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View Full Version : Explain this Hunter position thing to me, please.



Velvet
Jan. 30, 2003, 07:27 AM
Okay, being an admitted DQ, I'm not super well versed in all things H/J. BUT, once upon a time I was an eventer and so I do have some jumping experience from that forum.

Can someone tell me why in hunter people are folded so much at the hips over itsy bitsy teeny weeny fences so that they look like they're laying on their horse's neck? The jumper riders don't even look that closed--unless they're over a huge oxer.

I'm confused. Is this a style over function thing? I mean, closing the hip is correct from what I know, but nearly laying on the horses neck? That just seems to be a bit of artifical and extreme.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[This message was edited by Velvet on Feb. 11, 2003 at 11:07 AM.]

Velvet
Jan. 30, 2003, 07:27 AM
Okay, being an admitted DQ, I'm not super well versed in all things H/J. BUT, once upon a time I was an eventer and so I do have some jumping experience from that forum.

Can someone tell me why in hunter people are folded so much at the hips over itsy bitsy teeny weeny fences so that they look like they're laying on their horse's neck? The jumper riders don't even look that closed--unless they're over a huge oxer.

I'm confused. Is this a style over function thing? I mean, closing the hip is correct from what I know, but nearly laying on the horses neck? That just seems to be a bit of artifical and extreme.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

[This message was edited by Velvet on Feb. 11, 2003 at 11:07 AM.]

Janet
Jan. 30, 2003, 07:49 AM
Hunters are supposed to jump "round".

Some riders are under the impression (and I don't knw whether there is any truth to it or not) that collapsing on the hors's neck makes the horse lower his head over the top of the jump, and look "rounder".

Velvet
Jan. 30, 2003, 08:10 AM
Ah, so there is supposed to be some function behind this thing then?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Anne
Jan. 30, 2003, 08:13 AM
In general it started because some very successful professionals have funky equitation. It works for them, and horses jump well for them. They have the strength to not interfere with a horse's jump, and in fact as Janet said usually get the best possible jump out of the horse.

Amateurs and juniors copy the "pose" with mixed results. It's usually not a conscious thing - no one really says oh I think I'll practice laying on my horse's neck today.

*****************************
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Small Change
Jan. 30, 2003, 08:18 AM
Okay, being an admitted H/J, I'm not super well versed in all things DQ. BUT, once upon a time I was on the dressage board and so I do have some Dressage from that forum.

Can someone tell me why in DQ land people are poo disturbing so much at the H/J forum over itsy bitsy teeny weeny details so that they look like they're becoming regulars here? The jumper riders don't worry that much--unless they're over a huge oxer.

I'm confused. Is this a dressage over hunter thing? I mean, poo disturbing is correct from what I know, but nearly becoming an H/J poster? That just seems to be a bit of artifical and extreme.

**Very, very, very tongue in cheek! I mean no harm, but I couldn't resist. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping -Julius Hare

Medievalist
Jan. 30, 2003, 08:24 AM
It looks so awful and it is SO hard to unlearn after being taught to ride that all my life. It took a year of screaming by my coach at me until I stopped. I still relapse from time to time, and it makes him crazy...when he starts yelling at me in English, I know that I'm in trouble. It got to where all the other students(who don't speak a word of English) learned what "Don't throw your upper body" meant http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

March 14th 2003. D(idi)-Day
aserejè ja de jè de jebe tu de jebere seibiunouva,
majavi an de bugui an de buididipi...I loff the ignorance.

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Velvet
Jan. 30, 2003, 08:29 AM
Small Change, this is an honest question. I only shake sticks at DQs and DQwannabes. I'm seriously wondering about this. It looks so funky when I see it and I don't remember seeing in when I was younger and idolized a lot of H/J riders. (Oh, and DQs and HPs have so much attitude in common, I can't see where any cross pollinating is required. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif )

Medievalist, I know I got back into a bit of jumping over some low x-country fences about 8 years or so ago and found that I was throwing myself at the fence and ending up in that position. It's a bit too easy to do, isn't it?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

DMK
Jan. 30, 2003, 08:50 AM
First and foremost, there are a lot of people that throw themselves up on the neck, pitch themselves at the base of the fence, and just otherwise do all sorts of things that do not help a horse have a nice jump.

It should be noted that if you are judging one of these rounds, and the horse still manages to put in 8 great fences, it can safely be assumed the horse is extremely talented. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But there is a small group of professionals that can make it look like a horse is knocking them out of the tack because the horse jumps so well, when in truth you could probably do your ironing on him, he's so flat. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But if you watch these riders in action you will notice that they are very quiet at the base of the fence, and their center of balance is exactly where it should be (instead of around the ears in the aforementioned example). This is critical since you can make or break a horse's jump at the base. You can't hardly get in their way at the top of the fence (assuming you don't yank their face off).

Of course all the great masses see are pictures of riders at the top of the fence, where it can be hard to tell the two types of riders apart. But it is pretty cool to watch the good ones at work. They do put the "show" back in the horse show! Why, it's almost high drama. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)

Velvet
Jan. 30, 2003, 09:08 AM
So, does this sort of position impact your scores? Isn't that judged too?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Janet
Jan. 30, 2003, 09:25 AM
Nope.

Rider position is not supposed to be scored in a hunter class.

jackson
Jan. 30, 2003, 09:28 AM
No the training divisions are not judged on any equitation. But I imagine there is some "horsemanship" in there. Trainers can only go in open classes. I think some shows have a special trainer only equitation class. It is pretty classic.

Question for you: Taking in to account leaning back pulling and spuring are all done at the same time during dressage, how does that make a horse move correctly?

(I have been to the WEG so I have seen real dressage, but never at anywhere in the US. And I know it is pretty rare in my area.)

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Dragoon
Jan. 30, 2003, 09:30 AM
And in some instances, the rider cannot help looking like that. Some horses actually do jump so round that maintaining "perfect" equitation is impossible.

"Keep your stick on the ice." (Red Green)

DMK
Jan. 30, 2003, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
So, does this sort of position impact your scores? Isn't that judged too?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh dear god, no! At least not in any class designated "hunter" or "jumper". As long as you and your mount don't part company, your position is not judged formally. "Equitation" is a whole 'nuther ball game. Then position is king.

Just as an FYI, a professional is eligible to enter any class not labeled "adult amateur" or Amatuer Owner" (excluding the more tricky issue of working students and the junior/childrens ranks).

"To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)

fleur
Jan. 30, 2003, 10:08 AM
I think a lot of people, regardless of inadvertantly copying the pros, also have this idea that the horse needs them OFF its back, which it does of course, but not to the extent that some people do it. It's easy to forget that the upward thrust of the horse jumping will "lift" you out of the saddle, if you are prepared for it, and you don't need to exaggeratedly go into halfseat--you just need to release and be steady in your leg.
Granted, I do this plenty of the time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*EMMA*
emmaspace (http://emma12384.tripod.com)

Sebastian
Jan. 30, 2003, 10:17 AM
Laying on the horses neck over a jump is -- in a word -- incorrect. As someone stated, many of the professionals don't worry about they're equitation and can influence trends. But, this is about as valid as saying we should all hunch our shoulders because Hap Hansen does. Hap Hansen gets away with riding that way, because he's HAP HANSEN. And, I know he does not teach his students to ride that way.

The modern jumping position was developed to allow the HORSE as much freedom as possible -- and therefore getting a better jumping performance from your horse. You may see photos of pros jumping VERY large fences that have closed their hip angle to the point where it looks as though they are laying on the horses neck, but if you look closer, most of them have their butt out behind them and their leg under them and are therefore in balence with their horses. The sheer physical force of jumping big jumps can momentarily throw a rider into a "bad" postion, but that's the trouble with photos, they only capture the moment, not the entire jump.

Laying on the horse's neck is something any decent H/J trainer should crucify us for...and I should know, as I've been crucified for that offence many times over the years. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Our job over a fence is basically to stay out of the way, and laying on the horses neck is definitly -- in the way. I read a great article several months ago by a German Dressage trainer (who's name, of course, escapes me at the moment) who likened a rider to a backpack. Imagine wearing a backpack and trying to climb a mountain -- only the backpack has a life of it's own and keeps moving around on your back throwing you off balance. This is what we are to the horse. I loved that metaphor and thought -- wow, that REALLY applies to jumping as well. It was a wonderful reminder of why we need to ride quietly and with finesse.

And, there you have it, once again Dressage improves our jumping! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rye
Jan. 30, 2003, 10:36 AM
It's what I call p3 (piss-poor position). I ride hunters and some riders tend to act like they are jumping a 5 foot fence when in reality its 2'6". As people learn and progress that p3 violation should go away, in theory!

Although I've seen some trainers with the most hidious form over fences I've ever seen.

TrakHack
Jan. 30, 2003, 10:41 AM
Velvet, you are causing the HPs to get their TS's and hairnets in a bundle!

However, this is coming from a DQ who doesn't wear spurs and who (gasp) rides ahead of the vertical at times! Take my bowler and beat me silly!

jackson
Jan. 30, 2003, 11:15 AM
Bowler?! I thought those were like so last century.

Most premature departures are pilot error.

TrakHack
Jan. 30, 2003, 11:18 AM
Well, Velvet wears one so I suppose they ARE last century (even two centuries ago, since she's ancient).

I wear my snappy Troxel Exeter with my Pikeur and Schumachers...

Smart Alec
Jan. 30, 2003, 11:29 AM
don't feed the trolls....or those that act troll-ish either! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Donuts. Is there anything they can't do?"
~Homer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Velvet
Jan. 30, 2003, 11:43 AM
I am NOT trolling. (Then again, if you feel I am I won't be able to convince you that my motives are otherwise--so go ahead and flame out. Trust me. I can take it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

In dressage we have a small percentage that is based on the riders skill. Considering that and comparing it to hunters, I was wondering if this is something that is just en vogue, or if it's effective. From what I remember in my youth (yes, Sister, 100 years ago) people didn't close the angle this deeply over fences. If you are being judged on it, and it's the new thing, I get it. If someone discovered that it suddenly helps horses over fences, I get that. If it's like dressage riders who see someone who is advanced riding around with long stirrups and then they do the same thing and end up barely holding on to the stirrups with their toes, it's wrong.

I wanted to know if it was right or wrong in function, and then if it was right or wrong (or important) in a stylistic way for the judging.

I'm seriously curious. It just looked like too much--based on what I remembered and I was wondering if it was akin to some of the things that happen in dressage as well.

Thanks all who have been offering thoughtful replies! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Pixie Dust
Jan. 30, 2003, 12:16 PM
I thought Velvet posed a legitimate question; I was wondering the same thing myself. Janet answered it well, and quite frankly, it has nothing to do with incorrect dressage techniques. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf

Janet
Jan. 30, 2003, 12:53 PM
Thanks, but I thiught DMK's answer was better than mine.

Pixie Dust
Jan. 30, 2003, 01:36 PM
LOL, yeah, but I always appreciate the short & sweet answer! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

fleur
Jan. 30, 2003, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rye:
I ride hunters and some riders tend to act like they are jumping a 5 foot fence when in reality its 2'6".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly what I was trying to get at. I love the term "P3" LOL!

*EMMA*
emmaspace (http://emma12384.tripod.com)

sss
Jan. 30, 2003, 03:20 PM
I think also that with ammies and juniors, the collapsing thing isn't necessarily planned; it just happens due to lack of muscle strength or whatever other involuntary reason!

lonewolf
Jan. 30, 2003, 03:21 PM
I second everything Sebastian said, and would like to add a bit more. There is a difference between riding with a light seat and quiet upper body (which encourages the horse to stay soft and round), and throwing oneself up the neck. Unfortunately, this is a distinction many riders have not yet managed to make. The correct position actually requires a great deal of strength and good basics. The problem is that many riders (and some trainers) are so focused on getting 'the look' for the show ring that they get into the perching, flopping position which is seen all too often. The light seat is supposed to show off a finished product -- a horse so well balanced and trained that it can respond to minimal aids, and a rider who can be effective without pumping and grinding. Unfortunately, many who ride tipping forward don't have the basics to ride in this position. (This last part was JMHO).

The pros do the 'laying on the neck' thing too, but they and their horses are so balanced and engaged that they can get away with it. If I were to imitate some of their positions I would probably get dumped on my head.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing."
--Robert Benchley

DMK
Jan. 30, 2003, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
LOL, yeah, but I always appreciate the short & sweet answer! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooooooh, safe to say there's NO danger of that happening with me! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Velvet, a 100 years ago when you were jumping, people tended to open up their horses more to a bigger fence. Just like in eventing, that practice tends to kill off those who made a regular practice of pitching themselves up the neck of their mounts at the base (sort of a Darwinian approach to jumping). Nowadays, at 2'6 or 3'0 with a substantially slower pace it is just mildly painful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)

Sebastian
Jan. 30, 2003, 04:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Velvet, a 100 years ago when you were jumping, people tended to open up their horses more to a bigger fence. Just like in eventing, that practice tends to kill off those who made a regular practice of pitching themselves up the neck of their mounts at the base (sort of a Darwinian approach to jumping). Nowadays, at 2'6 or 3'0 with a substantially slower pace it is just mildly painful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Seb

havaklu
Jan. 30, 2003, 06:10 PM
Don't chase Velvet away -

She's one of the few DQ's I like to come visit us - She can get a conversation going in her "innocent" DQ way... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

carribean
Jan. 30, 2003, 06:52 PM
I have the collapsing problem! Big time! And I try to stop sooo hard!!! But alas, I cannot...off to the lessons we go, off to the lessons we go.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Friends don't let friends have mullets."

creseida
Jan. 30, 2003, 08:57 PM
Because instead of allowing the horse to close their angles for them, they are jumping ahead, attempting to stay with the motion. Why? Because their base of support is non existent from perching with puppy paws, rather than riding. As soon as the jump comes, they fling themselves forward, with the inevitable result that their legs fly rearward. Since their legs are not underneath them supporting them and keeping them off of the horse's back, they wind up collapsing on the horse's necks.

It is too bad that the rider isn't judged in regular hunter rounds, because there are more than a few riders out there whose horrible position over fences really ruin an otherwise lovely picture. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
~Member of the *Horse Vans Rock* clique~

Sleepy
Jan. 31, 2003, 05:45 AM
What I want to know is why these horses don't stop? Because in my experience, the fastest way to create a stopper is to jump ahead. None of my old horses would have put up with this for 5 minutes.

Jsalem
Jan. 31, 2003, 06:38 AM
The rider's upper body needs to stay in balance over the horse's center of gravity. The hip angle closes in response to the horse's thrust over the fence. Having said that, the "collapse" you see so many times is the rider with a weak position. As Creseida mentioned, a rider must have a strong, solid base of support. The rider must also have a very disciplined upper body, so that they don't fling themselves at the jump or collapse in a heap on the neck.

Mary Wanless has some interesting books that deal with rider position. She's really Dressage oriented, but also has some great insight into jumping.

"The same coordinations which stablise the rider on the flat underpin the ability to set up a good approach in jumping, to be in balance over a fence, to recover after it and even to 'see a stride'"

Check her out.

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2003, 09:26 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif "The Darwinian approach to riding." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

That's a good one!

I think I used to watch so many jumpers who had come up through the hunter ranks that maybe I assumed that everyone rode that way. Maybe it's always been like this? Or is it that they've slowed things down a bit. I remember riding in some hunter shows (because back when I was younger I thought dressage was boring and just wanted to jump http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) a long time ago and I actually placed.

I remember thinking other people who did hunters all the time had a similar form to mine. Is it just old age and rose colored glasses? Or has it really changed?

(BTW, I love all the explanations. It really helps and it makes a LOT of sense. Similar to the "toe riding" in dressage. Thanks!)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Sebastian
Jan. 31, 2003, 09:49 AM
IMHO - your glasses are just fine Velvet. The gap between Hunters and Jumpers has widened A LOT over the years. Hunters have become VERY stylized, while Jumpers has retained a more "practical" (for lack of a better term) approach.

Part of the reason I have always preferred Jumpers... It's objective nature has allowed me to ride correctly, rather than cater to the whims of a judge.

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tin
Jan. 31, 2003, 11:33 AM
LMAO too funny http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I love this! Good explaination by DMK (big fan of K.I.S.S.- no not the face painting rockers) and thought lovely Velvet did a good and brave job of asking a question, no poo disturbing there!

Oh and I'm VERY impressed in Sister's knowledge of our staple of Ts's and hairnets though scared to death of being attacked by a bowler hat (which in my mind is an old mesh baseball cap reading "My wife said I had to give up bowling or she'd leave me. I miss my wife" worn by a big sweaty guy slugging a beer) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

~ Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once ~

Anyplace Farm
Jan. 31, 2003, 12:28 PM
I don't know, gang. I've seen the best hunter riders we have do it. I think it is really a 70's thing. Developed then, copied now.

Personally, I look at it this way, it works for them, they aren't going to change it. I don't think it is something they care about in terms of what other people think. Most of those guys learned how to ride on their own...it worked for them, they continued riding that way.

Olin has his own style, Rodney had his, Mark Leone and Ian Sillitch both had their own interesting styles over fences...its theirs, it works for them.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"When I started riding at 5, I had two titles: kid and rider. Thank God I’m still a rider."

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 31, 2003, 12:40 PM
Sleepy asks why the horses don't stop if the rider is jumping ahead...

Well.....I'm not sure the "laying on the neck" IS actually jumping ahead. I think it's more a stylistic thing, but the actual body balance is still over the center of the horse.

I'm not at ALL sure I can explain this at all, but I'll try...I'm an adult who really came to try my hand at hunter show riding late. And, I'm, uh, well endowed. When I went to jump at first, I naturally jumped ahead and up the horse's neck.

After a few times discovering then confirming that fence rails make lousy toothpicks, I learned NOT to jump ahead. BUT...I was sitting verrrry upright - which wasn't a "problem" but it also wan't a very pretty picture in the ring as it made the horse not look like it was giving a smooth jump.

So, my trainer, who is absolutely spot on in terms of turning out show riders, spent six months yelling at me to "lay down" over the fences. This did NOT mean jump ahead and put huge amounts of daylight between my butt and the saddle whilst swinging my legs back (which is how I interpreted it to start) I learned. Instead, it sort of means "kinda sqat with your butt out behind and your leg under you, keeping your center of gravity right over the horse's center, don't let the pommel of the saddle get in front of your belly button, get your upper body DOWN so you actually look just over your horse's forelock and between his ears like a horizon and either do a proper crest release of jump out of hand if you're strong enough."

So...I THINK it's an attemp to not sit up over the fence, but probably it doesn't often come with the balance centered. And, yes, it's waaay more bend than is actually needed for most courses - again, it's a fashion I suspect. But it's what "the look" is these days in many areas.

Don't know if this makes ANY sense, but that's the best I can do to figure it out.

Sleepy
Jan. 31, 2003, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But it's what "the look" is these days in many areas.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for your explanation, Hopeful Hunter. But it 'looks' awful.

I still think this whole look comes from having your stirrups 1-2 holes too long and having to fling yourself forward to catch up to the horse's jump.

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:01 PM
Now I was just out looking at the photos people are posting of their form and this one (I wish I could remember which person it was--they'll have to come out here and remind me) looks more like what I remember. Closed, but not laying down, and their leg is still under them.

It's not fair for me to ask you to critique someone else's photo--but doesn't this seem a bit less extreme? (BTW, the only other one I saw, in my quick viewing, that made me say "yep, that's it" was one of an eventer doing their stadium course--guess I"m an eventer at heart.)

jumping (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,1016091412,ic,Y/croppers.jpg)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:03 PM
Oops! That was Dreambig's picture! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:09 PM
Not sure if this will work -- and in this photo, I AM ahead as my horse took the small 2'3" oxer a bit big, but I'll be brave and say I'm guessing this is the laying on the neck of which we speak... Gina

TrakHack
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:15 PM
Sister's favorite jumping picture:

jackson
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:30 PM
Dream Big's picture is perfect. Mine is a little low and ducky to the left but not ahead of the motion or in any way interfering with the horse.

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:35 PM
hmm.....maybe THIS attached the photo?

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:37 PM
Oh, and Dream Big is jumping the way I only dream of being able to...and Jackson's horse is soooo cute (and her legs so tight!)...*sigh* maybe someday.....

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:37 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I love that picture, too, Sister! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Whatever happened to those amazing Puissance classes? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Tough on the horses, I know, but boy were they thrilling and they happened all over the place!

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:42 PM
Here's a eventer who looks rock solid and yet following their horse.

No idea who...but nice pic. (http://www.janhare.com/hobiexccopt.jpg)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Pixie Dust
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:50 PM
I was thinking more of Jackson's, although her style is more moderate, but it is more of a ducking with the butt in the air. HH, you just are jumping ahead, which is bound to happen when working with a greenie.

That Kathy Kusner is a true athlete!

Here is my best jumping picture on my greenie, but it's only 2'6". I have since purchased better fitting breeches & boots!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2003, 01:54 PM
I went hunting and found some jumpers who are awesome!

melanie smith (http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/gfx/sjhf_inductees/m_smith_taylor2.jpg)

My favorite--Gem Twist and Greg Best (a perfect picture--what a fence)!

Seoul Olympics (http://www.gemtwist.com/GemSeoul.jpg)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Velvet
Jan. 31, 2003, 02:05 PM
Have you ever noticed how some riders do funny things with their mouth when they jump? Well, just take a look at some of the horses! I used to have one that pursed his lips up a bit and I've seen others do it as well. Then there are the riders with such focus that theirs nearly no expression on their face--and horses who like that one jumping the Puissance wall who look like it's just another day at the office. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

jackson
Jan. 31, 2003, 02:08 PM
Thank you HH. That was her first show. She was a clients baby.

Bgoosewood I would say you look a bit left behind in the air from the tension on the bit. Your horse is smiling at us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Pixie Dust
Jan. 31, 2003, 02:10 PM
meow!

I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf

triggerfoot
Jan. 31, 2003, 02:18 PM
jackson... i disagree with your assesment of bgoosewood. looks like a nice steady soft contact, not the same thing as leaning on the bit.

i think in the hunters (i waas never any good at hunters, so my opinion probly means diddly) showing a big release and a loopy doo rein is proving to the judge that your horse is talented enough to jump without your help. i don't think horses prefer to be abandoned, mine certainly doesn't. if i don't keep contact in the air he lands in a heap.

**horsie art (http://php.indiana.edu/~juschers/art.htm)**

Sebastian
Jan. 31, 2003, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
meow!

_I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Girl who is very twisted in air and looking at the dirt...should not criticize...

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jackson
Jan. 31, 2003, 02:31 PM
I admitted my problem, which is not twisting, and you have no idea where I am looking. I thought this whole thread was about leaning on the neck/jumping ahead and correct position. Well leaning back isnt correct either. And I do not know, maybe she had a roll back to the next fence. Sure some horses also need to be picked up over the fence, but the correctness of that is another thread for another day.

Most premature departures are pilot error.

DCRiotGrrl
Jan. 31, 2003, 02:37 PM
I know this probably isn't the time or the place for this, but I must say: Every time I see one of Dream Big's photos, I'm amazed. She always looks awesome. She's got such beautiful and workmanlike eq. I would give my right arm to ride like her and look like her on a horse.

Sorry, just had to get that in http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*************************
DCRiotGrrl

DMK
Jan. 31, 2003, 03:20 PM
Jumping up the neck and just over-riding the fence in general... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)

DMK
Jan. 31, 2003, 03:21 PM
Actually waiting for the horse...

"To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)

DMK
Jan. 31, 2003, 03:22 PM
oh yea, I just dream about riding this well...

"To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could out-wit you! I've worn dresses with higher IQ's, but you think you're an intellectual, don't you ape?" -Wanda (Jamie Lee Curtis)

LiveToRide
Jan. 31, 2003, 03:31 PM
i dont really have anything to say on this topic cept that WOW Dream big, that pic is awesome! i wish i looked half as good as that over a fence!! your base of support is rock solid, and ur legs arent even moving! AGH! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It's just so confusing!!!!

Pixie Dust
Jan. 31, 2003, 03:57 PM
I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I am talking about a style which is very popular among pro's that I just don't care for. I just used the pictures that were already posted. I realize that these are excellent riders, MUCH better than me, but I still don't like the style. I'm looking at a picture of very successful hunter trainer, Lainie Wimberly in PH. She is obviously extremely talented/successfull/good, but she shows hunter in this jacked up looking position because it is a popular style. I'm not saying I don't think she is a GREAT rider and I have a great deal of respect for her, but I still don't like her "style". Plain and simple. I'm sorry if my opinion offends anyone, that is not my intention. But the explanation makes sense, to show off the horse's bascule. I didn't know that before.

I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf

RodeoHunter
Jan. 31, 2003, 05:16 PM
Classic example of ducking. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have been working on it (that was 4 years ago) and to anyone who has this problem, try jumping without stirrups or reins, as long as you trust your horse! It has helped me soo much. But in panicky situations I totally revert back to collapsing. grrrrr.

DreamBigEq - you have awesome equitation!

**Member of the Ocularly Challenged Equine Support Group**

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 31, 2003, 05:47 PM
DMK -- but who cares with that kind of a jump? NICE horse!

Velvet
Feb. 3, 2003, 07:53 AM
DMK, who's the rider you like so well you wish you could ride like them?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

7/8
Feb. 3, 2003, 08:13 AM
DMK, that is a gorgeous Warmblood in that Culpeper picture. Holsteiner or Hanovarian?

good booie
Feb. 3, 2003, 08:52 AM
DMK

Robbie is such a nice horse! How come you don't show him anymore???

Love my Quarter Horse!

GA Clique!!!

SGray
Feb. 7, 2003, 10:46 AM
well - I just went to Dublin's webpage - looked at her horse pics and must say that they show what I consider to be what riders should be striving for BALANCED WITH THE HORSE and STAYING WITH THE HORSE'S CENTER OF GRAVITY

see http://community.webshots.com/album/12289297yVJmZuGGpk

low jumps, high jumps, different horses, it's all the same - soft following hands, rider staying out of the horse's way

[This message was edited by SGray on Feb. 07, 2003 at 02:12 PM.]

jackson
Feb. 7, 2003, 10:58 AM
WOW SGray havent seen pics like that in so long! That was the style then just like forward forwad forward is the style now. I think we shoud let this thread rest. Somehow a DQ got us to turn against eachother. lol http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Velvet
Feb. 7, 2003, 11:25 AM
I don't think you can blame me for any bad feelings. I was asking a simple question. No trolling, no matter what someone out here tried to imply.

I was curious because it was very different from what I remember seeing when I was younger and wanted to know why it was different. Some people have come out here and given me some really good explanations.

It's always interesting to know where trends come from; if they are based in new knowledge that improves things, or if they are just something that works the same but looks different and judges decide they want to see it.

It's all interesting.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

JRG
Feb. 7, 2003, 12:17 PM
This thread is very timely for me. Lately my horse has been launching me out of the tack. So yesterday I tried a number of ways to try to get me to be more connected with my horse. I learned two very important things:

1) My horse is a complete saint. By then end of my ride of "fiddling" with different ways of staying close to the saddle and not jumping ahead, he was patient enough to let me figure it out.

2) What worked for me was, Riding to the fence holding the reins in one hand and holding the pommel so that two fingers could hook onto it with the other. When I jumped, my hand being in that position prevented me from moving foward of the pommel and enough range to give with the other.

So after a few more days of doing this, I am hoping I can find my horse under me more often then not lately.

Policy of Truth
Feb. 7, 2003, 01:14 PM
At the barn I just left, I saw ducking by a lot of the riders.

When I inquired as to why this was done, instead of waiting for the horse, they all gave me the same answer: Their trainer had informed them that by really stretching over the horses' neck, you encouraged them to use their neck over the jump.

I had never heard of such, er, a thing. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Have I missed some important information along the way? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[This message was edited by pacificsolo on Feb. 07, 2003 at 04:26 PM.]

DMK
Feb. 7, 2003, 04:39 PM
Good Booie - Robbie isn't retired, but for various reasons neither of us is in the ring these days. One day. Eventually. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Or so I keep telling myself...

Velvet, that rider with classic style (which he maintains over the big sticks too) is a Canadian rider by the name of Harold Chopping. One of the most classical riders out there since Michael Matz left the scene, if you ask me.

Dearest 7/8: Bite Me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Whassamatta? Can't you tell a Sam Savitt-like TB when you see one? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein

Policy of Truth
Feb. 7, 2003, 06:17 PM
"Velvet, that rider with classic style (which he maintains over the big sticks too) is a Canadian rider by the name of Harold Chopping. One of the most classical riders out there since Michael Matz left the scene, if you ask me"

And SOOOO nice to just gawk...I mean look...at http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I agree that he is very classical in his style. I'd love to believe that I'll get there someday http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

GreystoneKC
Feb. 7, 2003, 07:17 PM
I know all too well about this collapsing position thing. When I was showing my Jr/AO Hunter, I used to do it all the time. It wasn't something that I was taught, just a style I developed over time. My horse had a HUGE, amazing jump and I would sit still to the base of the jump and then spur off the ground and do the whole "throw the reins away and make it look like he was doing it all by himself" thing. It worked enough I guess cause he won a lot. Doing Eq on him was tough because of his jump, even when I was trying hard not to duck or jump ahead.

After I turned pro though, and started teaching kids, I worked really hard on not doing it any more on my ponies. My kids always watch me and look up to me and I don't want them thinking it's ok, style or not. It's one thing to have them giving a big release so as not to interfere with the pony's mouth, but learning to jump ahead - nah!

I attempted to attach 4 little pictures, but I don't know if it is going to work or not. One is me when I first started doing Childrens Horses at 11 and I had good eq, then 2 are of me and my Junior horse when I was "stylish", and the last one is me on one of my greenie ponies trying to be better!

diKecnadnuS
Feb. 7, 2003, 09:32 PM
I developed the bad habbit of collapsing in the air when i stopped having lessons for about 4 years and began teaching myself from watching others, watching clinics, reading books, and watching videos. it was VERY important to me to be a non-abusive rider and stay out of the horse's way as much as possible...i didn't realize lots of the things i thought to help my horse were actually interfering with him until 4 years ago...i'm trying to break the bad habbits...but, once you start...it is VERY hard to end.

My trainer, Tackpud, told me last winter at a show..."ride your pony like I ride him...but, don't look like I look. I've been riding 20-25 years longer then you, and have the strength to flop around and not interfere with him...you don't--thus you have to work on holding your position and being effective by doing things CORRECTLY"

It's very easy to develop bad habbits with riding, especially when showing a lot (you don't have the time to focus on lessons and improving your basics and position) because you tend to be trying to perfect the hunter rounds rather then worrying about your eq--just my experience at least.

jvanrens
Feb. 8, 2003, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
"Velvet, that rider with classic style (which he maintains over the big sticks too) is a Canadian rider by the name of Harold Chopping. One of the most classical riders out there since Michael Matz left the scene, if you ask me"

And SOOOO nice to just gawk...I mean look...at http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I agree that he is very classical in his style. I'd love to believe that I'll get there someday http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't remember alot about his riding style, since it's been a while since I last saw him ride, but judging from that picture I could only wish to ride half as well! I do remember gawk... er, looking at him at the Royal in Toronto one year when he was grabbing a late night snack with Ian Millar in the barn eatery... hmmm, we really need a drooling smiley http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Jo

*** Remember that eagles may soar, but weasels very seldomly get sucked into jet engines ***

OnMyHonors
Feb. 8, 2003, 07:58 AM
Hi PacificSolo! hehe, I tried to respond to you on my thing about Warmbloods, but they closed my topic... tear*! I put it in the breeding section...I was thinking of doing that when I posted, but for some reason I decided that because I'm a hunter asking it, I can put it in the hunter/jumper section!! I'm so smart!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Smart Alec
Feb. 8, 2003, 10:02 AM
"No trolling, no matter what someone out here tried to imply."

I was the one who thought you were trolling. When you posted this, you had also had another ? thread regarding hunters (can't remember which one now). The first thread I didn't think anything of it, but when I read your initial post here, I took it as not sincere, as well as lumping all hunter riders in one category. I apologize that I was wrong.
Personally, I am a fan of hunters/jumpers/eventing/and dressage. I get a little miffed when people put down or look down at other disciplines, particularly when they have never tried it. That's what I took your first post as...sorry for my mistake. :

"Donuts. Is there anything they can't do?"
~Homer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GreystoneKC
Feb. 8, 2003, 10:42 AM
Hey guys, I am new to these boards. I keep posting and reading, but there are some things I just don't get. What is Trolling? What or who are the DQ's, or whatever that is? And all the cliques.... is that a joke? Just curious...

asterix
Feb. 8, 2003, 01:33 PM
Greystone, most of your questions are answered in the FAQ section (see the bottom topics from the main page of the BB)...
DQs are dressage queens -- largely a tongue-in-cheek name they give themselves. Cliques are often self-deprecating, too, and you "join" one just by deciding you belong and putting it in your sig line.
Trolling is showing up on a board and posting something controversial (or idiotic, as the case might be) just to get people hopping up and down and upset. Your classic troll takes a "fake" name so s/he cannot be identified as a known bb member. "Feeding the trolls" means coming back and continuing the conversation/strife, instead of ignoring it.
Just for the record, in this case Velvet is NOT a fake name, and she wasn't trying to cause trouble, just asking a question many of us non-hunter riders, or ex-hunter riders, secretly wanted to ask ourselves.
Take a look at the FAQs, and don't be afraid to ask more questions!

Flashy Gray
Feb. 8, 2003, 01:45 PM
Hey Velvet, why don't you change the topic header?

I don't mind the thread, I suspect some people are having a good time and are learning something by replying and discussing the issue you raised, etc.

Plus, Velvet, you are a good sport - very witty, and I pretty much always enjoy your posts.

But everytime I look at this thread topic name I want to go over to the Dressage board and post a topic such as:

"Explain this Dressage (bouncing all over while simultaneously kicking, whipping and pulling the horse's face) position thing to me, please."

I guess I am just a little sensitive today.

Velvet
Feb. 10, 2003, 06:59 AM
I'm not sure what else I could call this. Any ideas?

Wouldn't want it to be inflammatory! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I love the "do as I say and not as I do" comments trainers use. Heck, I've used it! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I think every person finds something that works for them--their build, personality, the horse they're riding, etc. The problem is that when you are in the spotlight (as an instructor or a competitor who wins) everyone thinks that emulating your style of riding will make them better riders. It's funny that it seems to happen in all riding sports (well, probably all sports).

I don't see a problem with it, as long as people have correct foundations and really are working with the horse and making him happier and a better competitor. It's when it's just a bad habit and that becomes the rider's excuse that it's a bad thing. I mean, shouldn't the instructor work at staying correct?

Just a thought--after reading some of the recent threads.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

rileyt
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:23 AM
My theory:

As hunters have moved more and more away from "safe hunt horses" and more towards "zillion dollar show horses", the top hunters are increasingly jumping ROUND ROUND ROUND... ala Rox Dene and her back-cracking.

On a really round horse, like Rox Dene, the rider has to fold at the hips MUCH more than on a flatter horse. This isn't jumping ahead, or collapsing, or ducking... its necessary.

I think, some of the ducking we see today is caused by people riding flatter, more average jumpers, and trying to convince the judge that their horse is rocketing them out of the saddle and they NEED to fold that much to keep up.

It may not be that conscious... but I think people look at how far bent some of the top riders are (on top back-cracking horses), and emulate them... though that much folding isn't necessary on their flat jumping hunter.

Just my theory.

Half of Riding is 30% mental ... no wonder there are so many bad riders http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Velvet
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:32 AM
But that would imply that the top jumping horses (open jumpers) would require their riders close their hip angle even more, and this is often not the case. Look at those pictures I posted of Melanie and Greg.

Also, I had an incredibly flat jumper for an eventer, and I'm long waisted, so I know that I always felt I was playing catch up on him and would rather have gotten ahead than worried about leaving behind, but my instructors were always after me about the fact that getting ahead is more dangerous on a x-country course.

So, I wouldn't agree that a flat jumper requires you to make less of an effort--I would think it would take a bit more, depending on the type and size of fence you're jumping.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

findeight
Feb. 10, 2003, 08:24 AM
I actually had this and many similar threads in mind as I watched the hunters in the pro classes at WEF over some substantial fences.

Most of the top pros do keep the hip angle a bit more closed and sit only lightly between the fences. This may well be different from "back when" and the outside courses that go up or down hills or cover rough ground when a more upright posture and deeper seat would be safer and more effective. BUT it IS extremely pretty in the manicured environment of today's show arenas and allows the horse to really show off. None of these riders really led with the shoulder either, just a more closed hip angle with everything in balance and proper weight in the heels. Only for a split second at the apex of the biggest oxers did I notice what you see in the photos many like to dissect-just that one instant when the horse really cracks in half over the top....and if the rider is making it look like that is what's happening good for them-their job is making that horse look good.

I saw the exact same riders mounted on green or misbehaving horses adopt a more "correct" posture to get the job done.

A trip over to the international ring and the FEI class revealed, at least to my eyes, many unorthodox rider positions over the top by big name riders.

Pictures really don't tell the whole story.

This is not to say that there are not inept trainers and riders that emmulate something they think they see instead of striving for effective riding. I've seen plenty of ducking and neck laying over teensy weensy fences praised by trainers, but it's not everybody in the Hunter industry.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

jackson
Feb. 10, 2003, 09:48 AM
Hey Flashy Gray: I would post that if I were you!!!!!!!!!! LOL That was my question to her in the beginning!

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Sebastian
Feb. 10, 2003, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Velvet:
But that would imply that the top jumping horses (open jumpers) would require their riders close their hip angle even more, and this is often not the case. Look at those pictures I posted of Melanie and Greg.

Also, I had an incredibly flat jumper for an eventer, and I'm long waisted, so I know that I always felt I was playing catch up on him and would rather have gotten ahead than worried about leaving behind, but my instructors were always after me about the fact that getting ahead is more dangerous on a x-country course.

So, I wouldn't agree that a flat jumper requires you to make less of an effort--I would think it would take a bit more, depending on the type and size of fence you're jumping.

_ It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Jumpers tend to have a bit "flatter" jump than Hunters. Most back-cracking hunters would be unrideable over jumps that are 5' tall and 6' wide. They would simply pop their rider right off their back. Beth Underhill's horse, Altair, is a good example of what can happen when a horse is "too round" in jumpers. I watched him pop her out of the tack on several occasions merely because when he made a big effort it created soooo much force that she couldn't physically sit the jump. And, she's a wonderful rider...and he's an AWESOME horse...

The extrememely round horse is desireable in Hunters because -- it's pretty. And, when the round horse jumps, he tends to stretch his nose down between his feet, so in order to follow and give a proper release, the rider must sometimes break over in an extreme manner -- particularly over larger jumps.

A good jumper tends to have a more upright carriage and a slightly flatter jump -- hence, they are a bit easier to stay with...

I've also had lots of fun and interesting discussions with my friends who event. And, the one thing we discovered that makes eventing and H/J soooo different, is that eventers are jumping SOLID objects, while H/J horses jump fences that fall down. Therefore, the vast differences in style, approach and what constitutes a "desireable" horse...

I think the "don't jump ahead" is truely paramount in eventing because if your horse refuses -- you're going to hit a solid wall, etc. I think the safety factor plays heavily into the adjustment in position, making things quite different. Also, if you jump ahead, throwing your horse forward into the jump, you can easily flip your horse over a solid obstacle, where as we will just pull a rail...

JMHO
Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

triggerfoot
Feb. 10, 2003, 01:09 PM
physicist chiming in...

i think there is a practical purpose to the jolly jump-up, as has been said before, but I'm going to attempt to prove it (yikes!)

when the horse is in flight, his center of mass follows an arc over the jump. this arc is well-defined and absolutely fixed, that is, his center of mass will follow exactly the same path (when airborne) no matter what weird contortions he and his rider do.

however, by changing how he holds his legs, and where the rider puts her body, the center of mass will move with respect to the horse not with respect to the ground. a classic example of this used in many freshman physics classes is the fulsome-flop used in pole vaulting. micheal jordan also gets "hang-time" using this simple fact of motion.

i'm going to attach a cheesy drawing of micheal jordan. top picture is the arc traced by his center of mass. middle picture is how he changes the location of his center of mass by moving his arms and legs (note position of center of mass (red dot) with respect to his head). the bottom picture is micheal jordan jumping in the arc.

the picture on the right illustrates how by scrunching up his body, micheal jordan is able to put his center of mass in the same place with a lot less effort than if he dangled his legs down (blue lines show just how much less effort it takes when he's scrunched up).

hunter riders can achieve the opposite thing by ducking down on their horses. they move the center of mass down with respect to the horse, so the horse has to try harder (i.e. jerk his knees up more) to follow the same arc. in the picture of the horses, note the center of mass is at the same height for both horses, but the horse on the right is able to clear a bigger jump, or to complete the micheal jordan analogy, he can jumpt o the same hieght with his body using less effort. of course this is very exaggerated in my cheesy cartoon.

arg!! trying again to get the image up

**horsie art (http://php.indiana.edu/~juschers/art.htm)**

[This message was edited by triggerfoot on Feb. 10, 2003 at 04:18 PM.]

[This message was edited by triggerfoot on Feb. 10, 2003 at 04:19 PM.]

nichole86
Feb. 10, 2003, 01:42 PM
Hey! I tried reading everyone's comment on this..and there's alot of different opinions which i guess helps the person. But my PERSONAL opion is this: Although some people do actually LAY on the horse's neck,which isn't right, it really would make since to lean down like that. To me it would seem that by "bending at the hips" you are more going with the horse over a fence, while it would seem like you would be somehow affecting the horse just sitting up there while he was trying to smoothly glide through the air. Some one,I think it was someone named Sebastian, said something about a metaphor of it being like us wearing a backpack...and i guess that about sums it up!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GreystoneKC
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:32 PM
I once said in a post that I was attaching pics, but they didn't work so I thought I'd try again in separate posts. I thought they might interest you Velvet.
This is me on my Childrens Hunter horse in '91. I used to try really hard to have nice eq back then...

GreystoneKC
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:35 PM
Then I got my Junior Hunter... And decided to learn "style".... at this point I was still in Juniors and really worked hard to show off his jump...

GreystoneKC
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:36 PM
By the time we did A/O's, life just got so comfortable, I decided it was ok to just take a nap up there... Who'd ever notice?

GreystoneKC
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:39 PM
Now with all my kids watching and trying to do as I say AND do as I DO, I'm trying to tame my comfy habits with riding all my ponies. I know, I know, not great, but it's better than the last two!!!

DMK
Feb. 10, 2003, 07:46 PM
Didja ever wake up from those naps greystone? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein

GreystoneKC
Feb. 10, 2003, 08:03 PM
Yeah, right after I chipped! I always rode like crap at Devon!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif But my horsie didn't mind.

Jane
Feb. 10, 2003, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GreystoneKC:
By the time we did A/O's, life just got so comfortable, I decided it was ok to just take a nap up there... Who'd ever notice?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTF!!

"I loathe being annoyed. It makes me feel angry and malicious" -- Lestat de Lioncourt

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2003, 08:04 AM
I do have to admit that GreystoneKC looks very comfortable in that position. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (Although I do prefer the first picture.)

Oh, and as for closing the hip (which was brought up by Nichole), I think that you can still close the hip and be in balance without closing it so far you look like you're laying on the horses neck and napping...ala GreystoneKC. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif (Just kidding, GreystoneKC, you don't look asleep--just very, very relaxed. Hey, maybe that's the point I've been missing!)

Now, let me take this to an even further extreme for S&Gs. How about someone making a neck strap that people can use to attach a chest strap to and they can safely and comfortable lie across the horses neck the entire time and only wake up long enough to steer between fences??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif *kidding!!* Just thought the whole sleeping thing was a pretty entertaining concept. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2003, 08:06 AM
On a more serious note are hunters now jumping in a more extreme style. I mean, is the bascule so round it isn't natural? Or are the horses truly using a style they would on their own?

Hey, I'm still learning this whole hunter thing. I'm really curious. I see similarities between it and dressage over the years. It's very intriguing.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

DMK
Feb. 11, 2003, 08:15 AM
well, most horses wouldn't jump a course or much of anything on their own... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But I would have to say that excessive bascule would not exactly be a relaxing fun day to spend out in the hunt field. Neither would that sloooow across the top jump be all that much fun (you would get left behind). But very few disciplines - reining, cutting, western pleasure, dressage, three day, combined driving, hunters, jumpers, gaited horses - resemble their original purpose.

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein

baymare
Feb. 11, 2003, 09:40 AM
NOBODY "LAYS" ON THE HORSES NECK!!!! MANY "LIE" ON THE HORSES NECK!!!!

Phew. Now that that's out of my system, I feel better. This is at least our tenth re-hash of this same topic, but my feelings haven't changed. It's just plain bad riding, no matter what the discipline, because it is affected and functionless.

DMK
Feb. 11, 2003, 09:48 AM
Hmmmph. I say bad riding deserves bad grammar. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." Albert Einstein

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2003, 09:53 AM
Lay: a : to bring against or into contact with something b : to put or set down c : to place for rest or sleep

Lie: to be or to stay at rest in a horizontal position : be prostrate : REST, RECLINE &lt;lie motionless&gt; &lt;lie asleep&gt; b : to assume a horizontal position -- often used with down c archaic : to reside temporarily

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(You're right, though. You can place or lay an object. And you lie down to sleep. But in this case, which is it? Are you active or passive? Asleep or awake? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Lets defer to DMK. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

jackson
Feb. 11, 2003, 10:54 AM
Greystone you are hillarious. I love your horses! I cant believe your childrens hunter jumped like that. You must of slapped some tack hard. I like your napping picture. lol You just lied there. Or would that mean you werent really there since you were lieing? You may of just been laying there for a few in the cat stretch like position for a cat nap. Good god does it really matter? DQ's go back to the board from which you came! Can we put an end to this thread or can the bb moderators do so?

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Janet
Feb. 11, 2003, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> On a more serious note are hunters now jumping in a more extreme style. I mean, is the bascule so round it isn't natural? Or are the horses truly using a style they would on their own? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then- most top hunters were TBs or TB-like. Their natural jumpig style tends to be flatter.

Now - most top hunters are WB or WB-like. Their natural jumpig style tends to be rounder.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Velvet
Feb. 11, 2003, 11:26 AM
I resent that remark! Baymare is NOT a DQ!

Besides, why kill a thread that has been so informational? What in the world do you, Jackson, have against this discussion?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

GreystoneKC
Feb. 11, 2003, 12:20 PM
Personally, I like this thread. I've always thought this was an interesting topic and it's nice to see so many sides of it: the ones who hate it and think it's bad horsemanship, the ones who understand the function for pros, but don't think it's neccessarily good, and the ones who think it's fine either way.

Anyway, thanks to those who said nice things about my horsie. Roy, my childrens horse, did kiss some serious arse... he taught me how to hang on early...good thing too or I never would have stayed on my junior horse. No matter how relaxed I look LYING (oh, whatever!!!!), he had/has one hell of a jump!

Anyplace Farm
Feb. 11, 2003, 12:27 PM
She'll kill me if she sees I posted this, but, is this considered 'lying on the neck'? If so, maybe there's something wrong w/me.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"When I started riding at 5, I had two titles: kid and rider. Thank God I’m still a rider."

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

Pixie Dust
Feb. 11, 2003, 12:39 PM
Not really, well, not in my opinion. She's a tiny girl on a huge horse. I think her leg looks pretty darn good.

I see two common styles. One is the butt high in the air, and the body low (ducking) comon with pros, and I don't believe it interferes with the horse at all, anymore than I believe it helps lift the bascule. Then there is the lay across the withers like a rocket about to take off....and that appears to be more of a young rider's style (and this is the more dangerous style IMO and more likely to actually interfere with the horse.)

I do not smirk. But if I did, this would be a good opportunity. - Worf

Sleepy
Feb. 11, 2003, 12:39 PM
I think that is a VERY nice photo, Anyplace. The back could be flatter but the leg angles are correct, stirrups the right length and she's not ahead of the withers.

I still say a good part of the problem with some of these riders is WAAAAAY too long stirrups.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

Velvet
Feb. 12, 2003, 07:35 AM
Wouldn't the problem with stirrups that are too long be that they are left behind because their butt is stuck to the saddle? So, do you mean that they are falling on the horses neck and playing catch up with their upper body, or falling across the neck because they have no base of support?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

baymare
Feb. 12, 2003, 09:45 AM
Not even close. I (in partnership with the original baymare) am probably the only person you know to break 100 in the dressage phase of a training level event. But that's another thread...

To clarify: Lying on the neck and ducking are not the same thing. Closing the hip angle more than the thrust of the jump closes it for you is ducking; one can "duck" routinely and still have a solid lower leg and basically secure position.

The "hunter extreme" position (aka "death wish" position) involves not so much closing the hip angle as waving the buttocks (fave George Morris word) in the air like Old Glory, letting the lower leg swing back and heel come up (usually due to riding with stirrups inappropriately long for jumping), there by dumping the rider's weight on the horses neck (LYING) in an incredibly unbalanced, insecure, and inefficient position. And, let me add, UGLY. My personal riding aesthetic revolves around the old form follows function thing, and this "new" style of hunter riding is, to me, really ghastly.

And I never lose sight of the fact that 1) If that position was actually employed in the hunt field, horse and rider would part company at the first jump over even moderate terrain, and 2) Those back-cracking, knee-jerking over-jumpers that win all the prizes in the showring would be absolute torture to hunt. I know I am just an old-fashioned crank, but I still yearn for the connection between a real hunter and a show hunter to be apparent on some level, somewhere, anywhere.

Whew. Soapbox available now, if you want it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

jackson
Feb. 12, 2003, 09:49 AM
Anyplace, that pic looks fine to me!

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Velvet
Feb. 12, 2003, 10:33 AM
Yes, baymare, you and I both know you are not a DQ. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (And for some unknown reason you don't seem to want to become one. Hmmmm...is that because you are "smarter than the average bear?" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

Does anyone know where this whole change in position started? Was there one person? Or many? Around what year did it change? Is it a 90s thing?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

baymare
Feb. 12, 2003, 10:51 AM
Oy. This will probably get me in a lot of trouble.

I think it started with the advent of the crest release. All of a sudden, riders had the opportunity to discover how much easier it was to lean on the horses neck instead of developing a position that was solid enough to sustain a following hand.

At about the same time, horse shows started to change, as well. The outside course of solid obstacles on (gasp) grass began to disappear, hunter courses became composed of predictable related distances instead of individual fences ridden at a gallop, fences shrank dramatically, and the point of the holding a show seemed to become how many horses can we get around the same three foot course in a day. These are among the many factors contributing to the evolution of the "death wish" position. I'm afraid it is largely due to the "dumbing down" of the task at hand. It certainly isn't very Darwinian. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Sleepy
Feb. 12, 2003, 10:55 AM
I think this IS a 90's thing. We certainly weren't doing this in 1988 when I stopped showing. My old trainer would have shot me. Or at the very least, refused to be seen with me.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

Sebastian
Feb. 12, 2003, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by baymare:
Oy. This will probably get me in a lot of trouble.

I think it started with the advent of the crest release. All of a sudden, riders had the opportunity to discover how much easier it was to lean on the horses neck instead of developing a position that was solid enough to sustain a following hand.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree...

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Velvet
Feb. 12, 2003, 11:52 AM
So, would a saddle with a slightly deeper seat and more of a knee roll help? Eventers ride with saddles like that.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Sleepy
Feb. 12, 2003, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So, would a saddle with a slightly deeper seat and more of a knee roll help? Eventers ride with saddles like that <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm, no. See above post. These poufy saddles, rather than the flat saddles we used to use, may well be part of the problem. They certainly seem to seat you in a different position.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

jackson
Feb. 12, 2003, 12:14 PM
Yes that is another factor, these lazy-boy saddles there are now. I cannot stand them. Pessoa paved the way I think. Others followed and made a mess of modern "not-so-flat" saddles. I will not ride in anything that has a cushy flap or brick wall blocks. I can't! My long leg does not like boundaries. I first learned to ride in a Stubben Seigfreid and OMG I am horrified at the pics of me then! I have an almost 15 year old Hampton with the blocks taken out and the suede flap never was padded. The seat could use some padding though. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lol No too good for trail rides.

Most premature departures are pilot error.

Velvet
Feb. 12, 2003, 12:25 PM
What did the Siegfried do to you? I always thought they were good for long legs. The seat was like concrete for the rider, but they did have room for your leg. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Velvet
Feb. 12, 2003, 02:26 PM
Oh! So THAT's why Michael Plumb always rode like that. I did wonder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

2ndyrgal
Feb. 12, 2003, 03:50 PM
Where is George Morris when we need him? For the answer to the original question, see any PH from the last however many years. (Sorry COTH) Go to his Jumping Clinic. Read. Repeat.

RugBug
Feb. 12, 2003, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jackson:
Yes that is another factor, these lazy-boy saddles there are now. I cannot stand them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heehee. I can't stand 'em either. At my barn, I get weird looks and tons of comments on how flat my saddle is...no knee rolls, nothing. just flat. Comments to the effect of "I would fall out of that thing if I tried to jump in it. There's no support." blah, blah, blah. I absolutely love it and ride like a banshee in anything else.

Hey, that's what we all rode in back in my day. My saddle, and I, came out of mothballs just fine....

But unfortunately, I still have to fight a tendency to lay on my horses neck.

baymare
Feb. 12, 2003, 07:31 PM
Some of the loveliest "old style" equitation pics from the sixties and early seventies, demonstrating correct base of support and flawless following hand were when Stubbens were standard equipment.

And, as Velvet so astutely pointed out, it is the hunter riders who commit these crimes against nature, not the jumper riders. They manage to maintain a much sounder position over much larger obstacles using, I am sure, basically the same style of saddle as the offenders.

Jane
Feb. 12, 2003, 08:44 PM
Dear Velvet:

What's with all these questions about hunters? Are you ready to come out of the closet?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I loathe being annoyed. It makes me feel angry and malicious" -- Lestat de Lioncourt

creseida
Feb. 12, 2003, 10:28 PM
I personally don't think it has anything to do with the jump effort or bascule. I know when I've gotten in *really* deep to a jump, and a horse has had to make a big effort to get around and over it, it doesn't change anything about how I ride the fence. I still allow the horse to close the angles (hip and knee). The harder he pushes upward, the "more closed" the angles become. Thing of a spring; the more pressure you exert, the "more closed" the angles of the coils become.

There have been times that I have felt like a bug squashed up on top of the horse. Not because I've lain across his neck, but because the horse pushed UP so hard that I literally have hit my breastbone on the pommel. My angles closed all the way. But my leg was under me, and my position over the horse's centre of gravity did not change. But I definitely "bottomed out", as in my angles could close no further. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

See attached diagram. 3 different jumping efforts, each with successively more thrust (or uplift) generated by the horse. The rider's position does not change in relation to the horse except that the angles (hip and knee) become tighter.

That is how it *should* be.

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
~Member of the *Horse Vans Rock* clique~

Velvet
Feb. 13, 2003, 08:01 AM
That kind of begs one of the other questions posited out here about the type of horse being used (his natural style) or placement of the horse at the fence creating this type of bascule. Was it the chicken or the egg that came first? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(Jane, I've been thinking about puttering in the hunters to have a different bit of fun with my horse, but not if it costs more than dressage--and eventing!)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

GreystoneKC
Feb. 13, 2003, 08:37 AM
Ok multiple response here, haven't been around... Sorry so long!

As for the "hunter" horses of today and the "hunting" horses of yesteryear... Coming my humble little self, it's very hard to compare the two now. Times have changed. The jumps have changed (is there such a thing as a verticle anymore?), the horses have changed (slower, WBy, big bascules), the riders have changed (case and point - what IS this new style?)... For better or for worse? I don't know, I wasn't even ALIVE back then. But what I know is that when I go to Devon and sit and practice judge (I want to eventually become a judge) I like a lot of what I see. I LIKE the horses who put out a HUGE jumping effort, I like them round, and I like them to explode off the base. Although I will also say I like a little more gallopy horse...none of that crawling crap...go...go get to that jump and show me your best effort. Don't crawl up to it like you look like you're going to die before you get there...

Ok enough with that rant... back to eq. Personally, I am not in love with the eq pic of the girl on the grey horse. I think there are probably some pretty good basics there, but it needs work. While the heel is down I think that leg is slid back, pinched at the knee (look at the way the saddle flap is up), and twisted out, and not offering as much support as it could. She is jumping slightly ahead and leaning down against the horse's neck, with a almost floaty crest release. I like her back and eyes though, a lot. If I might get technical, it looks like this might have been a little tight of a distance also, and now her horse is coming out of his jump a little early (landing in a pile) with low knees...all a possible sign that jumping ahead didn't help to make this jump look better or *hide* the miss at all. Like I said, she's sure not bad, and it's prolly a hunter class in which this poor girl prolly wasn't even thinking about her eq, but still, to be *good* eq, it needs work. Anyone agree, disagree?

Yes Velvet, much of the time problems with too long stirrups arrive because the rider jumps ahead to keep up with the horse and thus get ahead with their upper body and leave their legs trailing out behind them.

Baymare, you seem extremely knowledgeable and I greatly enjoy reading your posts as you seem to have "been there". As a 24yo fledgling professional, I appreciate the info. I must say though, part of the point is..."hunters" just aren't hunters anymore...

Does anyone else think "floating" crest releases are annoying??? I mean, even I'm a culprit once in a while, but for the most part, why can't anyone use a REAL crest release with hands down on the side of the crest (with a slightly broken line from bit to elbow) or a auto release (with a straight line)???

As for saddles, I wouldn't give up my old Pessoa (with knee rolls, thank you) for anything! My short little legs need it! But hey, maybe thats why I like to assume the "death wish" position! I think though that there might be something to the flat seat/deep seat arguement? I mean, why do all the big eq riders get flat seat, no knee roll saddles? But when it comes down to it, I think a good rider can *ride* in any saddle, they just might be more comfortable in one type.

Cresaida: excellent point with your diagram.

In the swiftness of my darkness I whisper to thunder. I am patient as stone, as wild as lightening - the very symbol of surging potency, and the power of movement...
*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*
Proud member of the artists clique