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sonomacounty
Jun. 19, 2012, 08:16 PM
QH sales catalog & N/H (HYPP) horses.

I just got a sales catalog and am surprised about a few things in it.

Realize that I'm new to QHs and if the answers are obvious, forgive me.

In it, some N/H broodmares were repeatedly bred to N/H stallion?

Why keep a horse whole who is N/H and then why stand them at stud? People really book mares to N/H horses?

HYPP sounds pretty bad. I wouldn't want to chance it.

Again, I'm new to QHs and I don't understand the thinking behind this. Please explain, thanks.

RRD
Jun. 20, 2012, 08:28 AM
OOOYYYY Ok, In the QH and Paint horse industry Impressive bred horses still dominate the Halter horse show ring so that is why you still see so many N/H horses still being bred is because they win. As a lover of the breed(s) I don't agree with that thinking because I feel it compromises the intergrity of the breed as whole and with genetic testing available now there really is no need to continue to breed N/H horses. So IMO don't go there......:no: That being said my mare is Impressive bred and she is N/N, she is the most beautiful looking level headed, sure footed, beautiful moving horse I have ever had the pleasure of owning. :yes:

Bluey
Jun. 20, 2012, 08:39 AM
QH sales catalog & N/H (HYPP) horses.

I just got a sales catalog and am surprised about a few things in it.

Realize that I'm new to QHs and if the answers are obvious, forgive me.

In it, some N/H broodmares were repeatedly bred to N/H stallion?

Why keep a horse whole who is N/H and then why stand them at stud? People really book mares to N/H horses?

HYPP sounds pretty bad. I wouldn't want to chance it.

Again, I'm new to QHs and I don't understand the thinking behind this. Please explain, thanks.

Everyone is so ethical, in their own eyes, until tried.
Easy to talk on a high horse when it is not you who has to make the decisions.

If as a breeder you have an N/H horse that is in your eyes perfect otherwise, there are some that will excuse themselves from a slip in breeder ethics for the love of that horse's almost perfectness.

Sorry, ethics, like being pregnant, you either are or are not.

Anyone breeding any other than N/N is flat unethical in any book.:dead:

OveroHunter
Jun. 20, 2012, 09:08 AM
Anyone breeding any other than N/N is flat unethical in any book.:dead:

This.


What's really sad is that you don't need a HYPP positive (N/H or H/H) horse to do well in halter. Our stallion is a 2 time APHA Reserve World Champion, 1 time APHA World Champion, and is the #7 leading point earning stallion in the APHA and he doesn't have an ounce of Impressive blood in him. People just need to breed good horses and raise and train them right.

ETA: I just wanted to add that I am a fan of Impressive bred horses that are HYPP N/N. There are some people who will mark a horse down if they have any Impressive blood, regardless of whether or not they have HYPP. I show in the over fences classes with a halter/Impressive bred gelding that doesn't have much performance blood in him, but he has the best mind and tries harder than any horse I know and because of that he does very well despite his beefy size :)

SuckerForHorses
Jun. 20, 2012, 09:31 AM
Didn't AQHA change a rule so that horses that tested HYPP H/H and N/H were not registerable? Or am I thinking of something else entirely?

RRD
Jun. 20, 2012, 09:35 AM
ETA: I just wanted to add that I am a fan of Impressive bred horses that are HYPP N/N. There are some people who will mark a horse down if they have any Impressive blood, regardless of whether or not they have HYPP. I show in the over fences classes with a halter/Impressive bred gelding that doesn't have much performance blood in him, but he has the best mind and tries harder than any horse I know and because of that he does very well despite his beefy size


;)

My mare is actually smaller (15h 1017lb) even though her sire was a pretty big boy(he was a Overohunter;)). Her Dam was bred by the Simmelinks that bred Barlink Macho Man and they used primarily Leo useing bred horses in there breeding program.
Works for me as I prefer a 15h horse, but same great mind and try, very willing and versatlile.

SuckerForHorses
Jun. 20, 2012, 09:36 AM
From the rulebook:

Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007, all descendants of the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number 0767246, shall be required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested, subject to the conditions in (c)(2) above. Any foal testing homozygous positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration with AQHA.

threedogpack
Jun. 20, 2012, 09:38 AM
Anyone breeding any other than N/N is flat unethical in any book.:dead:

X2.

there are plenty of N/N studs who have done very, very well in Halter (A Classical Mister is one). There must be a market for the N/H horses though, or people would quit breeding them.

trubandloki
Jun. 20, 2012, 09:41 AM
Anyone breeding any other than N/N is flat unethical in any book.:dead:
This.

OveroHunter
Jun. 20, 2012, 10:03 AM
From the rulebook:

Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007, all descendants of the stallion Impressive, AQHA registration number 0767246, shall be required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested, subject to the conditions in (c)(2) above. Any foal testing homozygous positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration with AQHA.

Aren't they planning on phasing out N/H registration in the future as well? I don't remember the specifics, but I thought that was the case.

Bluey
Jun. 20, 2012, 10:15 AM
Aren't they planning on phasing out N/H registration in the future as well? I don't remember the specifics, but I thought that was the case.

I thought so, about 2012 or13 or so, but have not heard anything else about that for a year now.
May not have been implemented.
To deny registration to any offspring from two duly registered parents is a legal nightmare, many hoops to jump thru to do it right.
There is right now a lawsuit filed against the no clone registrations.

Look at breeding with the splash gene and deafness.
Sure, some say a deaf horse is still ok, but why breed ANY kind of unsoundness?
Why bred parrot mouth, sure, you can feed the horse all it's life and a few great race horses were parrot mouth, but why not do as breeders should do, bred the best to the best, not compromise?
There are many horses without genetic faults, we don't need any one special line being bred from those that have faults.
We gamble every time we breed, lets stack the odds in the offspring's favor.

Then those are more complicated questions than just saying "do what is right", because there are also the rights of the breeders to consider, even if they are rationally wrong.
That is why the lawsuits, to prove who is right and up to now, the AQHA has lost against the rights of owners.
Remember Malvin Hatley white rule, that the AQHA lost at a great financial cost to them?:no:

7HL
Jun. 20, 2012, 10:28 AM
If anyone has ever watched a horse go through the seizures, there wouldn't be any question.

I watched a woman who adopted a horse from a rescue told by the rescue she could put the horse down. They also didn't want to take the horse back because of the ongoing costs associated with care.

The issue with HYPP could have been settled years ago. It really boiled down to money. Some not wanting to take the financial loss.




There must be a market for the N/H horses though


The only market should be meat.

sonomacounty
Jun. 20, 2012, 10:29 AM
Thanks for explaining, all.

What are some of the characteristics (temperament & appearance) of Impressive line horses, if you would, please?

RRD
Jun. 20, 2012, 10:41 AM
I already went over my mares temperament but here is what she looks like and she does have the Impressive "look"....but like I said she is not a great big horse, and I would say the majority of Impressive bred horses are.

http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy134/rodeoratdogs/P1110382.jpg

http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy134/rodeoratdogs/P1110399.jpg

http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy134/rodeoratdogs/BDB%20FASHION%20DESIGN/P1110455.jpg

http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy134/rodeoratdogs/040-4.jpg


http://i785.photobucket.com/albums/yy134/rodeoratdogs/007-11.jpg

OveroHunter
Jun. 20, 2012, 11:05 AM
Gorgeous horse RRD!

My Impressive bred N/N gelding has the best personality and temperment of any horse I have ever come across. He is the definition of an all arounder. He learns easily and is up for everything.

He is heavily halter bred, which I hate for him. I really think people need to stop breeding for freakish size because now at 8 years old, he is built downhill and is super bulky which keeps him from being very athletic. Luckily he doesn't seem to know this about himself and tries his heart out anyway ;)

Here are some pics of him:
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2384656880043029495eEMRiV
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2123959240043029495jIgHUQ
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2785740430043029495slWbBI
http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2785124360043029495lrTBFo
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10100893411004030.3025619.4923850&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=10100893417426160&set=a.10100893411004030.3025619.4923850&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10100893411004030.3025619.4923850&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=10100893418648710&set=a.10100893411004030.3025619.4923850&type=3&theater
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10100252101483450.2906417.4923850&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=10100252103604200&set=a.10100252101483450.2906417.4923850&type=3&theater

RRD
Jun. 20, 2012, 11:10 AM
He is the definition of an all arounder AMEN! liking it....love your bareback pics and return your compliment of Gorgeousness ;), what is his complete pedigree? if you don't mind me asking....

spotsinabox
Jun. 20, 2012, 12:51 PM
I use to run the other way from the Impressive horses ..but I will admit one of the nicest outside mares we bred was line-bred Impressive. A daughter of Coosa, her foals have been great riders as well as being pretty. She is N/N.

I know there are people who are comfortable with N/H ..but I don't think it's worth the risk. Even if they don't have symptons, it's just a time bomb waiting to go off.

I would love to see more judges reward 'normal' horses in halter... after all, it's suppose to define the breed.

SuckerForHorses
Jun. 20, 2012, 01:11 PM
I would love to see more judges reward 'normal' horses in halter... after all, it's suppose to define the breed.

I too get annoyed when model classes are supposed to be judged based on the best representation of the breed characteristics, and these hunks with teacup feet and so much muscle they can barely get out of their own way are the ones who place. The QH originated as an athletic working breed...those horses aren't good for anything except to look at (and I don't even think they're good for that! Give me a well built, athletic horse any day!)

[No offense to those who have the halter bred horses, I have seen some that I do like, but I don't find them to be a great representation of the QH breed for which it was originally intended...an athletic worker. Model classes should look for that, not mass muscle and tiny feet.]

spotsinabox
Jun. 20, 2012, 01:24 PM
Unfortunately, I think there is just too much specialization in several events ... going to the 'extreme' has ruined many gene pools.

I know the judges can only judge what is in the class ...but I think if more would take a stand against some of the excessive examples, it would help ... instead of making another class like 'performance halter' ...

RRD
Jun. 20, 2012, 01:43 PM
A daughter of Coosa, her foals have been great riders as well as being pretty. She is N/N.


Agree, Coosa is who my mare gos back to and he is N/N.


Unfortunately, I think there is just too much specialization in several events ... going to the 'extreme' has ruined many gene pools.


Agree, I miss the Supreme Champion days.....

Plainandtall
Jun. 20, 2012, 02:39 PM
Sonoma- I don't know squat about QH's... I've know a few in my years and I like the a lot but other than having a friend who bred a mare once and had AQHA publications on her coffeetable- that's the extent of it. I remember having seen some HYPP info listed in stallion ads and didn't think much of it, just knew it was some sort of vague genetic muscle thing. Fast forward a decade and I happened across some HYPP article online and spent a few hours surfing, watching youtube, reading testimonies etc. Still not any sort of authority on the issue- just got my morbid curiosity tweaked...and my hackles up about the AQHA NOT taking steps to erradicate it- rather- rewarding and perpetuating the cycle.

I posted about it here recently, but shortly after that day surfing- I happened to witness what I think may have been a HYPP attack in a 3 year old horse in a remote pasture. (I stayed with it till the owner arrived) In the end I think the horse was euthed and I will never know if indeed it was HYPP- but it was nothing to shrug off. The horse was an unpapered QH who (allegedly) was not Impressive bred... except without papers we can't know that- and if the horse was indeed Impressive bred and HYPP+ it would make sense how such a beautiful horse could wind up without papers.

All this Rita Crundwell press opened my eyes to the fact that they are doing embryo transfers in QH mares... nieave me though that was just something they did with rare breed horses like Gypsy Vanners- where the supply couldn't possibly meet the demand. This mare Pizazzy Lady apparently has 4 2011 foals. When I look at this picture (and sure it doesn't help that the legs are cropped off) I see something that looks more like a walrus than a horse. Flame away, that's what I see. Apparently my uneducated eyes don't know fantastic horseflesh when I see because she's a champion. I'm a lover of draft horses, so I actually love big and chunky... but this just makes me shake my head... it's like some cattlemen got their bovine beef breeding goals superimposed on their stock horses...
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/18/11265755-citys-finance-chief-accused-of-looting-30-million-lifestyle-included-21-million-motorhome?lite

Here is another "shake my head" angle on a horse who looks like floundering around poolside and balancing a ball on it's nose might be a better vocation than ...than... what is it again that QH's are supposed to be good for? I forget.

The page top banner.
http://www.ritacrundwell.com/

HYPP is a DOMINANT gene... I don't see the point of banning H/H horses from registry and allowing N/H horses to breed. 50/50 is UNACCEPTABLE. it's irresponsible and it has the potential of polluting the grade horse population with this defective dangerous tragic geneitic trait. Thanks a lot AQHA. Although they only care about the money of transferring papers and registering and all their incentive funds etc... the effect that their policy has had on me, avg. Jane horseperson who could care less about papers and only cares about safety, sanity and soundness... is to consider every "good deal" Quarterhorse out there as "I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole without a DNA test" Nice way to promote your breed AQHA.

Bluey
Jun. 20, 2012, 04:07 PM
Sonoma- I don't know squat about QH's... I've know a few in my years and I like the a lot but other than having a friend who bred a mare once and had AQHA publications on her coffeetable- that's the extent of it. I remember having seen some HYPP info listed in stallion ads and didn't think much of it, just knew it was some sort of vague genetic muscle thing. Fast forward a decade and I happened across some HYPP article online and spent a few hours surfing, watching youtube, reading testimonies etc. Still not any sort of authority on the issue- just got my morbid curiosity tweaked...and my hackles up about the AQHA NOT taking steps to erradicate it- rather- rewarding and perpetuating the cycle.

I posted about it here recently, but shortly after that day surfing- I happened to witness what I think may have been a HYPP attack in a 3 year old horse in a remote pasture. (I stayed with it till the owner arrived) In the end I think the horse was euthed and I will never know if indeed it was HYPP- but it was nothing to shrug off. The horse was an unpapered QH who (allegedly) was not Impressive bred... except without papers we can't know that- and if the horse was indeed Impressive bred and HYPP+ it would make sense how such a beautiful horse could wind up without papers.

All this Rita Crundwell press opened my eyes to the fact that they are doing embryo transfers in QH mares... nieave me though that was just something they did with rare breed horses like Gypsy Vanners- where the supply couldn't possibly meet the demand. This mare Pizazzy Lady apparently has 4 2011 foals. When I look at this picture (and sure it doesn't help that the legs are cropped off) I see something that looks more like a walrus than a horse. Flame away, that's what I see. Apparently my uneducated eyes don't know fantastic horseflesh when I see because she's a champion. I'm a lover of draft horses, so I actually love big and chunky... but this just makes me shake my head... it's like some cattlemen got their bovine beef breeding goals superimposed on their stock horses...
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/18/11265755-citys-finance-chief-accused-of-looting-30-million-lifestyle-included-21-million-motorhome?lite

Here is another "shake my head" angle on a horse who looks like floundering around poolside and balancing a ball on it's nose might be a better vocation than ...than... what is it again that QH's are supposed to be good for? I forget.

The page top banner.
http://www.ritacrundwell.com/

HYPP is a DOMINANT gene... I don't see the point of banning H/H horses from registry and allowing N/H horses to breed. 50/50 is UNACCEPTABLE. it's irresponsible and it has the potential of polluting the grade horse population with this defective dangerous tragic geneitic trait. Thanks a lot AQHA. Although they only care about the money of transferring papers and registering and all their incentive funds etc... the effect that their policy has had on me, avg. Jane horseperson who could care less about papers and only cares about safety, sanity and soundness... is to consider every "good deal" Quarterhorse out there as "I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole without a DNA test" Nice way to promote your breed AQHA.

You have been missing class, I see.:no:
All the ranting at the AQHA is for naught, as you would understand if you had read previous post explaining why any registry has to abide by certain laws.

The ranting should be for those that are breeding any other than N/N and those that are buying their N/H horses.

If all would quit them, if there was not a market for them, people would quit breeding them.

The AQHA is already doing all they can, legally, right now will have to fight in court to try to keep clones out of the registry.
I expect that, after spending some more millions defending their position, they will again lose.:(

Plainandtall
Jun. 21, 2012, 08:09 AM
Yeah... Sorry Bluey- I can't argue with you on this because as you noted- I haven't been to class- and besides, I think we are in agreement on most of it. I just won't be quite as accepting of the idea that this is the fault, or responsibility of the public who is buying and breeding horses who are winning at AQHA sanctioned shows with AQHA registered horses carrying a defective gene.

Also, my concern is not so much for the QH people who knowingly take the risk with this genetic mix for their own purposes, but for the innocent public who don't know HYPP from a hole in the ground who are endangerd, burdened and heartbroken by the disease they unknowingly got involved with. Even refusing registry and disassociating themselves from the problems they created does nothing to remedy the problem of these horses in America's horsemarket although it does immediatly remove the golden incentive from purposly breeding more.

I think that the APHA is a fine example of the fact that the AQHA has every right to deny registration to an animal of clear AQHA parentage- if an extra inch of stocking on a leg is reason for exclusion- why not a genetic defect? Sure the breed standard against excessive white goes back as far as the eye can see...(and I understand it's been relaxed- which isn't exactly "fair" to all the people/horses who have been denied over the years is it?) but this genetic defect was not even discovered until relatively recently. When faced with a new situation, you certainly can (must!) change the rules to address it. I don't think that the breed standard was designed to accomidate and protect the bloodlines of horses who had the potential to collapse in paralytic fits.

Bluey
Jun. 21, 2012, 09:04 AM
Yeah... Sorry Bluey- I can't argue with you on this because as you noted- I haven't been to class- and besides, I think we are in agreement on most of it. I just won't be quite as accepting of the idea that this is the fault, or responsibility of the public who is buying and breeding horses who are winning at AQHA sanctioned shows with AQHA registered horses carrying a defective gene.

Also, my concern is not so much for the QH people who knowingly take the risk with this genetic mix for their own purposes, but for the innocent public who don't know HYPP from a hole in the ground who are endangerd, burdened and heartbroken by the disease they unknowingly got involved with. Even refusing registry and disassociating themselves from the problems they created does nothing to remedy the problem of these horses in America's horsemarket although it does immediatly remove the golden incentive from purposly breeding more.

I think that the APHA is a fine example of the fact that the AQHA has every right to deny registration to an animal of clear AQHA parentage- if an extra inch of stocking on a leg is reason for exclusion- why not a genetic defect? Sure the breed standard against excessive white goes back as far as the eye can see...(and I understand it's been relaxed- which isn't exactly "fair" to all the people/horses who have been denied over the years is it?) but this genetic defect was not even discovered until relatively recently. When faced with a new situation, you certainly can (must!) change the rules to address it. I don't think that the breed standard was designed to accomidate and protect the bloodlines of horses who had the potential to collapse in paralytic fits.

I think you are still missing the important point here, that we all work under certain laws and those, as the several suits have shown registries of any kind, take precedent over what makes sense.

A registry can't change the rules without jumping thru very serious legal hoops.
That kept the AQHA from doing any more than they did, pay for the studies that helped find the gene and a test for HYPP, get the word out and follow the slow legal process to try to stop any other than N/N from being subject to registration.

Once you understand that, you can see that your demands are just not addressing the right subject, the clearly unethical breeders that still use any other than N/N and those that knowingly buy their offspring.

sonomacounty
Jun. 22, 2012, 08:07 PM
Just getting back to this thread. Busy, busy week.

Overo Hunter - he seem like such a good guy ! I really love him in the jumping picture & you both look pretty fancy in the show picture.

OveroHunter
Jun. 25, 2012, 09:49 AM
Overo Hunter - he seem like such a good guy ! I really love him in the jumping picture & you both look pretty fancy in the show picture.

Thanks! RH is a testament to the breed and I wouldn't trade him for anything :)