS selling flesh and blood for hundreds of thousands of dollars.. Gotta get that comission - and so does the person that recommended the horse, and so does the person that found the horse, and so does the person that trains the rider that the horse will be for.

The reason that HORSE SHOWS take place is because of the horse. So many professionals have totally lost focus on that point. It's more of a fashion show, and a social thing, and whoever has the most money wins! Talent takes a back seat these days. It's sad, and it's one of the reaons that I could never go back and have anything to do with that group of people. I really miss the animals, but not the BS that goes with it. A lot of these amateurs don't even know basic horse care (same with the juniors)(AND some of the PROS!!!) and certainly don't make up for it with common horse sense. I know that some of them can't even bandage a horse, and some can barely tack up a horse. Why bother with the whole thing? Just to impress people and spend some more of the family's money? Buy your way into the right circles? Please don't think I put all a/o's and juniors in this category, just the majority that are hanging out in Wellington.......

[Cindy]

From reading the entire thread, sounds like GM used [and probably is continuing to use] extremely poor judgement in schooling horses/riders. So poor, in fact, that a horse suffered a horrific death.

If eyewitnesses can corroborate the information, I believe that he needs to be removed as co-chef d'equip [sp?] of the USET. Those of us who feel strongly about this could petition for the action to be taken.

I will communicate to Practical H. that I don't want to read about his opinions on jumping.

We can't prevent those who want to continue putting themselves at risk from giving Mr. Morris more of their $$$.

[barngirl]

Whether it was GM Joe Trainer.. it is appalling... and I can only hope that something good comes out of this horses death. If only to turn he hj show world on it you knw what and get some change.
The sad part is that even though we backyard riders know better and wouldn't use such techniques... in a way we are all responisble. untill we stop using theses trainers, or going to the shows, or buying their endorsed products we are all contributing in some way. Often times whether we know it or not. And we always say that we are the back bone of the industry, and we are... without us their would be no them. Maybe its time we started laying by our own rules. I often hear how many riders are steering away form the rated shows... and doing the local barn thing. Maybe we need an association. During the US civil war states left the union because they didn't like the rules of the NOrth. Maybe we don't need the AHSA. They are not very responsive and it seems to be there are too many good old boys to get any real changes done. It would be alot of work, but maybe it would be better. They say if you want to let people hear you talk with your pocket book. HJ showing has become a big business...an industry in fact. I am more than willing to take my business elsewhere.
I have often been amazed at how people idolize GM... yes he is just a human... but he has taken his God title ad run with it. For everyone who thinks GM is this HJ pioneer please read your horsemanship history books. You will quickly realize GM is not a pioneer, but good salesman... His ideas are never new or ground breaking. He borrows from the French styles, the italians... heck anyone but himself. And from what I have heard he will say one thing and do another. Whatever works for that day or that month or whatever seems to be in. I remember seeing a full cover display for I believe Horse and Rider... it was about the inside article on GM's new riding philisophy. Basically it said quit posing and ride. MOve with your horse... use your leg, you know the basics... common sense. Yet the reason it was big new was because GM was saying it. It also meant GM was going to get a bigger pay check down the rode.... think of all the pretty and usually unaffective riders he wouldnow have to retrain to ride with their horses... be forward and fluid.... something most jumper riders learned long ago... and usually was why they failed so miserably in the hunter ring.
Yes we have made GM a god, but he has run with it. I for one will never jump on his bandwagon. He has been a great figure in our sport... gotten it much recognition, but he is not the end all be all. And if the stories are true and all the fact are corect... it really was only a matter of time before someone at the top got caught. But is it realy getting caught if you are not really doing anything illegal by the rule books.
LAstly ... for the poster who said there is nothing more noble than a horse dying doing what it was asked to do. Yeah maybe if you were fleeing from ravenous leapards or cannibals. But please spare me the dramatics. There is nothing noble about dying on your horse... and their is nothing at all noble about your horse dying doing something it would never have dreamed of doing on its own. As riders we are responsible for our horses well being... we should never place them knowingly in harms wat nor ask them to prove their worthiness in our lives by doing something unsafe. i am not sure that I am more sickened by what happened to that horse, or by reading that is is noble for a horse to die doing what is asked of it.
Riding horses simply riding horses... is considered by insurance companies to be one of the most dangerous leisure activities. yet we can do things to make it safer for them and us. And whether George did it or someone else did it... it should never have happened. For everyone who talks about paralized friends and impaled horses on wooden rails... these truely are freak accidencts. this was not... I can not believe that a flung wooden rail would have impaled a horse through the heart. Severe bruising.. cracked or broked something but not impaled. A good wooden pole shoul dbe heavy enough to fall to the ground and not get flung ... it does happen, but it is rare.
Also I have seen horses swim through triple combinations sending rails flying, tangled up in their legs... and go on to finish a course. could it be that horses that are poled respond differently when they encounter a similar situation? Might they panic more and not think about simply going forward. Not that I am saying this is what happened.. but I would think a horse who associates pain with rails will panic and receive more injures from rails caught up in its legs.
Lastly... as I know I am rambling on... Portia your a lawyer... maybe its time to require riders, trainers and owners to sign an oath. I wonder how many people would be willing to actually sign something that said they would not abuse thier horses... using tack poles, metal pipes, severely restricting martingales... etc... We all know we aren't suppose to.. but no one really holds any one accountable. I realize it would be unenforcable, but I think half of it would be the principle of it. Sort of stand up and be counted sort of thing.

[Doubleeez]

If this terrible accident happened on a part of the showgrounds, was the AHSA Steward notified? Has a charge been filed against Mr. Morris for his actions. The AHSA has a mechanism that can be put in place once the preliminary steps are taken. This belongs "downtown" with the Hearing Committee as to what should be done for his actions. We can all come up with "punishments" but let's let cooler heads prevail. The important thing is to follow the AHSA rules and notify the Steward or if you are there, file a protest yourself.

[SingAlongQuillo]

barngirl: You a backyard rider too? <G> I've a feeling I'm the only one who isn't up near the top and knowledgeable to boot.. augh..

I love horse shows, but have only done small, localized, "unrated" ones... schooling shows, a couple of "real" shows but still very localized. And the amount of people chattering away about how wonderful the school horse they were riding was, or how wonderful their horse was, and the amount of people wandering around bareback after their classes were done etc was amazing. I think as soon as you get to the higher levels, the emphasis on "FUN" and simply achieving your personal best is lost in the run for the prestige, novelty, and money. And then the horrible stuff starts happening.

And yet, these same trainers searching for the prestige are teaching their young riders that they MUST win at all cost, and those young riders will grow to be the next generation of top "respected" trainers. Something is VERY wrong with this picture.

I've much more respect for people like my instructor and all the other instructor/trainer's out there that preach SAFETY and HORSES WELLBEING before all else. Afterall, without a horse, a rider is not a rider, but without a rider, a horse is still a horse. We need them, they don't need us (excluding the care that domestic horses need, of course), the least we can do is be fair to them. Sending a trusting animal who is giving his heart to you over a metal pole is an abuse of that trust, and certainly not fair to the horse...

[Doubleeez]

Incidentally, if the AHSA Steward is NOT notified or a protest is NOT filed, nothing will happen as far as the AHSA is concerned. Keep this in mind as you mentally deal out punishsment. Ssomething has to be put into writing before the AHSA will take any action. kIf you need help getting something on paper, let me know.

[Serafinah]

I'm off to Wellington on Friday for my first taste of it. Mind you, I'm going as an observer only, and I am a Dressage rider, but I'm definitely a big wigged out by the whole thing!

[wtywmn4]

Doubleeez, no one knows for sure whether this ring was all inclusive of the show grounds. From what we have been told, it is a rented schooling ring that GM has. The steward of the show would not have authority there.

[wileycoyote]

I am very sad to say that the horse industry of which I have been a part for over 30 years makes me ashamed.
This injury was tragic to be sure, but doesn't the tragedy start with the owner who wants success at all costs?
Trainers now go to drastic measures to insure that their hunters will be quiet on course through drugs & infections, and their jumpers jump high, through poling or gymnastics or whatever. This is because after they have gotten their big commission checks having convinced their owners to buy this commodity (note I did not call it a horse because for most of these people, it is not a living breathing creature) they now are responsible for making sure the horse wins, at any costs, or off will go their affluent owners to another trainer who will promise success by whatever means.
A lot of owners don't even LIKE their horses, and hardly know them or anything about them.
Not only are they poor owners, they are poor parents and spouses as well for they don't care enough to educate properly their significant loved ones that do ride. They don't breathe in the smell of a horse or feel his warm breath on a cool day or hear the sound of his welcoming call or just be amazed by the softness of his lips.
A rider who does not understand the beauty of the horse and his natural way of going has never realized that the horse is so beautifully balanced when free and struggles with his balance all the time when carrying a passenger.
Don't get me wrong, for of course there are some wonderful riders and trainers who allow the horse to be and care very much for his well-being, but not many of them are famous or are training on the circuit. They are at home, making those $50,000 pre-green horses that someone buys, exploits, resells, and kills on a lunge line, or with drugs or with a stupid egotistical exercise like a metal pole.
Isn't there a rule about using anything but bamboo on an AHSA showground?
Where do we draw the line?
And why did this poor dumb amateur rider go ahead and jump this jump, knowing the danger? Were they stupid, peer-pressured or just so naive that they thought it was okay. Probably it didn't matter to him anyway, since the horse was more than likely insured, and they will buy another and not mourn a single day.

I, on the other hand, will mourn for the loss of this gallant soul, who jumped with his heart and not his head because a person asked him to do so and I will mourn for my sport and what it has become.

[Pat]

Doubleeez, this happened on private property NEAR the show, so I do believe nothing will happen unless the rider files charges.

Gray, again, just because one knows the risk, and is a big name doesn't make it better. Your post did seem to state that those once-a-weeker's have no grounds to offer opinions.

I echo the sentiment that if the rider had been killed or hurt, he'd be in a whole 'nother pickle right now. If it had been me or our horse, my BF would be in jail right now for having made mince meat of GM. I may be be wrong, but if the rider had been killed instead, there could be grounds for serious criminal charges.

Yes, there is risk involved in just mounting a horse. That still doesn't mean that you don't take all reasonable precautions.

Allow me to play amateur physicist. (sp?) Wood poles, even 6 footers weigh significantly more than that metal pole, which is usually only about 1 inch in diameter. So, that wood pole hits the ground and doesn't bounce very high. It will roll which isn't great, but it doesn't come back to you like a spear. That wood pole also doesn't travel very far in flight, so there is always a chance that the horse will land farther away from the jump then the pole. Now that metal pole, with it's small diameter and lower wieght is by far more likely not just to bounce back, but to bounce one end leading in the air. Now you've got a long sharpish object flying back up at another flying object, the horse. If it comes up at the wrong angle, there you have it.

Now if that pole had been an even lighter bamboo pole, even if it bounces back in the direction of the horse, it will break or splinter. Yes, the horse could still be injured, but not impaled. Add some layers of duct tape over the ends and you dull it's sharpness even more.

Now, I'm not the sharpest caulk in the box, and I figured this all out by myself. It all sounds like an unreasonable risk to me.

I don't like light weigh poles in general, they are like begging for a horse to get tangled. Sunday I gave a lesson with a schoolie I didn't know who turned out to be quite a clumsy clod. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Even over a tiny vertical he hit the jumps hard and sent the PVC rails flying. I crossed my fingers and toes every time hoping they wouldn't bounce between his legs. I won't be using the PVC rails ever again.

[This message has been edited by Pat (edited 01-24-2000).]

[Pat]

wtywmn4, then this happened on the grounds, not private property? I thought this was at some farm he rented for the season.

Renting a farm for FLA is so fashionable I just assumed that was where he was.

[Becca]

As Erin, and numerous others have said, we don';t know enough yet. But even moreso, NO ONE knows the real story behind the rider. I can very clearly visualize the pain, and distraught this person may or may not be suffering.

We ALL know Mr. Morris is a very prominant, and strong figure. It is damned hard to look him in the eye and say I'm not jumping that. I would have done it, but thats due to Morals, and an understanding, and horsemanship I have had since the day I was born, or have been poured into me since then. Many riders have been riding only a few years- to them their trainers word is the law. Even moreso when it is someone like george morris. Some of us are blessed wih the ability to speak for ourselves, and more importantly, think for ourselves. But i udnerstand the plight. I would have handled myself differently- VERY differently. And I know many of you would have. But we can't pout ourself in the riders position. NO ONE knows what happened, or what they went through except that one person. I know what i would have liked, expected, and needed to do. But what would i have done? thats indeterminable. No one knows. This was a trauma, still is. For everyone, ESPECIALLY the rider. Depsite thier actions, we can't go attacking them. I KNOW what its like to a degree, nothing I have ever experienced is harder than losing a horse i love more than life itself. So please, I Beg of you to not mnake rash judgements, to Mr. Morris, but even moreso to the rider involved. Try and imagine it.

[wtywmn4]

Pat what I was told, was that it is a rented ring/schooling area, that is adjacent to the show grounds. WPB has areas that are owned privately. Plots of land, 3-5 acres.They are technically not the show grounds, but literally within walking distance, 100's of feet. You can see and hear the show, but be off the grounds, technically.

[HillBrooke]

I just learned about this through Kenny Kraus' email, and now the boards. All I can say on the subject is that I am thoroughly disgustied. It is obvious that the person in question is not truely a horseman. Although yes it is an accident, possibly a one in a million, the one in a million chance could have easily been avoided. Isn't the first rule of the FEI that the welfare of the horse is paramount? I cannot accept that using illigal equipment (well, much more than illigal) to make a horse more careful is in the horse's best welfare. I think, however, that this person might just get off scott free. If this was anyone else, they would never work in this bussiness again. Also, just think, what if the horse was not killed, but the rider? Can you imagine what the consequences might be.

I have friends that ride with this person, and the other day, I was at their barn. I remember in a Between Rounds article from this past summer (that my trainer made copies for for every junior in the barn) one peice of advice that he gave, was when you meet someone, to look them in the eye and shake their hand. While I was at their barn, Chris Kappler, another trainer, shook my hand and was very polite. However, George just ignorned me, as I stood with a group of his junior riders that he was talking to. I thought back to this article, a bit puzzled. I also remember in this article that George Morris spoke about the care and wellbeing of the horses being first in his book. The use of an iron rail shows that this may be a statement that he preaches but obviously does not practice. Also, he must not value the safety and wellbeing of his riders to subject them to this. I think that action needs to be taken against this, to show that in a bussiness where name matters so much, when the stakes get high, it doesn't matter who you are. Although this is obviously a terrible accident, I think that a lot of good examples could come from how this is handled.

[AKDragooPhoto]

I've had a few days to mull this story over and these are the points I've come to...

It should be obvious to anyone who has been on this board, regardless of level of expertise, that this is not an issue that should be swept under the carpet.

And those at the "top" end of the industry should be forewarned that the small fish that make up the majority are getting smarter and less tolerant. And it may not hurt them today, but it will sneak up on them. Maybe not enough individually to do much damage to their pockets, but things do add up.

Boycotting publications that use them as experts, not buying the equipment they lend their names to, not taking their clinics or lessons are all ways we can protest at an level of expertise. We have so many choices these days there is no reason to follow blindly.

In regards to GM, I would hope that since he has a number of written forums {including here at the Chronicle} he would take this oppurtunity to explain his motivation for using a metal pole in general.

Whatever the whole story is, I hope he would address the issue and realize that this is the time to crack that arogant facade and be humble. Don't ignore it, admit you were wrong {if this happened}, you are afterall only human.

As for horses being a business, yes I am afraid I am only all to aware of this. But like any other business, there are rules on how to operate and sanctions if you break them. Perhaps it is time for our industry to become just that.

As to poling in general... if whacking a solid wooden rail is not enough of an encouragment to a horse to pick up his feet, then perhaps jumping that high, wide or at all is not his forte. Just because we want them to doesn't mean they can or will. Harkens to the leading a horse to water saying.

That's all for now.

[Louise]

Erin,
Any idea of WHEN we can expect some facts? This incident happened at the end of last week. It is now Tuesday of the following week and I am not aware of any official word from anyone. Do we have to wait until the Chronicle prints something, which means at least one more week of speculation, or can we at least get the basics here?

I am trying very hard to be patient, but with the picture of that poor horse constantly in my mind, it is becoming harder and harder. I have to admit, my old '60s genes are beginning to creak into action. Anybody remember the words "establishment coverup"? I am afraid that this delay simply means that the participants are getting more time to put a story together, and that the true facts may become so buried that we will never know what really happened.
I hope I'm wrong, I hope that I am overreacting, but, as time goes on, I am becoming more and more afraid that I am not.

[LucianCephus]

Amen, Louise.

How long can this really take, Erin? The incident occurred a week ago...was it so complex? Several posters have accused this forum of a "vigilante" mind set; it occurs to me that this is a phenomenon which occurs when those officially empowered to act are PERCEIVED as doing nothing. It is critical that the media do their job fairly, impartially, and in a timely manner.

[amble]

My heart goes out to the student and owners of the horse that died in such a horrible and avoidable accident. The use of a metal pipe by ANY trainer is barbaric, arrogant, and a grotesque means to train. In fact, its not training at all, it's just cruelty.

[Doubleeez]

I still say, the AHSA Steward on the show should be notified in writing and asked to include it in their report, even though it was not technically on the showgrounds. Any Steward who refused to do so doesn't have a whole lot of interest in the welfare of horses. I would then follow-up with the AHSA and ask them if it was reported. Surely if the AHSA stands for what it says it does, they have to do something - what would be up to them.

[Paris]

I am in total agreement with the feelings of others who are outraged by this incident. However it makes me worry how "outsiders" to this sport might take this information. I firmly believe if we want to save out sport, and not be shut down, we must clean up our sport, by conducting a thorough investigation of this incident, and demanding that action is taken of Mr. Morris if the facts prove our suspicions.

As we hopefully truly love out sport... I believe that we must take action to stop and prevent future incidents, if we expect to be able to compete and continue in this sport.

Just look at the fight of the foxhunters in England... If we want to have our sport in another decade, we better clean up out act!!!

[Pat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gry2Yng:
Pat,
I don't have any problems with riders who jump 2'6" and only ride a few time a week. My point was that to say "even I know better" misses the heart of what the trainer in this incident may have done. The metal pole was not used due to lack of knowledge or an understanding of the risks. It was not used (if this story is in fact true) by an amateur who was not experienced in this technique. To say "even I know better" implies that the accident was a result of ignorance. My point was that this did not happen because someone was thoughtless or was trying a trick from a book.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Gray, I'm repling again because I feel I didn't make myself completely clear in my last post. I can be as clear as mud sometimes. /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Perhaps, yes the use of the pole was not from ignorance, but ARROGANCE instead. The Arrogence to think because I am who I am and the laws of nature do not apply to me.

There are reasons that certain practices are not allowed by AHSA and FEI rules. These practices have been deemed by intelligent, caring individuals who clearly see that they are not in the horses best interests.

I'm against poling, and I've said why. I'm not some tree hugging wet blanket who's worried the horsie is getting hurt. If a horse and rider are matched well, properly schooled and neither is overfaced or over worked, then you don't need to get out the bamboo or the pole.

Isn't that why these students of his pay him ungodly sums of money to train them and buy them horses? Is the fact he feels the need to use the pole evidence that he's not doing his job in the first place? (or bamboo)

I'm very disappointed in Steinkraus as well for advocating the metal pole in print much less in practice. I'm a de Nemethy disciple myself, and I don't recall any where in his book the deNemethy Method where he dicusses poling at all.

I have a first edition copy of Hunter Seat Equitation on the shelf. When I teach, I have that "text book" model in my mind. Still, I'm not going to bow down and call this event an unfortunate accident just because I think he has the right idea on how we should sit on a horse.

I won't be surprised one minute if this continues to blow over unpunished. Hey, we couldn't find the guts as a country to set down our President, why expect more here?

[Sunny]

Once the facts are clear, we must then take a stand....
To become part of a cover-up only damages the industry further.
Someone posted that other trainers were afraid to come forward with what they know, because George is at the top of the heap.
And if he is at the top.... guess where the others preceive themselves.
If we are to have a 'top' of the heap, at least let us have a person who we will be proud to look up to....
Just as in our country today, let us keep the top for someone who deserves it.
It would serve our industry well, if we would be viewed as a group who has moral standards.
It is not too late to stand up.
Let us wait for the details....The real facts. Then make a decision.

It would be helpful to hear from Erin.
Enough Speculation.
It would be helpful to hear from George.
Enough Speculation.

[N&B&T]

CM and Sunny, this phenomenon was discussed on the TV thread several months ago...and elsewhere...

[wtywmn4]

If GM is on top of the heap, then we are in a heap, of trouble.... http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

We need to redefine what "horseman" is.

[Gry2Yng]

SingAlong,
You point is the same as mine, the trainer knew exactly what he was doing, and new the dangers. To say someone "should know better" implies that they are ignorant or were momentarily stupid. For example, an experienced rider who reads a book about schooling with a metal pole and goes out in their backyard and tries it - should know better. I don't think ignorance or momentary stupidity are the case here, again assuming this is true. To say "should have know better" implies a certain innocence that I don't think applies. It was a deliberate decision. I am with you.
Gry

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LucianCephus:
Amen, Louise.

How long can this really take, Erin? The incident occurred a week ago...was it so complex? Several posters have accused this forum of a "vigilante" mind set; it occurs to me that this is a phenomenon which occurs when those officially empowered to act are PERCEIVED as doing nothing. It is critical that the media do their job fairly, impartially, and in a timely manner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, don't shoot the messenger, all right? This thread was started late Friday afternoon, and I didn't see it until after the Chronicle office was closed for the weekend. The entire editorial staff discussed the subject yesterday, and calls were also put into George and officials at the show yesterday. As far as I know, we haven't heard back from anyone yet... and I'm sure you all know how hard it is to track people down at a horse show http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

I'll pass along as much of the information as I can when we get it... you won't have to wait for it to come out in print. George will also be offered the chance to address the issue in a future column.

And I repeat... calm down. Some people here seem ready to organize a lynching (whether it's of George, the media, or the AHSA/USET) at the drop of a hat. Let's give people a little bit of credit until they prove they deserve otherwise, all right?

[Gry2Yng]

Pat,
I would hope you have read enough of my posts to know how appalled I am by the incident. Clearly, I did not come off very well in writing this time. I think everyone has something to offer. I just think it is naive to think that this incident was a result of "should have known better", of course the man knew better, a trainer of that stature who uses that technique knows exactly what he/she is doing. I am a firm believer that "winning at all costs" is an unfortunate motto in today's society and especially at the upper levels of this sport. But that is the reason why this happened, that is the reason why poling is done.
Gry

[This message has been edited by Gry2Yng (edited 01-25-2000).]

[vmt76]

It takes, sometimes a lifetime, and at least a long time, to earn the respect and admiration of others; it takes but a split second to destroy it. This should apply to everyone.

[Robbiesmom]

One problem is that as coaches we are in a position of trust. The rider TRUSTS us, with all our knowledge and expertise, to make the right decisions to help them get the most out of their horses. Trust failed in this instance. I feel George Morris needs to come forward and address the situation. I for one will wait judgement until that time. At the very least I beleive an apology is necessary. Remember George, coaches learn by watching others. Some may have been watching you and may, even as I speak, be using that particular schooling technique at this moment. If this is a case of "do as I say, not as I do" the world needs to know.

[Portia]

Thank you, Erin. We look forward to the Chronicle's report. In the internet age we forget sometimes that not everything can be done instantaneously. There are obvious benefits and dangers in information being accessible to millions in seconds, and I suppose we should keep them in mind.

[Banks]

when exactly is the chronicle gonna come out with an article?..

[Tricia Booker]

As Erin said, we'll try and get information to you as soon as possible. Unfortunately, Mother Nature is also playing a role in the situation today--it's hard to say who made it or is going to make it into the office today due to the blizzard. So far I haven't heard a word from the Virginia office!

Tricia

[amused cowboy]

I've been watching this thread grow from a freinds bookmark and am sorry to say, from from someone around horses, cattle for a long, long time-how sad how little you really know about your own animal and how their trained? Do you honestly think horses jump high for sheer love of the human on their back? No-it's known as self preservation and being domesticated-If your into show jumping-this is the reality of your sport. How many horses broke down for the owner/trainer of Secretariat, before he came along-yet are they discussed? Do dressage horses all piaffe along in the field? No-We recently watched one flip and break its riders pelvis in the ring (when hands are unforgiving they are as deadly as any metal pipe).

If this man your all criticizing-who I really don't even know about-has been at the top for 30yrs-shame on all of you for being hypocrites w/ blinders on, beating your chests about the poor horse. Your blaming him when its all around you?

Please, irregardless of metal poles, telephone poles, bamboo poles, wood poles, cotton poles,- many horses have not fit the vocation chosen for them-due to human error and the fact, for christ sake they're horses, not "the black stallion" & "Jake, the wonder horse"-they are herd animals w/ a vocation that requires them or they are unneccessary and will be sent to slaughter, or eventually, not bred for. Seen any good pulling horses lately?

This is the reality of animals in sport-just like the riders, some of them get injured, some of them die. If your smart you learn from it-(I think some heads were in the sand for, oh, say, 25 years) At least rodeo is up front about it.

By the way, how many here are crying for the poor cows and calves that get hung on a hook to make the fine leather on your boots and saddles. Yep, their domesticated to, w/ nicer eyes. Too bad they can't jump and piaffe with flowing manes like the horses.

[LucianCephus]

Sorry, Erin, it HASN'T been a week (duh!), and I really didn't mean to be snide or hostile. The point I was trying to make...albeit, unsuccessfully!...is that everyone here is a bit hypervigilant in ANTICIPATION of a cover up, even tho the media may well intend to follow thru vigorously. My thought was that simply the more quickly the facts can get to press, the sooner the speculation will be ended, and everyone can get back to their lives.

Again, apologies.

[Jumphigh83]

Sorry Cowboy, but IF a horse doesn't want to "play" there is no way on God's green earth that you can make them play. I agree that jumping is unnatural for a horse, but so is having a rider on its back. The only thing that was on their backs predomestication, was a predator. So ANY use of a horse is NOT natural and subject to your faulty logic. Some horses enjoy working more thanothers and the ones that are "jumping for survival" are very easy to spot (by a HORSEMAN). If these horse didn't want to cooperate, they would not and we would be up the proverbial creek without a paddle. I am somewhat amused that you sign yourself as "cowboy" because that implies that you use your horses for some unnatural acts too (if in fact you ARE a cowboy, not a wanna be) Horses don't naturally herd cattle. Even though there are some that show some degree of "cow" they learn that behavior and show aptitude for that job, just like a jumper would show apptitude for the job of jumping. AND , YES, you DO see horses piaffing and passaging in their natural state. Ever see the display put on by a stallion courting a mare in the wild? Ever watch a fresh horse turned out on a brisk day? You get to see all those "tricks" and much, much, more. So don't lay the "guilt trip" on the entire jumper world for using horses (as opposed to ABUSING them) because you are a hypocrite if you think that you aren't doing the very same thing. Get off that HIGH HORSE before you fall!

[Pat]

Amused Cowboy, perhaps you should learn a little more about our sport before you jump down on it. George Morris has been an icon in this sport for years, and as much as I am appalled by this new low he has sunk to, he has earned some of his acclaim honestly.

You mean to tell us that there aren't any trainers in your world who pulled the wool over some one's eyes? Pulleese, if you really hung around here and listened to us you would know that not too few of us already didn't care for George Morris before this happened.

Oh, and so, just because rodeos are "up front about it" it's OK to spur a horse with rowels until it bucks you off and flip cows over with ropes and tie them up? I don't get it, what exactly do you mean??? Amused, if you can dish it, you can take it.

I don't seek out western BB's and tell them why thier sport is wrong and that John Lyons is just a shiester empting your pockets, so why don't you leave us to discuss OUR dilemma?

Back to some intelligent discussion....

I think the question is, what now? As best as been discovered, he was not on AHSA show grounds so he broke no rules. So that means that unless the rider speaks up, nothing happens. I do wonder though, if this animal is insured, will the insurance company view this as an accident or as something that could and should have been avoided.

[amused cowboy]

That was very nice and literate for you to explain it all to me, jumpinghigh. I really didn't understand it all until you did-ya know, especially the part about predator, natural state, and "cow" in horses. Whewee, didn't get it until you stepped in....

[Jumphigh83]

I'd like to think that you were being genuine but I have a suspetion that your comments were laced with sarcasm. Oh well. Opinions are like a**holes..everyones got 'em.

[Monica S]

COWBOY - I have not had my head in the sand - I have been saying for years that too many people regard horses as tools, and they fail to provide ethical treatment. Now when you compare horses to cattle, I have to admit, I have not had too many intimate relationships with cattle. I worked in a dairy barn one summer, and I dealt with feed lot calves at UC Davis, but I did not find them to be as deep in their soul as a horse. Do I think about where my leather comes from? You BET! And that is why I take care of my saddles and bridles so they last 20 years+. I also won't eat commercially raised Beef, because I don't believe in the feed lot industry. I have raised my own pigs - now there is an animal with great intelligence and a wonderful sense of humor. Death is not an awful thing to be avoided, it is inevitable - it is how the animals LIVE that matters. Sadly, cattle are best at producing food and leather, so that is how they are utilized. Horses have a unique position with man in that their purpose is to serve as a work partner - even if the work is dancing, or sport. And they seem to have a unique temperment that makes them generous and willing partners.
My concern with this issue is the broad scale use of gimmicks and 'training techniques' that are based on pain and intimidation to extract a little more effort from a horse. I am not at all sure what makes you say that a horse jumps for 'survival'? I have horses that are turned loose in the jump ring to run, and they sail over fences volunterily. I DO have horses that piaffe and passage in the field - they also half pass, pirouette and extend the trot. And when I ride, I set them up with balance and intention, and then I allow them to offer what they can give. This is a very different attitude than the more prevalent one of Making the horse 'get his head down' or pick his feet up higher or stop faster with a longer slide or whatever!

I am only hopeful that this episode will be an eye opener for many people. Riders need to realize that this sort of 'accident' is the inevitable result when you start demanding more from the horse than he can offer willingly. There are hundreds of horror stories of horses flipping over from being lunged in too tight side reins, or in a chambon; and tales of horses who have been permanently maimed when things when wrong after the injection of their tail to prevent it from being swished during western pleasure classes! I hope that riders begin to think about their horse - and decide to honor the efforts that a horse will make if given the chance. This could be a real turning point in equestrianism - the gradual disappearance of short cuts and the return to classic horsemanship. The fact that this 'accident' happened with one of the leaders of the hunter/jumper industry is only significant in that it brings attention to the problem. I never said that GM was the only bad guy. It is an industry wide problem - and the solution will only come from the bottom up. If the clients start demanding ethical treatment of their horses, and vote with their feet and their pocketbooks, then the small handful of classic masters who know how to do it right, and refuse to force their horses to meet modern horse show standards, will rise to the top, and be recognised and rewarded for their knowledge. But if everyone simply villanizes one man, then it will be back to business as usual, with just a few new players at the top. Maybe George himself will begin to see the sad result of this 'make them do it' attitude, and with his political clout, he could really make a change. But this is a man who insults and badgers every student that rides with him - it will take a real metamorphosis to turn him into a compassionate kind and patient person who gladly accepts that each student - human or horse - is giving his best for that moment, and praises and assists every effort! But I believe in the Easter Bunny, and see miracles every day, so maybe, just maybe this could happen! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif What a wonderful day it would be for all horses! m

[This message has been edited by Monica S (edited 01-25-2000).]

[SGray]

Thought these might be of interest - they are from CoolBreeze bb at (http://www.coolbreezefarm.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000176.html)

=============================================

coloredhorse posted 01-25-2000 08:18 AM ET (US)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a journalist, I agree with everyone who says "get the facts," though my little experience with Mr. Morris suggests that the incident is not beyond the reaches of possibility. Also as a journalist, I became impatient for facts and decided to go after them myself. I was not able to get beyond one of Mr. Morris' reps, who declared that there would be no comment until an appropriate time and forum had been chosen. No confirmation; no denial. As Mr. Morris has existing business relationships with both Practical Horseman and the Chronicle of the Horse, I would venture a guess that one of these pubs will carry something -- perhaps a column or letter from Mr. Morris. Still impatient, though, so I'll probably keep trying. Any other journalists out there? Perhaps sort of a tag team approach ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopefully the facts about this incident have been totally blown out of proportion and the facts show that GM did not act so irresponsibly - however, I e-mailed Practical Horseman and received a reply from them that stated that Mr. Morris is "reserving comment pending legal representation". Hmmm....I agree that we should all wait for the facts to come out before passing judgement, but perhaps if alot of people email Practical Horseman (Prachorse@aol.com) and Chronicle of the Horse and Horses Daily (horsesdaily.com) perhaps the facts will come to light.

=============================================

If nothing else, the uproar here should assure that the facts are brought to light.

We could all talk forever, but, at the least:

1. We have a right to demand a full investigation, to get the facts out.
2. We have a right to pressure the AHSA and the USET to investigate to the fullest, just as they would for my backyard, next-door trainer.
3. We have a right to ask publications to treat this incident seriously, perhaps to encourage Mr. Morris to take a leave of absence until this incident is put to rest.


I wasn't there, but have talked to enough people who were to know that something very bad happened. I don't buy the "accident" theory, any more than I accept a drunk driver saying that "I didn't mean to kill that family." If Mr. Morris wants to regain any semblance of respectability, I would suggest he cooperate with any investigations, not hide behind lawyers, and get it over with. Chronicle and AHSA took pretty strong stands with the Wards. Let's see if they have the cojones to do it again.

[Kathy Johnson]

>But this is a man who insults and badgers every student that rides with him ...

This is a false and defamatory comment. Please stop.

[MBS]

Again I am in agreement with you Kathy Johnson, This is NOT a man that badgers or insults everyone who rides with him. Obviously 99% of the people who are contributing to this board have not ever ridden with this extremely talented teacher.

[Erin]

I'm posting this for Tricia (Gopher), who's unable to access the boards at the moment:


We were finally able to reach George Morris. The comments above are correct--he's not able to comment due to the possiblity of litigation. But he's not avoiding the issue. He's very upset about the incident and says he will comment upon the situation as soon as he is able.

Thursday's incident took place during the Littlewood Horse Show, not part of the Winter Equestrian Festival circuit. An official from Littlewood said that none of those involved were entered at the horse show. In addition, the ring was not part of the show grounds.

Perhaps we should all wait and reserve judgment until we know all the facts. And I know George is the type of person who will address this issue head-on as soon as it's feasible.

Tricia

[appyluvr]

I'm new to the board and this incident is what got me here to read about.

I was totally shocked by what happened and appalled that someone who so many people respected and i myself at one time did could witness and cause such an awful event! Does anyone know where i could get mroe info on this incident? i'm anxious to know what the AHSA plans to do to GM, if anything. Even if the AHSA does nothing think of all the people who won't go to anymore of his clinics or won't respect him as a horseman or teacher. I know I won't attened any of his clinics or anything. If he did this once and is didn't seem to bother him wouldn't it be possible for him to do it again???

[Rags2Riches]

You guys are being REALLY harsh. Were any of you there? Until we get the real story from the rider and GM quit bashing George. He is human and humans make mistakes. I don't agree with jumping horses over metal but I man the same thing could have happened with a wooden pole with a point at the end...that's all folks!

[Dolce Vita]

http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif I just don't get why he would have anyone jump over a metal pole! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif Not matter how high the horse can jump or how well he can clear the jump. Thats just plain STUPID! And I'm suprised that GM had someone do that! I guess he is over respected, because he's obviously lacking common sense! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Bethe Mounce]

Thank you Erin for your update. There is NO doubt in my mind that all involved are in their own private hells because of the emotion the incident generated as evidenced by 6 pages on this subject alone. I have no judgement to make until the facts are in and even then I cannot pass judgement for I am not perfect. I hope in time the clouds will lift for everyone, those that were there and those on this BB.

Many thanks to Erin and Tricia for paying attention to all of this. But let's keep some perspective. Yes, there is apparently a "legal" or regulatory issue as to whether this occurred on show grounds. There is, however, another more ethical issue. If, as I understand it, this steel pole is illegal under AHSA rules, should it be FORGIVEN or excused simply because it MAY have happened off of the grounds? Who cares? It is still something that should not have been there..

[Rags2Riches]

Ok all you guys are bashing GM but were any of you there when it happened? I don't agree with horses jumping metal poles but you guys are so quick to bash him. I think it is really rude and immature. Let's wait til we get the real facts from the rider and GM. But for now let's just leave George alone. That's all..

[HunterH]

Everybody,
I have read this board, and most of you are geting on your soapboxes without ALL of the facts. Yes, this is an infuriating, controversial, very sensitive subject, butlets wait untill we have all the facts to write novels. I wholeheartedly agree with a great deal of things said, but I havent posted anything because I think that this is a situation where you need the facts.

PS, Nothing will come out of fighting, so lets keep the hostility down to a minimum

[wadino]

HunterH I totally agree with your post..CLAP CLAP!!

[Jaz]

Is there a person here who witnessed this accident? I am still in a state of *incredulousness* that a metal pole was used in a clinic by any instructor. Either as an element of a jump or as a poling device it reeks of ineptitude and carelessness.

I have often heard *The Goerge* is an egomaniac with a style most consider something they have to deal with just because he is who HE is. This incident ought to make people take notice and say HIS STYLE does not make him right if he is wrong.

If the facts so far are thus: A horse died while being impaled on a metal pole George told the person to jump, then the clinic continued like nothing happened (or that's the breaks), then the AHSA has to slap Mr. Morris with a negligence suit. Myself, if were my horse, my lawyer would already be on the phone to him.

[hilltop]

I am sorry if i have beem GM bashing that was not my intention. I was shocked that someone with as much knowledge as GM would do something so foolish and then even after such a terrible accindent, he would not stop. (I say accident because i don't believe he would ever mean to hurt a horse or a rider, he was just foolish in his actions.) Even though i think it was an accident he is responsible and if all the facts are correct than he should have a price to pay. That price must be in line with the offense though. GM did not have pre set intention to harm the horse he just made a very bad mistake. He should be set down and fined for this poor choice but as i said before it was not with intention to kill so the time penalty should be carefully chosen.People make mistakes and with that come a price, but they can change their ways a learn from these mistakes. I believe everyone can change their ways even the worst out their.

[Erin]

Again, people... back up, take a breath, and think for a minute. It's a little bit ridiculous to be crying "cover-up" or accusing officials of preferential treatment when there is no evidence of anything like that happening. Most of the Monday-Friday 9-5 horse industry people (which includes the AHSA, USET, the Chronicle, Practical Horseman, etc.) just found out about this incident yesterday. To complicate matters, most of the eastern seaboard is under a foot of snow. I'm quite sure that the only "cover-up" here is Mother Nature's doing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As I said before, let's give everyone involved a little bit of credit to do their jobs, until they prove they deserve otherwise.

I understand that everyone is deeply affected by this, but realistically, it's going to take a while for the pieces of the puzzle to come together. No one is going to have all the answers tomorrow. And as several other people (thankfully) have said, there is no point in passing judgment until all the facts are in. Doing otherwise is taking part in a prototypical witch-hunt, and I know the people on this board are more reasonable than that.

Oh, and pretty please, don't put the Chronicle (i.e. -- ME!) on the receiving end of an email campaign. I'm already without my regular computer and stuck on a laptop... it's hard enough for me just to keep on top of this thread! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif

BTW, as for the question of when this will actually appear in the magazine... I would seriously doubt it can make it into this Friday's issue (Jan. 28) because today is the day that we go to press. In fact, since I'm not sure if anyone at the Chronicle was able to snowshoe to work today, I'm not sure if there WILL be an issue this Friday! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Most likely, there will be some news of this in the following issue. But as I said, Tricia and I will try to keep you guys posted on any developments.

[SGray]

Let's consider the Rules of the AHSA.

Article 702. Violations. A violation is any act prejudicial to the best interests of the AHSA, including but not limited to the following:

a) Violation of the rules of the AHSA.

b) Disqualification by a Recognized competition.

c) Penalization by an administrative agency, humane society or court of law for violation of AHSA Rules.

d) Acting or inciting or permitting any other to act in a manner contrary to the rules of the AHSA, or in a manner deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the sport and the AHSA.

e) Any act committed or remark made in connection with the competition considered offensive and/or made with the intent to influence or cast aspersions on the character or integrity of the licensed officials, approaching a judge before or after a decision without first obtaining permission from the show committee or steward/technical delegate, inspecting a judge's card without the judge's permission, or public verbal abuse of competition officials.

f) Physical assault upon a person and/or cruelty to a horse as defined in Art. 302.

g)..h)..i)..j)....

By the majority of the accounts of the incident, it occurred in a ring that was not part of a show or show grounds. So you would need to have witnesses willing to testify before "an administrative agency, humane society or court of law" that Mr. Morris committed an "act prejudicial to the best interests of the AHSA". Said agency would have to find against Mr. Morris, then the AHSA could consider a sanction.

I would consider the above unlikely - my assumption being that potential witness's were students or employees of Mr. Morris. Heresay is not acceptable testimony. It will be interesting to see what comes to light once we get more definitive information on the table.

[Monica S]

I will stand behind my statement that GM is a very harsh and demanding instructor. I have very good friends who have ridden in his clinics and they all tell the same story. Many of the participants were in tears. I have seen him teaching, and his knowledge is evident, but so is his demeaning attitude towards the students. Maybe once a rider has passed the acid test, he gets kinder - I have not stayed at Hunterdon, nor have I personally known anyone who became a 'favorite student' of GM. But Kathy J. - Have you seen him teach? Have you ridden for him? Are you saying that he DOESN'T throw dirt clods at students for not paying attention? I am not attacking, I am stating what I understand to be actual fact. His teaching style is harsh and domineering. He is entitled to teach with any style that he wants - he certianly makes more money than I ever will. My point was just that this is his attitude towards Human students - and I cannot believe that he would have a completely different one towards his horses. And I don't really think he should be singled out and 'punished' for this incident. I think all the riders were willing participants, and that GM took a risk, and it backfired. And yet I am sure that he has used the same technique without incident 1000's of other times. I don't even think that there need to be further rules passed - I think that people either choose to operate morally, or they don't. Rules are just something to 'get around', and they are more prone to penalize those people who seek to abide by them. No, my call is just for people to look at how many of the top trainers in the horse industry are treating horses. This is not a singular incident - it is a tragic pinacle of a tradition of coersive training stradegies. I wish for people to stop looking at horses as lazy clods who won't work unless they are kicked, pulled and pushed into it. Yes, horses are by nature 'conservative with their energy' and we can use that to modify their behavior into something we desire by making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard - but a well treated horse is a willing participant,and does not need to be made into a beaten slave who works out of fear of punishment. Trainers who cannot figure this out are doing the horses and their students a huge disservice, because they are shattering the bond that can exist between a horse and a rider. Trainers who scream at their students and batter their horses, or resort to gimmicks and tricks to extract a little more out of the horse are just demonstrating that they don't have the patience or the knowledge to do it right - and they have to settle for a flawed outcome - which usually results in a horse who goes lame or mentally burns out and either becomes too tense to perform, or too dead to try. It also results in young riders who lose heart with the sport, and quit, or worse yet, riders who embrace the push-pull training phylosophy and go on to teach it to the next generation.
Isn't it time we turned back? Can't we consider something better? This isn't about one man - or one horse's death, it is about choosing a better path. And it is a personal choice that each rider makes each time they put a halter on a horse. But we need more good role models out there to help people learn the right way to communicate with a horse. People are HUNGARY for this. They know that they want that mystical centaur relationship that every child dreams of - but over the years they have begun to believe that it is not only elusive, it doesn't exist. That you can't work with horses that way. And so they settle for whatever is made available to them. We need to do better. And this incident may provide the catalyst for this kind of change. And if GM 'sees the light' and leads the way, I will happily fall in line behind him and carry the banner! But if he doesn't, then I will continue to shout 'It Can Be Better, Kinder, and More FUN than this!'. m

[Pat]

SGray, I still think that the AHSA has NO authority in this matter. It happened in an area not part of the show grounds. The AHSA can only control what goes on at a show.

The only person that can cry foul is the owner of the horse, and possibly the rider if they are not the same person.

I think we have a right to be outraged by this incident. For years people have looked to this man for guidance because was supposed to be the father of equitation. And now this happens...

I think this disscussion did calm down a bit and then that rude little Cowboy person got our knickers in a twist again.

[Louise]

My thanks to Erin and Tricia (Erin, keep that laptop smokin!) I certainly apologise if anything that I have said in any of my posts have been inflammatory, but, I, like everyone else, just want to know, and like most humans, get a little impatient at times.

[wtywmn4]

Pat couldn't agree more, LOL....That Cowboy person did get us all waded up, it probably was the intent all along.

Monica, your posts are very astute and thought provoking...plus you just make darn good sense. Thank you......

[SGray]

Pat

I began writing almost as you stated, that since the alleged incident is not said to have occurred on the show grounds then the AHSA would have no jurisdiction but then I considered the Ward matter. Wasn't the basis of the Barney W. suspension a conviction for insurance fraud? Nothing to do with an actual show? That's when I went to review the rulebook.

Now, as to Mr. Morris - I was not there nor were any of my close friends, thus, I cannot be a judge of the incident. The reaction to the reports we have received thus far have been harsh but if in the end it works to promote the health and safety of the horses then it will have been overall to the betterment of our sports I would think. As with the worries expressed all year over the deaths of horses involved in the crosscountry phase of combined training we must be aware of how these events might affect the public perception of our sports.

[fromCanada]

In this rapidly shrinking world, due to the mammoth growth of internet communications we are going to become more and more aware of terrible accidents, such as this tragedy, happening all over the world. In the pre-technology days, this would have been a story that was known by a small group of people, spread out a bit by word of mouth, perhaps get in the Palm Beach paper, but never spread to the magnitude such as is possible now. I'm way over on Vancouver Island, in Canada, and this story has affected me today.
Technology has it's plus's and minuses - we will be barraged by more bad news than ever before, which can be depressing, and some may be overwhelmed. But, we can hopefully try to gain something from this loss and be more alert as riders...constantly watching for possible dangers to our horses. (I started thinking about the common metal poles and chain sets used to set up temporary dressage rings...could be trouble waiting there)...anyways, just wanted to give my condolences to the owners, the people that were close to that horse, and it's rider. They will be in my thoughts and prayers tonight, as well will George, who I hope has learned from this and will be able to express his thoughts and feelings to us all in a way that will enable us to forgive his mistake(s). We've all done many careless things that luckily have gone by without consequence. For George, this one didn't...imagine, as a coach, actually witnessing the event and being a prime person involved in a horse's traumatic death, and knowing that YOU may well have prevented it... I'm sure he will have nightmares for a long time and many regrets...

[Jessica Kuhn]

"That Cowboy person did get us all waded up, it probably was the intent all along."

I lurk here a lot, but I don't post much, but I just have to say that "That Cowboy person" is a fake, I'm sure of it. If you read carefully, "he" knows too much about this industry to be what he claims and it makes no sense that he would come here. I'm certain it is someone who already posts regularly, but wanted to make a point they couldn't make under their usual name/pseudonym. I wouldn't waste time reacting to that kind of post.

[Sunny]

This is my concern.
If this incident is dismissed because it presumably occured off show grounds, then governing associations such as the AHSA/USET are useless.

Off grounds schooling areas will become an instant hot item.....

We are dealing with rules and a rule book that would choke an elephant.
Shouldn't a members behavior on and off show grounds be considered?

Expecting our Industry publications and governing associations to take a moral stand is not unreasonable.

We should expect a full disclosure of this incident.

Putting off questions because of legal ramification is an interesting and over-used slant.....

[rusti]

Hey, Was that horse that Barney Ward had a hand in electrocuting at an AHSA show when it was brutally murdered-I don't think he was but B.Ward was rightly sanctioned by the AHSA. So why would GM be any different.
Also I've said this before and will say it again. Anyone who has been around the H/J industry in the "big leagues" for any period of time KNOWS that poling and use of metal poles is common practice. I've never heard of such a horrible incident coming from it before(although that is not to say it hasn't happened-we just don't know about it) and even though other tradgitys have not occurred to our knowelege doesn't mean it is not a cruel and inhumane training method. Wake up people-it is your job as the owner of the horse to protect it. A pro doesn't have any emotional attatchment to your horse-you need to be there and have the guts to say no when something is not right! I'm sure most of the people on this board do just that-however some people want to win at all costs, care litte about their horses if that wasn't the case these practices would not be continuing to happen. I wonder how many people out there have used similar methods without a tragic outcome? Just because an "accident" didn't occur doesn't make the practice any less wrong.

[Becca]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MB Stark:
Again I am in agreement with you Kathy Johnson, This is NOT a man that badgers or insults everyone who rides with him. Obviously 99% of the people who are contributing to this board have not ever ridden with this extremely talented teacher. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So SO many of the comments that have been made on this post are based on ntohing. Its slightly ridiculous. i KNOW mr. Morris has earned a huge amount of his respect honestly. This incident was horrible. I have my opinions on it. But he does NOT badger every student, the public has very verylimited knowledge as to what goes on on the inside, how he is with many of his students, and what he is like as a person. Judgements can be made based on fact, and personal knowlegde, but the grapevine? Really.

[Meg]

This is just sad that someone of such stature in the horse world would make such a stupid move in the first place. And then to just go on as if nothing had happened, it's reprehensible! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif
Are horses so easy to come by for him that he can just shrug off this death? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Somewhere tonight I hope someone is crying for that horse because I know I will.

[Lois]

Lets keep a little perspective here, folks. Barney Ward & George Lindemann were tossed out of the ASHA not only for being convicted of federal crimes, but conspiring to do so in the first place. That requires planning and intent to do the crime.

If we start banning people for every error in judgement, any incident an animal is placed in danger, we're going to have to be chucking folks out daily. How many times have you changed lanes without using your turn signal to indicate your intentions? That is an example of endagering others, and just because an accident didn't happen, doesn't mean one couldn't have resulted.

If you want to read the reasoning behind the AHSA's penalties in the Ward case, head over here: [http://www.equisearch.com/newsroom/1998news/nf_ahsa6.22.html]

If it is proven in a court of law that Mr. Morris violated a federal, state, or local law, or intended injury to the horse or rider, I'll leap to lead the lynch mob that has formed. Until then, lets not compare oranges to poison apples.

If you use the arguement that Mr. Morris should have anticipated the danger, think of hte times you've cut corners around the barn, let a friend ride without a helmet, asked a horse to jump when you knew the distance wasn't there. Do you want the AHSA yanking your membership whenever that happens? All those examples could have lead to serious injury or death, and you could have been avoided the risk but didn't.

Its a slippery slope once a precident has been set which is in the "gray" area of the rules. Are you sure you're ready for the consequences?

[huntergirl]

As I said on another post I am new in the horse show world, so please excuse my lack of knowledge.From reading this post I have learned about the accident with Mr. Morris. How sad for the horse and rider involved.I am of the thought that if I am not there to see it for myself I can't comment on it!I think that if it was a case of abuse than Mr. Morris will be sanctioned no matter if he were on the showgrounds or not. If it is not the way the story is told here then all on these boards should take a step back and make sure that next time they know the facts first.

[Sunny]

Wow Lois. Cruelty to an animal resulting in its death is probably a local and state offense.
And just because poling with metal is done regularly in this industry doesn't mean it is okay.
Maybe when something like this is pounced on, it will send a message.
I hope that message isn't 'do it without witnesses'.
The comment that 'we would be throwing members out on a daily basis' is saying quite a bit about the situation.

Cruelty resulting in an animals death is not a matter to be taken lightly.

Everyone is so skittish about the SPCA and other animal protection groups.

If we don't want their intrusion, then we need to set our own standards higher, and make everyone EVERYONE accountable....

ACCIDENT? What might that definition be?

I don't think Accident fits the situation of someone deliberately placing a dangerous object in the way of a horse.

Yes, we should wait until the facts are in.

But, as history will confirm, people will continue to speculate until George speaks.

When something this horrific occurs, it is quite impossible to silence the shocked reactions.

And, if we sat quietly-by, saying nothing, without this out-pour. it would be sadder. And that too would be the wrong message.

Silence on either side promotes speculation.

We wait for George to speak.

[poltroon]

Setting aside the issue of poling in general, I saw a few posts where the posters "would never jump a metal pipe" but use PVC rails instead.

Be aware that PVC can be very nasty, especially if homemade rails are used. They are light (making them very likely to come off the jump in the just manner described for this accident) and shatter into sharp, pointy shards if they break, making them very likely to cause an impaling accident as described here. I wear an impressive scar as testimony, and all I did was fall on a commercial PVC standard where the owner had not sprung for end caps.

[Pat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sunny:
This is my concern.
If this incident is dismissed because it presumably occured off show grounds, then governing associations such as the AHSA/USET are useless.

Off grounds schooling areas will become an instant hot item.....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH, Sunny, they already are! There are so many reasons trainers are snatching up all the properties around the showgrounds. Having a place to "do as they please" is one of them. Yup, there are plenty of honest trainers out there more interested in a nice place to school and turn out the horses, so I'm not shaking my fingers at everyone.

[Pat]

Oh, yes Poltroon you are so right. And you should see how far those PVC rails can fly. I have only used the PVC rails once and will never, ever do it again.

All of the standards at the place I board and the place I teach do have the caps on top of the standards. I implore anyone who used them to be sure that the caps are screwed down as well, not just placed on top it a rush.

[Joker]

I am new to this but I find myself very sad and disheartened by all of this. While I am not the biggest GM fan I had always respected him and I cannot believe his poor judgement. I won't pass judgement on him until I know all the facts but I will say this: my opinion of GM is tarnished forever. I love my horse and if that owner/rider did get on another horse and finish that clinic I say what kind of horse person are they? People think of horses like machines and things that easily replaced - I can't understand that! This whole thing is a nightmare for the horse industry. I am very anxious to hear all the facts and my heart and thoughts are with that poor horse who gave his all!

[SingAlongQuillo]

**QUOTE**
You point is the same as mine, the trainer knew exactly what he
was doing, and new the dangers. To say someone "should know
better" implies that they are ignorant or were momentarily stupid.
For example, an experienced rider who reads a book about
schooling with a metal pole and goes out in their backyard and
tries it - should know better. I don't think ignorance or momentary
stupidity are the case here, again assuming this is true. To say
"should have know better" implies a certain innocence that I don't
think applies. It was a deliberate decision. I am with you.
Gry
**ENDQUOTE**

I've no idea how to deal with quoted material on here, sorry..

I guess I'm not terribly terrific at expressing myself, but that's basically what I meant. /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Innocent is when the knowledge necessary isn't there.. when I said "even us 2'6 1x/weekers know better" I pretty much meant that if I know better when I have limited riding experience, then someone with that high of a reputation can't NOT know better, and therefore it should never have happened. And then it does happen and people start to wonder what kind of people they're looking up to, be it GM or anybody else, well-known or not.

But I would consider it stupidity, perhaps not momentary, but then if it was the first time he did it (somehow I doubt that?) then it would have been momentary. Either way it was stupid, and I'd personally say ignorant because he was ignoring blatant dangers that he *knew* were there, even if he didn't imagine them to be so severe.

I guess I caused a bit of a mess there with that statement /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif but I do believe that whatever the reasons he had for having that pole up, it still had no business being there and the accident was preventable... Especially with him being a figure of importance in the horse industry.

IMO the saddest part is that what he (and other prominent figures) preaches is what all those new riders, especially the young and impressionable ones, will look up to and take after. Afterall "If George (or insert other esteemed person here) does it, it must be right" And the cycle repeats itself, the power and freedom the horse shows us slowly disappears, getting more horrific every time...

[Regalmeans]

I am sadden by this incident. Whether or not you like/liked GM he was well respected and has done alot for the sport. But this is unforgivable and truly tragic. This isn't so much an accident as pure and utter STUPIDITY. I hope to soon learn the facts so we can fairly judge and more fully comprehend what happened.

[SingAlongQuillo]

Please forgive my blatant stupidity, but this question has been bothering me since I first read it, and I can't seem to find the answer in any of my books...

What exactly is an offset?

I know that it's a part of a jump, and stationary (not like poling where people lift the pole), but is it a natural part of a jump? (if so, what part?) or a training technique?

[hilltop]

I read on one of these treads about GM and the WPB accident that someone should speak up who has the ability to stand up and have some guts. They mantioned Andrew Philbrick. For those who don't know GM and Andrew Philbrick are very tight. They do a lot of things together through GM's rider Chris Kappler. I don't think he is the one to call on for this matter.

[austinfreud]

Although I was not present for the terrible accident that caused a beautiful animal to perish, the complete lack of regard for both the animal and amateur rider, who was exposed to the reprehensible actions of one of the so called 'top trainers in the country', is shameful and should be punished.
The use metal pipes to construct a fence instead of a breakaway woodent pole gives the indication that the "Little General" is totally callous and cares little for the horse or rider.

By definition, an amateur rider should always train and ride in such controlled environments as to minimize injury. The use of metal pipes, especially with an amateur, goes against all axioms used in amateur riding.

The AHSA is not recognized for its forthright approach to retribution and punishment against well known people in the horse world unless it's hand is forced, as evidenced by the most recent insurance scams. In those cases, as we all know, the AHSA has backed down to the pressures from the small minds in the inner circle of alleged vigilant equestrians who, in fact, care little for the riders, owners, or horses and only wish to pad their own wallets with the spoils of cruelty.

The "Little General's" attempts to cover up his failures as a human being by fabricating a story in which the horse impaled itself with caulks and not own up to the truth of the horse dying due to a metal pole piercing the horses heart is just an embellishment of his callous attitudes to rider and horse alike. An example must be made of the "Little General" and at the minimum suspension from all activities relating to horse shows, a significant fine, a personal apology to the horse world and limitation of involvement with amateurs for an extended period of time.

I'm not sure if the this trainer can be reformed. We've all seen the pomposity of his actions in the past and his feelings of self worth. Unfortunately, we cannot expect a change in someone who has so little regard for anyone other than himself. Therefore, it is time to challenge the governing body of the AHSA to take control of this member.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by austinfreud:
The "Little General's" attempts to cover up his failures as a human being by fabricating a story in which the horse impaled itself with caulks and not own up to the truth of the horse dying due to a metal pole piercing the horses heart is just an embellishment of his callous attitudes to rider and horse alike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Y'know, I think I'm a pretty patient person, but some of the attitudes here are really starting to tick me off. I have always said that the only rules of this board are to be nice and be respectful. I don't care if it's George Morris or George Jetson, but unfounded allegations are NOT OKAY. Ever.

If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but since both the Chronicle and Practical Horseman have reported that George isn't able to comment on the issue at this time, I'm dubious as to how and to whom he related this "fabricated story" about impaling caulks. There is so much unsubstantiated rumor flying around this whole issue, it's utterly ridiculous.

I want it to stop... now. I'm not one to squash free speech, but comments like these are just inflammatory and are hardly constructive. I'm extremely hesitant to close any topic on this board... but I will close this one if this trend continues. It's gone far enough.

Now... as for the AHSA. The reason they were able to suspend all the insurance fraud people is because they were either convicted of or pleaded guilty to their crimes. The due process of courts of law were followed, decisions were handed down, and then the AHSA was able to take action.

At the moment, it doesn't appear likely that the AHSA has jurisdiction in this case because it did not take place at an AHSA show. (Although this has yet to be confirmed, it looks like the most likely scenario.) It also seems unlikely that any laws were broken. Bottom line: the AHSA may not have much recourse in this situation.

Now, can we all attempt to return to some semblance of civil, adult discussion? Or do I have to put on my mean old moderator hat and get nasty? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Saddlebag]

Good for you, Erin!