War??

[Lori]

OK, so now we are going to war.....exactly what Bin Laden wants.
I hope I heard this wrong on the radio....I have no TV. Anyone out there up on what is happening? Lori

"Come hup you hugly beast!" Surtees

[Lori]

OK, so now we are going to war.....exactly what Bin Laden wants.
I hope I heard this wrong on the radio....I have no TV. Anyone out there up on what is happening? Lori

"Come hup you hugly beast!" Surtees

[Natalie]

It does look as though we are going to war. I doubt anybody with sense is thrilled about this, but are you really so sure that Bin Laden wanted to go to war? I wouldn't be surprised if he's beggining to think he bit off more than he can chew. Despite being a multi-millionare, he has neither the funds or military force to win a war against the U.S, much less all of NATO and possibly other UN members. What reason does he have to want to fight a losing battle?

"Throw your heart over the fence and your horse will follow."

[hobson]

Bin Laden, if he is the leader of the group responsible, has probably anticipated military reprisals as part of a very sophisticated strategy.

His associates in the Taleban, as another thread has asserted, are not "ignorant psychotics." These guys are relatively young and often western-educated. They are VERY politically savvy. Afghani society, like many Islamic nations, has really been raked over the coals by rapid and disorienting cultural and economic modernization. Taleban leaders figured out very quickly (with some handy support and lots of money from the US and other western nations) how to translate the Afghani people's understandable resentment against the west into political fanaticism.

The attack must surely have been many years in the making, and would have had enormous amounts of funding. I would be very surprised if the group leaders did not make some thorough plans for dispersing into hiding following the attack. They probably also have taken into account the likelihood of military reprisals, and have worked out how to use that to their advantage. Indiscriminate flattening of Afghani cities and peasant villages should very effectively turn most of the nation heartily against the US, and garner further support for the Taleban regime. It should also act as highly effective recruiting tool for Bin Laden, if he is the one responsible.

Am I saying we should not react? Well, no. We probably have very good military intelligence on the suspected groups, along with a pretty good handle on their political weaknesses, and a reasonable understanding of how they fit into the culture. I recently met the US army colonel who is in charge of NATO military intelligence in Kosovo, and I was extremely impressed with the Kosovo forces' depth of understanding of the political situation there. The trouble is, this kind of understanding does not generally trickle up to the people who make the decisions about military actions and political decisions (the catastrophe in Rwanda comes to mind - area specialists displayed an uncannily good analysis of the root of that problem, but it was ignored by UN strategists). It's probable that a large-scale strike will play right into the terrorists hands. We already have a tool for dealing with them - the international rule of law - the same tool that was used to hunt down and bring to trial the perpetrators in the Pan Am flight bombing that resulted in the crash over Lockerbie.

Some of you will now proceed to angrily suggest that I move to another country, so knock yourselves out. I can't see how retaliatory murder of Afghanis will do anything other than strengthen Bin Laden's and the Taleban's prestige, and result in further loss of American lives. We have the resources to hunt down the people actually responsible - why not use them, and spare millions of innocent people the violence of war?

[Weatherford]

The more I think about it, the more I think I agree with hobson.

I feel we are in a no-win situation. I would love to "flatten" Afghanistan, but I am not sure that will do anything more than increase the hatred that is being fueled against us. (Having listened to a lot of reports from Afghanistan, I know the rhetoric is flaming!) I think attacking them would be playing directly into Bin Laden and the Taliban's hands.

And, while nuking them MIGHT stop some future threats, how do you stop a fanatic? On the other hand, we did stop the Japanese - whose forces were "Samuri" - where suicide in the name of the cause is an honor.

I think Bin Laden is a psycho - and a very very smart one. I think he has used fanaticism as an excuse to start WW3.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[vineyridge]

The shooting of the heir to the Austrian throne in Sarajevo by a Serbian Nationalist. Over time, somehow, the whole world got sucked in.

Bush has got his Tonkin Gulf resolution, which started the huge escalation of American forces in Vietnam.

Those who allow their emotions to control their intellect are doomed to repeat history. I agree with Hobson.

Yesterday, I posted the lyrics to Bob Dylan's song, With God on Our Side. Nobody looked at the post. I'm going to repost them here. Think about them, think about the words of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, and think about the beliefs of the terrorists that God is on THEIR side. War can never be holy.

"With God On Our Side"

Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And the land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

The Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns on their hands
And God on their side.

The First World War, boys
It came and it went
The reason for fighting
I never did get
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And then we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war comes
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war."

Copyright Bob Dylan.

[Natalie]

This is all true. I'm wondering though....what king of war ARE we fighting? A "seek out and capture" war or a "flatten the cities" war? Obviously the first would be the more intelligent one for the U.S. to fight and the more difficult one for the terrorists to resist. And though the thought of WWIII honestly scares the hell out of me, I'm still wondering if it would be possible for NATO's combined forces to lose a war against third world countries.

Just a thought....

"Throw your heart over the fence and your horse will follow."

[Lori]

I am with Hobson. I belive in the "seek out and capture" war as stated by Natalie. We have the brains to do this and our allies will back us up. Flattening will only make the innocent people suffer and cause more hate toward us. I feel we should do it the smart way.... Lori (who is now scared)

"Come hup you hugly beast!" Surtees

[upnover]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lori:
OK, so now we are going to war.....exactly what Bin Laden wants.
I hope I heard this wrong on the radio....I have no TV. Anyone out there up on what is happening? Lori

Who said for sure that is was Bin Laddin for sure? We do not want to go starting battles unless we know for sure who we are fighting and that we have a right to fight them. Bush said "prime suspect", but no one is sure.

[dogchushu]

(Apologies in advance for what may be my longest post ever. I'm rather long-winded on a good day, and this isn't a good day.)

While I can understand and respect the reluctance to engage in military action, and I deeply regret the loss of life that occurs with any such action, I have come to the conclusion that some sort of armed response is necessary. I did not come to this conclusion based on desire for revenge, rather, I could think of no other effective alternative.

I wish arresting and bringing to trial the individuals responsible for planning this particular act would be enough. But that doesn't touch the governments who encouraged, supported, and promoted terrorist activities. Remove Bin Laden (if he is, in fact, the individual in charge of this act), and others will step in to take his place. Yes, I understand that retaliation will only anger other radical elements, but I, unfortunately, believe that removing the infrastructure that allowed these terrorist organizations to thrive is the only way to eliminate their ability to inflict the kind of damage we've seen recently. And my belief that we must remove the infrastructure that fostered this kind of terrorism, is what led me to my conclusion.

Also, how do get Bin Laden and the others and bring them to trial? Aghganistan has stated that if we provide them with proof Bin Laden is responsible for these activities then they will try him in in Aghganistan in Islamic court. I don't believe, given their rhetoric, that we could ever prove his guilt to their satisfaction, nor to I believe they would aggressively pursue prosecution of him. I have heard that we should "go in there and get him" but how do you do that effectively? I remember many failed rescue operations: the attempt to rescue the US embassy hostages in Iran in the late 70's jumps to mind. And we knew where they were and they wanted us to get to them. Bin Laden obviously does not.

I have seen many on news reports and other BBs who argue that we should sit down at the negotiating table and try to resolve our differences and that is the only way to change the "hearts and minds" of those that hate us. I wish this would be effective. But I have 3 major problems with that solution:

Firstly, what kind of message does that send? If you have grievances with the U.S., strike out at us, and that will bring us to the negotiating table?

Secondly, I don't know realistically what we could offer to, in fact, change the "hearts and minds" of these extremists. I've tried, over the past few days, to research what it is Bin Laden wants. From what I could gather, he hates the US because he views our country as the cause of the "westernization" of the world. Basicially, he believes our values, culture, and the increasing globalization of the economy are "infecting" his people and bringing to an end his way of life. This was brought to a head when the US stationed troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War which he viewed as corrupting the sacred Arabian lands. How do you negotiate that?

Thirdly, in this case I believe that resembles "appeasement" since when negotiating evil individuals who do not respect human life you can only give, you cannot resolve. And appeasement only serves to increase demands. I think of Neville Chamberlain (sp?) and Adolph Hitler and the short, erroneous belief that appeasement had brought "peace in our time."

Yes, I deeply regret and will mourn any pain inflicted on innocent people by military action.
I also fear losses on our own side. I say this coming from a military family and realizing that I stand to lose some of those I love most. But in today's world, we have a volunteer military and those I've talked to want to go.

I wish I could come up with a perfect solution, but it's beyond my feeble brain. I pray that our leaders can come up with something. I do not believe that anyone is advocating full scale erradication of a people or a country. From what I've heard, they've talked about a "21st century war" which would involve more than just armed conflict: it would involve diplomatic, economic and military action.

Finally, please understand that I posted this overly-long missive (gosh, I so wish I had the eloquence and clear, concise writing of some of our other posters) not because I don't respect others' views (I do) or because I thought I could convince anyone that "I'm right." Rather, I wanted to explain my conclusions, so that perhaps you could understand, if not agree with, a different viewpoint.

[Kcorseinop]

It already is war...

[LittleWitch]

Here is a column I got from another mailing list. I don't agree with everything in it but it does make some good points.

---------------------

Open the Washington Post to it's editorial pages, and war talk dominates.

Henry Kissinger: Destroy the Network.

Robert Kagan: We Must Fight This War.

Charles Krauthammer: To War, Not to Court.

William S. Cohen: American Holy War.

There is no column by Colman McCarthy talking peace.

From 1969 to 1997, McCarthy wrote a column for the Washington Post. He was let go because the column, he was told, wasn't making enough money for the company. "The market has spoken," was the way Robert Kaiser, the managing editor at the Post, put it at the time.

McCarthy is a pacifist. "I'm opposed to any kind of violence -- economic, political, military, domestic."

But McCarthy is not surprised by the war talk coming from the Post. He has just completed an analysis of 430 opinion pieces that ran in the Washington Post in June, July and August 2001.

Of the 430 opinion pieces, 420 were written by right-wingers or centrists. Only ten were written by columnists one might consider left.

Nor is he surprised by the initial response of the American people to Tuesday's horrific attacks on innocent civilians. According to a Washington Post/ABC News poll, nine of ten people supported taking military action against the groups or nations responsible for the attacks "even if it led to war."

"In the flush of emotions, that is the common reaction," McCarthy says.

"But is it a rational and sane reaction?"

So, how should we respond?

"We forgive you. Please forgive us."

Forgive us for what?

"Please forgive us for being the most violent government on earth," McCarthy says. "Martin Luther King said this on April 4, 1967 at Riverside Church in New York. He said 'my government is the world's leading purveyor of violence.'"

What should Bush do?

"He should say that the United States will no longer be the world's largest seller of weapons, that we will begin to decrease our extravagantly wasteful military budget, which runs now at about $9,000 a second."

What will Bush do?

"Within the week, we will be bombing somebody somewhere," McCarthy says. "This is what his father did, this is what Clinton did."

"In the past 20 years, we have bombed Libya, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iraq, and Yugoslavia. There are two things about those countries -- all are poor countries, and the majority are people of dark colored skin."

Are you saying that we should just turn the other cheek?

"No, that's passivity," McCarthy says. "Pacifism is not passivity. Pacifism is direct action, direct resistance, refusing to cooperate with violence. That takes a lot of bravery. It takes much more courage than to use a gun or drop a bomb."

Since leaving the Post, McCarthy has dedicated his life to teaching peace. He has created the Center for Teaching Peace, which he runs out of his home in Northwest Washington. He teaches peace and non-violence at six area universities and at a number of public secondary and high schools.

But he's up against a system that systematically teaches violence -- from that all pervasive teacher of children -- television -- to the President of the United States.

"In 1999, the day after the Columbine shootings, Bill Clinton went to a high school in Alexandria, Virginia and gave a speech to the school's Peer Mediation Club," McCarthy says. "Clinton said 'we must teach our children to express their anger and resolve their conflicts with words no weapons.'"

"It was a great speech, but he went back that same night and ordered up the most intense bombing of Belgrade since that war began four weeks before."

Message to children: kid's violence is bad, but America's violence is good.

McCarthy says we should teach our children forgiveness, not to demonize people who have a grievance.

"When you hit your child, or beat up the person you are living with, you are saying -- 'I want you to change the way you think or behave and I'm going to use physical force to make you change your way or your mind,'" he says.

"In fact, violence is rarely effective. If violence was effective, we would have had a peaceful planet eons ago."

How to break the cycle of violence?

"The same way you break the cycle of ignorance -- educate people," McCarthy responds.

"Kids walk in the school with no idea that two plus two equals four. They are ignorant. We repeat over and over -- Billy, two plus two equals four. And Billy leaves school knowing two plus two equals four. But he doesn't leave school knowing that an eye for an eye means we all go blind."

"We have about 50 million students in this country," McCarthy says. "Nearly all of those are going to graduate absolutely unaware of the philosophy of Gandhi, King, Dorothy Day, Howard Zinn, or A.J. Muste."

When he speaks before college audiences, McCarthy holds up a $100 dollar bill and says "I'll give this to anybody in the audience who can identify these next six people -- Who was Robert E. Lee, Ulysses S. Grant, and Paul Revere? All hands go up on all three."

"Then I ask -- Who was Jeanette Rankin (first women member of Congress, voted against World War I and World War II, said 'you can no more win a war than win an earthquake,' Dorothy Day (co-founder of the Catholic Worker movement), Ginetta Sagan (founder of Amnesty USA)."

"The last three are women peacemakers. The first three are all male peacebreakers. The kids know the militarists. They don't know the peacemakers."

He hasn't lost his $100 bill yet to a student.

Of the 3,100 colleges and universities in the country, only about 70 have degree programs in peace studies and most are underfunded.

Instead of bombing, we should start teaching peace.

"We are graduating students as peace illiterates who have only heard of the side of violence," McCarthy laments. "If we don't teach our children peace, somebody else will teach them violence."

[Magnolia]

Little Witch-
Very NICE!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Message to children: kid's violence is bad, but America's violence is good. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
just change to (heard in America)
Message to children: Terrorist violence is bad, but America's violence is good.

In the Middle East
Message to children: America's violence is bad, but the Jihad's (or any other movement) violence is good.

How about for once

Message to children: ALL violence is bad, especially in this day and age, when we should know better. Violence is especially bad when it comes about because we stick our nose in places it doesn't belong (usually because of GREED (oil...). We should use all the money violence costs to build things up, not tear things down.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Snowbird]

Learn from history please, have you read the history of the world? Stop repeating the rhetoric of the pacifists. It does work..it has never worked and it will never work.

A fist gets back a fist or it's considered a "mark" common term for someone easily snookered. Chamberlain thought he had made a good deal with Hitler, Roosevelt thought he made a good deal with Stalin. We bargained with Hitler until he owned Europe and then when he changed the terms of the bargain we were surprised.

This is history repeating because we didn't learn our lessons. You cannot bribe or pacify a tyrant. Better, to take them on now before they own half the world. Do you want to wait and then find out we all must belong to the sect of bin Ladon? Just as Hitler wanted nothing but aryans he wants only members of his religious persuasion.

You cannot bargain with a terrorist, or a bully. Surely, your mothers taught you that in school when a bully wanted your lunch giving him your lunch just upped the anti. Where would you all be if we hadn't fought the War against Hitler? We knew it was death or slavery and you youngsters may face the same decisions.

Do you think in the world of bin Ladon you will have your computers, your horses and your freedom to waste your energy?

[Magnolia]

I have read my history, and we continue to make the same mistakes over and over...
We continue to do half baked jobs - lobbing a few missles at Hussein, not quite winning, not quite losing (all the while insuring his people misery), we did much the same in Vietnam, now we prepare to do the same in Afghanistan.
I have all respect for our military ~ but, if we want to win these things, we risk killing so many fine men and women that we can't stomach it, and we stop short of ousting these freaks. So we leave, leaving wounded people to suffer under even worse oppression. Vietnam has slowly recovered (thankfully).
It also bothers me greatly that we pick and choose our oppressors to go after. What about people like PolPot? or China? We ignore them ~ China is too important economically, and Cambodia wasn't important enough...
We do need to punish the people responsible for the bombing. I agree. The people responsible need to be dealt with... but, can we do it without hurting a bunch of civilians and americans - probably!
Unfortunatley, we can not control the rising of the maniacs of our world. There will always be another Bin laden, Milosevic, PolPot and Hitler. Many people in this world would include some of our leaders in that sentence.
As we continue to grow into a world with starker and starker social inequality, we will continue to breed some people with terrifying agendas. We need to be honest about what American actions sometimes result in. Yup, maybe we can go be mighty america and rip Afghanistan to shreds, and Sudan, and wherever else these terrorists hide (and I would not doubt that some are AMERICANS). I can almost guarantee that we will have another menace to deal with the next day, be it Iraq, North Korea, Libya or some place we helped 10 years ago.
Maybe I'm ignorant to have hoped that my generation wouldn't see a "real" war, one like WWII or Vietnam. Sometimes I feel like we sit in our glass house throwing stones. We've done our equivalent of the horrible tragedies in New York many times to many people. Maybe I have a bad feeling that we may just be getting our due soon, and it scares the snot out of me. No mistake, whatever happens, I support, respect, and pray for our brave troops. I hope, wish, and pray that not one needs to die for this.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[nutmeg]

FDR didn't have to worry about nuclear missiles! Don't forget how many nukes went missing when the Soviet Union fell apart... now who would have the money to buy those as they were looted from the Soviet army? Why would the jihad fire such a vicious opening shot unless they had an even more glorious finale planned? Now as never before we have to be clear eyed and thinking ten steps ahead. They are a tiny fractious splinter group but we have to find out what kind of muskets they're carrying BEFORE we accept their invitation to fight.

[SLW]

The enemy in this war is not camped out in one nation or easy to spot invading boarder nations. They look like "America", the melting pot. The cells are spread about and many are in our own country. Our intelligence system didn't prevent this from happening last Tuesday, will they be able to stop it from happening again? America may have to respond using what works best for them- tanks, soliders and missles. If that "offends" anyone start learning how to speak Arabic languages.

Furthermore, I have lost what little respesct I had for reporters. They ask "why didn't the President return to Washington SOONER last Tuesday?". Our nations capitol was BOMBED, duh. Heavens, I'm just a stupid "Common person" and I know of half a dozen places across American where "officials" are scattered in case of an attack. Imagine where the "not for the common persons knowledge" places might be for the officials?


Long Live the USA.
SLW

[Snowbird]

FDR did have the bomb remember it was a secret from Truman but not FDR. And, yes! we used it to end the war and save thousands of lives that could have been lost. And we tried appeasing Hitler, every country appeased him before he took it over. And, the Jews couldn't believe it could happen until they were in the camps to be exterminated.

China has not had the audacity to come into our home and kill us! Cambodia and all those other issues never came home to us. It was us trying to be good guys! YES! we didn't have the will to win in Korea or Viet Nam, it wasn't our fight. Sure we quit and ran because it was too painful to have happen after we jumped in, and yes we found a tactful retreat, but we did win World War II because not one person in this country, young,old,disabled and infirmed didn't know we had to win or die. That like this was our battle to win.

Well how long do you intend to make excuses for an evil bully who would destroy his own people? Have you see what he plans for us, do you want to have your children live under the heel of the monster? Is it better maybe not to have children and buy peace at any cost?

Do you seriously believe that there is ever a way to make peace with a bully? A bully takes that for weakness and enjoys his destruction of you even more.

My Lord! Children this is your life I have lived mine, do you really think that you can appease someone who seeks your destruction and humiliation?

This is America the Land of free men, generations
have died to give you what you have and I am shocked that you don't feel the need to do the same for the next genration or do we end here?

Our Flag and our country has been the greatest dream in the world and has offered the best life in the history of humanity and you don't think it should be defended. You whimper about post stress syndrome from watching television "poor babies" how difficult for you!! Thank God! they didn't get the Statue of Liberty.

The people who died in New York were from all over the world not just New Yorkers, they lost their lives and the lives of all their unborn children because some stupid millionaire wanted to teach us a lesson. What lesson is he teaching?

I am ashamed of this generation we have spawned. Who do you think should protect your precious life style? You sympathize with the oppressed of the world and blame us for not being equally oppresed. Well then give yours away to support the poor of the world live with them and teach them, if you want and I will applaude you, but don't give away mine for me, I will make my own choices.

If America is gone, if we are as poor and abused as the citizens of Afghanistan who then will give your poor and oppressed a chance for a better life. Do you think that Osamo bi Laden gives a twit if you are homeless and hungry? Do you think he cares that his people are poor and homeless? He could spend those millions he inherited feeding his people and earn real martyerdom instead of paying people to destroy the symbols of our successful democracy.

I pray that we can find a way to get into those caves and free all those oppressed people from the evil monsters who take the oil money and let their people starve. bin Laden is just a spoiled brat from a rich family who wants us all to live his way or not at all. There is nothing about him that justifies sympathy or excuses. He doesn't even care about his own people, just himself. All like him need to be put in the desert without food and water to live off the earth. penniless and hopeless so they can learn what it feels like.

This is a magnificent country of which you should be proud. We carved this country out of rocks with no tools, bare hands and strong backs and we welcome the oppressed from the world to share with us. Are you in favor of open immigration? They just might take your job!

Let our Flag be the light of the world for how good life can be if you're free. Don't you condemn us for being work-o-holics and zealots that made the greatest government that has been known in history.

No one who founded this wonderful world that you live in had any entitlements. During the Depression working people were grateful to have the chance to earn $8.00 a week in salary. College graduates cleaned the streets and collected the garbage and were grateful for the opportunity. These are the same people who went to war and laid down their lives so you could have your pleasant life.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 17, 2001 at 12:02 AM.]

[starlady]

This has been SUCH a lousy week, and then someone
had to mention Colman McCarthy.........

I quit reading Colman McCarthy years ago, after he
defended himself against accusations that he was
anti-Jewish by saying that he loved and admired
the Jews who were killed by the Nazis, but thought
it just awful to see modern-day Jews carrying
guns (meaning Israel), and his attacks were meant
to persuade us to return to the high moral level of our ancestors, i.e. the 6 million.

At which I decided that he is not a pacifist, a peace activist, a leftist, or anything else on
the political spectrum, but is either an anti-Semite, clinically insane, or both. So when you
read his current spoutings, consider the source.

--s.

[Louise]

I'm glad that we have different points of view so freely expressed here. We are just entering a very difficult period in our history, and if there wasn't some fear and confusion, I, quite frankly, would be very worried.

This fear and confusion has existed before and during the early stages of every conflict we have entered. Don't forget that there were pacifists in our country before we entered World War II, Lindburg among them, and that many of then ended up doing their duty in non-violent ways, as medics and ambulance drivers, they didn't just "change their minds."

Do you think that anyone WANTS to go to war? Do you think that the young men who went off to fight in the Revolution (where, by the way, only one third of the population supported the "rebellion"), the Civil War, or any of the conflicts that we have had to take part in weren't afraid and confused?

Don't be so quick to castigate those who express doubt that that all out war is necessary. I think it is in this case, but, I am older and have seen too many instances where the bullies will not be subdued until they are slapped down and made powerless. And, I will not be one of the ones on the front line.

I'm one of the Vietnam generation. I marched in a few picket lines, and believed strongly that we were involved in an unjust war. I knew members of my high school class who did not comehome, or who came home wounded in body and spirit, but who went because they felt it was their duty. I remember the confusion and anger we felt, and I am not about to condemn this generation for feeling the same thing.

We remember with pride the deeds that Americans have done in the past, and I have every faith that this generation who will be on the front lines in this battle, a battle unlike any we have ever fought, will make us proud as well.

For the average American, this will be a battle of the mind and spirit, more than of the body. We will stand toe to toe and shout our opposing views to the world. But, we have proved again this past week that when the time comes, toe to toe changes to shoulder to shoulder. I have no doubt we will continue to do so, in whatever way our conscience allows.

[nutmeg]

Good Lord, Louise, that was positively Churchillian! Wow!

[AHC]

Unfortunately, I believe that whatever we do to retaliate, it will be impossible to stop terrorism. However, there are things we still must try to do, including, in my opinion, limited military strikes directed at known terrorists.

I heard Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neal this morning in a tv interview and he said something that made a lot of sense to me. He said that one of the ways to "win" the war against terrorism was to do our best to cut of the financial means that fanatics like Bin Laden use to carry out their terrorist missions. He talked about working with finance ministers and banks in countries all over the world to do this. Somehow the image of an economic war is easier for me to stomach, even though it too will be difficult to win.

[Jumphigh83]

Well put Snowbird...we are on the same page on this issue for sure!

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Magnolia]

Just a thought-
If Bin Laden bankrolls this. Where is his money kept? In an Afghani bank? Saudi? In gold? or, is it in a good old swiss bank account? Can we not seize this man's assets? Can we not do a paper chase to find where the $$ to train these terrorists came from, and shut 'em off at the bank? Shut off Afghanistan too? They need money to do this, not a leader. Just asking?

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Weatherford]

The money is all over the world, and has been collected by "charities" that are actually no more than terrorist fronts. Several had been unearthed here in Ireland a couple of years ago, and there are still more. Worse yet, two known terrorists with ties to Bin Laden also have Irish passports. When the FBI offered to help the Irish gardai capture them, they were turned down by the gov't. Methinks that was a major mistake on the Irish part. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Double check ANY organization to whom you donate money! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[nutmeg]

Hard to believe, but my Dutch newspaper said that someone was short-selling the German company that insures the WTC on the Hamburg stock exchange just days before the bombing.. and they've found ties to Bin Laden. I presume they're in time to choke off any profits he thinks he's made.

[AWIP]

how is this for a test of whether the scale of response is reasonable or not:

Ask yourself, to what limits would the US government be justified in acting IF the terrorists (a limited party of individuals not ordered by any recognized governent) involved were domestic? Missiles, bombing, etc? Are we willing to wipe out whole US cities to eliminate these individuals?

then

Ask yourself if what makes a greater response justified if the terrorists (same definition) involved are NOT domestic?

Thoughts anyone?

[Charis]

Think on this folks:

The German government is investigating that Bin Laden ON MONDAY THE DAY BEFORE THE CARNAGESOLD HIS STOCK "SHORT" at the German stock market
Would some smart person explain to the others what is meant by selling short??

In other words:
He not only planned it BUT MADE MONEY ON IT!!!! TRUE PURE EVIL /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Louise]

We don't know what our government plans, but there would be one big difference there. This government would not be purposely harboring terrorists.

I can't say it would never be done, though it would, on that scale, be extremely doubtful. It has already been done on a much smaller scale. Wasn't it at Columbine that a teacher was left to bleed to death because to attempt to rescue him might have caused harm to an untold number of children?

Let me ask this. If an Armed Forces plane had been in a position to shoot down one of those jet liners, filled with innocent people, before it came into position to do what was done, would you have wanted the plane NOT to have shot down the jetliner, if that was the last resort?

If terrorists let loose biological weapons and we are forced to quarantene and totally isolate cities because it is the only way to prevent the spread of whatever disease is loosed, should we not do it?

There is a phrase that governments use, sometimes to justify unspeakable things, but, more often because it is the only way that a situation can be handled. That phrase is "For the Greater Good." It's not kind, but, sometimes it is necessary.

[Remi and me]

I am no history expert nor am I politically savy -
all's I know is that this is a very bad time to be
a mother with a son in the military. Matt is only 21 years old and he joined the Army because he could not deal with being a $ poor kid at a $ rich college. The Army made him a lot of promises
and sing in bonuses --- Anyway, he actually likes the work he does and I am proud of the way he has matured but he will be part of any ground forces
that go to "seek" Bin Ladens kind.
I'm afraid that no matter what the US does now, there will be many more causualities to come - both in armed services and innocents. I am personally too stuuned, sad and worried to even sort my thoughts out now about what the US reaction should be.
Godspeed to all of us.

[AHC]

Nutmeg, Charis, I heard the same report and was totally disgusted!!!!!!!!

[vineyridge]

Today nine Indian police personnel were killed in a terrorist attack in Kashmir. Automatic weapons and grenades were used.

Does India retaliate? Both countries have nukes. Who do we support? Kashmiri terrorists have been training in Pakistan and are probably financed by sympathizers with the Islamic militants.

Pakistan has a notoriously unstable government. What if the military or the populace doesn't agree that Pakistan should help the US. Civil War or a coup comes to Pakistan. What do we do?

Sounds a lot like Vietnam, doesn't it? Or Afghanistan to the Russians.

The world has had terrorists/anarchists/Bolsheviks for as long as people have held convictions they are willing to die for. In my time, in the US, buildings were bombed by Americans protesting Amerika and Vietnam. Think Madison, Wisconsin. American military power was turned on Americans--think Kent State and Jackson State.

In the 1920's, the US bent civil liberties to get at the Communists, who were espousing world terrorism--think the Palmer raids.

Sacco and Vanzetti were executed for terrorism. The Rosenbergs were executed in the darkest days of the red scare.

Habeas Corpus was suspended by Lincoln in the Civil War because enemies were "among us".

I mourn for the dead. I mourn for our freedoms. I grieve for the world.

[Snowbird]

There are 5300 of her children that have been murdered in her home.

Over the centuries we have tried sympathy and appeasement, Chamberlain came back to Britain promising peace. We have been benefactors to the third world countries, we have helped them, we helped rebuild Europe and make it whole.

But when a killer comes into your house and uses your own as a weapon, that is not a rational logical place to be. There was a report that the women and others on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania had been tied to their seats and had their throats cut with those little plastic knives so they would not be able to defend themselves. It wasn't enough for them to die in the crash.

I am a mother and I feel like I could be the mother to any of those 5300 missing dead babies.
And the cause? To humiliate and weaken us so that we lose face and are stripped of our humanity,they can kill all of us because we do not support the laws of "THEIR" kind of Islam. An Islam where women have no rights and may not work even to feed their starving children. What did they do? they outlawed "begging" so that these women trying to care for their children would not be seen.

The Koran does not teach such things. Islam is a good religion from the same root as Abraham.

Adolph Hitler was a deviant personality too. He believed that God told him he only loved Aryans, then he decided he was God. If we had stopped him before he owned Europe then perhaps so many would not have died trying. This is a deviant anti-social personality with a charismatic way to hire people who have nothing and will die to make sure their families have food and clothes. If he loved Islam he would be a teacher and a philanthropist with the money he inherited and see them turn the desert green and beat us by proving his world was better than ours.

Defending your home which has been invaded and where your guest has murdered your children, a mother deserves to defend her children.

What price is too high to pay to rid the world of terrorists who wish nothing more than your death. What father or brother would not die to save his mother and his sisters from degradation. What mother would not cheerfully give her life to save her babies?

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 17, 2001 at 10:59 PM.]

[SLW]

Snowbird, I always enjoy your thoughtful post and the perspective you share with us.

I spoke with a military friend today and we should not forget, that while we cringe and focus on the idea of *war*, these men and women have trained to do this and pledged to do this job. If we each had dinner with, say a group of F-15 pilots, we would have a fresh perspective on the attack upon America. We have the best and brightest in our military. I have confidence in each and every one of them and they are all in my prayers.

SLW

[This message was edited by SLW on Sep. 17, 2001 at 11:12 PM.]

[jparkes]

Snowbird...Thank You!
Continue to share your thoughts, I appreciate them very much!

[Heidi]

I'd hazard a guess that if you were to arm Americans with guns today, in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, many, if not most, wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone dead.

That people are angry, upset, unsettled, and shaken to the core isn't surprising. The 'novelty' here is the nature of the attack and the truly evil people who perpetrated it.

Snowbird, while I would agree with some of your concerns, I do find your assumption that the 'current' generation lacks the moral and social imperative and strength of character to 'do what's right' rather offensive. I'd also conjecture, much as you have, that perhaps we have amassed some knowledge from the mistakes of history and will approach the terrorists, not with overwhelming military might by obliterating an entire nation or continent but, with covert operations designed to kill the perpetrators and other threatening cells while sparing the lives of innocent Afghanis.

I'd also point out that during the past summer of suicide bombings and terrorist attacks in the Middle East, George Bush was urging Ariel Sharon to exercise restraint in retaliation. I'd like to believe that he'll heed his own advice.

[Louise]

On all points.

[Ann]

It's clear that we're going to dramatically ramp up our military and security measures in light of the events of last week, and I have no argument with that.

What does really bother me, however, is that we weren't even enforcing some very basic security measures that should have weeded out these terrorists long ago.

How is it that known terrorists were able to travel in and out of the country under their own names---and at least one of them on an expired visa, no less---and get drivers licenses so they could drive rental cars all over the eastern seaboard? This was not just a flukish one-time security lapse---it was going on for up to two years on a regular basis.

I think it's appropriate to mobilize for war, but it seems to me we could go a long way towards protecting ourselves simply by sealing up gaping holes in what would appear to be very basic and rudementary security processes.

[Snowbird]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'd also conjecture, much as you have, that perhaps we have amassed some knowledge from the mistakes of history and will approach the terrorists, not with overwhelming military might by obliterating an entire nation or continent but, with covert operations designed to kill the perpetrators and other threatening cells while sparing the lives of innocent Afghanis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's not jump to the conclusion that our President is not at least as aware as we all are of the risks.

I have heard or read nothing that implies he intends to bomb Afghaistan off the map except from those embedded in hysteria and fear. I have heard him say this is not a war like any other and that we will not have seats on the 50 yard line watching it unfold. I have heard him ask for Bin Laden to be turned in in which case I am certain there will be a trial. I have not heard him say that this one man is operating independently and that stopping him alone will end the problem. I have heard that they are offereing a $5 million dollar reward for Bin Ladon "Dead or Alive".

FDR put it right on target. "We have nothing to fear but fear itself". Fear can masquerade as caution and cowardice can masquerade as logic or good intentions. When your children are murdered it is time to be more direct.

My impression from I have heard is that there will be covert troops, the best trained and the most experienced from every country in the world that will effect this mission. I say covert, because he said we will not be to watch it happen. Because some of these "terrorists are hiding in sheep's clothing in our midst" we will not be privy to advance knowledge, not total information. This does not disturb me because during World War II the most prolific statement we all understood was "Loose lips..sink ships".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I do find your assumption that the 'current' generation lacks the moral and social imperative and strength of character to 'do what's right' rather offensive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize but the context of my statement was in response to those who in spite of history and our experience appeasing villains who want to take over the world are still preaching the same old song.

The collaberators and appeasers in Europe were all convinced that Adolph Hitler was a reasonable man and therefore should be dealt with in a reasonable way. They believed that he only wanted to kill the Jews and afterall that wasn't a big sacrifice. He really just needed Poland and then if he had Czechoslovakia he would be satisfied. Russia really believed that since they had signed on with Adolph Hitler he would never attack them.

There were many pacifists, good people who could not concieve there was anyone with such an evil purpose and such a disregard for human life. They wanted to collaborate and pacify and find an agreement for peace for themselves.

This is the context of my statement we have been there and done that and it doesn't work with a sociopath because they have different values reasons and causes.

Certainly, it was a poorly explained generalization. My reference to this generation isonly for those whose posts I read that are going down that same old road and because they are looking for the same mistakes again to happen and then will wait too long to fix it AGAIN! I am totally offended because of where I come from and the life I have lived, by people who want to learn the same lessons all over again.

Millions died to give you that right and yet I am offended by those that don't believe it's true yet! I had hoped that the peaceful and complacent life you have all enjoyed because of our victory in World War II would have had more permanence.

So please, let me apologize to those of you in this generation that are not inclusive of that group. I was guilty of too broad a form of addressing you and for that I apologize. Generalizations are never a good thing.

[hobson]

and indeed, Americans have already begun killing their neighbors of Middle Eastern descent. In Philly, I see a sort of gleeful brutality associated with the violent harassment of middle eastern cab drivers and lunch cart vendors. I advise a couple of Egyptian students in my program, and they are frightened to leave their apartments because they know there are A LOT of people out there who wish them dead. We say that these turds (the harassers, I mean) represent only a small, stupid part of our society, but I wonder how many people are out there who are THINKING the same things, but don't have the guts to actually hurl a rock or throw a firebomb.

In the past few days I have perceived a certain excitement on the campus where I work. Among the students there is a lot of buzz about joining the military and there appears to be a great deal of fantasizing about gloriously crossing the Khyber Pass and blowing up everything in sight--the intensity is almost sexual in nature, and I find it disturbing and depressing. Motivated by this sort of blood lust, how are we really superior to our attackers?

[Snowbird]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In the past few days I have perceived a certain excitement on the campus where I work. Among the students there is a lot of buzz about joining the military and there appears to be a great deal of fantasizing about gloriously crossing the Khyber Pass and blowing up everything in sight--the intensity is almost sexual in nature, and I find it disturbing and depressing. Motivated by this sort of blood lust, how are we really superior to our attackers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that truly how you see your fellow students?

On my most depressed day I could not imagine that students in a college could be so uneducated and incapable of a sincere patriotism. If you are right and they enlist I think they will be very disappointed.

Do you really believe all these students are so self-centered and stupid that they do not understand? Or are you just trying to make some abstract point?

[Ann]

Hobson, Those who take out their anger indiscriminately on people of middle-eastern descent are simply playing into the hands of the terrorists.

If a U.S. citizen chooses to unleash his anger on some innocent person who left his homeland to seek a better life in the U.S.---simply because he's wearing a turban---that suits the terrorists just fine. It means we aren't directing our anger at the real threat---and even helps further their causes since those victimized are likely to be those who disagreed with their politics to begin with.

To terrorists, the multi-ethnic diversity of the U.S. provides an excellent means of camouflage for their operations. War is not such a simple matter as it used to be; it isn't entirely clear who our enemies are anymore. I don't think we should be so naive as to think that the capture of Bin Laden will eliminate the threat, although I certainly think it's a step in the right direction.

I don't mean to sound absurdly paranoid, but my point is that this is a time when everyone needs to keep their wits about them, and accept the fact that our enemies will not necessarily be so easy to identify as we might like. This will be a thinking person's battle to win.

It's inevitable under the circumstances that middle easterners are going to be scrutinized very closely, whoever they are and wherever they go. My father was in the military and there were times overseas when we had to deal with the brunt of the hostility of the citizens of a particular country, so I know what it's like. It's not right and it's not fair but it's all part of the reality of an event of the magnitude as what happened last week.

[hobson]

Unfortunately, Snowbird, this is indeed what they are talking about. It is not abstract in the least. (By the way, they are not fellow students - I am a grown-up employee here, and have contact with the students in an advising capacity.) The depth of the trauma is such that students who never even dreamed of military service now cannot WAIT to get into uniform and operate weapons. And I do not exaggerate about their desire to go somewhere and kill someone, anyone. "I just want go over there and blow those ragheads away - I don't care who they are" is but one of the remarks I've heard here.

Self-centered? Definitely. Uneducated? Well, uneducated about global geopolitics, that's for sure.

But I think that you are right in the notion that the Bush administration probably is going to give more coherent thought to how we ought to react. At least, I certainly hope so.

[Ruby G. Weber]

but I finally have alit on the same side of the aisle as Snowbird.

One fact as yet unstated. Bin Laden managed to asassinate the leader of the Taliban opposition in Northern Afganistan one week before the attack on the US. I doubt that was a coincidence.

More food for thought. Had Hitler been stopped sooner, quite possibly there would have been no need for "a Jewish State". Imagine how different that part of the world might be today.

Bin Laden is the reincarnation of Hilter. History does repeat itself.

[Snowbird]

It would be apparent that these young people have been so complacent and secure in their lives that they do not comprehend the real world of life and death.

I hope they all decide to join in some qusi-military group and then are required to learn something about self-discipline and responsibility. Perhaps, it won't hurt them to have to follow orders and be one of many. Obviously, at this point none will be qualified to be in any Special Services unit so I think the world will be safe.

Considering there is a sociological dilemma these days in this country with children killing children, and babies killing their parents, and parents killing their babies. You are seeing the symptoms of a generation that has spent too much time playing computer games where they can kill every day. I suspect they have no concept of the permanence of real death.

On another issue we can deal with where this society has gone wrong. I find it very amusing that my generation did so much much considered wrong by today's standards in raising our children and we apparently are responsible for the generation of environmentalists and peacemakers.

Now that children have been prevented from enjoying all our sins re: cowboys and indians and other war games we see their children. Oh! yes and I don't want to forget spankings, washing the mouth out with soap and other assorted cruelty like a stay at home Mom who knew exactly what was happening all the time. Have things gotten better?

[Snowbird]

Yes, we are all still suffering from the results of letting Hitler alone to get as far as he did.

And, if there had not been the holocaust I doubt there would have been given to the Jews an Israel. The Zionists who returned there were satisfied to buy land from the Palestinians. They all got along pretty well back then.

If we could roll back back time and change just one moment how different the world could be. This is our moment to make a difference for the next generations.

[moose]

Well, this is rather lengthy but a friend sent it to me. It's a report from a journalist concerning jihadist movements in and connection to bin laden globally and in Egypt (where some of the hijackers come from). It was written a year ago, and it is foreboding. If you saw Dan Rather last night, it gave me a concept of what he was trying to say.

Cairo: A torrent of frightening disclosures 11/01/2000 World & I Copyright Washington Times Corporation

Holy Terror as the Vanguard of Globalization

In the 1980s a new generation of Islamists came of age. For them,jihad is not a matter of moral rearmament (as many Muslims wish it to be understood) but of armed struggle, their favorite form of self-purification being "martyrdom," preferably in the form of a suicide commando furthering the cause. They took the twentieth-century development from Islam, the old religion, to Islamism, the new ideology, several steps further. Now the Arab press refers to them not just as mujahideen (holy warriors) but as jihadists.

In Egypt a jihadist insurgency had been simmering ever since Anwar Sadat's assassination in 1981, and since then, the deaths of twelve hundred people can be directly attributed to it. Mushrooming Islamist associations were welded together by Omar Abdel Rahman (the World Trade Center sheik) into one single Gama'a Islamiya (Islamic Community). One important group, Al-Gihad Al-Islami (the Islamic Holy War), stayed outside his fold. Its members reasoned that a handicapped man could only be a "spiritual mentor," not the real leader. And yet, the blind sheik's group became Egypt's most important underground movement. By contrast, Gihad suffered several splits. (The name is the same as jihad, only written the Egyptian way.)

Initially, some Gihad leaders were opposed to killing police officers, calling it counterproductive and un-Islamic. Their priority was to assassinate ministers. By contrast, Gama'a combatants did everything: They tried to assassinate President Hosni Mubarak and also murdered petty officials and Christian shopkeepers. The slaughter of fifty-eight European tourists in Luxor in 1996 was carried out by members of the Gama'a. Gihad had criticized the killing of foreign tourists, which became a major Gama'a weapon in the war against the Egyptian government. Scaring tourists subjected tens of thousands of Egyptians to additional hardship, but they did not blame it on the government; they blamed it on the terrorists.

The fugitive Saudi financier of Islamist terrorism, Osama Bin Laden, prevailed upon the leaders of both groups to stop fighting the domestic enemy and concentrate on the "Great Satan." Too many of their operatives had been neutralized by the Egyptian security services. Since 1998, when both groups, Gama'a and Gihad, more or less ceased to operate in Egypt, the full force of their new activism, carried by thousands of expatriates all around the globe, has been directed against Americans.

[B}THE AFGHANISTAN CONNECTION
Volunteers from the Arab world who joined the war against the communists in Afghanistan received military training in camps along Pakistan's border. In the nineties, sons began to step into the shoes of their mujahideen fathers. Sometimes the product of an Arab father and an Afghan or Pakistani mother, those young men now crave to use their experience to topple governments back home and establish "Islamic states." Arabs call them the Arab-Afghans, a term that makes rulers shiver with fright. They are also called collectively "the monster."

With the ascension of Bin Laden and the assumption of leadership abroad by Aiman Az-Zawahiri, the selective terrorism of Gihad gave way to more murderous tactics, the sort previously typical only of Gama'a. In 1998 terrorist groups were restructured and tactics were changed by an agreement to use the most violent means, even if this meant killing hundreds of bystanders. This unification of personnel, tactics, and objectives resulted in an activation and radicalization of the terror jihadists carried out internationally. In November 1995, the Egyptian Embassy in Islamabad had been bombed, killing seventeen diplomats and several nontargeted watchmen, Afghans and Pakistanis. It was a rehearsal for the bombing of U.S. Embassies in East Africa.

In February 1998 exiled leaders of Gama'a and Gihad announced an apparent merger. This became possible by accepting Bin Laden as their supreme leader and joining Al-Qaida ("The Base")-his very own "bureau"-or the umbrella organization Global Islamic Front to Fight Jews and Crusaders, founded under his command. The Egyptian jihadists are important because of their large following at home and the presence of so many of them around the world. Experienced in underground activities and often well qualified in a technical field, they became Bin Laden's new tribe, though he does have associates from other nationalities, too.

Unification meant the ascendancy of Gihad's secretary-general, Zawahiri, a medical doctor and Bin Laden's favorite among the Egyptian Islamists. Both are fugitives from their respective governments, Zawahiri since 1985. His was a triumph over several rival leaders, including Abdel Rahman. Imprisoned in the United States and depressed because of the lack of limelight, the blind sheik ceded the leading role to the Saudi millionaire and his Egyptian right-hand man.

CHARASMATIC LEADER WITH THE REQUIRED QUALIFICATIONS
An important factor in the unification and globalization of jihadism was the leadership provided by Bin Laden, Zawahiri, and a dozen other activists. Some observers argued that the combat against Islamist extremism should not be a one-sided hunt for Bin Laden, as there were other terrorist leaders around. Such criticism underestimated the specialty of the Saudi rebel. Bin Laden is a forceful leader who became a rallying point for several reasons:
Ms wealth allows him to purchase passports for his adepts and bribe officials in many countries, as well as to avail himself of the most advanced technology. Egypt's minister of the interior, Gen. Habib Al'Adli, says that Bin Laden is the major source of funding for jihadists in Egypt.

His record is notable for personal bravery and dedication. Bin Laden is one of the few Arab-Afghans who actually fought in Afghanistan in a more than symbolic fashion.

His intelligence and inventiveness are considerable. Like many Arab-Afghans, the Saudi jihadist is a messianic zealot. And yet, in his own right he is a restrained person with a practical bent of mind. Efficient in running his construction companies, he applied his experience to the war. Taking a fleet of bulldozers to Afghanistan, he built underground fortifications the Russians were never able to destroy.

His leadership qualities enabled him to make the right choice of lieutenants and avoid being betrayed over a period of some twenty years. He has the gift of not antagonizing associates and the knack of gathering followers around him, making them coordinate at least some of their activities. In March 2000 some jihadists in Egypt called the association with Bin Laden their biggest mistake, causing Zawahiri to resign from the Gihad leadership. But this did not seriously impair Bin Laden's capacity for action. The number of his devotees has continued to increase.

His Arabian origin gives him a psychological advantage. Jihadists believe that some of the worst people can be found in Saudi Arabia. And yet, once an Arabian is acknowledged as a leader, a halo attaches to him and others cannot easily compete. The House of Saud made full use of that fascination until Bin Laden directed the same weapon against it. A businessman with no Islamic training, he acts as if he were a religious authority. It is doubtful that this would have worked had he not been an Arabian.

His internationalism continues to grow. Bin Laden has lived in several countries. One of his wives is from the Philippines. The embassy bombings in East Africa and hints by his companions lend some credence to a 1996 report by Philippine military intelligence that the Oklahoma culprits had associated with jihadists in the southern Philippines, called the Abu Sayyaf group. This would implicate Bin Laden. At the time, U.S. authorities suspected this report to be a fabrication.

His pragmatism has allowed him to inspire a variety of extremists. At the start of the Afghan adventure, Bin Laden attached himself to Hikmatyar, the man Pakistan's military intelligence (ISI) wanted to install as the new ruler in Kabul. In 1996 the ISI launched the Taliban as Pakistan's new horse in Afghanistan. It looked more promising than Hikmatyar, who promptly took refuge in Iran. Given the intimate relationship between Hikmatyar and the Arab-Afghans for over fifteen years, one would have expected Bin Laden to oppose the Taliban . Moreover, the Taliban was initially financed by the Saudi government as a counterweight to Hikmatyar, who sided with Saddam Hussein in 1991.

To find Bin Laden working with the Taliban as a brother was astounding, all the more since the Taliban had no connection with the international network of jihadist parties such as the Muslim Brethren. In fact, the Taliban chased the jihadists away, and the jihadists cursed it as an American creation. The Taliban emanated out of a religious establishment in Pakistan opposed to the Islamists. The group's core consisted of Afghan orphans who knew nothing of the world except what they were indoctrinated with in Pakistani refugee camps. Those were the men Bin Laden needed, because their example inspired. Thousands of Pakistani teenagers ran away from home to join the jihad in Afghanistan. Bin Laden chose the winning side and helped it on to further victories.

CAIRO PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THE BALKAN-ARABS n 1999, court proceedings occurred in the military camp Haekstep near Cairo against 107 persons accused of terrorism, most of them Gihad members. The case became known as that of the Albania-Returnees, in analogy to an earlier case called the Afghanistan-- Returnees, which dragged on for years.

In 1998 Albania had handed fourteen wanted Egyptians over to their government. Others accused in this case were extradited by Azerbaijan, Bulgaria, Canada, Ecuador, Kuwait, Pakistan, South Africa, Uruguay, the United States, the United Arab Emirates, as well as several Arab states that did not want to be mentioned. Six of the accused were in jail in Britain or Austria. Another sixty-one were tried in absentia; the whereabouts of some suspects were not known. As many of them were said to have been to Albania, Bosnia, or Bulgaria, they also were referred to as Balkan-Arabs.

The principal accused, Ibrahim AnNaggar, declared, "I support the Nairobi operation because that embassy was the biggest spy center monitoring Islamist movements in the region. I am a Muslim and opposed to the Jews. I am with Osama Bin Laden in whatever he does. The confrontation with America is a challenge, and ZawAhiri must not be left alone with this task. It is an obligation upon the entire Islamic nation." With such gibes the jihadists vented their fury over CIA participation in their arrests and interrogations. Three of them, including a Sudanese national, were allegedly "kidnapped" by the CIA in the Azerbaijan capital, Baku.

Whatever torture the Egyptian interrogators used, now it was all the fault of the CIA. Serbs wiped out mujahideen, but the blame fell on the Americans who told the Kosovars not to cooperate with Arabs. In London, terrorism suspect Ibrahim Idarus complained that he was in jail not because of Egyptian demands but because of American pressure. In Cairo the accused turned the proceedings into a propaganda show against the United States and vowed to continue their war. Slogans chanted were directed not against the government but against the "Great Satan":
Thaura thaura bi l-qur'an didda lyahud wa l-amrikan. "Revolution with the Qur'an against Jews and Americans!"
Thaura thaura islamiya didd amrika s-- salibiya. "Islamic Revolution against Crusader America!"
Ya Clinton, ya la'in ya saffaha l-mus limin. "Damn you, Clinton, you butcher of Muslims!"

Nine of the accused received the death sentence, including Zawahiri. Eleven were sentenced to lifelong imprisonment. They too would have been sentenced to death had the Egyptian authorities not had to assure the extraditing countries that they would not be executed. Cairo was hoping that more countries, especially Britain, would extradite jihadists, adding to the ever-growing list of "Returnees from Everywhere." Those hopes did not materialize. Germany even granted asylum to another Egyptian fugitive. As a result Cairo felt free to go ahead with the executions, starting with above-mentioned An-Naggar. Bin Laden was not formally charged, but the security service accused him of seeking to create, with the help of Gihad, "a new fundamentalist generation in Egypt, by recruiting members at the universities and in slum areas."

FROM THE HINDU KUSH TO LAKE VICTORIA

The movement succeeded spectacularly in achieving globalization. In 1995 Zaw&iiir went on a fund-- raising tour of the United States, visiting mosques frequented by Egyptians and other Arabs. A disciple of his, Abu Dhahab, went to San Francisco to learn flying, only to pass his skills on to fellow jihadists in the Afghan city of Jalalabad. They intended to liberate Gihad members from prison by flying a hang glider from Cairo's Moqattam Hill. When the plan was dropped, Abu Dhahab went back to the United States and connected calls from around the world with members of the organization inside Egypt, thereby assisting in the preparation of terrorist attacks. He also furnished Zawahiri with forged documents. Another Gihad activist, Abu s-Sa'ud, formerly an officer in Egypt's special forces, joined the U.S. Army in 1987 and became an instructor in Middle Eastern topography, while working as one of Bin Laden's operatives.
The most adventurous career was that of Al-Banshiri. The name derives from Afghanistan's Panj-Sher Valley region, where he fought the Russians at the side of Tajik warlord Ahmad Shah Mas'ud. Banshiri was last heard of when a boat capsized in Lake Victoria. The military court sentenced him in absentia to life imprisonment, just in case the drowned mujahid should surface on another continent. The report about his death in Kenya ought to have drawn attention to the presence in East Africa of confidants of Bin Laden's before the attacks on the U.S. Embassies in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi.

Disinformation is a favorite tactic with Gihad. In 1996 it reported with some detail, including photos, about Zawahiri's activities in Switzerland, while he was in a different corner of the world. During the 1998 court proceedings he was hiding in Albania, confronted with a grim situation, according to his followers.

The disclosure that Malaysia has for some time been the matrix of Gihad's international activities contributed to the downfall of Anwar Ibrahim, a powerful Islamist minister in Kuala Lumpur. More startling was the scheme of smuggling Bin Laden into Egypt for a cosmetic operation that was to make him unrecognizable. Such refinement demanded too much of the uncouth Taliban , because the operation needed pharaonic skills.

Confessions by the Albania-- Returnees have confirmed that Bin Laden is indeed the menace that he is held to be within the circles of U.S. specialists on terrorism. An arrested coworker of his claimed that the Saudi extremist possesses biological and chemical weapons. Some commentators hoped that this was merely another piece of disinformation, or perhaps gallows humor. Like most of the accused, however, this Arab-Afghan seemed intoxicated with a sense of victory, and most observers left with gnawing doubts. While the Egyptian government claims to have domestic terrorism under control, Cairo is bracing for more court proceedings on the pattern of the cases against the Afghanistan and Albania-- Returnees. Khalid Dunin is the editor of TransIslam Magazine

[Heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It would be apparent that these young people have been so complacent and secure in their lives that they do not comprehend the real world of life and death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not advocating that it's preferable that we have a generation familiar with death, are you Snowbird?

We'll diverge, I'm sure, on the philosophical exercise but I disagree strongly that one needs to have battled in a war to appreciate life.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Considering there is a sociological dilemma these days in this country with children killing children, and babies killing their parents, and parents killing their babies. You are seeing the symptoms of a generation that has spent too much time playing computer games where they can kill every day. I suspect they have no concept of
the permanence of real death. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't believe the 'sociological dilemmas' that you cite are as common as you'd like to believe. I'd argue that intra-family murder is cited more often in the bible than in media coverage over the last decade.

I'd argue that those who'd spend their days and nights transfixed to violent computer games, represent a minute minority of this mythic and over-simplified and easily dismissed 'generation', and rarely, if EVER, hold a position of power, corporately or politically, to impact anything other than their own pasty-faced complexion.

BTW, I though familiarity with death was a valuable life tool, no? Couldn't we consider the 'violent' basement-dwelling, game-playing generation as commandos in training for the war against Bin Laden?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now that children have been prevented from enjoying all our sins re: cowboys and indians and other war games we see their children. Oh! yes and I don't want to forget spankings, washing the mouth out with soap and other assorted cruelty like a stay at home Mom who knew exactly what was happening all the time. Have things gotten better?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frankly, I think your generation has greater sins than a playground romp of cowboys and indians.

Personally, my children have never been spanked, their mouths have never frothed with Ivory. In my opinion, those who'd resort to a belt buckle and a bar of Ivory soap to punish their children are not only cruel, but lazy parents.

Cruelty, BTW, is a society which continues to espouse the values of the nuclear family without creating a socio-economic infrastructure which would enable mothers to stay at home, if she so chooses. Cruel is a nation of wealth in which 1/3 of its children are uninsured for medical care, and more of whom live below the poverty line.

BTW, having invested all this time cutting and pasting the original post, putting digits to keyboard, what exactly do any of your assertions have to do with the battle against Bin Laden?

[Ruby G. Weber]

Very informative and interesting read.

A bit unsettling, though. One can only hope that there is someone within the organization(s) who can be persuaded to sing for money instead of die "for the cause."

[ImpsDelight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
I am ashamed of this generation we have spawned.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 17, 2001 at 12:02 AM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great attitude, snowbird. That's one of the most thoughtless statements I've read yet. Please don't tell your children you're ashamed of their generation.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[N&B&T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:

On another issue we can deal with where this society has gone wrong. I find it very amusing that my generation did so much much considered wrong by today's standards in raising our children and we apparently are responsible for the generation of environmentalists and peacemakers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am genuinely confused by this particular statement--are you saying that environmentalists and peacemakers are bad things? Or are you saying, ironically, that "despite child-rearing techniques that are currently considered 'wrong', we still managed to produce a generation of people who are concerned for the environment and other people, so we must have been doing something right"? Or something else entirely?

[Snowbird]

I have not been one who argues for my family values because I am willing to see there might be a better way, and I have been watching and waiting patiently with hope it will work out. Actually, I can appreciate your sarcasism since I too thought I would never be part of a generation gap.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Personally, my children have never been spanked, their mouths have never frothed with Ivory. In my opinion, those who'd resort to a belt buckle and a bar of Ivory soap to punish their children are not only cruel, but lazy parents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you're being a little judgmental and since my generation has produced this whole generation of genius and talent, I think we should get a little respect. Personally, I haven't ever needed to do either myself because the threat and the possibility were usually a sufficient deterrant to bad behavior. I do however respect that there are some children who might just require some immediate intervention that is not pacifist, and I am gratefful that I had the opportunity to make my own choices.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Cruelty, BTW, is a society which continues to espouse the values of the nuclear family without creating a socio-economic infrastructure which would enable mothers to stay at home, if she so chooses. Cruel is a nation of wealth in which 1/3 of its children are uninsured for medical care, and more of whom live below the poverty line.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh! my I wonder where those entitlements came from? I think it might have been my generation who wanted to be sure that no one ever felt alone again.

No one created an infra-structure for me to stay home with my children, not any of the ladies with whom I shared bench time while pushing our carriages had anyone to help them either. And, the so-called nuclear family was not a fantasy, it was real. We actually all sat down and ate an entire meal altogether every night. We did have a family that stayed together through all events. Yes, I did have the classic nuclear family.

In the schools they tried to teach my daughters that they needed to humor their parents because we didn't understand the changing world and therefore should be forgiven for such a bad idea.

I'm not sure if unemployment payment existed, but if it did we would never have collected because we thought that was an admission of failure. We just did without some creature comforts to make it work for us. We made our own choices. Today's poverty line would have been riches for us depression babies. I think in New York state they have an annual salary of $50,000 a year as in the poverty level.

Guess who actually campaigned for and got Social Security benefits fo seniors? Guess which generation passed the un-employment laws and all those welfare entitlements?

Cruel to me is a society which does not prepare it's children to take care of themselves and makes them dependent on the system...Cruel to me is to have children that never have the pleasure and the personal sense of accomplishment from a job well done...Cruel to me is to make children victims of the system with which they must comply because money is all that matters. Not all children are equal but why should they be labeled so they can be spoon fed an illusion.

We looked for a job doing what we loved and then we hoped we could pay the bills. What we did was more important how much we earned.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'd argue that those who'd spend their days and nights transfixed to violent computer games, represent a minute minority of this mythic and over-simplified and easily dismissed 'generation', and rarely, if EVER, hold a position of power, corporately or politically, to impact anything other than their own pasty-faced complexion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not hold that to be true, I think it is cruel to easily discard so many children as aautomatic failures.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BTW, having invested all this time cutting and pasting the original post, putting digits to keyboard, what exactly do any of your assertions have to do with the battle against Bin Laden?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My attention span included and responded to the email of Hobson and his fears as an advisor in a college where he felt the students were looking forward to war as a great party. The reaction in his environment of those children to the possibility of war with the likes of Bin Laden.

Since, Hobson certifies this is true then we were discussing why there was such a reaction of young people in what should be an educational institution.

If we take all these little percentages of deviance together, it would be my guess a large percentage of these children will certainly require moocho entitlements as they age.

[jparkes]

Dittos, dittos, dittos!!!
I have long been lost for words with this group, but I'll stand behind everything you say!
I tip my hat to you and the WWII generation. As for me, I agree with Tom Brokaw, you are the greatest generation.

[Snowbird]

Nothing is impossible if you want it bad enough and
we proved one person can make a difference. So you guys! it's your turn to carry the torch.

Moose that was a wonderful presentation of the history of how we got here. A lot more than I realized has passed and we all need to understand it all. I think from what I've heard George W. is pretty smart. I read today that even Afghanistan is at least considering giving up Bin Laden. That's better than we had. An international crime trial with Amasa Bin Laden as a criminal would do a lot to help the world. I would like to see him sentenced not to death but to forever on some desert island where he would die like his supporters alone from hunger and a need for shelter. Let the rain wash his soul and the sun bleach his black heart. And, let him every day realize what he has done and when it's over let the vultures pick his bones so that his body serves some good purpose to keep them alive.

Thank you, I am grateful for the appreciation of what we managed to get done. You know I remember when gas was rationed and we turned down the heat, I remember ration books for food and every minute was worth it to see the despots who tried to make us their slaves go down.

I am so old I even remember the World's Fair where TV was introduced and only went between two rooms. I heard FDR make his speeches on a radio and I remember the Green Hornet and the Shadow. I rode in a Model-T Ford when it was the hottest thing on the road at 25 miles per hour. And, I'll bet no one out there even knows what a rumble seat was? I did PR for the Congressman who introduced Social Security in the House and guess what it was a Republican.

There's a lot of history you need to know about and I'm very grateful to Tom Brokaw for remembering us. All I want is for the new generations to pick up the torch and run with it.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 19, 2001 at 01:00 AM.]

[Magnolia]

Hobson-
I am also disturbed by people wanting to go blow the (insert favorite cussword here) out of Afghanistan that are our supposed best and brightest on campuses across the US. It is that kind of spouting off that makes me fear for my Middle Eastern friends. And you are right, they think of it almost sexually, or like the big game! I think thats what they think, it is a big game that they can win at almost no cost. I don't think they understand that if we go in as foot soldiers, the game may end with DEATH for so many. And that they are fighting people for whom death in the name of Allah is the ultimate victory. I do think our true military men and women understand the full gravity of the situation.
Bin Laden is a really smart man. Nobody will be able to kill him. Likely, nobody can even reason with him. We need to concentrate on confiscating his $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and stopping the flow of $$$$$$$$$ to his people. It infuriates me that he is able to invest in US companies. Shake his financial network out - the attorneys, accountants, and brokers (AND THEY, AND I BELIEVE WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE!!!!!). Make them pay for what happened. They , not some 20 year old Afghani girl are the ones that are responsible.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Snowbird]

I thought it would be great if every family of everyone killed by his asassins sued Bin Laden for damages. Our attorney General should bring this civil suit which would put liens and freezes on all his bank accounts.

[jparkes]

The lyrics of the battle hymn-

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fatal lightning of his terrible swift sword:
His Truth is marching on.
CHORUS: Glory, glory, hallelujah,
Glory, glory, hallelujah,
Glory, glory, hallelujah,
His truth is marching on.
I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps;
They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps.
His Day is marching on.
-- CHORUS
I have read a fiery gospel, writ in burnished rows of steel:
'As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal;
Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel,
Since God is marching on.'
-- CHORUS
He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
He is sifting out the hearts of men before his judgment-seat:
Oh! be swift, my soul, to answer Him! be jubilant, my feet!
Our God is marching on.
-- CHORUS
In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me:
As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
While God is marching on.
-- CHORUS

[Jumphigh83]

Amen jparkes and ditto to Snowbird! Why is it so hard to realize that freedom comes with a price tag...I can't stand some of the rhetoric on these boards! YOu didn't just get here able to write this mindless liberal drivel! Someone DIED so you could sit back and freely place moral judgement in an open forum on the leadership of the greatest countyr in the world! ugh... I am officially part of the generation gap even though I am part of the (swallow hard and gag)"me" generation...My sentiments run truer to the WWII generation who knows what WORK and SACRIFICE really mean.

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Louise]

A stirring song that rouses patriotism in every heart. One of the greatest "calls to battle" that ever came out of war.

Let us not forget the war that that hymn came out of - a war of brother against brother, where disease and pestilence killed more than the guns of the battlefield. A war whose repercussions still echo almost 150 years after it ended.

Hobson is undoubtedly right about the fervor that grips those of college age. It gripped Snowbird's generation too, after Pearl Harbor, it gripped those in the early days of WWI, after the sinking of the Lusitania, and it gripped thousands of young men in the early days of the Civil War. It's battle fever and it can be used and manipulated, in any situation.

Don't get me wrong - I think that ben Laden and every terrorist alive should be eradicated and that terrorism should never raise it's ugly head on Earth again.

But, I think that this talk of "generations" is full of hooey. Times change, outward social conditions change, but our basic teaching remains the same, and our ability to respond with nobility remains unimpared.

And, by the way, I live in NY and it's nice to know that I run a household and manage to care for two "high-maintenance" horses on a salary that is well below "poverty level."

[Heidi]

I'd like to point out that there are equal numbers on the BB who've reacted with frighteningly extremist and reactionary opinions - are you intimating that they're somehow greater, more valuable, patriots than those who espouse, in your words, liberal drivel?

Are people allowed to proffer a differing opinion without being slammed as less a patriot than yourself?

Lastly, having read virtually all of your posts on the various threads regarding the terrorist attacks, and as a Korean who was relentlessly taunted and teased as a child, told to 'go back where you came from', I've found many of your admonitions to, 'leave if you don't like it here' utterly offensive and among the most shocking things I've ever read on this BB.

[LittleWitch]

NPR played this song this morning because it was on a list of songs that a radio station owner recommened that his stations NOT play because people may find them offensive... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today . . .

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one.

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world . . .

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one.

[vineyridge]

Pearl Harbor was 60 years ago. The Depression was pretty much over in 1939, when the European War started, and Canada was sucked in with Britain. WWII lasted until late in 1945. That's 56 years ago.

Just how old ARE you? I'm assuming that in order to participate meaningfully in the events of my parent's generation, you would have had to be at least 18. Does that mean that you are nearly 80?

I commend you for your incredible youthfulness and activity level at such an advanced age.

War hysteria leads to infringements of the civil rights and liberties of dissenters. What is happening now is not WAR. It has not been declared by Congress, as required by the constitution. It is drums beating to heighten emotive responses. We will need to be as vigilant to preserve our personal freedoms as the government is to curtail them in the name of "safety."

I'm one of those wishy washy liberals, and proud of it.

[Brookes]

Snowbird, you aren't old, you are seasoned!! I appreciate your views and the careful thought you express in your words. I am going to take the high road along with you and agree with what you say. I am not quite as seasoned as you may be, however I find myself at odds quite often with the views of the more youthful. Stand strong Snowbird, I enjoy your posts more than you can imagine. Thank you for sharing your experience with those of us who can only imagine what is was like.

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

[Jumphigh83]

Heidi, I am simply amazed by the lack of maturity and understanding coming from some posters on theis BB...I mentioned NO names so any association with yourself or others is simply a function of a guilty conscience. I am not a "war monger" and no one need "fear" my outlook..It is simply that of a patriotic American taking exception to OUR country being targeted by an obvious madman (et al) and recognizing that sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet. Thank you veterans for making this Country what it is today..Your sacrifice and intestinal fortitude make any ignorant short sighted and simply rediculous comments printable in an open forum... That's all I have to say on THIS thread,

Betsy
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...

[Magnolia]

Just read another thing that kind of makes me a bit unproud of our Gov't. I HOPE this is a rumor, but I read it in the paper, not on the internet, which maybe makes it more reliable.
Our US Govt gave Afghanistan (the Taliban)43 MILLION DOLLARS last year for the "war on drugs" (I believe Afghanistan produces copious amounts of everyone's favorite - marijuana). Now, I'm not doubting our govt had the best intentions, but:
1. How DARE we give tax dollars, partially earned by women to a nation which openly oppresses their female population. We should give them NO money except maybe to help their women. That is just SICK.
2. I doubt it was spent on a drug war. I'm sure pot is quite the cash crop their. Probably helping arm the military.
UGH!!!!! What other irresponsible things do we do with our tax dollars???????????

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[hobson]

Hmmm, I hadn't heard that. I'm a little skeptical, since we have not recognized the regime as a legitimate government. Obviously our tax dollars HAVE gone to support these brutes, but I didn't think it was quite so recent.

[Ruby G. Weber]

They intend to fight this "war" conventionally, but also with all other means at their disposal.

These fanatical Islamics led by bin Laden are no different than the Nazis led by another infamous fanatic, Hilter. The only difference between then and now is that America and Americans are the targets, not Jews and Judism.

Islam does not advocate hatred anymore than Christianity does. These terrorists are hiding behind their faith, not practicing it.

Not matter what you think about our Governments actions in the past, now is the time to speak with one voice before we cannot speak at all.

[Heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am not a "war monger" and no one need "fear" my outlook <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And more importantly, you are not in public office or reside in Canada.

I don't believe your 'rediculous' post to be worthy of comment -- except that I'm delighted that you've decided to cease and desist from this thread.

[Magnolia]

Thanks Hobson-
I read it in Creative Loafing. They are our "alternative weekly" I do sometimes think their articles maybe have sketchy sources... but I usually trust them better than the Observer etc...

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Erin]

Heidi, Betsy... take it easy, please.

[Heidi]

But she started it!!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously, I do vow never to respond to any of Betsy's posts - my own little bid for peace. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[pt]

I never thought highly of John Lennon as a political analyst....

but, taking the lyrics of "Imagine" as an indication of a worldview acceptable to you at least,

Would you agree to owning

no clothes
no house
no car
no horse
no books
no food
not the least little item of personal value

but having any/all of those items available for anyone's use at their choice?

Serious question - not slamming you.

[pt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't believe your 'rediculous' post to be worthy of comment -- except that I'm delighted that you've decided to cease and desist from this thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, JumpHigh should go back where she came from?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Heidi]

May I invoke Robby Johnson and comment that you are wearing your ass on your shoulders? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Magnolia]

PT-
Yes, if instead of having to work 40-60 hours a week away from my loved ones, but instead working say, 20 hours and having to share things like horses, my home, and car, with like minded people, with peace and love in their hearts, never worrying about war or violence, I would trade in my broke down car, one day a week lease on a horsie which I can barely afford, home whose value drops thanks to politicians that ignore our neighborhood, and the cheapest clothes I can find. (at least I would...)

Heidi-
I read a nice comment you made earlier about a parent being able to stay home, health care for 1/3 of people not having it...THANK YOU!!!! Our govt in the US is not perfect, nor is it humane. I still love the USA (mainly the good people that live here). But I do wish everyone would question our govt more often....

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Snowbird]

Better as it ages. I was 12 during the FDR regime, and a conservative even then believing in the rights of the individual over socialization. It wasn't easy not being for FDR even at 12 years old.

I watched his rise and fall. I will say there were many good ideas that I still approve of that would make you all in the context of today's entitlements scream like pierced banshees. We had then a thing called the "Poor Farm". The homeless and unemployed it was considered did not have a work ethic and so they were assigned to operate a real working farm. They shared in the profits produced by the crops as well as having a place to live and food.

Irrepressable teen-agers were not diagnosed they went to CCC camps where they learned to cut lumber and again were taught a disciplined work ethic and certainly didn't have a soft ride. There were no excuses made for being lazy. Whatever your mental capacity there surely was some work you could do. You see we were raised to believe two things especially work was it's own benefit and you had to be pleased with life if you had work to do. Whether or not you got paid was never at issue as long as you had warm place to live and enough food not to starve. The other was that it was bad form to exhibit your emotions in public. We also believed that what was right was expected and only what was wrong merited any comments.

I am 72 years old, and delighted to have seen the 21st century. Growing up, the mystery of our generation was the millennium. Very few expected to be here to see it and it was proposed as a very mystical time brinking on perfection and surely all the mysteries of the universe would be solved by then including our meeting the people from Mars.

As a Young Republican in NYU (that in itself is a conflict) we learned economic theories because it was the era when Karl Marx was promising the world Utopia with his Communist Manifesto. Each person would have all they needed and everyone would only have to work to the level of their ability.

There is somewhere out there and old issue of Time magazine where I and my young republicans forced NYU to remove a mural they had commissioned for what was the called LaGuardia Hall. I happened to be there (it was a study hall) when the artist had the audacity to explain his painting to everyone.
My impression was that it referred to the War and then learned that what I thought was the good old USA was actually Russia, and what I thought was Nazi Germany was the USA. I've posted enough for you to imagine my reaction. I have mellowed with the years. It was taken down and never heard from again.

Lot's of us at NYU earned extra money by pretending to be "different" it was a game we played with the uptowners hoping to meet the excentric artist group. I skiied when there was only one chair lift in the whole northeast, and mostly we would herringbone to the top or at best there were rope tows in sections. The T-bar was a real treat.

That's the way we really were, I can forgive activists even if they have a different persuasion but I cannot find patience for apathy and whining. In our world a bad opinion was better than no opinion and our greatest pleasure was debate. If you remember all the old General Stores had the pop-belly stove where the farmers sat around arguing the activities of the day.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 19, 2001 at 04:45 PM.]

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You see were raised to believe two things especially work was it's own benefit and you had to be pleased with life if you had work to do. Whether or not you got paid was never at issue as long as you had warm place to live and enough food not to starve.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, many Americans are not paid enough for their work to be able to have both a hot meal for their families, and a safe home.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Snowbird]

It's not their fault they are just victims of society. Probably suffering from some stress syndrome which makes it so difficult rise in the morning and work all day.

A hot meal is a good bowl of stew. They made the family stew all in one pot for the family. In my living room I still have a working fireplace where you hung the pot over the fire and in the back wall was a place to bake your bread.

Firewood was free, you raised the chicken yourself and the vegetables. The fire warmed the house and when it got dark you did what you could by lamp light. (Real oil lamps) We had cold root cellars where we kept the food that had to last the winter. You really don't have to have a refrigerator if you live next to a cold stream.

What you consider minimal living conditions we would have considered an extravagance. All your disposable toys are what makes it expensive. Families lived on "bone" soup with noodles. Bones were the free left-overs from the butcher shop. Greens you got at 4:00 when the shop keepers trimed them for the fancy folks. What the heck do you think soup greens are?

You know what no one was ever fat or on a diet, no one had a colesteral problem and look at all the European immigrants with their bad diet they could work rings around your head because they were healthy and strong from fresh milk and hard work.

[pt]

Ooooh, Heidi - you can disagree but you can't take disagreement? Tch tch tch

May I offer you a flashlight as well?

[jparkes]

...what questions would you ask our government????

[N&B&T]

Snowbird and Velvet, I recommend you go to Barnes & Noble (www.bn.com (http://www.bn.com)) and look up the following book:

Nickeled and Dimed: Or (Not) Getting By in America, by Barbara Ehrenreich.

Ms. Ehrenreich is a journalist who reseached her book by working as a waitress in Key West, Florida, a cleaning woman and nursing home clerk in Portland, Maine, and at a Walmart in Minneapolis, Minnesota.

If you don't want to buy and read the book, I recommend that you read the reviews, including those posted by individuals who have read the book.

Both of you might find this interesting.

[pt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Yes, if instead of having to work 40-60 hours a week away from my loved ones, but instead working say, 20 hours and having to share things like horses, my home, and car, with like minded people, with peace and love in their hearts, never worrying about war or violence, I would trade in my broke down car, one day a week lease on a horsie which I can barely afford, home whose value drops thanks to politicians that ignore our neighborhood, and the cheapest clothes I can find. (at least I would...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird & I will have to stand shoulder to shoulder on this one.

Because your 20 hrs a week of work would mean 60-80 for me, to pay for your privilege of working only 20 hrs. a week.

But it's about choice.

[jparkes]

No TV in every room, or a VCR or an automatic dishwasher? No microwave? No frozen dinners to fix in 3 minutes?
I bet your parents even made you do chores!
Ah, in today's society CPS would have taken you away for sure!!!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[pt]

Well, CPS might not have taken Snowbird away 'cuz those were the deplorable living conditions of her time -- tell us, Snowbird, just how cold did those wattle 'n daub huts get in winter?

But my parents....post WWII yet no TV at all, no microwave, old enamel gas stove, no computers, no electronic games, house and yard chores plus ways to earn extra $$$ - like pulling 100 weeds for a penny, giving our time to elderly neighbors for grass mowing, snow shoveling, etc. The expectation of straight A's, no using the car without specific permission for a specific purpose, and if we had enough time to "hang out" after school, my parents could find plenty of constructive activity to fill that time.

My mother stayed home with us, but it was paid for by the "deprivations" listed above, plus meatless meals and a lot more choices no-one probably wants to hear about....

Sheesh! no wonder we're so screwed up!!!!

Does it appear, jparkes, that there are now 3 of us holding the less popular POV?

[LittleWitch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but, taking the lyrics of "Imagine" as an indication of a worldview acceptable to you at least, Would you agree to owning

no clothes
no house
no car
no horse
no books
no food
not the least little item of personal value

but having any/all of those items available for anyone's use at their choice? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted the lyrics because I was surprised that someone would find a song about peace offensive in the aftermath of the terror attacks.

But here is the answer to your question: I want to live in a world where it is my right to own any and all of the things listed above. But I choose to live a lifestyle where, to the level possible, I don't own 'things' (and those 'things' don't own me).

no clothes - not really practical
no house - I don't own a house, I rent
no car - I don't own a car, I am a member of a car sharing program
no horse - I own horses but try to share them as much as possible
no books - I own books but try to use the library most of the time
no food - not really practical
not the least little item of personal value - ?

I do believe that we should try to live simply so that others may simply live.

[Magnolia]

Ya know,
1. If you have a chicken in the city, it will be confiscated.
Anyhow, questions for my govt:
1. Where does my tax money go? You take 33% of my income, what do you spend it on? Please, be honest, no lying necessary. What do you fund? Wars? Schools? Police? National Parks? Corporate welfare? People welfare? Flags? Just curious. Maybe index it, so I can easily look into what I'm interested in.
2. If I'm so free, why can't I use drugs? I'm only hurting myself. Why can't I hook for a living? We are both consenting adults. BTW, why do you penalize black folks more harshly for these crimes?
3. Why can't I have a chicken or a goat in the city and be self sufficient?
4. Why do I have to have electricty provided by Duke Energy in Charlotte, why can't I be independent and off the grid?
5. Why can't my kid pray in school or have a Jesus or Allah T-shirt on? Who gets freedom of speech? Old Navy?
6. Why can't I have the money corporations get from logging our forests? Why the deep discount? Shouldn't we at least profit from our own resources?
I hope you all have some ??? for your gov't.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[N&B&T]

pt, I grew up like that too (wait, we had an old electric stove)--so what?

[pt]

LW - I was just taking the lyrics to their uttermost application - wasn't offended by the song which I think is lovely.

However, interpretation is all - to me, the song isn't about peace, it's about a socialist world. John Lennon chose to live in the USA but he was never a big fan of us.

It's great to choose to live simply - but it is still all about choice. I doubt that you would want that choice taken away.

[jparkes]

She has held up a lot longer than I ever could facing this group. I'm glad to see that there's another one or two that have the same views. Maybe together we can continue to encourage her to fight the good fight!
Snowbird - during WWII, did we have such a division politically in this counrty as we do today? Did the colleges around this country protest the war, or was that just Vietnam?

[pt]

NPF - so, a lot of the moaning & groaning both on & off this bb has to do with people who want the good life with all the toys, bells & whistles but don't want to make the personal sacrifices it requires. Or who want to live with simple life - with all the bells, toys & whistles, without making the financial & material sacrifices that requires.

If the shoe fits, wear it; if it doesn't, I wasn't talking to you. (Ray Hunt)

jparkes - I don't know about WWII, but I confess to having been a protester - weekends only - against Vietnam. Things look so simple to us when we are students; now, I'm not at all sure we were right. More has come out about the underlying causes of that conflict, and about who was really behind it (Hint: they own a LOT of this country now) and it's made me realize there's a lot that isn't told us. On all sides. In this situation, too, of course.

Who was the French guy who said "Anyone who is not a Communist at age 20 lacks heart; anyone who is still a Communist at age 30 lacks sense?"

I'm leaving for the weekend - it's been great having this bb to stay grounded a bit this past horrible week - Cheers to all!

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louise:

But, I think that this talk of "generations" is full of hooey. Times change, outward social conditions change, but our basic teaching remains the same, and our ability to respond with nobility remains unimpared.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That might be the most tempered, accurate thing anyone has said on this thread.

Every generation wants to think it is better than all those before and all those after. Most humans run between competetive and insecure. We NEED to think we are special...

But those that live, breathe, speak and write it... My oh my! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It's really quite sad to see those who think they (and their generation) are somehow granted this innate superiority MERELY because they were born in 1920, 1820, 1720, 1951 (pick a number... ANY number /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) and are somehow better than someone born in 1950, 1962, 1973, 1888, 666 BC, or WHATEVER (more /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ).

I guess if I lived by that standard, I would find you all wanting because we haven't seen a Michaelangelo or Da Vinci in several hundred years... Fortunately I try to judge people by their individual actions, not their year of birth.

PS - maybe along with the year of birth/generational Identi-kit, one could also request a person's birthday, so we could get a little horoscope profile. Then we could know exactly what EVERYONE was without any questions asked... I can see it now... June 21, 1962 - get to the back of the room you neo-liberal party switching (it's the Gemini influence) disco loving, freak!!!

[Snowbird]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I can see it now... June 21, 1962 - get to the back of the room you neo-liberal party switching (it's the Gemini influence) disco loving, freak!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a Gemini never been any kind of a liberal. There you go bad generalizations.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Every generation wants to think it is better than all those before and all those after. Most humans run between competetive and insecure. We NEED to think we are special...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was Plato who said "children are not what they used to be, they no longer obey their parents".

Wrong again we wanted every generation to be better than we were, that was the American dream. When you know who you are and are proud of what you are you, don't need to compete with others you can make realistic value judgments. I believe the injustice we did was to protect you all too much from the truth. You can graduate from school is the slow group with straight A's and not even learn that you're really not too smart. But yes! I do think the work ethic was better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But my parents....post WWII yet no TV at all, no microwave, old enamel gas stove, no computers, no electronic games, house and yard chores plus ways to earn extra $$$ - like pulling 100 weeds for a penny, giving our time to elderly neighbors for grass mowing, snow shoveling, etc. The expectation of straight A's, no using the car without specific permission for a specific purpose, and if we had enough time to "hang out" after school, my parents could find plenty of constructive activity to fill that time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH! poor baby what an abused child you were. What hateful parents to want you to get the most you could from school before you played. Imagine the cruelty of being forced to earn that penny instead of begging for it from your Dad.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ya know,
1. If you have a chicken in the city, it will be confiscated.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not if you're clever. You have just accepted defeat, you could mount a campaign to demand that each family be allowed to have chickens and force the Town Council to accept them as a utility and get the law passed. You have permitted yourself to be bossed around by city folks who think chickens in the neighborhood will destroy real estate values. We kept ours in the attic when we lived in the city. My dentist had a pet rooster watched television with him in Newark.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anyhow, questions for my govt:
1. Where does my tax money go? You take 33% of my income, what do you spend it on? Please, be honest, no lying necessary. What do you fund? Wars? Schools? Police? National Parks? Corporate welfare? People welfare? Flags? Just curious. Maybe index it, so I can easily look into what I'm interested in.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was the esteemed leader of communism who taught that when 50% of the people have to support the other 50% and taxes exceeded 50% it would be time for capitalism to implode and the communists would take over the world. His revolution was in economics and not war.

If you don't like the tax structure get up off your heinie and find a lot of people who agree with you and there will be tax reduction. But, it won't change unless you are willing to put some work into it and for free. You don't like how Washington is spending your money good! I agree, I want to keep mine and donate to the causes I prefer. Our constitution guarantees the right to pursue happiness it does not guarantee you can have everything you want when you want it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>2. If I'm so free, why can't I use drugs? I'm only hurting myself. Why can't I hook for a living? We are both consenting adults. BTW, why do you penalize black folks more harshly for these crimes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because you are a minority, if you want to be a majority then start to evangelize. With enough support you can get it done look what they did to prohibition. I don't like drugs because I can get my highs is better ways. Have you ever had the sheer mind blowing joy of real success for something you believed in? Do you have a vision of how it would be better, then you don't need to hide under mind altering drugs that just make you think your great and then it wears off.

Now being a hooker is probably the oldest profession in the world isn't it, so all those prohibitons haven't stopped anybody. If you would really like renting your body instead of working, go for for it. It's legal in some states and a lot of countries.

As to the black folks, well you know the answer, they don't have rich sugar daddies to hire fancy lawyers and bail them out. When they do they get off so we don't hear about it, except for OJ of
course.

What's the answer for them? to do what they're doing now, getting rich too. Poor people are hasseled whatever their color. Look in the show ring everyone loves the loser, no body gets cranky except at a winner.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3. Why can't I have a chicken or a goat in the city and be self sufficient?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because you're in the city and city folks worked hard to earn money so they could get off the farm.
Leave the city and move on a farm.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>4. Why do I have to have electricty provided by Duke Energy in Charlotte, why can't I be independent and off the grid?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well because you didn't pay to have the wires put up and you don't have to maintain them. You should be getting your wish soon. Once the utilities are decentralized you can pick who you want, only problem is it costs a lot more. We have it in New Jersey. We all have to pay for what we use. Turn off the electricity if you don't want to pay them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>5. Why can't my kid pray in school or have a Jesus or Allah T-shirt on? Who gets freedom of speech? Old Navy?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Geez! because that dumb atheist lady went to court and proved her point. And, no one had the guts to fight her off on the public forum. One person made a difference!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>6. Why can't I have the money corporations get from logging our forests? Why the deep discount? Shouldn't we at least profit from our own resources?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sure you should, and there's no reason why the Federal Government owns 80% of Nevada and won't let the farmers graze their critters, except people rolled over and hid their heads. Go to work against campaign donations so they can't buy the votes in congress.

I just want to keep my own money, I don't sit around waiting for so called entitlements of state money. I'll work and make my own and I just don't want anyone to take it. I will gladly give it where I choose. I hate needing to find "tax shelters". Cut the fat out of Washington give the government back to folks.

But, if all you want to do is sit around and whine and complain because you're not getting your share, well you get what you deserve. Everything is not someone else's fault baby! It's your own problem, the right to be free includes the right to starve to death. The more you prevent the right to starve to death in equal proportion you lose the right to be a millionaire.

But, you can always buy lottery tickets.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Sep. 19, 2001 at 11:34 PM.]

[Heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What hareful parents to want you to get the most you could from school before you played <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG, DMK! Are you related to Peter Rabbit?!?!

[hobson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pt:
NPF - so, a lot of the moaning & groaning both on & off this bb has to do with people who want the good life with all the toys, bells & whistles but don't want to make the personal sacrifices it requires. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

pt, darlin'...this has what to do with our having just been attacked by monsters? Are you thinking the evil socialism of us young'ns caused the terrorism? May I remind us that all of the terrorist attacks against the US in the past decade or so have been by those on your side of the political spectrum? The right side?

And please, you really don't have anything to teach me about hard work and personal sacrifice. I come from a blue-collar family. By the age of 23, with NO financial assistance from ANYBODY, I had, on the lowly non-profit organization salary of $20,000, bought myself a house, a new car, an appaloosa, a truck and a trailer. ALthough I no longer live in the house, having moved from Pittsburgh, I GAVE the property to my parents to thank them for what they've done for me. They gain a nice extra rental income from it. I worked hard, I ate gruel in the dark so I could buy a horse I really liked, and darn it, I STILL am able to have compassion for people who are less fortunate than me. I'm hardly insulted by your assertion that us "sniveling liberals" are just spoiled brats - the idea just can't be taken seriously. I'm sure you must think of anyone to the left of yourself, including Martin Luther King Jr, Nelson Mandela and Margaret Thatcher, to be hopeless idiots.

Nobody is "moaning and groaning" here except for those who have invented some unfounded notion that we are the targets of terrorist action because young people are lazy and not properly politically reactionary.

Last week's horrible tragedy, and the forces behind it, were at least 200 years in the making. It has to do with the history of imperialism, modernization, and the rise of fundamentalism, not to mention a century or more of resource exploitation. We would be wise to crack a book about all of the above and make an attempt to understand something about geopolitics and the global balance of power. It's a LOT more complicated than your idea that whiny Hobson hates to work for a living, causing The Greatest Nation On Earth to become vulnerable.

[Snowbird]

Next to the tooth fairy he was my favorite. That's why I live on a farm I keep hoping he'll pop up and visit.

Bet you're favorite was Alice in the Looking Glass nope my mistake that was Alice in Wonderland and I bet you're still angry with the Mad Hatter.

[Heidi]

Perhaps you should speak to that liberal whiner DMK and see what strings she can pull with her uncle, Peter Rabbit.

Yes, thank you for noticing, I still have an unresolved issue with the Mad Hatter - but we're working through it in therapy.

Hobson, amen sister!

[Snowbird]

Imagine all this vehemence just because you and I were discussing the situation with today's college kids.

It is nice to have an agreeable disagreement. And, I commend you and your parents, they did a really good job and I'm really glad you were able to show your gratitude while they could enjoy it. It sounds to me like you went to school to get an education and were successful.

[elizabeth]

Snowbird, you disclosed today that you are . . . over 60, so I must ask. . .

what in the WORLD are you doing up at this hour?? (1 a.m., Eastern time)

And don't you run a barn? So I would assume you get up early!!

Geepers, I'm a 27 year old whippersnapper who WEEPS if she is in bed later than 11 p.m. and has to rise the next day before 7 a.m.

How do you DO it?? Do you eat well?

[Louise]

"But yes! I do think the work ethic was better."

Let me tell you a story, told to me by my Aunt, who is six years younger than my Mom, and, by the way, who was the first woman commander of one of the observation posts that dotted the East Coast during WWII.

She can remember when she was a child listening to my Grandparents lament about my Mom, who was a very wild and reckless teenager, even going so far as to ride the running boards of cars racing up and down the Galveston beaches! They were sure that she would come to no good end, that they had failed in their responsibilities.

This is the same girl, who, a couple of years later, when my Grandmother died unexpectedly, took over management of the entire household at the age of 18. She cared not only for my Grandfather and my aunt, but for a niece and nephew who had been left with the family while another of my Aunts left to find a good job in another city. She learned to cook and clean and she did it well.

My point is, you can't tell how a person is going to respond to crisis, until that crisis appears. To say that the work ethic was better back then is much too general and entirely too pessimistic. It is also, as you have pointed out, an attitude that has persisted throughout history. Don't count the generations that have grown up behind you out, until you see how those generations respond to the challenges that face them. And, don't be so sure that your generation did such a lousy job in raising their children /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[N&B&T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Louise:

My point is, you can't tell how a person is going to respond to crisis, until that crisis appears.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo!!

[Magnolia]

Hobson-
Wow! What a speech. I'm proud to be of your age group! I can not claim the same, being a pampered princess growing up. But I did, up until a few months ago work for a living (Now I'm in school, again). Yep, I whine and complain, but, I do take action when I get really mad. Hey, there is 80 acres of nature preserve in Charlotte that can attest to the irritated phonecalls, meetings, and endless petitioning done by myself and my boyfriend, in coordination with lots of irate people, young and old.(And yep, lots of those meetings were 95% "Grey Panthers" and Brad and I)
Snowbird, thanks for answering my questions to the government. Sadly, my officials are seldom that direct. Mostly they are wishy washy, and never tell their real view. I mean c'mon, rational forest management? Just say you are all for logging Susie, I'd appreciate it! It is much easier to complain to the local govt. than the Feds, do THEY even know where our $$$$$ goes?
I will say that Hobson is correct. We simply must educate ourselves about matters before spouting off. And our media does little to enable this study of all the information pertaining to a topic. It is what leads to 18 year old bigots spouting off about "nuking them towelheads back to the stone age".

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
I'm a Gemini never been any kind of a liberal. There you go bad generalizations. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO!! I do LOVE it when the point goes sailing across the room and splatters into the opposite wall /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You are right - bad generalization. I had no clue you were a gemini, although I was reasonably certain your birth year preceeded 1962 (gee, who do you THINK I was referring to /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ). But here's a hint. The point was indeed BAD GENERALIZATIONS. I do so wish you would stop making them about my generation, your generation and every other generation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It was Plato who said "children are not what they used to be, they no longer obey their parents".

Wrong again we wanted every generation to be better than we were, that was the American dream.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet we are doomed to failure? To hear you speak one could only assume so. To accept that Plato was right, I can only assume you have a big bunker in that mountain, because after this many generations of generational decline, the words "going to hell in a handbasket" couldn't possibly begin to describe the armagedden we must face from our children.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When you know who you are and are proud of what you are you, don't need to compete with others you can make realistic value judgments. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point. If you fully absorbed the meaning of this statement, you might possibly realize that turning the majority of your posts into a discussion about how wonderfully glorious and grand your generation (and by association, "you") is, as compared to all others after yours, you might realize that it sounds a tad insecure to compete with others in this manner. Just a thought, mind you...


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I believe the injustice we did was to protect you all too much from the truth.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NEWSFLASH! You don't know me, or a vast majority of the people on this planet. You are not qualified to say what life experiences that I, or most others have had. You don't know our parents and what/how they have taught us. You, in short, have no basis to make this statement.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You can graduate from school is the slow group with straight A's and not even learn that you're really not too smart. But yes! I do think the work ethic was better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not really sure what point you are making here, but good heavens, Snowbird... WHAT DO YOU THINK WE ARE DOING OUT THERE???? The unemployment rate has been at it's lowest since WWII for the last several years. Is it not possible that the state of the economy might possibly have something to do with joblessness? Or were all those people during the Depression just lazy?

Heidi - thankfully it was not my parents who were referred to as "hareful" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But all the same, may I join you with the Mad Hatter? As long as my head is spinning while logic is turned on its head, I might as well do it where it's delightfully whimsical /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hobson]

and thought is was brilliant, especially since it matches what I've been thinking about the situation /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Received from New Zealand.

Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 2:01 PM
Subject: Fw: Bomb them with butter

Subject: Bomb them with butter, bribe them with hope.
A military response, particularly an attack on Afghanistan, is exactly what the terrorists want. It will strengthen and swell their small but fanatical ranks. Instead, bomb Afghanistan with butter, with rice, bread, clothing and medicine. It will cost less than conventional arms, poses no threat of US casualties and just might get the populace thinking that maybe the Taliban don't have the answers. After three years of drought and with starvation looming, let's offer the Afghani people the vision of a new future. One that includes full stomachs.

Bomb them with information. Video players and cassettes of world leaders, particularly Islamic leaders, condemning terrorism. Carpet the country with magazines and newspapers showing the horror of terrorism committed by their "guest". Blitz them with laptop computers and DVD players filled with a perspective that is denied them by their government. Saturation bombing with hope will mean that some of it gets through. Send so much that the Taliban can't collect and hide it all.

The Taliban are telling their people to prepare for Jihad. Instead, let's give the Afghani people their first good meal in years. Seeing your family fully fed and the prospect of stability in terms of food and a future is a powerful deterrent to martyrdom. All we ask in return is that they, as a people, agree to enter the civilized world.

That includes handing over terrorists in their midst. In responding to terrorism we need to do something different. Something unexpected. Something that addresses the root of the problem. We need to take away the well of despair, ignorance and brutality from which the Osama bin Laden's of the world water their gardens of terror.

*((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ((((((((((*

Please pass this along.

It is important that we learn to think in NEW ways. If we continue attacking in the old ways we will get the same old results. Look at what has been happening the middle east for thousands of years to see what we can expect if we attack with bombs and military force.

Do we want to live a life of fear as people in the middle east do?

[HeyYouNags]

My mom was a fairly poor kid during the depression. They raised chickens in the back yard to help feed the family. Her brothers worked all sorts of projects to keep things humming. She studied hard, and put herself through college.

AND SHE TURNED OUT TO BE A LIBERAL! Darn her to heck, she raised us kids to believe that some people really are less fortunate, and that it's a good thing to help. You would think, since we were in a nuclear family with a stay-at-home mom, she would have done a better job, but no! Her example to us was spending time volunteering time and money to poor people (of different races, no less!), driving folks who didn't have cars (no doubt because they were too lazy to work) to get subsidized medical care (course if they had jobs, they could have afforded regular medical care). Now she wastes valuable time working with the burgeoning ranks of brain injury patients, many of whom are just too danged lazy to work, although they blame it on vague medical conditions like loss of short term memory capability, or blindness, or loss of motor skills.

And my father, well, what can I say? His parents were liberals in the 20's. Even his mother had a college degree. Naturally he turned out wrong. No doubt the only reason he was doing civil rights legal work in the early 60's was because he was from such a priviledged background. I'm sure if he had had it a bit tougher he wouldn't have been so soft on lazy people.

My folks are a bit younger than Snowbird - they're 68 and 69. So maybe that age difference is enough to qualify them as a younger, softer, more foolish generation.

And I guess it's a generational thing that my cousins who were raised on a real live farm, and worked hard in the tobacco fields when they were young, grew up to hate farm life with a passion. Probably if my aunt (mom's sister) and my uncle had beaten them a little more, they would have turned out to be better people.

What a shame my siblings and I all grew up to be college-educated, self-supporting, tree-hugging pacifist liberal scum. I guess we aren't allowed to blame it on the bad example set by our permissive parents.

[wtywmn4]

Ahhhh, this thread is slightly beginning to head to a "down the hill" direction. There isn't one person here who doesn't have a thought or feeling about this. We need to be tolerant, please. I just hate it when we fuss!

Sorry, it's the mother instinct. Play nice children and all that /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

Having lived thru too many wars, and hoping never to see another, it looks like this may be one. I hope for all of our sakes, educated, tree huggin, save the whales, what's your sign?, that this to will pass. Being the proverbial optimist, am probably dead wrong.

Having watched the Discovery special, I think all of us need to regroup. We don't understand what motivates or drives them. We're looking for easy answers. There are none. We can't understand, with college educated people, why they would use that to kill us. For them, it seems, education is an end to achieve what they want. Not what we want, ie: better government, better health plans for their countries. We do not understand how, after living amongst us, they could then take out all these people??? Education in the democratic countries, has meant a step up, possibly a better life. When we finally get over this assumption, with the people we are dealing with, and the fact that we feel betrayed, maybe we will be better prepared to fight them.....

[Sweet Pea]

DMK for President! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Magnolia]

How bout Hobson for VP? And head of "armed" forces!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Snowbird]

That's all I've tried to say and do for the past two years. Yes, it's true most state elected officials are part of an old boys network. Their stock in trade is trying to smooth the waters and make no waves. That's why they got elected and staying elected becomes more important than what's right and good.

But, if you know the facts and you face them down and you have support you can win the day. It takes time and effort and usually very little reward except for you to know in your heart of hearts that it happened because you cared.

[hobson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
How bout Hobson for VP? And head of "armed" forces!

Ride it Like You Stole It...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Daydreaming of pizza-tipped missiles and croissant cannons...

[Heidi]

In your new capacity as head of the armed forces, Hobson, I do hope you'll exercise some restraint and hold off on the anchovy-pizza tipped missiles.

[HeyYouNags]

I wanna be a target! Me! Me!

[hobson]

Heidi, the very idea that I would let anchovies contaminate a perfectly useful food item is unthinkable, and frankly, offensive. Now, step back while I plot a course for these oatmeal carriers.

[Heidi]

Hobson, I am simply amazed by the lack of maturity and understanding of the anchovy coming from some posters on this BB...

I mentioned NO recipes so any association with yourself or others is simply a function of a guilty anti-anchovy conscience.

I am not an "anchovy monger" and no one need "fear" my predilection for tiny, salty fish..It is simply that of a patriotic consumer of anchovies taking exception to OUR country being targeted by an obvious trout-eater (et al) and recognizing that sometimes you have to lay some anchovy traps to make a pizza missile.

[N&B&T]

Listen here, hobson, I happen to be VERY pro-anchovy and I am NOT alone!! And even if I was, I wouldn't care, it's a matter of principle!! There is room in MY kitchen and on MY plate for ALL food items.

Just FYI, jihads and fatwas against non-offensive little fishes in salt are NOT what this country is all about, and if you don't want your palate contaminated, you can just leave!! Don't let the salt-shaker hit you on the way out!!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[hobson]

Oh, you can go ON about your stinky little fish, and your salt and the little fins and scales, but I can just tell you right now that there will BE NO ANCHOVIES included in my personal scheme for global military-culinary domination.

And DON'T EVEN start to whine and moan about pineapples. Anybody who thinks pineapples ought to go on a pizza - especially a strategic offensive pizza - is spoiling for trouble. GAWD, the impertinence!

[DMK]

but WHO will speak up for the baby quiches? Are they not too young to be sacrificed for their country?

[hobson]

Being the helpless, tasty little morsels that they are, I'm afraid the baby quiches will play a key role in this campaign to hors-d'oeuvre-ize the world.

[N&B&T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hobson:
Oh, you can go ON about your stinky little fish, and your salt and the little fins and scales, but I can just tell you right now that there will BE NO ANCHOVIES included in my personal scheme for global military-culinary domination.

And DON'T EVEN start to whine and moan about pineapples. Anybody who thinks pineapples ought to go on a pizza - especially a strategic offensive pizza - is spoiling for trouble. GAWD, the impertinence!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hobson, get your facts right--there ARE no "little fins and scales", the anchovies are FILETED, for heaven's sake! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And as for fruit, well, I may not agree with someone's pineapple, but I will defend to the death their right to core it!!

[Heidi]

We're clearly suffering from an inter-generational pizza impasse.

Back in my day, we were only too happy to enjoy a frozen pizza out of a box with three toppings. It's sad to think that the sacrifice made by my Pizza Hut generation has lead to a generation of whiny, mozarella-hugging, and complacent pizza-eaters who feel as entitled as Donald Trump to feta, prosciutto and escarole on every pizza.

DMK, please, what kind of culinary patriot are you to raise the relatively insignificant plight of the baby quiches at this historic time?

[Hillary Clinton]

But he has pledged the complete support of the Department of Health and Human Services, which includes the Food and Drug Administration, to ensure that the supply of anchovies, pineapples, and other tangy pizza toppings continues unabated in this time of crisis.

Congress has promised to appropriate additional funds, should a bail-out of Domino's become necessary.

An attempt was made to reach a bipartisan agreement on pizza toppings for Congress's lunch, but we were unable to reach consensus on thin and crispy versus original hand-tossed crust.

[dogchushu]

If you can't accept and appreciate the good old American pepperoni and extra cheese pizza then you are not a true patriotic citizen of this country and should GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM (except for Heidi, she's free to put Canadian bacon on hers). /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Louise]

There goes Congress again, discriminating against cheese filled crusts. Equal time I say, equal time for cheese filled crusts!!

[hobson]

Pearls before swine, I tell you.

Speaking of which, mining the hills with ham salad...

[hobson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
If you can't accept and appreciate the good old American pepperoni and extra cheese pizza then you are not a true patriotic citizen of this country and should GO BACK WHERE YOU CAME FROM (except for Heidi, she's free to put Canadian bacon on hers). /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Canadians! A donut shop on every corner - that's all THEY care about! That's the real menace!

[Heidi]

Hobson!

How can you question our loyalty, we Canadians who stand apron-to-apron with our American brethren in the kitchen? Who do you think will be providing the mayonaise-expertise on the ham salad?

This is the last time I ever venture on a reconaissance mission with you to A & P.

[N&B&T]

...bombarding the readers of this bb with images of irresistable and high-calorie food items. I'm very concerned that repeated mention of exotic pizzas, extra cheese, croissants, quiches, and especially ham salad sandwiches will provoke mass binging episodes among our membership, with grave long-term consequences for their riding and our sport.

Please exhibit some restraint. Not everyone can light a cigarette instead.

[Hillary Clinton]

They're outside now, lobbing mayonnaise-laden ham sandwiches and pepperoni calzones at every politician who dares set foot outside the building! My new silk dress is oozing melted mozzarella cheese!

They've called in Julia Child to try to reason with the rioters, and the Iron Chef for crowd control!

And what's that symbol on the terrorist's shirts? Could it be.... a maple leaf?

[N&B&T]

More fat-laden foods continue to be mentioned, namely donuts and mayonnaise! I know some of you will find it difficult, but I believe baby carrots are a more appropriate topic at this point in time.

[Sweet Pea]

Thank you! NP Fisher for standing up for those of us with asthma who cannot light up to squelch our food cravings!

[N&B&T]

I will dedicate my next smoke to you!

[suzy]

>>>I'm very concerned that repeated mention of exotic pizzas, extra cheese, croissants, quiches, and especially ham salad sandwiches will provoke mass binging episodes among our membership, with grave long-term consequences for their riding and
our sport.

I'm begging you -- Just don't post any images of these delicacies. It's bad enough being bombarded by the textual descriptions. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Alan Greenspan]

I, Alan "Didn't Think I Could Cut 'em Again" Greenspan will do WHATEVER is necessary to bolster the economy and save these patriotic underage quiches.

As for Hillary and her mozzarella soaked dress? As much as I love you darling, what is it with your family and stained clothing?

[hobson]

now back in my day, the people we now consider to be asthmatic, were just plain lazy, and wanting the rest of us to do all of the brownie-baking for them. They did not appreciate the value of home-made from scratch, and that's how Betty Crocker and the like came about.

[Heidi]

I am utterly disgusted by those who'd shrink in fear of the image of oozing mozarella and ham salad. Wake up and smell the calzone people!

Get off your complacent culinary butts and be proud that you live in a country where your forefathers, Aunt Jemima and Uncle Ben, cooked slavishly, so that you may enjoy ready-made pancakes and Wild Mushroom Rice - and the freedom to pass it off at dinner parties and pot luck dinners as your own!

[Hillary Clinton]

That young woman, who I might point out is from this younger generation of people who expect to get a head ---- no, wait, let me rephrase that...

At any rate, Bill has assured me that the stain on her dress was either ricotta cheese, or latte foam. The FBI never bothered to complete the DNA testing, which no doubt would have pointed the finger directly at the dairy industry. And therefore, the whole sordid incident never would have happened if people still kept their own cows in the city.

You follow my logic here, don't you Alan?

[Alan Greenspan]

As usual, Hillary, I am in awe of your wisdom...

And here I was thinking the problem was as simple as a complete failure of our urban dwellers to keep poultry in their apartments. This failure of American knowhow and ingenuity is clearly much more widespread than I first imagined, and obviously has widespread political repercussions!

Now I realize that many politicians keep poultry upstairs... wait... I'm sorry. That was "bats in their belfry". Never mind... I thought I had a potential solution.

[Kellybird]

I am sitting here, short-circuiting my keyboard with the tears that have been streaming down my face LMAO for the last half-hour. I would also like to say that DMK, heidi, and hobson are now required by law to adopt me /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A strange family indeed, but one united by our interest in helping one's fellow baby carrot and quische fulfill their destinies across the sea.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~KBird

[hobson]

You're a nice girl and all, Kellybird, especially since you live in the city of my misspent youth, Pittsburgh. But let's face it: adopted children are nothing more than competition for the ham salad and the gnocchi. What kind of parents do you have, from the generation that spawned Hungry-Man dinners or something? The quick-fix-let's-pawn our internet-orphan off on some pinko mayo-slinging liberal?

Which reminds me, what wine goes with veggie burgers?

[Hillary Clinton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Which reminds me, what wine goes with veggie burgers? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually start with a whine about how cold the burgers are, and then finish with a good rant about the inherent cruelties in the beef industry.

[beameup]

and instead of sending over F15's, we send KFC15's, armed with extra crispy. BAM!

[dogchushu]

I resent all the trivializing of food that's going on here! Don't you realize that prior generations had no fast food? Or even good food? My grandparents had to hunt and grow their own food. And they didn't have guns... they had to run after game and drag it down with their bare hands. And they didn't have garden hoes either, they had to scrape out holes in the earth with their fingernails to plant seeds! Then they didn't have ovens to cook their food. They had to burn it over an open flame or eat it cold. And they had no matches either. They had to rub two sticks together! We, the spoiled ones, have SUPERMARKETS and RESTAURANTS. How can we expect to amount to anything?

[Canter]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Midge]

Hobson, I always serve MD 20/20 with my veggie pizza, so I imagine it would work for veggie burgers.

I worry about the mental state of veggies made to imitate cows, though. Do you think we should get them some therapy? maybe the baby quiches could recommend someone.

[Heidi]

Hot off Reuters.

Hobson has chosen her chef d'equipe for the culinary-coup.

Not only does he not cower in the face of baby quiches, but he won't hesitate to nuke 'em - on high, 10 minutes, let stand for 2 minutes.

[This message was edited by heidi-ugh on Sep. 20, 2001 at 08:11 PM.]

[wtywmn4]

That's hysterical!!! You go girlfriend!!

You all may have hit on something. Food and tons of it!! Actually that was Weatherfords idea. Just think, tons of fatty foods, artery clogging, sugar laden starch!! They won't be able to even think of war, they will think sleep.......

[Magnolia]

Let us bomb them with Chips of Olestra... Then, while they are on the john, we move in with Splenda, causing the sweet tooths to retch with offense when they bite into the acrid falsification of sugary delight.
I have chosen my side. My favorite food du jour is the fattoush from the middle eastern deli... You italians with your pizza pies so greasy will not sway me....
Oh, and the greeks with their spanokopita...oooooooo, and Indian, and mexican... how can we not be at peace with our fellow world citizens tempting our pallette at every turn....
Maybe we are the great greasepit they claim us to be with our Mc Foods and other ucky things. And our sick fondness for baby quiche!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Magnolia]

My god, my post makes no sense whatsoever. I'm going to the Hairy Teeter to pick up some two for one Breyer's... for Hobsons war effort, of course... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[DMK]

to strike fear into the heart of terrorists everywhere...

Peeps

What did our forefathers DO without this invention?

[Magnolia]

OMG, PEEPS, DMK, you are a terrorist yourself!!!
The pink ones are especially cruel!

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[hobson]

It's a coup de peeps. Hobson is deposed by the conniving DMK and her sidekick General Tso.

[wtywmn4]

PEEPS?????????????

What a coupe!!!!!! Melting, sticking gumming up everything!

Voila! The perfect weapon! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The writer is a retired major, U.S. Marine Corps.

With untold thousands of Afghan refugees now entering Pakistan, our first move in the upcoming war should be to send the American military to take charge of the camps. We should then bombard these refugees with food, clothing, shelter, clean water and medical aid and send American Muslim clerics to minister to them.

Make it clear to them by our actions that, contrary to what their leaders tell them, they are not our enemy.

Planting seeds of doubt could make our task much easier.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This letter was from my local paper. Although he is not advocating sending Peeps, he does nonetheless support the DMK/Hobson methodology of battle.

Ride it Like You Stole It...

[Magnolia]

Hobson-
News Flash-
General Tso is out of commision. Someone put too much MSG on his chicken.

(No wonder Jane magazine thinks we have some food issues...)

Ride it Like You Stole It...