Schooling Incident at Palm Beach

[Kathy Johnson]

>Since I touted the virtues of Bert deNemethy's approach to turning out top jumpers, I took a quick look at the book.

Apparently I was wrong, he does find the use of a metal pole helpful with a stale horse.

Not as an offset or as the top or back rail, but placed on top of the top rail to give the
horse a bit of a scare if he hits it. The theory being that it makes a noise when it falls and will startle the horse. He feels that a heavy enough pole will not fly in front of the horse if hit but will instead drop to the ground.

_____________________________________________

Apparently there is a clear precedent for using metal poles in jumping, included also in Steinkraus' book. (Now, I am certainly not saying that makes it OK, just that there is a precedent--and I hope it will change). From the posts on this board, there is also a clear precedent for horse's being impaled on non-metal objects. So, I would not be surprised if Mr. Morris is cleared of any wrongdoing.

There is still no clear answer as to whether the horse in this case was being poled or as to whether the metal pole was a part of the jump. What is an offset, anyway?

I do not like poling either, but I think some of you are using this horrible accident as a springboard for your own agendas, whether it is to crucify George Morris, push for stronger poling rules, or push for AHSA jurisdiction off the show grounds.

Whether your motives are pure and for the good of the horse, or for your own reasons, I have no way of knowing. All I know is that there is very little compassion for the human elements in this story, and I find that sad.
Like Erin, I am interested in freedom of speech, but I also know a little about libel. That which is untrue and damaging to the character is libel if it is in writing. Slander is spoken. I don't know much about Internet libel suits, but I am pretty sure some of you are crossing the line.

Every time you put your horse in that little metal box you call a horse trailer, you are putting his life on the line (see post on horses killed in Tx). Every time you point him at a jump, you are putting both your lives on the line. Do you know how many people were killed last year in recognized events?

When a big name is involved, things take on the tone of a National Enquirer type scandal. But, there is a mob mentality here that smacks of a witchhunt, as Erin said. May you have the patience to wait....

(sorry for the novel)

[Tricia Booker]

According to officials at Littlewood, the private/leased show rings adjacent to the show grounds are NOT part of the LITTLEWOOD show grounds. To my knowledge, if this had happened during a WEF show there MAY have been a different scenario regarding AHSA jurisdiction. But since it was during a Littlewood show there's a distinct difference. None of those in question were entered at the Littlewood show. Littlewood is under different management than WEF shows and from what I understand are complete and separate entities.

I'm sure there are more details to come. But that's the understanding I have at this point.

Tricia

[Doubleeez]

Goodmudder, current AHSA schooling rules require grand prix horses to be on the grounds 24 hours before the start of the class. It is then, and only then, that the AHSA has jurisdiction over the horse's schooling which is overseen by the Steward and the Supervisor of Schooling. The complete time the horse is on the grounds it is subject to AHSA schooling rules. Off the grounds anything goes. So I think we have here a "grounds" question. Is a private ring leased from a show facility a part of the showgrounds or not? Guess we need a lawyer for this one!

[chief]

My trainer is in WPB, rides with George, and had not even heard of the incident. She did say, however, that he is still using the metal rod, although did not say whether it was used as an offset or for poling.

Kathy- an offset is almost a "transparent" thin pole, usually made of bamboo and usually wrapped in grey duck tape. It's placed on a jump as a back rail for schooling. Essentially, horses cannot see it- so you ride them to the "back rail" of the jump, they knock right into it- you come back without the offset, jump the jump again, and they usually jump much much higher.

Unfortunately, I have been asked to do this on occasion, but more often in the hunters than the jumpers. I do not agree with it and my heart would jump in my throat everytime! Like many riders who truly respect and believe in their trainers, it's often hard to say "no, I won't do it." However, this whole incident, regardless of what we learn about the true story, will make it a heck of a lot easier!

As someone who has looked up to GM for years, and rides with several students of his, I am incredibly disheartened with his involvement, but to Erin's point, will withhold judgement until he speaks.

[Beans]

While it would be understandable that GM isn't commenting on this incident, that's no excuse for the Chronicle and Practical Horseman to have no reporting of the incident by now. There has clearly been sufficient time for them to investigate and interview people who were there, it's their duty to report what happens, no just quote those involved. We get up to the minute news on just about everything, including lots of things we don't care about, with the time that's passed already, the FACTS of what happened and who was involved or in attendance cannot be out of the reach of responsible reporters. Wouldn't you agree?

[Yankee+Mia]

Listen, this incident with George Morris has gone too far. The worst part is that most of this is a case of assumption. The details have been changed and directed towards George being a so called, "murderer". THIS WAS AN ACCIDENT! I often travel to hunterdon with my barn for lessons and have jumped that jump so many times. it was used as a good training technique for form, etc. sure, maybe there was a mistake without capping the ends but then again, it was a freak accident. I think that riders should take time to calm down and realize that this could have just been as easily thier training. There must be a large debate because George is the "God" of showjumping. I am not provoking a fight, I am just standing up for what I think has happened.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IlonaE:
While it would be understandable that GM isn't commenting on this incident, that's no excuse for the Chronicle and Practical Horseman to have no reporting of the incident by now. There has clearly been sufficient time for them to investigate and interview people who were there, it's their duty to report what happens, no just quote those involved. We get up to the minute news on just about everything, including lots of things we don't care about, with the time that's passed already, the FACTS of what happened and who was involved or in attendance cannot be out of the reach of responsible reporters. Wouldn't you agree?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IlonaE, in case you don't know, the Chronicle is a weekly publication. Practical is a monthly. Neither of us is CNN, and neither has the resources to provide up-to-the-minute news. We have begun investigating the story and have already provided the facts we have. Our Jan. 28 issue went to press yesterday afternoon (hopefully) and we were not able to get all the necessary facts by presstime. Being responsible reporters, we thought it best to get the whole story before we published anything.

As I have repeatedly stated, we will pass along any new facts when we get them, as a courtesy to the readers of this board (rather than making you all wait at least another week and a half, until the next issue is be available online). I think that's plenty reasonable. Wouldn't you agree?

I've already gotten one email requesting that this thread be shut down because it's gotten so out of hand. I'm hoping the witch-hunt is over and that responsible discussion can continue, but I'm open to other options. Please email me at erin@chronofhorse.com if you have an opinion either way.

[SGray]

Over the course of this thread we have had posters take the time to look up and give us quotes from books written by Steinkraus and deNemethy regarding the use of metal poles as schooling aids as well as anecdotal evidence from others that it is common practice (at least here in US). So, we have trainers who are considered as experts, well respected and well established in the sport (St. deN. and M. as well as others I'm sure) that use the technique in certain circumstances. Given then that this is established as being "accepted" practice within the sport (and given the publication dates of the books, long established) then perhaps some of us should rethink the positions here regarding the idea that anyone and everyone should have known better than to use such a technique; that such a technique was bound to cause this outcome. From these sketchy reports it seems that Mr. Morris was using a tool established for many years and used by many prior to this - thus, the event surely must be relegated "accident" status in that such an outcome, although conceivable, had not been experienced before this tragedy.

Now, debate over whether such a tool should be used is another matter - since the horrible consequences have now been seen, perhaps trainers will rethink such usage.

[Jumping101]

I could not agree more with the moderators. Let's keep the dicussion to the facts.
#1 There was a metal pipe used. It IS in the posession of someone on the showgrounds. There is blood on it. Caulks were not the villain here.
#2 Using metal pipes and jumping tripe bars backwards shows very poor judgement, by any trainer. Having Adult amateurs school over these is careless, BAD horsemanship.
#3 This schooling area is surrounded by stable tents, from which anyone could sit and watch this.
#4 Before the Atlanta Oympics, one team got in BIG trouble because their jumps were incorrect schooling jumps. The FEI made sure that these team members were punished.
#5 Paul Schoekemole received a very hard time from HIS federation for poling a horse at his OWN farm.. not on show grounds.
#6 Read the AHSA's code of conduct.
#7 The lesson continued with a dead horse in the ring.
#8 Every rider, trainer and owner needs to make this perfectly clear the this type of abuse ( and that is abuse ) will not be tolerated... on off or adjacent to any show grounds.

[Trixie]

Personally, I think this arguement has gone far beyond "a horse died when it was impaled by a metal pole that it shouldn't have been jumping in the first place." It's become the George Morris arguement, and the truth is that there are so many conflicting opinions on him, that it will fill up a zillion pages of "he's a god" or "he's horrible."
Either or, this has gone beyond the poor horse.

[Jumphigh83]

What about the clause in the rule book that goes something like "predjudicial to the best interest of the AHSA.." It doesn't say anything about on the grounds or off...just any action that would not be in the best interest of the industry..Something to think about...You really need an attorney to read that rule book anyway. There are loopholes that you could throw a COW through!

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>#4 Before the Atlanta Oympics, one team got in BIG trouble because their jumps were incorrect schooling jumps. The FEI made sure that these team members were punished.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FEI rules are different.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>#7 The lesson continued with a dead horse in the ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I highly, highly doubt that this is the case. Sounds like another rumor to me.

[muckinout]

While I will reserve my judgement on the WPB incident, it does bring to light an industry-wide problem......everyone seems to want to "hurry up and get there"!

The show industry itself moves at a break-neck pace. But we, the customers, fall right into the trap...we want to hurry up and get somewhere...but where?

Why not slow down, enjoy the growth, development and training of a good horse, or a top notch breeding program...as Robert Dover has said "Enjoy the journey, not just the destination".

Do we forget that we, the customers, call the shots? We can move at our own pace, and be certain our training dollars are properly and ethically spent. We do not have to support training short-cuts, poor horse care or sportsmen with little integrity. It is up to us to shape our horseworld!

[WBxTB]

Why can't everyone be patient and wait for the accurate information to come out? Speculating won't bring the horse back... And since no one here seems to have been there, standing next to George's schooling area and observing the accident, I don't believe any speculation is worthwhile. It was a sad, devastating accident where the life of a horse was UNFAIRLY taken.

By the way, to the poster who stated that the reason trainers rent off-grounds barns was so that they could train "their way" - you are terribly mistaken. The real reason they rent barns off the show grounds is because they need a real "barn" for the animals to live. These people are normally in Wellington for 3 to 6 months and their horses need to be away from the horse show during the weeks they don't show - for rest and relaxation. The horses get turnout, rides on the roads/trails, handwalks, etc., basically living the same life they live at home.

[KitBC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SGray:
The reaction to the reports we have received thus far have been harsh but if in the end it works to promote the health and safety of the horses then it will have been overall to the betterment of our sports I would think. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would be concerned if the reactions had not been harsh. Complacency never solved a thing. Let's just make sure we are focusing on the real issue -- and that it is a valid one in a court or administrative forum. I don't believe the issue is cruelty, coercion, abuse, even foolishness or poor judgment. And hey, face it -- would George Morris ever be convicted of cruelty or abuse to an animal? I think everyone would agree that there is way too much evidence to the contrary.

To me, the issue is: what do we expect from our horses -- at a show or otherwise -- and how do we attain it? These creatures we are so passionate about are both adaptable and intelligent.

I agree with the poster who said this may encourage a return to classical horsemanship. "Fads Come and Go and Nature Takes Care of What's Unnatural." Anyone recognize that quote?

[This message has been edited by KitBC (edited 01-26-2000).]

[Tower One]

THANK YOU ERIN! I promised I would not return to this board with the hostility and arrogant rhetoric prevailing, and drowning out any voices of reason that try to post. I personally spoke with George Morris this morning for almost a half hour in the booth here at WEF, and while I cannot relate our conversation, because it was personal, off the record and for obvious legal reason. I can tell you that George will address this issue, openly and honestly as soon as he can, I can also tell you this, he is devastated by the incident, and is shocked by the hatred expressed here. Let's wait and hear what George has to say before any more accusations, and hatred fly.

[Gry2Yng]

Sunny,
Please don't take this the wrong way, I agree with you in theory, but lets face it, the heart of our sport is placing an obstacle (my grandmother would call this a dangerous object) in front of the horse and asking him to jump it. I am really just making subtle distinctions, not because I believe in poling, but because I think it is often a fine line that we walk in the sports of SJ and Eventing.
There are certainly people who believe that our idea of sport is dangerous at best, cruel at worst and they would not see the distinction between a metal pole and a wood pole or a metal pole and a solid cross country obstacle. While I do not agree with poling, I would not have to look hard to find someone who does not agree with riding cross country. I hope I am making myself clear and do not sound like I am attacking you, because I am not. I love my sport and I love my horses and I respect everyone's right to have an opinion.

SGray
Thank you for so eloquently making you point regarding the on-going practice of using metal poles and why you consider this an accident. I tried and failed to make that point earlier and ended up coming off very poorly.

[This message has been edited by Gry2Yng (edited 01-26-2000).]

[dbfoxtrot]

I was just sent this site from a friend and can not belive our teachers are teaching us to disregard our animals safety. We should also consider if those riders at the clinic where our childern or grandchildern. How must they feel if they were watching such an event!!!! Would they ever want to ride again. This should leave scars on all the people who attended this clinic, and should move them to go to a higher authority to take some type of action against GM and his clinics. He should be held accountable for his actions. If this, so called expert, is doing this type of training, then what are others doing. Now they have an excuse by saying GM does it in his clinics.

I am impressed with the amount of comments on this and truely believe that if you wnat something to be done and happpen then make it so. LET US ALL UNITE IN THIS CAUSE!!! We can not help the poor horse but maybe we can prevent it from happening again.

[poltroon]

I am not particularly a fan of George Morris. Though I enjoy his writings, in person his ego dwarfs his intellect and experience. I respect his accomplishments, but I can think of dozens of horsemen I would rather spend my life learning with before I'd feel the need to ride in a clinic with him.

Some of the charges here, though, reflect a serious lack of critical thinking. Several people have written that it is always wrong and unacceptably and even cruelly dangerous to jump over a metal pole in any circumstance. This is patently silly. There is nothing inherently more wrong about jumping metal than a big pile of lumber - it's all in the setup of the elements. How many of you have old, damaged jump poles, bought ten years ago from the cheapest possible supplier, that you jump over every day?

Someone wrote that using a metal pole was cruel, and that instead the rider should have forced the horse into a deep spot for a rap.

Think critically, now. How is that better? How is it even different? Both are lying to the horse, in an attempt to get him to jump higher. If the horse successfully jumps higher, no rap. One just can't be policed. (And frankly, most of us amateurs aren't so good that we don't lie to our horses by accident all the time, anyway. Is it so cruel that riding should be outlawed?)

I have never poled or worked with anyone who used any poling techniques, but I really appreciate William Steinkraus' frank and thorough explanation (as quoted here earlier) in his book. I feel his argument is extremely well thought out and compelling for why the use of a metal pole on a fence could be valuable in schooling in certain circumstances, and what those might be. Bad poling is certainly abuse. But, like draw reins and gag bits, I can see that sometimes the use of a stationary pole could be a sensible, sane, and humane choice.

It sounds like this setup was not the safest possible given the sketchy descriptions I've read/inferred. But, that does not make it cruel, reckless, or criminal. Would it be criminal, cruel, or reckless if a trainer's student suffered a severe brain injury because he allowed the student to jump with an unapproved helmet? We don't prosecute people for murder or even reckless endangerment for allowing their loved ones to ride in Miatas instead of Volvos.

The death of a horse or rider in a riding accident is tragic, and I'm very sad for the people who loved that horse. I'm glad this incident came to light, as a reminder to all of us to be as safe as possible and think carefully about the methods we use. But, though Americans seem to have trouble with this concept, sometimes bad things just happen. There is not always someone to blame.

[Flash44]

There does not seem to be any criminal actions involved in this "accident." However, negligence probably contributed to the incident and the severity of the injury, which resulted in the death of a horse.

If you were teaching a riding lesson and knowingly overmounted a student, and that student fell off and got hurt, you would most likely be found to be negligent. Or if a stirrup leather broke on a school horse and the rider fell off and got hurt, you would be negligent if the leather was found to be in poor condition. In everything you do, you have to be aware of dangerous situations and how they may affect others around you. Wells are not left uncovered, you shovel and salt your walk and drive, businesses keep floors clean and dry, you wear a seatbelt and ask your passengers to do the same, you obey your community rules and regulations. If more common sense was used, fewer laws and regulations would have to be drafted and passed.

[Meg]

OK, I'm new to this board and I'm not a very experienced rider _and_ I don't know a whole lot about training, George Morris or this case.
What I do know is that we don't have a lot of facts and until we do we all need to stop where we are, calm down, take a step back and wait until we have more facts. From what I have seen so far there are a lot of different ways to react to this situation and not all of them are based on cold hard fact.
I can imagine that there are at least a dozen first hand accounts of these events, from Morris himself, to those taking part in the clinic to people who were just watching along the sidelines. And from what I have seen in life there will probably be as many variations in the accounts as there are people who saw what happened. They may vary by a little or a lot, but we all need to wait until we know for sure what happened.

[Regalmeans]

This accident was not 'negligence' it was STUPIDITY. A metal pole on the jump was not an accident. It was deliberate. It is obvious that a metal pole can be dangerous yet it was knowingly plced there and a trainer knowingly asked a student to jump it - and so it was done.

Lessons to learn from this?

~no one is invincible and just b/c someone is a legend doesn't mean they are right. Always think and ask questions before just blindly doing something b/c someone told you too. If only the rider in question had thought to say NO NO NO this wouldn't have happened.

~poling is bad - what a wake up call. God, it's not enough to just scare and ruin horses we have to kill one before we learn????

~not to condemn before we hear all the facts. these rumors about continuing the lesson with a dead horse in the ring, or cleaning off the pole and continuing sound like junk. Let's get some more detailed info before we let ourselves run wil here!

~To as always think before we act. We and only we can keep ourselves and our horses safe and we have a responsiblity to do so.

Instead of simply bashing george and getting all upset let's use this as a chance to take a step back and LEARN from it.....to see what changes needto be made and all.

[muckinout]

Yessiree Hilltop, I can agree with you...perhaps an evolution in attitude is needed here....perhaps changing this 'rush rush' attitude is a terrific topic for a new forum/board...if voices are big enough things can change, although I recognize it takes time. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just plain enjoyed their horses and the sport without constant pressure to win and impress?

[Allyn M]

I have been following the Between Rounds Forum for a long time and have enjoyed it thoroughly.I even feel as if I know some of you.I have probably learned from the various threads more about showing on the hunter/jumper circuit than I ever wanted to know.I have not expressed my opinions much because I tend to get over-excited on the subject of horses.I have loved them since age five and have been known to weep at a wonderful performance by these magnificent beings entrusted to our care.Now that you know that horses are my first concern I want to tell you my story and hope that it will cause some of to think about what you have said.Having bred track horses and Quarter/thoroughbred crosses for some time,I fell in love with a horse at the 1987 Pan-Am games ,BIG BEN.I was the aux.timer in the show-jumping arena so I had the opportunity to study this wonderful horse and decided that this was the kind of horse I wanted to breed.Because I feel that you must learn as much as possible if you want to succeed,I began a study of performance records of European Warmbloods.About two years into breeding my husband began to worry about marketing and I thought I needed some advice so I wrote to George Morris,not really expecting a reply.He called and wanted to talk to us.He did not know us.We are certainly not in the"in" crowd and we come from the mid-west ( not known as a major show-jumping area).Every year since we have seen him in Chicago and he gives his advice freely and graciously.We exchange letters two or three times a year and once when we needed help on something he helped us immediately.I know this much , not only does he love and respect horses,they are his whole life. What you interpret as arrogance is simply high expectations for both riders and horses.If you arent willing to give it your all,don't go into his clinics.
Much of what I read in these posts seems to be resentment of the "in" group and their money at WPB---everything is relative ---there are people probably looking at you and thinking you are a part of some in group.
If you cannot afford a "made" horse ---make one yourself -learn about bloodlines -study conformation and athletic ability - purchase a young suitable prospect and help him to become a winner --- you'll be a better rider for the effort.
Finally I am excited that all of you contributing to these posts are horse lovers first and worry about horse abuse.That too is relative.because I consider it abuse to leave a horse in an enclosed stall ( no matter how fancy ,where he can't stick his head out and visit with his neighbors) for more than 10 hours at a time.I hope all of you posting are seeing that their horses have turn-out.

[Erin]

Folks, this thread is already pretty darn long... and there have been a LOT of issues brought up. It'd probably be better to explore those tangential topics (turn-out, etc.) under new headings. Sound good? Thanks! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[marianne]

These "Between Forum" are just like the back fence with people gossiping and talking about subjects that get blown out of proportion. I went back and re-read the original post. This person did not see something, she heard something and without any rhyme or reason there is a lot of rumors, stories, opinions flying around. I do not know George Morris, or Barney Ward or Mclain Ward or any head poobah of the H/J world. I do not always agree with GM. But until we get facts and verified statements as to what has happened we have villified a person. Erin, this has been a nasty thread and I'll cast my vote to shut it down. I feel I have listening to a bunch of self-sanctimonious harpies. To all of you( I include myself), when you point fingers at other people, remember three fingers point back at you.

[stop4]

Yes, it's true we shouldn't judge untill we have the facts.

However.... Why on Earth would the horse have hit the pole so very HARD!?! That is what I would like to know.

~Was the jump so big that the horse was not really capable of jumping it?

~Was the jump in some kind of course, gymnastic or othe thing that would cause them to meet the jump at a very bad distance?

These are the questions that interest me the most. The horse oviously didn't just tap it, he hit it pretty hard...

[havaklu]

However.... Why on Earth would the horse have hit the pole so very HARD!?! That is what I would like to know. [/QUOTE]

Sandstone, First we don't know if the horse hit the pole hard or soft, with front or back legs, if this was the first attempt, had the jump been raised, whatever.

But to answer your question on how do horses often end up hitting poles hard?

SIMPLE-RIDER ERROR!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif That's why most of us are Amateurs IMO.

[sportspots]

WOW, I cant believe I am going to jump in headfirst and comment on this!! First of all, this behavior goes on everywhere, in every breed, in every discipline. In the breed shows (quarter, app, paint) we all cry it is the judges. Well to some extent it is. If judges start picking the lower headsets, the trainers are gonna get them lower so the judges pick them, no matter what means they need to resort to. If the judges pick them slower, the trainer are going to go to the extreme to get thier horses to perform the way the judges "who play god" want them to. I could go on and on about the seemingly cruel things that go on. The G.M. incident is just a very public example of people doing what this so called "guru" says because they will win the almighty ribbon, rather than saying, "wait a minute, this is MY animal and I will not tolerate anything that is extreme, illegal, or dangerous to thier well being". Those are the people who truely care about thier animal. The ones that go along with such things are the owners who do not see an animal but rather and asset$$$$. So, yes, G.M. is at fault and did the wrong thing, especially with an am/own. but, people, take some of the blame yourselves, stand up for you and your animal. Don't go to extremes, to get the quick fix or highest jump. Take time, make a partnership with your animal. Bring them along slow with confidence, take time to understand thier problems and work them out, not force them out. Know your animal, he may not be the one to take the 5 foot fence, his talent may lie somewhere else. I, for one, did take a stand and refused to turn my 16.2 stallion into what they wanted for thier showring, rather, I looked elsewhere to promote him and show him bringing out the best he had to offer, not the best they wanted to force him into. These animals trust us and obviously risk thier lives to please us. Remember this....these beautiful creatures are not ours, they belong to God and He has so generously entrusted them to us.

[Pat]

Jumping in one more time...

Two things I want to bring up...

1. I talked briefly with a trainer friend who is in WPB and SAW this thing happen. She saw about 90% of the incident and confirmed that the horse died quickly, and that indeed the pole bounced right back up at the horse. More importantly that the Pole was not an offset or placed on top of the top rail, but that the WHOLE jump was made of metal rails. I forgot to ask her how long the horse remained in the ring. Yup, that's more hearsay, but I feel that she is a reliable person. She's pretty upset by the whole thing.

2. This idea that because "everyone else does it" it's okay really doesn't sit well. I say, if everyone else jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you do it too?

So, then since it's a normal practice to stack NSAID's, give long term bute,or give a horse IV bute right before a class, then that's all okay too?

I think that whole arguement has a leaky bottom!!

[Cindy]

Usually when someone's lawyer says they can't comment or they can't comment themselves for "legal reasons," it's because they did WRONG.

Otherwise a full explanation would have been given to the local press, Chronicle, this board, etc. by now.

Hence, a thread with almost 300 posts and an uproar from many of us. When I hear about breaking news on TV I don't get the story two weeks later! George Morris, could we have some facts, please?

Did anyone send a press release or make a call to the local paper?

[Monica S]

Unfortunately many people do
not understand the correct use of much of the equipment available to horsemen.
Spurs are often used to torture and harrass a horse into going forward, while the rider
traps the horse with a tightly held curb in front. It is the USER not the equipment
that causes the problem. My only concern with the GM case is that in my
understanding, ALL the horses in the clinic, or at least all the horses in this particular
session were asked to jump the fence with an offset metal pole The attitude "appears" to
be one that considers ALL horses a 'little lazy' over a fence, and in need of some pain
to make them try harder. It does not appear that it was one specific horse with a
specific form problem that was being addressed - it seems like it was a trap to catch
the horses, and make them Overjump just for the sake of looking fancy over a fence.

Personally, I think the judges should penalize a horse who overjumps by too much. If
you were foxhunting and your horse threw himself into the air clearing each jump with
a foot to spare, you would run out of horse. A good and wise horse knows just how
high to jump to make a clean and safe effort, and that should be enough.

Yes, poling can be used to show a horse how to use his body in the air, just as taps
with whip can teach a horse how to develop more suspension in piaffe - but this does
not appear to be the case here. Nor is it the case in many many of the situations that
occur in the name of show training, and I mean that for ALL the horse sports - from
Arabian Halter to Western Pleasure. It is not a matter of equipment or technique, it is a
question of attitude towards the horses. Are we seeking to show the horse something
and then allow him to develop, or are we Making him Try Harder, Do more and Hurry Up
about it? Let's all think about what we do when we train - does it feel like art? Did it
take years to patiently learn the technique, or is it just something we can buckle on
and pull tight and voila - it makes the horse Look Great? Very rarely is there a piece of
equipment that can do that without doing some damage to the horse. So always
consider what price glory. In this instance, it cost a horse his life. Probably 10,000's of
horses have jumped like this and not been directly injured. But considering the number
of horses who go lame or burn out and become sour, maybe some of the injury is a
little harder to see. That is what I am talking about. Not Let's Get George - because to
do that denies that there is an over all problem. It takes the view that there is one bad
guy, or just a few bad guys, and we can punish them, and then we don't have to feel
guilty about anything that we do. If every trainer who uses gimmicks on most of their
horses were punished and kicked out of ASHA horse shows, the tumbleweeds would roll
down empty barn aisles from Indio to Florida. Think of how many dressage riders attach
draw reins to every horse they ride, every time they ride. It is wrong, but it is common.
The only hope for change is for riders at every level to recognise the problem for what
it is, and decide Not to be a part of it. Even if that means Not winning a ribbon, or not
getting to show as soon as someone who resorts to the short cuts. The reward will be
a truer relationship with our horses, and longevity and soundness, allowing time for the
partnership to mature and blossom. And those rewards seem much more valuable than
a $2 rosette. But more people are going to have to change their mind, and take the
long road, so that we encourage and reward the trainers who are on that path, and
hopefully leading the way for the next generation of riders. It is a change that can only
be made one rider at a time. You can make your contribution today. All you have to do
is choose. m

[jennifer]

I haven't ridden English in years, and I've never shown English, but even I know who George Morris is and even I know that you DO NOT USE METAL POLES FOR JUMPING !!!! I can't imagine... i just want to cry. That poor horse! We need to let everyone know who is behind this tragedy!

[Beans]

Erin - really had to chuckle at your response to my inquiry on why the Chronicle and/or PH haven't reported more information. You said the Chronicle isn't CNN - well then why have a website which is being monitored constantly and then hide behind the "we only publish weekly" excuse? You've left this thread go 8 pages with a lot of mud slinging, more than a few other horse BB's have posts referring readers to this thread - it certainly gives the Chron alot of traffic. If you don't support sensationalism, then don't be a party to it. This has brought so much attention the Chron and other mags with websites can, (and, I personally believe, should) post a news items with the facts they have substantiated.

Perhaps much of the anger and outrage that's been manifested here evidences the frustration that many horse people have over the "double standard" in the horse world (all disciplines). If you play by rules then everybody should play by the same rules, but it clearly becomes obvious that people of celebrity (for whatever reason) don't always get the same swift rap on the knuckles that the "average Joe" can expect. We've already paid for this with the Insurance debacle and people obviously have a total lack of trust in the "waiting for the truth to come out" scenario. There are some truths we are still waiting on - after years.

Do the readers and the horseworld a favor - post a news update about the incident on this website and stop the National Enquirer uproar.

[CarrieK]

I hope everyone remembers that we enjoy the privilege of participating on this discussion board through the invitation of The Chronicle of the Horse. It's their board, after all.

Which isn't to say that posters should not criticize the Chronicle management, its writers and columnists, or any of the articles published. (Although Free Speech *is* relative, you know.)

It is to say that we should not put Erin in a tenuous position. She has requested several times that the tone of the discussion be softened. She shouldn't have to beg us to choose our words carefully.
That she hasn't closed discussion demonstrates that she has faith that we can grab a thesaurus and pick words that will convey our thoughts and feelings without resorting to invective. Let's respond to her faith in us with respect for her.

A writer above stated (and I'm paraphrasing) that the reason a person or that person's lawyer refuses to speak on an incident is because they are guilty. Although this is a commonly-held belief, it's erroneous.

The rules of admission of evidence in a civil liability case are such that statements made outside the court *may* be received as evidence. That means, statements by a person or that person's lawyer and as reported in, say, a newspaper article or television interview could be used in court. And if those statements are misinterpreted, misquoted, quoted out of context or edited, accompanied by inflammatory images...well, certainly it's easy to see how something can be misconstrued. So, to avoid those complications--and, yes, sometimes to muzzle the out-spoken or less-intelligent person--
we have the comment of "No comment." It's "legal"--no one is obligated by law to speak to the press--and it is *not* indicative of guilt or innocence, despite how it "looks."

Also, while it's one thing for us to comment on an incident before the facts have been established--innocent until proven guilty is the *law* only in court; it's merely a *suggestion* elsewhere--it would be highly irresponsible for an attorney to publicly comment on an incident--especially on something potentially litigious--until court papers are filed and reviewed.

As to the responsibility of the trainer, I'm surprised that only a few writers have discussed the free-will of riders. For example: *If* the rider feels, as do many who have written here, that the use of metal poles is dangerous and irresponsible, yet supressed those feelings and followed the directive of the trainer--how can we say that the ultimate responsibility is with the trainer? Or, *if* the rider has seen and used metal poles in training and had no issue with it--again, how can we say that the ultimate responsibility is with the trainer? In the above examples--which, of course, may not jibe with the facts of the situation--the ultimate responsibility is with the rider.

Remember--ultimate responsibility often lies with the rider. That is why the rider, not the grooms or trainers or owners, get sanctioned for violations.

Please don't read the above as a judgment of *blame* on the rider. It's merely an assessment of responsibility.

As for AHSA involvement--I'm not conversant with the rules, but I don't understand how the AHSA could extent its jurisdiction to someone's backyard, or a professional training facility.

Someone posted above in regards to cruelty to animals being a violation of AHSA rules and regulations. Just because there is an injury or death does not mean there was "cruelty to animals." Sometimes and accident is merely an accident.

[wufpack3]

I agree with everyone here that George Morris needs to be suspended, Sued and Worse, But everyone is also bashing the owner. If you all didn't notice it said NOVICE on there. I think most any of us here when we were novices would have done what ever the great George Morris told us to do because when we were novices we didn't know any better. I think we all should think about that a bit before we start bashing the owner.

[Tap2Tango]

I really don't see what suing will do. When people sue, they do it for money and relief of the accident.(If you get what I'm saying.) It was the riders choice to jump it therefore she should take all responsiblity(and a little bit from GM) for what she does! I'm not sure about the suspension but I know that's not up to us!

[Pat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wufpack3:
I agree with everyone here that George Morris needs to be suspended, Sued and Worse, But everyone is also bashing the owner. If you all didn't notice it said NOVICE on there. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? who said this rider was a novice? The rider was showing in Amateur Owner. Hardly a novice division. The courses and jumps in A/O are huge and technical, the most any ammy will see with out stepping out side of the amateur world.

Yes, I think she bears some guilt having attempted an atleast questionable fence. But she should never have been placed in the position in the first place!

[brilyntrip]

in response to wulfpac,woa back up...any amateur /owner jumper rider showing/lessoning with GM IS NOT A NOVICE rider by any stretch of the word!!!!!!DO NOT CONFUSE AMATEUR WITH NOVICE they are not the same.Jumping metal pipes is apparently very common at home.I do not do it but... so many do with out any accidents.I have investigated this quite extensively and I am surprised but...it seems that the metal pipe thing is common.So common that no one not one person out of like 30or 40 friends and most rode as children many are pros now thought the metal pipe was unsafe,nor could they relate any incidents where ANY injuries had ever occured.Keeping this in mind how many horses have flipped and been hurt jumping a combination or... a cross countyr obstacle???My point is as before it is a horrible accident particularly because it happened at a location adjacent to show grounds,GM was involved,a waiting target(so to speak)but if one were to take the ratio of successful jumps involving a metal pipe against the number of unsuccessdful jumps involving a metal pipe.It would apparently be low.like 2000 to 5.Now I have never used a metalpipe and it would neer occur to me to do so but apparently others are doing it with success(ie no accidents) so in all hnesty I can not say the jump is so outlandish.It seems that it is as I have said before a tragic accident,that Mr Morris could not have imagined.

[SGray]

Got out my Steinkraus book last night to look up his reference to poling - his discussion of the practice went on for several pages. Interestingly, in the midst of the discussion he cited the current AHSA rules which were for 1969! So folks, whether or not you were have used the technique or were even aware of the technique, it has been an accepted practice for well over thirty years.
(By the way, Steinkraus said in later paragraphs that he prefers tackrails to metal poles........).

[Jaysee]

"THE TURN OF THE CENTURY...
WITH GEORGE H. MORRIS

Fads Come And Go And Nature Takes Care Of What’s Unnatural
It’s hard for me to look into the future—I have enough to cope with living in the present one day at a time!


"What goes up, must come down." "Things go full circle." "What goes around, comes around." I’ve usually found all of these "truisms" fairly accurate. Extremes never work, fads come and go and nature takes care of what’s unnatural. This is where we are in the horse business as the millennium comes to a close."


Found this to be quite amusing.....

[Allyn M]

WOW ! Wufpack3 you are aptly named . I cannot understand the hate for someone I find to be so knowledgeable and helpful.I'm remembering this kind of pack mentality before.Many years ago I whipped in to a pack of cross-bred hounds. We brought in an older American hound known for his scenting ability.He was great! All the hounds honored him and followed him. For a year everything went well.Then this lead hound began to suffer in the back legs and the hounds started to attack him in the kennel.We could no longer put him in the trailer with them to travel so he rode in the pick-up with the staff.Yep --- they finally killed him and they had followed him for so long that they could not find another leader they could believe. We finally brought in English hounds.Does anyone see a simile here ??

[Portia]

Carrie is absolutely right about the reasons why any good lawyer will immediately advise a client in a situation involving potential liability not to make any public comment until the incident has been analyzed and good legal advice obtained. It is foolish to do otherwise, regardless of whether one is "guilty" or "innocent" (which are inappropriate terms to use in a matter involving at most civil and not criminal liability).

I'm not commenting on Mr. Morris's situation in particular, but as a lawyer, the first thing I would advise any client in a similar situation to do is to not make any public comment until the incident has been investigated and analyzed from a legal perspective.

I understand that, unless you practice litigation on a regular basis, as I do, it is difficult to understand all the reasons why no comment is made even though teh public wants an explanation and the parties involved may desperately want to explain themselves (as they usually do). But please, don't condemn anyone simply because they're following their lawyer's directions. There are very good reasons for that advice, as anyone who faces a potential claim will find out.

[charlie66]

hi new to the list here sorry to say i found this list due to this incident with GM i dont know what to think it is a sad story and glad i wasnt there to see it. i have been dealing with show horses 3 yrs and will show my first time in few days, i am a novice showing hunter pleasure on a arabian stallion this should be interesting lol. i hope we get some more info soon i will be watching. also i hope to getinto jumping and dressage glad to find a list like this hope to learn alot. sorry i had to learn about metal poles this way would rather i die than a horse i was riding would never push a horse to do something i wasnt sure of or the horse either i dont have that kind of expiriance and dont feel it is my place to do so.
thanks for letting me join in with you
charlie

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IlonaE:
Erin - really had to chuckle at your response to my inquiry on why the Chronicle and/or PH haven't reported more information. You said the Chronicle isn't CNN - well then why have a website which is being monitored constantly and then hide behind the "we only publish weekly" excuse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The management at the Chronicle decided when we started the website that it would be a complement to the magazine rather than a competitor. All of the content is posted the same day that the printed issue comes out. In other words, the people who actually pay for the magazine aren't getting stiffed because the information was available a week earlier on the web.

However, in certain cases, I will summarize our upcoming news items on this board because I feel that it's important enough to get the details out as soon as possible. I think we did this in the case of the EIA outbreak in Pennsylvania this past fall, with the McLain Ward incident in Aachen, and a few others.

I promise, as soon as we get any news, I will pass it along. But we are a weekly magazine, and realistically speaking, our writers are going to work on a story that's due tomorrow before working on the George story that's not going in the magazine until next week. That's just the way it works. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Ruby G. Weber]

Enough already!!! I have read too much SPECULATION regarding the ACCIDENT in WPB. One should be concerned about the long term ramifications of such negative publicity. I for one would like to see this topic put to rest before someone with absolutely no knowledge of horses, horse shows, eventing, training, etc. gets winds of this. That is a frightening thought. One should, if they love the sport so much, do everything they can to promote and as much as they can to squelch the "dirty laundry".

Unfortunately, because of the circumstances, this ACCIDENT could have long term implications. I think ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

[Erin]

Okay, folks, here's what I'm going to do... I am going to close the thread, but mostly because of logistical reasons. It's reeeeally long, every detail has been hashed out multiple times, everyone has had a chance to vent, and I think it's time to move on. I'd rather see more focused discussions start under different headings. Also, I'd rather not have newbies come in and try to wade through this mess and miss some of the important details.

Let me emphasize that discussion of this topic is more than welcome to continue. CarrieK hit the nail on the head... I do have faith that you all can continue this discussion in a thoughtful manner, and I am very pleased to see that that's been more or less the case over the last 36 hours. I think it'll be easier to continue in that manner if we leave some of the (ahem) more volatile opinions here behind and start other threads. I've also had a number of emails requesting that this thread be closed, so I'm trying to do what's best for everyone.

Now, I am still very serious about keeping the name-calling and inflammatory comments off the board. I will delete posts that I feel are inappropriate and will ask the authors to restate their opinions in a less volatile manner. Remember, the rules are to be nice and be respectful.

So please feel free to start other subjects dealing with the specifics of the issue, and we'll go from there. Any questions or comments, email me at erin@chronofhorse.com.